PTSD, defeat and the victim identity
When I was a med student, I studied animal models for human stress and depression. The best animal model of what a psychopath does to others is that of the rodent resident-intruder paradigm. In this model, males are introduced into the home territory of other males, they experience social defeat and are removed before they are injured. Repeated exposure to this situation produces a defeated animal who is chronically submissive and gives up without a fight whenever he encounters other males. Below is the posture of a defeated mouse.
The physiology of this defeated rodent resembles human depression very closely. The defeat state can be reversed with antidepressants. Defeat is associated with elevated stress hormones, immune dysfunction and learned helplessness.
I think it is important to know that the potential to develop the defeat mentality exists within us. In humans this mentality takes on a more sophisticated form. When defeated many people become enveloped by what I call “the victim identity.”
Identity or self concept means how you think about yourself and how you think others perceive you. Identity and self concept always includes some component of how dominant or socially potent we consider ourselves to be. Social status is another related part of the self concept.
An encounter with a sociopath/psychopath often leaves a person defeated in every sphere of life. The status, reputation, career, finances that took a lifetime to build vanish. The victim is left in limbo, not knowing how to put the pieces together.
It is in this limbo that the victim identity develops. A person who used to be financially well off and productive having lost everything now adjusts to that loss by defining him/herself as “victim”. This victim identity is further supported by the constant pain and anxiety the person feels. Why do I hurt? Why have I lost? Why am I defeated? I experience all these things because I am a victim.
The minute I say, “I am a victim.” That word victim becomes part of my self definition. There is a certain comfort in the victim identity. It helps a person explain and cope with their external reality and internal symptoms.
The danger in the victim identity is that it will come to be the totality of a person’s self-definition. Once this happens, the victim stops living, and is like the defeated mouse, assuming the posture at every challenge.
I challenge you today to consider the place your identity as a victim has in terms of your total self-definition. Is the trauma the first thing you think of when you think of yourself? Are you being fair to yourself when you identify with your victim status? Perhaps you have a good deal more living to do than your victim identity will allow?
It is important to be whole. That means the part of you who is/was a victim gets integrated with the other parts. “Victim” has to become just a piece of the puzzle that is you.
I confess that I am aware of my victim identity most in the company I choose to keep. I feel most comfortable relating to other people who understand psychopaths and what they do. If that also describes you realize that is a sign of victim identity. It is important to acknowledge these tendencies and balance them by having friends who are not victims or family members of psychopaths/sociopaths.
It is especially important to spend time with functional families/couples who love and care for each other.
Try never to take pride in your status as a victim or use it as an excuse for dysfunction. If you experience symptoms of PTSD, that is a challenge to overcome not a curse you are condemned to live with.
Ask yourself today if you really want to be like that poor defeated mouse.
For another opinion and further discussion of the victim identity see The Line between Victims and Abusers (although I do not agree with all Dr. Stosny says here).
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
Donna Andersen says:
Liane,
This is fascinating. I think it helps explain the experiences of many Lovefraud readers, especially those who experience domestic violence.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 1:46pm
Jen2008 says:
I think so, too, Donna. Great article and link Liane. I know for me I went through a period of really feel beaten down and fearful of everybody and everything and questionning everyone’s actions and motives–even decent people who obviously had no unlterior motives. I’m much better about that now, but still have a “problem” with trusting men and my own judgement when it comes to the idea of dating, but I can also see progress in my attitudes towards that. Sandra Brown had advised me not to date for two years, to give myself that time as recovery time and I feel that was some of the best advice I’ve ever been given. Since I’m not dating, not only am I not unloading my own baggage on some poor guy who may be a great guy, but the time has enabled me to find out all sorts of things about myself, and to develop alot of hobbies and interests and basically learn to be alone and not feel like I “need” someone else to make me happy or entertainment and I enjoy that.
Another thing I feel very fortunate in is that I made a great choice in the neighborhood I moved into. I’ve previously lived in nice neighbohoods, but never one as down home and “Mom, apple pie, and hospitable” as this one. It is a very family oriented neighborhood where Dad’s and Mom’s walk or bike in the evenings with their kids and Dad’s are out in the yards playing basketball or pitch with their children–things like that. And everyone knows everyone else and people stop by and sit on the porch to chat, and everybody pitches in to help someone if there is a problem. And almost everybody has a couple of cats or a dog. After a few years being surrounded by constant chaos, people who boozed and drugged it up and had such nasty attitudes etc., being exposed to people who are so direct opposite is like a breath of fresh air.
I especially liked when you said: “Try never to take pride in your status as a victim or use it as an excuse for dysfunction.” Of course everyone goes through a really raw period and has their own struggles towards healing. Although I understand trying to recover what you lost and also taking action to protect yourself, I do find it disturbing when people use their victim status to justify harming someone else.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 2:20pm
holywatersalt says:
I’d like to add PTSD can be reduced/treated by talk therapy, prayer and learning about the abuser and their implements of abuse. I use/used bibliotherapy- I read about psychopaths and in turn have studied what in me makes me prey. I blogged on that here:
http://holywatersalt.blogspot......-life.html
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 2:57pm
Jen2008 says:
Also that pic of that poor little rat reminds me of how my own little dog looked and acted by the time we got away from my ex. Animals really are very feeling and I think she was also traumatically bonded to him because she never knew what to expect–one minute yells and screams at her, the next he would be offering her treats. She became extremely paranoid, hiding from him when he’d call her, then when the treats would come out she’d get all happy and bouncy and go to him, then the nastiness would come out and she’d start to shake and hide again. I really hate my choices put her through that. Now I do pay close attention to how a person treats an animal. If I see unkindness there, I don’t want them in my life.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 3:05pm
libelle says:
Dear Dr Leedom, thank you so much for this very interesting article! When I was a little kid I really felt being “put” around by magic hands and set into unbearable situations and then whoosh put into another situation before something REALLY BAD would happen, like the mouse in the example. It was always for “my best” or “to help for the best” for mum, my brother, my sister, the family etc., and it all confused me tremendously. I did not know that there is an animal model to mimic my upbringing
But NOW I am having choices, I can leave ANY cage I do not like!
I reconnected just this year with my first friend ever. We met when we both were 5 years old, and got separated very abruptly when my parents decided to put me into another school in the mountains at age 6 to “help” mother recover from a difficult birth when she had my brother, as mountain air is good for recovery, as I was told, to bring a little sacrifice for the good of the family, my brother and my mother; and by the way the parents had great fun doing lots of winter sports while my sister and I were struggling with a completely different school system, another language and new kids and the like. My friend back then found another “Best friend”, and I was left out alone and miserable when my parents after a couple of months decided to return to our hometown.
Now my friend is just marvelous, we are both very glad we could find the way back to each other’s heart, and she is wonderful with her kindness, understanding. She is living herself in a marriage that lasts now for 30 years that everybody thought to be a failure from day one (especially my hypocrit mother). She got married when she was 18 years old, got her two children within a year, and she married a shift worker who has been living his teen age years under the bridges, with an alcoholic father. They managed their lives and everything just fine, they are very interesting, loving, caring people, their children are a great joy, and I am very lucky having such wonderful friends, both very validating and putting a very healthy perspective in my life in the aftermath of the X.
I can also relate to the “victim’s entitlement”, and also the link you gave (why on earth the perpetrators in my life could have brillant arguments being ALWAYS the VICTIMS themselves and having THE perfect victim’s vocabulary; for one most of them are lawyers…).
Thank you so much, LF is really a safe haven with lots of great people gathered, to think and read and vent, and it is a really wonderful mirror to see oneself and it helps to get all the tools to help oneself to find the door out of the cage, to recharge the batteries again and to be able to step out of this door and enjoy life again. Namaste and towanda!
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 3:31pm
Tilly says:
My shrink used to call this “catastrophising” He would say, “You must stop catastrophising!”. This was when I was involuntarily placed in a psychiatric unit for paranoia when the P solicitor stole everything through with my inheritance and my home and had me charged! He is still doing it today to others.
I didn’t say anything to the shrink because it was true… I WAS made POWERLESS! AND YES I WAS A VICTIM!!! I had to pretend everything the shrinks said was right to be able to get out of the place! It doesn’t take long to work that out..ask ANY patient in there!! I felt like a mac truck had hit me and I was still on the side of the road nearly dead and they were all saying, “pretend nothing happened and you are just fine and then we will let you leave the side of the road “. So I did, and I got out..like all the rest.
IT TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES!! i.e. to get over repeated trauma at the hands of psychopaths. Do NOT add guilt and shame that you are being “a victim” to the list.
It took me until 54 yrs old to meet Oxy and Rosa and Rune and Witsend and all my fellow survivors to get past the RAGE and loss I had inside me. We human “victims” are NOT left without ENORMOUS anger and defence. WE ARE NOT LIKE A PSYCHOPATHIC RAT!!!!! Our recovery it is still unfolding and all in Gods time..not mine and not anyone elseses.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 5:00pm
Tilly says:
P.S> And we “victims” do not eat each other like rats do.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 5:01pm
Rune says:
Tilly: If I invite you for dinner, you can be sure that YOU are not the main course. No, you won’t be “on the menu”!
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 5:05pm
Rune says:
Dr. Leedom: Paradoxically, I’m encouraged by your article. Thank you for letting me know that when I feel like that beaten-down mouse in the picture, it’s not just my lack of character that some days makes it hard for me to “suck it up and get back in the game.”
You said, “An encounter with a sociopath/psychopath often leaves a person defeated in every sphere of life. The status, reputation, career, finances that took a lifetime to build vanish. The victim is left in limbo, not knowing how to put the pieces together.”
I have not only been through all that, but the whole arena I worked in for 10 years has vanished as the economy has changed. I feel like every time I try to re-establish some small toe-hold, I get smacked down again.
Of course, us survivor types think we should beat ourselves up some more for not having the strength, or courage, or whatever, to triumph.
Maybe I should lay off on the “beating myself up,” and try for a few small success experiences to get that slump out of my shoulders and start developing some grounded optimism.
Has anyone researched with those defeated mice to see what gets them encouraged again? Somehow I’m not thinking it’s “talk therapy.”
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 7:10pm
learnthelesson says:
Rune,
You said
“Of course, us survivor types think we should beat ourselves up some more for not having the strength, or courage, or whatever, to triumph”.
I am still learning about this part of the healing process. When Justabouthealed commented that we shouldnt place blame or guilt upon ourselves…but just continue on with our lives, dont devote time to picking apart what happened, etc.
In certain relationships I have been able to do that. But this relationship with my extox — I was not able to. I just want to express that I think its learning and growth when we challenge ourselves (not beating ourselves up) or when we can say, hey I was weak or I lacked self-respect , or self-trust…think JAH refers to it as self-protection….whatever we call it I never once went inward with reflection with a sense of guilt or blame…it was with a sense of learning and growing…and that it was okay to take the focus off of him and POSITIVELY help myself triumph through finding more of my core strength and courage to not ever allow myself to be that beaten-down mouse again…
I wonder if there were any mice who stopped and changed direction when placed in the home territory of more dominant male mice. The article says the mice were “removed” before they were injured…but I wonder how many , if given the choice to not to be forced into the rodent-resident intruder paradigm study….who might have never chose to place themself in that situation over and over and over again…until beaten down to depression….etc… Because there are some humans who do not ever end up as the victim-type or in situations like ours… they made different choices as soon as they were aware of the red flags…
Those mice in the study didnt have a choice….the difference is we do!
I imagine if the mice voluntarily chose to be in that situation -part of what would encourage them in the aftermath – would have to be the process of acknowledging without guilt or blame or beating themselves up….the choices they repeatedly made…so as to learn and grow and inspire change ahead and different choices going forward for themselves…But matter of fact…I didnt have the tools or awareness to REMOVE MYSELF…STOP. CHANGE DIRECTION….that choice was always there for us (not the mice in the study – they had to partake in the study) but we didnt know what we know now…does that mean we are beating ourselves up or learning and growing by admission and understanding of ourselves and all we can now be….
I could care less who he is and why he does what he does NOW…but for me, until the focus became about what can I learn from my experience, my choices, my lack of knowledge of choice and protection…until I reflected ON MYSELF AND MAKING FUTURE CHOICES FOR THE BETTER IN A POSITIVE AND HONEST WAY….I couldnt get off of that toxic wheel….
I had to learn new additional strengths and courage within…more self-respect, self-protection and the abiiity to be honest and real about any relationship Im in…and I had to learn that I could stop and change direction..anytime I want to chose to for my health and safety.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 8:04pm
justabouthealed says:
I really agree with the points made in the article. I hadn’t thought about my choice of friends from that perspective, and it is thought provoking. And I do struggle with PTSD though I’ve made huge progress. HUGE.
If you knew me in “real life” you would know I would have to enter a protest against these types of studies on mice, however. The fact that they ARE so similar makes doing the studies something that I think will really be looked down upon later in history…if WE survive as a species. There are plenty of real life animal trauma victims to study, just go to any elephant or parrot or chimpanzee sanctuary for instance. Dr. Gay Bradshaw is doing fascinating work on helping animals in these sanctuaries heal from the trauma for instance, of seeing their entire family murdered in front of them. She has a double phd and uses human trauma recovery techniques with these animals, and also chickens and others. She has also documented instances of the betrayal bond at The Elephant Sanctuary in TN….fascinating stuff. I don’t want to hijack this tread into the merits of animal testing…there are other forums for that. Just a passing note. Please.
I think I mentioned in another thread recently how validating it was to be at a conference surrounded with heroic people who share my values….like moving into a great neighborhood for a few days. The p/s hijack our values, get us doubting everything. I’ve never cared about material wealth but the P suddenly had me coveting that, feeling like a failure, etc. So wonderful to immerse myself in a bunch of Jane Goodall, Mother Theresa types that reflect my values that wealth doesn’t matter, that what matters is what you give. I know that trait is part of what got me in a mess with a P. I know now to be careful about who I give to and to look for the reciprocity in the relationship. Even when I give to an animal, it comes back to me in full measure….but not by the false yardstick a P uses.
Spent my birthday, not an exotic cruise, but helping to nurse 14 foals traumatically removed from their mothers. Another long story. But the point is, I couldn’t have had a more perfect day. Loving those foals, I was filled with a warmth and love I could not have gotten by spending money on myself or even listening to a P tell me how wonderful I am, while I’m walking on eggshells.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 9:13pm
justabouthealed says:
Rune…you are right, not talk therapy. One of the most effective means of healing for animals is letting them see recovered animals modeling healthy relationships.
As Dr. Leedom says “It is especially important to spend time with functional families/couples who love and care for each other.” So the traumatized animal can be given a safe place from which to watch the others. Sometimes that is from a human’s arms, sometimes it is from a tiny cage that they won’t leave, though the door is open. And of course, it really helps when one of the healthy animals comes over and starts gently interacting with the traumatized one. Sometimes just sitting by them quietly and never leaving except to get food, which they quietly offer to share. Some integrate quickly, some take weeks to leave their safe spot.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 9:22pm
James says:
This is one challenge that I saw early in my experience with my ex s/p. Insomuch that I refused to allow myself to stay in the position of the victim. Because I at a younger age was before sexual abuse physical abuse and had exposure to those that wanted nothing less then to control me and really in a way “own” me I started to break free (too run or personally fight them verbally) of these people very early in my own personal way to autonomy. Even at a very young age I become a fighter (survivor) and refused to lose (victim) to them and this is how I understood it and/or wanted to understand it at a very young age.
So after my ex tried something like this on me for 17 years I wanted to fight but this time I wanted to fight to keep our family together and not just run away from the problems and not try to fight immaturely by/with verbally fighting her. What did I try?
Compassion and empathy
Communication
Role model
Forgiveness
Therapy
Skills learned from my abusive environment and my own therapy.
Sorry but none of these worked on my ex s/p.
Why?
Because my ex s/p never really wanted solutions to any problems. This emotional fight was lost even before the first psychological shoot was fired in a way. This of course is something I have just recently acknowledged.
Anyway, again I found myself in this “victim mode” but knew I had to get on to becoming the survivor. How to do this? Well, in my past understanding the problem(s) happens only when I really understood the problem(s). So I started asking questions and did research on what I was experiencing. Knowledge in partnership with understanding become the tools to reach beyond victimization then step into enlightenment and then come into idealization that I will become the survivor. In short I saw myself of a survivor before I became a survivor. Makes sense? To me in a way it didn’t as well. But I knew if I believe I could survive this then I would survive. It’s like the saying “I think I am therefore I am”. (God, how I always loved the power of words)
“The defeat state can be reversed with antidepressants. Defeat is associated with elevated stress hormones, immune dysfunction and learned helplessness.”
