“Women Who Love Psychopaths” in the new Lovefraud Store
PDF Scientists and researchers have written many books and papers about the psychopathic personality. But little has been written about the people who get snared by these predators.
A book by Dr. Liane Leedom and Sandra L. Brown, M.A., fills the void. It’s called Women Who Love Psychopaths—Inside the Relationships of Inevitable Harm. The book is available in the new Lovefraud Store, which launched today.
Although we recognize that both men and women can be psychopaths, this book is about psychopathic men and their female partners. It discusses the personality traits of the psychopath, and how he snags his victims.
Groundbreaking research
The really groundbreaking work of the book is the original research that the authors conducted with the women who fell in love with the psychopaths. They conducted a survey, and more than 75 women participated. The survey included four different assessments. They were:
- Partner Rated Assessment of Pathological Men, which the authors developed based on the symptom lists for antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder.
- P-Scan, a tool that allows non-clinical people to rate the symptoms of psychopathy in another person. It was developed by Dr. Robert Hare.
- An opportunity for the women to tell the stories of their relationships.
- Temperament and Character Inventory, developed by Dr. Robert Cloninger, which the women answered about themselves.
Risk factors
Analyzing the survey results, the authors determined that the women were indeed involved with psychopaths. But the most interesting part of the research was about the women themselves. It showed that that the women who got involved in these relationships did have traits in common, and they’re not what you would think.
The women were:
- Extraverts. The women were outgoing and excitement-seeking. Psychopaths are also extraverts, and this is what made them appealing and exciting to the women.
- Invested in relationships. The women became deeply attached to their romantic partners, which is why they didn’t give up when the going got rough.
- Cooperative. These women value getting along with others and were willing to compromise their own interests for the larger picture. Needless to say, psychopaths took full advantage of their willingness to be cooperative.
These traits are, in fact, risk factors, which may lead a woman to be targeted.
Answers the questions
After describing the traits of the psychopaths and the women who love them, Brown and Leedom discuss the relationship dynamics—how the predators hold on to the women even when it was apparent that the relationship was unhealthy.
For women who have been in these relationships, Women Who Love Psychopaths answers the question, “How did this happen?” And by identifying the temperamental characteristics that make women susceptible to psychopaths, it may prevent you, or someone you know, from falling into the trap.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Staying sane,
Just my perspective, but I DON’T TRUST ANYONE until they PROVE THEY ARE TRUSTWORTHY….rather than trustihng everyone until they prove they aren’t trustworthy.
I am CAUTIOUS with people and when i see a red flag (sign of dishonest of ANY kind) ZIP they are in my “don’t trust this person” file forever. ONE lie is enough. It doesn’t matter how long or how close we have been. It is called boundaries.
My boundary is that ANYONE who lies to me or tries to “cheat” me in any way is OUT of my life—anyone who throws a “fit” or “tantrum” or calls me or anyone else names, is rude to a waiter or a store clerk, has a grandiose sense of their own “worth” and expects to be treated as “special” and the rules don’t apply to them—-OUT OF MY LIFE, FOREVER.
Sometimes we have to “deal with” these people because we work with or for them, but we DON’T HAVE TO TRUST THEM.
This spring I dumped a “friendship” of over 25 years that I thought was very solid because even after all this time, the man tried to cheat me and broke his word….it wasn’t over much, about $56, but after breaking his word, when confronted about it, he denied it. He didn’t “break the deal, he just changed it 180 degrees” to HIS advantage and my dis-advantage. Oh, well. BYE BYE BOZO!
The thing is, if you will CHEAT OR LIE “a little” you will cheat and lie A LOT if it is to your advantage to do so. I want ONLY honest and good people inside my “circle of trust”—-
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Stayingsane says:
OxDrover
I have the red flag radar at the moment in constant operation…even with people I previously trusted I am asking myself…hang on..
I totally respect what you say, its so nice to read what you say, security, protection has taken on a new meaning for me. Even yesterday I get a great protection for my computer…its got the latest virus tracking this that and the other…and I felt, yes great…safe.
The thing is new viruses appear everyday they get in by pretending to appear innocent and the tracker observes its behaviour…one wrong move and its to the virus vault ….
I do not think having a boundary that is wall like, or made of steel will actually keep a P or and S out…they constantly evolve new ways of miming normal behaviour. Safety and boundary’s are illusions at the end of the day..I know it because this guy was the absolute kindest, most attentive, reliable etc. early on…and then it took a horrible turn when I began to experience the double bind, and start naming it as it happened…game up I was tossed aside, robbed and emotionally destroyed (for now)
I do not want just good and honest people, most of us have blind spots, good people in poverty will steal to feed their kids
Good people can have momentary desperate feelings of lack and scarcity and take advantage of things without being conscious of it…get through a day without lying at some level..but the thing is as long as I am amongst the “negativity” that seems to be so part of this life experience…I feel I am in the mix, relating and engaging with it keeps me sharp and also I feel its important to face the P’s and S’s ‘out there’ lest they gain greater control…maybe then I can advise someone or witness it first hand and turn negativity around in some way…
If I was hurt again the way I have been hurt? it would kill me! and I agree about caution and red flags totally…I’m consumed at the moment with thoughts of revenge..it does not feel good, so i am observing it rather than taking any action…still the nightmare…chasing him down, on planes, in different cities….the horrible things he has said to me that I carry…I just feel I want to live a loving life…and yet to be loving to this slime ball now is to be ‘cancelled out’ by him…he gets away with a felony and fraud, without batting and eyelid.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Stayingsane,
Your feelings of betrayal and your desire for revenge at this point is very NORMAL. I think that the desire to get revenge is a normal human emotion when we have been betrayed especially when it is someone we trusted up close. However, I also realize that for me the feelings and thinking about “revenge” (science has shown that just thinnking about revenge actually “lights up” the pleasure centers of our brain) is not LONG TERM a good thing for US. It makes us bitter, consumes our mind and time and thoughts, so putting away that desire for revenge and getting the bitterness about them out of our heart (doesn’t mean we feel gushy sweet toward them, just not BITTER) helps US on our road to healing.
