“Women Who Love Psychopaths” in the new Lovefraud Store
Scientists and researchers have written many books and papers about the psychopathic personality. But little has been written about the people who get snared by these predators.
A book by Dr. Liane Leedom and Sandra L. Brown, M.A., fills the void. It’s called Women Who Love Psychopaths—Inside the Relationships of Inevitable Harm. The book is available in the new Lovefraud Store, which launched today.
Although we recognize that both men and women can be psychopaths, this book is about psychopathic men and their female partners. It discusses the personality traits of the psychopath, and how he snags his victims.
Groundbreaking research
The really groundbreaking work of the book is the original research that the authors conducted with the women who fell in love with the psychopaths. They conducted a survey, and more than 75 women participated. The survey included four different assessments. They were:
- Partner Rated Assessment of Pathological Men, which the authors developed based on the symptom lists for antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder.
- P-Scan, a tool that allows non-clinical people to rate the symptoms of psychopathy in another person. It was developed by Dr. Robert Hare.
- An opportunity for the women to tell the stories of their relationships.
- Temperament and Character Inventory, developed by Dr. Robert Cloninger, which the women answered about themselves.
Risk factors
Analyzing the survey results, the authors determined that the women were indeed involved with psychopaths. But the most interesting part of the research was about the women themselves. It showed that that the women who got involved in these relationships did have traits in common, and they’re not what you would think.
The women were:
- Extraverts. The women were outgoing and excitement-seeking. Psychopaths are also extraverts, and this is what made them appealing and exciting to the women.
- Invested in relationships. The women became deeply attached to their romantic partners, which is why they didn’t give up when the going got rough.
- Cooperative. These women value getting along with others and were willing to compromise their own interests for the larger picture. Needless to say, psychopaths took full advantage of their willingness to be cooperative.
These traits are, in fact, risk factors, which may lead a woman to be targeted.
Answers the questions
After describing the traits of the psychopaths and the women who love them, Brown and Leedom discuss the relationship dynamics—how the predators hold on to the women even when it was apparent that the relationship was unhealthy.
For women who have been in these relationships, Women Who Love Psychopaths answers the question, “How did this happen?” And by identifying the temperamental characteristics that make women susceptible to psychopaths, it may prevent you, or someone you know, from falling into the trap.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
onajourney says:
My husband and I read this book over the Christmas break. It was very interesting. Our daughter is currently married to a psychopath and we see her traits in common with the women in the study. Because of her cooperativeness, she will try everything to make the relationship work.
When I read the posts on this blog, all I keep thinking is, “I am so glad each one of you are OUT of the grip of the psychopath and inevitable harm!!!”
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 10:09am
Rune says:
In general, the traits of women who love psychopaths make them exceptionally interesting, but cooperative and helpful and loving members of society. If they weren’t mixed up with creeps, oh, excuse me, S/Ps, they’d be happy, productive, creative extraverts. Kinda like the LF community.
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 11:20am
muldoon says:
OMG..the nutter was up town earlier he didnt say a word, I never even saw him till someone said, got home message on daughters facebook saying want to see you but mum being a c**t and wouldnt let me….I thought this was over I have two choices let him see them or fight him…if i fight him how far is it going to go? why is he so calm? sorry I am freaked out gotta go cos I will start to ramble
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 12:05pm
Rune says:
Muldoon: How old are the children and where are you in the legal arrangements?
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 1:12pm
eyeswideshut says:
I really looik forward to reading the book and congratulations Drs.!
I have a wee hunch that a difficult or less than nurturing childhood is also a bit of a theme for these women? Just aksing.
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 2:43pm
Tood says:
Just can’t recommend this book highly enough.
This book gave me some very much needed validation at a time when it seemed that I had indeed lost everything, including the only thing I had ever wanted in life–a family. For those of us working hard to rid ourselves of the toxic aftermath of these “relationships of inevitable harm,” the voices of the uninitiated sometimes overpower us with all their negative messages. I know the voices of acquaintances, family members and authorities almost did me in. It seems it is so much easier to blame the victim than the perpetrator, so much more simplistic and pat.
“How could you not have known?” “What were you thinking?” “That’s what you get for thinking with your crotch and not your brain.” “How could you be so stupid?” On and on the remarks go, and we are pushed even farther down into shame and self-recrimination for allowing the relationship to occur in the first place.
If you have not yet reached a place where you can self-validate and be satisfied with your own solitary reality, this book could be a lifeline. The authors have some solid research behind their claims, and they phrase even those truths that might damage a fragile psyche with a measure of kindness and understanding.
You, the victim, are not a bad person. In fact, you’re quite a good person. That’s why you were targeted. It’s also why you are still here–you have the strength and the goodness to survive a one-on-one battle with evil.
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 4:21pm
OxDrover says:
This is something I had thought about very much, WHY ME? What is it about me that attracts them to me? Dysfuncitonal childhood? Being taught to be an enabler? WHAT? I think it is great and needed information.
MULDOON:
I hate to say “I told you so” but I did, darling! This is PLAYING BY THE “PSYCHOPATHIC PLAY BOOK” and is standard operating procedure for them. It is the “calm” before the storm because he is starting to get pissed at you for defying him, for taking back control of your life.
I suggest that you get your daughter’s face book account closed (for now) so he cannot leave her messages.
As for letting him see them, he is going to use them against you, and in the process will use them like a club to hit you with, and will be damaging to them, in an effort to hurt you and get you back into “control” (with him as the controller of course).
If you are not required to by law I would not let him see them at this time, OR the other option is to have him see them supervised and by someone other than YOU. You need to stay away from him…NO contact.
Have you contacted an attorney (solicitor?) yet? If not, do so immediately. Let him see them ONLY with either a counselor or a professional person present. So that he is prevented from saying hateful things to them about you. If you can’t find a counselor or someone like that, try a church and see if the MINISTER will help you with this problem. Be honest with him, but keep the story short!
It is almost ALWAYS the case that the P will use the joint kids as a club to hit you with, and of course, he damages the “clubs” as well. THEY DO NOT CARE about the kids, they are only using them to HURT YOU.
Dr. Amy Castillo tried to prevent her x from seeing the kids unsupervised EVEN AFTER he had threatened to kill them to hurt her, the judge let him have unsupervised visits, and the first time he killed the kids.
YOU MUST APPEAR CALM TO THE COURTS, THE COPS AND THE JUDGES. I repeat—MUST APPEAR CALM. So get your head straight and your “big girl panties on” and you can do your breaking down HERE ON LOVE FRAUD, but in public you must KEEP UP A GOOD CALM FRONT. YOU CAN DO IT!
Hang on Muldoon, we will be here for you!!! Chin up chickie!!! You can do it!@ ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for your strength and safety! Oxy
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 4:37pm
JaneSmith says:
I read Dr. Brown’s..”How to Spot a Dangerous Man..” a month ago.
It was riveting and eye opening for me. And I appreciate her candid, no nonsense way of writing in which we (the hurt lovers) are responsible for who we allow in our lives.
I highly recommend this particular book to any and all people who continually pick the wrongest of the wrong. It’s also beneficial for men; just replace “he” with “she” as I believe the pathologies are the same for both genders.
I for sure saw a few girl friends, past female acquaintances in the descriptions.
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 4:42pm
Healing Heart says:
Love the cover of the book! That just feels so right!
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 8:12pm
sstiles54 says:
Thank you Drs.! I am currently reading “The Betrayal Bond”, after just finishing “Without Conscience”. Both books have a lot of very good info in them. I was going to check out “Emotional Vampires” at the library, but all copirs were out, so I had to a copy put on reserve. This will be a great place to find books that will help me on my way to spath-proof myself.
Monday, 5 January 2009 @ 8:48pm
Rune says:
Hello SStiles: Glad to hear you’re leaping forward in your understanding.
In the interest of accuracy and clarity, Liane Leedom, M.D., is a psychiatrist, and properly called “Doctor.” She has a background in doing the sort of research that can stand up to “peer review.” She also has first-hand experience in a relationship with a psychopath, despite her academic and clinical background, and her considerable intelligence and sensitivity. These predators can target anyone, and a determined predator knows how to fake-out the screening process!
Sandra Brown has a master’s degree and a great deal of experience dealing with psychopathic/sociopathic people in dangerous relationships. She is not a “doctor” but she has unique expertise. She has been able to help people through her exceptional understanding of the nature of the predators and the impact on the victims. She is not, however, a “doctor.”
(I am not either Dr. Leedom or Ms. Brown, and I have no axe to grind here. Just wanting to clarify.)
Tuesday, 6 January 2009 @ 3:07am
Indigoblue says:
I think they can Target or Sit back and wait for the Prey to come to them ! I also think they do this as naturaly as you and me breath! Just like the LIEing it’s second nature !
I was trying to go back and see if I could remember the first occurance of the Rage of Anger ! I believe this to be a key to recognise that a person is Psyco. The range of Anger for the normal person 1 to 10 . It seems to me that the Psyco range of anger was always off the Scale!
There was little difference between a little upset or all out WAR! See if this rings true with others exp.
As far as the Childhood backgrounds of the victims . I think youll find as wide a range as you will sse stars at night ! My childhood was a fairytail , Huge Family Lots of Love !
I think that the biggest Hangup in Healing is shame and Blame ! I may never understand How Stupid I was ! I know I know BETTER! LOVE JJ
Tuesday, 6 January 2009 @ 6:38am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
OK, maybe the daughter’s facebook needs to be shut down, but keep the post he put there as evidence. “c**t ” is a big red flag to anyone with a clue about violence against women. I wouldn’t shut it down, but I might restrict the daughter’s access a bit. She’s a minor, he’s an adult, and the language is depraved. That’s reason enough.
I don’t know much about facebook. Who runs it? Are there forum rules of any kind? Limits on profanity, types of interaction between adults and minors?
Further, it’s time to talk to the daughter. It’s time she understood that she must avoid men who use these labels on women. It’s hard, because he’s her father. You could easily be accused of parental alienation. If your daughter’s old enough (12+), maybe she can tell dear old dad that she won’t passively accept words that degrade women.
It sounds ineffectual, telling a P on the rampage to watch his language. The point is that it’s about the young lady now, not about the knuckle dragger. Young ladies set appropriate boundaries and get help from their parents in enforcing those boundaries. Healthy, loving fathers help daughters understand what those boundaries should be and build up their daughter’s confidence and trust. Loser-Dad is fouling up big time.
Tuesday, 6 January 2009 @ 9:38am
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
Elizabeth is right! Keep proof of that post, and LIMITING her access to it, maybe you can sit down with her and go over any posts he leaves so that you can see them at the same time and talk to her about them. So that this can be a learning experience for her too. Elizabeth is on the right track.
As much as it is tempting to call him “names” as well, it is a good idea for you NOT to use “names” or “profane” things about him to your kids as well (that may come back to bite you in the butt–believe me on that).
YOu might keep the conversation with the older girl at least to the level of “Your dad is very angry at me right now, and because he is angry he is acting out badly, calling names, etc. but anger is NOT AN EXCUSE to behave badly.” If you have also behaved badly in response to the abuse, (I know I did) you also might use this as a time to say to her. ” I know sometimes I have also acted badly by calling daddy “insert name” (or whatever you did) but I am learning how to behave better and I know that is not right for me to do. I want us to live without violence, because I see that violence is hurtful to us all.”
If possible get your kids some counseling and you as well.
Hang on Muldoon!!! (((hugs))))
Tuesday, 6 January 2009 @ 10:42am
muldoon says:
You all give such good advice and it makes sense…I learning but I a fast learner and I have good teachers…This is going to be the year of the muldoon!
Tuesday, 6 January 2009 @ 5:26pm
Stargazer says:
Wow, I didn’t realize that women who get involved with psychopaths have these good qualities in common. I’m sure we have all wondered what is wrong with us throughout our ordeals. Perhaps it is why I like this site so much. I find the bloggers intelligent, funny, and engaging. I know it was my popularity that drew in the psychopath in the first place. Aren’t I the lucky one? There was another attractive, and much younger, single woman on the site who lived even closer to him. He even went to visit her and her snakes. But he didn’t hit on her. He wore his wedding ring the whole time and talked about his wife (she and I talked after the fact). I guess I was the “lucky” one who got targeted.
Tuesday, 6 January 2009 @ 10:06pm
wiserandhealing says:
So my personal awakening and introduction into the ‘Psychopathic’ world started in 2006 and lingered right through the following 2 years. I am happy and proud to say it has now been almost 6 months NC. “Hello my name is ___________ and I’m a sociopathoholic”.
Just for a breif backround, I am (I beleive) a healthy mid thirties woman who has been a Mental Health Professional for 12 years…. perhaps married too young and divorced four years ago with no kids…pets only. I have always held an ‘everything happens for reasons’ beleif system since my late teens and I do still hold this belief regardless of Satin exposure. BTW, I’m not necessarily considered religious but can only conclude ‘our’ experiences with these creatures as ‘of the devil’. Sorry if this offends anyone but it truly is the only word that remotely comes close to the experience.
Throughout my satanic journey I read…”The Sociopath Next Door”, “How to Spot a Dangerous man”, “Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them”, “The Betrayal Bond”, and “Without Conscience”.
Anywhere I could find answers any light shining anywhere… I was a moth. I did know what I was dealing with…but was by this point…an addict.
The real book however, was this site.
It’s all good, said and done when you can read a book and somehow put the peices of this satanic puzzle together and conclude and put some kind of label on this entity that overpowers us.
Labels/Diagnosis are mandatory or at least a necessity for our species to conceive, function and progress as humans in some orderly fashion…it’s also perceived by most as evolutionary and in alignment with our existance. We are constantly learning and growing on every possible level.
The labels our society has come up with so far for these negative evil forces we have all been exposed to are: Sociopath, Psychopath, and Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Essesntially, all are the same. And essentially, it doesn’t matter what the freakin name is for these folks. They are all beings almost like us but lacking the most essential part of the human experience…a conscience.
I must say that if I happened to have a say in the DSM creation, I would surely suggest a more accurate name change such as ‘Soul Rapist, or ‘Mind fucker” but that’s just ‘my humble’ personal opinion.
Guess that is my point in all this…regardless of their DSM label…they affect the best of us on such a catastrophic level…and I should stress..”the best of us”. How the HELL do they, can they do this to such outstanding, intelligent, loving beings?
I can not wait to read this new book which may possibly reveal something in myself that I do not see that encourages and invites this evil inside. If there is something that I am doing or missing I need to know NOW.
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 8:15am
OxDrover says:
Dear Wiserandhealing,
Welcome to our “club”–though I am sorry that you “qualify” for “membership”–it is odd that so many of us seem to be “mental health professionals”—or nurses, etc.
I agree that somehow we become Sociopathic-a-holics in our addiction to learning about them, by trying to and debating endlessly over the naming of them….etc. but the bottom line, I think is that we have to finally figure out what they “are” (they DO look so “human” don’t they?!?!) Figuring out what there is in common in US (victims and targets) that attracts them to “us.”
The “satanic” connection has been made by us all, I think, as there is something inherently EVIL in the way they think. The old “there is good in everyone” phrase is belied by their very souls, which though they can FAKE “goodness” is not truly there in any aspect of their being. They are the SOUL and personification of EVIL INTENT. EVen the malevolent look they get sometimes is what the movie makers use for the “black hat” just before he does some evil deed. That predatory look of rage and hate that words cannot truly describe, but we recognize when we see it, even the first time. (There must be some ancestoral memory in our genes for “that LOOK.”) Actually, I think in most prey animals (and humans were prey animals for the carnivors in the distant past and would be again if we lived in some parts of the world) have some sort of “instincts” about eye contact like that.
Again, though I am glad that you found LF, sorry you had a need to. Welcome!
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 8:39am
Indigoblue says:
wiserandhealing
Welcome , Human Parasites , Surviving off others till death do us part! Thank God! we got away!
Evolution.
What Purpose could this behavior/trait serve? In the wild or On The Street? Survival! LOVE JJ
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 9:20am
wiserandhealing says:
Ox D,
Thank you…and I am sorry you are a ‘qualifying member’ too. I am sad we ALL are here. It’s so surreal at first that we even are here. It feels like some sort of abduction far far away from earth regardless of geography, economic status, religion, education, gender..etc etc..it’s just NOT NORMAL anyway you look at it!!!
So…your name is ‘OXD and you’re a Sociopathoholic”. Well cheers to trying endlessly to trying to figure these hollow bodies out! That is exactly wht (for me anyway) why I think I became such an addict. I just could not beleive that some people on this earth just really do not have souls. MAN…I truly thought everyone could be saved or at least acknowledged for their stage…but until this…I now know…There are Reptile Camelions.