Went back to therapy on my own. I was put on antidepressants and they did help. Because of my stress levels I try to control them and help bring them back to a normal level. That helped as well. I refuse to accept “learned helplessness” as an acceptable state of being. In short this mouse become the lion again.
Thanks Liane Leedom again your writing helps me put things into prospective and confirms my own inner beliefs and that I feel I am one the right path to complete healing and understanding…
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 9:36pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dr. Stosney sounds like he doesn’t like it when victims
1. Get a clue
2. Solve their own problems
3. and make it without him holding their hand.
I’ve got no sympathy for the good doctor. If I hadn’t gotten a clue, there’s no telling how much damage my family and I would have suffered.
This is true for countless victims. We can’t sit around waiting for the good doctor. We need to take our lives back.
Sure, we know abusers need to become more compassionate in order to stop being abusive. We know they rarely if ever do that. We know abusers don’t enjoy the same quality of life the rest of us do. We know it’s pointless to taunt them with their permanent disconnect from the best of the human experience. Unlike Dr. Stosney, we also know that wallowing in pity for an abuser only opens us up to further harm.
The emotional barrenness of a cluster B is a crying shame, but of all the bad stuff in the world, it’s the one thing I’m least able to fix. Wringing my hands over the emotional wasteland of the S, the N or the P is not healthy for me.
The good doctor is not needed to validate my experience, hold my hand or tell me to go no contact with an abuser. With a dose of common sense, I can do that just fine. I refuse to shed tears for an abuser, who would respond to my tears as a shark would to ribbon of blood in the water.
I cordially hope that silly know-it-all has one of those nasty parasites latch on to him. Let’s see how helpful he finds his bleeding heart when he’s trying to cut ties with someone who effortlessly manipulates his emotions.
Grrr! What a thoroughly bombastic twit!
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 9:37pm
Rune says:
EC: I think Dr. Stosney may have valid points IF you’re NOT DEALING WITH A SOCIOPATH! So that’s reasonable advice if you’re talking about the majority of the population, and off-base, IMHO, for those of us who really tangled with the highly disordered.
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 10:17pm
James says:
“A compassionate victim, knowing that the abuser cannot change without becoming more compassionate, will leave. (Is he kidding me?). What is a “compassionate victim?
An abuser who becomes more compassionate cannot continue to abuse.” (Guess he is talking about your everyday abuser and not about an incessant abuser. Whose who are unable or unwilling to take accountability for their abusive nature.
I take it this person knows nothing or very little about personality disorders and/or a sociopathic person?
I have to agree with both Elizabeth Conley and Dr. Leedom about this author and that I don’t agree with some of what he has to say…
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Friday, 29 May 2009 @ 10:27pm
Rune says:
Yes, James, you see what I saw.
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 12:49am
ErinBrockovich says:
I gotta tell ya all……
I was introduced to a supposed ‘gentleman’ today….at first glance, seemed like a decent guy. We exchanged a few emails, seemed ‘normal’, yadayadayada…….
I learned long ago, to not give out ANY info about myself and just ask about THEM! Oh, how that works well…..people are so exhuberant to answer questions about themselves when they do not know you……NOT ME!!!!
When I got his full name……I pulled an erin B and did a simple, internet background check…… crossed referenced what info he gave me…..it’s real easy!
OH YEAH……..RED FLAGRED FLAG!!!
3 divorces with restraining orders placed on him during all.
1 child, who from birth he was not allowed to see and restraining orders in place for 9 years……EXTENDED FOR 9 YEARS…..
He tried to gain custody, each time denied and stiffer orders placed on him.
(Oh yeah…..he told me in the first email what a great active father he was and his 9 year old daughter was the light of his life!)
In 2008 a RAPE charge was dismissed for lack of evidence.
He bragged about it on one blog. No one could PROVE anything he was so good. YIKES!!!
He is an active member of MANBLA (man boy love association) …….CAN YOU SAY PEDOPHILE??????
He is an active member of the gay cyclists of america group…..
(Once again….I have NOTHING against gay folks…..But, I have a ‘thing’ about MY man being gay!!!)
He bragged about being a pro cyclist, and a coach at the local University. ( Kinda scary who your kids are being ‘coached’ by?) BTW…who does the hiring here?
I also found numerous blogs about his aversion and pure hatred of female judges in our area.
Stating his dismay about being ordered to pay $100 child support and his refusal to do so.
And some other weird rants that were random, but wicked!
NOW…..the ‘old’ Erin would be sitting there trying to find a reason to believe he was ‘framed’, falsly accused, disgruntled ex….oh, he really is a decent guy, look he’s so good looking, maybe I should just have dinner with him and ’see for myself’…….blah, blah ,blah….. (OH YES>>>>>AND WAIT TO BE RAPED BY A PEDOPHILE-GAY GUY THAT RIDES A BIKE????)
BUT……NOT THE NEW EB!!!! Man, I would rather be alone!
I read all the LF stories about hooking up with another S……AND I DON”T WANT TO BE THERE AGAIN!!!!!
I would rather be wrong and run for the hills, than take my ‘chances’ and be wrong!!!
NO THANK YOU!!!
SO…..I popped him an email saying I was leaving for Venezuela for an extended business trip in the am and I would ‘be in touch’……SEE YA!
I also let this ‘mutual’ acquantance in on his ’secrets’…..SHOCK all around!!!!
You just can’t tell a S by the cover folks…..read the book first!
Let this be a lesson to us all…..internet background checks…..essential information to have!!!!
I just caught another mouse in MY trap!!! At this one didn’t have time, or get close enough to poop on my life before I did him in!!
Growth huh? Thanks to the LF gang….I proceed with caution!!
Have a GREAT weekend!
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 1:38am
shabbychic2 says:
EB: Jeez, I mean, JEEZ. Way to go! Was this a background check that you paid for? (it was well worth it if you did!). What an A**hole S/P. Very good lesson. I was always so afraid to be alone I would ignore red flags, but I’m realizing it’s not so bad to be alone, you’re right, “I don’t want to be there again!!!!!” NO TO POOP!
How did you find the blogs? I am so technically challenged.
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 1:57am
ErinBrockovich says:
Shabbychic:
Isearch.com
Enter name and city/state.
This is a good start. You get age, property owners address (if they own property), spouse or ex spouse name.
Then take this info to google.com…..
You never know what you find on google.
Court doc’s. Blogs, newspaper articles, career info etc….the sky’s the limit girl!!!
Intellius.com is another site that gives decent free info.
Whitepages.com
Take what you gather to Myspace.com and this provides an immense amount of info.
Then facebook.com
All free…..No I have NEVER paid for any info.
You need very little info to cross reference a person……
Name or Phone number, or job (career path), extracurricular activitiy, town.
If you have this info or even some of the above, on google you know you have the correct person…..if you know they work for IBM and are in the tech field and an article about a Dr. so and so appears…..most likely you have the wrong guy.
WIth all the info I have found on the internet during my divorce and recon work……I WOULD NEVER HAVE A MYSPACELINKEDIN>OR EVEN SIGN AN ONLINE BEREAVEMENT BOOK……
My kids were mortified when I ’stalker mommed’ their friends and told them things about who they hung out with…..they all cancelled their accounts!
I have found out info about swingers in my area my S played with, gay hang outs my ex frequented, where my GF’s husband meets his hookers and when, the s’s drug suppliers girlfriends home address, and other financial and personal info put out there for all to see!
Trust me…..I have found out more than I EVER wanted to know about what goes on around us!!!!!!
But I am soooooo glad I did.
GOTTA KEEP THOSE TRAPS SET AND READY!!!!! But we also must be ready, willing and prepared to throw the mice out with the trap when caught!!!
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 2:31am
shabbychic2 says:
EB: Thank you so much for the info! I did not know about some of these websites, I’ll check it out!!!
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 9:17am
James says:
“EB: Thank you so much for the info! I did not know about some of these websites, I’ll check it out!!!”
shabbychic2
Erin is right about the search and how to use the internet. Some people just don’t understand this simply rule. 1) What you put on the web stays on the web.
But when we talk about s/p or and then understand the lack of impulse control many of them make the mistake and will do and say things on blogs and sites that other can go back and read themselves. Because s/p don’t think before they leap they will put themselves into positions and sites that can later haunt them. They will hate and smear other people just as easily on the internet then they will whenever they do a smear campaign with a ex or a person they want to trash. We call them “trolls” “socks” and other names to id them. These are people filled with hate and use the internet and other peoples like emotional toilets.
I have one myself on a site called dating psychos. I been dealing with this one for 3 years now. They are persistent and just like a p/s don’t give up. Really it’s all about supply and one should never take anything said to you personally. Anyway read if you want but please be advised of the harsh language.
http://www.datingpsychos.com/v.....cho_id=680
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 9:43am
slimone says:
Hi All,
Liane: I looked at that picture, of the defeated little mouse, and before I even read the article I could feel what it was going to tell me. Oh, I have been that little mouse so many times in the last few years. And I appreciate especially how you relate that you are aware of your victim identity when hanging with others who know/have experience of psychopathy. Mostly because I have that experience too, and it has sometimes frustrated or worried me. But the way you put it in your article, along with the suggestion to hang with folks who have not been victimized or are otherwise involved, makes it feel less worrisome. Thank-you.
EB: Wow, congratulations on coming up with the truth on this ‘gentleman’. Great hearing how much you have learned. How you aren’t doing what you would have done in the past! Very inspiring. It is just amazing how they will post the EXACT opposite of what they are. Loving father!?
Someone else (I am not sure who) wrote about s/p’s giving themselves away on the internet, not having the ability to self-edit and control their impulse to ‘rant’. I have also seen something quite the contrary. There are those folks who HAVE managed to stay under the radar, who, when you google them look like superstars (perhaps this is more of a narcisstic quality?). I don’t bring this up to say that online searches are futile. But just to point out that we have to use all of our intelligences with these folks: our intellect (online searches, books, this fab blog, etc…), our body/instincts (stomach ache, a ’sense’ that something isn’t right, mania and low energy, feeling off-center), and our emotional intelligence (feeling confused, sad, depressed, worried, doubtful).
None-the-less…EB I love reading this success.
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Saturday, 30 May 2009 @ 3:14pm
dancingnancies says:
Thank you for this.
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 1:21am
libelle says:
Dear slimone,
you said “There are those folks who HAVE managed to stay under the radar, who, when you google them look like superstars (perhaps this is more of a narcisstic quality?). I don’t bring this up to say that online searches are futile. But just to point out that we have to use all of our intelligences with these folks”.
So true! My X and also the X of my sister were “too good to be true” on the internet as I did a background check. TOO perfect, and TOO much of good, SO fabulous and wonderful, PLENTY of information, as if Mother Theresa meets George Clooney combined with Albert Einstein. The homepage was SO full of HIS good acts to humanity, SO elaborate, SO clever, with nice pictures of a big “puppie” with a sad twist in his eyes. (Though all about his children, no mention of the women he has the children with, which made me think in a relieved way as I remember now: he has no issues anymore with the wives; SO WRONG; or SO TRUE, he could not care less!). Now in retrospect I get nausea thinking about it, but back then I was very impressed and swepped away!
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 1:44am
James says:
libelle
“So true! My X and also the X of my sister were “too good to be true” on the internet as I did a background check. TOO perfect, and TOO much of good, SO fabulous and wonderful, PLENTY of information, as if Mother Theresa meets George Clooney combined with Albert Einstein.”
I can relate to this because I know those that are too perfect to good. Whenever anyone wants to be “too” nice and “too” helpful my radar goes beep beep unlike if I come into a contact with someone I know to be a s/p then it goes BEEP BEEP.. But my point is being “too” much there still should be a thought in the back of our minds “why is he/she being “so” nice? Remember manipulators need to get their foot in the door and they can’t get there but being upfront and honest. They get there by being deceitful and then will show us a very impressive and good front. They go to external showcasing to do so with all the bing bing they can find and use. Drew Peterson would be in my book the perfect example of this.
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 11:05am
Adam says:
James
Did You expose your x on that Psycodate-ing site?
I don’t think exposing a psyco ,If you know they are violent is a good healthy idea! Perhaps because women are less likly to commit violence? Remember Wornos! Peace
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 3:52pm
Tilly says:
James :
“Mother Theresa meets George Clooney combined with Albert Einstein.” ha ha… I’m still laughing at this image!
Mother Theresa admitted in her diaries that she only felt a “connection” to God for two weeks and 15 hours of her entire life. On two separate occasions. Whilst she worked tirelessly to help others regardless of this, she was still very distressed about it.
George Clooney is obviously a player and a narcissist. Just look at his best friend Brad and partner Ange. It is so obvious what will eventually happen there…those poor kids (or poor “future Ps”). And you can smell Jennifer Anniston a mile away off.. i.e. the stink of a psychopath.
As for Einstein, he was such a genius I wonder how his relationships went?
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 4:19pm
Tilly says:
i.e. Mother Theresa felt a connection to God for two weeks in a row, once. And then for fifteen hours, once.
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 4:21pm
justabouthealed says:
I wonder what techniques are most effective for PTSD. I read elsewhere that PTSD is like a post-hypnotic suggestion from the trance state that kind of hits you when a major trauma hits. I’m not sure if that is right or not.
Is hypnosis useful then in recovery? What about the eye-movement therapy? And what about cognitive therapy?
For a specific phobia I had had since a child, cognitive therapy worked really well for me, without a therapists help, just by reading about it in a book and applying the principles. (I used to pass at even the sight of someone in physical pain. I was constantly keeling over! Once I fainted from just walking through the doors of a hospital. Now I can watch operations, help in emergencies, etc.)
I think Oxy has said the eye movements helped her and someone else posted some techniques to use to try it on yourself, but now I can’t find them!
Also, diluting the memory by making it funny has helped me.
But just wonder what is best for PSTD from a BAD MAN.
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 8:41pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
justabouthealed….it was S O S….I copied it in March (8th)2009
+++++++++++++++++++++++
____S O S says:
OxDrover: I pretty much took what I’d learned from sessions with that therapist and modified it to my own purposes.
EMDR as done with that particular therapist
1. The traumatic issue or memory: Put a picture in your mind which represents the worst part of the incident.
2. Negative cognition: What words go best with that picture which expresses your negative belief about yourself now?
3. Positive cognition: When you bring up that picture/incident, what would you like to believe about yourself now?
4. When you bring up that picture/incident, how true do you feel the positive cognition is?
1 = feels completely false, 7 = feels completely true
5. When you bring up that picture/incident, how disturbed do you feel?
0 = no disturbance, 10 = highest disturbance possible
6. Do the eye movement while thinking about the picture/incident. (He’d wave his hand back and forth quickly, but not so quickly that I couldn’t follow with my eyes). For about 20 seconds or so.
7. Go back to step 4 and repeat the process until the numbers (in steps 4 & 5) go down to more acceptable levels, if not the lowest level.
Note: One thing he let me do which was helpful for me, and this was something I came up with on my own, was to verbalize any thoughts I had while my eyes were going back and forth. My goal was to come up with ideas about how I’d handle that situation if I had to experience it again, today. It was my own little modification, and the insights I came up with were as good for me as the actual eye movement was, I think.
EMDR as I do it with my computer
I placed a couple of bullseye pictures I found from Google images on a blank Word document. They’re spaced at opposite ends of the page (12 inches apart on my screen, about two feet from my face. I suppose any picture would do. It gives my eyes something to look at when my eyes go back and forth. Underneath I type very brief descriptions of the following (so I stay on track).
1. The traumatic issue or memory: Put a picture in your mind which represents the worst part of the incident.
2. Negative cognition: What words go best with that picture which expresses your negative belief about yourself now?
3. Positive cognition: When you bring up that picture/incident, what would you like to believe about yourself now?
I’ll do it for twenty or so seconds, three or more ‘sessions’, and between each ‘session’, type up any thoughts (if any) I had. I ignore the steps 4&5. I don’t need to convince myself it works.
—
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 9:01pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you so much. I’m copying it to my computer so I won’t lose it. Thank you!
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 9:12pm
James says:
Adam
“I don’t think exposing a psyco ,If you know they are violent is a good healthy idea!”
And you are right. It’s very dangerous so one must be very careful!
But not exposing a s/p is also dangerous to others that will come into contact with them. If anyone is thinking about exposing their ex s/p make sure you understand all the risks.
But for me not exposing a person of this nature is a sin. Plus I waited until I understand the full nature of these people before doing so. This of course doesn’t take away all the risks but it does give that person knowledge and wisdom in how to process. Again Adam not exposing them is a sin to me and would put my immoral soul at risk if I did nothing to help and warn others of the potential danger whenever one comes into contact with the person. Too many children have been hurt by this person, so to do nothing to me is inherently wrong therefore a sin.
Also exposure of these type of people will do two things simultaneously. 1) Warn others of the danger and 2) Cut off some possible supply they might receive by others who don’t understand their abusive nature.
