LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Do not expect the truth in an oral trial
Editor’s Note: The Lovefraud reader who write as “Jofary” relates her experience with a sociopath in Canadian divorce court.
I first participated on this site three years ago when I learned that my daughter, then only a toddler, was being sexually molested by her father (my ex). Up until that point, I was dealing with things in the typical way. I had caught my ex cheating on me and, when our son was only three months old, he immediately moved in with his mistress, who herself had extricated herself from her fifteen year stable marriage, believing my ex to be her “best friend and soul mate.” That was extremely distasteful in and of itself but, given my ex’s contributions (or lack thereof) emotionally, physically, and financially to our brief marriage, I was able to disengage from him within a month of his departure. Unfortunately, he became aware that I was not going to be his “back-up” plan after he was done having his fun with this woman, and became extremely vindictive towards me. Perhaps it was my demeanour towards him – he was completely irrelevant to me and I treated him as such by refusing to answer his phone calls or greet him personally at the door during the exchange of our children. In any case, it propelled me on a path to utter chaos and unsettlement.
My ex refused to negotiate on the sale of our house, all the while refusing to share payments on the mortgage or massive family debt (while I was on maternity leave, no less), claiming “it benefited him to keep his name on the deed as long as possible” and eventually confessing that he “didn’t care how much it cost to go to court, he just wanted me out of the house.” He didn’t want much access with his children and sporadically paid child support. The house was my only source of income (rental) and stability for the children and I attempted to buy him out immediately, at the time he left, and when I could afford it. When it became apparent what he was demanding far outweighed what he was legally entitled to be paid by me, and he absolutely refused to negotiate, I reluctantly agreed to sell the house and decided to take the case to court to have it settled.
Moving away
Then, the realization that he was molesting our daughter, coupled with the fact that I no longer had secure housing in one of the most expensive places to live in North America, made me realize I had no choice but to relocate. I applied to a school 300 km outside the area and was immediately slammed with a do-not-remove order by him and a demand to have the children live with him full-time. I can only conclude that being court-ordered to pay child support was weighing heavily on his mind. He was, at heart, a parasite and given that nature, it probably seemed unnatural to be giving money when he felt he should be getting it! I was successful in fighting this because my situation was precarious at best and certainly not in the best interests of the children, and I went on to school in a diploma program that complements the degree I already have in the hope that I would be financially independent in the near future.
Going to court
Near the end of my diploma program, our court dispute over division of assets came due. On the advice of my lawyer, this was an oral process (as opposed to affidavit) so, since I was the plaintiff, I was the first to sit in the witness box and make my statements. It was painfully difficult for me but I did my best, and had prepared thoroughly beforehand. He followed, with his own statements and I was stunned, floored, by the entire debacle, realizing I had seriously underestimated his ability to deceive. I was expecting some lies, but not the outrageous dishonesty he displayed. He was a flamboyant liar – claiming he was responsible for twice as many family debts as I was, that I had refused to cooperate with medical, daycare, and extracurricular costs for the children even though the exact opposite had occurred (much to my frustration and financially difficulty) – complete with an air of sincerity, tears, and victim mentality. I, on the other hand, came across as frustrated, defensive and probably vindictive (the “scorned woman” syndrome) – as I well should have been considering how financially devastated I had become as a result of his parasitic behaviour since separation. I had no defence for his accusations because “my time” in the witness box was over and I realized I was doomed.
In the end, he “won” the case and the assets were split equally, despite the fact that he had not shared a dime in the mortgage costs, repairs to the house, or insurance costs, and had driven a vehicle I was paying for over the last three years, simply because the credit was in MY name, which he didn’t have to reimburse me for. All because the entire oral debate relied mainly on the spoken word, with no opportunity for dispute based on written proofs.
Credibility of witnesses
In retrospect, it would have been much wiser for me to have demanded the trial be done by affidavits, not orally. Then I could have presented the truths coherently and plainly, through the plethora of e-mails I received from him refusing to share costs and acknowledgment he was walking away with no debts. As it were, the judge made his judgment based on the credibility of the witnesses. It was stunning and difficult to accept that even though I told the truth, apparently my ex presented himself to be a much more credible witness than I.
The important lesson that I learned, and which I wish to share with other Lovefraud readers in a similar position is this: Do NOT expect the truth will come out in court during an oral trial. If your ex has been able to bamboozle you successfully enough to establish a relationship, and has a history of deception, then the chances are very good he or she will be able to appeal to judge in the same way. Practice makes perfect, as they say. Written affidavits are far better evidence when dealing with this type of individual, and the more evidence, the better.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
eyeswideshut says:
Dear Jofary, Thank you thank you thank you. I have been working towards my day in court for 14 months, and may eventually have to represent myself. This advice is very valuable, and you are correct. My exes display of fake sincerity is breathtaking and VERY convincing. I would likely not stand a chance in a verbal exchange.
Welcome to Lovefraud. I hope you are through the worst of it and creating a new healthy life for yourself and your children. I am so sorry for the devastation you had to go through, especially in regards to your kids.
I am wondering when you realized what you were dealing with, and if it helped to know that your ex is likely a P/S/or N.?
Thanks again for speaking out and educating on this important issue.
Peace,
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Wednesday, 11 March 2009 @ 11:01am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Jofary…thanks for the story of how things go in the “justice system”. I avoided the “court appearance” before the judge. All the true “issues”…the d&d, the discard, the betrayal…the married “boyfriend” my daughter was exposed to…my attorney advised were not issues the court would address. I asked “When did legality get separated from morality?”
So, to reduce conflict, the negotiations were not direct. My lawyer negotiated with her lawyer…and an agreement was hammered out, and an “agreed entry” was submitted and approved by the judge. The judge never saw me, but did see my ex-tox once when her lawyer tried to hold a preliminary hearing without us knowing (he apparently had connections in the clerk/court staff who “sandbagged” the summonses and mailed them too late-something I may pursue in the future).
I gave up some money at issue for the ability to see my daughter nearly every day. I pay the agreed support on time every time so far.
My ex-tox…she tries to circumvent, dismiss, forget, violate, and ignore the agreement she signed and the judge ordered. She has broken state statutes requiring notifications of change in residence and employment location. She refuses to honor the parenting time schedule as laid out. She has no concern for inconveniencing me.
But, I deal with it. Due to her lack of concern, I usually net more time with my daughter. My life is not chaotic, so I can adjust.
The payoff comes in the future, and I’m already enjoying some rewards with all my children, including the adult ones.
At least I didn’t have to listen to her lies in court….of course she was the victim.
(Jofary…your toddler and the molestation…was there ever any legal activity on that?)
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Wednesday, 11 March 2009 @ 11:51am
holywatersalt says:
I just read an article on “how to” interrogate a psychopath- I am sorry you learned this lesson.
I posted it here:
http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com/
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Wednesday, 11 March 2009 @ 12:06pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jofary,
Thanks for sharing, and I can’t even imagine how you must have been stunned by the “IN-justice” system.
Your advice is sound and “get it iin writing” is ALWAYS good advice with the Ps–it makes it so much easier to prove they are LYING if they put it in writing.
Jim, glad you are doing well—it makes me shake my head in wonder everytime I read one of these articles—reminds me how gullible other people are (not just US!)
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Wednesday, 11 March 2009 @ 2:42pm
Matt says:
Jofary:
I admire you for managing to keep a roof over your children’s heads and still grapple with the debt — to say nothing of protecting your daugheter against sexual abuse –all while you were in school.
Many of us feel like we were weak for letting the sociopath get away with for as long as we did. It took me awhile before I realized that a friend was speaking the truth when told me “You’re an incredibly strong man. I would have buckled by now from what S has put you through.”
I won’t try to second guess what your lawyer’s strategy was for not having you supply documentary evidence. However, at the end of the day, the best evidence is always documentary evidence.
We we all want to be heard by the S. We all want our day in court. We are looking for justice and vindication. As you discovered, when it comes to a sociopath, we’re never going to get it because they lie and lie and lie.
The truth of the matter is you can’t argue with what’s in black-and-white, and preferrably notarized.
For what it’s worth, you probably wouldn’t have come out much differently on the asset split. The courts would probably say “You had to pay for a place to live. Whether you paid rent to a landlord or a mortgage payment to a bank, doesn’t matter.” And the other big problem, as you are well aware, is that it doesn’t matter how you agree to apportion the debt — if the sociopath doesn’t pay, you are on the hook.
Again, you are an incredibly strong woman and I hope you can continue to keep your kids away from this monster.
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Wednesday, 11 March 2009 @ 2:55pm
shabbychic2 says:
Jofary: Thank you for the very good advice, which could also come in handy in some other type of court situation! His performance in court sounds disgusting, not to mention everything else he did.
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Wednesday, 11 March 2009 @ 7:50pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear Jofary,
I’m so sorry you went through this.
The S/P/Ns in our lives have proven extremely good at fooling most of the people most of the time. When it comes to the arena of group dynamics, they are absolutely able to sway a mob in any direction they please.
It stands to reason they can lead a judge around by the nose with verbal testimony. Even the dumbest S/P/N is more convincing verbally than the brightest normal. Don’t ask me why. It’s one of those mysteries of the universe.
Any time it’s us against them, our challenge is to get people to examine the FACTS, irrespective of the dramatic performance of the S/P/N. Documents are our allies, and ultimately education is the deciding factor. If the person weighing the evidence doesn’t know what an S/P/N is well enough to recognize the symptoms in black and white, we’re still SOL.
Sometimes people ask me about the professional qualifications of two cluster Bs I know. I always say, “He’s reliable in his work habits and technically capable. Do a background check before you hire him to work within your ministry. If he passes the background check, hire him.” Tragically, they NEVER perform the background check. Both men pass personal interviews with exceptional ease. Those background checks are never performed. What those background checks would have revealed is a real eye opener.
Both men’s disorders are laid out in black and white in their background checks. They’re just over 50. Their background checks could be used as textbook samples of typical life histories of cluster Bs. The trouble is, after people have gotten a dose of these men’s persuasive capabilities, they are pretty much mesmerized.
Any time we’re dealing with cluster Bs, we need to stick to documented facts. In court, in employment, in contracts, in any conceivable situation where reality matters, the glamor of the S/P/N must be countered with proven facts, education and reason.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 5:40am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Jofary,
The privacy of the victim is important in cases of child molestation. We are not entitled to details of what your child experienced.
I am interested in knowing the nature of the evidence you were able to present in this regard. Did you have any documentation of physical evidence? Were their professional opinions of your child’s degree of trauma? Was there any documented evidence your ex was interested in child pornography?
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 7:56am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Elizabeth Conley…I’d kind of asked the same question…any legal trail? Details…you’re right.
That’s my concern…what my daughter is exposed to. My lawyer said, re the boyfriend “Unless he’s a convicted child molester, there’s nothing you can do.”
Well, I checked for a criminal record, found the handgun permit…documented the fact he was actually married to his wife…
Now we have his son, 23, turn up…”spending time” with my 13 year old daughter…just out of “rehab” for drugs and alcohol…with a 2 yr old son. His ex-girlfriend flaunts her “bi” personna on Myspace…chaos to the max!
I warned my daughter…if they leave you alone in the house with him…call me immediately…she already has an intuitive dislike for him.
The legal system…justice…blind in more ways than one!
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 8:30am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Jim,
Thank God your daughter is 13. I’m glad the lass has some common sense. I think your daughter should tell Mom she doesn’t want to be alone with the boyfriend’s son. That’s the sane thing to do, at least it would be with a psychologically well mother.
The idea that perversion and crime are simple “lifestyle choices” as valid as any other is carrying judicial impartiality to a ridiculous extreme.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 8:52am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Elibabeth Conley…
“I think your daughter should tell Mom she doesn’t want to be alone with the boyfriend’s son. That’s the sane thing to do, at least it would be with a psychologically well mother.”
Yeah, well, like you said…it’s complicated. Short take…there are two houses, or three. Mom’s (ex-tox) house. His wife’s house (he filed divorce over a year ago…not completed yet…no minor children.) His house…he “bought” a house about 8 months ago…mom and my daughter were going to “move in” last August, but his “rehab” son moved in there til he “gets on his feet”…Anyway, my daughter was “left alone” with rehab boy once at his house…for about an hour….when I found out, I told my daughter…if that ever happens again, call me!
Then again, a few months ago, on a school night, my ex-tox wanted to leave my daughter alone for the night, the whole night…while ex-tox spent the night at his house. My daughter kicked up a fuss and that didn’t happen. Once again, I said…call me!
My ex-tox tries to force her “new family”…married to someone else boyfriend, his two adult sons, grandson…on my two adult daughters…planning “outings”, barbeques, holidays…I get feedback that isn’t going too well…LOL
So “sane” and “psycholologically well mother” may not apply here.
Two weeks after ex-tox moved out from our home during the divorce (3 years ago), he began to show up at mom’s new place, within a month or two spending the night there. My daughter (10 at the time) got lies or “you’re too young to understand” in answer to her questions about him.
I’ve made one promise to my daughter: “You will never come to my house and find a woman here you haven’t met before. When you are here, no woman will visit and “know her way around my house” unless you’ve met her before.”
(My daughter’s not stupid!)
So far, I’ve kept that promise.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 9:48am
learnthelesson says:
Jim – If it werent for my father, I dont know where I would be today. He stood up to the plate, got custody (our situation was extreme with my mothers illness) and provided us with safety, security, direction and a sense of balance. Somewhere along the way I didnt (get,grasp, have) enough self respect/worth/trust… but I always always knew I had my father to turn to and that he loved me unconditionally. Your daughters not stupid is right!! You are teaching, giving, caring and sharing self respect, self worth and self trust with her. Thats what its all about in my book!!
