The Borderland of Narcissism and Sociopathy
PDF In a prior post, I discussed some differences between the narcissist and sociopath, a focus I’d like to continue in this post. For convenience’s sake, I’m going to use “he” and “him” throughout, although we can agree that “she” and “her” could easily be substituted.
The narcissist, if I were to boil his style down to one sentence, is someone who demands that his sense of self (and self-importance) be propped-up on a continual basis. Without this support—in the form of validation, recognition, and experiences of idealization—the narcissist feels depleted, empty, depressed.
The narcissist struggles to define himself independently and sustainedly as significant and worthwhile. The fragility of his sense of self is no big news; it is how he manages his fragility, his insecurity, that is telling.
The narcissist, for instance, feels entitled to a sense of inner comfort and security. More specifically, he feels entitled to what he requires in order to experience an unbroken state of inner comfort.
But wait a second? Don’t we all feel somewhat entitled to what we need in order to feel secure and comfortable?
Most of us, after all, feel entitled to the air we breath that keeps us alive. You might feel entitled, when dehydrated, to a cold stream of water from your kitchen faucet? Imagine feeling an intense thirst, yet when you twist the faucet, no water comes out? The pipes are empty…everywhere in the house.
You are deeply thirsty, and yet the water you count on to salve your thirst is being withheld. In this circumstance, especially if your thirst is great, you might feel outraged? Incensed? Even panicked?
You might even feel furious enough to hurl curses and imprecations on the forces conspiring to frustrate your thirst!
Imagine the narcissist’s thirst as constant and deep—a thirst for things like recognition, appreciation, for validation of his importance, and special signifigance. When the narcissist’s thirst for recognition is unmet, it is no small matter—anymore than it would be a small matter to find a spigot unresponsive in the midst of your urgent thirst.
In other words, the frustration of his demand of recognition is a major disappointment, a major problem for the narcissist—a problem felt not merely as an inconvenience, but as a threat to his fundamental equilibrium, sense of security, and comfort.
In a certain sense, then, that the narcissist feels “entitled” doesn’t make him a narcissist. It is what he feels “entitled to” that is most relevant.
Specifically, it is his sense of entitlement to an undisturbed stream of others’ approval, admiration and recognition that most separates the narcissist from the non-narcissist.
But the narcissist demands more than others’ idealization; he also demands others to idealize. The narcissist needs to idealize others.
For instance, when he finally meets, yet again, the “perfect woman,” he puts her on a pedestal—i.e., he idealizes her. Idealizing her—putting her on a pedestal—makes for thrill and excitement (which, by the way, he misjudges again and again as fulfillment).
After all, he is tasting perfection. He must be pretty special to have the enviable attention of someone so perfectly, admirably beautiful. He looks and feels good thanks to the reflection of her perfection on himself.
One of many problems here is that idealized states are inherently temporary and unsustainable; they don’t hold up permanently; they are fraught all the time with dangers of collapse.
Thus, the narcissist can’t permanently hold his idealizations. And he finds their collapse, over and over again, discouraging and deeply disillusioning. But instead of recognizing the futility of his need, he will blame the formerly idealized object for failing to have remained as perfect, and perfectly satisfying, as he demanded.
The narcissist loses something urgent here, namely the key to his feeling of vitality. Inarticulately, he feels betrayed; and in his sense of betrayal, he feels angry, even enraged.
Enter his “contempt.” The underbelly of the narcissist’s idealizing is his contempt. The narcissist tends to vacillate between experiences of idealization and contempt. In either case (or “state”), others are regarded as objects—objects, we shall see, not quite in the sense that sociopaths regard others as objects.
For the narcissist, others have an obligation to maintain his peace of mind. In the narcissist’s world, it is on others, through their cooperation with his demands, to ensure his ongoing inner comfort and satisfaction. When meeting his demands, others are idealized; when disappointing him, they are devalued contemptuously.
What else does the narcissist demand? The narcissist on pretty much a constant basis demands various forms of reassurance. It may be reassurance of his attractiveness, superiority, special status in a girlfriend’s eyes (and history). He may seek reassurance of his virility, that he is still feared, respected, admired, idealized, and otherwise perceived as impressive.
For the narcissist, such reassurance, even when felt, proves always only temporarily satisfying, and is translated as something like, “I’m okay, for now. I’ve still got it. I’m still viable.”
In his pursuit of reassurance, the narcissist is a very controlling individual. His controlling tendencies arise from his desperation—his desperation, that is, for the reassurance he demands. And desperate people tend to be heedless of the boundaries of those who have what they want.
The narcissist, for instance, may grill his partner controllingly about her ex-boyfriends in order to establish (demand assurances of) his unique, special status with her. Or, he may text her during the day compulsively, in the guise of his interest in, and love, for her, when, in fact, it is not about his love or interest but rather about his demand to know that she is thinking about him that drives his invasive behavior.
He will rationalize his invasiveness as his thoughtfulness and love of her. And he will feel entitled to an immediately reassuring response, anything less than which will activate his anger/rage.
The narcissist’s legendary self-centeredness, to some extent, is a function of the fact that so much, if not all, of his energy is invested in resolving anxious questions about his present standing.
He is vigilantly afraid lest his present, fragilely, and externally supported status be upended, a development he struggles to tolerate. Consumed as he is with obviating this disaster, he has little energy left with which to be genuinely interested in others.
How about the sociopath? What’s his deal?
