SSSP meeting highlights: The psychopath’s inability to love
PDF This week “Sarah” commenting on Lovefraud wrote:
What is the biggest difference between Narcissists/Psychopaths/Sociopaths and us? The ability to love!
What is one of the over-riding characteristics of the N/P/S? They are they are extremely jealous & envious and must WIN! We have something they will never have . . i.e., the ability to love.
In the Mask of Sanity, the first book to describe psychopathy, Hervey Cleckley wrote:
The psychopath seldom shows anything that, if the chief facts were known, would pass even in the eyes of lay observers as object love… In a sense, it is absurd to maintain that the psychopath’s incapacity for object love is absolute, that is, to say he is (in)capable of affection for another … He is plainly capable of casual fondness, of likes and dislikes, and of reactions that, one might say, cause others to matter to him. These affective reactions are, however, always strictly limited in degree. In durability they also vary greatly from what is normal in mankind. The term absolute is, I believe, appropriate if we apply it to any affective attitude strong and meaningful enough to be called love, that is, anything that prevails in sufficient degree and over sufficient periods to exert a major influence on behavior.
In my opinion, perhaps the only flaw in our current measures of “psychopathy” is their failure to assess “ability to love.” Fortunately, that may soon change thanks to Donald Lynam, Ph.D. , Professor of Clinical Psychology at Perdue University. In his presentation, Interpersonal Antagonism as the Core Feature of Psychopathy Dr. Lynam presented evidence that inability to love is at the core of psychopathy.
I have long admired Dr. Lynam’s work, and his rather renegade status in the world of psychopathy research. During his presentation, I sat next to an accomplished psychopathy researcher, who has become a friend. After Dr. Lynam finished, I offered a public thanks to him for his presentation and brought up the issue that no one else is trying to measure and assess “ability to love” in psychopaths. The researcher sitting next to me said “You can have him as your Guru if you like, but there are problems with his work.” I did not ask my friend to elaborate because I already knew why he said that.
Dr. Lynam has challenged the status quo of psychopathy research because he says, “Factor analysis of the PCL-R (the most widely used rating scale) are unlikely to reveal the core personality components of psychopathy.” His making that statement at the SSSP meetings is kind of like a minister at a meeting of Southern Baptists saying that The Bible doesn’t necessarily have all the answers for modern humans.
Dr. Lynam says (and I very much agree) that if you analyze the PCL-R to understand “the psychopath” you run into circular arguments. How do we know this person is a psychopath? Because he/she has a high PCL-R score. How do we know the PCL-R symptoms reflect the psychopathy personality type? Because they belong to “psychopaths” as identified by the PCL-R. The way to get around these circular arguments is to separate diagnostic measures from personality measures. This is what Dr. Lynam has done.
The most accepted model of general personality posits five basic traits called the Big Five (OCEAN: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, Neuroticism). Dr. Lynam has studied these traits in relation to psychopathy and he has found that “low agreeableness” explains a majority of individual differences in PCL-R scores. That means that the core of psychopathy is explained by low agreeableness.
What exactly is low agreeableness? Agreeableness has 6 parts to it: trust, straightforwardness, altruism, compliance, modesty and tender mindedness. The items on this list reflect a person’s tendency toward intimacy, needs balancing (ones own needs vs. other’s needs) and caretaking of others; core components of ability to love. Dr. Lynam also mentioned briefly that these are more than personality traits and instead seem to reflect “an ability.” I wrote about love as a developmentally acquired “ability” in Just Like His Father? nearly three years ago, and am glad to see this given more attention by scientists.
After I commented praising Dr. Lynam’s work, another researcher stood up and said, “There’s just something about this that bothers me… my gut tells me it is off… If psychopaths lack agreeableness, why do other people find them attractive?”
I talked with that researcher in private afterwards. Consider Dr. Cleckley’s statement about love and psychopathy. Since psychopaths appear to have fondness and affection, their inability to love is often hidden behind their “Mask of Sanity.” It is only when you really get to know them and you put yourself in a position of depending on them that you discover the importance of their inability to love. This is where victims have wisdom and understanding that many psychopathy researchers will never attain.
For more on Dr. Lynam’s work see: Are they just evil people?
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Dear Susan,
I am glad that you are here at LF and that you felt comfortable enough to share your remarkable insights with us. YOU ARE SOOOOOOO RIGHT!!!! It is the way we were “programmed” and at first we didn’t see this as “wrong” but yet we never completely accepted it either, but NOW WE DO SEE—unlike the people as Jesus said “who have eyes and see not, who have ears and hear not” —and we finally, FINALLY, FINALLY “get it.” We can ONLY change ourselves.
Accepting that was difficult for me, DOING that was even MORE DIFFICULT but I am starting to “get the hang” of it somewhat and each new success leads to more successes.
Again, Welcome, Susan, and glad you are here! (((hugs))))
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JaneSmith says:
Good afternoon, peeps…
You know, I read as many articles and comments as I can here on LF when I have time to really focus on what is being said in an effort to assimilate, comprehend and empathize with you all.
Actually, dagnabit, I make the time! This website not only offers priceless, valuable knowledge but it also has allowed me the privilege, the honor to develop caring connections with wonderful people I might not ever meet in real time.
None of you are only words on a page, but living, breathing, hurting, loving, exceptional people who continuously deeply touch my heart, my mind, my spirit in ways that literally blow me away.
You all have become meaningful additions to my own spiritual journey and I am eternally grateful to you even though you probably didn’t have a clue to this reality.
And really….how can I not foster geniune affection and sincerest concern for kindred spirits?
Lovely, wonderful people who share similar characters and personalities with me, yet many times supercede my own limited view on what it means to be a true human being by honestly revealing, through your life-long trials and tribulations, how exemplary you are.
You all humble me, and that’s a good thing. Keeps me from getting a huge, fat head thinking I’m all this and all that!…..haha.
