Psychopaths and predatory memory
PDF When I was married to James Montgomery, who I believe is a psychopath, we once attended a local trade show together. We ran into a woman whom I didn’t know at all and James barely knew. After about one minute of conversation, James started offering to help her with some project that she was working on.
“What did you do that for?” I asked James after we continued on our way.
“What?”
“Offer to help that woman. You hardly know her.”
“Do you know who she’s married to?” James asked. It was a man that he believed could possibly be useful to his plans.
Psychopaths are always on the lookout for people they might be able to manipulate. A study published last year by Canadian researchers seems to indicate they have an enhanced ability to spot and remember potential targets.
The study was called A pawn by any other name? Social information processing as a function of psychopathic traits. It was conducted by Kevin Wilson and Sabrina Demetrioff, of Dalhousie University, and Stephen Porter of the University of British Columbia-Okanagan.
The study
The researchers created a series of fictional characters using photographs of men and women with expressions conveying that they were happy or sad. They assigned biographical traits to the characters indicating that some were successful and some were not, along with other details such as “likes skydiving.”
Forty-four male undergraduate students participated in the study. They were first given a personality test to determine their level of psychopathic traits. Then they were shown the photos and biographical information about the fictional characters. Afterwards, they were asked to recall the characters.
The researchers anticipated that the study participants with high psychopathic traits would best remember useful or vulnerable individuals—the happy, successful male was probably most useful, and the unhappy, unsuccessful female was probably most vulnerable.
The results
Study results indicated that they were partially correct. “Participants with high levels of psychopathic traits demonstrated enhanced recognition for the unhappy, unsuccessful female character; arguably the most vulnerable individual presented in our study,” they wrote. “In fact, the high-psychopathy participants demonstrated near-perfect recognition for this character.”
The researchers called this “predatory memory.”
“Psychopathic traits, even in the absence of overt criminality, are associated with a cognitive style that is predatory in nature,” the researchers concluded. “In extreme cases, this may allow individuals with clinically diagnosable levels of psychopathy to spot vulnerable individuals for future exploitation.”
Remember—the study subjects were not criminals in jail, they were college students. The conclusion we can draw is that people with psychopathic traits are out in the world, spotting potential victims and filing the information away for future use. It’s frightening.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Skippy says:
Matt – I don’t have a specific comment to address in your posts, but I just have been reading a lot of them for a while now and just wanted to say how much it warms my heart to see how generous you are with fellow posters here, with your expertise, knowledge, and insights.
All in all, this is a remarkable gathering of compassionate, caring people – maybe seeing this rich and beneficent side of humanity is one of the good things to have come out of our traumatic experiences. The EQ of people on this site is truly impressive (which I think makes getting duped all the more bewildering and shame-inducing; but, like everyone, we have our Achilles’ heels). The wisdom and perceptiveness and kindness and good, pragmatic advice on every page of this site is not like any other site I’ve ever visited. It’s a true oasis. Thanks so much for the camaraderie and support, good people.
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usedabused says:
Skippy you are so right. This site is wonderful, it reaffirms that there is nothing wrong with us, the level of communication here is off the chart.
Elizabeth is right that “An S is always at war with the rest of us. As soon as we recognize that it’s war, much of what we thought was real becomes false.” Mine used to say, while we were “stuck” having to see each other while he was living with Jane (a situation he had engineered I now see), that “I am not the enemy.”
He was. He was there to take whatever he could, had no empathy for how it was hurting me, and I had to take drastic measures to extricate myself. I moved cross country. Booting him at that point could have had legal repercussions, so I bailed.
Just wish I had remembered that when he called months later.
Thanks for all the strength in these posts, God Bless.
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shabbychic2 says:
I see here that Stargazer said to read another thread regarding an update she posted… but that was Monday, and I was not home Monday, and I don’t know where to look! Are you here tonight star? Or does anyone else know? Thanks!
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Matt says:
shabbychic2:
I can’t remember where she posted, but I can tell you the substance of Stargazer’s news. Stargazer was notified by her senator’s office that the Army had acted on her complaint against her ex-S (I think we need to rethink that term since they may be our exes, but they are NOT ex-sociopaths) under the UCMJ. Among his discipline was a restraining order prohibitting him from contacting her.
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shabbychic2 says:
Matt: Thank you very much! Good news!
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shabbychic2 says:
This is weird, and I am not trying to be funny, but that accused Craiglist Killer’s fiancee defended him and said “he wouldn’t hurt a fly”… and that is the same thing Norman Bates was thinking to himself at the end of the movie Psycho.
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usedabused says:
Shabby -
Excellent point. Our ex S/P’s were just not quite as violent as Bates in the physical sphere, but the violence they wrecked upon us was just as bloody.
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Rosa says:
The Craigslist Killer’s fiancee reminds me of myself, of what I used to be.
Those days are over, God willing.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME!
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usedabused says:
Totally understand, Rosa. I defended him to everyone in my life who saw through him.
