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After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 8 – Waking up

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 10:30am • My Weblog

This is the eighth article in this series about the recovery path, and it is about the second half of the path. This is after we have fully accessed our anger, and begun to grieve our losses and let go. This article may not necessarily be helpful to someone who is still reeling from betrayal and loss, or even someone who is still exploring righteous anger. However, it is part of this series because a growing number of people on LoveFraud are considering the influence of their histories on their relationships, as part of healing themselves and their lives. Please, take what is valuable to you, but if this one doesn’t make sense or, God forbid, makes you feel like you’re being blamed, it just means that you’re at another healing stage. Which is good. Every stage is necessary and good. Be where you are, love yourself and heal. That’s all that matters. — Kathy

In recovering from a trauma or extended trauma like a sociopathic relationship, we often discover that what we lost isn’t what we first thought it was. In fact, our very resistance to letting go – the thing that often keeps us stuck in anger or even bargaining or denial – isn’t exactly what we thought it was.

The traumatic recovery process, if we have the courage to see it through, turns out to be very different from the “he done me wrong” drama it first appeared to be. It’s not about unrequited love. It’s not about us not being good enough or smart enough. It’s really not about anything that is between us and our sociopathic opposite number.

It is really about us waking from a dream.

What is real?

An old friend talked to me recently about feeling so disoriented that she had difficulty finding her way out of her hometown airport. She was returning from her third trip to visit a man in another city. Based on phone conversations with him, she had become convinced that he loved her, wanted a future with her, and accepted her as she was. When she arrived, she discovered that what he wanted was “friends with benefits.” And by the way, would she please invest in his condo because he was having trouble making the payments?

As on the previous trips, he was cold, critical and exploitive, expecting her to pay for staying with him and pay for everything they did together. Knowing that he had less money than her, she did that willingly. She would have given the five-figure investment in the condo, except that her money was tied up in a trust. The one thing she could not do was casual sex, and she could not understand how or why he did not remember that this was a baseline truth with her. If she was in a sexual relationship, it had to be serious and committed. Of course, they had sex before his idea about “friends with benefits” became clear, leaving her feeling used and ashamed.

After the other trips, she had felt wounded and depressed. Half angry at him, half wondering what she had done wrong. This time was different. She finally understood that she had been deluded, and it didn’t matter if he had misled her or she had misled herself. She contacted me to ask me what to do about the feeling of disorientation. She didn’t know how she could have been so mistaken, and she didn’t know what was real anymore.

“I want my old self back,” she said. Then she thought a moment, and said. “No, I don’t. Not if it’s the old self that keeps doing this over and over.”

The broken part

My friend is not stupid, though she has a history of relationships with exploitive people. Listening to her talk about how ashamed she felt about the love letters she had written and her feeling that she was too stupid to live, I could almost see the broken cog in the machinery of her psyche.

With her, as with many of us, this broken part is not really about the exploitive people who take advantage of it. We feel like these relationships are “happening to” us. But what really happened is that a certain set of circumstances triggers something in us that I call a “state.” (Some psychologists call it a ‘trance,” because it is a form of self-hypnosis. It may also be called a “fugue state,” after a type of music where a single melody line is repeated in many variations.)

A state is a reactive response with certain characteristics. One is a narrowing of focus. Everything else fades to lesser importance. Other, possibly unrelated experiences are interpreted through our intense involvement with this state and its triggers. The anger we have discussed in previous articles is a state. The disorientation of my friend and the distressed confusion of early-stage recovery are also states. Other characteristics of states may be reversion to childlike emotional behaviors – tantrums, outsized hunger for validation or security, confusing the feeling of relief with love.

Another characteristic of these states is often disassociation, or distancing ourselves from objective reality. “Inside” the state, we identify with it. It feels “right,” often passionately right, the truth about ourselves. A feedback loop can evolve. The state becomes magnified by our attention; so we pay more attention to it. If the state is painful, we may start looking for self-medication through alcohol, drugs, video games, shopping, work, etc. If the state provides pleasure, we may do more and more of what we think is creating the pleasure. As we pursue or avoid feelings, learning skills or living with the effects of our actions, the state’s structure evolves into more complexity.

So where do these states come from? Especially the painful ones. Anyone who has been reading this series of articles knows already. They are residue of unprocessed trauma. One of the simplest ways to grasp this is to ask, “When was the first time I ever felt this way?” We may not immediately remember the first time, but most of us can track the state backwards through events in our history.

My relationship with a sociopath was not the first time I’d felt completely subsumed by a romantic attachment. (It was just, unfortunately, the first time I’d done it with someone who felt no ethical responsibility toward me.) I realized, fairly early, that what was happening with him wasn’t “different,” but only a worst-case scenario of something I’d been doing my entire life.

Leaving Las Vegas

Few of us on LoveFraud would consider ourselves gambling addicts. But if we think about what gambling addicts really want, we might see a bit of ourselves in it. When a gambler is winning, the emotional payoff isn’t the money. It is the sense of basking in a kind of sunshine of divine acceptance, where s/he is magically doing everything right and being loved for it. The love may be expressed in financial winnings, but the thrill is that big, loving, supportive “yes” from the cosmos.

From the book “Leaving the Enchanted Forest: The Path from Relationship Addiction to Intimacy” by Stephanie Covington and Liana Beckett, here is a brief description of the progression of an addictive relationship:

1. Experiencing the euphoric high of a new relationship, which enables us to focus on another person, rather than dealing with our true emotional state
2. Seeking the positive mood swing, looking forward to it, being willing to make sacrifices to get it, suffering occasional feelings of dejection or jealousy or panic, but the pain is still manageable
3. Dependence, where focus on the lover crosses the line from choice to need, and life becomes narrow, unbalanced, unhealthy with obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors
4. Maintaining contact just to avoid being in a state of chronic depression and emotional pain, because there is no more euphoria and the inner balance is in shambles

Is this a state? It actually sounds like a series of states with a common thread. If we return to the gambler, we can see a similar fundamental story. A pursuit of magical redemption in which we get the prize if Lady Luck smiles on us, or fall back into a kind of emotional hell if she doesn’t.

But is that a fair analogy? Games of luck depend on the random distribution of a shuffled card deck, the end of a wheel’s momentum, the way dice fall. The gambler is essentially passive, beyond risking the stakes. In our relationships, we do so much more, don’t we? We don’t just show up and hope. We go out of our way to be charming, agreeable, enthusiastic, compliant, understanding, tolerant and supportive, while we kiss, cook, make love, arrange our schedules, dress to please, help out with their finances, children, careers, leave behind huge chunks of our lives as they were before. We’re actively building, investing, sacrificing, trying.

Still, the gambling analogy holds, because of one thing. The success of it all is out of our control. All we can do is our best, and hope that we earn a happy ending. In sociopathic relationships, we learn several very tough lessons. But primary among them is this: if our happiness depends on something outside of ourselves, we are living a gambler’s life.

The crumbling foundation

A recent show on HDTV was about the crumbling foundation under a house. Contractors mortared cinderblock up against the old walls and dug trenches around the outside of the foundation to divert the water that had weakened the concrete. In all, they managed to preserve the rooms of the house above by shoring up the old foundation.

What we face in getting over a sociopathic relationship something like the same problem, although our solution may be quite different. Our “states” are like rooms built on the foundation of old coping responses we adopted when we faced an overwhelming event when we were younger. When I was very small, I learned that no one would protect me from my father’s unreasonable verbal and physical abuse, and in fact, I was responsible for keeping him happy. At three years old or so, I developed an immediate coping response that involved alterations in patterns of feeling, thought and behavior, designed to manipulate circumstances and myself in order to survive. All of it was founded on an awareness of impending danger. But it also included a memory of the time before the danger, a dream of a better time, when I was loved, safe and could thrive as who I was.

That is a quick illustration of the foundation under a “room” in my psyche. I developed through my childhood and adult life with that “state” ready to be triggered by any circumstances that seemed to “fit.” Through the years, I furnished this room with more experiences that supported its reality, learned more survival skills for a world of impending danger, and once or twice, learned that I could relax and be myself in certain circumstances, thinking I was making big progress in my life.

But the twilight-zone reality of this room, which began with the original decision about how to handle an overwhelming childhood event, is what allowed the sociopath to take residence in my life. A coping strategy that was designed to help me survive danger as a child turned into a vulnerability to tremendous danger as an adult.

My friend who kept going back to a man who is incapable of loving her and uses her for money isn’t trying to hurt herself. In fact, she is trying to help herself out of other circumstances in her life. Because of her family background, she has a life strategy of being very, very good and helpful, because love must be earned and the alternative is punishment. Her dream is that, if she earns love, she will be able to recover the lost state of being accepted for herself and the right to her own identity. In this “state,” she is vulnerable to interpreting small kindnesses or seductive behaviors as “love” and acceptance. Especially if the other person meets certain other criteria, like bearing psychological resemblance to her pathologically selfish father.

All of us have gone through these perfect-storm situations when the right stimuli and our old coping strategies come together to throw us into a “state” that seems exciting and redemptive. But for my friend, on her final encounter with this man, something new emerged from this relationship – a realization that she was deluded. She was understandably disoriented because this realization potentially affected not just this relationship, but the structure of her entire life. When she said “I don’t know what to believe anymore” or “maybe I’m just too stupid to live,” she is talking about cracks in the foundation. Not just in the way she understood the world, but even in her ideas about her own identity.

How much can we lose?

In dealing with the residue of a sociopathic relationship, we feel separated from parts of our identity. We talk about not being able to trust again or love again. We talk about the loss of ourselves as lovable or attractive people, as trustworthy to ourselves or others, as believers in the goodness of the world or in a benevolent deity. We have feelings – like bitterness, anger, vengefulness – that we fear or dislike in ourselves. It seems like our rules of social engagement, romance or personality integrity have become broken or unreal.

It is no wonder that many of us need time before we jump back into the world again. With so many basic realities up in the air, a larger question emerges. If the world is so different, if we are so different that what we imagined, then what is real? Or more importantly, is real about us?

As profoundly disorienting as this may be, it is also part of the grieving and letting go stage of trauma processing. Because as we start to allow ourselves to face irretrievable losses – like the loss of the person we loved and the loss of the dream that person represented – we often discover that those losses are just the superficial veneer over deeper losses we have not yet grieved and let go.

In my case, grieving the loss of this man also brought me to the realization that he, and all the other lovers of my life, were band-aids I used cover a very old wound. That was the too-early loss of supportive protection when I was a child. I saw how much of my life was constructed around my coping with impending danger, and especially in my search for safety and restoration of a sense that I belonged and was welcome in the world.

In healing, I had to revisit that child who still existed in me, who was still holding up the foundation of that now-dysfunctional room that welcomed my sociopathic lover as a savior. I had to grieve with her about the childhood she lost while I reassured her that I was taking care of her now. That she could drop that weight finally, stop holding together all those coping strategies like a little Atlas with the world on her shoulders.

If you had asked me five years ago who I am, I would have given you a list of all the characteristics I developed in that room. Hardworking, responsible, trustworthy, generous, tolerant, kind, polite, presentable – all “virtues” that were really highly developed skills to earn the acceptance and approval I needed to feel safe. If you had thought to ask me who I was underneath all of that, and I was feeling particularly honest, I would have told you I was scared and tired and alone. Chronically and unfixably, except for the temporary respites I got from diving into another relationship, winning some praise for my work, or buying or eating something that made me feel better.

Today, if you asked me the same question, I would just smile. The question doesn’t compute. I am my “states,” and yes, they still exist. I still have knee-jerk responses to the stimuli that remind me of my old “world of impending danger.” But increasingly, I recognize them as responses to trauma. I observe myself slipping in and out of these states, being tempted to behaviors that are band-aids for pain.

In getting outside these states, I stopped limiting my identity to characteristics based on arranging my life around impending danger. I freed myself to grow into a larger identity. It includes characteristics – like selfishness, undependability and anger – that were forbidden before. I am more fluid and accepting of myself and other people. But most important, I find that my center has shifted. It’s hard to describe who I am now, but it includes this “observer,” as well as more awareness of the world around me, and more openness to feelings of joy, awe, gratitude and compassion.

I let go of a lot of things. It wasn’t always easy. There was backlash from well-intentioned “rules” and critical voices designed to keep me safe in a world of impending danger. I had to feel my way along to discover what rules were reasonable and which were obsolete artifacts of coping with a scary daddy.

This process of letting go of parts of myself will, I believe, never end. But, to my surprise, it becomes increasingly enjoyable. I once grieved over the discovery that I was not always trustworthy and that, despite all the effort I put into it, I could not make everyone like me. Now, when some inner voice tells me “I have to” do something, my inner observer frequently pops up and decides whether that “state” is useful or whether we have better options. More and more, everything about me is optional, because every moment is new with new challenges and new opportunities that have nothing to do with my history or with some frightened little identity that is really just baggage from that history.

As far as impending danger goes, that’s another issue that we’ll discuss in a future article. Fear, the natural fear of the dangers of a random universe, is something we still have not addressed in this journey of recovery. Grieving and letting go paves the way for that next stage.

Namaste. The joyous awakening spirit in me salutes the joyous awakening spirit in you.

Kathy

P.S. I owe a debt of gratitude to the writing of Stephen Wolinsky, Ph.D., for many of the ideas in this article. You can find his books on Amazon.

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written by Kathleen Hawk • Permalink •

Rune says:

Hello Kathy: Another great article guiding me in self-exploration! And it’s good to “see” you again.

I’ll be spending some time mulling over your words, but the “editor state” in me wonders if you meant to say “HGTV” when you introduced the concept of “the crumbling foundation.” Although, I’ll admit that much of my own processing of this experience has been in brilliant high definition!

Namaste, my friend.

(Report abusive comment)

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:19am

learnthelesson says:

Hi Kathy,

I got to the point where I use to dread waking up. It meant facing so much.. Hurt, pain, confusion…wanting to go right back to “Sleep” state…

Now, I am waking up again wanting to work through anything and everything that comes my way. Even the residual hurt, pain, confused, angry, “states”…. Because I realize it helps me become more awakened to who I am and who I want to be, to who others are and want to be or want not to be.

What has awakened me the most …is that it is so true…we all have choices. We dont get to choose what we awaken to each day, or who crosses our pathes each day…but we definitely get to choose how we want to handle it, how we protect ourselves from what we learned from red flags to more about our past and how we choose to peel away layers and lay more healthy foundations for ourselves as we go through life, or rather as we LET GO of our past, our old-self, and explore the rest of ourselves and our healing ways enabling us to live well, observing and making healthier choices for ourselves and with others. (run on sentences…how do you do it so you dont have any??!!!) lol

Waking up. Part 8 – ITS GREAT! Thanks Kathy! As Rune said its always good to “see” you!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:41am

usedabused says:

Tremendous insight, Kathy. I recall a trance-like state early on, during our Honeymoon period and even told the S, that I’d been in a trance. He said “I’ll take you there again,” and did, many many times over that first year.

I was I escaping the pain of divorce that came out of the blue. Left for an OW and I was completely in the dark about it.

But this has me thinking it was deeper. My childhood was not happy, though only a few instances of physical abuse, it was all mental. In a nut shell, my mother always wanted me to be somebody else. And never takes no for an answer, has to keep going.

The S was EXACTLY LIKE THIS. Never could respect the word “NO” kept at me and at me until I gave in on whatever.

This is frightening. Need to ponder.

Thank you for the wisdom.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:59am

slimone says:

Kathy and All,

Thank-you for this spot on description of this part of the healing; for speaking to questions I don’t even know I am asking!

I have been talking with friends about how angry I feel about not being ‘able’ to jump into another relationship. How I feel like the drug I liked so well has been taken off the market, and I cannot find a suitable substitute, which in turn makes me feel (off and on) panic-stricken. I used to think I was strong for being able to pick myself up and brush myself off and dive headfirst into another relationship.

Now I understand that it wasn’t strength, it was a pattern, a complusion, to avoid the things I am feeling now.

Scared, alone, anxious, and confused about how to soothe myself. I have a hard time relating to this version of ‘me’. I feel like I am balancing on one leg, because I simply do not know where to put the other foot down. As the ‘place’ I would have put it before has disappeared, and there is no ground to step down on.

Without the real or false sense of security that I felt a relationship provided me I have a lot of fear about the danger that lurks in the world- which has only been compounded by a relationship with a S. And lately I have found this to be my biggest challenge- not feeling safe. My sense of danger seems to have become magnified, and feels out of balance.

“In getting outside these states, I stopped limiting my identity to characteristics based on arranging my life around impending danger. I freed myself to grow into a larger identity. It includes characteristics – like selfishness, undependability and anger – that were forbidden before.”

I find myself discovering who I am outside these states- and sticking with it, not backing down to the dictates of being nice and amenable. And at the same time I am freaking out inside, at least some part of me, that I am going against the rules of conduct. This has got me feeling like I am bits and pieces, but not a whole integrated person. Different parts of me arguing and struggling, and ‘needing’ different things. Like I am trying to be all things to myself, and don’t know how.

Yoga, therapy, walking, sleep, trusted friends love and support help. But I look forward to having a gradual release from the grip of this much fear and uncertainty. A release that comes from within. I don’t know exactly how to get there, other than just keep walking, talking, living, paying attention, learning, and trying my best to empathize and love myself through it all.

Thank-you, again, for making the effort to research and write something SO validating and helpful. Namaste….

Catherine

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 12:05pm

Rosa says:

My brother & I were both raised in the same family by the same loving parents.

But we both have been in relationships with sociopaths. I got away from mine, but my brother married his. And my family & I have been suffering the consequences ever since.

Kathy is right. At some point, we have to take some personal inventory to see what it is in ourselves that attracts these predatory individuals to us.

My brother & I were raised to be “tolerant” of others. We were taught to “turn the other cheek”. We were told that it is gracious, even classy, to put other people before yourself.

That is all well and good, but you need to know where to draw the line for yourself. You need to know where your personal boundaries lie. Otherwise, the predators will come.

While we were instilled with the proper values/behaviors as children, no one taught us where to draw the line, or even that we would ever NEED to draw the line.

There comes a time in everyone’s life when YOU NEED TO DRAW THE LINE!

LIFE LESSON: KNOW WHERE/WHEN TO DRAW THE LINE!!!!!! (the earlier the better)

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 1:44pm

Betty says:

Hi, Kathy!

Thank you so much for your wonderful article. This process of accepting myself as I am is scary, and also an adventure! Even though I don’t like the feeling, it seems much of the anxiety I experience is like a giant arrow pointing straight towards the parts of my life that most need healing. Like your friend in the airport, these days I often feel wonky and off-base, but I’ve begun thinking of it as a guide to what in my life I need to pay attention to NOW. For the first time in my life, instead of running away from my fears, I am walking towards them to discover what it is they have to teach me.

Reading your article this afternoon, the first thing that popped into my head was, “GOOD MEDICINE!” Please keep writing!

Namaste and Lots of Love,
Betty

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 4:25pm

Matt says:

Kathy:

Good to hear from you. I was wondering how you were doing.

Now that I’ve pretty much gotten past the anger phase, I’ve been taking a good hard look at my life to see how I got here. I grew up with physical and verbal abuse raining down around me. The warped coping strategies I emploed for survival translated into completely self-abnegating behavior in order to focus 100 percent on the needs, wants and demands of my parents in order to try to keep being killed.

Last week I met wit my therapist and commented on this and then remarked that I can’t find the will or energy to start the job hunt. I realized that I have lived m whole life being reactive. Everything I did and every action I took was aimed at rectifying the short-term immediate problem or situation. That way of life culminated in S and the aftermath. I now see how I can’t life a life that is solely reactive. I need to get proactive.

He told me that I needed to sit down and start thinking about where I want my life to go — a big picture objective, if you will. I have to admit I’m coming up dry. Oh, I have my pie-in-the-sky moments, which are completely impractical. But, no real answers.

I am scared witless at the concept of finally focusing on me, myself and I for the first time in my life. I was so damned self-less with S that he mopped the floor with me. Mother Theresa was an admirable woman. She deserves sainthood for her selflessness. But, I’m no saint.

So, I’ve been shoring up my foundation. Now I’ve got to find the house that sits on top of it.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 5:22pm

Matt, I just read your post to Kathy. So glad to see you working on Matt. The only thing to fear is fear itself! You will be blown away at what and who you find inside of you – you have lots of healthy selflessness inside you too! Balanced with a newfound healthy selfishness – you will find your way leaps and bounds in the upcoming year!

And I have really STRUGGLED in the process with the meaning of healthy selflessness and unhealthy selflessness. And healthy selfishness and unhealthy selfishness. I have come to the conclusion that Mother Theresa displayed healthy selflessness – caring and nurturing people who truly appreciated and needed her charity work. I displayed an unhealthy unnatural selflessness – that left me nearly lost and hospitalized by the time that journey was over. I lost myself, gave myself away, didnt take care of myself and I certainly wasnt giving to someone who appreciated it and respected it or actually needed it. Its good to learn and know the differences and be able to put them into action in your life!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 5:46pm

Rosa: you said, “At some point, we have to take some personal inventory to see what it is in ourselves that attracts these predatory individuals to us.”

We also have to take a personal inventory to see what makes us tolerate their behaviors once they have started to reveal themselves.

I think both those issues are significant.

I also want to repeat the truth, though, that ANYONE CAN BE FOOLED when they’ve got their “game” going and they haven’t shown the real dysfunction.

We should be kind to ourselves as we also work on our own self-exploration.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 5:59pm

Hey Matt: Before you hunt for that job, you want to know what job you should hunt for, right? I think your wise subconscious is guiding you to get clear on your direction before you start out again!

I have a suggestion, since you said you are “coming up dry.” Have you ever worked with a “dream board”? It’s a way of using pictures and a big white board to tell yourself what you really want, and it can help you clarify to your consciousness what your deeper self is wanting for you in your life. Get yourself a great big piece of posterboard. Then set yourself up with some music for the background and go wild with pasting on pictures from magazines, or writing notes to yourself — anything that comes up! It’s a non-analytical (unlawlerly!) way to process information that taps into creativity that may be damped down by your analytical busy brain.

Best to you!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:06pm

JaneSmith says:

Greetings, Kathleen!

I’ve also been wondering how you’ve been doing.

Haven’t read your current article yet, but I will. You always offer such excellent concepts, insights and remarkable theories that get my ol’ grey matter to buzzing!

Be well, lovely friend…xxoo…

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:11pm

Rune:

I know I’m over analyzing this, but with the dreamboard, do you put up pictures that speak to you and in some kind of thematic alignment? I think it’s a good idea, I’m just trying to get the logistics straight in my mind.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:13pm

Kathleen Hawk says:

Thank you for these wonderful comments. It took me weeks of dabbling on and off on this article to finally let it go. But it was something I had to write before I could move on to other things. I’m not sure how well I stuck to my original (in my head) topic of the fact that we really have to let go of some of the things we think we are, in order to make room for our new selves to develop.

I know I’ve been gone for a long time. My life got really complicated, and there were some personal dramas that were difficult to handle. I just retreated into my cave for a while to limit the input while I processed through it all.

A few thoughts on your posts.

First, thank you Rune, for your eagle eye. I meant HGTV.

Hi, learnthelesson, it sounds like you’re working this part of the path too. Choice is such an important concept. And one that we seem to grow into, as we realize how much choice we really do have. First we learn to say “no.” Then somewhere along the way, we stop apologizing, we give up worrying about a lot of rules, we get honest about how we feel and what we want, and we start operating as though our lives were about us. Then we start making choices based on our real passions, and things get really good and/or interesting.

Oh, usedandabused, you seem to be teetering on the edge of a world-changing insight. Once my therapist told me that my sociopath was a weak version of my father. I couldn’t imagine how she could say that, because my sociopath had driven me so crazy. But she was right. They were the same type — charming, selfish bullies that demanded love and total acquiescence that was all one way. But the big difference was that I had to put up with my father. My “trance” made me think I had to put up with the one that showed up forty years later. It was a great moment when I realized the he was the same, but I wasn’t. I’m a big girl now and I get to choose. (And by the way, they were both weak. I finally understood that too.)

Hi, slimone. I know exactly what you’re talking about with these inner arguments. Inevitably parts of you are going to lose power in this process, and they’re going to fight it. But you can be compassionate toward them in this transition. They’re just trying to keep you safe. But they’re children’s rules, a lot of them. Things we picked up from caring relatives, teachers, etc., when our little minds were attuned to bad-good dichotomies and not a lot of subtlety. The more mature we get, the more we can live with ambuity, because we know we’re capable of shifting course from moment to moment.

But maybe more to the point, those voices will probably calm down as they learn that you’re not being careless or stupid with yourself, and they can trust you. (Because they are the voices of not trusting yourself.) Or if you’ve got the time and energy, you can discuss situations with them. Okay, what would you do? They’re kind of like little people in your head, and if you give them a little attention to speak their piece, you might find them relaxing.

One of my favorite authors, Arjuna Ardagh, wrote something like our minds are like crazy relatives. We may have to listen to them, but we don’t have to do what they say.

Rosa, drawing the line is a really good thing. Maybe you can be a role model for your brother. It’s a truism that as one person in a family “gets better,” it has a ripple effect on everyone else. I know that was true when I went into therapy and learned how to speak up for myself. After they all got over my rudeness at not worrying about how they were going to react before I spoke, the whole gang got a lot more honest with each other.

Betty, what a perfect post! It took me a long time to learn that I couldn’t get around difficult feelings. I had to go through them. Fear, anger, grief. Get inside of them and learn what they’re really about. I look forward to reading more of your writing.

Dear Matt, I’ll be coming down to NYC later in the month. Want to get together for coffee? Meanwhile, it sounds like you’re doing great work with a good therapist. All my life, people have asked me to get clear about what I wanted, and I would just look at them blankly. I could go on forever about what I don’t want, about what irritates me, about what makes me feel betrayed, about what I don’t like about what happened. But actually getting clear about what I want? That was a major mountain.

I know I’ve mentioned this before, but years ago, I heard a Science of Mind minister ask, “What would you do if you knew you could not fail?”

Maybe I heard it at the right moment, but it really changed the way I plan. Thinking about what it costs, what could go wrong, or why it’s probably impossible is looking for ways to say no. I just start with dreaming big. Silly big. It doesn’t cost anything to dream. And this isn’t a test. It’s just letting your heart go where it wants to go. Later, you can figure out how to get there.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:32pm

Hi Matt: Yep! Get out that stack of old magazines — some source of pictures. Let your mind “wander.” Actually what you’re letting your mind do is go into the more creative, slower frequency alpha waves where you can think without words, down in the symbology of pictures. Use any source of pictures that come to you. Draw if you need to. Make notes if you don’t have a picture. But go ahead and be messy about this.

Having music around also can soothe you and encourage the creative flow. Don’t second-guess yourself. Let yourself have the freedom to just go with the first hunch. There is no right or wrong here.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:35pm

Kathy, I was posting to Matt as you were posting. I see we agree about “dreaming big. Silly big. It doesn’t cost anything to dream.”

Funny how we have to go through the process of “Waking UP” to really be able to DREAM!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:39pm

Matt:

With your quick wit and sense of humor, you should write a screenplay about your life with S, and submit it to the producers in Hollywood. You would make big $$.

Or, you could go on the road and do stand-up comedy.

I would definitely come to your show!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:44pm

I’d love to get together. I’ll shoot Donna my contact info to pass along to you.

The question of “What would you do if you knew you could not fail?” resonated with me. Oddly enough, my therapist said I keep trying to tinker with my existing life, rather than thinking of where I want my life to go, because I keep trying to put a safety net in place. I need to find some way to stop putting the blocks in my way and start dreaming big, since, as you put it, it doesn’t cost anything to dream.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:48pm

Rosa:

Thanks.

Maybe I should start by writing my dreams down. It’s funny, I don’t dream about S anymore. But, last night I did.

I dreamed I was in a restaurant having brunch with one of my siblings. S walked up to our table with his new victim and introduced by sibling, and then said and “this is…oh, I’m sorry what’s your name again?” I said “Matt. I know it’s a toughie to remember. Not easy like your’s — inmate 07-R1254.”

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:53pm

Start writing, Matt!!!!

Trust me, they cannot come up with this stuff in Hollywood!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 6:56pm

justabouthealed says:

I don’t know. I almost always agree with your posts Kathleen. And it is great that you used a bad experience in such a positive manner. But I think it was Dr. Leedom (and forgive me if I’m misquoting or misunderstood) who said that the relationship with a P/S/N is not that different than a good one, in terms of OUR behavior. I dated more than 30 men. There was one who tried to date rape me, but that was not really traumatic. I just told him to take me home immediately or I’d smear his name all over campus, he did, and then I went ahead and smeared his name all over campus anyway! I’ve been the same person in all my relationships. ONLY ONE MAN/BOY REDUCED ME TO THE STATE WE ALL KNOW SO WELL. Like you, it was so painful it led to self-growth, and I’m now a much stronger person. I feel like I’ve earned a black belt in mental health! No one can hurt me like that ever again. NO ONE! But I’m 59 years old and only ONE PERSON ever hurt me that deeply in a man/woman relationship. My mom hurt me as a kid, I understand all that, etc, etc. etc. But I would not like my P/S/N to read the above article. He DID do me wrong. So what if I had had this mental health karate then, he could not have hurt me. He DID do me wrong. Sorry !

One man physically raped me. When I was 12. A stranger. Since then, other STRANGERS have attempted it in scenarios that were clearly not my fault! For instance, one time I was taking a shower in a hotel. Him breaking in was not me “asking for it!” But since that first time, no one has succeeded, so matter how close they got, because I have a WILL and DETERMINATION and KNOWLEDGE that I didn’t have at 12. But damn if I will ever say my problem at 12 was NOT the US Sailor in uniform who raped me but rather my lack of will, determination, the helplessness I had from being a kid compared to a man with a knife, etc. AND DAMN if I will say that the reason the P/S/N hurt me was my lack of whatever. I got hurt because he is a creep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could he do it now? NEVER. Did he do me wrong? YES. Was it his fault. HELL YES!

Maybe you would agree, and I’m just reading wrong, but my personal bottom line is I made some bad, wrong, choices but never was I trying to hurt ANYONE.I used some damn faulty logic, rationalizations, ect but have since worked HARD to make amends to all parties. He was trying to hurt on purpose and he DID hurt me, terribly. He could not do it now. I’m strong. But HE DID ME WRONG!!!!!!!!!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:02pm

Hi, JaneSmith. Thanks for caring. I’m glad to be back. I’ll be interested to know what you think.

Rune, that’s a great idea. Reminds me of the “mood books” that some graphics agencies do for my clients before they start developing brochures or ads. Sort of an emotional scrapbook that can turn into some amazing ideas.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:08pm

justabouthealed, it was not my intention to blame the victim. This article is a follow-up to the one about grieving and letting go. Each piece, including exploring the meaning of recurring patterns in our lives, has a place in the healing process.

But wherever we are is right for us. You have every right to be angry, and to place blame where it belongs. In my mind, it’s a crucial stage of healing, and one we have to go through before we can get to grieving and letting go. If you don’t know what you lost, you can’t grieve it and let it go. And anger helps to clarify that.

It sounds like you had some terrible experiences that involved significant loss. Of innocence. Of years of your life that would have been different. Of happiness that was sacrificed in these events. At least this. Probably more.

My point was that ultimately, the healing takes us beyond the blaming and judgments about what happened to us, or what we did. Being angry about what we can’t change just eats us up, and is a continuation of suffering. Caring for ourselves evolves from being a warrior to being a lover. It’s a progression of mastery. But there’s no question we have to learn how to be a warrior first, to know we can recognize risk and take care of ourselves in a random world, before we can open our hearts again.

Or at least this is how it is in my mental model.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:28pm

Hi Matt-

I know we don’t know each other, but I went through a big job change last year, and was unemployed for several months- trying to figure out what direction to take. I struck on something kinda simple, that assisted me.

As an aside, just after broke with S, found that my new boss was another S, and I was forced out of my previous job (as an administrator) and my reputation impuned, bigtime.

I was having a very hard time organizing my thoughts around finding a new job- and if I was going to change, to what?

I kept trying to recycle my ‘old work’, feeling it was safe/familiar. But every time I went to an interview my guts would churn and I couldn’t take the jobs. BUT, I do have to say, for me just interviewing for a variety of positions helped me clarify what I wanted and didn’t: from a ‘lifestyle’ perspective.

Did I want to drive far? How many hours did I want to work? How much money? How many hours did I want for myself, my friends? Rather than “just” thinking about the job itself, I ‘felt into’ my own life and how it would feel to live it a certain way. I even wrote down what a typical day would look and feel like.

