SSSP meeting highlights: Psychopathy in women
The Society for the Scientific Study of Psychopathy met in New Orleans, LA April 16-18, 2009. There were several hot topics discussed at the meeting including how psychopathy might be different in men and women. The general consensus seemed to be that psychopathy is under-diagnosed in women because in women the symptoms are different.
Dr. Edelyn Verona is a, leader in the Society. Her group presented, “An Examination of Borderline Personality Disorder and Secondary Psychopathy Across Genders.” To understand these research findings look at the list of traits below:
Factor 1 Traits (Primary Psychopathy)
• Glib and superficial
• Egocentric and grandiose
• Lack of remorse or guilt
• Lack of empathy
• Deceitful and manipulative
• Shallow emotions
Factor 2 Traits (Secondary Psychopathy)
• Impulsive
• Poor behavior controls
• Need for excitement
• Lack of responsibility
• Early behavior problems
• Adult antisocial behavior
Dr. Verona’s group looked at the relationship between borderline personality (BPD) traits Factor 1 and Factor 2 in women. They stated, “We hypothesized that gender would moderate the relationship between secondary psychopathic characteristics and features, such that Factor 2 would correlate more strongly with BPD in women than in men. We further expected that primary psychopathic characteristics would be negatively related to BPD.”
The first part of their hypothesis turned out to be supported, that is Factor 2 was associated with BPD in both men and women but more so women.
More important though, is that the second part of their hypothesis was not supported. Primary psychopathic features were positively related to BPD and “F2 was significantly more predictive of BPD in high F1 women relative to low F1 women.”
The authors concluded, “In particular, the combination of F1 and F2 seems predictive of BPD in women, but not men. This suggests that psychopathy (which is typically defined as being high on both F1 and F2) is manifested as BPD in women.”
Their conclusions are supported by other studies showing a positive correlation between psychopathy and BPD scores.
I spoke with Dr. Verona about their findings, commenting that many psychiatrists consider BPD to be a mood or anxiety disorder. She answered that the criteria for BPD are not precise enough. A woman with PTSD and/or mood symptoms can be diagnosed with BPD if she is also impulsive. It does not seem fitting to group these women together with psychopathic women, especially since the treatment may be different for those who have mood/anxiety disorders.
What does this all mean for you who have family members or co-workers with BPD? My advice is consider the degree of harm done by the person in the context of Factor 1 and Factor 2 traits. The more a woman or man has BOTH sets of traits, the more dangerous she/he is likely to be.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
Rosa says:
No surprises here.
My brother’s wife has every single trait (BOTH FACTOR 1&2).
PLUS SHE HAS THE SADISTIC TRAIT AND THE ‘PREDATORY STARE’.
I know it sounds hysterical, but I think she is capable of killing, or at least “arranging an accident”.
For some reason, society is much more sympathetic to female psychopaths than male.
These women are just as dangerous as the men. When there is a small child involved, they become MORE dangerous because they manipulate/abuse the child for their own agenda.
Watching a psychopath mother care for her child is like trying to get a baby away from a boa constrictor snake. The harder you try to free the child, the more angry the snake becomes, the tighter its grip.
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Saturday, 2 May 2009 @ 2:19pm
Rune says:
Dr. Leedom, If I understand this correctly, you are suggesting that BPD is the diagnosis often dished out by mental health professionals to women who are psychopaths. Did I read this right?
I was employed by a woman who “buddied up” to me, much like Betty’s situation in her article several weeks ago. She confided that she had been diagnosed as BPD, but I got to watch her behavior over about six months.
She was highly manipulative, glib, charming, a pathological liar, and I watched her fly into “narcissistic rages” and harm everyone around her, including her own grandchildren. I’ve never seen a more malicious individual. I stuck around because she was the one employer available to me at the time. In the end, I’d have been better off with a cardboard sign, begging at the exit ramp of a freeway. She was a psychopath, through and through. All the promises of payment “when the next check comes in” were worth less than the air her promises were written on.
Yes, she was sadistic, and had a predatory stare, that she didn’t use until late in the game. Now I know why all those people before me quit and carried their stuff out of the office in the middle of the night.
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 12:14am
Rosa says:
There is something “machine-like” about the female psychopath.
You can tell when they are interested in something, because they will do it to excess. They will not know when enough is enough.
For example, no child needs 4 birthday cakes for their birthday party. Some may see this as a loving mother. But it is NOT a loving mother when she is doing it to make HERSELF look good. It is NOT a loving mother when the child has fading bruises under her party dress. It is NOT a loving mother when she does not pay any attention to her child the other 364 days of the year.
There is something cold and emotionless about them. Men are expected to be unemotional. Women are not.
Whether they are making supper or coming at you with an ice pick, their face never changes.
Once you see the mask slip, the “buddying up” becomes really CREEPY.
The CREEPIEST trait is that they seem to have a 6th sense about knowing when you are “onto them”. You have to be very careful.
I have to go into “Psychopath Mode” whenever I deal with my sisiter-in-law. That means emotions are shut down and guard goes up.
It is like going into psychological warfare.
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 1:36am
shabbychic2 says:
Dr. Leedom: I certainly can be all three… impulsive, depressed, anxious… all at the same time, and you are right, I would not want to be grouped with psychopathic women, or medically treated like one! I don’t have any of the F1 traits. In the F2 catagory I can be impulsive (as I already mentioned) and have a need for excitement, although there is absolutely no excitement going on around here now! LOL. Thank you for your observations!
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 2:01am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
“The CREEPIEST trait is that they seem to have a 6th sense about knowing when you are “onto them”. You have to be very careful.”…Rosa
I think that is a critical point. When you finally “see” what they are, and the mask slips…that is when the F1 factors, hidden when they are “in control”, emerge.
Then, and only then…does the target/victim see the pattern, and then the smear campaign, the pathological lying, is discovered. And the lack of empathy…remorse…guilt.
And yes…I think women are “under-diagnosed”, due to cultural factors.
Thanks, Dr. Leedom.
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:29am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear Rosa,
“The CREEPIEST trait is that they seem to have a 6th sense about knowing when you are “onto them”. You have to be very careful. ”
It is important to realize that you can be fairly safe, as long as they don’t know you know. Once they realize you know, the gloves come off.
Many of them have very successful covers. They claim to suffer mysterious disabling ailments that are almost impossible to either diagnose or rule out. They play on people’s pity and have amazing explanations for all their bad behavior.
Glib really doesn’t cover it. We’ve got one in the family who sounds so reasonable, you feel like a fool for doubting her. We have a policy of listening to her as seldom and briefly as possible. Crazy, I know! But it’s the only way not to get sucked in to her fantasy world. We’re all better educated, and usually we think we’re pretty smart. Where she’s been concerned, we’ve all been dumber than stumps. Knowing there’s a “stupid zone” rather like a gravity well swirling around her, we all do our level best to stay out of her influence.
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 7:34am
OxDrover says:
Dear Liane,
WOW! Some great stuff! I have suspected for some time that BPD and Psychopathy were the “male vs female” Diagnoses.
Just as female cardiac patients are frequently UNdiagnosed because the SYMPTOMS IN WOMEN vs MEN are DIFFERENT many times, I think the same may be true in this instance.
There is also the “hormonal” differences in men and women and the monthly fluctuations in women that have to be taken into account as well. The PMS “bitchyness” in women makes me wonder if PMS behavior changes are a part of “BPD” or of psychopathy in women.
I wonder what studies have been done on “PMS” vs viiolent behavior, and then coorelated to a dx of psychopathy and/or BPD?
EC–I love your “stupid zone” comment!!!! You are getting to the level of Aloha with your “right on funny comments! ” Congratulations. I aspire to reach that level! ((((hugs)))))
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 10:58am
Annie says:
Rosa:
“PLUS SHE HAS THE SADISTIC TRAIT AND THE ‘PREDATORY STARE’.
I know it sounds hysterical, but I think she is capable of killing, or at least “arranging an accident”. (…)
Watching a psychopath mother care for her child is like trying to get a baby away from a boa constrictor snake. The harder you try to free the child, the more angry the snake becomes, the tighter its grip.”
Rosa, you’ve described my mother to a “T”, except that she didn’t have the factor 2 traits for the most part. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the movie “Aliens” with Sigourney Weaver, especially the scene where the alien is going after Newt (the little girl in the story – the only survivor from her family) and Sigourney gets into the “loading suit” to save her? I once recorded that and gave it to my therapist to say that that’s what my life felt like. That the person sitting on the end of my bed at night was that monster. My first mistake was going to a feminist based therapist – I think she thought I was deranged. What she told me was that I was overblowing things: making things up and imagining them; I’m certain she felt that there is no way a woman could be that bad to her daughter. So you have no idea what a gift to your niece your validation of her perceptions will be when she’s older.
I still haven’t been able to figure it out, but I’ve come to the “realization” recently that in some way the presence of my grandmother must have acted like Sigourney’s role in that movie. Neither of them ever mentioned the other, but I had the feeling that my mother was afraid of my grandmother and, even though I have no logical or credible evidence for this, that my grandmother’s loyalty and connection to me kept me alive. For whatever it’s worth, I suspect that as long as you stay silently watching, even from a distance, “accidents” are less likely to occur. I’d always felt that my mother would have killed me if she could have gotten away with it. I think my grandmother’s watchful eye meant that she couldn’t. As I said, I have no evidence for this other than gut feeling. It may sound strange, but my grandmother’s love for and connection with me, even though she didn’t “actively” defend me against my mother, is so powerful in my psyche that it felt as strong to me as Sigourney’s defence of that child in that movie.
I can’t say that your niece is lucky, but she’s lucky to have you in her life.
Annie
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:04am
Annie says:
Hello Dr. Leedom:
I have my own personal theories about why women psychopaths are underdiagnosed, and would be interested to get your feedback.
I’m a big fan of Dr. Hare, and grateful that he’s brought some attention to this, but I agree that there are short-comings with the PCL-R that creates problems for detecting/diagnosing female psychopaths. For what it’s worth, from my own personal experience I suspect that there are different types of psychopaths, that researchers get sidetracked by their initial exposures, and that those traits – which don’t always belong together, have been muddled up into both the psychopathy definitions and criteria – for men as well as women.
I could be incorrect, but from my reading I think that Cleckly for the most part described the casual opportunistic amoral thief/conman type (the one who never met a mark or unattended wallet he didn’t like), and I think his original work has perhaps overly influenced the PCL-R.
I think that Hare, on the other hand, got so blind-sided by the psychopath he met originally who threatened his first session with a knife and later “fixed” his brakes, that the first part of his professional life and research became almost fixated on that particular type of psychopath (that he incidentally also had easy access to study): violent male psychopaths in maximum security prison. I find it odd, however, that the most significant traits that differentiated Hare’s brake-tamperer from Clecky’s criteria didn’t make it into Hare’s PCL-R: namely predation and sadism. If I’m remembering this correctly Hare’s psychopaths, like Cleckly, were opportunistic and reckless – factor 2 charcteristics – but more sadistically violent and vengeful against a particular target, rather than any easy target.
What both of them seem to have missed in my opinion, and this perhaps is why the criteria for psychopathy leads to underdiagnosis of women, are a number of “views” or versions of psychopathy, some of which it seems to me Hare is lately trying to bring some awareness to but which, in my opinion, would require updates to the PCL-R.
For instance, Hare has lately been writing about the successful psychopath (e.g. Enron, Worldcom, Bernie Madoff, perhaps Conrad Black), and yet I suspect the major difference between the unsuccessful and successful psychopath lies in the relative presence or absence of factor 2 traits.
I would also add a category for predatory and sadistic psychopaths;admittedly those could be diagnosed by existing criteria, and yet their most defining traits are not listed in the PCL-R.
And I think that female psychopaths also fit on that same spectrum – some are opportunistic, over-sexed, manipulators. Others, like my mother and Rosa’s sister-in-law, are esteemed professionals who would never present themselves that way. I also think that various incarnations of Munchausen’s by proxy would relate to female psychopathy, and those criteria are missing/absent from the PCL-R. I suspect another difference may be that certain psychopathic mothers get enough of their “supply” from abusing their children that their psychopathic behaviours wouldn’t be as readily detectable, or exercised, outside the home.