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 10:09pm
James says:
Adam,
“Remember Wornos!”
“Are serial killers beyond redemption? Two new films consider the case of Aileen Wuornos, a woman executed by Florida in 2002 for killing seven men with a .22-caliber pistol. Although the films differ in their portrayal of Wuornos, both attempt to see beyond the media’s sensationalism and make an emotional argument against the death penalty.”
I guess you are referring to Aileen Wuornos? Sorry but your spelling is a little off. But yes I do remember this person. Again one must understand and be in ready to learn about the nature of this disorder.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/ar.....e_monster/
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Sunday, 31 May 2009 @ 10:30pm
blueskies says:
Hi James and Tilly and ShabbyChic:)
I hope things are good and peaceful for you today.xx
Panic attacks: Yikes! I have never had them before this year, I had 3 in total over April – beginning of May, and thankfully they’ve subsided now, but what a scary experience!
The first was in public, I was at a gig and went to the bathroom, came back and couldn’t see my friend because it was dark (one of my first ventures ‘out into the real world’ since the D&D and the big black hole I then fell into, I guess I suddenly felt alone and vulnerable) and the next thing I knew I felt like I was having a heart/ asthma attack and my mind was capsizing! Awful.:(
The next was when I was with a male friend and he asked me about a book I had read, my mind went blank and I couldn’t remember the details , heart started racing, head swimming and I nearly fainted! I guess the trigger was that the s/p I knew was always asking questions about things I did or read or thought, how I felt about god, religion (and magic – lol! Yes he was soooo special he was merlin and yoda and gandhi and Jesus all rolled into one – not!) etc, but it always felt treacherous, not like actual interest, and I now see it was often a way of undermining me or trying to trip me up or demonstrate his superiority of mind over me (PUH!). So big panic at feeling like I was in that situation again! Of course I wasn’t, my friend is not trying to laugh at me because I cant quote Shakespeare verbatim and am therefore an idiot – that is the creep’s game and he is not here anymore… awful feelings.
And the last was just in my kitchen for no reason I can fathom whatsoever!
PA’s are really terrible things, I hope it never happens again I can honestly say the first one I had was one of the most frightening experiences of my life:(
xxxxx
I find that making sure that I am with people I trust doing gentle things on MY terms, (that isnt as bolshi as it sounds… its not about calling the shots but choosing to do what feels comfortable for me, not rocket science I know, but its a revelation for me:) practising meditating on calm and peace and self love as I go about my business and gently pushing myself to become bolder(veeeery gently:), moving back in small steps to ME… or a better me…
xxxx
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 3:29am
blueskies says:
Okay – that was weird. I apologise LF’ers, I managed to post this, lose it and post again on two different threads:S Doh! xx forgive me:)
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 3:38am
Tilly says:
This girl who goes to my art class with me and who has befriended me is starting to show signs.. red flags. I thought she was the one girl in the class i could trust. She gave a card and an expensive present to our narcissist teacher today. I could tell she had waited for everyone to go before she gave it to her and she was disappointed i didn’t go as well. We always have a joke together about the teachers narcissism and her Mount Everest ego.
I am so mad at myself, I don’t know if i am just being paranoid or not. I just realised that my friend is very highly competitive and only does things to help if she is noticed. She becomes a friend if it helps her, if not she backs off.
I am so confused.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 4:42am
Rune says:
Blueskies: “Trauma from interacting with a psychopath is not just psychological, it’s NEUROLOGICAL!” That statement is from notes I took on a conversation with a psychologist who does neurofeedback.
She encouraged me to rest, be gentle with myself, understand that this takes time.
I don’t know that this explains your panic attacks, but I understand from some of my study that anxiety shows up as a higher frequency in the brain, and when we’ve lived with a psychopath, we have been spending a lot of time in a state of high alert. That’s like running a car at 60 mph in first gear!
I understand that sense of going blank when faced with a mental challenge while feeling pressure. I think you’re on the right track with giving yourself permission to do gentle things on your terms.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:04am
Rune says:
Tilly: So you spotted this quickly! Your antenna is working — good for you!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:05am
justabouthealed says:
Two things that got me over my panic attacks. One was giving myself a math problem to do at the moment I felt one starting. Like counting in a pattern like this 100-1-99-2-98-3, so you are counting up and down at the same time. And sometimes I think my eyes moved from side to side as I did it, which may have helped to. But it is IMPOSSIBLE to be cognitive and emotive (to that extent) at the same time. So the idea is to stop the emotions by going into a cognitive mode.
the other thing that helped was starting to really connect with where I am and asking myself, “What here is frightening me….is it the red chair, is the flower in the vase, it is the person standing here, is it the floor I’m standing on….what is scary here.” Again, it gets your brain in a cognitive mode.
One last trick. This helped me a great deal. Rate your fear. Ahead of time, think to yourself what a panic attack feels like at “1″ at at 2, etc. on up to 10. Then when you feel one starting, ask yourself, Okay, is this a 10 yet? No, it is more like a 3, oops, now it is 6, okay, now it is back to 3, now more like a 1……Same deal, gets your brain out of the emotive faze and into thinking.
Believe me, I had severe panic attacks. I would see a picture of someone hurt in an accident and faint. One foot up, then the other and go flat on my back, hitting my head and body hard. I was afraid of seeing physical suffering. I could even just walk in a hospital and pass out, without seeing anything. Once a woman in church fainted during the final prayer, and I remember thinking I wonder what that felt like, and next thing I knew they were reviving me. I had gone one foot up, then the other, fell straight back and bounced my jaw on a row of chairs. So I was pretty bad.
I read about the techniques in a book and applied them without the help of a therapist. I was so proud that when my dad had to have a painful procedure, and the doctor asked if one member of the family could go with him, to keep him calm, everyone pointed to me. I’m now not bothered A BIT by that stuff anymore.
So now I just have to apply the same techniques to the “falling into a deep black space” feeling I can get if I think of the P too much. Determined to get rid of that last little residue.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 11:51am
justabouthealed says:
But still wondering if hypnosis could help…
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 11:53am
justabouthealed says:
And thanks again Jim, I’m using that technique and will keep working with it.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 11:55am
Tilly says:
I hate maths..maybe i could draw a picture!
Rune: Am I paranoid or is she one..its not quickly spotted i have been in her class all year! help!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 3:46pm
Rune says:
Tilly: Remember how good they are at faking it? It appears that your classmate is doing some serious schmoozing, buttering up the teacher. I’d be wary. They can appear very authentic, and then switch around.
Some people say that 1 in 25 people is sociopathic. Some people think the numbers are higher.
Even if it has taken you all year in class to figure this out, I think you deserve “extra credit”! Good job!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:26pm
Tilly says:
The teacher went off with her to the back room for 20 minutes. When she came out the “class mate” walked in the opposite direction to me. The teacher came over and sat opposite me and looked at me straight in the eye and said “I hate liars”. Then looked away from me but didn’t move.
The class mate new that I was the narcissit’s favourite because I played her. ( Told her she was a genius all term). Bit I didn’t know the class mate was a P! I hate myself!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:33pm
Tilly says:
Then again, I’ve got another year with the P class mate so at least i found out now.
Although the narcissist teacher doesnt give our marks out until next week. She can’t fail me as I have excelled.. Just mark me low. But I pray I don’t have her for another subject. And I am furious at myself for falling for yet another P! DAMN!!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:36pm
Rune says:
Wow, Tilly. It’s a lesson in getting distance from a P as fast as you recognize one. When I saw the first part of your story, I had a bad feeling about how it might end.
Deep breath. Keep moving forward.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:38pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
I had a P instructor in school, and I smoozed her for one semester, but CHANGED SCHOOLS because I knew I could’t get by with it for another 3 years….eventually they act like they did with that woman who was in college and the prof attacked her after buttering her for a while. I think her name was Betty—CRS, not sure of name!
They will “love bomb” you for a while if you go along with them and smooze then but eventually, they ATTAACK. It isn’t a matter of IF, but WHEN they bite.
The way yours said “I hate liars” seems to me you couldn’t tell if it was the other student she was talking about or YOU. so no matter what with these people, you ALWAYS get bitten to one extent or another. Just be WARY! (((hugs))))
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:42pm
Tilly says:
I know the attack was to me and I was expecting it, but i thought it would be next week!!
AFTER OUR MARKS!!
But when she attacked me I kept making eye contact with her, because then I would know if she could back it up. But she didn’t. There were other people present.
I believe the classmate told her some lies about me and then the art teacher came out and attacked me. I believe they are both cluster Bs.
So today I decided I will send my last bit of work by email to the narcissist teacher. I don’t have to have contact with her for about 7 weeks . And then I will see if I can change subjects. In the meantime , I will cancel the course I was going to do with the two faced “classmate”. No contact. Case solved. THANKYOU OXY!!! YOU ARE IN MY PRAYERS FOR YOUR COURT THING! xoxoxoxox
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:06am
James says:
One thing about these panic attacks for me was that it’s a physical reaction to a emotional state of being. What I mean it’s something I can put my hands on in a way. In the beginning so many times we will doubt ourselves like;
Am I the crazy one here?
Were they really that controlling?
How can (statements) all what they said be lies?
I can’t believe they never really loved us?
Am I remembering it as it “really” happened?
Is she really as bad as I making it out to be?
Am I doing the right thing?
Who is the one that really needs help here, me or her?
Self doubt is normal and we all do it. But it only adds to our confusion.
But whenever we are experiencing a “panic attack” isn’t that telling us something is wrong emotionally but just taking on a more physical form?
My major panic attack (per the physician) was for me a “wake up call”. After experiencing it I realized I couldn’t do it on my own and rethought my decision about not taking antidepressants. It also helped me not just go to a psychologist but run to one! After my testing and interview with a licenses psychologist she did put me on antidepressants and they did help with my emotional and mental state of mind. I was put on only a “introduction” dosage and stay at that level for one year. After that I quit them but as I stated before never experienced another attack after that one, THANK YOU LORD!
Rune,
““Trauma from interacting with a psychopath is not just psychological, it’s NEUROLOGICAL!” That statement is from notes I took on a conversation with a psychologist who does neurofeedback.”
Can you give me more information on this? A link maybe?
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 7:18am
jillsmith says:
This was very helpful to read. I think this describes how I’m feeling lately and I can see that this victim mentality is keeping me from really living. I’ve got to figure out how to stop thinking of myself as a victim. It’s difficult when I still feel that I’m being victimized my ex, but being stuck in this mode is giving him more power over my life than I should. I do have a lot of living left to do and have to figure out a way to do it without thinking of my losses all of the time. It’s so difficult to get self esteem back after going through all of this. I used to be so self-confident.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:09am
Skippy says:
Interesting article, though I agree with those here who say it’s important not to beat up on ourselves for feeling victimized when we’ve been set up and targeted and destroyed before we have any clue what a sociopath is. I’ve been having an interesting reaction to my targeting. I’ve been feeling unbelievably anxious ever since it happened, and exhausted (I do wonder if SPs are not, in fact, true energy vampires, that they literally suck us dry of our energy somehow–that observation about the affect being neurological intrigues me), and I have been having to fight the paranoid feeling that somehow the fact that this a**hole played me and successfully achieved his D&D is stamped on my forehead for all to see. Some of this may come from my childhood, when everything bad that happened was my fault–and this experience just stirred it all up. But what I felt I HAD to do after the D&D (and complications), as if my life depended on it, despite the anxiety and exhaustion, was throw a big party and invite all my other friends and create a more public profile in doing things that were helpful to others, as stressful as these things were. It was like I both wanted the cluster Bs I fell in with to know I had support so they wouldn’t go all out in trashing me and also, to stand up for myself, let myself know I was going to stand up for me, even though I was feeling like that poor beat down mouse. I do think it’s helping. But no contact is helping the most, I think. It’s very very healing not to have to see/interact with/think about these people.
Also, I think it’s true that someone who seems “too nice” or “too helpful” might be a red flag, but I do think some people really are that nice (you might think I’m “too nice” if you could search my public profile)–it might be that, like me, they were raised by narcissistic parents who expected them to fix everything. I’ve noticed all my siblings are big “fix-it” types, always wanting to help, find a solution for someone’s problem. I think that’s one of the creepiest things about SPs–some of the red flags can, in fact, be read just the opposite in a healthy person (or one who’s been “trained” by a cluster B). You’d have to know which one the person is to know how to interpret the signs. But I do know that now, my trust in new people is gone. I’m actually keeping lists of potential red flags for new acquaintances, especially ones who want to get close quickly, just because I was way too naive and trusting before and now I don’t trust my own instincts. It’s a journey, for sure.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:22am
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
What james quoted from Rune about the neurological damage done to our entire system (mental and physical) is so true. Stress is CHEMICAL and does damage to our brains and bodies, immune system etc. and our thinking is less functional under the influence of all these chemicals released in response to stress. Short term, like if you are scared when you almost step on a snake, this chemical bath into our brain lets us react quickly so we dont’ get bitten, or fight off a tiger or run from a tiger, but LONG TERM it destroys both physical and mental functioning and it takes a long time to recover from high stress.
Keeping your stress high is what your x is doing (like with the baby seat thrown off the tower) but also HE ENJOYS knowing that he is upsetting you, stressing you.
It takes several things to “de stress” and A COUPLE OF THEM ARE PEACE AND SAFETY for a time, when you can let the body and mind repair the damage. Sometimes this also requires antidepressants because the stress reaction is sort of like the “depression” it causes.
Just like an old dog that is sick will crawl under the porch and lay around for a while if it isn’t feeling well, we need to do the same thing as well. Cut down the number of decisions we have to make, cut down the amount of work we have to do to the bare minimum, etc. I’m sort of a “work-a-holic” and have always been busy doing something “useful” and so it is difficult for me to “relax” and just DO NOTHING but it is a healing thing. fortunately, in a way, because I had to flee my home, it made me just DO NOTHING because there was nothing to do living in the RV by the lake except just REST and think, read and post on LF. Not having all these things to “do” on my plate gave me time to process the emotional trauma, to heal and to start to think better. (((hugs)))) and my prayers for you and your son.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:24am
Skippy says:
Excellent advice, OxDrover – as always. Thanks. I am feeling like a sick dog that needs to crawl under the porch, and as active as I’ve always been, it’s been hard to give myself permission to do just that. I feel like sleeping 12 hours a day and doing nothing the other 12.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:37am
Rosa says:
When I look back at my relationship with my S boyfriend, I understand that he was not real, and what he presented to me was an illusion.
But, for me, the love I felt for him at that time was real. Maybe it was not real for him, but it was for me. Maybe what I was “in love” with was not real, but MY love was real.
He was a great teacher in that he taught me about the sinister part of life that was sheltered from me as a child.
And boy, did I learn!
But, at the end of the day, I was not the one incapable of love, he was.
I am at peace with that.
What is that expression? “I would rather have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all.”
P.S. And guess what? When we come to the end of our journey on this earth, there is only one thing we can take with us: LOVE.
What will the S do then?
P.S.S. Hope this helps those who are feeling PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:03am
areyoukiddingme says:
Boy do I know PTSD!
But how do you describe it I have thought over and over again how do you describe it?
I woke up one day and found my X was not real, he had conned lied cheated and stole from our very dear friends and he was living 2 lives, first the shock that comes over ALL of US once you see it in your face is indescribable. But after my nightmare I literally had a nervous breakdown (funny I had a doctor tell me there was such thing, well I am here to tell you there is) I couldn’t talk I couldn’t move, my children had to carry me to the car that was the most heat breaking. But after that hospital stay for 8 days that’s where I knew PTSD, I felt like I was in a bubble, a tunnel, underwater walking but not really there talking but not talking. I hear people say there is no such thing as PTSD well as some of you know this is real and My heart goes out to those who have had walk to this journey seems to be a long journey and that it will never stop. I think for most all of us would do better but when you realize you are homeless, penniless and shocked to no end that someone could lie that much keeps us in this stat. And even more the legal battles, I know I would have been further along but I got subpoenaed 6 months after the nightmare and have been battling in court for a year now. There is no rest its hard to sleep, sometimes so tough to keep fighting.
O yes PTSD is real.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:36am
OxDrover says:
Dear Skippy,
The RESTING both mentally and physically has been very difficult for me too. One of my nick-names as a kid was “roller skate” because I was always on the move at high speed.I could “multi-task” with the best of them, an dkeep it all together, now, post PTSD I have trouble juggling ONE ball or task, and keeping it off the floor using both hands—and that was frustating to the max! I too thought I should do thinks like you did, with your party even though you were exhausted—-a better choice and decision would have been to hole up in your bed and “suck your thumb” in the “fetal position” but i couldn’t do that either, I had to DO something, FIX something, etc. was difficult to over come, even logically or using my thinking brain, which I think was on “PAUSE”—LOL
I literally got so concerned that I had my shrink give me an IQ test cause I thought I was going senile and it terrified me (stressed me even worse) I am improving with the CRS but I’ve come to grips with the fact that I will never be able to MULTI-task to the extent that I “used’a'could’a done.”