Why is it, though (having been through 3 of these in a few year period), they can spot EACH OTHER a mile away. There was even another one in my life, definitely an S but never did me any personal damage. He & the S hated each other without ever meeting, and both the X S’s both told me the S gal was ripping me off, and of course hated each other.
Wish we could get the same perspective.
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ErinBrockovich says:
Does this sound familiar?
As our friends and family cried out to us…..’they won’t change’.
Us:
“Oh, but he loves me, (thinking or even saying out loud), you just don’t know him like I do”.
These words usually came out after we were so disgusted and fed up and ready to walk….and they came to us with flowers or some minute nicety…flowing the I love you’s and I will never love anyone like you. I want US to work out. blah, blah, blah…. and we felt either guilty or hopeful that maybe, just maybe we were not seeing the situation clearly?
Oh……the fantasies we lived. Without the Cinderella ending.
How many of us have thought of the possiblitiy that we were involved with the same S’s?
I think we should all exchange names of the S’s that have attempted to ruin our lives and wreak havoc…….at least then, if we ever run across them……we will know to run for the hills!!! (or mess with them to get a jab in on behalf of our LF friends)
I wish all my friends at LF a relaxing and healthy weekend! Take a moment for yourselves and reflect on how fortunate we are to be ‘out of the fire’. As bad as it may be for some of us at the moment…..it could be worse!
Stay positive!!!!
Happy Friday.
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Rosa says:
UsedAbused:
Craig’s List Killer: Have you noticed how people who have NO EXPERIENCE with sociopaths find it SOOO unbelievable that the fiancee had no idea that her boyfriend was a killer?
I think everyone on this site knows exactly how these things happen.
Yes, I totally agree. The radar that these S’s possess is something that will always mystify me. It is truly a gift from Satan.
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usedabused says:
Hi Rosa and Erin,
We need to get that radar, can we do it?
“These words usually came out after we were so disgusted and fed up and ready to walk….and they came to us with flowers or some minute nicety…flowing the I love you’s and I will never love anyone like you. I want US to work out. blah, blah, blah…. and we felt either guilty or hopeful that maybe, just maybe we were not seeing the situation clearly?
Oh……the fantasies we lived. Without the Cinderella ending.”
Mine did this as I was leaving him. Everything I wanted to hear. “It was about us” etc, etc — he had wanted to delay even seeing me for TWO DAYS while he was en route, before he learned I was there for the car and nothing else.
If it is gift from Satan, let them keep it. I am a Christian and want nothing from Satan. Let’s just try to figure it out from here, maybe with our collective knowledge we can put together a “red flag list” and get it on the dating sites. They won’t ask for names, they don’t want to hurt people.
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endthepain says:
okay..need some help here this morning.
I posted yesterday and was feeling good. Lastnight and today not so good. I recently went against the NC rule and Im struggling here. I did it for the sole purpose of my son so I could start documenting the “lack of concern” he has for him. I am struggling in the sense that Im not sure how to deal with him. I have the ability to check his messages and he ha saved the messges I left for him. 1. informing him of me not lowering the support and not being pitted against his wife 2. to tell him he can call his son on such and such number 3. letting him know how happy his son was to hear from him….
can anyone tell me why he would keep these??? they are of no value as far as information goes..nothing to be saved for..am I wrong here??? Im freakin out a bit as he will be back in this state and at his moms house next week in which there has been a “vague” mention of seeing his son…I so do not want my son to be used..today I am feeling so angry..as I did speak to some of his friends and they are falling for his BS and it kills me..as before they did not like and saw him for what he was doing..now all of a sudden..its a poor him..he cant find a job in this economy..he is losing his house…his wife is a bitch and the Im going after him for support..I just want to SCREAM and run away and never deal with him..but I have to for now beacuse of my son…I want to tell everyone what a worthless piece of crap he is..but I know it will only make me look crazy but honestly I feel crazy..please help me…its a matter of days before he is here again and I dont want this..tell me what to do and again why would he save those messages????
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Endthepain,
This is part of the problem with making contact. I misunderstood the other day I thought you called and left a contact number when it went to voicemail. And also dont forget you can text him pertinent information too.
Part of Ending the pain – is what you are able to do on your end with limited contact or allowing information coming in to you about him. If you really want to figure out how to deal with him you must ask yourself what it is you want to come from this. And then stick to it.
As far as having the ability to check his messages…you have the ability not to check his messages. And i do not say this with ease, because I understand how hard it is to disengage, and not get that fix of information and feeling like we are at least on top of it or aware of whats going on. But that just prolongs the pain…whether you check messages or not life is going to go on…he is still going to do the same things and have lots going on in his life that doesnt involve you and that you dont need to be aware of or check on . You need to decided what benefit you are receiving from checking his messages. Because if he was getting in to your voicemail account and checking your messages you would not have nice things to say about him doing that.
Why does he keep the messages…that doesnt matter…why do want to know why he keeps the messages…thats something that matters…maybe he just pressed the next button to hear other messages and yours went to saved messages…maybe he hasnt gotten around to deleting last weeks messages…maybe he got angry and stopped listening half way and hung up and that saves messages…maybe he likes to hear your voice? maybe he plans on using it against you?? WHO KNOWS? none of the answers are helpful to you in any way… you have to get to a place where you start to end the pain and you focus more on you.
