The pathological self-confidence of the sociopath
Pathologically self-centered individuals, such as sociopaths or narcissists, often project a level of self-confidence that is pathlogically tremendous. This can be a problem for others who, unlike the sociopath, will be prone to empathy and self-reflection, along with which come self-doubt and hence fluctuating, less dependable levels of confidence.
But the pathologically self-centered individual is often seemingly immune to self-doubt and can thus seem implacably, impressively confident. Why?
The answer is suprisingly simple: When your interest in others is principally, if not entirely, about what you can get, or take, from them; when you lack the capacity for, and/or inclination to, genuine, thoughtful self-reflection; and when the meaning, or purpose, of life is fundamentally reduced to the expectation, and pursuit, of continual gratification, you have a prescription not only for pathological self-centeredness, but its frequent concomitant—pathological self-confidence.
Think about it: for such an individual, it is mostly, and sometimes only, about what he wants. And if he knows what he wants, such an individual will feel entitled to it. And his sense of entitlement becomes self-validating—self-validating, that is, of whatever argument, rationalization, or manipulation brings him closer to his demand.
In other words, the pathologically self-centered individual has something very powerful in his favor—conviction. His is the conviction of his entitlement, of his right to have what he wants—whether it’s agreement, an apology, special attention, cooperation, sex, a favor, forgiveness, you name it.
And he wields his sense of conviction powerfully and persuasively—all the moreso if he’s also articulate and glib.
This explains how a sociopath can look you in the eye and blame you for something—even his victimization of you—and yet you struggle to fully disbelieve him. As I just noted, if he is intelligent and glib, he is in an even better position to erode your sense of reality. He can construct positions, however absurd and even confirming of his sociopathic orientation, that nevertheless have just enough superficial plausability to arrest your attention.
Once you’ve been disarmed, even slightly, his impregnably confident assertions, stemming from his pathological self-centeredness, can have a brainwashing influence.
You wonder if you’re not crazy? The “gaslighting effect” is in full throttle. It is disorienting, literally, to have someone present even a ridiculous proposition, demand, or accusation with unwavering confidence and certitude. And the disorienting effect is magnified exponentially when the assertion is simultaneously packaged in superficially intelligent, coherent, “rational”-sounding language. Confidence in one’s sense of reality can wane, and fail, under this combination assault.
This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality.
(My use of “he” in this article was for convenience’s sake, and not to suggest that females are not capable of the behaviors described. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
nomore_discomBobulat says:
I have never seen anything so succinctly and powerfully describe my husband as this!
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 12:02pm
nomore_discomBobulat says:
And I should have added to the above: and our relationship. I have about as much self-doubt and over critical self reflection as one can have. And my h sure made use of this to the extreme.
Thank- you Mr. Becker.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 12:07pm
greenfern says:
Yesterday night, talking with my therapist, I realized that the self doubt is still there after many years. I know better, logically I know better. I see the pathology, the pattern, the way the relationship played out. I understand my role, and trying to care less about his way of thinking. The more I read this blog, the more things become clear. Things that I felt before but could not admit to myself. Things that I might have felt, yet could not put into words. This whole new door opened up for me, once I understood that he is a sociopath. Yet, I still have moments where I feel like it did not happened, I imagined it etc….It’s a brief feeling, in logic I know that it did happened, it was real. In that moment I feel like looking into a dizzifying cascade. The years I spent with him become hallucination-like in my head. I ask myself :was that really possible?
Then I need to reassure myself. Yes. it happened.
This seed of residual, occasion self doubt is what I need to un-earth in therapy.
Anyone have similar moments sometimes?
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 12:23pm
newlife08 says:
It is just this ability that allowed my husband to suck me in every time . He has a way of speaking that is so confident (of course I am used to it) that you believe everything he says and meanwhile convince yourself you must have heard wrong, thought wrong, misinterpreted and misunderstood.
How could I question him when he is SO SURE of what he is saying or said previously.? Of course, I am always multitasking , so I must have given him only part of my attention.
Even now, while divorcing, his answers are SO QUICK to even the most difficult or emotional questions – the answer just flows and you believe.
But I am learning discernment and to look beyond that quick answer – see the blank kind of look in his eyes, the lack of remorse or shame – the lack of thought -his wit is quick and never fails to respond.
I am learning to ask questions I already know the answer to – just to test for the lying – and the lies flow as smoothly as if they were the truth. This is why I always believed him – no body language to give him away. No hesitation !!!!
Yet, now that quick witty answer seems to be a dead giveaway – there is no THOUGHT behind it – it seems to just serve as a way out for him – a way to end the conversation or excuse away his behavior – and naturally , his answers now are always some criticism of me and why it is all my fault.
He wasn’t happy – so he cheated.
He worked hard – so he was entitled to spend what he wanted.
Add his intelligence and it becomes a deadly cocktail as Steve states – a controlling influence that is hard to ignore – and if you look up to him because he is able , handsome, charming and the attraction is there – say good night.
Now I have to learn to accept these truths – that he is ill – it isn’t me – and I can’t fix it. I would if I could.
I have to take the responsibility for taking so long to allow my gut feelings to come to the surface and confront him – for allowing the damage to myself and my children to continue.
My kids lost a lot because I was so busy trying to please him and now because the final outcome is also hard to handle they see me struggle with healing.
I want better for them – and for me.
I feel like Dorothy on the yellow brick road – lost – looking for the right path to home while the Wizard has left the castle.
I have to stop looking for him to wake up and return…..
Thank you , Steve – for sharing your expertise with us!!!
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 12:51pm
Tood says:
Oh, Greenfern, do I ever have moments like that…still.
After the big reveal; after three years of shock and pain; after fighting my way back from emotional, financial and mental devastation; after the horrible revelations that he sexually molested my daughters; after his arrest and subsequent escape from any real punishment; after two more years of dealing with the additional revelations; after fighting the psychopath, the state and all the enablers of his evil; after realizing how he robbed me and my children of everything we had but each other; even after ALL of this, I sometimes have to shake my head to clear away the memories of JUST HOW NORMAL AND WONDERFUL HE SEEMED back then.
It seems impossible, and yet it happened. The loss of all my good memories is one of hardest parts of this whole experience. There is literally no “mental space” from my past that I can go to and find joy and peace. He ruined EVERYTHING, every moment, by his mere presence.
It doesn’t give me self-doubt so much as it gives me continued SICK AMAZEMENT at just how deceptive the human animal can be. I now know exactly what he is, and I know my “diagnosis” is 100% correct. I have had enough pure NO CONTACT time to be able to self-validate my own reality. You’ll get there too, with enough determination and self-work.
Just keep seeing what you see, and hearing what you hear, and knowing what you know. Even if no one–and I mean NO ONE–believes you, you hang onto what you KNOW is true. There is evil in the world and there are evil people, and sometimes the worst of humanity is hiding behind the prettiest, most normal, exceedingly self-confident facade.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 1:05pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Steve…I had to laugh…right on the money! Mine did that…when I caught her in a lie…a BIG one, she lied to blame it on me. And HER LIE became her TRUTH!
Yeah, no contact is the only way…once you escape. You can’t discuss anything rationally with someone who lives in a made-up world, based on their own lies and where all history, the bad part, was your fault.
Thanks, Steve, I needed to read that, today.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 1:07pm
Tood says:
New Life,
It was a happy day for me once I realized that none–not a single one–of the normal markers we humans use to convey meaning means jack-diddley-squat when you’re dealing with a true psychopath. No facial expression, no micro-expression, no tone of voice, no facile and plausible explanation, NOTHING has any meaning at all. The only thing that has meaning is their ACTION.
Once I learned this, I began to turn away from him and his problems, and turn toward myself and my healing.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 1:26pm
justabouthealed says:
As always, perfect. I reread your articles and posts often.
The other resource I reread are by this author.
http://counsellingresource.com.....g-focused/
Still, nothing helps me the way your articles do. I really do feel I should change my name to Healed. I’m there. I just reread once in awhile to keep my head on straight.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 2:08pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Justabouthealed,
I used to think I was “totally healed” but I realized that there is no “heal-ed” place, but a ROAD TO HEALING that is a journey not a destination, but as you get closer and closer, and further along on the journey the road does become smoother, the scenery more beautiful and life more wonderful, and the acute pain is gone! I’m on the JOURNEY and intend to stay on that journey for the rest of my life.
Too many times in the past have I jumped up and screamed “I’m healed” only to find that I was still VULNERABLE to the next P down the road….I will never pronounce myself heal-ED, just heal-ING because I think for me at least, if I get too sure that I am heal-ED, I will wind up a victim again, because I will start to feel TOO SAFE and become less cautious.
That’s why I am still here at lovefraud, I don’t ever want to FORGET or to become too sure of myself….I can see here that people, SMART people and even those that know about Ps CAN be fooled. I’m like the “recover-ing” alky who still keeps “going to AA meetings” because they don’t want to ever BACKSLIDE. Maybe there will be a time I don’t need to “go to meetings” or go as often, but right now, I am NOT TAKING ANY CHANCES. One day at a time.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 2:22pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
NoMore, Jim in Indiana, JustAboutHealed, NewLife…
Many many thanks for your appreciative responses…I’m so glad that what I’ve written resonates with, and supports your, experience and healing…and really, truly grateful for the time you take time to express it!
Thanks!
Steve
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 2:36pm
shabbychic2 says:
Steve: Do these S’s know all this information about themselves and us? It just hard for me to believe the ones I were involved with are that smart, although I lived my life just repeating stupid mistakes. So they just want what they want and do not care about using people? Do they think they are normal and just know that I’m a kind stupid person? And they just stay away from the smart ones who can see through them?
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 2:36pm
learnthelesson says:
Steve said
“This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality”
They seem to have innate ability to target the ones who self-question, self-doubt themselves.. (not necessarily” stupid ” people..) but “pleasers” , “low-selfesteemers, weakers….thats why IT IS KEY TO BECOME SELF EVERYTHING FROM A – Z TO WARD OFF S AND REMAIN S-FREE.. Self-confident in an honest way, selfish in a safe and kind way, self-respecting knowing your boundaries and keeping them firmly in place, self-loyal KEEEP YOUR WORD ..not only to them when you say NO MORE, GOODBYE…but to and for yourself…keep your word to yourself. Self-trusting…at the end of the day open your eyes and see the person for who they are as being deceitful, conniving, controlling, callous…not for who you want them to be or who they were for a sliver of the time in the beginning.. trust yourself that you are better off without them – because you know you are — you just have to muster up the strength and courage to accept that they are who they are and they will always treat you the way they do. People dont change unless they want to. They simply dont want to…they want you to stay stuck, confused, mixed up – because when you actually do get it together with real self-confidence – they actually know you can see right through them and their pathological “self confidence” and they try to find another victim or source who cant see through them…just yet!
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 3:23pm
Matt says:
Steve:
“This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality.”
Yup. Sign me up for that club.
S was an ex-convict, financial and career failure, who wasn’t all that good-looking. The casual observer would say “what a loser.” I am 180 from him.
I have always been questioning and self-doubting, having grown up in a highly abusive home. Still, I wouldn’t have gotten where I am today if I were a complete pushover — or so I thought. On some level I must have thought since I survived bootcamp at my parent’s house, nothing could ever flatten me again.
Wrong.
When I found out about S’s being recently released from prison and the lies I caught him in, I was still willing to give him a chance. A horrendous mistake. The abuse steadily increased. By the end I didn’t know which end was up. S flattened me with his staggering sense of entitlement and his stunning self-confidence.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 4:54pm
akitameg says:
Hi–
I have not jposted in over a week b/c I am kind of moving. Everything in boxes. No computer.
borrowing a laptop right now and I need ya’ll help; for real.
Lots of you have blogged with me before and know my situation.
I found out today tht my ex is calling another one of my sweet, best friends at her home!
we do not know how he got her number. She will not pick up phone.
What SELF CONFIDENCE that this man has done what he has done to me== and he will call my best friends and not even block his phone number.
she has not talked to him. she says she does get private numbers now.
You guys– do you have any idea how much I want to call him or call his exwife– who is most likely being conned by him as I write.
I want to do it. I want to end my pain. I want answers. closure. why is he calling. More smear campaign my friends think as he called my poor friend who has Leukemia three months ago and went on and on about how horrible MEG IS!!!! He would not even let my friend speak– did not respect her when she said i do not want to talk to you– do not call here.
My two friends are saying no!!! Do not call him. Nothing good could come out of it.
The injured person who stilldreams of him all damned nite– wants to imagine that he loves and misses me you guys!!!!!
Please, please give advice.
I have not called.
He will find me. I know it. and now that he is a millionaire? he can afford to find me?
should I at least call his exwife?
this is a nightmare from which I cannot awaken?
do I call? do I call her? do I call lawyer? I have not money or job yet– real job anyway. NOt good.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 5:06pm
witsend says:
akitameg….
I have read your post and prayed that someone who has walked in your exact shoes would give you a GREAT reply.
No one seems to have done that yet so I am going to reply even though I might not be the one you need to hear from.
I read as I am sure you did also the opening article and this is something for you to read over.
The very last part….
“This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality”
This part at the end really is something that might hit home right now. You are thinking with your “heart” right now.
If he is a sociopath he hasn’t changed in the time apart and WILL not change. Wherever your relationship with him ended it will BE THE SAME AGAIN. The answers you want so badly still will not be answered nor will you get any closure. ALL YOU WILL GET IS MORE PAIN.
I have never read any of these blogs that suggest the N/C isn’t one of the most imprtant things you need to do to heal and move forward.
You said the injured person that still dreams of him….I would suspect that your love for him was an illusion. In other words you loved him for what you “thought” he was or pretended to be but NOT who he really was.
Do not call his ex. Do not call him. Go by one of your girlfriends houses and stay with them until you feel better.
And hopefully you will also hear from one of the more experienced people that have such great advice.
good Luck
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 5:59pm
akitameg says:
witsend–
I am at my witsend as well. ACtually I was there 6 months ago. Now I am in the negative.
I thank you sooo much for your reply. Thank you. Thank you.
why can’t we call their ex’s? He is sure calling MY PEOPLE. My gosh– I have numbers to his family, job, exwife– lawyers– everyone– have I ever called them and told them that this man is Satan Incarnate– literally? No—-
so why would he search, search out friends of mine– across the US who have families and have known me fo 22 years and are sick?
I just wish his exwife knew the truth! I am a victim with no voice to defend my rapist– or tell folks that he will rape again and continues to do so–
thanks again.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 6:11pm
witsend says:
The ex wife thing is more about what it will do to YOU not the effect it will have on him or her. By talking to her when your in a bad place I would say it might be like fueling the “fire”.
right now you don’t need that! It wouldn’t do any good for you.
Remember your “people” are real people and they love you for WHO you really are. Those that might listen to his nonesense are not your “real people” to begin with if he is trying to smear your name.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 6:25pm
learnthelesson says:
Akitameg -
I second witsend with every single word of advice and support she gave you. It is spot on !
And you still are in a place of wanting to know why to questions that if/when answered wont give you any more closure… just more confusion. Because he could choose to lie about his answers why he is contacting her…or even on the far off chance he is looking to lure you back, or he misses you…what good is that answer? So now he is a really bad man who misses you. What are going to do with that information? See either way he is a bad guy. The person you need to tell that he will rape again is yourself – stay away – youve come so far, so far Akitameg. Dont go backward by making any kind of contact… watch him fade away again because he didnt make you weak…he doesnt care…only if you respond and be the source that “feeds” him.