My brain has been changed by the chemical “bath” that the stress long term gave it, along with the sudden stress of my husband’s fatal accident. Plus, frankly, I retired because my job (Advanced Practice nurse) depended on me being able to multi-task, focus well, and take people’s lives in my hands. I was no longer able to do that. My profession was part of my idenity, so I lost that part to, in a way, by not being able to work at what I loved because I had no short term memory. I couldn’t put people’s lives in danger because of my problem. It was one of the hardest decisions I ever had to make, plus it put me behind the financial 8-ball as well.
The young and middle aged women (men) on here who HAVE to keep on functioning with a job and with caring for children AND trying to find enhough time and peace in which to heal have my admiration for sure. In the past, I have functioned under extreme stress with kids, job etc. and I KNOW how ahrd it is, but this episode was just TOO MUCH for me, I was depleted of energy to keep on. All this stress is cumulative for sure. Just like a bucket under a leaky faucet, it fills up slowly, but the ONE DROP finally fills it up and it starts to run over.
We get so FULL of pain and stress that we no longer are able to do what we need to do and it all leaks over. In order to function again, we, just like the bucket, have to be “emptied out” of all the accumulated stress and pain. It takes TIME and effort on our part to empty all that stress and pain out. As long as we stay there under the faucet without being emptied out we are not going to be able to keep the “drip’ from running over.
Hang in there Skippy, and be good to yourself, crawl up “under the porch” and don’t do anything you don’t HAVE TO DO for a while! TAKE CARE OF YOU FIRST AND FOREMOST!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:56am
Skippy says:
Thanks so much for the kind words, good advice, and caring encouragement, Oxy. It really helps to be reminded of what I need to do right now, what’s most important. I’m not old enough to worry about senility, but my mental acuity is not what it used to be, that’s for sure. It’s pretty sobering, the long term effects.
I sure am sorry about your experiences and losing your husband. After coming within minutes of almost losing mine, and having to face the fact that I might lose him, I know that the shock and trauma is just profound. And this on top of all the other stuff.
And yes, my heart goes out to those who have full-time jobs, children to care for, legal hassles to work through. I’m lucky that I freelance, live very cheaply, and have my husband to help me through this. The courage and strength of the people on this site awe me and humble me every time I read a post.
Thanks again, OxDrover. I will take your good advice (and BTW, great article on ticks–you have a real gift for metaphor).
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:05am
akitameg says:
venting– don’t get mad.
I was a damned victim. this guy knew exactly who and what I was– what he wanted, blah blah. and now I have probs from financial to health to emotional.
How do i not feel like a victim when I lost everything I worked for– including my health and looks b/c someone deliberately sought out a vulnerable, lonely and depressed and beautiful looking woman (at the time)– just to get what they wanted. He deliberately lied.
If he had ever said that he just wanted sex– hell– I would have ran.
he knew that– so played the whole “forever card”.
not in good mood today. really clenched my teeth and dreamt of ex last nite beign with a 20 year old and my crying and asking him to please take me back— I would never do that. Why do I feel rejected– when this guy has a disordered mind anyway and would reject Angelina Joilie if she did not play his cards right every min.
Love you all. ;Sorry to be hurting. such a headache from clenching– even with a nitegurad and 10 mgs of valium.
Pissed.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:11am
bopeep says:
I have been ruined by a sociopath. As I type…I feel there is a spy program and he can see every word. PTSD is one of the afflictions that I have. I also am addicted to pain killers…it numbs me so I cant feel. I had a successful business. This person entered my life as a business consultant /accountant..and has several other “businesses” When I met him, he interviewed me to find out my dreams, my hopes, and my fears. He then began playing on those. He knew what I wanted and told me that I could get those things..( I am being unspecific out of fear he’ll read this and know its me) if I do things HIS way. So slowly but surely he gained my trust and began taking control of everything in my life. I have 5 kids single mother so my dreams were geared towards the family..like a house.So in about 4 years…he managed to ruin me but claiming the whole time that I “owed him” money…that he put so much money in my business..he had full power of my accounts..but that did not happen overnight. One of his businesses was real estate so he had me buy a house..not to live in but for investment purposes from another “client” of his. He set it up with a private lender( his friend) and I ended up signing for 90,000 more dollars than the price of the house. He told me I could use the money to knock down the house and build townhouses and for my business. Of course the $$ within 3 weeks ended up in his account which when I found out he told me I OWED $$ to him. I am so busy running my business and 5 kids, that of course in the beginning, I felt relief that he was taking charge of the paper part of the business and so I worked about 75 hours a week at the business and then there are 5 kids. He kept telling me I wasnt making money and that I was spending too much. Of course I never got P&L statements, nor did I ever get advice from this “business consultant” on how to fix the problem because he was the problem! I did leave him but was so financially ruined..I went to my mother( a selfish person) and told her I needed help. I was losing my rented house that I lived in, my house that I was renting out that was supposed to be for townhouses, and my business. He filed an involuntary bankcrupcy against me claiming I owed him 400,00 dollars and had done such a job on the figures over the years that it would cost a fortune to decipher the intentional mess he made. After $50,000 in attorneys fees which I still owe most of that I “won” but I am so much in debt that I was going to be in the street with my 5 kids…and when my mother refused to help me financially…I had no choice but to call the only person that could and that was the sociopath that created the mess…and of course 3 months later..I still have a roof over my kids head..I am still working 75-80 hours a week for nothing but bill paying but I am not in a shelter which my mother offered some phone numbers for. We are suppose to be moving in his house soon so I can SAVE money. I feel like I have no choice but to do that because the bills come in faster than I make money now. So I feel like the fly caught in the spider web with no options…I had worked so hard in my life and before the sociopath despite mistakes I had made…I took my kids on yearly vacations,Europe even and lived fine. So I have nightmares often, panic attacks, scary thoughts of something bads going to happen…and the pain killers to numb me so I can just be like a robot…taking care of the kids…working, cooking, and cleaning.I just dont know where PTSD leads to. I am afraid to know in a way. Hopefully nowhere…but I find my fears increasing…and I was a very adventureous person with a joie de vivre that wouldnt quit! Not anymore…
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:20am
learnthelesson says:
Hey Akitameg…
You are right that he deliberately lied….and regarding the whole “forever card” that so many play… what happened in my past was along with the “forever card” he intermittently played “bad cards” on me (not treating me right, making me feel bad/awful, stealing, etc…bits and pieces of crap treatment in the undertow…mixed in with “the forever card”…
So while he knew who and what I was…. I DID NOT KNOW MYSELF OR WHO I WAS… at the time did you know you were a vulnerable, lonely and depressed woman? He knew it ,, but did you??? If not, there was no way you could “protect yourself” from evil toxic people… Once we get to know ourselves, and help ourselves with the vulnerability and lonliness and depression we become much more aware about WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE DESERVE AND WE ASK OURSELVES WHAT DO WE WANT ? GUYS WHO PLAY THE “FOREVER CARD WHILE ALSO INTERMITTENTLY USING BAD CARDS ON US ALONG THE WAY…OR RELATIONSHIPS WHERE THE CARDS ARE FAIR AND FEEL GOOD EVERYDAY AND WE ARE SEEN FOR WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE ARE ALL ABOUT??
You feel rejected because in a sense many of us were rejected…but the good news is WHY? Are you ready for my belief? We were rejected because we finally took a stand for OURSELVES…for what was RIGHT…for our spirit and souls that said NO MORE DOING THE RELATIONSHIP YOUR WAY…IT WILL EITHER BE THE RIGHT HEALTHY WAY OR NOT AT ALL…When its an S/P/N it can never be the healthy way so they split, retreat, find another victim…and we are left feeling like what the heck just hit me…on one hand I stand up for myself and on the otherhand he has vanished…was I right or wrong…was it my fault..what did I do why do I hurt how could he?
The answer is because he is not a healthy caring loving person…even when playing the forever card he was treating you badly…a red flag that it would have been “A BAD FOREVER”….they do things, say things, just to get what they want…their words and their actions DONT EQUATE…so now you are prepared to protect yourself…be aware of the red flags…and when you are in a better place you will no longer want someone like him or anything close to his type of being in your life. The ones whose promises and actions fall short… still so proud of you for working through it and expressing where you are on your journey… finding yourself, knowing yourself, protecting yourself, empowering yourself to say HELL NO, I WILL NOT TAKE BAD TREATMENT OR PHYSICAL ABUSE OR EMOTIONAL ABUSE FROM ANYONE…ID RATHER LIVE LIFE AS ONE THAN BE IN “A BAD FOREVER” WITH SOMEONE!!!! xoxo
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:35am
ThePeregrine says:
Wish I had more time to write, but first let me say I think Liane reveals a great and important understanding here.
I was immediately concerned about PTSD after a fairly brief year-long encounter with a sociopath (I know some of you have been entangled and enmeshed for years, sometimes with little choice in the matter, which must be heartbreaking). I discussed my concern with a psychiatrist who said he would be more concerned about someone who wanted to just sweep it all under the rug and move on without processing. THAT almost assures PTSD!
But how to process? Several things converged to help me.
I have a healthy support system of family and friends that was only partly undermined by the Sociopath. One of my friends said (as I have probably shared here before) “Don’t let what SHE does change who YOU are.” Very important.
I also chose to act, not to be passive. It would have been easy to REact by fighting back or trying to expose her in some way, but what I needed most was healing for my Self and forgiveness of myself. The Sociopath who succeeds in getting you to focus on her (or him) has defeated you already. I was angry, insulted and humiliated, but I refused to be defeated; and in my daily actions I manifested gratitude for those things in life that I continue to enjoy. I highly recommend this way of healing.
Finally, and maybe most importantly, I reached beyond myself to be compassionate toward others. I did this partly by engaging in online support groups for “victims” of sociopaths/psychopaths, recognizing that my own empathy was THE human quality that makes me able to rise above anything a sociopath can do or say.
I did all this without benefit of medication, and I think that kept me mindful of how well I was healing within and without. Your mileage may vary! But if you are taking medication, I believe it’s important to view it as a way of buffering your thoughts and feelings and not a way that you can avoid them.
Healing requires that we confront ourselves unafraid, accept ourselves completely and turn our backs on The Other.
Be well,
Jeff
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:43am
learnthelesson says:
ThePeregrine…
“”Healing requires that we confront ourselves unafraid, accept ourselves completely and turn our backs on The Other.”"
Well said, absolutely hit home and registered with me. Find ourselves again…we are not in this world for anyone but ourselves…we truly can only rely on ourselves and protect ourselves and never let anyone have control over ourselves or our lives…. easier said than done once “Sucked in ” by an S/P/N….but they key is to STOP. CHANGE DIRECTION. AT ALL COSTS OR IT JUST GETS WORSE… GET OUT AND STAY OUT… Where theres a will theres a way!!!!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:55am
Rune says:
James: I had a long conversation with a clinical psychologist who does neurofeedback that literally changes the pattern of brainwaves that we use when we think. Diffuse anxiety can be seen in a “brain map” — an image that is constructed from the frequencies and amplitudes of those frequencies in our brains. Each of us has our own fundamental “signature” of a brain map, but a good clinician can see, from the patterns, indications that point to a person living in a high state of anxiety, such as living with PTSD.
“Talk therapy” can certainly be helpful as we’re trying to get back on our feet, but it really gave me a greater awareness of the level of this trauma when I realized that I was dealing with neurological as well as psychological damage.
About a year ago I read of a study done on high-school girls who suffered concussions while playing school sports. The study looked at the recovery time and the outcome of recovery depending on how quickly the girls resumed their academic load. The girls who didn’t go back to school for awhile, and gave their brains a long rest, recovered well. The girls who rested for a week or two, and then took up a reduced level of academic work also recovered well. The girls who jumped back into the schoolwork full force did not recover as quickly, and even suffered permanent long-term damage. A concussion is a trauma to the brain. I believe that we have also suffered trauma to the brain and should learn from these other examples.
As I said in my previous post, I found this in my notes from that conversation with the psychologist: “““Trauma from interacting with a psychopath is not just psychological, it’s NEUROLOGICAL!”
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:55am
learnthelesson says:
Rune,
You are so right about the trauma to the brain theory… I recently met the head of neurology at Childrens Hospital in Philadelphia. My son participated in his latest study/research regarding EXACTLY what you stated above…while my son was in the hospital recovering from his skull fracture and concussion I allowed him to partake in the program (lots of computer generated tests memorization, cognitive recollection, number sequences, etc… my son then had to return six weeks after to “retake the test”…. the results for some were not the same as my sons…others tests scores were markedly lower after the six weeks (indicating that the healing time/down time necessary after a concussion VARIES for SO MANY…and the study showed that many jump back into sports, education, and thier lifestyles WAY TOO SOON…leading to other complications (inability to focus, ADHD, learning problems…) THE BRAIN NEEDS TIME TO HEAL. Not only from blunt force but from forceful S/P/N’s that poison our system with their toxic ways!!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 12:05pm
Rune says:
Bopeep: I understand. I went through something similar with someone who was destroying things behind my back. People don’t want to believe that it’s possible, but I absolutely know that it is.
And I know that it’s “unbelievable” that your mother would treat you this way, but I also know mothers who are like that. (I hope you know that her lack of caring is because SHE is lacking, not because you are unworthy.)
Your story is heartbreaking. I want to believe that there is some solution other than you going back into this “spider’s” web. I fear for your future, and for your children.
Is there any chance that you could find help through domestic violence resources? I know you may not have thought of your situation that way, but perhaps someone in that area might understand your story. With your 5 children, you may qualify for services that can help you get back on your feet. I know that it’s hard to consider that, but the alternative of going back with the S is so frightening.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 12:09pm
a_real_wife says:
Janes! Whoa, there – I like it – the “dating Psychos” site – whoo whee – there are so many of them listed…(like WE didn’t know that.) I like the layout of the site as well as the fact that you can report them, and upload a pic.
Great link! Thanks
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 1:40pm
Skippy says:
Bopeep–I’m so very sorry to hear about your struggles and betrayal. It is truly remarkable what havoc sociopaths are able to wreak, without any consequences to them.
There are some wonderful people on this site who have been through similar things and they have excellent, practical advice to give; I hope you’re able to find not only solace and support here, but pragmatic strategies for your painful, scary situation as well.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:18pm
Tilly says:
Bopeep:
Welcome! You are in with a chance! Because you have found the place where there are many just like you and we have “made it” out.
First you need to get knowledge. (Read the archives). Whilst doing that you need to plan your escape. Why?
Because if you go back to him (on any level), you will lose, (in this order):
1. Your sanity
2. Your children
3. Your life.
A shelter is a billion times better than having that happen, don’t you think? Shelters are not as bad as you think. They are very temporary and they will give you the means to get up on your own and with out him.
If you look to him for security, you know in your hear it is committing suicide. He will give you the opposite of security.
If you can’t do it for yourself. Then do it for your kids. Go to a shelter with all the kids and give up work and get a woman there to help you make a plan to get rid of him out of your life. I am deadly serious. It will only be temporary discomfort. You MUST get out to survive. We have all been through it. And we got out and got “secure”, kids’ n all.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:22pm
Tilly says:
P.S. The pain killers are not killing your children’s pain. And
They are just making you be “behind the eight ball” because you are not alert to the devastation going on around you. They are making you dull and zombie like. You need to be able to think ahead. Go to your doctor and ask him about anti depressants and what you should really be on.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:27pm
redheeler says:
Dr. Leedom-
Were any attempts made to reverse the victim posture through training or re arranging the male dominated environment? Did the depressed mice attract more abuse because of their submissive nature and posturing? Did the posture alone make the dominant males combative?
I teach the abused dogs I receive boundaries immediately. Allow consequences for violating boundaries, rewards for respecting me, themselves & other pack members. The results are exciting. They begin to mature rapidly-the part of their development that appears to have gotten arrested from abuse. They lose the downtrodden posturing and traits that develop fear biters. When they show signs of self respect, the more alpha-type members of the group begin to treat them differently. Ultimately, the alphas lose interest and seek out other entertainment.