To begin with, the sociopath lacks the narcissist’s insatiable underlying neediness. Unlike the narcissist, the sociopath’s violating behaviors stem less from a deep insecurity than from his impulsive or calculated greed, and especially his basic view of others as objects, as tools, to be exploited for his entertainment, amusement and ongoing acquisitive agenda.
The sociopath is a more purely exploitative individual than the narcissist. For the narcissist, others are desperately needed, and demanded, as validators. Athough the narcissist will use and exploit others, he does so typically with the ulterior motive of reassuring himself, on some level, of his persisting viability.
For the sociopath, others are his potential “play-things,” their value a function of the gratification that can be extracted from them.
The less validating you are, the less worth you have for the narcissist.
The less exploitable you are, the less worth you have for the sociopath.
Said differently, the narcissist uses others as a means to establish (or reestablish) the sense, and view, of himself, as special, impressive, dominant, compelling, whereas the sociopath uses others more for the pure amusement of it; more for the sheer entertainment of seeing what he can get away with (and how); and/or for the immediate satisfaction of his present tensions, itch, and/or greed.
The term “malignant narcissist” seems to me to describe the sociopath more accurately than the narcissist. This term has been used to describe megalomaniacal individuals whose grandiosity and sinister appetite for control (over others) better reflect, to my mind, psychopathic processes of exploitation.
The “malignant narcissist” is, to my mind, driven by the sociopath’s (or psychopath’s) pursuit of omnipotent control over those he seeks to exploit. He is a power-hungry, often charismatic, ruthless and exploitative personality whose grandiosity serves more psychopathic than classically narcissistic purposes.
Don’t misunderstand me: The malignant narcissist is someone whose most toxic narcissistic qualities have attained malignant status (hence the concept). In the end, however, he is as coldblooded, callous, exploitative and deviant a creature as the most dangerous sociopath.
Does it matter, finally, whether a cult figure like, say, Jim Jones, who led hundreds of his followers to mass suicide, was a “malignant narcissist” or psychopath? Not if you regard the terms, and destructiveness of the personalities, as essentially indistinguishable, as I do.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
SurReality says:
I can appreciate your different view. I could be completely off the mark about mine in saying that he is not the violent type of S. Reason? He likes himself too much to imagine his life without his money, sitting in a prison cell. He couldn’t impress or brag to anyone in prison. It would be no …….. fun.
Although I doubt it, there IS a possibility that he’s not a full-fledge sociopath. He could be malignant narcissistic mostly, with just a *pinch* of sociopath thrown in. Who knows? I’m not a doctor. I only know he’s an intentionally disgusting human lifeform.
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
SurReal – you took the words right out of my mouth…. Narcissist is what came to my mind, as I was reading your last post
— But Im in no position to diagnose anyone, YET! Once i get my license I will be able to!
Please be careful…intentionally disgusting human lifeforms are capable of ANYTHING. Thanks for sharing your story, collectively we can all agree it was a toxic situation. Glad you are finally NC!
(Report abusive comment)
Rune says:
Sur-Real: Bleak, black humor indeed. If you knew what toll the S/P took in my life, you would know that I understand how rarely any recompense appears.
If I thought, from anything you have said, that you were placing yourself in danger, I would advise you to not take the money. But in these convoluted games with people who don’t think like us, almost any step can be a misstep. For you to establish NC at this point seems the safest course.
You sound like you have a reasonable grasp of this situation. I appreciate your story. I don’t believe that it creates justification for anyone else to think they should try to manipulate the manipulator. I think most of us on this site know better than to go down that road. And I want for you to stay safe.
Because researchers have so little knowledge of the behavior of these S/Ps in common social interaction, I think our stories help to illuminate the subtleties and educate each other. But we shouldn’t think we can dance with these dragons and step away unscathed.
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
“But if he actually wrote “Gift” on check it would be a done deal! Good luck!!!” – learnEDthelesson
I had a similar situation regarding “checks” to the ex’s son, my stepson (or “x” but he’s ok/no problems from him). There were about 4 checks totalling $6,000+ to bail him and his wife out of financial difficulties over about 5 years prior to my divorce. The legal question was whether “Loan” was on the memo line. Since there was a question about closing out an equity line of credit, and remaining equity, the promised “we’ll pay you back” turned into a “gift” according to the ex-Tox. Live & learn, I signed every one of the checks, but didn’t write “loan” on the line. (never really expected to be divorced after 25 years married to her, and never really expected to be paid back).
Anyway, we reached agreement without “going to trial.” My victory was a clause in the final decree where she admitted it was a “loan” not a “gift”, and we were each entitled to follow to collect 1/2 from him. He has 2 kids, problems of his own, I won’t be after it. (He better not pith off his mother, though.)
There was another joint savings account…(marital assets)could have gone either way in court because of the source of the funds (small inheritance from a father she saw once in ten years…he phoned her and sent a card and check every Christmas…he wasn’t on her Christmas list). It was only about $6700. Her lawyer had her offer $1,000…I took it…would have used that up in a hearing before the judge.
I haven’t “loaned” any money since, but if I do, the memo line on the check will say “loan” and there will be an agreement and “payback” promise and schedule…..in case I needed it.
Like I say. live and learn…I don’t lose sleep over it.
(Report abusive comment)
SurReality says:
In case this is of any assistance/use to any of you, here is what I’ve done in case the rat bastard decides to contact me again.