I remember what Kathleen wrote in one of her essays regarding the misery and devastation caused, during and after involvements with psychos, where she brilliantly proclaimed that if we all can heal and recover from the total disaster, the fallout from loving and caring for psychos and being hourly, daily abused by them, that we will become incredibly resilient to all future obstacles that DARE to cause us harm.
That we begin to easily roll with the punches that life sets before us. After the ridiculous mess of psychos, anything that happens to us doesn’t seem so formidable any longer.
We have become stronger, more resourceful, more capable and competent than we ever gave ourselves credit for before.
So true! Thank you so very much, Miss Kathleen Hawk!!
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Sarah999 says:
To a NORMAL person . . . To love someone . . . is to care about THEIR “well being”.
A P/N/S only cares about someone else’s well being, when they are getting something from them (i.e., exploiting them). When the victim is no longer of any use to the P/N/S . . . the N/P/S no longer cares about them.
The P/N/S does get a TEMPORARY “feeling of love” when they are successfully exploiting their victim.
I believe the “OPPOSITE of LOVE is EXPLOITATION”. Because when you are exploiting someone . . . you DON’T care about the victims “well-being”.
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Sarah999 says:
Further . . the N/P/S must always WIN. If they can exploit you, to get their “feeling of winning” . . . you are useful to them. If they can put you down . . they win! If they can lie to you & gas-light you . . they win! If they can rage at you . .they win! If they can hit you . .they win! If they can charm you . .they win! I believe the P/N/S creates situations with the victim, where they WIN . . and thus they feel good. They EXPLOIT their victim, inorder to WIN.
They care “not a twit” about the victim’s well being. EXPLOITATION IS THE OPPOSITE OF LOVE.
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shabbychic2 says:
Sarah999: Yes, you are right, amazing how something so complicated can be worded so simply and yet be so profound.
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Tilly says:
Yes you are right, they are jealous and envious in the extreme and must win and control to feel powerful. I doubt if they can feel fondness or any other emotion except hate and greed and ambition.
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housie says:
Most days “he” is not in the forefront of my mind. I so agree with OxDrover in that I have really come to believe that until I discover a relationship with ME, I will not be living in the life that God has planned for me. For so many years I was the victim. I didn’t know how to be any other way. I watched my mother be a victim, and to handle her pain, she had an affair with a married man for 30 years – picking someone, once again, who was not available for her. What I have come to see, (and for SOME of us, that takes a long time), is that I have unresolved issues from my childhood. I ran into the arms of many men between ages 19-24, I was promiscuous and thought that sex was love. At 19, I met this “wonderful” man on the beach at Waikiki – he was gorgeous and he paid attention to me. At the time, my self-esteem was in the barrel, and I thought I was fat, helpless and worthless. As I look back, I realize I was not fat; I had long blonde hair and a beautiful body. I was compassionate, nurturing and was suffering from learned helplessness. I had a 19 year old body and a 4 year old mind. I was needy, desperate for love and a victim waiting for its prey – looking for someone to complete me. I hadn’t a clue who “me” was. The s circled me on the beach like a vulture capturing his prey. We fed off of one another. There was a payoff for both of us. I hadn’t a clue what real love was. I only knew what “longing and yearning” felt like, and I needed a fix. That was in 1967. In this year of 2009 in the month of April, I “finally” got it – that I had been in the clutches of an evil predator who had falons dipped in time released poisonous venom that enveloped my soul and choked it mercilessly for 4 decades. The addiction was beyond description as I fought for the little fragment of my soul that was left to have life breathed into it. All I could do was lay on the floor and pray with what little strength I had left to a God I thought had forsaken me. I had truely hit bottom, and was as hopeless as the dying can be – 100% hopeless apart from Divine Help. What happened? Suddenly out of the abyss came a gutteral scream and with it New Life. I had a conversion experience, and the bondage was removed INSTANTLY. God commenced to do for me what I COULD NOT do for myself. I saw through new eyes, and I heard through new ears. I was FREE! God had also placed me back in my hometown 2 months before this happened after a 38 year absence – the town I lived in when I met the s. I have gone back to my Catholic faith, the faith I left to join the s in the cult with his N mother for 16 years. So, you see, I have come full circle in this saga. Am I the same person? No…much wiser, and filled with a knowledge that my MSW doesn’t even touch. I learned this new truth in the school of adversity and thralldom. What does the future have in store for this 62 year old seasoned sage? Only the Lover of My Soul knows. He was there all along, living w/in me, but I was looking for love in all of the wrong places. How RELIEVED and GREATFUL I am to come HOME to myself and know it for the first time.
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henry says:
Beautiful and inspiring…………
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sabrina says:
Housie, I second Henry’s comment.Your a wise and humble woman. The words you used to describe the Lord- lover of my soul -is the most comforting thing we as S survivors can hear. All we have ever wanted and needed is someone who loves our SOUL- Our being, unconditionally.
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sabrina says:
Housie- Your post made me think of something- A S can NEver understand how much GOd loves them, b/c they have no ability to. Just as they cant love others in turn, the all encompassing peace that we have in knowing there IS a Lover of our Soul- the S has no comprehension. How scary and miserable to be like them- out in the world completely ALONE with only evil leading the darkness.
Thankyou Housie, and everybody else here- You light up the Darkness!
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IT says:
The Truth is we don’t need someone to make us compleet! We don’t need another person to be Happy! We don”t need someone else to be loved!
Our God! Our Higher Power is more than enough! It has been there all through each and every trial and is still there!
My God doesn’t force me to see the error of my choices , when I have acted or reacted because of my emotions and feelings. God lets me learn from my mistakes!
I make ALOT!