His exwife – will figure it out, if she already hasnt . Or she will form her on conclusions about him when she is ready
Have you all seen in the news the young guy “well known, well -liked upstanding citizen” from Boston (i think) who was driving with his fiancee and was pulled over and arrested for murdering a massage therapist in her hotel room and robbing her for money. And holding another stripper hostage and robbing her and I think yet a third therapist …all posting on craigs list for “services”….
Point is his fiancee wrote a letter to the Today Show, saying “the police have the wrong guy, her guy is sweet as could be wouldnt hurt a fly, he has been set up…etc… Even with police evidence (girls underwear hidden in a copy of the book Grays Anatomy, gun and plastic handcuffs confescated from his apt in which he lived with her!!!!! = she still was in a severe state of denial…protective…and probably in shock. Noone will be able to get her to begin to accept this – accept herself when she is ready. Everyone who knows a bad man has to come to their own terms and get their life back on track their own way. Dont need to tell, deal with others… need to tell yourself and deal with the need to contact or have questions answered…its all normal… but in the end its all really worth nothing… because he is was and always be the lie and the bad man. Let go and move on! Youre SO CLOSE!!!
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 6:47pm
Matt says:
akitameg:
I would hazard a guess that the fact your your S is divorced probably means she knows what he is all about. Even if she doesn’t, her reality is that she didn’t want him in her life and that is why they got divorced. Nothing can be accomplished by contacting her.
As for him contacting your friends, this is definitely out of bounds. The only friend of S’s that I have anything to do with is a friend (former?) of his who asked me out to lunch. Your friends have an option when he calls — they can HANG UP. These subhuman creatures have no feelings so it’s not like they can offend him.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 7:27pm
witsend says:
akitameg
Ox Drover also had some wonderful words of wisdom posted above. About healing and how it is a process…She said healing is a journey and not a destination.
How true that is… I think anything that happens in our lives that really hurts us to the depths of our souls will always be a part of us. Not in a bad way necessarily (except it feels that way in the begining of the process). Anything that touches our lives so intensely, changes our lives FOREVER….We can never be what exactly the same person as we were before. But that is a good thing in the end. We continue be more “complete” as we continue our healing. It means we are growing and learning as we go.
HANG in THERE. You will feel better. And each day that passes is one day closer.
I didn’t mean to imply (if I did) that it doesn’t hurt when your ex is trying to “smear” you or talk about you to others…..
I can relate to that and it DOES hurt. I live in a very small town and when my husband commited suicide that was VERY BIG news for awile. You would be shocked how many people have very distorted opinions on suicide…And how many people shared THAT with me.
Once I was in a store and over heard 2 people I had not ever seen before that were “talking” about it and speaking as if they had known both of us , yet relating the story with no truth or facts.. Alot of rumors that I am sure they had heard…
In the “big picture” of things though it was the least of my problems. This although a painful moment at the store this was not where my “energy” needed to be. I would be hurting for a long while after this would be “old” news around town.
I hope that you have many supportive people around you.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 8:16pm
justabouthealed says:
The person you most need to “warn” and “support” and “protect” and give closure to is yourself, from yourself. No contact. Try to even just set aside 30 minutes a day AT MOST that you even allow yourself to think of him. If you think of him at any other time, picture him with a long nose from all the lies, his head in a stockade, whatever reminds you he is BAD and not worth your time. Make a list of all the inexcusable things he has done to you. Reread it when you are weak. Tell yourself the WHOLE truth.
I had a hard time giving up warning other women. I did. And you know what….every single one of them already had his number. And then I realized if someone had warned me when I didn’t have his number, I would have not believed them.
Think of someone you really admire, and then think what that person would say about this person to you. Picture yourself feeling self-confident, happy….would you still want this person in your life? Start concentrating on becoming strong and confident….and pretty soon you will be!
All hard advice to follow until you are ready, but you have made really great strides!
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 8:33pm
akitameg says:
I can’t thank you all enough for your posts!
I will now think of him as Pinnochio!!
Big group hug to all of you.
since i have moved to a new state and city– I have no real friends yet. I thank you all more than you know.
MATT– i FREAK out abou the exwife cuz I now remember signs of him hiding me and trying to get back with her. His sister also told me that the exwife still loved him (I understand that) and that the ex only divorced him to get him to go get help out of despertion of losing his beautiful Japanese wife and child. That she would take him back in a sex b/c his other side– the “man she married” was so sweet. exact words and God do I know what they mean. And imagine–
he has a 6 yr old little girl with this woman.
what a mess. If they truly knew what he was– they would know that he cannot change. He is more evil than they realize and I hate living with the truth on my own. /but maybe I am not. I have you guys and you seem to have seen the same ugly face/spirit.
love to allllll of you!
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 9:49pm
akitameg says:
oh my gosh. look at my Fraudian slip/typo above!!!!
“she would take him back in a sex…”
I meant to type sec.
but I was remembering how good he was in bed and how that had a hold on me as I am sure it does her.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 9:51pm
kate_592 says:
I have read this site for a long time but never posted before.
However, this post spoke to me in volumes and was truly brilliant. And so very timely.
It’s three years since I left the S (or was discarded and kicked to the curb moreso) in rather traumatic circumstances. Just last night I learned something that threw me right back to this time and had me in tears.
Throughout my relationship with the S, I fell for most things hook line and sinker. His confidence and sense of self was one of the attributes I loved about him.
Essentially he targeted me for my money. We were going to buy a house together. Except suddently my money got transferred into his business. I tried to get it back. He ended up getting violent. He then made threats about what I would lose if I told anyone. I made the decision to call a distant acquaintance because of his field of expertise. I was too ashamed to tell any family and was living in a foreign country so had no close friends around me. I rang the number, a child answered and I hung up and thought better of it. It occurred to me how would I explain how it all happened and still make any sense.
Unbeknownst to me the S used to check the numbers I rang. He contacted this person (he had heard of him) and charmed his way into repeated conversations with him. After establishing that I had not been in contact with him, he told him that our relationship had not worked out and I was a ‘fruit loop’ and had conned him. He said I had taken off and he didnt know where I was but I may go looking for him and end up knocking on his door because he didnt think I had any money. He said he had a very important job and he had all these highbrow functions to go to and I was an embarassment to him (um the football??) because i was such a nutter. He kept repeating the words, “Its Unbelievable”. He said lots more but I will not go into it as I am sure you get the idea. This guy thought he sounded a very nice man and ended up feeling sorry for him. The S even invited him and his family to his ‘big house’ where he would entertain him and see that he had a wonderful weekend. We were living in a 2 bedroom flat and I was still living with him for a further 14 months after this. But of course unbeknownst to me his wife lived in a house which he jointly owned. I had never left the flat.
This acquaintance said he had niggling doubts for a long time about what happened to me (we were not close contacts at all) and eventually he went online looking for me and found my daughters Facebook page and got in touch. And he ended up telling me all this.
It makes me wonder if the S was going to kill me (he did try and strangle me 13 months later after he had lost my money and my usefulness had gone) and whether he was laying the groundwork or he was scared I would tell this guy things and he wanted to get in first to make him think I was crazy. It threw me completely and and I am now wondering what else he did and said. The web is always way worse than we think.
Last night I was feeling like **** and wondering how anyone could be that evil. It’s hard for me to still try and reconcile how they can control people in such a way. AND THEY ARE SO GOD DAMN BELIEVABLE.
This scares me because I coud never afford legal help (it happened in the UK and I am elsewhere) and now finally, after all ths time, the police contact me how of the blue and are making enquiries about my fraud and assault. BUT, who will believe me or anyone over him. He is Mr Cool still running a business and bragging about his success. Two weeks after I left him to face bankruptcy he was remodelling his house and taking overseas trips (with his wife I thought was an ex wife). Confidence knows no bounds. And poor self esteem becomines our undoing.
I agree with Ox its a journey and I dont expect to get over it because there will always be things like this that pop up out of the blue.
Thanks Steve for such a timely post for me. Now I still have to totally get that it was nothing personal.
Thanks everyone for your wise post and comments – never took the opportunity to say it but its what keeps me coming back for another dose of the best medicine in the world. I need an overdose today.
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Thursday, 23 April 2009 @ 10:40pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
kate_592
“BUT, who will believe me or anyone over him.”
I will. Others here will. Wondering about what he had planned? Well, it didn’t work, for him, and probably can’t be explained to a “real” person. You’re away from him and can find what YOU want. And on the journey, with time, more for you and less of him in your thoughts.
Glad you found this site and that it helps.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 4:25am
Elizabeth Conley says:
“In other words, the pathologically self-centered individual has something very powerful in his favor—conviction. His is the conviction of his entitlement, of his right to have what he wants—whether it’s agreement, an apology, special attention, cooperation, sex, a favor, forgiveness, you name it.
And he wields his sense of conviction powerfully and persuasively—all the moreso if he’s also articulate and glib. ”
Thanks Steve. This goes a long ways toward explaining something that still has me scratching my head from time to time: why is he so believable?
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 6:01am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear Akita Meg,
Your ex S is a Drama Wh-re, and he will go away when people stop giving his performances air time.
1. When your friends stop picking up the phone, he’ll stop calling. If they don’t have the sense to do that,
Then -
2. When you stop responding emotionally to their reports that he’s calling, his ability to triangulate you through them will end. He’ll sense that it’s not working. This method is slower, but still effective.
As for the S’s ex wife, if she’s dumb enough to go a 2nd round, she’s not going to benefit from anything you say to her. Write her off.
Meg Sweetie, toughen up. This is life or death here. Your life. If this keeps up, you’re going to get very sick. Now quit paying attention to your ex S, and start giving yourself some of that attention. Meg deserves it, the ex S most assuredly does not.
Love,
Elizabeth
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 6:49am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kate,
I TOO WILL BELIEVE YOU! Sometimes we are not able, unfortunately, to recover what they took from us (money and other physical things) but we CAN recover our dignity and our souls! Yes, recovery is a JOURNEY, not a destination, but YOU CAN BECOME WHOLE AGAIN. Even better than that, you can become YOU. I think most of us had “something” in our backgrounds or our genetics that made us willing to believe their lies, even when those things began to HURT.
No other species of predators that I know of tries to get their victims to love them and “volunteer” to be the victim, over and over and over….but the Ps do.
You talked about how you didn’t tell your family because you were ashamed! I KNOW THAT FEELING of shame, but the SHAME should be for HIM not you….you have done nothing wrong. Think about it. If a stranger pulled you off the street and raped you, would you likely feel SHAME? Well, the answer believe it or not, is YES YOU would feel the “shame”—but the shame TRULY BELONGS TO THEM….of course they don’t FEEL it, but we should NOT feel it, but we DO.
I too felt SHAME, for this and for that and for the other thing that the Ps in my life did to me…..yet that shame should NOT have been mine! Yet, I felt it. DE-shaming is a big part of what we have to do, to let go of that shame, and quit feeling it. Shame should be for a bad behavior that WE do, not feel the shame for something that is done TO us. Shame is not a bad thing, it along with guilt, helps to keep our moral compass on the right track. Since they have NO moral compass, and they have no shame and no guilty, they do whatever they damn well please to others and feel just fine about it.
I’m glad you have been lurking and learning here, but I am also glad that you now feel strong enough to post here!!! Your post is so welcome! Please hang around and continue to grow and learn. (((((hugs))))) and always my prayers.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 7:41am
OxDrover says:
Dear Meg,
My dear meg, you have gotten some excellent advice from the posts above, but I agree with Elizabeth that you MUST toughen up, you must get it! YOU must start taking care of YOU.
All the questions you asked about “should I call her” etc…..you know the answers we would give you on that.
The “he will find me”—-I think is the thing that has you so FEARFUL, and that is what I am finding in your post is the FEAR he will find you.
I too have CONCERNS that my son may send a killer to FIND me….but Meg, I have finally realized that the only thing that if that happens is that he can kill me. That’s all he can do.
This may sound dramatic but “the coward dies 1000 deaths, the brave man but one.” It is so true. As long as you are
“SCARED SHITLESS” YOU WILL LIVE IN FEAR like a mouse in a hole thinking there might be a cat outside so he sits in the hole and starves to death. Meg, you are sitting in your hole emotionally starving yourself because you think he MIGHT FIND YOU.
I lived in my own “hole” for quite some time….but I am back in my house now and my P son and his henchman know where that house is. But I no longer COWER in a hole or live in TERROR, I live with CAUTION, reasonable caution and I have made PLANS of how I will respond if a henchman does show up.
I would rather LIVE than to cower in my hole and starve. I made the decision that I will NOT live in terror, I would rather die first (literally if it came to that) I am NOT wanting to die, but what is “life” if I have to live it in a dark hole starving.
You have two choices in my opinion, you can continue to live in your HOLE and whine and tremble, or you can decide to LIVE. It is YOUR CHOICE, independent of who he is trying to call or what he is doing, or how much money he has or anything else.
I know that down deep there is the strength in you to do this, the AKITA strength…..think about it. What would an AKITA do? Would an AKITA cower inside a hole? NO!!!!! NO!!!!!! and neither should you. .Draw strength from that inner akita and stand up and be courageous…..bravery is not being UNAFRAID, it is being scared shitless and STILL DOING WHAT IS RIGHT!
Now, Meg, I love you, you know that, but if you keep cowering in that hole, I will get my skillet and my grappling hook and pull you out by the hair of your head!!!!! Now you stand up like the A. S. S. (assertive survivor of a sociopath) that I know you are, and take care of YOU!!!!!! (((((hugs))))) and all my prayers for your peace!
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 7:54am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Akita MEG…
WHAT OXY SAID!!! THATS WHAT I WOULD LOVINGLY SAY TO YOU!! The analogy of the Akita — WOW, WOW, WOW— how appropriate for YOU! You are so close AkitaMeg….by choosing to make no contact, by choosing to get on with your life and seeing where the unknown may take you.
Compare apples, if you need to. You and a new life with yourself and the unknown…Or you and the old life, the old ways with a bad man..who makes bad choices where you are concerned, except always sugarcoating it with what he knew you “needed to hear to stay”… to be abused…but nonetheless to stay … “Im sorry, I love you, I wont do it again, blah blah blah….ugh ugh ugh….nah nah nah!!!!!! Dont go back to the lie, the games, the abuse!!!
LET GO, MOVE ON! A better life awaits you without abuse – and with SELF LOVE, SELF RESPECT AND SELF TRUST. Time to implement all that into your life NOW – not him!!!! xoxo
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 8:33am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Kate,
Wow! And what a con-man!! He sounds like a really bad guy. Sickminded. And potentially dangerous. Im soooooooooo glad you are out and away. The ONLY ONE WHO EVER NEEDS TO BELIEVE YOUR WORDS, YOUR TRUTH, IS YOURSELF. AS LONG AS YOU KNOW THE TRUTH YOU WILL NEVER GO BACK. AND IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO ASSIST THE POLICE IN THEIR INVESTIGATION, YOU MAY CHOOSE TO DO SO. OR JUST BE DONE WITH ALL OF IT COMPLETELY.
Your comment about
“confidence knows no bound and low self esteem becomes our undoing”
beautifully stated…I would add tho…”pathological confidence knows only lies, infidelity, bad choices..and eventually exposure!!!!!
Im sorry for your loss and your pain and suffering. Im so glad you found LF too…its one of the most healing places ever! So long as you are ready willing and able to let go and heal and move on….you can get past anything.