It was a learning for me to put my life priorities first, and then allow the other details to follow…instead of the other way ’round.

That’s my 2 cents!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:30pm

“ANYONE CAN BE FOOLED when they’ve got their game going…”

ABSOLUTELY!!!

I have watched my brother’s wife “operate” within my family. And I would think in the back of my mind, “DAMN, SHE”S GOOD. SHE IS A MASTER MANIPULATOR.”

Not so much anymore, though. The family is “waking up”.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:39pm

Thanks Kathleen. I don’t want to let go of the anger, ever. I feel my heart is open. I’m full of joy, I feel I have achieved a depth of intimacy that is so real with my husband and I have so many, many dear and long term friends. I see blessings and strengths that have poured into my life that would not have, had it not been for what happened in my past. But I’m very comfortable with anger. I’ve helped put bad guys (gals) in prison. They may not be to blame for what they did….genes, their past, mom’s drug use, etc etc….but they are RESPONSIBLE, in that they are the being who did the dirty deed….and I have no trouble being angry about child abuse, animal abuse or the N/S/P who targeted me. I love anger now! And I feel ALL healed. Maybe someday I will look back and say it was just a stopping spot in the healing….but I really, really, really don’t think so.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 8:10pm

PS I don’t experience anger as eating me up. It fuels me! It keeps me strong! My professional life is dedicated to fighting abuse and cruelty and anger about what is done to innocents FUELS me, makes me stand straight, makes me proud. And I laugh at the drop of the hat, so I think I’m just fine!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 8:13pm

Maybe the difference is I don’t feel angry about things I can’t change. I’m very much focused on today and the future. Regarding the P/S/N, I’m still helping his family, I’m still warning his next targets (successfully I might add), but about ready to hand the job off …well, in fact I have, into very capable hands. I’m focused on felons, some in the news lately, and bringing them down! Towanda! But in case you can’t tell….(grin)…..I’m rather passionate about anything that even hints at blaming the victim, even when that is not the intent. I get sick and tired of hearing defense attorneys singing that song!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 8:21pm

jah,

I just spoke to a friend about good healthy doses of outrage. About the idea that stifled outrage/anger turns to self-doubt and depression.

She has been working with an Israeli woman to experience her anger and learning to harness it and use the energy of her anger to mobilize her growth and creation of self-loving boundaries.

I wonder why some of us can connect to our anger, while others (and I would put myself more in this camp) have a difficult time experiencing a healthy sense of outrage?

Slim

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 9:24pm

Not sure. And some who fight abuse never were abused themselves, they just fight the good fight anyway! Like Irena Sendler. Like Jane Adams. Both had fathers who urged them to think of others, and modeled it.

ANYWAY I GOT ON TO say HEY STARGAZER!!!!!! I saw an Arizona Black rattlesnake today! Up close and personal! Rattling. My husband and his dog stepped right by it, not seeing it. Then my dog spotted it (our dogs are on leashes, always on these hikes), about the same time I was thinking “gee, that almost sounds like a rattlesnake! ” Then I saw it too. Nice guy though. While his tail was up rattling, he was not coiled to strike but rather was on his way to slithering into the rocks. Fairly good sized. My husband said “Shall I kill it?” and I said Of course not, this is his home and he is not being aggressive at all, quite the contrary. But we did turn around and go home at that point….enough hiking adventure for one day!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 9:33pm

slimone:

In my case, although I grew up with two fonts of fury, if I showed even the remotest hint of anger, I was beaten. I think I learned to suppress my healthy sense of outrage and didn’t learn how to constructively express my anger, instead turning it against myself.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 9:35pm

STARGAZER, STARGAZER…READ MY POST ABOVE!

As I’ve said before Matt, I too was not allowed to show anger. Maybe that is why I experience it as a positive force now. My husband says I’m like the English, who will start out in a public forum, thanking the previous speakers, calling everyone sir and madam ….and then launch into a devastating, dead-on- attack, just flatten everyone with the absolute speaking truth to power….and then very politely and graciously thank everyone for listening to my point of view and sit down. LOL!

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 9:42pm

But these are BAD GUYS I try to flatten. Clearly, clearly, clearly doing bad horrible things, like starving innocents to death, etc. and pocketing the money, etc.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 9:45pm

Matt and Justabout,

LOL, I can feel myself in the audience, the hot wind of your admonitions blowing through my hair. YES, to flattening the bad guys!!!!

My friend who brought up the anger conversation was instructed by her body worker to move this outrage ‘through her heart’. That is what I hear you saying, Justabout, even in your humor…that you move this energy through your heart/compassion/empathy/truth so that it comes out as a blast of healing for those who have ears to hear it.

I think Matt, like any of our false beliefs and inabilities, we learned them when we were young. And when you are raised in an abusive family/environment it is absolutely necessary that we begin, early on, to believe in our abusers and ‘the lie of them’. This certainly did not include me being able to express anger, neediness. insecurity. I do remember that those were intolerable to my mother, as they brought all her shortcomings/fears forward. And she was only 16 when she had me, very little tolerance for much.

And can I just say THANK-YOU to everyone on the blog for their generous postings. Thank-you for taking the time for sharing your experience, wisdom and humor.

I am so grateful to have found this place! Slim

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:26pm

James says:

“It is really about us waking from a dream.”

But this dream isn’t about her, no the dream was mine. A dream that was never to be because the reality of a dream is to always awake from it. Then we can start to see the true self and it’s true reality. To face one’s own true self. To know one’s true self with all it’s faults. It’s sad to awake from a dream and how perfect it was. But only when we awake from this state can we began to live in the real world accepting all our faults and still being able to love that person. The hardest thing for me to do was once awaken from my dream was to see myself and see it maybe even for the first time. To accept all the damage done to me by others but also that which I have done to myself. Never can blame be given to just one thing event or person. No, it’s taken years of aloneness abuse and denial from this abuse to collect from others but also from myself. That’s is why the dream was so important, because with it came all my answers and all my hopes. But still it was only my dream, a dream. Until the day came to be awaken from my dream only then can I now know myself fully and truly. There are days that I want and wish to return to my dream. But each day each new experience and each new discovery I know this can never be. I know who I am now and love that person, why would I want to bury that person again in a world of dreams?

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:50pm

henry says:

powerful post James – thank you.

Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:53pm

Thanks, James, for that right-on post. This “waking up” article just scratches the surface of the topic. It’s difficult to write about from any position of authority, because the experience is so extremely personal. When you’re doing it, you know it, because the walls start falling.

We get hints of it throughout the entire healing process. Which, in a way, is all about “seeing through” — understanding what’s real. We get to understand that our feelings are real. We get to understand that what happened to us is real, and that there is an outside world that is distinct from us. We get to understand that we can live without something that we thought we couldn’t live without.

But this part, this emerging realization that we are living with damage that affects our perceptions, moves us into a whole new realm. I always knew that I was messed up in some way, because of what happened to me as a kid. It’s one of the reasons I kept postponing writing, because I knew how much my thinking was affected by unresolved anger and grief, but I could never figure out how to “see though” it. (And I know that lots of other people have built writing careers exploring their own or other people’s damage; it’s just not what I wanted. I wanted to be clear.)

What you are talking about, James, this acceptance of first damage and then all the ways it played out in your life, was, for me, one of those total changes in consciousness. It happened after I started revisiting early trauma and going through re-parenting exercises. I stood with my younger self and observed the scene. Saw what was going on from an adult perspective, acknowledged how difficult it was for me at that time, and relieved my child self of the coping decisions I’d made at that time.

I did a very good job as a child in surviving, and all the ways that played out in my later life was that child in me still coping in its child way. As wrong and crazy as some of this looks from an adult perspective, it was the best she could do. But all of that was based on a dependent condition that no longer exists. So I told her she was safe now, and could get back to being a child and growing up in safety. I would take over, and keep us safe while she did.

For me, this was a powerful exercise. For one thing, it let me see across my whole life how my child-based coping had created perspectives, actions and events in my adult life. For another, it triggered completion of some childhood development that I missed. Not suddenly, but I could feel things moving through my life. The evolution of measured trust (something that I’ll probably write about toward the end of this series), understanding of my environment that was less fear-based, new problem-solving skills.

But most of all, it let me get to know myself in a way that wasn’t tinged with the same fear that affected my relationship with the world. There were bad things in my background. They did affect how I proceeded after them. It did take me a very long time to sort them out. And in the meantime, I was affected. The more I understand, the more okay I am with myself. I had my reasons. Whether or not anyone else can understand or however it looks to the outside world, I had my reasons.

And as you say, when you get to that kind of love and acceptance of yourself, the world is very different. Instead of the black-and-white environment that is generated by fear and anger, you see causes and effects, the long threads of human stories, playing out unresolved damage in sad and destructive dramas.

And that makes it somehow easier and more important to go to work on changing what can be changed. It’s why I’m so interested in making things better for families and children. Also in political, business and spiritual issues. To me, their all of a piece. I’d like to see us all get well.

Again, thanks, for a really wonderful post.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:45am

justabouthealed, I wanted to sleep on your posts before I responded. You are so articulate, and I understand what you’re saying very well. So here are a couple of thoughts.

One is that anger is a phase. I realize that I’m probably setting myself up here for a big debate, but I also know that for several years I felt like anger was the best thing that ever happened to me. I was clear-headed, incisive, knew exactly how I felt and what I needed to accomplish, and had the energy and vision to get it done. For me this was an epiphany, because I had grown up in a family in which anger was completely unsafe and forbidden, and in most of my adult life I had no access to my anger. Finally, I did have access and I loved it. I was not only sorting out my own life, but I was actively involved in many circumstances outside of myself, cleaning up inefficiencies, corruption and plain stupidity.

Because I loved it, I started writing about how important it was. And it is. We can’t rise from emotional or any other kind of slavery without developing righteous anger. Which includes the ability to draw lines, say no, stand up for ourselves, identify the problem and fix it or eliminate it. I think that most of us live in willing slavery (because we are asleep to our own power), and I also started talking a lot about empowerment to people who seemed to be at the edge of it. All of this was good.

I also came to think that there is a clear distinction between embedded anger (the kind that comes from unresolved historical trauma that affects how we see the world) and natural, healthy anger in response to something that is happening in the here-and-now. That difference equates to mastery of our feelings. If we are living with embedded anger, our responses are always going to be affected by it. If we go back and resolve those issues, then our anger becomes measured and more usable as a force for the good (rather than something we have to control to keep from doing damage).

Now all this is about me, and my pursuit of equilibrium and clarity. I know that many people have done wonderful things by channeling embedded anger into activism of some kind. I did that for a while, but ultimately it made me uncomfortable. Partially, because I don’t trust adversarial thinking as a way to get to best and lasting outcomes. Partially, because I found that the angry/blaming/judgemental mindset was as likely to be turned against myself as anything else. Partially because I knew I was eventually going to burn out. Partially because it made it difficult to let go of things, when they were really over.

I felt like there was a higher perspective, if I could get to it, that would incorporate righteous anger, but not be dominated by it.

So I started digging into my anger, to understand what I was really so angry about. And in my case (though I think the progression might not be the same for everyone), it led me to understanding my losses and heading into the grief phase. Grieving and letting go wasn’t the end of anger. It still has it’s place in the here-and-now, and I can still feel anger about what happened to the little girl I once was. But the way I feel it is different. I understand it as a reaction, and I understand exactly what I’m reacting to. I can feel it and also be observing it. It gives me a lot more control about what I do with it.

Which, in my case, means that I move relatively quickly into a cool intellectual evaluation of how to change the circumstance. I’m more of a chess player now. My definition of winning has become more subtle. I’m less concerned about whether anyone knows I’ve been there than whether I’ve been able to influence the outcome.

I’m not sure if any of this relates to what you’ve written. But in your first post, I saw how very aware you are of things “happening to.” Which is part of the reality of anger. It is important and valuable, because it separates us from circumstances, makes them not about us. But I would suggest, with all respect, that there is another higher reality in which we are “part of.” And in being “part of,” we become even more empowered to do good, because we understand and see more.

None of this is criticism. You are clearly engaged in being “part of” right now in the work you do. What I am suggesting is that ultimately you might be able to do it with less stress on yourself, if that becomes an issue. And if it doesn’t, you sound like a fabulous warrior. Consider me one of your cheerleaders, yelling “Give ‘em hell.”

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:58am

Thanks Kathleen. I will reread and reread what you have written. Because I’ve always learned so much from you in the past, the thought nags at me that I’m missing something here I need to learn. So know that I will be rereading your writings and thinking…

For anyone who IS struggling with self-blame, the book When You Love a Man Who Loves Himself does an excellent job of explaining interactions with a narcissist and how they are different than normal dating/love relationships, without making you feel anything is wrong with YOU. And a sociopath or a psychopath fits the description in the book too.

Emotional Rape is another excellent healing book that does not blame the victim AT ALL!!!

And then the Betrayal Bond IS about yourself, and after working through the exercises many times, I felt I earned my mental health karate belt that I had to earn to protect myself from n/p/s. Yes, Kathleen, a lot of self-reflection. And the author of that book states “survivors cannot afford to blame others. The path of awareness brings them ultimately to acceptance of what their reality is, including their own part, and ….they have to take action”

But at least for me, part of the acceptance of the reality is “these actions of this guy were BAD and reacting with anything but anger was part of the problem….and that is a problem I’ve let go of.” At the same time though I let go of any hope of ever changing him or anyone like him, but did my best to help empower OTHERS to contain him. That mission is over….on to new felons!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 12:14pm

truebeliever says:

Kathleen;
Wonderful article as usual. The hibernating in your cave has paid off. I do understand and felt as though I was sitting in the audience of my life story being played out. At times I have felt like an impostor in my own life. I have been the do-gooder and try to fill my “acceptance” need to my detriment. My Father was so charming and a great story teller everyone outside my family loved him. He loved outside people easily but was unable to have any deepth of love for us. He was a periodic alcoholic, and a time-bomb with no set time to go off. I was always good because I didn’t want to set him off. It didn’t matter. I am aware that I am a “care-taker”, problem-solver,pleaser-if you will. I am aware that I am the only one who sets boundaries for myself. I am aware that I will help others but not to the detriment of myself. I AM AWARE! I have been awakened by the devastation of my relationship with the S. It was my first and my last. “DEVASTATION DOES NOT BUILD CHARACTER, IT REVEALS IT”. Take care and Thank You for your words of growth and wisdom.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 1:46pm

Matt;
I posted an earlier post about a “vision board” and focusing on your dream daily. What do want your life to look like is the question? It is difficult to find the answer. I would suggest volunteering in an area that you find joy. Healing comes in giving back and also makes wonderful connections with caring people. You won’t find an S actually doing any work- so you should be safe there. If you want to go after Comedy- go volunteer at a (ours is called the Peace Center) and we have all kinds of famous performers. You can volunteer and see Free shows! It is a great way to make connections! You have to get out there and try things out and see what it is you love! As always, I wish you the Best!
P.S. Great Book: Live the Life You Love, Barbara Sher. She has a great web-site too!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 1:54pm

I have been away for a while myself- but it is because such great things that are happening in my life. Despite the fact that I am not divorced yet and still paying the S debt. I have made great progress. I am healing and still have days, but mostly healing. I feel that I have been restored and have taken positive “action” toward my healing. I have suffered through and been reclusive as well. You have to- it is part of the process. But I have GREAT NEWS! I just finished my Masters +30 in Literacy! I have been focused this year and have completed 9 grad hours on-line since the Fall. Akitameg- at almost 51 yrs. old. Go for it! No one can take away your education. It is empowering! I had never taken an on-line course before. It was a new challenge and one that I accomplished! My pay increases! I also have a new job next year in the same school- I am the new Literacy Coach! I will be teaching other teachers and working with students to help improve reading! I have worked hard for this position and was told that with the budget cuts that it would not exist. I let go but continued to work toward the education and dream at the same time. I envisioned it. I will be conducting presentations and professional development! It was such a surprise! YiPEEEE!
My son is cancer-free and is going to work toward becoming a Physical therapist. My older son is traveling with a job that he loves! Life feels real and so much better! I am living a “healthy selflessness” as you mentioned,LTL. Not selfish- Self Aware! “TOWANDA”! as Oxy says

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 2:33pm

Kathleen,

Holy smokes, that was some powerful knowledge you kindly shared with us.

I do appreciate you taking the time to research literature focusing on such a complex subject as Psychology, incorporating your own life experiences, relationships into the material and sharing with us.

Your tireless effort geared towards helping others as well as yourself, means so much to me.

But oh MAN….I will not lie and say that this particular essay was easy breezy for me to read and process.

I was decidedly uncomfortable, a little sad many times, and nodding my head in a wry fashion because I could see myself in almost every word you wrote.

Yes, it hurts which resolutely confirms for me that my earlier words written on here stating I’m healed and all better now were either hints at false bravado, or me still lingering in denial, or quite possibly completely unaware of my situation until you helped to spell it out for me.

How can I truly understand the depth of my own “broken cog” if I am unwilling to take as many steps as I need, viewing myself objectively and my unhealthy patterned behaviors and actions? I simply won’t be able.

I must confess to you all that exposing my soft underbelly, exposing my fragility and vulnerability to people is THE most terrifying thing I can do.

I’ve always been the “strong” one, the “capable” one, the “resilient” one….or so I’ve been repeatedly told or led others to believe. But in reality, I fall down so very many times that it takes every ounce, fiber of my being to even want to get back up again.

I thinks it’s obvious, by the tone of my writing, that I’m gloomy today. This is the first time on LF that I’m actually commenting when I’m in this “state” of mind. It is so scary for me to openly express myself to you all but I’m never going to move forward if I continue to nurse my heartache wounds, continue to be haunted by my past painful involvements with friends and lovers.

Of course, I have more good days than bad days where I feel serene, joyful, content and excited to be alive. Today ain’t one of those days.

I’ve been involved with 5 men in the past 3 years and I feel like such a slut for even admitting that to you all. I recently split from a fella that I was regularly seeing for about 3 months.

Compared to the mentally damaged dudes before him, I thought I had hit the jackpot (another appropriate gambling analogy, Kathleen). He is a good man, don’t get me wrong, but as Kathleen wrote up above, I was just trying too damn hard.

Trying to please him in my way, not really carefully, cautiously observing him and listening deeply to what he was saying to me, just….being my overly enthusiastic, nurturing, generous self. Too much of a good thing can overwhelm a person and that’s exactly what I did.

I believe he began to take me for granted, to not appreciate me like I appreciated him, and I could intuitively feel him withdrawing from him. I told him I just couldn’t do this anymore. That I instinctively felt he wasn’t interested any longer and that can’t be good for me and I won’t settle for crumbs, or to be treated like I’m insignificant.

I told him I was sorry and to please not call me again. It’s been a week and he hasn’t. In the beginning I was super satisfied with my decision as I was angry and disappointed. Now…I’m not so angry any longer and I hurt, I’m sad.

This too shall pass, but it sooo sucks, doesn’t it?

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 3:05pm

Thanks you Henry and Kathleen Hawk,

When I read this one line I really didn’t need to read the rest, but I did. This came from my heart and sure all that read it will know that. But thanks again for putting it in print. I do know how hard something like this can be when trying to write it. Not really sure if I could ever do it myself. But all that you stated was “right on point”. The hardest part of our recovery is looking at self. Not only is it so hard but so scary at times. All our monsters that we once thought were gone turn out to be alive and well inside of that inner child’s world that you speak of. I am trying to help my inner child understand that it’s alright to be mad and sad because it changes nothing and I will always be there for him and both must learn to love and care for each other.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 3:34pm

Thanks these great comments, JAH, JaneSmith, truebeliever and James, and for reading my long-winded replies. One of these days, I will learn how to be concise. But here, with apologies, is another long response.

I’ve added a little caveat at the beginning of this article that it might not make sense to everyone. There is no way it’s going to make sense until several things have happened in the healing process.

One is that we have clearly “externalized” the source of our problem and realized that it had nothing to do with us. We were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and we got run over by a bad-luck truck. Another thing is that we realize that we have real losses, and we surrender to the grieving and letting go process.

The first part of this occurs in anger. The last part of it is the move from anger into another stage.

Anger is necessary. It is the only way we ever get clear about the fact that something bad happened to us, that its source was external to us, and that it was out of our control. Once we get clear about all this, we can start fighting back to recover the integrity of our boundaries. And in doing that, we recover a sense of our own power to affect our lives.

But that fight also clarifies what we can change and what we can’t. We can’t change the fact that we were injured and frightened. That something was taken from us. That it left us with residue of feelings and other material losses. We can change the present by our actions, but there is nothing we can do about the past. And it is the past, in many ways, that we are living with. We have to resolve that somehow in order to truly repair ourselves. Finally, we become more effective at healing our material circumstances after we heal our emotional residue.

While anger brings us to clear awareness of loss, it is also a way to avoid it. Anger focuses on what is wrong, but it does it in a way that continually demands change. We keep looking at our problems as something that can be fixed, either by exerting our power on the outside world or on ourselves. It is a big and difficult step to move from angry action to surrender to what cannot be fixed. We have to trust that we can survive this. And part of anger’s role in healing is to remind us of how strong we truly are, so that we have the courage and faith in ourselves to surrender to loss.

None of this involves changing our minds about what was bad for us. We don’t have to betray ourselves in that way to move into the next stage after anger. There is no question that it was bad for us, because we have lost something we didn’t want to lose. We hold onto that awareness as we move into grieving and letting go. We also hold onto the awareness that the source of our loss is something outside of ourselves. We didn’t choose this. It happened to us.

However, like all the stages, grieving and letting go is a doorway to another stage. That is the topic of this article, our increasing self-awareness of our role in what happened. It has nothing to do with blame. Blame happens through the lens of anger. This is not about anger at all.

It is more about discovering what we can do without. And that journey tends to be full of surprises.

Grief is an emotion that is hardly discussed in our culture, and perhaps I should have written more about it before writing this article. It is not simply waving goodbye to something that is gone. It is being with it, loving it, honoring its presence in our lives, remembering the good of it, having a long last conversation until you have said everything you ever wanted to say. Letting go isn’t something you decide to do. It just happens when you’re finished. When we finally surrender to grief, and give it the attention is deserves, we not only let go in a healthy way, but we also release and free all the energy that was involved with the thing we lost.

This is quite literally a matter of making room for the new. We come up out of grief relieved and renewed with creative energy to spare. We have an object lesson in the fact that we can actually survive the loss and we can come out of the grieving process reborn in a way.

One of the simplest and most honest things to grieve is “the way I was before.” And that simple object of grief can lead us into our own history, especially in recovery after a sociopathic relationship. If we follow our emotions down the trail of searching for the way we were before, it usually takes very few steps to identify the primal losses, the ones that we’ve been living with — in denial, anger or fear — for a very long time.

My descriptions of reparenting my inner child are really descriptions of a quick grief process. Facing the irretrievable loss, relieving my inner child of denial, bargaining and anger, comforting her and letting it go for myself, and then living on as an adult with knowledge of my own survival. In my experience, this is a powerful process with many positive reverberations through my memories, through my perspectives and general level of emotional maturity.

But I’m not sure I would have done any of it, if I hadn’t begun with facing the losses I feel right now. Of admitting that something terrible happened to me, that I couldn’t change it, that all the anger in the world wouldn’t fix it because it was over, and that I was just going to have to surrender to grief. That freed me and made me aware that what I though was necessary to my survival wasn’t, and opened my mind to more of the same process.

And in that state, I began to clean house. Not intentionally, in the sense that I started beating myself up about everything that didn’t work. But it just opened me up to looking at things to see if they worked, and if they didn’t, why not?

We have nothing to be ashamed of. Really. We’ve been doing the best we could, and we did well. We’re here. Survivors. We believed in the redeeming power of love. And we weren’t wrong; it just took us a while to grasp that it had to start with ourselves. This focus on our own healing begins to deliver real results now. Now is when it really stops being about them, and starts being about becoming who we really are.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 6:26pm

I’m not concerned with the length of your posts. What interests me is the content and if they need to be long…so be it!

After spilling my guts to the cyber-world and then rereading what I had written (1,2,3 times..)..I actually FEEL much better.

How’s that for resiliency? Or I would prefer to define it as being mercurial rather than having erratic mood swings…haha.

Thank the LORD above for giving me my goofy, practical humor. It has kept me from flinging myself off the nearest sidewalk curb in frustration and disgust!

My heart and mind are still in serious conflict right now, but as you said grieving is not only beneficial to us but also necessary.

I don’t discount nor disregard nor invalidate ANY of my emotional reactions, processes. They exist. They are what they are and to me….they are vastly important and crucial to my well being.

I’m beginning to put into practice what LTL so eloquently describes as…”a healthy selfishness”

Makes good common sense to me.

Thank you LTL and thank you again, Kathleen.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 7:02pm

And a few personal notes, after that extension of the article.

JAH, you’re developing your power or learning how to use it more and more effectively. Everything you write says that. Your work is a fabulous use of power, and if you feel that anger is a necessary trigger, be angry. But I suspect that you’re moving toward being a person who is comfortable with the use of power and able to recognize circumstances when that kind of influence is needed. If you ever feel that your life is moving in that direction and you want someone to talk with, drop me a note. I’ve been teaching power for years, and I’m always glad to chat with someone who’s really growing into it.

truebeliever, huge congratulations on your degree and your new position. (And your son’s good health!) You are so far down this path, and you’re such a model of how a new life is built. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for sharing.

JaneSmith, you make we laugh and hold onto my heart at the same time. You can’t imagine how many years I told people, “I’m almost done with it.” And how I finally got everyone accustomed to asking me how The Work was going. I don’t even bother to say I’m almost done anymore, but I do say that it’s about me now, not about him.

I may have written this already, but one of the things I’ve realized lately is why we meditate. It’s to get perspective on our own stuff, to be able to stand back and watch ourselves get triggered. It doesn’t mean we don’t do it; it just means that we can see it and consider whether we want that running our bus.

And if you’re a slut, I’m not sure what I am. I’ve been serially monogamous (mostly) since I was 28. Out of one bed, into another, until five years ago. And it never even occurred to me that I was a relationship addict until I read “A Million Little Pieces” and realized I was some kind of addict. You and I should get together over a bottle of wine and just laugh about what goofs we are. I think your exit from your last relationship was simply beautiful. (Maybe we can get together and invent a very large, warm teddy bear that says all the right things.)

James, your words are so clear and you are so honest that I feel like I’m reading words from my own heart. I read your posts and move on, because I have nothing to add. And then I go “whoa” and go back and read them again. One little thing occurred to me. You know, you might just let your inner child cry on your shoulder. I think that’s what we really need, comfort from someone who takes us seriously and makes sure that we’re okay. If we’d had that when we were younger, we wouldn’t be dealing with all this baggage today. But we can be that now for our inner child and for ourselves.

Namaste and love.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 7:16pm

JaneSmith,

Thank-you for sharing your vulnerable down-girl with us. I really appreciate getting to know everyone here, and it helps me on my journey to see as many parts as people feel comfortable sharing.

Your description of being in this last relationship sounds like a chapter out of my relationship novel. I SO relate. It’s interesting that we can give ‘too much’ in relatively healthy relationships, and have that not work to our benefit, or the longevity of the relationship. I think, in a way, when we don’t ask enough from an intimate partner (an normal intimate partner, I am not talking about the personality disordered), and we rush in and overplay our role, we disable them a bit.

I have wondered about this. If it is demasculinating, or inhibits some men from giving fully of themselves when they are attracted to large and in charge, super-giving women. Or if that IS the attraction, because they are relatively lazy or ambivalent. Hmmnnn.

I have chosen to be alone (for the first time since I was 13, and I am 48!), for the last 20 months. I posted early on in this thread about how I simply cannot DO relationship since the s experience. And how much that aggrevates/frustrates certain parts of my personality.

And, if your’e too worried about your sluttiness….we should grab a drink some time and I’ll make you feel downright virginal by telling you about some of my periods of sexual freedom and relationship usage!

Again, thanks for giving it up to us…

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 7:19pm

Kathleen Thank you again. It is people like you and this site that have helped me heal. It is the connection and understanding of the insanity that we have all experienced with the S. I read your long posts with much pleasure and fortitude. It is what you say that is important and you have brought it home for so many of us. It is letting go of things we can not change. I have clung to the Serenity Prayer during this healing and your post reminded me of it so much.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

You have the wisdom and now know the difference in your acceptance and letting go. Take care!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 7:45pm

JaneSmith, thank you for sharing. It is a safe haven here for any kind of day we are having and you will find the love and encouragement that you need to make it through. You are brave to make the decision that you made for the better of yourself! TOWANDA! You do deserve better and need to up the ante! I am not dating at all since I am not divorced yet and I have spent more time trying to get a divorce than I was married (1 year)to the S. He was a wonderful guy only he lived a dark second life that slowly unfolded. I knew that I had to pack him up and divorce him before it got worse. It was the most painful experience. It was like the hiker who’s right arm was caught by a falling boulder and he had to cut it off with his pocket knife because he knew it would be the death of him if he did not. It is a crazy making situation! We all want to put a band-aid on it with something or someone else. It’s just that we need to take inventory and see how we want things to be from now on. It is great that you are making changes. You are the only one who can make those choices. You let a guy know how to treat you.
I read a book that I bought myself for Valentines Day, “how not to date a LOSER (a guide to making smart choices) by Georgia Schaffer it is a great guide! Also just finished Act Like a Lady-Think Like a Man by Steve Harvey and it was humorous and so true! These were helpful but nothing prepares you for the dealings of an S. Take care Girl!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:06pm

Stargazer says:

Well, everyone, I have been battling with depression lately. I recently figured out it has gotten wired into my brain chemistry but I cannot afford meds or psychiatrists. So I found some natural supplements in my drawer and took them. They are working, and I’m starting to feel normal again, but just very angry. I’m not angry at the sociopath but other people in my life who are pushing my buttons. It would just be healthier for me to express myself but I always hold back because I don’t think the other person will hear it. Plus, the things that are pushing my buttons are silly things that I feel I shouldn’t be getting upset over. Things people are saying on my other internet forum, such as people trying to cram their political views down other people’s throats. Why should this bother me so much? It’s ONLY the internet? I too was raised in an environment where I was not allowed to be angry. So I learned a lot of indirect ways to deal with it, the worst of which is turning in inward. I have burning things to say to some of these people I’m angry at, but I fear it will do no good and I will only stir up a pot. I doubt these people care how I feel! I wish I could just let go of the anger, but I feel I have to start speaking up for myself. Not being able to do it is like being in hell. It’s eating me up. Why can’t I just say what I need to say and be done with it? Or why can’t I just tune these people out? I hate this.

BTW, Justabout healed, I’m envious that you saw a rattler up close and personal. As usual, everyone runs into snakes except me, even when I’m looking for them.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:35pm

I think I have a lifetime of experience that when I try and express my feeling to the person who hurt me–whoever that is–they just don’t care, and I end up feeling worse.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:37pm

Stargazer (and for anyone else who is looking for how to express anger), here is how I learned how to do it in non-violent communication.

First, we accept that the anger is ours. Our issue with something that triggers it in us.

Second, we accept that we are triggered by this thing, because it represents an unmet need. (See needs at http://www.cnvc.org/node/179.)

Third, we accept that we are communicating our own truth, and other people will do with it what they choose.

Fourth, we have the option of making a request, but they have the option of agreeing to it or not.

So here are some examples:

When you talk about your political views in ways that make me feel like I’m being forced to agree, I feel angry, because I have a need to make my own choices.

or (with a tip of the hat to my ex)

When you have sex with other people, I feel disgusted, because I need more trustworthiness in my life.

or (to an ex-boss)

When you criticize your employees in front of customers, it makes me feel outraged, because I have a need for loyalty.

or (to the ex again)

When you hint about something you want me to pay for, I am irritated because I have needs for honesty and self-reliance.

Expressing anger in this way is actually a lot of work, because you have to figure out what need is not being met. It forces you to get real with yourself, to own up to what you really want.

But the result can be really good in terms of speaking authentically and also taking ownership of your feelings and needs.

In addition, there is nothing to argue about. Because you are talking about your feelings and your needs, and you’re the only expert on these things.

We can’t make people do anything about our feelings or needs. But we can learn a lot about them by what they do after we express ourselves. If they ignore us or tell us we’re wrong, we know that they don’t want to know. And what are we doing, hanging around with people who don’t care about us?

Or if we’re forced to deal with them, like in Stargazer’s situation, make it’s time to exert a little power on the situation. My recollection is that you’ve done it before, SG, and it came out really well.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:22pm

Thanks for the praise, sweety. I am so digging your superb idea about drinking some wine, nibbling on some cheese, soaking up some rays of sunshine….and behaving as goofy and silly as we can possibly be!