You mentioned you called him after he spoke to his son to say how happy his son was to hear from him. Thats very nice of you, but thats making contact that isnt necessary. It would be confusing to him that you say that and then when he tells you he is at his moms and mentions wanting to see his son — you dont want your son to be used. I understand this, but that means you cant pick and choose when you want to make contact and say your son was happy to hear from him. And it has to be frustrating to you to reach out and say something nice and not be responded to or not hear back from him. Its important you stay NC, unless he makes the effort, and then you can decide how to proceed.
Ending the pain means no more speaking to any of his friends…that just adds insult to injury getting information from them is nothing you need to do or know…it will all change hundreds of times, stories will go in circles, he will bad mouth you when he can, and play the pity card…the goal is to remove yourself from this situation….try to move on…in the sense that other than his involvement with your son (if you wish that to be) there is no other contact or involvement or checking his messages.
All that matters is you know he is worthless…others will figure him out on thier own…The crazy feeling …comes from contact …with him…with his friends…with checking messages… His life is going to go on whether you check them or not – and the information you receive only baffles you or confuses you.
You asked for guidance. I suggest you try to regroup. Try to put in into perspective and figure out what you want. He is a jerk, a creep, a user… checking his messages arent worth it…. contacting him other than what your lawyer deems necessary is not worth it…being in touch with his friends is a guaranteed crazy feeling afterward…you dont have to deal with him when you are ready not to. Except for custody and support.
You need to clear your head…you have been through so much…and its all so very confusing…but once you get yourself strong and focused everything will fall into place. Your son is your focus and you and your life is your focus. He lost his priviledge to receive your friendship, kindness and love. You have to deal with him the way you want to – and whats best for your son. Hang in there!! Hope this was helpful in some small way. Everything will be ok, because once you enforce NC you will gain some clarity!!!
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Rosa says:
EndthePain:
I am also struggling in a situation where there is a child in the middle of it all.
However, my situation is a bit different in that the child is my niece. The mother (raging psychopath) is my brother’s wife.
I am very concerned about my niece’s safety.
So, everytime I have to deal with my sister-in-law, I go into “Sociopath Mode”. That means I turn off all emotions and the guard goes up. I try to mirror whatever she says/does, so she thinks she has me “under control”. I avoid conflict at all costs.
But, I DO NOT take the bait in any of her attempts to gaslight, provoke, or smear me. And she has done them all.
I hope this helps a little.
Girl, DON’T LET HIM SEE YOU SWEAT!!
As far as the saved phone messages, I have NO idea. I have been involved with a few who would save all of my cards and correspondence as well. But, they never made time for ME, so I was confused about why certain things were being saved, too.
Stay strong.
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endthepain says:
learnthelesson…Thank you thank you thank you….you are so right..as I was embarressed to say I got itno his messages..but you are right it doesnt matter..its just sauch a mind game…I want to stay on top of it and its exhausting..and then paranoia as to what he has done and what he is capable of doing! I hear your words loud and clear and I appreciate it as I NEED TO HEAR THAT! its all so confusing how to handle and deal when it comes to me son..I want to run and protect and then I fear the consequences of not having the contact..I dont want my son to be like him ,..I just want proof of his neglect..so I can be rid of him and not worry any more..it sucks to be strong one moment ans then so confused in another moment
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learnthelesson says:
Endthepain, I can relate to how you feel. I think alot of us can. I your openness and honesty not only helps you but it helps others who are struggling too. You are not the only one who has had the ability to check messages – but you are someone who has the ability to share that – and learn and grow from that. Its so hard to give all that up – to say to yourself — screw it, I dont want to know, I dont need to know — because all I know is my life is changing and bad man is not in it now and its up to me to focus on myself and my son. Its just so damn hard to actually do that. But I want you to know you can. Its work. Its boundaries. Its strength. Its courage. Its believing in your heart he is who he is and he isnt going to change. But life is still happening and taking place. So go forward with it — he is going to stay stagnant and pull all of his same BS. You are going to get strong. Set boundaries. Stick to them!!!!!!
Proof of his neglect….will come easily. Just keep a journal. When he calls. What he says. What happens…. let it all unfold. you dont have to do anything. EXCEPT DECIDE WITH YOUR LAWYER HOW TO PROCEED WITH SUPPORT AND CUSTODY. Let him live his life, mess up his life…etc. You get on with yours…slowly but surely….get out with your son…pamper yourself…reconnect and find who you were again before you met him!
Commit to yourself what you want to do. He is nothing to be proud of or jealous of or envious of. You will do whats right for you and your son. Trust yourself. If your son is happy with a few visits with him at Grandmas house than you will do that if you trust him and yourself.. If you feel its best to gain full custody you will do that if you trust yoursef.