This healing journey starts out about getting away from them and healing the wounds they made in us, but as you go further along the Road To Healing, you will find that the journey becomes less about getting away from them, than about growth and taking care of ourselves.
In most instances NO CONTACT with someone you have determined is behaving like a P is the best method. Beating them at their own game while engaging them is most often a losing proposition. Mainly because you fight fair and they fight ditry. Dealing with them is like ” taking a KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT, you will ALWAYS LOSE.”
It is an unfortunate fact that those who “get justice” or even “get revenge” or get back tghe money, property, etc. that they were conned out of is in the SMALL MINORITY OF VICTIMS. It is a “red letter day” when a victim prevails even in court. Sad but TRUE. As you read more and more here, you find that the victims getting back what they had stolen is the EXCEPTION, and very rare.
Because of this, most of the time it is better to save the energy you will spend trying to “get even” or even “get justice” for healing yourself and putting your life back together.
God bless and keep on learning, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!!
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Stayingsane says:
OxDrover
Now I am down with the flu… after 2 weeks of hell in Latvia, meeting family members and learning the extent of the lie has taken its toll. I’m now feverish and sore throat…and do you know what I’m thinking…He would be happy if I died!!! I Hereby surrender! I hand it over…need to save my energy like you said…can’t work it out at the moment. I’m just staying close to lovefraud…I visit everyday..it’s my sanity central station (no other people understand like you do) I want to wrap up, have a cup of tea. That’s all for now. Thanks…God bless…knowledge is power
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justabouthealed says:
Keep logging in. I’m just getting better after the strep, and being sick pulls you down mentally. Just know any extra bad feelings are just part of being sick and the whole cloud will eventually lift. Sleep lots.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Stayingsane,
Stress takes a toll on our immune systems, I have been healthy all my life and BOOM, one infection right after another, several life-threatening. The immune system just takes a horrible hit. there is no difference between the brain and the body, they are ONE and anything that effects one part effects the other.
There are some good threads here on the effects of stress.
Take care, pamper yourself and keep the stress as low as possible, it takes a long time to recover from stress, so keep stress low, don’t push yourself unless absolutely necessary, and give it time. ((((hugs)))) and God bless.
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sabrina says:
Thanks LTL for taking the time for the 12 S traits. I will be printing this to give to others that are healing and in need of understanding! THis is the most concise, expanded version I have seen. Certainly paints a clear picture, much appreciation to you for giving us this!
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tink3010 says:
Healing Heart, your post on jan 10th is just amazing. It is exactly the place visited by myself. i become infatuated and maybe manifest a “refresher course” it is like the universe takes over and lets you know it will take matters in its own hands. as time goes this refresher course is quicker to take effect.
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Rosa says:
Hi Tink.
Cute name….short for Tinkerbell?
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tink3010 says:
yes rosa, thank you
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Frank Lee Speaking says:
“Invested in relationships. The women became deeply attached to their romantic partners, which is why they didn’t give up when the going got rough.”
Love is indeed blind.
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tink3010 says:
love certainly is blind. Is it a conscious decision we make over time when sharing life with one of these types. If so is it denial or simply a total ignorance to their abilities?
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Joe Hubbard Street Survival says:
In general, most people do not instantaneously switch from being a non-violent person into a raging lunatic overnight. Garden variety non-violent people do not “snap” or decide on the spur of the moment to solve every problem with full-on violence. Instead, the road towards psychopathic violence is an evolutionary one, with numerous “danger indicators” along the way to watch out for.
In his book The Gift of Fear, Gavin DeBecker talks about the warning signals that you should watch out for before the outcome of an incident becomes violent or out of control. A threat is just one observable behavioural trait; others may include the feelings of hopelessness, deep depression or fantasies of destruction and revenge observed in behaviour, writings, conversations, drawings and other actions.
All in all, early phase awareness and listening to your “gut” intuition plays a big part in recognizing just who you are getting involved with.
Peace
Joe
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myheart says:
Yes I had red flags everywhere in loud and clear, but I didn’t know about them since last few months. And yes this post fits in my case as well, I was very extrovert and he was attracted to that, and I felt we will have very exciting life together with lots of hobbies in common. He showed me that exciting life. But everything was a lie.
I ignored all the red flags all of them. It did hit me pretty hard before marriage, when he totally bypassed one of my very simple suggetion, when he claimed we will always do things together. It was a small thing, so no issue, but it sticked to my mind even after 6 years, that the way he just brushed it, like he was in a trans and didn’t hear me at all. Funny thing was he heard me, but he didn’t show any sign of hearing.
I let it go, thought may be I was wrong understanig the event. But after marriage this was our daily life…. It was his way or no way on every single issue….. Yes I loved him deeply got very attached based on what he showed me before marriage and was heart broken when other side showed up. I feel pretty stupid today, knowing I begged him so many times “honey you are a good guy, I know you are, I need find that good guy, I know I will find him, he is somewhere inside you”. I didn’t know good guy never existed, this was the real guy, who I don’t know….
