What works when dealing with a sociopath?
PDF Lovefraud recently received the letter below from a reader; we’ll call her Andrea.
I was married to a sociopath for 12 years (didn’t know it until we divorced). He had 3 affairs and was a minister for a majority of that time. He messed up a lot of lives. Anyway, I am at my wits end right now because I cannot get him out of my life because we had 2 children. I am so tired of dealing with him. My kids are 12 and 10 now and my ex is doing everything in his power to try and convince my son to go live with him when he’s 14. I see it happening and there’s nothing I can do to stop it. I keep notes about everything that happens, but my lawyer tells me that it would be a very hard case if my son wants to go.
I’m also struggling right now because I have something my ex wants. I have some documents from when we were married and owned a business. He needs some proof that another couple we were in business with is not responsible for a loan we had. My ex got the loan in the divorce. I believe he’s trying to bankrupt his business. Anyway, I’m refusing to give him the documents because I am so tired of being bullied by him and lied to. I know this was a stupid thing to do because now he’s furious and is attacking me through emails and bashing me to the kids. But, it seems so unfair that I have to give in to him ALL THE TIME to keep the peace. I am tired of it. He has something I want and I’m holding the documents as a bargaining tool. Do you think this will work with a sociopath? Or am I just asking for it?
A relationship or any type of involvement with a sociopath leaves us with a big ball of turmoil. We discover that everything he or she has ever said to us was a lie, and we are outraged. We learn that we were played like a fool, and we are humiliated. We realize that our love and trust were abused, and we fear that we’ll never love and trust again.
While trying to deal with the emotional shock of the betrayal, we also have to deal with the practical issues of disengaging—divorce, finances, children. As we do this, especially if there are legal proceedings involved, we want to tell the world, or at least the judge, about the sociopath’s wrongdoing. We want to prove that we were honorable, and the sociopath was not. We want to be vindicated.
The sociopath does not experience this emotional turmoil. The sociopath’s only objective is to win. The definition of “winning,” of course, depends on what the sociopath wants. Maybe it’s keeping his or her possessions, such as children. Maybe it’s keeping his or her money by not having to pay child support. Maybe it’s destroying us.
Think strategically
Usually Lovefraud advises our readers to have no contact with sociopaths. Of course, this is not possible when someone, like Andrea, has to co-parent with a sociopath.
My advice to Andrea was to think strategically. There is no point withholding the documents just because she is tired of being bullied. What does she really want? What leverage does she have to get what she wants?
The documents she talks about are leverage. Therefore, Andrea should play this exactly as the sociopath would—using the documents to extract some kind of concession out of him. She needs to evaluate what that might be, and then use her leverage to get it.
However, whatever she demands needs to be something that the sociopath can deliver immediately, not at some time in the future. Sociopaths do not honor agreements, so there is no point in asking for something that will be delivered later, or over a long period of time. It will never happen.
What works?
For sociopaths, it’s all a game, a game that they want to win.
In my case, however, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, just quit playing. In our divorce, he fired his attorney, signed papers to represent himself pro se, and then defaulted. He was on to his next scam, and had no use for me. I never interacted with him again.
So I actually don’t have experience in ongoing dealings with a sociopath. Therefore, I ask Lovefraud readers for your input. If you must continue to deal with a sociopath, what works?
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Joy says:
Thanks Matt, I made the call and seemed to get a great guy with much insight into both pedophile behavior and sociopathic tendencies. Can only pray for the best. If I’m wrong oh well, If I’m right I did all I could to save her from it.
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muldoon. says:
Hello all…back to reading daily..a funny thing has occured..which just about sums up the double standards and hypocricy of these evil bastards.
He found a text from someone I was once friends with while he was away, he has gone absolutely ape, teelling me how I ahve destroyed us, how hurtfull it was that I had kept saved,
I pointed out, that I hadnt really done that much wrong, he wasnt here at the time through HIS choice..and that if he felt betrayed and hurt how did he think I had felt all the time I had found texts form women WHILE WE WERE TOGETHER..I asked what he wanted me to say…he said what he wanted which was basically for me to accept what I had done was bad and then to explain it, but wouldnt accept any eplanation even it really had nothjing to do with him..I then get pissed at the moral high ground he is taking given his utter disregard through 9 arduous, traumatic, hair raising years.Given that when he was caught actualy decieving me he didnt say sorry or explain..he beat the shit out of me and strangled me..or the many times he just upped and offed and disappeared, making new “deep meamningfull relationships” with indecent haste.
