SSSP meeting highlights: The psychopath’s inability to love
This week “Sarah” commenting on Lovefraud wrote:
What is the biggest difference between Narcissists/Psychopaths/Sociopaths and us? The ability to love!
What is one of the over-riding characteristics of the N/P/S? They are they are extremely jealous & envious and must WIN! We have something they will never have . . i.e., the ability to love.
In the Mask of Sanity, the first book to describe psychopathy, Hervey Cleckley wrote:
The psychopath seldom shows anything that, if the chief facts were known, would pass even in the eyes of lay observers as object love… In a sense, it is absurd to maintain that the psychopath’s incapacity for object love is absolute, that is, to say he is (in)capable of affection for another … He is plainly capable of casual fondness, of likes and dislikes, and of reactions that, one might say, cause others to matter to him. These affective reactions are, however, always strictly limited in degree. In durability they also vary greatly from what is normal in mankind. The term absolute is, I believe, appropriate if we apply it to any affective attitude strong and meaningful enough to be called love, that is, anything that prevails in sufficient degree and over sufficient periods to exert a major influence on behavior.
In my opinion, perhaps the only flaw in our current measures of “psychopathy” is their failure to assess “ability to love.” Fortunately, that may soon change thanks to Donald Lynam, Ph.D. , Professor of Clinical Psychology at Perdue University. In his presentation, Interpersonal Antagonism as the Core Feature of Psychopathy Dr. Lynam presented evidence that inability to love is at the core of psychopathy.
I have long admired Dr. Lynam’s work, and his rather renegade status in the world of psychopathy research. During his presentation, I sat next to an accomplished psychopathy researcher, who has become a friend. After Dr. Lynam finished, I offered a public thanks to him for his presentation and brought up the issue that no one else is trying to measure and assess “ability to love” in psychopaths. The researcher sitting next to me said “You can have him as your Guru if you like, but there are problems with his work.” I did not ask my friend to elaborate because I already knew why he said that.
Dr. Lynam has challenged the status quo of psychopathy research because he says, “Factor analysis of the PCL-R (the most widely used rating scale) are unlikely to reveal the core personality components of psychopathy.” His making that statement at the SSSP meetings is kind of like a minister at a meeting of Southern Baptists saying that The Bible doesn’t necessarily have all the answers for modern humans.
Dr. Lynam says (and I very much agree) that if you analyze the PCL-R to understand “the psychopath” you run into circular arguments. How do we know this person is a psychopath? Because he/she has a high PCL-R score. How do we know the PCL-R symptoms reflect the psychopathy personality type? Because they belong to “psychopaths” as identified by the PCL-R. The way to get around these circular arguments is to separate diagnostic measures from personality measures. This is what Dr. Lynam has done.
The most accepted model of general personality posits five basic traits called the Big Five (OCEAN: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism). Dr. Lynam has studied these traits in relation to psychopathy and he has found that “low agreeableness” explains a majority of individual differences in PCL-R scores. That means that the core of psychopathy is explained by low agreeableness.
What exactly is low agreeableness? Agreeableness has 6 parts to it: trust, straightforwardness, altruism, compliance, modesty and tender mindedness. The items on this list reflect a person’s tendency toward intimacy, needs balancing (ones own needs vs. other’s needs) and caretaking of others; core components of ability to love. Dr. Lynam also mentioned briefly that these are more than personality traits and instead seem to reflect “an ability.” I wrote about love as a developmentally acquired “ability” in Just Like His Father? nearly three years ago, and am glad to see this given more attention by scientists.
After I commented praising Dr. Lynam’s work, another researcher stood up and said, “There’s just something about this that bothers me… my gut tells me it is off… If psychopaths lack agreeableness, why do other people find them attractive?”
I talked with that researcher in private afterwards. Consider Dr. Cleckley’s statement about love and psychopathy. Since psychopaths appear to have fondness and affection, their inability to love is often hidden behind their “Mask of Sanity.” It is only when you really get to know them and you put yourself in a position of depending on them that you discover the importance of their inability to love. This is where victims have wisdom and understanding that many psychopathy researchers will never attain.
For more on Dr. Lynam’s work see: Are they just evil people?
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
Vic says:
I found this to be especially true! The VALUE of anything was limited to time, a very short time! And people where no different than possesions! Replaceable as the daily paper! No value! Their Parents are no different as long as they are supplying a need, home, money , food, help! Friends where non-existant because they held no value in them if they did not supply a need! Regardless of the past exploites.
To throw away relationships like used toilet paper!
I believe this is truely what they think of themselves, that they are CHIT and everything about themselves is made up to cover this belief!
Without Love the mind is open to influences of an EVIL nature! ie: their behavior
Sincerely Vic
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 8:55am
holywatersalt says:
Absoluetly! And what is love, but God.
They are evil and in need of exorcism.
http://holywatersalt.blogspot....../exorcisms
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 1:08pm
Vic says:
There is a very old saying!
Do not judge a book by its cover! The Wisdom in this is profound!
We can take from it , Do not judge a Person by their Words! Like a book , there has to be solid content inside! So “Hopefully” I won’t Fall for the beauty and wait to see that there is Truth in the Words by Their behavior and deeds! Sometimes we need to read a little deeper into the person before we believe what we are hearing!
Holywatersalt
Trying to persuade Psychologists that a Sociopaths healing is going to require an Exorcism! ? Ain’t gona go well! Not that I don’t agree! Does the Catholic Church still do Exorcisms? It has got to be Cheaper than Institutionalization or Prision!
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 1:56pm
holywatersalt says:
Oh I don’t think they’d ever PUBLICY admit it….no never, ever…but once you have delt with one of these creatures…I wonder what they really believe.
I don’t discount science at all, I think in many cases it just a proof.
And yes, the Church does do exorcisms. Every diocese must have an exorcist.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 2:35pm
holywatersalt says:
ps
Even traditional, conservative parishes are leery of exorcism….why?Well, because that’s the way the Devil works…think of the Screwtape Letters. We are too sophisticated, too educated, too evolved….really the same secular belief about psychopaths. You know if get them a program, more understanding etc. ….we can make the anew or heck most don’teven believe conscienceless people exist!
Few, secular or religious, believe psychopaths exist as everyday folks.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 2:44pm
Wini says:
holywatersalt and Vic, you had me chuckling about your exorcism discussion. since I originally attended the Catholic church for the first half of my life (don’t ask me how old I am now (LOL), I wanted to insert my two cents how I saw what was meant exorcising demons (aka sin) from the inflicted (aka sinner).
It wasn’t anything like the movie, spinning one’s head and spitting pea soup. Very vivid imagination of the writer. It was the congregation coming together and correcting the sinner (aka explaining their sinful nature to them) and asking them if they were willing to repent (aka, work the person back through the process of breaking their sinful nature to where they were not sinning). The Catholics do this because they love all their brothers and sisters and realize that every one of is a sinner.
It also depends on what the sin is. Some sins (see the 10 commandments) are easy to work backwards to the beginning of not having this lust for an earthly affliction, others are more entangled and take years to work backwards.
Success depended mostly on the willingness of the sinner … and the church community who were willing to be there for the individual (sort of like the AA community were they have a sponsor).
It’s doable to work a person back through their sinful nature. Like I said, the sinner has to admit the sin bothers him (acknowledgment) and secondly, they have to be willing to work on this sinful nature.
The reason sin is so prevalent today is because people don’t even realize what sin is anymore.
Peace.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 5:36pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Liane,
Thank you so much for this article! I think your friend is right, and I also think that the “mainstream” researchers may indeed think he is a rebel against “sicience”—-describing “love” much less measuring it is difficult, like “how high is UP?” LOL
Wini, Vic and HSW I agree, they are EVIL creatures, and as far as I am concerned, Satan has their hearts and minds, but they were given willingly to Satan, not unwillingly, and an UNrepentent “sinner” isn’t going to be helped by ANYthing.
It has been proven time and time again that “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion, still.” (don’t know who said that but it is defintely true!)
I also agree with Liane that WE, former victims, probably know more about Ps than most of the “researchers”—and especially the ones who have never met a psychopath that they know of! LOL
The fact that there IS scientific researchh going on concerning Ps is a good thing! I would love to be around in 100 years to see the outcome of some of the research!
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 7:15pm
Wini says:
Oxy, what I find amazing is if you talk about Ps with people they want to stick their heads in the sand and blame the P on us. An attitude like there is something wrong with you … get away from me, like we are contagious. Yet, these same people will tell you about the show they saw the other night about a P or the book they read. It’s like if they see/read/hear about the P from the news media or a mental health professional it’s OK, but to actually talk with a person (us) that had first hand knowledge of the destruction is till a non issue with most people.
I hope I got my thoughts out on this.
Peace.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:07pm
Matt says:
Interesting, but IMHO, I still think ability to love is lower on the list of priorities (for lack of a better word). By the time the victims of a sociopath discovers that they are just a source of supply and there never has been any love, way too much time has gone by.
I still think the manipulation and exploitation are the key elements in the toxic brew that is a sociopathy. Manipulation and exploitation manifest themselves far earlier than “love” or the lack thereof. Personally, manipulation and expliotation are the red flags that I’m looking for right up front.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:48pm
justabouthealed says:
We lost yesterday’s comments. someone posted about ignoring not just red flags but a 76 trombone big parade! Wanted to say the same was true for me too. In the words of the Betrayal Bond book, it was because we believed so strongly (or wanted to) in the person, the promise, the mission and the story. (And I would add, that it was also that we had no idea someone could be so evil to us, as an adult, and we weren’t on the look out.) And if we have had a bond like that before…where we loved or sought love from someone abusing us like a parent….then it is more likely to happen again. There are lots of things that the book lists that can make it more likely for us to believe the highly improbable and reject the obvious. But I always add, that the MAIN reason we got hurt was that we were with a BAD PERSON….and we can respond by learning ways to be stronger, learning situations to avoid, just like a victim of a physical rape….but we were emotionally raped (and sometimes that was just one aspect of what happened) and we are not to blame for that. But still, I can guarantee that NOW even a tiny red speck, let alone a flag, now gets my full attention and response and the particular type P who got to me wouldn’t even be able to buy me a cup of coffee now, and I hope I can spot most types now…though we know some are very slick.
I agree Matt….I look for that “WHAT!!” experience that Steve described in his post on radar for the wrong person. I had signs that my P COULD love…that is too easy to fake. But he couldn’t quite hide his willingness to exploit, so that is, I think, a better red flag. It seems the inability to love and the willingness to exploit are closely aligned, but the latter is easier to spot.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 3:50pm
Matt says:
justabouthealed:
I would submit that the inability to love and the willingness to exploit are indicative that some lacks the ability to love.
End of the day, it doesn’t really matter what the problem is — these creatures are toxic for anybody who gets involved with them.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 3:55pm
Matt says:
justabouthealed:
I mean to say that the willingness to exploit is indictive that someone lacks the ability to love.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 3:56pm
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, was out cruising in my car today with top down and met headon the s and his biker chick and a friend. Murphys’ law everywhere i seem to go and this town is over 50, 000 . I think it might be getting easier only thing that is hurting is the fact that he is spending more time with her than he did me but then again it’s early. He alwasy has to bring along one of his cronnies and i hated that. Hope it gets easier and i find someone that i can at least be remotely interested in. I went out with a gf last night and i tolerated the night but same old bunch of singles, depressing. Im starting to feel a little healthier and hopefully will put some weight on soon. love kh
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 5:25pm
OxDrover says:
Dear KH,
This may not be what you want to hear, but your comment about “Hope it gets easier and I find someone that I can at least be remotely interested in.” Sort of makes me wonder if you are thinking that a new “love interest” will help you get over this X-jerk creep. In my experience, that is the “cart before the jack ass”—we need to GET OVER THE CREEP FIRST and HEAL and THEN look for a new love interest. If Prince CHARMING himself came along with a glass slipper, the problem is that in the “INJURED” STATE we are in post-P, we don’t have the true energy to focus on a new relationship inorder to make it successful, because we haven’t focused on HEALING OURSELVES FIRST.
