The pathological self-confidence of the sociopath
PDF Pathologically self-centered individuals, such as sociopaths or narcissists, often project a level of self-confidence that is pathlogically tremendous. This can be a problem for others who, unlike the sociopath, will be prone to empathy and self-reflection, along with which come self-doubt and hence fluctuating, less dependable levels of confidence.
But the pathologically self-centered individual is often seemingly immune to self-doubt and can thus seem implacably, impressively confident. Why?
The answer is suprisingly simple: When your interest in others is principally, if not entirely, about what you can get, or take, from them; when you lack the capacity for, and/or inclination to, genuine, thoughtful self-reflection; and when the meaning, or purpose, of life is fundamentally reduced to the expectation, and pursuit, of continual gratification, you have a prescription not only for pathological self-centeredness, but its frequent concomitant—pathological self-confidence.
Think about it: for such an individual, it is mostly, and sometimes only, about what he wants. And if he knows what he wants, such an individual will feel entitled to it. And his sense of entitlement becomes self-validating—self-validating, that is, of whatever argument, rationalization, or manipulation brings him closer to his demand.
In other words, the pathologically self-centered individual has something very powerful in his favor—conviction. His is the conviction of his entitlement, of his right to have what he wants—whether it’s agreement, an apology, special attention, cooperation, sex, a favor, forgiveness, you name it.
And he wields his sense of conviction powerfully and persuasively—all the moreso if he’s also articulate and glib.
This explains how a sociopath can look you in the eye and blame you for something—even his victimization of you—and yet you struggle to fully disbelieve him. As I just noted, if he is intelligent and glib, he is in an even better position to erode your sense of reality. He can construct positions, however absurd and even confirming of his sociopathic orientation, that nevertheless have just enough superficial plausability to arrest your attention.
Once you’ve been disarmed, even slightly, his impregnably confident assertions, stemming from his pathological self-centeredness, can have a brainwashing influence.
You wonder if you’re not crazy? The “gaslighting effect” is in full throttle. It is disorienting, literally, to have someone present even a ridiculous proposition, demand, or accusation with unwavering confidence and certitude. And the disorienting effect is magnified exponentially when the assertion is simultaneously packaged in superficially intelligent, coherent, “rational”-sounding language. Confidence in one’s sense of reality can wane, and fail, under this combination assault.
This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality.
(My use of “he” in this article was for convenience’s sake, and not to suggest that females are not capable of the behaviors described. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
A 72 hour “hold” is the amount of time BEFORE THEY GET A COURT ORDER that they can legally hold him. It does NOT mean that they will let him out in 72 hours. Usually this is what proceeds the court order. Becuse of the US Constitution they can’t hold anyone in jail or anywhere for any reason any longer than 72 hours without a judge’s order.
So a “hold” like this is that they take him by force if necessary to a psych facility because he is a “danger to himself or others” (and that interpretation must be made by an MD) THEN the judge signs the order on the “opinion” of the physician and then they HOLD HIM TIL HE IS “BETTER”—of course at some time he will get out, but hopefully they will keep him 30-60 days and/or place him in a “theraputic” environment with treatment and medication for long enough to calm him down and get him taking medication he might need etc.
I am not saying he may not come out mad at you, because he may…but at this point, if you cannot control him, the school cannot control him….WHAT OTHER CHOICE DO YOU HAVE? If he is NOT a Psychopath and say has, Bi-polar or depression, maybe the treatment in that period of time will settle him down where you can reason with him, the school can reason with him etc. and that he will feel better enough that he WILL comply with medication.
If he is a psychopath (even though he can’t be LABELED as such until he is 18) NOTHING YOU DO EITHER WAY IS GOING TO HELP. One of the “qualifications” of a Psychopath is that they had problems BEFORE they were 18…which he obviously does, but that does NOT mean he will continue them “forever” BUT it also COULD mean these are the early signs of P-ism.
I agree with your assessment of the last intervention, BUT, there are also counselors that DO make mistakes in letting people walk out, and there are also some legal safeguards to keep counselors from “holding” people against their wills.
The “danger to self or others” is a thing that is an INTERPRETATION….and some people interpret it to mean, THIS SECOND….I’ve had PROFESSIONAL problems in dealing with people IN VARIOUS AGENCIES who unless they WITNESSED the person ACTIVELY THIS SECOND being threatening harm to self or others, would let the person walk even though in 15 minutes the person WAS actively threatening harm to self or others….it is a really fine hair that they split.
The point of it all to me is that you can either do something or nothing….and something gives you a chance, and I feel that doing nothing doesn’t give you a chance or your son a chance. He isn’t cooperating with anyone (you, therapy or school) at this point, so if you do something and it doesn’t work you haven’t “lost” anything, but if you do nothing, I don’t see a chance in hell of continued doing NOTHING WORKING.
So the ball is in your park at this point. So it is sort of a “shoot, Luke, or put down the ball” situation.
Just my opinion, and worth what you “paid” for it—it was free. (((hugs)))))
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witsend says:
Hi Oxy…
Sorry maybe I didn’t clarify that the 48-72 hour stay was at a REGULAR hospital…such as if I just took him to the Emergency Room. I called the emergency room once before when I thought about bringing him. If taken to the ER they would only keep him for 48-72 hours and then he would be released back to ME, UNLESS his doctor had him transfered or a court order etc.
He isn’t willing to go to a treatment center or hospital though, so that is why they told me about the court order at the facility he goes for to see the counscelor. If I wanted him to go for “inpatient” and he refuses to go I GUESS if there is a court order, THEY will pick him up and take him if I can’t get him there??? THAT is how I understood it?
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Matt says:
witsend:
The reason that the initial stay is 48-72 hours is because back in the dark old days, anyone — police, family, whomever, could someone slammed into a psychiatric hospital for years on end — a definite violation of one’s civili liberties.