You need to remove your emotions now. This is about your life and your sons life. The creep is temporarily involved as your sons father. And there is no need for any contact by you. When he contacts you – you will have the rules and regulations in place – your son has a schedule and needs consistency – and needs your love and guidance and focus. Stay on track and you will feel less and less confused and more and more strength. Youre a wonderful person and a great Mom – focus on that. Everyday!!!! And keep sharing and posting here whenever you feel overwhelmed or just need to vent!!! Hang in there…the pain will end when you are ready!!!!!
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Rosa says:
LearntheLesson:
That is sooo right on. It is hard to see these things when we are in the “eye of the storm”.
But, once we come out from the clouds, it is always US who are evolving and changing and improving ourselves.
The S’s will never change. That’s why their game becomes boring.
They start out as the most exciting men we have ever known, and they end up as the most predictable/boring.
THE IRONY of it all!!!
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Matt says:
endthepain:
I think you’ve been given some good advice on the emotional side of your need to check his voicemail messages and why you shouldn’t. I’m going to give you some legal advice on why you shouldn’t be leaving him voicemail messages.
The reason is very simple — those messages are zero proof if you have to take any legal action against him. Zip. Nada. Zilch.
You must put everything in writing. While some people say you can get away with text messaging, I’m not big on it. Actually, I’m of the school of thought that if it ain’t in writing, it ain’t worth the paper it’s written on. Nothing beats a letter sent certified mail, return receipt requested. That’s something you can take into court.
More to the point, if you send the letters out certified, you don’t have to deal with hearing his voice, putting up with the mind-fuck you know he’s going to give you, and letting him distract your from the task(s) at hand — getting him out of your life and your son’s life.
Without setting things out in writing, he will always try to take advantage. Moreover, once you get the custody agreement, support agreement and visitation agreement in place, you will have infinite control over the situation. Let me qualify that — the agreements will take you so far, then it is up to you to hold him to the literal letter of the agreement(s).
Stop wasting you time trying to figure out why he’s doing something like holding onto voicemails. It’s energy wasted that could be better spent on figuring out how you really can get control of him. Also, we couldn’t figure them out when we were with them, and we still aren’t really going to figure them out now that we’re away from them.
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usedabused says:
Matt has a good point, and make sure the letter contains instructions on when and at what number he can call your son. Be reasonable, give him 2 hour window not an exact time, maybe even two 2 hour windows a day.
You need to show that you are allowing him to speak to your son.
And when in court, he’s “Our son” not “My son.”
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EMJ170ORD says:
Endthepain-
I understand where you are coming from, listening to messages and such; trying to stay 2 sreps ahead of the S. But don’t! If he would ever figure that out, he will use it against you – invasion of privacy. As far as him saving the messages – I can only guess, but probably to use it against you to show you are “crazy”. I didn’t think my S saved anything, but for the deposition, strangley enough, everything I had mailed (throughout the 5 years together) appeared; trying to show that I was “crazy” and stalking him. He also filed a claim of invasion of privacy, but the judge threw it out.
I agree, you have to decide what you want for an end result, and you can do this without talking to him or leaving messages. There are other means (court, certified mail, etc) that will show you have your act together, not “crazy”, and that you are not intimidated by him. NC is paramount. Believe me, I have been dealing with my S for 3 1/2 years since the bottom fell out, and it does get so much better. Good Luck!
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endthepain says:
thank you..I have been feeling sick about even leaving a message and having to speak with him. Altho nothing in the message can be used against me..it can only reinforce what I have tried to do. I will heed the advice given and follow up with a certified letter. No more messages. Its so scary when having to deal with innocent children as all you want to do is protect them..and I struggle with being able to do that. I like the end result question…I haven’t pondered that thought long..as I already know I want him to leave us alone…go and suck the life out of someone else…for 2 1/2 yrs he put me thru hell..before I took him back again….I kicked him to the curb..called him on his crap..he convinced his wife I was crazy and then allowed her to do his dirty work for him…..there was fiking after filing to reduce support….tried to get out of it any way he could…hand hurt..cant work….no work…tried…started out business..not enough work…said he was going to adopt a 16 yr old from his wifes previous marriage so he couldnt support our son..thrn tried to say our son wasnt his….killed me crushed me..my spirit died….he told me it was all her..if he didnt do what she said he would lose everything…he left her came to me…filed for divorce and then attempted me to have me do his dirty work…she attempted to expose him and have him pay her close to 40,000…he flipped…i kicked him out and he went back to her..its disgusting…anyway..the pain…has been burioed and Im still dealing with it..I got blind sided so many times..and trying to stay one step ahead is exhausting…Im so close to his mom and she has an amazing relationshipo with our son..unfortunately she hates the wife she she believes her son has been poisined by that woman and isnt capable of doing anything horrible that it has to be her…I love her dearly..but blood is thincker than water and she cannt see that he is just using her in his game as well….my son loves his grandma and I dont know how to not let that be affected when he will be coming and staying with her and playing his poor me game..I feel powerless today and tired…LF has helped me alot but I realize Im far from where I want to be
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Matt says:
endthepain:
I was struck by the parallels between you and his wife. He gets her to do the dirty work vis-a-vis you He gets you to do the dirty work vis-a-vis her. And then there’s the energy and resources he is expending just to avoid honoring is obligations to you and her. Amazing.