Only, my suggestion would be to invent a fabulous male automaton instead of a fuzzy bear. Give him the bod of Brad Pitt, the stellar character of Abraham Lincoln, and the brains, imagination of William Gibson and….VOILA! SUPER-DUDE! (for the fellas on here, I’m only kidding…or am I really?)

Slimone,

Thank you, doll, for responding and sharing with me. You have offered me awesome food for thought, you lovely woman. It’s so cool that you can also relate to my experience with yes, a relatively healthy, good, decent man yet….it crashed and burned.

I don’t place blame on myself. That’s not going to solve anything, you know? But it has become crystal clear to me that like you, I’m simply not even close to being ready for any type of involvements with men at this time.

I need a break. I’m tired of expending energy and receiving nothing in return. I’m pooped.

C’est la guerre , as they say in Paris Land.

And I laughed at your sluttiness comment…haha. HILARIOUS! Only…uh…I was referring to the last five years.

There ain’t NO WAY I’m going to spill the beans regarding my “gleeful pleasure seeking experimentation during my 20s” era.

That smug horse has left the stable and she ain’t coming back!

Hugs to all…xxooo

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:30pm

OxDrover says:

My dear Janie,

I have been off and on LF for the last few days (been very busy in RL and things going on) but since you posted in a few days ago, I have felt there was “something going on” with my Janie! I just read your post above (your cyber guts as it were) my dear Janie, as the others have said, “if I could only tell you my full story” you might feel like a retro-virgin! (((hugs)))))

There is no way I could tell you, just how much I would love to have a loving man in my life, but like you, it can’t be “just half way” or “just anyone” to fill that void. There were times that the need for a man in my life was so strong I let myself be lured and hooked by an s-path-hole (thanks, Henry! for that term) and ultimately HURT by the spathole.

But Janie, it seems to me that you are “blaming” yourself for “giving more” or “driving him away” by giving too much. Or “blaming” yourself because you can’t “settle” for less than a very loving relationship in which the othr party idolizes you.

My dear dear friend Janie, you deserve ONLY the very BEST! You GIVE only the BEST! There is nothing worng at all with giving your best to someone you care for, that’s just being the SPECIAL JANIE you are! If he didn’t respond or reciprocate that specialness, it is NOT because there is anything deficient about you, or maybe, even about him, it just is WHAT IT IS.

The fact that you were STRONG ENOUGH to recognize that it was not quite “mutual enough” for YOUR needs is perfectly WONDERFUL! So many people, it seems, will settle for “nearly enough” or “not quite enough” because they think it is the “best they can do.”

Some people tell us (or at least told me, in the past) “You’ll never find Mr. Perfect, so you better take what you can get and not expect perfection.” What they don’t understand is that I don’t expect to find a “Mr. Perfect;,”( in a mate, friend, child, etc. or any other relationship.) While I accept that none of us are perfect, I do expect HONESTY, and I set the bar VERY HIGH on that!

One of the things I also became very aware of (in all this self analysis on the road to healing) was my very strong sexuality, and my sexual “idenity,” as it were. This was in a way such a strong “need” with me, that when suddenly “single,” with the death of my husband, and then later, with the departure of the X-Spathole- boy friend, that my grief was focused, I think, more on the fact that I can’t “settle” for a “Friend-with-benefits” (which are readily available, even to us older—I mean “more mature” —LOL Ladies.

I’m mentoring a young woman (26) now as she goes through her divorce from an spathole and tries to sort out her new idenity as a single woman, single mother, etc. In observing her and listening to and supporting her, I am learning more about myself, I realized, than she is about herself in the process. There is no difference between the lovely 26 year old woman that she is, and the not quite so outwardly lovely 62 year old, that I am. It is just that our society has a “problem” with the sexuality of “old biddies” my age, and doesn’t with lovely young ladies….yet we are the same woman INSIDE, with the same needs and desires….to be loved and cherished.

While I have been coming to terms with the facts and the statistics of the REALITY that me finding a man who (1) would be interested in me and (2) would be acceptable to my NEW standards of honesty and mutality are about like the chances of me winning the lotto with one ticket purchased—I think it is 13 million to ONE! I am also coming to terms with the truth that I cannot accept ANY LESS than a person who would love me, desire me and need me as much as I would him.

I am now not looking for *someone,* but am looking for *some*ONE.* In this quest, I realize too, that I am OK with never finding this someONE, but will sure NOT settle for “someone” instead. I’m not totally sure exactly how I came to this point, this milestone on the Road to Healing, but one day I looked up and realized I was there….and seeing and hearing the thoughts and feelings of the young woman I am mentoring, supporting, as she goes through her own journey of discovering her own needs, wants, and desires, I see myself even more clearly.

It is “odd” to me sometimes, where our own discoveries come from, and many times they are from when we reach out and help another, or when we reach out and validate ourselves.

I too have always been the “strong one” and almost felt it a shame to admit that I too had NEEDS AND DESIRES. That I too felt lonely and alone and needy. It isn’t though, Janie, it isn’t “weakness” or something wrong with us that we need and desire a mate to love, and who loves us. It simply means we are HUMAN! Acknowledging those needs and desires IS STRENGTH. Also, NOT SETTLING FOR LESS THAN WE DESERVE is our greatest strength as well.

Janie, my dear dear friend, I SALUTE YOUR STRENGTH and your honesty! All my love and prayers for you, and I am glad you came “home” where we can support you as you grow even stronger! ((((hugs)))))

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:43pm

Truebeliver,

Aww…thank you for your kind words and support. Of course, what you are going through is nothing compared to what I’m dealing with. It’s small potatoes and I’m ok.

This is a wonderful, loving safe haven and I will admit I have a healthy addiction to LF.

As I wrote some where, in one of the gazillion threads on here, that you all resonate with me on so many levels that I sincerely believe that we are all kindred spirits. The good guys. The ones who not only wish to have beautiful lives for ourselves but for others also.

I will not give up my idealistic, optimistic yet solidly realistic views for anyone. I am me and you are you and we are valuable human beings.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:52pm

Wait!

I wrote that wrong! My bad….glurp!

It’s suppose to read…”Of course, what I am dealing with is nothing compared to what you are going through”

I am so very sorry, Truebeliever. I’m a dork, plain and simple.

I would never, in a million years, ever trivialize your heartbreaking experiences with frikkin predators. I hate them for me and for you.

Forgive me…..

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 10:00pm

Have this guy at work that continues to berate me and find fault when there is none. I am getting all kinds of praise from the Boss but this guy just kept making me feel like a dumbass when I know I know more than he does about most things pertaining to my job. So I asked him “Does this make you feel powerful to put down other people?’ Do you get a rush when you think you can look down your nose at other’s just because you have been around here longer than most? Do you like being a bully? –Because if you do that makes you a monster and I will not take this disrespect from you…He was speechless – turned around and left and has not said another word to me… I felt powerful – not so long ago I would of yes sir yes sir and felt as I deserved it – I am proud of me …dont know if he is a butt head or a physcopath but he knows I got his number—towanda~~!!!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 10:30pm

Oxy darling,

I’m speechless, touched and awe struck at your post directed to and for me. And for your lovely self as well.

I have realized, this very day, that I had to confront my deep seated fear of exposing my frailty, my vulnerablity to others. I needed to share, with the loving compassionate people on LF my fear so I can truly begin to heal, to see the light.

Yes, sweety, I’m human. Just like you. Just like all of us. I’ve known that forever. I simply didn’t have the courage, before today, to express who I truly am. To you. To all.

Now, I have and it feels good!

Onward and forward, wot wot!

Btw—I watched a great documentary years ago (when I had the cable, satellite and such) about women in their 60s, 70s and 80s and their enthusiastic sex lives or them wanting enthusiastic sex lives.

I’ve never doubted for a minute that women in their “golden years” have healthy sex drives and want to have healthy sex for as long as it’s possible. Hey, I’m gonna be one of those gals, for pete’s sake!

Like you, doll, I want the whole-kit-&-kaboodle or I don’t want anything from men. It DOES cause problems for me to engage in sex with strange men and I won’t do it! Heaps of problems.

Love to you, Oxy and again….thank you so much for being my friend. It is an honor for me.

xxoooxxoooos!!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 10:43pm

Kathleen,
You are so right. I even had a dream that I was sitting next to the girl and we were both on our computers typing on our website. I started to indirectly confront her on the website. Then I just turned around and talked to her, telling her how I felt disrespected by her comment. I’ve already let a week or two go by, and I’ve had other communications with her and not mentioned it, so it gets harder. I’m usually a very good communicator. It’s finding the courage to actually do it. It’s easier with some than with others. I had no problem confronting the woman who owes me money. In fact, she even coughed up a few dollars. But this one is harder. I know I need to just do it. I really hate that this is the way out of depression. No wonder I’ve been depressed for so long. I hate confrontations. Usually when there is one, there turn out to be a whole slew of others that I need to confront too. It can be overwhelming sometimes. Like climbing a mountain.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 10:59pm

Henry,
You are the king of confrontation. I need just one iota of your strength to deal with my bully!

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 11:00pm

not really stargazer – but I have a new awarness of what is right and what is wrong. What is acceptable and what is not. I guess it is boundaries…see I have learned here. I respect myself and know that there are people out there that get a high by disrespecting other’s. I don’t have to take that. I ‘think out loud’ alot here on this blog – just feeling good about confronting him and putting him in his place. I was very polite about the whole thing…actually I am feeling and aware of things now. I know people that have a mean streak and I dont have to be around them and if I do and they try that bullshit on me I will kindly let them know that I am aware of what makes them tick and dont try it with me because it just simply does not work – anymore…

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 11:19pm

newworld view says:

kathleen thank you for you exhaustive explanations….you guide many……..can you help me to see why those of us who lost support/protection at such a young age or neverreally had it to lose….in coping with impending danger and searching for safety, led us to these sociopaths……….i believe it to be so, but am confused as to why you think it is so………..tks for your help, terri

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 11:36pm

maybe it is because we are always trying to keep peace and therefore trying to make everyone else happy at any cost to ourself?

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 11:43pm

learned behavior is hard to unlearn?

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 11:50pm

shabbychic2 says:

We keep repeating our trauma? I read that in The Betrayal Bond, but I’ve onlly read the first 20% of the book.

Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 11:55pm

i caught a glimps of dr. Phil today and he was talking about “learned helplessness” finding a new way to look at life is so very diffficult – but I am making progress, maybe when I am 101 I will have it all figured out

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 12:08am

persephone7 says:

Thank you Kathy because I see myself and my patterns with men related
to things that happened to me with my stepfather as a child. He didn’t
rape me at 11 but was sexually abusing me and when I went to my mother
nothing was really done. She talked to him, the physical abuse stopped and I stopped being his ‘favorite’ – no more sitting on his lap, no more
special treatment day to day. And my real father came and went, whisking my older sister and younger brother and I off to nice restaurants and occasional lunches – we knew he loved us but you just had to be happy
making yourself pretty and agreeable and keeping your grades up to feel
like you could keep HIS love and you hung on every bit of attention he
might give you during those times. I’d even hoped that when I gave
my mother the information about my stepfather that it would release us
all from his bullying and dictatorship but instead nothing was really done,
in fact it seemed as though I ended up being punished for my honesty.

So without going on and on about that…I do feel as though I’ve been
an intelligent, attractive woman like my mom but I’ve struggled with
relationships and been with two very complex and depressive men who
have perhaps been a gift to me in that I have now done alot of work
on myself through therapy as well as my own reading and self-reflection. And I have looked at this blog here and there over the past three years or more during this current 7 year on-and-off relationship with someone I’ve felt so bonded with and felt that I truly loved. But to have a successful relationship with him is an illusion – I know it is more of an addiction than anything – and when he called tonight I planned to be compassionate and ended up being angry with him, something I’m not usually comfortable with but you finally realize the
major bullshit quotient of it all and why, oh why do you continue to allow
it. I think I’ve set up these situations with certain men to re-enact the
one with my stepfather waiting, WAITING like a child for someone to step in and speak up for my rights, to actually save me! And finally,
you get it that you better speak up for YOURSELF, that no one else is going to – you have that ultimate power and right for yourself.

So thank you all, I think this is a great site. And I’ve studied the mind-body connection for some time and right now my sister is suffering with
ALS, her body gradually shutting down while her mind is still sharp and intact. And I know, I KNOW…that her last marriage to a a terribly abusive man, mainly in an emotional way – was the major contributor
to the stress and trauma visited upon the chemistry and energy of her mind and body. She tried to
hide from family, friends and herself just how bad it was – it does not pay to be the caretaker of someone who does not give you the love you
deserve! And it’s a wake-up call to look at finding out what it is YOU really want for and in your life.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 12:28am

Dear Jane,

Im really glad you are here….keep on keeping it real…Im glad when you open up and share that it actually makes you feel better….because your posts t=tally make me relate to so much and lady youve got a great sense of humor…you make me laugh!!! Love that!!

You are entitled to have a bad day or an off day (or days)… they are part of life…and sharing them…helps you not only feel a bit lighter, and more real but oh how we learn and grow – especially when we go back and reread.

Im sorry for your recent breakup — and the mixed feelings that always come along with that – its important to remember that something wasnt feeling right for you – whether it was within you – or him – something caused you to speak up and protect yourself… TOWANDA for that… and taking a break and figuring out what it was, and trusting yourself about it…will help you sort out those mixed feelings.

Again, thank you for being here, for your insight, for sharing your vulnerabilities and your strengths (as they often go hand in hand) and for the much needed laughter!

ps. Sex? Whats that?!!!!

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 7:23am

Jen2008 says:

truebeliever said:
“Also just finished Act Like a Lady-Think Like a Man by Steve Harvey and it was humorous and so true!”

I also read this book recently. Read another one too by some black dude (can’t remember the name of it at the moment) and it was more of a hip, younger directed version of Harvey’s book. But they BOTH said almost identical things about men’s views and “game” and manipulations, just in different terms and slangs. You’re right that nothing can prepare you for a sociopath, but frankly if women followed what Harvey says in his book (and yes, I know alot of women would scream it is OLD FASHIONED AND OUTDATED), but regardless, if it was followed, most sociopaths wouldn’t stick around to make us miserable in relationships.

But for the ones who did make it thru that first 90-day trial period (which includes NO SEX because just like a trial period in a job while they are decide if you are honest and dedicated and meet the job requirements, before they give you benefits like insurance, you do the same with a man before you give up the booty–hehe- –for those of you who haven’t read the book–while you’re deciding if he meets your requirements). Then if they make it thru the 90 day period, then started their “games”, we’d also stop the excuses (because we know what is going on whether they are a sociopath or not) and we’d kick their a** to the curb. GREAT BOOK in my opinion. –Jen

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 8:03am

One other thing, for those of us who have loaned money or bought things for the sociopath because the poor soul was jobless or short of cash or simply wanted it—read Harvey’s book. He touches on that sort of thing too. I can practically hear Harvey having a stroke at the very THOUGHT of a woman financing or giving a man money for ANYTHING he can’t afford to purchase himself–and he explains WHY too. –Jen

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 8:06am

lagayle59 says:

Hello Kathy,
One of many great articles, but this one will take some careful thought, because I see so much of me in this one too. I printed it out to digest it completely-thanks so much for your wonderful insights.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 9:19am

newworld view, that’s a great question — “why do those of us who lost support/protection at such a young age or never really had it to lose….in coping with impending danger and searching for safety, led us to these sociopaths?”

I think the nutshell answer is that they provide the illusion of safety. Not physical safety necessarily, because that’s not our issue. Rather emotional safety. They make us feel understood, and they feed our need to be accepted and loved for who we are.

I think that’s a universal need but, if we come out of dysfunctional family backgrounds, we grew up adapting to other people’s needs at the expense of our own. It makes us very strong in some ways, but it leaves us with huge unmet underlying needs.

And that makes us vulnerable, as well as a little wonky in the way we perceive things and how we navigate the world. We’re over-sensitive to other people’s needs, rushing to fulfill them. We over-perform in other ways. Our self-esteem is too dependent on other people’s view of us.

These are only a few of our characteristics, if we’re coming out of the dysfunctional family with a skew towards caregiving and “earning” love. I don’t even think that sociopaths have to be as clever as we give them credit for to play into this character set. In “Strategy of the Dolphin,” the book I mentioned in an earlier article, the authors break the world down into sharks and carps. Sharks are addicted to winning. Carps are addicted to being loved. If we’re giving out carp signals, and someone can figure out a few more things about us — our tastes, our socioeconomic background, our hobbies or interests — it could be pretty easy to get our attention and then hook us with love-bombing. That’s our drug.

When I was listing myself on dating sites, it always surprised me when a certain percentage of guys clearly had me pegged as a submissive type. My profiles were funny and clever, and I usually worried that they’d scare men off. But people who were looking for it could see through to my need for approval, along with my obvious career success. A nice combination for a sociopath.

Which is why I keep hammering on the point that we ultimately have to become emotionally self-sufficient. That is the difference, I believe, between people who get sucked in and the ones who don’t. Easy to say, not necessarily easy to do. Because vulnerability and need for emotional support do not only emerge from difficult childhoods, but from circumstances in current life.

Which makes it even more important that we develop skills for self-care that extend to our state of mind. Stress management, meditation, maintaining supportive social contacts, etc. all contribute to our resilience and ability to maintain our equilibrium in the face of difficulties.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 9:31am

housie says:

Hi Friends,
Kathy..The top post was so timely. I recently (3 wks ago), ended emotionally and physically a 42 yr relationship with a S, my husband of 20 yrs, and apart 17 yrs, than back together 4 months. When we got back together I had changed so much, and I quickly saw red flags everywhere. 3 weeks ago, when I had my “aha” moment, I grieved my heart out, but I was finally on the outside looking in. I had left the “cult ” of R, but the “cult” hadn’t left me. As I saw the relationship for what it was instead of what I wanted it to be, I felt feelings I know are familiar to many here. We were involved in a religious cult for 16 of the years we were together. We exited that together in 1987. In 1996 I went to Wellspring, and was told that R was a S, but didn’t “get” it until I “got” it 3 wks. ago. I feel I am well on my way to recovery, out the other side and along the path.
I have been coming to another realization these past few weeks. My 35 yr old son has been living with me for 4 months and he has MOST of the traits of his dad, the S. Of course knowing the DNA factor, I am going through another shell-shock event in my life. I feel like I am on the battlefield, and don’t even believe this or know how I can internalize this. This means not only have I lost my husband, but also my son. It would be so much easier if they had died in a plane crash, because then I would know that they loved me. All I ever wanted was a sweet family to make it different than the sick family I grew up with. I am still stuck with beating myself up for picking the S and the ramifications it has had on what I thought was our family. All I have left is my daughter, and she has ended up healthier than any of us.
I know this isn’t all about me, but right now I am in the battlefield, glaring at the casualties, and trying to avoid the landmines. I sit in the rubbish, feeling like a soldier in Saving Private Ryan. The ruins are everywhere – and they cause me to feel so much SHAME. These are not respectable losses. They are losses that evoke such deep feelings in me of how it used to be when I was young, and how similar I felt dodging Daddy’s madness and the trauma and terror I felt when Dad told mom he was going to cut her up in little pieces and throw her in the river when we were out camping. I was little and had no place to go be safe. I thought I might be next. Perhaps it was the time Dad knocked mom’s teeth out, and he came to me with blood all over his shirt and told me to watch the other 4 children while he took her to the hospital. When my mom came home she had no front teeth, and she didn’t look like my mom anymore. I lost my mom as I knew her. Thank you for letting me feel my feelings now from that. I cry so deep as I write – am just writing free-flowing. I was robbed of my childhood, and I now realize my whole life. I am 62 yrs old, and I’m just waking up out of the ruins of my life. I spent my whole life blocking reality as best as I could. Well, it’s HERE!! I feel myself changing so fast now. I feel like Rip Van Winkle when he woke up. I am just trusting the process.
It’s interesting. I’ve had an eating disorder my whole life, and I got abstinant 3 months ago. It was when I put the food down that this sanity that feels like madness started happening. It is a good thing I am in a 12 step program to facilitate my healing, and that I have a strong faith.
I have asked my son to move soon. Of course I feel guilty, as he has Bi-Polar disorder and can’t get his meds until his insurance kicks in at his place of employment in a month and a half. His life has been chaotic (wonder why). I am trying to support him w/out enabling him. I feel sorry for him because he has a S father and a mother who has not been there for him emotionally his entire life.
Thanks for allowing this site to be a safe place, where I am not judged, and there is mutual love and respect. We are kindred spirits all traveling the path at different places.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 10:02am

Thanks Kathleen Hawk,

When reading your entry all I thought about was Reinhold Niebuhr pray:

O God and Heavenly Father,
Grant to us the serenity of mind to accept that which cannot be changed;
courage to change that which can be changed, and wisdom to know the one from the other, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

When I learned of this pray when I was but a child, I never forgot it. And really can’t tell anyone just how much it help me to understand that there are things about ourselves and others that we can’t change but their are things that we can and must change. Only through wisdom can one understand the difference and then learn to live with that with serenity and courage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_prayer

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 11:29am

kathleen tks sooooo much for your response…….i love that you have paved the way for so many i hope to try some of your self care ideas towards finding peace we are such a curious bunch here at lf, so tks for you patience in answering our questions terri

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 11:48am

Skippy says:

Thanks so much, Kathleen Hawk! Very helpful perspectives. I haven’t had a chance to read the comments, but I did want to say that your insights are helping me in my process to let go of the self-pity I often felt for myself and my lonely, scary childhood and to start to feel some true compassion. And this compassion makes me want to take care of myself instead of “buck up” constantly and try to please others, which I believe now, in this context, is actually a weakness, not a strength. Thank you.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 2:27pm

Dear Housie,

To me, losing my family to the personality disorders, especially my P-son, has been the most painful of all the losses. Coming to grips with the fact that the people whom you WANTED to trust and love so badly, being abusive of you is the worst of the loses. Over and above the financial losses, the perception of safety lost, etc.

Coming through the “fires” of the pain and disillusions eventually does quit “burning” our minds, souls and skins, and peace does come to our souls and minds. A new view of life, the new priorities we should accept, and realizing that we ARE important and that those losses are not the loss of our selves. Our self is still there, waiting to be nurtured.

Hang on, and take care of yourself! You are no longer responsible for the “others”—even your son is no longer your responsibility. ((((hugs)))) and always prayers.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 5:53pm

To OxDrover, I notice you’ve been writing here for some time and enjoy your posts. I’ve had a situation today which I’m not proud of – and after reading my own post, I realize I’ve been looking at this site for several years and am STILL involved in a relationship that has had some wonderful moments but that I once again have been hung out to dry. And what do I expect – I stood my ground the other night, he seemed to listen though turned most of it back on me – I wouldn’t accept the blame and told him he had alot of nerve to always say that I could call him back (I’ve done it with varying response) or that I always seem to want to ‘bring up the past’ in our relationship. Well, just because it is the past today doesn’t get around the fact that it was just recently the present for
me to live through and deal with – and he is the one who puts things out to me that he’s going to do (or call) and then does not follow through. And now I go back to an old self that second guesses herself and thinks perhaps I am being petty and just need to go about my life while he’s busy – which I do…but at the same time, isn’t it healthy and polite to have consideration of another person’s day and life, especially when that
person is supposedly the primary person in your life?

And yet I stood my ground last night but wouldn’t say those words, ‘Yes,
I want to be done with this relationship” because in fact, I don’t want to – something in me still does not wanr to really say goodbye to him and even thinks that I may have taken the easy way out in labelling him a sociopath – and yet so many traits fit his behavior with me.

And 7 years of this – it’s now 10 years since my 2nd husband died and
I swore to myself that I would not go down the road of drama and murky
scenarios any more with anyone, or love that is not founded on trust and
actual week-to-week fun with one another.

Anyway, just feeling low and I know that’s part of the deal. I’ll get back
up again- maybe be back here. He called earlier today and we seemed
back on track, and he said he’d call in a couple of hours and come up –
and now nothing for 4-5 hours, this is so familiar and I really feel as though I’m being punished for my words to him last night and then acting
more ‘normal’ today (as he did) – and I feel as though I deserve it at
this point. Just when I was feeling strong and clear, I allow myself to
get knocked back down. I just emailed a friend who many years ago
was my sponsor – she helped me through my 2nd marriage to an alcoholic and I met her through Al-Anon – I want to get rid of my own
addiction to bad love.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 7:13pm

Housie, welcome to LoveFraud. I read your post this morning as I was running out the door to a dentist appointment, and didn’t have time for a thoughtful response. The time with the dentist turned into an unexpected and very complicated extraction, so I came home and went to sleep. All this is apology for being so long to respond.

Your clear and unashamed talk about your painful background sounds like you’ve been through a lot of therapy. Good for you. And good for you too that you were able to judge and decide what was right for you in this second round with your husband. You said that you feel like you are looking at the ruins of your life, but it sounds to me like you have ownership of the most important things. Your sanity. Your understanding of what is right and not right for you. Your ability to take care of yourself in ever-developing ways.

I hope you have some therapeutic support right now. It sounds like you’re handling a lot, and you’ve been handling a lot for a long time.

I feel for your bipolar son too. I’m not a big advocate of psychotropic drugs, but there’s no question that they really help bipolar people get centered, if they’re willing to give up the highs of the manic swing. (It’s a hard thing to give up.)

I hope you look around the site, and read more of the articles. My series is on recovery from trauma, but there are many good articles here.

I wish you well with pulling your life together and finding some peace.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 7:42pm

Kathleen; you really do have a keen sense of understanding the dysfunctional upbringing. You nailed it once again! You are clear. I do think that we have to have an awareness of our heart on our sleeves but also realize that the world does need creative, caring, kind people like us. I was doing very well when I met the S. He saw that in me and pursued me. I should have gone with my gut (first instinct). I thought he was a player and I would not date him. It was a year later and he asked me to lunch. He was kind and sweet and charming. He played this out to the Hilt! He romanced me and payed for it all. He had not wanted to marry anyone else since his first marriage (10 years). His sisters even said that I was the ONE for him. I went on a business trip to Vegas with him after we had dated for 7 months and he took me to the top of the Stratesphere and proposed on one knee with tears in his eyes. I was a smitten kitten. I did not sleep with him too soon, I met his older children-he met mine, I met his whole family at a family reunion. He was very proud of me and my confidence. I had just earned my Masters degree later in life. He had a college degree and worked in Insurance for years. But his dark side is very dark. I was married to two very different people. My Counselor said that I was like the trophy wife for him. That I was his stability. That I made him seem normal to others. She also said that it is so hard to tell if you are dealing with an S. They are professionals and we are not accustom to this way of thinking or behaving. It’s not normal! We are kind and NORMAL- even with our dysfunctional upbringing we do not treat people badly as the S does. There is no justifying their abuse. It is a mental dysfunction that can not be fixed. I even confronted him about everything- right when it happened. He avoided direct answers and made excuses. I saw through him. This whole thing blows me away when I think about it. He was the fake one and he crumbled in a short period of time. One puzzle piece at a time. I gathered the pieces and the whole picture was revealed. Painful revelation.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 8:09pm

Henry,

Good for you on setting your boundaries of respect! TOWANDA! to YOU!

Another good book, Stand Up For Your Life by Cheryl Richardson.

Keep up the GREAT JOB not putting up with those bullies!

Take care!

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 8:23pm

Henry,
I’m usually pretty good about boundaries too. But it seems it’s a waste of time to confront some people cause they are very insensitive and just don’t get it. It’s always a victory to me when I set a boundary and someone respects it. But endless arguing with immature people on the internet seems pointless. When I sense my point will not be heard, I fold.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 8:54pm

One last thought before I go to bed.
I think that we try to rationalize the situation or S experience in a “normal” manner and it can’t be done. You do not know that you have dealt with an S until after the fact. You would not deliberately hook up with one- if you knew the facts upfront, you would run the other way. Until it is revealed you just do not know what you are dealing with. They do have a clever way of masking the other self that they harbor. Eventually their facade will crumble and the dark side is revealed. It is a hit and run situation. You are left the victim of betrayal and deception.
Take Care! Be kind to yourself.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 9:02pm

Truebeliever –

Thank you for some very insightful thoughts. For me, making “sense” of all this, which, ironically, means letting go of trying to make sense out of it from any “normal” perspective, has been very helpful (primarily in terms of letting go of any hope of working things out and also letting go of self-blame). You are so right. Trying to rationalize the situation in a “normal” manner can’t be done. And yes, we wouldn’t hook up with them deliberately if we knew. Hit and run. So very true.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 9:13pm

Stargazer – your comment ‘endless arguing on the internet’ too me that is like arguing with a sociopath, they hide behind the mask or in the case of the internet behind the saftey of their keyboards and locked door and anonymenity (sp) – every chaty room has it share of bullys and evil people – it’s as pointless for me to argue with a chatroom asshole as it would be a sociopath – neither is really present or physically real – save your energy for a real conversation with an intelligent human with real compassion and the capacity to engage – sometime a great conversation is better than sex…or good foreplay…

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 10:14pm

kindheart48 says:

hey guys, havn’t been blogging lately been so darn busy. I was lying in bed last night thinking ” what the hell has happened” kind of thing. Where did the 6 years with the s go to , almost as if it flashed before my eyes. Still fighting a bit of temptation to call and reem him out but i’ve had so many men who care validating and encouraging me to forget and move on it would just make him think im still hung up on him. It really is baffling when i think of how stupid and meaningless everything was with him, esp the no sex at all part(sorry guys but it’s hitting me all at once and i can’t beleive i forfetted that as well). I fluctuate between hating him , revenge and at times forgetting him briefly(something i did not think poss a month ago) so i hope im on the road to recovery. It’s as if i want to go back and tie him up. gag him and make him listen to every hideous thing i ever want him to know and what others know etc. just to feel vidicated but as one gentleman told me recentley(known him since age of 12) who wouldn’t give a dam anyway so why get myself all worked up. It’s kind of sickening when i think of all the credit i gave him , things i denied etc. and now im actually starting to accept the truth and i have to admit how wrong . The earlier post is so true, if i had known what kind of man he was i wouldn’t have looked in his direction but when you’ve never met it , you don’t know what it is so i have to learn to forgive myself. I feel like i’ve kind of met the devil but i’ve been given the opportunity to get away and be grateful. I don”t like the empty meaningless waste of energy i spent on him but it’s done and i cannot change it and i know people who care about me will not hold it against me. I wish everyone easy no contact. love kindheart

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 11:32pm

Unbound Angel says:

Hi Kathleen…

Thank you for this wonderful post…was a pleasure to read it. I am new to LF….and I am 5yrs into recovery from a NP relationship of 10yrs.

“It is really about us waking from a dream” while I prefer to call it a nightmare..it is definately about waking up.

I agree, that we enter into and remain in these relationships due to past trauma(s)….I call this the pain body…my understanding is that relating pain bodies will attract…so it is..yes imperative that we all look within to find those issues or traumas that make us so attractive or attracted to S/NP’s. I also believe that the unresolved pain body is what makes it so hard to let go..and move on.

I have come to understand that resolution, satisfaction will never be found externally.

I am still struggling with trust and fear. Just the thought of having to go through this type of a relationship again…gives me the dry heaves ! even with the 5 yrs that has passed…but I know..that boundaries and choice play a huge role..in what I am willing or not willing to experience in my life…going forward.

I am seeing a therapist..which is helpful and I am dealing with alot of my past issues now..which will reinstate my ability to trust and to engage in life…without the fear. At least that is what I am hoping will happen.

Thanks again….I will be reading along I am sure. Angel

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 12:05am

kindheart: Hi! That is great that you sometimes just forget about him! Cool! I like what you said: “but when you’ve never met it, you don’t know what it is so I have to learn to forgive myself”. That is what I am struggling with because I started reading here over a year ago but I still got caught up with an S, repeating my childhood trauma over and over? I forgive myself, but I don’t want to repeat this again.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 12:26am

christie lee says:

Hello…I was just thinking that in the last 5 years I’ve had a fiance die in my arms, another fiance get cancer and leave me once he was well, and then a sociopath who abandoned me in a motel in Montana, 9 hours from home. He said all along that he had the power to make me forget all the painful memories of my past. Well sure enough, he has made me forget. It just seems as if everything I used to know is overshadowed now. I find myself thinking back to times and places where he took me, picking through the day in my mind, finding the lies. People have told me their version of him, mixing up what I had thought had happened.. the last thing I need to do is try to put together a puzzle with so many pieces missing, yet I can’t stop. I literally cringe when the light comes on and more lies appear. This is pure poison to me…whatever stage I may be in. In a million years I would have never thought that I would be pouring my heart out online about anything, but I have been told it helps…thanks for listening..