I expect you will get over it, because the things that pop up out of the blue are meant too! To give you more insight, validation, acceptance that this guy was a creep. And your job for yourself now is to recognize and learn the red flags and get out get away ASAP! I learnED a much needed lesson that the HARD EARNED money that is in my bank account with my NAME on it is – is for a reason – it is meant for me. Not anyone else.
Good luck! Glad you are here~
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:03am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Great Steve!
Q: Where does this pathological self confidence come from biologically?
A: The social dominance drive and testosterone, even in women. Testosterone produces feelings of well-being and self esteem. Pathological self confidence is important for the attainment of dominance. If the silverback gorilla didn’t believe in himself how could he win? Of course he is entitled to status, he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread!
Most dominance contests, even in other mammals are won by bluff and intimidation as opposed to physically aggression.
Psychologists need to work on better separating the “pathological self confidence” that is in a sense an artifact of the dominance drive, from true self esteem that results from one’s own realistic appraisal of one’s accomplishments.
Most sociopaths lack achievement motivation and so have few accomplishments to be proud of or to give them real self-esteem.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:21am
witsend says:
OMG today is a bad day…My son evidently had a melt down at school with a teacher. The teacher called me. I am trying to get ahold of him again (teacher) to have him repeat to me exactly what happened. My son said something at the end of the conversation to this teacher that went something like this: You can’t help me, the school can’t help me and my mom can’t help me. He also informed the teacher that he was not going to report after school for a detention….The teacher said he was crying when he walked away.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:48am
akitameg says:
Oxy–
I love you and thank you so much. You — are right– and Akitas are even left alone with kids in Japan b/c they will not let anyone hurt the kids. They are guard dogs who are very loving, but who have discernment.
Elizabeth, LearntheLesson–I thank you from the bottom of my loyal Akita heart.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 10:00am
Elizabeth Conley says:
“You can’t help me, the school can’t help me and my mom can’t help me. He also informed the teacher that he was not going to report after school for a detention….The teacher said he was crying when he walked away.”
Time to intervene – big time. Yes, call the school. Better yet, go in to the school. Talk to everyone and anyone.
Your son MAY NOT be alone today – not even “alone in a crowd”.
Something is very wrong here.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 10:06am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Wit’s End,
Depression isn’t just feeling sad. In fact, depressed people don’t feel sad all the time. They can feel:
1. Mysterious aches and pains
2. Exhaustion
3. Desire to sleep 24/7
4. A continual mental fog
5. Lack of interest
Sadness may or may not accompany depression. When it does, it’s usually only intermittent.
When depression hits the uninitiated, it feels like it will never end. The victim can hardly remember not being depressed, and quickly looses hope s/he will ever feel good again. Further, the victim lacks the vocabulary to articulate what has gone wrong. The victim also tends to reason that what has gone wrong originates outside of himself, because this seems logical. To restate: the victim figures he feels bad because of things happening in his environment. (After all, isn’t that how emotions are “supposed” to work?)
Can you get him in to his Psychiatrist? Of all the people you dealt with, the Psychiatrist sounded like the only one who had a clue. I don’t think the Psychiatrist will blame you because your son would not take his meds. Psychiatrists are totally used to this problem.
Hang in their Lady. I’ve got to go, and so do you. You and your son are in my prayers.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 10:17am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Hang in THERE! Sheesh – will I ever learn to spell?
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 10:19am
S O S says:
Most dominance contests, even in other mammals are won by bluff and intimidation as opposed to physical aggression.
Boy is that true. IMO, the ‘Lovefraud sociopath’ primarily fights with psychological weapons. Subliminal suggestion, especially the kind that’s geared toward the victims imagination to make S appear bigger and victim feel smaller, is their favorite.
I’m thinking of an S who everybody in that group hated, feared, or was wary of – who still kept people in check by cleverly implying that he had lots of friends and allies outside of that particular environment, while his victims had none. The truth should have been obvious – his only real friends were his current tools and henchmen.
I saw another S convince a normal who’d grown sick of that particular S, that he would win any physical encounter, even though it was obvious to me the normal guy was vastly superior, physically.
And another time I saw an exasperated kid punch the S’s innocent sycophant, when all the abuse came from the S (who was physically smaller). The kid had been too afraid to confront the actual source of his troubles. Normals are often more afraid of the imagined reality than the actual reality itself.
Also, the top two attitudes I’ve discerned that sociopaths feel about their prey:
1. They’re stupid.
2. They’re weak.
Much of their confidence may also come from an ability to do do more of whatever it takes, moral or not, than normals.
The advantage we have here is that intelligent use of genuine achievement, knowledge, skills and accomplishment… should be able to beat these ‘artifacts of the dominance drive’ (their B^llsh!t) almost every time.
==============
Student Of Sociopathy
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 2:29pm
mrniceguy says:
Right on Mr. Becker:
“This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality.”
I regard myself just like you describe (and have the documentation to back it up), and I believe this magnified the trauma of being taken away from myself. This is because being like you describe is what is at my core personality, and “loosing” the core personality is the ultimate loss and extremely anxiety provoking.
It has been a while since I posted. I think this is a sign of healing. I can totally relate to what other people here have mentioned about being “reborn”. In fact, a much more confident and prideful person came out of it. Gone is the naive person, out came a person with a totally new awareness about humanity, ready to protect oneself and his loved ones against these human predators.
Because “they” lack the most evolved parts in humanity (love, empathy, guilt, remorse), I am now prone to regard these people as a “sub” species of humanity.
It’s weird that we don’t learn about this in school. It should be one of life’s most important lessons (and it is).
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 3:02pm
Stargazer says:
Reading this article, I am remembering the killer comination my ex S had of great self confidence but also a humble, self-effacing way about him too. It was that killer combination that drew me to him like a moth to a flame. I think they are also so confident because they have gotten what they want so many times that they know they can get it again. And they know just who to turn to and how to get it. It’s a formula for them. All players have it.
I am laughing now, a year after I first met the S, remembering how he went on an on about how great he was in bed (before we did the deed). It was almost comical at the time, but also a little exciting for someone (me) who’d been celibate for a year or two. Then to find out a few months later he was SIMULTANEOUSLY pretending to the army to have such a severe disability that he couldn’t perform at all in bed!!! LOL It’s too bad he has such an aversion to any form of work. He would be been an outstanding career actor.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 3:30pm
witsend says:
This is a day of decisions….I took Elizabeths advice pretty strongly as it felt like it was right on to what my gut was saying.
My son spent and hour 1 1/2 with the school counscelor after the melt down with his first class of the day teacher. I had many calls from the school, the initial teacher, the principal and the counscelor.
I called the treatment center “hotline” number as I am never ABLE to talk to anyone through the direct number….Always have to WAIT for call backs. His doctor was in a metting and was unavailable until 2 oclock. So I asked to speak to someone ELSE. She told me that when a 16 year old refuses outpatient treatment, (his meds) and will refuse to go with me to take him to a hospital the only option I have is a court order. To file papers to have a judge make the decision.
Soooooo I prayed the whole drive to the courthouse for God to OPEN some doors here…Please OPEN a door, and I prayed for a sign to know that I was doing the right thing.
This is a HUGE decision. Once I sign these papers it is ALL up to one man, the judge. I have already become the “enemy” in my sons eyes. I have lost his trust by just taking him for “help” that he “doesn’t” need. So in many ways I have alienated myself from my son althought that is NOT my intent.
By putting this in the courts hands I am basically saying….He is not taking care of himself, or even recognizing the NEED, and I am unable to take care of him in an outpatient setting. So I am pretty much in my “humble” opinion giving up my rights as a parent and putting those rights in a judges hands…
Long story short…Once I arrived at the courthouse in the town I couldn’t figure out the way to get there because of the major construction…..A sign from God?? Or just another CLOSED door? I finally got there and they told me I had to go to a completely different courthouse as this courthouse doesn’t handle this. A sign, or another closed door?
I can’t even read the signs anymore as this point (EVEN street signs ) as I am reduced to tears driving home as I will not be able to make it to this courthouse UNTIL Monday as time will not allow as the courthouse closes at 5.
MATT
Can you tell me how such a court order works? I was wanting information even about how the process works and the ladys did not know?
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 4:55pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Witsend,
Your son needs you to do whatever it takes. You have all the rights as his parent in your hands and it isnt enough right now to get him the help he needs…so in order to advocate for and save your sons LIFE, you must do what you feel is best.
There was a time I had to sign papers and commit my mother to a mental institution. I remember being next to my sister with my grandparents and telling them my heart just fell out of me. I thought I was betraying her or losing her forever…but really I was allowing her the opportunity to get the help she couldnt see with her own eyes, her own spirit, that she needed it.
If you believe your sons life or future is in danger, then with the support of teachers, principals, family, friends, the judge will see this. If you are already the enemy in your sons eyes, what do you have to lose? What do you have to gain by getting him help through a court order.
Im sorry you had such a horrifying day, and that your sons day was so terribly emotional too. I hope this ordeal ends for you on Monday, in that he can get whatever help is made available to you.
You are a dedicated mom, your son is lucky to have you. One day hopefully he will be able to look back and see that you did everything you could to get him the help he needed.
I might suggest you make NO MENTION to him of the possibility of a court order. Or a judge deciding what needs to be done. I think the less he knows regarding the “intervention” plan the better.
I think and hope and pray that Monday will be the day your son begins his journey to treatment. God bless you and good luck. We all are here for you.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 5:29pm
Stargazer says:
Witsend,
Most teenagers regard their parents as the enemy no matter what you do. I appreciate the tough situation you are in, and I applaud you for making a difficult decision. Sounds like this could be a positive step for both of you, and I wouldn’t take his lack of cooperation as a sign that it won’t work.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 5:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
((((((hugs)))))) I think your decision to seek inpatient treatment is a wise one. What other option do you have?
As far as alienating him by insisting that he get treatment, again, what other choice do you have?
I would call again to the HOT line and tell them that you think your son is a danger to himself and.or to you, and that you want a 72 hour hold on him. This will be done over the weekend, and he can be held for up to 72 hours, taken there by the sheriff/police and kept there until the court opens.
Stay on here this weekend, but I agree do not let him know what you are up to so that he will not bolt. ((((hugs))))) and all my prayers! Love Oxy
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 7:21pm
Wini says:
Hi Oxy, haven’t chatted with you in a while. How’s the garden coming? I’m planting the tomatoes and veggies in a cut off gallon of milk container and hanging them from the fence … aka cheap way of doing the hanging planters (LOL).
Hope everything is well with you.
Peace.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 7:29pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Wini,
I put in raised beds, one for annuals (tomatoes, squash, etc) and one for perennial herbs, garlic, mint, sage, etc. and am collecting salvaged materials to build a green house and hot beds for this winter for various greens etc. then to start plants in next spring. I put in some of the “upside down” tomatoes too, I had some old cast iron pots and they had holes in the bottom, so I hung them with the tomato plants hanging out the bottom. Give it a try.
Cleaned out the goat’s stall the other day and used the shavings and manure for mulch in the raised beds. Have 24 tomato plants which should be enough for some picante….keeping busy here, love the spring.
The nice thing is that now the “road to healing” is all about ME and doing things that I enjoy not focusing on the left over pain…just peace and joy here now! Calm and serenity. Couldn’t be better. (((hugs))))) and always prayer for every one on LF’s peace.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:00pm
Wini says:
Oxy, send up some of that manure to me. (LOL).
Did I tell you the story about when I was married … how I thought I had a green thumb? I lived in the country, where each back yard off of main street USA had acres and acres of property behind it (owned by the then old timers … aka farmers).
Long story short. Anything I planted, grew and grew and grew. It was incredible. I remember receiving a bridal veil planter for a wedding gift. It was just a starter plant in a potted planter. Well, I took it outside and placed it on one of the hooks on my front porch (we lived in a 3 story Victorian house). By the end of the summer, that little potted plant that was hanging on a hook on my front porch was over 30 ft long. I was walking around telling everyone that I was a chip off my mother’s side of the family (also grew up in the country).
Plants that friends had for years that were stunted … they’d eventually give to me and those plants thrived upon what I thought was my love and care and green thumb.
Then came my divorce. I moved back to the outter city … eventually got my own apartment. Within a year, all my plants died. I cried to my mother, something is wrong with me due to this divorce, I’m killing off all my plants.
My mother laughed and said “honey, I’m so proud of you thinking you were this country girl and inherited the country green thumb from my side of the family … but, I’ll tell you, when you live in the country the manure is all over the place and is airborne … and everyone living in the country has a green thumb.
True Story (LOL).
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 9:16pm
Matt says:
witsend:
Usually to get an order for involuntary commitment you need a psychiatrist to agree that the person has a risk to himself or to others. If your son is posing a risk to you or himself, you can call the police in to grab him and drag him to the psych ward, and then the psychiatrist’s can get the order.
At this point his psychiatrist should see the need for an involuntary hospitalization, since based on his statement to the teacher, it seems to me that he is dangerously close to posing a risk to himself.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 10:14pm
OxDrover says:
Good advice, Matt,
The way it works here in AR is that the cops will come and get him at the mother’s request and usually take him to the ER where he will be interviewed by the ON CALL PSYCH evaluator, then moved (if thought reasonable) up to the psych ward, then the on call psych doc will see him in the morning, and decide whether to keep him for a 72 hour hold, and/or get a committment on monday.
With a KID the cops are usually cooperative with the parents, and he will at least get an over night stay, especially if he is already seeing a psych MD and is NOT complying with medications etc. Especially with the school backing up the parent, and the mom being a single parent, etc. I would think she would get the help she needs. My guess is too, that the son will “show out” about the time the cops show up in a rage, which will encourage the cops to take him to the ER.
Wini, don’t you know I sling plenty of BS besides the skillet! LOL That’s why my plants grow so well.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 10:42pm
witsend says:
My thing is I don’t see the point of a 72 hour or 48 hour stay and then they release him to me more ANGRY then he was when he went into the hospital. Unless he would go from one facility to the next.
And when I called the hospital ER the nurse there told me they would NOT keep him longer than 48-72 hours. And if his personal psyciatrist (who is not affiliated) with this hospital did NOT order to have him transfered to a facility if the hospital themselves DID see fit to tranfer him somewhere it would be a state mental hospital. NOT an adolecent facility.
I would rather see him in an adolecent facility.
I was expecting the psyciatrist to call me after his meeting. However the woman who called me (psyciatrist nurse ?) was the one who informed me about a court order and said that would be what the doctor will suggest under the circumstance if I can’t get my son to go willingly.
The teacher recanted somewhat of what he said to me in the first phone call in the SECOND phone call. He now says that he can’t remember my sns exact words but that he wasn’t sure if he did say my MOM can’t help me. He said it was more something like the teacher can’t help/make him, the school can’t help/make him and he was the only one who could help himself. Then he said he would NOT come to the detention.
The SCHOOL counscelor was contacted instead of the principal by the teacher.
The school counscelor would definately agree that my son has signs of depression. She talked to him long enough to see that although he is ADAMENT that he is not depressed, he said alot of things that she picked up on as being very inconsistent. What he says and what he does are two different things. And she also picked up on the anger.
She has talked to him before but never to the extent she had today.
As I see it if he is going to be hospitalized it needs to be for a long enough time for medication and therapy to work.
There have been so many things that have gone “wrong” that this next step it is important that something go “right” this time. If there is going to be an intevention, regardless of who else is involved, police, court order, doctors…..It is important that it goes from start to finish and not that he just walks away as he did in the past. This is NOt the first intervention. My son walked out of the last one and the couscelor allowed him to do it. I feel he should have called the police.