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skylar says:
Myheart,
your story is mine. I had 25 years of faithfully believing that the murdering, pedophile, multi-sexual, evil, two-dimensional creature, was a “good guy”.
I can only offer you love and hope. It will get better. It’s all about you. Really, you must believe that when the good people on earth STOP ENABLING and ACCEPTING their bad behavior, it will go away. Seeking peace is not the answer, that’s what they are counting on: We are the sheeple who just want to graze on the grass.. Seeking JUSTICE IS THE ANSWER.
You must do whatever you can to build up your strength and INTEGRITY. REMOVE THE PROGRAMMING that made you addicted to drama. Then you will be safe and you can PEACEFULLY SLAY THE DRAGON.
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myheart says:
So now what???
Now I know what a sciopath and how I got hooked by him. So now I have this knowledge. How will I know next one will not be another one. Because ex spath was very normal when I met him, our sharing information was pretty open, we talked about open communication as corner stone of our relationship.
Yes I know now he lied a lot and hid a lot. But how would I know the next person I meet, he is not telling the truth, when he sounds so cradible….
It is hard, but we just can’t aply same formula on everybody, but what is surity we will not get hurt by another spath. Because I beleive they come in all shape and color, one formula may not fit to another.
I do like man who are educated, and take care of themselves well, civilized, dress clean, who are romantic, how would I know this next person is not a spath..
It is very confusing.
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darwinsmom says:
A good question we all are bothered with I’m sure, myheart.
I’ve been thinking on it a bit myself the past few days, and especially this morning. And I’m of the idea that I will need my time once I start dating again, time and peace and space for myself to let the impressions sink in. If at any moment I feel I must take action because otherwise I may lose the guy showing interest, then that is a red flag already, and instead I must take a step back. A guy does not have to be perfect. We would not have stayed with our spaths for so long, if we believed a man needs to be perfect. But a healthy man with a sincere interest will respect our need for space and time to make up our own mind, and stick around, won’t mind to date as friends without benefits, etc. If they cannot respect that, they will not respect us in the relationship either, spath or no spath.
I’m not afraid anymore to mention to any man who shows me interest and wonders why I am not eager to kiss or become more phsyically intimate, “Look, I know it’s not your fault, but I’ve been hurt very badly in the past, and I need space and time to make up my own mind. I think I like you. I am interested in getting to know you better, but I just do not wish to rush into intimate relationships anymore.” If he’s not that interested or not as understanding and walks away, or starts to mention he has another woman chasing him… then it would never have worked out anyway. If he is interested, I’m sure they will understand, and will still want to spend time with us in many ways, while still leaving us space and time.
And as soon as I feel a dangerous thrill and think “he’s a bad boy,” I’ll be looking the other way, and not feel pity or sympathy anymore.
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KatyDid says:
DarwinsMom,
I have a dif perspective regarding healthy men and relationships. I think if a someone is emotionally healthy and NOT needy (a rescuer), once he/she knows we are so damaged that we need space and time, an emotionally healthy person would not chose to be with us. Not until we are healthy. Anyone who remains interested in a damaged woman for intimate relationship purposes has something else going on, rescuer? Exploiter?
I don’t want to be with, nor would be interested in a man who needs to emotionally work on himself either. If he’s not healthy, he’s not available for me. Trying to have a relationship with a damaged person who had not healed was a lesson that I already ignored and subsequently learned the hard way. (as I say, sometimes God snaps a finger on our head and if we don’t listen, he uses a 2×4)
But seems to me that having friendships is a great way to re-develop intimacy skills. Maybe that is what you mean?
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darwinsmom says:
Yes. For now I’m only interested in friendships.
But even if I’m healed and healthy, I know I’ll take my time and space. Not because I’m damaged, but because honestly I have rushed myself into intimacy, therefore ending up being confused with desire, and then desire and longing becomes the controller of thinking, and then you end up pushing your possible uncomfortableness aside. So, I mean that I will take the time and space between dates that I need to feel both comfortable and not tempted to ignore red flags.
Yes, they mirror us to con us, but before he targeted me I was convinced he was a bad boy and I knew that I should stay out of his way. When he pulled back his interest because of my initial indifference, my ego kicked in for the attention as well as the “oh, poor guy, I hurt him” kind of thinking. And exactly because we rushed into things soon after, I saw and knew stuff of how he conned others into lending money and such. Had I taken more time, instead of rushing myself into intimacy, I would have been much more open to the signals. There were red flags from the start, some I didn’t know and now do, some were just my gut feelings but I was gonna stay “open-minded”, give him a chance to prove the contrary. I helped myself to be set up.
I don’t intend to make a guy run after me and wait until I’m healed. But if I’m interested, I’m gonna reserve time and space for myself not to rush it and become willfully blind for clues.
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myheart says:
Thanks darwinsmom and KatyDid
For valuable thinking. I am going through all this. I know once you are intimate you become vulnerable and specially women. I guess idea about meeting somebody for freindship apeals me better, and I will take enough time to understand the person. I know if somebody doesn’t respect the boundaries, then it is a red flag for me, whether guy is spath or not spath.
In my age I will be more looking for an healthy relationship not a short term thrill and broken after that. So I guess what you both are saying, first I need to learn, what boundaries do I need, and how firm I will beimplementing them and then I should have enough strength to walk away, if my boundaries are crossed. Yes I was pushed before to cross my boundaries, because I thought spath poor him, he is alone for 5 years, and as he said he didn’t have intimacy since his wife died, I felt a lot fo respect for him and felt very special. And to provide him a ready made family, I agreed to rush in marriage, which turn out to be total disaster and here I am on this site.