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 1:16am

blueskies says:

Christie Lee
You are not alone. This picking through and trying to piece together what happend is part of the process, I find myself doing it constantly, trying so hard to understand what on earth happend to me. Its so hard when you think back and another lie appears, each time the light comes on, the penny drops about something that happend that felt weird at the time, I feel like throwing up, and often do. Its all so hard to wrap your head around, that this wasnt just a relationship that ‘went bad’… that you were being manipulated and played with from the very start to the finish.That you were in some kind of trance… All of this will never make sense, because they dont make sense, there are NO reasons why, the pieces will NEVER fit together in any satisfactory way. I think all I can do is continue to go through what I am going through, I come back to the same thought over and over again, It was all just a lie…ALL of it and I hope that soon I will get tired, or past this repetative part of the process and pick up these ill fitting pieces and throw them away. I think you HAVE to do this for a certain period…its part of the waking up. Be kind to yourself. Come here and read and write and give yourself as long as you need to process things.

My relationship with a sociopath came after I had experienced the sudden death of my father, a traumatic child birth experience and a near death experience – all ontop of an abusive upbringing, I was extremely vulnerable and I hadnt ‘dealt’ with any of it. I now need to eject the poison of this fantasy relationship and work on fiixng myself and deal with the REAL things in my life.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 2:57am

Talking about waking up – I am very low at the moment, I woke up this morning and the first thing I thought was, oh no, not this again, another day of this, and lay there and thought that I literally couldnt get out of bed… so then I thought, dont think about anything else, just make a cup of tea. Just think about making a cup of tea, so I got up to make tea and I will drink it and the rest of the day will unfold…

Tea – very british crisis management since 1652!

Silly isnt it but I felt like telling you guys:)

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 3:04am

Kathy – thanks so much for your loving response. Yes, I have been in therapy for many years and, in fact, have an MSW and have done lots of grief therapy and counseling, however, I like to say that we are as one beggar showing the other beggar where the bread is.
blueskies, you are a kick! You made my day with the tea comment – I love Earl Gray, and it can provide a small comfort on an otherwise dreary day. I don’t know where you are on the “journey”, and I don’t recall reading your blogs before, but be encouraged – You are on a path that leads to a good place, and out of the chaos and drama. Your life is being redeemed. You will get to discover who you really are and get in touch with yourself in a way that will be indescribably delightful. I offered up a prayer for you today that you will experience the Peace that passes understanding. You are a precious child of His!!

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 10:18am

Echo Location says:

Oh, I’m so exhausted and confused after all this S/N stuff, but I’ve got my password sorted at last!

Kathleen, I really only wanted to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your posts and even your comments. I am reading and re-reading as I see myself, my childhood and my motivation in all you write. I sit here alone nodding like a loon.

It’s hard to even focus on bad days but when I can concentrate I am getting no end of help from this blog.

Thanks again. x

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 10:52am

sabrina says:

Dear Housie, I posted a mssg. to you on the New Life thread. I hope you see it. I am so mixed up these days, I forget where and when I posted! Love the tea comment- my addiction Is making a latte with my superautomatic espresso machine! Funny, while reading your post, I am drinking my morning latte. Has helped me work out the problems of the world! That and my little chihauhau. Thank God for small treasures!!

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 11:52am

Sabrina – Did get your message on NL. That is where I responded. It can be confusing with all of these different places to share.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 12:20pm

Housie, Yes, I will check new life for any new responses! lol. Thank you.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 12:55pm

I wish I could be here to participate in this thread, but I can’t get my head clear today. I’m still getting over that big oral surgery yesterday. A little pain, but mostly a lot of wooziness. It may be a few days before I’m over it, but then I’ll be back.

Thanks for the kind comments.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 1:06pm

Dear Kathy,

There is one thing I fear more than an S/P/N….and thats the Dentists Chair!!!! (Altho -someone on LF has an ex-P who is a Dentist! Whoa….

Feel better..Extractions are something else…especially as an adult with deep roots…definitly necessary to take some down time and fluids and rest… Take care…feel better soon. ((hugs))

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 1:35pm

See what I wrote about your tireless effort geared towards helping others?

Even when you’re physically ill or in pain. I’m sorry you hurt and you’re woozy, but we most assuredly understand and will wait calmly, patiently for your most excellent return.

Be well and pamper yourself more than a little bit. You deserve it.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 2:14pm

Dear Kathleen- We all hope you feel better soon!Thanks for checking in.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 2:18pm

Hi Kathleen,
We love and miss you, but doesn’t it feel good to do self-care? I had some skin tags removed today for “cosmetic” reasons. Where have we been all of our lives? Enjoy your day and thanks for taking good care of yourself!

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 2:44pm

LTL,

I just read your lovely response to me before I submitted my post to Kathleen.

Aww, thank you so much sweetheart. You know, I am aware that my dealings with men are minute compared to what all the peeps on here are struggling with.

I’ve been down those roads, only nothing as traumatic as what people express on here.

I don’t know how, even when I genuinely cared for some psycho in my past, but I seemed to have reacted with an unconscious self-defense mechanism (don’t have clue whereforto it came from) and began to emotionally and psychologically disengage from an abusive person.

When I literally kicked my x-husband (in my mid 20s) out of my house, I had tears streaming down my face. But they weren’t only tears of frustration, disappointment, disgust…but tears of total and absolute fury. I hated him in that defining moment with a righteous rage that made it incredibly easy to kick him to the curb!

The prevailing thought in my head at the time and other times with predators, psychos, immature losers was…”How DARE he treat me with such disregard?! Who does he think he is..a demi-God?! He’s not chit! He’s not worthy of even washing my lovely, delicate feet!

BE GONE, you useless worthless sprig of a man!!”

Yes, when my temper finally explodes, after holding it in for too long, I tend to lean towards the more dramatic arts. heehee.

I don’t allow myself to brood when an involvement with a dude evaporates. In fact, I lose interest rather quickly in even wanting them to rent space in my head! I don’t allow anyone that I consider dangerous to my well-being and sanity to usurp my joy and happiness for too long.

I am sincerely not writing what I’m writing for my benefit. I am writing it for YOU and all the peeps on LF if they wish to read it.

To say, that YES, it’s OK to be pissed off at these creeps. That it’s OK to believe that they aren’t worthy of washing your beautiful feet. That they aren’t worthy of the care, the attention, the generosity, the love that we repeatedly gave them. They just frikkin aren’t!

I have begun to put into practice what you refer to as..”a healthy selfishness and a healthy seflessness”…

It creates a harmonious balance when the two are working together, right?

But if one side is just a teensy weensy bit heavier than the other side then……SHAZAM!

The black curtain descends, the frantic village people run pell-mell hither, tither and fro in panic and hysteria, fiery comets shoot hurtling to the ground, chaos ensues and rules the day!!…

Well, not really but I think you of all people so understand the concept of creating a healthy balance of give and take.

Like I said, it makes good common sense to me and I will learn it and I will implement it any future intimate invovlvements with the fellas.

Hugss…..xxooxxoo

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 2:59pm

Jane,

Sex…you left out my ps reference to the sex part!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHATS SEX?? )

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 3:53pm

Dear Persephone7,

Yes, I think your GUT IS RIGHT!!!! It usually is if we will listen to it and NOT second-guess it. I can’t exactly remember when I first started to post here on LF but I think I am going on 2 years pretty soon. It has been a roller-coaster ride for sure, but the trail is leading a less undulating course now and generally I am doing very well, with the occasional misstep into a hole, or tripping over a rock on the Road to Healing.

I have come to realize that this is a journey, not a destination, and also that getting over/through the grief process about EACH of our losses with psychopaths isn’t the ONLY thing we need to do.

I realize now after a lifetime of interactions with psychopaths in many roles (father, son, boy friend(s), boss, business associate, neighbor, etc) that there is something about ME that allows them to target me more than once. I will see a RED FLAG, even notice it somewhat, but still I try to “be nice” to people even if they are NOT NICE to me. Even when they mistreat me, I take on the “self blame” for THEIR BAD BEHAVIOR, I take on the shame for their abuse, rather than placing it squarely where it belongs, ON THEM.

Now that I am over the MAJOR psychopaths in my life, done with the grieving for their “loss” I am looking to myself to set boundaries with others who maybe are not psychopaths but are definitely “drama queens or kings” and do not treat me with the respect I deserve. I am eliminating these toxic people as well out of my life. Some I am just “quietly” fading into the background, but with others it is more “in your face” if that is what is needed. The point is, that I am demanding respect and truth from those in my circle. I realize that I will bump up against the psychopath(s) again or others that are dysfunctional, but I do NOT have to interact with them, or to blame myself for their bad behavior and think that if I am just a bit “nicer” they will quit being jerks. NOPE! I respect myself now, and others can respect me or get the heck out of my life!

By staying away from these people (NC) I get less fresh injuries as well. So, as a result of limiting my contact with jerks in general and psychopaths in particular, I AM, NOW GET THIS, NOT MAD ALL THE TIME! That is a NOVEL concept for me! Life is good. There is Joy and Peace and FUN and laughter. What a way to live, wish I had discovered this much sooner! LOL ((((hugs)))) Glad you are here!

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 4:03pm

Tilly says:

Thankyou oxdrover (howd yu get that name ?), your last comment is what I aspire to. I too was born into a pack of psychopathic wolves and have been a magnet for them all my life. I use to think it was “co-dependency” and “al-anon” and “detach with love” type of illness that i had to research. I studied all that for years “ad nauseum”. Next I studied Sam Vakins book on Narcissim until I knew it off by heart.
Still, it wasn’t to stop me from walking into the trap of yet another psychopath (the dentist), even after the solicitor had taken my home, my money and had me legally abused in the extreme! It took me five years to recover from the solictor and I walked straight into the psychopathic dentists arms! OMG…havn’t I hated myself ever since!!
Its only since i have been on this site that i am starting to “get it”. I guess its because it has people who have had to run the gauntlet all their lives, like me and you.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 4:19pm

Well, you see, there’s a thing that the little bitty birds do, that the little bitty bees do….and the boy bird puts his…hmm.

Not being sarcastic with you, just silly. Hope you know that.

I’ve had less than exciting carnal encounters with fellas and a few wowzee zowzee times with fellas.

But the most satisfying, most emotionally, physically, spiritually wonderful love-making I had was with my super x-boyfriend (who is now my dearest and best friend in the world).

He truly and completely loved me as I truly and completely loved him. I still love him and he still loves me even though our romantic relationship ended well over 6 years ago.

We both had our own issues with pain, depression, and unresolved child hood situations so instead of moving closer to each other in our time of need…we became distant.

We both are also immensely stubborn and have formidable wills of iron. Neither one of us would give an inch regarding our own ingrained, obstinate ideas and beliefs.

It took me years to get over him. I was even single and celibate for about 2 years, not even wanting another dude in my life. I surely needed that beneficial solitude, that lack of distraction to work on myself. And to really surrender to the Lord all my cares, worries and burdens that had become too heavy for me to carry.

Ok, I digress and I’m rambling (as usual)…what I’m saying to you, doll, is that sex isn’t really all that great if the 2 people doing it don’t truly love, respect and care for each other. Yeah, it can feel good while you’re doing it but afterwards…not so good. At least for me it isn’t.

And there again, just call me Captain Obvious, ok? Well, duh, right?..haha

When I leave my hermit’s cave with the purpose of meeting and greeting and mingling with folks, I also have an underlying desire to be in the presence of men. I’m a sensualist and it’s not really the sexual contact I’m wanting but the look, the smell and the taste of a man is what attracts me.

Like a bee to honey, they look so good to me that I seek to ravish them! Or like a venus-fly trap—I want to grab one of them and take him away.

I miss the sensation of touching and caressing their skin, of their essence, of their touch and this is when it becomes dangerous for me as I’ve spent too damn long alone in my serene, humble abode contemplating the mysteries of the Universe..haha.

That’s my dilemma regarding fellas. I’m never, ever initially wanting to cultivate a committed relationship or to even jump in the sack with them.

I just want to look and smell and taste….sigh. I wish I could be like one of those crusty, grizzled hermity types who not only doesn’t need physical contact, affection but blusters quite often…”BAH! who needs em?!”

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 4:42pm

One more thing I forgot to say…that yeah, the fellas look good and smell good but then….they inevitably open their mouths.

Talk about a buzzkill! It boggles my mind the crap that spews from their lips. Not all of them, of course, but the ones trying to get my attention (and trying a tad bit too hard, I might add) seem to be the ones that I should immediately distance myself from. And I do with a puzzled, narrow-eyed look on my face.

Yes, they gotta look good, smell good but they must have awesome characters, maturity, sensitivity, intelligence, a wide variety of creative dabblings for me to want to continue to be in their presence.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 4:57pm

You are sooooo freakin hilarious!!!! So glad you had the experience you did with your super x-boyfriend. Better to have loved than not at all…

Ive had my socks knocked off a time or two…and I swear Ive touched the sky on an occassion or two…but I have stayed steadfast and true the past two years to being celibate (sp??) hate that word!!! LOL But I had no choice except to get my act together and focus on myself.

Ditto, on the sensualist comment. In fact I made a comment to a friend of mine the other day about a guy that I was actually attracted to and she wrote back “In love again, eh”…. and I said “NOPE, IM MORE OF A LUSTY GIRL”….and she wrote back THATS SO TRUE!!!! LOL

I miss it when its mutual and good before during and after. I dont miss the really messed up times of sex with Mr. Robotic or Mr. Invisible after…Im just afraid Ill forget or lose my talent (we have talents)!!!! LOL

Hmmm. your dilemma is interesting tho.. I cant relate to that one yet, but then again I have gotten back into saddle YET!!!

Have to ponder what that could be about…

Physical contact and affection is good with a good decent person! I have no doubt you will be doing it a rocking chair one day with a good decent partner!!!!

OMG…I gotta sign off now!!! LOL …Thanks for your post

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 5:02pm

Well, it seems that I’m not going to be in the saddle again myself for a while.

Need a break. Need to learn the balance you discuss. Need to spend more time reading my mountain of books because I neglected them when I was with my former lover. Not intentionally, but….you know how it is.

And…ditto…me signing off on here.

Have a super lovely rest of the day/evening! I so enjoyed chatting with you. It was fun!..haha.

Over & out…

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 6:25pm

Skippy you are welcome. You are right, it is about letting go. It sounds like you are on the healing side of things yourself. You will get better in time. It takes time to work through all of the craziness. Once you do, and you let go there is a sense of peace that comes over you. Then wonderful things begin to happen because you are more open to good things and find peace within. It is the process. Like the youthful song by Miley Cyrus says “The Climb”.
I have a theme song for all of us here on LF- very fitting. Take care! Here’s the lyrics.

By Leona Lewis
Better In Time

(Ooooh)

It’s been the longest winter without you
I didn’t know where to turn to
See somehow I can’t forget you
After all that we’ve been through

Going coming
Thought I heard a knock
Who’s there no one
Thinking that I deserve it
Now I realize that I really didn’t know
If you didn’t notice you mean everything
Quickly I’m learning to love again
All that I know is I’mma be ok

[Chorus:]
Thought I couldn’t live without you
It’s gonna hurt when it heals too
It’ll all get better in time
Even though I really love you
I’m gonna smile cause I deserve to
It’ll all get better in time

I couldn’t turn on the TV
Without something there to remind me
Was it all that easy
To just put aside your feelings

If I’m dreaming don’t wanna laugh
Hurt my feelings but that’s the path
I’ll believe in
And I know time will heal it
If you didn’t notice boy you mean everything
Quickly I’m learning to love again
All I know is I’mma be ok

Since there’s no more you and me
It’s time I let you go
So I can be free
And live my life how it should be
No matter how hard it is I’ll be fine without you
Yes I will

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 7:40pm

Kathleen Hope you feel better soon. Take care! ((((gentle hugs)))))

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 7:43pm

kathleen pls do spoil yourself and take it easy terri

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 10:04pm

Kathleen…Have you ever read The Emotional Rape Syndrome…Just wondering. I think it does such a beautiful job of not blaming the victim, and empowering the victim. And says why that is so very important to healing. (not blaming yourself.) He discusses recovery instead of healing and I like that VERY MUCH.

Maybe recovery and spiritual growth are two different things. I’m not perfect but at almost 60, a very active and physical 60, I’m very content in my skin….after quite a recovery period from the emotional rapist who also sexually assaulted me once… and love to call evil EVIL and stop staring at my belly button.

You know what I mean? I guess I need to change my name to prettymuchrecovered instead of justabouthealed. LOL!!!

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 11:52pm

I should have said “And says why that is so very important to RECOVERY”. Because that is the term used in the book.

Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 11:53pm

I can’t wait to get back on top financially so I can buy all these awesome books!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 2:55am

Thanks so much for the kind words and amazing song. That songwriter sure knows, doesn’t she? Wow. Really beautifully written and so very hopeful. Thanks.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 8:30am

After my “recovery” I began to heal. In healing I was able to release the idea or ideal of “blame” on either of us. In fact, it didnt matter to me whose fault it was in my healing journey…what mattered to me after recovery was to heal in such a way that I could never be put in a position to “Blame” anyone (others or myself) for the lose of my self-everything and my life direction.

If I was armed with the tools, with the self-discovery I have made now (NOT FROM SELF BLAME) but from SELF-AWARENESS…what I am made of, what I deserve, what I WILL NOT ACCEPT FROM ANOTHER, insofar as protecting myself to the best of my ability (if I was god forbid raped, or drugged or a random victim of a heinous crime – then of course no amount of self-awareness/protection can keep me safe from that kind of unknown)…but in terms of getting involved with an emotionally abusive or physically abusive relationship I have the tools now to know to stop. change direction at the first red flag. Its an awareness of how much I really can be should be and need to be in control of my self-worth/self-value. Its recognizing when someone is bad/has evil ways/doesnt have my best interest in mind. And knowing is not blame or shame that will get me through and away — its choice — to respect myself and trust myself that I know what is healthy for me and what is not in terms of relations with anyone.

First its recovery. And then its healing. So that you grow and learn more about yourself and others…and most importantly how to protect yourself and make sure you dont find yourself in a position of having to blame, (unless of course its a random act of violence etc.. then there is clearly nothing you could do) but rather making good healthy strong confident choices that lead you in the right direction. Prior to my experience I saw red flags, but I never acted on them. Ive since LearnED, through both recovery and healing, that acting on red flags protect you and never allow you to be emotionally of physically abused in a partnership again.

The responsiblity of protecting ourselves falls on ourselves. Not another. Its about choices, once the “jig is up” – and about looking within to find all the self-everything you have and need to live strong. Thats my story and Im sticking to it

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 8:33am

Tilly, go to Amazon. Most of the books are available used for very little money.

justabouthealed, thank you for that wonderful song. I don’t know Miley’s Cyrus’ music, but I try to find a place to listen to the song later.

I understand your concern with blaming the victim. Which is one of the reasons that this article really speaks about a part of the process that is beyond anger. Blaming is a facet of anger. Though it might not seem immediately apparent, anger and shame are related. (Easier to understand if you think about punishment. Shame = self-punishment. And that is related to the inward-turning anger of depression.)

With all that said, a big part of our goal in recovery is emotional freedom. Which is something beyond being blameless, which still assigns power to whatever is the source of the blaming we feel. Emotion freedom is the cornerstone of the emotional self-sufficiency I talk about. We are our own authority.

The process of grieving and letting go is very profound. Like anger, it’s another one of those topics that could take a whole book. But in a nutshell, it’s giving up. Giving up incorporates a lot of things. Our hubris about our ability to control what is clearly out of our control. Our idea that we can keep so many balls in the air in order to protect ourselves. Our attachment to one particular thing or outcome. Our idea that our identities are attached to some concept or outcome.

Not all of this happens or is perceived with every event of grieving and letting go. But each time we do it, we learn several things. One is how to do it. Another is that we can let go of something we thought was part of our identity and still be whole. Another is that the result is actually more freedom and more ability to think, feel and act. We gradually discover that needs and attachments are illusions. Incrementally, we wake up.

Forgive me for making an example of your very valid concern, but you raised it, so I’m going to take advantage of it. Fear of being blamed is one of these illusory needs/attachments. It’s very real while we’re still concerned about whether we belong in this world or whether we will be welcomed. The fact that so many of us suffer with this fear is evidence of the failure of our spiritual upbringings.

This is a key element of identity that many of us did not gain in our childhood. On one hand we are taught that all people are equal and that all God’s children are loved. One the other hand, the evidence of our lives in dysfunctional families or a culture that values winning, power and wealth above human dignity tells us something very different. Love, including self-love, is contingent on a host of rules that are cruel, contradictory and skewed to serve the needs of the powerful at the cost of the needs of the less powerful.

I realize that sounds very political. But in fact, it is another way of describing our upbringings in the households of people who are also victims of these rules. And they are passed down to us through their suffering.

As a result, we develop our coping mechanisms. Depending how much suffering there is in our homes, our rules are more or less rigid inside of ourselves. Depending on when we have to start dealing with that suffering, we develop certain types of coping mechanisms. But in this group, it is not hard to see that, in personal relationships, we have been trained and trained ourselves to give up a great deal of our dignity and integrity in order to find the safety and security that we interpret as love.

I realize there is a lot of area for debate there, but that’s my perspective. It could come from my particular background, but what I see here confirms that there are many people like me in this group.

So to get back to grieving and letting go, we face the very difficult task of undoing this training. Another one of the illusory concepts (in my mind) is that people can be broken permanently. That may be so in certain extreme circumstances, but one of my role models in getting better was the knowledge that many people who are crippled, or lose their sight or hearing, find their way through these losses to become content with themselves and productive in their lives. I knew that it was possible to grieve and let go so effectively that we renew ourselves and discover that our true potential was not in our circumstances, but in the way we see them and take advantage of them.

So back to blame and shame. At some point in my healing, I decided to address these monsters. Beyond all the usual crap that went on in my family with a rageaholic father and a depressed shamed mother, I had the incest to deal with and the certainty that I would be forever branded as ruined in “polite society.” With the amount of energy I spent hiding who I was and manufacturing an acceptable front, I could have conquered several small nations in my spare time after writing a couple of books a year. Of course, I couldn’t do any of that, because I was constantly in battle with myself and constantly uncertain of what was okay and not okay.

So I did what I was most afraid of. I start to speak the truth. Knowing that I was emotional damaged, I let it show and linked it to its causes as best I could. I was still healing, and not as clear about cause and effect as I am today. But I knew what made me feel bad. I knew what confused me. I did, essentially, what we are doing here on LoveFraud, but I did it more publicly. I read the poems I was writing in open mike performances. I wrote about my life and my healing process on LiveJournal. I told people what I believed about my life in social meetings.

And I got back a lot of what I was afraid of. Pity. People backing away from me, because I was just too much work. Other people who took it personally, because they had their own secrets and they regarded me as a threat. But to a surprising degree, I found that other people related. Not the majority, but more than I expected. I found that my talking about myself enabled other people to talk about themselves, and together we added to each other’s perspectives, wisdom and growing power to free ourselves.

And in all this, I came to understand something that had floated through my mind occasionally, but had never really taken root before. That is, that my story is real. It is my life. And it’s not weird or unusual. It just a life, like many others. And what is interesting about it, if anything, is what I did with it, and am doing with it.

The other thing I came to realize in all of this is that the circumstances of my life are not me. There is something else, some deeper “me,” that has never been touched or changed by any of this. And all the trouble I’m working through is just a lot of rules that came from outside myself in battle with a lot of circumstances outside myself. Head-on collisions of expectations with reality. And none of it was more real that the untouched me deep inside me.

I realize that all this sounds very ethereal. And I’m going to write more in future articles about coming home to ourselves. But I’m going to wind this up now with saying that blame and shame are something we agree to. They are part of giving up ourselves to outside authorities. And that we do, ultimately, have the capacity to take our power back.

We have nothing to be ashamed of. We have done the best we can all the way along. That is the real truth of our lives.

(LTL, I just read your excellent post that you finished before I finished this one. But I’ll go ahead and post this one anyone as a postscript to yours.)

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 9:09am

Kathy.. I think Im LEARNING!! Oh my gosh,…Im truly learnING to be AND live free! THANK YOU FOR BEING A PART OF MY JOURNEY…. I cant WAIT to give your book to my children…xoxo

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 9:19am

Thanks, LTL, I’m so glad this makes sense to you. I love your writing on self-care. Especially that you’re not writing out of anger now, but out of healthy commitment to yourself.

There is some great writing in the area of codependency, which I read a long time ago, so I can’t remember the exact words. But there was something about not being to give what you don’t have. Like airlines tell us to put our own oxygen masks on first, we have to take care of ourselves first in order to build up enough interior resources to share.

So selfishness is a good thing.

I can remember my father’s bitterness and scorn at the contributions of wealthy people to churches, libraries and museums. His people came from some borderline of poverty and working class, and they quite right felt exploited. And it is perhaps my own good fortune in having learned to make a better living that gives me the freedom to think like I do. Poverty and the fear that goes with it is a grating thing that constricts our spiritual and emotional life.

At the same time, it doesn’t have to. Compassion, tolerance, acceptance, sharing of resources can be found in all kinds of cultures that are happier than ours. Even though they live with a lot less. There’s a really good article in the New York Times right now about living in the Netherlands, which is not exactly a third-world country, but at the same time, their community values are so different from ours. And their children are so much happier.

I’m rambling here, off topic. But I think that when we get back to who we really are, we discover that we’re better people than we ever imagined. That our values are really good. Fear is the corrosive thing, not freedom.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 10:59am

This is my last post on this topic, I swear!

Recovery doesn’t have to be followed by healing or growth. Sometimes all that is needed is learning self-defense tactics and getting busy with positive activity that you love. AA says “Get busy, get better”.

And recognizing that no matter what awful things happened in your past (mine includes a childhood rape and an attempted murder by bombing and me being covered in bricks from the explosion, a loaded gun held to my head while I was pinned down by an angry group, multiple attempted rapes…all of which were not as bad as the emotional rape), those experiences have given you unique strengths today. Including incredible sensitivity, empathy, ability to compartmentalize….You know, there are times and places where those traits are useful! Like in doing film editing of disturbing scenes, like in being a nurse or doctor, etc etc etc. Autism can even be a unique strength. Look at Temple Grandin. Viva la difference, as long as you are not evil!

We don’t all have to change or heal. We can be who we are and take advantage of our unique strengths and celebrate them. AND learn self-defense to keep evil from taking advantage of us again.

My brother was hit by a car. He approaches crossing a street a lot differently now than before he was hit. But he was in the cross walk at the time, with the light. But he takes even more precautions now and did not spend a lot of time in therapy figuring out why he wasn’t more like that in the past, what led him to take his safety for granted, why he ignored the red flags of cars in the street, whether or not his mom had held his hand crossing the street etc, etc etc etc.

Kathleen, I’ve loved all your writing. But if you haven’t read Emotional Rape, I hope you do.

I guess I’m saying that what I think helps the most is simply MINIMIZING what happened…this guy effected 7% of my life, it is over, and how I acted then does not define me anymore than how I would act if my house were burning down defines how I normally am. Out of control situations bring forth extreme reactions…..I wrote down my list of self-defense rules that will make it pretty darn impossible for this situation to happen again….I figured out what makes me feel alive and wonderful, and I’m doing it.

It seems to me that every therapist helped me by making me feel GOOD about myself. Not making me feel like some part was broken, or I was like an addict. I can apply those analogies and say “right on”. But why?

I’ll never forget this really happy woman I met who said she tried therapy once but gave it up. And I asked why. And she said: ” All that talk about myself was boring!”

Can too much self-absorption actually impede spiritual growth? Interesting question.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 11:22am

Justabouthealed…

I agree with you …in that what works for you is all that matters!

For me I didnt have things happen to me that were in essence “out of my control” ie. A car hitting me, a rape, a bomb…and Im so sorry to hear all that you had to endure (and your brother too)… well, I was run over by a bicyclist when I was little standing in a group of people and I did not hear him say Coming through, watch out… and I never ended up in fetal position nearly wanting to end my life because of it… and with the bike accident I sort of did what you mention…minimized what happend, got over it, didnt contemplate it much..and got on with my life.

But with my Emotional Rape – I absolutely could have been in better control of so many things. I, by personal choice, absolutely take 50% of the responsibility (GUILT FREE BTW) for not having the tools and/or SELF-AWARENESS of what another person is capable of doing with someone who has limited or no self-respect, self-trust, self- worth. Could that all be another word for Self-Defense?? I guess so, but more for me it was SELF-AWARENESS which includes self-defense. You see I wanted to go deeper to enable myself not to ever put myself in the position again to ever have to use self-defense with a person who lives their life emotional raping others. In order to do that – I had to get to know myself. If I minimized what happened — I would recover and go on and get into another relationship and be giving and loving and caring to someone who may choose to use and abuse me.

Self absorption? For me its Self-freedom…and my spiritual growth has flown off the charts with my finding and creating who I am and who I want to be — whereas before I was searching for someone to love me and I was willing to endure whatever it took to remain with the man I loved.

Ive gotten busy, Ive gotten better. Ive gotten to know myself and how to protect myself, defend myself, trust myself and turn away from unhealthy people and situations in my life. When I was with him, I didnt know any better, let alone know myself…I just knew I wanted to be loved and I wanted to believe anything that came out of his mouth.

You said and I wholeheartedly agree..

“We dont all have to change or heal. We can be who we are and take advantage of our unique strengths and celebrate them. And learn self-defense to keep evil from taking advantage of us again.”

But I would add We can also recognize our weaknesses, our history of both circumstance and choice, without fear and trepidation — and gain an infinite amount of strength, wisdom and spiritual growth.. if we so choose to do so.

Thank you for your views Justabouthealed. I think self-defense is something akin to what I call self-respect, self-trust and self-love.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 11:50am

Joy says:

Have not had a chance to read the comments yet. The article was awesome and timely as always. Wanted to share an event from yesterday. I walked into a store and slam into the ex. The sound and sight of him left me shaking so badly that I could hardly pay for my purchase. Heart racing and shaking uncontrollable. Totally did not expect this reaction. This was the most violent physical reaction to his presence that I have ever felt. What is this about? Why now? When will he stop having this power to traumatize me? He did not speak to me and walked away and still such an overwhelming physical reaction to his presence. Does my body now recognize him as far more dangerous than my heart ever could? Thoughts please.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 12:12pm

Dear Joy,

Shock? Maybe you and your system had a shock response…Even seeing an x of mine that was a healthy person, still made have a funny kind of feeling (awkwardish, unexpected)…

I imagine with an toxic -x our beings get stirred up a bit with all the trauma and turmoil and craziness we went through. This was probably about your reaction to the unexpected, the fight of flight response to the fear and mixed emotions that his being represents to you in general.

So out of sight, you are able to deal with it so much better. In his presence it all resurfaces again. And then to be ignored just compounds it all.

Sorry that happened to you. You havent shared if you had an emotional response or not as well? Im curious how you got through the rest of your day?

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 12:27pm

ps Justabouthealed…

I was selfless prior to my recovery and healing journey…I was so far removed from self-anything that I was a blob of self-nothing except selfless to the point that I didnt have an awareness of what I deserved, and what was right or wrong in a relationship involving “love and commitment”..

HE was selfish and self-absorbed in an unhealthy way…to the extreme…totally limiting his spiritual growth and growth in life in general. Stagnantly self absorbed!!

Now I am a healthier selfish person and a healthier selfless person because I am self-aware. Self-absorbed means when it always only about you, yourself. And I suppose here at LF as we are learning and growing and recovering and healing (or I atleast) am sharing my journey about self much more than I ever would in any other setting… but Im sharing it in a healthy way…about how its changed my life for the better to really know myself and have boundaries for first time in my life and learn and know self-respect, self-love, self-value, self-trust and when i leave here I get to know others who are on that same path and I give and care and share in a whole different way now….one thats respected and reciprocated and one where I respect and continue to reciprocate too. A balance. I was missing that balance of self-awareness!!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 12:38pm

Ok, different topic, so I will post.

Joy, I think you nailed it when you said “Does my body now recognize him as far more dangerous than my heart ever could?” YES!

To me, I think that is your sub-conscience reaching out grabbing your conscience attention! And I think our sub-conscience takes into account all kinds of things that we are not consciously aware of. That’s what lets us “suddenly wake up” as we are driving along and notice a child about to step into the road. Or pick up that someone is having a bad day, though we aren’t sure what is making us ask “Are you okay?”

And some of us have a very strong body/mind link. There memories I can pull up that make me almost faint with fright. Great actors have that ability too…..Certain memories can help them experience and express true terror, even on a perfectly safe shooting lot with cameras all around,etc.