I learn much from the social order I see the dogs forming with each newcomer. In all fairness-they teach me.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:34pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
redheeler-
I too have learned a great deal from dogs. Yes the state is reversable in an otherwise healthy animal. What I found in my own research was that untreated diabetes mellitus produced the defeat state. There is a strong endocrine basis to it- the stress hormones which are elevated in diabetes, cause the defeat mentality.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:49pm
christie lee says:
Hello….I truly love my S as well, and I was the last in a long line of his victims. Knowing this does not take away the pain of knowing that I was blind to it all….I feel as dumb as a box of rocks. and I seemed to have lost my ability to just “be myself” People who have not seen me in years have asked me what is wrong, when I thought I was acting normally. Will this bastard always show on me? My daughter, who is 25 told me that I have not been the same since a man I loved died 5 years ago. I have to wonder if having that tragedy happening in my life so long ago lead me right into the arms of my S. I know that having love in my life is important, but my desire to be loved seems to have left me blind as a bat. I hate how I feel, I need so much to be able to get back to a point where I do not feel afraid to take chances. I cannot breathe. All I do is sleep, even though he is always lurking in my dreams, hurting me still. He has shot me dead three times and I awake even more afraid. I want him gone!!!!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:52pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Dr. Leedom,
Whenn I was in family medical practice, part of my job was to do the diabetic teaching and monitoring for the clinic, and frankly, I did a much better job than the physicians, because I took much more time to work with the patients.
I never thought of it that way, but I can see you are right that untreated DM I or II (or very poor control for whatever reason) does cause a depression and/or a defeat mentality.
My late husband had type II and was NOT compliant, I actually adjusted his medication daily as he would just NOT eat like he was supposed to and by CONTINUAL MONITORING I kept his HA1-C well controlled, but I could TELL when his sugar was “out of whack” very much by his mental and emotional behavior….he was cranky as a bear because his sugar was out of control, I always thought it was because he “felt bad” and when a person doesn’t feel well physically, they are cranky, but I think it was more than just “feeling bad”—-gooooood point!
I realized that I was taking responsibility for HIS health, but I figured in the end, it was easier than him having a stroke, losing his kidneys or feet….and he did cooperate with being tested 4-8 times a day. LOL
Redheeler, Dogs DO teach us a great deal don’t they?!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 3:03pm
Tilly says:
Christie lee:
You need to go for a long time without a partner, so that you will eventually be able to attract someone who is healthy, ie mentally and emotionally.
You are not ready to “take chances” and your “desire for love” is unrealistic. You have the Cinderella syndrome big time and you are looking for romantic love that never lasts long. And is usually needy and selfish.
It doesn’t work that way.
You can get loved here, although it may not be the sort you want, it is the sort you need. Its called tough love.
But its real love. Not pretend love like a psychopath or cluster B’s love. Its conditional. The condition is that you look at yourself and your desires and take responsibility for both. There is no big tit in the sky for us to drink off here. But there is a lot of help through God’s Grace in the disguise of other survivors.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 3:06pm
learnthelesson says:
Christie Lee,
Im sorry for your loss 5 years ago…if you were unable to fully recover from the loss than perhaps your vulnerabilities were heightened at the time of meeting the S and he may have taken full advantage of where you were in your own life.
Many of our own desires to be loved seemed to have left us blind as a bat too…What I am learning is TO BE LOVED BY MYSELF, TO LOVE MYSELF first and foremost…Not is a selfish way, but in a rewarding and fulfilling way that I never need to yearn to be loved..but able to allow love into my life when there are no red flags or dangerous insecurities on my part…
Sleeping too much may be a sign of depression so you may want to look into that. Once you go through the process and begin to focus on Christie Lee and what Christie Lee needs and wants ( cuz it certainly isnt a BAD MAN BACK in your life)…but once you figure out if you are depressed or if you are staying in a place of the past too long, or if you need to talk and share what you are feeling, once you start to get answers about yourself your load will feel lighter and lighter.
You were involved in a toxic relationship so everything is off balance. Maybe start a journal and continue to read the blogs here and look inward to what it is Christie Lee wants and deserves. You have yourself, your children, your life…he was a bad man who is gone…he wont “show on you” when you are ready for him to stop taking up space in there!
Hang in there…keep sharing your story and your journey…you are going to be ok…it just takes alot of time and self TLC!!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 3:12pm
learnthelesson says:
The Hypoglycemic Syndrome – Insulin Resistance (IR) – is a common factor associated with mood disorders. Unstable blood sugar levels affect to supply of biological energy to the brain which depends entirely on proper energy levels to manufacture the feel good neurotransmitters, such as serotonin. This supply is disrupted when a person suffers from IR. A brain starved of proper levels of sugar sources will trigger the release of adrenaline and other stress hormones, that are responsible for most symptoms of “mental illness”.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 3:16pm
Rosa says:
Tilly:
“There is no big tit in the sky for us to drink off here.”
I love your one-liners!!!! You are cracking me up again today!!
P.S. Who needs alchohol with comedy like this?!?!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:09pm
learnthelesson says:
Tilly,
I just read your above post to Christie Lee, I think I went to write my post to her at about the time you posted… while I think we were both trying to express the same support and advice to Christie Lee…you have the best WAY WITH WORDS….next time Im out looking at the constellations I am going to proclaim there is no Big Tit In The Sky…so dont bother looking for it…EVER!!! Enjoy your spot on posts!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:11pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Christie Lee,
My husband was killed in a plane crash july of 2004, I too suffered and wanted “love” and boy did I get “it”—in the form of a psychopathic man that I fell for, HOOK. LINE AND SINKER! I SWALLOED IT WHOLE! After 8 months I kicked his sorry arse to the curb, but cried and cried and felt like I would be “lonely forever” but you know, here I am, almost 5 years out and not a man in sight that i would have on a platter, baked, with an apple in his mouth, and you know what, I am NO LONGER LONELY. I still have the memories of my good times with my husband who is gone, and I am HAPPY IN THE NOW, happy with myself (most of the time! LOL) and not at all “needy” and you know, if I never find another man to love that I can respect and loves me back, it is SURE BETTER THAN LOWERING MY STANDARDS AND TAKING ON A LOSER!
Hang in there Christie Lee, we can be WHOLE without a man! (((hugs)))))
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:15pm
christie lee says:
I think you all may have misunderstood my “taking chances” I am not looking for a man…I just need to be able to talk to people without fearing that they may have ulterior motives of some kind. I think that the part of me that has been lost (or at least is in hiding) is the stuff that friendships are made of. I am no longer willing to open up to anyone out here, be they man or woman. I have no idea why I fear this, I am/was normally outgoing and a fun person to be around…which is, the more I think about it, the reason I am in the position I am in right now.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:50pm
christie lee says:
P.S. Thank you all for the comments and hugs
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:52pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Cristie Lee,
I suggest you try to be that outgoing and fun person you are and now make sure others EARN your respect and trust and loyalty and friendship. I have had to make adjustments regarding how I view “the world” and “others”…Instead of “fearing” others… I just have the tools now and am more aware that I HAVE A SAY, I HAVE A RIGHT, I HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROTECT MYSELF…
No more ….being with Mr. Nice Guy/Mr. Guy Playing “The Forever Card” who simultaneously ALSO swindles me or asks for “favors” or loans or does odd things that makes my stomache churn or leaves me feeling lonely and sad or uncomfortable along the way or ever tries to physically or emotionally hurt me… WE DONT HAVE TO TAKE IT…. WE ARE OUR OWN PERSON AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO STOP AND CHANGE DIRECTION….
When you put yourself out to others in your life…make sure they are treating you right…with respect and kindness and that they earn all of your wonderful positive attributes based on their actions not just words…
No more just Giving it away…. if the balance isnt there….toss em to the RED FLAG BIN….
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:05pm
christie lee says:
Fine then, maybe I will go to Bingo tonight, but I am bringing my big brother with…..gotta start somewhere, right? Love to all…and thank you
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:12pm
redheeler says:
Dr. Leedom-
If the state is reversible, in an otherwise healthy animals, then it would be true for humans, correct? I understand how stress releases brain chemicals that are damaging, but are they permanent or long lasting? Is it possible to counteract the damage or length of time by doing what the brain specifically needs to release endorphins or other dormant brain chemicals. Are there any studies on this? My thinking is healthy humans can control their brain chemicals without the use of medication if we get the educated help. Use the correct methods for the chemical(s) that are lacking. In my case, the dormant bonding chemical(s) that aren’t functioning. Any book or article titles will be greatly appreciated. If that little mouse can be brought back to life, so to speak, then its a reality for the healthy human. The possibilities are endless……
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:25pm
redheeler says:
Dr. leedom-
Didn’t mention that I just invested in the holosync by centerpointe program. I believe there is something to this with steady use and application.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:39pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Christie Lee….
B I N G O!!!!!! Thats was the best post!!! Just go with ZERO expectations except ONE – TO HAVE FUN. You yourself…sit there and smile and concentrate on the game and be in the moment with your brother. The goal is to start to have a great time with the most amazing person in your life… YOURSELF!!! If others want to join along they can..as long as they earn your friendship, etc…. But for tonight its just about you getting out, taking a deep breath and believing in yourself again. We dont need anyone else to make us happy, we create our own happiness….S/P/N’s BRING US DOWN AND NEARLY KNOCK US OUT FOR THE COUNT WHEN WE GET CAUGHT UP IN THEIR TOXIC WAYS!!!
HAVE FUN!!! ENJOY!!! BE IN THE MOMENT!!! YOU GO GIRL!!! TOWANDA
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:41pm
Ntmare says:
christie lee says:
I just need to be able to talk to people without fearing that they may have ulterior motives of some kind. I think that the part of me that has been lost (or at least is in hiding) is the stuff that friendships are made of. I am no longer willing to open up to anyone out here, be they man or woman. I have no idea why I fear this.
I don’t think I fear it more like rather not bother. Having spent some time in the company of an S or P, Makes you see alot more then their creepy little world. Makes you look around at work or your kids friends,neighbors. Seems half of the world is cheating and lying. although not all of them are S&P’s. Somewhere in our life time loyalty and trust took a major nose dive. But hey Stats conclude We have them out numbered. Can still find 1 in a million among the dime a dozens. Bingo!!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 6:14pm
Stargazer says:
I have a situation that has come up recently where I immediately went into victim mentality. I was devastated to find out that one of the main teachers at the new massage school I’m applying to is good friends with a guy I once dated briefly who turned out to be a real dog. (What are the chances? **face to palm**) The new teacher did not know this and gave me an “update” of my ex teacher’s situation and how he was living with his girlfriend of 6 years. I did the math. It was only 3 years ago we stopped seeing each other. He had told me there were no other women in his life at the time. I realized on the spot that he had lied to me. Needless to say, I was very pissed. But I didn’t want to show it to the new teacher who had no idea. So I went home and just crashed. I felt–and still feel–so angry and used. But then I had a friend and a counselor mention that I could just set a limit and ask the new teacher not to update me any more on the old teacher. That had never occurred to me. It seems that I can just change the way I think about something, and suddenly I feel stronger again.
Good article. Poor rats. If they’re not being fed to snakes, they’re suffering for human benefit.
In fact it never occurred to me that I could still go to the new school and just ignore or minimize the effect the old teacher will have at that school. Immediately, I stopped feeling like a victim and now feel like I have the choice.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 7:47pm
Stargazer says:
Oops I meant to delete that last paragraph. I wish we had an edit button.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 7:48pm
henry says:
Star – I was talkin to a person that knew my X and he said “oh yeah he has two kids’ %^^%$$$%^&*( I have not even let my mind go there – that just can not be true – he was with me 3 years and I new him 2 years before that and kids were never mentioned – so apparently this person was talking about someone else or he was just like my X and was having a good time f–kin with my mind…..So I have decided if my x was nothing but a big lie then I pronounce him dead – I never knew him – who? nah I never met him – so dont tell me nothing more – my feeble brain cant take it…..
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:22pm
Stargazer says:
Wow, Henry, that doesn’t surprise me about your ex. Is there any way you can avoid talking to people who knew/know him? I usually give my bad exes (of which there are a few) “custody” of the friends and common acquaintances. I really don’t want to know what they’re up to.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:36pm
henry says:
Star – This was about a year ago and I just could not wrap my brain around it. Yes I avoid people who knew him. We did not have any friends in common. He did not have any friends period, all his friends are new. My point was, the less we know the better off we are, dont ya think? I was responding to your situation – BOINK~~~!!!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:59pm
Stargazer says:
Was that boink for me? I hope not; I’ve had a rough enough week! lol That was a really awkward situation I was in at the new school. It took me by surprise.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:11pm
bopeep says:
Dear All…Thank you for your comments..I am not used to people understanding this situation…even had friends drop me stating my life was too high drama for them to deal with..some friend huh! I NEVER chose this position…makes one very sorry to have been a trusted good person. I did look into a couple of domestic shelters and they listened and didnt really get the whole sociopath thing…This website is amazing…and with all the self doubt I go through sometimes…I just can’t believe how many of us are here. It’s hard even though I am a victim of a SP that such evil exists..but I do know it very well. People dont understand this…they think its a simple just leave…I wish it were that simple…but I will continue to read more and more to empower myself to totally get out..but its hard to lose everything you ever worked for then explain to your children what has happened…I always wanted them to be proud of me…I’ve always been a single mom…giving them a decent life..now what..Mommy trusted a guy and lost everything…Its horrifing But again I will try to learn more and work on a plan “B” to get out of this…thanks so much
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:28pm
OxDrover says:
Dear BoPeep,
I’m so glad that you landed here, if there is ONE place in the world to get good information and support from people who DO understand what you are talking about, it is HERE. READ and learn! Welcome!!! You are in a safe and healing place.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:43pm
christie lee says:
BoPeep….I too have friends and family who stare at me in disbelief and look as though they want to go screaming into the night at the mere mention of my situation. I have found that here at Love Fraud I can just say what I need to say. I feel myself getting stronger and more empowered just by showing up here. Stay strong, Peep
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 12:28am
christie lee says:
P.S. I bingo’d tonight !!
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 12:30am
jackie56 says:
Hi everyone,
After an unsatisfactory 1st marriage of 26 years and 6 yrs alone I was courted by and married a man with NPD. It lasted 5 years in total. Things finally blew up when I found his porn/swinger/internet activities. Finding a highly qualified therapist who was also a psychologist was an enormous help. I was 58 years old and had lived not recognising my patterns til then. The therapist diagnosed NPD immediately and guided me into recognising the need to leave.Being codep ‘victim’ I didn’t realise fully that was an option. He’s helped me through all that was involved including dealing with the trauma bonding/victim stuff the lot. What he has done most of all is teach me to put myself and my need first. So 18 months after leaving I have therapy/meditate/ work at 12 step for codep/read and I enrolled in an art programme. I am practising asking for what I want from family and friends. I am still tied to the NPD becuase he is stalling the marriage settlement – holding onto everything and avoiding selling the house – its easy to undermine that in this economic climate. This summer I am moving back to my old town to face him and to be active around selling our home – I could not have done this a year ago. Letting go of victim mentality – is very hard because when I was in it I couldn’t see it – thank god for one good friend who encouraged me to look hard at the marriage and the therapist wwho is helping me get out from all this.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 2:24am
Nolife says:
Hi all,
I am not exactly new to this site, been reading whatever Donna sent. It has been helpful to understand why things happened to me and that I wasn’t alone (not that I wish for anyone to encounter what I had been thru).
I have never been active because I never see myself as a victim. Reason is I have been suppressing those memories. They creep up once in awhile but I live on with my busy life just the same. I simply could not understand that I could fall into such trap, twice. I run a company of 170 employees and if they were to know, where will I stand? Will I command the same respect?
To be honest, I am not that strong, I have thought of ending my life to not feel the pain anymore. But I surround myself with my family & friends, so that I would not do silly things. I probably won’t coz I have been living alone just fine. I kept telling myself that it’s not worth dying for these con men.
Physical torture, mental abuse,and financial drainage with two different men. How stupid can one get? Some said I was desperate for love but I was not even looking. One of them, I know by doing charity promoted by a friend. I thought they are kind, love arts, animals,kids, and really good people….
Why do I attract them? What’s wrong with me? I know now.
Sorry for the rants, was feeling a bit down due to another deceptive relationship. I do look like the defeated mouse now. I don’t know if I have the strength to carry on sometimes. So tired that I wish to not wake up after I sleep…
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 6:37am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Hi, jackie56…welcome. Glad you’re here. Glad your therapist seemed to “get it”. Hope you can get the house sold and the settlement done…and be careful “facing” him…keep yourself safe.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 6:40am
OxDrover says:
Dear Nolife,
I’m glad you are here. I think most if not all of us were “defeated mice” at one point or another, but we are working hard to overcome that mentality. It IS difficult to do, but it is WORTH IT in the end! We can regain our power, we CAN regain a life.