I think that there is also a spectrum of psychopathy that relates to either Narcissism or Sadism that isn’t properly captured in the PCL-R. I couldn’t say that my mother was a narcissist particularly, but she could definitely be termed a sadist. I’d be interested to hear your opinons re: the relation between sadism and psychopathy.
Thank you for providing updates from the conference, and for bringing some much needed awareness to this issue.
Kind regards,
Annie
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:17am
Rosa says:
Annie:
You are onto something here:
“certain psychopathic mothers get enough of their “supply” from abusing their children that their psychopathic behaviors wouldn’t be as readily detectable, or exercised, outside the home.”
That is why it is SO frustrating. You have to be in a close, personal relationship with these psychopaths to see the true evil and sadistic qualities.
And unless you see it up close and personal, you will find it unbelievable when someone tries enlighten you.
If it weren’t for my niece, my sister-in-law’s personality disorder would have never been uncovered. I probably would have never suspected a thing. VERY SCARY.
One more tip when it comes to children:
When a child is walking around at age 18 months saying, “Mommy is the monster.” TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. DO NOT LAUGH AND THINK IT IS A CUTE JOKE, OR SOMETHING THAT WAS LEARNED FROM TV.
The first sentence out of a child’s mouth should NEVER be, “Mommy is the Monster.”
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 11:53am
Rosa says:
Jim, Annie, Elizabeth:
Once I educated myself on the personality disorder of psychopathy/narcissism, my sister-in-law’s behavior was no longer bizarre or confusing.
It suddenly became predictable, and made perfect sense.
People who are operating on the premise of a healthy, normal-functioning human being will never get it.
You need to operate on the premise of a disordered individual.
Knowledge is POWER!
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Sunday, 3 May 2009 @ 2:04pm
lifegarded says:
Sociopaths defined….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=janTViXo4rY
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 12:38am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Rosa,
“You need to operate on the premise of a disordered individual.”
If normal has been ruled out by a pattern of bizarre behavior, then disorder is what’s left. When you make the paradigm shift, and everything fits, you’re probably on to something.
It’s been my observation that peope are what they assume others are. If you go through life assuming others are well intentioned, then you are probably a human golden retriever. If you go through life seeing dishonesty and malice everywhere, you probably harbor a lot of darkness. When we stop projecting what we expect or need to see, and start simply observing, we learn a lot.
If I had realized that people who made ugly judgements on flimsy evidence were probably mean and dark inside, I would have avoided quite a bit of trouble in the past.
Everybody isn’t Pollyanna like me, and everybody isn’t like the S/P/N either. We have to pay attention to what’s actually presented, separate from what we want, need or expect.
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:06am
Rosa says:
Yes, Elizabeth Conley,
I AGREE!
We need to look at WHAT IS, and not want we WANT there to be.
That would have kept a lot of us out of trouble, I think.
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 9:51am
S O S says:
Professional misdiagnosis aside, if “psychopathy” is the baseline:
The greater feeling (reward dependence, agreeableness) they have, the more BDS they tend to be.
The higher IQ (possibly intellectual novelty seeking, openness) they have, the more Narcissistic they tend to be.
The less audacity (harm avoidance, extraversion) they have, the more Machiavellian they tend to be.
The greater their long term goal directedness (persistence, conscientiousness), the more malignantly narcissistic they can be.
The major differences between successful and unsuccessful sociopaths is intelligence, circumstance, and any mitigating emotional factors which promoted their cause-effect reasoning ability. One ruthlessly grabs, the other ruthlessly grabs with strategic forethought.
==============
Student Of Sociopathy
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 12:30pm
S O S says:
Of course there are limits to each temperamental variable at the edge of each variables ‘sweet spot’ (Autistics are obviously not Machiavellian, but can develop some form of social agreeableness which ensures their survival within their social context, in line with their capability of understanding the benefit of such).
==============
Student Of Sociopathy
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 12:40pm
Rosa says:
SOS
“One ruthlessly grabs, the other ruthlessly grabs with strategic forethought.”
What about the one who does NOT need to grab at all, because they have manipulted others to do their dirty work for them?
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 2:26pm
S O S says:
Poor choice of words on my part. “To obtain or appropriate unscrupulously or forcibly” might have been more accurate.
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 4:45pm
a_real_wife says:
Hi Rosa, and E1
I was struck by your sucinct phrases:
______________________________________
Once I educated myself on the personality disorder of psychopathy/narcissism, my sister-in-law’s behavior was no longer bizarre or confusing.
It suddenly became predictable, and made perfect sense.
People who are operating on the premise of a healthy, normal-functioning human being will never get it.
You need to operate on the premise of a disordered individual.
______________
How very true – especially in the case of my guy’s STBXW – the Narcissist; her behavior was never bizarre or confusing … TO ME … but it’s been a uphill battle to educate my guy’s perceptions of her behavior. He likes to believe that “Everyone;s doing the best they can…” – Hogwash, I said to him – she’s NOT, she CAN’T and she NEVER will…
I had her PEGGED, by both her actions and attitude as an NPD afflicted individual, confirmed when I met her and spent the initial amount of “getting to know you” time with her.
Now I “PREDICT” her next-steps, and danged if I’m not right waaaay more often than not – he’ learned to trust my assessments and evals and predictions – she thinks she’s still got him snowed and under her thumb – and she HATES me, because I can see through her BS!
He’s got my predictions (of what she’s going to – or NOT – do, next) to act upon – those have come in very handy during the custody battle, which will be ending soon, finally, and in our favor.
Great post, Dr. Leedom – great responses, too, from ebverybody
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 10:33am
sabrina says:
I have a question to make sure I am understanding- are you guys saying that when we realize that someone (he or she I presume applies here) is a S, that we should never confront them as such, for fear of more abusive, dangerous retaliations? Never call a spade a spade so to speak in this case?
I suspect someone in my family is an S, and am not in position to go NC at this point but I continue to see big red flags. I have commented to this person (male) that I know that he feels nothing for anyone but himself. His emotions are evident only when something dosent go well for him, no direct empathy for others.
Is this a dangerous path to go down? Thank you for your insight. This is a very
interesting and informative blog.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 4:06pm
Rosa says:
Sabrina:
If you are dealing with someone (male or female) who exhibits all of the Factor 1 & 2 traits above, they are nothing to play with.
People with all of the traits listed above need psychiatric intervention on a professional level. They can be very dangerous when confronted.
The more impulsive, vindictive, and lacking in conscience, the more dangerous I believe they are.
My brother’s wife is a psychopath, and she is very abusive to both my brother and my niece. I would NEVER dream of confronting her, because she would hurt my niece, and maybe even my brother. I have warned my brother about her disorder, and I think he sees it too, but not to the degree that I am seeing it.
These people are pathological liars, and they will never admit that they even have a problem. Their defense mechanisms are very strong, so to confront them on your own without any hard evidence is very serious business.
My situation is different, because there is a small child caught in the middle. My main objective is to keep my niece safe right now. So, I keep my mouth shut. But, when my niece is grown, it will be a different story.
If there are no kids involved, and you are dealing with a man, I still would not confront him without having someone with me. And if he has a history of violence/abuse, I would let the authorities confront him. I would not do it myself.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 4:34pm
Tood says:
Sabrina,
As someone who has dealt with narcissists and psychopaths since earliest memory, all I can say in reply to your question is “It depends.” There is no way to predict what these disordered creatures will do. The only safe bet is NO CONTACT. And that means no confrontation, no conversations, no “letting them known that you know what they are.” It is always safest and best to have no contact whatsoever. If you can’t go NC, then BECOME THE WORLD’S BEST ACTRESS and never let them know you know what they are.
My father was what I’d term a low-functioning S/P. He didn’t have much ability to control his own responses to unwelcome stimuli. He was a drunk and he was violent. He came close to murder many, many times. Once, after a particularly terrifying episode, he quite seriously asked me (a child) for my opinion of him. I didn’t have decades of experience with S/Ps then, and I answered honestly that I hated him.
Well, let’s just say that confrontation was not a good idea.
A low-functioning S/P wants only unqualified admiration and/or fear. One thing they do not want is an honest assessment of their own behavior or personality.
Many years later, I did confront my quite high-functioning ex-husband about his psychopathy. He (being the psychopath that he is) did not outright ADMIT what he was. He instead gave enough weasel-worded, too-clever, word-salad responses to let me know that I’d hit the nail square on the head. And he ENJOYED being “outed.” He LIKED being compared to Ted Bundy. It made him proud to think he was THAT GOOD at his con games and lies. He chuckled with delight throughout the phone conversation in which I tenaciously held onto my contention that he was a psychopath.
With him, it was safe for me to give him my honest assessment of his personality. Because his schtick was not violence, as my father’s was.
Even so, at the time I confronted my ex-husband with my newfound knowledge of his psychopathy, I did not have the full picture. At the time I confronted him, I THOUGHT I had a complete picture of what he was. BUT HE WAS MUCH, MUCH WORSE THAN I KNEW. Had I confronted him THEN with what I know NOW, well, there is no telling what I could have unleashed.
So, it may or may not be a physical danger to you to confront an S/P. Once the scales fall from your eyes, it is always best to disengage as quickly and as cleanly as you can. Because you never know. Any person with NO CONSCIENCE is capable of any terrible act. What was a nonviolent con man on Monday could become a violent rapist on Tuesday. What was a “spade” on Wednesday might become a “backhoe” by Thursday. You just never know.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 4:46pm
S O S says:
Sabrina,
S’s usually don’t care if they are ‘officially, legally sociopathic’ or not. Trying to shame or inspire them to change is a waste of time. In my experience, (S’s at work) they’ve only ‘changed’ for me, in order to buy time for themselves and the new plot they were cooking up against me.
Standing up to them can be a tricky matter – I currently do this on a strict case by case basis. Out of the sociopathic Dark Triad, machiavellians are easiest to intimidate. They usually feel relatively normal levels of anxiety and have imaginations to work with.
An agreement with some narcissists might be reached if you leave their ‘self-entitled superiority’ alone – i.e. they understand that controlling you in ways you wish to be controlled is far more productive / less painless than attacking you.
Unfortunately, psychopaths are the ultimate moral retards / boneheads. They’re pretty much gonna do what they’re gonna do. No brakes or emotional weaknesses of any kind, with the exception of lack of anxiety inducing foresight (which would keep them out of prison). NC is best, until you’re targeted (while captive). If you’re no fun for them to ‘play with’ they might leave you alone. My best current defense is to maneuver them into getting publicly exposed, without their knowing it.
—-
Another thought for D. Leedom,
I’ve seen several cases where BPD’s have publicly acknowledged their affiction, admitted it’s destructiveness, and expressed desire to change it. But never the same with a psychopath.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 4:55pm
learnthelesson says:
Sabrina,
RFS…Red Flag System.
Stop.
Change Direction.
Avoid.
Minimal contact …if a family member that means…Hi.. Pick up non-ringing cell phone and say hello and casually walk away mid sentence waving Bye or mouthing (catch up with you next time)…. They are so into themselves they wont even notice the phone never rang. And you are out and away from the sounds and sights of an unhealthy person.
Knowledge is power. Most people have to get it and gain it on their own at their own pace!!!
But once you know – RFS!!! Stop. Change Direction!!!
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 5:15pm
Tilly says:
My last ex P realised i was highly suspectingthat he was a psychopath when i made some casual ” flippant” remarks to that effect! Boy! did he react!! ” Duck, here comes a nuclear weapon”.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 6:38pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Stargazer,
Somewhere in here I read that you are having some setbacks yourself and feeling depressed…just going through a lot in general. I am thinking of you and praying that your amazing spirit rises and shines again stronger and stedfast with each day. I hope youre doing better tonight and that you’re snake is curled up next to you making you smile too!
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 6:42pm
sabrina says:
Thank you all-Tilly, LTL, SOS, Rosa & Tood (sorry if left anyone out)for your much needed advice.