Pain warns of us danger. Good for you! I think it is a wonderful sign! No way is your body going to let you have anything to do with that monster!! Hurray!!!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 1:08pm

Kathleen…So much gratitude for your wisdom. I can relate to your writing today re: finding myself. I am totally finished with S and even most days past the anger. I am not willing to donate any more of my time to analyze why he is the way he is, etc. Frankly, I don’t care. But where I AM at is at a place of self-discovery. I met him when I was only 19 and am now 62. I feel completely detached from myself. I experience a lot of “floating” feelings – like I’m not here. I hear the words coming out of my mouth and I see the journaling, etc., but I am disconnected from myself. I have been for years, maybe even before I met . I come from a horrendous childhood, and was running from it into the arms of the S – (a not so unique story from others on here). I’m sure that under the S fog, which has just been cleared, is another layer of trauma that, although in therapy for years, couldn’t be reached. It feels like dissociation, and some of it is called floating, a term I learned in Wellspring when I left a cult I was involved in w/the S for 16 years in 1987. The exciting part is that when I got tx. for recovery from cult issues, I was not only out of the cult, but the cult was out of me. Now I am not only out of the cult of the S, but the cult of s is out of me.
Thanks to all of you who make my journey a lot easier.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 1:41pm

OOPS! Missed an S in 7th line – also a LITTLE OCD too!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 1:43pm

justabouthealed, thanks for your post and for questioning.
No, of course, you don’t have to use recovery as a personal growth experience. I am doing this, because I saw the correlation between the pain created by this relationship and a lot of garbage I’ve been living with all my life. I wanted to change.
My initial reaction was “never again” and then to figure out all the new rules to enforce that. Which is very good stuff. Learning by experience. Definitely part of life — not keep shaking hands with the hot stove. So I did a lot of early research on sociopaths and narcissists, and viewed them as the problem, and made efforts to adjust my behaviors and expectations to accommodate the possibility of another showing up.
In this I totally agree with the posts that talk about gut instincts. I’ll be writing later about taking care of ourselves, and what techniques are meaningful for me. Some of them are extensions on self-defense training I’ve done in the past. Others are a lot more intuitive.
The thing is, I didn’t trust myself to enforce these defensive rules. There was something in me that responded powerfully to this guy. I had rules before, and my attraction to him overrode them all. Until I fixed that, I wasn’t safe. This was extremely clear to me, and it left me with no other option that to start excavating my own interior to figure out what was going on. And that turned into the great adventure that I write about here.
No one has to do this entire journey. And many people don’t. Denial and anger are two of the common places to stop, and they both have their attractions. They are extremely functional in many ways. People in denial tend to be great helpers of the world, sorting out other people’s lives. People in anger tend to be great warriors, disciplined fighters of the “dark side” or empire builders. Behaviors that anesthetize or distract from painful internal dissonance can be an excellent tools for living and achieving, as long as they don’t become expensive addictions.
I’m just really ambitious. I want to be clear. I don’t want to be carrying around historical baggage that limits my perceptions and emotions. I also absolutely refuse to be the loser in anything. If it appears I’ve lost, I’m going to keep bulldogging it until I get a profit out of it. Sometimes that takes a lot of work, as it did in this situation, but to me, the work has been worth it. I have a new definition of happiness that isn’t dependent on outside circumstances. And though I can’t say that I’m fully conscious all the time, I know what it means now and I see the benefit to clearing obstacles as they arise.
If this series is beginning to lose value for you, I imagine you’re not alone. One of the reasons I had so much difficulty writing this article was that I knew I was going to start having some significant fall-out, beginning with the last one on grieving and letting go and increasing with this extension of that topic. Grieving and letting go is a pivotal stage, where people’s perspectives really change, but it requires overcoming a lot of resistance to feeling sadness. I think we’re culturally programmed to regard sadness as weakness. It’s worth it to some people to break through that, and not to other people.
And as you say, some people might find it self-indulgent to pay that much attention to our own psyches. They might even find it dysfunctional. I can’t disagree. Paying this much attention to the internal landscape requires us to disengage a bit from external life, either taking a vacation from it to sort things out or doing some daily discipline like meditation. It’s an investment that only makes sense if you’re on some kind of path.
Beyond that, the process of becoming emotionally self-sufficient may have other dysfunctionalities in terms of consensus reality. Become more involved with our own reality may cause us to feel less cooperative with some cultural structures based on external authority. Over time, I think, we actually learn to navigate these structures more effectively, but things can be a little rocky when we’re in transition and trying to figure out who we are now.
We may feel a little messy, ungrounded. It’s a kind of second adolescence, and that may not be attractive, especially if we’re heavily invested in maintaining a rigid structure inside of ourselves. (Oh hell, we’ve all got rigid structures inside of ourselves, and they fight back when we take a pickax to the foundations.)
So maybe you feel self-sufficient enough. Maybe you sorted that out a long time ago in the cauldron of a lot of violence and threats to your survival and sanity. Maybe you see the causes and effects of everything around you as much as you want to. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people feel the same way. and if they done and back out in the world feeling confident and able to love and trust again, I applaud them. It just didn’t work that way for me.
I’m just one person, talking about what I think. The only authority I have is based on whatever benefit people get from my writing. People get something out of it or they don’t. To the extent they do, I’m grateful to be understood.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 2:26pm

Good afternoon, peeps…

I read what you write, trying steadfastedly to completely understand, comprehend your powerful, enlightened thoughts, ideas, concepts in my own solid effort to become a better person, to hopefully become a little more evolved.

But I confess…I don’t think I’ll ever reach the “state of Zen” you’re striving towards…haha.

I purchased and read a gorgeous book called…”Peace is every step: The path of mindfulness in everday life”…written by Master Zen Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh.

Oh, I LOVE this book! I was energized and inspired by his every word. I can relate to his fundamental idea/philosophy of not only truly living in the moment, but embracing, nurturing, celebrating those precious, lovely minutes with glee and joy.

Here I was, thoroughly enjoying this lovely book when I came upon the section on transforming our negative emotions into positive healing emotions.

My smile became a worried frown as I was reading and I glumly thought…”I’m never going to reach that sublime awesome state of being he declares is possible! I just started to allow myself to recognize and validate my righteous anger, my sadness. How am I ever going to be able to transform, transmute these into positive emotions?!”…haha.

I think I’m getting there, inch by inch, baby step by baby step. In my own spiritual way. In my own delighted spiritual journey.

I love reading Buddhist philosphy/learnings and I most certainly include them with my Gospel readings, my spiritual Christianity.

After all, aren’t we all going in the same direction? But, yes, I am devoted to the Lord, as my Savior and Messiah and that belief is unshakable.

He saved my life in a thousand different ways and I am humbly, ecstastically grateful forever.

Peace, Joy and Love for all….

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 2:51pm

LearntheLesson,

You wrote…”I’ll never forget this really happy woman I met who said she tried therapy once but gave it up. And I asked why. And she said: ” All that talk about myself was boring!”

Oh my….I can SO relate. I’ve never been in traditional therapy for that exact reason. There are others, of course, like I’m private and don’t feel all that comfortable “giving it up” to a strange person sitting right in front of me and seemingly scrutinizing my words and body language.

Also that added vulnerability gives me the heebee jeebees!

But on LF, after reading and commenting for over a year, I considered myself in a safe, loving environment.

I realized that anything I wrote about on here would not be thrown cruelly back in my face. That it would not be used as ammunition to attack my decent character. That I would receive comfort, respect, encouragement and support whether I was seeking it or not.

And I don’t think I was when I spilled my guts. I truly wanted to confront that hindering fear of expressing the reality that I’m at times a vulnerable, fragile human woman. That I’m not super-gal able to leap pebbles in a single bound.

That yeah, I hurt sometimes and by me confessing that hurt to the phenomenal peeps on LF I have gained more insight, more strength that was formerly unavailable to me.

I’m a blessed gal. I know this. I have a gazillion things to be grateful for and I do feel eternally grateful for them.

But I had more than one purpose (confronting a fear) in sharing with LF. I genuinely wished to let others know that not one single person on this planet, if they are emotionally, psychologically, intellectually complex, conscience driven folks breezes through life without a care in the world.

That we ALL agonize over experiences. That we all strive to do the right thing, to be good and true to not only ourselves but to everyone.

Except for the evil ones, the creatures of doom. We should immediately leave their presence, but with our heads high, our backs straight and strong, and our integrity, our individual unique, awesome identities firmly intact.

We are all connected to each other, connected to the Universe in a myriad of ways and these soulless predators seem to think (or not) that they are exempt from the consequences of their diabolical actions.

They are not and whether they ever become aware of this cosmic truth is irrelevant. They will face the consequences some how, some way, in time.

With love,
Miss Captain Obvious

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 3:49pm

Kathleen —well, let me own my feelings. My guard is up sky high against ANYONE who makes me feel at a gut level (right or wrong) that they they are taking a morally or spiritually superior tone, or simply feel they have SO much to share with the rest of us smucks, implying others are stuck at an earlier stage, whatever, can’t hack a pivotal stage and they are so wise that they predicted that weakness in the rest of us, etc. I no longer make excuses, my gut tells me to leave I do.

I wish you well. Your previous writings were an enormous help to me. Honestly. Sometimes I was sure we were twins with the same guy. LOL! Like many on here feel.

If I’m too stuck at a stage, not ambitious enough, whatever, so be it, I’m not feeling good about this so simply walking away. Perhaps unfairly, I anticipate that you will now explain what is wrong with me, what is making me feel this way, what stage I’m at that you are WAY past, salute me for it, but I got enough of that from my N to last a life time.

Logging off for a good long time. Not a hit and run. Just taking care of me, while owning my true feelings. I tried to not say it “meanly” but hard in this format to be honest and not sound harsh. I’m not saying you are an exploiter. I am saying *I* walk away when I start feeling talked down to by anyone. Never again. One of my rules. Took at $20K pay cut to get out from a bad work situation, but I have a Board of Directors who respects me and I respect them and we all know we all have strengths and weaknesses and pass tasks around accordingly and it feels WONDERFUL!!!

Best of luck to everyone!! We are all surviving and moving on in our unique ways. It is hard to help others without sounding condescending, but it a task worth undertaking and thank you all for the help you have given me, including Kathleen. STill one of my favorite writers on lfraud and I hope the feedback ultimately proves useful in making your book as powerful as I hope it will be!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 3:54pm

Sweet Jane,

I wish I could take credit for the above comment…but Justabouthealed wrote that comment about the woman who said “All that talk about myself quite boring” LOL

Ive actually been to therapy twice in my life for two bouts of panic attacks. She wanted to go back into my childhood…and I either couldnt or wouldnt…I wasnt up for the challenge or talking about myself there!!

But here and now in this moment, especially at LF, I am so comfortable sharing my journey and my setbacks and accomplishments…and even my past as it all makes up who I was, who I am and who Im becoming!

Its good for it to be about me for a change…for a stage/phase in my life… in a healthy way — learning from experience with a really bad toxic person, how my choices based upon who I was at that point in my life…allowed me to spiral out of control ..and nearly lose myself by the end.

xoxo, Learn

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:00pm

Dear Justabouthealed,

I just read your post to Kathleen. And I reread your firsts post …you make a very important statement….

“this guy effected 7% of my life, it is over”

Thats a completely different experience I had with my guy. He affected 99% of my life or he had an impact or affect of 99% of my life…. So the difference is HUGE! Esp. recoverytime! If he only affected 7% of my life (like other boyfriends have) I would have got busy, gone on and minimized it.

Also, I think there is some misunderstanding about this issue of “placing guilt on the victim” — I, as a “victim” although I hesitate to use that word I rather say “recipient of emotional abuse” harbor no guilt when I say I didnt have the life tools to deal with a selfish, toxic, disordered emotionally abusive person. I actually say it with enlightenment.

The Emotional Rape author discusses recovery instead of healing. Some people just need to recover and some people need to do both recover from the event and heal from within because for some the effect that the relationship with that kind of dude left on them -has much deeper connection to their being – thus the higher percentage difference.

We are all different people. We share lifes challenging journey on so many different scales, in so many different ways, and at varying stages of the journey. The beauty of LF is to take what you want from some, disagree wholeheardly with others, and be open to so many different views and opinions. Always taking what you can, and leaving behind what has absolutely no use or meaning to you in your life/journey.

I hope you reconsider visiting and sharing. Your posts and insights and views are respected by so many.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:22pm

Oh, JaneSmith, ouch. I feel terrible that you feel this so deeply, worse that you are leaving because of it.

I’m just me. You can ignore me. I have a model I work with. That is how I see things. But it is just me.

There is nothing wrong with being where you are, wherever it is. Every single place on the path (as I envision it) has a reason, has learning potential, and creates opportunities for positive action. I’ve tried to say that in every way I can.

Each step along the way, I’ve written from the voice of that state as much as I can. I’m writing from the voice of this state now. Maybe this is not part of your experience. When I say that, I’m not talking down to you. I’m talking from where I am. If anything, I’m looking for understanding.

I would really like to finish this series. But not if it drives anyone away. That’s not consistent with the philosophy of LoveFraud.

Please reconsider and just let me be where I am. If I sounded arrogant, I truly didn’t mean to. One of the reasons the spacing is messed up on that post is that I went back to edit it to try to clear up anything that could sound that way. I was afraid it might have that effect. I guess I didn’t do a good enough job.

I am not any sort of authority in your life. You are. You know what’s right for you. I trust that. If you got any other meaning from my post, I truly apologize. It was not what I meant to communicate.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:23pm

Oh, sorry, that was to justabouthealed, not JaneSmith.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:24pm

This one is for JaneSmith. I was working on it when I read JAH’s post and hoped to catch her before she disappeared.

I wanted to laugh about your comments about never getting to the Zen ideal. Me neither. But I’m working on it, not because I’m a dedicated Buddhist (I’m not), but because I’m really interested in getting more functional as a human being.

You know, we’re all on the path. Aware of it, or not. But the great opportunity provided by huge pain is a kind of transformative shortcut. Have you every been in any environment where people are growing so consciously and so determinedly as on LoveFraud? I haven’t.

And perhaps, I wrote this article too soon. I don’t mean to intimidate anyone. A lot of us are doing what I described here. I’m just trying to describe it . And we don’t have to go any faster — in fact, we can’t go any faster — than we go.

After my relationship with the sociopath, I was so fed up with myself. And that relationship gave me some really strong clues about what I needed to work on. The behaviors that weren’t working and the reasons for them.

But I had to overcome a lot of things to get well. Not least of them were a lot of beliefs about how I was allowed to feel and who I was allowed to be. And ultimately, trying to change some relatively superficial stuff opened up a lot more substantial stuff from my family history.

I can write about it now as though it was something I just did, knowing what I was doing. But at the time, it wasn’t like that. Opening up these boxes can be very cool and exhilarating. Or it can be scary. There are fears we’ve been sitting on our whole lives, interpreting them though various feelings and coping mechanisms long beyond remembering them.

In my case, I took a break from my do-it-myself approach and spent a year working with a therapist who specialized in childhood sexual abuse. When my search for “why” hit that incest layer, it felt like standing under a huge, malevolent, black wave that was going to engulf me. I knew I couldn’t do this part by myself. And I was right. Opening that box released a lot of emotion. I mean, I was one angry girl and, if I hadn’t had a therapist to reassure me that this was a normal response and suggest that I not do anything too radical until I’d mastered my feelings, I’m not sure what I might have done.

So, especially for those of us with seriously violent or abusive backgrounds, some professional help might be a good idea. At the same time, our healing path is greatly shaped by what we want to get out of it. If we’re aiming at clarity and peace, or something like that, like the ability to love and trust again, that’s going to affect our direction and also where we decide to rest. I was in anger for years, but I couldn’t stay there, because I was completely out of touch with my spirituality and I felt too much hate that kept boomeranging on me. I had to keep moving.

There’s nothing special about my journey, except that I am trying to share it through writing about it. People have been gaining wisdom and self-awareness from personal tragedy for a long time. And what I did is a mishmash of a lot of techniques that I picked up from reading and talking to people, nothing new.

So back to you. The fact that you are recognizing and validating your sadness and your righteous anger is huge. The core of everything is making peace with ourselves. That includes accepting ourselves, caring for ourselves and learning to love ourselves. It doesn’t happen overnight. Each step opens our lives and our hearts, but it’s all baby steps on a spiritual journey that takes a lifetime.

I know so much more today than I did when I started. That doesn’t mean that I am what I know. Knowing is only the beginning. Then we have to wait for it to connect with our emotional system. Beyond that, we have to try to live in new ways that reflect what we know now. That involves experimenting with new ways to be, and seeing how it comes out in the context of reality.

I’m still learning how to deal with my mess. (I have too much stuff and huge resistance to housekeeping.) I’m still learning how to talk and do relationships, beyond work ones which I’m pretty good at. I’m still learning how to deal with feelings of inadequacy, frustration and shame.

But I’m learning from a new place, that keeps getting renewed by every new thing I learn. I’m on a major learning curve and I hope I just live long enough to finish some of the self-developments that are “in transit” right now. Because it’s really getting to be fun. And because it’s really changing the way I relate to everything, as well as what I’m getting back from the world.

So, bottom line, don’t worry about where you are. Where you are is perfect. We can’t help but grow. It’s built into us. We can speed it along, if we want, by paying attention to it. That helps us make more conscious choices, perhaps. But if we’re not so conscious, the world will still send us learning experiences. And the really painful ones, like these relationships, are the ones that turn out to be the really big gifts if we use them.

One final thing that I should mention. I don’t know how old anyone is here. But there are several times in our lives when this kind of huge learning is more natural. One of those times is in our early-to-mid twenties (which is the tail end of the big learning spurt of our childhood years). And then a period which begins in our late forties or so, and goes on until we start to lose our mental strength.

I suspect our genes get us more involved in child-rearing and career-building in our thirties and forties. So it’s not that we can’t learn in those late-early adult years, but we’re not so inclined to focus on this sort of personal growth. We’ve got other fish to fry.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:40pm

Ok, the dork mobile that is JaneSmith has meandered off the street and merrily galloped into that peaceful, lovely garden outraging the folks gathered there…haha.

So very sorry, Justabouthealed. You’re the one who wrote that neato comment.

I always seek to give credit where credit is due and my brain must have done a swan-dive into the shallow end of the pool.

My bad….

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:56pm

Please dont second guess yourself. You didnt write this article too soon. Remember we talked about your fear of how it would be received…over the top praise or general feedback/suggestions (like JAH offered) or rock bottom criticism …. take from all of it what you are inclined to do so in your healthiest way – not personally!

Justabouthealed,

I think its as simple as you chose a different view and path and recovery journey than Kathleen Hawks writings and experience and views at this stage. We all have the self-awareness to choose what works for us, what we relate to and what we simply dont relate to. Take from all of it what you are inclined to do so in your healthiest way – not personally!

I like to think we are all taking care of ourselves and doing our own work, but that we are there for eachother to bounce things off and toss around and share our life stories..journies. Thank you both!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 4:59pm

Dork mobile Smith/Miss Captain Obvious,

You were just thinking of me talking about myself to much!!!! So thats why you inadvertantly addressed it to me, didnt you!!!! xoxo

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 5:01pm

I used to want to kill the psychopath alcoholic dentist but now i realise he is in much more pain being left alive

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 5:27pm

Captain Obvious, is that you or me?

Do you ever have a little voice in your head saying, “You know better.” But it won’t tell you better than what? It will come to me, I know.

Meanwhile, I have to go take an antibiotic and a painkiller.

You’re supposed to talk about yourself. I love it when you talk about yourself.

Now, I have to go have a chat with myself.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 5:45pm

Ok…time for some humor….

So Jane wrote to me but it was meant for JAH and Jane signed off as Captain Obvious….

then I think you wrote to Jane but it was meant for JAH….and

then Jane wrote back to JAH as Dork Mobile Smith (Cracked me up)….and

then I wrote to Jane, and you and JAH…when all along a little voice was telling me “Nobody is writing anything to you LTL, so why in the world are you writing anything at all, you know better! But I always put my two cents when I probably shouldnt….except in this case I respect everyone involved and wanted to encourage us all to do what we preach! Say whats on our minds, not to take things personally and go have chats with ourselves…when we need to!

Make sure you dont need a stronger antibiotic if its still painful too much longer!!

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 6:11pm

You are too funny.

In my last post, I wrote “I am so confused,” and then erased it because I was too confused to know what exactly I was confused about.

Thank you for clarifying everything.

And the pain was mainly between my ears, but I think you cured it.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 7:14pm

I just got back from running a few errands and picking up some goodies at the getting store, aka…food, and I read the awesome funniness up above….haha.

Thanks for the giggles, Kathleen & LTL…

I also want to share my own somewhat amusing encounter while standing in line, patiently waiting my turn at the grocery store.

I casually noticed a dude and a woman in front of me, but I wasn’t paying all that much attention.

The woman walked off and I walked forward to put my goodies on the conveyor. I looked up at the dude…and lo & behold it was this guy that I went out with 2 times. By going out with him not once, but twice, I guess I needed to confirm that he wasn’t what I want in any way whatsoever.

The first thought that crashed into my head was….”I need a stronger glasses prescription if this is what I consider good looking” and the second thought was…”I really should hesitate on agreeing to go out on a date with some dude while tee many martoonies are sloshing around in my body”

He said..”hi, how’s it going?” and I said…”oh…fine, I didn’t recognize you”….haha.

Then I just flat out ignored him until he paid for his stuff and left.

Stupid mid size town. It’s inevitable that I run into a guy from the past and when I do…..so what?

They don’t scare me or cause me any discomfort at all. I bet I cause them MORE than a little discomfort with my blatant indifference.

I can don my OWN mask of aloofness that is impervious to any crap some dude wishes to dish out.

And that statement is NOT false bravado. No way, not after the years of bullchit I allowed others to give me. Nope. No can do, meester psychos.

Game..set…match…and JANE WINS!!!

xxoooxxxs……..

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 8:45pm

I am happy on my own now, I have been through too much to ever be in an intimate relationship again. I am more than happy to stay on my own. It sure saves a lot of stress.

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 9:08pm

Dear LTL, JustAbout,Jane,KH -All of the posts represented (sorry if left anyone out) You girls are on a roll tonite! Loving the posts, ya’ll are awesome! Very motivational. We’re all trying to get in our Zen place together!

Tilly says” I used to want to kill the alcoholic pychopath dentist but now i realize hes much more in pain being left alive
Hilarious! OMG you just said what I think all of us have felt before! xoxo to all..

Thursday, 7 May 2009 @ 9:58pm

To learned and justabout healed, Thanks for your insight. Emotionally I felt nothing beyond the physical response of sheer fear/panic. I was on my way to work, and I called my friend the boat guy because I knew he was in his car for that part of the day. I just asked him to tell me a funny a story. Of course he asked what happened, and I briefly told him and then said let’s get off this topic. He shared a funny story from his day and I began to laugh and relax. By the time I got to work my heart rate was only 122 so that is not too bad for me. Later as the night progressed, it got down to the 90s which for me is totally awesome. My medicine seems to be working both the actual pills and the laughter. My son graduates college tonight. After a celebration dinner, my daughter and I are headed back to Maryland/WVA to visit my friends again and to celebrate her sweet sixteen birthday. So really life is getting better daily and I’m feeling better in body, mind, and spirit. Hope everyone else is doing better day by day as well.

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 1:13pm

I hope you know that when I wrote that I was leery of receiving therapy that I do not dismiss the priceless, valuable service they offer to traumatized victims.

I never even considered speaking to a therapist as I’m stubborn, willful, private and suspicious and the thought of sharing my stuff with a stranger is just creepy for me to contemplate. That’s just me.

Maybe if I wasn’t such an obstinate brat I would have made a worthwhile decision in seeking help way before my struggles with clinical depression, generalized anxiety escalated to crisis situation for me.

But….I didn’t and I have 0 regret for my decision because I obviously wanted to do things the most difficult way imaginable….haha.

I’m happy you chose to finally seek a compassionate, learned therapist in an effort to dredge up such awful, painful childhood memories, experiences sos you could begin to heal your beautiful heart, mind and soul.

And now you’re sharing your experiences, your knowledge, your life skills with others so they filter what they need from your beneficial writing and use it to help themselves.

You’re correct when you wrote that no one is an authority here or in any aspect of our lives. We have been granted free will and the thinking capacity to make conscious decisions, choices on how we want our lives to be.

We can most certainly choose what information, material, knowledge that is relevant to who we are as unique individuals in striving to become more than we were yesterday, the day before that, 10 years ago.

I will say that I’m no longer the woman I was 5 years ago much less 10 years ago. Yes, my inherent nature, my inherent unique identity is still solidly intact but I have been reborn so many times that it’s become exciting, thrilling rather than a disconcerting change.

Wow…change is so awesome. Change for the better, of course…haha.

With love….xxoooxxooxxooxxss

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 1:33pm

Oh….btw–I’m watching a truly fascinating nature series that I ordered from Netflix called…..”Life in the Undergrowth” narrated by David Attenborough.

It is amazing and wonderful being able to view that hidden world that exists along side us. All those critters living their own little lives unaware that curious humans are poking their mini cameras into such tiny spaces.

Oh! And there’s dragonflies! And gorgeous butterflies and moths! And fuzzy bumblebees!….up close and personal, wot wot!

I’m such a biophile, celebrating all the myriad, diverse lives on this big, beautiful planet we call Earth.

Life is AWESOME!!…haha.

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 1:54pm

One more thing (burning up those LF wires, I am)…

I’m currently reading a fantasy/adventure series written by Terry Goodkind. That fella really loves women. Not only for their youthful physical beauty (which fades eventually, but a more mature enduring beauty blossoms and grows) but he admires and respects the heck out of them.

A primary character of the story, a woman sorceress is fervently speaking to the hero, a war wizard and she tells him…”you have no responsibility to live up to anyone’s else’s expectations. You have only to live up to your own expectations.”

She continues with saying…”Sometimes the people who love us the most have the highest expectations for us, and sometimes those expectations are idealized.”

Boy oh boy, can I so relate to these quotes. It might be obvious to you folks but I like to have reminders that I am a valuable human woman and my choices are mine and only mine to make.

That my life is mine and I can do with it what I damn well want to, living by my own values, standards, principles and morals that I consider paramount and NOT sacrificing these virtues to please any one person on this planet.

Why should I? Why should you? I believe these ideas can be applied to sicko predators, toxic people in general who seek to destroy that which is wonderful about us, not only to those who are near and dear to us.

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 2:51pm

Joy,

I wasn’t ignoring your comment just wanted to share the train of thought my odd brain had formulated.

I also read your earlier post regarding literally running into your ex-psycho. As LTL stated..it was legitimate shock you were feeling.

Oh man, I SO know what that feels like. I do. I believe we ALL can relate to those anxious, terrifying, heart pounding moments when we unassumingly run into our past predators while out & about.

It sucks, it does. I’m lucky that my ex music man sociopath lives 30 miles away from me otherwise if he had the misfortune of coming within 100 feet of me….I would have throttled him. Big time. With the red rage singing it’s fierce song in my head.

It’s so good of you to share with the LF tribe. I think we all, each of us has something important, something relevant, something reliable and trustworthy to give to each other.

Take care and remember……this too shall pass, but I bet you wish it would move it’s booty a tad bit faster, huh?

xxxoooxxooos….

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 3:26pm

Hey Joy,

The reason I asked about any emotional response is because I think the absence of one is a great sign that you are over a big hump… in fact its really a great sign!

The last would be the hump that Jane got over in line at the supermarket…a basic “Hey” to him (btw again I cracked up about Jane not believing her sober eyes that she was even with him to begin with! LOL…and turned away and IGNORED him! Thats down the road for you!!! TOWANDA!!

Enjoy your sons special moment tonight..and your weekend away with your daughter! Your posts have smiles in between the lines…Im so happy for you! Enjoy life!!!

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 3:44pm

Yeah, I ignored him which was a minor accomplishment for me as I was once overkilling with niceness, polite to the extreme, giving into the false social etiquette that has been programmed in women on how they should behave around all men, not only predators. Plus…I had no former affection for him so it wasn’t all that difficult to ignore his presence.

Furthermore, I’m flipping the bird to conformity. If I don’t like a person, if they repulse me in any way…..I’m going to make my displeasure KNOWN.

Either by immediately confronting said person or internally shrugging, being aloof and gliding away.

Gliding away over to the chocolate section, hopefully.

oooh….chocolate…yummy…

Huggles to you…

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 4:13pm

Jane…I saw a card in cardstore with a guy who was flashing a woman in the supermarket…open the card and its the woman saying…that reminds me I need to get baby carrots!

Im trying so hard to find the right balance of “how to be” in certain situations. Its such a fine line…such a fine line…

I never want to be the way he was – yet I never again want to be the programmed way I was…. for now Im taking it all in and assessing how to find the balance and how to put it into play…in a healthy selfish way!

Maybe Ill just carry chocolate around with me every day!

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 4:29pm

The guy in the card was my ex psychopath!

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 5:49pm

I do believe it takes oodles of time and practice with certain social scenarios to find the right balance in communicating with the peeps, most especially after loving and caring for a psycho.

And there’s no way, sweety pie, that you could ever, ever be like a predator. NO FRILLIN WAY!

Comparing you to a pathological personality disordered person is like comparing luscious, beautiful, tasty strawberries with foul, rotton, murky sewage.

See? Just no comparison. Oh, you’re the strawberries by the way, not the icky sewage…haha. (mee suckee with zee analogies)

Or…you could do what I’m doing, since I’ve started up that cumbersome hill leading to…ahem….middle age. Just do what pleases you, what makes you happy, joyful, fulfilled and content.

Even though I was disappointed with the..whatever was going on with my former lover…I’m not any longer. I was having a sad day when I commented on LF, but you folks are so wonderful that it didn’t last very long, you notice?

He’s just a guy and I’m just a gal. Things happen, some people just don’t mix well together, are not going in the same direction, etc. etc…

And if you’re going to carry chocolate around with you all day, you better guard it well. I can smell that stuff from across the continent, you know?

Card was funny so was Tilly’s response.

Peace, Love and Joy…..

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 6:25pm

Tilly – I so want to call you SIL_ _ TILLY!!!! But I promised to never do that! How about Comically Tilly!!!

Jane – You are hikin up that hill, full speed ahead, free spirited, wavin your TOWANDA FLAG…soon to be attracting the ones going in the same direction that will mix well with your new found ways!!

Please remember to send us postcards of you dipping strawberries in chocolate with the one who actually catches up to you and catches you!!!

You go girl overseas!!!!

Friday, 8 May 2009 @ 7:28pm

I didn’t see where you promised that! But I’m sure you don’t want me to call you what your psychopath called you…. do you?
I’m just getting my sense of humour back, but now that I have realised my daughter is a psychopath too, I’ve a bit more to deal with.

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 2:24am

Yep…I promised in a post to you that I would be mindful to never say that to you once you shared thats the nickname he used for you! Glad you are getting your sense of humor back (esp when you said t is was your x in the card – LOL), youre funny and its the other best medicine! Sorry about your realization about your daughter. Hope LF helps you through that journey too as it has helped me so much. Have a good day all…

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 7:04am

Kathleen Hawk;
I just wanted to say that you are a brave woman to put into words what we have been through and be so forthright and honest about those ugly stages of growth that we do endure. Whether we are honest with ourselves are not is up to us and we do not have to answer to anyone or slap anyone else in the face or feel that we need to defend where we are in the growth process. I do not feel that you talk down to anyone. They have to own those feelings. “No one makes you feel inadequate without your permission.” Please keep writing and expressing, and growing. Let your light SHINE in the darkness.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good (people) to do nothing.” (Edmund Burke) You have wonderful wisdom to share !

This quote from the Bible reminds me of you as well. It is so true for all of us. We have learned so much through grief.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 states:” For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Take care! Stay STRONG

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 9:48am

Still catching up on posts…..
Tilly, you can order all of these books from the library. I have only purchased one. The rest (about 4 or 5) I got from the library. They can order them from other branches or even other states!

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 2:07pm

So I’m thinking about my worst addiction, which is compulsive self-sufficiency. I’ve noticed I feel very lonely lately. I think I am usually lonely, but don’t often notice it, as I fill my life with compulsory things I need to do, like worry about my mortgage and fight with the mortgage company.

I have been given the option of a 6-month payment moratorium from the mortgage company with a short sale at the end. This can get me out of my current condo. I will have a little money saved up to move anywhere I want. I am realizing that at 48, I don’t even have close friends/family that I can move to be closer to. I cannot believe how much I’ve isolated myself. I thought about moving closer to my mom. I go back and forth over whether I want contact with her again. I miss her so much, especially around Mother’s Day.