So I guess it is more about what I want, than he wants and firm on it. Because I know I can’t go through another spath in my life anymore.
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KatyDid says:
Darwinsmom,
Well let me be honest and reveal that I will never likely be in a situation where a guy would even think of running after me. I’m betting no one will ever ask me out on a date for the rest of my life. Such as it is for people who look like me. And amazingly, less attractive men seem to be angry that beautiful women rejected them and they like to vent on us less physically gifted women. Many don’t appreciate the love we give or the beauty of our personalities, (or at least not enough to enter a relationship…)
SO… you have a possibility in life I don’t have. But what strikes me as HEALTHY is your plan not to rush into intimacy, b/c rushing is NOT healthy.
The point of dating is not to work on a relationship but to get to know a person and judge whether a relationship with them is LIKELY to work out. To many people spend very little in the ‘getting to know them’ stage. (putting the cart before the horse.)
One of the best pieces of advice I learned (post spath) was that it’s OUR JOB to protect ourselves FROM getting hurt. That means it’s our life’s JOB to choose who we let into our inner circle, and who is in the middle circle, and who is kept in the outer area of our lives. NOT so easy to do, is it? BUt it’s another reason why little girls/boys should not date. They don’t have the maturity to protect their intimate selves from attack by choosing AFTER knowing the person well enough to let into their intimacy circle. Once the wounding is done, it infects every relationship after. Obviously, it was a lesson I learned too late…. but your plan is also proof we can get healthy even if we learn the lesson later….
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super chic says:
Yes, I think staying away from bad boys is #1 !!!!!
I don’t think I have to tell a new “friend” that I have been hurt in the past.
One of the things I learned here is… to hold my cards close to my heart,
I don’t have to put them down on the table right away. I’m not going to tell
them what I want right away… or they will just mirror that, you’re right.
Whatever I say I want or need… they will say that is who they are.
I’m going to let them blab and give them enough rope to see if they hang themselves.
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darwinsmom says:
I would certainly not mention it at the start. It’s not done anyway. I did not even tell much to the P. He only knew, much latern on the story of the guy who had said he couldn’t choose and how that has been the only person I had hated, and well he met some of my short liaisons when he was in Belgium. I never told him about the Inspiring Soul either, a break-up and love that basically shaped and plunged me to my life. Nor did he know about the relationship before, because it’s too far in history and I don’t care about it anymore. The story of the Inspiring Soul still has plenty of importance to me, as does the Inspiring Soul, which was why I could never tell it. I thought he would not comprehend that I might have had a bigger love in my life once than I felt for him. Plus it’s a long story to comprehend, and he didn’t seem to have the attention span for it…. LOL (that should have told me enough)… Actually, on many stuff he never knew much about my life and past at all. He just knew I had been single for 8-9 years, that I had fooled around in those years, that I loved teaching, that I once had kicked a guy out for telling me he couldn’t choose between another girl and myself, that I used to tourlead in the summer and was good at it and been in a hurricane 5 with a group once, and he knew I would rather stand up against someone if I thought it was right, than turn away.
Anyway; if a guy I might be dating in some future would want to rush it at some point, during the dating, but he seems otherwise healthy so far and no red flags have been ringing, then I don’t see why I cannot mention that I’m doing this because I’m obliged to take my time and space to decide who I let into my inner circle, and that I learned it the hard way, without going into the details.
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KatyDid says:
Okay DarwinsMom,
Can I just say I am totally jealous and envious b/c you get to have a choice I will never have. But that’s okay. I am happy for others to find love (or even just some hot healthy sex). I am a romantic. And as I prev. posted, you have a healthy game plan.
Katy, who wished she had the inner/outer circle lesson before the spath… b/c that would have protected me from MY SPATH.
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darwinsmom says:
Katydid
I’m not sure whether I’ll get that choice. First of all, I didn’t even think of myself as attractive until I was 28-29. As a teen most guys would tell me I was too boyish, not feminine enough. My first long term boyfriend I was with for 5.5 years compared my facial features to that of a comic book figure (wow, what a compliment, huh). And I thought I was rather plain looking. I only started to discover my feminity and my attractiveness, because of Inspiring Soul’s reactions. And yes, there was lots of interest afterwards, and I needed all that fooling around to realize that I was actually a beautiful woman. It’s been my trap for years. I was actually so insecure on my attractiveness, that I often tended to fall for the bad boys to prove to myself that I was sexy.
But it was incredibly superficial. At some point, it just made me feel more lonely. Because most of those men just went for the hot girl that got their brains on fire, but were themselves often without much substance to make me feel intellectually challenged, let alone give me a profound emotional experience. Before I met my P, I was done with the fooling around. I was done going to parties and bars. I had built up my circle of intimate friends, and I was completely tired of the superficial befriending and or fooling around. I was craving for substance. And I was getting to that place where if I couldn’t have a substantial relationship, I’d rather be alone, and felt at peace with the idea.
And I know that it was that stupid little damnable ego of mine that couldn’t handle the retraction of the P’s attention that got me into this mess.
Damn, realizing this, has got me bawlng my eyes out, while I’m writing.
Yes, I’m attractive, 5ft11, athletically built but womanly curves, and a sweet face, and a sunny smile with freckles. But basically, the past 10 years I met nobody with substance, or someone who wanted or could know more than just my body. And when I thought I had found someone, it turns out it was all fake. A decade has gone by, and I loved someone once, and it turns out I loved someone who did not exist. I think I met 2-3 decent guys in that decade, 2 in which I was alas not interested myself (though it soothed my soul and I took it as an extreme compliment), and the third was scared off by a meddlesome “friend” and met someone else.
