SSSP meeting highlights: Psychopathy in women
PDF The Society for the Scientific Study of Psychopathy met in New Orleans, LA April 16-18, 2009. There were several hot topics discussed at the meeting including how psychopathy might be different in men and women. The general consensus seemed to be that psychopathy is under-diagnosed in women because in women the symptoms are different.
Dr. Edelyn Verona is a, leader in the Society. Her group presented, “An Examination of Borderline Personality Disorder and Secondary Psychopathy Across Genders.” To understand these research findings look at the list of traits below:
Factor 1 Traits (Primary Psychopathy)
• Glib and superficial
• Egocentric and grandiose
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Lack of empathy
• Deceitful and manipulative
• Shallow emotions
Factor 2 Traits (Secondary Psychopathy)
• Impulsive
• Poor behavior controls
• Need for excitement
• Lack of responsibility
• Early behavior problems
• Adult antisocial behavior
Dr. Verona’s group looked at the relationship between borderline personality (BPD) traits Factor 1 and Factor 2 in women. They stated, “We hypothesized that gender would moderate the relationship between secondary psychopathic characteristics and features, such that Factor 2 would correlate more strongly with BPD in women than in men. We further expected that primary psychopathic characteristics would be negatively related to BPD.”
The first part of their hypothesis turned out to be supported, that is Factor 2 was associated with BPD in both men and women but more so women.
More important though, is that the second part of their hypothesis was not supported. Primary psychopathic features were positively related to BPD and “F2 was significantly more predictive of BPD in high F1 women relative to low F1 women.”
The authors concluded, “In particular, the combination of F1 and F2 seems predictive of BPD in women, but not men. This suggests that psychopathy (which is typically defined as being high on both F1 and F2) is manifested as BPD in women.”
Their conclusions are supported by other studies showing a positive correlation between psychopathy and BPD scores.
I spoke with Dr. Verona about their findings, commenting that many psychiatrists consider BPD to be a mood or anxiety disorder. She answered that the criteria for BPD are not precise enough. A woman with PTSD and/or mood symptoms can be diagnosed with BPD if she is also impulsive. It does not seem fitting to group these women together with psychopathic women, especially since the treatment may be different for those who have mood/anxiety disorders.
What does this all mean for you who have family members or co-workers with BPD? My advice is consider the degree of harm done by the person in the context of Factor 1 and Factor 2 traits. The more a woman or man has BOTH sets of traits, the more dangerous she/he is likely to be.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
slappster says:
so work was very scary today. I walked up to get report, she said to the nurse..to watch the monitor so she could take me in the med room and talk with her. I follow her in there. She looks me in the eye and asks me “are you upset about something” I said “absolutly not” Im Fine” She says well then why are you ignoring me? why didn’t you say goodbye to me yesterday? I said “im here to take report and do my job” She said fine. So then she is acting really strange to me. she give report then trys to tell me Im wrong about a something but I proved to her I was correct. So then she says Bye. I was busy talking to someone else so I didn’t say Bye once again . I can’t pretend to be nice to her like as in chitchatting ..I am strictly keeping in work related. Im not rude but Im not talkative to her. I can’t put on a phoney smile to her. Im not like that. Anyways she screwed up on a bunch of orders today so I had to write her up twice because it was a major risk on 2 different patients that didn’t get their meds/ She is gettng many nurses mad at her. She is very mean to many people. most people are scared of her. She act like she’s a manager but she’s not. she’s just a secretary. Although she tells people outside of work she’s an RN :/
Well The day I say “bye” to her is the day she gets fired..then we will all be happy
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Tilly says:
Oxy:
Dr Kiehl is on the ball. Lets hope he/someone comes up with a resolution as well.
If a large percentage of the judges weren’t psychopaths then of course all our psychopaths would be held accountable..for what else is there to do with them.. but to institutionalise them in some way, for the rest of us to stay safe?
A lot of psychologist/psychiatrists here say the opposite, i.e. that sociopath/clusterB’s (especially borderlines) have the biggest money, reading material and interest by the medical profession and society of all the personality disorders. I’ve yet to see it.
slappster:
If I were in your shoes I would get a transfer or change my job. The very least that I would do is “pretend ” to be nice to her and say “bye”.
She will not get fired. But the situation will escalate.
Good luck with that.
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blueskies says:
Slapster that sounds chilling. This is tricky but I am inclined to agree with Tilly.x I hope she gets bored with you if you keep up the NC and attaches to someone else or leaves of her own accord. Her predatory and bullying behavior towards you , taking you on one side isolating and attacking like that is VERY scary.
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Jen2008 says:
The AMA estimates approximately 75% of psychopaths are dependent on alcohol and 50% abuse other drugs? So if you are with a psychopath, since 3/4′s of them are alcoholics, you have a slim chance of having one who does not abuse alcohol. And you have a 50-50 chance of getting one who does not abuse drugs. So chances are if you have a P on your hands, you also have an alcoholic or drug abuser on your hands because that isl staggeringly high %’s on them being alcohol or drug abusers.
Of course those figures are the % of p’s thought to be a or d abusers NOT the % of alcoholics or drug addicts thought to be psychopathic. I haven’t seen any statistics on what % of alcoholics or drug addicts are thought to be psychopathic, has anyone else?
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blueskies says:
I would be very interested to know. great post Jenn:)x
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OxDrover says:
Jen,
I don’t think there is any way to determine (at this point in time anyway) just how many psychpaths there ARE percentage wise, much less how many people are alcohol and/or drug addicted and NOT psychopathic.
Personally, my take on it is: AVOID PSYCHOPATHS sooooo
Since a high percentage of the ones we know are alcoholics and/or drug addicts—avoid ALL such people. That way you are most likely to be able to spot this before you are damaged by it, and NO ONE who is alcohol addicted or drug addicted is LIKELY to be a good relationship fit with anyone who is not.