My concern for you is his mother. I am all for her having a relationship with her grandson. Obviously, she is important to your son’s life. However, you are being put in a dangerous postion with her.
At a minimum S is going to go on the attack for your “interfering” in his relationship with his mother. In a sad way, he has a point. The sad reality is his mother is his mother. Not only is she going to take his side (which will drive you bonkers), but, anything you say to her will be passed on to him (which will work to your detriment).
I had great relationships with S’s family. Many of them reached out to me after I sent him packing. And I had to tell them all the same thing — I could not get in the middle of their relationship with S. Family is family. Punto.
I think you are going to have to establish a few groundrules with grandma. Basically you’re going to have to tell her that you cannot discuss S or your dealings with S with her. It is not fair to either of you. I would also make it very clear that while she is welcome to come and visit her grandson in your home, the same invitation does NOT extend to her son. Her son’s role in your son’s life and his obligations to his son will be determined by a court of competent jurisdiction.
And then leave it alone. No further details. No information.
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endthepain says:
Matt..
Yes the parallels are amazing..but more disgusting in my eyes…He was able to play me up until he came back and was going thru his divorce ans as I said ATTEMPTING to get me to do his dirty work…I saw what he was doing to her and his daughter and I was disgusted…I saw him for the first time the real him and I didnt like it which is why I kicked him out..I appreciate your feedback as I know you are right about establishing ground rules..right now he uses his mom to get right with me or to see his son..but I know once I put everything in motion that will change..he will con her…and thats between them…as of now..she feels he should leave me alone and be on HIS OWN and just pay the support..I appreciate more than I can tell you the advice you are giving…I dont feel so scatterd or alone
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Matt says:
endthepain:
I think one of the worst feelings in the world is the day you finally wake up and realize how you have been played. When you realize that all the love and caring and, yes, money you spent didn’t mean a damned thing in his eyes because he didn’t love you, but viewed you as a mere source of supply, the human equivalent to an iron lung.
And right up there is when you realize how you and and another of his victims have been played against each other. Now when I look at the stunts his ex-partner (of 8 years) pulled on me, I actually feel sorry for the guy. At least I finally saw what S was all about. That poor sucker was determined “to win S back” and will never see.
As for his mom, it is good that she thnks he should leave you alone and just pay the support. Unfortunately, as we both know, he’ll no doubt co-opt her for his own objectives.
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endthepain says:
so true…his ex was desperate to “win him back”..and now she is losing her home and has no money due to the fact she had supported him and all of his “fantasy dreams” not to mention child support for another child….she wanted him back and got him back alright she did….she’ll never know that each time I kicked him out he went crawling back to her..I got out lucky..and Thank her as well…as each time she wanted him back she gave him more and less to her…she now has nothing and him!! I lost alot but not as much as she did..I could have been her..married to him….thank god…I was lucky
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jules says:
yet again the similar stories, like the helpfullnes of damsels in distress. this struck me about my s pretty early on in our meeting. he was soooo keen on helping females he didnt even know, like the single mother with the pram getting on the bus oh what a gentleman, then come home and tell me about it, i was like yeh and he had a big conversation with her too not just helping her, im thnking weird to talk so openly to a stange woman when your suposed to love me. then helping teenage girls who are sick in the shopping center, weird again i thought. then the stories of him helping woman in the past one who was arguing with her boyfriend on the street and the s just pokes his nose in and gets into a fight over it with the guy. again a total stranger. it seems a strange way of meeting people yes. i didnt know of sociopaths then. always the hero. but when he met me i wasnt apearing outwardly in distress actually i think he went for me cause i had more of what he didnt, my own apartment and a loving family parents who cared he had none of this. he definately digged for info about me too and i had a boyfriend at the time. but he big strike was when i had a fight with the boyfriend he gave me his number as quick as a flash all caring, if you need to talk to someone call me. he just went and took the risk of rejection even though he mustnt of expected me to call…. sadly i was so lonely and needed someone to care i called him what a big mistake for me. but i think now its all over long ago that he thinks of me more than i think of him they pretend not to but i feel they cant stand to lose right, and one got away and found out the realtruth i think with mine anyway it burns him inside. my ultimate revenge will be getting happy and moving on to the life i want with someone wonderfull and him still playing that same old game trying to find happiness. but they never will they dont do any work on themselfs they put all thir energy into playing others to get what they think is important . funny some one mentioned the movie labrynth on here it was a favorite of his i havent seen it also he likes the show heroes prob cause he thinks he is one. he also copied alot of the things i said to him. i said once your an amazing person.then when he was breaking up with me he said those exact words and i felt sick and creeped out by this. he often repeated me and probly others. he was also soooo sensitive it wasnt funny it was attractive a first but then it was intense to be real. his mother was a struggling single mother whos attention he craved but rarely got. so he always has sympathy for these type of woman. to this day. the way they think their minds workings are complicated yet so basic it is very confusing . the way they think so fast reacting so quick its s o strange even when i know all that i know now things still shock and amaze me but not the right way. even reading someof the things here make me feel astounded. i do find peace in knowing he will never really be happy this sounds cold sounds cruel but it gives me comfort. maybe its karma for all the terrible things they do to us.