Oxy, I wonder if this weekend is hard for you too? I am at the point of needing to forgive the people in my life who have hurt me, including her. I feel like I take a self-righteous stance with so many people that masquerades for setting rightful boundaries. It’s hard sometimes for me to know which is which. My mother will never remember how she accidentally broke my tooth all those years ago. She will never really understand how much my stepfather hurt me, or how she indirectly hurt me by staying married to him until he died. She will never “get” it. But I feel if she dies and I do not ever have contact with her again, I will never forgive myself. Yet, every time I try to forgive her and be around her, I get depressed. The loneliness is killing me, guys. I think it’s hard to let anyone get close to me because of of the few people I haven’t forgiven. Is anyone having issues with this?

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 2:14pm

witsend says:

Stargazer,
I can relate to you and how you feel around Mothers Day. It can be a very difficult day and bring up alot of emotions…Past and Present.
I am sorry that I don’t know the story if you have shared in the past about your mother and what the dynamics of your relationship is/was. But like you in the areas of my life where there are underlying issues, I am confused about setting boundaries as well.

When is it me putting up a brick wall because I don’t want to deal with the underling issues and when is it setting a healthy boudaries?

Maybe OXY can help us define this a little better….

I was told that when we forgive someone that really has done us wrong….The forgiveness isn’t really for them or even ABOUT them. It is about ourselves. Not forgiving someone HOLDS us back and keeps us in that “place”. Forgiving is not forgetting. Or justifying someones behavior.

It is to free our hearts from the “stagnant stuff”. To move beyond it. In a way forgiving, sets us free. And not forgiving holds us hostage.
It does not even mean that by forgiving them we have to have CONTACT with them or have them involved in our lives..
They have tried programs in jails, where the murder victims familys come in and actually forgive the convicted murderer.

Does that make sense? I’m not always very good with putting things into words…

For what it is worth, I have done this in my own life….Not just
“talking” the talk..
I have forgiven my husband for taking his own life. And for a long time I was unable to do that. And it has set me free. I do not feel “stuck” as I did before.

And as you spoke about your mother and not having contact and what will happen (regrets) when she is gone…….THAT is a tough one. I don’t know what your reason for no contact is…And sometimes N/C is a healthy choice.

I had a very difficult adult relationship with my father. (alcoholic) About a year before he died he had a slight stroke.

I wrote him a letter….Kind of a forgiving letter. (AFTER I wrote the first one that I never sent) But also included regrets of us NOT having an adult relationship. He never responded. I didn’t get the validation I wanted. However I did not regret sending the letter after he passed away.

Sometimes these decisions are so personal and have so much of our personal history attached that is is hard to know what the right thing to do is….Takes alot of personal reflection.

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 3:09pm

Thankyou Stargazer for telling me about the books..I will certainly be down the library finding out if i can get them! Thankyou thankyou!!! You are a Godsend!
My psychopath daughter uses mothers day to hurt me. But I have just recently made a no contact rule for the first time in her 30 year long abuse of me. So today my present from her will be NO ABUSE (because of NC rule)! And I am rapt! Anyway thats what I pray for.
My paraplegic mother who is a total psychopath and my psychopath father (who did it to her and when I was present, aged five…of course I remember it, memories like those are etched in ones head forever), will be at the old peoples home today. (Yes they stayed together).
My youngest son will come with me and we will all have lunch in a public restaurant and we will have a time limit of up to two hours maximum. Its usually one hour every month. But because its Mothers Day we are allowing for the crowds. You can guarantee that my mother and father, will drop their facade in the second hour and start trying to abuse me by telling me how much they have given to my psychopath brother lately. That is only one of their tacks. They have many. At which time, my mouth is zipped, my ears are closed and my son will whisper “only half an hour more mum”.
Or if it is too much (which it often is) I will go for a brief walk on the pretext of getting something out of the car. During which time I will pray and call my son to ask if we can leave a little earlier. He will make an excuse up and we will leave politely.
Why do I bother?
Because my mother was so evil to me words can’t express it. My father was evil by omission, which is slightly easier to take.My mother totally enmeshed me, so i need to attend certain functions (with supervision and in public), like mothers day, so that my head doesn’t get triggered with her guilt trips and F.O.G. She is capable of sending me crazy for a week . She doesn’t have my phone number. I see her when I have to. I am polite. I will give her a card and a bunch of flowers. I will pretend the past doesn’t exist for two hours maximun. She is 84. I didn’t see them for ten years once. But my psychopath daughter got us all “back together” again. It was a very happy ten years meaning I didn’t miss them. But she uses the guilt/paraplegic/victim thing and has since I was five, so I need to put myself first and make sure i NEVER feel guilty for ANYTHING in regards to her.
Then I will debrief with my son at my home for about an hour afterwards.
That is my mothers day.
Yes I am more than lucky to have my youngest son, who is a real person with emotions and feelings and empathy. I know how blessed I am to have him.
My middle son will ring me, late this arvo. He will be brief but friendly. His psychopathic father poisoned his mind against me. I lost him to him when he was 12. But I still love him and pray desperately that one day that he will wake up. But maybe he has the gene too.
This is just food for thought before you contact those who you “miss”.

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 4:05pm

P.S. My parents don’t know these are “rules” that my son and i have. They think we “drop in ” every month to see them and are “coming over to visit” for mothers day. If they knew I had specific rules they would never agree.

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 4:12pm

PPS: My middle son rings me three times a year. I never hear from him any other time. He rings on xmas day, my birthday and mothers day. I don’t know if he is punishing me or a psychopath or what. But i miss the little boy he was desperately.
Looking back, I can’t remember when my daughter was ever loving with feelings and empathy. But I remember her innocence. She had that.

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 4:18pm

Thanks, witsend. Your post did stir up some hope. I feel as though I have forgiven my mother and want her in my life, but I feel guilty about it because she has been so toxic to me in the past. I just don’t know to what extent I want her in my life. It eats away at me sometimes.

Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 8:24pm

Most of my life was lived for my mother. She should be in prison – no that would be too good for her. Honestly I had not even thought about mothers day – amazing what no contact can do..-well I better go to bed – I dont even like to be reminded of her – Happy Mothers Day Sis – I miss ya…

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 1:17am

Good morning, everybody. And Happy Mother’s Day from me to all the wonderful people who have nurtured me, comforted me and taught me in this great place. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I’m apparently still recovering from this big extraction (one and half hours, wide awake). My sister says it was an insult to my body and it takes my body a while to get over it. Just passed out early Friday night. Tried to have a long, busy day yesterday — travel, haircut, lunch with friends, movie, travel, gallery opening, travel, cook dinner — and passed out again. But I just caught up with this great thread. You people are just awesome.

I want to bounce off something Stargazer brought up, about the isolation. I woke up this morning, just asking God for help for all the tasks and paperwork I have backed up. And God gave me a nice organized list of things to do. Thanks, up there.

But it made me think about the same thing, isolation. I think the thing I most miss about being married is the sense that someone else is watching out for me, but also depending on me to get things done for both of us. It kept me on track. I felt like I was answerable, instead of the way I tend to get now, which is kind of drifty, letting things pile up and worrying about them.

Talking about fear of seeing people, I’ve been thinking about an old memory of someone I used to work for. It was about 15 years ago, when I first switched from journalism to PR. I had just moved from the South to western Jersey where the agency was, and the woman who owned the agency wanted me in New York for a 9 a.m. client meeting. She had a place to stay in the city, but I needed to drive in. Except for a simple trip to Chinatown (which is right beyond the Holland Tunnel), I’d never driven to New York. To get to this place, I had to take the Lincoln Tunnel, find the place in midtown and find a way to park. All new to me.

I give myself three hours, read maps before I went, and still got lost several times getting to the tunnel, got jammed in the rush hour traffic, had trouble finding the place, and arrived 20 minutes late. She threw me out of the meeting for being late. And then when it was over, came down to the lobby where I was waiting and tore me a new one about embarrassing her and telling me to never do anything like that again. I had just quit my old job, moved everything I owned up there, had my son enrolled in the new schools. Beyond that, I was brand new in the business, and she was teaching me. I just stared at her, nodding as she yelled at me, and walked away, feeling scared to death.

I went on to do great work at that agency, but I never got over it. She frightened me. And I don’t like being frightened. I spent all those years in fear with my father, and I interpret it as a kind of rape. I held that anger and fear inside of me. It was the most important causative factor in starting my own agency a year later and leaving her in a cutthroat way that virtually forced her to give me resources (my computer and databases) that enabled me to start my new company without a lot of upfront cost.

Later, when we were at the same trade shows, I would do everything I could to avoid her. Because I was still scared of her. She could just look at me, or I could just anticipate her looking at me, and feel that sharp fear rise. It drove me crazy that she still had that power over me, but it was years before I got over it. And I finally did get over it because I got so good at running my own agency that there was nothing “magical” about her anymore. Maybe nothing parental.

But when I go back and look at it now, all I see is a replay of living with my father’s anger. Having to shut up and take it. Not knowing how bad it was going to get, before he blew himself out. Of being accustomed to being bullied, rather than understood or supported. And having certain responses to it. Like doing whatever I had to do to avoid that anger. Like never, ever trying to explain or stand up for myself or ask for help. It made me very self-sufficient in terms of doing things, but very messed up emotionally.

And all of this relates so tightly to what Stargazer described as her addiction to isolation. It’s not that I expect everyone else to treat me like that. But there’s a part of me that says, “Why set yourself up?” Because I know I can’t handle it. That I won’t respond rationally to anything I hear as criticism or demands, but will just silently eat it and add to the toxic load in my system. It’s just easier and safer to to keep my own company. (And you may wonder how in the world I ever ran for office, but that’s exactly what drove me into therapy after the campaign, because I realized that I was incapable of using all the good and enthusiastic help I had around me at the time.)

And so all that played out as hyper-sensitivity, need for approval, occasional ego collapse when I just needed to be told by someone that I was okay, etc. And I never knew why or where it was coming from. That, in a nutshell, is my reason for going back to early events and re-parenting myself. The fact that I really didn’t know what was wrong with me, but I was living with the repercussions of it. Re-parenting doesn’t release all these insights at one time. But it does take some kind of pressure off. And as the fear recedes, I can see more of what it was about.

It was actually some discussion on this thread that got me to thinking about these knee-jerk fears I develop. Causing me to take another look at why I’m so darned reactive. And why it feels so much like fear.

I totally relate to strategies that involve making rules, and other strategies about just being ourselves, no matter what other people think. I’ve come to think that saying what I think and feel and letting other people deal with it is generally the best solution. (Unless I’m in a work environment or other situation where I have to be a little more politic.) But particularly with people I care about, I figure it’s better to let them know what’s going on with me. Sometimes, I wait until I think they can handle it better (like after dinner, rather than when they’re hungry). But if it’s important to me, I want them to know, because otherwise the little lies start to build up.

This is one of the reasons that I’m not dead sure that some of the people that I’d like to call sociopaths really are. Because I’ve been creating my side of the sociopathic transaction if I don’t contribute to the relationship by speaking up about how I feel and what I want, pursue my own objectives, demand to know if I don’t understand something, establish boundaries and enforce them, and not just act as though being accepted or loved is my main objective in life.

One of the hard things I’ve discovered about myself is that when I am loved, it frees me to go on to other things. And so I tend to “grow out of” my partners. It’s like I use them for vitamins or fertilizer to take care of some deep deprivation, so I can take off on some big growth spurt that leaves them behind. It’s not fair to them, and it’s one of the reasons, I am so committed to working through this damage in myself and learning how to nurture myself. So I am not going into relationships needy, and so that I can accept people for who they are (and maybe love them for it), rather than what I get from them.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 8:58am

This site is giving me fantastic strength! I have to go to work now but I have so much more to read and say here…what a great feeling…Thankyou for helping me to get my life back and for helping me to be ten times stronger than I was…I NEED EVERYONE OF YOU!!!! xo

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 4:15pm

Wow, Kathleen,
Your post really hit home for me, especially the last part about outgrowing partners once you feel loved. I believe I have done this many times as well.

But I need more perspective right now, as I’m feeling a little toxic. I have been missing my mom, so I broke down and called her after 2 or 3 years. I won’t go into the entire story of what she did. I always miss her when I cut her out of my life. The conversation started really good. But at a certain point, it deteriorated and became toxic. I feel I did my damndest to communicate well and listen to her. But she just was not able to deal with my feelings. She said the same thing on the phone she said 22 years ago when I (angrily) stood up to my stepfather for the first time: “I can’t handle it! I can’t handle it!” I did not react this time because I see this is about her own issues and inability to handle her own feelings that are triggered by mine. It has nothing to do with me. Though I’m proud of myself for staying so calm and non-reactive, I still felt toxic afterward. Obviously, I’m still internalizing a lot.

Once again, I’m feeling like I have to be the bigger person, the teacher, the mediator in my familial relationships. They are not able to meet me halfway. So either I play this role or I have no family.

Henry, I was reading your post about how your mother should have gone to prison (as mine probably should have too). It made me wonder why I would even want to try with my mom. I feel like she is trying too, but I came up against her limitations. At this point, I felt like I don’t want to be a victim and make anyone right or wrong. I just wanted to see if we can have a relationship. Naturally our relationship would have to be big enough to contain all the pain from our past and get throught it. I am willing. She is not.

I feel like an idiot for trying. I don’t think of my mom as evil, just very unconscious. I don’t know whether it’s better to keep trying or to just cut my losses, as my sister has done. My sister cannot handle a relationship with me or my mother, her last two living relatives. I think she’s the healthier one sometimes.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 5:44pm

Stargazer
I am so sorry that your call to your mother did not turn out the way you had hoped.

It does sound like you handled it better than you thought you might handle it awile back. Being nonreactive was likely the best response that you could have had to not be caught up in the “drama”.

I guess even though we can’t “pick” our family members and we are pretty much stuck with who they are, it DOESN’T mean that as adults we don’t have choices.

It sounds like your mother isn’t ready for a healthy adult relationship with you. And some relationships are big enough to contain the pain of the past and work through it. SO DON’T BLAME YOUSELF FOR TRYING.
I think that both people have got to be in the “right place” to do so though. Maybe she is not in that place.

When people get older sometimes they just do not wish to “go through” the pain to get past it. No pain, no gain is something more understood of our generation.

Please don’t beat yourself up for trying. It is natural to think of your mother on Mothers Day.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 6:15pm

Witsend, that is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you. I was feeling stupid for trying.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 6:25pm

I guess you can’t win ‘em all, can you? I still feel kind of numb from this interaction with my mom. I couldn’t even tell you what I want from her. I guess I just want to be able to be myself with her and have her be herself too. Naturally I will be different depending on who I’m with. Other people don’t push my buttons the way my mom does, even if they’re talking about the same topics. But it seems like almost everything she says pushes my buttons. I can see where this would be hard for her too.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 6:38pm

Stargazer: Please don’t feel stupid for trying! Witsend is right, it is natural to think of your mother on Mother’s Day.

So far my day has sucked too. It is 4:40pm here and my daughter has not called me and did not send a card. I have no idea why.

The lonliness is killing me. I try not to isolate… but friends are busy or do not call back.

My sister is the oldest and she is an Alpha Dog and is getting worse and worse. I play a role with her (as you mentioned) just so I will have a sister, I just smile and don’t say anything most of the time, I’m sick of it, if I disagree about something or if I get angry… it could turn into a “we don’t speak for the next 5 years” and I can’t go through that agony so I just let her be a bitch, I stay calm like you did, but I have to do it every other day! Ugh.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 6:46pm

Happy Mother’s Day, SC! I’m sorry you haven’t heard from your daughter. Maybe the card will get there tomorrow. Mine are often late. Even when I want nothing to do with my mom, it hurts me to think that she is alone without a card or call on Mother’s Day. Even when we weren’t speaking, I always send a card on that day, and that day only.

I have played the role of the therapist with my sister. It still never kept her in my life. She hasn’t contacted me in about 7 years. I just found out from my mother today that she (sister) is in San Francisco (where I once lived) and isapparently a very high profile person in the insurance industry. I think she once was a bank president. I was glad to hear that my mother apologized to her and that they talked for the first time in 20 years. But my sister now wants nothing to do with her (or me either). My sister and I never bonded, though I tried for many years. I finally gave up. Yesterday was her birthday. She is something like a bank president. I am a massage therapist. I can’t imagine there’d still be sibling rivalry. She obviously has done quite well for herself. But in abusive families like we had, it can feel toxic just to have the memories dredged up.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 7:02pm

Joy, on running into your x, I ran into my egg donor unexpectedly in the store one day and it knocked me for a physical AND emotional loop for about 18 hours, but you know, it also let me know that I am NOT under that kind of stress 24/7 any more—before lately, I felt that way ALL the time, now only once in a while, so actually, this is PROGRESS FOR YOU, ,the way I see it anyway! (((hugs))))

Star, the UNhealthy ones, for me are OUT of my life…it isn’t worth it to ME to put up with the “drama” of trying—they are not going to change into healthy, caring people, and I am not willing to deal with unhealthy uncaring jerks. No omatter what the relationship is—if that is “family”—then I don’t need it.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 7:17pm

Star: My brother and sister did not speak to each other for 15 years, mostly it became my brothers fault because after a while she was like “get over it”. When our dad was sick and in the hospital in 2003 they were forced to be in the little hospital room together and finally started at least speaking to each other. I’m the middle child, does that mean I’m a peacemaker? Because I feel like a blob. I don’t react to much of anything anymore, probably why I was so attractive to the S.

IMO this goes on in a lot of families, we just don’t hear about it, people don’t like to talk about it. So you’re sister is something like a bank president… BFD.. LOL. I don’t even have a job. Jeez, she didn’t talk to your mom for 20 years??!!

My family put the “fun” in dysfunctional, LOL.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 7:18pm

Stargazer:

What you did today was GREAT!! Even though the call did not go exactly as you would have liked, IT’S OK BECAUSE YOU TRIED!! That is HUGE!!

Your payoff will come later. I don’t want to get morbid here. But someday, your Mom will be laying in a casket, and you will be able to go to her funeral with NO REGRETS because YOU REACHED OUT!!

Someday, you will be glad you did it. And you will be at peace.

Attending a loved one’s funeral filled with regret over things you should have, would have, could have said or done is a horrible burden to carry. You did the right thing by calling. I would encourage you to continue to do it on YOUR terms.

P.S. And we all have “touchy moments” with our mothers, no matter how close we are to them. I talk to my Mom every day, and there are times when we get onto a certain subject when I just have to say, “Gotta go, Mom..Love you..Bye.” And I get off the phone ASAP. So it happens to ALL of us.

Footnote to the above:

I am speaking specifically to Stargazer’s situation.

I understand everyone’s situation is different, and some people have to protect themselves from their family members.

That’s totally different.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 7:57pm

Rosa,
I cried so hard when I read your post, and I’m still crying. It’s one of the reasons I called her. I didn’t want to have regrets after she’s gone.

Even though the conversation ended on an unpleasant tone, I didn’t make any sweeping statements like “we shouldn’t talk to each other any more”. I just ended the call by telling her I loved her. You are exactly right. If I never talk to her again, I’m glad I made the call. Thank you.

Oxy, part of me wishes I could just take this stance with my mother and say: You are not willing to acknowledge my feelings, so you are no longer in my life. I don’t know why, but I just can’t. It may be my downfall. I feel she is at least trying. As long as I see someone trying, I reach a hand out to them. It’s what I would want others to do for me, too. I don’t think I will ever close the door on my mother. I just have to figure out what “my terms” means. I don’t really know the terms.

We all deserved to have parents who loved us and cherished us. We all didn’t get those kinds of parents. But we can get past this. Mother’s day is such a weird day. I’m so grateful for all of you here, like a little family.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 8:53pm

P.S. Shabbychic, my family took the fun out of dysfunctional. LOL

I don’t fault my sister for her choices. I know what she went through and how messed up she is. She was abused worse than I was. I only wish the best for her. I’m pretty sure I will never talk to her again.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 8:57pm

I have long said that when my mother is dead and being lowered into the ground I will feel relief.

Last week I learned that my mother was in congestive heart failure and the cardiologist has decided she needed heart surgery.

I went to see her this weekend. As usual she pushed all my buttons and we got into a fight. I was so angry that I still let her get to me the way she does, that I still get angry, and that we keep going over the same old territory.

Somehow, I have once again found myself doing all the caregiving and dealing with someone who abused me terribly, both physically and emotionally when I was growing up. Quite frankly, she and my father both deserved to be sent to prison for what they did to me.

I have finally reconciled myself to the idea that I will never be loved by this woman. There is a part of me that keeps trying to make her understand what she did to me. I have to admit that I hate the way I feel about myself after that. And I wish that I could just wash my hands of her once and for all.

And then there is the part of me that realizes that if I don’t do what I can do for her now, that I will let her take the best part of me into her grave with me.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 9:01pm

Stargazer, I really feel for you. I couldn’t have a conversation with either of my parents without someone getting upset. And, like you, I always had the feeling that I was the one responsible for protecting everyone else.

Here’s a thought. You want to have a relationship with these people. But it sounds like they can’t handle having a relationship with you. Your mother doesn’t want to know how you feel. There’s no room in the room for you to be you.

It’s unfortunate that she’s too sensitive or brittle or guilt-ridden of whatever to allow you to talk about yourself. And I mean it really is unfortunate. Because you have had a lot of drama in your life lately which would make for great conversation, if anyone could get out of their own internal dramas long enough to listen to your stories.

All of us know how great you’ve been doing. All the steps you’ve taken to get over a rotten relationship. About all the things happening on your favorite web site. About the change in the way you think about things. About all the new ideas you’ve been experimenting with. You’ve got a lot to talk about, and that doesn’t even touch what’s going on in your life.

It doesn’t take a lot of effort to say things like, “Wow, that’s really interesting.” Or “Gosh, that sounds like it was really hard.” Or “Holy cow, what did you do then.” Or “You really handled that well.” Or “Yuck, what a rotten situation.” Or “I really hope this works out for you.”

These are just the things that a good listener says to express interest and caring. They don’t require the other person to bail you out, lend you money or do anything else to inconvenience themselves.

A good conversation is just basically swapping stories. Stuff from your life. Stuff from the other person’s life. Sharing.

And that’s what these people apparently can’t do. Instead they (and maybe you too, I don’t know) want to something more. They want to be protected. They want you to edit yourself. They want to control things.

You have to decide whether you want to play this game. As I’ve written here before, I think, especially with people you care about, it’s better to be yourself. As one of my therapists once said, “If they don’t like you when you’re pretending to be someone else, they’re probably not going to like you when they find out who you really are.” In other words, if they can’t handle you, there’s not much you can do about it.

If you really want a family, you can create your own. A family of choice. People who can listen, do care, aren’t afraid of you or what you might say, who can laugh when you’re funny, and put an arm around you when you’re sad.

You can do better, Stargazer. You’re missing people who don’t exist. It’s like missing the loving sociopath.

Here’s a hug from me. I’ll be one of your family, and I know a lot of us would be too.

P.S. Mothers Day, like Valentines Day, is an invention of the card companies that makes people miserable. You don’t have to play that game either.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 9:04pm

Mother’s Day can be hard for many of us. One day I wrote this poem about my mother and would like to share it today…

By: James

Mother and Child

A mother’s love should be so deep and long lasting
A bond given by birth one a child the other a mother to this child
Two who shared the same flesh and the same heart beat for awhile
A child given by God to love and nourish with needs to meet
This is how all mothers start out to be for any child

But sometimes a mother so lost to herself and child
Finds herself not wanting this precious child
Defining this child to be what she needs
Destroying both child and this mother who
Could never meet the child needs or desirers

So this mother trades this child for another love
Then forget this one so precious and dear this child should be
So that the child grows apart from her and her needs
Learning that this mother’s love was only for her self
and never for this precious child

Both God and child will leave this one to be
In a place so deep and cold this mother shall be
Place there by her hand and her own desirers
Who forsaken a child so precious and dear
For now this child will forget her
But not just the child today’s
Nay but for all the child’s tomorrows

Now this mother will spend all her ending days
Believing someday both child and mother again will be
Together and bonded as they were once before
But alas now she lies only to herself and not the child

For you see that child now has completed their own
autonomy and knows who this person really is
and that she was never that mother she pretended to be
Nor shall she ever be for all eternality

Lost to not only God and child but herself as
well she will need to pay that price for all her denials
For not just her today’s Nay for all her tomorrow’s
There she lives in pain and denial for all her yesterdays
Regrets for all her lies and denials to her self and her lost child

To all those mothers who loved their children unconditionally may God bless you in peace and love on this special day!

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 9:09pm

newlife08 says:

MAtt
Glad to see you back . I was concerned not seeing you here.

My thoughts are with you on taking care of a non-nurturing mom. It took me awhile to work up to make the Mother’s Day call and once again – it waqs all about her-at 82 she will never change. Her diabetes, dialysis, how the tax guy screwed her over. Non stop and one -what is new for me.

She knows my world is upside down but cannot see much beyond herself.

I think we do what we have to so we have no regrets – but even the price for that peace of mind isn’t cheap.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 9:16pm

James: Thank you for sharing your poem, heartbreaking to read, for you and your mom, but so truthful and soulful, so very well written, but something you probably never wanted to write… am I making any sense? I admire your ability to put your heart on paper, even though it is about something that has caused you so much pain, I don’t have that talent but wish I did.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 10:08pm

HI MATT!

I am so happy to see you back online. I missed you!!

I have read your previous posts about your childhood as well as the one above.

Matt: You are a good man, GREAT son, and amazing person. By caring for your Mom at this stage, it just speaks volumes about your character as a human being.

The accounts of your childhood are absolutely horrifying. And yet, you seem to have come out of it without letting your abusive parents take the “best part of you”.

I am sure you have deep scars from your childhood, but how did manage to cope at the time? And how did you manage to come out of it so unaffected (at least that is how you appear) by it all?

The care that you continue to give your Mother, I would do the same thing in your position (I think). At least I hope I could find the strength.

Anyway, Happy Mother’s Day to YOU, Matt. It sounds like you are the one who has been doing the “Mothering” on this Mother’s Day weekend.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 10:17pm

For so many it seems this was a difficult day. It was a lonely day and lonely days tend to be long days…

My oldest did call and wish me a Happy Mothers Day and sent me some nice roses….That was very thoughtful.
I guess I just missed human contact today. And of course missed my own mother….I wondered how many Mothers days she felt lonely when we lived a distance from each other?

Tomorrow is the day I am going to the court house to petition to family court for the incorrigible teenager.

Please leep me in your thoughts and your prayers as although I gave this alot of thought I still have alot of fear.

It still seems to me to be the biggest decision I have ever made regarding my sons future and I hope that it is the right one.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 10:49pm

I am glad you saw my post. There is no reason that you cannot pick up the phone and call your Mom just to say “Hi”.

Keep the conversations light. Just try to avoid the “toxic topics” where you know there will be No Progress. No need to go there. That’s what I do with my Mom.

Although, my mom and I have gotten into some really “heated” discussions where I have hung up on her. And then I have to call later and say “Sorry I hung up but you really pissed me off.” It happens.

I would just tell you to keep reaching out whenever you want to keep the dialogue going. That’s the main thing.

If she cannot see her beautiful daughter is reaching out to her, it is HER LOSS. NOT YOURS.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 11:04pm

Dear Witsend,

Thanks again for today…and I wish you all the strength and courage possible for tomorrow. You will definitely be in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep us posted. Remember to trust yourself and always know you are doing your best. We will all be with you every step of the way supporting your decisions and journey — both of your sons are very blessed to have your care and love and concern about their futures! Good Luck!!!

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 11:31pm

Matt, I just read your post. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

You wrote: “And then there is the part of me that realizes that if I don’t do what I can do for her now, that I will let her take the best part of me into her grave with me.”

You know what I’m going to say, so I’m not going to bore you with it. You’ll do what you think is right.

After resisting it for a long time, I finally watched “A Mighty Heart” this weekend. It’s about the efforts of Mariane Pearl to find and rescue her husband, Daniel Pearl, the Wall Street Journal reporter who was kidnapped and ultimately killed by terrorists in Pakistan. I don’t remember the exact words of her last television interview after learning of Daniel’s death, but they were compassionate toward the terrorists and a powerful testament to her values.

In dealing with the sickness or dying of abusive parents, it is so difficult to find the balance between taking care of ourselves and acting on our values. And risky too. Because it is easy to do damage to ourselves in honoring the role, if not the performance, of our parents. At some level, we know they did their best. But we carry the marks of how far short they fell. And it feels like we have to ignore our wounds just long enough to see them off to the next life.

You know we care so much for you. Speaking for myself, I love you, if love is appreciation and gratitude for your presence here and in my life. I know I’m not alone. I don’t know if you can feel that through the troubles you’re working through right now. But it’s here.

I know I keep saying the same thing, but I’m going to say it again. Be yourself. Tell your own truth. You can her that gift that she needs, while you give her what she wants, which is you being there for her. You’re a good man. She’ll see who you really are or she won’t. But I think it’s good to give her the opportunity.

I’m working my way through Alan Furst’s novels. If you don’t know him, Google him. They’re truly amazing books about intelligence work during World War II, and they teach me a great deal.

I’ve been looking for an occasion to drop this excerpt into a LoveFraud post. It comes from a book titled “Night Soldiers.” The scene is between a young Romanian training to be a spy and one of his teachers. They are playing chess, and the boy has just realized that his teacher won by cheating.

“Yes, boy, I cheated you. I moved a piece while you were daydreaming out the window, enchanted by our Russian snow. I acknowledge it!”

“But why, comrade Major? You could have won without that.”

“Yes, I could have. You do some things well, comrade student, but you play chess like a barbarian. I merely wanted to teach you something. It is my job now.”

“Teach me what, comrade Major?”

Ozunov sighed, “I am told Lenin once called it the Bolshevik Variation, simply another strategy, like the Sicilian Defense. It has two parts to it. The first is this: win at all costs. Do anything you have to do, anything, but win. There are no rules.”

Kristo hesitated. He had a response to this, but it was very bold and he was not sure of himself. At last, he took the leap.

“I have learned what you wanted to teach me, comrade Major,” he said, opening his palm to show Ozunov the white pawn he had stolen when the telephone rang.

“You’re a good student,” Ozunov said. “Now learn the second part of the Variation: make the opponent play your game. And the more he despises your methods, the more you must make him use them. The more he arms himself with virtue, the more you must make him fight in the dirt. Then you have him.”

Matt, perhaps you can find something for yourself in that story. I did. It made me think a lot about what happened at different times of my life.

Now you’re heading into a new chapter with your mother. Maybe you can just be Matt, and not play by her methods at all.

Namaste.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 11:48pm

James, that is a very sad and angry poem. It broke my heart, both as a mother and as someone who cares about you.

I read the last line, and thought no mother loves unconditionally. We also want our children to be something that isn’t necessarily what they are, and we ultimately have to accept that they are their own people. But in addition, as a mother, I know that it is almost impossible not to love and believe in your child inner sweetness, no matter what they do. (And I feel for those here who have had to close their hearts to their children; I can’t imagine anything harder.)

Your mother sounds like a tragic person. You have gone so far in breaking the cycle of generational transmission of tragedy. From my own perspective, I know how very hard that is. This is your day, James, for all you have done to free yourself.

Namaste and applause too.