This rule is designed for your son’s own protection — as perverse as that may seem at the moment — to make sure that the doctors come up with a firm diagnosis and move for an order of involuntary commitment.
The reality of an involuntary commitment is that the police, or ambulance attendants or whomever handles it in your jurisdiction will give your son the option of admitting himself voluntarily.
If he doesn’t, since you have already submitted evidence that he is a risk to himself or others, the autorities will hospitalize him for the 48-72 hour holding period. If your son moves to discharge himself, the doctors have an legal obligation to present evidence to the court why an involuntary commitment is in your son’s best interests.
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alohatraveler says:
Great article!
I see myself in “self questioning, self doubting individual.” This describes me perfectly when I crossed paths with the Bad Man.
Since then, I have become more sure of myself.. very slowly. Circumstances in my life leading up to Bad Man made me ripe for the picking. My career had been failing.. BIG TIME… I didn’t really even have a career then… just a broken heart and an unemployment check. I had been struggling for years when I decided to risk it all and move to Maui for a fresh start. At that moment, I looked courageous and confident but my “confidence” was rooted in nothing.
Thankfully, I have fought my way back from those days and though I stand on shakey knees sometimes, I know I am far better off now than I was back in the Bad Man days.
Aloha
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Matt says:
alohatraveler:
Good to hear from you and good to hear that things are on the up and up.
To quote FDR “Better to die on your feet than survive on your knees.” The knees may be shaky, but at least we’re learning how to stand our ground and protect ourselves.
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witsend says:
I brought my son to a suicide intervention when I THOUGHT he might be suicidal (several weeks ago) and STATED up front to the counscelor what I SAW and WHY I thought this. I stated the EXACT same things to the ER nurse & the suicide hotline 1-800 #. Both the nurse and the suicide hotline person thought exactly as I did. That he needed to be seen ASAP. I set up the intervention & took him out of school that same day.
When I brought him to the counscelor he ASKED HIM if he was going to hurt himself. My son said , no. Then counscelor turned to me to ask me why I brought him. I told him the reasons, my son got angry and walked out of the session.
I felt that the police should have been called right then by the counscelor as I had to run out of the building after my son.
But the counscelor said that he did NOT agree with me that my son was suicidal. Because he had stated that he wasn’t.
I’m sorry but if everyone that was suicidal TOLD someone straight up what their “plans” were, there would be LESS COMPLETED suicides in the world. So without anyone of us being God and being able to see the future all we can do is see signs if there are any being presented. I saw enough signs at the time to be concerned.
If my son has to STATE UPFRONT to these people that he is suicidal that isn’t going to happen. My son will not even admit that he is depressed or that he has ADHD.
When this intervention happened there were some “signs” that were troubling to me AND he had posted on HIS my space that he was depressed and that “no one cared”….
HE DIDN’T TELL ME (or the counscelor) he was depressed or that NO ONE cared, HE TOLD his peers. TO me that was speaking VOLUMES. As like most kids his age if he is presenting a side of himself to his peers it would be the “cool” side NOT this kind of thing….
NOW right at this point I can’t HONESTLY say that he IS suicidal. The meds DID seem to help for the time he took them. And things were not as bad as they were for those few weeks he was on them, because his moods were not as INTENSE as the weeks BEFORE he took them.
All I can say is that he IS STILL depressed. And he is refusing his meds. He has not as yet been physically violent although the verbal abuse is there. And he is still having problems at school. If that is “enough” to get a court order along with the doctors report, then I have a leg to stand on…..If it isn’t?
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Wini says:
Witsend, I haven’t been reading the blog for a while, so I admit I haven’t read your story. If your son is over 18, he is an adult, therefore he was allowed to walk out of the doctor’s office because he didn’t schedule the appointment.
You have one option if your son is over 18. That being someone in your family becomes his legal guardian. It’s a legal process in court. Your son is in the court room as well as any family members that want to be there. The judge reviews the paperwork that you son has notarized, court ordering another as his legal guardian. Everyone is in agreement and it’s a win/win for everyone involved.
Good luck.
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witsend says:
Wini
He is only 16 years old.
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witsend says:
I was actualy told by a helth care professional that his counscelor actually had put himself out on a limb (so to speak) by letting him go…If something DID happen.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
I hear your frustration, dear!!! ((((hugs))))) and yes, that counselor did put himself out on a limb, but that was what I was trying to tell you, sometimes SOME “professionals” think that they have to see the person with a knife in their hand sawing at their wrists before they will “believe” what is going on!
I know when my son was acting out, got arrested at age 17 and we went to court ordered counseling he convinced the counselor that HE WAS AN ABUSED KID….yea, right!
Because I “abused” him, he stole my car out of my yard to drive to a house to rob it and use MY CAR to haul the loot away from the crime, and I was responsible because I abused the poor baby! I CALLED THE COPS, look what a miserable abusive parent I was.
I would have called the cops on your kid, so why is it abuse if I call the cops on MY kid for being a thief?
This whole mess you are in for trying to HELP YOUR SON, is so frustrating!!! I have been on the same end of the stick you are on, and I am frustrated FOR you, because you are doing everything you can and THE SYSTEM is kicking your feet out from under you while you yell “May Day, May Day, my son is drowning” and instead of offering you a rescue party, they are seemingly sending you an anchor to swim with as if you weren’t having enough trouble trying to keep your son afloat!
This is the kind of thing that makes people want to “go postal” on the system! God bless you my dear, and I will keep you and your son in my prayers (((((hugs)))))
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witsend says:
Oxy…..
I know that you have walked in “these” shoes….
I guess what I find to be so frigging frustrating is that this counscelor sees the “scum” court APPOINTED clients ALL DAY long….That really IS MOSTLY where the drug addicts, and people who are ALREADY in trouble with the law go in this COUNTY if court ORDERED.
And when ever I had asked about my sons problems he ALWAYS replies something to the order of…..WELL HE HASN’T (fill in the blank) robbed a bank yet. Or something equally IGNORANT (my opinion).