I know your right. I have not been ready to admit ecsept to myself until now, but
I strongly suspect the S that is now in my life is my 20 yr old son. I am just now healing-8 mos N/c with my x husband N/P (not my sons father) And didnt feel like I could even begin to deal with another but since I found out criteria of an S , some 7 months ago, the dreaded signs are there with my son.
As of 2 wks. ago, he is now living in my home otherwise would be on street. I know the dangers of being an enabler, and even more so the dangers of a S- but hard, hard choice to deny son a home for a few months. I’ve made it clear this is only for 3 months to give him a chance to retain a job, and I will give him shelter ONLY if his attitude is respectful and healthy. (what are the chances of this happening?) And he must do his share of work around house and pay $ when able .
He is manipulative, lies, selfish, has rages, uses others,twists words like no other,hates authority, hy of drug/alchol abuse, quit school, was in juvey for failed drug tests/,defiant, has been in jail- DUI, and NONE of it was ever his fault according to him. He blames me or anyone (crazy making) for him being such a victim. He REFUSES counseling, or taking any meds that may help him deal. When we’ve tried counseling, he tries to convince therapist, pastor, anyone who will listen that I am to blame and will lie to “prove” his story. He has been physical in the past with me (shoving)and is definately verbally abusive when angered with his g.f. or me. If any of you were posting this ,I’d say Kick him out NOW. I am on borrowed time till his rages start again I am sure. I have said to him if he does, he will be out with a police escort if necessary. Terrible that this even has to be said. I keep thinking if I can help him (once AGAIN) get on his feet, to where he is somewhat independent, I won’t have to deal with him living with me anymore. I know the chances are dismal and weak that this theory will even hold water. At the same time, I of course love my son, want him independent, but NOT at the expense of myself and my 7 yr old daughter. Thanks for listening, any advice welcome.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 7:28pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Sabrina,
I didnt realize it was your son…Have your read Erin Brocovitchs post to Witsend. And did you happen to see the dear sweet Housie is going through the same realization as you? If you havent had a chance to read Erins post to Witsend…or you cant find it…let me know and will try to search for it too…it may be helpful to you. And Oxy speaks very candidly and openly about her experience and what she feels can be done and cant be done. Hang in there. My prayers to you. ((hugs))
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 7:41pm
sabrina says:
LTL-Thank you for your support. You didnt miss anything in the first post, I just said family member as it seemed too painful to say my son. Its been a slow, gut renching ordeal with him for last 4 to 5 yrs. The only thing making sense is that he is a S. I made myself go back and focus on the marriage of his bio-dad some 20 yrs ago and although I was very young, its very poss his dad is a S.
LTL, I will research that blog thank you so much. I may have been involved in that one, but didnt bring up my suspicions about my son. I feel guilty not only laying on the problems Here at LF with my x N/P AND my son. So many others have emergency issues needing immediate attention. This one is pretty intense, but has been ongoing for so long. Once he ran away at 15 for 2 weeks as I was devastated not knowing if he was ok or not. He called threatened to maybe kill himself, maybe go to another state. When police found him, he seemed oblivious of the devastation he caused me and his whole family.
As much as I hate to admit I am afraid of my son when in a violent rage. I have even made him sleep in basement, locked out of house, with a sleeping bag months ago, instead of inside b/c his anger turned violent and he flipped a chair and grabbed me. True to a S- he acted as tho it never happened shortly after. If he did comment, it is something like , well you made me act out.
I have a deadbolt lock and hotel lock on my bedrm door (b/c of my x ) and when I leave every day going to work I lock it so theres no chance of stealing, or getting into my laptop. Its crazy. With my newfound boundaries, NO ONE else on earth would be allowed to put me into this situation again. My son does NOT deserve my help in light of his past transgressions-too many to get into, but I feel stuck somewhat. I guess I can allow natural consequences to happen, he will get disrespectful and have to be kicked out. I know how to be cautious and when he is ‘triggered” I will take steps to protect myself before it ever gets out of hand. He is pretty predicatable now that I know what to look for.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 8:06pm
Tood says:
Oh Sabrina,
More than one or two of us completely understand and sympathize. You know that Judy Collins song “Both Sides Now?” Well, many of us here have looked at psychopathy/sociopathy from many sides. I’m the child of one, the mother of one and the ex-wife of one. NOTHING compares to the pain and heartbreak of trying one’s hardest to reach a child who cannot be reached.
No one understands. It goes against everything we have been taught to believe. Religion teaches us that no soul is irredeemable. Psychology teaches us that with the correct combination of love, parenting techniques, patience and motivation, even the badly damaged can be saved. And sometimes it is just not true, no matter how much we want to believe in the fairy tale.
Within the last year, I too allowed my psychopathic child into my household. Here’s what happened: this child found a way to override the blocks I had put on my phone, and ran up over $1200 in long distance charges. Deliberately wrecked my car (by taking it airborne over a hill at top speed, with my grandchildren as passengers) after I allowed the car to be used to drive to/from a job. Stole from the employer at the aforementioned job. Took my youngest child along on a series of breaking-and-entering crimes (that, fortunately, the youngest child told me about so that I could get both the stolen property and the psychopathic child OUT of my house). Turned my household upside down searching for a nonexistent gun that this child thought I had (yes, I ran a bluff and let this misconception stand, strictly for self-protection). Went through all my paperwork and files while I was at work and had a “cheat sheet” for future identity theft that contained ALL my children and grandchildren’s names, Social Security numbers, etc.,. as well as several very good practice forgeries of my signature, and all my bank account information. AND THAT IS NOT ALL OF IT. There are even worse things that I could write, but choose not to out of utter shame and sadness.
Nevertheless, I STILL pray for this child, and hope that somehow, someday, something will change. I tell myself that “if Saul can become Paul,” then my child could change. I tell myself this, but deep down I don’t really believe it. Because I have tried for 30 years now, and nothing has worked.
I don’t want to discourage you or depress you further, but think of your own safety, and the safety and well-being of other family members. Sometimes you must make the most wrenching decision possible, and move to protect the children who CAN be saved. You can always still pray for the S/P child, but safely, from a distance. As another thread here notes, you first priority is to SURVIVE.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 9:06pm
sabrina says:
Tood,
I cried as I read this as I am feeling exactly what you described=nothing compares to the pain and hearbreak of trying to reach a child who can not be reached.
I keep thinking, if he can just be around me and my home where there is peace,and love, maybe he will go in the right direction. I KNOW this is delusional. He grew up here. He had an opportunity and blew it then. Everything you know about S is different when it is your child. I still see glimpses of his beautiful personality, and I repeat stories to him about things he did as a child to maybe show him how much he was loved then, and try to create fun, wholesome things for us to do now. In some ways, I mourn due to feeling it may be my last chance to have him in this home and cherish the “normal” times we have now. The flip side, I know he is a time bomb and matter of time before the masks slips and everything is turned upside down with financial detriment always a factor with a S. No way around it.
Tood, I am so sorry for what you went thru, its as painful as it is financially devastating. Try not to be shamed for what your child has done. I have been thru all those emotions, and continue to, but in reality we are not responsible for their actions. I can so see my son doing EXACTLY what you said. In shock, I thought about my own phone service (he has been using it) AND is begging to use one of my vehicles for transp. to work. I panic that he could be collecting info just as you described for personal gain with criminal intent.
Thank you for sharing your very personal story. For some reason, I had a huge problem admitting it. Somehow in my mind saying it might make it too real to deal with. However, the opposite is true right now. I must take a deep breath, and use all the research and knowledge about S to get in reality with my son.
LTL- I just found the thread where Housie said her son is a S as well. WoW. I had not read it until now. Lord be with us all.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 9:35pm
Rosa says:
I pray every day for my 5-year old niece who is being raised by my “raging psychopath” sister-in-law.
I have seen glimpses of psychopathic behavior in her. But I am not sure if it is genetic, or if she is acting out what her mother does. I want to believe she is acting out.
I know that I have bonded with this child even if her mother has not.
This child reached for her mother as an infant. It was “Mommy” who did not reach back.
I have already accepted the fact that this child will have psychological scars that will require therapy later in life.
Does anyone know what the probability is that she will turn out to be a psychopath?
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 11:15pm
witsend says:
Sabrina
Sounds like you and I maybe need to talk. I have a 16 year old son that I struggle with on a daily basis. Because of his age and because I only saw signs of this since he was 15, it
seems to soon to label him. Every day I see another “layer” of him. Everything I see scares the hell out of me.
I see very little of the son I knew just over a year ago. He is almost like a stranger to me now in so many ways.
EVERYPLACE I have turned to for help has pretty much said…. Well he hasn’t broken the law yet…… As I see it, the road that he is on without intervention NOW it is only a matter of time before that will happen. He already has the “blame” thing down to a science. Nothing is ever his fault.
I am sorry to hear that you have just recently come to terms what you see in your son. I really feel for you as there is no worse feeling in the world than a mother who feels absolutely powerless to help her own child. I myself already feel powerless and he is only 16. I have seen a “dark side” to my son that although it is hard to articulate into words it is as real as it possibly can be, when it is experienced.
It is as if looking into the eyes of a stranger when those “moments” happen. And actually wanting to withdraw, away from that look, those eyes….Maybe you have experienced this? I have only experienced this a few times with my son but I will never forget it.
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Tuesday, 5 May 2009 @ 11:17pm
S O S says:
I lived down the street from a teenaged kid, who was a completely good clean confident normal kid, but had an older brother who had schizophrenia. A few years later, I found out that guy himself had become schizophrenic. Very sad. But there seems to be some success with antipsychotic drugs for this affliction, which happens to 0.4–0.6% of the population.
Lately around here I’m seeing a lot of stories about kids who’ve turned sociopathic in their teen years. Maybe there’s an expert out there who can answer these questions, as this is beyond me:
1. If sociopathy has temperamental roots, how does this thing happen so suddenly?
2. Is this a different kind of sociopathy, when it happens suddenly? And is this form treatable?
3. Why hasn’t there been more progress regarding sociopathic treatment when it is much more common and much more destructive to society than schizophrenia?
==============
Student Of Sociopathy
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 1:01am
sabrina says:
Dear witsend, I am sorry you are going thru this as well. It is a painful journey. If I had known what a S was when my son was younger-poss 14 yrs old I would have been suspicious then. Teenagers can go thru a very selfish stage where sometimes interest in opposite sex, drinking and drug experimentation alter their behavior. As bad as it seems,I was hoping this was the case and it would reverse itself by now (at age 20). That has not been the case.
Your comment about looking into eyes of a stranger is so true. My son will be in a war of words with me that would make your head spin. I have had to work on my temper more with him than ANY other person in my life. Talk about pushing buttons. Its because he mixes truth with lies with manipulation with paranoia with distrust with cruelty.
Recently, he made me so upset with his crazy making, I cried. He looked at me so coldly, laughed & said Your good at crying, I heard you cried in court with your X just for sympathy. I NEVER cried in court, in fact my GOAL was to keep FROM crying. A complete lie on his part.
Witsend, when my son was 16 (your sons age)he was so out of control as he lived with me,single mom. I went to court and asked for help. tHIS WAS an extremely unpopular move with my sons step dad who had helped raise him, up until we divorced. other family members thought I was horrible to take my son to court so to speak. Later, everyone lived to see this was a good decison.
THe courts appointed a probation officer to do drug testing, keep his curfews, and come to our home to see if my son was following rules. My son failed at this and was put into a Family Connection home for a few months,-in which I went to visit often, as it was structured to repair families & re condition wayward children.
That wasnt enough for him, Boot camp for juvenile offenders was next along with some jail time before the camp was available.
My Son HATED me for “putting him in jail”. He NEVER owned any of the blame for putting his family thru this. My whole family ralleyed to help him-my brother thought I was exaggerating the problems, so he took him (before courts were asked to get involved) as last ditch effort to “straighten him up” with a male authority- My son caused chaos within a few days at their home, had his grandmother in tears as he argued incessantly with her.