But God still walks with me and talks with me and slowly and painfully I am learning God is all I really Need! Everything else is secondary. When I Trust God First! everything flows the way it is supose to! When I think I know better , It’s like swimming upstream! Peace
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learnthelesson says:
Dear IT,
Awesome, inspiring post…and I agree with much of what you said…except how does God let you learn from your mistakes if not allowing you to see the error of your choices? I feel maybe there are no such things as mistakes, but rather they are lessons to be learned..but in order to do that I have to choose to see the error of my ways/choices at times. I only mention this because I feel its important to be able to balance the awareness that there is nothing forced or guiltridden about seeing the error of my choices when I have not reacted to the best of my self-respect, self-trust and self-worth…. I hope this makes sense and adds to the beauty and wisdom of your words…as we all swim upstream together! God Bless You
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shabbychic2 says:
I am finally getting it that I don’t need someone else to make me complete… but I am very lonely, what do I do with that? I almost can’t bear it, which is probably why I’ve been attracted to ANYONE who seemed to want to be with me.
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OxDrover says:
Housie, and the rest of you wonderful, inspiring people! You are all so right on! Sometimes we must be FLAT OF OUR BACKS to LOOK UP! I know that in my case for sure.
There are some situations that we cannot handle ourselves, and if we don’t depend on our faith, we can’t even survive.
The spiritual aspect of healing I think is one of the most important aspects that we can recognize. Whatever your faith is, I think we have to have a faith in something bigger and outside of ourselves in order to cope with the traumas too big to comprehend. Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s search for meaning” which he wrote after he spent years in a Nazi prison camp was an eye opener for me. His search for meaning from the trauma he suffered and the total loss of everything he held dear, and yet, finding meaning in that trauma through his faith inspired me as nothing else ever has. I suggest that anyone who has suffered losses read this book. (((hugs))) and prayers for you all.
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learnthelesson says:
Shabbychic,
Isnt it empowering to finally get that!
Something I wanted to accomplish was really rid myself of that lonely feeling…so that when and if I meet someone I can really know its out of true mutual companionship and shared interests…not complete lonliness or desperation or need to fill a void… so what I did was….
get to know myself, spend time with myself, literally what do you want to do today…and DO IT…
I joined meetup.com for my favorite hobby… they have everything and anything you can think of that interests you…again I went with zero expecation to meet someone but to totally get caught up in the hobby and what I enjoy and what makes me feel good and feel productive. And I caution doing such with strangers from this group – i was social and friendly but never entertained any offers.. just not a smart idea.
I volunteer at school…(for me I have to be there anyway, but there are volunteer positions everywhere) it does so much for your inner spirit and can meet some really good decent souls depending where you go. The Ronald McDonald House for children always needs volunteers…as do so many other organizations and charities…it seems like ehh, maybe/maybe not…but once you are in the throws of it you dont have time to be lonely!
I visit LF…friends…get in car and go for ride or I like to go to thrift shops/antiques stores/yard sales….
The gym, parks, etc.
I think what I did was really worked hard at being ok with being with just myself. Before I would never go to the river and sit on a blanket with a book and chill out BY MYSELF…dont know why…just wasnt comfortable with it…but for now..I really enjoy the company of myself…i think it was really important for me to take this step in my journey…
I get lonely still at times, but much much less…and I have gone out on a few dinner dates, movie dates but with clarity and understanding I am interested in good friends and just getting to know myself for the first time in my life. This helps me to know what I want and helped to end that “attraction to anyone” void I was trying to fill…
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Tilly says:
I have overcome the loneliness years ago and the neediness and I prayed for God to send me “my true heart partner for life in Your Will God and Your time, not mine” after the devastation of the solicitor. Then the “dentist psychopath exb ” turned up!
A new wave of revenge has returned. Why cant we get them back or get out personnal belongings and dog back…I seem to have forgotten, I hate the way this feeling of revenge consumes me.!It makes all the work I’ve done for years just seem like nothing. I’m slidin down the black hole again.
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OxDrover says:
(((Tilly)))))
Sweetie, the feelings of anger and revenge are “normal” feelings and part of teh grief process, they will come and go, and go and come, so don’t let it spook you.
What I did that helped me some, was I would PRAY ALOUD for these people. Now, Tilly, I did NOT MEAN A WORD OF TEH PRAYER, and I know God knew I didn’t mean it, but I did it anyway…and you know what, after a while, I actually started to mean it! It actually helped me to forgive them….now forgiveness means to get the bitterness toward them out of my heart, it does not mean that what they did was ok, or that I would ever trust them or want a relationship with them, just that I worked the bittereness otu of my own heart! For MY benefit, not theirs,
The Bible, I think, gives us some good psychological advice, like “forgive those that do you wront”—not for their sake, but for OURS, ditto “pray for those that abuse you”—it helps US.
Bittereness after a while eats at you like a cancer iniside, so it is GOOD to oget this out of our hearts. Like all “bad things” it will seep back in, but we can drive it out permanently over time. then we can live in peace “that passeth understanding” when we don’t harbor hate and bitterenss. So, don’t let it spook you when it comes, just work it out and it will go away for a while, and if it comes again, :”rinse and repeat” and eventually it will go away and not come back.
You are a stronger woman than you may realize my dear! I admire your spunk! (((hugs))))
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housie says:
OxDrover,
Great advice regarding praying for our enemies. In the Big Book of AA which we use for OA, there is a page suggesting we pray for the person we resent even if we don’t mean it. It suggests we do this for two weeks as a guideline, but that if we will pray for that person for their health, happiness and prosperity that in time we will come to mean it. We do this not for them, but for us. It has worked for me. It kind of reminds me of CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy) – changing the way we think to change the outcome. I can’t even imagine what it must be like to exist without the ability to love. As the anger diminishes, I find myself spending more days in acceptance forging a trail to the Promised Land flowing with milk and honey – I just need to practice, practice, and more practice. Today I went to my Mom’s to help her put up her summer Gazebo, and came home and watched a movie. I watched Benjamin Button with my son last night, and journaled and spent some time with that Lover of My Soul. I was not lonely. Also, yesterday I received a letter from husband #2 (not a P, but a recovering alcoholic of 18 years with some definite issues). He is working with a new sponsor (his old one died) – now maybe he can get well – anyway, he is working hard on his own issues, and it felt really good to say to myself, “Self, I don’t feel ready to answer this letter right now. I will shelf it while I work on my own recovery, and I will know when and if I want to respond sometime in the future.” I was married twice, and both times I picked toxic people because “I” was toxic. While I am happy for him that he is working on his own personal issues, I do not feel pressured to respond just yet if at all, but my first priority is self-care!! Wow!!! You ROCK girl!!! And this is a new part of me – not just something I am doing because I have been told it is right. You are all so precious to me as you teach me that you will love me until I can love myself, and even after!!