IS IT NECESSARY to wait for this to happen? In this guys world evidently it is.
Does he need to have the gun in his hand, to be suicidal? (I don’t own a gun, just my frustrated example)
He said that my son wasn’t depressed but the psyciatrist DID say he was depressed…..
I mean this guy has an arrogance about him that is getting me pretty pi**ed at this point.
One day I was so aggrivated with him I got “sarcastic” and asked him if he, himself ever PARENTED a 16 year old before?? (knowing full well his kid was about 8-10 yrs old). I wanted to know if he is going to wait until HIS kid is arrested before he sees a RED FLAG??? DUH….
And YES, I wanted to change my sons counscelor after the suicide intervention, and after “seeing” how this guy “deals” with his patients. However, I felt at the time that if I did request a change, my son would refuse to continue to go. I thought at the time him seeing this guy was better than NOT seeing anyone. And he had at least FINALLY put in the referal AFTER the “gone bad” intervention to get to see the psyciatrist. SO I didn’t want to screw that up.
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kate_592 says:
Alohatraveler
‘I looked courageous and confident but my “confidence” was rooted in nothing.’
How true that is for a lot of us I am sure. Congratulations for rebuilding your life!
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amanwhocares says:
Only yesterday was I in the company of a sociopath, one who is passive aggressive, and one who is an enabler. When they got going I had to leave. I tolerated the racial remarks and the making of a hangman’s noose where they were going to hang me. But when the passive aggressive showed up it was ‘on’.
Isnt it great how they show their love?
And I must continue to ask myself about the level of my handicap, the level of my own neediness, that has me among such “people” and situations in the first place.
And yes everyone in the hood earlier yesterday before he showed up, talks about how the first one, the sociopath, gets all the women. Just like my father… Such charmers. What does that say about so many women?
Lately and occasionally I think about women and men. I think about how we are raising them today and while I grew up. Little girls are squirreled away inside the house, little boys too, away from adults. Then as they get older the boys group up and the girls group up separately. Yet we are told to involve ourselves with children…but how and where? Meanwhile the earth and the seas and the forests, you get the picture continue to be plundered in part because we are disconnected from earthly processes and each other, especially via gender. Perhaps this has something to do with the gullibility of women for sociopaths as an example here. Of course, I have not studied far into this and this is little more than a theory.
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ThePeregrine says:
People have written entire books that did not contain as much truth as your first paragraph, Steve. Thanks also for clarifying that women can be very capable sociopaths, too.
If anyone still does not understand how we get sucked in to the alternate universe of a sociopath, all they need to do is read and re-read that first paragraph and study its implications.
Well done!
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redheeler says:
This article is exactly what I needed to read this morning. I had dinner with a man 2 days ago in this little town we both live in. I did not know him before this. Retired, 40 year veteran of the police force. Every word in your article describes him. Every word. I do not know this man and his familiarity with me was sick He is a monster control freak. It didn’t take much to spot that. He interjected just enough “kind understanding” in an attempt to disarm me. Didn’t work. He said, after I would not budge from my personal convictions, approach to life & lifestyle, “I don’t even know why I bother talking to you. Yes I do- its only because I adore you so much”. And chuckled at what he thought was cute humor. I looked at him and thought OMG-he’s a sociopath! I shivered at the madness before me. Wasn’t afraid of him doing physical harm. I was seeing him in my mind’s eye licking his chops at the mental/emotional destruction and super control he had planned for me. A ferocious mind game, I-intend-to-win-at-all-costs, player. It was a very disturbing encounter. Its been a long time since I’ve had anything like this happen. I will have no contact with this person, not matter what. Thank God for lovefraud. I read all the articles and go back do “refresher” courses regularly. This site has educated me and has been a part of my becoming a strong woman.
My heartfelt thanks to everyone who contributes-
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christie lee says:
The article about the self confidence of the psychopath really hit home for me. “He” used to tell me that I talked in my sleep and appeared to be having erotic encounters with the men in my past, and he was explicit in the details. I told him that I did not believe him, that he must be mistaken about what he had heard. His response was to become defiant and angry, saying why on earth would I make that up, why would I lie? Well, I know now that it was an effort to make me feel small, as if he was the victim. About a week before he left me in a motel in Montana, penniless and ill, I tested his perception of my “dreams” and said the word “run” as I lay awake next to him. Well, sure enough, he told me the next day that I had once again been talking in my sleep, and “who the hell is Ron?” He said that I was moaning with pleasure and He was getting sick and tired of having to deal with me lusting after other men. Before I did this test, I was unsure of what my dreams looked like from the outside in, and I had wondered if I just may be doing this, but my little test put to rest the feelings of inadequacy he was trying to instill in me. I find it utterly fascinating that each and every article I read here at Love Fraud speaks in someway to the nature of my “very own psychopath” As a side note, he told everyone he had cancer as well, everyone but me that is. He needed money for the surgery, and swindled thousands of dollars from people for the treatments. The last time I saw him was February 10, but my fear is that I have not seen the last of this man….Can anyone tell me what the chances are of him returning, or has he moved on to his next victim, never to look back? I am afraid.
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Matt says:
christie lee:
Welcome. You have found the right place for healing from a sociopath.
Robert Hare, the author of “Without Conscience”, and an expert of psychopathy/sociopathy, says that once a sociopath has exhausted a victim as a source of supply, the sociopath moves on to a new victim and doesn’t look back. Thing is, if one of these creatures thinks there’s an opening, he’ll return to an old source of supply (victim) if he thinks there’s anything left to bleed from you.
That said, while I never want to set eyes on S again, I”ve been having this wierd vibe that I”m about to cross paths with him. Could be it’s my survival instinct kicking in and reminding me of how important NC (no contact) is.
As for the cancer ploy, it’s part of the pity play they all run. If people have wised up to him and there’s an angry mob out there looking for him, I suspect he’s moved onto new, safer, hunting grounds.