1) Since I have a domain email account (I use Outlook and email is sent to me@mydomain.com … not gmail or hotmail, etc) I’ve set Outlook to NOT download any of his messages from my domain’s server, AND
2) FORWARD them automatically to 3 of my closest friends
PLUS
3) This following auto-response goes to him, if he emails me:
==================================
WARNING TO:
((((PSYCHO’s NAME))))
Your email transmission:
· has not been downloaded from the intended recipient’s server; and,
· will not be read by the intended recipient; and,
· has been auto-forwarded to 3 other recipients; and
· This is your only warning; further email transmissions, or attempt by you to contact the intended recipient by any means, shall be deemed harrassment and stalking and will be immediately reported to the authorities.
Authorized:
MY NAME (intended recipient)
==================================
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Im hoping a got lucky in a different way. I did not write anything on check reference line either. BUT, on the money orders he wrote BALANCE $XXXX.XX!! Both times subtracting the peanuts he sent me. So, legally, he made it look like a loan! ! BECAUSE THATS WHAT IT WAS! Havent received any futher payments and someone here told me to probably expect that to be the case, since I stay NC.
Helping my in-laws tomorrow start process of collecting on their judgment the received against him. Should be rather straight forward for them….
Live and Learn… Live and Learn…. and dont forget Laugh too!
(Report abusive comment)
SurReality says:
I believe the legal way (without an actual loan document) to write a loan check is to put the verbiage/terms on the back of the check, above where the Payee endorses it, instead of in the ‘memo’ field. A gift check doesn’t require any notation, because there is nothing to be repaid to the Payor.
I learned about this when I was executor of my late mom’s estate.
PS: My S/Nutjob is a ………… LAWYER, so ’nuff said there. But, he’s a narcissistic/socio who wrote a gift check and didn’t get the ……………. “prize” ………. at the end of the night like he expected! Boooooooo Hoooooooo!
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
SurRealty….you’re an evil woman…the email thing…LOL
learnEDthelesson….story…genetics. The ex-Mother in law…lived a state way. her husband died (second one…she cheated on ex-Tox’s dad with a widowed neighbor…they call’em “back-door whores” in rural Indiana…hubby goes out the front door to work while boyfriend comes in the back door).
Anyway, the ex-Tox wants “Mom” to move to our town. Didn’t discuss it with me. In the middle of it, ex_Tox’s brother (ok guy) travels through. We’re visitin’ at the kitchen table…he says “What’s this I hear about you (ex-Tox) trying to get Mom over here?” He thought it was a bad idea, and the discussion went on a while. Then, he turned to me…”What do you think?” My reply…”They didn’t ask me.”
His next sentence…”Well, you get her over here, and you’re marriage won’t last a year!”
Well she moved here, and I lasted another 15 or 16 years…it weren’t much fun…two S/P/N/BPD’s on a tag-team against me….LOL
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
For my 2 cents worth, I don’t want ANYTHING that has anything to do with THEM. PERIOD. END OF CONVERSATION.
Even taking a “gift” from them would be a NO NO for me. My egg donor used to offer me “gifts” of money “if you need it” and I always refused. Didn’t need it, but IF I HAD NEEDED IT, if I had been living in a cardboard box on the corner and eating out of a dumpster, I would have said NO THANK YOU.
Maybe that is my “false pride” but the point is that I offered them my love, they spit on it, they devalued me, then tried to buy me off with money. Pith on it, and pith on them. They have their money, I have my self respect! My pride is intact.
Sure, if they had taken money from me, I would want it back, but since they didn’t actually steal money from me (though they COST me plenty of money) I don’t want their money. They can keep it, sleep with it, eat it, and maybe burn it to keep them warm, or have it buried with them when they die. Don’t want it. Would rather keep my head high and self respect in tact!
Okay, so he said it was a “gift” then he said it was a “loan” so what? I just don’t understand going to dinner with him, associating with him in any way, and sure don’t understand taking a “gift” from him, or keeping it after he said it was a “loan.” But different strokes for different folks (revealing my 1960s past here with that phrase) but too much DRAMA for me. I’m just not that interested in what they pull or trying to “put one over on them.” NO CONTACT.
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
SurRealty…”loan”, etc. Yes, just a starting point legally. Still would probably have required witnesses, oaths, depositions, testimony before a judge who doesn’t even want divorce trials clogging up his court…and wouldn’t want to hear the arguments.
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jim – After Ireland/Scotland, come home and hand in your employment app to Comedy Central or whatever the best one there is on TV these days! Your whole schtick can be Toxic Relationships! You will bring down the house and be riding high on the hog!!! (Heck, Oxy will prob let you choose one of her own!!!)
What a story – what a delivery – what a journey! Not much you cant survive now thats for sure!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
learnEDthelesson…yeah, Scotland…if I come back. Little stone hut overlooking the loch, peat to burn, couple of sheep, potatoes and turnips in the garden…haggis, tatties, and neeps…Auld Bobbie Burns baerthday dinner! And some Olde Grouse or Glenlivet to wash ‘er down…
Oh, finally gots me passport today! They missed the FBI “enemies list” from me student “activist” days!
I emailed my daughter and told her I was lookin’ for the proper kilt…extra half-dozen pairs clean underwear I won’t need to pack!
T’wil be a grand trip!
….the Princess Young Daughter’s still here…I’ll come back.
And there’s enough good hearts here to man the ramparts (boundaries) while I’m gone…and to care for the walkin’ wounded who show up! Towando!
I’ve got to sign off and give the cat her lap time…she sheds best on my denim-clad legs. The resident remaining “P”.