Since we know ALL psychopaths are liars, i.e. 100% of them in all the studies—I avoid ALL liars. Of course, not every person who tells a lie is a psychopath (I have told a few myself) but if you DO avoid ALL liars you are most likely to stay away from psychopaths. I do except children or the “social lie” that consists of TACT, for example, when given a dish to taste and you don’t like it, of saying something like “Oh, that’s interesting” instead of saying “I could barely choke that down without puking!”
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Rosa says:
The American Medical Association is made up of physicians and medical students. Therefore, the information & statistics put out by the AMA are always changing/evolving, based on new studies/research findings.
This is a great thing when it comes to the subject of psychopathy. I don’t know if I trust the accuracy of their statistics (on psychopathy) at the present time.
After all, these stats are coming from the same doctors who mis-diagnose personality disorders for OCD (or something else) on a consistent basis, and who are conned by the psychopaths themselves.
I agree with Tilly. A sober, clean, psychopath is a whole different breed. There is no way a clean, sober psycho. will ever be represented in any statistic (unless they commit a crime). They are way too cunning, intelligent, and manipulative to get caught or be exposed.
But, just because they are not included in the statistics, does NOT mean they don’t exist!
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slappster says:
I would transfer but Im not going to..I know she is on her last leg.,.both my managers are sick to death of her..Im pretty close to one of my managers..she tells me what this sociopath says about me. They are watching her like a hawk. She’s missed too many days because she is an alcoholic and stays up all night to be with men she meets. By the way..she never uses protection which is dangerous for the men she is with. Im just going to be very professional and if I say bye to her and that will keep her from attacking me then Ill do it..but I don’t think that will solve the problem. She always has to have a victim. Now Im the new victim. The last victim is still there because I talked to her and told her to stay strong..someday she will attack someone else..well haha I didn’t know it was going to be me so soon. Im a strong person. Ive grown up with a sociopath..my father. I can definatly handle this. Thank you for all of your information about this. Its very helpful..Ill keep you all posted on what happens next.
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Escapee says:
Rosa
You mentioned mis-diagnosis and how some disorders are labelled OCD. I am very interested in this aspect as it was a big part of my experience and I think the whole OCD thing is very significant (for me anyway – not mine!). Do you have any links re this? Thought I’d ask.
Thanks.
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Escapee says:
PS
If you’ve seen ‘Sleeping with the Enemy’ – you’ll get something of the picture I was living with!
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Tilly says:
Slappster:
It is just when you think that they are on their “last legs” that they seeem to get a whole new “second wind” and their ability to stay on and on is mind boggling. At least , if your father was a psychopath then you know what to expect. At least that is one advantage, I suppose.
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Tilly says:
Oxy:
I will be going back to uni next week. One of my teachers there that I complained about before, is a full blown psychopath. They had got rid of her at the end of the last semester as her mask fell long enough for them to get a glimpse.
However, they couldn’t replace her and she has just sent me a whole bunch of really sickening emails telling me that she is coming back. She went on and said that she will be teaching my class and “will I support her as she needs it bla bla”..and trying to get info from me of whats going on there, etc.
I sent back an “appropriate” email, to cover myself for the time being.
The subject she is teaching is a “core/foundation” subject so that it has to be done to get the degree. Last time she taught I did the “idolising” strategy, I got high distinctions but it ruined my physical and mental health as it was torture.
I figure Im due to be discarded and devalued at some stage . At the moment she “needs” me, but it is full blown psychopath. A sober, very intelligent, cunning, egocentric full blown psychopath.
Should I just not do this subject in the hope that someone else will teach it next year?
Should I do it and do the “your my hero” stategy again?
I only found out today and I have had stomach cramps, migraine and diarrhea ever since.
If I DON”T do it, and she stays on to teach it again then I am in for a beating…if you know what I mean.
I need help with this decision. At the moment she is doing the, “I am going to give you a high mark so what do you want me to teach you and I will teach it to the whole class…but you must obey my every whim for the next 15 weeks,” routine, ( of course she has said this in different words).
This is a big turning point for me. What should i do? I have no idea when it comes to my own dilemma.
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blueskies says:
Hi Tilly, I know Oxy will be able to advise you more than I . x
But I meant to ask you how your art work was coming on, It sounds fantastic.x
Like with others on here it REALLY pisses me off when people are forced away from jobs they love or courses they love by these creatures. But I guess you have to weigh it up in your own mind and do what kathleen described as a ‘risk assessment’.
When i was at Uni, my relationships with my tutors were just professional ones, me student you teacher (some of them were grumpy sods and some of them were not particularly reliable, and some of them just put you to sleep in lectures… BUT no S/Ps;), I never gave mine or had their personal e-mails and I believe I was marked fairly, according to the course criteria and marking systems and my marks reflected the amount of effort and imagination I put in to MY WORK. Not how much I ass kissed the tutor. But I dont believe any of them were S/Ps! Thank god!
I do find, however that the Art world outside of uni, particularly the contemporary art world, is full of people who will only allow you ‘in’ based on your willingness to massage their ego’s rather than your talents or ability.Sigh.
She sounds like she is being too intimate with you, and being unprofessional at the very least (how can she promise high marks for work not undertaken?!) is there a way you can re-balance the student teacher relationship without getting ‘stung?’
I think this is TOUGH and like I said it makes me shout swears at the screen when I think that this person could STOP or DELAY OUR TILLY in pursuing a goal she has been working hard towards.
Then again the thought of you exhausting yourself jumping through hoops instead of being able to focus on your studies also makes me swear.
I know you will come to the right descision for YOU in the long run.x
xxxx
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Tilly says:
Thankyou blueskies:
The day I started this course I had this teacher and she told me that we had already met. ( I have no recollection of this whatsoever, and I am positive I have never met her). But she knew a lot about me when i was younger (I had an acting/modelling career and she said she knew me from then). What I am saying is, from that dayon she singled me out. I knew immediately I was dealing with a cluster B but it wasn’t until much later that I realised she is a psychopath.