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 10:10am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Jim,
“tries to force her “new family”…married to someone else boyfriend, his two adult sons, grandson…on my two adult daughters…planning “outings”, barbeques, holidays…”
We have a widow in our family who tried to pull that one with us. Her new boyfriend was a convict and a child molester, his kids were alcoholics, con artists and convicts – yes, all of them except a minor child he conceived at the age of 55 with a 13 year old child!
This widowed family member is dear to us, but her desperation to find companionship scares us to death. We saw through the boyfriend immediately, and have been dodging her “new family” fantasies for years. Several of us have federal jobs and security clearances. Involvement with her fantasy family could destroy us.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 10:22am
Elizabeth Conley says:
P.S. – She’s run through her dead husband’s life insurance and savings. She’s gotten a 2nd mortgage. Money is getting tight and the boyfriend and his kids are starting to make themselves scare.
Good riddance!
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 10:25am
Matt says:
Elizabeth Conley:
“Several of us have federal jobs and security clearances. Involvement with her fantasy family could destroy us.”
I was approached about a federal appointment about 3 months into my relationship with S. I remember a friend of mine said to me “Let’s see. A federal judge with a federal ex-convict boyfriend. Something is wrong with this picture.”
Needless to say, I declined the appointment. Wise judgment? Absolutely. Of course, the fact that I stayed with that freak show another 10 months could lead one to believe that my judgment was questionable, at best.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 12:10pm
Midnight_Reflection says:
Having a clearance has made me think twice about hanging out with some toxic people I’ve met. I used to have a very laissez-faire approach towards people, my general attitude was if you’re an adult what you do on your own time is none of my business. But I’ve realized that by hanging out with people who smoke pot, or have criminal records, if I don’t say anything they take it as silently condoning the behavior. My sister used to hang out with kids who shoplifted and my dad warned her she would be judged by the actions of her friends. It isn’t fair, but it’s true.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 1:39pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Midnight Reflection,
“Having a clearance has made me think twice about hanging out with some toxic people I’ve met.”
My husband retired from the Marines about 5 years ago. OK, so there are a few Psychos, but generally it was a fairly sheltered world. I was 40+ when I first lived as an adult in the civilian community. What a revelation! About 3 years ago we identified the N. My husband warned me: “Watch your acquintances. Being near people like him could wreck your reputation.” I tried to do better. About 4 months ago I quit working with the S. I was really ashamed to admit to my husband what I dumb-bunny I’d been – AGAIN!
About 22 years of adult living in the military community – 1 P. About 5 years of living in the civilian community – 1 N, 1 S and two hard to specify – probably Borderlines. Innumerable sightings in the broader community. Two encountered in church, two encountered while dealing with our family. (No, we hadn’t spent much time with family before we retired. What a shock regular contact proved to be!)
I’ve had a crash course in cluster B. Hopefully I’ve wised up. That being said, I’ve only been “cluster B free” for 4 months. Wish me luck.
Think twice?! We all should. I’ve gotten so gunshy it’s funny. I just hope it works.
The stakes are high. We all want to live in joyfully in peace. That means no cluster B. They’re human wrecking balls.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 2:04pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Midnight and Elizabeth,
“Birds of a feather flock together” is true, because people who are “alike” in their moral compass tend to hang out together. Drunks hang out with drinkers, gamblers with gamblers, cheaters with cheaters, etc.
Now that doesn’t mean you won’t meet a psychopath DISGUISED as a priest, prophet, politician, or rabbi, but generally people hang out with “their own kind.”
One example I remember that made the hair on the back of my neck stand up was a friend of mine (male) was divorced from a P and she had custody of their two kids. I had never met this woman and one day he was ALLOWED to see his kids, and I went with him and met her and her new BF.
The woman was DIRTY in her person and she had most of her teeth missing in front, and she weighed at least 300 good solid pounds, and her BF would have been an UPSCALE MODEL. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? She was absolutely UN-attractive, and here she was with a really stunning looking man, living with him even.
Well, later we found out this guy liked little girls (the daughter was 5) and guess what he was doing? YEP, you are right, full intercourse. A few months later the x-wife let the father have custody and shortly thereafter we found out the truth. Though we tried hard to persue this legally, no one would listen.
Later, he got custody of the little boy and if you would give this then-four year old some tobacco and a rolling paper he could roll a pretty good “Joint” and even smoke it the way marijuana is smoked–taking a deep inhale and holding it.
He also had an amazing vocabullary for his age. He did not know the word for “book” or colors but he had made up names for colors, yellow was banana, red was apple, and burnt orange was “cat food.” Though the dad got therapy for these kids and was a wonderful loving father, the damage to these too kids was too severe, plus who knows how much genetic influence was involved too, and they eventually went off the “deep end” into crime and drugs. I actually think this sweet little girl was either a P or a BPD later by the time she was 14 or 15. I lost touch with them and their story after that.
Sometimes just by the appearance of two people “not belonging together” you can see that there is SOMETHING ROTTEN IN DENMARK—why would a college prof hang out with a bunch of illiterate people? Why would someone with a good job hang out with a bunch of winos living on the street? Why would a nice girl hang out with a group of whores? Why would a person who never drank hang out with a bunch of drunks and go to bars?
Many times I have observed that Ps hang out with people who are not in their “social group” either financially, mentally, etc. They many times either seek to climb the ladder but don’t quite know how (like Matt described his P) or they skinny DOWN the ladder like someone else’s (I forget who–CRS) who hangs out with the biker chicks and undershirt-attire crowd.
After my P-son morphed into the “oppositionally definant” version, he dropped his smart and nice friends like a hot potato and started hangiing out with the flunk-out crowd from the lower socio-economic groups around. I think it was because it made him feel so SUPERIOR to them…their english was bad grammar, their parents drove “beaters” or they lived in the slums etc. We weren’t “rich” or drove fancy cars, but they were fairly new, clean and neat and had all the fenders the same color and none of the fenders was falling off. Our jobs were professional ones, not working at McDonald’s or cleaning sewers.
I just don’t want to hang around with “trash” cause I’m NOT trash, so the “wife swapping” group is out, the “biker gangs” are out, the local drug pushers don’t interest me, and the drug users don’t either, can’t even hang with the local bank ROBBER (one) cause he’s in prison now (though I did know him) so guess I will just have to hang around with the boring folks who don’t do drugs, don’t cheat on their spouses, don’t beat their spouses, and don’t rob banks. Yep, BORING IS GOOD!
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 5:20pm
eyeswideshut says:
Holy Cow, Oxy et al, these stories are enough to make ones hair stand on end. Even by P standards.
The scariest bit is that the condition has a genetic factor and cannot be treated. What then are we to do? If they conceive more children than they can care for, they don’t care. If they destroy the normal children they do have? They don’t care. If we put them in a cell with a loop of all their damage and destruction playing 24/7 they would not care.
How can society as a whole, derailed by the actions of these disordered people, throughout history I suppose, right itself? How can we be serious about a justice system, and protecting our citizcens from the chaos they create, while preserving a system that is sociopathic to it’s core?
Here is the dilema, as I see it:
1) All you need is love
2) PSN’s cannot love
3) But we do
Other than good actions on our part, and avoidance, what are we to do?
I would wager that in no time in civilization have more S’s held positions of power and been able to communicate easily with each other.
At the same time, the power of communication has gone global, as we blog here on LF and educate and uplift, and millions of interactions between loving as well as predatory people now go on every hour of every day.
I know for myself that coming to recognize these deficient people in my own experience and in the big picture is both empowering and frightening.
What is especially frightening is all the loving and well intentioned people that will not hear you call a liar a liar, until it is too late.
The Beatles once again,
“All I want is some truth, just gimme some truth…”
Peace all,
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 6:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Eyes wide shut,
Yep, it is scary isn’t it? The politicians, the greedy CEOs who are “entitled” to millions of dollars in bonsuses for companies they drove into the ground.
A friend sent me a news article clip from 1999 today about Freddie Mac and Fanny May giving way to pressure from the Cllinton administration to grant home loans to people who had bad credit or were unable to put down a down payment.
Banks doing social engineering, and we see what the results are. Millions of homes being foreclosed, etc. because “easy” credit was given to people who had no chance of repaying loans that quickly changed interest rates. But the companies who made these loans picked up fat fees for them, and the adminstration took credit for all these minorities and others being able to get “homes of their own” and part of the “American dream”—while forgetting that you have to EARN your dream. I’m not against a hand up, but hand OUTS never work. They just create people who are dependent.
The truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off!
Yes, the Ps reproduce, and I read somewhere that in the projects in England they estimate that 25% of the children born there now are sired by Ps. That’s scarry for sure! Look at all the teens having babies now, not because of lack of birth control but having Larry’s “love child” means that you are better than the other 6 girls he is sleeping with at the same time and that he will love you more. Yep, I heard one 14 year old SAY THOSE WORDS….she didn’t count on the fact that Larry had 2 other babies in the oven by two of the other girls she was compeating with for Larry’s affection.
Unfortunately, that girl is not by herself, there are millions of others just like her producing kids by the Ps–or, they are the Ps, or both parents are Ps. I don’t know a way to stop it or slow it down. We hve birthcontrol information and help out there for these kdis, but getting them to USE IT is another problem. I can only sit and shake my head and pray for our society!
I imagine that in the days we lived in tents and caves, that the Ps probably sired most of the kids even in those days, or took all the food so he/she could survive, not worrying about the rest of the members of the tribe. In some ways, I can even see it as a benefit in survival if resources are very limited, which they have been until recent decades in most of the world, and still are in much of the world. Take what you need or want and don’t worry about the rest of the people, let them starve or eat “cake”—you don’t care as long as you get what you need or want. Dog eat dog.
I’m still glad I’m not like that though. I’m still glad that the majority of people are not that way either. I’m afraid that I would not be happy living in a world where I was the only “true loving caring human” but nice to know I am not alone in that aspect either. I am just going to do my best to survive and prosper and stay as far away from “them” as I can. Fortunately, most of us DO have a choice, lots of folks in 3rd world countries don’t have a choice. Lots of women in ARabia don’t have a choice of whom they marry, or a choice to leave him. India, ditto. So I thank God that I live where I do, it may not be perfect, but from the majority of the world I have seen, it is much much MUCH better than most.
OS
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 7:50pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Ox Drover,
Boring is beautiful, and I admit to having recently become something of a snob. We’ve reconnected with our oldest and dearest friends, and sticking to them like glue. They’re geeks like us, and it feels very comfortable. The church we’re settling into is solidly middle to upper middle class, and that fits too. I thought our social connections would be more diverse after Dan retired, but actually we’re living a more segregated lifestyle than ever before. We’ve segregated ourselves, not by race or income, but definitely by education and interests.
I feel sad, because the romantic in me was really passionate about the ministries I had served when I encountered the N and the S. But there’s no denying that the two men did flock together, were part of the same twisted subculture, and lived to play head games. In retrospect, expecting them to be appreciably different from each other was unrealistic. Further, It should have been obvious that their lifestyles and personalities weren’t appreciably different from that of the troubled community we were supposed to serve.
If I hadn’t been so mesmerized by what they said, I would have noticed how they lived. All the warning signs were there.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 9:16pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy…I should stay off this subject, but let’s remember, the P targets the victim, who has tendencies to be “fooled” by the LIE of the P. Once the victim’s available supply, financial and emotional, is sucked out…the P is on to the next target. And the victim is blamed and smeared, and “others” don’t “get it.”
They buy into the LIE and the smear.
Housing. There is roughly $11 trillion dollars of mortgage debt in the US. Fannie and Freddie “hold” or “guarantee half of it, or $5.5 trillion. Property values have dropped 20% and total value of residential real estate in the US is about $20 trillion. Less than 10%-15% of the $11 trillion is in default or foreclosure. This is the view from the P’s running the show at the top…government and Wall Street Financials.
We victims buy a house…we are told by the P’s we qualify and the value will rise. If we don’t have 20% down or finance over 80% of the appraised value, we have to pay for PMI (private mortgage insurance) or LMI is “in there” (lender mortgage insurance) to cover THE LENDER against loss if we default.
So the P’s take our mortgage (and all other debt they can find)…they slice, dice, sell, bundle and “securitize” it, sell it and “insure” it against “risk”…six to ten times it’s original value. and resell and resell…collecting fees “free money” at each transaction….until the house of electronic cards collapses.
The PMI policy the homebuyer is paying for protects the LENDER against loss….so why is there a loss to the lender on the mortgage default?
Does it add up? By being fooled by the P, the victim stupid, irresponsible homeowner, defaults on 10% of $11 trillion dollars of mortgages covered by insurance he has paid against the lender’s loss .
The global financial markets lose, and governments (victim taxpayers including stupid homebuyers) bail out, $20 trillion+ of P “losses”.
Do the math.
The P’s take the money, blame the homebuyer…victim. The classic P lie….it makes no sense, and we join in with the P and his lie…blaming the victim.
Doh!
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 9:42pm
Matt says:
Jim:
Part of the problem with what I call the “magic mortgages” is that there was no PMI on them. YOu couldn’t afford 20 percent down? Not to worry, we’ll lend it to you on a piggyback loan. So, the original mortgage was still only 80 percent and didn’t require PMI. Make sense? No, not to me either, but that’s they way they sold this crap.
Magic mortgages are based on something we’ve discussed on this site continuously — magic mortgages. Yes, the lenders dreamed up these half-baked schemes. But, what about these people who borrowed them. I want to scream when I hear them say “I didn’t understand what I was getting into.”