(Report abusive comment)
truebeliever says:
Matt, Thank you so much for your professional advice and kindness, I too am so glad that you are here. I will stay strong and get it all together! I have to! You are right-Thanks again so much!
Rune,Oxy, and Jim Thank you all for your encouragement and prayers. I truly appreciate your kindness as well.
THANK YOU! Good Night…
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jim – So Lad, er ya bringin back some shamrocks for us, eh?
Im an Irish, but “top of the mornin to ya” – is about as far as I go with my accent! I actually thought you were describing the view of the sheep out in the pasture and the plentiful garden… and then I wasnt sure where you were going with Haggis – thought maybe you were going for some down and dirty women with tatties and neeps??? HUH?? Funny how a name can really throw you off! After using my search engine – I went back and reread your post (sleep deprivation, everyone has to excuse me on that one!!) Must say very brave of you to mention Haggis in front of Oxy! I almost vomited when I read the recipe… sheeps liver! And good ole fashioned potates and turnips! Lol
In my search, turns out if youre in Edinbugh theres a loverly little restaurant near train station off Princes Street, known for rather tasty haggis – rumor has it best to zing it up with a pinch of tabasco (since Im sure you always carry a bottle of it with you when you travel) and follow up with single malt Scots!
Not going to touch the kilt comment – except to say – you go boy!!
Funny story about my 14 year old. Last summer she went to visit friends in Canada. Got her a passport. I told her to keep it in a safe place, so that when she gets there, she could readily pull it out and provide it to customs officer. She did just that. On both legs of trip. When finally back across the border, she was approved through customs, walked on her way and tossed her passport into the trashcan on way out of airport. She thought it was a one trip and done deal!
Anyway, Im sure you’re counting down the days! Enjoy!
Dia dhuit!
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
learnEDthelesson-haggis…LOL…you had the normal reaction…Eeewh! I usually answer: “Couldn’t tell the gender of the sheep…it was pretty well chopped up.”
(hint: male-ram, female-ewe)
Actually, it’s pretty good, haggis is. Found a restaurant in Indianapolis, downtown in one of the artsy sections, that has it on the menu. Daughter who moved to the Left Coast lived a few blocks away, and introduced me. The Guinness drew her. and the brewery is on the itinerary. I went there on my last art museum venture, and the shot of Olde Grouse was comped, in honor of Robert Burns.
And…don’t touch the kilt. I know a guy who plays the bagpipes, in full dress. “Amazing Grace” was played for a friend a while back, at his brother’s funeral…fantastic. His problem is women always want to know what’s under there!
Women complain about sexual harassment by men? Let a guy wear a skirt….hey, we’re sensitive, too! I just can’t believe what women will say to a man in a kilt….it’s an outrage!
Anyway, I have to do something useful to society today. Keep healing, have some FUN…”don’t know where we’re goin’, but we’re gonna get there” TOWANDO!
(Report abusive comment)
Matt says:
Ah, yes. Haggis. Right up there with Bubble and Squeak.
Being of Anglo Irish descent, I agree with the person who said something to the effect of “a nation’s military prowess is inversely proportional to the quality of its food. Which explains why the British have been winning wars for centuries and the Italians have been losing them.”
(Report abusive comment)
sistersister says:
This is interesting, and as he says, it really doesn’t matter which label you apply, you’re marked as a victim just by knowing them.
What I find interesting is not the makeup of the perpetrator but that of the victim. Don’t both sides suffer from some form of narcissism? Just being the kind of person who connects to that “unconditional love” b.s. the S or N sends out is narcissistic.
Let’s not “blame the victim,” but then again, we all choose where we put ourselves. A little clarity on our own tendencies could help keep us out of trouble.
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
sister – Although i feel i was victimized, i am trying and want to keep trying not to label myself a victim. Why? Because I had some part in this once his mask fell off and have to take responsibility for the choices I made which enabled him to continue verbally abuse me and mistreat me. Which further enabled me to feel entitled to do the same to him by default of my reactions to actions – or not realizing what my “makeup” was.
However, the “unconditional love ” I gave to this person was far from b.s. on my part. Lord knows I spent so much time conditioning myself to try to accept him for who he is. Understand him. Let him. In fact my perception (or misperception) of what unconditional love is and should be – played a big role in my STAYING IN THE DYSFUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIP. I tooted my own horn so to speak about how I was able to ACCEPT him, no matter what, or at whatever cost. SO WRONG, SO WRONG OF ME TO DO THAT.
I think everyone in the world has some level of narcissism within them. And in small healthy doses, thats a good thing. We all do choose where we put ourselves – but I must confess – I didnt take the time to make good healthy choices – to reflect on where I was and what I was doing in the relationship ONCE MASK FELL OFF – all I did was continue to “unconditionally love and support” – someone who wasnt worthy/deserving of such.
“A little clarity on our own tendencies could help keep us out of trouble” Words to live by, and first and foremost we must recognize what those tendencies are then ACT upon changing them.
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Dear Learn-ED,
Yep, the ACTING ON THEM IS THE KEY—I think deep down we ALL knew what was right and wrong, but we let our emotions run our lives, not our good sense or brains. WE LET OUR HEARTS and our desire for our “dreams” run our lives when REASON and GOOD SENSE were telling us “this isn’t working” but we kept telling them (REASON and GOOD SENSE) to SHUT UP! Now we are listening@! and now we need to learn to ACT on what REASON and GOOD SENSE tell us to do! TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Oxy – The TOWANDA QUEEN!!! And quite the MACHINE!!! I like learnING from you!! Thanks..