He then had the gall to say yeah but thats the past..I say only in the past few weeks you have been giving me the silent treatment for any old bit ot trivia..even on the day Iw as discharged from the hospital..He then comes the see “I cant say anything to you because if I do I have to listen to this shit!!!”
They like to move the goal posts..they will expect you to be held accountable even when there is nothingt o be held accountable for, but they will not be held accountable..
So finding myself back in the begging to be heard shennanighans..I decide to behave as he would,w ithout the assault of course..I say yeah right well thats how it is, I aint explaining. Its certainly taken the wind out of his sails.
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muldoon. says:
And where as before the situation would have had me going through hoops, upset and edgy. I actually do not give a ****. its very liberating and enpowering to be freee form the old way of him giving me hell and me trying to please and begging for him to stop..
He has now just come the “so it was payback, a taste of my own medicine” I say no but its a bonus..he then comes the attempt to have me feeling guilty by saiying ” Does the victory feel good?” and I had the taste and now we are done…LOL.He still sat here though and he aint doing his usual stam,ping round making a racket nor is he being menacing..God Ive changed so much..yes stupid to have had him back..but its now on my own terms..Have just told him to finish seeing the kids and leave, I think he thought he would be staying here!!
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jfog1 says:
Matt,
Thank you so much!
My (S) must be scared or he wouldn’t be making attempts to make me think he “misses me”,etc..
That is somewhat satisfying in itself. I am afraid of possibly seeing him, however, as I haven’t since almost one year ago.
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newlife08 says:
Hi Matt,
Welcome back – sorry you had such an emotionally difficult weekend. My mom has been diagnosed BPD with Narcissistic traits in her old age and she is as difficult as ever. She had been threatening to commit suicide in the hospital one too many times and they came and took her right out of her bed to the psych ward a few years ago. So after all these years, I guess it explains why I loved a N/S for 22 years and still find it hard to let go of him.
Anyway, Lawyer’s new idea to get the newer house without the debt of any mortgage is to get NS to agree to pay it monthly with term limits on the mortgage. We will also put a lean on another of his properties in case he defaults.
Lawyer says NS should be AFRAID to go in front of a judge for decisions to be made because a judge is obligated in NJ to report tax fraud to the IRS. So this may serve as leverage – although we know NS is not afraid of anything!!!!
This way I would also be able to support the shore house and have it as college/retirement/living fund if needed.
Let me know what you think.
Also, on an emotional level. My son had a difficult time this weekend dealing with the G/F’s phone calls to his father – especially on Mother’s Day. The g/f’s mother’s health status was also the topic of discussion at the food store in front of my son with a neighbor that knows of their affair. My son goes to school with this gal’s kids and he was again made to feel uncomfortable about hearing details of his father’s other life.
As a man, how do you suggest I handle this…to validate that this behavior is not “acceptable” , good men are ffaithful, kind, love their wives and kids ….how do I help him not to repeat the cycle without totally demeaning the image of his dad?
I appealed to the neighbor that my son feels her calls are difficult to deal with and her reaction was predictabe I suppose :
- Get over it
- Nobody controls me
-I didn’t do anything to your son
-You need to move on B—–!
_ He loves me and I love him
- He is a great guy
-I am happy he left “L” ( the last affair) for me and left you finally
- I know about his past – we aired all our dirty laundry with each other
I cannot understand how a woman and mother can behave like this in front of her own kids nevermind mine??? Can she be a nutjob too?? Has to be – skank!!!
How to I teach my son most women are NOT like her???
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Matt says:
newlife08:
Just to make sure I understand, the new house is not held by any of his various corporate entities, so title would transfer to you. Then he would be obligated to pay the mortgage until X date (I’m assuming when your youngest turns 18).
In addition, if he doesn’t pay, you have a lien over other properties he owns (I’m assuming that even if these properties are held by some corporate entity, that he, as controlling shareholder has the right to agree to a lien on the properties).
Also, just to make sure I’ve got it straight, the shore house is going to be transferred out of the cororation holding it and the title will be transferred to you?
Let me know that I’ve got the facts straight and I’ll tell you what I think.
And I’m glad that your attorney realizes that the judge has to turn your S into the IRS if he suspects tax fraud. I would pay money to be in the room when the S’s attorney lays that little number on him.