YOu know what? I”ve looked at some of these loan products — and I have not one, but two law degrees — and I can’t tell you what they’re about. However, if you are signing on the dotted line for a million dollar home and you are making 17 thousand a year, your common sense should kick in and say “Whoa, Nellie! No way I can make that monthly payment.”
So, I’m afraid the victim’s don’t get a free pass for me. Basic rule of life is if you don’t understand what you’re signing, you don’t sign it until you have somebody explain it to you real clear.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 9:56pm
Matt says:
Sorry — meant to say magic mortgages are based on MAGIC THINKING.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 9:58pm
OxDrover says:
YEP! MATT you are so right! I look around me at the communities of $250K homes (which in this area would cost $2 million in other areas) that people were buying without any down payment and in some cases borrowing 110% of the value of the home on the idea tht the value of it would GO UP! Now that it is DOWN they are into the lender for 110% but the value of the house is now 80% of what it was so there is NO WAY they can buy out of that so it goes into foreclosure and there are no buyers either.
How these people were sold this bill of goods that they could afford 2 suv’s and a quarter million (or more) house on the salary of a school teacher and a bank clerk I do not have any idea.
It is unbelieveable to me…talk about a Ponzi scheme, they did that with Real estate too—-no one had a conscience when they sold these folks the bill of goods that they could have the American dream of this big house on their salaries. The “victim” also bought into it because it ws their DREAM, just like WE bought into the Ps scheme because it was our DREAM. The RE agent made their 6% commissoon, the banker made the loan, the contractor did okay building the house and everyone won—except the poor smuck stuck with a mortgage he couldn’t pay now they have less than nothing.
Just heard on the news today that there were 240,000 foreclosures filed in February. Up from January.
I agree with your “don’t sign anything til you understand it.” BUT anyone should be able to figure if they have no savings, and use 110% of their income each month to make payments on house and vehicles, there is something going on that it isn’t going to work for long.
I guess I have some of my grandparents’ depression era mentality, but I do my best to spend less than I make. To do without something I can afford, use things, and “use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.”
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 10:10pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Ok, that post disappeared…so let’s go to an older, wiser, biblical rule: neither a borrower nor a lender be….
carry on…we agree and disagree…
We’ll see where it takes us.
By the way Oxy…nevermind….
G’night.
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 10:36pm
learnthelesson says:
Jim/Oxy/Matt-
“We victims buy a house…we are TOLD by the P’s we qualify and the value will rise”
What in the heck are we doing relying on anyones crystal ball that we qualify and blindly trusting that the value will rise…. We know what we have,what we can afford, and that its a crap shoot as to the value rising…we choose to become the victim when we put our self worth and self trust into the hands of someone wanting to seal the deal for their own benefit… IF WE DONT HAVE 20% TO PUT DOWN OR CANT FINANCE 80% – PERHAPS WE SHOULD LOOK FOR A HOUSE WE CAN AFFORD – INSTEAD OF FALLING INTO THE P’S TRAP.
IS IT THAT THE P’S TAKE THE MONEY OR THE POTENTIAL HOMEOWNER HANDS IT OVER TO THEM ON A WING AND A PRAYER — WITH EYES CLOSED, HOPING DREAMING THAT THE P ISNT A P, BUT AN HONEST UPFRONT BUSINESS MAN WANTING THE BEST FOR THE HOMEOWNER AND HIS FAMILY.
People were sold the bill of goods – because they wanted to believe and live their fantasy…so they tossed reality and caution to the wind and said where do I sign… and the P said… right here on the dotted line… THANK YOU VERY MUCH. C YA.. Oh and by the way did you read the small print…(red flags) you need to put down 20% or finance 80% and incase you really dont qualify or if the value decreases you need to pay for PMI/LMI… Nice to meet you. Id love to stay and chat, but Im off to buy a new house myself with the money I just made on your deal. Technically I can afford it if it was my only residence but its my third, and well the cars and boats and mistresses add up… so Ill probably add more to the choas and just finance it too!
Its a little bit of both… the lender and the buyer… need to rethink/revamp the way business is done… honestly and realistically
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Thursday, 12 March 2009 @ 11:25pm
OxDrover says:
BUYER BEWARE!
I guess maybe in some ways I got a good financial education because of my depression era grandparents. My egg donor was born in 1929. My grandparents were marginal farmers anyway and thrifty, and hard working, planned well, and lived on what they grew and made, didn’t go into debt except for their land which they had to buy most of from the estate of my grandfather’s father who died in 1926.
They worked like slaves to get this land, and didn’t buy things they couldn’t afford. My egg donor was a school teacher and then later an accountant, my step father was a school teacher so we never had much money, but they managed it well and saved a little bit every pay day. She’s still cashing the 30+ year old US savings bonds they bought for $12.50$ every pay day, each one pays out about $200 now with the interest over the years added to the principle for 30 years.
I grew up earning my own spending money, chopping cotton for $3 for a 10-hour day when I was 12, hauling hay for 5 cents a bale, got my first “real” job in 10th grade, working in a pharmacy during the summer and after school, and all day saturday during the school year.
Learned to save, budget, and balance a check book. I’ve been broke since then, while I was in college got down to $1.37 in my checkking account, and invested the money into a nickle ante poker game and won enough for groceries that week. Wrote and sold magazine articles and cleaned other people’s houses, bartered, raised my own food even while going to school, and did without or made do. Now I don’t owe a soul a dime, and times are tough, prices going up, money staying the same, 401K out the window, so that’s no cushion like I thought it was. I brought up my kids to learn to save up, pay their bills and work an honest day for an honest pay, but to whatever it took to find a job. Get an education, but work hard. Don’t be too proud to take a job “beneath” you if that is what you have to do.
This house is only the second house I ever owned, paid cash for both of them. AFter we moved here, kept the other house and a small MIL house on the property to rent out (good decision) decided a while back to sell the 2 rental units (another good choice as I sold at the top of the market). Did a lot of the construction here myself (I can float sheet rock with the professionals) which kept the cost down for a nice home.
I’m not any financially smarter than a lot of people, but I don’t “dream” big dreams that I am not sure I can pay for. One of my husband’s friends who was a financial consultant advised me to mortage the rental units and “leverage” my money and buy 10 more units and have them ALL paying rent. I thought about it, might could have paid them all off in 10-15 years (if the RE market hadn’t crashed) but I kept thinking that if the renter didn’t pay one month, or I had a dead beat, I didn’t have to scramble to pay the mortage on the rental unit, so I never did “leverage” against them. He died richer by far than I ever was, but I played it safe and in the end, I think I made the right decision.
I have been advised by financial people who were conservative to have at least six months worth of living expenses tucked away….which means doing without a lot of things sometimes instead of dipping into that fund. I accumulated my “living fund” a buck at a time sometimes, but I always put something into the fund each month.
I look at my spending, and since the down turn we have cut out a lot of”little” things that over the course of a year add up to hundreds of dollars. Instead of buying bottled water, we refill the bottles to take with us. We seldom go out to eat any more or stop in and pick up a few cokes (sodas). I stopped the cable, the house telephone, turned the thermostat back this winter, did some winterizing on the house. Turn off lights if we leave the room. All these things add up to a big savings at the end of the year. We don’t just zip into town for a loaf of bread, but shop once a week at most (we live 13-18 miles from town) and do all our errands in one town while we are there. I cook basic foods and plenty of them, but do not buy chips and “junk” foods or empty calories.
This year I am going to grow a garden again for the first time in a long time, and we will have home grown meat, milk, eggs and veggies. I have a small fruit orchard but I planted it in the egg donor’s yard to keep the deer away, so will have to buy fruit. I like us to have a balanced diet so we try to do that too. I keep a supply of basic foodstuffs, flour, beans, cooking oil, rice, corn meal, bread, powdered milk, sugar, and a few other things frozen in case of emergency. The Mormons have the right idea on that keeping a supply of emergency food, I think. I don’t have a year’s supply like they do, but enough for 2-3 months before I have to kill Fat and Hairy for meat. LOL
I’ve always tried to run my finances like a “business” so that there is more income than there is outgo, and that I am not “eating up” the profits every month by “high living.” I live comfortably, but “thrifty” and I even have indoor plumbing and electric lights—I wish that dog would run faster on the tread mill my screen is getting dim! LOL
I grieves me that so many people get out of highschool or college and have NO IDEA how to manage finances to their own advantage—it is just keep on spending til the credit card company won’t finance any more. Or not make one payment on something, so you can keep them from repossessing the car. I’m working with a young man now, just coming out of a short marriage with a psychopath and he is in deep financial trouble and has NO IDEA HOW TO HANDLE IT. Totally ignorant of financial things. Works hard and is respoonsible but IGNORANT TO THE MAX. Not stupid, just ignorant, and his parents didn’t teach him jack about handling finances.
He is a willing and eager student, but I’m not sure he can dig himself out without declaring bankruptcy at this point. His soon to be X just didn’t make the car payments for 4 months although he was telling him she was, then becuse the car was re-po’d (which now means he has another added debt to it) she burned the divorce papers instead of giving them back to the lawyer! Typical P! I coulda predicted that one without a crystal ball, but he didn’t even think to check if she was actually making the payments! He is also in the “toy department” with several nice “toys” he couldn’t afford and now has to keep paying on or give them back and still incur the debt.
I AM grateful to the egg donor for the financial advise and teaching that she gave me—-it has helped me throughout my life. I may not be “rich” but being out of debt and my house paid for puts me among the “richest 2% of the US population.” Right up there will Bill Gates! ROTFLMAO.
You guys have a good night, I am going to bed. The dog will have me up at the crack of daylight.
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 12:52am
learnthelesson says:
Oxy – You did it your way.. you trusted yourself…you made decisions based on what you had, what you could afford… and there AINT A DERN THING WRONG WITH PLAYIN IT SAFE!!! TOWANDA
Love the poker story…. I recently learned how to play Texas Hold Em at a charity event and am hooked! Lol Never played before and now play in World Poker Tour Amateur Poker League once a month – (play for fun.. no money…and the prizes for first and second place are TV’s, restaurant certificates, etc. its a fun night for sure)
And bite your tongue about Fat and Hairy… I AM BOINKING YOU FOR THAT ONE…. The LF Mascotts til the end!!!
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 10:18am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy, Matt, learnEDthe lesson….
“Oxy…I should stay off this subject,”….me, last night
LOL, I knew it. And I concluded from the answers, Bernie Mad(e)off is not a “P”….those people who gave him that money should have known better…their fault, they weren’t targets or victims, either.
Some other place, some other time….in the future, we’ll see how it turns out….as the P’s multiply!
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 11:13am
learnthelesson says:
Jim – Bernie is a P –and the people who gave him money should have protected THEMSELVES. ITS BOTH. ITS BOTH.
The P’s continue to multiply and the others continue to give them what they want because they arent protecting themselves.
I truly do not belong in this conversation either …lol… no expertise with any of it… except I noticed the P’s lack honesty and the others lack reality… = The state of the world today.
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 11:32am
learnthelesson says:
Im off to class. Enjoy the weekend everyone. Cant find my sunglasses and I dont even care today! LOL
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 11:36am
OxDrover says:
Dear LTL—and Jim—
QUOTE LTL: “The Ps lack honesty and the others (victims) lack reality”
WOW!!!! WHAT A GREAT ONE LINE SUMMATION OF THE P-EXPERIENCE.
They sure are NOT honest, and WE sure did NOT have reality, we focused on the DREAMS.
It is the same with these people who bought houses and toys they could not afford, they focused on the dream and the desires to have the “big house” and the “toys” just like a kid would—believing in Santa Claus telling them they could have anything and everything they wanted by just “signing on the dotted line.”
THAT financial lie I never believed, thank goodness! Thanks to my grandparents’ experiences during the FIRST Great Depression of 1929 (there have always been others every few years since Jamestown was settled).
I also believe that much of our spending is “emotion” based rather than logic based. I’ve tried to use the LOGIC basis for spending rather than EMOTIONAL based spending.
Once my cousin (female) was complaining about how broke she was and that her car payment was late, etc. and I suggested that she go to an UPSCALE resale shop we had in our little town that had AWESOME PRICES on GREAT clothes, and she responded “But they wouldn’t have the LATEST FASHIONS THERE.” She and her husband now, 30 years later, are still in financial distress because they do not manage their money well and spend from an “emotional” stand point of “I have to have the latest fashions even if I don’t have the money.”
I have always dressed NICELY for work, but I bought GOOD clothes from the “Upscale resale shop” that had come from people like my cousin. Many of the items even had the original tag on them, showing they had been bought and never worn. I paid about $1-2 for every $10 the garment cost new and it was STILL new.
Now that I have a closet full of classic nice “dress up” and “funeral” clothes, I don’t buy there any more as I seldom wear the ones I have, and so I have “down scaled” to the large Good Will store here for my clothing for around the farm or just casual wear. When they were growing up, my kids were some of the best dressed kids around, and they didn’t even know stores sold clothes, they thought “you bought clothes in someone else’s front yard.” LOL
I actually live in the “style” of someone with an income, after taxes, of about $65-70 Thousand dollar a year, and have everything I need and really want—but I do it on an income of well below the federal poverty line. My vehicles aren’t new, my clothes aren’t the lastest fashions, and I don’t buy a lot of convenience foods or “go out” for dinner very often and we make most of our own “low cost” entertainment with friends. But my house isn’t in foreclosure and I’m happy and well fed, so I guess that makes me a success financially. The apostle Paul advised his disciples to be CONTENT in their status whatever it was. Doesn’t mean don’t have ambitions, but don’t let your ambitions for anything rule your life to your own detriment.