I still can’t help wondering what, why, how,…all these Q’s.. .and perhaps a bit more intensely because we are in the profession to help and guide folks out of these places! I’ve now experiences and read every book there is to read on this…except this new one above…
I don’t know about you but in my nursing training and all the workshops and conferences that come by every month…none have been about ‘ingTreat Raped Souls” or ‘Guiding the Mind Fucked back into the Light”. Have you?
Yes..’the LOOK’ …once thought of as adoration..now..and I say “NOW’ strongly… quickly recognized as power exertion.
I guess these personal experiences will obviously help us with clients who have had these experiences but such a shame that more education around this DSM diagnosis isn’t given more attention in ANY facet…regardless of training.!!
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 9:39am
wiserandhealing says:
Indigo…LOL…you don’t know how long I’ve tried to come up with a satisfying rationale for the ‘purpose’ of all this.
Really though, I do believe that somehow…as sick sick sick as it is…these folks FORCE us to take a look at ourselves. And they do this because the only way to even see the ‘EXIT THIS WAY” sign once we are shoved and packed securely in the sick, isolating hole we are shoved into is to look inside. Can’t go ANYWHERE until you start from inner most core. The ‘ONLY’ way to see that sign is inner strength so you are forced to either stay where you at, jailed, or look within and get the hell out.
I don’t know but perhaps this deep introspection would not have occured to thisdeep level if these demons did not force it. I don’t know anything but would like to think that as sick and evil as the whole experience is…that we gain 20 fold regardless…because ‘GOOD’ always’ prevails over evil…
And honestly for me…I am through the worst of the storm (THANK YOU GOD!) and don’t even carry an umbrella now …I am deeper and richer and MUCH MUCH more equipped. I don’t know…but somehow these entities have to serve some purpose!!! That’s my take.
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 9:57am
Indigoblue says:
That is not Human wisdom!
all things , ALLTHINGS for a greater purpose! Fortrue ! What is a Jewel ? Before it is Finely Pollished ? a rock :)~ LOVE JJ
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 10:03am
wiserandhealing says:
Sorry Indigo…not too ‘wise’ here…gonna have to elaborate…
think I’m kinda sayin what you are…that all serves a purpose regardless of depths of evil…purpose being the journey within and finally to TRUE FREEDOM!!! The Polished ROCK!!
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 10:14am
eyeswideshut says:
Couldn’t agree more. All the books can’t replace Lovefraud, although having some rigorous studies to back up our experiences is invaluable.
In the film “What the Bleep do We know” there is a very good segment on how our chemical reaction to emotions triggers addictions to those emotions. I would venture that the Socio is addicted to hurting and exploiting others.
Did a whole pile of adreniline kick in when doing early bad stuff? I know mine was an adreniline junkie. No skidiving for him tho’. Just fraud and manipulation, stocks, documents, people, whatever.
Mine, in his late sixties and not excellent health, would rather risk being wanted in two countries, not being able to see freinds or family, jail and disgrace, just for the thrill of ending up with all the marbles.
On another note, I wonder about
TV habits, anyone? Mine used to turn into a zombie every night flipping from the hardcore talking head scream fests to shows that invariably ended up victimizing, objectifying or somehow terrorizing women (standard fare for the tube I am afraid).
Last night for the first time a chill went through me thinking he probably got off on all that vicariously. I am going to take a shower now.
However, KNOWING all this is so empowering. It still took me a year to figure out how he was gaslighting me, even knowing about gaslighting, it took time to really see it.
Having removed HIM from my life, every day is better. I recently quit a steady drinking habit, having realized that his abuse was gone, but I was doing the job for him. NEW DAY!!
The film “The Corporation” diagnoses them as Socio’s. Sadly it seems our world also has some states that would be diagnosed similarly.
For those of you into social justice movements I recommend “The Fourth World War” available free online. Uplifting, despite the gloomy title.
Peace to all,
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 11:17am
Indigoblue says:
You have it PerfectLy!
I Am in Total agreement !
There are a million of these little cleshais (sp) some of them verses from the Bible.
What does not destroy us makes us stronger!
Don’t Judge a book by it’s cover! Simple truths that hold much Wisdom!
We Help others Heal Here ! where while at the same time we are Healing our selves! Thank You! LOVE JJ
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 11:18am
Kathleen Hawk says:
wiserandhealing, welcome to the group. As you’ve heard this is an amazing site for working through the healing process.
I’m with you in believing that everything has a purpose. Even more than that, I believe that I always get what I ask for. Sometimes it takes the universe a year or two to arrange it, but it always arrives. And though I didn’t understand it for a long time (the five years of relationship hell and the first year or two of recovery), he was the answer to a long-held desire to develop a life that I controlled, rather than gave away constantly through overcommitting and trying to be everyone’s favorite person.
This guy did the trick, and the amount of time and agony I had to go through to learn what I had to learn speaks, I think, to how much internal dysfunction and embedded belief in myself as a victim I had to get rid of .
In Buddhism, they say we fall in love with our teachers. The Jungians say we are attracted to our animas, our dark sides that we don’t acknowledge. My wise sister, who often says things it takes me years to figure out, once said disgustedly, “You’re both acting like addicts.” I sputtered indignantly, “What do you mean? He’s the problem, not me.”
So I love your sociopathoholic word. Not least because in retrospect I realize that he wasn’t the first one. He wasn’t even the only one I was dealing with at the time. And though I resist naming people anything, I find the idea of sociopathic transactions useful, and I was neck-deep in them all the time. (And very damned seldom on the controlling side of the equation.)
I’m really glad you found us. If you’re wondering, it’s going to get better, really better.
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 2:52pm
wiserandhealing says:
Thanks Kathleen, I’ve actually been off and on here for the past two years and this site has literally been the ‘MAIN’ contributor to my healing process. There is nothing else that compares to this venue and I have referred several freinds and clients here. Therapists are a gamble and books only go so far…here…it’s like a tribe really.
I’m really not up to date with all the bloggers and stories but do know that regardless of when I decide I need to come back…the stories are uncannily pretty much the same. Sick really. No, Actually.
It really took me a LONG long time to get realigned with my beleif system that everything happens for reasons etc.I mean…how do you seriously rationalize such evil/absurd disjointed, alien experiences??? But regardless of all belief systems out there…there is NO doubt in my mind that we HAVE ALL learned and grown no matter what stage we are at in the healing process. A sick hard, brutal lesson yes, but one we needed and need to go through for whatever reasons.
For me, now that I am finally ‘OUT’ (yes, can finally confidently say this now after two years of sitting on a BBQ in hell) I believe I am and always will be the ‘TRUE’ me and will not waiver.
Prior to this, I thought I was the ‘true me’ but man…I waivered so much I should have been named Gumby. I know I am adaptable but NOT a bloody acrobat.
Yes…that is the most fascinating thing about religion/spirtuality/myths….they all talk about these experiences. Every single one of them..(yes I have studies them). They also all speak of how these are opportunities to grow and evolve…’enlighten’.
Man…is it ever impossible to think like that when you are right in the midst of it all though. ‘Enlightened would have been the VERY last word I would have used in the midst of the darkness. The power of love and emotion is unmeasurable and undescribable and so isolating because of it. The isolation alone makes you feel a thousand times weaker because you are left to question and debate just with yourself because you already know society’s perception of the situation.
EyesWide..isn’t it just so crazy what you can see looking back once the emotion has dissapated or even just dulled? You can see how you were being gaslighted now but how the heck could you see something like that in the midst with their skill and your genuine compassion and love? That’s what they bank on and get paid everytime because they know this is how people with souls operate.
Good thing is NOW we know what to see!
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 3:48pm
Healing Heart says:
Hello Wiseandhealing - PHEW, your words really make me feel relieved. I hear over and over again, that this experience is a healing one in the long run - and I like the way you use “enlightened.” But yes, you said, you would never believe that when you are in the worst of it. For me that would be the spring and summer (through him out in March). However, I am definitely still in it (on the BBQ), and am very grateful to be assured that there real light….enlightenment, at the end of this experience. Its really heartwarming and encouraging to think that one day I might look back on all of this as positive. That I might actually be thankful (nah - can’t believe that).
When did you go NC? I apologize if you already said that in a previous blog. I haven’t seen mine in 5 months (though through him out 10 months ago), and have had NC for four. It’s absolutely gotten better - eons better than the summer. But it still hurts - I’m more angry now than hurt - but I’m still hurt, and feel waves of hurt when I imagine him cheating when I thought we were madly in love. Ugh
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 6:59pm
Gemini_Fairy says:
Hi LF community! I bought this book. read it straight through, and have dogged eared, highlighted and post-it noted the hell out of it. I recommend this to EVERYONE that has had contact with a S.
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 7:52pm
wiserandhealing says:
Hi Healing Heart,
4 months NC is AWESOME! The intensity of these types of relationships makes the first week NC feel like 10 agonizing years just as intense but on the pain side… so to go four months is outstanding. Keep it up my friend…so worth it…light is ahead!!!
For me…I had several NC trials but never longer than 3-4 months apart in the 2.5 years. Our introductory 3 month illusion was so intense and so undescribable, deep and powerful that I was just convinced this was written somewhere and that I would do whatever it took to make things work…’for better or worse’. (problem 1-beleif system- needs re-examining sometimes)
So…as his behavior became more and more risky on many levels…I was forced to end it with him out of fear. Each time this was the case. But it always felt like what I imagine a crack addiction would feel like. You want it sooooo bad but know how bad it is for you. He was just so outlandishly crazy that I HAD to get away or who knows. But I always fell into that pity of his and/or also took the constant blame for his behavior…took it because the risk was too great not to most times. But I would eventually be forced to get the hell away because primal survival instincts still functioned thank GOD.
Never experienced this type of pure fear/pure love simultaneously which is ultimately what I think makes it so darn difficult for all of us. How absurd to experience both these feelings so intensely at the exact same time. How tormenting and confusing and helpless. And you can’t talk to anyone because you know you will end up looking even crazier than them by still loving them so will end up expending even more energy just trying to ensure your family/freinds that you are fine….even though you are only a centimeter tall. So damn isolating.
Everytime I would get used to the ‘detox’ or ‘detatchment’ from him and greived the ‘loss’ of my dream I became in a lull or progressively ‘humdrum state and then I would hear from him(or should say…decide to hear from him—(problem3-we really do choose this misery once we become aware of the hollow creature) and I would hear all the wonderful changes he has made etc etc and hence…the pattern began.
Prince was even more charming and intense each return as he already knew the hand he was dealing with. His behavior was just so inconsistent with his ‘entrapment’ words. But it was the words combined with the BRIEF ‘GOOD’ behavior that kept me so hooked and believing. He was so damn good at being ‘great and perfect’ ….for …on average about 48 hours. Really what it took was noticing the very distinct drama pattern and ‘really’ looking at this pattern and his motives behind the patterns and my motives behind continuing enagement knowing what his motives were.
Honestly I do feel I had ‘an addiction’ to the ‘idea’ of him and would knowingly accept him back for brief periods just to pretend it was real because I just wanted it to be real that bad and wanted that feeling. It was deep, spiritual and I was always able to rationalize things but really, I wasn’t being honest with myeslf. (Problem 2-have to be honest with yourself or you get a double rip off) And I risked…career, home, relationships, safety, sanity…all of me….all for that brief fix cause every fix always ended in some crazy drama with me being accused of something so ludicrous or trivial. He just LOVED that drama…and each time he created this and I forced him to leave he was literally with another woman within 2 hours. And of course…each episode…”was my fault’ somehow. Eventually as the pattern developed it really did ware me out and just didn’t end up being worth it somehow anymore. So many things I would have to do to keep up this ‘fairytale world’ of mine…like empty may garbage bags, clear my phone messages and numbers, e-mail…etc etc. So many things…he was just sick ,manipulative, evil and powerful with his seduction. I KNOW beleive me I KNOW how ridiculous this was but remember…I was an ‘addict’ and basically that should sum up my subsequent behavior.
Just realizing how long this is…sorry everyone….basically how I look at things now is that I had to go through a process of getting seriously real with myself and remembering and rediscovering me and looking at this addiction in the face and saying to this entity…eye-to-eye…”I can get this high on my own buddy….see ya, wouldn’t wanna beya’!
and as slow and agonizing as it was it did actually happen fully and completely…..Finally. I can say that now because I have no thoughts of him any longer or at least none with any feeling associated with it. I was no longer ‘vacant’ inside and became a full member of society again and finally felt belonged. I started to hear music (my passion…that was the hardest loss in all this I think) again and the music actually became more and more of a clear pathway out of the ditch. I saw colour and experienced laughter, felt ‘present’. Suddenly I realizeed…’holy crap…I think I’m back!!!!
And I am.
And so will all of you who don’t think you will get there. I know that place. I honestly just felt so stuck…like in quicksand with my arm tied to a tree…often wishing it were my neck instead. Just thought…well I don’t know the way out and this is my fate I guess.
Seriously, I know my words are so miniscual right now for those of you in that spot but I can assure you with 100% certainty that if you really want out of this tormenting state….you gotta look in the mirror and go deep and accept and decide. Decide. Not decisions for next year or ten but just decide how you want your next hour to go. Cause it’s totally your call. Go do whatever the hell you want…like your 1 hour of daylight then go back to solidary confinement if you want. BUT GET OUIT FOR THAT HOUR MAN! You’re worth an hour.
You’ll find I think that once you start giving yourself these small alotments of time just ‘for you’ you’ll start liking it…things will grow and seeds will be planted whether conscious or not. Just start small.
ANYWAY…I am scared to look how long this may be….
oh…ha…Healing Heart…to answer you’re question..LOL…I had 2 brief encounters with him in 2008 the last in late July.
Those hours I gave myself have become everyday now. It is the ‘norm’ and I will NEVER settle for less than this and have never known my soul better.
There seriously is light…just go through the dark at whatever pace you can…just make sure you keep moving regardless if it feels 3 feet ahead 20 feet back…all fine…you’re moving. And be GOOD to you.
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 8:47pm
Healing Heart says:
Jeez…Wise…you describe that so well - the addiction. I knew I would never go back to my guy when I threw him out in early March. The thing she did were monstrous. The cheating was crazy - I can’t believe he was able to do SO much. And the drama - this guy LOVED a fight and would get so enraged when I wouldn’t play along. I refused to raise my voice, scream, yell, and it made him crazy. He wanted drama to escalate to punching walls, kicking down doors…and probably, hitting me. He said he would “retaliate” when his ex G’s hit him. Oh God. Anyway - I knew he had to go, and that I would never go back to him, but I would breakdown, and get a “hit” of him once every three weeks until August. I really felt like a junkie. I knew he was bad for me, and knew I was going to go socio-sober, but I was just jones-ing so bad sometimes I gave myself permission to spend a day or two with him.
Your guy sounds so much like mine. YOU sound so much like me in the relationship. All our stories are so freakin’ alike it amazes me its not all the same guy. My first three months illusion with him were the happiest of my life. It was like I was high on morphine (guess i was) for three months straight and nothing could touch my happiness. I had found heaven. And then after three months he insisted on moving in with me, MOVED HIS KIDS IN WITH ME (part-time) and then promptly got a mistress (maybe an ex), was having sex with his ex wife, AND having multiple anonymous sex with people he met on line. Unprotected.
He is truly a monster. He lied every day about really important things. Critical things. Things I needed to know for my own safety. My God. I’m so glad I’m out.
I still feel some lingering addiction, but I can honestly say that I haven’t had a desire, at all, to call out to him in the last month. He became such a crazy stalker in the end that my yearning dropped drastically (but not totally), and now its gone. But I am really, really, angry. And would like to somehow make him pay for the horrible abuse and betrayals. I hope that will pass too.
What we have been through! My God! HUGS to you, W, and all my tribe members at LF
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 9:02pm
wiserandhealing says:
Oh HH…yes…really does sound like the same guy…same experience. You are so far ahead though it’s awesome…truly. Once you’ve genuinly ‘lost’ the deisre…well that’s almost at finishing line.
The payback part is frustrating cause it is just so damn infuriating to go through such agonizing torment and know he has no inkling of this type of experience. Just remember though that no he doesn’t feel pain and torment like we do but he also doesn’t feel joy and happiness like we do. NOW THAT”S TORMENT!!!
They NEVER feel it like we do…will never get to either sadly.
So, if that’s not payback enough…the only other true payback that may cause a nanosecond of his thoughts…is to just be as happy as you can and the best person you can. They’ll never have a ‘genuine’ experience…’we’ can!
Hugs
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 9:29pm
henry says:
I read somewhere ” It is emotionally impossible to simultaneously feel pity yet suspect deciet, the mind can only do one or the other” when I read that it hit me like a ton of bricks - (they) must know this - the above post were so right on thanks to all of you at LF. Been 10 months NC and I can see I have my sanity back and I am angry at time’s, at him then at me for participating in such a sick game. I am so much better yet still have moment’s of sadness. But I would not go back to that kind of hell. He is history and I am sure has totally forgotten me, but this is a fantasy of mine - “He shows up, begging me back - pleading his love - I will say ” If you can convince my son’s that you want to be with me and part of this family - I will consider it”" need I say more?