It would be wonderful if we could just find “mr. perfect” and hook up with him and live “happily ever after” but the problem is that WE aren’t able to do that, to give to a relationship what it takes it to be successful bec ause WE are the ones off kilter.
I suggest strongly that you focus on YOURSELF and don’t even think about a NEW relationship for quite some time. YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT thing for you to focus on. When you HEAL YOURSELF then you will be Ms. Perfect when you do meet Mr. Perfect! (((((hugs))))))
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 5:43pm
kindheart48 says:
Ox i know what you say is the truth, it s just that with so many years wasted on the s and now to be in a state where as you said Mr. Perfect could come along and i’d be well i’d be like i am, absolutely not interested in even talking to men much. Don’t find any attractive and wonder if i ever really will but i don’t want to completely give up hope of ever finding someone. I’ve decided one thing, i want one at leaast as decent as my ex husband. I havn’t got a clue what im looking for in a man anyway, im just getting older and 5.5 years without sex is really a long time but i am used to it by now. Cuddling is all i really wanted from the asshole, but he had to make me pay for the little cuddling with lies and more abuse. I did a silly thing last night, i went out with a g f to a local club (same old place with same old people) and stopped at my male friends house that i was fixed up with around time i met the s. He’s a great guy but alcoholic and involved with a ver y toxic woman, that i introduced him to. She verbally attacked me about nonsense , convinced her guya nd i were lovers (joke sa we are like bro and sister more) . This woman is alcoholic too and she just went on a rampage and for once after i initially tried to be nice offering her some clothes that didn’t fit me. Then when she started on me being old and botoxed and who knows what, i let her have it. So opposite to my normal response of letting it go over. and guess what i feel dam good. I said for one thing missy” if i had wanted Ron i would have had him long before you” . She was so vindictive, calling mymohter and alcoholic all kinds of vile things and i just laughed it off. Ron was pretty upset , told her she’s crazy but i gave it back with both guns. At one point i thought there was a chance she may hit me and i thought go right ahead. I think i needed to react the way i did and after all the times i’ve tried to be kind and decent to this wh*** i had had enough. No intimidation anymore. Before i left i made sure to tell her that she had no respect for my friend Ron at all considering he has helped support her and she should be ashamed of herself. Not an ounce of regret from me today. I could have walked away as i usually would hve but this time i thought no, im Ron’s guest , bring it on cookie. love kindheart
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 6:05pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kindheart,
I don’t want you to think I am “down on” you right now, but you keep talking about people you know “he’s a GREAT GUY…but ALCOHOLIC and involved with a VERY TOXIC WOMAN…”
“At one point I thought she may hit me…..”
” I could have walked awayt……bring it on cookie”
KH, this is DRAMA. What do you mean about your friend Ron? He’s a great guy….DUH? What is so great about being an ALCOHOLIC ? That is like saying “He’s a good husband when he is not beating his wife!”
“I could have walked away?” WHY didn’t you? What did you accomplish by “letting her have it” and “telling her off?” DRAMA, nothing but DRAMA AND MORE DRAMA!
Kindheart, ask yourself (you don’t have to answer me, it is yourself who needs to know the answer to this question) WHY do you keep hanging around with TRASHY ALCOHOLIC and TOXIC PEOPLE and engaging in DRAMA and verbal battles with them? What do YOU get out of this?
Human beings don’t engage in behavior that doesn’t give them some kind of “pay off”—-even people who cut themselves and self harm get a pay off in endorphins being released…..there is SOMETHING you are getting out of all this drama because you keep repeating it….then you get depressed, then start to feel better and the CYCLE CONTINUES.
The healing process isn’t about engaging in more drama, it is about stopping engaging in DRAMA all together.
Remember back when the druggie was wanting a ride and you gave her one, and all the other dramas you have engaged in that have brought you back DOWN? Every time you get involved in more drama you hit bottom. Then it seems as soon as you start to feel better and things are on the upswing you engage in more of it with more of these toxic people you seem to be hanging with.
As long as I continued to hang with TOXIC people, whether they were Ps or not is beside the point, as long as I kept interacting with toxic people I was in a blue FUNK! Now that I have truly decided to step away from these people I don’t have that DRAMA in my life. I am not mad all the time, not being injured, I am FOCUSING on healing ME and they can go on with their little dramas, getting drunk or drugging or criminal acts or whatever their dramas are but I am NOT INVOLVED WITH TOXIC PEOPLE. My life is calm and peaceful. No adrenaline rushes, but PEACE and a good life with JOY.
Hun, I am NOT DOWN ON YOU, but sometimes it takes someone “viewing things from the outside” to see what we are TOO CLOSE TO THE TREES TO SEE THE FOREST. (((((hugs)))) and you are in my prayers!!!! xoxoxox Oxy
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 6:23pm
witsend says:
Dear KindHeart,
I don’t have the past experience with an s in a romantic relationship. BUT I do have history of knowing many toxic people. And healing after a heartbreak.
Sweetie, Oxy is right on…..Correct me if I am wrong but I thought I heard you say that you were in a 12 step program? If so, isn’t there someone in this program that you can be-friend that is getting healthy? NOT the people in the program that keep “going back out” (you don’t need their DRAMA either). But someone who is really got some sobriety and WORKING the program?
When my husband died I couldn’t deal with all these people who stayed in the NEVER ending cycles….Alcohol, drugs, abusive relationships etc……
I think I was like a MAGNET to these people…..I don’t drink, I don’t do drugs, and why these people appeared in my life wasn’t by accident…..I was evidently putting out the vibes…
I’m a nice person, tell me your problems, I’ll be there for you….WHATEVER I did I did….AND I had to STOP. I had girlfriends that went from ONE abusive guy to the next abusive guy, to yet another abusive guy….PATTERN.
The truth is these women thought they NEEDED a guy in their lives, and that is EXACTLY what they didn’t need at the time. They needed to heal. AND so DID I……
I not only didn’t want to attract the alcoholic men into my life I didn’t want to attract the “drama queen” girlfriends into my life either. And maybe that is something you want to think about as well.
At some point I had to look at MYSELF. NOT at the alcoholic, and drug addicts, and abusive people. WHAT do I need to change to NOT attract these people?
I have some great friends, they are mostly married, so I wanted some “single” girlfriends back then….But I just coudn’t deal with the never ending cycle they had going on….So for the last 10 years, I “hang” with my married friends and keep my “circle” to include healthy people, not the crazies.
Yeah…. I do often find myself on Friday and Saturday nights, to be by myself. BUT I figure it is better to be in NO relationship than to be in a toxic one.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 7:24pm
kindheart48 says:
yes you guys are right and i have been reaching out to some of my married friends as they are more balanced but also busy with children and grandchildren and last night was just a repeat of many nights where i chose to go out and endure when i prob should have stayed home and watched a movie. I will be glad when maybe i can get back on some med for adhd, this new med is not covered so i’m off of it but going to try switching to concerta. I get this crazy thinking that i’m missing something or i’d like to dress up and go somewhere but end up in the same stupid places with the same singles and i swear they all just get recylcled. I am trying to stay away from the toxic people and trust me i won’t be headed there for more of the drama but at least im not letting it get to me this time. I’ve been hurt so much , im not going to let some drunken bimbo bring me down. Seeing the s again to day with his biker babe and a friend , i feel like im being slapped in the face left and right. Nothing i can do to really avoid it other than ignore it as best i can. I’ve cut back on my AA meetings and i know that’s not good , so many sick people there , but i know i need the meetings. I’ve got my youngest coming home so that will keep me pretty occupied as he’s quite high maintenance, lots of stress but on ly temporary. I guess i backslidded last night just even going out to the bar but i get so dam bored and restless sitting home and not working gives me too much time to think. Im going to call ins. and try and get back at least a day a week. Im not looking for a relationship with a man at all, furthest thing from my mind, really. I just want my life back and my mind freee of obsessing over the s and i know i can’t make it happen overnight. Im tired of people thinking that i can just act as if nothing happened and move on . My trust with men has been affected to the point where to be honest i don’t even care to talk to them when im in the bar. So im pretty far from any relationship and this friend i went to visit although alkie and toxic , he was not a threat but too much drama with his woman. I have one drama queen gf that i’ve distanced myself from quite a bit so i have improved somewhat and i know now when people are out to use me, i feel the dependency and i don’t like the feeling. Thanks to you all for your advise and i agree with it all . love kindheart
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 10:22pm
sabrina says:
Oxy- excellent advice you gave KH- I think its good for all of us to realize any “drama cycles” are dangerous to us and potentially could find ourselves in a repeat cycle.
KH – A friend told me once that we- as an individual, are the sumation of our 5 closest friends/contacts. We absorb rather willing or unwilling a bit of their personalities, motivation-or lack thereof,and attitudes because this is with whom we share the majority of our time. Sometimes even family members, long time friends, etc must be visited only in small doses to keep “toxic” out of our system or even deliberately removed from our circle altogether.
I constantly evaluate by this concept of “show me your friends, and I will show you who you are.” Surround yourself with motivated, up beat, spiritual and for God’s sake HEALTHY people-OR none at all.
Being at a bar, as you mentioned is not good. You get the worst of all worlds, risk drinking, and crap just happens in those places.
Renew your spirit, renew your mind- You will never get that at a bar. To “do life” in a productive,healthy way you must have your cup filled. Find friends whom you can mutually help each other accomplish this. ANYONE that can’t join you in your life goals dosen’t belong there. Take care darlin.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 11:00pm
Aeylah says:
Dear Kindheart,
Surround your self with people that are the mirror of who you want to be. Think healthy thoughts and be with healthy people….so shall you be.
To all of us….Dare I say we are suffering from severe “love addiction”???? Could we be people who “loves too much”? we who love S seem to be. “Women who love too much” is the tittle of a great book by the way.
Love is such a powerful word….many people use it so casually that it looses it’s meaning when it should be used for a special bond between people. what is love? what is addiction to love? Love and being an addict to it when it’s with someone who is controlling, manipulating and toxic is very confusing….I am continuously exploring this myself as I get repeadedly sucked in by my X-S…whten he leaves me messages to say he “loves me like no other” and “I’m trully the only one he wants”….on and on…all the while he cheats and exploits and manipulates to get what he wants. The sick part is that on and off I fall for this insanity because I am “addicted to love” . Period. Recognize that what you are going through is an addiction and 1st and foremost you have to learn to recover from this addiction and learn to love your self again.
Low self esteem. # 1 reason we fall pray to the manipulating exploiting S. Learn to build your self esteem….I fight for mine every day.
I dont mean to get down on anybody here…only know that I suffer from the same addiction, and despite all my best effort to have NC and “learn to love myself 1st”…..the LOVE gets in the way.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 11:34pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Wini:
Your comment about talking to people about S’s is spot on!
My family abandoned me for the S and all his cons. He would show up at their house in another state and cook fabulous meals….to gain supply. They all turned into food whores along with his ‘whore’…. It was sickening to me to be abandoned by my own family during a major illness and divorce.
I tried to show them the truth, and throughout the years I was married to the S there was plenty of red flag behaviors they witnessed and questioned, but now chose to ignore. He had them believing I was faking cancer! How bizaar was that! He said I was mentally Ill instead…..so they all ran as far as he would take them.
My children and I were in great need of support and not only did they not support us on any level, they hindered us by feeding him information and support via supply.
WELL…..last week i got a call……it is suspected he broke into my family’s home and stole some items. All things he has currently. It was made to look like a true burglery, but what was taken was obviously needed and wanted by him.
NOW they are wanting to talk to me. I am so angry with them and I expressed my anger and the reality of all we have gone through…they seemed mortified.
BUT….it was only when THEY WERE VICTIMIZED did they wish to gain info. We were now in the same boat.