(Report abusive comment)
Allure says:
I wonder what happens to the old Narcissists who don’t get what they want. I tangled with one of those a few years ago at work. He was younger and attractive, and flirted with me regularly until I was convinced he was genuinely interested. Then I expressed interest. Then we had a disagreement about something work related and I became a permanent object of ridicule. It’s been a few years. I no longer work with or see this person. He always had trouble getting/maintaining relationships- he could never get them to stick- always blaming the women. He’ll never have anyone- he is so unpleasant. What happens when Narcissists become old and unattractive and are no longer able to get the attention they crave?
(Report abusive comment)
Rune says:
Sistersister: S/Ps come in all sorts of sizes, shapes, and intentions, with different IQs, MOs, and ETCs. On this site we see a lot of the “sweep her off her feet” style (if I can generalize), with some intention of binding her close to then tromp all over her in a variety of ways. (And the men who have been similarly treated can swap around genders in my description and probably nod their heads as well.)
HOWEVER, even when you “know” what they look like, you still may not recognize the one that comes along with a completely different game. A dedicated predator, with a different style will have a lot of fun with NOT sweeping the “prey” with an overdose of “I’m everything you ever hoped for.” Like a fly fisherman, delicate touch.
Some of them are in it for “the long con.” In my case I really did not know the devastation he was working behind the scenes — to my face he was the attentive, funny, kind . . . blah, blah, blah. No rages against me, no physical threats, no obvious anything. And I thought I was immune to his charm. I saw him charm others, but he played me perfectly. He was sooo “authentic.”
If you want an inside look at the personality of the victims, read “Women Who Love Psychopaths.” Good research and a most illuminating read.
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Allure – Think its called Just Desserts!!! My last words to my “x-tox” (to quote Jimindiana) – was : please consider taking the time to look within yourself – to get to know all of you, since you only seem to know the perfect parts of you. Invest as much time and effort into yourself as you do on the outside and fooling others – because Im thinking you may end up one of those miserable old men in a wheelchair who will have to pay a nurses aide to be your companion (which means you may want to consider that you actually have to start working to make money – instead of feeling entitled to everything and everyone (and their belongings) who cross your path. I felt I was being nice when I said this to him, but really it would have been best if I said nothing at all.
(Report abusive comment)
Matt says:
learnedthe lesson:
“…you may end up one of those miserable old men in a wheelchair who will have to pay a nurses aide to be your companion (which means you may want to consider that you actually have to start working to make money…”
I am laughing my ass off.
I remember S telling me, during one of the periodic pity plays he ran “I’m going to have a stroke like me mother.” His mother was brain dead after her second stroke and has been kept on life support for over 3 years.
All I remember thinking was something to the effect “that would be too easy for you. I want you incapacitated in a wheelchair. Then I’m going to go to nursing school. And then I’m going to become your nurse and ram that needle in as hard as I can times a day.”
S forgot that old saying — You should be careful what you wish for. As for me, I do rather think I would enjoy being his “Angel of Mercy.”
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Matt – LOL! Boy oh boy bet Kathleen is loving these “Anger” related posts! But me thinks she mentioned she is doing another blog on Anger –gracefully and safely! LOL Thankfully we cant get boinked by Oxy YET – because we arent quite at that stage and havent completely learnED graceful anger yet!
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
“This is interesting, and as he says, it really doesn’t matter which label you apply, you’re marked as a victim just by knowing them.”
What I find interesting is not the makeup of the perpetrator but that of the victim. Don’t both sides suffer from some form of narcissism? -sistersister
sistersister…I have a “label” for the targets/victims: “Normal”
Regular loving, caring, empathetic people with experiences…all different and yet all the same-”non-P”
Allure-where do old Narcissists go…family, old friends…heck…nursing homes…anywhere they can create chaos.
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Support for Kindheart is needed right now. If you are online and able to offer additional support please locate her post under the “Guideline” blog. Thank you everyone.
(Report abusive comment)
jofary says:
I’m not a newbie but I haven’t posted for a while and have been devouring all the information on this site since I split from my ex-N/P three years ago.
You know what’s REALLY funny to me in retrospect?
Just before I found out my ex-N/P was not who he claimed to be, I got the book “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout and was reading it in bed with him lying beside me!! LOL! He must have been dying of laughter inside!
But, even with the book and all it’s great advice, right there at my fingertips – I STILL DIDN’T RECOGNIZE HIM!!!
That was three years ago now and I can finally see the humor in it now but it was three very hard years and the realization that, in order to be “normal,” I had to eliminate the source of my weaknesses in the first place: my narcissistic mother.
But I still can’t figure out (despite this great article) whether he’s truly a Malignant Narcissist or a P. And you know what? It really doesn’t matter anymore because, like others have said, it all amounts to the same damned thing in the end: TOXIC!
I am now involved with a very calm, rationale, consistent (which, in mho, is the MOST important trait of all), and honestly loving person I’ve ever met.
So, my two bits worth is this: you can read all the self-help books you want, but at the end of the day it’s up to you to PAY ATTENTION to any red flags (which we’ve all had) and get the hell outta there if you’re feeling like you’re on puppet strings.
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
jofary…good to see you. At least he wasn’t lying there reading “Women Who Love…S/P/N/TOXIC PEOPLE”…he wasn’t, was he? Now, that would be SCARY!