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 9:31pm
Healing Heart says:
Huh….that’s interesting - can’t simultaneously feel pity yet suspect deceit. That makes sense…and exacty why the pity play is so effective.
Why don’t we “normals” use that? Hmmm..thinking about it, I couldn’t pull it off. If I had deceived someone, I would feel so guilty and horrible (and it would be all over my face) that I couldn’t imagine actually trying to elicit pity from the person I had wronged. I’m not capable. I’m no angel - I’m not trying to say I’m miss purity-has-a-halo over here….but I just can’t put myself in his shoes and act that way. It’s like I hit a wall, I just can’t go forward - like its cognitively impossible.
I do look forward to the anger passing because I don’t want to be so focused on him. And it IS isolating! Thank god for you guys. No one in my life wanted to hear about him a couple of months after our split…yet I thought about him all the time and wanted to talk about him all the time. And I had to lie about the times I was with him because my friends and family would have thought I was crazy, and probably shamed me about. I’d certainly feel shame. So it was a secret. I think he actually did that deliberately with his ex-girlfriends - have affairs with them knowing that they no longer had friends and family urging them to get out - the friends and family had no idea! So he had them isolated even more than he did when they were in a relationship. That’s how I felt. I couldn’t even complain about him to my sisters because they would have said “What the hell were you doing with him to begin with!!???” There would be no sympathy, and probably a lot of judgment. That situation worked in his favor.
When I slipped - it was just he and I - made it even more secret and special.
BLECH YUCK BLECH! I AM SO GLAD ITS BEEN A LONG TIME
And so blessed, thank you god, that I didn’t get an STD. It was such relief to get a clean bill of health in October. And a little shocking. God has been taking care of me.
Henry - did your sons want to knock the guys lights out? Did they ever try? I’m sorry, its not very spiritually evolved of me, but somehow the thought of that is making me smile like the chesire cat……
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 10:19pm
shabbychic2 says:
I am looking forward to reading the book. I hope it will help me. I broke up with my P a year ago this month, and then this new guy showed up in April. I’m not sure he is a P, but I have loaned him money… so I can’t blame him for everything, I have a huge part in this also, a flaw, and I need to figure out what’s wrong before I give away all my money!
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 10:26pm
henry says:
My X was with me 3 year’s. For the most part i kept my relationship to myself. But the fighting and kicking him out and taking him back was obvious to my son that just lives four miles from me. I would go visit my son and tell him “Well he’s gone, it’s over.” and my son would say “good” Then I would go visit and say Well he’s back - we are really gonna make it work this time. My son looked at me and said Dad you are as fucked up as a ________! It got too the point when the X would come back I would hide the fact because I was so embarrassed, then I realized I was hiding him like the criminal he is. My mental and physical decline became so obvious that my son told me if he ever found that sob here again he would kick his ass….My son’s didn’t know what was going on or how to help. But they are the men of my life and without them there is no telling what the criminal would of done in my state of fuckedupness. I am not angry and bitter on a daily basis - it’s just moment’s here and there that sometime are overwhelming. When I get ot obsessing about him I just come here and read. For the most part I have healed very well - but not where I need to be yet. This has brought about a whole new aspect on life and living.
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 10:40pm
Matt says:
Two books I read while I was on vacation both of which deal with sociopaths. “T is for Trespass” by Sue Grafton. I read the introduction and before I was even finished I thought “damn, the woman’s got it down cold — right down to the sociopath’s eyes.” The other is Ann Rule’s “Mortal Danger” which is a collection of stories all dealing with people who got involved with sociopaths, some who survived, some who didn’t. It’s an eyeopener and a must read for anybody who still thinks that their S “can change.”
Wednesday, 7 January 2009 @ 11:07pm
henry says:
I keep thinking he will drive up or I will get a letter from him saying he is sorry or thanking me for all the thing’s I did for him. I am the one that changed number’s, forced him off my property when he did show up almost a year ago. I keep saying I am healed or healing. He has a whole new life and I seem to be stuck in the past wondering what I could of done differently, there is no way I would take him back, but I guess i still want to believe there is a tiny bit of compassion in him. He doesn’t care, never did, that is so difficult for me to wrap my head around. I know - I know I know…
Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 1:07pm
Wini says:
Henry: That’s common that all of us what them to have compassion for others. But, think of it this way, how can you have compassion or love or any of the other of God’s virtues in life when you are so obsessed and focus on GREED and the other Devil’s vices of life. Everyone has a choice (free will) to make when they come upon a fork in the road of life. Do you take the righteous path or do you take the unrighteous path?
In the future, most likely not not in this life time, but in the future of our spiritual existence, our EXs will have to go through their healing process! Would you want to be in their shoes when they have to do this work to heal themselves? Talk about being in denial!
Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 1:29pm
eyeswideshut says:
Dear Wiser,
No apologies for the long post, bang on!. I totally relate to being addicted to the “idea” of him. I must say, as much as I blab about being with mine for so long (27 yrs), I have just realized how IMPOSSIBLE it would have been to let go in the earlier stages, when the good bits were still fresh.
At LFI have found it surprising that so many posters were still struggling to heal long after the end of a fairly short relationship. Your post made me realize that that is when all the great sex and romance and perfection are served up, in the early part of the trap.
I realized that there was a lot missing within the first 4 years of my marriage, and the abuse was deep undercover, surreptitious mind effing, but I hung on to the “idea” and the dreams we had made “together”, and the “family”. But ultimately I had lots and lots of time to fall out of love SLOWLY.
What I am saying is congrats to all you healers. If my bubble had burst early on I have no idea that I could have been as brave as you all.
Peace
Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 11:08pm
Wini says:
eyeswideshut: Imagine how many millions of people are still stuck in those illusionary relationships … beating themselves up daily while trying to be perfect for a spouse that just doesn’t/can’t care!
At least we know the truth now and can salvage our lives. I keep shaking my head knowing about all those that haven’t a clue.
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 1:40am
Rune says:
Wini: you summed it up. Have you ever seen this look? http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005124282
It’s not just that news story. It’s the look.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 2:02am
Wini says:
Rune: Yes I’ve seen that look for 24 years … most of my co-workers have that look, as did my bosses and their cronies. I wished I had the luxury to have paid attention to my EX to see if he had this look… but, I was too stressed out with my work situation I never paid attention to my EX, just believing he was a great guy that was standing by my side during my ordeal with my bosses. It wasn’t until November 2006 that I found out some of the truth … he left for what was another business trip on May 1st of that same year. Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I have looked through all his photos that he left behind and he looks normal … so kind and normal.
Go figure?
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 3:53am
Wini says:
Rune: Come to think of it. I have a photo of my EX taken with his roommate (aka really his other fiancee’) and he looks so arrogant in this photo. All his family photos or photos he took while with me look normal … so he could be doing the chameleon thing … looking normal when he’s with normal people, looking arrogant and cocky when he knows he’s doing wrong with the wrong people (this woman looks very arrogant too) … I’d love to see photos of him if he ever lives on his own for a long amount of time … I bet it would be just as blank with no life behind the eyes as the site you gave us to look at!
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 3:58am
Rune says:
Wini: I think they are chameleons. As the S/P’s daughter said to the social worker, “Sometimes my dad looks at me like a wolf.”
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 11:22am
Matt says:
I went back and reread parts of this thread I hadn’t had the chance to before this. Some really good stuff.
Wiserandhealing — “addiction” to the “idea”; “do whatever it took to make things work”; “forced to get away because primal survival instincts still survived.”
Healingheart: “Guy loved a fight”
Eyeswideshut: “all the great sex and romance and perfection are saved up for the early part of the trap.”
I could so relate to all of this.
I let myself get addicted to the great sex and romance right up front. I have heard enough drug dealers discuss their method of doing business — give free samples, etc all in the name of getting a new victim hooked. Sociopaths have the same MO — get us addicted to the idea of them. Then once they’ve got us hooked, just like the drug dealers, it’s strictly business.
I let myself get addicted to S — a pathetic ex-con who is an addict. I would do anything to make it work. I feel such contempt for myself that I got hooked on him, and once I was hooked I let him put me through the grinder.
Yeah, he loved a fight. And I never played along. Until that last night when my survival instinct had kicked in and I knew I had to do whatever I had to do to get him out of my life or I would die. I finally fought back. I remember the surprised look on his face when he said “Do you realize this is the first time we’ve ever fought?” And my response was “It’s long overdue.”
Gay or staight, male or female, they all really do play from the same playbook, don’t they?
In my original posting I said “To get rid of a sociopath, become a sociopath.” Apparently my views have been confirmed by a sociopath, “pleasedsociopath”, who is busy blogging away on another thread on Lovefraud. He says, in essence, that if you want to get to a sociopath, devalue and discard him. Personally, I think we should all take HIS advice — ignore him and let him find another playground.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 4:33pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Donna, thanks. I ordered the book yesterday and got it today. I’ve only had time to flip through it, but it looks like lots of great material.
Matt, I agree. BTW, I doubt that PS is a sociopath. He’s acting more like a narcissist, looking for attention.
The business of becoming a sociopath, when it’s not your ordinary way, is interesting. I came to that conclusion myself a few years ago, but initially I went through a lot of internal argument about it. Actually, it was during my angry phase, and I became furious that I had to act like him to get rid of him.
Later, I figured out that — duh! — I am allowed to protect myself and choose what I allow in my life. And to do that, you sometimes have to turn off the “nice” personna to get rid of a pest.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 4:59pm
FirstThingsFirst says:
I’m caught in my own mind and need some perspective. I keep thinking that I can outsmart the s/p in my life, but I’m not sure what I would get out of outsmarting him.
He is absolutely deceptive, and he knows that I know that he is deceptive. He doesn’t like my hard-won knowledge.
He says he wants to remain a “mystery”. I think he mainatins a certain feeling of control by being the only person who knows what he is up to, deception, lies, and all.
I’m out of work. I think that the emptiness of my employment status allows him to pass across my brain like a dark shadow far more often than if I were working.
I have to admit that I think that part of me is attracted to the excitement of engaging with him. I wonder if I can use him, if I catch him off guard, and keep him off kilter. For me, the game now also involves obtaining evidence of his deceptions and dishonesty.
I know that in the long run, and possibly in the short run too, there is nothing in this for me. I was a cooperative person willing to compromise my own interest for the larger picture.
Now, I know that I should belong in that larger picture too. Part of the difficulty for me is seeing myself in the larger picture and envisioning a good life for myself as one that is really, truly possible
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 5:00pm
OxDrover says:
Dear First,
The “game” you are feeling the desire to play is a LOSE-LOSE one for YOU…oursmarting them, proving it, etc. unless you need it for evidence in court to get money back or custody of your children is a WASTE OF YOUR ENERGY. Use your energy to focus on healing yourself, let the creep crawl back under the rock he crawled out from under. He is not worth the “goo between your toes” on a day at the beach…
YOU, however, are worth ALL your efforts. Focus those efforts and energy on you. Come here, read and learn, become stronger and come to the place that is the opposite of love, and it isn’t “hate” it is INDIFFERENCE to him. He has already lost in the long run, he will never feel love, caring, compassion or a real connection—he is a hollow shell of a human. He isn’t worth your time!!!
Fill your “empty” time with something productive—take a class, exercise, anything but HIM. (((hugs))))
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 5:38pm
Matt says:
FirstThingsFirst:
“I know that in the long run, and possibly in the short run too, there is nothing in this for me.”
I think you’ve answered your own question. The obsessive thinking, the need for revenge — we’ve all been/are there. Add into that mix being out of work and worrying about money and thinking how much the S clipped you for, and your feelings are natural.
Some of us have to deal with ex-S because of children. Some of us are engaged in disputes over money and property. So, those of us who fall into those categories have to have LIMITED contact with our ex-Ss.
That said, who the hell would willingly want one of these creatures in our lives? My advice? Go NC. Also, try to find yourself a healthy distraction. Last time I was out of work, I started volunteering. I still do. Helping those who are in worse shape than you really does help get you out of your head.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 5:42pm
Healing Heart says:
Matt - you said we should ignore PleasedSociopath. I agree. This is our site - we’ve all been bull-shitted enough by sociopaths…we don’t need another coming in to our lives. I agree - we should all ignore him.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:41pm
Matt says:
Healing Heart:
I’m looking at some of his comments and he is obviously getting off playing the folks on this site. To me, the weird thing about his postings is he seems to have a tremendous amount of self-awareness of a S. Most likely an N. In any case, nothing to be gained from engaging him.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:49pm
Healing Heart says:
I agree. A true sociopath would never label him self - he’s just come in a screw with us. He would engage us with kindness and compassion, and then later turn on us. This guy is an N and is dying for attention. He wants to engage us. It’s really pretty nasty. And no, there is nothing to be gained by engaging. People think a sociopath will answer questions honestly? Please. We all know that they can’t be trusted to tell the truth, EVER. I’m sure sociopaths show up from time to time on this site - but someone coming in and saying they are a sociopath is someone seeking to engage us in a way that is not for our benefit. If he’s here, he’s here only for his own gain and has no problem doing so at our detriment. Let’s practice what we preach at each other and NO CONTACT
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:52pm
Wini says:
Healing Heart and Matt: If the guy wanted to give up some truth … what the heck. If not, nothing lost since we all know this fact already. Besides, it’s not our lives that aren’t fulfilling, it’s their lives that are empty and devoid of any truyh. If they don’t care to get to the bottom of why they are the way they are, who really looses here? We only loose when they come in our lives, they loose 24/7 day in and day out for their entire lives.
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:55pm
Healing Heart says:
Give up truth? Are you serious? A sociopath give up the truth?
SERIOUSLY??????????
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:56pm
Healing Heart says:
“All Entanglements with Sociopaths have Consequences”
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:57pm
Lamp Unto My Feet says:
I am not buying what he is selling.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:58pm
Wini says:
Healing Heart: I just want to know at what point in his life did he start looking down his nose at his mom … then others. At what point in his life did he start playing puppeteer? Does everyone bore him? If so, does that include that he bores himself?
Just the basic questions.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:00pm
Wini says:
Lamp Unto My Feet: He didn’t say anything? What do you mean buy anything he’s selling.
Hey, what if, what if this site propels him to want to know why he’s the way he is?
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:02pm
Healing Heart says:
Wini - I love you, and I love every one else on this site. I don’t know what better word to use than love. I feel a heart connection to all of you. We have learned, and you have been such a wonderful teacher, that S’s are completely untrustworthy. He will not tell us the truth.
The healthy part of me that has vowed to never engage with one of these masters of deceit and torment tells me not to engage.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:04pm
Jen2008 says:
Well, I do not want to knowingly engage with one ever again in real life. On a message board, blah, he doesn’t bother me because it is just a message board and I can choose to read or not read what he writes……..what else can you do….for those who don’t want to talk to him, don’t talk…for those that are curious to ask him questions, ask away…..that is the way I see it anyhow, unless Donna makes a decision to ban sociopaths who make themselves known from the site.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:11pm
Lamp Unto My Feet says:
Wini: I have been coming to LF for over a year and have read every post at least once. Some more than that.What I have learned from the posters in that time, is far more than I ever learned in a lifetime, about Ns/Ps and Ss. Over a year to deprogram and clear the glue from my brain. The last thing I need or want is is to have one here.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:32pm
Wini says:
Sorry Lamp: There are many who blog with us. You just don’t recognize them.
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:34pm
shabbychic2 says:
But I do have a clue… and I am sitting here beating myself up daily because he’s not calling me. I read and posted on this blog for months and was feeling so much better about myself… and was thinking good thoughts… how did I attract this to myself again? I’m not even talking about a spouse here, just a guy I’ve been seeing for 8 months… and I’m hurt and lonely and I don’t have anybody to talk to.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:36pm
Wini says:
shabbychic2: NOW is the time to heal yourself and forget about romantic relationships for a while.
I know it’s easier said than done, but why would you want to continue going out there exposing your vulnerabilities when you know you haven’t fully healed and found yourself yet? I hope you’re not convinced that someone else is going to heal you just by being in your life?
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:44pm
Wini says:
Healing Heart: If he doesn’t want to open up and speak truth, then he’s his own worst enemy. There is no quick fix to healing your life, not for us and certainly not for them.
Personally, I can’t imagine going through life so superficially. That’s just me. I experience every emotion, good or bad… and guess what? I’m still standing.
I get knocked down, then I get up again (who sang that song)?