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Friday, 24 April 2009 @ 11:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
A 72 hour “hold” is the amount of time BEFORE THEY GET A COURT ORDER that they can legally hold him. It does NOT mean that they will let him out in 72 hours. Usually this is what proceeds the court order. Becuse of the US Constitution they can’t hold anyone in jail or anywhere for any reason any longer than 72 hours without a judge’s order.
So a “hold” like this is that they take him by force if necessary to a psych facility because he is a “danger to himself or others” (and that interpretation must be made by an MD) THEN the judge signs the order on the “opinion” of the physician and then they HOLD HIM TIL HE IS “BETTER”—of course at some time he will get out, but hopefully they will keep him 30-60 days and/or place him in a “theraputic” environment with treatment and medication for long enough to calm him down and get him taking medication he might need etc.
I am not saying he may not come out mad at you, because he may…but at this point, if you cannot control him, the school cannot control him….WHAT OTHER CHOICE DO YOU HAVE? If he is NOT a Psychopath and say has, Bi-polar or depression, maybe the treatment in that period of time will settle him down where you can reason with him, the school can reason with him etc. and that he will feel better enough that he WILL comply with medication.
If he is a psychopath (even though he can’t be LABELED as such until he is 18) NOTHING YOU DO EITHER WAY IS GOING TO HELP. One of the “qualifications” of a Psychopath is that they had problems BEFORE they were 18…which he obviously does, but that does NOT mean he will continue them “forever” BUT it also COULD mean these are the early signs of P-ism.
I agree with your assessment of the last intervention, BUT, there are also counselors that DO make mistakes in letting people walk out, and there are also some legal safeguards to keep counselors from “holding” people against their wills.
The “danger to self or others” is a thing that is an INTERPRETATION….and some people interpret it to mean, THIS SECOND….I’ve had PROFESSIONAL problems in dealing with people IN VARIOUS AGENCIES who unless they WITNESSED the person ACTIVELY THIS SECOND being threatening harm to self or others, would let the person walk even though in 15 minutes the person WAS actively threatening harm to self or others….it is a really fine hair that they split.
The point of it all to me is that you can either do something or nothing….and something gives you a chance, and I feel that doing nothing doesn’t give you a chance or your son a chance. He isn’t cooperating with anyone (you, therapy or school) at this point, so if you do something and it doesn’t work you haven’t “lost” anything, but if you do nothing, I don’t see a chance in hell of continued doing NOTHING WORKING.
So the ball is in your park at this point. So it is sort of a “shoot, Luke, or put down the ball” situation.
Just my opinion, and worth what you “paid” for it—it was free. (((hugs)))))
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 3:08pm
witsend says:
Hi Oxy…
Sorry maybe I didn’t clarify that the 48-72 hour stay was at a REGULAR hospital…such as if I just took him to the Emergency Room. I called the emergency room once before when I thought about bringing him. If taken to the ER they would only keep him for 48-72 hours and then he would be released back to ME, UNLESS his doctor had him transfered or a court order etc.
He isn’t willing to go to a treatment center or hospital though, so that is why they told me about the court order at the facility he goes for to see the counscelor. If I wanted him to go for “inpatient” and he refuses to go I GUESS if there is a court order, THEY will pick him up and take him if I can’t get him there??? THAT is how I understood it?
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 3:44pm
Matt says:
witsend:
The reason that the initial stay is 48-72 hours is because back in the dark old days, anyone — police, family, whomever, could someone slammed into a psychiatric hospital for years on end — a definite violation of one’s civili liberties.
This rule is designed for your son’s own protection — as perverse as that may seem at the moment — to make sure that the doctors come up with a firm diagnosis and move for an order of involuntary commitment.
The reality of an involuntary commitment is that the police, or ambulance attendants or whomever handles it in your jurisdiction will give your son the option of admitting himself voluntarily.
If he doesn’t, since you have already submitted evidence that he is a risk to himself or others, the autorities will hospitalize him for the 48-72 hour holding period. If your son moves to discharge himself, the doctors have an legal obligation to present evidence to the court why an involuntary commitment is in your son’s best interests.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 4:01pm
alohatraveler says:
Great article!
I see myself in “self questioning, self doubting individual.” This describes me perfectly when I crossed paths with the Bad Man.
Since then, I have become more sure of myself.. very slowly. Circumstances in my life leading up to Bad Man made me ripe for the picking. My career had been failing.. BIG TIME… I didn’t really even have a career then… just a broken heart and an unemployment check. I had been struggling for years when I decided to risk it all and move to Maui for a fresh start. At that moment, I looked courageous and confident but my “confidence” was rooted in nothing.
Thankfully, I have fought my way back from those days and though I stand on shakey knees sometimes, I know I am far better off now than I was back in the Bad Man days.
Aloha
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 4:05pm
Matt says:
alohatraveler:
Good to hear from you and good to hear that things are on the up and up.
To quote FDR “Better to die on your feet than survive on your knees.” The knees may be shaky, but at least we’re learning how to stand our ground and protect ourselves.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 4:14pm
witsend says:
I brought my son to a suicide intervention when I THOUGHT he might be suicidal (several weeks ago) and STATED up front to the counscelor what I SAW and WHY I thought this. I stated the EXACT same things to the ER nurse & the suicide hotline 1-800 #. Both the nurse and the suicide hotline person thought exactly as I did. That he needed to be seen ASAP. I set up the intervention & took him out of school that same day.
When I brought him to the counscelor he ASKED HIM if he was going to hurt himself. My son said , no. Then counscelor turned to me to ask me why I brought him. I told him the reasons, my son got angry and walked out of the session.
I felt that the police should have been called right then by the counscelor as I had to run out of the building after my son.
But the counscelor said that he did NOT agree with me that my son was suicidal. Because he had stated that he wasn’t.
I’m sorry but if everyone that was suicidal TOLD someone straight up what their “plans” were, there would be LESS COMPLETED suicides in the world. So without anyone of us being God and being able to see the future all we can do is see signs if there are any being presented. I saw enough signs at the time to be concerned.
If my son has to STATE UPFRONT to these people that he is suicidal that isn’t going to happen. My son will not even admit that he is depressed or that he has ADHD.
When this intervention happened there were some “signs” that were troubling to me AND he had posted on HIS my space that he was depressed and that “no one cared”….
HE DIDN’T TELL ME (or the counscelor) he was depressed or that NO ONE cared, HE TOLD his peers. TO me that was speaking VOLUMES. As like most kids his age if he is presenting a side of himself to his peers it would be the “cool” side NOT this kind of thing….
NOW right at this point I can’t HONESTLY say that he IS suicidal. The meds DID seem to help for the time he took them. And things were not as bad as they were for those few weeks he was on them, because his moods were not as INTENSE as the weeks BEFORE he took them.
All I can say is that he IS STILL depressed. And he is refusing his meds. He has not as yet been physically violent although the verbal abuse is there. And he is still having problems at school. If that is “enough” to get a court order along with the doctors report, then I have a leg to stand on…..If it isn’t?
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 4:34pm
Wini says:
Witsend, I haven’t been reading the blog for a while, so I admit I haven’t read your story. If your son is over 18, he is an adult, therefore he was allowed to walk out of the doctor’s office because he didn’t schedule the appointment.
You have one option if your son is over 18. That being someone in your family becomes his legal guardian. It’s a legal process in court. Your son is in the court room as well as any family members that want to be there. The judge reviews the paperwork that you son has notarized, court ordering another as his legal guardian. Everyone is in agreement and it’s a win/win for everyone involved.
Good luck.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 4:50pm
witsend says:
Wini
He is only 16 years old.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 5:25pm
witsend says:
I was actualy told by a helth care professional that his counscelor actually had put himself out on a limb (so to speak) by letting him go…If something DID happen.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 5:27pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
I hear your frustration, dear!!! ((((hugs))))) and yes, that counselor did put himself out on a limb, but that was what I was trying to tell you, sometimes SOME “professionals” think that they have to see the person with a knife in their hand sawing at their wrists before they will “believe” what is going on!
I know when my son was acting out, got arrested at age 17 and we went to court ordered counseling he convinced the counselor that HE WAS AN ABUSED KID….yea, right!
Because I “abused” him, he stole my car out of my yard to drive to a house to rob it and use MY CAR to haul the loot away from the crime, and I was responsible because I abused the poor baby! I CALLED THE COPS, look what a miserable abusive parent I was.
I would have called the cops on your kid, so why is it abuse if I call the cops on MY kid for being a thief?
This whole mess you are in for trying to HELP YOUR SON, is so frustrating!!! I have been on the same end of the stick you are on, and I am frustrated FOR you, because you are doing everything you can and THE SYSTEM is kicking your feet out from under you while you yell “May Day, May Day, my son is drowning” and instead of offering you a rescue party, they are seemingly sending you an anchor to swim with as if you weren’t having enough trouble trying to keep your son afloat!
This is the kind of thing that makes people want to “go postal” on the system! God bless you my dear, and I will keep you and your son in my prayers (((((hugs)))))
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 5:56pm
witsend says:
Oxy…..
I know that you have walked in “these” shoes….
I guess what I find to be so frigging frustrating is that this counscelor sees the “scum” court APPOINTED clients ALL DAY long….That really IS MOSTLY where the drug addicts, and people who are ALREADY in trouble with the law go in this COUNTY if court ORDERED.
And when ever I had asked about my sons problems he ALWAYS replies something to the order of…..WELL HE HASN’T (fill in the blank) robbed a bank yet. Or something equally IGNORANT (my opinion).
IS IT NECESSARY to wait for this to happen? In this guys world evidently it is.
Does he need to have the gun in his hand, to be suicidal? (I don’t own a gun, just my frustrated example)
He said that my son wasn’t depressed but the psyciatrist DID say he was depressed…..
I mean this guy has an arrogance about him that is getting me pretty pi**ed at this point.
One day I was so aggrivated with him I got “sarcastic” and asked him if he, himself ever PARENTED a 16 year old before?? (knowing full well his kid was about 8-10 yrs old). I wanted to know if he is going to wait until HIS kid is arrested before he sees a RED FLAG??? DUH….
And YES, I wanted to change my sons counscelor after the suicide intervention, and after “seeing” how this guy “deals” with his patients. However, I felt at the time that if I did request a change, my son would refuse to continue to go. I thought at the time him seeing this guy was better than NOT seeing anyone. And he had at least FINALLY put in the referal AFTER the “gone bad” intervention to get to see the psyciatrist. SO I didn’t want to screw that up.
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 6:44pm
kate_592 says:
Alohatraveler
‘I looked courageous and confident but my “confidence” was rooted in nothing.’
How true that is for a lot of us I am sure. Congratulations for rebuilding your life!
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Sunday, 26 April 2009 @ 7:22pm
amanwhocares says:
Only yesterday was I in the company of a sociopath, one who is passive aggressive, and one who is an enabler. When they got going I had to leave. I tolerated the racial remarks and the making of a hangman’s noose where they were going to hang me. But when the passive aggressive showed up it was ‘on’.
Isnt it great how they show their love?
And I must continue to ask myself about the level of my handicap, the level of my own neediness, that has me among such “people” and situations in the first place.
And yes everyone in the hood earlier yesterday before he showed up, talks about how the first one, the sociopath, gets all the women. Just like my father… Such charmers. What does that say about so many women?
Lately and occasionally I think about women and men. I think about how we are raising them today and while I grew up. Little girls are squirreled away inside the house, little boys too, away from adults. Then as they get older the boys group up and the girls group up separately. Yet we are told to involve ourselves with children…but how and where? Meanwhile the earth and the seas and the forests, you get the picture continue to be plundered in part because we are disconnected from earthly processes and each other, especially via gender. Perhaps this has something to do with the gullibility of women for sociopaths as an example here. Of course, I have not studied far into this and this is little more than a theory.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 8:04am
ThePeregrine says:
People have written entire books that did not contain as much truth as your first paragraph, Steve. Thanks also for clarifying that women can be very capable sociopaths, too.
If anyone still does not understand how we get sucked in to the alternate universe of a sociopath, all they need to do is read and re-read that first paragraph and study its implications.
Well done!
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 9:28am
redheeler says:
This article is exactly what I needed to read this morning. I had dinner with a man 2 days ago in this little town we both live in. I did not know him before this. Retired, 40 year veteran of the police force. Every word in your article describes him. Every word. I do not know this man and his familiarity with me was sick He is a monster control freak. It didn’t take much to spot that. He interjected just enough “kind understanding” in an attempt to disarm me. Didn’t work. He said, after I would not budge from my personal convictions, approach to life & lifestyle, “I don’t even know why I bother talking to you. Yes I do- its only because I adore you so much”. And chuckled at what he thought was cute humor. I looked at him and thought OMG-he’s a sociopath! I shivered at the madness before me. Wasn’t afraid of him doing physical harm. I was seeing him in my mind’s eye licking his chops at the mental/emotional destruction and super control he had planned for me. A ferocious mind game, I-intend-to-win-at-all-costs, player. It was a very disturbing encounter. Its been a long time since I’ve had anything like this happen. I will have no contact with this person, not matter what. Thank God for lovefraud. I read all the articles and go back do “refresher” courses regularly. This site has educated me and has been a part of my becoming a strong woman.
My heartfelt thanks to everyone who contributes-
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 11:03am
christie lee says:
The article about the self confidence of the psychopath really hit home for me. “He” used to tell me that I talked in my sleep and appeared to be having erotic encounters with the men in my past, and he was explicit in the details. I told him that I did not believe him, that he must be mistaken about what he had heard. His response was to become defiant and angry, saying why on earth would I make that up, why would I lie? Well, I know now that it was an effort to make me feel small, as if he was the victim. About a week before he left me in a motel in Montana, penniless and ill, I tested his perception of my “dreams” and said the word “run” as I lay awake next to him. Well, sure enough, he told me the next day that I had once again been talking in my sleep, and “who the hell is Ron?” He said that I was moaning with pleasure and He was getting sick and tired of having to deal with me lusting after other men. Before I did this test, I was unsure of what my dreams looked like from the outside in, and I had wondered if I just may be doing this, but my little test put to rest the feelings of inadequacy he was trying to instill in me. I find it utterly fascinating that each and every article I read here at Love Fraud speaks in someway to the nature of my “very own psychopath” As a side note, he told everyone he had cancer as well, everyone but me that is. He needed money for the surgery, and swindled thousands of dollars from people for the treatments. The last time I saw him was February 10, but my fear is that I have not seen the last of this man….Can anyone tell me what the chances are of him returning, or has he moved on to his next victim, never to look back? I am afraid.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 12:07pm
Matt says:
christie lee:
Welcome. You have found the right place for healing from a sociopath.
Robert Hare, the author of “Without Conscience”, and an expert of psychopathy/sociopathy, says that once a sociopath has exhausted a victim as a source of supply, the sociopath moves on to a new victim and doesn’t look back. Thing is, if one of these creatures thinks there’s an opening, he’ll return to an old source of supply (victim) if he thinks there’s anything left to bleed from you.
That said, while I never want to set eyes on S again, I”ve been having this wierd vibe that I”m about to cross paths with him. Could be it’s my survival instinct kicking in and reminding me of how important NC (no contact) is.