Sunday, 10 May 2009 @ 11:58pm

ErinBrockovich says:

It’s odd how we deal with the different personalities in our life on a different level.
I think my mother is for sure a N. I have focused so much on my ‘immediate’ situation divorcing the S and trying to keep my health at some sort of ‘living’ level that I have not been able to grant much time to the betrayal of my parents. Although….it sure has been there. I went NC with them 18 months ago when they continued to speak to the S. He used them and manipulated them for information on me and the kids. Such unimaginable betrayal by a parent.
I shared with you all recently that they had a break in and stuff was stolen that the S would be the only one who knew where it was and needed…….once they were violated, of felt violated, they reached out to me. I just can’t forgive or get past the betrayal from them. I will never trust them and quite frankly can’t ‘pretend’ and deny that they abandonded me at a time I had cancer and an S haunting me, among other horrid acts.
So….for part of the ‘game’ I am in, I decided to hear them out….I got to speak and for some SICK reason….or just plane denial….(of which my mother is a master of), they think all is well currently. Even if they appologized it wouldn’t take away the lack of trust and sheer betrayal from them. I don’t really think they think they have a reason to appologize so that would negate any appology. I will never place myself as a vulnerable person they can hurt again. I will never trust them with my feelings.
So….it behooved me to ‘pretend’ (I played manipulator) to allow them contact with me. If that cut’s off the S’s supply with them, so be it. Two can play that game.
So part of the game came today…..I sent a generic Happy Mothers Day email. She called me to say thank you and that meant alot to her. But had to go because the neighbors were coming over for cocktails….yeah fine. No worries.
I guess my point is….I haven’t delved into this relatinoship and what I want to do with it. I am deeply hurt, and I know I will never have what I thought I had in my parents. Love, trust, support, empathy….. THey are old and probably not long for this world, so I may not put too much into it later either. They don’t live close so I don’t have to deal with them. I don’t have to attend family functions either. With us ‘talking’ it at least gives the rest of the family a sigh of relief that they don’t feel they must ‘keep secrets’ about remaining a support for me. My mother went ballistic with all of them and caused an immense amount of tension in the family trying to allienate me…… MY PARENTS!!!! They acted as puppets of the S.
Even though I have spent the majority of my life with the S, it seems harder to accept the betrayal from someone who should be your protector, your guardians, your advocates…no matter what. They are not. This too was my fantasy, and mine only. It never was that way….shouldn’t have been a shock to me, when they denied my rape as a child by a family member. But still…..it seems horrid, because they were my parents.
It’s ironic…the saying you can choose your friends….
In all relationships I choose to surround myself with currently, I know it’s my choice. The reality is, I wouldn’t choose to spend time around my parents. They are not the kind of uplifting, quality, supportive and real people I want in my life. So just because they are part of me due to default….doesn’t mean I must play the role they dictate to me. They didn’t play the parental role.
So….at this point, they act as if all is okay….they need this for their own preservation and denial….that’s fine….I will pop an email to play their game…..but I don’t have to belileve in their beliefs or play their denial and shove it under the rug.
I will get out of the relationship just what I need for now.
What a sad, sad situation. I never thought I would use what the S taught me. But it’s against him….so I justify the cut off!
At this point, anything I can do to plant seeds, expose or just plane get a leg up on the S, I will do. I have turned the tables on him.
I know he is aware there is a ‘lack of supply’ from them now….they keep calling me saying, ‘oh dear, he keeps calling us and we won’t pick up.’ Almost asking me for advice. I just say….good for you, your doing the right thing. I know him….he will stop calling and go away.
But at least I know he is still trying to contact them by their calls to me.
It places me in a much less vulnerable position with the S.
Gotta do what we gotta do!
I am hoping by this week….my divorce will go through and I can get back to ‘normal’ or at least a new normal and not focus on any of this crap again!

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 3:51am

Dear Erin,

I can totally relate to my egg donor (sperm donor is dead and gone) giving supply, support and money to my P-son who is trying to kill me…I iam NC with her except for e mails about business ONLY–no Dear Mom, no salutation at all, no “love Oxy” just my name at the end. BUSINESS ONLY, of course though SHE thinks it is “progress” ini us talking. NO WAY—she is a TOXIC enabler and LIAR.

It DOES HURT, especially at first, but I am getting to the point that I just really do not miss her or our “relationship” at all.

I can understand that you want to keep them “on your side” and if my egg donor had not lied again and had not sent money to my P-son (while lying about it) I would have had a “distant” relationship with her, and so would my son C have done, but we warned her that if she continued to send money and lie, we would go NC. she did and we did. She of course, feels the victim of our “poor sportsmanship”—for lack of a better word. LOL ROTFLMAO Talk about trivalizing terror!

I say “do what ya gotta do” to keep them from passing on information. First off, limit the INFO THAT THEY HAVE. Or give DIS-information to othem.

It is amazxing to me how when we REALLY start to heal how these here-to-fore unrecognized MONSTERS from our PAST start to surface and we h ave to deal with them one by one. New realizations of past abuse that we have buried in the past because it was TOO PAINFUL to deal with and here we are at our lowest ebb and we start to deal with them, one after another. Sort of like digging through the muck layer by layer, but as we get closer and closer to the bottom of this horrible abyss, the healing peace helps us to deal with them. I’m not sure how far from the bottom layer of chit I am, but it seems that less and less chit surfaces to be dealt with.

And, each time I have succeeded in dealing with some chit, the next batch that floats to the top to be dealt with is easier than the last one, though still painful. It isn’t that I would wish my egg donor dead and gone (though frankly I DO wish my son would be) I know it will be a RELIEF when she is dead and gone and I don’t have to wonder what she is doing to hurt me more, or help my P-son to hurt me.

While when a “chit happens” thing, like getting hit by a car, or having a flat tire, or getting pneumonia or breaking a leg is nothing that we did “wrong”, it is just a “chit happens” type of thing we can deal with it without wondering if there is another car out there “waiting on us” or if there is another nail out in the road just waiting for our tire to pass by. LOL With the psychopaths, though they would do the same thing to anyone who was their victim, in a way it IS personal because they WANT to hurt us, where the nail that flatens our tire when we are late for work doesn’t do it to hurt us.

Although in a way, it isn’t personal with the Ps either, it is just WHAT THEY DO. Their dupes by the same token are just in the FOG of the P and are doign what dupes do. Giving aid to the enemy. It is all very frustrating.

Good luck and hope your week goes better! (((hugs))))

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 9:05am

Oxy, I loved what you wrote here. That’s how it was for me too. Layer by layer. Sometimes, I think that half the battle is the willingness to look at it, and see it’s impact on my life.

The way you ended your post — “it isn’t personal with the Ps either, it is just WHAT THEY DO” — I think that’s true with everyone. A wise old friend of mine says, in relation to people saying that they were forced to do one thing or another, “People do what they want to do.”

I’m not quite so cynical about it, but it comes down to the same thing. People are who they are, and we have to accept them as they are. Not always like everything about them. Not deal with them, necessarily. But recognize that they’re not going to be what we want them to be. What you see is what you get.

And I think this really relates to all the problems with parents that have been written about in the last few day, including my own. When we’re children, we have special issues because we dependent on them. Their problems become our problems. But now, as adults, the more healed we get, the more we realize that they’re not really part of us. They’re other people who have their own lives, values, mind sets, etc. We have a lot of shared memories, and a lot of shared understanding, good or bad. But we can’t change them, and we can’t get any more out of them than they’re capable of giving.

If we admire them and enjoy them, we cultivate the relationships, as we would with anyone we admire and enjoy. But if we don’t, we pull away.

Despite the fact that my mother didn’t protect me from my father, I always felt that I owed her a lot. She was as good a mother as she could be, and she gave up many years of her life to take care of us, teach us as much as she could, and try to set us on a good path. Her failures were about her inability, for reason of her psychological damage and the economic circumstances that kept her in the marriage, to fight back or leave him. I can’t really maintain any level of anger with her. She was as much a victim as we were.

My father was a walking tragedy. So much potential, but ruined in so many ways. And he ruined his children in turn. He is my first lesson in walking away. I saw through him, understood why he was the way he was. But what he did was so damaging to the people around him that he just needed to be banished. Unfortunately, no one but me was able to banish him. It made me cry to do it, and I could still cry over it if I thought about it too much. But on a psychological level, I had to let him go.

When I read Thomas Hardy’s books about village life in England, they made me think a lot about how these small communities dealt with people. They accepted and cared for all kinds of people with many disabilities. But when it came to violence or incorrigible criminality, they thew them out. It was the worst thing they could think of, and I think they had it right.

We live in such an alienated society that we forget these simple things. But I think the principle holds. The way to deal with these people in our own hearts is to simply throw them out. We may even be able to understand why they are that way and continue to love the good in them. But that doesn’t mean that we continue to deal with them. If they can’t change, if they continue to create chaos and destruction, there is no place for them in our lives.

Erin, I hear how bitter you are. I hope it works out. They clearly failed you. I can understand their being sucked in by him, but not supporting you when you were fighting cancer really goes over the line. It’s too bad that they are not the parents you want them to be, but you also sound like you are the stronger, wiser person.

I wish you well with the divorce. I hope it finishes quickly.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 9:55am

ErinBrokovich:

The betrayal of a parent during a divorce is truly staggering. A memory that is absolutely branded on my brain involved my parents during my divorce. I went up their on Christmas Eve. My mother couldn’t get me out of the house fast enough Christmas night.

I found out from one of my siblings a few weeks later that she had invited my ex in to spend almost a week with her and my father. The betrayal I felt cannot be described.

And it continued. I now realize my mother was feeding my ex information so she could jack me around in court.

It reached a culmination when they were celebrating their 50th. My siblings took one look at her guest list and presented a united front and told her that if she insisted on inviting my ex, they would all refuse to come to the party.

And what really blows my mind is that my mother, to this day, doesn’t seem to think she did anything wrong.

And the winner of the Mother of All Mothers Award is…

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 11:16am

Thanks for the “Night Soldiers” story. After this weekend I realized that I’ve got to employ new tactics, if for no other reason to maintain my sanity.

I got so ticked at myself this weekend as I kept stepping on the landmines they put out there. My father, undercutting me right in front of their contractor (whom, I point out, I am paying for). My mother, manipulating and denying my reality. I mean, at this point, their attempts would appear, to the unbiased observer, not only pathetic, but so obvious to be laughable. But, in I waded.

So, I’ve got to sit down and think about how I am going to handle this whole mess.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 11:21am

Alot has been said here recently about our adult pain in relation to our parents….

My father was a very verbally abusive alcoholic. He also threw things around during rages and often dinner time in our house was the “time” for these rages.
As a young adult I had a difficult relationship with my father.
My mother was a good mother and did the best she could in a bad situation. I felt similar to what Kathleen stated in her post. My mother didn’t protect me from my father but essentually she did give me much of what I needed to survive in that household and beyond.

At some point in my 30’s I found myself for the first time in my life angry with my mother (my anger was always directed at my father)…. I was contemplating divorce from my older sons father. Who was an alcoholic.

It brought to surface again why my mother stayed with such an abusive man? All of my thoughts of reasoning (why she stayed) I was now facing with my own alcoholic husband, economics, lack of my having a decent self supporting job, fear of raising a child alone, etc….

My mother was hard to talk to about past “issues” (the pink elephant in the room we didn’t talk about) However I persisted and asked for a REASON why she stayed. I am so glad I persisted as I thought I “knew” her reasons, thinking them very similar to my own, when I faced fear of MY own divorce.

I was wrong….My mother told me that the reason she stayed with my father was because her own father died when she was only 3 years old. She thought (because of HER OWN experience) that my father although not a good father was better than having NO father at all….

Wow….I would have never known THIS (as her reason) if I had tried my whole lifetime to figure this out. I am grateful to know this because although it doesn’t change my childhood it certainly sheds some light to how my mother felt.

Sometimes it doesn’t pay to ask the questions and sometimes it does….
For me this gave me the insite I needed and I was able to retain a good relationship with my mother instead of dealing with the new found anger that was initiated during my divorce.

So although I was never able to have a relationship with my father as an adult, My relationship with my mother was saved I believe by asking one question that she WAS ABLE (thankfully) to give me an answer to.
And I was also in a place in my life where I was able to accept her answer. And understand it to the best of my ability.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 11:31am

Matt: When I read your share above, I was touched for you in a place beyond words. I FELT the precious little boy, the innocent, sweet little child of God. I wanted to sweep him up and hold him and whisper in his ear how SPECIAL he was and how important it is for him to be here in this Universe. I felt God’s love for you, and I now pray that you will take what you want and leave the rest of what I want to say to you. That precious little guy is still within you. He is frightened and bewildered by events he still doesn’t understand -things that were done to him and said to him at the hands of VERY sick people. I am offering up a prayer for you that you will be wrapped in the warmth of God’s love as you come to know the unique person you are with gifts that no one else possesses in quite the way that you do. You are an AMAZING person. My prayer for you today, Matt., is that you will be healed of the Mother wound that has been lying deep within you. You have touched my life in such a deep way today as I see in my mind’s eye that little guy that has been so very brave. Peace, my brother.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 12:35pm

I thought about what I wrote in my last post, and want to add one more thing. I once ran into an article online, and I wish I’d saved it. It was about something in Corinthians that the writer interpreted as “loving from a distance.”

When people we love do not act in ways that make them deserving of our love, we sometimes have to distance ourselves from them. Let them live with the repercussions of their actions, including the repercussion of not enjoying us.

We keep the doors in our hearts open, as long as we care to, in case they genuinely learn from their mistakes. But they have to do their own learning, and they have to earn their way back into our lives when they’ve grown up, if ever.

I don’t think this relates to sociopaths, who do not learn from their mistakes. But in dealing with people who are not so irreparably ill, perhaps just weak or needy or ignorant of how their behavior affects others, I think this lesson is about conditional trust.

That is, we trust people if they earn it. We withdraw our trust when they don’t. (And along with trust, all the goodies that go with it — affection, involvement in their lives, etc.) Nothing is permanent, until we decide we just don’t want to wait around anymore for them to step up to our requirements. And our requirements are not about them, but about what we allow in our lives.

We can’t change anyone. But sometimes by making and enforcing our own requirements, we can create an opportunity for them to see a reason to change themselves. If it means enough to them.

Meanwhile, we don’t wait around for them, but just go on with our lives. It may seem like we’re taking a risk. But really the risk is theirs. We may or may not be interested or willing when they finally get themselves together.

I think the Corinthians piece related to lovers. But I think it relates equally to parents who either cannot accept us as we are, or who do things to us that we find unacceptable.

Steve Becker’s wonderful article about the “silent treatment” is, like many other sociopath tactics, also a description of something we too can do. Not in the heavy-handed, contemptuous, overbearing way that sociopaths do it. But with kindness and compassion. By simply not collaborating with other people’s dysfunctional behavior. Not enabling. Not cleaning up after them. And absolutely not hanging around to participate in something that is harmful to us or anyone else. There is a way to just turn off our lights, or swivel them around to pay attention to something else, rather than engaging in hand-to-hand silliness with someone who is trying to validate their fear- or needs-based behavior by getting us involved in it.

witsend, thanks for the story. I asked my mother too, more than once, why she didn’t leave him. She, unfortunately, didn’t have as good an answer. She was just emotionally broken down. She was an R.N. I think we could have made it without him. We would have been poor, but it would have been a better life. But she might have been right in another sense, because I’m not sure she would have been able to escape him. Between the charm that he could turn on at will and his absolutely belief that he owned us kids for whatever purpose he wanted to use us, it would have taken a stronger person than she was, I think.

You know, even when I was very small, I used to think that part of my destiny was to live the life she might have had, to fulfill her potential, if she hadn’t married him. When she died, she was so bitter and ashamed of what had happened to her children. I hope that she is free of all that now, and if she can see us, she is gratified by how the survivors — my son, my sister, my late brother’s daughter, and me — are working so hard to change the family story now. She gave us these values.

Matt, the only thing I think when I hear you talk about your parents is that they are weak. In a lot of ways. Your mother sounds needy. Both of them sound ignorant.

It’s one of the things I keep thinking when I hear these family stories. Our feelings get hurt. But the reality is that we have so much more information than they do. I don’t know if it’s a generational thing, that we’re just better informed because we have better educations or the Internet to keep growing our minds. Or that, in this generation, a lot of us have a belief in a different kind of psychological and spiritual life, one of continuing growth and development.

That last bit wasn’t part of my parents’ understanding of themselves or the world. Especially my father. He just thought you stayed, more or less, where you were born, unless you were smart or crooked enough to get rich at the expense of other people. The idea of going to therapy was outrageous to them, as was asking anyone for help. Between my father’s paranoid fear of exposure and my mother’s tight-lipped endurance, they lived in a closed little world where they did the same things over and over, increasingly resentful that nothing changed.

We really are different than that. Especially the group of us here at LoveFraud. We believe in healing. And in healing, we believe in getting smarter, stronger and wiser. I know this sounds terribly elitist, and maybe it is, but in dealing with these people who seem unable to learn and unwilling to open their minds, I think we’re dealing with an older version of homo sapiens.

For our own sanity and in order to maintain a reasonable courtesy with them, it may help to remember that.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 1:05pm

I was glad I called my mother because it alleviated my guilt. It also brought me out of denial, and now I’m dealing with the anger of her narcissism. She would rather cut off a relationship with me than deal with my feelings. I plan to tell her in an email that until she is willing to listen and really hear my feelings, we have nothing to say to each other. Even that doesn’t touch the anger I feel about her betrayal. I spent my entire childhood protecting her feelings and taking care of her. I was the one abused by my stepfather, not her. She has asked repeatedly what I want her to do to make up for what she put me though. But she has never been willing to do anything I asked. I figure I’m giving her the easy way out, only asking her to deal with my residual feelings from the abuse. She doesn’t want anything to do with it. Talking to my therapist today, I got pretty clear that she is a narcissist. I wasn’t sure before, or maybe I just forgot. I doubt an email would even do any good. Either way, I think that conversation yesterday was our last. I feel good that at least I tried one last time.

Sounds like lots of us here are going through similar things with our families this weekend.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 1:32pm

Kathleen wrote….

“It’s one of the things I keep thinking when I hear these family stories. Our feelings get hurt. But the reality is that we have so much more information than they do. I don’t know if it’s a generational thing, that we’re just better informed because we have better educations or the Internet to keep growing our minds. Or that, in this generation, a lot of us have a belief in a different kind of psychological and spiritual life, one of continuing growth and development.”

What a brilliant, enlightened theory to state! I completely agree with every word.

I love my mother, I do, but I have felt for some time that I have grown spiritually, intellectually, psychologically, emotionally, the entire gambit of beneficial evolvement, compared to the place where she is.

Once, this bothered me because after all, she’s my mother, right? I thought she should be wiser than me as she is older, has had different experiences that caused me to admire her, feel in awe of her when I was a child.

Now, it is what it is. I no longer concern myself with whether she is proud of me or not. I’m proud of me and I don’t live up to anyone’s idealized expectations of me because this is my life and I will emphatically do whatever I want to do with it.

I’m resistant to advice, obstinate because noone knows me like I know me. Noone knows what’s good for me, what is beneficial to my own growth but me.

So, our conversations are light and I take the back seat in them and just listen to her discuss what she considers important to her. I really don’t mind. In fact, I enjoy listening to her as she does has wisdom to impart and I appreciate it.

I confronted her years ago regarding her sometimes snide, sarcastic tone by firmly declaring…”if you’re going to treat me with unjustified disrespect, treat me with inconsideration….then I can no longer communicate with you. I’ve had enough!” I said bye and then lowered the phone receiver back to it’s cradle.

I WAS done. She called me a few days later and sincerely apologized. I quickly accepted it, ending her misery, and we became closer than we were before. She doesn’t use that “tone” with me any longer. Nope.

But if she wouldn’t have apologized, sought to repair the damage she caused…..I would have loved her from a distance.

I accept my mother the way she is and she has finally accepted me the way I am.

I’m serious regarding not allowing anyone in my life, whether they are family, friends, acquaintances or lovers who doesn’t treat me with the same respect, appreciation, consideration, kindness that I gleefully give to them.

Reciprocity is the golden word for me and I’m not dismissing it’s value ever again.

Thank you, lovely Kathleen, for again sharing your profound thoughts with us. Gets me energized, motivated and eager for more inspiration!

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 2:37pm

Matt,
I still think that my mother gets the “mother of all mother awards”. Can you imagine how much nastier/evil your mother would have been confined to a wheelchair?
I just remembered that my 30 year old daughter, when she was 16 she said to me, “you don’t really know me at all mum”. I wondered what she meant at the time, but it was from that point on that her behaviour and abuse toward me got worse and worse. All the nasty, evil, degrading and humiliating things she said to me in front of people were so hurtful. Yet I blamed myself! I gave her 15 thousand dollars once, when I really couldn’t afford it, and she immediately went to my mothers and conspired with her to make me look crazy, then cut me off and went travelling overseas first class.
Once I said to her, when she was complaining, ” I love you, and you know I would die for you “. She looked at me and said “why do you always have to wreck everything!” And stormed off. That was 15 years ago!
It took me all this time to work it out. But I still feeel a lot of fear around the whole issue.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 3:17pm

“It also brought me out of denial, and now I am dealing with the anger of her narcissism.”

You took a huge step by contacting your Mom yesterday, and I can tell that you are still reeling from it emotionally today. It is OK!

Even though your anger is justified, PLEASE DO NOT ACT OUT OF ANGER.

You do not have to do anything right now. You did it all yesterday.

Please do not sabotage yourself by acting out of anger and giving ultimatums where the outcome could be the finality of never contacting each other again.

Give yourself the luxury of leaving the door open for yourself, so you can contact her in the future if you want to. And you probably will.

The reason I responded to your situation is because I could see between the lines of your posts that you really want a relationship with your Mom. And you said your Mom was trying, too. When Mother and daughter are both trying there is always hope.

I want to show you what I am seeing from you online:

1. THIS AFTERNOON you posted: “I plan to tell her in an e-mail that until she is willing to listen and really hear my feelings, we have nothing to say to each other.” (If this is how you really feel, you would have told her yesterday, and you did not.)

2. LAST NIGHT you posted: “I always miss her when I cut her out of my life.”

3, LAST NIGHT you posted: “I couldn’t even tell you what I want from her. I guess I just want to be able to be myself and have her be herself, too.”

The posts between yesterday and today look like they were written by 2 different women. Your emotions are all over the place right now. It is OK! Just let yourself calm down a bit.

P.S. I don’t know you Stargazer, and I don’t know the intimate details of your relationship between you and your Mom. If you don’t take anything else from this post, please do NOT act out in anger. Nothing healthy or constructive ever comes from it…..And ultimatums never work.

Monday, 11 May 2009 @ 8:17pm

mo152 says:

Hello, I have been reading comments on the various threads of this blog for over a week now and find some of the stories fascinating. My friend (not sure if he is a true narcissist or sociopath, but certainly has tendencies) breezed into my life on a chance meeting six years ago. I was married and so was he – and feel like he targeted me somehow, as if I was “safe,”just from the way things happened. Once the relationship started, it become very intense very quickly even though we live in different towns.

The first year was wonderful. I was head over heels and could not get enough of him. I was going to change my life for this man but soon the red flags began to show up; but at first I denied them. He would promise to visit me or do something together and then would sometimes cancel at the last minute. He would tell me things that I later found out were lies. Like the time he said he was going to a therapist but made the whole story up. When I confronted him about the lies, he acted hurt or tried to make me think I was crazy. I started thinking maybe something was indeed wrong with ME… I kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. I became obsessed and was not myself.

So I tried pulling away and told him I couldn’t do this anymore. He would respect my wishes for a while then would call and beg to be in contact again. He would then pull me in with long talks, romantic poems, music, flowers, then he would turn on me and say I expected too much from him!

When we would go out, I would notice him staring and sometimes flirting with other women when he was with me. It was subtle but still I couldn’t miss it. He would also strike up conversations with complete strangers and become so obsessed with them that he would almost forget I was there

He would also “slip” and let me know that other women from his past were in touch with him occasionally.

Then it became weirder. He gave me the password to his email and cell phone accounts, supposedly so I could look at a message from one of his kids or see how many minutes we had talked… and we talked a lot! I didn’t think anything of it at the time, but when the relationship began to unravel later, I had the tools to check on him… and discovered he had not changed his passwords. Hmm.

Even after he separated from his wife, he would still check in with her by phone when he was with me and at times would spend over an hour with her on the phone at bedtime! If I became upset about this, he would seem puzzled, almost cold, and would comment very little. He continued to do this even though it was so blatant and bothered me. Once we went to a casino and he excused himself to go to the men’s room. We were with another couple and were all standing there waiting for him. After he had been gone 10-15 minutes, the other gal and I decided to go to the ladies’ room. We saw him down the hall talking on the phone! Again, I got upset and he told me I ruined his evening!

By this time I was not myself at all. I was separated from my husband and although I had hoped to be with this man, I found that I was often miserable, depressed, and suspicious because of his occasional strange behavior… but his good qualities seemed to outweigh the bad so I hung in there. It had now been three years and he said we would soon be together forever. Part of me was certain this would work out.

One weekend he had scheduled a trip to see me and I called to ask a few questions about a certain food he liked. He answered the phone and immediately sounded funny. I could tell someone was there. He asked if he could call me right back. Well, it was two hours before he did. When I asked if someone had been there, he said I was crazy, that no one was there. He sent an email later saying I should apologize to him for being so suspicious. Again I thought I was the crazy one!

Things went along for a couple of months but I sensed something had changed. Again we were meeting for a long weekend but his personality was different than ever before. He seemed crass, kind of edgy, stressed.. but I passed it off as work-related. But there really was someone else he was seeing.

Now that I think back on it, he set me up to find out about in a very cruel way. She was texting him and he put his phone in his jacket then draped it around the table where I was putting on make up. I heard the beeps. When I confronted him and asked for the truth, he packed his things and stormed out.

I didn’t hear from him for two months. When I did hear from him, he sobbed uncontrollably and asked for my forgiveness, saying it was a fling and would never happen again. He degraded her, saying she was from a poor background, uneducated, etc. He begged me to take him back and asked me to go on vacation with him the following month. Stupidly, I did. We had a great time – until we returned from dinner one evening. The message light on the hotel phone was flashing. There was a message from his (ex) wife, saying she was lonely and calling him “Honey.” I was out of my head at this point and totally lost it, cried, and told him I didn’t understand why he still had that kind of relationship with his ex. I cried myself to sleep. I was so mad at myself for putting up with this.

The next morning he played the victim.. said I was disrespectful and degrading and we should end our trip a day early. We could not get a flight back so we stayed on as planned. Our last night he said he was going down the hall to get a soft drink out of the machine. He was gone over 15 minutes! When he finally returned he had a funny look on his face. Then he told a story about having to go to the front desk to get change for the machine. But I really figured he was on the phone with someone.

Later I found out he called the girl with whom he had the “fling.” Turns out she was very much still in his life, too, although at the time I wasn’t sure and could not prove it. Just a gut feeling. After a very bumpy couple of months, I finally ended the relationship. That was three years ago.

Fast forward to today. We have remained in contact and have even seen each other occasionally at business meetings. Ever so slowly we have evolved into being “friends” but there is no denying the chemistry is still there. If I compartmentalize I can handle it, but if my emotions take over it’s very difficult. He can be very sweet, charming, and is a lot of fun to be with, yet I would never trust him (who would?).. yet I find myself feeling jealous of the other women he is spending time with.

In the last three years, he dumped the “fling” girlfriend for about a year while he carried on with an old friend of his ex- wife’s. When that gal had enough of his shenanigans, she broke it off, so he went back to the “fling.” All the while he remains in close contact with his ex-wife. It seems he never ends any relationship!

So what is the diagnosis for him? Is he a narcissist or a sociopath.. or both? I am feeling much stronger these days but not a day goes by I don’t think about him and the effect he has (had) on my life. It’s almost as if I was in a trance. I did things that I would NEVER consider doing now.

Someday I will be healed, but I know in order to fully heal there should be No Contact. So far I have not been successful with No Contact. Ugh.

Tuesday, 12 May 2009 @ 11:10pm

mo152:

My stomach turned as I read parts of your post, because it reminded me so much of my ex-boyfriend, who was a sociopath.

I am not a psychiatrist, but a lot of sociopaths have narcissistic tendencies. So, he is probably a little bit of both.

It does not really matter what the diagnosis is, he is TOXIC, BAD NEWS!

GET AWAY ASAP!

ESTABLISH NO CONTACT!

P.S. You already have 6? years invested with this person? That is way too long already. Hopefully, you are not in love with him or anything. Get away!

Tuesday, 12 May 2009 @ 11:33pm

Unfortunately I was in love with him and probably part of me still is. That’s the strange part that I cannot understand. Even though I am aware of the toxic aspects to him, he has a side of him that seems so normal. He’s never yelled, cursed me, or laid a hand on me. But I know that it was emotional abuse – which can be just as bad – and some of it was very subtle. It does make you feel that you are the one losing it!

Last month I saw him at a business meeting after not seeing him for a while. At first I thought he seemed better – calmer – and we did some sightseeing afterwards with a group of colleagues. That evening he asked me to meet him downstairs in the lounge for a drink. What the heck, I said yes and went to the lounge at the time he suggested. Well, you guessed it! He showed up about 45 minutes late!
This time I said nothing (what is the point?) but told myself I absolutely could not be friends with this person. No doubt he was on the —- phone again!

Unfortunately I will see him at another meeting before the end of the year. I cannot change jobs right now so this twice a year contact will continue to occur until one of us does change jobs. (That is how we met). I have to change the way I relate when I do see him. Otherwise I will not respect myself. The last time it took me a week to get over seeing him again.. it is very difficult.

Tuesday, 12 May 2009 @ 11:50pm

Yikes!! “He showed up about 45 minutes late!” Mine was famous for that, too!! My stomach is turning again.

I know how difficult it is. It took me years to get away from my sociopath boyfriend. And I knew he was not good for me for about the last 5 years of the relationship.

So, now you only see him twice a year? That is good. No more contact than that and you should be fine.

Hopefully, you can phase him out for good eventually.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 12:10am

Rosa,

Thank you for your comments. Did you finally cut off all contact with your ex boyfriend? How many years did you know him?

I agree that it is very hard to finally close that door… a part of the pattern is the “victim” is still mesmerized in a way and wants the contact. It’s been amazing to me what I put up with in the relationship that I would not put up with from others. It’s just something about him. Fortunately I think I am finally past being mesmerized by this man and am returning to reality. Time and distance do help. Obviously it would be easier if I didn’t have to see him at all.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 7:20am

Yes, I absolutely cut off all contact with him. By the end, I could not get away fast enough, and I never wanted to see him again. And I have not.

But, I did go through that period where I just kept going back for more abuse. I could not help myself. I hate that part of my life. But, at the same time, that is how I learned. And I have not allowed myself to get into another situation like that since.

I knew him for about 8 years.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 8:55am

A good starting place for you is to remember that all sociopaths are narcissists but all narcissists are not sociopaths.

There is an awful lot in your story that I had in my story. That most of us on this site have had in our stories. The initial intensity which we mistake for intimacy. The manipulation of us with lies. The playing off of us various partners. The cheating. The never-ending presence of his ex. The tossing you a crumb to keep you hanging on just when you are ready to walk. The crazy-making behavior. And of course, everybody’s personal favorite, the pity play.

Personally, I believe you’e got an S on your hands. That said, it really doesn’t matter what he is at the end of the day. Cluster-Bs are horrors to be around and destructive to anybody who gets involved with them.

You say you are still in love with him. I suspect what you are in love with is the illusion you fell in love with up front. Problem is, that illusion doesn’t exist. What you have on your hands is the real him. I wasted the better part of a year trying to win back that wonderful man I fell in love with, only to realize that he never existed.

I”ve been 6 months NC. I have to admit, there are still days I want to engage him. Not because I miss his attention, but because I want to make him hurt, the same way he hurt me. Problem is, these creatures can’t be hurt.

Save yourself and get out now. You’ve wasted 6 years. Don’t waste another minute of your life.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 8:57am

mo152

“Last month, I saw him at a business meeting after not seeing him for a while. At first, he seemed better-calmer….

They are always on their best behavior when they have not seen you in a while. But, as you are learning, it NEVER lasts. And they will never be “better”. That is the vicious cycle that you will be stuck in forever if you do not get out.

It is great that you are recognizing all of the red flags.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 9:14am

“It’s been amazing to me what I put up with in the relationship that I would not put up with from others. There’s just something about him.”

I KNOW!! I can totally relate to THAT!!

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 9:22am

mo152, welcome to LoveFraud. Unfortunately, it sounds like you’re one of it. And it really doesn’t matter what you’re friend’s diagnosis is. What matters is you. Counting up your losses, for one thing. And considering your attachment to this man, despite what you’ve endured with him.

Sometimes, rather than name other people sociopaths, we talk about these relationships as sociopathic. That is, a relationship with someone who is using us and really doesn’t care about our losses or our feelings. Our part of it is that somehow our common sense and natural self-protective mechanisms get overridden, and we become attached or even addicted to these people, even when we know our lives would be better if we could just shoo them out of our hearts.

As you know, if you’ve been reading here for a while, your story has lots of the familiar components, on his side and yours. Congratulations to you for adding up his untrustworthy and hurtful behaviors and deciding that the relationship wasn’t working for you.

But you still feel chemistry, still attracted and still attached in some way. And that means all the dominoes haven’t fallen yet. You may not be clearly seeing what you invested in this relationship and what you got back for it. Or you may be seeing it at an intellectual level, but it hasn’t worked its way down to emotional knowledge that this person is not only untrustworthy and hurtful to you, but dangerous. We tend to have an overinflated sense of how much we can endure and just move on. At some point, the bill comes due. It is why every book about sociopaths, users or losers gives very strong advice about getting out of these relationships as early as you can.

It sounds like you’ve extricated yourself, but you’re still vulnerable the couple of times a year when you see him. It might be a good idea to think about just saying no to him. Period. It doesn’t matter if he “seems better” at one time or another. Whatever you want to name him, there is something wrong with the way he runs relationships. You know that. And this is not going to change.