Glad you found “consistent”!
I’m pretty much boring, but I haven’t been “discovered” yet.
Works for me. If it don’t for them, well, that’s life…I’ll stay under the radar…invisible can be good, too.
TOWANDO!…your two bits has value here.
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jim (Boring one) – Im laughing my ass off. If youre boring, than Im the quiet type with nothing much to say!
More like Im becoming so forgetful in my old age…Speaking of you being boring and me being tight lipped, meant to shoot you a comment earlier about your kilt comment. Do NOT laugh, based on your post Im assuming they have built in britches??? No clue, and not sure if I really want to know, but am curious?
And how in the world did you know I SO need a hint when it comes to certain jokes !! (ram/ewe) ps. GREAT hint!!! Thanks
(Report abusive comment)
jofary says:
Hi Jim,
My ex-N/P wasn’t much of an “intellectual” so he never read anything deeper than comic books. And I don’t think he even cracked one of those open during the time I was with him. But I’ve always wondered just what he WAS thinking while I was reading that book. Was he worried I’d clue in? Did he even have an inkling about his own pathology in the first place or had he convinced himself he was the mask he wore of the perpetually trodden on, undervalued, taken advantage of “Mr. Nice Guy”?
No matter.
For what it’s worth, the Narcissistic ex of the man I’m now involved with claimed to me (through my ex) he was boring, too. However, I’ve found him to be anything but that. He’s a fountain of knowledge and has hobbies (gasp!). If normal is boring, BRING IT ON!!
Is that another sign of a N/P? No hobbies? My ex had NO hobby other than stealing stuff off the internet and hiding his affairs.
(Report abusive comment)
jofary says:
One more question, if you please:
I have had a lifetime’s worth of N/P’s to deal with, including my mother, my first ex-hubby and now his wife, my second ex and his new spouse, a best girlfriend and they all have one common theme: THEY ARE ALL LASTBORNS.
Has anyone else seen this pattern?
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jofary – Interesting posts. So nice to hear you found a compatible partner, and a drama free relationship. Do you think he even noticed the title of the book you were reading? Was probably too caught up in himself. About having any inkling about his own pathology – mine use to joke that he lost his mind long ago – or he was crazy! At least I thought he was joking the way he would half heartedly say it. Think he might have been looking for a reaction. Who knows what goes through their hollow heads… hobby …he liked to go from job to job, woman to woman, meal ticket to meal ticket, one verbal abuse to another.
Are you sure you didnt recognize any signs and just didnt deny the fact something wasnt right? Or was he one of those who just never let the mask fall until the last day?
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jo – mine was last born, and few others Ive come across were only children. But I think it can happen to anyone. Why in the world are you having any contact with your first ex-hubby and his wife? Your second x hubby and his new spouse? Perhaps children? Otherwise, we sing NC song here!!!
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
DEar Jo,
Welcome back, glad you posted.
My P-son is last born, and left handed. I read somewhere, on Dr. Leedom’s articles I bet, that there are more of them that are LEFT HANDED than would be by random chance. Interesting point. wonder what else is “different” with them besides a higher than random rate of ADHD, B-Polar and left handedness? I also have an ADHD son who is NOT a P.
I agree with learnthelesson, though,, unless you HAVE TO HAVE CONTACT due to shared children, I would totally NC them ALL. Makes life much easier in the end! Middle, and beginning! LOL
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
learnEDthelesson…
Our education, well…I despise the “ed community’s” Life-Long Learners sound-bite…however…
1. You assumed the traditional Scottish “dress” had “built-in-britches?” hint: (you assume “too much”)
2. How would I know to provide a hint? A long history of my witticisms responded to by blank looks, people shuffling away from me, whispering behind hands to each other…a diminishing frequency of party invitations…shutting and locking doors as I approach as they flip the sign…”closed” from “open…need I go on?
To paraphrase advice in the Book Of Matthew…7:6?…no …that’s “pearls before swine.”..well, somewhere: listen more, speak less, or read more, post less…or the old…”They already think you’re an idiot…why open your mouth and remove all doubt” That pretty much covers it.
And, if you just can’t hold it in…give ‘em some hint, if they have no idea what you’re talkin’ about!
Hope that clarifies things for ya….and Jo…I’m #3 of 4…not last, in that respect. My ex-TOX…supposed to be #! of 3, but, I wasn’t there, there were no paternity tests…and with her history? So, I guess I mis-judged her? Nah…I was there for that part!
(Report abusive comment)
DebB says:
Steve, thanks for this very helpful article. As always, I’m amazed to have my Ex so accurately described, which in turn helps me figure out how to help my children who are now almost eight survive having him as a father. And it may help me deal with professionals in their lives and in the court system.
My Ex continues to be abusive toward me – classic N with some S tendencies – enough that I finally called the police and am taking everything to them. Because he is affecting my health and my ability to do the best that I can do for our children the police want to document and talk to him to let him know he’s been warned. Not that anyone expects him to stop – this is more for the court’s benefit because I am actually scared to have him know that I dared to accuse him of any wrongdoing.
It boggles my mind as I try to find ways to avoid and survive having to deal with this N/S as a co-parent to see people spending so much time – I can’t take the time to read these posts – being ‘fascinated’ by a dangerous person that they don’t even HAVE to deal with but choose to expose themselves to…but to each his own. I’m in survival mode here – but again, thankful, because I know what I’m learning here may help my children not be victims or may head off any learned behavior before it takes hold. Believe me, with twins, doing both of those is a big job that I work at daily – and will never get credit for doing. Only those of you here who understand may someday pat me on the back for running interference this way for my children.