As for the cancer ploy, it’s part of the pity play they all run. If people have wised up to him and there’s an angry mob out there looking for him, I suspect he’s moved onto new, safer, hunting grounds.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 12:14pm
christie lee says:
To Matt, Yes, I hear tell that there are people hunting him down and do not want to see him caught by the police, they would rather administer their own form of justice. The bad part about this is that these same people still believe that I know where he is at, and that he and I are working together. I have cooperated fully with the authorities, but explaining this to these people has not swayed them for these ridiculous notions. It is a lose-lose situation and I feel trapped in my own home, another reason that my fear rules my life. Thank you for your input, Matt….I am grateful to you
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 12:26pm
kathiwithak says:
I enjoyed reading this article and interpreted the ending paragraph as a compliment!
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 12:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kathi and Christie Lee,
Glad you both found your way to LF—welcome—and hang around a while, there is more good information here and more support than any other place I have found! It is a healing community! God bless you both!
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 12:56pm
jeanninelibutti says:
My comment is for Steve Becker (or really anyone else that can offer suggestions). Mr. Becker, would you be able to advise how to encourage the NJ Family Court System to REALLY, TRULY look at and evaluate my exhusband. He has never been formally diagnosed as a sociopath but I am 200% positive that he is, in fact, a sociopath. I know it is very difficult to diagnose someone and that (often) the condition goes undiagnosed (all the while destroying the lives of children, family members & friends). I am divorced almost 10 years. My ex is on his 3rd divorce. He has destroyed the lives of 3 wives and 6 children (4 of which are his biologically). Our 2 children are now 14 & 18 & want nothing to do with him any more. The family court judge has interviewed both my children (my daughter twice). Both kids tell stories of his violent tantrums, assaults on his 3rd wife & emotional abuse on everyone during their time w/him, yet the judge still insists that my daughter MUST have visitation w/ him. In Sept 08 my ex succeeded in convincing the judge that he was very ill & couldn’t work but loved & desperately wanted to see his children. My child support was then reduced from $238 per week to $42 per week (for 2 kids). That would be $196 per week that I am now short in my monthly income. I was then ordered to take my daughter for “reunification theraphy” & (due to his financial hardship) I HAVE to PAY FOR IT MYSELF. 2 weeks later I was laid off for the 2nd time in less than 2 years. I am jobless & almost penniless. I have no $$$ for a lawyer. I have NOT taken my daughter for any theraphy sessions because 1) I am broke! & 2) My daughter does not want to see her father at all. She is a well adjusted, happy-go-lucky young teenager (how often do we hear that?). She wants NO FURTHER CONTACT and truly deserves it. I desperately need the money but don’t want to rock the boat. Can you suggest anyone/any qualified doctor who has the ability to totally see thru the manipulative lies that my ex has been soooo successful in convincing the family court judge of. I am at the end of my rope emotionally & financially. I have exhausted my unemployment and my 401K and what little savings I have to keep myself from drowning in bills and keep food on the table…all the while he is taking my childs money to drink and entertain himself. The NJ Family Courts System seems to only honor needs and demands of the criminal and completely ignore the childs wishes and best interest. I thought that his abuse would stop when I divorced him but it has only gotten worse and (at the same time) I am also being abused by the NJ Family Court System. I truly appreciate any/all suggestions you can provide. I am sorry for rambling. Thank you in advance, JeannineLibutti.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 2:15pm
pb says:
WHOA! Good one!
I had planted my Iris’ in a retaining wall under the maple when it had no leaves. Once the tree sprouted its’ foliage, my Iris bulbs were rotting in the shade.
So, I had done some research. I dug them up, cut off the rotten bits, dried the bulbs for a day and intended to re-plant them.
“I have to move my Iris bulbs and I may have to move a couple of other plants”
N, knowing that gardening was a particular pleasure/talent of mine, snorted at me, “I don’t want you to move the plants!”
“Well, they’re going to die where they are and if it means they’ll live, then I’ll move them. What’s the big deal?”
“Just put the plants in the ground and leave them.”
I told him that they will be fine once I get them back in the ground, in a sunnier location.
“Are you SURE?” he appeared incredulous – sneering even.
“Yes” I said, surprised. “As a matter of fact, I am. I got on the computer, researched the problem, and this is what you do to save them.”
He didn’t like that one bit and was furious. “I don’t want to talk about it anymore. Enough! Put the plants in the ground and leave them where they are! END OF CONVERSATION!”
I couldn’t believe how important it was for him to try to ruin something I enjoyed. Looking back I realize that it was something he couldn’t control; that was the problem…Unlike telling me regularly that it was “his” house and that I needed to go spend the night somewhere else; gardening was something that made me happy without his involvement. The garden was lovely too. He couldn’t stand it, and failed at making me doubt myself. Even worse, he failed at making himself feel superior.
His conviction didn’t hold for him this time.
Anyways. The conversation had moved on. All of a sudden he starts up about the plants again. He had had too much to drink and was getting nasty.
“You know” He snarled, “That yellow one you planted? It’s a SHADE plant and you’re going to kill it where you planted it!” He went on about a couple of other plants that came without ANY information. We didn’t even know what they were; so how would HE know if I had put them in a good spot or not?
“What the hell happened to `End of conversation’?” I asked. It was my turn to be incredulous. “I don’t want to argue about the plants. If they’re not happy where they are, then I’ll move them – no biggie.”
His lips thinned and paled – a sure sign of an argument, I had learned…I believe that was the same night where he later ended up banging his fists on the counter raging at me, “Yes! It IS all about me!” (Obviously I’d said something to the contrary – LOL).
The next day I dug into the recycling and pulled the tag for the yellow one, “Prefers FULL SUN to part shade.”
When I showed it to him he just looked at it as if it were nothing, saying, “Oh yeah”.
To him, that was yesterday – it’s done, already forgotten, history…get over it.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 2:48pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jeannine,
I am so sorry you are going through this horrible injustice. The ONLY thing I can suggest is that you get and read “The Legal Abuse syndrome” It won’t change the way the courts are screwing you and enabling your X, but it will give you osome validation and some ideas for survival. It is a WONDERFUL BOOK….talking about not only getting screwed by the Ps but by the “in-Justice” system as well.
When we get screwed by the Ps and turn to the people and systems that are SUPPOSED to protect us, and they too screw us, but GOOD, the only thing we can change is HOW WE THINK ABOUT IT ALL. We are powerless to change the system, but we can change our reaction to it. ((((hugs))))) and God bless you and your daughter and my prayers are for your peace.
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Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 3:43pm
ErinBrockovich says:
My S always had a self impossed “statute of limitations” on his lies.
It went as far as……as soon as the ‘deed’ was done, the statute was up. This is how he saw things….
I remember confronting him on something I had found hidden….his response was….why are you so upset, that was years ago.
He never could understand why I was so hurt NOW, even though I had just been made aware of the deceit.
I look at all the phrases I would use on him….like,
“Your an island in this world”
Now I understand just how spot on I was!!!
CHristie Lee: My S would do the same. I talked in my sleep. I knew I didn’t, but you definately question yourself…..that’s the design. He told me the same things….lusting after another man etc… he forgot that I was a virgin when we met and I have never been with anyone else but him, so there were no other’s I pined over.
It’s the design for control over you and keep you in line. It works, we do question ourselves, each time.
Good for you on the test! I am mortified, being a survivor and my self being accused of faking C, that anyone would do that. I have caught myself saying “who would fake C, no one would ever do that”…..I have learned differently.
People will question you, just do the right thing, keep your character in place, and this will move through….the clock doesn’t stop ticking for any of us! It sounds as if he has exposed himself with the ‘fatal error’ S’s never feel they will make.
It is scary, but you are strong, your in the right place and moving in the right direction.
Keep your spirit up.
PB:
“To him, that was yesterday – it’s done, already forgotten, history…get over it.”
The statute of limitations law of the S!!!
I have 20K daffodills blooming at the moment! I send you a mind full of yellow daffodills, (all planted in the right place).
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 4:21pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Jeannine,
For what it’s worth to you….
I was told by a judge that at 14 the child could make their own decisions to walk away from the ‘visitation meeting locations”, as long as I did nothing to interfer with the visitation.
He said to make the meeting location safe and in public, and the child could choose to get there or not. It was up to my child to see the father if they so wished. I had no control over if they left and came home, never showed up, went to play practice etc….. I could not MAKE my child see the father. At 14 years old we can’t MAKE our kids do anything. Nor in this situation, would we scold them.
He will indeed take you back to court, but it sounds like your daughter has these wishes not to see her father….it’s not only your wish, but hers and it sounds as if she has explained that.
The key was, that I did nothing to interfere.
I hope it all works out for you and your kids. It’s heart wrenching indeed, along with costly.
Hang in there!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 @ 4:52pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
pb….flowers. Brings back a memory. About 22 years ago, now. We’d moved into a new house, and the next Spring I’d planted some flowers. My ex-tox began to complain I spent “too much time” taking care of them. I guess they weren’t about HER.
A while back, I found some pictures of my two middle daughters, now 24 and 26, standing in front of some dahlias I’d planted that Spring.
It was worth it.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 5:36am
ErinBrockovich says:
Jim:
Dahlias are beautiful….I am sure not near as beautiful as your two daughters though.
Well worth it indeed!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 5:41am
newlife08 says:
OK – here is one for the veterans to help me with!!!!
Why in God’s name would a man take his O/W to the same place he has vacationed with his wife and kids for years???
Back in 2006 when we were FIRST separated, N/S came to me and said that although we were not together, he still wanted the kids to have their vacation at the NJ shore. I was all for it – I know – smack me – but we had a very informal separation.
He was around us more then – than he was living at home.
Anyway, I am still plowing through paperwork and I find the day after he asked me to take the kids – he left with his O/W at the time (not the current one) and stayed at the same place we have taken the kids for 15 years!!!
HOW COULD HE DO THAT???
The owners know us – and our kids.
And then he shows up with his family weeks later???
Why is this bothering me so badly – again I feel like a ton of bricks has hit me.
I know so much now of what he has done – but this seems like even more of a violation because it involves my kids territory – not just me. But being with the skank next door now is a violation of our territory too.
Why am I crying ????? isn’t it just more of who he is?????
My stomach is sick to think he would take her there????
A million other places to go – how do you violate family memories????
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 12:35pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Newlife,
((((Hugs))))) The answer to your question is “because that is just what THEY DO” I know it doesn’t make any sense to you, or even to me, but it is asking like “why does a snake bite?” The answer is the same, “because that is just what they do.”
They have NO sentimental memories, because nothing means anything to them, NOTHING. Not you, or the kids, or the OW or the place….NOTHING!
You have sentemental memories and you have love, they DO NOT.
Yes, it IS just more of WHO AND WHAT HE IS. Why do you cry? Because you loved him. That love is dying and it is painful to you. That is why you cry. You have a caring heart, he doesn’t. He moves on to the next woman because he can’t love. He can’t care. Everything he does is about HIM.
I am so sorry tht you are in such pain, but it will pass….cry and cry…it will help. ((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 12:42pm
Matt says:
newlife08:
It doesn’t surprise me that he took the O/W to the same place he took his family. As devious and manipulative as these creatures are, they are, bizarrely, creatures of habit, and not overly original.
About 4 to 5 months ago, shortly after I started blogging on this site, somebody brought up this very topic. I was astonished at the number of bloggers who commented on the fact that their S had taken them on the same first date he had taken his other wives/women; taken them on identical vacations; run identical scams…you get the drift.
As for his violating family memories — you have figured out by now that nothing we normal humans cherish means a damn to an S. As a matter of fact, he probably got off on the fact that he thought he was pulling a fast one on you, and also putting the owner in a horrible position.
My advice? Turn this to constructive anger and nail him with it.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 12:42pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Newlife,
You are upset because you are a good soul. A decent being. A thoughtful caring person. You (and we) often find ourselves in shock because we cant believe they dont do or choose to act the way we instinctively do with others in our lives.
They do what they do – because thats who they are. They have no understanding of real and true feeling or valuing “family memories” — they are selfish souls – they are not hardwired or somewhere along the way lost the capacity to form deep loving long lasting relationships. They live in the moment, fulfil their skewed sense of reality and operate in a fly by night fashion. They live double lives…they turn on and off..they disassociate…they fantasize…they live according to their own rules…making them up as they go.. often feeling indestructable and so powerful that there isnt anything they cant do or get away with…they are pathological — they are just a different breed — and often it isnt until they are “caught” or start to fall apart or flee – that we finally become awakened to the truth about them. The truth is they are the lie. They are selfish. They steal. They hurt without even realizing their selfish consequences wll tear apart and rip out another persons sense of well being, security, trust, health… because the other person (us) believed they were like us, or rather like the person we thought they were or wanted them to be or who they represented themself to be. They dont know how to be honest and true and real …or even worse they choose not to be because its what they want to do or all they know to do.
Im so sorry for your pain and all of the hurtful things he has put you through. But you are free and are making/taking steps to be rid of him and getting on with your life. I will never ever forget what mine put me through – but I now know he did it all -because thats what he does and will continue to do with any partner/significant beings in his life…leave them feeling used and abused…because these people are often living without a conscience and the only thing we can do is get away and move forward with our conscience in tact learning and growing and meeting others on good moral pathes and being aware of the red flags and acting on them! My prayers and ((hugs)) to you!
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 12:55pm
newlife08 says:
You are all right – it Is really just more of the same basic behaviors.
Thanks – I will get stronger from this – I have to –
What is the saying???
What doesn’t kill you will make you stronger????
He really turned on the charm to get me to agree for the kids sake to even go – and then off he was with her the night day!!!
He must have gotten some high off of that one!!!!
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 1:29pm
christie lee says:
The word freedom has taken on a whole new meaning for me. It used to be about taking chances, stepping out into the world and breathing it all in. This is exactly what I was doing when “he” came into my life. My former life bears no resemblance to this new so-called freedom I have now. The phone rings and I jump, and I dream horrible nightmares about being killed, or watching “him” hurt the people I love. I do not know where he is physically, but he lives and breathes inside of me. I feel toxic, as if I have been administered some kind of poison. Slow acting and deadly. People look at me and ask what is wrong, folks who have no idea what has happened. I simply can’t retell the story to explain, so I shelter the pain, putting off my obvious mood to something less ominous, like my failed attempts at finding a job, or that I am coming down with something. It’s easier than trying to explain, yet everything in me wants to just break down and spill my guts over anyone who will listen. I question my ability to know the difference between good and evil. I no longer look for the good, and wonder what a person’s true motivations are. This is not freedom, this is hell. Logically, I know that this attitude will only darken my path, but I can’t help how I feel. How can I just “snap out of it” like some people have said, saying “it’s over, you need to get on with your life” The worst thing that I have been told is that I will find someone new, someone who will not hurt me. But what about what I will do to them? I hate this. I feel overwhelmed.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 2:16pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Christie Lee,
You are in a place I call “on hold” …its a place we all go through in the aftermath…its a place where we are taking it all in (what we went through) — its a place of confusion — its a place where not to much makes sense– and a whole hell of a lot HURTS — its the beginning of the process toward healing again..
Unfortunately we all must go through it and we feel alone and not heard. And nobody can say much to make us feel better. We have to go through all the emotional “chit” we were put through and now have to endure in the aftermath. We feel totally isolated and as though everything and everyone has new negative meaning for us.
In a way, everything and everyone will have new meaning for us. Including ourselves.Take some time to read some of the old articles here. I did and it helped me to see things more clearly. I eventually saw that as with everything in life …while I was “on hold” I had the choice to find my way out, stay there or go back. I wanted not only to find my way out, but to change (learn and grow) and get back to taking chances, stepping out into the world and breathing it all in again – but as a stronger wiser person.