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newlife08 says:
Yes Matt,
Mortgage will be paid by him – but hopefully in total – not just till youngest is 18. I already paid the mortgage in full on house #1 and he took the money and used it for something else other than paying the mortgage on new house. So I consider myself entitled to a house debt free since he wants his businesses 100%.
New house is in her personal name so title has to transfer to me also.
Shore house will have to be titles over to me and out of his corporation.
Obviously, there can be no tax liability held against me as income if he pays the mortgage.
Thanks, Matt.
Your thoughts on my son – as coming from a male, are also important to me. I do not want him to suffer trauma as you did.
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Matt says:
newlife08:
I’d say it’s a pretty good deal if you can get him to go along with it. Agree, that there should be no tax liability to you. I know that as a general rule, properties transferred back-and-forth between spouses in a divorce settlement are not subject to taxes. But, I’m not all that clear about stuff being transferred from corporations to a spouse. I’m operating on the assumption that since they are closely-held business entities under his control that the property and interests they contain are all considered marital assets and can be transferred in the same way.
My concern regarding the shore house still is him not filing for bankruptcy within the preference period so that the house isn’t called back as an asset which can be used to satisfy his creditors. It’s also good that you are getting a lien on other properties so it will hold his feet to the fire should he start screwing up on the payment schedule.
Regarding your son, I guess the starting place for me would be to find out exactly what his concerns are/what he feels regarding his father’s performace — and that of his father’s girlfriend — this weekend. The girlfriend is the easiest piece of this puzzle (God, I hope you get that new house so you can move your kids away from that bitch with a capital C which is your neighbor/his girlfriend). Since your son has probably has put together a lot of pieces regarding her role in this mess, I think you can pretty much address his views head on.
As for his father, you’re right — you’ve got to tread a fine line between validating your son’s concerns and not trashing his father. I think you’re on the right track regarding what the majority of decent males in this world think. And that you’re confident in the way that he is growing up that you know he’ll make the right choices.
Having grown up with two constantly warring parents, I think it’s really important that your son knows that he can at least express his concerns to you (and arguably his fathe) so he doesn’t feel completely powerless. While I think if your son raised his concerns regarding the girlfriend to his father, they’d fall on deaf ears, he needs to know that his feelings are valid and he can discuss them with you.
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newlife08 says:
Thanks, Matt
I owe you two drinks now………………..
God Bless
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Tilly says:
Thankyou for acknowledging me Sabrina. I had gone through a lot of physical violence and constant moving by then. Additionally the case to get custody and supervised access took up most of my life and cost me about fifty grand. But it was worth every cent. My youngest boy is my best friend and my greatest ali. I am sure if he had had the p in his life any longer, he would have been very very damaged. He is a beautiful happy healthy 19 year old with a needy girlfriend ( I know!), but he has a lot of insight and has seen everything that i went through and LEARNED.
And I loved your story OxDrover! Your mum and my mum would get on like a house on fire…they could rubbish us all the way to the tip.
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justabouthealed says:
I’d like to recommend the book “In Sheep’s Clothing”. It is not specifically about sociopaths, but one of the BEST I’ve seen in terms of understanding what they do, and what kind of traits to watch out for in yourself that put you at greater risk, and what kind of tactics help you deal with them. The book is about covert manipulators and not just psychopaths/sociopaths, and therefore doesn’t stress NO CONTACT, but if you have to deal with one, I think this book helps and I wish every parent would read it too!
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bunny says:
Matt “I always honor my debts”, lol – reminds me of my mother who would swear black and blue that she is, and always has been, truthful. Its such a joke, she lies about everything.
Pesel, I understand your agony about controlling her money from your fathers will. My mother is a total nutcase – always has been – and the lies and fraud and then the projections have to be seen to be believed.
She is a rich woman in her own right (after having gouged $$$$$ from her family and my father over the years) and has manipulated her way into a stranglehold over my fathers estate. The estate’s lawyer hasn’t followed the directions of the will which allows her to draw some $$$ from the estate should we (on seeing her financial figures) collectively deem it necessary.
Well she has NEVER provided financial figures but has always managed to skim the cream from the estate’s income all the same.