I also don’t know if I will have to leave later on anyway, (because of the WPProgramme), so its all very disappointing in regards to my art work.
I have handed it over to God but my body hasn’t! I am so physically ill (since I heard she was coming back )that I havn’t been able to go out anywhere at all.
Thankyou so much for your faith in me. I have none at all tonight!
If i showed the emails she has sent to me to the uni she would be fired on the spot. But I would indirectly be firing myself along with her. I’ve dealt with these situations before…but never SUCCESSFULLY! That is why I am asking for help on this one. My art is very dear to me and I have been doing so well with it this year.
I’m good at seeing other peoples dangers’ blueskies, but hopeless at seeing my own!
But the days that I am really happy, I sing “blue skies, nothing but blue skies from now on!” And I really mean it!
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Rosa says:
Escapee:
I don’t have any links, unfortunately. But, I understand what you are saying.
“Sleeping with the Enemy” is a must-see.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Tilly,
I read your post about the teacher, and I think that your response depends on what you are up for. I know you are a really strong person. I also know that you have been through a lot, and the physical reactions you’re getting right now suggest that your body is simply rebelling. You can intellectually play with the idea of putting yourself in this woman’s sphere of influence again, but your nervous system is saying, “Are you out of your f~king mind?”
If it were me, I’d start with a mental position of “No, I’m not going to do this” And then figure out how you’re going to get away with it and still finish the program. And letting her win is not an option.
That puts you in the realm of being a sociopath to deal with a sociopath. Which is good. You want to be effective, that’s all. Not making a lot of noise, or starting a movement (unless that’s helpful to you). This is just about you getting what you want.
And then, if it were me, I would put on a nice, humble, friendly, non-combative face and visit the dean (not your advisor), and say that you will doing anything to meet your academic requirements, anything at all, but you cannot be in this person’s class again. Emphasize your respect for the school and your deep appreciation of all the other teachers and the program they offer. And say that all you want to do is complete your degree program.
If the dean says that there is no other option. Ask if s/he is saying that the only way to obtain the degree there is through this teacher. And that everything you have done there so far, the money that has been paid, and the work you have done is now basically placed at risk, because she is the gatekeeper to you moving forward? And you have no other choice but to place your academic career in this person’s hands?
And if the dean says yes, then stand up and prepare to leave, and say that you will have to consult with your attorney.
If the dean asks if you have evidence or material reason to want to avoid this teacher, say that you do not want to get into a court room situation with this woman. Or any kind of administrative or academic challenge. You understand the relative power of your positions, and you do not want that kind drama in your school life. And you don’t want to embarrass or harm the school or anyone else. You just want to be able to complete your degree with no further contact with this person, and you want her to have no further influence on your progress.
Re-emphasize your willingness to do whatever is necessary to meet the requirements, short of taking another class with her. And tell him or her that if he discusses this with her and then if you are forced to take this class, you can guarantee that this will be the end of your success at the university.
If he says that you must start some kind of formal inquiry about her to get out of the class, agree to do it. Tell him it is your last choice, because the legal assistance will cost you money and you suspect that you will not be the only person who will appear to give evidence.
And then repeat that the only thing you are asking for is a way to get out of studying under this person.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Sorry, I didn’t mean to post that. I didn’t get a chance to edit it. The point of all this is one thing.
You draw a line with whoever has power over this situation, in the nicest and least confrontational way possible. And you say what you want. You want to finish your degree without further encounter with this teacher.
You make a point out of wanting to do it in the least disruptive way possible for the school. And you make a point about your commitment to the school and the program.
And whatever the answer is, you don’t take the class.
If you really don’t want to get into an administrative spitting match with this person, don’t get pulled into sharing your evidence. Just dig in and say that it is equivalent to throwing your degree away to take the class with her, and you are willing to do anything else to complete your requirements.
I know that you’re only a student, but I also know you. This is one of those “just say no” situations. If you don’t finish the degree now, you can wait to take the class until they change the teacher. If the class is a prerequisite for others, ask to get into the other classes by special permission. Advise any other teacher that wants to go to her for a reference on you that you have a pending action against her, and tell the deal that you will do that.
Again, you’re not trying create trouble. You are just trying to salvage your degree.
This is not going to be easy. You are being targeted. Again. But if you want to stop it, you’re going to have to draw a line.
At least that’s my initial impression.
Good luck with it.
Kathy
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OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
Go back adn read BETTY’s story (it is a thread here) of course she did not know at the time what she was dealing with, but look at the results.
Back when I was in 2nd year of my basic nurisng degree, I encountered a teacher for one of my classes that I had to take and mad eit through the semester with this woman. At the end of the semester, I knew I could never kiss this woman’s arse the way she wanted it kissed for the next two years…I ended up driving 40 miles one way further and transferred to another University.
I saw her destroy other students (primarily men) all the while pretending to be so caring and concerned and trying t o”help” them grasp the concepts of the class—they got the concepts all right, she hated men! Her grading was SUBJECTIVE rather than objective. Her class was set up so only her OPINION of your work mattered.
After I left one man that she was flunking teamed up with some A female students and went to the dean and “won” that round, but this woman was a flaming psychopath if ever there was one and she was “clean and sober” too, and very CUNNING. I never did have any regrets about leaving and it was one of the FEW times I LISTENED TO MY GUT and ran like a rabbit.
Since ART WORK (and I assume that is what you are studying) is very SUBJECTIVE in what is “good” and what is “not good” rather than like math 2+2=4 is RIGHT, so it is difficult to prove that they are “persecuting” you because they can keep the mask up.