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kim frederick says:
about this article, Since P’s don’t feel empathy what do they say about their ability to recognize and remember the sad and vulnerable faces? I understand the predatory quality in this ability, but how do P’s interpret it within themselves. They lack self awareness and see nothing wrong with themselves. I’m sure that THEY wouldn’t call it predatorial. It might be interesting to conduct a study asking, “which faces to you find the most attractive?” What do you think?
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OxDrover says:
Kin,
I spent a couple of years in Africa in my teens doing wild life photography. The PREDATORS there are VERY astute in picking the ONE animal out of a herd of 1000 that has a LIMP or something wrong with it (old, sick, very young, whatever thing) that would make it EASIER to attack than the other 999 out of the 1000. Just a glance at a herd and a lion or wolf or a tiger and they can pick out that ONE VULNERABLE potential victim that will give them a little bit of an edge in killing it.
I think the psychopaths, who are HUMAN PREDATORS learn just as the feline or canine predators do what makes something a more vulnerable victim than the rest of the herd.
Like humans have a lot of learning to do in order to survive as an adult and we stay with our “parents” longer so do predatory animals. Bears stay with their mothers for two or more years during which time they learn hunting techniques from her, wolves stay with their pack and learn by demonstrations how to survive.
I just got a national Geo DVD documentary on polar bears and how they learn from their mother to survive and to hunt before she turns them out on their own. VERY interesting.
I think the Ps learn by a combination of instinct and trial and error just like the polar bears, the wolves and the big cats do.
It is a survival thing. It isn’t that they empathize with their victim’s emotions, it is more that they RECOGNIZE THE WEAKNESS which was a benefit to them in the past. The fact that they PREY makes it mandatory that in order to succeed, they learn, and I think that is what they are doing, pure and simple. Learning is BEST learned by intermittent success, which is what I use in training animals with the rewards coming every time they succeed at first, then being spaced out, so that though they may get a reward for their behavior, they never know when it will come, there may be 500 times between the behavior and a reward, but they neve rgive up on getting the reward, so they keep repeating the behavior. Ps do the same thing I think, They try, and try and try and eventually they will get rewarded.
According to the film I saw on polar bears, they only are successful an average of 1 in 20 tries to catch a seal, but they keep on trying and eventually get one. I’m not sure what the “success rate average” is with psychopaths, but every time they catch one, they are reinforced with success, so they just keep on trying to pick out the “weakest” from the herd.
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OxDrover says:
ps Kim, there have been many studies done on “attractive vs unattractive faces” but what makes a person ATTRACTIVE to a P is WEAKNESS of some kind emotionally, a vulnerability of some kind that they move in on.
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OxDrover says:
ps ps–that posted before I was done. In Dr. Leedom’s study of what makes women attractive to a psychopapth and what those women hav ein common is the “weakness” of a caring disoposition, empathy, loyalty, and other characteristics that make us “weaker” for the psychopath to exploit our characteristics against us.
While we think it is good to have empathy, loyalty and caring, the Psychopaths sees those things as weaknesses to be exploited because caring and loyal women are more likely to have pity on them and to be loyal to them even after they start to abuse those women.
So, what we (women) must do is to protect ourselves and not let our caring and loyal dispositions be turned against us as weapons by the predators. We must elarn to strengthen our boundaries and to SPOT THE PREDATOR EARLY ON IN THE RELATIONSHIP. The Psychopath’s camophlage is good, they look so much LIKE HUMANS.
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skylar says:
LOL Oxy, you sound like a predator, the way you train your animals, grooming them with intermittent rewards which they can never be sure they will get so they keep trying and trying. that’s what my p was doing to me!
Your observations of lions is very interesting because that is what sociopaths remind me most of.
But here is an interesting twist on lions, tell me what you think.
Kidnapped Girl Rescued by Lions!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4116778.stm
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OxDrover says:
Yea, that was interesting! The explination they gave I think is probably right, the lions were probably well fed at the time, and somewhat confused as to what she was, they would have probably eventually killed her if the cops hadn’t shown up when they did.
Yes, exactly, skylar, on training animals, we become the alpha of the pack (with dogs) and also with the steers which we train as oxen (working steers) or horses. With the oxen and the horses you give them pain, and the relief of the pain is the reward when they do what you want. That’s how a bit in a horse’s mouth works. You put pressure on the mouth (a small amount of pain) and when they turn their head the pain is relieved, so they learn to avoid pain.
With dogs you reward them, but you also convince them that displeasing you has consequences too. With the border collies, I growl at them (like their mother would have when they were pups) when they displease me. If they really badly displease me I shake them by the fur on their neck and growl at the same time (again, like their mother would have) and if they defy me, I bite them on the ear as well as growl. I NEVER hit them. They would not understand that.