I think for most people, it’s just way to overwhelming to put their minds around. It’s usually SO outlandish, our stories and pain are questionable.
I also think that Sociopathy is portrayed as something only KILLERS have. And then there is Psychopathy…..that’s only something a movie is made of.
Too harsh and portrayed as something none of us know or have present in OUR lives in small town America.
I think it would help if the media did shows showing the non killing S or P. So the everyday human can relate on a downhome level, to see what WE live with.
I believe it’s all about raising awareness and educating society.
We are all touched by S’s in our lives at some point or another.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 12:03am
henry says:
Aeylah Ditto on the addiction thing – be it love booze drugs or sex. And we that fight daily to keep our self esteem out of the gutter have to look at the cause and reason of that low self esteem before we can really begin to heal. Numbing ourselves with past behaviors and patterns – like another toxic love addiction – only keeps us low – I think most of us that end up here at lovefraud know that we must stop the madness and take a hard look at our futures. Whats out there? How do we find it? If we look too ourselves we are half way there. Some of us struggle so hard to overcome our past. How do we do that? Start from scratch and stop the addictions and patterns that keeps us standing still. Good post aeylah
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 12:04am
ErinBrockovich says:
Kindheart:
All the above advice is great…..
Here’s my 2cents.
My GF’s say I am a ‘23 year old virgin’. I was with my ex S for almost 3 decades and never dated anyone else. Put that way, with an ‘adult’ mind….that scared the crap out of me to date. My head would like the companionship (my body too at times), but not having the confidence in myself to guarentee that I won’t land up with another S….keeps me from looking. I am spending this time learning about myself and what it was in ME that I was okay being treated and sucked in like I voluntarily did.
I know I am a great person. I do have a desire to trust again. I do want to be in a happy relationship at some point in my life, I have a lot to offer…..But I AM NOT READY NOW!
It also helps knowing that I’m in the middle of my divorce and consumed….what the heck do i have to talk about. How I did recon, what I dug up and that I was divorcing a S and have an extended order of protection??? That makes good first date stories!
So take the time for YOU….whatever time YOU need. Stay away from unhealthies…..As I say “shake it up girl” Meaning change your surroundings and allow yourself to do and attract people into your life you never would before. Then…..learn from them too. Take notes from people in your life that are healthy thinkers….what you admire about them…..and walk the walk.
Good luck, your looking for help……your heading in the right direction!
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 12:23am
James says:
Interesting question? What to look for first?
A inability to love or
Their nature of manipulation and exploitation
I would also have to go with Matt’s comment on this one.
These people are great actors and can fake emotions like love. But one can see their nature of manipulation and exploitation not only with us but also those that they know or should I say have known.
There would be a clear pattern of this type of abuse with family members friends and business partners. Being manipulative and being able to exploit others also means not caring for these same people. If we love someone or even care about them it’s harder to exploit them without the aftereffect of guilt and shame. So if one does and/or has the ability to manipulate and exploit others that in itself show us they lack the ability to love bond with others. Or is this too much rationalization on my part?
Anyway, both of these traits (manipulation and exploitation} would be something they would be proud of so therefore would slip up and talk about telling someone how they “put the bag over” that person. What does the bible tell us? “Pride cometh before a fall“.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 5:40am
Aeylah says:
Thanks Henry. It takes a tremendous amount of self reflection to see how and why we stay addicted to anything and attract sociopaths into our lives.
Co dependance is one character trait that I identify with. It’s part of the caring, nurturing and foregiving part of the personality, and in doing so we try to “fix” the S ….as we all know this is impossible to do, but in the co-dependant characteristic we are putting too much energy focusing on their behaviour, because in doing so you displace the energy from looking at your own behaviour and issues.
also agree with Matt, James and all others who post here and who have articulated so well the S inability to love and be exemplerary actors at it.
on of my favorite statements and tests for truth and honesty…especially when someone like our S claims love is
“actions speack louder than words”.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 6:18am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kindheart,
At this point in time, sweetie, I would DISTANCE COMPLETELY myself from anyone who is NOT HEALTHY….if that means you distance yourself from EVERYONE, that is okay too.
People who are alcoholic, druggies, or living disordered lives are TOXIC for you right now.
First, you went around these people (the toxic man and toxic woman) and when they did what THEY DO, verbally attacked you, YOU FOUGHT BACK which = drama “I’m not gonna let this bimbo….ya da ya da” LOOK at what YOU DID, first, you went around someone TOXIC, knowing she was toxic, you MINIMIZED the man’s “problems” (“he’s a great guy, BUT AN ALCOHOLIC) and then when she verbally attacked you, which you KNEW IN ADVANCE SHE WOULD out of her jealousy, you came back at her verbally, risking a fist fight (“I thought she might hit me”) and then JUSTIFIED your behavior in verbally bashing her by saying “after all I had done to try to help her.”
Kindheart, this is typical PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE behavior on YOUR PART. Putting youself in a situation that is going to explode then trying to justify why you did it.
To some extent all of us here have done some of these things, but LEARNING TO RECOGNIZE that “good guys” are NOT also alcoholics, drug addicts, bank robbers, thieves, con men etc. even if they are “good guys” 99% of the time and the “bad” things only 1% of the time.
RAT POISON is 99% PURE CORN MEAL and only 1% poison, so what does that mean? It means it will STILL KILL YOU.
As long as you continue to associate with these people and to engage in passive aggressive and self destructive behavior, you will not be able to make progress toward healing youself and your life. It means that YOU must make a COMPLETE turn around in YOUR behavior and in YOUR REACTION to these other people. Until you do that, you will never lfeel better….and it isn’t about the ADHD or any medication, it is about HOW YOU ACT. ADHD does NOT “make” you behave this way, you are CHOOSING TO BEHAVE THIS WAY….you need, in MY opinion, to CHOOSE to behave in a healthy way.
I know this is some difficult knowledge to accept, I had to accept this same knowledge but it is the TRUTH….and the truth will set you free, but it most likely will piss you off first.
I am not trying to piss you off but I am trying to make plain the TRUTH. I am speaking to you a truth that may “taste bad” because in order to accept it, you must also accept that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR BEHAVIOR. ((((hugs))))))
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 10:16am
kindheart48 says:
Thanks, Erin Brok and you are right on. I need t venture out of this town and the same haunts i’ve been going to for years, just hard knowing where to head to and find someone willing to go . I don’t mind cruising around alone in my convertible so that’s good but i do oneed to get out of Dodge so to speak. My youngest is coing home tom from Banff alberta so he’ll keep me busy. You are right too, all these people who came into my life after my separation, i never would have been with any of them when married. I just let everyone in and accepted them all , got me into a lot of trouble and heartache. Like you im not remotely interested in men other than for friendship and that’s the problem, have a few int but they always want more. Deep down i think i have intimacy issues myself as the only two i let in were the one i mentioned in earlier post(alcholic but kind) and th e s, i’ve been told it was because they were safe, no chance of relationships with them but i still got my heart slammed with the s . It’s going to take some work figuring out what i want for sure and what made me suceptible to the s, alot of things, my father, childhood, great qualities that worked against me, i am just kind of stuck in a place that is not even comfortable any more. I want to live life i just need to find some things to do. thanks again for your 2cents it’s greatly appreciated. I will keep you posted and if you have any more suggestions as to what to do for excitment let me know kh
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 10:23am
ErinBrockovich says:
Kindheart:
I have a few pennies left from my nickle.
I don’t mean to hammer you,….and like Oxy, I am speaking my truth out of caring.
I think you need to concentrate on YOU….not your desires. What I mean is, you need to ’shake it up’ from your normal routine. I didn’t mean by that, go to another dig with a different person….I meant REALLY shake it up….Stop going out, spend time by yourself, get to know what makes YOU tick without relying on people and places. Your passing the buck onto those things to provide you happiness, it is an endless chase.
Go on a self impossed quarenteen, read, knit, color or do a home improvement….something you are never likely to have done before. Make yourself reflect on YOU. Clean out every closet in your home, and as you do it think about an area in your life/mind that needs cleaning out and work on that.
I think you are concerned with keeping busy, and I get the impression you are running and dodging.
Boredom is not your enemy.
Go for a drive with the top down…BY YOURSELF! Have a picnic, BY YOURSELF. Shake up your whole routine, for an extended period.
Re-introduce the new and aware you into ’society’, via small contacts….test yourself conversing with the person at the 7-11 as you get coffee. Do and say things you would NEVER had done….like maybe commenting on someones big smile and letting them know they have brought some sunshine into your day and smile back, see how you feel inside…..I did this to test peoples responses to me and I was so shocked, it was contagious and it grew on me, it brings awareness to our behaviors. (I am not suggesting being a people pleaser, it’s more of a test for your own awareness of behaviors in yourself)
I am becoming the person I want to be, comfortable in myself. I hid behind my S for almost 30 years! Who the hell am I. The best part of my battle, is I hold my head high and I know I am a good person and I genuinly like myself. One of the things I like about ME is I smile and laugh, against MAJOR adversity.
Growth is good, but you must seek it, it will not be handed to you. When you are ready, you will go after it.
Life has a way of churning back at you what you don’t get the first time.
As Henry Ford said: Whether you think you can or think you can’t…..your right.
This may take months, (i’m on 2.5 years) but you must know and like yourself before you can be happy in any relationship (friend, lover, mother, sister etc). You have a good start by exploring your intimacy issues….that will keep you busy for a while. Dig in, feel the pain, work through and you will be amazed at who comes out the other side.
You’ll be hangin in places and with people you currently would never imagine, having the time of your life….with quality and happiness.
It’s all worth the work and wait….IT”S YOU!!!
Have a beautiful day….
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 11:48am
Rosa says:
Ability to love vs. manipulation/exploitation
Matt & Sarah’s theories are both correct.
Matt is correct in that, as adults, manipulative and exploitative traits are what we should be looking for UNLESS there is a small child in the equation (age 0-5yrs). NOTHING WILL EXPOSE A PSYCHOPATH’S INABILITY TO LOVE FASTER THAN A BABY WITH A PSYCHOPATHIC MOTHER!!
So, Sarah’s theory, ability to love, is what you look for if there is a small child in the equation.
I know this first-hand. My brother’s wife is a psychopath and she has been abusing my niece since birth. I am “Rosalyn” from the post: “When Relatives Suspect Child Abuse”.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 11:50am
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, going through some pain today. Wondering what it is that i wasn’t enough when i know it’s not me, but it still hurts. my life will never move forward if i don’t deal with the pain i know. It hasn’t been that long with the no contact maybe a month but i waffle from reality to illusion and missing and hating. love kh
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 5:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kindheart,
I am with Erin on this one too, sweetie, you need to BE BY YOURSELF, other people’s problems DISTRACT you from what is going on with YOU.
Getting to KNOW OURSELVES without anyone else around is a big BIG BIG!!!! step. It may seem really strange at first to just be BY YOURSELF. NO TV, “no phone, no pool, no pets”…just YOU….and LISTEN to what goes on inside your head. What are the “voices” in there telling you?
Get comfortable with KH before you start interacting with others and “keeping busy”—Keeping busy distracts you from the THINKING you need to do about yourself. Peace and happiness is INTERNAL, no one else can give it to you, you must find it in the QUIET meditation of your own soul!
((((hugs))))) Oxy
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 5:22pm
Stargazer says:
Kindheart,
HUGS. It’s so painful healing from this. Let it out. You have so much support here. There’s a point after going back and forth where you just get to rock bottom, when you realize there is no hope whatsoever. It’s a very painful realization. The pain is overwhelming and nothing can stop it. That’s a turning point in your healing.
And when you have a minute, go back and read my UPDATE on the “Recovering from a Sociopath” thread. I hope it will give you the slightest hope that justice can be served with these bastards.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 5:24pm
Rosa says:
Kindheart48:
It sounds like your pain is still really new and that is the toughest place to be. Just know that time heals all wounds.