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shabbychic2 says:
LTL: thanks for the advice, I do belong to some meetup groups but only the ones that are women only, we go to clubs, dinner, movies, Friday night at the horse races, free concerts, etc. I haven’t been doing too much lately because I am trying to conserve my savings account, I don’t have a job. I’ve gone to the mall and wandered around. I want to hike in the foothills here but I am worried about mountain lions! One thing I will not do by myself is go to dinner. I feel like a geek!!
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Kittycat3660 says:
I seem to be falling between moments of anger and sadness and depression. My crazy man got me to pay his way out here from texas, pay his hotel bill all the while swearing he had money coming in. Got him and i a place. God what a mistake. I never could understand what mad him fly into a rage and throw things, throw and break wine glasses. He always blamed me but i never yelled back or started these fights. He drank like a fish, smoked, disrpespected everyone. He needs to go back to france. I am going through a period to learn why i let someone this toxic in. The mood swings, the cold and then warm person, the lies, the hiding my things, all of it so draining. I am trying to be strong but i am filled with not knowing what to do with myself. I cleaned up and painted the walls, got rid of all the icky of him, i feel bad for dumping him on someone else but i thank god he is gone. He made me feel out of control. I am out alot of money, he is off with someone else, and this woman he has convinced that it was me. I feel sorry for her. Do i warn her?? He cannot come back thank god and i dont want to see him ever again. He was a pig. At times he was the most charming man i ever met, so smart, has a phd and was making 168 thousand a year in hong kong, but never is working for long. He promised me so much, going back to france, etc. I dont want to go anywhere with him. I was so anxious to get him out that i lied about my daughter moving in. I started playing him, telling him i hate putting poisen in food but was he hungry?? i started making him be scared of me and im a very peaceful loving person. But i just started doing mind games with him. I took things from him and hid them like he did to me then would act like nothing happened. He started to doubt himself. This is not like me at all but i did get a tickle with messing with him. I just thank god every day i dont have to wake up to that smelly french idiot. I am alone and trying to recover. But i feel so empty inside and depressed. I think about this woman now that is supporting him and wonder if he has changed or ever will?? if not how could she not see that he drinks mornings, smokes like a chimney, has tantrums, throws up alot, etc. Why should i ever care, but i just thank god he is gone. do they ever change?? Will she wake up? She thinks he is the one, god i feel sorry for her
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henry says:
kitty kitty – I am so glad i am rid of the X creep also. And I went through all the depression and second guessing and went through emotions I was not prepared for. I really thot just geting his using ass out of my house would end the whole awful ordeal, so why did I plumet into despair when he did leave? I think it is because I almost let someone destroy me and I could see the physical and emotional damage he caused. And I looked around and i was in a nest of user’s, and breaking my neck to keep them all happy. My spirit was dying, and I was never in such a state of The Twilight Zone. So this has been a life lesson for me, it was me that laid down and let them wipe their feet on me – I can not live like that and respect myself
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Kittycat3660 says:
me to henry. In fact i have now set boundaries with my family. I have a very controlling sister that puts me down every chance and a brother that says i am like a jerry springer show. I am a productive, good person, been working for 7 years with a great company. I have been treated like crap all my life by them too. Now i am taking a stand. I will not take abuse from anyone anymore ever. They cannot hate me more than they already do. I also will never let a man take money from me or use me. I will not let someone ruin my day or mood from now on. I am learning and its hard. I put up with so much from people so that they would like me and love me. And i got nothing but disrespect. I am done with that. If anyone including my family is toxic, then i will avoid them at all costs. My spirit too almost died. I feel like a shell of who i once was. But i am learning about me. I spend alot of time alone and uncomfortable with that, but i have peace of mind, something this sick man could not give me. I was always on edge with him and he was so demanding of me and my time. Such a jerk. I almost got evicted from his outbursts and rages. never again.
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henry says:
kitty – I am at 14 months no contact – I have recovered from most of the trauma and found myself again. I post here and there to relate and offer comfort. Dont beat yourself up too bad, most of my life has been one mistake after another and i am sure there will be more to come. But I did learn from this as horrible at it was/is – you will be ok – I still have my big kind heart and I wont let anyone take that away or abuse it..let’s just be happy for a change – I am trying and you are to – dont be bitter…..dont give them that.
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Kittycat3660 says:
Lady bug killer. I know this may sound strange but something dawned on me tonight. He always told me ladybugs and moths were his good luck charms and he wanted this job in england so bad, so one day he picked up a ladybug from the porch and put it in an upside down baby food jar. Now i told him it will die, he said but its good luck. It died. This sticks in my mind. Knowing that the bug would die he did it for his own satisfaction, for his own pleasure, his own gain. It was exactly what he did with me. I know this sounds silly but i relate it to the cold person inside he was. Killing that lady bug for good luck. It was always about him, his needs, his search for work, his sadness, his doom. I keep remembering that look on his face when he caught it and jarred it. It bothered me. Of course it died. This made me realize so much, and i know it sound trivial but as long as his needs were met, he could move on, even at the risk of everything. Just had to share this. I am of course no ladybug but in the end, he would have killed me emotionally and mentally. I think he felt empowered being mean to my dog and that in itself is sick. When i would tell him to put my dog down he would tell me im crazy, the dog loved him. He was so twisted.