I’m really thinking that when I get back from my trip to Peru, and am in a bit of mental shape again, I finally need to go to the fertilization clinic and make plans to co-parent with my best friend, who’s gay. That was on my to-do-list the summer I met Creep. Once I was in the relationship I had to scrap that. And if I have to wait another decade before I meet someone else again that I might love, I’ll be in the menopauze.
I understand your envy. But let me assure you I know how you feel. I felt like that until I was 28. And then I learned that being pretty just makes you meet a lot of men who just aren’t interested in getting to know you.
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darwinsmom says:
BTW Katydid,
I don’t know why you think you won’t have a choice anymore… and I’m curious why you are so sure of that. Just wanted to share that I think all of us have felt it at some point in our lives for some reason or other: how we perceive our own attractiveness, age, disabilities…
I think we are all sisters in that aside from the P or Spath experience.
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KatyDid says:
Darwinsmom,
As a romantic, I enjoy matchmaking. (makes me feel validated that love exists when I see others have good relationships).
You have all the ingredients. After that, it’s a numbers game to get you exposed to as many potential interested as possible. You’d be an easy one for me. I’d ask what sports you like besides hiking? and what country you live in?
I walk. I enjoy it a lot. I meet LOTS of people on my walks,even single guys but clearly while they will talk to me there’s no interest. I’m okay with that a my age. and They’re not mean about it.
Guys rarely walk (unless with women or they’re WAY outta shape.) The guys run. If you walked my neighborhood, it seems they come out of the woodwork if someone like you ran by. HA! Seriously, festivals, concerts, rodeos (okay that’s regional to me), air shows, firemen festivals, are great exposure places and not the meat markets of bars/fitness centers b/c REGULAR guys go with their married buds to festivals, etc. I don’t promote church for meetings b/c I think that’s too personal a journey and b/c there’s some seriously messed up there.
Really. If you aren’t meeting eligible guys, it’s b/c you are IGNORING them. I have a beautiful daughter. I’ve watched men hurt themselves when doing a double/triple take. She doesn’t even see them. But there’s a next step once you take your blinders off and SEE them. Brief eye contact. A Smile. A comment. A benign response to them like “hey” Or a benign question, like ” ya know what time it is?” They’re just looking for an opening. Give them one!
Numbers. Throw out the bottom feeders. If you know they’ve dated someone sleezy, they are not for you. (that’s what I told my husband when I found out he’d been screwing a certain person, that if I’d known he’d do her, I’d never date him b/c it revealed lack of discernment.)
I met Hugh Thompson who is a historian that does research in the area of Mechu Pechu. He discovered lost remains of a soltice settlement that Hiram Bingham found and then was lost again b/c his map was bad and Hiram forgot where the site was. He TAKES people with him on his trips, they pay their way, but the people you can get exposed to is FANTASTIC. So if you like to read, that is another recommendation, book festivals. Intelligent men, great authors, and even if you don’t meet a nice man, you meet other interesting people who may want to introduce you to a nice man.
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KatyDid says:
Darwinsmom,
I am of an age and not interested in old broken down men, health issues, bad habits, overweight. So guess I am as bad as unattractive men who reject women like me b/c I reject them just as quickly…
Men who do have it together want women who are financially sound… and I’ve been defrauded by my husband. I want someone financially sound too. So I’d demand something I can’t give.
I am a bit of a weirdo. I like so many subjects, and I like to explore. The man would have to be intelligent and curious.
Finally, my husband gifted me with a non curable disease, so I can never be intimate although I would not be able to stand being in a relationship and not have intimacy.
So in the years I have left, I’d rather pursue my joys and not deal with the pain, or even the possible pain of another lost love b/c I don’t have time to waste Hurting anymore. I’d rather spend my time gathering my perfect moments and enjoying the company of good friends.
But if I were 40 years younger, you’d bet I’d be introducing myself and saying hello to as many people as I could!!
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Ox Drover says:
Katydid,
Well I can relate to the conversation you and Darwin’s mom are having…and frankly the ODDS of older women finding reasonable men are pretty bad unless we are willing to lower our standards too the guys at the wino shelter because men can get women who are 10-15-20 years younger and they have the opportunity to do so.
I’m like you Katy, I’ll be 65 this fall and I do not want a man who is morbidly obese, broken down, bad health, smoker, drinker, or insolvent….or a cheat. I either want an intelligent man who is financially solid, reasonable health and no serious bad habits and not dishonest….and that same guy that would interest me can find a woman 40-45 who looks a hell of a lot better than I do and so….no big line outside my door for a relationship!
Hey, today is Friday the 13th folks…but it was good luck for me. Everything around here lately has broken down or had to be replaced….big time, but got my diesel truck fixed for the price of two new batteries, and my riding lawn mower that I thought was not worth fixing for $150!!!! WHOOPIE!!!!! Thank you Jesus!
My duckies are growing and my tomatters are growing, eggs are a hatching, green beans are growing and I have SALT FREE TACO SHELLS! A whole case of em! Whoopie!!! Life is good! Gonna even make me some sodium free bean dip to go with’em!
And I have two new little girl kitties…one all gray, and one gray and white with extra toes (My tom cat Shrodinger has extra toes on all 4 feet) and the two new little girls are sooooo cute! They are still living in a big dog crate right now til Shrodinger gets used to them and their worming gets done! Then they can live in the barn and run free.