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:48pm
shabbychic2 says:
wini: Thank you for your support. I guess I can’t believe he was just here for the money. It hurts so much. You are right, I’m not convinced that someone else is going to heal me, I know in my heart that only I can make myself happy, but I haven’t figured out how yet… and my mind hasn’t caught up with the idea yet. I don’t like being alone — I guess I have a big bullseye on my forehead! LOL
There was an article on this site about a year ago about ruminating and that is what I am doing now, I can’t stop thinking about it and poor me. I am having a big pity party over here for myself!!! I talked to my sister, and she only knows 5% of what’s been going on and she was just yelling at me about “why would you want to be with such a jerk” and she is right but I just seem to be stuck right now. I bonded too soon with someone I didn’t even know. ugh.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 8:07pm
Wini says:
Shabbychic2: It’s OK to waffle and it’s OK to be afraid of being by yourself. It’s new to you. But, trust us. Focus on yourself. Get to know yourself again. Not who you were when you were a child or a teenager or any age after that. Today is a new day. Today is the day that you start investigating what you like in life … what you don’t like, what you thought you’d never think to do. Experiment with the new you. We’re similar to taste buds. Some times you eat something and you love it, you can’t have enough of it … other times, you can’t stand the smell of the stuff, never mind put it in your mouth … and then MG … can’t even imagine how you could possibly swallow the stuff.
If you are afraid to be alone, breaking that fear is your priority. How to do this? Go to a movie on your own … just to experience it. Go to a restaurant alone, just to experience it. Go to the library, shopping, church, a concert. Do something that you want to do but never imagined not having someone there with you. Who was it that said “the only thing to fear is fear itself” … mmmmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhhh, I think it was Roosevelt. Franklin, not Teddy.
Anyway, this is the time to pamper yourself. To find out who that special somebody is today.
Besides, you are never alone, you have Angels all around you. Tell me the hour you were born and I’ll write back with the names of your Angels.
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 8:24pm
sstiles54 says:
I vote NC with the unwanted entity.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:00pm
shabbychic2 says:
wini: cool… i was born at 12:20pm PST.
I do shop alone, have been to church, movies, etc… alone. I just hate being home all evening alone. I have always had a man in my life for the last 30 years (even if I was miserable 75% of the time)!!! I feel like I have been reduced to a person that is just waiting to be with him and in between, when I am not with him, I am just existing, waiting. I’m going to have to dig really deep inside myself to get out of this. At least this time I like myself a bit, so I am not crying about how it’s all my fault. I do go out and have fun with my friends, and while I am doing that I’m not thinking about him. I guess since it just happened this week I am doing better than expected. I wanted this to work out so much I ignored my own intuition.
He really knew all the right things to say and do to keep me off balance. I did not realize how desperate I was, how far I’d go, just to have somebody in my life. I am scared because I am sitting here waiting for him to call!! I look forward to reading this book, how could my strengths be what made me fall? I am too cooperative, that’s for sure.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:29pm
henry says:
we are here to learn about the entity - the way I feel is the entity has confirmed what we have learned - didn’t the thing’s he said ring true? we can talk about them till the cow’s come home - but when one want’s to share what make’s him tick and why then I feel validated in the way I feel about my X - cause he said thing’s my X would say - that just helps aleviate the benifit of the doubt - this is a place to learn about and avoid sociopaths -
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:32pm
henry says:
shabby - I recommend the book [meaning from madness] by Richard Skerritt - sorry you are feeling so alone, but after 30 years of being alone and miserable with someone, maybe like so many of us you need to get to know you alone. This is a life lesson - dont fail it - the truth will set you free - but first it will piss you off - hang in there shabby - you are never alone - you have your love fraud family to help you…..
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:37pm
Wini says:
Shabbychic2: Your Angel that oversees the Twelfth hour is Sarindiel.
He has officers under him. The chief officers are Adoniel, Darmosiel, Ambriel. The lesser officers these Angels are: Nefrias, Irmanotzod, Melanos.
That’s seven Angels that I gave you just from your birth hour. You have more…. so, just know you are never alone. None of us are. We just don’t realize it … even though God gives us free will, he sent us a blueprint … and knowing our EGOs … he ensures that we all have guardian Angels that oversee us from the minute we come in to this plane … and stay with us always!
Peace.
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:48pm
shabbychic2 says:
Wini: Thank you very much for the information about the Angels! Really very nice of you.
Henry: Thank you for the book suggestion and the encouraging words!
Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 10:08pm
Indigoblue says:
Dr. Winiabago
N/S/P clinic
Funny ! There would have to be a reward system ! They are not going to be talked into change!
Wini , from birth and even before birth in Genetics. The resurch shows Chemical pathways are altered , ie the road does’nt go there no more! That the Storage areas are’nt there! They have moved! The learning to read sheepl changes the program!
These preditors are reading us before they ever speak to us ! Bodylanguage Then when we do speek they are not interested in us as much as they are percieving how to use us for their motives!
Sences, sight, sound, touch, taste ,hear, 6th cents ??:)~
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 5:53am
libelle says:
Dear chic, being alone is one of the most difficult things one can do, especially when there was prior uproar and chaos; it is the more quieter than ever. The good thing is, that there is NO CHAOS, NO COMMANDER IN CHIEF, NO FEAR, NO BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS. There is no void or emptiness; there is calm, peace, tranquillity, solemn quietness.
This tuesday I was on my way to a meeting, I was sitting in my car on the highway and it was bad weather and I was behind an anxious driver and mad because I was late, but I could not help it anyway, and I started listening to the radio and there was a discussion about - quietness; a philosopher, a musician and a catholic monk.
I got quiet myself, because I realised that one need s a PAUSE every once in a while; this was MY car pause, and I forgot the poor driver in front of me. The musician said the moment just before the bow hits the string of the violin is magic to her, and the monk said that it is sometimes impossible to find peace to meditate, he also has to stress about and tries to muddle through with his life (when even such a man has his difficulties??). The philosopher said that the pauses make the rhythm inbetween the noise of life. It all made sense to me. One has to “listen” to the PAUSES in life to grasp the rhythm.
Maybe this is YOUR magic time before the bow hits the string of the violin again?
The addiction/withdrawal is a very nasty thing, and the cold turkey is very brutal, and I also wanted either more of the “drug” or anesthesia (being busy) to not feel its effects. But as I gradually went through and past it, it got slightly better. I am still very vulnerable, and at some occasion I have to remind/admonish myself for not pity-play with myself!! I found out why the addiction was so great, it was because it was like losing my father again. Explanation: My father is a P who never loved me, and my ex-P for obvious reasons was kind of like my father in many aspects but LOVED me. It was a lie, the love, whereas my father not loving me is a fact. I got over my father completely just this summer, my x-P helped me a lot with it, with initial disbelief, negation, hatred, screaming and yelling and NC and all, it took my about 25 YEARS (!) to get to complete emotional disconnection, it is like he had died; and as soon I realized that it is “more of the same” and that I have done plenty of this “bereavement work” already in my life to full circle I could let go of HIM quicker. I left him (emotionally) on an island in the baltic sea where I was on holidays. I said to myself: Well you have burned the bridge to your father, and it is THE SAME bridge to the P, and one cannot burn something twice (old chemical/physics law). This is my HEAD; my stomach is already very happy, it is my heart that has still a great longing for the “magic” moments with HIM and plays tricks on me in my fantasies, and it still hurts.
Maybe you find also a P in your “collection of old odd relationships”, maybe a friend- bully at school or a relative where some bereavement has already taken place? I wish you a peaceful weekend!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:37am
peaceatlast says:
The month of Decemeber I have been in Relationship Rehab. This site and all thebooks I have read have been my healers. I am currtently reading “Women who love Psychopaths”. This is an important book for me since I am one of the 75 women who contributed information. I am also a woman who was conned into going back into the addiciton iwth the P. I can highlight every word in this book! If there is a simple message that I can derive so far in my reading is that I have consistently confused intensity for intimacy.
Because of all of my intense work while in this rehab process when I go out on the social scene I know see people (make and female) very clearly. I have pity on both parties for their weaknesses and flaws. I can steer clear of the damaging people and gravitate to those who are healthy and those like me who are striving to be healthy.
I am not out of the woods but am on the path. I seek to have others join me on my journey to find God’s will for my life. You are all so essential in this process. You are my Angels!!!! Many thanks!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:49am
Healing Heart says:
Yes…the addiction..and the detox rehab process if brutal - that’s a great word “brutal.” At times my longing was so great, and my pain so intense, I didn’t think I could make it. I remember once in early July (the second to last time I saw him) I was basically on the floor in the fetal position, body wracked in pain, sobbing, and just devastated…because I realized (I was wrong) that I simply couldn’t live without him. I had to call him. And I did, and we spent 2-3 days together, and then, mercifully he raged at me over nothing, I was reminded that he was a monster, and things would never, ever, be good with him….and I told him to get lost. I was okay for a while, and then one more time I called him, and he stayed for only one day before I threw him out. I haven’t seen him now in over 5 months. It turns out I CAN live without him. And I’ve been getting happier and happier with each passing day. Okay - maybe that’s a little too sugarcoated. I’ve been getting less and less miserable with every passing day. And SOME days I am downright happy. I had a great time with my family at Christmas, and really felt appreciative. And relieved that I WAS NOT with him.
I don’t miss him any more. Which I never thought would come. THANK YOU. Though e does take up space in my head. I’m pissed off. Often I have revenge fantasies. But they are just that, fantasies. I will not act - I know better.
I am so grateful not to long for him anymore. That was brutal. And though you don’t think its possible at that time - you get to a place where you don’t want him any more.
Now I’m looking forward to getting to the place where I don’t hate him anymore - to a place where he just doesn’t register anymore - except as a very good lesson on how I can better take care of myself.
Hang in there! This IS a place of angels and survivors!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 12:29pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Healing Heart,
The feeling that we CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT “X” is the addiction, when we have spent too much of our energy letting our emotional stability, etc depend on something else or someone else.
I keep thinking about my relatinship with my late huband, and it was a good one, but HE WAS TOO MUCH OF MY LIFE, and when I lost him (as ALL relationships end at some point) I thought I couldn’t live. My life was GONE with his body! He didn’t intentionally dump me, but he DIED. Yet, I was left devestated and bereft and vulnerable and “alone” and so I became vulnerable to the P that came “a calling” and clung to him for a LIFE LINE. Of course when that one ended, I was doubly bereft. Now, I am no longer bereft or alone, I have ME, and me is what I need. I need to be able to STAND ALONE and not lean on others (or anything) in order to be WHOLE. ONE IS A WHOLE NUMBER, it is not just “half of two.”
Being INTER-dependent with someone else is much better than being DEPENDENT on anyone, no matter how wonderful. There is no guarentee that any relationship will last the rest of my life. People die. People leave. The ONLY person we will ultimately be left with is ourselves and if we are not a complete person in our own right, we will be devestated.
Learning to be WHOLE is made more difficult because I realize I should have learned this decades ago, but I am working on it NOW and on the path to growth and healing. Today is the first day of the rest of my life and I want it to be a good life.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 2:49pm
Healing Heart says:
Thank you Oxy, wise words. I did make him way too much of my life. He basically asked for that in the beginning “we don’t need friends - we just need each other” and after a small struggle I gave in. And I made him my world.
I love the thought of interdepence rather than dependence.
I’ve been reading the Women Who Love Psychopaths book - my God, its amazing….and its making me angry. The authors describe how our extreme capacity for empathy, tolerance, kindness, compassion, and relationship investment make us great targets for the S, who lacks all of these qualities. And we waste it on them!! And it makes me so angry that it is our kindess that makes us vulnerable.
I guess that kindness and capacity for empathy and compassion is what makes this site such a lovefest. We have gathered together a collection of the most kind and empathic people out there!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 3:24pm
Rune says:
I’ve mused on how they seem to target “the best of the best.” Good observations, HH.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear HH,
I need to order that book, because I have WONDERED what it is about me, what I lack (boundaries?) or have that makes me a target. What is the COMMON DENOMINATOR among us victims that makes us the “choice” of the Ps. We can see a common denominator in them, they go by the “P-play book” and it seems that we must have a “V-playbook” as well, what is it? What play book, what rules do WE go by? Obviously there has to be something in US that is there. WHAT?
Good choice of a subject and a research!!! Need to order it.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:03pm
Rune says:
Ox-D: It’s because we are decent. We follow the rules of decency. We can be counted on to be decent. We will give them the benefit of the doubt, and when they violate us, we say, “He didn’t mean that,” and we forgive. We believe in redemption.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:08pm
Indigoblue says:
They Count on and Target just that!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:12pm
Indigoblue says:
OxD
Your a loving person. that is all they needed to start with ! a normal loving careing nurturing person! I could use this to predict that women are more predisposed except that as a male that is not politically correct! :)~
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:18pm
OxDrover says:
I could make a LONG list of “politically correct” statements that are TOTAL UNTRUTHS! Many of which apply to the Ps. Unfortunately,, many of them are accepted as truths or used as “excuses.”
1. There’s good in everyone.
2. Poor guy, he had a horrible childhood and that is why he’s like that.
3. He just needs a good class in anger management.
4. Rehabilitation works.
5. They get better as they approach middle age.
6. No one is so bad they can’t change for the better.
7. He just needs to learn how to be loved.
8. His self esteem is low, if it was raised up, he would change.
I could go on, but I bet you guys could add to this list!!!!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:23pm
Healing Heart says:
My God….I told myself each and every one of those things in order to stay with him.
Oxy - I recommend the book, it’s really informative. But as I said earlier, it is making me angry. The traits that attract them to us are not that we are these wimpy little poor losers that no one loves…..we are accomplished, kind, loving, forgiving, tolerant, compassionate, spiritual, and, most of, all in the top 3% in empathy. We are an unusally empathetic bunch (according to the book).
As for them? They are less educated than we are (not all, but the vast majority), less accomplished, and have NONE of the good qualities we do. But they are very charming and make a world of promises that we believe.
I’m a bit amused by one thing - the book paints us as such nice people - I’m now thinking that I SHOULD get in touch with his exes because they are probably lovely women. I’ve always thought of them as Psychos (as he described) or have thought of them angrily because they were the OW. But they are probably wonderful women who would make good friends!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear HH,
I slightly knew my XBF-P’s X-wife and I did know several of his OW (but didn’t know they were OW) and yes, they are all good people in the main. Though I will say they carried on affairs with him for 5-10 yrs KNOWING HE WAS MARRIED and living with his wife, which is not something I consider “nice” behavior, and I WILL give it to them that I am sure he told them (as he told me) what a COLD FISH his wife was.
AFter the break up with him, I contacted his XGF and his Xwife and we had nice talks and you know it was very validating to me. It also clued me in on his Plan to find another “respectable” wife to cheat on. One of his long time GFs who was married herself, after he was divorced said “OH, great, now I can leave my husband and we’ll get married” and he said (GET ?THIS) “Oh, I could NEVER break up a family by marrying her.” I screamed back at him, “You hypocrit, you think sleeping with another man’s wife for 5 years off and on isn’t ‘breaking up the family’?” He didn’t see it that way. LOL ROTFLMAPO Sheesh!
The girl whose house he had burned while he was dating me (he took me to parties where she and her new BF were going to be to make her jealous I guess) and I realized what was going on, and put our heads together about her house burning and what he had said to me about wanting to burn his “cousin’s house” becaue his cousin had insulted his father. I kept telling him how wrong this was. Then when he would talk about it, he KEPT CHANGING THE STORY OF WHY HE WANTED TO BURN THIS COUSIN’S HOUSE and I started to smell a rat, especially when HER HOUSE BURNED. By then I knew that when his wife had caught him and thrhown him out he had run to this former GF and said ‘Darling, throw out your BF I’m moving in with you” and she said “NO WAY, stupid, you had your chance and you blew it” SHE REJECTED HIM in the end because he had rejected her by refusing to leave his wife for the 8-9 yrs they had had an off again on again relationship. He couldn’t stand it that a woman would reject him. Ah, the irony of it all!
His wife had suspected his infidelity all along but had stayed because of their kid (who unfortunately is just like his dad, only a drug addict instead of a drunk) and because of finances. She is glad he is gone though and glad she doesn’t have to placate him all the time any more.
He just remarried a few months ago, and I really feel sorry for the woman, she probably is already starting to see his “bad side” and his controlling side, and I am sure she will eventually catch him as well, though he is pretty good about hiding the affairs. I am sure some of them will be the long time “harem” he has accumulated in various states in our living history groups gatherings. Oh, well, he isn’t my problem any more and I am glad he is gone. I could have ended up the “respectable” wife and been blown out of the water again. Glad I caught on before the nuptiuals.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:59pm
Rune says:
Ox-D: I think you’re describing his thrill at risk-taking. Going to parties where he’s the one who knows the hidden liaisons, he pulls the strings, he knows that someone might talk and he’ll get caught out, but he’s enjoying the thrill. Talking about burning a house (as if that’s a NORMAL(?!!) topic of conversation?). I see that “marriage” with these guys is another way of co-opting a decent person, binding them in an alliance so they’re less likely to blow the whistle, and then they can have the OW, etc., etc. Notice how “his wife had suspected . . . but stayed because . . .”