Lies and manipulation are his specialty.Oh along with smear campaigns. He had everyone who would listen believing I am a crazy,incompetent mother- think” 8 Mile”- movie about Eminem’s drug addicted mom in trailer park. He told our pastor at 16,that I was “addicted” to rx meds, and bi polar plus many other lies that have NO TRUTH whatsoever!-just lies out of thin air. I’ve never had problems with any drugs or any diagnosis of BP!
In remembering all this, I am thinking OMG! He is back in this house again! There are so many other details, this is just where we started. I hope it may help you in some way.
I will never regret going to the courts to declare my son “defiant.”THe courts explained to me that at 16, my window of opportunity was there. There would be only 2 years to attempt to turn around his bad behavior- AT 18, he is
not eligible to be held accountable as a juvenile- no help from probation officer reeling him back in as a MINOR.
AT 18, he is considered an adult- real Jail, no sealed records.
I had no choice but to try to turn this child around plus I had a baby girl at home that it was affecting. Once at 15 yr. old, I left my son with my daughter (she was around 4) for 2 hours to go to eat with a friend. I called from restaurant to check on them, ordered take out for my son, he said everything was fine. I got home shortly after, to find my son passed out from an overdose of xanax and other drugs.
He had to go by ambulance to hospital,have his stomach pumped. But this was once AGAIN, not his fault he claimed.
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 10:01am
sabrina says:
Witsend- Did you notice anything when your child was younger to indicate S behaviors? I dont think I ever did. He seemed sensitive and was pretty close to me- always taking him places with NO behavior problems. He played well with other kids without being a bully. I guess if there were any signs, I may have missed them but nothing alarming stands out.
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 10:13am
BloggerT7165 says:
SOS –
I would say that it is not as common as is often stated by some. Anti-social behaviors are often called psychopathy when in fact they are not. There was a recent article that had the following comments from Hare:
Experts say they see this played out to some extent among adults in prisons where criminals, most of whom are “sociopaths” who, unlike psychopaths, have a conscience, often grew up in harsh environments characterized by factors such as abuse, deprivation or gang violence that seem to play significant roles in shaping their attitudes and influencing their behaviors. Psychopaths might also have had unhappy home lives, but in what seems so inexplicable, they can come from stable homes, too, suggesting more of a genetic influence in these latter cases.
and this:
“The majority of criminals would meet the criteria for antisocial personality disorder but only 10 to 15 percent meet the criteria for psychopathy,” says Hare, who developed widely used psychopathy checklists for determining whether adults and juveniles as young as age 12 show psychopathic tendencies. Gang members, for instance, who kill or steal for their group might be viewed as people with antisocial personality disorder, or sociopaths. But unlike psychopaths, they may truly love — and would never hurt — their own families, and they also may feel guilt or remorse about their crimes.
So if you go by that there is help and treatment available for those that are not psychopaths.
But there is no treatment that will work, regardless of the diagnosis, if the person receiving the treatment does not want it to work.
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 11:48am
sabrina says:
Blogger- Thank you for your information, as well as helping SOS, it was beneficial to me as well. My son grew up in stable middle class home , although divorced parents, but with what most would consider privaleged. His step dad raised him with me from 2 years old and was for all practical purposes his real dad with lots of love and attention. However, In thinking back, his bio father is a suspected S.
Explaining the possible genetic connection.
Witsend- Housie and I have blogged more details on NEW LIFE thread re: sociopathic sons. If you’d like to join or read more.
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 1:04pm
sabrina says:
Blogger- I might add, his step father was not a S so he didnt have “learned behaviors” as he had little to no contact with his bio dad.THen when his step dad and I divorced (he was about 15) his step dad continued to be huge part of his life, moved 1 mile down the road ,and my son even lived with him until recently.
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 1:10pm
S O S says:
Thanks BloggerT7165,
…they’ve done worse with criminal convicts.
My personal experience with sociopathy or APD involves cases which were observable from a very young age, or evolved from difficult circumstances such as tough ‘hoods or abusive parenting. I’m fairly clueless about the teenage onset, not to mention, clueless about why schizophrenia seems better understood than sociopathy. But I’m open to force-feeding conscience growing medications…
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 5:35pm
witsend says:
Dear Sabrina
I am sorry for my delay in responding. I had to work today away from home.
Today was not a good day in regards to my son and it is posted on another thread so I won’t repeat it her again.
I did want to say however that as they say on LF….Same church different pew???? Did I get that right? I think Matt says that alot.
I can relate to much of what you said.
When you went to the court did you file for incorrigible teenager? Is that what it was called?
I was told to do that by by sons psychiatrist. And like you say, I know that my son will hate me for it. And everyone will think it a radical way to deal with what they look at as a “defiant phase”. However those same people that will judge me are offering NO solutions. Other than logic, & reasoning and you and I both know this doesn’t work with these kids.
The fact is that MOST all teenagers can be defiant at times. Most all teenagers KNOW everything, and most teenagers push the rules….This is a phase.
BUT most teenagers also have the ABILITY to respect boundaries, they really WANT consistant rules (even if they say they don’t), And most teenagers you have the ability to reach them if you “time” it right. Maybe not right during the middle of a conflict over curfew time….But they can be reached. They have emotion (sometimes way to much) AND most importantly when you make eye contact with them there IS someone home.
The lack of REAL emotion, the vacancy in his eyes, and the amount of lies and manipulation, lack of any accountability for ANYTHING, and lack of REALITY, anger, etc, that my son displays on a daily basis is not healthy. My son can have THE look of a hardened criminal. Instantly, he can look like that. If he is angry.
As far as I know he has never even been around a hardened criminal to mimic this? So if this is learned behavior, he should win an academy award as he is a very good actor.
He is young in his looks….A young 16 year old. BUT when he shuts down or GOES there…..Its a scarey thing….He doesn’t look young anymore.
I don’t even care what you want to label it to be “politically correct”. I just want to know if that window of opportunity is there to get him help.
It sounds like you were exactly where I am when your son was my sons age. My son never did have a step dad or male father figure in his life. However…..
He does have an older brother (10 years older)….And when he was younger he had a “big brother” from the big brother big sister organization for several years.
Like your son up until about 15 years of age my son did NOT display anything different than most kids his age. He was sensitive and loving and we did have a close relationship. He also seemed VERY receptive to a loving relationship…..
He told his couscelor today he just wants me to leave him ALONE. He wants his teachers to LEAVE him ALONE. He esentually wants the couscelor to leave him alone.
He doesn’t have a problem everyone else has a problem.
I am going to read what is posted under new life…..
When your son overdosed on pills did he ever say that was an attempted suicide? Or if not, what was his take on this…Accidental OD?
.
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 6:53pm
witsend says:
Sabrina….
Please tell me what thread the sociopathic sons is on I can’t find it…??? Grrrr
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Wednesday, 6 May 2009 @ 7:02pm
slappster says:
Hi Im new here..I am a victim of a true sociopath..she is my coworker. I found out later on that she is one. When I first started working at my work 6 years ago, I had a coworker who warned me about this sociopath..she told me to watch out for her..she’s evil. I didn’t see what she was truly talking about at first..I thought the girl that claimed that she was ..was actually just being a bitch. I hung out with this Sociopath for 5years. Throughout the years..slowly I noticed things..Shes vindictive to other employees..she even had some fired. She would tell me her deepest secrets so I thought but she’s lied..It all went down when She told me she made her husband buy her an expensive RV ..then a purse for 1000. bucks.then a new car..then another dog. I thought how selfish she is because her husband didn’t want to buy all that but he did it to make her happy..But then This is what really got me..She decided to cheat on her husband with her exboyfriend from 20 years ago..Her exboyfriend has terminal Cancer and he’s married and has children. I told her to stay away from him and stay with her loving husband and be good to him..but then she got wierd..she started to stalk the dying ex. I told her she shouldn’t do that.. then she said she was going away to New York because of stress due from her husband ..she wanted to divorce him now ..(he’s a good man and never did anything wrong to her) She then was dumped by the dying ex. She still stalked him for a bit until she met another guy on her stress leave or shall I say vacation? She then slept with this new guy..went back home told her husband she needed to go back east again to visit her granma..but she was actually going back to see the new guy..she finds out that he has a girlfriend..so she stalked him even though he basically told her to get lost cause he chose his girlfriend over her..she stalked him over and over until the new guys girlfriend threatened him.. she stopped for a while ..and now..she has slept with 4different men on match.com after that last guy back east..in the mean time her husband is hurt..devistated because he found out his wife has cheated on him and how he found out was because the new guy back east his girlfriend got the sociopaths number and called her husband. Told him everything. He was soooo hurt..but she the sociopath did not have any feeling about it..she continued to screw him out of alimony and she left him with the kids (thank God) She didn’t want the kids. Her kids were divistated but she says they are horrible spoiled kids that don’t understand that she needs to find herself.. OK
NOW that I told you that part..Finally I realiZe this girl is a sociopath. So I kind of told her that she is not thinking of anyone but herself. She decided to victimize me. She went to my boss and told my boss that Im not to be trusted and that Im a horrible person. Thankfully My boss really likes me and doesn’t care for her. She actually got written up for calling in sick too much. But whats weird, She is so mad at me because I told her how I feel about her sleeping with all these men With NO protection But she’s is acting really nice again to me. But She just told my boss yesterday that I wasn’t to be trusted..She is very vindictive and I know she’s trying to get me fired but It won’t work. I know it won’t. I will outsmart her..I already got a head start. My boss knows everything. This sociopath is a liar. She tells everyone she’s a Registered nurse but she’s not . she’ not a nurse at all. Well its late and Ill be back on tomorrow to see what you all think about her.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:51am
slappster says:
I want you all to understand that she really hurt her husband bad and as much as I told her its wrong to leave him when he’s been such a wonderful guy to her and great father. she says I haven’t walked in her shoes. And the saddest part is her kids. They are so mad at her but she says she did nothing wrong. and sleeping with all these men with no protection? She actually slept with a family member of a patient in the parking lot the first night she actually talked to the guy. The one good thing is that her husband did get the house and the kids. She never fought for them and she never will. She did want the house though gladly she didn’t. She does wants half of everything he owns..I feel so bad for him. When men have dumped her..she would get that glazed look in her eye scary. She would text them like crazy..she was so mad that the dying exboyfriend was in church instead of talking to her on the phone.She actually cursed God. One thing I forgot tomention is that she is an alcoholic..she drinks a lot. Plus she takes anitdepressants but how often I don’t know. I never saw her really show any kind of emotion about anything..if anything she would fake tears. one day she was crying about my bird dying but something starteled her..she jumped out of it instantly with the words “hey I gotta go My guy is calling me” Call you later
Now Im wondering what is her next move. Everyone at work is scared of her from her history of vindiction towards many.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 3:28am
slappster says:
oh wow I forgot another sign I found that she is a sociopath..she’s a sex addict. She says she wants a guy to have good sex with and nothing more..she actually gave a longtime friend a proposal ..sex and no strings attached. He turned her down ofcourse. He has a girlfriend..she told me that she doesn’t care if a guy is married or has a girlfriend she says that its not her problem..but its the girlfriends problem. I don’t know any girl that wants to have sex as much as she does. Its crazy. Everything that IVe told you when it comes to the cheating all started about 6 months ago. Before that, she was always saying how happy she was in her marriage. Until she saw her ex. Ok ive said tons here..Thanks for reading
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 3:44am
blueskies says:
HI Slappster:)x Welcome to love fraud.
I hope you are doing things to distance and protect yourself from this woman. People on here have mentioned that it is important that you don’t let on that you have her ‘number’, it could put you in the firing line, what ever she ‘IS’ is not important – just quietly STEP AWAY from the dangerous creature!:)x
[This has made me think - there is something that keeps nagging at me when i hear about people describing their S/P's with alcohol and drug addictions, sex addictions, promiscuity. The alcohol does not maketh the sociopath, the sex addiction does not, being a promiscuous person does not?... I would not want to write someone off as a sociopath just because the had a drink problem, or had a high libido ... my s/p displayed all of these traits though... I need to read more to get my thoughts straight about all this and where it all fits in - thank for the food for thought]
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:08am
OxDrover says:
Dear Slapster,
you X-friend (co-worker) sounds like she displays many traits of a personality disordered person, or “cluster B”–there are several different varities of “personality” disorder as well as there being some contention about the “names” for them, but none of that really matters, she is definitely TOXIC and seems uncaring about her children and her husband.