The psychopaths seem to be always WANTING things and are never satisfied with what they have. My own being satisfied with WHAT I have, lends me a lot of peace of mind.
OK, I’ll except the BOINK for hinting that if I got hungry I might eat Fat and Hairy—I couldn’t do it and you know it, though! LOL I might knockk off the Trojan Horse P and eat his fat butt, plenty of lard, but not Fat and Hairy! They’re my babies! LOL
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 12:03pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy…content is good. Peace is good…and as long as Fat and Hairy aren’t roasting in the oven or frying in the skillet…that’s good, too. LOL I’m off the subject discussed earlier. (picture a “smiley”).
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 12:24pm
Midnight_Reflection says:
I’m one of those people who owe 110% on my house. My husband’s aunt bought the townhouse we live in as an investment property with plans to rent it out (this was at the height of the market). Six months later, when it was still unoccupied she offered to let my husband and I move into it at the same rental price we were paying for our apartment with an understanding that we could rent to own when we could afford it. Ha. A few months after we moved in she told us she needed to sell the place to free up more money for other investments and we either needed to buy it or move out. We were not in a very good financial position to buy, but we had just invested a lot of money into moving, so we agreed to do the purchase. She contacted the company she had her mortgage through and we all met. She and the mortgage broker went over our finances and worked out a deal where we would roll our credit card debt, car payments, student loans all into the mortgage to improve our credit. Unfortunately, we didn’t qualify to borrow enough to cover all the debt, but the aunt graciously said she would pay off my husband’s car and take over my student loan payments so we could afford the townhouse (so she could get rid of it). We were not entirely happy, but we agreed. Fast forward a few months, my husband’s car is paid off, but the aunt starts asking when we will be able to take over payments on the student loan again. She continued to make the payments until my husband and I separated. Once we got back together we were stuck with even more debt and the student loan, but we were exactly breaking even each month with a roommate renting out one of our bedrooms. Tack on an unexpected pregnancy, several unreliable roommates, and the only way we’re near breaking even is with money from our income tax return and help from my parents. We’ve never had big dreams, just a roof over our heads and food to eat. It would be nice to foreclose and just walk away, but my husband and I take responsiblity for our poor financial decisions and will continue making whatever sacrifices we need to to pay our bills. And the other valuable lesson we learned from this, don’t trust his aunt.
I do wish they had a class, or a seminar, or something in high school that dealt with the basics of personal finance. My parents make three times as much money as me and my husband, but they’ve also wasted more money than I’ve made this far in my life, they couldn’t give me any financial advice when I was growing up because they were just as in the dark as I was. Everything I’ve learned this far has been through trial and error, with lots of errors.
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 1:30pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Midnight,
I see the same need in highschool for a class, and especially in college. The university I went to had lots of good mandatory classes, one was learn to swim. At the time I went to university I did NOT know how to swim and I was FORCED to learn. I’m still not a good swimmer, but I did learn.
I never had any financial classes in college about finance, and I did have ONE “business law” course in highschool that was really a good class. When I transferred schools due to a move, the new school had nothing to compare to that class. It explained the basics of law, what a tort was, etc. and how the legal system is supposed to work. LOL
My egg donor being an accountant and in the financial business and handling her own finances very well, she taught me that, as well as my family did instill a work ethic and a frugality chip in my systems. LOL
I know that there are many other “unsuspecting” people got dragged into the Real Estate “balloon” (blow up and bust). It is a shame because they did NOT have the financial management knowledge and took what they thought of at the time as “the best” options. Back again to “Buyer Beware” and so many people, they said on the news last night who would like to file for divorce are still forced to live together in the same house because they can’t afford to leave it and get separate residences.
Bankruptcy filings and foreclosure filings are going up up UP every day. Ah la 1929 I think, but then I am a cynic about that sort of thing. I’ve made some BAD investments in the past and some DUMB financial decisions that cost me a LOT of money, and so did my late husband, but I was fortunate that I held the line at getting into debt for consumer stuff I didn’t need or couldn’t pay for unless everything went lovely! Now that things are NOT lovely, for me or the economy, those lessons I learned early on are paying off for me. The “unreliable renters” were the reasons I sold those rental properties, and I was fortunate it was at the top of the balloon, it had just started to sink a little when I put then up for sale and they sold. Thank goodness or I would be pan handling now. “Will work for jack ass feed!”
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 1:56pm
Midnight_Reflection says:
I told my cats if things get much worse they’re going to have to go out and get jobs.
We are very fortunate in my job, I just got a raise that will go into effect at the end of the month which will allow us to continue living without roommates since we haven’t been able to find a new one since the last one moved out with no notice in December. Having roommates is like marrying a complete stranger, you rely on them to help pay the bills, keep the house clean, but you don’t really know what they’re like until you’ve been living with them for awhile. With a 14 month old in the house sleeping in the room next to the one we used to rent out, we decided it would be better to do without than risk letting the wrong people in.
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 2:30pm
OxDrover says:
Midnight,
I still say you are a smart cookie! I think that is a rational decision and a good one! “Marrying a complete stranger.” I had a guy apply for a rental property once that I am sure now was a P. He was driving a nice car (his current female roomie’s) dressed nice (she bought them) but had an FBI FOLDER A FOOT THICK…after “checking his references” and finding he had a domestic disturbance warrant for his current “roomie” (he was supposedly a college student) I found out about him and called the law. But he was so NICE! Aren’t they all? As my egg donor put it after my X-DIL and the TH-P’s arrest “I dont’ understand it, they were so RESPECTFUL of me.” (which I hadn’t been of course, cause I told her the truth!) and yea, it pithed her off! AT ME!
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 2:55pm
Midnight_Reflection says:
Oxy,
Sounds like he was counting on you not checking references because he was so “nice.”
The thing I came to realize is that even if the person you’re renting to is decent, that doesn’t mean their friends are. We had a 21 yr old girl renting from us who was really nice, she even bought clothes for the baby, but she started hanging out with these guys that were pretty shady. One evening I was sitting in my living room watching a movie when she came downstairs with one of her guy friends and met another at the door. The new guy looked at the other guy and said, “hey, you look familiar” then started asking questions about where he had gone to school, where he had worked, and finally asked if he had done time in so-and-so correctional facility. Turns out they new each other from prison, PRISON!
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 3:14pm
OxDrover says:
Ah, yes! The old buddies from the prison! Maybe you should lookk for an old retired lady renter instead of young girls who don’t (yet) have sense enough to stay away from the “bad boys.” Sheesh!
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Friday, 13 March 2009 @ 3:25pm
princesspants says:
My future ex- husband and I were renting the house I now own when the owner of the house offered to sell it to us. We took over there mortgage for a year with a promise to get our own mortgage at the end of the year. Insted of a down payment we agred to put money into the house by relacing all of the windows in the house, 22 for about 10,000 dollars. Four years later and I can’t afford the mortgage partly because my ex is $5000 behind in child support. My divorce will be final at the end of May and I want to sell the house then, but it doesn’t look good. I know I can do a short sale, but I have worked so hard to clean up my credit and my debt I don’t want to lose it! After ending a very complicated marriage with a P I just want to move on and continue to improve my life. When I look back on what I did wrong with the house I’m not sure where I went wrong, maybe like many things in my life latley it is just bad luck?
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 7:52am
passingthrough says:
Jim in Indiana USA said:
It is harmful to conflate bisexuality with depravity and chaos. Bisexual people are not any more likely to behave in harmful ways than people of other sexual orientations.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:10am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
“It is harmful to conflate bisexuality with depravity and chaos. Bisexual people are not any more likely to behave in harmful ways than people of other sexual orientations.”
passingthrough
__________________________________
Well, we all pick out our “issues”….the whole picture, not just the sexuality, was chaos. The “need” to “flaunt”, in the way it was presented, also was an issue for me…whatever…hope you find what you need here. I’ll try not to offend your sensibilities. All are welcome. Carry on.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:19am
Trla says:
Jofary, your letter couldn’t have come at a better time.
I have just returned from court, for a jury trial that my sp-daughter requested, after she was charged with assaulting me, malicious destruction of property, and trespassing. These occurrences were actually the first within 2 days of a similiar occurrence. (Basically, she came in my home within 2 days of each other and assaulted me, without warning)She took the deal in the other case and received probation and was ordered to domestic counseling. This case, she was adamant to fight, rejecting a wonderful deal up to the very end. I had received word of a slanderous blog she had posted about me. I then received an email from her. It was very apparent that her goal was to smear me in court, to no end.
I have been faced with her slanderous assaults on my personality before. I had faced the same assaults from her father, so it was no surprise where these words were coming from. What I fail to grasp, is the “shock” when I am initially slammed with these attacks. They are so wild and crazy…and straight up…Lies. They can be so believeable to an outside audience and leave people actually questioning whether or not they are true! But the initial shock at these unbelieveable lies, catches me off-guard and leaves me speechless as I am trying to comprehend these verbal assaults and lies.
Before court today, I tried to prepare myself for the unbelievable. She had already alluded through an email as to what she intended on doing to me, in court. Mind you, she is the one that came to my home unannounced and attacked me. I am tired of being made to feel like I am the guilty one.
Through my years of dealing with ex-relationships and family and other personal relationships….normal people do not hold grudges and do, get on with their life. Some, even with an emotional break-up, would not offer to slander me or hold a grudge…to this day. So I take these past relationships and maintain, that I am not a bad person. If I was, I am certain that people would have plenty to say.
In conclusion, my daughter took the deal after 3 attempts from her attorney and the prosecutor, just before we walked into court. I am certain she is not finished with me, as she alluded in her email. So I am healing emotionally and still being being watchful…trying to prepare for the next bomb to be dropped. Definitely not the way to LIVE.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:35am
learnthelesson says:
passingthrough – “bisexual people are not any more likely to behave in harmful ways than people of other sexual orientations.” Think we all agree there is no increased link to violence in that regard!
And I didnt interpret Jims comment that way. I interpreted his comments about his ex-tox’s partner and the partners 23 year old son as unfortunately having access to “spend time” with his 13 year old daughter possibly exposing this child to influences he might not voluntarily choose to subject his daughter to (i.e. drug/alcohol rehab, open bi-sexuality, hand guns, adultery, etc.) suggesting that the atmosphere has a chaotic element – that his 13 year old daughter should be able to call her father if ever uncomfortable over there.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:40am
learnthelesson says:
Trla – Nothing like driving you crazy til the very last minute! Im glad you escaped a trial. And I hope you are keeping copies of her emails and anything else you are made aware of (ie. slanderous blogs)..
perhaps a restraining order would be beneficial at this point and the obvious NC…NC…NC!
Glad you are healing. Hope LF helps you get through this as it continues to help me heal too!
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 12:08pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tria,
I am so sorry that this is all happening to you from your daughter. I have a P son, and Rune, another blogger here has one, and I am sure there must be others here who have children that are psychopaths.’
I a glad you are here at LF because this has been such a healing place for me. I know I am NOT alone in this. It has been so difficult for me to let go of the MALIGNANT HOPE that my son, even after murdering a girl, would “repent” and live a descent life. (what on earth was I thinking?)
I too have to keep a vigilant eye out for another attack from my P son, he tried to have me murdered not quite two years ago. I tooo know that he has not given up, and will mount another attack if he is able to. The man he sent to kill me (an ex-coonvict, sex offender, robber, etc. and former cell mate of his) is now out on parole, so I have to keep an eye out for him as well. I actually doubt that he will be the one that my son sends next time, because that man knows both my sons and I are armed and vigilent, but the next man may be a complete stranger.
The wonderful little boy my son was before he hit puberty is the “son” I remember, but that wonderful child is GONE, not to return. The MAN who is trying to kill me is NOT my son, that sweet little boy. It is like, I think, that my “son” died and his organs were given to this man, but this man who hates me is NOT that little boy. The little boy is dead and gone.
I actually had a “private memorial” service for my young son and “buried” him—-I can relate to these people whose kids are kidnapped and they never find a body, etc. the only way I got closure was to BURY and consider my son DEAD. The fact there is some stranger, some adult man who hates me, is a fact I can’t get around, but this MAN is no more to me than any stranger that hated me would be.
I don’t know this man, this evil Charlie-Manson-wanna-be, so there is no emotional attachment to a “son” now. I don’t know if this makes any sense to you at all, or if you feel the same way, but I do know that it worked for me. And, really, I DO NOT know this “man” in prison for murder, I cna’t fathom how his evil mind works. I know he hates me for whatever “injuries” he thinks I have done to him, but he isn’t my “son.”
God bless you, Tria, and welcome to LF…hang around and read articles in the archives and blog with us. This is a great, accepting, understanding and caring group of people here. If ever there was a “community” of people, this is it. (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 12:28pm
learnthelesson says:
Oxy! And I thought I was the ONLY one who wanted a “private memorial” for my ex-tox. It actually crossed my mind, when I was struggling and in a bad place…I told my gf that if I held a private memorial literally walked over to cemetary and layed a flower down on empty space..that it might help me transition to “acceptance” and have closure – it was just that hard for me, never anything like it before. I never did it because in my situation he isnt incarcerated – so along with the chance of running into the “living dead” – I really wanted to work on/work thru my own personal issues of not being able to move on from this person. Bascially I concluded I wanted to make the choice to let him go and live on…so I could focus on becoming a healthy person who makes good choices of balancing self-worth, self-trust and self-love with that of others who earn my friendship and love the natural healthy way.
The journey is sooooooooo long and hard. But the healing and break throughs come in small but timely increments!!! Its good, and if I stay on track it can only get better.
Having a S/P child is an untold journey that thankfully you bravely share with sensitivity and much needed reality.But I could relate to your need for closure and I know I would have had a private memorial service too, if it were my situation. Im glad you were able to do that for yourself.