Lucky you. He deserved to be put on the top of the list, like the bottle-fed cow. Oh, wait. We don’t do that, do we?
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 5:16pm
EyeoftheStorm says:
healing Heart wrote…….”I’ve been reading the Women Who Love Psychopaths book - my God, its amazing….and its making me angry. The authors describe how our extreme capacity for empathy, tolerance, kindness, compassion, and relationship investment make us great targets for the S, who lacks all of these qualities. And we waste it on them!! And it makes me so angry that it is our kindess that makes us vulnerable.”
This is interesting because I have noticed that things got better for me with N/P/S types when I stopped being nice….when I stopped putting up with their stuff, made it clear, and didn’t care anymore what they said or did about it. Emotional immunity!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 5:37pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Eye,
That is called SETTING BOUNDARIES and I AM LEARNING HOW TO DO IT! LOL What an empowering feeling of being able to set a boundary and say “I will be treated this way or get out of my life”—WOW!!! Talk about a heady power trip! I don’t NEED anyone in my life who wants to abuse me. Abuse me and you are OUT, I realize I have not lost a thing but pain! Whether it is a cow or a lover!!!
Yes, Rune, we are not allowed to “put down” a psychopath even for the good of society…darn those rules! LOL And unfortunately, the way our “criminal justice system” works (now THAT’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one) there is too much chance the wrong person would be hung so I am not sure I agree with capitol punishment unless there is DNA evidence to prove guilt in like a rape/murder. There are too many guys who are being proven innocent by DNA and let off death row or out of prison who were TRULY innocent (as opposed to “not guilty”). Sometimes our system is about like the witch trials at Salem (unfortunately.)
I could just sell the cow, but why send a dangerous animal to hurt someone else who doesn’t know about her? Best to just put her in the freezer and be done with it.
With the Ps, just stay away from them and let them bring down their own house of cards is all I can suggest since we don’t have a “Devil’s Island” to transport them to. LOL
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 6:02pm
Rune says:
Ox-D: I like a good steak from time to time.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 6:28pm
EyeoftheStorm says:
OxDrover,
I struggled for such a long time too, then all of a sudden I was doing it! Setting the boundaries. Saying out loud “I will not allow this” and turning around and walking away! It was an evolution or sorts……………..all of a sudden one day, you recognize the growth, and the progress, and your ability to act on your own behalf.
For those still in a place of deep hurt and great pain, it can take a long time to heal from that. Years in some cases.
I used to think and say all the PC things. I could think up the most excruciatingly compassionate reasons for excusing and allowing the most outrageous unacceptable behavior.
I still have a struggle with the normal garden variety stuff that goes on with other people from time to time. Usually, though, I know with whom I am dealing and how much to overlook….what is personality and what might be pathology…..what is a devious Machiavellian tactic and what is a mistake.
I’ve also learned to enjoy peaceful serene people. They do not take you on a roller coaster ride. They are so pleasantly consistent and reliable, and they don’t specialize in carefully placed hooks wrapped with intensity and excitement that baits our interest.
I once knew an N who thought a friend of mine was “stupid”! Then I realized that he was seeing her as stupid because she was so honest and sincere! She, on the other hand, kept telling me he was “peculiar”!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 6:46pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Eye,
I think they do look at us as “stupid” in one way, yet they also seem to want someone “smart” to put one over on because if someone is “retarded” it isn’t so much of a challenge. I think that is what is so frustrating about me to my P son is that he knows I am not stupid, so he gets a real thrill out of putting one over on me…the Troan Horse, though when he was informed that I had made the DVD to give to the parole board in my son’s upcoming parole hearing in Jan 2011 (if I were dead and couldn’t go myself) he realized I had “trumped my son’s ace” and changed his own plans, effectively blowing off my P son’s plans and hauling out with my other son’s wife and my mom’s money, after killing my son C. (My X-DIL’s idea I am sure).
Yes, you are right, hanging out with people who are not Machiavellian-minded is the ONLY way to go, and setting strict limits with those that you have to associate with for one reason or another—or keeping the at a good “arm’s length” away.
If we let them get by with scamming us or cheating us, they view us as “sheeple” (I love that word!!!) and have no respect for us except as DUPES…which of course validates their own opinion that they are sooooo smart and special. Funny thing though is that REALITY doesn’t enter into their computations. My P son, in prison since he was 17 except for a few months out between crimes a couple of times, views my son C as a “complete failure” and a “sheeple” but views HIMSELF as a “successful” WINNER!!! DUH???!!!
The “loser son” has a college degree, is free, has never been to prison or jail, though he did marry a user/abuser and did stay with her for 8 yrs, but he is good looking, good work history, very smart, very kind and caring, and well liked and respected in the community—my (convict) “winner”–let’s see, hasn’t had a relationship with a woman except the one he killed in 1991, has been in prison multiple times, has NO friends except his convict and ex-convict friends, never finished high school, talks, thinks and looks like a thug, and has been in prison effectively for 20 years, has had about every bone in his body broken in fights in prison, his teeth are decaying from lack of care, looks older than his 38 years, and has had NO life outside of prison. On the positive side, he is smart, and has learned to make custom fitted boots while in prison and is so good at it that pairs of his boots (back when he was allowed in the craft shop) sold for up to $2500 each.
If he ever does get out (which I will see that he is not able to if I can) he will have NO help at all on the outside, and no skills in how to live on the outside, so he will go back to prison again very quickly—he will also make no effort to go straight, “cause that is for rubes and squares—” and losers like his brother! LOL
I’m less forgiving of the “petty crap” than I used to be, I just have zero tolerance for it, and don’t get intimate with anyone who engages in it, I just keep them at arm’s length and try not to make waves or get too iinvolved with them.
BTW your “stupid” friend sounds pretty on the ball to me, she picked right up on him that something was PECULIAR! LOL
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 7:33pm
libelle says:
Dear Oxy, I think the denominator for being attracted to psychopaths could be that at least you and I have been brought up by “strange, peculiar” mothers, and I assume that the relationships of our grandmothers (the mothers of the mothers) have had some knack as well.
From my pedigree I can tell that at least in my father’s line there must have been several dysfunctional relationships in various generations, and the pedigree dates back to the early 1700.
My great-great-grandmother was abandoned by her husband. He told them that he was going to America to start making a fortune and have them come later, but she found out that he was a bigamist in Brazil. She had to run the horse changing station, along with a hotel. And she managed that my great grand father could become a physician!
There were several other “drones”, one was even given a one-way ticket to the USA, and the last sign of life from him was a postcard stating “On the shores of the pacific I swore revenge!”. Maybe some genes of his are still around in the USA? So for generations all females got a good education and all were working even when it was common sense in my country until the late 1950s that women “need no education/profession, it’s a waste of money as they marry anyway”. My female ancestors knew better! They were teachers etc, even a prison warden was amongst them, and they were basically able to stand on their own feet financially. My grandmother was one of the very few women to enter University in the early 20s. Many of the “drones” married rich girls but most of them ended just “even” at the end of their lives by losing it all again. So the next generation had to start at zero. Hence the saying in our family: the best inheritance is a good education, because money is not safe and can be lost.
Maybe there lies the key for our vulnerability (wrong genes AND learned behaviour), as the P/N/S look for strong independant people to conquer them, break them, leave them. I am always wondering where it started. Who was enabling, who was the “Culprit”. Maybe you can do some relationship-research in your pedigree too; illegimite children, suicides, one way tickets to the USA (why?), bancrupsy, and so on; very interesting though very depressing as well. I had to do this for a course some years ago and I felt tremendous shame and sadness about it all. To my big surprise EVERYBODY had at least SOME black sheep in their pedigree!
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 7:38pm
peaceatlast says:
I am a much healthier and less guilt ridden woman for having read WOMEN WHO LOVE PSYCOPATHS (I read it in one day). I have been feeling guilty because I attracted a NP. Feeling guilt about this is like a rape victim thinking that she asked for it! So many of my positive traits appealed to the P and he systematically worked on my strengths to make them my weaknesses.
Many years I ago I was involved with an alcoholic man. When it was over, I was very concerned that it could happen again. However, with lots of education on what to look for….I am free of this concern. When it comes to Ps and Ns I feel I am getting a better radar system in place. One thing for certain…when the opportunity presents itself…I will take a long time to get to know a man. A good man will be respectful of my concerns and a P or N will run to the next potential victim since patience is not their strength.
Bottom Line: No Contact with the past and very firm boundaries in the future. I feel very enlightened and stronger. So glad for this process to communicate in this fabulous community of caring women. It is our caring nature that makes us prey….but that nature is not be devalued but nurtured and protected against evil.
Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:23pm
Healing Heart says:
I have had the same experience as peaceatlast in reading Women Who Love Psychopaths in that I feel better, and less like a sucker, for having been involved in one of these relationships. NOT THAT I WANT TO BE IN ONE AGAIN, but that there are so many good qualities about us that allow us to get into these relationships.
Yes, our weak points sucked us in, or more like kept us in, and I’m willing to bet that 99% of us had abusive and/or neglectful parents. There are definitely hurt or stunted parts of us that played a role in our participation in these relationships.
But it is mainly our beautiful qualities (some that emerged as a result of our childhoods) that made us such good partners. We are loving, trusting, forgiving, empathethic, cooperative, compassionate…..and we are not “losers.” We tend to be much MORE educated and accomplished than our ex S’s.
I think a challenge for US….or at least for me, is to not lose my kindness, trust, forgiveness, and compassion in all of this….and not to become bitter, but to be wiser. And, most importantly, to learn to treat myself with just as much love and respect as I treat other people. Hopefully that will someday be reflexive, and won’t require thought and effort.
I love what you said peaceatlast “No Contact with the past and very firm boundaries in the future.” Yes!
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 8:34am
justabouthealed says:
Peaceatlast: I don’t mean to hijack this discussion about p/s, etc but I just had the shock of my life. You mentioned alcoholic. I have referred to my mentally healthy husband. Well, I just discovered and then he confessed that he has had a severe drinking problem that he has hid from me for 38 years. It is beyond my capability or the interests of the board, to explain how that is possible, except I travel lots and he has simply had a hidden life of drinking. So much of what I thought was real is not. I swear it is not as painful as the S, but this is so horrible and I have no idea whether to divorce or not at age 58, no kids. Plus my mom is in hospice, pneumonia now on top of Parkinson’s. It is all to much. We have a call into a marriage counselor. All I can say for the S and what I went through, is it prepared me to be strong for this. You may recall my husband gave me permission for an affair (he now says he didn’t think I’d do it), and I had been mildly stocked by my first love for 40 years who turned out to be a bad guy. It more resembled a stockholm/bond date rape situation than an affair. Anyway, I’ve been healing from that betryal bond, getting over it ….swearing anyone who hurts me is OUT, and thought my husband and I had reconnected a year ago, NO MORE SECRETS, blah, blah, blad…..and now this. all the reading I’ve done tells me get out. But even my girlfirends, knowing this about him now, say he is a keeper. He is otherwise a decent person, but basically esp the last five years I have supported him while he was getting buzzed everytime I was gone, and that’s why the house looked like “an alcoholic lives here”….that is what I used to say, having no idea it was the truth. THEN on top of that, I was trying to get over my “controlling, complaining, criticizing”, thinking that I was causing his lack of responsibility by “nagging” about things like “The IRS says you haven’t filed”. GEEEZZZ. anyway, I’m just dead. It is as if I finally discovered he had another family, or is gay, or some ohter hidden life, porn, whatever. He swears everything will change now, he’s going to get help, he went to his first AA meeting, but is now going to switch to one for non-believers. Anyway, I’ll check in later, but I ‘ve got to get some work done.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 1:38pm
Healing Heart says:
“First things first” as they say in AA. I think you need to get your husband into treatment - rehab if he’s amenable, or at least make sure he gets to an AA meeting.
I can imagine how this feels like quite a betrayal - but its not the same as a sociopath. If your husband is an addict (alcoholic) he was pretty helpless to stop drinking, was likely ashamed, and kept hoping he would be able to stop and not have to tell you.
It wil take time for him to win your trust back - but for now, I would concentrate on helping him get sober (by getting him to the right resources, not attempting to heal him yourself).
You’ve repeatedly said he was a good man, and was good to you. Maybe focus, first, on helping him get/stay sober, and then later deal with the implications on your relationship. He will be useless to you and himself if his alcoholism progresses.
Good luck PAL, my thoughts are with you.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 2:13pm
Healing Heart says:
I’m sorry I meant to say Good Luck - My thoughts are with you, JAH
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 2:17pm
justabouthealed says:
PS I meant stalked, not stocked. Anyway, you all don’t know me, so I know, you see I had an affair, permission or not, and so I seem like a horrible person, but believe me, I really am NOT.Even my husband’s sister told me to have an affair, my husband told me too! I was just nothing in his life, NOW I know why. Yet I sensed if I left him, he’d go down, down, down. NOW I know why. Well, whether you are with a P or an alcoholic, I guess there are certain realities there are no escaping from. Having an affair was just a way to add to my problems, not solve them. And that was extremely brief, more a series of assaults, and two years ago.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 3:16pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you HH……my best girlfriends who know him well say he is a good man …and he has been good except for the irresponsibility and lack of interest in me or anything that the addiction caused. Thank you, I trust the wisdom you show on this site, I will hang in there. And thank you for your kindness.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 3:18pm
Healing Heart says:
JAH - I know you had an affair - you have been very forthcoming about that, which I respect.
You seem to me, from what I can gather, to be a good person. And you are spirited and warm and funny..and a lot of other things. So you had an affair…..it’s not so bad, JAH. As much as I don’t like that my S cheated repeatedly, I understand that for most folks, an affair is complex and it is very different than the cheating of the S. I wouldn’t beat yourself up so much about the affair. Learn from it, but don’t shame yourself. You had enough of that in your life with a P
Take care of yourself. His drinking is in no way your fault. He has a serious problem with drinking. Just take care of yourself, and see that he takes care of himself. There is a lot of alcoholism in my family - so I can empathize. See that he gets help. And this will be a good opportunity for you to set boundaries and limits for yourself.
No…I don’t “know” you realworld, but from what I know online, I think you are a real cool chick with a big, warm, heart. No judgment from this lady - just love.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 4:41pm
libelle says:
Dear justabouthealed, if I may make one comment. You CAN’T HELP an addict! You just can support him in his own way to get help himself when he is ready for it.
If he is a heavy drinker or even not so heavy but steadily so he is constantly “not drunk” but needs alcohol on a regular basis for not having withdrawal symptoms (what I suspect as you did not notice anything FOR 38 YEARS !!!, and Wodka does not give a bad smell), I would urgently consult your GP or go with your husband to an ER, as “getting sober” can lead to a sometimes deadly delirium! Their livers are very often heavily damaged, and they need medication to overcome the withdrawal symptoms, and it is definitely one of the very dangerous things “you should not try at home”! Sometimes patients even need to go to the intensive care unit as the salts in the blood bounce and the circulation may collapse, and they get confused and need constant surveilance.
He should NOT stop drinking fully without being observed closely by a doctor, and I recommend to go to the GP/ER immediately if he is determined to quit!
After having dropped him at the hospital/GP you have done all what you can possibly do! Stand by your man and let the husband and the health care workers do what has to be done. You can’t do any more besides “stand by your man”. HE should be lucky for not being divorced by YOU! And I am pretty sure HE knows it too!
Was the affair a cry for help from YOUR side as you sensed that there was something wrong? Your husband maybe has even used your affair to have another reason to drink as he obviously ENCOURAGED YOU to go for the affair. In this case he abused you and almost forced you acting as a Co-Dependent (”I drink because my wife has an affair!”). Just try to think THIS way. For 37 years or so he drank for HIMSELF!
At the moment there is no time for remorse on either side or vice-versa-pity play, but plain “first things first”, and that is: “Where do we stand? If you are ready I call the doctor”. Now you both can prove to each other that you as a couple can take the “bad times” as they come, and I am convinced after this all you are an even better couple!
Do you have an AA-group in your neighborhood? They may have also supportgroups for relatives/family of alcoholics, and maybe you can join such a group.
IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!!!!
This is a common situation, sad but true, and they are very often “good soft men” who can’t control the addiction, and in the end they often lose everything.
It must be very difficult for you to deal with the whole situation, but as I understood he kept this secret for a VERY long time, and they are really good at it! In the end they drink because they do not want anybody to know they are drinking, to get rid of the shaking in the morning, the nausea.
My thoughts are with you, and I am convinced that this is kind of a “final blast” before the fog REALLY settles. You have come a LONG way so far, you are “Justabouthealed”, after that you will be “healed for good”, I am very positive about that! ((Hugs))
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 5:07pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you so much, I cried and cried when I read your post HH. This is all so hard and such a shock. He is getting help.