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christie lee says:
To Matt, Yes, I hear tell that there are people hunting him down and do not want to see him caught by the police, they would rather administer their own form of justice. The bad part about this is that these same people still believe that I know where he is at, and that he and I are working together. I have cooperated fully with the authorities, but explaining this to these people has not swayed them for these ridiculous notions. It is a lose-lose situation and I feel trapped in my own home, another reason that my fear rules my life. Thank you for your input, Matt….I am grateful to you
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kathiwithak says:
I enjoyed reading this article and interpreted the ending paragraph as a compliment!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Kathi and Christie Lee,
Glad you both found your way to LF—welcome—and hang around a while, there is more good information here and more support than any other place I have found! It is a healing community! God bless you both!
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jeanninelibutti says:
My comment is for Steve Becker (or really anyone else that can offer suggestions). Mr. Becker, would you be able to advise how to encourage the NJ Family Court System to REALLY, TRULY look at and evaluate my exhusband. He has never been formally diagnosed as a sociopath but I am 200% positive that he is, in fact, a sociopath. I know it is very difficult to diagnose someone and that (often) the condition goes undiagnosed (all the while destroying the lives of children, family members & friends). I am divorced almost 10 years. My ex is on his 3rd divorce. He has destroyed the lives of 3 wives and 6 children (4 of which are his biologically). Our 2 children are now 14 & 18 & want nothing to do with him any more. The family court judge has interviewed both my children (my daughter twice). Both kids tell stories of his violent tantrums, assaults on his 3rd wife & emotional abuse on everyone during their time w/him, yet the judge still insists that my daughter MUST have visitation w/ him. In Sept 08 my ex succeeded in convincing the judge that he was very ill & couldn’t work but loved & desperately wanted to see his children. My child support was then reduced from $238 per week to $42 per week (for 2 kids). That would be $196 per week that I am now short in my monthly income. I was then ordered to take my daughter for “reunification theraphy” & (due to his financial hardship) I HAVE to PAY FOR IT MYSELF. 2 weeks later I was laid off for the 2nd time in less than 2 years. I am jobless & almost penniless. I have no $$$ for a lawyer. I have NOT taken my daughter for any theraphy sessions because 1) I am broke! & 2) My daughter does not want to see her father at all. She is a well adjusted, happy-go-lucky young teenager (how often do we hear that?). She wants NO FURTHER CONTACT and truly deserves it. I desperately need the money but don’t want to rock the boat. Can you suggest anyone/any qualified doctor who has the ability to totally see thru the manipulative lies that my ex has been soooo successful in convincing the family court judge of. I am at the end of my rope emotionally & financially. I have exhausted my unemployment and my 401K and what little savings I have to keep myself from drowning in bills and keep food on the table…all the while he is taking my childs money to drink and entertain himself. The NJ Family Courts System seems to only honor needs and demands of the criminal and completely ignore the childs wishes and best interest. I thought that his abuse would stop when I divorced him but it has only gotten worse and (at the same time) I am also being abused by the NJ Family Court System. I truly appreciate any/all suggestions you can provide. I am sorry for rambling. Thank you in advance, JeannineLibutti.
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pb says:
WHOA! Good one!
I had planted my Iris’ in a retaining wall under the maple when it had no leaves. Once the tree sprouted its’ foliage, my Iris bulbs were rotting in the shade.
So, I had done some research. I dug them up, cut off the rotten bits, dried the bulbs for a day and intended to re-plant them.
“I have to move my Iris bulbs and I may have to move a couple of other plants”
N, knowing that gardening was a particular pleasure/talent of mine, snorted at me, “I don’t want you to move the plants!”
“Well, they’re going to die where they are and if it means they’ll live, then I’ll move them. What’s the big deal?”
“Just put the plants in the ground and leave them.”
I told him that they will be fine once I get them back in the ground, in a sunnier location.
“Are you SURE?” he appeared incredulous – sneering even.
“Yes” I said, surprised. “As a matter of fact, I am. I got on the computer, researched the problem, and this is what you do to save them.”
He didn’t like that one bit and was furious. “I don’t want to talk about it anymore. Enough! Put the plants in the ground and leave them where they are! END OF CONVERSATION!”
I couldn’t believe how important it was for him to try to ruin something I enjoyed. Looking back I realize that it was something he couldn’t control; that was the problem…Unlike telling me regularly that it was “his” house and that I needed to go spend the night somewhere else; gardening was something that made me happy without his involvement. The garden was lovely too. He couldn’t stand it, and failed at making me doubt myself. Even worse, he failed at making himself feel superior.
His conviction didn’t hold for him this time.
Anyways. The conversation had moved on. All of a sudden he starts up about the plants again. He had had too much to drink and was getting nasty.
“You know” He snarled, “That yellow one you planted? It’s a SHADE plant and you’re going to kill it where you planted it!” He went on about a couple of other plants that came without ANY information. We didn’t even know what they were; so how would HE know if I had put them in a good spot or not?
“What the hell happened to `End of conversation’?” I asked. It was my turn to be incredulous. “I don’t want to argue about the plants. If they’re not happy where they are, then I’ll move them – no biggie.”
His lips thinned and paled – a sure sign of an argument, I had learned…I believe that was the same night where he later ended up banging his fists on the counter raging at me, “Yes! It IS all about me!” (Obviously I’d said something to the contrary – LOL).
The next day I dug into the recycling and pulled the tag for the yellow one, “Prefers FULL SUN to part shade.”
When I showed it to him he just looked at it as if it were nothing, saying, “Oh yeah”.
To him, that was yesterday – it’s done, already forgotten, history…get over it.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Jeannine,
I am so sorry you are going through this horrible injustice. The ONLY thing I can suggest is that you get and read “The Legal Abuse syndrome” It won’t change the way the courts are screwing you and enabling your X, but it will give you osome validation and some ideas for survival. It is a WONDERFUL BOOK….talking about not only getting screwed by the Ps but by the “in-Justice” system as well.