As for me, I am so clear now in knowing what is healthy and what is not in terms of looking for another partner and that feels good. So thanks for that reinforcement.
And yes, NC is the only way to go…
In my case, NC or ignoring abusive messages makes him want to try harder but responding in ANY way to them makes his attacks way more effective and still makes him want to try HARDER to do more damage. Can’t win either way but I know the police will say NC is best and I’m trying to show that I am not inviting the verbal assaults or provoking more.
Elizabeth, your descriptions are so good; I think I’m going to print them and carry them with me… I feel so sorry for the new younger woman that he is about to marry.
Matt, I’m going to have to start searching for a new attorney – hopefully the best one here to help deal with this disordered individual I’m going to have to defend myself against when he goes after custody again. If you have any insight to share I’d be grateful. And my attorney finalized my divorce without getting my QDRO done first and I’m trying to get it done now but am afraid that I’m going to get the short end of the stick here…but that’s the least of my worries.
Thanks
D
(Report abusive comment)
jofary says:
Funny, maybe a study should be done on the correlation of birth order/handedness, etc and personality disorders.
N/C? God, I WISH!!! There is one child from the first marriage and two from the second. And, to top it all off, both N/P’s are working together to cause me as much suffering as possible. They hated each other before but, as the saying goes, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend…”.
There have been times when I wanted to die because of all this. I have taken up smoking and drinking (at 40! Lol!) to “hurry up” the process because why the hell would I want to be around at 60, financially ruined and with poisoned kids who hate me because of what I did to dad?!
But I’ve decided I’m gonna write a damned book about what I’ve gone through with these losers and hopefully MAKE money from them instead!
Is it me, or is the media catching on to these kinds of sob’s? There’s even a show about psychopaths now (Dexter) which isn’t really an accurate portrayal at all (and those of us who have been around the block probably “get that”), but the trend seems to be heading towards thinking about them….
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jim –
RE:
1. Either I assume to much …or I ASK TOO MUCH! Boy did I ever fall into that one. I googled the question and got the most surprising answer straight from a Scotsman (honestly never thought about it before…just assumed until your post) ..and now ROTFLMA in my kitchen at the Kilt jokes and the history.
2. Hint.. (Stick to discussing the “stock market, and politics”)
3. I not posting with you anymore, you were right, you are way too boring!
Stay well everyone, stay focused and stay NC!!!
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Having gone to Scottish Festivals for years to do scottish cattle demos (my Scottish Highland CAttle) and Border Collie demos, I have seen several guys that went “regimental” (no undies) who had an attack by a BRISK BREEZE who SHOULD NOT have gone regimental. LOL
BTW Jim and Learn-ED, NEITHER OF YOU ARE BORING! You are both waaaay to smart and funny to be boring!
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
DebB…kids make it tougher. But depending on the circumstances, and they’re all different, they are pretty perceptive.
I had the good fortune to find a good LCSW therapist early on. A lot of our discussions are about how to deal with parenting time violations, parental alienation, and my daughter’s welfare. She was 10 when the divorce started, and is now 13+.
A lot of areas have counselors available on a “sliding scale” based on financial circumstances, if money is a problem.
Take care in counseling for the kids…so-called licensed psychologists and psychiatrists are not always neutral. I hired one for my daughter and fired her after the third session…she was a recent divorcee with a 12 year old daughter…my daughter said “Dad, she’s taking Mom’s side.”
The Dr. and I had a short phone conversation…she was canned. And I had joint legal custody, so with her final check was a letter forbidding her to see or treat my daughter…
DebB-your children figure out who loves them. Be kind to yourself, read here (look for parenting at-risk children articles at this site, if you haven’t found them already), and talk to the people here…we’ll help any way we can.
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
MATT: Another “consultation customer” get up and running with your consultation business. WE NEED YA!
(Report abusive comment)
jofary says:
DebB,
We’re kindred spirits of a sort – having to deal with the destruction of exP’s and the children we so desperately want to protect from their influence.
My exs’ don’t give a rat’s ass about their kids except as a sort of “power conduit” to control me from afar. Oh, and they REALLY hate paying child support so they have tried (and continue to try) so hard to take custody away from me. I hate it. I hate how confused my children are made after visitation. Sometimes the poisoning is very sublime and doesn’t come to light for a very long time, and then it takes even longer to undo the damage.
Needless to say, I don’t have all the answers about how to protect children from the destruction of their S parents. This has been a major learning curve for me. All I have tried to do is be as truthful as I can possibly be right from the start, without “judging” the other parent. I have found that to be extremely difficult, almost impossible, if not approached with a completely non-judgmental and empathetic mind. Children want to know the “whys” of things, but they also don’t want to be told their father is a “bad person” because that reflects on them as a person, since they’re half of their parent.
In my case, that has been difficult because my second N/P molested our toddler daughter. I don’t know if he did it because she was vulnerable, available, and thought he could get away with it or if it was a tactic to make me sound like a hysterical, vindictive scorned ex-wife (which it did), but in any case, I had to somehow validate my young daughter’s experience AND somehow not condemn her father. So, I just talked to her about that particular behaviour being (extremely) inappropriate and taught her how to protect herself against it. The f**king legal system wouldn’t intervene because there was no “proof” ie – physical damage, and they simply couldn’t take the word of a toddler over an adult so she still has generous access with him. Maybe that’s called “bully-proofing,” I don’t know. All I know is sometimes the truth does, eventually, set us free. I honestly don’t know what else to do to protect them. It’s the best I can do.