All this, ALL THIS,,,,,it is not how my life was supposed to turn out. I’ve got to get a grip here. thank you so much.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 5:09pm
Matt says:
justabouthealed:
I grew up with two alcoholic, highly successful Ns. My S, I came to realize, had relapsed into cocaine and was an addict by the time I drove him off.
Healing Heart says “I think you need to get your husband into treatment - rehab if he’s amenable, or at least make sure he gets to an AA meeting.
I generally agree with Healing Heart on most things, but I have to disagree in this instance. It is NOT YOUR responsibility to get him to an AA meeting, rehab or anything else. It is HIS responsibility.
There is a saying in AA that “an alcoholic will get you drunk before you will get him sober”. Go to Al-Anon. It will give you some insight into what you’re dealing with.
When my parents and ex-S had me reeling, I am the first to admit I reached for the bottle. He has put you on a slippery slope. You need to take care of yourself.
I think the real question for you is “Will my life be better or worse with him in it?” That is not a question you have to answer now. My parents I’m stuck with. The S? Even if he weren’t a sociopath, I realized I couldn’t afford to have his addiction in my life.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 5:18pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you libelle, thank you….I’m scared, I’m going to go talk to him right now. He does look awful and said he quit. Thank you.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 5:21pm
Healing Heart says:
JAH - Based on something Matt wrote, I’m concerned that I may have said something that didn’t come across just right. Matt is right, as are the others - YOU cannot get him sober. I just suggest, that as his wife and a caring partner, you help him (push him) to take the first step toward treatment - tell him to go to rehab, or an AA mtg, or he’s out. In no way do I want to convey that I feel you should be responsible. It’s up to him to get sober.
I made some phone calls and found a rehab for my brother. and I drove him there. Later, on his request and the request of his treaters, I attended a family session. It was very helpful for his treatment, and for our family. That was the end - the rest of it was work he did with his counselors, sponsor, etc. In no way to I feel like I was enabling or being codependent for driving my brother to rehab or attending a family session.
Don’t take on his addiction, but maybe help him take the first steps - even if that means saying “I love you, but you need to get help, or you’re out.” He’s your husband - you love him, and he will need your love and support. Not your responsibility to cure him - just to support and love him. And not at your own expense.
Its nice to see everybody rally for you JAH - you are loved!
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 6:00pm
Matt says:
Healing Heart:
“Don’t take on his addiction…” That is so key.
With my S, I called myself his “one man Salvation Army”. Taking on someone’s addiciton, trying to make things right for a S, it’s the same drill, isn’t it? End of the day, you’re doomed to fail.
Difference is, with an addict, you can feel empathy for their problem, even though it’s their call how they want to deal with their problem. With an S, you can’t have empathy, because there is no solution to their disorder.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 8:21pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you all, your support and advice means more than you will ever know. I am very scared but I will insist he get help. and keep getting help. We just had an argument that brought out some PTSD fear in me (though I think I showed no outward signs other than being afraid to speak or move) and my one wonderful dog just got up and came and sat right in front of me. As he is very large, it calmed me down, and my husband stopped his verbal bullying, which is TOTALLY out of character for him. So definitely in the grips of an addiction. We will get through this, one way or another. I know he needs my support, but it is hard when he lied for 38 years , finally got caught and couldn’t explain it all away, though I guess he could have kept quiet about all the years, and he is verbally attacking, trying to do anything but face his drinking issue. Well, he seems to be okay physically, I guess his pattern is starting and stopping. He has agreed to counseling, we’ll see, but god I wish this were just all over. Life is too much sometimes. But than you all for the grace you have extended to me.
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 9:09pm
justabouthealed says:
I meant THANK you all for the grace!
Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 9:10pm
Wini says:
justabouthealed: My EX brother-in-law (which he’s still my brother-in-law even though he’s not married to my sister) is a drug counselor. You have to be an ex addict in order to counsel others.
When I asked him what it was that people drink or do drugs, he couldn’t believe I didn’t know the answer to it. I said, well, what is it. He said, people who are constantly drinking or doing drugs are selfish individuals. They tells so many lies over the years so they can do their drug of choice … that they believe their own lies. When they attend AA meetings, the first big step for them in to stand up in front of all at the meeting and announce their name and that they are an alcoholic or druggie. After that, counseling consists of step by step to get them to the point that they can admit that their selfishness runs their addiction and that they have conned everyone for years with the constant use of their drug.
It is at the point that they have to admit they are selfish individuals … that the majority drop out of the clinics.
Good luck. Remember, you can’t get your spouse to do anything. He is responsible for his own actions.
I suggest you get into AL-A-NON for emotional support. Addiction of anything is the worst monkey on anyone’s back and you need to understand how he’s manipulated you over the years to continue his drinking and verbal abuse is one of the manipulation techniques. You can’t handle this on your own and you need the support of the Al-A-NON groups to assist you with knowledge of the truth of what is really going on. If you do not get this support, you husband will lie and lie and lie to you … which doesn’t allow either one of you to have the best life possible. You will continue living a lie. His lie.
Peace.
Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 2:01am
Healing Heart says:
Al-anon is a great suggestion. The women (and men) in that community are better equipped to help you than anybody. Go to a mtg, and take their suggestions. There are a lot of good people that go to those meetings. Like any community, there will be some people that you will recognize as a little “off” - but most will be helpful and kind.
Hope you are doing okay today, Justabouthealed. Take care of yourself! You deserve it!
Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 9:30am
justabouthealed says:
Just feels like my world is crashing around me. I had him on such a pedestal all these years, but I’m starting to see he is extremely selfish, you are right. I am trying to get some antidepressants that my therapist suggested, and I have a few old anit-anxiety tablets I’m taking now, because I HAVE TO FUNCTION, I HAVE TO KEEP MY JOBS. I will try to get to al-anon, it is just hard, I’m so rural, it is a tiny town, I can drive two hours to a city that I fly out of and where my mom is. She is still hanging on by a thread. This is all just a huge, huge mess and it is so hard to accept he has lied all these years.
Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 11:21am
peaceatlast says:
Support groups and blogs like this help us break our addictions to the Psychopaths that manipulate us. If you cannot leave and addict, perhaps you have your own special addiction to him. That has to go first! This blog is helping me go through a realtionship addiction……the first steps of detox are very tough. Very physical and emotional. Stay with it. You need to save yourself. That is the only person you can save.
Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 5:21pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
I just want to chime in with how much better I felt after reading “Women Who Love Psychopaths.”
The description of the type of women was the most relieving and encouraging thing. When I was with him, and falling apart, I kept saying, “I didn’t used to be like this.” But I couldn’t remember how I used to be.
This book reminded me, and made me feel infinitely better about myself. Likewise the explanation of the relationship pattern and how we get hooked.
If you every wondered why there were so many smart, strong people on Lovefraud, you’ll understand why when you read the book.
JAH, if you can find an Al-Anon meeting, you’ll find more smart people who really understand what you’re going through. On the website you can download the first chapter of the book “Paths to Recovery.” Here’s the URL.
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/chapter.html
As someone recovering from a relationship with a sociopath, I found that everything they said is exactly what I’ve faced. The main difference, I supposed, is that addicts can recover and sociopaths can’t.
But whichever you’re dealing with, your challenge is to learn to take care of yourself. A quote from this chapter on the web page is:
“Admitting our powerlessness may be very difficult for us. After all, we are the competent ones who held the family, the job, or the world together while the alcoholics in our lives created chaos. How can it be that we, the responsible ones, are powerless?”
The fact is that we are powerless to change them. They have to do it for themselves. And meanwhile, you have your own work to do in recovering from the devastation of your life. And just like him, you have to want to do it for yourself.
Alcoholics and other addicts are like sociopaths because they can’t maintain real relationships. They only care about one thing. In the sociopaths case, it’s himself or herself. In the addict’s case, what was once a “medicine” to block painful feelings has become an uncontrollable need for a chemical or activity which has its own life. For the addict, access to the “fix” comes before anything else. The way it plays out for anyone who loves them, there’s not much difference between the two.
I thought there might be online meetings listed on the site, but apparently Al-Anon doesn’t do that. There is an 800 number for finding the closest meetings.
Good luck. It may not seem like it today, but your life is going to become much better. Really.
Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 7:10pm
Healing Heart says:
Yes, Kathleen, the book is really helpful. I recommend that everybody on the site reads it. I was a little nervous about reading it, and learning more bad news about myself…..but its really good, and reflects well on us. I mean its made me even madder than before at the ex S who capitalized on my good qualities, but its nice to be reminded that I have good qualities.
JAH - I hope the world is a little less chaotic for you tonight. I’m so sorry that you are facing a husband who is an alcoholic who has been lying to you all these years. That’s the last thing you need!
I hope he is doing better, too, has calmed down, and is accepting and surrendering to his problem. If he is verbally abusing you - that’s totally unacceptable. Throw him out. But if he’s being respectable to you and accountable for his actions, you may want to continue to love and support him.
I can tell that this is not the popular viewpoint on this blog - but I come from a long line of alcoholics and Addicts….I’ve seen some get better, and, well, most kill themselves. It’s a beautiful journey when somebody gets better. I had a two cousins who were heroin addicts who could not get better - we cut them off after attempting to help and repeatedly getting ripped off. Buh-bye. But my brother, who is an alcoholic, was amenable to help. And he’s been sober for 10 years…now …and now has a wife and two beautiful children….a great career, beautiful home. I’m so happy that he was able to recover. I’m glad that I helped him, too. Again, I didn’t try to cure him…but I pointed him in the right direction and gave a shove. That was the most I could and should do. I think everybody deserves some help - every heroin addict, crack addict, alcoholic, help them…..once. And if they aren’t able to take your help and be grateful - buh-bye. But I think it is kind…..and not enabling or being a doormat, to try to help someone we love who has an addiction. Just a shove in the right direction….not a whole florence nightingale routine.
I don’t know your husband, but you have repeatedly described him as a good man. I wouldn’t wish addiction on any one - its horrific.
But, of course, JAH, take care of yourself first and foremost.
I was out to dinner with a girlfriend last night talking about how “God never gives you more than you can handle.” And though I do believe that is true, I also believe that God pushes you to the brink, gives you the maximum amount you can handle without a millimeter of more room for anything else….and watches you come back from that. To heal from huge and heavy burdens is a tremendous act of strength. God apparently things you are one strong mama! You can do it, Sister. You are that strong. You will get through this as you always do….and you will shine!!!!!
Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 11:33pm
justabouthealed says:
HH, thank you so much for giving so generously of your time to me…and everyone else your post above may help.
We are seeing a marriage counselor tomorrow that my therapist recommended as one very good at dealing with alcoholics.
My struggle, as all of you can imagine, is am I once again excusing inexcusable behavior, is this another betrayal bond? It feels different, very different, than the betrayal by the P. This hurts, deeply, but I can understand it. There is not that HUH?! feeling. There is no cognitive dissonance. I understand how he can love me AND all this happened. The details make sense, the big picture makes sense. All my girlfriends say he is a good man, a very good man, give him a chance to recover.
So I will, but I’m using the steps in the Betrayal Book that he gives as ground rules for a full relationship with someone who has exploited you, abused you, etc. My husband has agreed to all the steps. The only one I’m not sure about is a period of separation, so we will ask the marriage counselor what he thinks of that.
My husband now knows all the details of my involvement with the P and was so supportive, so understanding and says he is so proud of the journey I’ve been on to overcome that trauma, which so repeated my childhood trauma (and the P was literally PART of my childhood too!). Which is mind blowingly supportive, and sure, he is wanting forgiveness himself very much so, but his reaction was if you could overcome that addiction (the betrayal bond addiction), I can overcome mine.
So we will see. Again, thank you everyone.
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 11:29am
justabouthealed says:
Kathleen, Wini, Matt, Libelle, all….
I’m still having trouble adjusting to the fact that I’ve lived with an alcoholic all these years and did not know it. Now the signs are jumping out of me….the lack of ambition, not taking care of himself or the house, no job the last 5 years, his lack of responsibility, the huge stacks of papers everywhere, the lack of financial responsibility……I will go read that link. I have sensed something missing in our love….obviously…and all this is so painful to take in. He wants to rush to “it’s all better now”, I know it is not. But he’s going to a psychiatrist (says he will), has gone to one AA meeting, is going to another that is called something about recovery. This all hurts so bad, but I will make it. For the first time in my life, I feel like I could face life alone. That is the ONLY good from the P….I am a much stronger person and also not willing to think everything is okay. It is not. It will be a long time before all this mess is cleaned up.
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 11:54am
Kathleen Hawk says:
JAH,
Something you’ll hear about from AA or Al-Anon is the strong suggestion that people in recovery not start new relationships before they’ve completed at least a year of sobriety.
The reason is that they are not the same person when they begin recovery as they will be a year or more down the road. Stopping drinking is just the beginning of recovery. Recovery means recovering who you are without the drug. There’s the physical detox and there’s the mental and emotional one.
Whatever your husband says to you right now, you’re still listening to an addict. He’s still fix-oriented, and he’ll still lie, exaggerate, and promise and not deliver. He may be telling himself that if he makes you or the marriage his replacement fix, that he can justify this behavior. Or he may not have the residual moral strength right now to do any better. In any case, I’d take everything he says with a big pinch of salt.
Action, not talk, is what you need to pay attention to. If he does go to the psychiatrist, if he does go to AA, if he does start cleaning up his act, if he does start telling the truth in all ways… then you can start feeling provisionally good. It doesn’t mean he’s cured, but it means he’s serious.
The other thing that you’re facing is a bumpy ride with him as he starts dealing with his own stuff. I keep talking about grief processes, but this is another one. AA isn’t therapy, but it tends to bring up deep personal issues and the requirement to face them in order to move on. So you may be dealing with someone who is going through the various phases of grief processing — denial, bargaining, anger, depression and resolution/learning. In other words, he’s going to be self-involved in ways that are new.
This is all the more reason for you to get into therapy or Al-Anon or both — not just to help you cope with his stuff, but also to redevelop your own life strategies. You may not think there will be a hole in your life when he gets better, but the reality is that his drinking has controlled your life as well as his. I’ve been through this, and in early recovery, I frankly liked my partners better when they were drinking. Without the booze all their prickly, insecure, controlling, whiny, needy stuff emerged. And it was really challenging to maintain my own commitment to the relationship.
The good news is that, if they do stick with it, they get better. And if you do corresponding work on yourself, you get two people who are both grown-up and have real reason to trust and value each other. There are a lot of happy endings in these stories (as well as a lot of divorces).
I wish you well on this big adventure.
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 12:26pm
OxDrover says:
JAH—Kathy’s advice is RIGHT ON! Perfect! I too acknowledge that you have a rocky road ahead. Your husband may ALSO be a psychopath as well as an addict, but until he stops drinking you can’t tell which he is (or both.) The AA groups call these people “DRY drunks” because they are still psychopaths (and or just asses) and even though they are not drinking any more, they are still manipulative and mean.
Until your husband dries out, and you see what he is like sober, there is no way for you to tell WHAT he is.
Kathy, I too liked my X-P BF better drunk than sober, but I actually didn’t know that he was high or almost knee walking because he was a “secret” drinker of vodka or gin and I couldn’t smell it on him as he would also smoke when he drank and he kept a bottle hidden under the seat of his vehicle. In finding the bottles accidently I realized about his “secret” drinking, because NO ONE keeps a bottle under the seat of their vehicle unless they are hiding it. LOL
Good luck JAH!! (((hugs)))) and always prayers.
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 12:42pm
Wini says:
Justabouthealed: I know many couples that the sober spouse would sabotage the addicted spouse’s recovery … aka bringing drugs or alcohol to the recovery center during the spouse’s stay at rehab. Watch out that you do not go the enabler route … just to keep your marriage. Both couples need to be honest when dealing with rehab … for both are absorbed into the addiction, even though one partner never touched the substance.
Be open with the counselors … if you lie about anything, you can not fully heal. No matter what the question(s) asked, answer truthfully. Rehab counselors have seen and heard it all. Believe me, anything you could tell them wouldn’t faze them in the least.
Good luck.
Peace.
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 3:31pm
henry says:
I don’t know why I did it, but I was close to his place of work this evening, so I drove through the parkin lot and there was his truck, so he is still at the same job, same hour’s. Have been curious if he is still around. Has been 10 month’s NC, except for one time 2 months ago he showed up here, but I wouldn’t let him in. I don’t go out of my way to check on him, but I was in that city today and close by, if nothing else I know he is still around and in the same vehicle. But now I feel like a stalker, really I don’t miss him, was just curious and close by so……it has upset me just a tad. just thinkin out loud here….