((hugs))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 12:55pm
OxDrover says:
DEar learned,
AFter my P son was arrested for murder, I went into a downward spiral of depression and grief so deep thqt I look back now and realize I should have been hospitalized. I lost 35 pounds, didn’t sleep AT ALL for 7 days, and didn’t eat for 14. I locked myself in my house and did not see anyone outside my family for 3 months. My friends thought I had dropped off the face of the earth.
Yes, the journey is difficult, but IT IS WORTH IT.
At the time I was in the blue funk, I literally wished he was dead and theh girl arrested for his murder. The community of people will give empathy and sympathy and comfort to the parents of a murdered child but NO ONE GIVES EMPATHY, SYMPATHY AND SUPPORT TO THE FAMILY OF THE MURDERER.
I literally thought about if he had been killed, that people would be filling my house to support me, as it was I was holed up like an animal hiding in its hole. ASHAMED of my son, and taking that shame on to myself. I didn’t feel that I was responsible for his actions or blame myself, but I felt SHAME none the less.
I thought how comforting it would be to close the coffiin lid and know my son was not suffering. Instead, I knew he was in a tough jail situation, a small and young white boy in the minority among pretty tough Mexicans and blacks. He did receive many physical wounds too, broken wrists (x 2) shoulder so dislocated that his arm was essentially useless. 20 years later they finally operated on it. From moment to moment I didn’t know how he was. I felt like a mother whose child had been kidnapped and they didn’t know what was happening to the child. I expected see his face on a milk carton with the question, “Have you seen this child?”
He would call and cry and say “Mom, I didn’t do it!” And I wanted to believe him. Tried to believe him, yet in my heart I knew he did it. It was only a year and a half later, after his conviction at trial, that I spoke to his attorney (public defender) and the attorney, without violating any attorney-client priviledge, told me the EVIDENCE presented in court, that PROVED WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT MY SON DID IT. NO question he did it. Still my son lied and claimed innocence.
Now, 18 years later, he not only admits doing it but is PROUD OF THE HORROR OF IT, and he says “It was much worse than the cops even knew”—when he said that, that was when I KNEW that I HAD to NC him, forever, and deal with my grief. Not only the grief of his being what he is, but the grief of the loss of my own time, efforts, love etc. in trying to “believe” him against what I knew to be the TRUTH. The man who replaced my wonderful little boy was a MONSTER. A dangerous monster. Some how, some way, I had to make my own closure….as we all do….with our psychopaths. I had to work through the grief, the denial, and my own anger at myself for having been in that denial for so long. I had to accept the truth, as painful as it is/was, before I could heal.
I actually had that “memorial” service as a way to come to that closure with a familiar “ritual” of mourning. Though I didn’t have a “body” to bury (like a parent whose child was kidnapped) I buried that “young son” and disengaged myself from the MAN he has become. Just as the memorial service for my late husband commemorated his life, and our loss, it gave me closure, that I will never see him again in this lifetime, but now that I have worked through the grieving of the loss, I can again remember the good times and smile, and even the tough times we had when we were together. He is and will always remain a big part of my life. Even if I remarry, he will still have been part of my life, part of who I am. Finding another man to love (if I ever do) will not take away from the relationship I had with my husband, nor will my relationship with my husband be compared to my “new love” either.
My adopted son D is, I think, God’s way of replacing the son I lost, the son I buried, and he is a joy and a comfort to both me and my other biological son C.
While I realize that my “dead” son’s organs are still functioning inside the body of a “stranger” it is more like after his death his “organs were donated” to someone else. That person would not be my son just because he had my son’s kidney, and heart, and so on.
Even if the PERSON we “lose” is still “the living dead” the RELATIONSHIP is dead, and deserves some kind of symbolic CLOSURE. To me, the “memorial service” just for myself was that closure. I put away all the photographs of my P-son after about age 12, and I still have some favorite photos of him as a little boy around my house. Formerly being a professional photographer I have lots of photographs, but those of the days when my P-son was making my life hell, are not what I want to remember and think about…but I can think about the sweet little boy that was my living son, but lives no more. Is gone, just like my husband is gone. I can think good thoughts about both of them, and smile and laugh about things that happened in our lives. But they are GONE. Both of them.
The symbology of the “funeral” or the “memorial service” I think is important to the survivors of any kind of “loss” of a signifiant relationship.
The fantasy relationship I have had with my egg donor has become apparent in the last couple of years as well, I am in the process of grieving over that too, and have worked on my feelings of anger in that stage of the grieving. I recently (this past week) had a “break through” in this anger stage and I think I am rapidly approaching the final acceptence stage on my relationship with her as well. I no longer even think about her as my “mother” but rather as a biological conduit, the way I think about my P-sperm donor, who was NEVER a father to me. I NC’d him physically 40+ years ago, but only in the last couple of years have I EMOTIONALLY NC’d him, come to accept that he was what he was, and that was simply the toxic man who donated his sperm to give me life, but was never a parent to me, never loved me, nurtured me, etc, but instead abused me like any other narcissistic and toxic psychopath would do, like he did to everyone in his path. I wasn’t even “special,” just another one of his MANY victims, but was fortunate enough that he didn’t kill me (I know personally of two people he killed and I suspect he killed more).
I am getting to the point now, I think, that I can have a “private memorial service” and bury the mother I only imagined I had. Neither of my sons call her “grandma” any more, but both started to refer to her by her given name. I’m starting to think of her that way too. I didn’t plan it that way, or suggest it to them, or they to me, it just seemed to sort of happen. I no longer look upon her with pity at her being “alone” without any family (I am her only child) or care what the “neighbors think” about me having NC with her, and I have NO doubt that she has smeared me to high heaven with her friends and neighbors, and refusing to associate with your “poor elderly sick mother” is a capitol crime in this community, no matter what kind of psychopathic behavior the parent has engaged in. Yet, these same people know for a fact that I took care of my step father and my egg donor 24/7 for 18 months during his illness and her illness and his death, even.
Coming to peace and acceptance with the past, the things you cannot change, is the only way to get on with life. It is a long journey, but the closer to healing you get, the easier it is. Hang on, and don’t get discouraged. (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 9:18pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Oxy,
Life itself is quite the journey isnt it. Im glad you are in mine, through LF. You have shown all of us what “hanging on ” is all about and that if we each choose to find peace and acceptance with the past, and THE THINGS WE CANNOT CHANGE , we can get on with life.
I cannot thank you enough for simply sharing with me, with us, sharing the love, the pain, your life journey, and the choices you made to survive and heal and carry on with your life by loving and taking care of yourself, your children, your friends, and those who earn your respect and love — as well as those that you witness wanting to change their lives for the better.
You are special, dear Oxy. You deserve to be told this and feel it and be ok with knowing and accepting that truth too!
Thank you. (((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:01pm
Stargazer says:
Dear Oxy, I have read your story so many times, but this last post especially touched me. You are a great woman with a heart of gold and a skillet of iron.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:36pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LearnED,
Thank you so much, LearnED. You are a special person yourself. I am so glad that you are getting it and I do hope that some of the things I have experienced can help you cope with your own grief and trauma. So many times I have “coped” (or NOT, as the case may be) with the trauma of a P, not even knowing what had hit me. No one I talked to “got it” or seemed to care. I got to where I didn’t want to share anything with anyone because they didn’t get it (which further invalidated me). I think this not being validated by others for the pain we have felt is difficult for many if not all of us here.
Feeling VALIDATEd here is part of the best part of this healing I think. KNowing that you are NOT alone on this rocky, bumpy, pot-hole-filled road that sometimes feels like mountain climbiing without a rope, helps more than anything else.
It has been very healing for me to be able to “talk” about all this crap and not be criticized for being so “stupid” or for being so “weak” or not “just get on with your life and forget about all this.”
BEcause my late husband did know my P-sperm donor (they had been business partners for a short time many years ago, that was how we met and became friends) my husband believed me. That meant so much to me. In fact, there are quite a few people (including my P-sperm donor’s family) that know him and know what a monster he was. That did, and does, mean a great deal to me.
Please believe me, Learn-ED that I have received more support here at LF than I have ever given. While I do very much want to support and validate other’s pain so that they can feel that they are NOT alone, what I have received in terms of validation here is worth more to me than gold or silver!
Maybe that is the KEY to healing is to know you are not alone, to know that other people do validate your pain, and to an extent to understand because they have encountered the same “alien life force” themselves.
Sometimes I felt like I was telling someone that I had been “abducted by an alien space craft”—I think I might have been more easily believed if I had told them that. LOL
In spite of the pain I have felt over my P-experiences, I now that others have lost so much more than I have. Reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” that he wrote about the emotional pain of being in the Nazi prison camps, made me see that for each of us, our LOSS WAS TOTAL. For him, for me, for you, and for each of us here. We all lost everything and the pain was just as intense for each of us, totally filled our beings. No one was “wounded worse” than another. My story is not worse than yours, or yours worse than anyone else’s.
Settiing our minds to healing, and sticking to that road, encouraging our fellow travelers on the path, and doing our best to live a good life, to do good in this world, to refrain from evil and selfish behavior—that is what makes life worth living. Using the “talents” that God gave us, whatever they are, is a good life and makes the world a better place, even if only in one tiny spot.
When I was a teenager, I thought I could change the entire world, now I know I can only change one small part of it, myself….but even changing that one small thing, DOES change the world, just a bit, for the better. (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Star, I think we posted over each other. Thanks, sweetie! Yep, that’s me, the heart of gold and skillet of IRON! LOL (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:40pm
SuperMom4Ever says:
I too found it difficult to convey the insanity without sounding petty or just an angry ex. Not just to the court, but to others involved in our case. And even to co-workers or new acquaintances.
I found the key was to compile EXCERPTS from what he himself had written. This way, it was not my words, but his that spoke. While I never used that in court, I did use the list to get others up-to-speed. Like the kids’ counselors, court-appointed social worker and the kids’ adlitem. So instead of presenting 100’s of pages for folks to read through and understand, I boiled it down to 3 or 4 pages.
When it became apparent that the divorce was going to get ugly I stopped communicating verbally. Email was how I communicated. I did record some conversations, but never used them. Fortunately for me he wrote a lot.
Despite bizarre behavior my own attorney did not really “get it” until he was personally burned. My ex accused him of deceitful behavior and also sued the firm for slander. It took about 6 months.
Another technique I stumbled into was to have a witness each time we went to court, every hearing on any motion. The kids’ counselor one time. The social worker another. After a couple of hearings the judge had pretty much made up her mind.
One of the motions granted was to get a social study of each home and also a psychological study. This was a good move, it created more independent witnesses.
Even the folks in the legal system who are supposed to be helping are distancing themselves from our case. The judge refuses to sign the written version of the verbal orders she already gave. She refuses to hear the full content of motions brought to court. The court-appointed psychologist seemed to think that he would go after her personally so softened her findings on him and magnified her view of me. The kids attorney does not return my or thier calls and is a no show at court.
Because there is no illegal behavior or broken bones, they don’t want to become his target either. So they do the least they can. I have come to peace with this and understand. The best way to handle this person is to stay away and disconnected. I am sacrificing for my kids. They have their own families and careers to look out for. So if it seems like you are swimming upstream, you are. You are Ginger Rogers. Doing everthing just as good but in heels and backwards.
We have not had a “trial” yet. I obtained full custody via a temporary order. To get this over with he either has to agree to make the order permanent (but this has no chaotic value to him) or we have to go to trial.
I have thought a lot about how I would come across in a trial. Any particular event sounds petty. We all do stupid things on occasion. I believe the strength of my case is in the TRENDS of his actions and his actions documented in his own words. And of course there is my own trend of taking care of the kids.
His abuse has been mental on me and the kids. I met early on with a psychologist who works with law enforcement and he was honest with me. Unless the kid has broken bones or cigarette burns, the law will do nothing. His advice was to provide the kids with a contrast to his actions by emphasizing TRUTH and LOVE. Take every opportunity to overtly value truth and love.
I have had some GREAT support, including his own parents and family. But the legal system does not look at the outrage of actions which are technically legal. And even your good support system moves on to worry about their own life.
So we just keep putting one foot in front of the other.
I agree with one blogger who advised not to have regrets regarding the property settlement. I know that my ex is still proud of himself. He came out ahead, debt free. I have the debt and no cash. The equity I have is in a house that has lost its value and I cannot sell. He does not pay child support. But I am divorced from him. I am starting a new life.
My objective throughout has been to sever my life from his as quickly as possible as much as possible. Although he has tried to end his relationship with the kids (on multiple ocassions) and has questioned the paternity of the youngest (who looks just like him), he continues to exercise his basic visitation. But with this latest order I have control over the kids. So I can provide them stability in their life.
I have obsessed the past 2 years. I knew there were no “do-overs”. There is only one chance. I documented. I called my attorney often. Every moment my kids were with thier dad I was doing my own legal prep.
This was disjointed and too late for the oral trial you had. Maybe there is something that someone else can use.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:41pm
Wini says:
Dearest Oxy: God Bless you. You are the light at the end of the tunnel.
Peace.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:43pm
OxDrover says:
DEar Supermom4ever!!!
Welcome to LF, and BTW you sound like a SUPER WOMAN TOO! Good advice!!! All the way around. Your kids have a great mom! Hat’s off to you!!! I know it must have been a tough road, but you are putting your priorities where they count, with your KIDS and YOURSELF! Glad you are here!