I wish I had an “answer” or even an OPINION on what you should do to handle it. I have found that kissing up to them at times (when you know it will be short term and know that there is an END in sight) worked for me once when I had a psychopathic boss on a project that I iknew would END, so I just kept a “stiff upper lip” went in to work, smiled and acted like “I didn’t notice that you are being snide to me” It was very difficult, but I think knowing what I know NOW I could have done it with less stress to myself than I had at that time.
UNCERTAINTY is to me what causes the worst stress….like WONDERING IF I have cancer to me would be more stressful than KNOWING I had cancer. If you, in my opinion, KNOW what you are dealing with, and know that it is simply for a short time, then you can “adjust” your stress by assuring yourself that it “isn’t forever” but if you stress over the decision…should I this, should I that???….etc stress gets worse.
I suggest you look at in “worst case scenario”
Worst case if I take the class with her as an instructor is______ (fill in the blank) Would it be, I flunk the class and have to take it over?
Worst case if I don’t take the class with her this semester is that I have to take the class with her next year as the instructor.
Worst case if I “out her” to the administration she is a WORSE ENEMY and she knows I am on to her and goes after me.
Etc.
Then Look at the advantages of each situation.
I have the ADVANTAGE of knowing what she is, and I can look at this like a “game” and NOT let this witch control my emotions and my stress….I can take the class, go into the classroom, ACT CIVIL to her, and go home at night and laugh at such a miserable character as she is and thank my God I am NOT her!
For the past several years I have had to “be nice” to a P because it was to my potential advantage to do so. I have had to PRETEND I DIDN[‘T NOTICE when she woujld do something “tacky” to me, etc. It was somewhat of a stress, but more and more as I realized what a piece of chit she was, and actually got to the point that if it turned out that me standing up fo rmyself meant I lost the possible advantage of her husband’s testimony in a civil court case pending, then so be it.
The case was settled recently, so no there is NO possible advantage in me not confronting her face on if she ever slitheres out from under her rock and shows up here again, but looking back, I think all the stress I felt about NOT confronting her was more self imposed than external.
It’s your decision, but if it were me (in the stage I am in now with the “give a chit factor”) I would take the class, be “nice” and “polite” but not overly friendly and NOT gossip with her etc or pal around with her after class etc. just be POLITELY NEUTRAL , and worse case she gives you a ration of chit and you drop the class in the middle of semester, or go to the dean then.
To me, it isn’t the poison snake you SEE that is a problem, but the one in the grass that you DON’T SEE.
The stress factor is the biggie I think, too….can you do this and control your INTERNAL STRESS and worry? That is what I would use to decide. ((((hugs)))))
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ANewLily says:
Tilly, I think both Kathy and Oxy have given you great advice. Not clear cut because you still have to make the decisions but great ideas and reasons.
From my one experience with a blankedy-blank professor, I might not advise dropping the class altogether except for this one semester and then hoping for a better teacher next time.
By dropping my class due to my REFUSAL to sit in his class and listen to FILTHY FILTHY jokes instead of learning the last 3 credits of Spanish I needed for the Master’s degree, I inadvertently gave up that degree forever. I did go to the dean (who was sympathic and kind) but the guy had TENURE and even she couldn’t do anything about it — and he was the ONLY one who couold teach that advanced level class.
Would I do it again? Yes, because I couldn’t “tolerate” him and my at home EVIL MONSTER at the same time and remain sane.
I think you are stronger than I was at the time. I believe in your ability to make a tood decision based on your GUT instincts.
I’m thinking and praying for you in this decision!!
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Tilly says:
Thank you so much KH, Oxy and ANewLily!
I made an appointment with the convenor of the course and then cancelled it as the psychopath is “best mates with them “. On the way out from reception I bumped into a teacher in the art department who I knew to be fairly neutral and blurted out my story. (A “euphamized” version).
He said it was too late to replace her as it all comes down to money. He said there was another teacher ( the original guy that I was going to go to.. the course convener) that was going to be taking the subject WITH her and that he would tell him that he HAS to “moderate ” the psychopaths behaviour. (Apparently he has the power to do this). He promised he wouldn’t tell anyone that it came from me. I believe that he won’t tell the main players, so there is a chance it stays anonymous. But the convenor “moderating” her behaviour is a bit of a joke, because she is so up his a#se! He is a really good teacher and a nice guy with no idea what he is dealing with. He is young and new to our uni.
We don’t have a “dean” in Oz. Its a different set up. We have someone in charge of each course and we have humanities/welfare officers (counselors) but we don’t have a “dean” so to speak. The counselors just “listen” and confirm they understand and record complaint. Thats it.
But the real reason I would NEVER make a formal complaint (re court etc) is because i have been so badly legally abused when i was totally innocent that just the thought of it makes me vomit literally.
I know if I “played the game” there is a good chance I will pass without having a breakdown. But “the game” is just like selling my soul. I can easily do the work, the subject, the art…I deserve the High Distinction and would get it from any teacher in that subject. But its not about the work with the psychopath. Its about making eye contact continually for four hours straight and pretending that her “speeches” and tears and tantrums and performances for manipulation and narcissistic supply are “right” and justified and that she deserves applause. Its having the rest of the class decide I am like her, because i am approving of her insane behaviour.
I have enrolled in another subject and stayed in her subject… So that I have still made NO choice yet. Just one baby step that could bring me undone if she finds out.
Your right oxy, the not deciding is worse than anything. but when i think about my erratic behaviour last term due to her whims and the tension in her class, it was hideous. You could hear a pin drop, and it wasn’t because she was interesting. She was devaluing the whole class (except me and whoever i befriended on the day) and it was sickening. I told you I am way overdue to be devalued and discarded. This is round three in the ring. Driving fourty miles would be my pleasure if I could do this subject with someone else.
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Tilly says:
Oxy:
If I don’t take the class this semester and have to do it with her next..you know I will be in for it, so I just wouldn’t. Can she keep on her mask for the whole of round three? especially since it slipped off last time? She will be ten times more vigilant.