You know, after my husband died and I lost that companion, husband, best friend, and lover…I just about “lost it” that I would be alone the rest of my life…and when the P_ came along and started “love bombing” me (looking for a new respectable wife to cheat on and keep his harem in line) I fell for it, and thought I had been rescued from the river of despair—but what I thought was a floating life saver turned out to be an alligator…but now I would love to have a companion, best friend, husband and lover, but I am OK WITHOUT IT as well. I’m happy and content just working on me, just enjoying the small things in life like baby duckies and kitties and growing things, and shooting turtles off the pond bank, and learning to cook without salt, and just looking out at the wild flowers out my window and feeling gratitude to God that I am still alive, relatively healthy and have a roof over my head, clothes to wear, food to eat and the love of my son D and some very good friends. Most of all, my life is essentially drama free, And P-FREE and peaceful. What else could I ask for if I had “three wishes.?”
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darwinsmom says:
Hehehe, that’s sweet
Hmmm, I live in Belgium, Europe in the second biggest city of the country (1M people)… it has the air of being a metropole, but to Londonders, Parisians and New Yorkers it’s no bigger than a provincilia city.
I paint, I write, I read, I tourlead adventure trips… I like any outdoor activity: rock climbing, rafting, scubadiving, hiking, horse riding, swimming (jumping in waterfalls and lakes and the likes) and most of all surfing. My favourite environment is the jungle and the tropics, but also mountains as well as beaches. I love trips that both mean culture as well nature and outdoor activity. My problem of course as a tourleader is that I’m in a professional relationship with my small group. Some men do hit on me, but then often they soon enter a power-game or start to rival. And as the lady in charge, and having lots on my mind, it’s hard to feel more than professional friendship to the decent guys. Our tourleader men seem to have less problems with that.
I actually do like to go to the pub to sit at the counter and talk with the mates and pals (I have a lot of pals, most of my friends are actually men). It relaxes me. I also like to go dancing, for the dancing. And when I dance I tend to be oblivious of my surroundings. Don’t like to get drunk or intoxicated by anything, prefer to feel centered, myself.
Church isn’t much of an option here: they’re empty, except for tourists. And while spiritual minded, I’m not religious. Actually, I’m an atheist.
I love debate, I love delving into scientific subjects (sometimes I bring scientific literature along for my holiday reading, rather than novels). I love to train tourleaders into group dynamics, I love teaching. I love my tourleader company that sets up so many social events for adults. My mom thought Mensa clubs might help me, but turned out they were into matchbox gathering. Wasn’t my thing really, hehe
The one thing I abhor is running and jogging. Never liked it, and I wasn’t allowed to because of my lower back. Would feel as if my hips were torn apart, cause I have 2cm difference in my legs. And now with the cartilege issue of the knee I had, it certainly is not recommendable.
Anyway, it is Friday night, and I’m tempted to try and see whether some of the buddies are in my local pub.
But it’s true. I overlooked many guys. Some that had the nerve, but it just wasn’t there for me. And I felt very sorry and angry at myself for not feeling it. I hope my mind and eyes have changed perception. But I’m not totally sure yet. I have been born with esthetical morals. As a toddler I at some point refused to go stay-over at my grandma’s. My mom first feared it might have had to do something with my narcistic cousin who was 12 and liked to pester me. Turned out I was upset because my grandma dressed me in the wrong color combinations, because she wanted to save on the washing.
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kim frederick says:
Yeah, I relate, too.
I never had any problem attracting men. Up until I was about 47, I felt that I was attractive. Not anymore. I’ve gained 20 pounds and my face is aging.
Add to that the fact that I do not own much of anything, do not have a decent job(yet),and drink too much, the liklihood of me finding a good guy is practically nill.
The four phone call guy of a few weeks ago is a case in point. I heard he got really drunk, started a fight with his room-mate, ended up on the front lawn, having an epileptic siezure, the cops were called, they took him to the Hospital, where he punched a nurse and then a cop. Sounds like someone I need in my life like a hole in my head.
I went to the Library last evening, and a decent looking man about my age approached me and was actually flirting with me. I was pretty unresponsive and found it a bit off-putting. He looked familiar to me, and even though I don’t remember him, even before he walked over to me I had an uck response to him. I could have known him from a bar, or possibly AA, but only know I didn’t want to talk to him.
Someone who is a member of my extended family (not blood
came on to me pretty hard and heavy about a year ago, and I was astounded because he is quite a bit younger than I am, and he is really attractive…he’s a train wreck though and I didn’t go for it.
I’ll tell you though, if I was younger and dumber I would have.
I’m just not that interested anymore. Any man who would have me would be REALLY bad for me, so I’m ok alone. I have more peace in my life than I ever have.
Pinky-doodle is yanking my chain, lately, though. He doesn’t want to spend any time in the house with me, and it makes me sad.
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Ox Drover says:
I think it was Groucho Marx, Kim, that said he had “too much class to join any club that would have him as a member.” LOL Yea, I’ve got too much class to date anyone who would want a date with me! LOL Case in point is that widower guy that wanted to take a joy ride in my airplane….and then showed up a few weeks ago after being married only 4 months complaining of how tough marriage was. LOL
Yea, I think you missed that bear trap with that guy….glad you did.
Oh, well, life ain’t too bad at all when you get right down to it….P-FREE and DRAMA – FREE, what better could I ask for?
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candy says:
Ok people. What is the attraction of sharing your life with someone? Hair in the plughole, dishes in the sink, unmade bed, dirty laundry, breaking wind, shaving foam in the sink, pants on the floor and generally messing the place up.