Dear Sweet Wini, Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is an ONCOMING TRAIN! LOL Don’t forget I swing a meeeeaan skillet! ((((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:51pm
Stargazer says:
After I’d been blogging on this site for a month or so, I started talking to a woman that I’d seen repeatedly at the pool. I’d asked her several times to please control her kids, who were very loud and out of control (the noise radiates into my unit). So she never has liked me and always gave me dirty looks. One day I found her in a drunken stupor at the pool. She had fallen and had blood on her face. But she hated me and would not even let me help her to get back to her home. She was obviously troubled, and I felt concerned for her and her children.
This one day, after blogging here for a month, I struck up a conversation with her at the pool about her job as a teacher. After talking for an hour or so, the discussion became more personal. She told me about the ordeal she was going through with her ex-husband, who is a sociopath. He had taken her for 200k and was fighting her for child custody, and it looked like he was winning because she was pretty much beaten down. She suspected he was molesting the kids, too. Because of this site, and my experience with the sociopath, I was able to give her the validation she needed. She had no one to talk to. I directed her to this site. I don’t know if she ever got here or not. I have not seen her since.
Yesterday, I directed a woman who is fighting her sociopathic sister in court to this site.
I cannot believe how many people’s lives have been or are being destroyed by sociopaths. I am so thankful there is a place like this people can come to for help.
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Tuesday, 17 March 2009 @ 11:54pm
Midnight_Reflection says:
“When I was a teenager, I thought I could change the entire world, now I know I can only change one small part of it, myself….but even changing that one small thing, DOES change the world, just a bit, for the better.” Oxy, I feel exactly the same way. I went through a metamorphasis from Idealist to Cynic to Realist, white to black to grey, and there are days when I realize I work with people who are older than my parents who haven’t made it that far.
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Wednesday, 18 March 2009 @ 9:52am
Midnight_Reflection says:
Supermom wrote, “His abuse has been mental on me and the kids. I met early on with a psychologist who works with law enforcement and he was honest with me. Unless the kid has broken bones or cigarette burns, the law will do nothing.” That highlights a few of the things that really get me about our society and our “justice” system, first being that mental abuse is not “as bad” as physical abuse, second being the belief that a child is better off having contact with a toxic biological parent than not having them around at all.
Personally, I think mental and emotional abuse is as dangerous, and in some cases can be more dangerous, than physical abuse. First because it is not recognized, or it is trivialized. My parents told me to never let anyone physically hurt me, to fight back, or go get help, but they never told me about mental or emotional abuse. Second, it’s hard to prove someone is mentally abusing you. It’s hard enough sometimes to prove physical abuse if there aren’t any bruises or scars, what proof can you provide of mental abuse? Even when you have a recording or written proof mental abusers often word things vaguely enough that you’ll get the message they’re trying to send, but they can claim they meant something else. Mental abuse can lead to acts of rage, murder, suicide, and everyone thinks the victim is crazy while the mastermind slips off into the shadows.
Our society struggles to find the right answer in dealing with what is “in the best interest of the children.” It’s such a grey area with so much subjectivity. We try to set rules and regulations, but we can’t apply one rule across the board to all situations. We want to be fair to mothers and fathers, we strive for 50/50 custody while trying to also do what’s best for the kids. In my opinion, we place too much emphasis on blood rights and not enough on actions. Just about anyone can contribute sperm or an egg and create a child, but being a real parent requires a lot more. My husband’s aunt has been trying to get my husband to break NC with his mom for years because “she’s blood.” His mom is an alcoholic drug abuser who gave him away to family members whenever she didn’t feel like taking care of him, he went NC after an incident when he was a teenager and living with her. She got drunk, he was sleeping and she punched him in the face because she was angry over something he hadn’t done. He woke up to her beating on him, he wrestled her to the ground until she calmed down, then he left. When he came back that evening he found out she had called the cops and said HE assaulted HER and he got arrested. The judge dropped the charges after he listened to both of them, but that was the last straw for my husband. His aunt even tried to get me to talk him into calling his mother, which I refused. Toxicity trumps blood relations in my book.
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Wednesday, 18 March 2009 @ 11:38am
OxDrover says:
Yep, Midnight, my late husband had a saying that I always liked. He said “There is 30 years experience, and there is ONE YEAR EXPERIENCE THIRTY TIMES.” so true, so true!
I think I have had the latter, and kept doing the “same thing and expecting different results” I think it was albert Einstein who used that phrase to define “insanity.” At least it has been attributed to him.
Henry Ford said “Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again more intelligently.”
My husband also had written down a short quote (source unknown to me) that said “Life is tough, she gives the test first, then the lesson.” That, too, is very true. I kept flunking subsequent tests even after the “lesson” because I never got the lesson internalized or saw the reason for my failures.
I hope to God that I have “gotten it” down this time, cause I sure don’t want another “remedial class” in psychopathic people! LOL
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Wednesday, 18 March 2009 @ 11:40am
Midnight_Reflection says:
I was “insane” yesterday and could have used a skillet smack to the head. I’ve been working on my boundaries for quite some time now and yesterday I just opened the gate and welcomed in a repeat offender. D’OH!
This lady is THE Gloom Cookie. Besides her general negative attitude, she likes to make unsolicited comments about my personal life, I have unwisely answered too many of her questions about my personal life so now she has no problem asking more, and she violated my physical boundaries when I was pregnant by rubbing my belly even after I told her I don’t like it when people touch me. The only time she isn’t negative is when she’s talking about her neices or my baby, and she threw me a surprise baby shower at work, so I show her pictures of my daughter when I bring them in. I forgot that I had decided not to talk to her about my personal life anymore and just answered her questions when she asked, again. I don’t even know why I was surprised when the comments she made after that ticked me off. I ended up irritated yesterday afternoon and this morning over what she said. Sometimes I need some remedial teaching to get it.
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Wednesday, 18 March 2009 @ 12:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Midnight,
Sounds like you got the lesson without the BOINK! So I will let you slide this time! LOL
Ann Landers had a great comment to people who ask questions that are “too personal” and it was “Now WHY would you ask something like THAT?” Emphasis mine, but you get the idea. PUts them on the defensive.
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Wednesday, 18 March 2009 @ 3:45pm
Trla says:
Thank you Oxy and everyone that has helped me in the past few months. This IS a HEALING place!
It has only been 7 months that I realized my daughter was a sociopath. It’s been 5 months that I realized she is actually a danger to me. That fact is just so hard to grasp. So I come here for a reality-check.
I’ve been cleaning the garage for the past few days. I come across small items that were my daughters. It brings me back to her innocence and sweetness, but it also brings me back to the nightmares that she put me through, even as a young child. The signs were so obviously there! I recognized those signs, but at the time, was led to believe it was ADHD. I accepted that diagnosis and studied, sought out treatment and raised her as you would an ADHD child. It was when she was 13 that she was diagnosed anti-personality disorder and oppositional defiance. I did not fully understand what these meant!!
I am currently going to school and considering changing my major to helping people (victims or families) that are dealing with a sociopath. I had also considered working with the courts to act as a sociopath profiler. I have not yet made this decision.
I spent years dealing with unimaginable things with my daughter and I know my experiences would be a level plane for a family in crisis. I KNOW now, I was not in this alone as I felt for so many years with no help. I will know in the next 2 months if this is where I want to shift my studies. My resistance is my thoughts of just “brushing away” those past memories. I want to help people, but I ask myself, “Do I really want to be reminded of the chaos I experienced for so many years?” when I am finally at some point of PEACE.
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Tuesday, 24 March 2009 @ 7:17am
Escaped says:
Dear Tria,
I’m so sorry. My second ex is, I believe, a “Malignant N,” and the pain he caused me was terrible enough. It has to be so much harder to have it be your own child. I had a brief experience from which to draw some idea of your pain, although, I’m sure it won’t really compare. My daughter from my first marriage, who is/was my oldest child and my best friend, went through a rebelious period a year and a half ago at the age of 19. She devalued and treated me like my ex-N. She ran away, across the country with her boyfriend of questionable personality disorder. It lasted only 4 months. She is back, herself again, and wiser from the experience. But, when she left, and during her time away it hurt so much worse than anything the ex-N did, because she was is my child.
I also have two little boys, 8 & 10 who are at risk for their father’s disorder, both because of sharing his DNA and because they still have to spend time with him per our custody agreement. From my end I can only do damage control and demonstrate/teach the values I hope they will learn and internalize. Beyound that I can only hope and pray for the best.
I know what you mean about the past memories. All the record keeping or talking about the toxic ones is like digging up bones. I am embarking on writing a book about my experience with the ex-N and the things I have learned which have helped me find my way back and find some peace…in the hope that it will help other potential or current victims. It is my hope and expectation that this process of digging them up, turning them over, and analyzing each one will strip them of the power to ever hurt me again.
I’m convinced this will add to my peace.
IMHO, we will be reminded of the chaos of our past every day, in various ways, no matter what we do, simply by virtue of being human, alive and having a memory.
In addition to writing the book, I have also changed my major in college from Nursing to Psychology/Human Services. It is my hope that I can then deal with the past on an intellectual level instead so I can help others in whatever capacity I can.
In this way, I turn the tables as well. Not only have the bones lost thier power over me…but I take back the power and make them serve to help others.
In this there is PEACE and JUSTICE.
I am following my heart without fear. I believe God will let me know if I am following the right or wrong path just as he has so far.
Only you can know or “see” His path for you. Follow your heart.
Peace and Be Well,
Escaped
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Tuesday, 24 March 2009 @ 6:10pm
jillsmith says:
Thank you for posting this.
My ex-husband was just successful in having his Order of Protection dismissed, thus endangering myself and my 13 month-old baby.
I was shocked at the judge’s decision, as I had many documents (police report, hospital statements) and a lot evidence (as well as 5 letters of support from professionals). He didn’t have any evidence at all. He presented himself well and I was confused the whole time.
I just found out this verdict a few days ago and am still in shock at the judge’s decision. I’m also frightened because now my ex knows where I live and his handguns were returned to him. He also posted a picture of him throwing our baby’s bouncy seat off of a cliff, once the Order of Protection was dismissed. I don’t know how to process the fear (I have PTSD from dealing with him) and the shock at having the judge believe his lies. All I wanted to do was protect my baby and the judge would rather pat my ex-husband on the back it seems. I just don’t understand, but reading about this helps me realize a little bit better what happened. Thank you for sharing. I need to figure out how to deal with these emotions now.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 12:36am
jillsmith says:
By the way, I’m so sorry to read about your pain and all that you went through with this man. I’m especially sorry he molested your daughter. I can’t even imagine how painful that must be to go through, as a mother. My heart goes out to you. Thank you for being brave enough to share. I think it helps people like me to heal. I’m grateful I found this site. I was starting to feel very alone.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 12:39am
OxDrover says:
Deaar Tria, Escaped and Jillsmith,
I am so glad you are all here and receiving help, knowledge and support from this site. It, I believe, saved my sanity if not my life!
I just got my hands on a book today that sounds like it is WRITTEN ABOUT MY P-SON—I did not realize that Johnathan Kellerman, the novelist,who wrote this book, “Savage Spawn, reflections on Viiolent Children” is also a clinical psychologist who had worked with these children. His “reflections” and descriptions will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck.
In a way, it almost sounds like I wrote it as well (though I don’t write as well as he does, obviously) but he is totally for the “three strikes” laws in California and other states that put repeat felony offenders (mostly psychopaths) in prison for life without parole.
I ordered two more copies of this book today off Amazon for $4.00 including shipping, and will probably order even more copies for others. I think it is the BEST book and explains psychopathy better than any other book I have ever read, even Hare’s “Without Conscience.” I recommend this book fo everone who has ever dealt with a psychopath or a “conduct disorder” child. THIS IS ONE PROFESSIONAL WHO DOES GET IT!!!!! IN SPADES!!!! Yea, for our side!!! TOWANDA!!!!
Jill I am so sorry that your judge didn’t get it at all, that happens sometimes. BE CAREFUL!!!
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 2:13am
Donna Andersen says:
JillSmith,
You might want to contact Karin Huffer, who is listed in the Lovefraud Professional Resources Guide. She specializes in helping people with PTSD navigate the court system.
http://www.lovefraud.com/resourcesguide/profile/9/
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 5:10am
Tilly says:
HELLO TRIA!!
I have a daughter who is 30 and i have only recently worked out she is a psychopath. Oxy helped me identify it. It was a million times harder to identify in my own child than in an intimate partner.
How old is your daughter?
I hope we hear some more from you soon. I could do with some advice on what to expect with the female psychopath daughter now that I have gone no contact.
I am inwardly grieving but haven’t shed a tear yet. This is because I am still trying to resolve my last experience in my heart, with my psychopath ex partner.
AI intellectually understand now. However I havn’t been able to witness my own PTSD as much as I am too close to it. I.e. it sneaks up on me and its not until later I realise why I am so defensive towards some people.
I was in the bank the other day and a woman approached me and told me where to stand and how to be and what to do. She caught me off guard and I swung around and said to her, “God, your very aggressive aren’t you!!” She said “ME?? WHAT THU??”
I had to leave there because I realised I was over reating to someone telling me what to do. I felt like my life had been threatened!!
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 5:35am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
As Blogger T says, that hypervigilence is our reaction to a previous danger, and is normal and natural. It will be two years ago in a week when I fled my home for fear of my son and his Trojan Horse Psychopath. Prior to that I had been living in CHAOS for six months or more because of the Trojan Horse P and my enabling egg donor.
It will be 5 years this july since the aircraft crash that killed my husband, is 4 1/2 years since my stepfather died after an 18 month illness of cancer, etc etc. so my PTSD started with the plane crash and has continued with all the other stressors. I got back to my home Dec 07, so ohave had some “peace” (compared to the worst of the chaos) for about a year and a half. My DIL tried to kill my son in August 07, so it takes TIME to process all this. Plus, the Rapid eye movement therapy was in late 07 and early 08 andhelped a great deal.