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Tilly says:
Kittycat:
Mine was extremely abusive to my dog too. Then he wouldn’t return my dog to me when he threw me out/or I left (still not sure which it was, I can’t seem to remember all the events right now), anyway then he gave my dog to his daughter (who assaulted me). and then he made up lies and got a restraining order on me so I can’t go near any of his family to get my dog or my things. I fret for my dog who is due for vaccination and I am so angry and hurt.
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Tilly says:
OxDrover,
I know what you are saying is the truth. And I have tried to pray for him but it doesn’t work for me. It just makes me madder. And it also makes me mad at myself for lying. So then i have prayed for the willingness to pray for him. But that didn’t work either. At best I can pray that he reaches some kind of rock bottom as soon as possible. Not just so that other people are spared the abuse but also that he might miraculously have to feel something…anything.
Oxy, I feel like I have made progress then BANG!! when these waves of anger come I often feel like I am going to burst, and it scares me. I feel like I might just go and kill him. I hate that I have to “rinse and repeat” all my life. I am afraid that a wave of revenge will hit me and i will lose control. I get SOOOO angry at him! Last night I dreamt I had a fist fight with his ex wife who is a huge enabler of his. She uses him for money and he uses her to pit people against each other. The nightmare seemed like it went for the whole night. I woke up angry that him and his ex were in my darn dream/head!! How dare they. Its been no contact for nearly six months! What if I lose the plot and go over there and kill him one day! Then my boy will be totally on his own and my whole life will have been a waste.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Dear Tilly,
The “waves” of rage coming and going is NORMAL in a situation like this, but if you work at it, and stay STAY on the road to healing, it will slow down, decrease in intensity and eventually reach “acceptance” It won’t last for the entirety of your life.
My late husband, a great guy, was ripped off in 1976 by some professional con artists who swindled him out of a multimillion dollar business, wrecked it and tied it up in court for years. He never ever got over the anger of these people destroying his business and bankrupting it. But he did not want to get over it, he nursed that anger. fortunately, he did get up and get on with his life, but I icould never get him to see that he even SHOULD let go of the anger and rage. He loved that rage! LOL But I do think his life would have been much better if he had let go of it. He lost almost 7 years to that rage in and out of court and even when he eventually got the “company” (an empty shell by then) back, he had spent so much money and time and effort on “justice” that he could have had another company up and running and instead he was still broke!
I understand how much you feel lthe anger and the rage! I understand how you want to kill him. I actually plotted revenge on one of my Ps, but even though I icame up with what I thought was a “fool proof way” to get him, I REALLY don’t want to be a murderer, even if I “got away with it” I would know, God would know, and in the end, I would have to go turn myself in to the cops….Letting go of that anger, even when you don’t want to, is I understand DIFFICULT, and the way I did it was to FORCE myself to do what was RIGHT in my eyes, which was to pray for them, even though I did NOT mean a single word of it, and Iknow God knew I didn’t….but eventually it helped get the bitterness out of my heart, and that was the thing that helped me to find peace.
Bitterness is not something that makes US feel better, it is like a cancer, I think, and eats at us. It is a normal stage in healing and grief, but not a “pretty” or nice one, even for us. I do understand your rage and even your fear that you will go hurt him. It is ALL SO UNFAIR and you did NOT deserve to be treated that way, none of us did. nI suggest you get Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s search for meaning” and read it. It is a wonderful book that helped me to SEE that there IS meaning in the things we have endured and that “tribulation worketh patience” and that there are some lessons in all of this that if we will accept them, will in the end, make us better, stronger and kinder people. ((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you accepting your anger.
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sabrina says:
Tilly- Is there a way that you could have a pastor or someone else go get your dog and things as your representative since you cant?
If I have the story right- your x S says you can get your belongings- via emails, etc. This may have already been discussed, in that case overlook this comment. I had a PFA on my x N/P but wanted his things out of my house. I signed a legal paper saying his representative- someone we both agreed was allowed to do the pick up.
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sabrina says:
TIlly- I can relate to what you are feeling. You have had a horrific experience in the hands of this mad man.
I also wanted my x n/p to die or I wanted to hurt him (im 9 mos n/c) Sometimes I still fight that “wave of anger” as you described. I have post- it notes as we speak in my kitchen, my bathroom, and in my calendar with scriptures/affirmations to live by. One that makes me take pause when I read it, and sometimes bow my head in shame is- Those that claim to walk in the Light, and Hates his brother are still in the Darkness.
Another, from Proverbs 24- If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small. Rejoice not when yr enemy falls, lest God turn wrath toward you.
One more and I will shut up- lol- Sow circumstances as seed- God gave Job twice as much when he Prayed for enemies. Not one person stood with Paul , In his imprisonment and beatings yet he described as “my light affliction”
(TIlly- Im not there yet either)
I am covering you in prayer for Gods protection over your heart and your thoughts . xoxo
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Tilly says:
Dear Oxdrover and Sabrina,
Thankyou so much for your prayers which mean a lot to me.
I read Victor Frankles book after the P solicitor and I shared it with the P dentist who memorised it and used it to rope me in. He has a photographic memory. So I am now very triggered by the book as we discussed it for months (when we first met). He would quote it ad nauseum. But of course I know what you are saying.
One of the reasons i am so mad is that i know that ANY CONTACT (even second hand) at this point in time will let him know he is winning. He will use it to stir the pot and involve the police or worse. That is why my mind keeps going back to killing him. ( I wouldn’t kill him today..but I could of yestetrday, today I am only capable of grievous bodily harm.. serious).