Well, that’s MY mess and I clean it up so I don’t need a man in my house that does those things too!!
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Ox Drover says:
Well, my husband did the grocery shopping, mowed the lawn, encouraged me, made love to me (not just sex), thought I was wonderful and stoked my ego, still looked at me with lust in his eyes, made me laugh, frustrated the heck out of me sometimes when I knew something he didn’t know and he wouldn’t listen (he was an engineer) Made me laugh, stoked my ego, had a big ration of shared memories and fun times. Understood me, liked me anyway. Ate anything I cooked without complaint. Bragged to his friends how wonderful I was.
Yea, I guess that’s about it…so I put up with the breaking wind, hair in the sink, toothpaste in the sink, extra dirty laundry, the constant spending money for tools I didn’t think he needed…feeding a houseful of people every day who came to visit like a continual “open house”—and listening to his snoring. Yea, I’d do it all again in a New York minute….
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candy says:
Sounds like a really super guy Ox. There is a saying ‘it is better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved’
I think that sometimes on here we focus on spath too much and forget the good times we’ve had with others.
You are one lucky woman:)
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KatyDid says:
Oxy,
I love your post. You wrote so true. I am younger but what you wrote is so true for my age group too. When men break down at old age, they are way more broke down than women.
Someone once said I was “giving up” when I acknowledged no one that I’d be interested in would want me. I didn’t see it that way b/c how can finding purpose and contentment and joy be “giving up”? Am I happy to be alone the rest of my life? Well I’m not alone, I am merely solo. That’s not a hopeless attitude. I feel free, able to do as I please. It’s self indulging without the guilt!
What makes me a little sad is that I have never been loved (more specifically I have been told they couldn’t love me b/c of ME but they couldn’t tell me what was so objectionable about me that they couldn’t love me). But as a romantic, I am glad to know it existed for others like it did for you Oxy.
So… what the heck, I’ll just be loving to myself….and loving to my friends, their kids, my neighbors, my new puppy as soon as it gets here, soldiers, my fav authors and musicians, etc. etc. etc.
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Ox Drover says:
Katydid,
I don’t feel like I am “giving up” either….because there is a remote possibility I might find someone to share my happiness with, but I KNOW that NO ONE can MAKE ME HAPPY….I am responsible for that.
My husband was NOT perfect, we butted heads plenty of times, but he was smart, fun, loved me….and I do miss that, but I do have those memories and they are treasured for sure. But I also realize that my happiness shouldn’t have come so much from HIM loving me….because when he died, I was bereft to the point of being vulnerable to the love-bombing psychopath because I felt so alone, so old, so undesirable. Actually, I’m almost 7 years older now than I was when he died, but I FEEL younger, stronger and better…more secure. Content. Happy.
Still learning about myself, and about how to live life a bit better, but over all…I’m getting much more content with myself SOLO as you said.
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superkid10 says:
Katydid, Darwinsmom
Not trying to evesdrop but totally appreciate your perspective on dating. The whole concept of it just turns me off. I can’t even explain it to anybody. Everybody I meet, everybody I see, I’m doing a full 360 on them. Are they a spath? Do they lie? And even if they pass the sniff test I just can’t bring myself to put myself out there to potentially be abused again. I keep to myself.
Can I say something? I am now five weeks NC.
I watched my spath from behind the curtain today (yes, I know, it’s a bad idea)….but I am just BLOWN AWAY.
My spath is back with his ex-wife – when I say “back”, I really mean it! Calling her 20 times a day, planning an addition to her home, planning a vacation, etc. And, yes, he’s sneaking around behind her back, having sex with prostitutes and what not. And she just welcomes him back into her life. I can’t, can’t, can’t believe it.
She knows about all this stuff! She knows about me, about the lies, about the thefts, about the sex, about everything.
I can’t understand it, I can’t believe either one of them. Holy fuck they are so fucked up! Can anybody explain this to me?
Superkid10
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darwinsmom says:
Hey Superkid,
I think I’m starting to get an inkling, though I can’t put it in words yet…
Actually, I’m a weeping puddle right now. I bought the e-book of Women who love psychopaths. I’ve read it in one go so far past the temperamental traits of the women, and just started to read on the character traits… I can’t stop crying, recognizing myself so much in these findings of the 75 women. It’s like I’m looking in a mirror, realizing that at the time I met my P I loved myself truly for the woman I was… and how that me set me up to be the perfect long term partner of a sycko like he was. And as I recognize it, the mirror in front of me explodes into thousand pieces, and I’m snivelling as I try to pick up the pieces of myself.
Right now, I just feel utterly gutted, not by him, but by myself… how could I have become my own betrayor?
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KatyDid says:
Darwinsmom,
This is a quote by Dr George Simon, on a blog that he writes. Please note the second bullet point.
…dealing with a skilled manipulator is often like getting whiplash: you don’t know all that’s really happened until after the damage is done. That’s because the very nature of manipulation most often involves covert aggression — repeated efforts to exploit, abuse, overcome, control, or take advantage of others via subtle, underhanded, and hard to objectively detect ways. So, by the time you realize what’s really happening, you’ve already been placed at a disadvantage and most likely suffered considerably. But in addition to those unfortunate facts, often, when a person finally realizes the true nature of circumstances, they face a new set of emotionally traumatic realities:
• the trauma of realizing that just about everything they once thought they understood about human nature, about what makes various personalities tick, and why people do some of the things they do, has been turned completely upside-down;
• the trauma of feeling constantly invited to demean their own character because of the weakness and inadequacy they often ascribe to having allowed themselves to be duped; and
• the trauma of a new and pervading sense of self-mistrust, especially with regard to their ability to form new, healthier relationships.