You can hit a horse and they will respond okay, but you never hit a donkey as a donkey does not trust you like a horse would, and are much smarter. You just let donkeys get “natural consequences” and it is difficult to train them as they are not wanting to please you so much as a horse will. You have to know the type of animal you are training, and you also have to be “smarter than” the animal and that is not always easy! Brutality is not the way to do it, though with oxen if they defy you or try to hurt you, you must severely chastise them to remain alpha. Thhis isn’t as bad as it sounds though, because if you watch two cattle sparring for the alpha position, they hook each other with their horns prettry badly though they usually don’t draw blood, but they will knock each other down. Usually one bought for alpha is all it ever takes between them or leven with humans. I start with the cattle when they are 2-3 days old though, so I have seldom had any problem that required anything more severe than a fly swatter on a 2,000 pound animal. If they need anything more violent than that, I butcher them for meat. I do not allow any animal on my place that is TRYING to hurt me, hooking me with horns or kicking or biting. Large animals can hurt you accidently frequentlly enough that you dont’ need to risk your life with mean or violent animals.
I am the same way with humans now too, if one is abusive I get rid of them….unfortunately, the law won’t let me send them to the slaughter plant, and their carcasses are worthless, LOL but I do SEND THEM AWAY. LOL
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justabouthealed says:
I am not uninformed about the true nature of animals, especially wild animals.
HOWEVER, I also think animals are much smarter than we think, while also instinctual. They pick up clues from scents we give off, fear, etc. that we are only subconsciously aware of. But my experience with lions is that if lions are about to eat something, THEY EAT, and they could have killed the girl and run off with her, even as they heard police moving in. The fact is they didn’t. I’m sure the girl was very afraid of the lions too, but I bet it was a different scent than she gave off with the men.
Contrary to what many people think, animals ARE capable of altruistic moves. However, it is a huge mistake to count on that with a wild animal!!! She was a lucky girl. That’s why it made the news!
We will never know what was going through their heads. But sometimes animals do size up more than we realize.
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justabouthealed says:
Some training methods are now are even more positive oriented training, such as the Parelli Horse Training method. It is truly amazing to watch a Parelli trained horse! And to watch the training. I love it!
We are also discovering that the alpha behavior of wolves in confinement, even in a natural setting, is not the same behavior as they exhibit in the wild, where there is plenty of room. Just as human males behave much better spread out, I think, then they do in a frat house. LOL!
Keith Campbell makes a point in his book about male narcissists, saying they thrive in certain environments like college campuses and also retirement homes (where the odds are so good that they “get away with” bad behavior). NOT WITH ME. I don’t care how long it has been since I’ve had a man in the future….any man who is full of himself is not going to get ANY WHERE with me, not even the game of flirting. I have truly lost my appetite for them. TOTALLY.
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justabouthealed says:
PS they also thrive where there is a constant turnover of people, like college campuses, or a big city. Think of Sex and the City….in a small town, people would soon have their fill of Mr. Big. After awhile, you really do get sick of them, but of course, they never realize it.
Part of the rise of the narc in our society I think is that we live in cities. I have given that up. Thank god for telecommuting.
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OxDrover says:
I agree with you, JAH that living in cities where most people around you are “strangers” helps psychopaths thrive. Out here in the boonies, we pretty well know each of our neighbors AND their families and a “reputation” is something that gets around. You soon learn whom you can trust and who you can’t. since there is less turn over in my neighbors, though the last couple or three years there has been a HUGE influx of “oil field trash” come into the community with the huge natural gas drilling that is going on in our area, complete with hundreds of illegal aliens, convicts, etc. that we have no idea who are, so lock your doors folks! For many years I literally did NOT KNOW where the key to my front door is, I never locked it, I left the keys to each vehicle in my yard inside the vehicle, never locked the doors, did not lock up my work shop, etc. NOW EVERYTHING IS LOCKED AND THERE IS A SECURITY SYSTEM ON THE HOUSE—which predated the psychopathic attack even. Gates on the road are up and they are kept locked at night and when we are gone.
I’ve had problems with oil workers cutting fences to get in and other things. I did get one guy fired over that and got it across to the company that I would NOT tolerate this kind of behavior.
Since the oil companies will be here for the next 30 years or so I am having to learn to live with it, but I lived in big cities long enough to know how to handle it. As for locals, I know who is who, and they know who I am, and I don’t have problems with locals. I generally stay away from the ones I might have problems with, and they know better than to come here giving me problems. The JOKE here is that “he just needed killing” is still a valid defense! And sometimes it actually applies, in the case of the Trojan Horse Psychopath, child molester and ex-convict, if he violated the no-contact order and came here, it WOULD be a valid defense and NOT a joke.
In the city, where the cops don’t know you, and don’t know the bad guys personally, a psychopath can “disappear” and find a new victim pool by moving 2-3 blocks away or changing jobs. Not so in the country where not only the neighbors know you, everyone in the county does, and the cops do too.