For now you must go through the process and FEEL everything you are feeling and SHARE everything you are feeling. When you feel comfortable I encourage you to share your story, or whatever is on your mind. This is a safe place, a healing place. Opening up will help you move on from the “hold” youve arrived to in your life from your experiences with your ex and your past.
You are right your attitude can brighten or darken your path. But for now your attitude is justified and warranted. It only matters that you experience it share it and keep going to the next part of the process…you wont believe me right now…but I promise you there is such a thing as hell and BACK to healthy… your newfound freedom is down the road waiting …for each one of us..at our own pace…there is no hurry, but there is noway you will stay “on hold” forever …unless you choose to.
We have all had to readjust our ways of life, of thinking, of acting and reacting. Not because its a burden but because it protects us in ways we didnt do for ourselves prior to meeting a toxic person. Its something we were not equipped with and now as a result of our experience we have had to grow and learn about the fact that there is good and bad – with everything – including people – in the world.
Right now you need to go through what you are going through. And you also need to take care of yourself as best you can. Do little things, read much, share often as you like. I would be worried if you just “snapped out of it” – that wouldnt be a healthy thing to do – so you are someone who has feelings and cares and you are presently on hold…thats a good thing Christie Lee… take a deep breath, it gets better, it really does. One day at a time.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 3:07pm
christie lee says:
Thank you so very much, sometimes I wonder if I am the crazy one, but just knowing that there are people here who know what I am going through is an enormous comfort to me. I will try to be optimistic, even though I wonder how I allowed this to happen to me.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 3:26pm
learnthelesson says:
Christie Lee,
One of my first posts here was that I was scared I was the crazy one or that I ended up doing /acting/ being like him in an attempt to play the game or stay in it or figure it out. It is a crazy experience to say the least, but the point is that the difference is I sought out help, like you… I sought to find out what in the world I went through and how I allowed it to happen to me…he just goes on with his ways, making bad choices, using abusing and stealing and living in a crazy way. His choices are bad unhealthy debilating to others.
If we knew in the beginning what they were all about we would not have signed on…we would have turned them down….but they manipulate and lie and shove charisma and charm on us in the beginning…so its not that you allowed it to happen…its that you believed or trusted, thats okay to do. One of the things I use to do in my past was believe and trust up front – now i know to wait until they earn my trust. And now I always know to act on the red flags (deceit, weird feeling in pit of my stomach, strange requests, overly charming/charismatic, odd comments, uncomfortable feeling etc.)…
But that all comes with time and effort and learning and growing and rebuilding ourselves. For now you dont have to fake being optimistic you should just share what you are feeling and know its validated simply because its what you are feeling, realizing, understanding. LF is an amazing safe place to be, to share, to read…Glad you are here!
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 4:05pm
ellejay says:
I have not read anything before that so succinctly describes something I have never quite been able to explain or articulate, but has lurked in the recesses of my mind ever since I left the relationship that seemed to turn me inside out.
I could never explain to anyone who has not experienced it how simply believable the man was purely based upon his own supreme confidence in anything he said or did. He was, as explained here, incredibly intelligent, very witty, charming. I was drawn to his aura of confidence and saw it as an optimistic way of viewing things that I had always tended to be less confident about. Coupled with his intellect, his knowledge of things, and this air of “anything is possible” it took quite a long time for me to see the difference between someone confident, but considerate and mindful of other’s feelings, and someone who’s confidence trod all over other peoples boundaries and feelings. At times, he would relay a tale of some achievement, often at someone’s expense,in such an engaging manner, with such charm and wit, that it wasn’t until later, away from his magnetic charm, you would start to question it in your mind, something was missing, something didn’t feel right, and then it would hit you, no feeling. No consideration. No humility or shame or empathy. Just glee at his own success.
Or how he could turn that charm, that confidence on you like a laser and make you question your own values. Easy away from him. The incident, the behaviour, was not acceptable. It was wrong. He showed no ounce of consideration for the other person. He told a blatent lie – but under the steady gaze of arrogant confidence, total self belief, with a charming smile, and no remorse, it was hard to defend your position. How do you point out to someone that what they did was unreasonable/inappropriate/rude/or even cruel when they do not have the slightest concern, guilt, remorse, or care about anything at all apart from their own needs?
It appalls me now to think I was so ready to believe the words that tripped from his mouth with such slick ease. That I actually had admired and respected this man because I hadn’t realised that underneath all this charm, guile, wit and apparent optimism and confidence, there beat an empty shallow heart.
I thank you for this because it puts into words exactly how I felt, and it’s a relief to know this wasn’t just something that happened to me. That I was the idiot who fell for such a person and couldn’t see the underlying dangers of such a person.
For a long time after I used the word brainwashed. I had come away feeling the man had somehow brainwashed me but had no idea how. I had lost sight of all things I believed and valued under his relentless ability to persuade me I was wrong. This was a man who made having a secret life of sexual promiscuity and prowling the internet for it seem perfectly normal and ok behaviour, and that it was your problem if you couldn’t see that or deal with it.
Fortunately, I found enough self respect left in the cross wired mess in my head to up and run once I saw that bland, couldn’t care less gaze turned on my distress as if I was an irritating little grub. Haughty, smug, and totally uncaring. Even when he came back to his house to find it empty, he was “disappointed to find I could not endure”.
I am healthy now, it was 3 years ago I left, but boy it is still so reassuring to find something like this to validate something I could not put into words. Even now, it still staggers me sometimes when I remember some of the things he did, and somehow managed to fool me into thinking it was not him, it was me. His trivialising of my feelings. His contempt at my worries and concerns. His consistent lack of ownership, responsibility or ability to see how his behaviours impacted on other people. He lied. Blatently. Did he care if he got caught out? No. He would just glibly lie over the lie, and twist everything round so you ended up convinced there was something wrong with you for even questioning.
God, it’s so good to not have to deal with that anymore.
So thank you.
Ellejay.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 6:21pm
Matt says:
Ellejay:
“he was “disappointed to find I could not endure”.”
Isn’t it amazing that we were expected to “endure”, rather than “live?” Meanwhile, our Ss were out there “living their lives to the fullest” or I guess what passed for living in their minds.
Never again will I stay in a relationship that is a punishment. Never again will I “endure” when the relationship is nonexistent.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 7:14pm
Rosa says:
I wanted to marry mine. In fact, I made it my mission. He was my Prince Charming! His confidence was SEXY! I was totally sucked in.
He had me “hanging in there” for something that was never going to happen.
I was also very young and naive, and in my early 20’s (perfect target).
I don’t regret it, because he taught me the difference between a genuine person and a fake.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 8:04pm
endthepain says:
Please bear with me here….today was the 2nd day of my anxiety attacks..and I havent had them since I kicked the S out in Feb…I dont know what is going on..I have been feeling very good…however still waiting to find out if I am going to have to go back to court regarding child support for our 3 yr old…the S has filed some “review” claiming he cannot find any work..altho he voluntarily left his job in Oct of 2008..came here and thought I would support him…..anyway…he is also losing his house..well actually his wifes house…as he did not contribute to the payments..and it went on short sale and I believe when go into foreclosure pretty soon here…anyways….I have been very close to his mom since I met her..she has been with me thru all of his crap…he is now trying to convince her of his lies and I think she is believing him..he has used her for money and he is now trying to get her to believe whatever he says..ITS SO FRUSTRATING..as I know this is ultimately going to damage my relationship with her and with my son…I have been in NC and today thru legal advice I received..I had to call and let him know I changed my number so that it wont look like I am trying to keep his son from him…I hated that I had to do that…its so much easier knowing he cant contact me..he doesnt care about my son and it just opened up all that crap again….he didnt answer it went to voice mail..which is good but Im still mad I had to do that..any words of wisdom or advice going forward..I need to be strong here as we do have a child here and he seems deadfast on being a deadbeat dad and not paing and using the bad economy to as an excuse to not be responsible..its sickening!!
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:15pm
Rosa says:
EndthePain:
Wow! I FEEL your pain.
I am also currently involved in an ordeal where a small child is right in the middle of it all.
I will pray for you.
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:24pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Endthepain,
You are dealing with a very stressful situation…stress and fear of the unknown may be triggering your anxiety to the level you are experiencing. Im sorry you had to contact him as per legal advice. But if thats the case you did the right thing …and now have to find a way to regroup and find your strength to rid yourself of this bad person. Now you can start to dea with the reality of who he really is and may even need to remve yourself from reaching out to his mom. No contact with anyone he is associating with or poisoning…try to focus on yourself and your legal path you are taking and take care of yourelf as your son needs a healthy mommy!!!!!! Try things that are calming to you and surround yourself with whatever goodness you can Hang in there…
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:31pm
endthepain says:
well any input would be invaluable then…as Im starting to feel foggy again after seeing so clearly….I hadd posted last week however lost the responses from Brokovich, Oxy and Matt..(sorry) Im so worried about my son and just wanting to keep him protected any way possible! He is only 3 and hasnt known his dad except for about 4 months out of that time…during that time it was pure and utter chaos…it greatly affected him..and seeing what I went thru after kicking him out was horrible as all I wanted to do was end the pain…Ive been much better tho and feel better however this “custody” is hanging over my head..as I have said before there is no custody in place..he moved to another state..all he is comncerned about is lowering his support obligation…however I feel he ultimately will try and use my son and obtain some type of a custody only for a monetary purpose tho….he abandoned my son when he was born and has again..he doesnt want to work….and IK dont know if I should even open a custody case???
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:33pm
endthepain says:
ps..by the way..after coming back and forth between the 2 states for a months now he has stated he was going to stay in the other state ( as of 2 weeks ago) and not come back here….however now he is saying he will be coming back to the state in which I live…(crazy!!) must be nice to float around with no cares or responsibilities changing your mind as often as your underwear
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:36pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Endthepain,
Dont get caught up in the fog again…its a lure of sorts….to take you back down that painful path…regain your clarity and strength and self value again. This is a CRITICAL age for your sons growth and development…he needs security and to build his trust and sense of self with his caretaker…that is you…so you really need to be in the best place you can be..we cant determine the future and all the what ifs. but we certainly can be present and help define the present …by being in the moment with your son. Since there is no custody in place and he left for another state and he abandoned your son when he was born and then again and he has no job, Im not so sure you have a whole lot to fear..but Im not an attorney and think your attorney should be able to guide you with that. Maybe just have all your ducks in order…document everything…esp that on todays date you left a contact number and then document when you actually hear back from him, if at all. Be careful about discussing legal stuff with his mom or even involving yourself on any level. Try to focus more on you and your son….and seeing clearly again. You had a setback today, and tomorrow is a new day. You did the right thing and time will tell. Just focus on yourself and your son. Document your days and time spent with him in a journal…everyday… that will be good to have and to do to add some positivity into your world right now… and also a wonderful keepsake for your son…and something to take to court if ever need be!!
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Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 9:43pm
usedabused says:
EndthePain -
LTL is right, document, document, document. Every attempt to call.
The court wants to see that you are the parent wanting nurture the relationship with the other, wanting your son to have a father. So if you try to initiate a visit and he declines, it cuts against him bad. You never, ever want to look like you are trying to prevent contact between them.
Talk to you lawyer.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 12:29am
endthepain says:
I will do that and it makes sense. However how much do I try as I have been to encourage their relationship..when he is so unstable that after every time he spends time with my son there is total chaos..and again do I initiate the custody case?
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 8:16am
learnthelesson says:
Dear End the Pain,
I am not suggesting you go out of your way to seek him out for visiting your son or taking your son overnight. I am saying do whatever your lawyer suggests in terms of providing him with a contact number…point being you document that you “reached out” and gave him a number to be able to contact you/his son on April 29, 2009. Next you will document when he actually ATTEMPTED to contact his son. There is no need for you to seek out his seeing his son if you feel he is unstable and chaotic….but you have a right to seek out child support. As far as initiating custody care – that is decision only you can make with your family, friends and lawyers support. I do suggest you dont do anything out of anger or revenge but make the decision on what is best for your son and what you are willing to endure and go through on his behalf. The decision is based on your ability to stay the course and stick to the plan of full custody – because that is what you believe in your heart is best for you and for your son.
As far as encouraging a relationship with his father…it think its more like temporarily not discouraging it if the attempt is made to see his son, it can be done so as you see fit …with a custody agreement in place is always most helpful.
I dont envy the position you are in. It seems as though he is away right now in another state and keeps suggesting or threatening his return…but again that is yet to be seen. In the meantime you need to decide what YOU want for yourself and your son and take the steps necessary to ensure that outcome. In the meantime give your son all of your attention and love and warmth and your beautiful soul…he will thrive with you without the bad man around…and thats what you want to accomplish…a close wonderful bond with your son!!!
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 8:48am
Matt says:
endthepain:
You need to settle the custody issue — otherwise, S will continue to enter your life and then make pronouncements out of the blue such as his intention to take your son back to Arizona to live with him. Or any other half-assed idea that flies into his head and out of his head on any given day. It is called crazy-making behavior for a reason.
Also, if you have a custody agreement in place, it gives you leverage — either he abides by the literal letter of the agreement or you nail him. That means you can NEVER agree to one variation. If the agreement says he has your son on alternate Saturdays from 10-5, that means alternate Saturdays from 10-5. It does not mean Mondays. It does not mean he can return the child at 5:15. It is your only way to get control of his madness.
Also, once you have the custody agreement and support agreement in place, it gives you more leverage. If he doesn’t pay the support, you haul his sorry ass into court. Not that that means he will pay. What it means it that ultimately you are going to make it too expensive for him to stay involved in you and your son’s lives.
Enough time goes by with him abandonning your son, not paying support etc, you will then be able to go into court and move for termination of his parental rights. THAT is your ultimate goal.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 10:31am
learnthelesson says:
Matt – Is your lunch appointment over yet??
I cant take the suspense!!
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 2:02pm
Matt says:
learnedthelesson:
Just returned. It was very nice — he paid. Seriously, the nicest part was that the conversation flowed for over two hours — and know what? S WASN’T MENTIONED ONCE. It was just easy, free-flowing conversation. I’m still amazed that S didn’t find his way into the converstion after all the time and resources that S took from both this guy and me.
Personally, this guy is nobody’s fool and I suspect that he has figured out what S and S’s ex (before me) are all about. He had told me about 8 months ago that he had finally cut off the ex when the ex came looking for cash. I suspect he has figured out what S is all about.
I think this was an interesting life-lesson for me. That victims of a sociopath can actually spend time with each other and NOT waste time talking about a sociopath.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 2:29pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Endthepain:
1. Change your number again…..
2. buy a disposable cell phone and put it on a family plan….cost is about 10.00 a month. Give S the Number of THAT phone. Set up voice mail on the cell phone and stick it in a drawer and check it weekly or whenever for messages. You are not hiding your son from him, you are available by phone, you just do not have to be available via your Main phone number, freaking out whenever the phone rings thinking it may be him.
This gave me piece of mind.
Try to do some heavy breathing……With all your mite…try to keep yourself even!
Your a strong woman!
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 3:03pm
learnthelesson says:
Matt –
Would you ever have thought in your wildest dreams that you would be having lunch today with this person!!!!! See how life is so unpredictable. Im glad it went well and flowed and you enjoyed yourself.
Tread lightly with this situation…but enjoy the newfound friendship and keep your RFS (red flag system) in check. There may never be any mention of him or there may be..but as long as you remain in control of exactly what you planned on saying and dont EVER veer from that you will always be able to put the S behind you in forging ahead with new situations and friendships.
Really glad it turned out so well today!
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 4:11pm
Rosa says:
Matt:
Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE this guy you had lunch with was not sent by S to see if you would talk about him?