Since you were warned about her fiove or six years ago it appears that she has been about this kind of behavior for some time and others at work are “on to” her lack of trustworthyness.
Her “sharing” all this information about her activities with you, to me, shows she likes having an AUDIENCE for her bad behavior as well as doing the bad behavior. Quite frankly, I think anyone who was HALF-WAY normal, if they did any of these things, wouldn’t tell ANY ONE, much less tell all of such chaotic bad behavior.
Fighting and “winning” against these people is usually not possible, unfortunately as there is no low to which they will not sink. My suggestion is that you go NO CONTACT with her as much as possible at work and 100% NO CONTACT with her outside of work. Do not take her calls, e mails or texts, and do not speak TO HER OR ABOUT HER.
She may go around tattlling “tales” at work, or other places, but my suggestion on those is to ignore them, and if someone tries to tell you somethign she said or did, just casually, but firmly say “Oh, I really don’t want to discuss that balderdash about ‘Jane said, I said’ it’s not worth my time.” If the person keeps on wantting to talk about it, just look them in the eye and say FIRMLY “I have nothing to say about Jane or TO jane. Period.”
I know sometimes this is difficult when they are trying to “pick a fight” or are “gossiping” about you, but taking the “high road” if at all possible will be lthe ultimate WIN!
Welcome to love fraud, learn more about these creeps, KNOWLEDGE=POWER and the more you know the easier it is to protect yourself from getting involved with them in any way! again, Welcome.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 9:20am
slappster says:
thank you ..you are so right..unfortunatly I have to see her everyday and take report from her. But I keep it strictly business. she tried to ask me how I was doing and such but I kept it simple and said Im fine. I know how she works. SHe is aggressive..she believes her own fears to be real. I have to see her today. but thankfully only for 30 min.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:03pm
Tilly says:
blueskies:
Alcoholism, drug addiction and sex addiction are two different things entirely from being a psychopath. Needless to say, the statistics for being a psychopath would HAVE to be higher for all three types of people.
Unfortunately, from what I have experienced and seen in my short little life, a sober, straight psychopath is ten million times more dangerous than a drunk or drugged one. They are alert, intelligent, cunning, patient and much more unpredictable. They usually live their life without being found out. The rooms of AA and NA and SA are full of them. And I mean FULL.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:26pm
OxDrover says:
Tilly, I was reading some research DNA stuff today and there is a DNA “marker” that seems (has not yet been “proven”) to mark for SEVERE ALCOHOLISM AND PPD. I thought that was an interesting thought, maybe all those “dry drunks” are the WORST of the WORST that are still making it in the free world (i.e. not in prison). I’ve been reading some interesting things on the research of Dr. Kent Kiehl (New Mexico) and some of his research on convict PPDs, convict non-PPDs and non-convicts matched for IQ, education etc with the convict NON-PPDs and using MRI scans of the brains. He is seeing some big differences in the brain’s activities and the way it is made up. Still NO PROOF that is “accepted” that you could just MRI them and “diagnose” but he is hoping that at some point a drug will be found to target those specific areas of the brains in order to diminish their acting out behavior. It would be a godsend if he could do such a thing.
There are also concerns too, of if you could “diagnose” them as “brain abnormal” are they still “responsible” for their behavior legally?
The current research going on about psychopathy (one site said that it has only a little bit of money compared to other mental problems that cause much less “problems” for society) is very interesting to me. Wish i could come back in 100 years and see what all they have found out!
Too late to help most of us thought. LOL
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 6:49pm
slappster says:
so work was very scary today. I walked up to get report, she said to the nurse..to watch the monitor so she could take me in the med room and talk with her. I follow her in there. She looks me in the eye and asks me “are you upset about something” I said “absolutly not” Im Fine” She says well then why are you ignoring me? why didn’t you say goodbye to me yesterday? I said “im here to take report and do my job” She said fine. So then she is acting really strange to me. she give report then trys to tell me Im wrong about a something but I proved to her I was correct. So then she says Bye. I was busy talking to someone else so I didn’t say Bye once again . I can’t pretend to be nice to her like as in chitchatting ..I am strictly keeping in work related. Im not rude but Im not talkative to her. I can’t put on a phoney smile to her. Im not like that. Anyways she screwed up on a bunch of orders today so I had to write her up twice because it was a major risk on 2 different patients that didn’t get their meds/ She is gettng many nurses mad at her. She is very mean to many people. most people are scared of her. She act like she’s a manager but she’s not. she’s just a secretary. Although she tells people outside of work she’s an RN :/
Well The day I say “bye” to her is the day she gets fired..then we will all be happy
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 2:24am
Tilly says:
Oxy:
Dr Kiehl is on the ball. Lets hope he/someone comes up with a resolution as well.
If a large percentage of the judges weren’t psychopaths then of course all our psychopaths would be held accountable..for what else is there to do with them.. but to institutionalise them in some way, for the rest of us to stay safe?
A lot of psychologist/psychiatrists here say the opposite, i.e. that sociopath/clusterB’s (especially borderlines) have the biggest money, reading material and interest by the medical profession and society of all the personality disorders. I’ve yet to see it.
slappster:
If I were in your shoes I would get a transfer or change my job. The very least that I would do is “pretend ” to be nice to her and say “bye”.
She will not get fired. But the situation will escalate.
Good luck with that.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 2:41am
blueskies says:
Slapster that sounds chilling. This is tricky but I am inclined to agree with Tilly.x I hope she gets bored with you if you keep up the NC and attaches to someone else or leaves of her own accord. Her predatory and bullying behavior towards you , taking you on one side isolating and attacking like that is VERY scary.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 5:40am
Jen2008 says:
The AMA estimates approximately 75% of psychopaths are dependent on alcohol and 50% abuse other drugs? So if you are with a psychopath, since 3/4’s of them are alcoholics, you have a slim chance of having one who does not abuse alcohol. And you have a 50-50 chance of getting one who does not abuse drugs. So chances are if you have a P on your hands, you also have an alcoholic or drug abuser on your hands because that isl staggeringly high %’s on them being alcohol or drug abusers.
Of course those figures are the % of p’s thought to be a or d abusers NOT the % of alcoholics or drug addicts thought to be psychopathic. I haven’t seen any statistics on what % of alcoholics or drug addicts are thought to be psychopathic, has anyone else?
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 7:23am
blueskies says:
I would be very interested to know. great post Jenn:)x
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 7:28am
OxDrover says:
Jen,
I don’t think there is any way to determine (at this point in time anyway) just how many psychpaths there ARE percentage wise, much less how many people are alcohol and/or drug addicted and NOT psychopathic.
Personally, my take on it is: AVOID PSYCHOPATHS sooooo
Since a high percentage of the ones we know are alcoholics and/or drug addicts—avoid ALL such people. That way you are most likely to be able to spot this before you are damaged by it, and NO ONE who is alcohol addicted or drug addicted is LIKELY to be a good relationship fit with anyone who is not.
Since we know ALL psychopaths are liars, i.e. 100% of them in all the studies—I avoid ALL liars. Of course, not every person who tells a lie is a psychopath (I have told a few myself) but if you DO avoid ALL liars you are most likely to stay away from psychopaths. I do except children or the “social lie” that consists of TACT, for example, when given a dish to taste and you don’t like it, of saying something like “Oh, that’s interesting” instead of saying “I could barely choke that down without puking!”
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 10:42am
Rosa says:
The American Medical Association is made up of physicians and medical students. Therefore, the information & statistics put out by the AMA are always changing/evolving, based on new studies/research findings.
This is a great thing when it comes to the subject of psychopathy. I don’t know if I trust the accuracy of their statistics (on psychopathy) at the present time.
After all, these stats are coming from the same doctors who mis-diagnose personality disorders for OCD (or something else) on a consistent basis, and who are conned by the psychopaths themselves.
I agree with Tilly. A sober, clean, psychopath is a whole different breed. There is no way a clean, sober psycho. will ever be represented in any statistic (unless they commit a crime). They are way too cunning, intelligent, and manipulative to get caught or be exposed.
But, just because they are not included in the statistics, does NOT mean they don’t exist!
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 2:30pm
slappster says:
I would transfer but Im not going to..I know she is on her last leg.,.both my managers are sick to death of her..Im pretty close to one of my managers..she tells me what this sociopath says about me. They are watching her like a hawk. She’s missed too many days because she is an alcoholic and stays up all night to be with men she meets. By the way..she never uses protection which is dangerous for the men she is with. Im just going to be very professional and if I say bye to her and that will keep her from attacking me then Ill do it..but I don’t think that will solve the problem. She always has to have a victim. Now Im the new victim. The last victim is still there because I talked to her and told her to stay strong..someday she will attack someone else..well haha I didn’t know it was going to be me so soon. Im a strong person. Ive grown up with a sociopath..my father. I can definatly handle this. Thank you for all of your information about this. Its very helpful..Ill keep you all posted on what happens next.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 2:36pm
Escapee says:
Rosa
You mentioned mis-diagnosis and how some disorders are labelled OCD. I am very interested in this aspect as it was a big part of my experience and I think the whole OCD thing is very significant (for me anyway – not mine!). Do you have any links re this? Thought I’d ask.
Thanks.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:37am
Escapee says:
PS
If you’ve seen ‘Sleeping with the Enemy’ – you’ll get something of the picture I was living with!
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:37am
Tilly says:
Slappster:
It is just when you think that they are on their “last legs” that they seeem to get a whole new “second wind” and their ability to stay on and on is mind boggling. At least , if your father was a psychopath then you know what to expect. At least that is one advantage, I suppose.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:42am
Tilly says:
Oxy:
I will be going back to uni next week. One of my teachers there that I complained about before, is a full blown psychopath. They had got rid of her at the end of the last semester as her mask fell long enough for them to get a glimpse.
However, they couldn’t replace her and she has just sent me a whole bunch of really sickening emails telling me that she is coming back. She went on and said that she will be teaching my class and “will I support her as she needs it bla bla”..and trying to get info from me of whats going on there, etc.
I sent back an “appropriate” email, to cover myself for the time being.
The subject she is teaching is a “core/foundation” subject so that it has to be done to get the degree. Last time she taught I did the “idolising” strategy, I got high distinctions but it ruined my physical and mental health as it was torture.
I figure Im due to be discarded and devalued at some stage . At the moment she “needs” me, but it is full blown psychopath. A sober, very intelligent, cunning, egocentric full blown psychopath.
Should I just not do this subject in the hope that someone else will teach it next year?
Should I do it and do the “your my hero” stategy again?
I only found out today and I have had stomach cramps, migraine and diarrhea ever since.
If I DON”T do it, and she stays on to teach it again then I am in for a beating…if you know what I mean.
I need help with this decision. At the moment she is doing the, “I am going to give you a high mark so what do you want me to teach you and I will teach it to the whole class…but you must obey my every whim for the next 15 weeks,” routine, ( of course she has said this in different words).
This is a big turning point for me. What should i do? I have no idea when it comes to my own dilemma.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:02am
blueskies says:
Hi Tilly, I know Oxy will be able to advise you more than I . x
But I meant to ask you how your art work was coming on, It sounds fantastic.x
Like with others on here it REALLY pisses me off when people are forced away from jobs they love or courses they love by these creatures. But I guess you have to weigh it up in your own mind and do what kathleen described as a ‘risk assessment’.
When i was at Uni, my relationships with my tutors were just professional ones, me student you teacher (some of them were grumpy sods and some of them were not particularly reliable, and some of them just put you to sleep in lectures… BUT no S/Ps;), I never gave mine or had their personal e-mails and I believe I was marked fairly, according to the course criteria and marking systems and my marks reflected the amount of effort and imagination I put in to MY WORK. Not how much I ass kissed the tutor. But I dont believe any of them were S/Ps! Thank god!