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OxDrover says:
Tily, the only thing I can say is that once I had to take a temporary job in a location with the hospital that I knew would be temporary, I was working for an N physician and his P wife (she was office manager) it was horrible from DAY !, they treated me and patients like dog doo, I kept on smiling and being “sweet” and kept my REAL opinions to myself, I just kept saying inside my head “this is a game” IT IS TEMPORARY, I CAN DO IT, IT ISN’T FOREVER, I WONT’ LET THEM STAND IN MY WAY—I CAN TAKE IT.
Yes, it was a stressful 3 months that was over 15 years ago. This man has been outed by his peers as a jerk, andhis wife who has now advanced to over ALL the rural clinics and has spread pain, grief and despair where ever she went still reigns supreme with the powers that be, but everyone under her knows what a hateful person she is.
Several times, her husband has been severely EMBARASSED for mistreatinig staff, in fact, he was embarassed so badly a year and a half ago that they actually sold his practice and left that town. Interestingly enough, they tried to get him into another clinic and were STOPPED because the physician working there knew about them (partly from me and also from Mrs. P being the clinic administrator) so even with all of mrs. P’s power, she was not able to save her husband’s face.
They may never get what is really coming to them, but you know what, they haven’t skated “scot free” either.
I was able to survive those miserable 3 months by just talking myself into it. It WAS difficult, the same way it was difficult to get through that one semester with a woman I knew was a first class WITCH *(now I know P) but looks to me like you might be able to give it a try, and worst case, “drop” the class because of your “health” or something if it gets too bad. ((((hugs))))
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Betty says:
Hi, Tilly!
I’m Betty, that Oxy mentioned. The post is link is http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....g-monster/
Your situation is far more hopeful than mine, because you are armed with knowledge from LoveFraud and you have thought out dealing with n/p/s people very well. I didn’t know what I was dealing with, and acted out of ignorance. As Oxy says, “Knowledge is Power.”
I could not break through the professor’s wall of dupes at the uni – she’s been there 30 years, and done a very good job of enlisting even the dean, so that all complaints about her circle right back to her. You try to make even a complaint, and find you can’t.
Someone has listened to you, and that’s so good. Just keep your guard up: I can’t emphasize enough how much universities seem to be hot beds of gossip. Maybe it’s different where you are; but here, one must “keep it professional” — just as if you were at work.
I lost a lot in my encounter. I’m still in job search, and have massive student debts for a degree I didn’t get. When I can eventually take a master’s, it will be at a uni that offers off-site courses via computer, so I don’t have close contact with the instructor. That’s where this has left me — I can do the work, but I won’t deal with their personal dramas again. I still have PTSD, and last week, I woke up screaming like a grade-B movie queen, but it wasn’t funny — I was in the grip of terror. Our bodies do tell us off BIGtime when we’re staying in a place that’s bad for us.
I hope you have great success — you’ve received solid feedback and advice — and here’s hoping you continue to kick tush and take names at school! It will be my pleasure to dance the Happy Dance with you here at LoveFraud when you graduate!
Take good care of you. Good Luck.
Very best wishes!
Betty
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slappster says:
tonight was a bit better. My manager agrees with me that my coworker is a true sociopath. The sociopath didnt say one word to me. She actually chose to work in the front station rather than the back..so I didnt have to take report from her. But tomorrow is another day with her and I will have to take report from her. I think she knows That she can’t screw up right now at all. She’s already on a written warning from the managers.
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Tilly says:
Oxy and Betty:
Thankyou so so much for caring enough to be there for me on this one. ” I saw a self-possessed, controlled and controlling, smooth, charming, poised academic turn into a snarling, spitting monster within literally a second. ” Yep! THATS HER!! Thats when she dropped the mask and got told there was no work left for her at the moment. But God has sent her back into my life to make the choice. Round three. Will I go back into the ring? I promised myself the first semester I wouldn’t. I promised myself the 2nd semester I wouldn’t. Of course it was ten times worse than previously. The other teacher will “enable ” her…not “moderate” her.
If I pull out half way thru the semester I will be failed. I have two weeks to decide whether to stay in her class. You can bet her first three classes will be the charming, funny, open minded teacher she acts so well. After that it will be all a nightmare.
Am I up to the task? Definitely not. But as Oxy says, I am going to give it a try. Maybe I can stay under the radar for half the semester and kiss her a#se for the rest. Worst case scenario is I will fail by pulling out half semester and have to do it again some other day. One things for sure Betty :
I will NEVER be on my own with her, or accept an invitation to go ANYWHERE within a hundred miles of her home or her letterbox or her dog!!
LUV YUS!! (((HUGS)))) and THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME!!!
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Tilly says:
mind you…I could change my mind in a second on this one!
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Rosa says:
You can do this, Tilly.
There is a possible silver lining here.
This might be the perfect opportunity to start channelling all of your stess and anxiety about this P instructor into your art work.
You have already done the “Face of God”, right?
This semester sounds like a good time to start working on the “Face of Lucifer”, or the “Face of Hades”, or “Medusa”.