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 10:11pm
Matt says:
Henry:
I can relate. Last night I had a board meeting for a charity I’m involved with. The charity’s headquarters are 4 blocks from where my S lives. I had to fight the urge to walk by his apartment house and look up the window. And I mean fight. The only thing that kept me from checking out his place was that it was freezing out. But, I had the same reaction you did — I was upset about it.
Tuesday, 13 January 2009 @ 10:28pm
shabbychic2 says:
libelle: Thank you for your comments to my post. I was out of town for 3 days (with no computer to use)! You are right, I have to learn how to be calm and peaceful while alone. I am hanging in there and still reading all the comments, sometimes this site feels like my lifeline.
Wednesday, 14 January 2009 @ 2:45am
AllPainNoGain says:
I don’t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I don’t know where else to go. Married to a sociopath for 2 years now, I’m feeling very suicidal. I can’t take it anymore. Reading all the posts makes almost feel worse. On one hand I’m so glad to hear that there are people out there that know how I feel and that I’m not crazy, but I’m completely alone in utter despair.
There’s nothing left of the life that was once mine… once normal. Now I’m this pathetic loser with no friends, no life, no interests, no dignity, and no self-esteem, and no money. It’s all gone. All that’s left is me sitting here with my two puppies, a husband that despises me because he considers me weak and pathetic. And I suppose I am now. He tells me I have mental issues. No S**T!!! Who wouldn’t after all this?
The daily abuse I endure is beyond what any human being should ever have to. The cheating, lying, and laughing at my pain is enough to make anyone want to kill themselves. I don’t know what to do. I want so badly to end it today, but I don’t want to give him the satisfaction of saying “See, she was nuts!”. I don’t want him to have any of the stuff I worked so hard for over the past 8 years, and I don’t want him to have my puppies. He deserves nothing.
People like him don’t deserve to live, so why is it that what goes around never comes around to them? Why do they always ride off into the sunset with some new woman laughing and enjoying life? I don’t get it. Why don’t they all drop dead of heart attacks, get hit by a bus a stray bullit?
Why are good people like me always left to pik up the broken pieces? I don’t know if there is such a thing as a total recovery from something like this. The sad thing is that I still love him. How pathetic is that? Or maybe I’m still in love with what I thought we had. That’s got to be it.
Right now all I want to do is go to sleep and never wake up again. I can’t see spending one more day feeling like life isn’t worth living. For me it isn’t. I see no light at the end of the tunnel. There are no brighter days ahead.
I’ve made millions of dollars in my life. I’m a brilliant woman, yet I’m now here living in an 1100 square foot mobile home with a sociopath that promised me the world but took everything I have and everything I am away from me. He never feels bad, never ashamed for what he’s done, and never once has he ever admitted that anything is his fault.
He says I did it all myself. That I only have myself to blame. If I would just stop accusing him of cheating and turn a blind eye we’d be happy. “All I want is you baby!” he says. If you would just straighten up and act normal everything would be fine, but you have to ruin everything. You just can’t help yourself and you need help”.
It makes me want to take a baseball bat and smash his face in. How dare he take someone as good and kindhearted as I am and ruin my life. How dare he rob me of my dignity, my self respect, and my confidence. How dare he abuse me and watch me suffer in so much pain and laugh simply for his own entertainment.
God, are you out there? It’s me Bailey…
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 6:42pm
Rune says:
All: I just got online and started reading your post. Hang on . . .
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 6:52pm
Rune says:
All: Can you talk to me? I really, really understand. What’s wrong here is NOT YOU! In fact it’s your goodness and your ability that he locked onto.
I understand.
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 6:58pm
OxDrover says:
DEar All (BAiley)
Hang on and please don’t hurt yourself, he is not worth it and you are NOT ALONE, there are those of us here who have also suffered at the hands of these ANIMALS, and we too have felt despair.
What you are feeling is normal for someone who has been treated as you have been treated, and it is NOT your fault for how he treats you. You are still the same wonderful person you were before you met him, but he has cruelly used and inured you. YOU are still inside the wounded woman, and you can heal. Right now you are in a lot of pain, I hear the pain in your post.
Please do not harm yourself, to feel bad and depressed after what you have endured is normal. YOu wouldn’t be normal if you didn’t feel bad.
Don’t give up either! There is a way out, some way out.
It may mean that you must go to a shelter, but that is better than staying with a man who hurts you, demeans you, and being trapped. He wants you trapped, so that he has COMPLETE CONTROL, and that is what he has if you give up.
Don’t give him what he wants, don’t give him control. But don’t let him know that you intend to escape.
Get your important papers together and get your personal items, clothes etc. together so that you can leave quickly and silently and “disappear” where he cannot find you. Call the “human services” in your area, or the police or social services, or a domestic violence shelter, call someone and find an escape route. Even leaving with the clothes on your back is better than staying in bondage to this monster. I will keep you in my prayers, you are NOT alone, the people here on this blog are experienced in dealing with these monster, we have all been taken for a ride, used and abused. WE do GET IT, and will be here for you, to pray fo ryou and support you, but YOU are the one who must take action. And you CAN DO IT! You must be a strong person to have survived this far, if you weren’t strong you couldn’t have–take back that strength! Take back your power! Don’t let him win! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for you!
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 7:37pm
Rune says:
All (Bailey): You are in good company here. We know that he targeted you BECAUSE you are wonderful. Don’t let the sob win another day by letting him have any more control over you — and choose to live, just to spite his sorry ass! And to be able to share your wonderful self with the rest of us. We welcome you into our tribe!
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 7:47pm
Rune says:
Dear All (Bailey): I would love to talk with you. I know we can understand each other. Are you still online?
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 8:03pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Dear Bailey,
I once had a therapist tell me that if I wasn’t depressed I’d be crazy.
That’s true for you right now. Everything you feel is a reasonable response to your situation. The grief, the anger, the depression. Your emotional system is working, and that’s the most important thing right now. It’s going to save your life.
It sounds like he has no idea that you’ve got the gumption to get out of there, so channel your anger into quietly planning your escape. Think about what you’d take with you, if you knew you weren’t coming back.
I know you’ve lost a lot, but you haven’t lost yourself. You may not know what that means right now, but you will. There’s strength and will to survive that he hasn’t touched. You’re getting a whiff of it when you’re tempted to hit him with the baseball bat.
You’re not going to do that because you don’t want him to ruin the rest of your life.
You are not going to let him destroy you. That’s why you came here. We’ve all been through what you’re going through now. The first step is to get him out of your life.
Kathy
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 8:41pm
Rune says:
Absolutely. You have ALL to GAIN! And you’ve found us — we’re totally on your side.
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 8:46pm
Matt says:
AllPainNoGain:
You’re in the right place. You have lots of company. We have all been so beaten down that ending it all was preferable to surviving one more day in the hell that had become our lives.
I now see that that moment is our survival system kicking in. My freedom began when I finally started to get mad and turned my anger on him instead of myself. Focusing on your anger will give you the strength to do what you have to do.
Tuesday, 3 February 2009 @ 9:29pm
AllPainNoGain says:
Dear Rune, Matt, Kathy, OxDrover:
Thank you so much for your kind words and your support. I’m sure you know how much it means to me. I wish I had been able to check the posts ealier. I don’t know if there’s a way for us to share email or phone info, but I’d really like to be able to talk to anyone here.
Reading your replies brought me to tears. It’s like feeling as though you’re the only one left in the world then finding life. I’m trying so hard to find the strength inside myself to go. It seems like every time I turn around there’s a brick wall staring me in the face.
I keep asking why. Why is it that nothing is working out for me? Why would someone treat another human being the way my husband treats me. My logical mind tells me that it isn’t me and that I am a wonderful, kind, and loving person that deserves to be treated the same as I treat him, but my heart is asking what is it about me that makes him want to cheat, lie, and degrade me every chance he gets.
I spend every day by myself feeling locked away from the world. I’m told on a daily basis how pathetic I am and that everyone knows I’m crazy. It’s the hot and cold jeckyl and hydeness that screws me up so bad. He can be so loving and sweet at times. I fall for it every time. Am I crazy and pathetic? I know I’m an idiot to have ever thought that with enough love and care he could change.
Although I feel like I need to spew all of this, I don’t want to bore you guys or make you sick hearing it all. This is why I have no friends. No one understands what I’m going through. They just don’t get it. People have told me just to leave. It’s not that easy.
I’m so grateful to have found this site and have you all respond the way you have. Thank you so much!
Again, I would really love to have someone to talk to that has been where I’m at now. It would mean a lot to me.
Sincerely,
Bailey
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 1:07am
Rune says:
NoPainAllGain: Are you there?
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 1:56am
Rune says:
I do understand.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 1:57am
AllPainNoGain says:
I’m here. Just reading all the posts.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:09am
AllPainNoGain says:
Darnit. I’m sorry I missed you Rune. I figured everyone had gone to bed.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:12am
flyspeck says:
Oh wow Bailey.
Been there. Still am there to a point. I went on a rampage and destroyed everything in my home so he couldn’t have it.
I’ve planned on mutilating him and then blowing my own brains out so I wouldn’t have to go to prison.
I don’t know if there is any way to talk to you in person…….
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:14am
AllPainNoGain says:
I’m there Flyspeck. I think those thoughts every day. I haven’t destroyed anything… really. But I’ve become so bitter that I do as many nasty things I can think of to him when I can.
I’m in Washington State. Where are you? Maybe we can connect by phone? I don’t know how it works on here. How do we get in contact with eachother personally without exposing our information to the world?
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:18am
flyspeck says:
I’m in Detroit.
my old email is a start. flyspeck40@yahoo.com
they can spam me to death there, lol, I only check it once every three months anymore since the S.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:22am
AllPainNoGain says:
Would you like to talk by phone? If so, when? I’m open.
I’ll shoot you an email right now so you have my address.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:25am
flyspeck says:
Yep, whatever keeps you sane. I have a cell so it won’t cost you a dime.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:27am
AllPainNoGain says:
K, just sent one off to you.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:30am
Is opn says:
AllPainNoGain. Hello. I understand what you are going through. You are a very important person and you do not deserve any of this stuff. There are many caring people here that did not desrve the treatment including myself that we have received from an S/P/N. No one in the world should ever be mistreated , to feel small. You are a good person. This person with you apparently does not have a connscience, does not respect himslf and has a low selfesteem. IT is not you. He puts you down to get over on you to Win. To inflate his own ego. If he makes you feel bad he is winning.
That is not LOVE, no matter how much you want it to be. It is abuse!!! I have been through it and initially believed it was me provoking this behavior in him. It is not me nor it is not you. I am so sorry that you are going through this. You do have friends, we are here. I was asleep and happen to wake and just thought I would check in here. As I have found a new friend. Hang in there please. There is hope. Life is special
and you are an important person and you are loved by God. And many here care for you. We have been through this too. I locked this abusive creature in my own life out of the house 9 months ago. I always thought it was me, something was wrong with me provoking him. These are sick men that cannot love or have emotion, it is about winning, it is not about you. Hang in there sweetie. Your friend
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 2:56am
Rune says:
All/Bailey: We understand, because we had to go through this ourselves. We support each other, because we’ve found that so many people, even professionals in mental health, just don’t understand the way we do, those of us who have lived through this.
Whatever you have to do to protect yourself, do it. And step away. Don’t risk his lies, just get away. You can sort things out later if you just step away. While he is nearby, he can lie, distort the truth to other people, and distort the truth even to you.
To be able to think clearly, to start rebuilding your life, you need to get away. Big, big hugs to you while you are going through this.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 3:02am
Is opn says:
Rune: I agree with what you have said.
Bailey: If you are feeling suicidal you need to call a suicide help line now! But never feel as if no one cares many do. And you are not alone! If you need to get out as soon as you can, there are shelters for women to go to in many areas. You will be safe there. I have gone to one before to break away from the violence and abuse.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 3:19am
Rune says:
Thank you, Is Opn: First of all — get safe! You can sort out everything else later.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 3:26am
Is opn says:
I have posted a site of shelters for abused women in all of the United States.
http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Pe.....ed_States/
If you cannot link to it type it into your browser or google Find abuse shelters for women with your state.
You are not alone and no one deserves this treatment.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 3:31am
Rune says:
All: Iit doesn’t matter whether it’s physical violence — NO ONE deserves this treatment. Get safe. Your life can start moving forward from that place. Know that we are all behind you, cheering you on.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 3:33am
Is opn says:
The National Hopeline Network provides access to trained telephone counselors, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
1-800-784-2433.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 3:57am
AllPainNoGain says:
Dear OPN and Rune: Thank you all. I’m okay. I made it through yesterday thanks to you guys and reading many of the posts on this site. It doesn’t make it easier knowing my husband is an egomaniacle, sociopathis narissist, but it does help hearing from many of you that have made it out.
I realize I have to come up with a game plan and make a move. I have to if I want to survive this… and I do.
You know, I was telling flyspeck about this video on you tube. It makes me think about how I feel here, then how I felt when I found all of you who were so much like me in many ways. At least going through the same types of things with our S, Ps and Ns.
I was a happy go lucky girl that loved to dance and smile. Kind of silly and quirky, but then I was laughed at and told I was stupid, mentally ill and even insane. I still am told that every day. No one gets me or what I’m going through and it’s been very lonely. I look like a fool to everyone.
Then one day I found this site, the gates opened and there were all these people like me. We all look different. All different ages, sexes and races, but we all have so much in common and we don’t have to feel like we’re the only ones on earth going through this anymore.
Watch the video and see what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYlAwvz8uwc
Bailey
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 8:58pm
Rune says:
All Bailey: A big, warm welcoming hug to you. I know we need you here. So glad to read the energy in your voice. Figure out that game plan, and do it soon. You don’t have any more time to waste.
Like you, I lost more than I can even count, but I got away with my life, and I trust I’ll learn to live in joy again.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 9:06pm
AllPainNoGain says:
Thank you Rune. I wish it was as easy for us to move on and find joy as it is the S/P/N. Thanks to this site I realize that there is absolutely NO HOPE anymore for this relationship to work out. He’s never going to change. That was a HUGE pill to swallow because I always had hope that somehow, some way he’ll figure things out and realize what he’s doing. I thought he’d realize I was a wonderful wife and that I deserved to be treated with loving kindness as I do him, and that he should be faithful to me as I am him.
Ugh, with tears and the deepest of pain, I know it’s just not going to happen now. I didn’t want to face it. It makes me cry writing this. My heart aches so much. It’s like being told you’re going to die and there’s no cure for what you have. Then I feel like I want to still hold on and be with him until I have to go. It’s a double edged sword. The pain of being with them is sometimes less than the pain you feel just thinking about being without them.
I know this sounds sick, but I keep hoping he’ll die in a car accident on the way to or from work just so I don’t have to suffer the pain of leaving him. I think it was OxDrover who was talking about losing her husband to death, then her son because he is a psychopath. She said it was much harder losing her son. When they die we have no choice. If God could just put us both out of our misery…. I don’t think I’m asking for anything too bad am I?
I don’t think God wants anyone to go through what we’ve all been through. We weren’t put here to be tortured and tormented were we? So I don’t think it’s too much to ask that he drops dead in some way. I don’t even mean that to be mean.
Anyway, thank you all.
Bailey
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 9:34pm
Matt says:
AllPainNoGain:
We all know what it’s like to feel like we’ve exhausted the patience of our friends. I discussed that in my first post in December “Criminal Defense Attorney Falls for Sociopath.” In particular I said “I fully expect to crawl of miles of glass on my bare stomach before most of my friends will talk to me again.”
You’re in the right place. Nobody’s patience here will be exhausted by your venting. We have all walked many, many, many miles in your shoes.
One thing that I realized when I had to drive the sociopath out of my life - “to get rid of a sociopath, become a sociopath.” Turn off every feeling you have toward this parasite. The guilt. The love. All of it. You have to focus solely on you and your needs alone.
You won’t want to live by that standard forever. But, it will help you to get focused on what you’ve got to do for you and solely you.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 9:37pm
shabbychic2 says:
AllPainNoGain: Glad to see you came back, I was worried about you! Wonderful people on this site, I have learned so much. I feel just as you do… I just want to hold on to him… I don’t know why… I usually do anything to avoid pain or anxiety, it is actually discussed in the book that this thread is about.
So, I am doing a lot of reading tonight. I don’t post too much, sometimes it can take me 20 minutes to write 1 paragraph, it’s exhausting! LOL!
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 10:46pm
shabbychic2 says:
I watched the video and it is so cute when the little girl peers through gate and then is so happy to see others like her! I haven’t really told anyone else about what’s been happening except my friends on this site, it can feel very isolating. My sister already yells at me about him, and she only knows 10% of it…
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:08pm
AllPainNoGain says:
Hi Matt, and thank you for your post. I’ve really thought about becoming the sociopath. Not actually thinking or saying that, but that I need to turn everything off and become hard and cold. It seems like the only way to get through all of it.