I do find, however that the Art world outside of uni, particularly the contemporary art world, is full of people who will only allow you ‘in’ based on your willingness to massage their ego’s rather than your talents or ability.Sigh.
She sounds like she is being too intimate with you, and being unprofessional at the very least (how can she promise high marks for work not undertaken?!) is there a way you can re-balance the student teacher relationship without getting ’stung?’
I think this is TOUGH and like I said it makes me shout swears at the screen when I think that this person could STOP or DELAY OUR TILLY in pursuing a goal she has been working hard towards.
Then again the thought of you exhausting yourself jumping through hoops instead of being able to focus on your studies also makes me swear.
I know you will come to the right descision for YOU in the long run.x
xxxx
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:35am
Tilly says:
Thankyou blueskies:
The day I started this course I had this teacher and she told me that we had already met. ( I have no recollection of this whatsoever, and I am positive I have never met her). But she knew a lot about me when i was younger (I had an acting/modelling career and she said she knew me from then). What I am saying is, from that dayon she singled me out. I knew immediately I was dealing with a cluster B but it wasn’t until much later that I realised she is a psychopath.
I also don’t know if I will have to leave later on anyway, (because of the WPProgramme), so its all very disappointing in regards to my art work.
I have handed it over to God but my body hasn’t! I am so physically ill (since I heard she was coming back )that I havn’t been able to go out anywhere at all.
Thankyou so much for your faith in me. I have none at all tonight!
If i showed the emails she has sent to me to the uni she would be fired on the spot. But I would indirectly be firing myself along with her. I’ve dealt with these situations before…but never SUCCESSFULLY! That is why I am asking for help on this one. My art is very dear to me and I have been doing so well with it this year.
I’m good at seeing other peoples dangers’ blueskies, but hopeless at seeing my own!
But the days that I am really happy, I sing “blue skies, nothing but blue skies from now on!” And I really mean it!
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 8:02am
Rosa says:
Escapee:
I don’t have any links, unfortunately. But, I understand what you are saying.
“Sleeping with the Enemy” is a must-see.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 8:17am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tilly,
I read your post about the teacher, and I think that your response depends on what you are up for. I know you are a really strong person. I also know that you have been through a lot, and the physical reactions you’re getting right now suggest that your body is simply rebelling. You can intellectually play with the idea of putting yourself in this woman’s sphere of influence again, but your nervous system is saying, “Are you out of your f~king mind?”
If it were me, I’d start with a mental position of “No, I’m not going to do this” And then figure out how you’re going to get away with it and still finish the program. And letting her win is not an option.
That puts you in the realm of being a sociopath to deal with a sociopath. Which is good. You want to be effective, that’s all. Not making a lot of noise, or starting a movement (unless that’s helpful to you). This is just about you getting what you want.
And then, if it were me, I would put on a nice, humble, friendly, non-combative face and visit the dean (not your advisor), and say that you will doing anything to meet your academic requirements, anything at all, but you cannot be in this person’s class again. Emphasize your respect for the school and your deep appreciation of all the other teachers and the program they offer. And say that all you want to do is complete your degree program.
If the dean says that there is no other option. Ask if s/he is saying that the only way to obtain the degree there is through this teacher. And that everything you have done there so far, the money that has been paid, and the work you have done is now basically placed at risk, because she is the gatekeeper to you moving forward? And you have no other choice but to place your academic career in this person’s hands?
And if the dean says yes, then stand up and prepare to leave, and say that you will have to consult with your attorney.
If the dean asks if you have evidence or material reason to want to avoid this teacher, say that you do not want to get into a court room situation with this woman. Or any kind of administrative or academic challenge. You understand the relative power of your positions, and you do not want that kind drama in your school life. And you don’t want to embarrass or harm the school or anyone else. You just want to be able to complete your degree with no further contact with this person, and you want her to have no further influence on your progress.
Re-emphasize your willingness to do whatever is necessary to meet the requirements, short of taking another class with her. And tell him or her that if he discusses this with her and then if you are forced to take this class, you can guarantee that this will be the end of your success at the university.
If he says that you must start some kind of formal inquiry about her to get out of the class, agree to do it. Tell him it is your last choice, because the legal assistance will cost you money and you suspect that you will not be the only person who will appear to give evidence.
And then repeat that the only thing you are asking for is a way to get out of studying under this person.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:32am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Sorry, I didn’t mean to post that. I didn’t get a chance to edit it. The point of all this is one thing.
You draw a line with whoever has power over this situation, in the nicest and least confrontational way possible. And you say what you want. You want to finish your degree without further encounter with this teacher.
You make a point out of wanting to do it in the least disruptive way possible for the school. And you make a point about your commitment to the school and the program.
And whatever the answer is, you don’t take the class.
If you really don’t want to get into an administrative spitting match with this person, don’t get pulled into sharing your evidence. Just dig in and say that it is equivalent to throwing your degree away to take the class with her, and you are willing to do anything else to complete your requirements.
I know that you’re only a student, but I also know you. This is one of those “just say no” situations. If you don’t finish the degree now, you can wait to take the class until they change the teacher. If the class is a prerequisite for others, ask to get into the other classes by special permission. Advise any other teacher that wants to go to her for a reference on you that you have a pending action against her, and tell the deal that you will do that.
Again, you’re not trying create trouble. You are just trying to salvage your degree.
This is not going to be easy. You are being targeted. Again. But if you want to stop it, you’re going to have to draw a line.
At least that’s my initial impression.
Good luck with it.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:49am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
Go back adn read BETTY’s story (it is a thread here) of course she did not know at the time what she was dealing with, but look at the results.
Back when I was in 2nd year of my basic nurisng degree, I encountered a teacher for one of my classes that I had to take and mad eit through the semester with this woman. At the end of the semester, I knew I could never kiss this woman’s arse the way she wanted it kissed for the next two years…I ended up driving 40 miles one way further and transferred to another University.
I saw her destroy other students (primarily men) all the while pretending to be so caring and concerned and trying t o”help” them grasp the concepts of the class—they got the concepts all right, she hated men! Her grading was SUBJECTIVE rather than objective. Her class was set up so only her OPINION of your work mattered.
After I left one man that she was flunking teamed up with some A female students and went to the dean and “won” that round, but this woman was a flaming psychopath if ever there was one and she was “clean and sober” too, and very CUNNING. I never did have any regrets about leaving and it was one of the FEW times I LISTENED TO MY GUT and ran like a rabbit.
Since ART WORK (and I assume that is what you are studying) is very SUBJECTIVE in what is “good” and what is “not good” rather than like math 2+2=4 is RIGHT, so it is difficult to prove that they are “persecuting” you because they can keep the mask up.
I wish I had an “answer” or even an OPINION on what you should do to handle it. I have found that kissing up to them at times (when you know it will be short term and know that there is an END in sight) worked for me once when I had a psychopathic boss on a project that I iknew would END, so I just kept a “stiff upper lip” went in to work, smiled and acted like “I didn’t notice that you are being snide to me” It was very difficult, but I think knowing what I know NOW I could have done it with less stress to myself than I had at that time.
UNCERTAINTY is to me what causes the worst stress….like WONDERING IF I have cancer to me would be more stressful than KNOWING I had cancer. If you, in my opinion, KNOW what you are dealing with, and know that it is simply for a short time, then you can “adjust” your stress by assuring yourself that it “isn’t forever” but if you stress over the decision…should I this, should I that???….etc stress gets worse.
I suggest you look at in “worst case scenario”
Worst case if I take the class with her as an instructor is______ (fill in the blank) Would it be, I flunk the class and have to take it over?
Worst case if I don’t take the class with her this semester is that I have to take the class with her next year as the instructor.
Worst case if I “out her” to the administration she is a WORSE ENEMY and she knows I am on to her and goes after me.
Etc.
Then Look at the advantages of each situation.
I have the ADVANTAGE of knowing what she is, and I can look at this like a “game” and NOT let this witch control my emotions and my stress….I can take the class, go into the classroom, ACT CIVIL to her, and go home at night and laugh at such a miserable character as she is and thank my God I am NOT her!
For the past several years I have had to “be nice” to a P because it was to my potential advantage to do so. I have had to PRETEND I DIDN[‘T NOTICE when she woujld do something “tacky” to me, etc. It was somewhat of a stress, but more and more as I realized what a piece of chit she was, and actually got to the point that if it turned out that me standing up fo rmyself meant I lost the possible advantage of her husband’s testimony in a civil court case pending, then so be it.
The case was settled recently, so no there is NO possible advantage in me not confronting her face on if she ever slitheres out from under her rock and shows up here again, but looking back, I think all the stress I felt about NOT confronting her was more self imposed than external.
It’s your decision, but if it were me (in the stage I am in now with the “give a chit factor”) I would take the class, be “nice” and “polite” but not overly friendly and NOT gossip with her etc or pal around with her after class etc. just be POLITELY NEUTRAL , and worse case she gives you a ration of chit and you drop the class in the middle of semester, or go to the dean then.
To me, it isn’t the poison snake you SEE that is a problem, but the one in the grass that you DON’T SEE.
The stress factor is the biggie I think, too….can you do this and control your INTERNAL STRESS and worry? That is what I would use to decide. ((((hugs)))))
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:51am
ANewLily says:
Tilly, I think both Kathy and Oxy have given you great advice. Not clear cut because you still have to make the decisions but great ideas and reasons.
From my one experience with a blankedy-blank professor, I might not advise dropping the class altogether except for this one semester and then hoping for a better teacher next time.
By dropping my class due to my REFUSAL to sit in his class and listen to FILTHY FILTHY jokes instead of learning the last 3 credits of Spanish I needed for the Master’s degree, I inadvertently gave up that degree forever. I did go to the dean (who was sympathic and kind) but the guy had TENURE and even she couldn’t do anything about it — and he was the ONLY one who couold teach that advanced level class.
Would I do it again? Yes, because I couldn’t “tolerate” him and my at home EVIL MONSTER at the same time and remain sane.
I think you are stronger than I was at the time. I believe in your ability to make a tood decision based on your GUT instincts.
I’m thinking and praying for you in this decision!!
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 11:55am
Tilly says:
Thank you so much KH, Oxy and ANewLily!
I made an appointment with the convenor of the course and then cancelled it as the psychopath is “best mates with them “. On the way out from reception I bumped into a teacher in the art department who I knew to be fairly neutral and blurted out my story. (A “euphamized” version).
He said it was too late to replace her as it all comes down to money. He said there was another teacher ( the original guy that I was going to go to.. the course convener) that was going to be taking the subject WITH her and that he would tell him that he HAS to “moderate ” the psychopaths behaviour. (Apparently he has the power to do this). He promised he wouldn’t tell anyone that it came from me. I believe that he won’t tell the main players, so there is a chance it stays anonymous. But the convenor “moderating” her behaviour is a bit of a joke, because she is so up his a#se! He is a really good teacher and a nice guy with no idea what he is dealing with. He is young and new to our uni.
We don’t have a “dean” in Oz. Its a different set up. We have someone in charge of each course and we have humanities/welfare officers (counselors) but we don’t have a “dean” so to speak. The counselors just “listen” and confirm they understand and record complaint. Thats it.
But the real reason I would NEVER make a formal complaint (re court etc) is because i have been so badly legally abused when i was totally innocent that just the thought of it makes me vomit literally.
I know if I “played the game” there is a good chance I will pass without having a breakdown. But “the game” is just like selling my soul. I can easily do the work, the subject, the art…I deserve the High Distinction and would get it from any teacher in that subject. But its not about the work with the psychopath. Its about making eye contact continually for four hours straight and pretending that her “speeches” and tears and tantrums and performances for manipulation and narcissistic supply are “right” and justified and that she deserves applause. Its having the rest of the class decide I am like her, because i am approving of her insane behaviour.
I have enrolled in another subject and stayed in her subject… So that I have still made NO choice yet. Just one baby step that could bring me undone if she finds out.