My hyper vigilence has decreased with PEACE and contmeplation of it all. Reading things that were pertaining to it, and also processing (thinking about) these things.
Processing these things, not just letting them “jhappen” and not gaining things internally from the experience. When I got the worst of the P-experience processed, then I started digging into the past to see WHY, what it was about me, that made me a perfect target for the Ps. Now it is about working on ME, not about what they did. But also accepting that I can not, could not, do anything about how they were or thought or acted. I can only change and fix ME.
Good for you for seeing what is going on, that is PROGRESS FOR YOU! You will “catch” yourself in these things, and process them and eventually you will come to a point that you realize you are living in PEACE….it will SNEAK UP on you and one day you will realize you are HAPPY AND AT PEACE MORE AND MORE EACH DAY! (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 7:07am
Rune says:
Hello JillSmith: Can you get someone from Social Services or the police to look at that photo of the babyseat going off the cliff? The timing of that post appears to be particularly informative, if a smart person were to look at it!
Don’t believe that all is lost. Keep your wits about you, and keep doing what you can to fight him.
And please keep checking in. You need the support and encouragement and help with resources that you can find here.
You are in my prayers.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 8:24am
angelajohnson says:
I understand your pointing out the truth/lie factor in this situation. But there seems to be a lot of concern about the house, the credit, the debt, the car and the money. Wow. Your daughter was molested by her father. Who cares about the money? Of course your life must go on, but I think your concern is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 9:17am
Rune says:
Angela: In the mess of trying to survive in the chaos created by a sociopath, and sort out the priorities, EVERYTHING can be an emergency. And although, as you point out, the fact that the father is a molester should be the first concern, without money and shelter, the molester father might be the one the courts would hand the children to!
I don’t disagree with you pointing out that concern, but even from the standpoint of protecting the children, this mother will be far less capable if she doesn’t have a financial base. That’s one of the things that these sociopathic fathers use to gain custody of their children and create even more heartache and damage for all.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 9:28am
jillsmith says:
Thanks you all for this great advice.
Rune, as a Domestic Violence Victim, I haven’t seen that the police really have done me that much good in the past, but this is still a good thought. I should consider it. Part of the problem is the nature of my ex-husband’s high-prestige job. I wonder if I should give the judge a link to the facebook page. I don’t want to involve Social Services because I don’t want it stated anywhere on public records that my ex is the legal father of my baby. I don’t want that to be known. We haven’t had a paternity test or anything yet.
Do you have any other ideas of who I should show this picture to?
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 6:11pm
jillsmith says:
Angela,
I don’t think you nor I can imagine the pain of having a daughter molested unless we have been through that ourselves. Even then, we can’t truly know how it feels for someone else because we all process pain and deal with it differently.
I can’t speak for the woman who posted her story, but I did pick up a lot of heartfelt concern for her children.
I’m with Rune on this that you have no idea how hard it is to try to protect your child from a Sociopath, but to have a lot of financial difficulty to keep from doing this as well as us single mothers would like to do. It’s especially difficult if the Sociopath put us in this position.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 6:14pm
jillsmith says:
Rune,
I hope I did not come across as ungrateful for your help and advice. I didn’t mean to dismiss your advice and help. I am just learning to be direct and assertive for the first time, through my therapist and domestic violence advocates. I’m not very good at it, as I’m just learning to assert myself. I am grateful for your tips and advice. I just wanted to let you know the points I had already considered and ruled out, for various reasons. Perhaps I need to explore some of these options more carefully. As it’s difficult to (oh I hate cliches, but here it goes. . .) to see the forest through the trees, I realize you probably have more clarity to solutions than I do. I didn’t mean to rule out your advice.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 9:43pm
Rune says:
JillSmith: I’m just coming back online and catching up. I hope you are still here. I have had experience that you may find valuable for your situation.
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Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 10:35pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jillsmith,
I’m glad to hear that you are learing to be assertive and to set boundaries and stand up fo ryourself and your child! Good for you!
I’m also glad that the psychopath is not on your child’s birth certificate as that is a GREAT PLUS.
As your CHILD is THREATENED though, social services might still be willing to help you, and he is your X-BF, and ONLY your X-BF, as I am sure you are “not sure” who the father of your baby is, and not him, of course. So I can’t see the social services wanting to know who the father is unless you are asking for welfare, in which case they would want the father to repay them for—does he CLAIM to be the father of your child? Would he claim to be?
It just sounds to me like you are a mother trying to protect your child from a STALKER that is out to get you and your child.
Also, I was thinking about your situation today and you had mentioned that you had considered going to another country to hide out from him. There are options HERE IN THE US where you could be totally hidden from him, even change your name an dyour baby’s name and CUT THE PAPER TRAIL so he could not find you, and live lilfe safely.
I had to run from my own son, and I consulted with a private investigator about how to “hide” and to “cut the paper trail” for my own saafety. If you would like my private e mail address, contact donna and tell her I gave you permission in this post, and she will send your email address to me. I will off line let you know the things I learned and s ome of the options you have for “going under ground.” You are not as helpless as you might think or have to live in DV shelters the rest of your life to stay safe from this monster or go out of the country. God bless and keep you and your baby safe! (((hugs)))
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Wednesday, 27 May 2009 @ 2:36am
jillsmith says:
OxDrover,
Thank you for this insight. I responded on the other Family thread too. I saw on that thread that you noticed I was married to my ex when my baby was born. The divorce was finalized a month after my baby was born and in the state I came from as well as the state I fled to, that means that legally he is the father. However, he has not been named the father yet. He still needs to find me to order a paternity test. He still has to go through legal measures to do so. I know he does not want to be a father, but he has continually used our son as a pawn. In court, when I was asked if he was the father, I simply stated that paternity had not been established and that I would need to consult and attorney before answering more questions regarding paternity. My ex’s attorney tried to have a paternity test ordered in the Order of Protection DV case, but was unsuccessful. At first, the judge ordered one, but then dismissed that order, realizing he did not have the jurisdiction to do so.
My ex knows that my baby is my weakest spot, meaning it’s how he can inflict the most pain possible on me. I don’t know to what level he will fight just to hurt me. I don’t know if I’m in more danger from him hurting me in person, using illegal measures, or if he will think of his career and pursue legal measures to get my son in his life. I have no idea what he will do or to what lengths he will go to. He has been at this since July of 2007, when I first left him. I was only actually living with him as his wife for 2 months and he still is going to these extremes.
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Wednesday, 27 May 2009 @ 3:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill, I read your post on the other thread, where you said you would contact “sharon” and give her permission to contact me off line (she will send me your e mail) it is DONNA ANDERSEN, the owner of this siteher e mail is on the main page.
I do have some more ideas that I do not want to post on line and I am glad that you have “around the corner” access to a PI that might be able to get some information t o you.
Most states are that way about the man the mother is married to at the time
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Wednesday, 27 May 2009 @ 4:10pm
jillsmith says:
To anyone reading this:
I could still use any advice any of you have to give. I’ll be making my decision as to what to do in the next couple of days.
I’m out-weighing whether to stay in the States or outside of the States. I will list the pros and cons of staying vs. leaving.
Before you read further, know that I’m incredibly insecure about my current financial situation. Any other time in my life, I’ve had a very stable career. My P caught me at a very vulnerable time. My mom had just died so I had just decided to put all of my savings into grad school and into moving across the country for grad school and had quit a very financial stable job. The last conversation I’d had with my mom before she dies was about how I should be living and working my “passions”. I relocated for my ex after this and lost all that I still owned through him. When I left him, I was pregnant and had suffered extreme physical problems from my abuse. Then, I couldn’t exactly work full-time after having my baby. Okay, now that my insecure disclaimer is over, you may proceed.
All of that being said, I am receiving financial help through the DV agency I’m currently working with. I only have to pay 30% of my income for rent. I am next on the waiting list for Section 8, which would enable to go through grad school without too much debt (I’m anti-debt). I am in the address confidentiality program in the state I’m living in. That means that all government agencies have to accept my goverment PO Box as my Residential address. Also consider the fact that my ex worked with Homeland Security and claims that is how he has found me before, accessing my hospital records. I also know he paid a PI thousands to find me. Through my current apartment, my DV agency required that I have a landline phone, which I did through Verizon. I’m now finding out that it is easy for someone to find me through Verizon.
In another country, I can remain hidden. My friend I would be living with lives in the countryside, in the middle of nowhere. I do work online, but it only amounts to about $1200 a month. I would only have to pay $350 a month rent in the other country though. My plans would be to stay in that country illegally and permanently. It seems scarey, but maybe I could get more work online or under the table.
One decision seems responsible and stable, as I would be able to stay insured and keep working towards grad school, with Pell Grants, Scholarships, Section 8 and help from DV agencies until I complete my program (which is highly marketable). I never received help from the government before this and was very self-sufficient, but my DV agencies were able to get me connected to help. It’s much harder to make it as a single mom than I could have ever imagined.
Anyway, all of that being said, what do you think is the wisest decision? Is it smartest to leave the country so that my ex can never find me? Is the stress and financial burden of that worth it? But then again, isn’t my life and my baby’s life worth any cost? Any ideas?
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 12:32am
Rune says:
Jill: I’m responding before I read your post. I’m here.
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 1:14am
Rune says:
Jill: I’ve gotten through your disclaimer. I have a child, born in circumstances very much like yours. I understand your disclaimer, and this is what I intuited about your situation.
I hope you are still online.
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 1:17am
Rune says:
Jill: If I don’t reach you tonight, please check in the morning. I rarely step forward like this. I am concerned for you and feel that I can help you immediately and to make decisions for your future. If we miss each other, please follow Oxy’s advice and contact Donna. I am concerned for your well-being and your child. I am speaking from a very practical and right-now solutions perspective.
If you read this in the night, please contact Donna so at least Oxy can talk with you. I trust your gut.
Do you know who Dave Brashears is? I know him. I know many “names” in a certain world, and who can and who cannot be trusted when they shout “On belay.” You need someone who has you, and is holding tension when you need it.
Please be in touch.
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 1:27am
jillsmith says:
Thanks. How do I get in touch with Donna?
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 2:34am
witsend says:
jillsmith
This is Donnas email. Im sorry no one was on when you posted.
donna@lovefraud.com
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 6:44am
witsend says:
jillsmith,
Here is donnas phone # as well. Not sure what would be faster contact? Maybe try both.
609-945-1384
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 6:46am
Leah says:
Jill,
I am so sorry about what you are going through. I don’t want add to your anxiety but would like point out one manner in which your ex can track you if you leave the county that you may not be considering. One of my ex-husband’s victims fled to England when she was seven months pregnant with his child. He continued to email her and she opened his emails not realizing he was using tracking software. I am not a technical person. So forgive my nontechnical explanation, but evidently the computer sends a burst of information on locaiton when you open an email and he was able to narrow it down first to London then to an actual residence. He had someone from a father’s rights group (Families Need Fathers) go to the house. But there was no one there. So if he emails you, don’t open the emails – even just to read them.
I too considered leaving the country but ultimately did not have to because my ex-husband was more interested in money than anything else. So I was able to address the issue in a different manner. It was pointed out to me at the time that if I left I could never come back. I’m sure you’ve already considered that.
There are books on how to disappear. It sounds like they may be worth reading. After you are gone a year or two, he will most likely move on to a new target.
I wish you well.
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 11:50am
ErinBrockovich says:
I seem to have disappeared……maybe I got buried in the S’s garage mess….
I have been ‘ridding’ my property of the S. Charity truck came last evening to take the last of it! WOW…..that felt GREAT!!!! Na, Na, Na…….GOODBYE!!!!
My kids are doing great the past week. I guess the old saying…..what doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger?
Or is it….what Sociopath doesn’t kill you…..makes you stronger. We are a strong family…..ready to take it on, if need be.
I feel a certain peace!! My shoulders are relaxed, I have a confidence, I am content in my situation.
My kids are all hanging around home since the divorce, inviting friends over. They set up a firepit in the yard, and we have sat outside enjoying smores the past week…every night! They moved the stereo outside, and even listen to JAZZ, not the angry heavy anxiety ridden crapiola they have been known to play. Friends drop by for a bit when they see us outside, and we are all enjoying each others company!
The kids commented last night, how cool this was, and how we never did this when the S was around…..there was always something to bitch about. Too loud, too smokey, too late, too much of a hassel, game on TV,…. whatever…..always an excuse to not spend time together.
We have cleaned out the house, garage and yard of any and all ‘debris’ from the S.
Damn, what a packrat! It was embarrassing!!!!!
I have not heard a word about whether or not he was served the harassment/stalking order in the State he is currently in.
His attorney quit on him…..so he is ‘flying solo’. I expect for the duration of it all the mop up!
I have slept great…..taking naps, doing what I can around the house and preparing my busiiness for a good season.
I have had ‘angels’ come out of the wood work to help us. Move heavy items and take to dump. Even the trash man was on board…..he took every last morsel I put at the curb…..even the dryer!
I have been bringing back some items that I stored elsewhere, and now we can enjoy OUR STUFF! All the items that would disappear when I would go into hospital….and he broke in the home and stole.
I have picked up a few new accounts for my business….which is fantastic!
I know there is a calm before the storm……but during this calm…..I am getting organized, so the floodwaters do not drown me when they hit! And I KNOW they will come!!!! OH lordy….they will come! I’m just keeping my eyes and ears open as I plug along in life!