When we get screwed by the Ps and turn to the people and systems that are SUPPOSED to protect us, and they too screw us, but GOOD, the only thing we can change is HOW WE THINK ABOUT IT ALL. We are powerless to change the system, but we can change our reaction to it. ((((hugs))))) and God bless you and your daughter and my prayers are for your peace.
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ErinBrockovich says:
My S always had a self impossed “statute of limitations” on his lies.
It went as far as……as soon as the ‘deed’ was done, the statute was up. This is how he saw things….
I remember confronting him on something I had found hidden….his response was….why are you so upset, that was years ago.
He never could understand why I was so hurt NOW, even though I had just been made aware of the deceit.
I look at all the phrases I would use on him….like,
“Your an island in this world”
Now I understand just how spot on I was!!!
CHristie Lee: My S would do the same. I talked in my sleep. I knew I didn’t, but you definately question yourself…..that’s the design. He told me the same things….lusting after another man etc… he forgot that I was a virgin when we met and I have never been with anyone else but him, so there were no other’s I pined over.
It’s the design for control over you and keep you in line. It works, we do question ourselves, each time.
Good for you on the test! I am mortified, being a survivor and my self being accused of faking C, that anyone would do that. I have caught myself saying “who would fake C, no one would ever do that”…..I have learned differently.
People will question you, just do the right thing, keep your character in place, and this will move through….the clock doesn’t stop ticking for any of us! It sounds as if he has exposed himself with the ‘fatal error’ S’s never feel they will make.
It is scary, but you are strong, your in the right place and moving in the right direction.
Keep your spirit up.
PB:
“To him, that was yesterday – it’s done, already forgotten, history…get over it.”
The statute of limitations law of the S!!!
I have 20K daffodills blooming at the moment! I send you a mind full of yellow daffodills, (all planted in the right place).
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ErinBrockovich says:
Jeannine,
For what it’s worth to you….
I was told by a judge that at 14 the child could make their own decisions to walk away from the ‘visitation meeting locations”, as long as I did nothing to interfer with the visitation.
He said to make the meeting location safe and in public, and the child could choose to get there or not. It was up to my child to see the father if they so wished. I had no control over if they left and came home, never showed up, went to play practice etc….. I could not MAKE my child see the father. At 14 years old we can’t MAKE our kids do anything. Nor in this situation, would we scold them.
He will indeed take you back to court, but it sounds like your daughter has these wishes not to see her father….it’s not only your wish, but hers and it sounds as if she has explained that.
The key was, that I did nothing to interfere.
I hope it all works out for you and your kids. It’s heart wrenching indeed, along with costly.
Hang in there!
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Jim in Indiana USA says:
pb….flowers. Brings back a memory. About 22 years ago, now. We’d moved into a new house, and the next Spring I’d planted some flowers. My ex-tox began to complain I spent “too much time” taking care of them. I guess they weren’t about HER.
A while back, I found some pictures of my two middle daughters, now 24 and 26, standing in front of some dahlias I’d planted that Spring.
It was worth it.
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ErinBrockovich says:
Jim:
Dahlias are beautiful….I am sure not near as beautiful as your two daughters though.
Well worth it indeed!!!
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newlife08 says:
OK – here is one for the veterans to help me with!!!!
Why in God’s name would a man take his O/W to the same place he has vacationed with his wife and kids for years???
Back in 2006 when we were FIRST separated, N/S came to me and said that although we were not together, he still wanted the kids to have their vacation at the NJ shore. I was all for it – I know – smack me – but we had a very informal separation.
He was around us more then – than he was living at home.
Anyway, I am still plowing through paperwork and I find the day after he asked me to take the kids – he left with his O/W at the time (not the current one) and stayed at the same place we have taken the kids for 15 years!!!
HOW COULD HE DO THAT???
The owners know us – and our kids.
And then he shows up with his family weeks later???
Why is this bothering me so badly – again I feel like a ton of bricks has hit me.
I know so much now of what he has done – but this seems like even more of a violation because it involves my kids territory – not just me. But being with the skank next door now is a violation of our territory too.
Why am I crying ????? isn’t it just more of who he is?????
My stomach is sick to think he would take her there????
A million other places to go – how do you violate family memories????
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OxDrover says:
Dear Newlife,
((((Hugs))))) The answer to your question is “because that is just what THEY DO” I know it doesn’t make any sense to you, or even to me, but it is asking like “why does a snake bite?” The answer is the same, “because that is just what they do.”
They have NO sentimental memories, because nothing means anything to them, NOTHING. Not you, or the kids, or the OW or the place….NOTHING!
You have sentemental memories and you have love, they DO NOT.
Yes, it IS just more of WHO AND WHAT HE IS. Why do you cry? Because you loved him. That love is dying and it is painful to you. That is why you cry. You have a caring heart, he doesn’t. He moves on to the next woman because he can’t love. He can’t care. Everything he does is about HIM.
I am so sorry tht you are in such pain, but it will pass….cry and cry…it will help. ((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you.
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Matt says:
newlife08:
It doesn’t surprise me that he took the O/W to the same place he took his family. As devious and manipulative as these creatures are, they are, bizarrely, creatures of habit, and not overly original.
About 4 to 5 months ago, shortly after I started blogging on this site, somebody brought up this very topic. I was astonished at the number of bloggers who commented on the fact that their S had taken them on the same first date he had taken his other wives/women; taken them on identical vacations; run identical scams…you get the drift.
As for his violating family memories — you have figured out by now that nothing we normal humans cherish means a damn to an S. As a matter of fact, he probably got off on the fact that he thought he was pulling a fast one on you, and also putting the owner in a horrible position.
My advice? Turn this to constructive anger and nail him with it.
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Newlife,
You are upset because you are a good soul. A decent being. A thoughtful caring person. You (and we) often find ourselves in shock because we cant believe they dont do or choose to act the way we instinctively do with others in our lives.