The only thing that stops me is giving myself up. I tell everyone I know, I don’t care what they think. So that if he is hurt everyone will know its me. I reckon if I were fair dinkum, I wouldn’t be able to tell anyone because I would want to get away with it. I don’t want to go to the nick for the P dentist!
The amount of healing to be able to express this homicidal rage is enormous. I am glad Donna deleted my offer to people to join me in getting rid of their P’s once and for all, because it could scare off someone who needs help. However, if it were not for you taking me seriously and giving me real advice and telling me you felt the same once (and got through it too), then I wouldn’t have any recovery at all. I would just be ashamed and homicidal at the same time. And my P mother gave me enough shame for a hundred lifetimes.
I want to thankyou from the bottom of my heart for your kind words on this one. There really is nowhere else to turn. And if I did assault him and go to prison it would be all over for me. What a waste.
I want to get strong like you two so I can help others get through it too. Nothing is harder than this. Not alcoholism or addiction or death. At least when someone dies you can get some form of closure and forgiveness. But the repeated ruin in the wake of the psychopath’s path is way beyond human capabilities. I used to be angry at God because I thought He was making me suffer to bring me closer to Him. I decided to rebel and i did, but deep down, I never stopped believing in God. I would tell god “I’m going to bash him up today God and I don’t care if I go to hell, it will be worth it, so goodbye”.
Then after the P solicitor I lost all faith. It took me five years to get it back and by the end of the P dentist it was all gone again. It was replaced by cynicism.
OxDrover, I liked that your husband wanted to stay angry. Maybe this time that is how I have to be. It rings a bell for me. At least I feel I have some dignity when I am angry!
And Sabrina, thankyou for admitting you get waves of anger still…I am not angry at the solicitor anymore, it is ten years later. But I have just transferred it all on to the P dentist.
While all the time I am refusing to deal with my P daughter ( in my emotions )as i am just not up to it. Still I have no contact with any of them, yet they might as well all be here for the amount of time they take up in my life.
Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou. You are saving my life, the pair of you.! It is 7.00 am and because i have said how I feel I am in with a chance to have a fairly “balanced” day.
Luv Yus! xo
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witsend says:
Tilly,
When my husband was in recovery (alcoholic) after about 2 1/2 years, he went into a dry drunk. I had never experienced a dry drunk before.
Even without knowing, I knew immediately that what was going on with him was a dry drunk. He was just exactly like he was when he was drinking BUT MINUS the alcohol. All the alcoholic behavior was back, every single bit of it. And he had every excuse in the book to withdraw from his sponser and AA meeting and his friends in the program.
One day (still during the dry drunk) he gave a very WONDERFUL, gut wrenching, speach at a fellow AA members funeral. Brought tears to grown mens eyes. He talked the talk of recovery at this mans funeral. He “moved” people. But he wasn’t walking the walk. That VERY same day of the funeral he drank……I knew it was coming…Just a matter of when.
One WEEK later he put a pistol in his mouth and took his life.
I was devistated. I didn’t see it coming. I could barely function. The first few days I could barely breath.
I didn’t WANT to take the high road. I wanted to take the LOW road. I wanted to numb the pain. For the FIRST time in my life I wanted to drink to get drunk. I wanted to do drugs. All these things I avoided all my life because my own father was alcoholic and I didn’t want to go down that “road”. But now, I didn’t want to “feel” the feelings.
I made the choice to get up out of bed every morning because I had 2 kids to raise. I didn’t drink, I didn’t do drugs, instead I felt the pain.
WITHOUT my kids I know I would have taken the low road. There would have been NO REASON not to. They were my reason to feel the pain.
Your sweet son needs you. He might not be a young child anymore but he needs you. He asked you on Mothers Day were you would go if you could go anywhere….When you asked him where he would go he answered, that he would go where ever YOU were. (mum)
Those words he said are priceless. He loves you.
You need to think of him whenever you are feeling so low. He can be your guiding light. He is your reason….
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Matt says:
witsend:
I had never experienced a dry drunk either. I now realize that although S, after he got out of prison, was tooting his own horn about how he beat drugs, yada, yada, yada, I should have been paying more attention to other things he said.
I still remember him having a good laugh while he told me how he knew all the right “buzz words” to throw out in his group therapy sessions. And then I began to see his behavior change — the financial irresponsibility, the increasing drinking (substitution), the erratic behavior.
Towards the end I when I was trying to get a handle on our rapidly disintegrating situation I spoke with 2 different drug abuse experts. I described everything I was witnessing, starting with his early days out of prison. When they heard he wasn’t in NA, they said his early days out of prison he was clearly in a dry drunk and within a couple of months of getting out he was already back using.
I’ve thought a lot about his behavior. And now I can practically pinpoint the moment he went from dry drunk (addict) to active user. And I also realize I saw it coming. And I also realize that I never trusted him almost from the moment I met him.
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kindheart48 says:
Witsend, wow what a wakeup call for me. I’ve been sober for over 5 years and have wondered about the dry drunk thing. I know the compulsion to drink left me early on as i was praying like crazy but the compulsion to have contact with the s has been there , secondary addiction so the doc. in the trauma program has told me and he also said secondary addicitons become stronger and that has def been my experience. I was doing so well with the no contact and today the s drove by and the truck etc. triggered me and i called and i know i’m just fooling myself. The black and white thinking, he’s all bad or all good. People pleasing , wanting to be freinds knowing this is all just self deluding. I can’t change that i made contact but im trying so hard not to keep it alive if you can u nderstand what im saying. I feel for you with the loss of your husband as i lost my mother to alcoholism young(age 50 drank herself to death) and she was a wonderful mother, with a horrible disease. I remember the funeral director giving me a phamplet on suicide and i couldn’t even admit that it was a slow suicide, to this day i think she was in so much denial thinking it was the water making her sick. I was so guuilt ridden when she died , i drank to deal with it and repeated history only i was fortunate enough to want to sober up 5 years ago or i know i would not be here today. The disease of alcoholism is a thinking disease and if anyone thinks otherwise they are very mistaken. We have a thinking problem which leads us to drinking etc. and other addicitions. I like you have put a positive twist on my moms death, i paid the ultimate price for my seat in AA, i saw first hand how powerful the disease is. Right now it is telling me i can have contact with the s , care about him as a friend and it’s taking all i have not to let myself continue in that direction , doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, def of insanity. Letting go of this obsession has been the hardest thing i’ve ever gone through, surpassing deaths etc. I will pray that God help me let it go because i know it is as deadly as the alcohol. lov e kindheart
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learnthelesson says:
Hi Kindheart..