I strongly suggest you read “Women who love Psychopaths” as it will answer your questions about WHY YOU….and you omay be suprised to ofind out that it is because you have so many good qualities and so much stlrength! Hang on! Keep comming here and reading and learnign, and I am so glad you are here, this place is a HEALING PLACE. God bless you, and my prayers for you.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 6:46am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Nolife…welcome. Rants are ok here. Take care of yourself, rest when you can, and rant when you want. You’ll get respect here…glad you’ve been reading, and you’ll find more friends here to surround you.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 6:52am
bopeep says:
Dear Nolife….You do have a life and you should get more help…I know how you feel..believe me. It is hard.I dont know what is going to happen in my future but you managed to create such a big business…you are smart. My business (what is left of it ) consisted of about 16 employees…they all knew my situation and they have no respect for me.That has created an anger in me to prevail somehow…I just dont know yet. I also ALWAYS choose the wrong men. I am hoping to get insight on this website…it seems to be a big problem and I am finding out there is alot of support here..with people that not only “get it” but lived it and somehow actually survived it. I want to learn how too…You are right….NOBODY is worth dying over…living is the best revenge. Keep on researching here and get some professional help. You must be smart to have achieved such a big company! Pull out that strength and run it by us..We’ll help.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 7:23am
Nolife says:
Thanks OxDrover & Jim
There is really no understanding of sociopath in Asia. It’s hard for them to understand what is going on with me.
I am grateful to Donna for waking me up from my “dream” about my ex. If it’s not for this site, I might be still in the misery loop.
It’s up and down for me, at times, I set goals to get my MBA, volunteer at Nepal, and go contribute in woman issues etc. But there’s lapses. I feel weak at times. I am one that believes anything is possible and that there’s good in everyone. I don’t know how to change that beliefs. I used to be such risk taker. Now, I have lost that fighter’s spirit.
Thank you both for the kind words
It’s late, and I should leave my office soon. Thank you once again.
P.S. News like Air France 447 gets me down. Sometimes I fear reading news, they all seem so depressing.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 7:24am
Tilly says:
Thankyou LTL and Rosa,
Its so nice to come home to warm words and kind hearts. I worked so hard today, I am exhausted but happy. Catch the hugs I am sending all my lovely survivors((((hugs)))))xoxoxox Stay strong.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 7:42am
Nolife says:
Dear bopeep,
I wish to be wise than smart. I do not wish to run this business if it has not been for my dad. I was more successful when I was working in Norway. But I have see this company from 30 to 170 and put a lot of hours running it. It actually hurts a lot of my relationship because my priority is my family.
None of my employees know about what happened to me, except for my PA, which I let go. I am sorry to hear about your situation. But most important is not to show anger in front of your employees. You have to stay calm and take back your command. Lead them, show them directions and let them know you are still in charge. If you are close to them, let them know that everyone makes mistake including you and me.
I hope you pull thru this period. I know it’s tough in USA right now. But I believe you are smart and strong enough to get thru it. Thank you for your supportive post and I hope I could return the kindness in time to come
Take care. Let’s learn together.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 7:47am
learnthelesson says:
Nolife says
“To be honest, I am not that strong” IN POST ONE.
Nolife says in SECOND POST…
“I wish to be wise not smart. None of my employees know about what happened to me, except for my PA, which I let go. But most important is not to show anger in front of your employees. You have to stay calm and take back your command. Lead them, show them directions and let them know you are still in charge. If you are close to them, let them know that everyone makes mistake including you and me.”
Learnthelesson says…
YOU are stronger and wiser than you are able to see right now…it will take time and an abundance of self-love (which takes the least out of you) to give yourself your all. You were giving to the wrong people – give to yourself, slowly, steadily, easily…time, attention, goodness, smiles and confidence…we all do this for so many others and NOT OURSELVES…Self-awareness is strength and wisdom combined.
Nolife said:
” I have thought of ending my life to not feel the pain anymore”
So many of us have shared these raw emotions…and so many of us come to realize while that is one way of ending the pain there is another…more wise and more strong…making the choice to “end the pain” with the unbelievable power of our minds and spirits…CHOOSE to wake up happy…just say what the heck…and try it… when those eyes open just make the conscious choice to roll out of bed happy…skip to the coffee maker if you must ( laugh at yourself or cry of ridiculousness along the way) I dont care…the point is the CHOICE is all ours…we can choose sadness and disgust and all the negativity “Mr. Not So Wonderful” left us with or we can let that all go when we are ready and choose to live in the moment (without the losers memory in it)….YES IT IS EASIER SAID THAN DONE…but once we go through the process of loss and come out of the fog we can ALL MAKE THE CHOICE TO TURN IT AROUND…the power is ours in our minds and spirits. Our entire being is drained and bruised and damaged, but not irrepairable (sp??) just takes time and a WILLINGNESS to want to pick ourselves up and carry on. Life is worth living NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE IS IN IT OR ISNT, its worth living because it is a gift to each of us, one we get to choose how our actions and reactions are going to be….lets choose (as Nolife says) “WISELY”….
Choose to make and create happiness in your life. Its in all of our hands. I am going to skip across the room to the teapot now just for a laugh!!!
Hang in there Nolife, there is newlife waiting for you around the corner!! Take care!
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 8:59am
Rune says:
Nolife & Bopeep: Did you think that those men picked YOU? That they deliberately “acted” their way into your trust?
You both sound like strong, intelligent, capable women who are doing work and taking responsibility that is far more than most people would handle.
Some of these predators deliberately look for the strong, capable women, and they do a good job of PRETENDING to be trustworthy and loving.
Because they can lie so very, very well, we can’t see the truth. Even professionals can’t always see the truth.
I think the first thing for each of you is to realize that it wasn’t your fault. It wasn’t because you were weak, or chose to have blind spots. The book “Women Who Love Psychopaths” helped me understand so much. I have also been in management, and I have run large projects and carried a lot of responsibility. I know now that some of the men deliberately go after women like us just because they want to tear us down. Let’s not let them win!
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 9:12am
bopeep says:
Dear Rune…Thank you so much for the comment…again to have people who understand this situation is amazing to me ..since I got rejected by friends and family who didnt want to deal with my bad…but was always on my side when life was going well. I am sure these men sought me out, but I do have a weakness of wanting to be loved from my mom who is and always has been self absorbed and selfish. I strive to be the opposite of that, I strive to be completely different to my children and make them my #1 priority in my life. My mom cared about other people and how she appeared to them. My need to be loved left a window open for bad to enter. I used to believe that if I am a trusting, kind , unselfish person then the karma would come back to me…thats why this situation is so hard to accept. I , deep down , don’t blame myself. My big question is…as much as I want to change the way I am …it seems hard and in a big way I like the person that I am…I always try to do good things for others…so how do I harden and not compromise that part.
I am still a hair away from losing my business, my home, my other home, my car (he had it set up in the corp. so I would lose that too!) Even though I am suppose to move my family into his home…I do have plan B in the works…but that will take time because I am going to have to hide money. Did any of you lose everything already? How do you survive that? If I was alone there would be no problem for me with that..but I do have 5 kids…so it is hard. I am also in my late 40’s so physically it is getting harder to work a million hours.I am amazed there are people out there that are survivors…God bless you..I am soooo happy for you. I will continue to read lots, and I will pick up that book. I hope to be writing here someday as a survivor. I cant believe with all the talk shows on tv…nobody does a story on victims of sociopaths!!!!! Its way more devastating than most of their “horror stories” they cover! Thanks again…each word gives me a tiny bit more strength…God Bless us all
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 10:12am
Rune says:
Bopeep: I lost everything.
I am still here. I am glad that I can help you see your wonderful qualities. Yes, get the book, “Women Who Love Psychopaths,” and you will see for yourself how they pick us out and use us.
I hope you are able to move Plan B ahead. I will watch for your posts. If I can encourage you through this challenging time, helping you survive this predator, then I am gaining back something I lost as well.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 1:54pm
Nolife says:
Thanks Learntheless & Rune,
I know I am in a way better situation than most. I count my blessing that I have only my life saving swindled and got in a huge debt, which I have cleared most of it by now. I do not have any kids, but I am still married to him and trying to get the paper done. So he will not have any entitlement. He promised to do it because he is in the states but he disappeared on me again.
Anyway I keep myself very busy so that I don’t have time to think about what happened. I also stay strong because of my family & friends. I never let anyone see me cry, not even my ex. I always am bubbly & cheerful in front of people, and I cried alone by myself. I am not being a fake, just don’t want people to worry about me. Esp. everyone has their own plate of problems. Anyway in Asia, most of us do not show much emotions. This is our upbringing.
But I find that I am able to express myself freely here, show my weakness, not be ashamed of what happened to me because you guys won’t judge me. I thank all of you for that.
Hopefully, with this outlet to express my pain, I could really heal. I wish I could heal soon so I could truly contribute and be useful again.
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Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 12:27am
Rune says:
“Nolife”: I admire your courage and your strength in all you have done to overcome, and in finding your way here.
You said you are in Asia. I respect your privacy, but I traveled in Thailand and Malaysia and have some understanding of the differences in society.
The fact that you are a woman of such strength and courage out of a society that doesn’t generally respect women says a great deal to me.
I will watch for you, and I hope to see you making great steps forward in your life, and separating yourself from this pain.
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Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 12:42am
Nolife says:
Thanks Rune, I wish the same for you and the rest of the people here
Mostly to those who only read this website and suffer alone. Hope you can find help soon.
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Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 5:47am
jackie56 says:
Hi Folks – I hear the ‘why me?’ I have learned through the therapy exactly why me – I am active, intelligent, capable, high achieving in my career and that is exactly why – someone they can feed off. Chuck in my deeply hidden insecurity and longing for a loving relationship and its easy to fool me. The answer is – don’t get into any kind of close relationship until you learn how to guard yourself. My therapist advises I don’t get involved with anyone and drop all expectations of a loving intimate relationship – for a long time possibly forever given my age. Sad but safer – while I long for it I am vulnerable to the predator type. I need to feel contented with my life as it is and on my own with a good circle of family and friends to support me – to reduce that neediness from my childhood. Facing the reality of being on my own for the last 25 years of my life is sad but not as sad as the thought I might get conned again. I’ve learned the truism – ‘if it (he)seems to good to be true then it (he)probably is…’
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Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 7:27am
OxDrover says:
Dear jackie,
Your therapist GETS IT. I’m 62 and feel the same way, but am now moving on toward being confident and completely OK by myself. I think it is human nature to want a mate, and I had a great one for 20 years until his passing 5 yrs ago, but after his death I was so needy I was hooked by a P…it only lasted 8 months but what a ride, 4 months of bliss, 4 mo of hell, then another 4 months of grief.
ONE is a WHOLE NUMBER, and not just half of two.
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Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 8:39am
sabine says:
Jen 2008
OMG – I’m so broken up about your poor little dog. What a sin! It’s a very good red flag to watch – how people treat animals – I agree.
You must have felt so bad for your little pup – thank god you chose to move on so now both you and he are at peace….
Good for you!
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Friday, 5 June 2009 @ 11:27am
KATYA says:
I found myself being successful and lonely and exactly as you did, I fell for someone who turned out to be a psychopath. I am losing my mind, trying to prove to the court system that he is a sick and manipulative man. While his ex wife and daughter told me of all the lies and all the behaviors associated with the APD, they both refused to come forth to help. I have a toddler with this man. My toddler already once exhibited oversexuality and inappropriate behaviors toward women. Now that he has not seen his dad in 6 months, he is a normal kid. His dad wanted nothing to do with our child after I kicked him out since learning that he had cheated on me with at least two other women repeatedly and never contributed to the household, but took my money instead. Still, I loved the man and tried to convince him to go for therapy and to seek Alcohol counseling. I pushed him too far with my demands and as a pay back he filed a Joint Custody petition. I am looking at thousands of dollars, knowing that this baby is not of much interest to his Dad, and also worrying that he’d do something with my son, to my son just to spite me. Any suggestions?
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Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 10:55am
heavenbound says:
I feel terribly defeated and have that anxiety spinning in my chest and stomach and head. I don’t want to feel this way. I saw an attorney today and was told basically that the agreement that the p and I signed concerning our separation and divorce aren’t worth the paper it’s written on. I don’t understand, I researched the library (i’ve only started using the internet in the last few months) and got copies of local court papers, I used a real agreement also signed by a local judge so ordering, and came up with what I believed to be a legitimate agreement format and we put in our settlements as we agreed.
Since talking to the attorney, I have been going through forms for my area on the internet and I still see a legitimate document. All the attorney would say is its just not good. It has to be … I’ll never get him to sign a fair agreement again and a contested divorce with him (oh please, God, no!)… They will order him a whole lot more visitation and I can’t prove how dangerous he is to my son… there is so much more but I fear him stumbling onto this sight and recognizing who I am.
I feel like my little bubble has been popped and strangely I feel like I’ve just spent a day with the p. One of my low days i guess. I feel like the mouse in the picture above.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:07am
skylar says:
http://www.brothersbloom.com/
click on “video” and then on “card trick”
I just got this movie and will watch it tomorrow. I can’t wait. It’s about us, only this time WE WIN.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:29am
heavenbound says:
I’m sorry to say I have no sound on my computer and don’t have a clue what is being said.:( But you said “only this time WE WIN.” That sounds really good to me. I’ll try to pull it up on my sons computer tomorrow. Thanks for responding to me Skylar.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:50am
geminigirl says:
Dearest heavenbound, Im not sure that I understand your situation and probably cant be of much help in the legal sense, but I just wanted you to know something. That something is that you are not alone with your friends on LF. Weve all been there and suffered various degrees of torture from our narcs and Ps. I want you to know that Im praying hard for you, darling, and sending you the biggest HUG! Try not to spin your wheels, have a bubble bath, drink some wine, eat some chocs. ALL THIS WILL PASS. These evil beings seem to be winning, but they NEVER win in the long run, and they are NEVER happy.So, dont feel low,God loves you, and so do we!! Love,{{HUGS!!!}} gem.XX
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 2:07am
heavenbound says:
Geminigirl,
I wish I could print your post. I was really feeling sorry for myself and shut my computer down. I started praying “I don’t know what’s wrong with me Lord, I guess I’m being selfish” before I could finish I found myself turning the computer back on and there you were. I started crying, which is a good thing(i don’t need my bottle blowing, it was getting full!) Thank you so much, I really need your prayers! You are my angel from God. I needed that hug also thank you. I will try not to spin my wheels, which is what I was starting to do. A glass of wine and a bubble bath may be just what I need! Thank you for the reminder that this will pass and God does love me. Sometimes I forget that they won’t win in the long run.
Thank you Geminigirl, I needed every word you said. I can’t thank you enough for you kindness! Please remember my boys is prayer as well. I only share one with the P but I’m pretty sure my oldest’s father is an N, so we could all use a prayer. Thank you so very very much! I will remember you in my prayers as well!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 2:36am
geminigirl says:
Your very welcome, sweetheart! Im so glad you feel a little better! I will go on praying for you, and your boys. “All things work together for good, to those who love God,{you} and who are called according to his purpose”. ALL THINGS!!
God has it all under control, so hand it all over to Him,who is able to do”more abundantly and above all we can ask or think, according to His great and precious promises!!!”Sometimes when I read posts from LF members, God will almost “dictate” what to say to someone like you, a special person who is on His heart.You are that special person so who are you to argue with God? Much Love, and another big {{{HUG!!!}} dear heavenbound!!! love, gem.XXx
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 5:57am
heavenbound says:
I’m handing it back to Him! Sometimes I mess up and take it back from him and like now I have to give it back again! A constant circle I guess! I feel better knowing it is in His hands. “ALL THINGS!!” Yes that is right, Amen! I will not argue with Him! You are very precious gemini, God bless you! Love and hugs and prayers, heavenbound
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 1:15pm
Isabell says:
Tilly,
I too was charged and arrested for a crime my ex committed against me. When I tried to defend myself, I was threatened, and our children were threatened, if I didn’t do exactly as he said. The courts basically had a stance that I was guilty until proven innocent. To give you a better idea of the effect this had on me, my sister so often teases me saying, “You are so squeeky clean, you won’t even open a bag of chips at the store, until you’ve paid for them, for fear the presumption of stealing – integrity to the core.
I was threatened with the expense (tens of thousands of dollars) and subjecting my children to experienced going through a trail, as the primary witnesses against their father, which I could not justify in my mind (they were only 4, 8, and 10), so I pleaded guilty (at the suggestion of my lawyer after pleading not guilty two times.) Promises were made by him to right is wrongs. I was told the record would be whiped clean in a year after attending classes, which is not entirely true; my record is forever tainted.
My ex was then given sanction to stalk, threaten, harass, have others stalk us, destroyed our personal property, broke into my home, and when I called the police for help… he was listed as the victim. Violating my boundaries on my own property wasn’t against the law, especially since he was the victim on record. The authorities did nothing. The only witnesses I had were the kids, I was told they are NOT credible witnesses, and as such we would receive NO proteciton, as my ex only received a mild warning to leave us alone. The kids cried…”Why doesn’t anybody believe us, Mommy?” Even after my ex accausted me, and prevented me from calling the police, which is a felony, I was also warned that attempting to file a report for the purpose of getting a restraining order would make me look bad, and not him. We narrowed our circle, and lived like obediant robots.