I find it incredible that neither of you spoke of S. It is like the elephant in the room that you both ignored.
Did you make plans to see him again?
Be very careful. You know these are the kinds of webs S’s like to spin.
I am very skeptical of these types of situations, because I’ve been in so many. It is usually a fact-finding mission for at least one of the parties involved.
If you both want to put S behind you, then you should establish that through dialogue. Don’t just assume it!
Be very careful.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 6:07pm
Matt says:
Rosa:
This guy is much older than I. He falls into the category of what I call “friend-lite.” More than an acquaintance, but not somebody I would pour my heart out to. Interesting to meet for an occasional lunch or a drink. But, that’s about it. No plans to see him anytime in the near future.
As a matter of fact, I told him if he wanted to venture over to my family’s house in Greece, he was more than welcome. I was curious to see if he’d rise to the bait and ask me if I’d been back since I took S there (and which S made a hell-on-earth for me). Nope.
If I had to lay bets on it, I suspect his usefulness to S has been exhausted since he made it clear to me that this economic collapse has affected him substantially (translationL the “borrowing” window is closed to S).
But, I intend to steer a very wide berth around the topic of S.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 6:54pm
Rosa says:
Matt:
O.K. I feel better now.
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Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 7:15pm
usedabused says:
Matt -
This is ringing a bell. I did not mention my S’s name when I met his friend who had also helped him, after we split. But he was there for the S. And when I dumped him, he soldiered up, took care of things. Beware. I’ve scrolled up to find the embryo of this and cannot.
Endthepain -
Document, document, document. Getting a cold phone is not a bad idea, but make sure your son calls back. The goal here is not just a custody arrangement but a TERMINATION OF PARENTAL RIGHTS. You need to show he does not care. A call returned, and not returned back for a week or more, over and over, not doctors visits attended, no meetings at the school, you can do it. Get rid of him.
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Friday, 1 May 2009 @ 1:04am
endthepain says:
okay…I did the phone thing. I actually spoke with my ex S lastnight. Stayed strong and he was very quiet..just listened…after I finished he said he would think about it and get back to me.
Basically what I did was put it back in his lap as far as our son goes reinforced that my son needs consistency and that I am not trying to keep him from seeing him just that he needs to get his act together before he does…get a job a place to live..figure out ehat state he is going to live in for gods sakes and that this is on him and he needs to deal with this not his wife as I will not be pit against her again and not his mother as she will not be our go between. I didnt bring up thre child support. I told him he could call his son whenever he would like to andgave him the number.
I plan on using this as more leverage to document hios lack of caring…at the same time remaining distant enought to not get pulled under by him. My son wanted to call him today..so i let him..he told him he loved him and missed him..it was nice to see my son so happy to hear from him. (altho I know it wont last long) any advice on going forward….I know Im treading thin here with any contact…so help me..I already looked into the court to open custody up as well.
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Friday, 1 May 2009 @ 4:52pm
usedabused says:
Endthepain,
You did good, just stuck to your son and no other issues. I’m not sure you can deny visits because of no job or place to live, is there anyone who could take him to a suitable location, bowling alley maybe, and let them spend time together? You’re right not to bring up support, they can have a $50k judgment and still the right to visit.
I’m worried too about contact. Need to write to set up a paper trail for a deduction, Matt’s method.
Just keep your phone records, if it’s a cell it’s all on-line, the calls will drop in frequency, hopefully.
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Friday, 1 May 2009 @ 5:16pm
endthepain says:
usedandabused…thank you! the support is much needed : ) Yes I have actually put in motion for any visits to be at his mothers house…I am very close with her and she loves my son dearly..so that will be the only place it will happen UNTIL he can get himself situated wherever that will be and yes I kept it strictly about my son! baby starps..I know..but I feel good…as far as bringing up the job and place to live I did that more so he knows Im not messing around regarding support..he has to support himself and stop relying on other people as I will not lower the child support amount…I was subtle and got my point across
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Friday, 1 May 2009 @ 5:39pm
usedabused says:
Endthepain,
You are welcome, glad to help. Mother is good, I was close to mine’s mother too but have not talked with her since I dumped him. Even though we had promised each other to stay friends no matter what, I really want no ties to him, no information going back.
It’s not your obligation to change the amount. If he can’t pay it, he needs to do a change of circumstances motion.
Good going!
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Friday, 1 May 2009 @ 5:49pm
Stargazer says:
Talking about the self-confidence of the sociopath, I just watched a documentary last night called The Thin Blue Line about a sociopathic cop killer who manages to convince the authorities that his travel companion (who had no prior record) was the killer. In the interviews with David Harris, the sociopath, he was calm, confident, and cool, and very matter-of-fact. He could easily be the cool guy next door that you want to hang out with. My exS also had that exact same quality. What a magnet it is! With the looks, charm, and confidence, they will never be at a loss for new victims. Ugh.
It was my S’s birthday the other day. I deliberately stayed off the reptile site for the entire week, just in case someone started a birthday thread for him and brought him back. I realized that my #1 priority is to get him out of my life and keep him out. Exposing him takes back seat, because it could always bring him back in, even just by association.
Matt, who was this person you had lunch with? I miss so much when I’m off the computer.
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Saturday, 2 May 2009 @ 7:18pm
Matt says:
Hey, Stargazer:
This guy was a guy who lives around the corner, whom I became friendly with through S. He posted S’s bail when S was arrested and allowed S to move in with him when S was released from prison. He’s a retired attorney, a genuinely interesting and nice guy. He always liked me for being me, independent of S.
Anyhow, I bumped into him on the street a couple of weeks back and he invited me out to lunch the other day. Strictly friends. No romance. I suspect he’s figured out what S is all about. I also suspect that he is of no further use to S since he made it clear to me that he’s been hit hard by the economic collapse — translation — his borrowing window is closed to S.
Nice thing about the lunch — S’s name didn’t come up once.
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Saturday, 2 May 2009 @ 7:35pm
Stargazer says:
Matt,
Wouldn’t it be totally ironic if you ended up meeting the love of your life through S? LOL
Seriously, though, sounds like you really have some good boundaries about meeting new friends and keeping them at a friendship level. I suspect if he was still being plagued by S, he would definitely want to talk about it. Obviously, you are both moving on. Towanda!
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Saturday, 2 May 2009 @ 8:00pm
christie lee says:
Hello all…I am still dumbfounded by the fact that in each and everyone’s story and in every article I read, there he is. I have to wonder if they too have a site like this where they can swap stories, learn new methods and so on…now wouldn’t that be an interesting read!…”you should have seen the look on her face, and you know she actually believed me.” he said chuckling. Of course the secretive nature of their existance would in all likelihood stop them from sharing about anything. I know that if I keep things bottled up, I am a wreck..Does the sociopath ever keep anyone abreast of the actual truth? Not nesessarily a co-conspiritor, but someone who may have the real story, and not even realize it. Picture this…the sociopath goes “home” and starts telling his tales of how he stole money from a crippled man and so on. Those listening would most surely be in a state of disbelief, wondering why on earth their friend would make stuff up. They may call him a liar, tell him he needs to get help, but what they will tell each other once he has left again is , Hooray!! In his truth they see only lies. If a sociopath were to actually be truthful, even if he knows no one believes him, does it revive/relieve him in any way? Just another manipulation, perhaps. If telling the truth causes people to call him a liar, he now can assume that he truly is a master.
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 7:19pm
Matt says:
christie lee:
They know just enough to sprinkle a touch or two of truth in their lies. Silly us glommed onto that touch or two of truth and bought the rest of the lies.
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 7:38pm
slimone says:
I have watched a sociopath tell the truth and have watched the other persons’ jaw drop. I think they may do this quite a bit. I think they enjoy the ensuing confusion they see on other folks faces when they, with pathological confidence, tell about one of their escapades. Whether the listener assumes it is a lie or not, the teller is reveling in his own sick behavior, because NO ONE ELSE’S OPINION matters to him a single iota.
It could be a kind of unconscious confessional, that is contorted by their disease. A need to purge. I frequently felt that the s I knew needed for whatever reasons to tell me the truth. As a weapon, a bludeoning device? I think in the ‘intimate’ relationship this kind of brutal honesty is used to undermine the confidence and balance of the partner.
In a more social setting, it seems like just another ploy for attention, and to reinforce their self-image as a self-made man or woman. Someone who is above the rules, playing god and making his/her own rules. Powerful beyond comprehension.
I once had a N give me the phone to listen to an irate and incredibly persistent customer of his. The man on the voicemail was telling the N how he ‘just couldn’t DO what he did…it was morally wrong…..bad business……inconsiderate…’ it went on for a good 10 minutes. This guy had called a dozen times, and was at the end of his rope.
And the N was grinning ear to ear while I listened, and I looked at him wondering why the hell he would ’share’ it with me; as I would have been embarrassed like hell to share that kind of personal failure with anyone.
He is still married to an ex-girlfriend of mine. So we were not that close.
But he didn’t see it that way. He was ‘confident’ in his twisted world of winning and losing. And he had won. He had gotten the best of this other man. And cost that man hundreds of thousands. Felt like he just needed an audience.
Maybe that does provide relief. But from what?
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:10pm
Stargazer says:
Christi,
Some sociopaths have the fatal flaw that they like to brag about their crimes. I recently watched a documentary about a sociopath who killed a cop and then immediately bragged about it to his friends. When he realized he was about to get turned in for murder, he immediately changed his story and pointed the finger at the driver of the vehicle, a drifter he’d picked up who had no criminal record (the sociopath had a long rap sheet). Don’t you know everyone believed the sociopath and the other guy got a life sentence? To watch the interviews with the real-life sociopath is to watch a master. He is just so smooth and convincing. He doesn’t act crazy or neurotic. He seems very self-assured and totally down-to-earth. You would never doubt for a second whether he is sincere. He sounds very believable. I think to them telling the truth is just incidental. Occasionally, grains of truth get woven into their stories, but it’s all the same to them. It’s just part of the story they use to exploit people. It’s pretty diabolical.
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:21pm
newlife08 says:
Matt,
I am just catching up and reading about your lunch !!!
Goodness – you had the interest of everyone at peak levels!!!
Glad to hear you had a pleasant time – with no complications.
All these folks looking out for you – it’s sweet to see all the good stuff here among everyone – makes me feel hopeful ….
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Monday, 4 May 2009 @ 8:21pm
apex_70 says:
hello,
this is happening to me right now, at this exact moment, as i sit here and type this. for the last 3 or 4 days i have felt about an inch away from having a nervous breakdown. i have never had one before but i know that this is what is happening to me. i also know it would be my body and minds way of shutting down to protect me.
i am so so very scared. i need help and i don’t know where to turn. i know i am a very sensitive person and i have neurotic tendencies but this is different. i feel disorientated, confused, my sense of reality is clouded, i can’t think straight. now i feel vulnerable when i go out and am among people in grocery stores and on the street.
i am in a strange city on the other side of the country and i feel cut off from everything i know. this guy is making me question my own sanity. he tells me i need counseling and that i am fat, then the next day he will say i am not fat, he has threatened me, basically everything he says is contradictory so i can’t tell what is real and what is not real.
everyone can be mean sometimes, i have experienced it, we all have, but this is different. it is so subtle and so elusive – it is like a mirage of reality and suddenly you are walking around disconnected from all you know and believe. i feel brainwashed. i am scared of his mind. i had a nightmare about him and i woke up with my chest literally bursting out of me like i was going to lose my breath. i have never woke up out of a nightmare like that.
the reason i am so scared is that i have known this guy for over 15 years, he is my cousins ex-boyfriend, and i never stopped to think about any of his behavior and now on and off for the past year i have slowly, very slowly pieced it together and i suddenly now know the truth. i think he knows i am on to him and that is why i am scared. i don’t think he would hurt me physically, but i am terrified of how he tries to manipulate me.
i always made excuses for him and bailed him out of so many rough spots and now he has other friends that are doing that too. but, although they admittedly know something is wrong they have not had the light bulb go off in their head like i have. i guess one day they will or maybe they won’t. i don’t know. but, i guess all that is important is that i know. and now that i know i can’t fake it anymore and pretend that he is just a funny, goofy guy that is always getting himself in trouble and frustrating other people to the point that they pull their hair out. he is a sociopath.
and when you are alone with him, one on one, slowly over time you can see the evilness in him. he has built a character and a persona for himself and i can see right through it. now he suspects that i am on to him and he is getting nervous. i would never tell anyone. all i can try to do at this point is protect myself and keep what i know to myself.
i have many questions, but my main one at this point is: how do you know if you are being gaslighted? i mean how do you really know? i am in the middle of it right now. it has reached a peak, it can’t get any worse then it is right now. please give me some comments or feedback.
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Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 10:58am
skylar says:
If you think you are being gaslighted, you are. There is no other feeling in the world like it.
Your realization is exactly what happened to me. When I saw what he was, I tried to stay, to gather evidence, but he became so evil that I could no longer stay and I ran.
It’s best if you leave as soon as you can. They are dangerous because they have no morals to prevent them from doing whatever they want. Only the fear of being caught.
Right now you need an exit strategy – fast.
Meanwhile stay very calm. Can you get someone from your far away friends or family to collaborate a story with you?
Tell them to say that they are in the midst of an emotional crisis or very sick and they need you to fly out there to see them right away. You just need a reason to get away so you can gather your wits. Realize that when you come back you must do it with a friend to gather your possessions and tie up loose ends.
Also, don’t do any planning from your phone or computer. Go to the library or a phone booth. Most Domestic Violence websites will stress this. Sociopaths are very controlling, so they often use surveillance or monitoring software.
Erase your history on your computer, don’t keep links, but make some fake history too, so he won’t know that you are erasing.
They like servitude so when you need to go out, tell him you are going out to get HIM something for dinner or a present for being so nice or something he needs or wants.
As to what is real and what is not: All the good stuff is not, all the bad stuff is real.
He sounds exactly like my Ex.
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Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:20am
kim frederick says:
Your physical symptoms upon waking up from your night mare, tells me what is going on is very very real. Your unconscious mind is smarter in some ways than your conscious. Listen to it! ALL of Skylars suggestions, above, are very good, and wise. Please get out of this relationship.
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Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:32am
alohatraveler says:
Dear Greenfern,
I know this is an older thread but I saw you comment about when you wonder “was it real?” Did it all really happen at all?
I can totally relate. I struggled with that question a lot post Bad Man. I wondered if ti really was me after all…. My nightmare went down in Maui and as I look around my room, there are a few momentos that tell me, yes, I was there but it does seem sureal at this point… but I am over 4 years out.
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Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 12:18am
OxDrover says:
Dear Greenfern,
There is a link on the left side of the page about how to leave a psychopath/sociopath. Read that and learn from it. One thing is do NOT give him notice that you plan to go. Just DO IT! and Be careful. As he sees you slip out of his control, he will intensify things to try to hook you back in. Be careful, be safe, and BE STRONG for yourself! ((((hugs)))) and God bless.
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Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 9:40am
kim frederick says:
Just going back and reading the archives. I wasn’t here for this one. Very timely, indeed. I think what amazes me most is the P/S/N’s inability to SEE themselves. They have no self reflection. This is very interesting when you think of the vampire myth, as the vampire has no reflection in the mirror.
We all know these monsters suck us dry!!!
It would just be sooooo much more convenient to swat em, like a mosqueto then to have to go through the whole silver stake through the heart thing, and then to have to remove their heads….Sigh. It’s so exhausting!