I understand what you are saying…its a process…god will answer your prayers and you will do the work it takes to let go…when you have had enough…you will get there. Glad you have been doing well with the NC.. we all have setbacks and eventually end up back on track..keep us posted….Good to “see” you…
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Tilly says:
Witsend:
I am so sad for your loss. You are incredibly strong to go through all of that and come out the other side sane. Sorry, I have not read your story previously.
Was your husband a psychopath ? or an alcoholic ? or both?
I have had long relationships with all three types. IMHO…..(Oxy taught me those initials!)…
(I can only speak of my experience as an Australian…how it is here. I hope it is a million times better over there !).
In my experience the ordinary Psychopath is by far the worst.
Alcoholism and drug addiction are very predictable. If a person is an alcoholic only, then they are nothing like a psychopath, even on a dry drunk. They have the ability to empathize in the extreme. And whilst they are selfish and self centered and childish they are not control freaks who insidiously go out purposely to destroy anyone they feel jealous of or who happens to be in their way or who is a target for.. whatever reason. The active alcoholics and addicts primary purpose is to get to the “feel good” part of a drunk/drug. Which is virtually impossible, given their compulsion. They pick up, become violent or pathetic and then fall down . A dry drunk on the other hand is short tempered, restless, irritable, discontent and self centered in the extreme, but they are very aware of whats right and wrong, of their feelings and other’s feelings, of whats going on around them and they have a moral consiousness and an insight to a Higher Power.
When a recovering alcoholic or drug addict sees that they can’t stay sober or “clean” they may suicide rather than live in the hell of active addiction or the life of a practising alcoholic. But it is MORE likely here in Aus. that they are experiencing a mental breakdown that is due to more than just their active addiction/alcoholism. Usually they go over the edge because of a combination of life stressors. e.g. Loss of job, marriage, death of friend, loss of health, freedom, status, money, identity, power etc . One of these, coupled with their knowledge of what lies ahead in their struggle with their drug of choice is just too much and so they take the “easy” way out. It is also a very selfish way out, (poor me), but in the mental state they are in, it cannot be viewed as selfish. As they are temporarily INSANE at the time.
Psychopaths, that do not have an addiction, generally, do not commit suicide.
An alcoholic psychopath is not as dangerous as an addict psycopath. And neither of them are as dangerous as a psychopath with no active addiction whatsoever.
Alcoholics go into blackout and are very sick the next day and their drug is legal.
Addicts generally, do not go into blackout half as much, can use other drugs to counteract the last one (drugs that can give them extra power in physical strength) AND their drug is illegal.
Ordinary psychopaths are in total control and are NOT at the MERCY of their drug of choice.
N.B. IN Australia, the rooms of AA and NA are full of ordinary psychopaths pretending to be alcoholics and addicts. It is common knowledge and a joke. So many people pretending to be alcoholic to use women or men or get money or control,is a sorrowful sight.
They are there, not only for narcissitic supply, (drunkalogs or stories bragging of their “exciting” life on drugs), but also to prey on the vulnerable, needy, sick (mentally and physically), weaker species. AA and NA are the perfect haven for psychopaths who have no addiction. It is here they can have their pick of the “deer with a limp”.
Often the person in the chair, or the secretary,waving their arms in control, picking people, and even the most “humble – righteous” person in these rooms is just the best actor out of a bunch of hams. Often the treasurer is a psychopath stealing money from AA and they refuse to give up their “service work”or hand over their role in AA.
It doesn’t take long to see that these rooms are a trap for every shady character/con man you can find.
Occasionally you will find a handful of people who are really addicts or alcoholics practicing the 12 steps to the best of their ability. But only occasionally.
Like I said earlier, there are 60 meetings of AA and NA, each, on the GOLD COAST alone. In these rooms, its easy to stay out of the sun, because their are so many shady characters.
i.e. SO MANY PSYCHOPATHS preying on the weak.
I strongly advise to stay well away from these places unless you know what I am talking about and are able to survive
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witsend says:
Matt,
A dry drunk is a very good indicator that the addict is going to be actively using again.
What was so hard to understand (for me) was that everything reverted back to the person being exactly as they were when they used alcohol/drugs BEFORE the usage actually began. It was so strange to see the old behavior back before the actual drug of choice enterd the body. The relapse was already in motion.
The one thing I did learn by being surrounded by recovering addicts in the program is that “humility” is the key. When you hear someone in recovery telling you that they will NEVER drink or use drugs again….That is a pretty complacent place for an addict. Not a good place to be. An addict is powerless over their addictions. And will remain so regardless of “years” spent in sobriety. Admitting being powerless is the healthy attitude for an addict.
So when you say what you witnessed with your x all the signs were there. It was just a matter of “when” it was going to happen.
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Rosa says:
Matt:
I have never had a dry drunk, but I did have the dry heaves.:)
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witsend says:
Tilly,
I can not say that my husband was S/P. He was a highly dis- functiontional alcoholic. My father had been a functional alcoholic.
My husband was adopted (at 2 yrs old) and I wish that I knew more about his family of origin because of what I am going through with my son. I can’t determine the genetic factor if my son is predisposed genetically for personality disorder.