Hind sight is an amanzing thing. I was given advice to get a survaillence system to surround my house. I was told to carry a video camera set for one switch away from record in my car. I could not afford the survaillence system (though I look back, and realise that I could not aford NOT getting it, either.) I could not focus on daily rutines, much less manage the process of thinking to always be prepared with a charged video camera set to record, as his acting out was unpredictable; usually coming after a long period of quiet, and even peaceful conversation, that lulled me into believing the nightmare was over. His attacks were always a surprise.
I struggle, even now, with this underlying fear, anxiety, or guilt when I do behave in ways that are proactive for me and the kids. (A symptom of helplessness that has it’s roots firmly planted in my earliest of years.) I had been brainwashed into beliving that self protection was a sign that I was guilty — a sick as this sounds, it is the reality I lived in. There are consequences for self protection…. like an even greater threat of some form of punishment to which I will be unable to protect myself. It’s a never ending cycle we’ve lived in for a long time.
Some say, “… then why don’t you just move to another State. If it were only that easy. I am legally bound to this cycle for another 9 years.
Though, I will say, the tide is turning. Even though I fear the reprocustions of striking the hornets next, and by that I mean, I am not only fighting my ex, but threatening his collective cult like family system and his new wife, who is no doubt an S and had been plotting with my ex to destroy my credability long before I knew that we were on a path of destrcution, of exposre. They conspire together, to poke, prod, and surround my circle of support, leaving me isolated and choked out.
I do believe they began to believe their lies against me, and fully expected that their alledged accusations against me about my behavior would find me out. Well, they were so far from reality, that it backfired.
Though I am still in our home (for how long, I don’t know), he took over control of both of our businesses (a combined value of a 3 million dollars), took our entire savings (nearly half a million), paid no support, and turned the entire (large) family system, the church, and our community against me and the kids. For a time, I did give up, and went into a deep depression.
What pulled me out, was each of my kids made me large cards that listed how they were feeling, what they admired about me, what they missed about me, and what about my depressed behavior scared them. My oldest daughter from another marraige prompted this. As painful as it was, it was an intervention of sorts; we all talked. And, I found the will to get out of my funk, see an old family doctor, got on anti-depressants, and anti-anxiety medication, and began opening up to a new circle of friends from a new church; who immediately rally’ed to support me with the kids activities, projects, homework, and even provided birthday parties for them. (They were used to huge family Birthday parties that ended abruptly, to just us six, without being able to provide a cake. These other families have been my angles. Only one of them understands what Psychopatholgy is about and she is a therapist. The other’s are healthy, loving people.
I had to allow myself to be honest about our circumstances, (I’m full of pride), to trust…and to receive the unconditional love and support these families have given us for the past 4 years. They swear our connection is an equal give and take, and that I offer them as much support, but if you put the generousity side by side, they have given us far more then I will ever be able to repay… and, for the first time in my life, I don’t feel guilty about the imbalance. They are teaching me, and my children that we are worth the effort.
Though, even now, as I prepare for the upcoming trial, I have to fight for the will to be strong, to be protective of me and the kids, to act assertively to sniff out the evidence, and to leave the fear of past threats behind us, or at the very least subdue them as a faint nagging in the back of my mind, to be ignored becuase… we are worth fighting for.
I anticipate at the age of 49, I will be recovering from this past 17 year ordeal (today is our 17 year wedding anniversary) for the rest of my life. I anticipate that I’ll never be whole, but more like swiss cheese and full of holes. And that, in itself, is also, ok — at least according to my current set of friends, who are more like family, then any family experience I’ve ever known.
Tilly…In short (sorry it took so long) I understand. I really do. My warmest hugs to you.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 5:31pm
Isabell says:
Rune..
“Women who love Psychopaths” Thanks for the post, the suggestion. I sorely need such information.
thank you.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 5:37pm
Isabell says:
Heavenbound….
::deep heavy sigh::: I hear you too. I worry about the same thing. How do they seem to know exactly what we are doing, where we are, who we talk to, what sites we visit? It’s spooky.
Even so… Take three deep breaths. And, then, breath out slowly. God is in control. Even if the ex gets more time, then you would deem appropriate, He (God) has a plan for their (your children’s) lives. He will reach them… I promise you. Even if the circumstances are not according to our plan. God knows what He is doing. (And, I say this with resistance, frustration, and years of being proved wrong for my unbelief.)
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 5:49pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
I went to a service agency today to see if they can help me with some of my housing challenges. I have more work to do but I may be able to get my utility bill expunged, and possibly some help with medications that I cannot get covered.
on the way home I stopped in a 2nd hand store and looked around. I haven’t been in there since before the spath’s first fake surgery, and I found myself thinking of that – i was still loving someone then. And I got really angry. I think specifically at the spath for conning me. The anger was acute and lasted for about an hour.
I am always grateful for such clear emotions.
I like the movement from being shamed for what I have let happen, to being angry at her for her choice to abuse me.
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 11:38pm
duped says:
I had that same posture, the one of the rat in the pic…the last time my ex S charged at me, hands out stretched at my throat. That was three years and three weeks ago. I held that posture for about 5 seconds before I snapped and started hitting back! Which I warned on multiple occasions would most likely happen if he kept physically threatening and hurting me.
I made for such a bad victim, I’m surprised he chose me in the first place. For the challenge, maybe?
While I do suffer from PTSD, I am not one to hold on to being a victim. It took me months in therapy to even admit to myself I had been a victim, always looking for the role I played in how I ended up in my situation. Even in the bail admins office, filing for the PFA (right before he came in to serve me the one he had gotten that morning while I was at work; citing that one incident I fought back as him being abused and assorted lies, to include abusing my baby, to bolster his case. When I cited the same incident in a different light, not knowing he’d been in prior, the ADA asked me to show how I hit. I started with my hands up in front just like that rat…and then smacked forward maintaining the posture. She believed me. Guess she’s seen that rat before.) I sat with the other women in there and talked about how we got to where we did. What choices WE made.
On the one hand, it’s important not to get stuck and overly identify with being a victim. On the other hand, if the shoe fits, try wearing it a bit before discarding it. I’m not suggesting wallowing in self pity. But I do think it’s important to accept that, all choices aside, no one deserves to be treated the way an S/P treats people. Some of the kindest, most giving, “good” people make the best “victims”.
Forgive yourself some mistakes and accept , in fact, that person made YOU their victim. Just don’t let them keep victimizing you once you’ve gotten rid of the grip!
Good for you one_step…sounds like you’re taking it as such!
Namaste,
Duped
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 7:44am
one_step_at_a_time says:
thanks duped.
i am having a hard couple of days. up and down on a roller coaster. got an xmas card from my (insert disorder here) father from him and mom. (mom obviously isn’t okay enough to do cards
boxed card. subtle. conflicted about the $100 in it. need it, will keep it. it will keep my phone and internet connection hooked up, which i need for work. but would rather not keep it. he is such a bottom feeder. throws crumbs at me, in every way imaginable. I am beginning to un hook from him. know that it is imperative. I look forward to the next exercise in the BETRAYAL BOND that looks at historical abuse.
not well today. sad and lonely and frozen. HATE my job right now and am sucking at it. which is scaring me, too. some extra guilt – like cranberry sauce to the turkey. little spiral going down.
underlying is that I have to make a few decisions about my housing situation. and i am having a really hard time with it. right now it looks like crappy option a, b or c. it is overwhelming.
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 12:09pm
witsend says:
One step,
The holidays can really make us feel worse emotionally when we are going through an already difficult time.
Having the emotional roller coaster ride is something that is pretty common after removing the trama/drama from our lives. But it is certainly hard to even keep up with our own emotions from day to day. Sometimes it even feels like minute to minute that our emotions can change.
You have alot going on. And I think that you are overwhelmed. I can’t think straight when I am overwhelmed.
Maybe some of what I have done in the past can help you.
For me when I am overwhelmed I really have to STOP. Clear my head.
Then write down on paper a few prioritys. What I DO need to focus on. Maybe 2 or 3. No more. And I make myself only work towards what I listed on the piece of paper. In order. Number one being the first priority.
Often I feel just like you do that none of the options are good. But I pick the best of the options and work towards that.
Once you tend to accomplish one or two of your goals it is easier to move forward. Otherwise you stay stuck in that downhill spiral and feel like you are getting nowhere.
Baby steps….But steps in the right direction.
One step at a time….Just like your name.
One hour at a time….
Break it down so it feels more manageable. One minute at a time if necessary
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 12:34pm
eileen says:
Hey Dupe,
Same feeling here – I think that a sociopath’s life is like a video game. Once they’ve won one level, they go to the next level. “Now I’ve got 3 girlfriends let’s see if I can manage 4″. “Ok, isolated, vulnerable women: done that, boring, too easy; next level: happily married woman/qualified psychiatrist/condolezza rice…”
And yeah sometimes they lose…or at least don’t win as much as they wanted. Well done for fighting back!
One Step – you should frame that gift!!
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 1:21pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
thanks witsend. i have had to break it down to just a few things a day. woefully inadequate to deal with what must be dealt with in the timelines, but it is all i can do, so that i feel like i am succeeding.
the housing thing feels too huge. i did go to a service agency and talk through some options yesterday. the woman was wonderful, but i realized on the walk home i hadn’t really come away with some important questions answered, cause i FORGOT to ask – so, i think i have to put that on my list for today and call her back.
I lay in bed for three hours this am – unable to stop my mind from racing. i kept trying and i kept not being able to. i think i might just say to myself – this is going to be a bad day, and let it be. arthritis is flaring, so there is pain also.
I was expecting that christmas would be hard. there is no money for anything – I am not giving gifts at all. i had decided last year that I was opting out of christmas and would go back to my old celebration of the turning of the season – so i am not sure why i am so upset by my financial lack, possibly because i am so distracted that i can’t enjoy the season regrdless. i think it is that i know that things are going to get a lot worse financially before they get better, and it is frightening the hell out of me.
my grandmother sent me a little gift and i used it to go out and go square dancing as my celebration, it was really nice.
and yes, thank you re the roller coaster. I just had an email from a friend who asked me something about the spath – and I could see that answering cost me something, AND that if I got into talking about it it WOULD distract me from the ick of the roller coaster – and delay my healing.
and unfortunately this ick is part of the healing. i just have a really hard time with it as i have dealt with depression in the past and i so don’t want to go there – and this sure feels like it. but maybe this is temporary – just that when i see ANY manifestation of depression it scares me.
and i don’t need any more fear. i am frozen so much already.
okay – little next step – take work letter to the mailbox.
I have to do a lot of cold calling right now for my work – and it is is soooo hard. i don’t think it is the right approach for this part of my contract and i understand that the reason i am doing it is because the committee i work with are trying to pass the buck. and i am rebelling against taking the wrong action at the wrong time by the wrong person, as it might hurt the organization in the long term, and makes me feel like a stupid goof in the short term. it is demoralizing.
okay- walk through snow to post box.
thanks agian. i am outrageously isolated, so replies mean a lot.
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 1:23pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hey duped – which one? the clear anger, the money from the disordered father OR the night out sq. danicing?
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 2:01pm
witsend says:
One Step,
Baby steps…You can do this.
Being isolated just makes your situation worse. But isolation is what many of these toxic people do to us. Weather it by actual distancing us from friends and family (miles) or by trashing our reputation (smear) so we can’t reach out to old friends.
The best thing you might do right now is vent here at LF about your x situation and try and not talk about it to your friends as much. Maybe try to talk to them about other things if you can.
I only say this because sometimes our friends get “tired” of hearing about this because they don’t really understand the situation to begin with. Lord knows it is hard to DEFINE exactly what you have gone through and put it into words that people who don’t “get it” can understand.
That is the case with my friends anyways. They care about me deeply but I know they don’t get it….So I have tried weening myself from talking to them about it.
Ick is a part of healing. But ick can be also the place we get stuck to long…. So try to do little things for yourself to de-stress. I know you don’t have extra money but do something relaxing for yourself EACH day. Read, take a bath, watch a program, take a walk….Something to stop your mind from racing. Something to distract you from thinking to much and becoming overwhelmed.
One minute at a time. Write everything important down.
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 2:05pm
eileen says:
I think One Step has such a brilliant way of talking about sociopaths that I can’t imagine anybody being bored!
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 3:33pm
icanseeclearlynow says:
one_step_at_a_time,
I think I’m about at the same point in my healing and recovery as you are. Hold on and remember your username..one_step_at_a_time.
I got an email from an out of town friend this morning asking me if it’s really final between the boyfriend and me. I told this friend the basics of what happened 2 months ago when I left the x N/Spath. Having my friend ask me that question NOW after coming to my senses and feeling all of the devastation, triggered the heck out of me. I choked up, started shaking and closed the email. I couldn’t even reply.
I’m also isolated. My family are all out of town. I have few friends. No one really understands. I lost my house, my car, my money, my job. What little I could do for Christmas this year, is homemade.
I’m also physically completely depleted. I have lost so much weight that I am a stick. I’m a nervous wreck. I have broken out in hives (the last time that happened was 20 years ago..the last time I had contact with my P-mom). I have anxiety attacks and can’t sleep properly, my stomach is a nervous mess and my arthritis has flaired up as well. So, I just want to say, {{hugs}} I know how you feel.
My ex N/S also has and probably still is (I have stopped my hyper-vigilant ‘patrolling’ of his online activity for my own sanity) conducting a vicious smear campaign against me – A lot of it on the web. He, like your ex, also got other’s involved by giving a twisted, projecting, character assasination of me to them (all of it a TOTAL MIRROR of WHAT HE IS) – the stereotypical PITY/VICTIM PLAY of the sociopath. This is exactly how he hooked me in the beginning as well…that and a few other tricks he had up his sleeve.
The added emotional violence of having of the Spath’s duped minions ALSO doing his dirty work is so indescribably shattering. Mine also ‘garages’ all of his exes and uses them. I have had multiple threatening emails and public message board threats to me, by one of his exes. I don’t know if you are still monitoring your exes online activity by proxy. But, when I stopped doing that, it actually lessened my fears. I thought that by checking on him and knowing what he was up to, that I would be safer because I’d know what he was up to. It was having a worse effect on me emotionally though.
It’s INCREDIBLY HARD to not check on him. I feel compelled to almost on a daily basis. He is all over the web like a shark in a swimming pool convincing women left right and center what a poor, poor, loving, hurt abused guy he is. I just thought I’d let you know that for me anyway, it DOES help me not feel violated and threatened when I stay away from anything to do with him. I try to picture him falling off the face of the earth.
As for being isolated, your mind racing and what to do about that. I have the same problem. I am currently living with relatives until I can get social housing, which I am on a waiting list for. It’s tough. When I feel like I’m going to go crazy. I do something constructive that doesn’t involve my brain going around and around.
I clean (small tasks..one at a time). I organize. I bake something. I played a video game with my nephew and I had NO idea what I was doing!! LOL The ONLY video game I’ve ever played was Pac Man. Any kind of hobby or task that involves your hands and isn’t too strenuous can get your mind off the bad feelings.
Go easy on yourself.
That’s what I keep telling myself too
Also, I have a hard time concentrating, so reading for any stretch of time is difficult. Most music is too much of an emotional trigger for me.
However, although I am more of spiritual person than highly religious, I absolutely LOVE inspirational, religious, and gospel music. My fave Christmas music are the most religious songs. They can be so healing to listen to.
I heard this song that is on Jewel’s Christmas CD (wonderful CD btw) and I wanted to share the lyrics with everyone on LF. The song is called “Hands” and I’m sure most have heard it before. I find it very healing to listen to.
Hands
by Jewel
If I could tell the world just one thing
It would be that we’re all OK
And not to worry ’cause worry is wasteful
And useless in times like these
I won’t be made useless
I won’t be idle with despair
I will gather myself around my faith
For light does the darkness most fear
My hands are small, I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
And I am never broken
Poverty stole your golden shoes
It didn’t steal your laughter
And heartache came to visit me
But I knew it wasn’t ever after
We’ll fight, not out of spite
For someone must stand up for what’s right
‘Cause where there’s a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing
My hands are small I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
I am never broken
In the end only kindness matters
In the end only kindness matters
I will get down on my knees, and I will pray
I will get down on my knees, and I will pray
I will get down on my knees, and I will pray
My hands are small I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
And I am never broken
My hands are small I know
But they’re not yours, they are my own
But they’re not yours, they are my own
And I am never broken
We are never broken
We are God’s eyes
God’s hands
God’s mind
We are God’s eyes
God’s hands
God’s heart
We are God’s eyes
God’s hands
God’s eyes
We are God’s hands
We are God’s hands
Merry Christmas to everyone on LoveFraud
Peace & Joy in the New Year
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 3:34pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
I just dropped in and read today’s posts on this thread. I know it’s hard to deal with the emotional stuff, but truly everyone here sounds so good. Being able to talk about it, put words on it, makes it seem almost like the music of this time of our lives.