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darwinsmom says:
It is right now so devestating to realize it is not just stupidity, love is blind and a sicko with the ability to be a chameleon… It is devestating to realize my chore identity is at the basis of it:
My gregarious extraversion, the adventurous streak, the moderate impulsiveness (impulsive yet cautious thinking things through), the going with the flow and not minding little bit of chaos and disorderliness, the original low harm avoidance (little could shake me)… all those things I loved and accepted about myself… all that set me up to fall for the trap.
The relationship investment, and my ambitious streak, my deep attachment, my ability to go a long way with little, my positiveness… they kept me in
and all the while, I started to take less risks, become more fearful of not knowing what was gonna happen next, and lost my independence.
How do you cope with knowing that what makes me (and you and us) wonderful becomes my source of betrayal?
Since I was 24 I went into ID-therapy, I found myself, built myself up, learned to love myself, found healthy pride in myself… it’s like the earth just fell away from underneath my feet… Help me, please
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superkid10 says:
Darwinsmom,
I will buy the book. If you’re getting something from it then so will I. I have read 100s of books, maybe not as many as Oxy, but still alot, and I haven’t regretted one. Maybe I can learn more about myself, more about this ex-wife of his who FACILITATES THE FRAUD! WTF WTF WTF!!!!!
Katydid
I think you’re on to something. Somebody said the other night on this post, they had a fancy name for it, but after a sociopath you don’t just recover, your whole WORLD VIEW comes into question, and it’s a life altering thing to realize that the world isn’t what you THOUGHT it was. I agree completely.
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KatyDid says:
Boy Darwinsmom,
You already know the TRUTH. You’ve been through ID therapy. Sounds like you need to brush up on what YOU KNOW.
Sometimes when I am hurting, I forget that I’e been down this road and what I did to get back to right thinking. Go back through your work in ID therapy. Part of the attraction for spaths is they LOVE to undermine great strong women. They think if they can destroy them, then THEY were stronger. But that’s a fallacy b/c strong women can recover and they are still weak characters that can’t claim REAL power b/c if people knew the truth about THEM nobody’d want them around so they have to hide themselves. ANd how does hiding who you are make you in any way admirable or worthy?
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darwinsmom says:
It is quite an eye opener to read your own portrait of your temperament, to read how that actually created that special bond with the spath unlike the ones before, and how your own high energy drive and strength of character (not just goodness) keeps you locked within the relationship to make it work.
It’s exactly because we are such strong women to begin with that we end up and hold out in the relationship. If we had been weak and fearful, we’d never have even felt attracted to them in the first place.
I’ll leave the rest of the reading for another day. I’m exhausted after that chapter on our temperament.
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darwinsmom says:
I don’t intend to hide myself. I can’t change myself. I need to be myself. But I do feel that I’ve lain with an asp… only the asp was myself
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
darwinsmom – i don’t think you are your own betrayer. i have all those qualities also, and yes i loved them about myself.
we were exploitable because of them, but all kinds of people are exploitable for all kinds of reasons.
we were exploited because we came into contact with people who would exploit us – there is nothing more efficient than using people’s best qualities against them, because we are all a bit narcissistic (as sky likes to say).
i think where we get in trouble is that we don’t know how to moderate some of our more extreme qualities, AND often we haven’t figured out the piece about the inner and outer circles of trust – who to give access to all of our beauty.
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darwinsmom says:
I just posted the following on my facebook… Nothing more devestating when you look in the mirror and you learn that your gorgious, extraverted, strong, loving and loyal self was the asp at your bosom in the hands of Mr Creep, along with the original song Hurt by Nine Inch Nails (Cash covered it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Yes, one/joy he used the best in me to turn it against me as a weapon.
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KatyDid says:
Darwinsmom,
I think the word is “co-op ted”. And like NoLARn2bcop, you gotta take back what he STOLE. It wasn’t HIS and it doesn’t fit HIM. Your self fits only you.
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adamsrib says:
I know I can’t take one more step towards you
Cause all that’s waiting is regret
And don’t you know I’m not your ghost anymore
You lost the love I loved the most
I learned to live half alive
And now you want me one more time
And who do you think you are
Running ’round leaving scars
Collecting your jar of hearts
And tearing love apart
You’re gonna catch a cold
From the ice inside your soul
So don’t come back for me
Who do you think you are
I hear you’re asking all around
If I am anywhere to be found
But I have grown too strong
To ever fall back in your arms
I learned to live half alive
And now you want me one more time
And who do you think you are
Running ’round leaving scars
Collecting your jar of hearts
And tearing love apart
You’re gonna catch a cold
From the ice inside your soul
So don’t come back for me
Who do you think you are
And it took so long just to feel alright
Remember how to put back the light in my eyes
I wish I had missed the first time that we kissed
Cause you broke all your promises
And now you’re back
You don’t get to get me back
And who do you think you are
Running ’round leaving scars
Collecting your jar of hearts
And tearing love apart
You’re gonna catch a cold
From the ice inside your soul
So don’t come back for me
Don’t come back at all
And who do you think you are
Running ’round leaving scars
Collecting your jar of hearts
And tearing love apart
You’re gonna catch a cold
From the ice inside your soul
Don’t come back for me
Don’t come back at all
Who do you think you are?
Who do you think you are?
Who do you think you are?
Cristina Perri Jar of Hearts.
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adamsrib says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ure=fvwrel
good night everyone…safe home…
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