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slappster says:
well my “s” coworker struck again. She now moved in on my close friends. And what shocked me yesterday was that she attacked one of my other coworkers that is a friend to me. She tried to get her introuble with the bosses when my coworker had nothing to do with a certain situation with a patients family. Not only did she fly off the roof out loud in front of everyone..she yelled at the family of the patient. Then she askes my coworker who came to work for me while I was a doctors appt, “How come nobody asked me about you working for her” as if she’s some kind of authority? WoW. My problem is I thought my manager understood her since she told me she did..but now..Im finding out that my Sociopath coworker is spending a lot of time in my managers office..joking around and talking , gossiping..this is what others have told me. So now I can’t trust my manager..but I do have someone I know I can trust and she’s strictly by the book..My managers manager. The one I told you all about is my assistant manager..where My main manager is the one everyone knows is by the book. She’s doesn’t gossip and she doesn’t get too close to the employees like my assistant manager. Its nice that she talks to me and tells me what the sociopath said about me BUT how do I know she won’t tell the sociopath what I have said about her? Im starting to really hate my job. Thank God there are more than few people on my floor that know this coworker is a true sociopath.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Slapster,
That’s the thing with them is that they will try and try and try and NEVER GIVE UP and make trouble as long as they are around. I am a retired advanced practice nurse, so I pretty well know what you are talking about. I have dealt with some of the same stuff time and time again—It is difrficult to know who to trust. I wrote up one particular aid for leaving the floor without notifying me (as charge nruse) and be gone for 4 hours time and time again, and NOTHING WAS DONE ABOUT HER. she did not do her job, spent all day on her cell phone arranging her sex life which was forbidden for her to do, but she did in plain sight and the upper management did NOTHING. Finally she was FIRED after months and months of this. The problem is when you ahve a person who is like your co-worker, they make the whole place miserable and make others not only have to work twice as hard, but be unhappy at the same time, and patient care is what suffers most.
My observation is that hospitals and medical clinics are OFTEN a haven for these people and rather than clean house and get rid of these bad employees, the management lets them drive off the good ones. It is a shame. I am sorry I have no answer for what you could do to help yours situation, because I don[‘t. In all my years and years of experience I have never seen any good come out of a situation like this. Sorry, but I definitely can imagine what you are going through. Welcome to my X-world, being retired and away from all this crap is WONDERFUL!!
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slappster says:
yea thank you..I just talked to another nurse I work with and she and I both come to realize that there is NOTHING that we can do. One of my friends that was pretty close to me who is also a union rep, well she is now hanging out with the sociopath as well as hanging out in my assistant managers office gossiping. After everything weve agreed on about her being a sociopath,, The sociopath won her over..But thank God I have another union Rep that is trustworthy. And the main manager that is trustworthy. Hopefully I will find another job soon. I can’t deal with it anylonger. But for now Ill stay low and keep my mouth shut at work. Im sure the sociopath will eventually get fired..she can’t not be a mean person to people. Hopefully it will bite her in the ass sooner than later.
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libelle says:
Dear Slapster, welcome to the club! I can so relate to what you are experiencing now. I also work in a hospital, and a head nurse (P) there is a pure evil dragon. She tried to mob me although I am not dependent on her (I am a MD).
I learned not to take it personally, be strictly polite but not too friendly with everybody and to not reveal ANYTHING personal about myself. I do not trust ANYBODY and concentrate on my work and on the patients. No gossip, and as much NC as possible (I loved gossip, but I learned to hate it when it is used as a weapon! I leave it to the tabloids at the hairdresser’s).
Good luck! You seem to do a great job, much more difficult under such stress, and I wish you a relaxing weekend!
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slappster says:
thank you libelle, I learned the hard way about gossip. I did get into the gossip thing back when I didn’t know who I was dealing with..It always leads to bad. No gossip for me any longer. Its sooo easy to get caught up into it..Even Some of our MD’s get caught into the gossip game a very small amount of MD’s that is. Yes now that I really think about it I do NOT trust Most of the people there..except I do trust My aunt who works there I know my main Manager is trustworthy as in not telling other coworkers what another said about them. And then one other girl there who has been a victim of the sociopath longer than anyone. I talked her out of quitting a while ago because I didn’t want that sociopath to win her..this other victim is such a good person and a great employee. She has been through so much and nobody helped her until I called her and told her I know whats going on. The sociopath tried to get me against her by telling me that this other victim was talking bad about me..I know the sociopath was lying..she’s good at lying..but not good enough to full me.. the other victim cried and I told her Im not going to let that sociopath get to her any longer..but WOW Now Im the victim haha. I knew someday The sociopath and I would have it out but not this soon. Monday I go back to work and I wonder how it will be..Its a bit scary but Iwill be strong and stay professional as best I can.
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slappster says:
excuse my typo lol..I said full me when I meant Fool me ..im tired ..its been a stressfull week..
have a great relaxing weekend yourself
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HurtMoM says:
Is there any mothers out there that have a daughter that is a sociopath. My 37 year old daughter is one. She has been in the Air Force for 18 years. I never saw her mask slip until she was stationed in the U.S. She had been overseas for 16 years.
She has tried to have her Dad put in jail accusing him of molestation of our granddaughter. Proved to be false and just another lie she made up. I have seen in her eyes the empty soul. It is like an alien has taken over her body.
When I was in the hospital she turned off my pain medicine after my colon surgery. All the time playing like she did not do anything. She has turned my son, my sister-in-law and nephew against me.
I have not been around her in two years. How does a mother go through life feeling she will never see her daughter again.
I have reacurring dreams that she has taken my baby girl away from me and will not return her.
How does a mother go on with life in this situation?
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ANewLily says:
Dear HurtMoM, I feel so sad for you. My adult children have sunned me due to the smear campaign (and lies) of their narcissiopath father and I have survived. I know the pain (actually grief) of not having contact with my children.
However, none of them are socios, meanng they are not mean or vindictive., just trainwashed. I had to decide to give up my grief and turn it into acceptance and try to live my new life alone. A year ago, after about 6 years of silence, one daughter started to contact me. Now, recently, so have the other three. I have to add I don’t really trust any of them yet but at least it is a start.
However, there are other moms on this site who will surely see your plight and respond to you from their experiences.
In the meantime, welcome to LoveFraud. There is a lot of information for you to read — and learn.
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OxDrover says:
Dear HurtMom,
I can relate to you, I have a P-son who is 38 and who has been in prison nearly 21 years, he is in for murder now, and even from his prison cell tried to ahve me murdered a couple of years ago. I literally had to flee my home to save my lfie.