I don’t know your religious background, but whoever your GOD is, START PRAYING. THERE IS COMFORT IN PRAYER.
A strong relationship with God will pull you through anything. God has a plan for all of us. And he will bring the right man into your life when the time is right.
When I was really young, someone told me, “Rejection is God’s protection.” That really stuck with me. When a relationship (or anything) does not work out, just know that is not what God has planned for you. There is something better waiting just around the corner, probably when you least expect it!!
But you have to be open to it.
Your best days are ahead of you, not behind you!!!
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 5:58pm
Stargazer says:
Oxy, did you see my update?
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 6:02pm
endthepain says:
Im defintiely feeling KH right now…..no contact…but the feelings are overwhelming..started having anxiety again today…I go from hating to missing..I have spent alot of time in the last few days remembering all that was there and it was all pretty bad…I dont miss the feelings..I miss the illusion…I know now it was never real..but boy the pain and the aftermath sure is….not sure about medication as I have said before….just trying to deal with all of this and Im sooooooooo tired and mentally drained
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 7:08pm
usedabused says:
Sorry to read that KH is still reeling, but it does take time and it is important to give this to ourselves.
When I got away from my S, I got close again to another old drama queen friend, probably another S who I’d stayed away from for a few years. Then a man pursued me relentlessly, I told him I was not ready but he pushed his way into my life. Looking back I realize it was the S traits that attracted me and like with any S, the first 3 or 4 months were terrific.
Then he managed to move in here without any real discussion, when I tried he said “you’re hurting my feelings.” And he proceeded to take over my home and my life. But he never really had my heart, the whole time I was burning in anger but had never forgotten the other S. Then his lies, temper tantrums, unscrupulous deals (even ripped friends of mine), turned me cold. One day I said to myself “I wish this were his house so I could just leave” — that’s how I knew how I felt.
It was only about 3 weeks after that, but did not know how to do it without risk of violence, injury, the old S shows back up. Left the one he left me for. By then, the sight of the man I was living with made me sick, we were hardly speaking to each other. There was no emotional sadness when I finally got him out, if I was an acrobat I would have turned cartwheels.
I was so desperate to get out of that situation that I completely forgot the pain my S had put me through less than a year before. Ran back to him (now in another city) as soon as I could arrange it and while we agreed to “take it slow” he swindled me out of about thousands before I learned the truth. He had called me because he was in a money jam.
What I learned here was that he was not only not in love, but not even attracted to me. He was ruthlessly saying whatever he needed to to get me to pay his bills. That’s all it ever was. I cannot describe how that hurts. And he wanted me to be OK with it, made jokes about it no matter how many times I told him not to. That if the situation made me the breadwinner so be it but don’t make jokes about it. Kept it up. I left a few times because of these jokes.
But my point is that I knew that about a year before I took him back. If I had taken the time to really get over him, to understand what had happened, learned to see him for the S that he is, “round two” would never have happened. The way it went down, he was around and I had no chance to grieve until I moved, then the other marched in and took over.
So when he called, my heart leaped out in joy. I was still in love with him. Nothing had changed.
With S # 2, he’s tried to see me, emailed. The thought makes me ill. I just wish I felt the same about the other.
This time I’m taking the time. This site is so comforting. Today, I was missing him so bad I was starting to tell myself maybe I was wrong about him. By the time I broke it off, they really had broken up and he was ready to make an honest try with me, but I had already visited this site and knew he could never change.
Feeling better now, thanks, everyone, maybe I can now get some work done.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 7:38pm
kindheart48 says:
thanks guys for all the support and i am sitting here and i go back to when i first met the s and how hurt i was that my husband and i had separated. He was so responsible and took care of me and i was so lost , hurt, relapsed in sobriety , as one male friend said i was literally traumatized already when the s came up my driveway and yes i see how i was targeted. Six years is a long time to live in Oz and not reality , no wonder we are so wounded. I was out cleaning my windows today and the s. best buddies went by and waved and you know i’m learning alot about men in general. got down off the ladder and started to was h my car windows and sure enough he came driving by again and pulled in driveway. This guy is on his third marriage and has tried to be supportive in telling me to stay away from the s but i see how he bats both sides. Didn’t want to admit it but they are cut from the same cloth. He sat in my driveway , paranoid i think that the s would driveby . Didn’t mention his name at all but is acting like he’s my friend. I m not so naive anymore and he should be paranoid, if his wife ever found out im sure she wouldn’t appreciate it. What a bunch i’ve met, lately a slew of married but not to each other men, i just can’t beleive it . I would have killed or castarated my husband if he carried on like these idiots. Do they think i can’t find a single man? (i can’t but that’s beside the point hahah). It would look good on the s if he saw him at my house but it would stir up trouble and i’ve had enough to last me a long time. Im still hurt and would love to put him in his place but not worth it. His loss. Usedabused i feel what you are feeling , he could be very nice but in such small intervals, we have what they call “thank god for small graces” attitude and tha’ts not love. My husband loved me unconditionally, when i gained weight, and it was consistent. I know the difference but i invested so much in the s , everything is so onesided. Very hard lesson that i wouldn’t want anyone to go through. I’ve decided im going to try and just plain ignore him, doesn’t exist, no response. It goes against the grain but it’s the only payback that they get. I owe him NOTHING at all. NOTHING. iF HE were on the side of the road injured, (remember this is not my nature) i would hope that i would drive right on by as i said earlier, i owe him NOTHING. I at times wonder if it was me too USED but i know it wasn’t . My expectations of him were so low and he couldn’t even meet them . They would rather start with someone new than work on anything, path of least resistance, they have no fortitude or determination. Without a doubt he has been the biggest mistake of my life but i can’t change it and have it not be a mistake but i can work on not letting it ruin anymore of my life. love to you all. kindheart
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 8:02pm
Rosa says:
KindHeart, UsedAbused, EndthePain:
Darlings, all I can tell you is that in today’s society, you have to kiss a HELL of a lot of FROGS before you get your prince.
But the Prince will come.
Just Believe!!
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 8:08pm
usedabused says:
KH -
I’m consoling myself that not hearing from me, not getting the “I’m so sorry can we talk” messages he got from the other when we were together is the only thing that hurts him even a little. Not an ouch hurt like we feel, just the loss of power.
If I were to call or email, it would just give him another chance to hurt me. Hang up. Tell him I had abused his trust. Start punishing me. Not giving him the chance is best. Thanks for understanding.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 8:34pm
slimone says:
Hello Everyone Here,
I have not posted much because, get this, I don’t feel ‘helpful’. Instead I feel like I need from others, and this makes me so uncomfortable I can hardly work up the nerve to write anything here. Well, forget that…here goes.
And the other truth is I relate to SO much of what I read here, I can hardly gather my responses into a cohesive sentence or idea. This place is a hotbed of kindness, intelligence, and wisdom.
I have only (in the last two years) just discovered that I have been in friendships and relationships (in the last 35 years) with about 8-10 of these creatures. Interesting though it wasn’t till this last one that I really hit the bottom. The last few left me reeling, but it wasn’t until I found out WHAT they were that my heart completely felt shattered. And that I became afraid.
Plus this last time around I forfeited much more of my security, heart, and resources.
It has been 20 months since the last. It was a ‘love’ relationship. 10 months. A ’speedball’ of a relationship. I lost some money, a car, my innocence, and my belief in the power of ‘you name it’.
I have had zero contact.
I saw him for the first time in 20 months and I had a physical reaction that ruined my day. I would have thought after all this time, all my knowledge, my commitment to being out of any other relationship, my sleeping/eating/yoga, hanging only with good and true folks, that I would have been spared the PTSD response.
But I wasn’t. I shrank, my head throbbed, my heart beat like a racehorse’, my thoughts became fragmented and disordered, and I felt SO sad. So out of my life. And it has persisted now since Saturday. I feel a ‘renewed’ sense of loss and failure and anger and hopelessness. This morning, as I drove to see my first patient, I thought ‘why is he still alive?……How can it be that he GETS TO BE ALIVE?’
I felt just like the smallest and most unwanted speck. I cannot seem to be able to find, and hold onto, my SELF.
Is this OK? Am I still healing or am I stuck? I cannot tell. I know none of you can actually answer this question. However, I cannot help but ask it.
I barely saw the man out of my peripheral vision and my whole body went berserk! I feel betrayed by my own body. I tried so hard to stay with my understanding, connected to my friends I was with, to focus on the art and conversation. Instead, I felt like puking and crying.
Have others of you felt this? Should there ever be a time when he wouldn’t have this effect on me? Just seeing him left me drained, small, and lonely.
It’s good to know what I know. But I gotta be honest and say it hasn’t, as yet, made me FEEL all that great knowing it.
I want a partner. I want my power back, for good. I want to enjoy what is in front of me, those I love, myself.
Thanks for listening. Slim
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 8:44pm
usedabused says:
Yes, I have. I’ve seen so much here tonight I can relate to.
There was a place I used to see my S during the “good days” the first few months, even year of our attachment.
A few weeks ago, I rode past the sign for the place! Just the sign on the highway. And my body was tingling like I was about to see him.
They programmed us. For you, seeing him brought back the ugliness. My signal was something I associated with good times.
And I did see him, for just a moment, through a door the night I broke it off by phone. I instinctively turned around towards my friend, I was so afraid he would derail what I was doing. That night I was broken up. It was sad, he was waiting by the door for me.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 8:55pm
Rosa says:
Slimone:
I dated a sociopathic bad boy in my 20’s, and I could not get him out of my system for the longest time. He was like a drug.
I have not seen this guy in 14 years.
His father passed away 6 weeks ago. When I saw his name listed as a “survivor” in the obituary, my stomach turned again.
Just at the sight of his name in the newspaper!
So, there you have it. I don’t know if the trauma ever goes away completely.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 9:10pm
endthepain says:
usedabused…as with most of these posts..I can relate to what you say….I know he doesnt hurt..but like you I know he expects..the Im sorry can we talk…messages..and they arent coming..at least not from me…I have taken away his power over (as far as he knows for now) I let him kow I wasnt going to be pit against the other woman while he aloows hetr to do HIS dirty work..I dont blame her..I pity her as he is in far deepr than I was and she is losing everyhting because of him and still back with him..she is still in misery..not me..however I will not allow their dysfunctionbal relationship to be played anywhere near my son…so I have chanhed my number he has no way to call me and he can deal with the courts regarding anmything pertaining to our son..the trauma of all of this has been so gut wrencing…as we all have said..and how I was feeling today..somedays I am strong as hell and other days so tired and emotionally drained!
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 9:16pm
usedabused says:
You are doing right, I feel sorry for her too. Jane and I were talking very regularly, but not this weekend. Sometimes I wonder if they got back together and he was relaying messages to me through her. I’ll just give her a call tomorrow and see how she’s doing, sounded like an incredible woman who I would like to know, and we were like sisters there for awhile. I’ll always be grateful to her for calling me, even if it was just to get even with him and screw this up for him. It saved my life.
There were things I said in the last weeks that I wondered if he knew it was over. Exactly what you just said, “he’d lost his power over me, get over it” and “if I knew I was with someone who was after me for money I’d extricate myself.”
Then acted like all was well.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 9:37pm
kindheart48 says:
reading all the posts and i can’t help but feel pissed at how this effects us and how it (the ptsd) is always waiting in the wings. I know from talking to prior victims of the s. it does get better but it is the most awful feeling. When i read these posts i wish i could take away everyones pain and put it back on the person it belongs to the sociopaths but they never own anything. Pitiful creatures , empty, hollow nothing , can’t even call them beings. Boy i’m on a mad roll tonight. It’s so unfair that we have to bear the pain long after they are gone. Such toxic creatures to wreck such havoc on everyone they go near. I wish that i could forget the s for the rest of my life and not give him a shred of headspace but it is going to take some time to change the patterns of thinking but i know it can be done. He’s so not worth the energy. He’s one big Joke that doesn’t get it . love kindheart
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 9:50pm
usedabused says:
This site has been amazing tonight, it’s like everyone is on at once, almost like we could all be in the same room.