Your right oxy, the not deciding is worse than anything. but when i think about my erratic behaviour last term due to her whims and the tension in her class, it was hideous. You could hear a pin drop, and it wasn’t because she was interesting. She was devaluing the whole class (except me and whoever i befriended on the day) and it was sickening. I told you I am way overdue to be devalued and discarded. This is round three in the ring. Driving fourty miles would be my pleasure if I could do this subject with someone else.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 5:19pm
Tilly says:
Oxy:
If I don’t take the class this semester and have to do it with her next..you know I will be in for it, so I just wouldn’t. Can she keep on her mask for the whole of round three? especially since it slipped off last time? She will be ten times more vigilant.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 5:31pm
OxDrover says:
Tily, the only thing I can say is that once I had to take a temporary job in a location with the hospital that I knew would be temporary, I was working for an N physician and his P wife (she was office manager) it was horrible from DAY !, they treated me and patients like dog doo, I kept on smiling and being “sweet” and kept my REAL opinions to myself, I just kept saying inside my head “this is a game” IT IS TEMPORARY, I CAN DO IT, IT ISN’T FOREVER, I WONT’ LET THEM STAND IN MY WAY—I CAN TAKE IT.
Yes, it was a stressful 3 months that was over 15 years ago. This man has been outed by his peers as a jerk, andhis wife who has now advanced to over ALL the rural clinics and has spread pain, grief and despair where ever she went still reigns supreme with the powers that be, but everyone under her knows what a hateful person she is.
Several times, her husband has been severely EMBARASSED for mistreatinig staff, in fact, he was embarassed so badly a year and a half ago that they actually sold his practice and left that town. Interestingly enough, they tried to get him into another clinic and were STOPPED because the physician working there knew about them (partly from me and also from Mrs. P being the clinic administrator) so even with all of mrs. P’s power, she was not able to save her husband’s face.
They may never get what is really coming to them, but you know what, they haven’t skated “scot free” either.
I was able to survive those miserable 3 months by just talking myself into it. It WAS difficult, the same way it was difficult to get through that one semester with a woman I knew was a first class WITCH *(now I know P) but looks to me like you might be able to give it a try, and worst case, “drop” the class because of your “health” or something if it gets too bad. ((((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 7:05pm
Betty says:
Hi, Tilly!
I’m Betty, that Oxy mentioned. The post is link is http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....g-monster/
Your situation is far more hopeful than mine, because you are armed with knowledge from LoveFraud and you have thought out dealing with n/p/s people very well. I didn’t know what I was dealing with, and acted out of ignorance. As Oxy says, “Knowledge is Power.”
I could not break through the professor’s wall of dupes at the uni – she’s been there 30 years, and done a very good job of enlisting even the dean, so that all complaints about her circle right back to her. You try to make even a complaint, and find you can’t.
Someone has listened to you, and that’s so good. Just keep your guard up: I can’t emphasize enough how much universities seem to be hot beds of gossip. Maybe it’s different where you are; but here, one must “keep it professional” — just as if you were at work.
I lost a lot in my encounter. I’m still in job search, and have massive student debts for a degree I didn’t get. When I can eventually take a master’s, it will be at a uni that offers off-site courses via computer, so I don’t have close contact with the instructor. That’s where this has left me — I can do the work, but I won’t deal with their personal dramas again. I still have PTSD, and last week, I woke up screaming like a grade-B movie queen, but it wasn’t funny — I was in the grip of terror. Our bodies do tell us off BIGtime when we’re staying in a place that’s bad for us.
I hope you have great success — you’ve received solid feedback and advice — and here’s hoping you continue to kick tush and take names at school! It will be my pleasure to dance the Happy Dance with you here at LoveFraud when you graduate!
Take good care of you. Good Luck.
Very best wishes!
Betty
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:05pm
slappster says:
tonight was a bit better. My manager agrees with me that my coworker is a true sociopath. The sociopath didnt say one word to me. She actually chose to work in the front station rather than the back..so I didnt have to take report from her. But tomorrow is another day with her and I will have to take report from her. I think she knows That she can’t screw up right now at all. She’s already on a written warning from the managers.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 1:48am
Tilly says:
Oxy and Betty:
Thankyou so so much for caring enough to be there for me on this one. ” I saw a self-possessed, controlled and controlling, smooth, charming, poised academic turn into a snarling, spitting monster within literally a second. ” Yep! THATS HER!! Thats when she dropped the mask and got told there was no work left for her at the moment. But God has sent her back into my life to make the choice. Round three. Will I go back into the ring? I promised myself the first semester I wouldn’t. I promised myself the 2nd semester I wouldn’t. Of course it was ten times worse than previously. The other teacher will “enable ” her…not “moderate” her.
If I pull out half way thru the semester I will be failed. I have two weeks to decide whether to stay in her class. You can bet her first three classes will be the charming, funny, open minded teacher she acts so well. After that it will be all a nightmare.
Am I up to the task? Definitely not. But as Oxy says, I am going to give it a try. Maybe I can stay under the radar for half the semester and kiss her a#se for the rest. Worst case scenario is I will fail by pulling out half semester and have to do it again some other day. One things for sure Betty :
I will NEVER be on my own with her, or accept an invitation to go ANYWHERE within a hundred miles of her home or her letterbox or her dog!!
LUV YUS!! (((HUGS)))) and THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:23am
Tilly says:
mind you…I could change my mind in a second on this one!
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:25am
Rosa says:
You can do this, Tilly.
There is a possible silver lining here.
This might be the perfect opportunity to start channelling all of your stess and anxiety about this P instructor into your art work.
You have already done the “Face of God”, right?
This semester sounds like a good time to start working on the “Face of Lucifer”, or the “Face of Hades”, or “Medusa”.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 8:38am
slappster says:
well my “s” coworker struck again. She now moved in on my close friends. And what shocked me yesterday was that she attacked one of my other coworkers that is a friend to me. She tried to get her introuble with the bosses when my coworker had nothing to do with a certain situation with a patients family. Not only did she fly off the roof out loud in front of everyone..she yelled at the family of the patient. Then she askes my coworker who came to work for me while I was a doctors appt, “How come nobody asked me about you working for her” as if she’s some kind of authority? WoW. My problem is I thought my manager understood her since she told me she did..but now..Im finding out that my Sociopath coworker is spending a lot of time in my managers office..joking around and talking , gossiping..this is what others have told me. So now I can’t trust my manager..but I do have someone I know I can trust and she’s strictly by the book..My managers manager. The one I told you all about is my assistant manager..where My main manager is the one everyone knows is by the book. She’s doesn’t gossip and she doesn’t get too close to the employees like my assistant manager. Its nice that she talks to me and tells me what the sociopath said about me BUT how do I know she won’t tell the sociopath what I have said about her? Im starting to really hate my job. Thank God there are more than few people on my floor that know this coworker is a true sociopath.
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 12:47pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Slapster,
That’s the thing with them is that they will try and try and try and NEVER GIVE UP and make trouble as long as they are around. I am a retired advanced practice nurse, so I pretty well know what you are talking about. I have dealt with some of the same stuff time and time again—It is difrficult to know who to trust. I wrote up one particular aid for leaving the floor without notifying me (as charge nruse) and be gone for 4 hours time and time again, and NOTHING WAS DONE ABOUT HER. she did not do her job, spent all day on her cell phone arranging her sex life which was forbidden for her to do, but she did in plain sight and the upper management did NOTHING. Finally she was FIRED after months and months of this. The problem is when you ahve a person who is like your co-worker, they make the whole place miserable and make others not only have to work twice as hard, but be unhappy at the same time, and patient care is what suffers most.
My observation is that hospitals and medical clinics are OFTEN a haven for these people and rather than clean house and get rid of these bad employees, the management lets them drive off the good ones. It is a shame. I am sorry I have no answer for what you could do to help yours situation, because I don[‘t. In all my years and years of experience I have never seen any good come out of a situation like this. Sorry, but I definitely can imagine what you are going through. Welcome to my X-world, being retired and away from all this crap is WONDERFUL!!
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 1:03pm
slappster says:
yea thank you..I just talked to another nurse I work with and she and I both come to realize that there is NOTHING that we can do. One of my friends that was pretty close to me who is also a union rep, well she is now hanging out with the sociopath as well as hanging out in my assistant managers office gossiping. After everything weve agreed on about her being a sociopath,, The sociopath won her over..But thank God I have another union Rep that is trustworthy. And the main manager that is trustworthy. Hopefully I will find another job soon. I can’t deal with it anylonger. But for now Ill stay low and keep my mouth shut at work. Im sure the sociopath will eventually get fired..she can’t not be a mean person to people. Hopefully it will bite her in the ass sooner than later.
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 3:04pm
libelle says:
Dear Slapster, welcome to the club! I can so relate to what you are experiencing now. I also work in a hospital, and a head nurse (P) there is a pure evil dragon. She tried to mob me although I am not dependent on her (I am a MD).
I learned not to take it personally, be strictly polite but not too friendly with everybody and to not reveal ANYTHING personal about myself. I do not trust ANYBODY and concentrate on my work and on the patients. No gossip, and as much NC as possible (I loved gossip, but I learned to hate it when it is used as a weapon! I leave it to the tabloids at the hairdresser’s).
Good luck! You seem to do a great job, much more difficult under such stress, and I wish you a relaxing weekend!
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 4:11pm
slappster says:
thank you libelle, I learned the hard way about gossip. I did get into the gossip thing back when I didn’t know who I was dealing with..It always leads to bad. No gossip for me any longer. Its sooo easy to get caught up into it..Even Some of our MD’s get caught into the gossip game a very small amount of MD’s that is. Yes now that I really think about it I do NOT trust Most of the people there..except I do trust My aunt who works there I know my main Manager is trustworthy as in not telling other coworkers what another said about them. And then one other girl there who has been a victim of the sociopath longer than anyone. I talked her out of quitting a while ago because I didn’t want that sociopath to win her..this other victim is such a good person and a great employee. She has been through so much and nobody helped her until I called her and told her I know whats going on. The sociopath tried to get me against her by telling me that this other victim was talking bad about me..I know the sociopath was lying..she’s good at lying..but not good enough to full me.. the other victim cried and I told her Im not going to let that sociopath get to her any longer..but WOW Now Im the victim haha. I knew someday The sociopath and I would have it out but not this soon. Monday I go back to work and I wonder how it will be..Its a bit scary but Iwill be strong and stay professional as best I can.
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 4:33pm
slappster says:
excuse my typo lol..I said full me when I meant Fool me ..im tired ..its been a stressfull week..
have a great relaxing weekend yourself
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 4:37pm
HurtMoM says:
Is there any mothers out there that have a daughter that is a sociopath. My 37 year old daughter is one. She has been in the Air Force for 18 years. I never saw her mask slip until she was stationed in the U.S. She had been overseas for 16 years.
She has tried to have her Dad put in jail accusing him of molestation of our granddaughter. Proved to be false and just another lie she made up. I have seen in her eyes the empty soul. It is like an alien has taken over her body.
When I was in the hospital she turned off my pain medicine after my colon surgery. All the time playing like she did not do anything. She has turned my son, my sister-in-law and nephew against me.
I have not been around her in two years. How does a mother go through life feeling she will never see her daughter again.
I have reacurring dreams that she has taken my baby girl away from me and will not return her.
How does a mother go on with life in this situation?
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Tuesday, 28 July 2009 @ 4:46pm
ANewLily says:
Dear HurtMoM, I feel so sad for you. My adult children have sunned me due to the smear campaign (and lies) of their narcissiopath father and I have survived. I know the pain (actually grief) of not having contact with my children.
However, none of them are socios, meanng they are not mean or vindictive., just trainwashed. I had to decide to give up my grief and turn it into acceptance and try to live my new life alone. A year ago, after about 6 years of silence, one daughter started to contact me. Now, recently, so have the other three. I have to add I don’t really trust any of them yet but at least it is a start.
However, there are other moms on this site who will surely see your plight and respond to you from their experiences.
In the meantime, welcome to LoveFraud. There is a lot of information for you to read — and learn.