They do what they do – because thats who they are. They have no understanding of real and true feeling or valuing “family memories” — they are selfish souls – they are not hardwired or somewhere along the way lost the capacity to form deep loving long lasting relationships. They live in the moment, fulfil their skewed sense of reality and operate in a fly by night fashion. They live double lives…they turn on and off..they disassociate…they fantasize…they live according to their own rules…making them up as they go.. often feeling indestructable and so powerful that there isnt anything they cant do or get away with…they are pathological — they are just a different breed — and often it isnt until they are “caught” or start to fall apart or flee – that we finally become awakened to the truth about them. The truth is they are the lie. They are selfish. They steal. They hurt without even realizing their selfish consequences wll tear apart and rip out another persons sense of well being, security, trust, health… because the other person (us) believed they were like us, or rather like the person we thought they were or wanted them to be or who they represented themself to be. They dont know how to be honest and true and real …or even worse they choose not to be because its what they want to do or all they know to do.
Im so sorry for your pain and all of the hurtful things he has put you through. But you are free and are making/taking steps to be rid of him and getting on with your life. I will never ever forget what mine put me through – but I now know he did it all -because thats what he does and will continue to do with any partner/significant beings in his life…leave them feeling used and abused…because these people are often living without a conscience and the only thing we can do is get away and move forward with our conscience in tact learning and growing and meeting others on good moral pathes and being aware of the red flags and acting on them! My prayers and ((hugs)) to you!
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newlife08 says:
You are all right – it Is really just more of the same basic behaviors.
Thanks – I will get stronger from this – I have to –
What is the saying???
What doesn’t kill you will make you stronger????
He really turned on the charm to get me to agree for the kids sake to even go – and then off he was with her the night day!!!
He must have gotten some high off of that one!!!!
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christie lee says:
The word freedom has taken on a whole new meaning for me. It used to be about taking chances, stepping out into the world and breathing it all in. This is exactly what I was doing when “he” came into my life. My former life bears no resemblance to this new so-called freedom I have now. The phone rings and I jump, and I dream horrible nightmares about being killed, or watching “him” hurt the people I love. I do not know where he is physically, but he lives and breathes inside of me. I feel toxic, as if I have been administered some kind of poison. Slow acting and deadly. People look at me and ask what is wrong, folks who have no idea what has happened. I simply can’t retell the story to explain, so I shelter the pain, putting off my obvious mood to something less ominous, like my failed attempts at finding a job, or that I am coming down with something. It’s easier than trying to explain, yet everything in me wants to just break down and spill my guts over anyone who will listen. I question my ability to know the difference between good and evil. I no longer look for the good, and wonder what a person’s true motivations are. This is not freedom, this is hell. Logically, I know that this attitude will only darken my path, but I can’t help how I feel. How can I just “snap out of it” like some people have said, saying “it’s over, you need to get on with your life” The worst thing that I have been told is that I will find someone new, someone who will not hurt me. But what about what I will do to them? I hate this. I feel overwhelmed.
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Christie Lee,
You are in a place I call “on hold” …its a place we all go through in the aftermath…its a place where we are taking it all in (what we went through) — its a place of confusion — its a place where not to much makes sense– and a whole hell of a lot HURTS — its the beginning of the process toward healing again..
Unfortunately we all must go through it and we feel alone and not heard. And nobody can say much to make us feel better. We have to go through all the emotional “chit” we were put through and now have to endure in the aftermath. We feel totally isolated and as though everything and everyone has new negative meaning for us.
In a way, everything and everyone will have new meaning for us. Including ourselves.Take some time to read some of the old articles here. I did and it helped me to see things more clearly. I eventually saw that as with everything in life …while I was “on hold” I had the choice to find my way out, stay there or go back. I wanted not only to find my way out, but to change (learn and grow) and get back to taking chances, stepping out into the world and breathing it all in again – but as a stronger wiser person.
For now you must go through the process and FEEL everything you are feeling and SHARE everything you are feeling. When you feel comfortable I encourage you to share your story, or whatever is on your mind. This is a safe place, a healing place. Opening up will help you move on from the “hold” youve arrived to in your life from your experiences with your ex and your past.
You are right your attitude can brighten or darken your path. But for now your attitude is justified and warranted. It only matters that you experience it share it and keep going to the next part of the process…you wont believe me right now…but I promise you there is such a thing as hell and BACK to healthy… your newfound freedom is down the road waiting …for each one of us..at our own pace…there is no hurry, but there is noway you will stay “on hold” forever …unless you choose to.
We have all had to readjust our ways of life, of thinking, of acting and reacting. Not because its a burden but because it protects us in ways we didnt do for ourselves prior to meeting a toxic person. Its something we were not equipped with and now as a result of our experience we have had to grow and learn about the fact that there is good and bad – with everything – including people – in the world.
Right now you need to go through what you are going through. And you also need to take care of yourself as best you can. Do little things, read much, share often as you like. I would be worried if you just “snapped out of it” – that wouldnt be a healthy thing to do – so you are someone who has feelings and cares and you are presently on hold…thats a good thing Christie Lee… take a deep breath, it gets better, it really does. One day at a time.
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christie lee says:
Thank you so very much, sometimes I wonder if I am the crazy one, but just knowing that there are people here who know what I am going through is an enormous comfort to me. I will try to be optimistic, even though I wonder how I allowed this to happen to me.
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learnthelesson says:
Christie Lee,
One of my first posts here was that I was scared I was the crazy one or that I ended up doing /acting/ being like him in an attempt to play the game or stay in it or figure it out. It is a crazy experience to say the least, but the point is that the difference is I sought out help, like you… I sought to find out what in the world I went through and how I allowed it to happen to me…he just goes on with his ways, making bad choices, using abusing and stealing and living in a crazy way. His choices are bad unhealthy debilating to others.