I wanted to share something that helped me, when I was going through this emotional rollercoaster thing — swinging from grief to anger to anxiety to feeling tough — in the space of a few minutes, it seemed sometimes.
I’d take down a small framed mirror from the wall, get into bed, sitting up with the pillows at my back, bend up my knees to hold the mirror, and have a visit with myself. Somehow this is different than just feeling buffeted by all the feelings. I’d ask myself how things were going, and that was enough to start amazing conversations.
I think that the different feelings come from different parts of ourselves. I sometimes found myself getting into arguments, often really funny ones, with different aspects of me that were fighting with each other. (Like the part that feels like I’m stupid, and the part that feels like a victim, and the part that wants to be spiritual, and the part that wants the rest of us to get serious about the money thing, and the part that’s still romantically yearning.) Getting this stuff out into words, and taking all the bits of me seriously, letting them have their say, seemed to help. And often, they settled things between them, recognizing why each felt the way they did and finding compromises that worked.
I don’t know if this sounds crazy, but there have been periods of my life when I did a lot of this mirror-talking. And some of the things l learned about myself really turned out to be helpful to me and other people.
I’ve had periods of clinical depressions too, and for most of my life, I’ve been scared of any feeling that I fear might send me back into that. In recovering from this relationship with the sociopath, I found another technique to deal especially with feelings that I really didn’t want to have.
That was to deliberately pay attention to them, and turn up the volume. If I had anxiety, I got right inside it and jacked it up, scooting around my mind to find everything that was contributing to it, so they could all yammer at me at the same time.
There was something about this that created psychological distance. There was all the yammering noise, and there was me that was watching it. I even found that I was capable of saying, “Okay, gang, take a break. I’m going to do something else now. I’ll get back to you later.” And just mentally walking away from it.
It didn’t solve the problems. They still had to be dealt with. But it removed the emotional charge from them.
These days, when I’m more… what’s the word? … maybe less fraught all the time, I still get triggered by things. Everyone does. And when it first happens, the feelings come up big, and it’s hard to see anything except through them. But I’ve gotten pretty good now at going, “Oh, what’s this?” And it does the same thing of creating psychological distance. I still feel what I feel, but there another part of me that’s looking at it. And it gives me the opportunity to pay attention to it, and then take a breather from it. Not resolving anything, but just not getting taken over by my nervous system.
I think one of the hardest things in the world is being afraid of how we feel. Or not wanting it. Especially since, I think these feelings are important messages from some part of us asking for attention. So blocking them or denying them is, I think, a bad thing. But we also need to be able to choose when we want to deal with things, even with ourselves. And not let our emotions be tyrants over us, wearing us down and making us even more vulnerable.
I read somewhere that our minds are like our crazy uncles. We have to hang out with them, but we don’t have to believe or do everything they say. I loved it, but I’d adapt to we don’t have to jump every time they bark at us.
Happy holidays everyone.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 8:39pm
eileen says:
@ Icanseeclearlynow: if you feel the urge to look up the sociopath, tell yourself that it’s ok to have that urge but that it’s not very good for you. Find something else to do and decide to do that other thing first – tell yourself, first I’ll do that other thing, and I can always check what the f***er is up to later if I still want to.
Anyway you can’t really know what they’re up to from what they say or write…they’re always lying…so shallow and manipulative…
One step, you sound like you’re doing everything that needs to be done, or at least a fair share – including the work-related phonecalls and posting the letter…it may feel like a pain in the neck at the moment but you’re doing it anyway, so that’s great, well done!
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 8:41pm
OxDrover says:
Happy Holidays, Kathy!
glad you stopped by and hope all is well with you! This article is a good one, and one of my ‘favorite” on LF. I am so glad to see that the new people here hve started to go back through the archives and bring up some of the “good old articles” and that is the name of the game, to read them all so that the ones that will speak to you TODAY are read, and then I try to go back and re-read some of them because the ones that might not have spoken to me a month or six months ago, DO speak to me today because I have grown in the meantime.
It is I think like reading a poem, your moods or place you are puts different meanings to the same words, depending of how you are feeling that day.
Have happy holidays and CELEBRATE our FREEDOM! (((hugs)))
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Wednesday, 23 December 2009 @ 8:46pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
WITSEND – thank you dear woman, you got me through the day. slowly but surely things unraveled a bit, and I got some of the crappy part of my work done.
I talked to a friend tonight – who is going through some heavy things this year, also. He is my closest friend in this town. He had been out with his daughter for dinner and had had some wine and their was a lightness in his voice that I hadn’t heard in a while – we played a bit. it was nice.
I did mention a couple of things about spath one and the Attorney General’s office lawyer who i spoke with – and within about 5 minutes i felt myself on planet pluto – just freaking gone…it was like i tripped off into another SH*TTY plane of existence.
not only do i not want to take my friends there – i don’t wanna go either.
call me baby steps!
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 12:23am
witsend says:
One Step,
Baby steps are still steps in the right direction….That is what is important. Good for you!
Just remember to try and do things broken down like this when you become overwhelmed. It really does make it do-able when you think you can’t possibly put one foot in front of the other.
I hope that you can find something to do before you go to bed at night to de-stress yourself as much as possible. It is so hard to function at all during the day when we don’t sleep at night because we can’t “turn off” all those thoughts running through our heads.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 12:49am
witsend says:
Oh Henry….Are you out there? I want to know how it feels to be everyones hero? Are you blushing yet?
We love you henry.
I laughed at your dog story dragging in “his kill” on the other thread.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 12:53am
henry says:
Oh Wit….Yes I am here and Yes I am blushing.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:02am
one_step_at_a_time says:
ICANSEECLEARLYNOW …THE RAIN HAS GONE…
beautiful song, thank-you.
In my childhood home Christmas music was Mahalia Jackson:
this is an old one, she takes me with her:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
About Compulsoin: i am reading the BETRAYAL BOND, i am sure the library won’t mind all my pencil marks. It is speaking to me. I used to be a smoker. When i gave up tobacco, i took up carbs – in a very serious way. I relate to what they say about addiction in the Betrayal Bond.
It took me many years – about 6 to get through my compulsive eating. I was okay for years. Great for some. Last three have been hard , and GIRL, I CNA’T TELL YOu WHAT THE LAST FEW MONTHS HAVE BEEN LIKE! WE-HOO, I am looking 7 months pregnant. (that’s the stress fat)
anyway – that was a tangent
I see the anxiety i have had since a teen (which i squelched with drugs and tobacco) is very much in relation to the the betrayal bond (got a score of 14 out of 17 on the index). and that makes sense to how i am ‘coping’ now.
I swear, I am going to come out of this better. stronger. more grounded. and more knowing. I have tried to be a good person – beyond all belief, it seems like. And I have taken sh*t in the name of religious values. No f**king more. I need to stand for myself. I know it will take a while to learn (which means practicing) standing for myself but if I can believe in it, I can practice it.
Thank you for your care and sharing. I read your post over many times.
this really stuck me: ‘I try to picture him falling off the face of the earth.’ I immediately pictured the spath i tangled with disintegrating into dust. and it’s interesting, cause it was HER, not one of the pictures she sent me pretending to be someone she isn’t- but the picture of her. I am not a really visual person in terms of what i see in my head….but this image of her turning to smokey dust is a clear and strong image.
More about compulsion: (yah, wo has trouble staying on topic?
I have been thinking about the hormonal and chemical reality of anxiety. I know my adrenal system is messsssed up. I want to protect my body now. and stress and anxiety are killers. literally. so, when i see my anxiety go up in relation to the spath, i am watching and paying attention. i don’t want the anxiety. so i can’t do the action.
I understand the looking. I am compulsive online. period. it is about the freaking trauma and betrayal bond. I work online – just what i need, another addiction that i can’t go cold turkey (ahem) on – like eating. Ahh, moderaton has never been my strong suit. But you are right, it is not good for you. And good for you for stepping back. Keep stepping, keep practicing moving away. The more we do it, the clearer our heads get- for me, the clearer my revulsion is, and I naturally don’t want to go there.
I like eileen’s suggestion – iused to use that for food during my first years of sobriety – but I would WRITE or call someone, and if I still wanted to eat I would. But i would do the life affirming thing first.
Wishing you much healing and a growing sense of possibility and probability that you regain what you have lost and more. We have to use these journeys to grow. we must. this is it. we don’t get more years once we figure it out.
i’ll be around a lot over xmas. hanging with the LF peeps. we’ll talk again.
bestest,
one step
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:05am
witsend says:
Henry,
You deserve the title. I think you made it through alot of peoples worst nightmare of that “unexpected”, unprepared for visit.
And handled it so well….So blush away.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:07am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Hey Witsend!
ty ty for the support. I am a baby in that way – a bit of support for my lolling head goes a loooong way.
detressing is a bit hard at my place- my apt. is toxic – literally, and i have the bedroom window open to be able to breath well at night.. it is hard to relax here.
but i think i will go for a walk around the chilly block and have a hot bath.
or a bottle of gin.
just kidding.
gin is vile icky stuff.
scotch is MUCH better.
baby step, whose, regardless of her silliness, not a drinker.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:11am
henry says:
Ok If not opening a door to a crazy physcopath is heroic I will be hero of the day or week but let’s not get to carried away. It did end alot of emotional crapola I was hangin on to tho.
So maybe I need to trade my three weiner dogs for three pittbull dogs and next time he comes a knockin, I will open dat door~!
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:14am
witsend says:
One Step,
I am going to bed real soon. But I’m glad you mentioned compulsive behavior and how you handled this when you quit drinking.
I think almost ALL of the AA principles can help when dealing with the aftermath of an S/P/N. It is an addiction. And dealing with it as an addiction is the best way to have a sucessful recovery. It is great that you are familiar with all of these tools.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:16am
one_step_at_a_time says:
when i think about the spath i tangled with showing up – there is always pepper spray in my right hand and my machete in my left.
the very same one, that one of her sockpuppets threatened to cut me with.
Yah, right, how can ephemera hold matter!
think my neighbour would bonk her with a trash can lid too.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:17am
one_step_at_a_time says:
WIT – fooood, not boooze. have no stomach for booze. sigh.
I haven’t used some of this in a long time, but i was going through some women for sobriety stuff tonight (trying to file that mess of papers on my desk) and was going to pitch it, but i think it is worth a look again.
goodnight.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:20am
one_step_at_a_time says:
HENRY – given the pee damage that three weiner dogs can do, I’d be shakin’ in my boots.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:22am
witsend says:
Henry,
I like the pit bull idea…But you can’t trade in your 3 weiner dogs….
My dog, ever since he hurt his back is so spoiled. Right now he is sleeping on my couch. He isn’t allowed on the couch but when he was hurt I babied him so much and he is still milking it for all it is worth. And he is fine now but he doesn’t like the hardwood floors to sleep on? Go figure?
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:25am
one_step_at_a_time says:
EILEEN – Thanks for the support, and ANY time you want to poke fun at spaths, I’ve your girl!
pointy words or stix; makes no difference to me.
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:26am
one_step_at_a_time says:
KATHLEEN -
WOW! Control all>copy>print
best,
one step
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:31am
henry says:
Wit Just let him have the couch, you can buy a new one some day. One time my N mother came to my house and said she would buy me some new cushions for my lawn chairs if I would not let the dogs get on them. I said No thanks I dont want cushions my dogs cant get on.
Back to the pitt bulls I have thots of s-ex up a tree with three pitt bulls sitting there licking their chops. I would get my vidio camera and send you all a copy…..sometimes I crack myself up….oh well…
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 1:35am
witsend says:
Henry,
I do Henry….He now has control of the couch. He even let me sit there with him yesterday..LOL. When he first started to do this if I gave him a “look” he would get off the couch. Then after awile that didn’t work but if I went to sit on the couch he would get down and go lay on his soft chair. Yesterday we just all sat on there together. My 2 dogs and me watching TV. Mind you this isn’t a full sized couch it is love seat sized.
Good thing I don’t have a boyfriend. He would have no place to sit….Well, unless he wanted to sit in the dogs soft chair. Ha,
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 11:12am
OxDrover says:
Dear Wit,
AFter years of saying (and meanign it) no more dogs in the house, I adopted this Jack Russell from a friend who had to rehome it so she could move and hide from her P x husband, couldn’t afford to take care of the dog. he is a love, but very needy, so sleeps with me…under the covers in the winter, and on a little bed of his on top of the cvoers in the warmer months.
The cat of mine we had to bring in the house to protect her from C’s Psychopathic Now-outside cats is now the queen of the house and want to sleep on the bed with me as well, but they then start to play at night (theya re now great wrestlilng palls and we have feline/canine WWW all over the house as well as foot and hurdle races, but I keep her out of bedroom at night (she thinks that is a GREAT injustice!) the dog gloats!
Yea, they run our lives, but you know, I’d rather have a narcissistic cat or dog than a narcissistic person any day, with the cat or dog at least, if they get too pushy or entitled you can always pick it up and put it in another room (outside’s no more an option for the cat) I do give her some slack though since she had cat-PTSD from being persecuted by the 3X bigger cats (two of them) and actually fled for her life! She really was HYPER-ALERT for a long time until she came in the house TO STAY. Even afraid to eat without looking around every other bite even with us standing there protecting her while she ate. Now she is a butter ball and eats when she wants to witout the hyper-vigilence. She loves to play and wrestle with the dog and they play rough but not mean and no one gets hurt or mad, so the dog has a playmate which he needed and she has someone to trust and play with. I hope that all of us overcome the PTSD as well as the cat seems to have! (but not that we get as narcissistic and entitled as she seems to think she is now! LOL)
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 12:27pm
henry says:
Oh the weather out side is frightful. Woke up to ice and snow. Gonna bake cookies and wallpaper my bathroom. And keep you all company. WIT I let my weiner dogs sleep with me but ifn santa is hot and sexy when come to vist later today I will kick they little butts out of bed in newyork minute……just call me HO HO HO…..
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 12:30pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
I am “ashamed of you” throwing your faithful possom killin’ weiner dogs out of bed for some hot sexy santa! What a BEAST you are! I take back all the good things I said about you! LOL ROTFLMAO
Sorry your weather is worse than mine, but actually, now that I think about it, glad it is you and not me.! I had to go to the barn this mornig as son C got a late start and didn’t have time to do animal care before he left for work, so pulled on my rubber “bib over-hauls” I hadn’t worn in a couple of years and realized they fit like a SPANDEX suit! Barely shoehorned by tub of lard butt into them, so guess what my New Year’s resolution is going to be now that I have quit smoking–2010 is the year of the SLIMMER me! Gotta BE! Hey that rhymes!
It is pouring buckets here, but is 53 out today but going to turn below freezing tonight when the cold front passes over you and comes here, so we may get a “wintry mix” tonight but tomorrow is supposed to be 40 in the day time, but with 25-30 MPH winds, so won’t be a day to play outside for sure.
Thank goodness I don’t have to go over the hills and through the woods to the egg donor’s house! Not even in a sleigh!
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Thursday, 24 December 2009 @ 12:43pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
I am writing an old friend and telling him what has been happening in the last year, and one of those things is the spath. Two lines stand out about her:
‘She is a sociopath. She created a whole life for half a dozen people on two continents – wildly creative and crazy as batshit.’
and
‘It is like being shot in the head and receiving a brain injury.’
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 1:00am
ErinBrock says:
OXY:
GREAT visual!!!!
The old truck, the peacock hat and the spandex body condom in black with a bucket of feed in her hand and goat chasing around her for the feed…..or the feather!!!!!
NICE!
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 1:11am
OxDrover says:
MUSIC!!! “I nightmaring of a whiiiiiiiite Chistmas! Just like the ones we usta hav—-with the temps in the min-us and the winds in the doub-ellllll dig-ettttts, with the four-wheeeeel drivers skidddin, all ohhh0ver the roaddddd. and the tree tops fallll’in ann the power lines burning, as the housesss go darkkkk, ”
And guess what IT’S TRUE!!!! I must have beeeen aaah baaaaad girl this year! Every time we get one of them sentimental “white crummuses” that they sing about up north with all them sleigh bells ringing, no body seems to think about the poor farmers trudging out in that nasty mess to try to get hay to his pore critters in the freaking blizzard!
Oh, well, MERRY CRIMUS YOU GUYS, ROTFLMAO!!!
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 11:20am