I feel strong…..I had a confrontation with 2 of his spy’s that entered my property……I so got in their faces….and in no uncertain words……told them they were not allowed on MY property, get the fark off and do not come back…..do not even drive by MY home, I don’t want to see their scumbag, pimp faces near me or my property or my kids!!!! They scattered like cockroaches, not saying a word…..I never gave them a chance!
Another spy came back and stole something I had in my yard, I saw them on my security cameras and chased their car to the stop sign, they were shocked, I was very aggressive and reached in and took the car keys out of the ignition, with my cell phone in hand to call police…..I gave them an ultimatum…..they complied! I read this group the same riot act as the last…..Don’t fark with me!!!
Someone asked me what I would do if they got physical……I said….I would probably turn into Mike Tyson……
but I will NOT be taken advantage of, IF I CAN HELP IT!!!!!
IN ANY WAY!!!!
It feels good to stand up for myself……knowing I would avoid confrontation at all costs in my ‘old life’…..
I am sure this is throwing the S for a loop….he doesn’t know how I will react to any situation now….whether it’s directly to him with the law or his cronie spy’s with the law or myself!
But….I wanted to let you know I am okay…..I wanted to check in……
I’m going with my gut still……and I am heading in a great direction!!!
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 2:06pm
shabbychic2 says:
Erin: What a wonderful post to read! I am so happy to hear you are feeling well and strong, and I especially loved to hear about the family time you are spending around the fire, listening to music, visiting with friends, etc. It sounds fabulous!
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 2:15pm
learnthelesson says:
EB:
If you dont already have this…its a must for you
)
http://www.loveyoushirts.com/N.....Brockovich
Glad you are going with your gut!!!!! Sounds like you have your real “family” life back…so happy for you! Please be careful too… chasing spy’s can be dangerous! Otherwise you are TOTALLY making it to the other side! An inspiration for all! Thanks for the awesome update!
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 2:47pm
Leah says:
Wow, Erin, you are an inspiration.
This and one of your earlier posts – the one about court – really cheered me up.
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 3:28pm
jillsmith says:
Leah,
Do you know if someone sends an email like this how long my location can still be detected after receiving the email? I received an email from my ex that put a bunch of spyware and various viruses on my computer as soon as I opened it in October of 2008. If I have Norton Anti-Virus and have cleaned up my computer, is it very proable that he can still trace where I’m at (I’m living at a different location than I was in October)? When I first left him, he sent lots of encrypted spyware emails to me and to my friends. He would make up email addresses that would be one letter or number off of a real friend’s email address, so I would open it or another friend would open it to have a video on it that would automatically open and download programs that would memorize keystrokes on our computers. That is why I deleted all of my email accounts and blog at the time. I forgot about this one old email account that I checked in October though and thought it was safe because I thought he didn’t know the address, but sure enough, he emailed me on it. Do you think I’m still safe using this computer if I have cleaned my system since then? Do you know how these programs work, or does your friend? Do they immediately track when I am at that moment, or do they sometimes have the capability to stay on my computer, undetected by anti-virus software and to keep tracking where I am at later dates?
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 8:54pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Jill:
As far as I know, once your computer is infected, it’s next to impossible to delete these items. They can track as long as you use this account/computer….. I have spoken to many people that are not even computer saavy that have been successful at placing these programs on their spouses…..real scary! Also GPS systems on cars slipped under the wheel well or somehwere metal. These look like little black box’s about the size of the palm of your hand.
With the GPS, you can be seen on a map, in realtime! I’ve seen these in action too…..scary!
Since computers are fairly cheap….if possible, I would just buy a new computer and set up new email account using an alias and don’t transfer anything off the old computer to the new one. No documents, ipod stuff etc… Start fresh!
IMO, one can never be too cautious, especially since you already know you have the spyware.
ALSO…..NEVER NEVER leave your cell phone alone….not even for a minute. I actually keep mine in my bra. The spyware available for cells is amazing and can eaves drop on you even when not in use. Like a recording device. The phone can be called and you will never know it and anything and everything you say and are told will be heard. Even when your singing alone in the car! I recommend taking the battery out of the phone when not in use.
This is why I do not carry internet on my cell phone. I have a simple phone with a simple plan and carry a palm pilot for other info (also with no internet)….the more advanced we get with technology, the more at risk we are from S’s.
My ex was ordered by the courts to set up an email account to use only for the kids……he is not a computer person……but this concerns me…..for just this reason! I will use an old computer to check this account only. I have erased the hard drive, so no documents or addresses or anything else is on this computer.
I am always erring on the side of caution. It’s a pain in the neck at first, but you get used to doing things a certain way and the protection and added security is so well worth the initial effort. Piece of mind in invaluable!!!
Especially if your contemplating a drastic disappearing act, to protect yourself and your baby…..why would you take any chances on ANY level!
Good luck Jill!!!
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 10:51pm
Rune says:
JillSmith: I’m checking in. I look forward to connecting with you. Yes, I’m concerned about your welfare, with all of these issues.
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Thursday, 28 May 2009 @ 10:55pm
jillsmith says:
Just to update, I decided to leave the country. The PI connection I had was able to find out my current address. My ex sent me a video (I don’t even know how he knew about the site he sent it to) with very graphic violence with guns, including women’s sexual organs being blown off with guns. I’m not going to sit around and wait to see if he’s serious or just messing with me. Thanks for all of your help and advice.
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Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 2:52pm
ErinBrockovich says:
JillSmith:
You will be okay….believe that !
Stay healthy, wise and aware. Do the learning you need to to continue protecting yourself and the baby.
You know you will always be ‘home’ when you check in with us.
STAY SAFE…..Keep records and walk under the radar!
BEST OF LUCK AND COURAGE BE WITH YOU!!!!!
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Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 3:01pm
jillsmith says:
Thanks a lot Erin. I especially like what you said about believing I’ll be okay. That should be my new mantra. Thanks for your words.
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Wednesday, 10 June 2009 @ 9:25pm
Tilly says:
My lifeline was lovefraud and now my computer crashed and all these bills I didnt expect just came in. I have gone down in the ditch again. Will struggle back up when I get some energy.
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Wednesday, 10 June 2009 @ 10:56pm
James says:
Tilly,
Always seen like something happens and always at the worst time. Hope you will get your computer up and running soon. Just remember we are thinking and praying for you!
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Wednesday, 10 June 2009 @ 11:42pm
endthepain says:
ERIN….WHERE ARE U???? lol
I need some words and your expertise by what you have gone thru…
Had a court date yesterday Filed by the S…however was done incorrectly and didnt notify myself or child support services…so, we couldnt go.
Said he would refile..in the meantime all of my communication pertaining to the court or our son or support has been thru email…No response.
He is angry that I am cutting him out and doing things on my terms hence the slander has begun
so..I went to Child support services myself as in the interim he had asked them for a review for modification anyway…but it was taking to long for him so thats why he file directly thru the court on his own.
The info he gave child support services is inaccurate so they have now gotten a court date for July..coming uo. I gave the office all of the info I had on him so it would be in the file…he lied and said he was terminated from his job and he wasnt..he voluntarily quit to move to another state (where I was) when I kicked him to the curb a few months later he went back yo yhr other state and apllied for unemplyment which he is getting and it hasnt been garnished. In the meantime he is living in his wife’s house ( I guess technically its his to) and living rent free as she stopped paying the mortgage in Feb (right when he conveniently decided to return here after being kicked out) she pays the utlities and food and what not…he is getting money from his mom to pay his insurance and car payment and in the meantime he gets 800.00 am month for unemployment. can you give me any advice on what to do or what more I can do as far as paper trails….I pulled bank statements from when he was here back in feb and thr money he got from his mom and paisd nithing. I had to pull my son from day care as when he volunatrily quit his wages were being garnished and it helped pay thedaycare…when he came here after a month I had to pull him out as I couldnt pay….he watched him here and there..I had to miss work and famiky members helped as well…so technically he wasnt in day care for 2 months so he wants credit for him not being in day care….even th he was living off of me….and credit fie time spent with him after abandoning him for 2 yrs and there was no court order in place anyway///even tho the house is in short sale he is choosing to not return back to this state ( where his wife and daughter will be moving back to. as well…seperately) until he is FORCED out of the house meanwhile laying around collecting unemployment while I bust my butt to work and pay for living expenses and care foer his son…he wants credit and to have it lowered…..any thoughts…please help
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:24am
witsend says:
Tilly
seems to be a common problem right now computers going down.
It sounds to me that you are feeling very low the past few post that you have made.
I have followed your story and found you to be an INCREADIBLY strong woman. I know it is hard to be strong when sometimes you just want to curl into the fetal position and cry like a baby. You have been through so much!
DON’T give up now….You are strong and you survived more than most could endure.
Try to focus on whatever gave you the strength to get through this to begin with. If that no longer works than think about your son and how he needs you. And most of all think about all of what the s/p/n in your life have taken from you and drained you of AND DO NOT LET them have the most important thing of all….. YOU, your strong will to come through this, your GOOD heart…..
ENDTHEPAIN……
Maybe you can ask Matt for help in this matter? He hasn’t been on often lately either but he has good legal advice.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:40pm
ErinBrockovich says:
END:
Sorry for not being present the past week. I am going to court tomorrow for the Stalking/harassment order extension and preparing for that. Dealing with the Da’s office on other charges etc…. I also am dealing with the ‘fallout’ from divorce and trying to get back to ‘normal’….like jumping through hoops….but coming out ahead finally!
It goes without saying that he is laying around, playing the system. They do that! Don’t put your energies into thinking aobut what HE is doing…..put them into YOUR case.
Your doing the right thing. your documenting. Print all emails (in 3’s) to take to court. Everythign you take in must be in (3’s)…one for the court/him and extra in case. In addition to your files. If you have notorized statements from family showing ‘why’ it was necessary for them to watch the child, that’s good too.
I have to tell you that I didn’t go through much on the custody fight side. He does pay support, because he knows I wouldn’t hesitate to ‘find’ him and do what our state requires to ‘expose’ him….more hassles for him. He also pays because it’s his ‘ground’ to show he is a ‘good’ father…..it gives him the right to say he is supporting his children when he tells his ’story’. He forgets the part about lying about not working and the amount ordered was based on his lies……but I let that out for him!
I think what you are doing is in the right direction. Consistencey is key in documentation. You can show harm with his lack of consistancy in seeing his child, broken promises etc…. I don’t know what state you are in, but do a search on internet and see what the range, based on income is for child support. He also should be required by law to pay 1/2 of all medical, insurance and educational expenses. Those are things, in my state, the courts don’t give a damn about if your working or not…..the point with child support is…..YOU CHOSE TO BRING A CHILD INTO WORLD…..YOU MUST SUPPORT THEM! Period. Now the variable (amount) is based on proven income.
Medical etc…is not based on income (at least not in my state).
Keep your mind on the BIG picture….don’t get lost on each ‘battle’.
Your doing the right thing. Keep researching ALL your options in your state.
Can you file, so your in control of the dates, procedure, paperwork and filings etc….? Since he screwed up the filings and he wants to pay less?
I would look into that.
You can do it…..your doing great!
XXOO
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:33pm
endthepain says:
no problem ERIN…and I wish you the best of luch..I truly have come to admire you…..I came home today from work not feeling well and slepy for 4 hrs as I am alrady exhausted..and I havent even begun!!
I have nt done anything with custody and I decided..to wait just a bit longer as the more this goes on it will be more in my favor as far as SUPERVISED VISITS…he is in AZ and will be in CA..where we are….his original amount at first was for 400 the first time he took me to court he was a jackasss and had lied..so it was raisewd to 800 (LOL) then I like an idiot believed him and reduced it to 645 (IDIOT) so its already been reduced and he wants to have it based on 800 am nith unemployment that he is collecting FRAUDULENTLY sanf choosing to remain sn AZ (as it is free room and board) waiting until he is forced to leave in foreclosure… my son is alreadt in a school..that he dopesnt like that much as he isnt payinh anything and I cant afford the one I would like him to go to…I cant afford Insurance for my son..and altho I was going to have him put on hi9s wifes insurance…(her and I had discussed thnis) but she is going refile her divorce with him within the next m oneth and move back to calif…so I dont believe it would help….he is now goinf to court..with a poor me..poor me…son story look judge Im loosing my house and lost me job…blah blah blah….but he is losing the house because he refused to work. so Im not sure what other documents to gather..he has his “MOM” on his side as both his wife and I know exactly what he is…and its unfortunate as we were very close and now i AM THE DEVIL since I believed now what his wife was trying to tell me…(thats beside the point) would the court rule on his sob storynow??? I also asked about filing charges for contempy in failure to pay however he has to mphysically be in CA.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 5:28pm
endthepain says:
ERIN….I wanted to see how things went in court??????
I have another court date now in July…I have taken all of your advice…today being Fathers day….I am not having my 3 yr old son acknowledge the day as he doesnt even know what it is and the S hasnt called him at all…is that wrong????
I have his mother now calling and leaving messages specifically for my son…not sure how to deal with that as she and I were close…and the s has ruined that, as well…all I want is for some peace and to protect my son from any more dameage from the s!!!
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 11:43am
endthepain says:
ERIN….just checkin on ya….wanted to see how things went???
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 6:35pm
endthepain says:
got another court date with the S…no job…left voluntarily…and he is taking me back to court!!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 10:51am
KATYA says:
End, I feel so close to you for some reason. Stay strong. Is there anyone / any agency that can help you in financial troubles?
eventually it will all help to win your son over.
At first, when I was in denial, I was angry that he was not a part of his son’s life. Now that I know, I want nothing more but to rid of him so that he’s never allowed to be a part of my family’s life. Perhaps, what your S did will be to your advantage in a long run.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 1:33pm