However, I have recently gone through the custody/division of assets portion of my divorce from the second N/P I married and I CAN offer you some great advice for you with your worries about custody:
DON’T go through an oral trial! Use written affidavit evidence ONLY! I learned the hard way that my ex-N/P was far more manipulative than I thought and he was able to convince the judge I was the unreasonable one, not him (I’ve written to Donna – hopefully she’ll post my experience). At least with the written evidence provided by an Affidavit trial, you can defend yourself. It’s not so easily done when it’s oral, especially when dealing with someone as skillfully manipulative as P’s seem to be.
(Report abusive comment)
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
DebB, you are welcome.
And I’m glad you’re feeling so confident, looking ahead, knowing what you want, and the nonsense you don’t want! Steve
(Report abusive comment)
Jim in Indiana USA says:
learnEDthe lesson & Oxy:
ltl #1: your misperception of the mystery under the kilt was Lowlander propaganda. On my mother’s side, the regimental military dress was the Black Watch tartan. Thanks. Oxy-she’ll never see a parade of pipers the same…LOL
ltl #2: not those subjects here. I took enough econ in college for the degree, then lost interest in the rest..an educated idiot. Econ is my passion, politics my hobby. Not here…not with me.
ltl#3…that solves #2, and simplifies my life. If I could just get branded a “P”, no one would talk to me here…and the dishes might get done.
Well…the dishes…thanks everybody…stay safe and heal…
And Oxy and learnEDthelesson…guess who “forwarded” me an email today? Out of the blue. I’m not sure how to absorb it…a video. Hints: Stargazer would love it. Matt…CPR….
Me…I hope there’s not a subliminal message there. Details later…TTFN
(Report abusive comment)
justabouthealed says:
This weekend I had such a validating experience.
1) I told an old friend (who I had been out of contact with for about 30 years) the truth about my P experience and she INSTANTLY got it. Turns out she had an abusive husband, and a personality disordered family member. We were both so relieved that the other one GOT IT!
2) The P had tried to target her, with basically the same approach, and THAT was so validating also. She stayed away! GOOD for her! I’m proud of her!
3) The P had misled me about an event that she was present at, one of those lies that was so needless, so pointless, except it made him feel in control to deceive me and withhold information from me. That was early on, when he was professing deep love, so it was validating to learn that even THEN he was playing games with me. It was just more validation that he truly doesn’t have a clue about intimacy or what constitutes a relationship.
Anyway, I left my evening with my friend, just feeling so joyful. I have been “justabouthealed” and I think I’m there. I still have flashes of disgust about him, but not rage anymore….but I’m so glad I did tell him off when I last had contact, I needed that for MYSELF ……and basically I hope more and more people get educated on personality disorders.
And I will be very skeptical about people’s motives the rest of my life. I’m still doing some placating, and other behaviors I want to stop in my life, but at least right when I do them, I’m realizing…god, there I go again! So that is a step forward!
The point is, now when I think of the P I just feel so proud that I have his number and even if he ever dares come round again, I will have no problem telling him to go to hell, no matter who is listening.
A year ago, I was still bursting into tears each day….it seemed like this day would never come. Hang in there!!!!!! You all are wonderful!
(Report abusive comment)
Stargazer says:
Congratulations, justabout. I’m so glad you got this extra piece of validation. You deserve to be happy after what you’ve been through. It is SO empowering to be able to share our experiences with people in our lives and have them get it. When I told my story to a few people on my reptile site and they supported me, I cried tears of joy. You go, girl!
(Report abusive comment)
learnthelesson says:
Jim – Ya saved the best for last! lol Were you surprised you got “something” ? More hints tho… A video on snakes? lol There I go again with the questions…. oh ok… details later. For now sleep is calling…
Justabouthealed – My gf told me eventually I would have flashes of disgust of him, that I truly will want to rid my being of anything about him. She said I will one day be repulsed by him and unphased by his existence. I hope so because his misleading ways (and my acceptance of/allowance of such) really added to my near demise.
Perhaps Im half way there, because I still can get an emotional reaction to certain things. But much much much less than ever before.
And your summation that they are just clueless about intimacy or what constitutes a relationship (besides mirror us/others) sums it up.
Glad you have a validating experience bringing you that much closer to being justabouthealed. Happy 1 year mark on your healing journey.
(Report abusive comment)
henry says:
Some really good post above me. I don’t have anything intelligent to say, but I have come to a place in my healing where I don’t doubt myself and my actions as being responsible for the chaos and the ending of that past toxic relationship with the dysfuctional cluster B. I was reacting to being disrespected and lied to over and over again. And in the bitter end of the relationship I was probably as toxic as he was. The only difference is he knew what he was doing and I didn’t, I was reacting to someone evil with a motive. Love doesn’t ask why – so I am going to stop questioning if I loved him or not because I was constantly asking why. So maybe I never loved him. He was down and out and homeless and I wanted to help him, how it went from that too where it did I will never understand. I had the best of intention’s all the while asking myself why? But one year away from him, I can honestly say with no doubt – I am better off with out him and all memorys of him are turning to disgust……
(Report abusive comment)
Jen2008 says:
I had also read in several places the “left handed” connection. My ex is the third born, out of four children. However, he is left handed.
(Report abusive comment)