If you imagine it might — that the whole thing is about stress, bad family background, needy “other women” or some other explanation he might have — and that it all might clear up some day, here’s what that would look like, if it did. He would be genuinely horrified by his own behavior. He would make sincere efforts to make amends. He would assume you rightfully would want nothing to do with him. And he would be actively working on himself — without leaning on relationships with women — to make himself a more honest and ethical person.

Sound likely? Well, every person on LoveFraud can tell you that it isn’t. His behavior will always be someone else’s fault. He will always have excuses for actions that are harmful to someone else. And when backed into a corner, he will always attack without any limits or scruples.

What happens to you in this is totally up to you. If you are in any way addicted to the “good guy” front he once showed you, then you’re going to have to handle it the way you would any other addiction. Stay away no matter what the temptation. (We call it “no contact.”) Work on figuring out what’s wrong with you that something in you isn’t “getting it” that this is a bad guy who has repeatedly hurt you and will undoubtedly hurt you again if you give him the opportunity. And start thinking about what you need to do to love yourself more and take care of yourself better.

You sound like a smart and competent person. Someone who handles responsibility well, and sees through most of life’s circumstances. That’s another thing you have in common with the rest of us. We’re good at just about everything except for a few little quirks — like too much tolerance for pain, too much willingness to overlook bad behavior, and too much confidence that we can fix people.

If you haven’t read “Women Who Love Sociopaths” yet, I highly recommend it. You can buy it here on LoveFraud. It is the only research that has ever been done on the victim’s side of these relationships. What we’re like. How we get involved, and the way the relationship develops. The book will make you feel good about yourself (because we are generally pretty wonderful people), and it will also open your eyes to the common patterns of sociopathic relationships.

Fortunately, it sounds like you haven’t lost a lot of money to this guy, though you did walk away from a marriage. It doesn’t sound like he damaged your career either. Thank heavens.

So theoretically, he could just be a relationship addict and a pathological liar. In the spectrum of what we deal with here, that’s relatively small potatoes. But it doesn’t mean that it didn’t hurt you. The worst impact of these people isn’t financial, legal, family or work-related damage, though that can be bad enough. It’s what they do to our relationship with ourselves. What we believe about ourselves. Whether we can trust ourselves anymore. Whether we really believe in love anymore.

You may ultimately get to the point where you can say, he’s just a creep and walk away. Really be finished with him. And that would be good. Healthy. But it doesn’t sound like you’re there yet.

I hope I haven’t seemed too blunt or opinionated here. Getting over these people tends to involve a lot of different states of mind, as we get more realistic about what we’re dealing with.

Please keep posting. There are a lot of good people here with similar experiences. Good luck with really getting him out of your life and your heart.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 9:34am

IT says:

I still after one year NC remember the crumbs of attention . I still Love him! I don’t hold him responsible for his behavior! But TODD had a very important point that makes a lot of sence. He had a Choice just like I had a choice. I chose to give everything to my own demise for him , almost to the point of being disowned by my family! He gave up nothing! USE,Abuse,Neglect,steal,Hurt,degrade,and Belittle . Oh I got your back. With friends like that who needs an enemy?
And I still Love Him? But all that is in my power to do is to pray for him. From Far away!

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 9:41am

mo152, Kathleen, among others has given EXCELLENT advice. One thing if I may add that I am harping on lately is that we must all work on setting strong boundaries- what you will and will not accept. Boundaries have to be studied in advance so that your knee jerk reaction to abuse or just plain ole bad manners will be one of protecting YOU.

When you said you had to wait 45 min. for him to meet you-
I would encourage you to NEVER wait on anyone being so rude and insensitive to your valuable time again. EVEN IF you had absolutely nothing to do, for the sheer principle , I would pay my tab and walk politely out of the bar. NO drama needed, if asked say, I waited several minutes but could not wait any longer so I had to leave. NO explanation needed from either party. He disrespected you and thats it.

I constantly re evaluate and tweek my boundaries as new situations arise. WHen you become accustomed to standing by those boundaries, giving yourself permission to defend yourself without guilt ,you gain so much self respect for yourself in the process. It gets easier as you continue to practice self preservation.
IF you dont COMMAND RESPECT from others , YOU WILL NOT GET RESPECT.
There are non aggressive ways to accomplish standing up for yourself such as the above scenerio. Its one of the hardest things for me to always know how to re act, I often find myself after the fact thinking, how could I have handled this better? Buts thats ok, we get wiser as we go, but disrespect should ALWAYS be defended and not tolerated.
THanks for sharing with us, your experiences resonate with us on many levels! Please post often, xoxo.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 11:14am

mo152… This is a place to find validation and sort through the pieces of your experience. I read some of the responses to your letter above, and concur that you are in the right place. I was able to end the relationship with the sociopath in my life a month ago today. The first three weeks were the hardest – the grief was tormenting. Now it has slowly gotten more manageable, however I am sure it will never completely go away. What I had to face was that what I thought our relationship was had been an illusion for 42 years! We were together for 24 years, and apart 17 years. We had 2 children together. Even during the 17 years apart (I had remarried and divorced during those years), I never got over him. He was with me in my thoughts daily. I now realize that I was trauma-bonded to him. I went to Wellspring (an in-patient recovery center) in 1996, and was told that my ex is a Sociopath. I got it in my head, but it didn’t drop to my heart until a month ago. About 6 months ago, we got back together after both of us had gotten remarried and divorced. The whole time I was with him for these 5 months, I kept having red flags – I journaled about them and kept one eye open while we were together, and finally reached the point where I wasn’t willing to do it any longer. I ended it, and my grief in doing so was for the lie I had been living for the past 42 years. We had so many memories together that were precious to me. There were just enough good times to confuse me. I am a very forgiving and compassionate person and kept thinking he was like this because he had alcoholic parents, and he was the adult child of alcoholics and that was why he was the way he was. Of course, looking back, there were more red flags than Cheerios in a box of cereal. I didn’t want to see them, because I needed him too much – to complete me. He was like a powerful drug to me, and it was awful and wonderful. I am just so greatful to be free of him in my head and in my heart. I do not love him, but I loved what I thought he was for so many years. We have 2 children together, and I have wanted to “get him out of them” – I obviously have some more work to do with where to put the pieces.
Kathleen, you stated that they are “irreparably ill”. A Psychiatrist told me a few weeks ago that they are finding new evidence that they have different wiring in their brain. Whatever it is, I don’t plan on spending much time figuring it out. I’ve decided that I want to spend the rest of my time here on earth enjoying the small things – like the songs of the birds chirping outside my window as I write, and the smell of the Lilacs in the wind when I walk. You are walking toward the light, mo152, and you have people on this site who love and understand you and will companion you to a better place within yourself and your world. God Bless You!

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 11:43am

mo152 ,please read about trauma bonds, and stockholm syndrome- you can google them. Sheds light on why we have tolerated the intolerable.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 11:57am

Wow, what great posts! Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, stories, and the vote of confidence that I can completely extricate myself from this relationship. There is hope out there, since some of you seem to be well on the path to recovery! For those who are still healing, your support will likely make a big difference. Could even save a life.

Fortunately, my relationship never involved money, although I recall that originally he commented that he thought I was well connected in society. When I told him I was good ole “middle class,” he continued to pursue me anyway. However, I noticed he would talk about money sometimes and seemed to know exactly the value of his wife’s assets, even though they supposedly kept their finances separate. She was from a wealthy family and as far as I know, he may still inherit her assets even though they are now divorced. She has no one else to leave her money to.

What has happened over the last few years since our “romantic” relationship unraveled is regular contact almost always initiated by him (mostly emails, occasionally phone calls, and of course the business meetings). Those meetings are what mainly keeps our ties going. Since I no longer see him very often, I have told myself that I could handle being his friend. Who am I kidding?

At a couple of meetings in the last two years he and I ended up being with each other physically after being around each other for a couple of days. The sexual tension was almost unbearable for me. Then the next day I would regret it, of course. All this happened while he was supposedly committed to the girlfriend that ended our relationship! I am sick to my stomach thinking about it. I don’t know why I did this. Yes I have been tested twice.. thank goodness I am fine.

Of course, for all these years he has been a great listener, conversationalist, is very funny, witty, and has kept up with what is going on in my life. His memory is amazing, also. He has always made me feel like our relationship is unique, says there will never be another love like ours, and brings up things we have said or done in the past. He sends flowers or gifts on special occasions also. Yet he has not once asked me to resume the original type of relationship. Not that I would.. He even told me last time I saw him how much he loves me but he is probably telling his girlfriend and his ex wife that, too. It’s always been more about words.. obviously his actions speak very loudly. There’s a real disconnect when I look at him then remember some of the things he has done. It does not seem like it could be the same person!

He is very much a loner, has few friends that he keeps up with, and then there are his children. Although he claims to care for them (three grown children) he will go several years at a time without seeing them. They are from his first marriage that he left when they were very young. The children all live in other areas of the country, but I always found it odd that he did not seem to WANT to see them. Or maybe they don’t care to see him, either.. who knows? Yet he faithfully remembers their birthdays, sends gifts on holidays. But if they did not contact him on Father’s Day, Christmas, or his birthday, he would feel sorry for himself and would seem surprised that he didn’t hear anything.

Kathleen.. your post hit the nail on the head.. . this kind of man is very likely a relationship addict. One woman is never enough! There always has to be the sneak around.. calling or emailing someone else. The thrill of keeping secrets or fooling someone. And he would always comment how great it was in the “beginning” of relationships and how that never lasted.

His life pattern: two failed marriages (that I know of), and a long list of girlfriends of relatively short duration. He doesn’t really have “flings” but intense relationships of several years that usually unravel and end badly. Usually he is the one who finally moves on, but he never ends one relationship before he starts another. After the woman who is left gets past her anger she is willing to take him back or just be his “friend.” Like me! I was even aware of one woman from his past who was still contacting him after 16 years and asking him to come visit her. She was in a helping profession and fit the profile perfectly. Finally she found someone else and got married.

Another pattern is his relationships are with women who are not 100% available. They are either married, live far away, have young children (he doesn’t like children), are not mentally balanced, or are otherwise forbidden like the wife’s friend. This must be a built in safety net for him, as he never has to fully commit to anyone! He can have his cake and eat it too. He claims to want a long term partner and happy marriage but has no idea how to do that or what that is.

A few years ago when he was separated from his wife and started the relationship with her childhood friend, I remember him telling me about the situation during a phone conversation. He had not called for many weeks but called that day and brought it up. After gettng past the initial hurt of him telling me about this person, I later changed roles and became like a counselor as he told me his “tale of woe.”

He said he had a lot in common with this woman and wanted to start seeing her, but his wife was having a big problem with it. They had lived apart for a couple of years so he thought it was strange that his wife would be so upset. I remember that I warned him… foolishly thinking I could make him see that the circumstances of this triangle would only end in disaster. For some reason his divorce was not proceeding, although he said he wanted one.

Months went by. Instead of pushing for a divorce, he remained legally married but continued the relationship with his wife’s friend. They had to “sneak around” so his wife wouldn’t find out, but of course she did, anyway. Finally the friend said she had had enough and ended it, after his wife revealed that he was still sleeping with her! What drama!

Amazingly, he told me he admired this woman for sticking to her guns and cutting off all contact with him. I’m sure he probably tried to stay in touch, but in this case he failed. Good for her! Obviously she is better off and not suffering as many have. Finally, his wife filed for divorce from him after suffering such indignity. The divorce was finalized a year ago but they are still in close touch and I imagine he even has things at her house. She is not a well person and is dependent on him for errands and take care of things at the house they shared.

Knowing about this situation I’ve just described was finally a turning point for me.. when I finally realized how sick our connection and relationship had become. It really was all about him.. and I let it be that way. By comparison my life was pretty normal and I didn’t have the continuing drama. He seemed to thrive on the drama yet he couldn’t see that he was the CAUSE of it! In short, I had given and given until I could give no more. I gave up waiting, hoping and trying to fix this man. I was a shell of a person and had such low self-esteem.

Slowly but surely, I think I am coming out of this fog but it has been very difficult. I allowed this relationship to change me forever… I learned a lot of hard lessons. All I can do is keep my distance as much as possible at the meetings and focus on the wholesome and normal things in my life, which is really pretty full with family, friends, work. There is just no other love interest right now, and I do wish I had that. Most of my friends and family do not fully know what I have been through, as I stopped talking about him a couple of years ago.

I’m so glad to have found this blog to read and learn of others’ experiences. You all sound like caring and intelligent people who are all trying to find a better life and help others along the way.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 12:44pm

Dear mol52:

Reading your posts makes me almost have chills as it has so many similarities to my 7 year relationship – long distance at that – with the man I know. And I’ve been confused, always looking back at the fun times we shared and the
seemingly intimate talks – the way he will remember and ask about my kids and how he has really gotten to know me, the dreams we’ve shared even down to how great it would have been to have a child together. But then I really look at the reality and though I haven’t been subjected to actual proof of other women, it starts to get that icky feeling you get deep down when he doesn’t call when he was going to, doesn’t show up, doesn’t (in my case) come through
on that promise to pay you back, and then even acts like a complete weirdo on the phone the next time he calls – using sexual humor and being kind of disrespectful in the way he talks to you – all the while you’re thinking – who is
this person? It can’t be the same person I had these ‘other’ conversations with, the one who seems so intelligent, funny and caring – self-deprecating and insightful, blah blah blah. And there have been times when he’s here when he seems relaxed, you’re having a good time with him – he’s said he’s going to spend rest of the day with you and whoops…there goes that phone of his, a conversation ensues and what do you know, it’s the district manager or fill in the
blank – but in my case, I don’t suspect it’s a particular woman – he just seems to use that phone like his own prop to come up with an excuse to leave or to set the stage for asking for money or whatever – sometimes I’ve wanted to even go over and
take the phone to see if there is someone even on the line!

Anyway, that’s been my craziness and of course there’s more but I’ll just end on this note…He called Mother’s Day, sounded like the kind person I’ve ‘loved’, asked what the kids were doing with me (kids are grown…we ended up not doing anything, I ended up in my studio working on project for my daughter’s wedding…) and said he’d be able to come up day after for several days and then didn’t call back until late the next day with excuse and now haven’t heard from him. He is Kryptonite for my otherwise healthy but probably fairly boring life, one that I’m in process of revamping and making more fun and fulfilling for myself. I won’t call him, I’m reading alot of these posts and worry a bit
that I’m getting too absorbed in them but however I do it, I just want to make myself see how perverted it’s been to prolong this torture! And none of you commented on it, but I had mentioned my sister who has Lou Gehrig’s Disease
and is almost now completely immobilized – I don’t tell you for sympathy but to tell you how inspiring she is to all of us who know and love her – she has been an intelligent and capable woman, too caring of charismatic, cheating
men in her own past, caring of our mother (who died this past Sept.) who was worthy of love and caring but who had complicated relationships with men and with her children, etc. etc. My sister is now on her way out and inspiring
others with her continued strength and humor in the midst of her own tragic circumstance. And her situation and handling of it makes me feel even more like I, or anyone who knows her has even more of a responsibility to seize
their own lives with renewed gratitude and resolve to live a happy life with all their faculties and passion – good passion, not lustful or tawdry – and to live with grace and dignity now – and not later.

One last thing, my friend has always used the phrase that I’ve ‘always been in his corner’ and how he appreciates that as he has few friends. I think there is a reason for that, there is a reason my daughter won’t allow him to be at
her wedding, there is a reason I no longer want to be ‘in his corner’ though I feel I still love him – I’m going to feel bad possibly for even posting this as it feels like emotional infidelity or I fear in a way that he may even see this
-isn’t it bizarre how your thinking gets so skewed). And bad boys and girls do end up in a corner, usually by themselves.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 1:48pm

Dear Persephone,

Thank you for such an inspiring and heartfelt post. My sympathy to you regarding your sister. She sounds like an amazing person. What she is going through does put things into perspective. Truly what goes around comes around.

On the subject of your “now you see him, now you don’t” friend, I can very much identify with how you are feeling and certainly understand the push-pull dynamic of these strange relationships.

When you look back over the seven years of knowing him, there were probably so many things that registered as strange or uncommon about him, but those “flags” were pushed aside in favor of the “intimacy” and the rush that comes with someone paying attention to you with an intensity only a S or N can provide. It’s as if they are filling an empty vessel (their victims) in order to be rid of themselves for a while.

They also love being with those who are successful or very well-liked, as it reflects back on them. They truly do absorb the characteristics and good qualities of whoever they are spending time with. Maybe that’s why I thought he was really a good person at times (ha). Seriously, what I noticed is if I was feeling very up and happy about life, he would love it because it made him feel pumped him up. If I was down, he would listen and try to empathize, but it seemed to make him uncomfortable. If he truly didn’t know how to be empathetic, then showing empathy would just be an act.

Once I asked him what the color of his first wife’s eyes were and he didn’t even know. This is a person he was married to for 9 years and had two children with. I thought that was telling. Also, one of his best features is his expressive eyes. But looking into those same eyes while close up was like looking into the eyes of a reptile. I noticed this at first but kept thinking I was imagining things. Until I read about others who had a similar experience.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 2:10pm

OMG, here we go again. A lady from the court called as I had left a voice mail for her from last week when I had questions on the incorrigibile petition.

Evidentaly mentioning that I was refered to file through his psyciatrist WAS THE WRONG THING TO SAY. If the court deems his issues to be mental health then he will NOT be considered incorrigible and will be refered RIGHT back to the same facility he goes to NOW for counsceling.

I said that when I originaly brought him to this facility to begin with it wasn’t for depression it was for the issues of behavior at home and school.

I swear to GOD no matter where I turn to they want to refer me right back to RIVERWOOD the place he is currently going for help. And RIVERWOOD in turn is refering me to the courts……This has been going on for MONTHS, every phone call I have made to any agency. Try Riverwood.

WHAT is WRONG with this picture?

The school doesn’t want to deal with my kid either. This lady asked why they are allowing him to fail in school and why the school isn’t giving him more testing….? Good question.
I had to keep on them weekly to get the test he had done last year.

I am loosing hope here….

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 2:12pm

My x n/p had a strange way of making me feel incredibly cared about and like he was so into my life BUt at the same time equally so self absorbed, like I was only a side kick- I was Robin to his Batman. I cant figure out how I could of felt at times so IMPORTANT to him by him pretending to be committed to me, BUt in most instances, my wishes/desires/feeling were nothing to him. He was always star of the show- even angered him if someone gave me a beautiful compliment. He would either walk away with disgusted look on his face- OR ignore it to start talkin about him again. The relationship definately reeked of split personality, but mostly the dominate personality was pure premeditated evil.
Mine also held on to old relationships (called supply) to feed his insatiable EGO. He could never get enuf of himself- (ENOUGH about u-Lets talk about me )

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 2:18pm

Witsend just read this- dont give up, talk to another person if you need to. like you said, the priority here is incorrigible behavior, if the mental health facility is refering you to courts ,then they have dismissed him and found no mental health issue-
probally better, i just talked to my atty. (also friend) about my son, he says he can get judge to order some mental health testing for him. (due to fact that my son calls in daily for mandatory drug/alcohol testing from DUI charge and he could easily while in the system be made to do additional testing. I will probally persue this. try not to panic- it aint over till its over. I dont beleive they can refuse help if he has no more treatments scheduled at mental health center.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 2:26pm

Ad Nauseum…Isn’t it amazing how similar our stories are? I was told these men are from the Cookie Cutter Messiah School. mo152, don’t be surprised if you waffle back and forth between denial and acceptance. It’s all part of the grief process. I had such a fear of abandonment (interesting I picked a man who was totally unavailable, except for when he was, and then did he shower me with attention and compliments. I was the best everything to him. I loved the adulation and especially feeling so special. I found out he sent the same poem he wrote to 3 different women, and they all thought they were the only ones getting it. Gag!! It just feels so damn good to be free of him, especially emotionally. Please, mo152, know you are in a safe place surrounded by people who have been there. We are all in different levels of recovery and healing.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 2:36pm

Thank you all so much. I feel stronger today (but emotionally drained, too). Recovery and healing is hard work. One step forward, two steps back. Had I known then what I know now, but we can’t look back, right? Have to keep marching forward to see where that leads.

Just amazing how they (the S/N types) flit from relationship to relationship and never seem to suffer angst or guilt. We are the ones who question ourselves and take on the shame and guilt they offloaded. I am still feeling ill thinking of the things I did for this man. I was not myself!

Interesting, he always acted like these triangular “situations” just happened to him by chance. But he is such a meticulous planner when it comes to his self-centered existence that I knew everything he did or said was calculated to achieve a certain result, including dating his wife’s friend. That was no “accident.” He is too smart and knew the havoc dating the friend would cause. But he also probably banked on the fact that his wife would finally file for divorce. He could then escape being the “bad guy” who filed.

Likewise, the current girlfriend was chosen because she is a convenient fallback when he wants company. But because she has two small children and related responsibilities at home, he doesn’t have to be with her all the time. She can’t move in with him nor would he move in with her. Therefore the relationship will remain static until he gets bored and finds something else.

When I’ve seen him the last few meetings he always makes a point to tell me what a “boring” conversationalist his girlfriend is and how there is no “challenge” in their relationship because she is not educated. I became irritated and replied that he shouldn’t be seeing her if he is going to constantly degrade her to another. That just rolled off his back. Disgusting.

I see the patterns so clearly now that I am not with him. What in the world was I thinking for those years?

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 3:15pm

Kathleen wrote…..

“The book will make you feel good about yourself (because we are generally pretty wonderful people), and it will also open your eyes to the common patterns of sociopathic relationships.”

We are always pretty wonderful people. I think you all are AWESOME. I think I am awesome and I tell folks repeatedly how awesome I believe I am…….haha…jk.

We just gotta work on those quirks you discuss. Mine are to not project my good qualities, good character traits onto others, especially the men I mingle with.

They aren’t me and I should not expect them to be me. It is naive, foolish and arrogant behavior. I’m no Saint but I am a super gal with oodles of goodness to share with the right people.

Oh, yeah……

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 3:26pm

witsend: I wish I had some insight on your situation but I don’t totally understand so will let others respond – just breathe and stay centered each time you have to deal with
these people – try to stay somewhat upbeat so you will eventually reach that one person in the system who will be your ally and hold on to that thought that there IS that person out there.

I just logged back on to say the good news about my sister is that she ended up with a man who is tried and true – and who is standing by her and all of our family as her rock. He’s a good man and
loves her till the end and she’s aware of that and loves him too. I’m so glad she ended up with someone who totally appreciates what a wonderful person she is and wish that for all of us here.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 3:30pm

hey guys, haven’t blogged in weeks. Nocontact is going alright except yest i drove by wwhere the s has a property and saw where he must have put a steel toolbox (his tradmark steel) on her pickup truck and i was furious as he was so cheap with me nothing in 6 years. not a card. Then i thought what kind of woman wants a toolbox on a pickup. Goes to show he doesn’t really like women, can’t tell the difference between a feminine one or a butchy one really. Androgenous types or femeine, no difference but i almost ruined the no contact and called. This happens quite often where i get pissed that he spends money and when i think he deliberately didn’t spend a dime on me(withholding tactic) to make me feel worthless. Glad i didn’t calll today but boy my one gf said i was on amission, cobative with her even, saying how would you feel and wouldn’t you want re venge. These thoughts of revenge i know are normal but they can sure be overpowering. Been going out a bit and lots of guys interested but im so dam caucious and to be honest as i told my shrink the other day, he is still in my head although not as much. I tend to brush off the men, let them give me attention but not showing any real interest and im sure this is part of the process, but i hate to waste anymore of my life on that loser. I’ve even had thoughts of calling him over just to dump him and i know that’s just game playing and revenge but they sure make you want to give them a taste of their own medicine even though i know he will eventually get his own. At least im not missing out on the sex as for the 5 and a half years i was with him he couldn’t perform so nothing lost there. One male friend tried to get me to see that it’s better that he didn’t spend any money on me as then i would feel i owe him and i know i owe nobody less than him so he is right but sometimes i just want to let him know what a moron he is but he wouldn’t care , he would just entertain me, better to show him and move on and be happy but it sure isn’t happening over night. hope everyone is doing good with the n/c thing it can be hard as hell at times. love kindheart

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 4:10pm

I learned something new by reading your posts.

I am going to start taking a much closer look at the men I date and their relationships with their cell phones, and how secretive they are with them.

I did not even know my sociopath boyfriend had a cell phone, but he did. And I have dated others since who could not get through dinner without making or taking a call.

My father was in a profession that required him to answer the phone 24/7, so I always give men lots of space when it comes to their cell phones.

It’s not even the interruption that I mind so much. It is the secrecy.

P.S. I guess we should have gotten our hands on those cell phones early in the relationship. We could have spared ourselves years of abuse.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 5:14pm

I think he is mad at me for not agreeing to him moving in with me several weeks ago – he has called but not come up even though he has said that he would. In some ways, perhaps I would have shown him I did really want to give this relationship a chance – really get to be with him on an in – home, day-to-day basis. We have had several days together at a time and it has been
nice. He’s been struggling in bigger city since he moved back to get a job and car. But I just explained to him I didn’t think it was a good idea – he’d even said in the past that he didn’t have
good luck ever moving into a woman’s place and I agreed. If we ever were to try living together it would have to be on equal terms for it to work – he needs to get his own place, have his
own car again, FIRST. I have too much going on in my life right now with new (first) grandchild, a sister who is terminally ill, a daughter about to be married and trying to stay afloat with
my one job (was laid off other one along with other woman when new owners wanted to work business themselves) as well as being a creative artist. And even if I think I love him, he’s been
so unreliable at times – why would I want to take him on full-time right now. And yet that shows how unavailable I am in a way – I’m still carrying baggage from the days with my second
husband taking me to the emotional and financial cleaners.

I don’t know what it is but now he calls today, knowing this is my last afternoon off and says to me, boy, I could be dead and you wouldn’t call! I did call him two days ago to see when he
was coming up – he called me in the evening in that weird way and said he was coming up and then nothing. So he turns it back on me… And I’m boring you with it here…I know I have to
do No Contact – I even framed something he’d brought up last time and do want him to have it and have some other photos of his he’d brought by – he has seemed like he was making some kind of effort to be more intimate with things like that. But he acts irritated and like this is the major issue between us, that I bring up the past, that I’m petty about him not calling
back and not calling him (I DO call him, I just shouldn’t and don’t want to have to badger him, that doesn’t go down well either so it’s a no-win situation.)

Anyway, I shouldn’t even post this – all my good thoughts, efforts – and he said he would call back by now when I said I was going to go pick up my grandchild and nothing. I’m not as hooked as I sound but I’m whacked out thinking about what his real motives are – and it doesn’t matter, does it.

Sorry for being weak, not a good role model after all. You’re all doing your part, don’t think I’ll post again until I can follow through. Thanks to all .

sabrina
well actually he is still going to see the counscelor at Riverwood. We had an appointment today.
He wasn’t originally brought there for depression, he was brought there for behavior issues. Our relationship going downhill, my inability to effectively parent him etc.
The depression signs I saw were at the end of winter. He started with Riverwood in Sept.
HOWEVER the papertrail shows that mother wanted son refered to pysc for depression…, evaluation, meds were Rx yadda yadda…

He is suppose to have to take a test before the petition would be active. (IF WE GET THAT FAR)
The maizey, something like that? Did your son have to take that?
If he takes the test and depression is evident THEN NO incorrigible petition through the court.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 5:35pm

kindheart: It sounds like you are doing so much better! That is great news! The S I was seeing only lives 2 miles away and sometimes I want to drive by… but I’m afraid he’ll see me, and when I have done it before it just gets me all upset, so I know what you mean. Cool that lots of guys are paying attention to you (even though you may not be ready to go out with anyone). Nobody is paying any attention to me! LOL

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 5:47pm

No, persephone, his motives don’t matter.

Well, they do, in the sense that you can trust that everything he does is for his own benefit. While you’re putting so much energy into thinking about him, he’s putting all his energy into thinking about him too. See something wrong with this picture?

One of the things you’re getting hung up on is responsibilities you have toward him or deals of some sort you made with him. You’re thinking you have to follow through. Guess who benefits from that?

The way out of this particular maze is to stop thinking about him, and spend that energy thinking about you. As was pretty obvious from kindheart’s post above yours, all that thinking about her ex isn’t exactly making her a happy girl. In fact, it’s keeping her involved so deeply that she might as well be living with him.

The trick is to start asking yourself, “What do I want for me?” Or if you’re upset, asking yourself, “What do I want that I’m not getting?” Or possibly, looking around at your own life and seeing what you have to be happy about, and then practicing some gratitude for that.

All of these things are exercises to help us get oriented in owning our own lives.

You are still giving yourself away to this guy. Think of how much of your day has belonged to him, one way or another. Admittedly, we’re kicking an addiction, so we’re going to suffer some withdrawal. But eventually, we have to make an effort to focus elsewhere, if we want to reduce their influence on our lives.

There is nothing more powerful in our lives than where we place our attention. Every spiritual practice, every life coach, every business management seminar, and probably your smart grandmother too says the same thing. What you think about is what you get. If you want to change what you get, think about what you really want. That sets up a natural mechanism in which your interest and the opportunities for happiness that the world provide come together.

The other thing is that we, as human beings, really need a direction in life. Otherwise we start to just feel battered by everything that comes along. While we’re in them, these relationships become the “big thing” in our lives, and that’s the direction of our lives. So we face a challenge afterwards to redirect ourselves. At the simplest level, we can determine to focus on what makes us happy rather than what makes us angry, sad or afraid. We still feel our feelings, and react to them. But we don’t get hung on up angry, sad or afraid stories in our heads. We deal with them and move on to what we really want.

I know I’m preaching here, and I apologize. But this truly is one of the major corners we turn in getting better. Deciding what we want in our heads/hearts/lives and what we don’t, and then giving energy to what we want.

In your case, this guy isn’t giving you anything but grief. You don’t have to keep playing with him. Put his stuff in a box, dump it with someone else, and be done with it. Remove the reasons you need to talk with him. And then cut him out of your life. It is the single, simplest thing to do.

And then you can get on with the very rich, busy life you actually have. Rather than all the swamp gas this character keeps generating.

kindheart, now you know what happens when you drive by his house. You discover something that sets the whole mess in motion again in your head.

If you really want this over, you’re going to need to stop scratching that itch.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 5:50pm

persophone07:

I agree with Kathy. Don’t get hung up on responsibilities you think you have to him.

I had the most miserable two week vacation of my life when I felt “obligated” to follow through on my word and take S on vacation to my family’s villa on Mykonos. He promptly ripped off my neighbor’s villa. And the vacation went downhill from there. And did I mention I paid for everything except one drink?

And don’t think for a minute he appreciated any of it. As a matter of fact, when I went after him for money he owed me, he threw the vacation back in my face saying “and that vacation you insisted I go on, which I couldn’t afford.”

So, no. You have no obligation to this creature. As a matter of fact, when this is over, said and done, you will be thanking your lucky stars that you cut your losses now. Trust me. When I think that I wanted to marry my idiot, I now see that I would have paid big to get rid of him– prenup or no prenup.

I learned the hard way with S that when I started getting bombarded with text messages, not calls, that meant that he was out cheating on me. Call me simple, call me old fashioned, but when I go on a date, a make it a point to turn my cellphone off in front of the other person to make it clear that they are the only person in the room as far as I am concerned.

AFter S, I briefly dated a guy who couldn’t put his i-phone down. One night, over dinner, he continued to surf the web. I finally reached my limit and told him “unless President-elect Obama is personally emailing you and asking for your solution to the mid-east crisit, there should be nothing more fascinating on that phone than me sitting here.”

He got bent out of shape. I got rid of him.

My policy now is you’re allowed to take an emergency call which is business related. But, more than one, or if you start vanishing into the bathroom and/or texting, you don’t get another chance.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 6:33pm

Thank You!!

I was beginning to think I was the only one left who believed that cell phones should be “OFF” during dinner.

But, like I said, my own Father was in a profession where he took calls 24/7. That meant dinner, church, middle of the night.

So, it is very difficult for me to enforce rules about cell phones with men at this point.

But I am definitely going to start watching more closely.

Wednesday, 13 May 2009 @ 8:18pm

I don’t even own a cell phone. I don’t like them. And if a guy I date has his phone going off (and worse yet, takes a call) in the middle of the date, date over. Not that I’m anywhere near ready to date anyway. By the time I start dating, cell phones may be obsolete anyway.

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After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 8 – Waking up

458 Comments to “After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 8 – Waking up”

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