Yes, they are EVIL, that is the only word I can think of to describe them, they ENJOY hurting us because they know we love(d) them. I have been NC with my son for over 2 years, and at first the pain was totally awful, but as I realized it, finally, I had “lost him” completely many years before. I grieved as if he was dead when he murdered the young woman he killed in 1991, yet, I still tried to believe he could be rehabilitated—if anything, he is more evil not less. He is actually PROUD of the pain and chaos he has caused, proud of killing that woman.
How do you cope? It isn’t easy, but I literally held a memorial service for my son as if he was dead, I “buried” him, grieved for him, and have come to acceptance that he is LOST to me, just as if he were physically dead. I miss that wonderful little boy, but the man is not the little boy, the man is a stranger, an evil stranger.
come here and read and read about the psychopaths, and realize that this is NOT CAUSED because you abused the daughter, it is more genetic than anything else, just as my P son is like my P-sperm donor, he was not abused…but he DID have a choice, it isn’t like they don’t know right from wrong, they DO, they just enjoy the evil.
God bless you HurtMom, stay round here and read and learn. There is much good support here. (((hugs)))) and God bless you.
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slappster says:
so guess what?? its been a while since I posted here been going through alot at work. Manager doesn’t listen to us when we have a complaint. she instead tells us to handle a problem on our own instead of helping us out…well I was working last night and out of the blue..the sociopath calls me at work while its her day off..to tell me a bill collector called for me at work. She then says they wanted her to transfer them to HR! I told her to just hang up on them. She then says Well I just wanted to give you an FYI. I said thanks. She then says OH YOURE ARE VERY WELCOME! in a very excited way. Weird..so then My manager calls me the next day to tell me that I need to come into work and to have a union rep with. She says I have a harrassement case against me..I know its her. I have no enemies other than her and her friend who both use to be my friend. So said I can’t go to the meeting until Tues because my union rep won’t be back from vacation til TUes..so now Im on suspension until tues..Im like What the hell? I did nothing to this person..She called me! while I was working..and on her day off. I never called her. The only thing I can think of is that she’s saying im talking about her on the floor which is not true. But one time. With another coworker but I did appologize to this sociopath for talking about her. And basically It was the coworker who was doing all the talking. I just agreed. I am going to turn this around on her. She is harrassing me
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slappster says:
and when I did appologize for talking with another coworker, she accepted the appology but that was a while ago..like months ago. She is dangerous..this is the millionth time she’s filed complaints against coworkers..I would hope they will see the huge stack. Anyways my union rep is very good. And I hope he will make sure she doesn’t get away with it. I am just so curious on what grounds is she able to file such a complaint against me. Im going to make sure I get payed for these days off..when I turn this around.
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OxDrover says:
The grounds she will use are LIES, half truths and made up facts…it is what they always use.
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slappster says:
Im just wondering if I will lose my job over her lies. when i told my union rep who was the one I think is complaining. He said “oh wow..yes I do want to represent you” He knows what she’s like. He’s a good union rep..the managers don’t like him because he doesn’t take their crap.
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geminigirl says:
Dear Hurt Mom, How I feel for you! Both my daughters, {now 43 and 45}, are narc/sociopaths.It is very very hard to accept it. before I found Lovefraud, i thought I was losing my mind, and the pain and grief were just terrible. My younger daughter,C., I havent seen for 17 years. she has never once allowed me to see any of her 3 kids, now 13, 10, and one year old, not even as babies. She is a total control freak, has lived for 14 years with a rich jewish boy, but wont marry him. The “Mum in law, pays all the school fees, bought them a 3 million house in an exclusive area of Sydney, and 2 cars,{one for the Nanny}.My other daughter has used and abused me forover 25 years. She only rings if she wants money. With the support of LF, I went No contact with her, and have been for
a couple of months now. I set a couple of boundaries, and she hasnt honoured either of them, so I have to accept I may never see her again. I still feel guilt, even though I know she doesnt care a jot for me, and only uses me. her 3 kids are now living full time with her ex husband, as she has lost her job, her flat,has no car, no money, and has over A$20,000 in credit card debts. Ive given her over $10,000 in the last 3 years, it has to stop. I wrote to her to tell her,”The Mum bank is now closed”. Since then, I havent heard a peep out of her.
She is 45, still looks good,and as long as she can go on suckering people in, I suppose shell survive. She has lied, conned me out of huge sums of cash, causd me dreadful worry and anguish by her heartless behaviour. I now wonder what horrible people I gave birth to all these years ago. Up to the age of 10 or 12, they wer e normal, loving little girls. I feel ashamed to have given birth to such dreadful people, I dont recognise them, they lie, cheat, are snobbish, haughty, arrogant, cruel, uncaring, without kindness , empathy or compassion. I should feel sorry for them, but I feel sorrier for me, that I allowed them to treat me with such disrespect, cruelty, and contempt, for so long. NO MORE! Ive had enough. I now dont miss them. I havent seen the older one since last Xmas, and she only came because she conned $200 from me to hir a car, so th kids could come over to my place, have a lovely lunch, pocket their gifts, and leave within 2 hours. Havent seen her since that day.Jesus predicted that in the End times, the behaviour of children to their parents would be like this, and He was right! Its happening now! geminigirl.
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slappster says:
I talked to an former employee today she has been harrassed by the same sociopath as me. She will provide me a written letter she wrote to Human resourses back when she file the harrassment..apparently the sociopath file a counter harrassment case against her..resulting in my former coworker in leaving on stress leave and then quiting without notice. Its very sad but I think maybe things are going to work out in my favor..i have a list of things shes done.
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slappster says:
excuse my typos..i meant filed not file :/
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Outlier says:
It is important to realize that you can be fairly safe, as long as they don’t know you know.
My two sociopaths: sister and neighbour. Neither of them know I know. However, neither does the world who provides their N needs.