KH, will we ever forget? I asked a friend that a few minutes ago and she told me to come over, she’s worried about me. The headspace is not for him but for me, I need to understand and get past it. He is lost. A robot, a hologram of a human.
I think Donna should get a Nobel Prize for this.
The feeling is like being raped though emotionally not physically. Robbed of the most precious gift we could ever give anyone, and not too many maybe 2 or 3, in our entire lives. And he stole those feelings. Gave us enough to think it was reciprocated for awhile and then exploited us.
Fraud on an emotional level is worse than business fraud. I told the S that and he kind of grumbled, like he knew.
Nobody will ever love him like I did, even his ex knew that, that she did not need him like I did.
And all he wanted was my money.
It’s sickening.
Thanks, KH. I need to check on Slimone, she’s not having a good night, and I’m getting out of the house for an hour.
Peace.
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Monday, 27 April 2009 @ 10:09pm
Tilly says:
Sarah, they are not jealous of our ability to love..they see it as a weakness. They see us as vulnerable weak idiots, with no use except to provide them power, knowledge, sex, money or ego boosting and status.
Once they have taken all of that and devalued us to boost their status, we are thrown out and replaced. Period.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 2:50am
slimone says:
Thanks for your responses. I did some yoga, took a mg of Klonopin, and hit the sheets for a good night sleep. I think I am going to see a psychiatrist. I have been coping with this PTSD for 20+ years, and afer the s it has become, finally, maybe more than I can continue to bear. I would just like to see what a professional might have to say, in terms of medication. I have seen a therapist, a wonderful MSW, off and on for 18 years. But I think I might try a consultation with a psychiatrist. Just to see what they say.
I am just SO effing tired. Well this morning I am a bit groggy from the Klonopin, but at least I am not anxious. And maybe I can eat and add a few pounds on to this ’slim one’.
I will check back later. I love this site!
Thanks again, Slim
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 10:29am
ErinBrockovich says:
As a GF and I describe our emotions…(we have walked the path of divorce together) It’s like a roller coaster of highs and lows….the key is to limit the highs and the lows and try to live on a more even keel.
I think we are so in need of the highs that we blow them higher, but as the old saying goes….what goes up must come down.
Try to keep it all in the midrange.
I have found this helpful.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 10:57am
susan6922 says:
ErinBrockovich and Oxdrover:
And to all users who expressed this or similar thoughts – I am looking back on my life (through a Gift received as a result of a “straw that broke the camel’s back” moment) and I now realize one truth: the only person I can change is myself. That includes my actions, reactions, perceptions and pre-conceptions. I have encountered several sociopaths (probably undiagnosed) in my life. The one who had the biggest influence was my ex-husband. I was a classic target; programmed from a very early age to avoid open conflict at all cost, to believe in the potential “good” inherent in all human beings, to suppress anger, to doubt my instincts, intuition and knowledge and defer to “authority”, and to “put on my happy face” and present my best image, even when I knew IN MY SOUL, it was innately wrong to do so. It has cost me dearly, and incalculably, in terms of my self-esteem, physical health, financial stability, and overall ability to function as a healthy individual. However, there is a happy and continuing fundamental lesson I have learned from my “epiphany”: I have a choice. I can choose to continue ancient, crusty, molding, and disabling patterns of behavior and their associated consequences, (including self-destructive coping mechanisms) and suffer through life; or I can choose to learn and embrace new, healthy alternatives and establish a “re-birth”, so to speak, of myself. I have decided upon the latter. This isn’t easy. It is tedious at times, and completely antithetic with what I have ingrained in my brain through years of repetition. It requires discipline, meditation, isolation (for a time) to reassess my former “support system”, and most difficult, it requires the courage to take a leap of faith when choosing to actually step out there and put to use what I have learned. In short: awareness, acceptance, and finally – action. Let me add, action based upon careful consideration of the matter to be addressed. There’s no other way for me – my entire life depends upon this process. But guess what? It WORKS! I can change but one person: me. Simply said, but not easily done. I simply refuse to be a victim anymore. I am saddened at times, and I stumble like a child, but I keep on keeping on. It gets easier everyday. It also becomes more efficient and effective the more I try. Yes, I now firmly believe there is an active evil in this world, and not everybody is fundamentally good. It’s up to me (and my Protector) to make the discernment. It’s up to me to make the choice to change. And change, while painful in the process, has been a GOOD thing for me! This has been my first post, and I hope someone finds it useful. Itty-bitty steps, itty-bitty steps. Your blogs helped give me hope to just reach out and try – many thanks!
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 1:10pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Susan,
I am glad that you are here at LF and that you felt comfortable enough to share your remarkable insights with us. YOU ARE SOOOOOOO RIGHT!!!! It is the way we were “programmed” and at first we didn’t see this as “wrong” but yet we never completely accepted it either, but NOW WE DO SEE—unlike the people as Jesus said “who have eyes and see not, who have ears and hear not” —and we finally, FINALLY, FINALLY “get it.” We can ONLY change ourselves.
Accepting that was difficult for me, DOING that was even MORE DIFFICULT but I am starting to “get the hang” of it somewhat and each new success leads to more successes.
Again, Welcome, Susan, and glad you are here! (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 1:22pm
JaneSmith says:
Good afternoon, peeps…
You know, I read as many articles and comments as I can here on LF when I have time to really focus on what is being said in an effort to assimilate, comprehend and empathize with you all.
Actually, dagnabit, I make the time! This website not only offers priceless, valuable knowledge but it also has allowed me the privilege, the honor to develop caring connections with wonderful people I might not ever meet in real time.
None of you are only words on a page, but living, breathing, hurting, loving, exceptional people who continuously deeply touch my heart, my mind, my spirit in ways that literally blow me away.
You all have become meaningful additions to my own spiritual journey and I am eternally grateful to you even though you probably didn’t have a clue to this reality.
And really….how can I not foster geniune affection and sincerest concern for kindred spirits?
Lovely, wonderful people who share similar characters and personalities with me, yet many times supercede my own limited view on what it means to be a true human being by honestly revealing, through your life-long trials and tribulations, how exemplary you are.
You all humble me, and that’s a good thing. Keeps me from getting a huge, fat head thinking I’m all this and all that!…..haha.
I remember what Kathleen wrote in one of her essays regarding the misery and devastation caused, during and after involvements with psychos, where she brilliantly proclaimed that if we all can heal and recover from the total disaster, the fallout from loving and caring for psychos and being hourly, daily abused by them, that we will become incredibly resilient to all future obstacles that DARE to cause us harm.
That we begin to easily roll with the punches that life sets before us. After the ridiculous mess of psychos, anything that happens to us doesn’t seem so formidable any longer.
We have become stronger, more resourceful, more capable and competent than we ever gave ourselves credit for before.
So true! Thank you so very much, Miss Kathleen Hawk!!
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 1:41pm
Sarah999 says:
To a NORMAL person . . . To love someone . . . is to care about THEIR “well being”.
A P/N/S only cares about someone else’s well being, when they are getting something from them (i.e., exploiting them). When the victim is no longer of any use to the P/N/S . . . the N/P/S no longer cares about them.
The P/N/S does get a TEMPORARY “feeling of love” when they are successfully exploiting their victim.
I believe the “OPPOSITE of LOVE is EXPLOITATION”. Because when you are exploiting someone . . . you DON’T care about the victims “well-being”.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:18pm
Sarah999 says:
Further . . the N/P/S must always WIN. If they can exploit you, to get their “feeling of winning” . . . you are useful to them. If they can put you down . . they win! If they can lie to you & gas-light you . . they win! If they can rage at you . .they win! If they can hit you . .they win! If they can charm you . .they win! I believe the P/N/S creates situations with the victim, where they WIN . . and thus they feel good. They EXPLOIT their victim, inorder to WIN.
They care “not a twit” about the victim’s well being. EXPLOITATION IS THE OPPOSITE OF LOVE.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:29pm
shabbychic2 says:
Sarah999: Yes, you are right, amazing how something so complicated can be worded so simply and yet be so profound.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 12:34am
Tilly says:
Yes you are right, they are jealous and envious in the extreme and must win and control to feel powerful. I doubt if they can feel fondness or any other emotion except hate and greed and ambition.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 3:34am
housie says:
Most days “he” is not in the forefront of my mind. I so agree with OxDrover in that I have really come to believe that until I discover a relationship with ME, I will not be living in the life that God has planned for me. For so many years I was the victim. I didn’t know how to be any other way. I watched my mother be a victim, and to handle her pain, she had an affair with a married man for 30 years – picking someone, once again, who was not available for her. What I have come to see, (and for SOME of us, that takes a long time), is that I have unresolved issues from my childhood. I ran into the arms of many men between ages 19-24, I was promiscuous and thought that sex was love. At 19, I met this “wonderful” man on the beach at Waikiki – he was gorgeous and he paid attention to me. At the time, my self-esteem was in the barrel, and I thought I was fat, helpless and worthless. As I look back, I realize I was not fat; I had long blonde hair and a beautiful body. I was compassionate, nurturing and was suffering from learned helplessness. I had a 19 year old body and a 4 year old mind. I was needy, desperate for love and a victim waiting for its prey – looking for someone to complete me. I hadn’t a clue who “me” was. The s circled me on the beach like a vulture capturing his prey. We fed off of one another. There was a payoff for both of us. I hadn’t a clue what real love was. I only knew what “longing and yearning” felt like, and I needed a fix. That was in 1967. In this year of 2009 in the month of April, I “finally” got it – that I had been in the clutches of an evil predator who had falons dipped in time released poisonous venom that enveloped my soul and choked it mercilessly for 4 decades. The addiction was beyond description as I fought for the little fragment of my soul that was left to have life breathed into it. All I could do was lay on the floor and pray with what little strength I had left to a God I thought had forsaken me. I had truely hit bottom, and was as hopeless as the dying can be – 100% hopeless apart from Divine Help. What happened? Suddenly out of the abyss came a gutteral scream and with it New Life. I had a conversion experience, and the bondage was removed INSTANTLY. God commenced to do for me what I COULD NOT do for myself. I saw through new eyes, and I heard through new ears. I was FREE! God had also placed me back in my hometown 2 months before this happened after a 38 year absence – the town I lived in when I met the s. I have gone back to my Catholic faith, the faith I left to join the s in the cult with his N mother for 16 years. So, you see, I have come full circle in this saga. Am I the same person? No…much wiser, and filled with a knowledge that my MSW doesn’t even touch. I learned this new truth in the school of adversity and thralldom. What does the future have in store for this 62 year old seasoned sage? Only the Lover of My Soul knows. He was there all along, living w/in me, but I was looking for love in all of the wrong places. How RELIEVED and GREATFUL I am to come HOME to myself and know it for the first time.
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 9:57am
henry says:
Beautiful and inspiring…………
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 11:16am
sabrina says:
Housie, I second Henry’s comment.Your a wise and humble woman. The words you used to describe the Lord- lover of my soul -is the most comforting thing we as S survivors can hear. All we have ever wanted and needed is someone who loves our SOUL- Our being, unconditionally.
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 11:59am
sabrina says:
Housie- Your post made me think of something- A S can NEver understand how much GOd loves them, b/c they have no ability to. Just as they cant love others in turn, the all encompassing peace that we have in knowing there IS a Lover of our Soul- the S has no comprehension. How scary and miserable to be like them- out in the world completely ALONE with only evil leading the darkness.
Thankyou Housie, and everybody else here- You light up the Darkness!
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 12:06pm
IT says:
The Truth is we don’t need someone to make us compleet! We don’t need another person to be Happy! We don”t need someone else to be loved!
Our God! Our Higher Power is more than enough! It has been there all through each and every trial and is still there!
My God doesn’t force me to see the error of my choices , when I have acted or reacted because of my emotions and feelings. God lets me learn from my mistakes!