She asked me to lunch one day, because she thought I sounded burdened by life – or something and she asked about my financial affairs. Well I said that things were pretty grim and that like everyone else we had a mortgage we couldn’t pay and that we were struggling to get by” She looked me straight in the eyes and smiled ‘Oh Ive never had a mortgage!. She then asked if my husband beat me.
Anyway the SHTF when we eventually got independant lawyers to look at the situation. We sent her their advice and she has gone nuts. She wrote to a friend saying that her “evil traitorous children were trying to rob her and that we were challenging the will after 14 years” The irony is that the lawyer divulged that she was looking for ways to get more $$$ from the estate, as a counter to the advice we got.
She is a total nightmare.
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ErinBrock says:
Moved to another post.
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Denise Guiney says:
Jmb is right, No more Ms nice girl. Learn to identify things which you can use to your advantage. These people want to win and will take advantage of anything they can. Do the same yourself. Because I am a good mother I got caught in a trap where I could not afford a legal fight and to finance my daughters through University. I chose to keep funding them but I even learned to use thing which on which I’d been forced compromise to my advantage. I got blackmailed into renting a property to my father in Law for well under market rent. When the health insurance was not paid as promised I immediately stopped paying rates on that property and waited until the bailiffs turned up at the door. Shit hit the fan then and I got some co-operation. Of course it happened again and the deal presented was to restart paying the health insurance , as this would have meant losing continuity and benefits I did not want this. The whole time the lie was being presented (in front of health fund staff that this was the only way to re-insure. I strung this out for hours umming and ahhing and listening to the lies and then started to sign and stopped, asked for the top manager and directly asked if I could pay the arrears and not lose the benefits. The answer of course was yes. You should have seen his face and the face of the employee he’d roped into the scam. So I paid it on my credit card and I got the money back too later as I immediately stopped paying those rates again.
This is the only thing these people understand. They do not care about you the way you care about family. They only care about getting what they want.
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candy says:
Denise – you are absolutely right. it’s me, me, me (HIM)
Spaths do not give a fig about ANYONE else. Just what they want and can get for free.
They do not have a caring bone in their body.
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tandog1 says:
I’m at my wits end!!! Not only have I been fighting this same issue for myself since the moment I met this women but now she’s doing the same garbage to my children and I can’t get her to stop!! For some odd, strange reason she has no problem bringing up other people’s flaws up to their attention and making people feel bad. And repeatedly…I’ve brought these things up…and over and over…she down plays whomever brought it up…and somehow turns it into being my fault. For instance…my son came home from visiting grandma. He was upset over the fact that she was telling him he was overweight and kept belittling him with snotty comments about it throughout his visit. He proceeded to tell me that he was forced to do push-ups and every time he’d mess up…she would make him start all over again…my daughter was also there…she saw the whole thing. She told me that Tristan was sobbing the whole entire time. My guess is that he felt absolutely humiliated not to mention…how would you feel if your grandma is standing over you and staring with a mean look in her eyes? (my guess is that look of disgustment she gets on her face when she sees something that she doesn’t agree with) No…I did not bring this up to her attention. Why? She just going to make it seem like it wasn’t that big of deal and I’m going to look like the jerk again. My decision is this…I will not send my son there unless the courts appoint me too. So…if she does pursue visitation…what do you suggest I do? Me and my children are not the only victims here. Would it be in my best interest to collect as many names and numbers of people that she’s treated this way? Because I’m exhausted…I don’t know what else do!!!
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Ox Drover says:
Tandog1, I am assuming that you are male, that you have custody of your two children, and that the Witch is your X’s mother. (am I wrong on this assessment?)
I will give you the same informaiton we give most people dealing with a co-parent or relative, DOCUMENT< DOCUMENT DOCUMENT. Get your children (what ages?) to record on video the details of the event. Document as to time, date, and place that this event happened.
Then, I would not tell her "I am not letting you near my kids again witch!" But would simply have it "inconvenient" for them to go over there and stay today…and if you HAVE TO to keep her from taking you to court, take the kids over there and STAY WITH THEM, in other words don't leave them alone with the WITCH. That way she can't say you won't let her see them.
Also, EVERY time you talk to her keep a recorder in your pocket, and if it is not illegal in your state, record phone conversations as well. Or put it on speaker and have a WITNESS who listens.
The way she is treating your kids is child abuse, so I think you might also consider (I'd talk to an attorney about it first) call child protective services and report her….but I think you are right, this woman is not someone I'd want around my kids.
BTW welcome to Love fraud.
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