If we knew in the beginning what they were all about we would not have signed on…we would have turned them down….but they manipulate and lie and shove charisma and charm on us in the beginning…so its not that you allowed it to happen…its that you believed or trusted, thats okay to do. One of the things I use to do in my past was believe and trust up front – now i know to wait until they earn my trust. And now I always know to act on the red flags (deceit, weird feeling in pit of my stomach, strange requests, overly charming/charismatic, odd comments, uncomfortable feeling etc.)…
But that all comes with time and effort and learning and growing and rebuilding ourselves. For now you dont have to fake being optimistic you should just share what you are feeling and know its validated simply because its what you are feeling, realizing, understanding. LF is an amazing safe place to be, to share, to read…Glad you are here!
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ellejay says:
I have not read anything before that so succinctly describes something I have never quite been able to explain or articulate, but has lurked in the recesses of my mind ever since I left the relationship that seemed to turn me inside out.
I could never explain to anyone who has not experienced it how simply believable the man was purely based upon his own supreme confidence in anything he said or did. He was, as explained here, incredibly intelligent, very witty, charming. I was drawn to his aura of confidence and saw it as an optimistic way of viewing things that I had always tended to be less confident about. Coupled with his intellect, his knowledge of things, and this air of “anything is possible” it took quite a long time for me to see the difference between someone confident, but considerate and mindful of other’s feelings, and someone who’s confidence trod all over other peoples boundaries and feelings. At times, he would relay a tale of some achievement, often at someone’s expense,in such an engaging manner, with such charm and wit, that it wasn’t until later, away from his magnetic charm, you would start to question it in your mind, something was missing, something didn’t feel right, and then it would hit you, no feeling. No consideration. No humility or shame or empathy. Just glee at his own success.
Or how he could turn that charm, that confidence on you like a laser and make you question your own values. Easy away from him. The incident, the behaviour, was not acceptable. It was wrong. He showed no ounce of consideration for the other person. He told a blatent lie – but under the steady gaze of arrogant confidence, total self belief, with a charming smile, and no remorse, it was hard to defend your position. How do you point out to someone that what they did was unreasonable/inappropriate/rude/or even cruel when they do not have the slightest concern, guilt, remorse, or care about anything at all apart from their own needs?
It appalls me now to think I was so ready to believe the words that tripped from his mouth with such slick ease. That I actually had admired and respected this man because I hadn’t realised that underneath all this charm, guile, wit and apparent optimism and confidence, there beat an empty shallow heart.
I thank you for this because it puts into words exactly how I felt, and it’s a relief to know this wasn’t just something that happened to me. That I was the idiot who fell for such a person and couldn’t see the underlying dangers of such a person.
For a long time after I used the word brainwashed. I had come away feeling the man had somehow brainwashed me but had no idea how. I had lost sight of all things I believed and valued under his relentless ability to persuade me I was wrong. This was a man who made having a secret life of sexual promiscuity and prowling the internet for it seem perfectly normal and ok behaviour, and that it was your problem if you couldn’t see that or deal with it.
Fortunately, I found enough self respect left in the cross wired mess in my head to up and run once I saw that bland, couldn’t care less gaze turned on my distress as if I was an irritating little grub. Haughty, smug, and totally uncaring. Even when he came back to his house to find it empty, he was “disappointed to find I could not endure”.
I am healthy now, it was 3 years ago I left, but boy it is still so reassuring to find something like this to validate something I could not put into words. Even now, it still staggers me sometimes when I remember some of the things he did, and somehow managed to fool me into thinking it was not him, it was me. His trivialising of my feelings. His contempt at my worries and concerns. His consistent lack of ownership, responsibility or ability to see how his behaviours impacted on other people. He lied. Blatently. Did he care if he got caught out? No. He would just glibly lie over the lie, and twist everything round so you ended up convinced there was something wrong with you for even questioning.
God, it’s so good to not have to deal with that anymore.
So thank you.
Ellejay.
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Matt says:
Ellejay:
“he was “disappointed to find I could not endure”.”
Isn’t it amazing that we were expected to “endure”, rather than “live?” Meanwhile, our Ss were out there “living their lives to the fullest” or I guess what passed for living in their minds.
Never again will I stay in a relationship that is a punishment. Never again will I “endure” when the relationship is nonexistent.
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Rosa says:
I wanted to marry mine. In fact, I made it my mission. He was my Prince Charming! His confidence was SEXY! I was totally sucked in.
He had me “hanging in there” for something that was never going to happen.
I was also very young and naive, and in my early 20′s (perfect target).
I don’t regret it, because he taught me the difference between a genuine person and a fake.
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endthepain says:
Please bear with me here….today was the 2nd day of my anxiety attacks..and I havent had them since I kicked the S out in Feb…I dont know what is going on..I have been feeling very good…however still waiting to find out if I am going to have to go back to court regarding child support for our 3 yr old…the S has filed some “review” claiming he cannot find any work..altho he voluntarily left his job in Oct of 2008..came here and thought I would support him…..anyway…he is also losing his house..well actually his wifes house…as he did not contribute to the payments..and it went on short sale and I believe when go into foreclosure pretty soon here…anyways….I have been very close to his mom since I met her..she has been with me thru all of his crap…he is now trying to convince her of his lies and I think she is believing him..he has used her for money and he is now trying to get her to believe whatever he says..ITS SO FRUSTRATING..as I know this is ultimately going to damage my relationship with her and with my son…I have been in NC and today thru legal advice I received..I had to call and let him know I changed my number so that it wont look like I am trying to keep his son from him…I hated that I had to do that…its so much easier knowing he cant contact me..he doesnt care about my son and it just opened up all that crap again….he didnt answer it went to voice mail..which is good but Im still mad I had to do that..any words of wisdom or advice going forward..I need to be strong here as we do have a child here and he seems deadfast on being a deadbeat dad and not paing and using the bad economy to as an excuse to not be responsible..its sickening!!
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Rosa says:
EndthePain:
Wow! I FEEL your pain.