I make ALOT!
But God still walks with me and talks with me and slowly and painfully I am learning God is all I really Need! Everything else is secondary. When I Trust God First! everything flows the way it is supose to! When I think I know better , It’s like swimming upstream! Peace
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 1:17pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear IT,
Awesome, inspiring post…and I agree with much of what you said…except how does God let you learn from your mistakes if not allowing you to see the error of your choices? I feel maybe there are no such things as mistakes, but rather they are lessons to be learned..but in order to do that I have to choose to see the error of my ways/choices at times. I only mention this because I feel its important to be able to balance the awareness that there is nothing forced or guiltridden about seeing the error of my choices when I have not reacted to the best of my self-respect, self-trust and self-worth…. I hope this makes sense and adds to the beauty and wisdom of your words…as we all swim upstream together! God Bless You
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 1:55pm
shabbychic2 says:
I am finally getting it that I don’t need someone else to make me complete… but I am very lonely, what do I do with that? I almost can’t bear it, which is probably why I’ve been attracted to ANYONE who seemed to want to be with me.
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 2:33pm
OxDrover says:
Housie, and the rest of you wonderful, inspiring people! You are all so right on! Sometimes we must be FLAT OF OUR BACKS to LOOK UP! I know that in my case for sure.
There are some situations that we cannot handle ourselves, and if we don’t depend on our faith, we can’t even survive.
The spiritual aspect of healing I think is one of the most important aspects that we can recognize. Whatever your faith is, I think we have to have a faith in something bigger and outside of ourselves in order to cope with the traumas too big to comprehend. Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s search for meaning” which he wrote after he spent years in a Nazi prison camp was an eye opener for me. His search for meaning from the trauma he suffered and the total loss of everything he held dear, and yet, finding meaning in that trauma through his faith inspired me as nothing else ever has. I suggest that anyone who has suffered losses read this book. (((hugs))) and prayers for you all.
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 2:52pm
learnthelesson says:
Shabbychic,
Isnt it empowering to finally get that!
Something I wanted to accomplish was really rid myself of that lonely feeling…so that when and if I meet someone I can really know its out of true mutual companionship and shared interests…not complete lonliness or desperation or need to fill a void… so what I did was….
get to know myself, spend time with myself, literally what do you want to do today…and DO IT…
I joined meetup.com for my favorite hobby… they have everything and anything you can think of that interests you…again I went with zero expecation to meet someone but to totally get caught up in the hobby and what I enjoy and what makes me feel good and feel productive. And I caution doing such with strangers from this group – i was social and friendly but never entertained any offers.. just not a smart idea.
I volunteer at school…(for me I have to be there anyway, but there are volunteer positions everywhere) it does so much for your inner spirit and can meet some really good decent souls depending where you go. The Ronald McDonald House for children always needs volunteers…as do so many other organizations and charities…it seems like ehh, maybe/maybe not…but once you are in the throws of it you dont have time to be lonely!
I visit LF…friends…get in car and go for ride or I like to go to thrift shops/antiques stores/yard sales….
The gym, parks, etc.
I think what I did was really worked hard at being ok with being with just myself. Before I would never go to the river and sit on a blanket with a book and chill out BY MYSELF…dont know why…just wasnt comfortable with it…but for now..I really enjoy the company of myself…i think it was really important for me to take this step in my journey…
I get lonely still at times, but much much less…and I have gone out on a few dinner dates, movie dates but with clarity and understanding I am interested in good friends and just getting to know myself for the first time in my life. This helps me to know what I want and helped to end that “attraction to anyone” void I was trying to fill…
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 4:10pm
Tilly says:
I have overcome the loneliness years ago and the neediness and I prayed for God to send me “my true heart partner for life in Your Will God and Your time, not mine” after the devastation of the solicitor. Then the “dentist psychopath exb ” turned up!
A new wave of revenge has returned. Why cant we get them back or get out personnal belongings and dog back…I seem to have forgotten, I hate the way this feeling of revenge consumes me.!It makes all the work I’ve done for years just seem like nothing. I’m slidin down the black hole again.
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 4:51pm
OxDrover says:
(((Tilly)))))
Sweetie, the feelings of anger and revenge are “normal” feelings and part of teh grief process, they will come and go, and go and come, so don’t let it spook you.
What I did that helped me some, was I would PRAY ALOUD for these people. Now, Tilly, I did NOT MEAN A WORD OF TEH PRAYER, and I know God knew I didn’t mean it, but I did it anyway…and you know what, after a while, I actually started to mean it! It actually helped me to forgive them….now forgiveness means to get the bitterness toward them out of my heart, it does not mean that what they did was ok, or that I would ever trust them or want a relationship with them, just that I worked the bittereness otu of my own heart! For MY benefit, not theirs,
The Bible, I think, gives us some good psychological advice, like “forgive those that do you wront”—not for their sake, but for OURS, ditto “pray for those that abuse you”—it helps US.
Bittereness after a while eats at you like a cancer iniside, so it is GOOD to oget this out of our hearts. Like all “bad things” it will seep back in, but we can drive it out permanently over time. then we can live in peace “that passeth understanding” when we don’t harbor hate and bitterenss. So, don’t let it spook you when it comes, just work it out and it will go away for a while, and if it comes again, :”rinse and repeat” and eventually it will go away and not come back.
You are a stronger woman than you may realize my dear! I admire your spunk! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 5:01pm
housie says:
OxDrover,
Great advice regarding praying for our enemies. In the Big Book of AA which we use for OA, there is a page suggesting we pray for the person we resent even if we don’t mean it. It suggests we do this for two weeks as a guideline, but that if we will pray for that person for their health, happiness and prosperity that in time we will come to mean it. We do this not for them, but for us. It has worked for me. It kind of reminds me of CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy) – changing the way we think to change the outcome. I can’t even imagine what it must be like to exist without the ability to love. As the anger diminishes, I find myself spending more days in acceptance forging a trail to the Promised Land flowing with milk and honey – I just need to practice, practice, and more practice. Today I went to my Mom’s to help her put up her summer Gazebo, and came home and watched a movie. I watched Benjamin Button with my son last night, and journaled and spent some time with that Lover of My Soul. I was not lonely. Also, yesterday I received a letter from husband #2 (not a P, but a recovering alcoholic of 18 years with some definite issues). He is working with a new sponsor (his old one died) – now maybe he can get well – anyway, he is working hard on his own issues, and it felt really good to say to myself, “Self, I don’t feel ready to answer this letter right now. I will shelf it while I work on my own recovery, and I will know when and if I want to respond sometime in the future.” I was married twice, and both times I picked toxic people because “I” was toxic. While I am happy for him that he is working on his own personal issues, I do not feel pressured to respond just yet if at all, but my first priority is self-care!! Wow!!! You ROCK girl!!! And this is a new part of me – not just something I am doing because I have been told it is right. You are all so precious to me as you teach me that you will love me until I can love myself, and even after!!
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 7:12pm
shabbychic2 says:
LTL: thanks for the advice, I do belong to some meetup groups but only the ones that are women only, we go to clubs, dinner, movies, Friday night at the horse races, free concerts, etc. I haven’t been doing too much lately because I am trying to conserve my savings account, I don’t have a job. I’ve gone to the mall and wandered around. I want to hike in the foothills here but I am worried about mountain lions! One thing I will not do by myself is go to dinner. I feel like a geek!!
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 7:33pm
Kittycat3660 says:
I seem to be falling between moments of anger and sadness and depression. My crazy man got me to pay his way out here from texas, pay his hotel bill all the while swearing he had money coming in. Got him and i a place. God what a mistake. I never could understand what mad him fly into a rage and throw things, throw and break wine glasses. He always blamed me but i never yelled back or started these fights. He drank like a fish, smoked, disrpespected everyone. He needs to go back to france. I am going through a period to learn why i let someone this toxic in. The mood swings, the cold and then warm person, the lies, the hiding my things, all of it so draining. I am trying to be strong but i am filled with not knowing what to do with myself. I cleaned up and painted the walls, got rid of all the icky of him, i feel bad for dumping him on someone else but i thank god he is gone. He made me feel out of control. I am out alot of money, he is off with someone else, and this woman he has convinced that it was me. I feel sorry for her. Do i warn her?? He cannot come back thank god and i dont want to see him ever again. He was a pig. At times he was the most charming man i ever met, so smart, has a phd and was making 168 thousand a year in hong kong, but never is working for long. He promised me so much, going back to france, etc. I dont want to go anywhere with him. I was so anxious to get him out that i lied about my daughter moving in. I started playing him, telling him i hate putting poisen in food but was he hungry?? i started making him be scared of me and im a very peaceful loving person. But i just started doing mind games with him. I took things from him and hid them like he did to me then would act like nothing happened. He started to doubt himself. This is not like me at all but i did get a tickle with messing with him. I just thank god every day i dont have to wake up to that smelly french idiot. I am alone and trying to recover. But i feel so empty inside and depressed. I think about this woman now that is supporting him and wonder if he has changed or ever will?? if not how could she not see that he drinks mornings, smokes like a chimney, has tantrums, throws up alot, etc. Why should i ever care, but i just thank god he is gone. do they ever change?? Will she wake up? She thinks he is the one, god i feel sorry for her
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Sunday, 17 May 2009 @ 11:58pm
henry says:
kitty kitty – I am so glad i am rid of the X creep also. And I went through all the depression and second guessing and went through emotions I was not prepared for. I really thot just geting his using ass out of my house would end the whole awful ordeal, so why did I plumet into despair when he did leave? I think it is because I almost let someone destroy me and I could see the physical and emotional damage he caused. And I looked around and i was in a nest of user’s, and breaking my neck to keep them all happy. My spirit was dying, and I was never in such a state of The Twilight Zone. So this has been a life lesson for me, it was me that laid down and let them wipe their feet on me – I can not live like that and respect myself
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 12:18am
Kittycat3660 says:
me to henry. In fact i have now set boundaries with my family. I have a very controlling sister that puts me down every chance and a brother that says i am like a jerry springer show. I am a productive, good person, been working for 7 years with a great company. I have been treated like crap all my life by them too. Now i am taking a stand. I will not take abuse from anyone anymore ever. They cannot hate me more than they already do. I also will never let a man take money from me or use me. I will not let someone ruin my day or mood from now on. I am learning and its hard. I put up with so much from people so that they would like me and love me. And i got nothing but disrespect. I am done with that. If anyone including my family is toxic, then i will avoid them at all costs. My spirit too almost died. I feel like a shell of who i once was. But i am learning about me. I spend alot of time alone and uncomfortable with that, but i have peace of mind, something this sick man could not give me. I was always on edge with him and he was so demanding of me and my time. Such a jerk. I almost got evicted from his outbursts and rages. never again.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 12:32am
henry says:
kitty – I am at 14 months no contact – I have recovered from most of the trauma and found myself again. I post here and there to relate and offer comfort. Dont beat yourself up too bad, most of my life has been one mistake after another and i am sure there will be more to come. But I did learn from this as horrible at it was/is – you will be ok – I still have my big kind heart and I wont let anyone take that away or abuse it..let’s just be happy for a change – I am trying and you are to – dont be bitter…..dont give them that.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 1:17am
Kittycat3660 says:
Lady bug killer. I know this may sound strange but something dawned on me tonight. He always told me ladybugs and moths were his good luck charms and he wanted this job in england so bad, so one day he picked up a ladybug from the porch and put it in an upside down baby food jar. Now i told him it will die, he said but its good luck. It died. This sticks in my mind. Knowing that the bug would die he did it for his own satisfaction, for his own pleasure, his own gain. It was exactly what he did with me. I know this sounds silly but i relate it to the cold person inside he was. Killing that lady bug for good luck. It was always about him, his needs, his search for work, his sadness, his doom. I keep remembering that look on his face when he caught it and jarred it. It bothered me. Of course it died. This made me realize so much, and i know it sound trivial but as long as his needs were met, he could move on, even at the risk of everything. Just had to share this. I am of course no ladybug but in the end, he would have killed me emotionally and mentally. I think he felt empowered being mean to my dog and that in itself is sick. When i would tell him to put my dog down he would tell me im crazy, the dog loved him. He was so twisted.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 1:47am
Tilly says:
Kittycat:
Mine was extremely abusive to my dog too. Then he wouldn’t return my dog to me when he threw me out/or I left (still not sure which it was, I can’t seem to remember all the events right now), anyway then he gave my dog to his daughter (who assaulted me). and then he made up lies and got a restraining order on me so I can’t go near any of his family to get my dog or my things. I fret for my dog who is due for vaccination and I am so angry and hurt.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 4:19am
Tilly says:
OxDrover,
I know what you are saying is the truth. And I have tried to pray for him but it doesn’t work for me. It just makes me madder. And it also makes me mad at myself for lying. So then i have prayed for the willingness to pray for him. But that didn’t work either. At best I can pray that he reaches some kind of rock bottom as soon as possible. Not just so that other people are spared the abuse but also that he might miraculously have to feel something…anything.