My husbands adopted mother though very well could be an N. If she isn’t she is what I would say is a “close call”.
She couldn’t have children and adopted late in life. She is one of those people that should have NEVER had children. She was very abusive, controlling and manipulative. She inflicted cruelty when she was raising her child on a daily basis. Consequently my husband did start drinking at a very early age. His biological parents were pretty messed up but it is uncertain (to me anyways) if he might have been better off being raised by them.
I agree with you that AA can be a dumping grounds for shady characters/con men & also court “appointed” people that the judge doesn’t know where else to “place” into the system. Living in a very small town, the local AA group, has its share.
I have to say though that our local AA meetings has alot of scheduled “open” meetings that invites family & friends of addicts to come to the meetings as well. I learned ALOT at these open meetings. And my husband has been dead for 12 years so even though I haven’t gone for a long time, much of what I learned there has “stuck”. AA basic principles can be useful for many issues other than addictions.
Alot of what I learned is still helping me to this day in dealing with my son and what is going on here even though what we are dealing with is a completely different issue.
You are also right on about addictive behavior being pretty predictable. Once you “get it”, the addict is very predictable. And so even though an addict can be violent or toxic in your own life there isn’t ALWAYS the element of surprise. Once you understand what drives them.
However I do believe that some people become very dangerous when you add alcohol. Especially as the addiction/disease progresses. And I would say that if you have a P/S that is also an alcoholic/addict that danger level would be even higher.
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Tilly says:
Witsend:
A lot of people in prison say that ” they cannot remember killing/raping the person because they were in a blackout”. It is a common defense here in Oz. Especially among sports stars who rape women.
It is easy to pick a REAL alcoholic or addict if you are one. i.e. whether they are in recovery or practising/active or not.
It is extremely difficult to pick a psychopath. Especially, if they have been in the rooms of aa or NA long enough. They are professional at using people, talking the talk and saying all the right things and appearing humble, spiritual, charming, gentle and witty.
My ex p dentist knew he was an alcoholic but had no desire to stop drinking. Why would he?? He had enablers everywhere and his professional fraudulance and mask was/is brilliant. I have never seen anything like it! He was not in denial, but rather he didn’t see being an alcoholic as a problem. He always got his way because he lied and was a step ahead.
However the alcoholic psychopath IS vulnerable when he is in a blackout because he is not conscious of what he is doing. He is also vulnerable when he is hung over/sick because he can’t look after himself and is confined to bed.
The ordinary psychopath is never vulnerable. They are by far the most dangerous.
Of course you can’t generalise about this mental illness. Most alcoholics go through periods of being violent when they are drunk. Luckily they are not usually physically strong. But it is very ifferent with a drug addict. Violence usually can and does happen and their strength can be terrifying.
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Tilly says:
P.S. From what I have seen of alanon it is brilliant and teaches you to weed out the real from the fantasy.
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Tilly says:
Matt:
Bottom line is an alcoholic or addict can recover.
A psychopath can’t.
It wouldn’t matter if your Psychopath was an addict/alcoholic or not. He is psychopath which is a million times worse than a “dry drunk”. A dry drunk has feelings. A dry drunk knows right from wrong. A dry drunk has a conscience. A dry drunk usually has an insight into spirituality. They may choose to ignore all of these things, but all the same they have them.
A pschyopath has none of these things. You were with a psychopathic addict…i.e. a million times worse than any plain ol’ alcoholic or addict.
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Victor says:
Tilly
I disagree, A Sociopath does!, know Right from wrong , they just don’t Care! The reason they don’t Care is because they don’t Feel for anyone except themselves and even that is limited! Proof of this is in how many Sociopaths skate under immediate detection . The MADD-OFFS and so many others Portray “Normal” human beings! While their Thinking is Parasitic! People are their Host, to suck the Life out of as long as they are willing !Peace
Mine had all those Qualities! Drunk, Addict, Violent! He had a choice ,He just could not see the Forest for the Trees! Peace
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Tilly says:
Victor:
Sorry, yes they do know right from wrong. I forgot.
And yes mine was a psychopathic drunk, addict too.
A drunk and an addict can recover if they have the desire.
A psychopath can’t.
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Victor says:
In my reaserch , I have found Hope for the Mothers of at risk Children! But it is still in it’s infancy! For a mother to have the Time to spend with teaching the at risk child . It would need to be an Ideal situation. More a Family affair with every member helping out. We all know how difficult that is today! For a single mother trying to make a living and suport a family?
The reaserch says, that you have to teach the child to respect that others have feelings even if the child does not feel these , they can be taught what they are and to set the boundries for their own behavior in respect of others!
A Big DEAL was that punishment was worthless! That Reward for the desired behavior was the ONLY way to train/teach the Child!
And I thought having a puppy was difficult! Peace
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pollyannanomore says:
Wow = this is awesome writing and testament to your extensive training and brilliant mind. So love contains many requisite parts. I had read the work of Nell Noddings who describes love as being like a DNA helix model with reciprocal actions between each partner strengthening the love FELT by each and subsequently the love GIVEN OUT by each. She describes love as being an engrossment with another person so that you want to empty out your own soul to contain that of the other and have them contain your own.
This love is formed of actions – gifts exchanged – perhaps doing a kind thing like making coffee or caring for the other when sick. The sociopath is solely engrossed with themselves. There is no opening of the soul because there is no true soul to be engrossed with so we are hooked in at first by being engrossed with a mirage that gives nothing back but our own reflections of what we want to see. It’s a terribly one sided affair. Only the healthy partner gives till they are empty – the sociopath just takes everything as his right. It’s still so hard to wrap my head around it all – that all that heartfeltness from me meant nothing at all to him – it was like ordering a takeaway while he stomped on my heart and ripped my soul to shreds because he was jealous of it. Or maybe he was just indifferent – indifference is perhaps worse.
Thanks – this is really food for thought – I am going to check out the link now
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