I realise I am facing a world of people who now see this extremely quiet person (me) suddenly become a malicious and destructive individual. All without talking to me, asking me questions, seeing me. They have all the info they need from my abusers. To this day nobody has spoken to me, but actively avoided me or cut out warmth in their communication.
Nobody has noticed where the constant source of lies/slander originate. Though what makes this complex is that my two abusers set up others to do their work, so I react at a complete outsider (eg my brothers). This outsider then reports back to abuser with ‘yes, you’re right about her, thanks for warning me’. So I am now isolated and will never be believed when I speak the truth.
Now I finally understand why for 25 years I used to divide the world into 3 groups: my abuser, 6 billion people and the thrid most destructive – the scores of people who are sucked into the abuser’s sticky web, who turn against me. They all ‘know something about me’ well before I meet them, so upon meeting them they show signs of wariness towards me. I thought I was crazy for thinking this. This is exactly sociopathic abuse well before I knew anything about the disorder.
It’s dealing with the 3rd group – whilst I want them to know what’s going on right under their nose, I fear that telling them will create more harm for me (so that’s a no). Are targets silenced forever? I am seeing how this is the best option (for the sake of my own physical/mental health).
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skylar says:
Outlier,
that is what happened to me as well.
Your solution will have to depend on all the variables in your particular situation. and you will have to be patient as opportunities arise.
What you have to do is become very well informed and versed on the subject of narcissism. Read as many books as you can. And then, without mentioning your sociopaths by name, simply bring up the subject to those people who seem to be receptive and who have time to listen. The theme of your discussion will be narcissism and slander. With enough discussion, people will eventually recognize for themselves who is an N and who isn’t.
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slappster says:
I went to the meeting at work and provided tons of evidence that she’s been harrassing me..I completely turned the harrassement case around on her..They found out that I did nothing wrong..So I got payed for the 3 days I was suspended and they added on extra hours on my paycheck which I was happy about..on the other hand they gave her a warning..My union Rep put this sociopath in her place..He told her “you are the one who is harrassing her” By calling me at work..and tons of other things she’s done. she actually had the nerve to say “I don’t know why she filed the harrassement case” then My union rep says..are you kidding me? YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS DONE THIS! We are all sitting here today because you filed the case!” Then HR says “yes..you(meaning her) are the one who brought your personal issues into the work place” I was very pleased with the outcome of this situation with the sociopath..So now they are watching her. She’s walking on thin ice. I found out recently that she has a new victim to pick on..this girl was once her closest friend and now just as I thought she has victimized her like she did me. I just hope this other victim doesn’t let the sociopath get away with it. OH and check this out..this sociopath now want me and her to be like we use to be..”friends again” haha can you believe that..after she tried to get me fired? and calling me at work on her day off to provoke me?” Im just putting on a smile and keeping it strictly business. But Im staying clear from this sociopath. Well I just hope that Human Resources will not tolerate this sociopath another day. She is evil and even has a gun. I brought that up in the meeting as well.
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imfree says:
Hello, I’m new on this post, but I too, have been touched by a psychopath. I met a beautiful, charming, woman, she worked in my same field, so we had a few things in common.
she came over, and I couldn’t get her to leave. She set me up, moved in, and made my life a living hell.
A demon, an enemy in my own house, everything is ok, while they are getting what they want, when they want, but if you fight back, watch out, they become the victim, the threats, and yelling begins, the violence creeps out, and you’ve got a hell of a problem. You can never confront them, because they
never answer any questions, you can’t trust them, they constantly lie, and then forget their lies, they mimic you,they say what you want to hear. They play different roles in order to get you to think how great they are. You know there is something wrong, but you can’t pinpoint it, they blame you
for everything that goes wrong. They don’t care about you, they have no remorse, no empathy, and they are very vindictive. They take control, use you, abuse you, make your life a living hell, and then some more. I got rid of her, but it wasn’t easy, I got arrested, harrassed, threatened, stalked,
she beat up my cat, and smashed its teeth, when I wasn’t around, Reality is you can’t fight back, because they find ways to screw you, and they usually win. I ended her games
got two people to witness her evil doings, got her out of my house, told her I was scared of her, and then I sent her a list of all the traits of the psychopath, telling her she had every single one of them. I exposed her, she knows I know.
She found someone else, I am finally free. They are very dangerous, My advice to people who are dealing with psychos
don’t, you can never win, don’t fight them, don’t entertain them, get them out of your life, no contact, no nothing,
expose them, be sure you have a couple of witnesses hanging around, and expect the worse, but once they know that you know, they have to find another prey. I’m still recuperating, it’s been a hard journey, thank you for these posts they help alot.
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ErinBrock says:
Imfree:
welcome to LF…..you’ll find a lot of healing stories and articles here.
You sound very strong and quite educated and certainly NOT questioning your decision…in the least!
I commend you for that empowerment!
Keep learning, keep growing and remain strong.
Good to have you here posting.
Take good care of YOURSELF!!!
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imfree says:
Thanks Erin,
I’m glad I found LF, … it’s nice to be able to share with other people that have been caught in a psychos web, hopefully
help them get out. I’ve read alot on this topic, and I’ve lived it
and it’s amazing how many of these Demons are out there
just waiting for the right person to destroy.
Hopefully, I can help others by sharing, there is life after a psycho, but its hard.
You have to find the strength, from wherever, and get them out of your life, the bottom line is it’s you or them.
Thanks
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zimzoomit says:
witsend,
you wrote above, about your boy, “when he was younger he had a ‘big brother’ from the big brother big sister organization for several years.”
Not to scare you or anything but my ex had a juvie record, and I honestly believe he’s a Spath. He also confided to me that his gay male cousin and he had oral sex with each other, when my ex was age 12 and his gay male cousin was around age 15. Is there a possibility that that “big brother” might have molested your son, behind the scenes?
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