Oxy, I feel like I have made progress then BANG!! when these waves of anger come I often feel like I am going to burst, and it scares me. I feel like I might just go and kill him. I hate that I have to “rinse and repeat” all my life. I am afraid that a wave of revenge will hit me and i will lose control. I get SOOOO angry at him! Last night I dreamt I had a fist fight with his ex wife who is a huge enabler of his. She uses him for money and he uses her to pit people against each other. The nightmare seemed like it went for the whole night. I woke up angry that him and his ex were in my darn dream/head!! How dare they. Its been no contact for nearly six months! What if I lose the plot and go over there and kill him one day! Then my boy will be totally on his own and my whole life will have been a waste.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 4:34am
OxDrover says:
Dear Dear Tilly,
The “waves” of rage coming and going is NORMAL in a situation like this, but if you work at it, and stay STAY on the road to healing, it will slow down, decrease in intensity and eventually reach “acceptance” It won’t last for the entirety of your life.
My late husband, a great guy, was ripped off in 1976 by some professional con artists who swindled him out of a multimillion dollar business, wrecked it and tied it up in court for years. He never ever got over the anger of these people destroying his business and bankrupting it. But he did not want to get over it, he nursed that anger. fortunately, he did get up and get on with his life, but I icould never get him to see that he even SHOULD let go of the anger and rage. He loved that rage! LOL But I do think his life would have been much better if he had let go of it. He lost almost 7 years to that rage in and out of court and even when he eventually got the “company” (an empty shell by then) back, he had spent so much money and time and effort on “justice” that he could have had another company up and running and instead he was still broke!
I understand how much you feel lthe anger and the rage! I understand how you want to kill him. I actually plotted revenge on one of my Ps, but even though I icame up with what I thought was a “fool proof way” to get him, I REALLY don’t want to be a murderer, even if I “got away with it” I would know, God would know, and in the end, I would have to go turn myself in to the cops….Letting go of that anger, even when you don’t want to, is I understand DIFFICULT, and the way I did it was to FORCE myself to do what was RIGHT in my eyes, which was to pray for them, even though I did NOT mean a single word of it, and Iknow God knew I didn’t….but eventually it helped get the bitterness out of my heart, and that was the thing that helped me to find peace.
Bitterness is not something that makes US feel better, it is like a cancer, I think, and eats at us. It is a normal stage in healing and grief, but not a “pretty” or nice one, even for us. I do understand your rage and even your fear that you will go hurt him. It is ALL SO UNFAIR and you did NOT deserve to be treated that way, none of us did. nI suggest you get Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s search for meaning” and read it. It is a wonderful book that helped me to SEE that there IS meaning in the things we have endured and that “tribulation worketh patience” and that there are some lessons in all of this that if we will accept them, will in the end, make us better, stronger and kinder people. ((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you accepting your anger.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 9:30am
sabrina says:
Tilly- Is there a way that you could have a pastor or someone else go get your dog and things as your representative since you cant?
If I have the story right- your x S says you can get your belongings- via emails, etc. This may have already been discussed, in that case overlook this comment. I had a PFA on my x N/P but wanted his things out of my house. I signed a legal paper saying his representative- someone we both agreed was allowed to do the pick up.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 12:02pm
sabrina says:
TIlly- I can relate to what you are feeling. You have had a horrific experience in the hands of this mad man.
I also wanted my x n/p to die or I wanted to hurt him (im 9 mos n/c) Sometimes I still fight that “wave of anger” as you described. I have post- it notes as we speak in my kitchen, my bathroom, and in my calendar with scriptures/affirmations to live by. One that makes me take pause when I read it, and sometimes bow my head in shame is- Those that claim to walk in the Light, and Hates his brother are still in the Darkness.
Another, from Proverbs 24- If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small. Rejoice not when yr enemy falls, lest God turn wrath toward you.
One more and I will shut up- lol- Sow circumstances as seed- God gave Job twice as much when he Prayed for enemies. Not one person stood with Paul , In his imprisonment and beatings yet he described as “my light affliction”
(TIlly- Im not there yet either)
I am covering you in prayer for Gods protection over your heart and your thoughts . xoxo
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 12:33pm
Tilly says:
Dear Oxdrover and Sabrina,
Thankyou so much for your prayers which mean a lot to me.
I read Victor Frankles book after the P solicitor and I shared it with the P dentist who memorised it and used it to rope me in. He has a photographic memory. So I am now very triggered by the book as we discussed it for months (when we first met). He would quote it ad nauseum. But of course I know what you are saying.
One of the reasons i am so mad is that i know that ANY CONTACT (even second hand) at this point in time will let him know he is winning. He will use it to stir the pot and involve the police or worse. That is why my mind keeps going back to killing him. ( I wouldn’t kill him today..but I could of yestetrday, today I am only capable of grievous bodily harm.. serious).
The only thing that stops me is giving myself up. I tell everyone I know, I don’t care what they think. So that if he is hurt everyone will know its me. I reckon if I were fair dinkum, I wouldn’t be able to tell anyone because I would want to get away with it. I don’t want to go to the nick for the P dentist!
The amount of healing to be able to express this homicidal rage is enormous. I am glad Donna deleted my offer to people to join me in getting rid of their P’s once and for all, because it could scare off someone who needs help. However, if it were not for you taking me seriously and giving me real advice and telling me you felt the same once (and got through it too), then I wouldn’t have any recovery at all. I would just be ashamed and homicidal at the same time. And my P mother gave me enough shame for a hundred lifetimes.
I want to thankyou from the bottom of my heart for your kind words on this one. There really is nowhere else to turn. And if I did assault him and go to prison it would be all over for me. What a waste.
I want to get strong like you two so I can help others get through it too. Nothing is harder than this. Not alcoholism or addiction or death. At least when someone dies you can get some form of closure and forgiveness. But the repeated ruin in the wake of the psychopath’s path is way beyond human capabilities. I used to be angry at God because I thought He was making me suffer to bring me closer to Him. I decided to rebel and i did, but deep down, I never stopped believing in God. I would tell god “I’m going to bash him up today God and I don’t care if I go to hell, it will be worth it, so goodbye”.
Then after the P solicitor I lost all faith. It took me five years to get it back and by the end of the P dentist it was all gone again. It was replaced by cynicism.
OxDrover, I liked that your husband wanted to stay angry. Maybe this time that is how I have to be. It rings a bell for me. At least I feel I have some dignity when I am angry!
And Sabrina, thankyou for admitting you get waves of anger still…I am not angry at the solicitor anymore, it is ten years later. But I have just transferred it all on to the P dentist.
While all the time I am refusing to deal with my P daughter ( in my emotions )as i am just not up to it. Still I have no contact with any of them, yet they might as well all be here for the amount of time they take up in my life.
Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou. You are saving my life, the pair of you.! It is 7.00 am and because i have said how I feel I am in with a chance to have a fairly “balanced” day.
Luv Yus! xo
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 4:14pm
witsend says:
Tilly,
When my husband was in recovery (alcoholic) after about 2 1/2 years, he went into a dry drunk. I had never experienced a dry drunk before.
Even without knowing, I knew immediately that what was going on with him was a dry drunk. He was just exactly like he was when he was drinking BUT MINUS the alcohol. All the alcoholic behavior was back, every single bit of it. And he had every excuse in the book to withdraw from his sponser and AA meeting and his friends in the program.
One day (still during the dry drunk) he gave a very WONDERFUL, gut wrenching, speach at a fellow AA members funeral. Brought tears to grown mens eyes. He talked the talk of recovery at this mans funeral. He “moved” people. But he wasn’t walking the walk. That VERY same day of the funeral he drank……I knew it was coming…Just a matter of when.
One WEEK later he put a pistol in his mouth and took his life.
I was devistated. I didn’t see it coming. I could barely function. The first few days I could barely breath.
I didn’t WANT to take the high road. I wanted to take the LOW road. I wanted to numb the pain. For the FIRST time in my life I wanted to drink to get drunk. I wanted to do drugs. All these things I avoided all my life because my own father was alcoholic and I didn’t want to go down that “road”. But now, I didn’t want to “feel” the feelings.
I made the choice to get up out of bed every morning because I had 2 kids to raise. I didn’t drink, I didn’t do drugs, instead I felt the pain.
WITHOUT my kids I know I would have taken the low road. There would have been NO REASON not to. They were my reason to feel the pain.
Your sweet son needs you. He might not be a young child anymore but he needs you. He asked you on Mothers Day were you would go if you could go anywhere….When you asked him where he would go he answered, that he would go where ever YOU were. (mum)
Those words he said are priceless. He loves you.
You need to think of him whenever you are feeling so low. He can be your guiding light. He is your reason….
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 5:56pm
Matt says:
witsend:
I had never experienced a dry drunk either. I now realize that although S, after he got out of prison, was tooting his own horn about how he beat drugs, yada, yada, yada, I should have been paying more attention to other things he said.
I still remember him having a good laugh while he told me how he knew all the right “buzz words” to throw out in his group therapy sessions. And then I began to see his behavior change — the financial irresponsibility, the increasing drinking (substitution), the erratic behavior.
Towards the end I when I was trying to get a handle on our rapidly disintegrating situation I spoke with 2 different drug abuse experts. I described everything I was witnessing, starting with his early days out of prison. When they heard he wasn’t in NA, they said his early days out of prison he was clearly in a dry drunk and within a couple of months of getting out he was already back using.
I’ve thought a lot about his behavior. And now I can practically pinpoint the moment he went from dry drunk (addict) to active user. And I also realize I saw it coming. And I also realize that I never trusted him almost from the moment I met him.
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 9:42pm
kindheart48 says:
Witsend, wow what a wakeup call for me. I’ve been sober for over 5 years and have wondered about the dry drunk thing. I know the compulsion to drink left me early on as i was praying like crazy but the compulsion to have contact with the s has been there , secondary addiction so the doc. in the trauma program has told me and he also said secondary addicitons become stronger and that has def been my experience. I was doing so well with the no contact and today the s drove by and the truck etc. triggered me and i called and i know i’m just fooling myself. The black and white thinking, he’s all bad or all good. People pleasing , wanting to be freinds knowing this is all just self deluding. I can’t change that i made contact but im trying so hard not to keep it alive if you can u nderstand what im saying. I feel for you with the loss of your husband as i lost my mother to alcoholism young(age 50 drank herself to death) and she was a wonderful mother, with a horrible disease. I remember the funeral director giving me a phamplet on suicide and i couldn’t even admit that it was a slow suicide, to this day i think she was in so much denial thinking it was the water making her sick. I was so guuilt ridden when she died , i drank to deal with it and repeated history only i was fortunate enough to want to sober up 5 years ago or i know i would not be here today. The disease of alcoholism is a thinking disease and if anyone thinks otherwise they are very mistaken. We have a thinking problem which leads us to drinking etc. and other addicitions. I like you have put a positive twist on my moms death, i paid the ultimate price for my seat in AA, i saw first hand how powerful the disease is. Right now it is telling me i can have contact with the s , care about him as a friend and it’s taking all i have not to let myself continue in that direction , doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, def of insanity. Letting go of this obsession has been the hardest thing i’ve ever gone through, surpassing deaths etc. I will pray that God help me let it go because i know it is as deadly as the alcohol. lov e kindheart
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 9:54pm
learnthelesson says:
Hi Kindheart..