I am also currently involved in an ordeal where a small child is right in the middle of it all.
I will pray for you.
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Endthepain,
You are dealing with a very stressful situation…stress and fear of the unknown may be triggering your anxiety to the level you are experiencing. Im sorry you had to contact him as per legal advice. But if thats the case you did the right thing …and now have to find a way to regroup and find your strength to rid yourself of this bad person. Now you can start to dea with the reality of who he really is and may even need to remve yourself from reaching out to his mom. No contact with anyone he is associating with or poisoning…try to focus on yourself and your legal path you are taking and take care of yourelf as your son needs a healthy mommy!!!!!! Try things that are calming to you and surround yourself with whatever goodness you can Hang in there…
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endthepain says:
well any input would be invaluable then…as Im starting to feel foggy again after seeing so clearly….I hadd posted last week however lost the responses from Brokovich, Oxy and Matt..(sorry) Im so worried about my son and just wanting to keep him protected any way possible! He is only 3 and hasnt known his dad except for about 4 months out of that time…during that time it was pure and utter chaos…it greatly affected him..and seeing what I went thru after kicking him out was horrible as all I wanted to do was end the pain…Ive been much better tho and feel better however this “custody” is hanging over my head..as I have said before there is no custody in place..he moved to another state..all he is comncerned about is lowering his support obligation…however I feel he ultimately will try and use my son and obtain some type of a custody only for a monetary purpose tho….he abandoned my son when he was born and has again..he doesnt want to work….and IK dont know if I should even open a custody case???
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endthepain says:
ps..by the way..after coming back and forth between the 2 states for a months now he has stated he was going to stay in the other state ( as of 2 weeks ago) and not come back here….however now he is saying he will be coming back to the state in which I live…(crazy!!) must be nice to float around with no cares or responsibilities changing your mind as often as your underwear
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Endthepain,
Dont get caught up in the fog again…its a lure of sorts….to take you back down that painful path…regain your clarity and strength and self value again. This is a CRITICAL age for your sons growth and development…he needs security and to build his trust and sense of self with his caretaker…that is you…so you really need to be in the best place you can be..we cant determine the future and all the what ifs. but we certainly can be present and help define the present …by being in the moment with your son. Since there is no custody in place and he left for another state and he abandoned your son when he was born and then again and he has no job, Im not so sure you have a whole lot to fear..but Im not an attorney and think your attorney should be able to guide you with that. Maybe just have all your ducks in order…document everything…esp that on todays date you left a contact number and then document when you actually hear back from him, if at all. Be careful about discussing legal stuff with his mom or even involving yourself on any level. Try to focus more on you and your son….and seeing clearly again. You had a setback today, and tomorrow is a new day. You did the right thing and time will tell. Just focus on yourself and your son. Document your days and time spent with him in a journal…everyday… that will be good to have and to do to add some positivity into your world right now… and also a wonderful keepsake for your son…and something to take to court if ever need be!!
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usedabused says:
EndthePain -
LTL is right, document, document, document. Every attempt to call.
The court wants to see that you are the parent wanting nurture the relationship with the other, wanting your son to have a father. So if you try to initiate a visit and he declines, it cuts against him bad. You never, ever want to look like you are trying to prevent contact between them.
Talk to you lawyer.
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endthepain says:
I will do that and it makes sense. However how much do I try as I have been to encourage their relationship..when he is so unstable that after every time he spends time with my son there is total chaos..and again do I initiate the custody case?
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learnthelesson says:
Dear End the Pain,
I am not suggesting you go out of your way to seek him out for visiting your son or taking your son overnight. I am saying do whatever your lawyer suggests in terms of providing him with a contact number…point being you document that you “reached out” and gave him a number to be able to contact you/his son on April 29, 2009. Next you will document when he actually ATTEMPTED to contact his son. There is no need for you to seek out his seeing his son if you feel he is unstable and chaotic….but you have a right to seek out child support. As far as initiating custody care – that is decision only you can make with your family, friends and lawyers support. I do suggest you dont do anything out of anger or revenge but make the decision on what is best for your son and what you are willing to endure and go through on his behalf. The decision is based on your ability to stay the course and stick to the plan of full custody – because that is what you believe in your heart is best for you and for your son.
As far as encouraging a relationship with his father…it think its more like temporarily not discouraging it if the attempt is made to see his son, it can be done so as you see fit …with a custody agreement in place is always most helpful.
I dont envy the position you are in. It seems as though he is away right now in another state and keeps suggesting or threatening his return…but again that is yet to be seen. In the meantime you need to decide what YOU want for yourself and your son and take the steps necessary to ensure that outcome. In the meantime give your son all of your attention and love and warmth and your beautiful soul…he will thrive with you without the bad man around…and thats what you want to accomplish…a close wonderful bond with your son!!!
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Matt says:
endthepain:
You need to settle the custody issue — otherwise, S will continue to enter your life and then make pronouncements out of the blue such as his intention to take your son back to Arizona to live with him. Or any other half-assed idea that flies into his head and out of his head on any given day. It is called crazy-making behavior for a reason.
Also, if you have a custody agreement in place, it gives you leverage — either he abides by the literal letter of the agreement or you nail him. That means you can NEVER agree to one variation. If the agreement says he has your son on alternate Saturdays from 10-5, that means alternate Saturdays from 10-5. It does not mean Mondays. It does not mean he can return the child at 5:15. It is your only way to get control of his madness.
Also, once you have the custody agreement and support agreement in place, it gives you more leverage. If he doesn’t pay the support, you haul his sorry ass into court. Not that that means he will pay. What it means it that ultimately you are going to make it too expensive for him to stay involved in you and your son’s lives.
Enough time goes by with him abandonning your son, not paying support etc, you will then be able to go into court and move for termination of his parental rights. THAT is your ultimate goal.
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learnthelesson says:
Matt – Is your lunch appointment over yet??
I cant take the suspense!!
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