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Tuesday, 28 July 2009 @ 5:12pm
OxDrover says:
Dear HurtMom,
I can relate to you, I have a P-son who is 38 and who has been in prison nearly 21 years, he is in for murder now, and even from his prison cell tried to ahve me murdered a couple of years ago. I literally had to flee my home to save my lfie.
Yes, they are EVIL, that is the only word I can think of to describe them, they ENJOY hurting us because they know we love(d) them. I have been NC with my son for over 2 years, and at first the pain was totally awful, but as I realized it, finally, I had “lost him” completely many years before. I grieved as if he was dead when he murdered the young woman he killed in 1991, yet, I still tried to believe he could be rehabilitated—if anything, he is more evil not less. He is actually PROUD of the pain and chaos he has caused, proud of killing that woman.
How do you cope? It isn’t easy, but I literally held a memorial service for my son as if he was dead, I “buried” him, grieved for him, and have come to acceptance that he is LOST to me, just as if he were physically dead. I miss that wonderful little boy, but the man is not the little boy, the man is a stranger, an evil stranger.
come here and read and read about the psychopaths, and realize that this is NOT CAUSED because you abused the daughter, it is more genetic than anything else, just as my P son is like my P-sperm donor, he was not abused…but he DID have a choice, it isn’t like they don’t know right from wrong, they DO, they just enjoy the evil.
God bless you HurtMom, stay round here and read and learn. There is much good support here. (((hugs)))) and God bless you.
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Tuesday, 28 July 2009 @ 8:51pm
slappster says:
so guess what?? its been a while since I posted here been going through alot at work. Manager doesn’t listen to us when we have a complaint. she instead tells us to handle a problem on our own instead of helping us out…well I was working last night and out of the blue..the sociopath calls me at work while its her day off..to tell me a bill collector called for me at work. She then says they wanted her to transfer them to HR! I told her to just hang up on them. She then says Well I just wanted to give you an FYI. I said thanks. She then says OH YOURE ARE VERY WELCOME! in a very excited way. Weird..so then My manager calls me the next day to tell me that I need to come into work and to have a union rep with. She says I have a harrassement case against me..I know its her. I have no enemies other than her and her friend who both use to be my friend. So said I can’t go to the meeting until Tues because my union rep won’t be back from vacation til TUes..so now Im on suspension until tues..Im like What the hell? I did nothing to this person..She called me! while I was working..and on her day off. I never called her. The only thing I can think of is that she’s saying im talking about her on the floor which is not true. But one time. With another coworker but I did appologize to this sociopath for talking about her. And basically It was the coworker who was doing all the talking. I just agreed. I am going to turn this around on her. She is harrassing me
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Thursday, 27 August 2009 @ 11:30pm
slappster says:
and when I did appologize for talking with another coworker, she accepted the appology but that was a while ago..like months ago. She is dangerous..this is the millionth time she’s filed complaints against coworkers..I would hope they will see the huge stack. Anyways my union rep is very good. And I hope he will make sure she doesn’t get away with it. I am just so curious on what grounds is she able to file such a complaint against me. Im going to make sure I get payed for these days off..when I turn this around.
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Thursday, 27 August 2009 @ 11:35pm
OxDrover says:
The grounds she will use are LIES, half truths and made up facts…it is what they always use.
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Thursday, 27 August 2009 @ 11:54pm
slappster says:
Im just wondering if I will lose my job over her lies. when i told my union rep who was the one I think is complaining. He said “oh wow..yes I do want to represent you” He knows what she’s like. He’s a good union rep..the managers don’t like him because he doesn’t take their crap.
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Friday, 28 August 2009 @ 12:08am
geminigirl says:
Dear Hurt Mom, How I feel for you! Both my daughters, {now 43 and 45}, are narc/sociopaths.It is very very hard to accept it. before I found Lovefraud, i thought I was losing my mind, and the pain and grief were just terrible. My younger daughter,C., I havent seen for 17 years. she has never once allowed me to see any of her 3 kids, now 13, 10, and one year old, not even as babies. She is a total control freak, has lived for 14 years with a rich jewish boy, but wont marry him. The “Mum in law, pays all the school fees, bought them a 3 million house in an exclusive area of Sydney, and 2 cars,{one for the Nanny}.My other daughter has used and abused me forover 25 years. She only rings if she wants money. With the support of LF, I went No contact with her, and have been for
a couple of months now. I set a couple of boundaries, and she hasnt honoured either of them, so I have to accept I may never see her again. I still feel guilt, even though I know she doesnt care a jot for me, and only uses me. her 3 kids are now living full time with her ex husband, as she has lost her job, her flat,has no car, no money, and has over A$20,000 in credit card debts. Ive given her over $10,000 in the last 3 years, it has to stop. I wrote to her to tell her,”The Mum bank is now closed”. Since then, I havent heard a peep out of her.
She is 45, still looks good,and as long as she can go on suckering people in, I suppose shell survive. She has lied, conned me out of huge sums of cash, causd me dreadful worry and anguish by her heartless behaviour. I now wonder what horrible people I gave birth to all these years ago. Up to the age of 10 or 12, they wer e normal, loving little girls. I feel ashamed to have given birth to such dreadful people, I dont recognise them, they lie, cheat, are snobbish, haughty, arrogant, cruel, uncaring, without kindness , empathy or compassion. I should feel sorry for them, but I feel sorrier for me, that I allowed them to treat me with such disrespect, cruelty, and contempt, for so long. NO MORE! Ive had enough. I now dont miss them. I havent seen the older one since last Xmas, and she only came because she conned $200 from me to hir a car, so th kids could come over to my place, have a lovely lunch, pocket their gifts, and leave within 2 hours. Havent seen her since that day.Jesus predicted that in the End times, the behaviour of children to their parents would be like this, and He was right! Its happening now! geminigirl.
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Friday, 28 August 2009 @ 9:07am
slappster says:
I talked to an former employee today she has been harrassed by the same sociopath as me. She will provide me a written letter she wrote to Human resourses back when she file the harrassment..apparently the sociopath file a counter harrassment case against her..resulting in my former coworker in leaving on stress leave and then quiting without notice. Its very sad but I think maybe things are going to work out in my favor..i have a list of things shes done.
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Saturday, 29 August 2009 @ 2:45am
slappster says:
excuse my typos..i meant filed not file :/
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Saturday, 29 August 2009 @ 2:47am
Outlier says:
It is important to realize that you can be fairly safe, as long as they don’t know you know.
My two sociopaths: sister and neighbour. Neither of them know I know. However, neither does the world who provides their N needs.
I realise I am facing a world of people who now see this extremely quiet person (me) suddenly become a malicious and destructive individual. All without talking to me, asking me questions, seeing me. They have all the info they need from my abusers. To this day nobody has spoken to me, but actively avoided me or cut out warmth in their communication.
Nobody has noticed where the constant source of lies/slander originate. Though what makes this complex is that my two abusers set up others to do their work, so I react at a complete outsider (eg my brothers). This outsider then reports back to abuser with ‘yes, you’re right about her, thanks for warning me’. So I am now isolated and will never be believed when I speak the truth.
Now I finally understand why for 25 years I used to divide the world into 3 groups: my abuser, 6 billion people and the thrid most destructive – the scores of people who are sucked into the abuser’s sticky web, who turn against me. They all ‘know something about me’ well before I meet them, so upon meeting them they show signs of wariness towards me. I thought I was crazy for thinking this. This is exactly sociopathic abuse well before I knew anything about the disorder.
It’s dealing with the 3rd group – whilst I want them to know what’s going on right under their nose, I fear that telling them will create more harm for me (so that’s a no). Are targets silenced forever? I am seeing how this is the best option (for the sake of my own physical/mental health).
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Friday, 11 September 2009 @ 10:56am
skylar says:
Outlier,
that is what happened to me as well.
Your solution will have to depend on all the variables in your particular situation. and you will have to be patient as opportunities arise.
What you have to do is become very well informed and versed on the subject of narcissism. Read as many books as you can. And then, without mentioning your sociopaths by name, simply bring up the subject to those people who seem to be receptive and who have time to listen. The theme of your discussion will be narcissism and slander. With enough discussion, people will eventually recognize for themselves who is an N and who isn’t.
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Friday, 11 September 2009 @ 12:01pm
slappster says:
I went to the meeting at work and provided tons of evidence that she’s been harrassing me..I completely turned the harrassement case around on her..They found out that I did nothing wrong..So I got payed for the 3 days I was suspended and they added on extra hours on my paycheck which I was happy about..on the other hand they gave her a warning..My union Rep put this sociopath in her place..He told her “you are the one who is harrassing her” By calling me at work..and tons of other things she’s done. she actually had the nerve to say “I don’t know why she filed the harrassement case” then My union rep says..are you kidding me? YOU ARE THE ONE WHO HAS DONE THIS! We are all sitting here today because you filed the case!” Then HR says “yes..you(meaning her) are the one who brought your personal issues into the work place” I was very pleased with the outcome of this situation with the sociopath..So now they are watching her. She’s walking on thin ice. I found out recently that she has a new victim to pick on..this girl was once her closest friend and now just as I thought she has victimized her like she did me. I just hope this other victim doesn’t let the sociopath get away with it. OH and check this out..this sociopath now want me and her to be like we use to be..”friends again” haha can you believe that..after she tried to get me fired? and calling me at work on her day off to provoke me?” Im just putting on a smile and keeping it strictly business. But Im staying clear from this sociopath. Well I just hope that Human Resources will not tolerate this sociopath another day. She is evil and even has a gun. I brought that up in the meeting as well.
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Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 2:38pm
imfree says:
Hello, I’m new on this post, but I too, have been touched by a psychopath. I met a beautiful, charming, woman, she worked in my same field, so we had a few things in common.
she came over, and I couldn’t get her to leave. She set me up, moved in, and made my life a living hell.
A demon, an enemy in my own house, everything is ok, while they are getting what they want, when they want, but if you fight back, watch out, they become the victim, the threats, and yelling begins, the violence creeps out, and you’ve got a hell of a problem. You can never confront them, because they
never answer any questions, you can’t trust them, they constantly lie, and then forget their lies, they mimic you,they say what you want to hear. They play different roles in order to get you to think how great they are. You know there is something wrong, but you can’t pinpoint it, they blame you
for everything that goes wrong. They don’t care about you, they have no remorse, no empathy, and they are very vindictive. They take control, use you, abuse you, make your life a living hell, and then some more. I got rid of her, but it wasn’t easy, I got arrested, harrassed, threatened, stalked,
she beat up my cat, and smashed its teeth, when I wasn’t around, Reality is you can’t fight back, because they find ways to screw you, and they usually win. I ended her games
got two people to witness her evil doings, got her out of my house, told her I was scared of her, and then I sent her a list of all the traits of the psychopath, telling her she had every single one of them. I exposed her, she knows I know.
She found someone else, I am finally free. They are very dangerous, My advice to people who are dealing with psychos
don’t, you can never win, don’t fight them, don’t entertain them, get them out of your life, no contact, no nothing,
expose them, be sure you have a couple of witnesses hanging around, and expect the worse, but once they know that you know, they have to find another prey. I’m still recuperating, it’s been a hard journey, thank you for these posts they help alot.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:13am
ErinBrock says:
Imfree:
welcome to LF…..you’ll find a lot of healing stories and articles here.
You sound very strong and quite educated and certainly NOT questioning your decision…in the least!
I commend you for that empowerment!
Keep learning, keep growing and remain strong.
Good to have you here posting.
Take good care of YOURSELF!!!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:31am
imfree says:
Thanks Erin,
I’m glad I found LF, … it’s nice to be able to share with other people that have been caught in a psychos web, hopefully
help them get out. I’ve read alot on this topic, and I’ve lived it
and it’s amazing how many of these Demons are out there
just waiting for the right person to destroy.
Hopefully, I can help others by sharing, there is life after a psycho, but its hard.
You have to find the strength, from wherever, and get them out of your life, the bottom line is it’s you or them.
Thanks
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 12:36am