I understand what you are saying…its a process…god will answer your prayers and you will do the work it takes to let go…when you have had enough…you will get there. Glad you have been doing well with the NC.. we all have setbacks and eventually end up back on track..keep us posted….Good to “see” you…
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Monday, 18 May 2009 @ 10:42pm
Tilly says:
Witsend:
I am so sad for your loss. You are incredibly strong to go through all of that and come out the other side sane. Sorry, I have not read your story previously.
Was your husband a psychopath ? or an alcoholic ? or both?
I have had long relationships with all three types. IMHO…..(Oxy taught me those initials!)…
(I can only speak of my experience as an Australian…how it is here. I hope it is a million times better over there !).
In my experience the ordinary Psychopath is by far the worst.
Alcoholism and drug addiction are very predictable. If a person is an alcoholic only, then they are nothing like a psychopath, even on a dry drunk. They have the ability to empathize in the extreme. And whilst they are selfish and self centered and childish they are not control freaks who insidiously go out purposely to destroy anyone they feel jealous of or who happens to be in their way or who is a target for.. whatever reason. The active alcoholics and addicts primary purpose is to get to the “feel good” part of a drunk/drug. Which is virtually impossible, given their compulsion. They pick up, become violent or pathetic and then fall down . A dry drunk on the other hand is short tempered, restless, irritable, discontent and self centered in the extreme, but they are very aware of whats right and wrong, of their feelings and other’s feelings, of whats going on around them and they have a moral consiousness and an insight to a Higher Power.
When a recovering alcoholic or drug addict sees that they can’t stay sober or “clean” they may suicide rather than live in the hell of active addiction or the life of a practising alcoholic. But it is MORE likely here in Aus. that they are experiencing a mental breakdown that is due to more than just their active addiction/alcoholism. Usually they go over the edge because of a combination of life stressors. e.g. Loss of job, marriage, death of friend, loss of health, freedom, status, money, identity, power etc . One of these, coupled with their knowledge of what lies ahead in their struggle with their drug of choice is just too much and so they take the “easy” way out. It is also a very selfish way out, (poor me), but in the mental state they are in, it cannot be viewed as selfish. As they are temporarily INSANE at the time.
Psychopaths, that do not have an addiction, generally, do not commit suicide.
An alcoholic psychopath is not as dangerous as an addict psycopath. And neither of them are as dangerous as a psychopath with no active addiction whatsoever.
Alcoholics go into blackout and are very sick the next day and their drug is legal.
Addicts generally, do not go into blackout half as much, can use other drugs to counteract the last one (drugs that can give them extra power in physical strength) AND their drug is illegal.
Ordinary psychopaths are in total control and are NOT at the MERCY of their drug of choice.
N.B. IN Australia, the rooms of AA and NA are full of ordinary psychopaths pretending to be alcoholics and addicts. It is common knowledge and a joke. So many people pretending to be alcoholic to use women or men or get money or control,is a sorrowful sight.
They are there, not only for narcissitic supply, (drunkalogs or stories bragging of their “exciting” life on drugs), but also to prey on the vulnerable, needy, sick (mentally and physically), weaker species. AA and NA are the perfect haven for psychopaths who have no addiction. It is here they can have their pick of the “deer with a limp”.
Often the person in the chair, or the secretary,waving their arms in control, picking people, and even the most “humble – righteous” person in these rooms is just the best actor out of a bunch of hams. Often the treasurer is a psychopath stealing money from AA and they refuse to give up their “service work”or hand over their role in AA.
It doesn’t take long to see that these rooms are a trap for every shady character/con man you can find.
Occasionally you will find a handful of people who are really addicts or alcoholics practicing the 12 steps to the best of their ability. But only occasionally.
Like I said earlier, there are 60 meetings of AA and NA, each, on the GOLD COAST alone. In these rooms, its easy to stay out of the sun, because their are so many shady characters.
i.e. SO MANY PSYCHOPATHS preying on the weak.
I strongly advise to stay well away from these places unless you know what I am talking about and are able to survive
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Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 6:25am
witsend says:
Matt,
A dry drunk is a very good indicator that the addict is going to be actively using again.
What was so hard to understand (for me) was that everything reverted back to the person being exactly as they were when they used alcohol/drugs BEFORE the usage actually began. It was so strange to see the old behavior back before the actual drug of choice enterd the body. The relapse was already in motion.
The one thing I did learn by being surrounded by recovering addicts in the program is that “humility” is the key. When you hear someone in recovery telling you that they will NEVER drink or use drugs again….That is a pretty complacent place for an addict. Not a good place to be. An addict is powerless over their addictions. And will remain so regardless of “years” spent in sobriety. Admitting being powerless is the healthy attitude for an addict.
So when you say what you witnessed with your x all the signs were there. It was just a matter of “when” it was going to happen.
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Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 8:22am
Rosa says:
Matt:
I have never had a dry drunk, but I did have the dry heaves.:)
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Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 8:34am
witsend says:
Tilly,
I can not say that my husband was S/P. He was a highly dis- functiontional alcoholic. My father had been a functional alcoholic.
My husband was adopted (at 2 yrs old) and I wish that I knew more about his family of origin because of what I am going through with my son. I can’t determine the genetic factor if my son is predisposed genetically for personality disorder.
My husbands adopted mother though very well could be an N. If she isn’t she is what I would say is a “close call”.
She couldn’t have children and adopted late in life. She is one of those people that should have NEVER had children. She was very abusive, controlling and manipulative. She inflicted cruelty when she was raising her child on a daily basis. Consequently my husband did start drinking at a very early age. His biological parents were pretty messed up but it is uncertain (to me anyways) if he might have been better off being raised by them.
I agree with you that AA can be a dumping grounds for shady characters/con men & also court “appointed” people that the judge doesn’t know where else to “place” into the system. Living in a very small town, the local AA group, has its share.
I have to say though that our local AA meetings has alot of scheduled “open” meetings that invites family & friends of addicts to come to the meetings as well. I learned ALOT at these open meetings. And my husband has been dead for 12 years so even though I haven’t gone for a long time, much of what I learned there has “stuck”. AA basic principles can be useful for many issues other than addictions.
Alot of what I learned is still helping me to this day in dealing with my son and what is going on here even though what we are dealing with is a completely different issue.
You are also right on about addictive behavior being pretty predictable. Once you “get it”, the addict is very predictable. And so even though an addict can be violent or toxic in your own life there isn’t ALWAYS the element of surprise. Once you understand what drives them.
However I do believe that some people become very dangerous when you add alcohol. Especially as the addiction/disease progresses. And I would say that if you have a P/S that is also an alcoholic/addict that danger level would be even higher.
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Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 9:17am
Tilly says:
Witsend:
A lot of people in prison say that ” they cannot remember killing/raping the person because they were in a blackout”. It is a common defense here in Oz. Especially among sports stars who rape women.
It is easy to pick a REAL alcoholic or addict if you are one. i.e. whether they are in recovery or practising/active or not.
It is extremely difficult to pick a psychopath. Especially, if they have been in the rooms of aa or NA long enough. They are professional at using people, talking the talk and saying all the right things and appearing humble, spiritual, charming, gentle and witty.
My ex p dentist knew he was an alcoholic but had no desire to stop drinking. Why would he?? He had enablers everywhere and his professional fraudulance and mask was/is brilliant. I have never seen anything like it! He was not in denial, but rather he didn’t see being an alcoholic as a problem. He always got his way because he lied and was a step ahead.
However the alcoholic psychopath IS vulnerable when he is in a blackout because he is not conscious of what he is doing. He is also vulnerable when he is hung over/sick because he can’t look after himself and is confined to bed.
The ordinary psychopath is never vulnerable. They are by far the most dangerous.
Of course you can’t generalise about this mental illness. Most alcoholics go through periods of being violent when they are drunk. Luckily they are not usually physically strong. But it is very ifferent with a drug addict. Violence usually can and does happen and their strength can be terrifying.
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Wednesday, 20 May 2009 @ 2:12am
Tilly says:
P.S. From what I have seen of alanon it is brilliant and teaches you to weed out the real from the fantasy.
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Wednesday, 20 May 2009 @ 2:13am
Tilly says:
Matt:
Bottom line is an alcoholic or addict can recover.
A psychopath can’t.
It wouldn’t matter if your Psychopath was an addict/alcoholic or not. He is psychopath which is a million times worse than a “dry drunk”. A dry drunk has feelings. A dry drunk knows right from wrong. A dry drunk has a conscience. A dry drunk usually has an insight into spirituality. They may choose to ignore all of these things, but all the same they have them.
A pschyopath has none of these things. You were with a psychopathic addict…i.e. a million times worse than any plain ol’ alcoholic or addict.
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Wednesday, 20 May 2009 @ 2:54am
Victor says:
Tilly
I disagree, A Sociopath does!, know Right from wrong , they just don’t Care! The reason they don’t Care is because they don’t Feel for anyone except themselves and even that is limited! Proof of this is in how many Sociopaths skate under immediate detection . The MADD-OFFS and so many others Portray “Normal” human beings! While their Thinking is Parasitic! People are their Host, to suck the Life out of as long as they are willing !Peace
Mine had all those Qualities! Drunk, Addict, Violent! He had a choice ,He just could not see the Forest for the Trees! Peace
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Wednesday, 20 May 2009 @ 5:16am
Tilly says:
Victor:
Sorry, yes they do know right from wrong. I forgot.
And yes mine was a psychopathic drunk, addict too.
A drunk and an addict can recover if they have the desire.
A psychopath can’t.
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Wednesday, 20 May 2009 @ 5:24am
Victor says:
In my reaserch , I have found Hope for the Mothers of at risk Children! But it is still in it’s infancy! For a mother to have the Time to spend with teaching the at risk child . It would need to be an Ideal situation. More a Family affair with every member helping out. We all know how difficult that is today! For a single mother trying to make a living and suport a family?
The reaserch says, that you have to teach the child to respect that others have feelings even if the child does not feel these , they can be taught what they are and to set the boundries for their own behavior in respect of others!
A Big DEAL was that punishment was worthless! That Reward for the desired behavior was the ONLY way to train/teach the Child!
And I thought having a puppy was difficult! Peace
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Wednesday, 20 May 2009 @ 7:17am
pollyannanomore says:
Wow = this is awesome writing and testament to your extensive training and brilliant mind. So love contains many requisite parts. I had read the work of Nell Noddings who describes love as being like a DNA helix model with reciprocal actions between each partner strengthening the love FELT by each and subsequently the love GIVEN OUT by each. She describes love as being an engrossment with another person so that you want to empty out your own soul to contain that of the other and have them contain your own.
This love is formed of actions – gifts exchanged – perhaps doing a kind thing like making coffee or caring for the other when sick. The sociopath is solely engrossed with themselves. There is no opening of the soul because there is no true soul to be engrossed with so we are hooked in at first by being engrossed with a mirage that gives nothing back but our own reflections of what we want to see. It’s a terribly one sided affair. Only the healthy partner gives till they are empty – the sociopath just takes everything as his right. It’s still so hard to wrap my head around it all – that all that heartfeltness from me meant nothing at all to him – it was like ordering a takeaway while he stomped on my heart and ripped my soul to shreds because he was jealous of it. Or maybe he was just indifferent – indifference is perhaps worse.
Thanks – this is really food for thought – I am going to check out the link now
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 5:14am