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OxDrover says:
ps. One of the “funny” things is though, that a psychopath who moves into the country from the city thinks they are hiding out in the country, but tehy dont’ realize that a “new” person who moves into the neighborhood is WATCHED LIKE A HAWK for several years and anything that is odd about them, or patently dishonest is soon BROADCAST all over the neighborhood but because the ydon’t “know” all of us, they dont’ realize that EVERYONE here is curious and learns about them. My neighbor, the psychopath called Crazy Bob came here and thought he would be accepted immediately, and didn’t even get it that by the time he had been here 2-3 weeks, NO ONE liked or respected him and his tales of :”great deeds” and his own “importance” were the joke of the neighborhood and the “name” of “Crazy” was attached to his first name forever. He eventually left the area though he still owns the land across the road from me, and apparently one of his “crazy” friends has moved in over there to live in it, everyone in the area knows exaactly what is going on over there. He is treated like a pariah if he comes around, and even the local vet will not treat his animals because he doesn’t want to have to deal with “Crazy Bob”—
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kim frederick says:
I had a crazy Bob neighbor, too. He used to trap my cats and one time showed up on my porch spitting nails because my kids had inadvertantly thrown wild grapes over the fence into his yard. He stood there shaking with a fist full of grapes raised above his head, squeezing, til the juice started running down his arm. Okay, the juice didn’t really run down his arm, but I took a little poetic licence. just to make the story good. Ha.
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OxDrover says:
One time I had a cow running a high fever and my vet thought the stress of hauling her to town might do her in, so he came out to the farm after 5 and treated the cow. We got to telling “crazy Bob” stories of the OUTRAGEOUS THINGS he ahd done in the county. I would tell a GOOD onoe, and the vet would tell a better one, and then I would top that story and so on. At 10 p.m. that night the vet said “I better get home or my wife will kill lme!” We had stood on the runway telling crazy bob stories for 4 hours and never ran out of stories. the outrageous things this man has done and the ENTITLEMENT he displayed was something ELSE.
Everyone in the county knows who “Bob” is just by his first name (which of course is a common one) no one needs a last name to identify him.
After my husband’s death, almost one yr to the day, Bob sued me for $50,000 for HIS mental suffering and damage because my husband :”trespassed” on his land to burn to death. I WAS SO SHOCKED AND HRUT by this suit that for months afterwards I was DEVESTATED and the community was so MAD AT HIM for attacking me thaty I actually had men of the community come to me and OFFER TO KILL HIM, and believe me, I SO WANTED to say “yes”—-but eventually I realized how this hate for this man was EATING ME and not hurting him. He is fortunate that I have a conscience, even if at that time I had suppressed it as much as I could.
He is a real piece of work. I can laugh at him now, though, and see him for the PITIFUL PIECE OF CRAP that he is.
He wants so badly for people to admire him and look up to him, that he is actually laughable—he tells such outrageous and UNbelieveable lies of being CIA, FBI, etc etc that everyone who knows him thinks he is laughabble. The name “crazy Bob” (well, you can GUESS where it came from and who started it) just eats at his craw ROTFLMAO so I do sort of chuckle about that one, I guess that is the best revenge I could have on him. LOL
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skylar says:
my story is a bit different. my xp took me out of the city to live on a small island where the cops are corruptable. He is so slick that he easily found the weakness in one s/p neighbor woman and used that. (she likes to have sex with other women’s husbands – she told me this herself) I even wonder if he didn’t poison the woman down the street (she got a neurological disease and went blind) so that they had to sell for really cheap and then, somehow, he found some sick old psychopaths to purchase the house. I know it sounds paranoid, but how is it that he gets people (WHOM I HAVE NEVER MET) to hate me with such passion? Another of the s/p neighbors told me she is a practicing witch, so the only other thing I can think of is that he found a group of devil worshipers and that’s where he recruits his most evil minions.
all 3 of these neighbors moved there after I did and they all have attacked me verbally and slandered me.
My xp told me he will NEVER move back to the city. Of course he lies all the time…so…but I do get the impression he likes living with a survivalist attitude. Probably likes the idea of lots of acreage because there’s more room to hide the bodies. NOT KIDDING.
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bibleannie says:
The S I married stole his dad’s identity. They both have the same name. He went on a wild spending spree using his dad’s initial signature to co-sign for a loan for a truck, that his dad soon decided not to do, but too late, the S pushed it through without his dad’s knowledge. Now thousands of dollars later, it’s catching up with him. His dad finally is getting calls for the past 3 or 4 years and even to this day to pay up on defaulted loans. S’s parents I truly believe are afraid of him, they have never pressed charges but they are old and rich and are plain and simple polite to him now. I turely believe that because it’s only been in the past few years that S has reconnected with them, is because he wants to be on their good side, showing them he’s reformed cause he married a good christian woman with morals and good ethics.
People are afraid of him. they all coddle him and try not to say anything to rock his boat, almost in a high alert nervous sort of way.
Unbelievable but true.
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