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 6:52pm
skylar says:
Oh Kim,
you have the wrong attitude about it.
Ask yourself, “what would Pinky-Doodle do?”
The answer: Remove their heads.
because it’s more fun.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 7:15pm
kim frederick says:
Pinky-Doodle would play with them til they were dead, get bored and leave their lifeless little bodies to rot. He would then cuss them because they lacked endurance (still can’t spell, shit.) But that’s just Pinky-Doodle. He’s funny like that.
Actually he’s really very charming….
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 7:24pm
skylar says:
I think Pinky Doodle has the right idea…
amazing how our pets can inspire us!
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 7:30pm
Wini says:
kim frederick, remember that vampires hate crosses too. The light of God, as well as daylight kills their evil. I always felt that I should carry a bucket of water as I entered work to drip on them (maybe it’s easier to carry a loaded squirt gun today) to kill their beautiful wickedness … “I’m melting … aaaahhhhhhhhh, she melted my beautiful w-i-c-k-e-d-n-e-s-s …..shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh”.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 7:43pm
jillsmith says:
This article was perfect for me to read tonight. I have been mystified at my lack of confidence lately. The S is a very arrogant individual. It seems like he fed off of my confidence. I used to be one of those girls who seemed like she had everything going for herself. I made good, solid, sensible choices in life. I was a student body officer, a girl’s nation delegate, college grad at recognizably difficult university. I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging, because I’m not. I have horrible self-esteem now and think I’m not worth anything. When I describe the person I used to be, it’s almost as if I’m describing someone else, someone who died. I don’t know that person anymore, that’s for sure. He even talked about how I had all of these qualities and recently, he said they were “all gone”. The ******** had the nerve to say this to me, when he’s the one who reduced me down to this size!!!! Anyway, I used to think I was intelligent, but sometimes I wonder how intelligent I was if I was so easily duped by him. This article makes me see more clearly how I was so duped by him. He’s very intelligent and the fact that he had just received his PhD made me even more convinced of his intelligence. I think I just took everything he said as the absolute truth. When he said horrible things to me, I believed them. Even if he made up the most upsurd thing I have ever heard, I found myself wondering. . .there was and is no end to the madness.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 8:41pm
jillsmith says:
Edit: ABSURD, not upsurd. Oh goodness, now I can’t even seem to spell. How embarrassing. I seriously have been noticing lately how my spelling is going downhill very quickly. I used to be a great speller. See? I am becoming an idiot!
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 8:44pm
jillsmith says:
Greenfern and Aloha Traveller,
I can totally relate. I often find myself wondering if it was real. I swear that if I didn’t have our son as proof that this happened, I would swear it was a dream, or a nightmare. It just seems too impossible, horrific and crazy to be real.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 8:46pm
jillsmith says:
Apex,
I think it sounds like you’re being gaslighted. How you describe your feelings is how I felt while I was with the P. I was also far from family and friends when I was with him and had just moved across the country for him. I felt as you describe how you feel, exactly. This is how I felt before the S in my life started abusing me. It all happened so fast, as I was only with him for 8 weeks. It was a very short marriage. I of course had to drag it on for years by going back to him somewhat recently. Anyway, the way you are feeling is just how I felt before he became physically abusive. I think these feelings were my gut’s way of saying, “RUN!!!”. Do you think your gut is telling you to run? If so, please run fast and hard.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 8:54pm
skylar says:
I was reading some posts from May on this thread. People asked if the P’s ever brag about the evil they do.
Yes, mine did. But first he will explain how he was wronged or how evil his victim is and how they deserve what he did to them. THEN he will go into detail about his ingenious plan to serve up justice. Guess, what? I RECORDED IT. He was telling me how he was going to punish the cops for “spiking him” when my neighbor (his girlfriend) called me in as a missing person. So she calls the cops and tells them that he admitted to killing me and having my body in garbage bags. They all show up, they call my phone, leave various messages, the shit hits the fan, Seattle police goes to my parents house they make a big deal about it and then, abruptly, the cops decide that it was a joke, so they leave. I gave the recording to the sherrif 2 months ago and he has not bothered to call me back. The cops were in on the whole “joke”.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 9:26pm
OxDrover says:
Jillsmith,
PTSD causes “injuries” (for lack of a better word) in the language parts of the brain…I got where I could not READ (no joke) not even a sentence, short term memory problems, etc. so a great deal of what you may be experiencing in feeling “dull” or “dumb” (for lack of better words) may be simply the symptoms of PTSD.
Rapid eye movement therapy is the BEST therapy I have found for PTSD symptoms—not a total fix, but a BIG help and fairly rapidly compared to just talk therapy (which can I think make PTSD worse at times.) I am also reading a book on relaxation and imaging by a Phd who seems like she knows what she is talkign about both scientifically and emotionally so don’t feel so “dumb” (or whatever the feeling is) I know it made me feel ‘better” to realize that people as bright and smart and educated as Dr. Liane Leedom and donna and others here were also “duped” by these creatures and “fooled” as badly as I was—so we are in good company. I bet you have noticed how “smarter than the average bear” the bloggers are here on LF.
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Friday, 2 October 2009 @ 10:36pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: I did NOT know PTSD causes ‘injuries’ to the language part of the brain!!! Thanks for posting this!!!..as I am a writer. On an assignment for a national magazine once -I was talking with the editor…I looked at the word extrapolate and did not even recognize it for a second or so!!! Later I sat and thought- what is happening to me. I had other times I did this with other words. I no longer have this problem since I am out of the hell and pretty far along in healing, thank God!
As far as us feeling dumb because we got conned or duped>I read in Dr. Robert Hare’s book: Without Conscience that even he got fooled and he wrote the psychopathy checklist widely used to diagnose psychopathy! And…some of his staff got fooled too and they were interviewing the p’s to begin with. One female got conned by one of the male p’s she was interviewing…and started flirting back with him! So…hey, if they can get conned what chance do the rest of us stand? No need for us to feel ’stupid’. I did…but not anymore. I feel RELIEF to be out of it!
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 1:39am
ErinBrockovich says:
I don’t know if it was on this thread or not….
But lot’s of us have been in the position of worrying about ‘her’….the new supply.
Thinking the S’s are now in a wonderfully fullfiling relationship…Think again….
This article is a good one…..
You think YOU are so special!
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....cial.shtml
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 4:00am
blueskies says:
Erin that’s a great link, I have read it before and it REALLY helped, I dont know whether I found it through here… but oh, its good to go back and read it again, just to ‘top up’:)
People on the whole dont change their basic behaviour a whole bunch and S+Ps definately do not, its worth reminding ourselves.x
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 6:30am
OxDrover says:
Erin,
Thankis for posting that link again. It IS a great one.
One of the things that GRIEF DOES is to MAKE US VULNERABLE. It does this in several ways.
Even if you are not in PTSD, just “ordinary grief” puts you in a vulnerable spot, plus the STRESS of grief does a number on you too, so many of us, and THAT INCLUDES ME, look for a “painless” way out—-and another relationship will APPEAR to be one. Sometimes a person will “luck out” and find another good relationship, BUT it is a “well known FACT” (notice I put that in quotes) that a “widow” (and that also incluses anyone who has lost a relationship) is VULNERABLE for quite some time.
Boy O Boy! Was I EVER vulnerable! Grabbed up by ther first passing Psychopath! He was (I thought) going to rescue me from my loneliness, my sadness and make me feel like a princess the rest of my life!
Twice, in my case and in my son Ds (he was IN the crashh and was burned) the language problem and short term memory problems were SO PROFOUND and so IMMEDIATE that it didn’t take us long to realize WHAT the problem was. Literally couldn’t read even a sentence, and we are both big readers.This inability to read was almost total for several months, then slowly got better. We both read and read a lot now, but I do find that there are parts I have trouble remembering but can remember the over all concepts (I think) on most of what I read.
My word finding ability has not totally come back however, my spelling is still not back, and I find myself using “smaller words” when I write. I still have a LOT of trouble with remembering names and frequently can’t remember them at all for actors etc.
I am no longer any “good” at all in playing word games like “Wheel of fortune” and I was very good at that, and I watched Jeapordy last night for the first time in years and I would not have answered 1 out of 10 questions, where I used to be able to answer 99% of them. I still can’t do my “series of 100 numbers” repetition, and that was never a problem at all. so there are definitely some difficulties that were SUDDEN and very PROFOUND and noticeable in my use of language and retrieval of language.
There has been great improvement in the five years since my husband’s sudden, traumatic, and accidental death, but I realize there are still remnents of these injuries/changes in my way of processing language.
The major chaos and stress I was under during the year preceeding my husband’s death (my father was very ill) and after my husband’s death with the chaos of the P-attacks etc. I realize that truly I have only been working hard to recover for a couple of years and that’s a lot of trauma and stress and fear to over come in only a couple of years, so (pat-pat—–that’s the sound of me patting myself on the back! LOL) over all I ithink I have done well.
The NC is so important to our recovery I think because it keeps us from having NEW INJURIES.
If you will read back through a lot of the posts here EVERYTIME someone breaks NC they come back here in PAIN because of breaking NC and getting a NEW EMOTIONAL INJURY. It is like tearing the scab off the wound. It can’t heal like that!
Understanding “what is happening” emotionally, with the grief, the new injuries, etc. does help me some in putting it together and knowing what happened about my lost language skills and memory also reassures me somewhat, just that I’m not becoming brain dead.
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 9:42am
blueskies says:
Oxy, Its really interesting what you say about PTSD effecting the brain like that.
Since the D&D and within the devastation that resulted,I have found it really difficult to concentrate generally, but I noticed that I had began to stutter when speaking to others,quite makedly, and my concentration was shot. I am still finding reading slow and difficult still,I find myself re-reading the same sentence over and over again, but I put it down to depression and just keep ‘practising’.
But I guess the depression is part of the PTSD.
The stuttering was really weird though, never happend to me before, felt like ‘nerves’, but happend with my children even, so looking back it was very strange.
I had an interesting conversation with my Niece that ties in with this maybe?(bit of background) To cut a long story short, she is the daughter of my ‘imaginary sister’( I was told my memories of her living with us were false she was taken into care when I was young) and has been in and out of care her whole life, Her mother (my sister) displays all the signs of being a sociopath and I also believe some munchausen(sp?) symptoms.
Niece is an incredibly well adjusted woman now, I think being taken into care and having the support of counsellor and social services saved her life and sanity.
Anyway, waffle waffle, my point is: she was telling me that when she was a child she felt like she was living in a fog, that she didnt know who she was, which is very familiar to me, but at one point she LOST the ability to speak. Completely, for about 6 months, when she was able to speak again she only spoke in ’spoonerisms’ – probably about 7 or 8 years old.
So does the brain shut down systems when under extreme stress (PTS), in order to conserve itself, and speech/language / reading is one of them… but it can be remedied right, she’s totally fine with regard to that now, and I am getting better every day… just partially brain dead;)xx
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 10:18am
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: you are so correct in this post. I am very sorry for your losses and pain. And for everyone’s pain here. I do believe tho, it’s possible we would never have learned what we have w/o what we have been thru. I think one of the keys to actually living is being able to take our mistakes and sorrows-and allow them to make us become better people instead of bitter and vengeful. And…that is what I see on LF….people becoming better, well and overcoming evil by good. Very encouraging and uplifting. For what are we w/o character?….well, we would be p’s….that’s what.
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 10:22am
skylar says:
TB,
you said it all. There is no way, no how, that I could have EVER understood what I understand today, without experiencing it first hand. There is no movie or book, no class or religion that encompasses the totality of this experience.
In it’s most basic form, the lesson I have learned it what it REALLY means to be human. So many questions I’ve had my whole life are now being answered: what is free will? do we really have a choice when every part of us is being influenced by genes and environment? What make people good or evil? What is sacrifice? How does stockholm syndrome happen?
If I had realized what I was experiencing during that time, I would not have been able to really experience it. (You may have heard of the effect of the observer.) The most profound part of it – the part that still boggles the mind – is the LIES. So much lying, for no reason, so irrational, so sick.
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 10:45am
Twice Betrayed says:
blueskies: “The stuttering was really weird though, never happend to me before”
I had that about ten years ago. Never happened to me before either. FREAKED me out. And then….it just went away. I am seeing now thru Oxy’s post that this is all caused by stress-PTSD. wow………I am so glad to finally understand this. Oxy…bless you for this info. LF is such a lifeboat.
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 10:49am
Twice Betrayed says:
sky: so painfully true.
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 10:55am
OxDrover says:
Dear Blue, Sky and Twice,
I just lost a long post to you guys, but anyway, will try to remember what I said! LOL ROTFLMAO!!!
We are DIFFERENT, we get more of some things (alertness becomes HYPER) and less of other things (language skills) from the effects of the SUPER-stress. Because mine was so SUDDEN after the aircraft crash, it was more noticable to me. I know that LONG stress of high levels (but NOT sudden) can also have a profound effect as well, so I think I have had BOTH kinds, but didn’t realize what was happening until the SUDDEN one happened. Just the suddeness of it madeit much more noticable.
I am sort of I think like a child that learns differently now, I hate the term “learning disabled”–I think these kids learn DIFFERENTLY—actually could they be either biologically wired differently or could they also be suffering from stress induced language difficulties? I think that might be a good question to have answered.
I wish I had known what was happening before, I knew about grief process and I think knowing about it DID help, but the arrogance on MY part of thinking that by knowing it, I didn’t have to FEEL it,was the part that delayed me. Not the nowing it delaying me, but my own arrogance that I could “over come anything” LOL
Learning about WHAT caused my word finding difficulty reassures me that it is “normal” and while I WILL BE DIFFERENT than I was, it is OK. I can’t do my parlor trick of recalling 100 numbers in a row any more, and I can’t remember every conversation I ever had word for word, (this allowed the gaslighting to work) but at the same time, they gaslighted me before the “injury” because I just could not emotionally accept that my egg donor would LIE. I thought she was just making a “mistake” so I woujld “forgive” the “mistake” without realizing she was LYING.
I hav emade adjustments to my lack of short term memory, writing lists, etc. but am no longer TERRORIZED that I am “losing it” mentally. I am just DIFFERENT than I was. Not so “bad” as before, but definitely DIFFERENT. I also stutter sometimes when I am having trouble finding a word.
I am no longer able to work in my profession because of the word finding difficulties so I retired back when it was at its worst. And, I can accept that my professional capability is no longer adequate for such a high stress job, and one in which memory is paramount in importance….people’s lives would be on the line.
But my over all IQ is the same in spite of that, which is strange to me, but has been tested so I know I am right on that. My judgment is also returning and in some ways I am much more “clear sighted” in emotional areas than before.
My hyper-alertness and FEAR has calmed, and I am more accepting of my changes and less anxious about them. So I am DIFFERENT, but that’s OK.
It takes TIME and WORK to understand these changes, and knowing that they are “caused” by something and fit a “pattern” for PTSD helps me too.
I am “obscessed” about learning about this in a scientific way, and knowing what is going on helps me a bunch I think. My curosity about causes and effects has always been high and still is.
NC though has been the salvation of my sanity, that and the validation I have gotten here at LF in a low stress environment of like-minded people who “get it”—-I am glad that by sharing what I am finding out is also helping others as well.
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 11:10am
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: “NC though has been the salvation of my sanity, that and the validation I have gotten here at LF in a low stress environment of like-minded people who “get it”—-I am glad that by sharing what I am finding out is also helping others as well.”
That is the truth, Oxy!
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Saturday, 3 October 2009 @ 11:17am