It’s so not in my nature to be that way. I’m nurturing by nature. I’m loving, caring, and kind by nature, so doing this feels almost impossible for me. It’s getting around the fact that I love him and crave to be loved back.
Going without is excrusiatingly painful to me. He says I’m needy, but I’m only needy now to him because he doesn’t want ME, but someone else. I’m just a liability and an expense to him and it makes him mad and treat me like garbage. Duh!! I keep telling myself to pull my head out of my butt and move on.
I don’t know about you, but as I’ve said in my previous posts, the hot and cold jeckyl and hydeness is so hard to deal with. He can be so incredibly loving and kind sometimes. I’m smart enough to know that it’s just a smoke screen, but as stupid as it sounds, I take what I can get from him because I’m so lonely and miss him (the guy that he use to be), so much.
I know, I know! He was NEVER really that person. He was that way to get what he wanted. I miss the way he use to make me feel when I was with him. I say to myself every day that I’m going to take care of myself and do what makes me happy, but I don’t even know what that would be anymore.
All I’ve known in the way of happiness for the past 6 years was him. I could have been happy in a shack deep in Alaska with no one else around and been happy for the rest of my life. Maybe it would work then. LOL, I can imagine what you’re thinking reading that, but that’s my heart talking again.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:08pm
AllPainNoGain says:
Hi shabbychic2! I’m glad you watched the video. Thank you for your kindness. So why do we hold on? It’s the old stuff we hold onto for dear life. Those memories are all I feel I have left… that and the hope that they will change. Now after reading about sociopaths I realize there is none.
God I want to scream sometimes. You would think that if you love and nurture a damaged soul, that you could somehow, with your strength and diligence, change and heal them. Too bad it’s not that way. We’ve become broken ourselves in the process of trying to fix them.
This site and everyone on it has helped me a lot, but I still can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel. I just need a glimmer of hope right now.
Bailey
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear All,
You have EVERYTHING TO GAIN, and nothing but pain to lose! I know it will be hard, and you will be unsusre sometimes, but you are stronger than you know and when you get away from the pain long enough to clear your head, to take care of YOU, the pain will start to leave and one day you will realize THE PAIN IS GONE and you will laugh again, smile again, and be happy again.
It is so frustrating to realize “how wonderful it could be if he would just ______________” (fill in the blank) but, he will NEVER love you because he CAN’T LOVE ANYONE. He can only use you like a piece of toilet paper and toss you away, and then complain because you stink.
It isn’t you that stinks, it is his chit that stinks!
There is a thread here about how to get ready to leave and how to plan. Whatever you do, don’t let him know what you plan to do, play your cards close to your chest because he may become really violent if he thinks you are about to escape.
I’m so glad you are doing better today. I know how you wish he would die, there are so many times I wished my son would die. I wished he was the one dead and not the girl he killed in cold blood. Her mother had people gathering around her to support her for theloss of her child. I lost my child too, but no one was there to support me. I didn’t blame myself for his crime but I was still ashamed that MY son was a murder.
I jusst wished I could close the coffin lid on him an dput him in the ground and that people would hold me and tell me how sorry they were for the loss of my son. It has taken me almost 20 years since that girl’s death to come to grips with it and to “truly” bury him…and 20 years of dysfunctional grief in those long two decades.
We don’t have a choice in how it works out, and I don’t think God wants us to suffer either, but at the same time, WE are the ones who have to get ourselves away from the MONSTERS that the psychopaths are…even if we love them as much as our own lives, or more. They have given themselves up to EVIL—that is the only word that fits. (((hugs))) and God bless you! Oxy
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:22pm
Is opn says:
AllPainNoGain, I am glad to see you back here.
I can relate to what you say about,That was a HUGE pill to swallow because I always had hope that somehow, some way he’ll figure things out and realize what he’s doing.
The very hardest part, looking back for me was realizing what the S/ was actually doing, realizing it was a game, that he did not care at all. That was the toughest for me. It was a crushing blow. It rocked my world and the world I thought I had been living in was not my world. It was a world in my life created by a S/P who has no capacity to love no matter what I say or do. After the realization and some time it was easier for me to move on, though very painful. It was time to plan my future. Confusion, how do I do that, who can I talk to, everyone I know says, “kick him to the curb”. Ok how do I do that and pull my life together after being told I am crazy, I need help, you cannot do anything right. Hearing these words daily brought self doubt and thinking I cannot move on past this abuse.
I had to rise above those words. I could do it. I will make a plan and I will set goals. Until he is gone from the house I will limit any run ins with him to stop the degrading, and focus on the plan and goals to break free. I will be busy when around him silently planning and deciding my future. I will be ok and much better in the longrun. If I had to listen to the words before he was gone I would nod as if I acknowledged what he said, but now I knew his words were lies, deceit, and there was not love for me. And I never ever ever let on it was going to over and done. You cannot trust how someone like this may react. You need to be safe until you are out of reach with someone like this. There is no reasoning with someone like this.
Bailey what I am saying is be careful. Don’t doubt who you are and your self worth. You are important and special, we all are and we all have the same maker. And we have been through this abuse in many different circumstances. The bottom line is abuse. No one deserves this.
This is a great support group, there are many here that you can lean on and they will be here for you. I wish I had found this place years ago, so I could understand and realize what this was going on in my life. But I have found it and feel so much better being able to relate to others, that care, and can explain this by them having gone through this.
Thank you for the video. I will watch it a few times. We all need to continue the dance even when we are weary, the music still plays and can be healing.
Many years ago I worked at a mega church. The friends I came to know gave me this small magnet, that is part of the source I had to remain hopeful, this will work out. It sits here next to me on my desk and has brought me many tears and joy.
“I know the plans I have for you…..
to give you a future and a Hope.”
Jeremiah 29:11
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:41pm
shabbychic2 says:
AllPain: Yes! There is hope! I stayed with one guy for 14 years waiting for him to change and trying to “help” and “fix” him, and when he left I was curled up in a little ball crying… because I didn’t like myself! You’re right, we’re the ones that get broken. But I like myself now… and that is what is helping me (that and this site). Maybe I can turn that strength around and use it on me. I’m not going to let 1 jerk beat me down — there! I said it!
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:45pm
Rune says:
All, SC2, Oxy: We share a special understanding of grief here: grief that is unacknowledged by society. Somewhere I’ve seen a link that discusses this, but Oxy you said it well. You lost a son, but no one could see what you were going through. We’ve all had such losses, but our trauma is invisible to those around us.
I keep thinking that we are being offered a special opportunity to share our insights and wisdom to help others — which is certainly what we do as we welcome a new person into our safe haven.
But what about all the others, those without internet access, those who can’t do the research that brought us here, even those who work at domestic violence shelters who have no clue about what we know all too well.
Oxy, my story isn’t as dramatic as yours, but I also lost a son. Only recently have I had a name for the disorder that took my child.
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:46pm
Rune says:
All, SC2 & everyone: Are we wearing black & yellow tutus when we meet for the LF campout? Matt, any suggestions?
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:47pm
shabbychic2 says:
Rune: what a scream! maybe we could wear tiara’s too!
Wednesday, 4 February 2009 @ 11:51pm
Is opn says:
Rune: I am sorry for your loss.
I value your wisdom and spiritual insights moderating this blog.
I really believe it is grief that I was having when I ended a relationshp with abuse and being taken advantage of.
I questioned if it was grief only because of having had grief with my loss of a child and a miscarriage before that. It felt very similar. Grief has many symptoms, these were kind of the same feelings.
After ending a prior 20 something year marriage I did not have grief to this degree even though it was there but not as intense.
Black and yellow tutus? Oh my time to cut the sweets out to wear a tutu. The bees will like us and think we are one of them, but I am willing.
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 12:03am
Is opn says:
AllPainNoGain One more thought that may be something to think about. Watch your computer and any access he may have to it, change the password, and don’t let him find it and never ever use your real name.
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 12:17am
eliza says:
I would like for us to wear floppy hats if at all possible.
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 12:18am
Is opn says:
Uh, Uh.. my tutu needs to be about six inches longer so I can dance without worrying. LOL Or wear hip length hunting boots for the attire to compliment it, in black of course, shiny shiny black. LOL
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 12:35am
OxDrover says:
Tutus and hip length black boots? You guys are getting waaaay tooo kinkyyyyy for me! LOL ROTFLMAO
Rune, I think that “losing” a child the way we lost our sons is so painful because we weren’t able to go through the rituals that attend to the loss by death of a child or loved one. The isolation that I felt and the shame was so horrible. I didn’t understand it at the time when he was arrested for the murder. I so wanted to believe it wasn’t so, yet I knew in my heart it was.
The odd thing is that in all this I am now starting to quit focusing on them and what they did to me, and more on how I have lived my life. MY denial. MY dysfunctional thinking, and acting. My rationalizing of their behavior and rationalizing of my own behavior. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
As I understand more about it, more about the whys, I am realizing that the only changes I can make are in me and I better “get a move on and do it.” The more I understand about me, the more I am able to quit “blaming them” and accept my own responsibility and not continue to feel anger at them or blame them. Not that I am “blaming” myself (the victim) but that in a way, too, they are victims of their own genetics and environment, just as I am, but I have chosen to OVERCOME the poor conditioning and poor environment and piss-poor-protoplasm and take what I have left and make a life out of it.
I can’t change the past–either theirs or mine–but I can change MY FUTURE in chaning my reaction to it, in changing my thinking about it, and I can change my THINKING about the past. I don’t have to allow my thinking abot the past, or about them to keep me sad/mad/down forever.
I can ACCEPT that the past is what it is (or was) and that I don’t have to choose to let it ruin the rest of my life.
There were dreams and ambitions I had for my son, but I didn’t get those realized. Oh, well. Chit happens. Not my problem any more becasue I am changing my THINKING about what it means that I didn’t get what I wanted.
In truth, our IDEAS and our EXPECTATIONS are what we choose them to be.
A good way to look at it is, I think:
I had a dream. The dream did not come true. It is not the end of the world. I can be happy without that dream coming true.
As long as I keep thinking:
I had a dream. The dream did not come true. It IS the end of the world. I cannot be happy without that dream coming true. I will be miserable for the rest of my life.
I can never be happy as long as I subscribe to the latter way of THINKING.
By changiing my way of thinking I have not changed the past, only my REACTION to the past, which influences the FUTURE.
It has taken me a LONG TIME to get to this point, the point of realizing that my happiness does not depend on anything but my way of thinking about things. Now that I have THAT PART down, the rest is just up to me to set new goals, make new and possible dreams and get on with life. ONE day at a time.
I “buried” my son, I had a “private memorial service” for him, and he is gone, just as much as if his body died. HE is “gone.” But I am alive and I want to live and I’m going to live. And Grow!
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 1:14am
Is opn says:
OxDrover. The boots are to coverup, not kinky and are in with the colrs of the tutu. I am far from that. More of a Doris Day type myself and maybe a Lucy now and then without trying to be.
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 1:21am
Is opn says:
OxDrover: I can relate to feelings of guilt and shame in my own loss of my child. It was self inflicted but not intentional, after the circumstances were examined. What has touched me is anger, with the thought of them going against everything I had ever taught and tried to instill as life values of right and wrong. Then, some sort of understanding of this unspeakable nightmare to go on with. But what I also had the need to do was to warn others of what the potential situation, may be and this could be them, other parents and children. I have been doing so ongoing, it was a strength that I did not know I could bear to do. The knowledge I have gained may save someone else and I have heard many stories of how our own story may have saved them. A place a parent never plans to be.
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 1:38am
Rune says:
Oxy: Thank you for opening the words of your heart to me.
In some esoteric teachings, we are told that we can heal the generations, past and future, by our choices in the now.
You have given me gifts to help heal my own pain in your words. Thank you.
What size tutu do you wear? and do you want that with tiara and hip-waders?
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 2:29am
AllPainNoGain says:
Hi All!
Rune: I too am so sorry that you’ve had to endure all that you have in this lifetime. I wish I could give you a HUGE hug and let you know that people care. I think we all would if we could. So, second best is a HUGE mental hug. Although I’m not there, it is just as hearfelt as if I were.
OxyDrover:
That’s the key. Changing our thoughts. I wish it was as easy as it’s usually made out to be, but if we could do this, so many things would change in almost an instant. Believe me, I don’t know if any of you have seen The Secret, but I’ve been praciting the principals for 14 years. Yeah, it all worked great until I met HIM!!!! I don’t know what went wrong there.
Have any of you been to the tut.com web site? I’m not totally impressed with the site itself, but Mike Dooley is a pretty funny guy and teaches people how to live in the now. “Thoughts become things”. “What we think about we bring about”. Now I typically believe this, but if it were totally true my husband would be lying in bed right now all smelly and just about down to the bare bones. I know, Gross!!!
You guys might really like the daily emails. I love getting them. They aren’t like any others I’ve read. Sometimes they’re so right on that it’s as if they know me. What I mean is… sometimes the perfect thing will come to me when I need it most. It’s very uplifting.
Here’s a sample:
If you hold the thought, it begins to form.
If you speak the word, it draws ever near.
And if you walk the talk, heaven help the poor “Jones’,” because this is exactly how worlds are born, miracles are performed, and dreams come true.
The Universe
It’s free to sign up if anyone is interested.
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 2:47am
Rune says:
Hello All: You’re back and you’re “bad”! I think you’d look great in a yellow or black tutu! (Keep reading posts, if you don’t know what I’m talking about!)
I do Reiki work — energetic healing. The “engineering” side of my brain thought that was silly, but the Universe has provided too many examples for my left brain to ignore.
Yes I believe our thoughts are tools for manifestation. And if you doubt that, then look at how your words yesterday brought you the full force of a great and wonderful community to energize you into a new place in your life.
So, being practical . . . what this-n-thats could keep you from stepping away and starting over?
And I really, really want to have you around to be my friend and mentor and student as we shift hats while we all learn and grow. (I’ll bet the whole LF community is saying the same thing.)
If we’re on this website, assume we’ve been granted “graduate student” status in life. And we all need each other in our study groups to pass the tests to be able to graduate.
Glad you’re back. I think you’ve got an emotional equivalent of a “lady’s gun” in your left boot, and possibly a poisoned hat-pin stuck in your hairdo.
Let’s work on getting you out of the trailer and far enough away that you don’t have immediate security issues. Then we can strategize a real recovery — like gangbusters, eh?
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 3:16am
OxDrover says:
Dear Rune,
I think sometime we must endure a painful lesson, so that we can “be there” to comfort someone else in their time of need.
So many times when I was in need of comfort and support, someone would materialize almost out of thin air for that day or that hour to give me the support and comfort I needed, then just as quickly move on out of my life, but for that moment, that hour, they were there.
Maybe it was just a kind word of empathy, or a touch on my shoulder, but it MEANT THE WORLD TO ME AT THAT MOMENT.
“Entertaining angels unawares” as it were.
Just as we have those “angels” come to us, we in turn, must BE those angels for others. I am glad that my sharing with you about the loss of my son helped you to endure the loss of your son with less pain, and with knowing that you are not the only one who has suffered such loss.
Right after my son was arrested for murder, I was not working and had decided to take some time off from work because I was a freaking BASKET CASE. I had locked myself inside my house for three months, seen no one but my family, and was suffering an INTENSE GRIEF REACTION.
A girl I went to school with kept calling me trying to get me to come to work for her at an inpatient psych hospital. Nurses were in short supply and she was DESPERATE. She hounded me day and night. Offered me any hours I wanted, just about any salary etc. and even let me define which jobs I wanted there.
I eventually took the job “part time” and did intake interviews for the parents and psychopathic adolescents they were admitting because they were so out of control.
As I sat listening to these parents in their suffering, my heart melted. Of course I could not tell them about my own suffering, but I did greatly empathize with these parents, and I REALIZED I WAS NOT ALONE IN MY SUFFERING FOR MY SON’S CRIMES. It was THERAPY for me! I had never worked in psych before, as I had been mostly medical or administrative, but that job was SENT BY GOD TO COMFORT ME. I worked there a year and a half and during that time was witness to such pain and confusion in the parents of these kids, and saw with my own eyes the glee with which these kids hurt others and enjoyed it. I saw that MY SON wasn’t the “worst of the lot.” (not much consolation but some anyway at the time).
I didn’t continue to heal after that, but it did comfort me at the time, I kept on with the MALIGNANT AND UNREALISTIC HOPE that somehow my son would “reform”—so I didn’t get the ENTIRE LESSON and had to repeat the class a few more times. At the time, though, it was supportive of me and I am so glad that my friend insisted I take the job.
After my step son was severely brain damaged, I realized then that the years I worked in brain and spinal cord rehabilitation was “God’s way of preparing me for dealing with my step son” so I can look back in retrospect and see how many opportunities I have had to learn and get support and to grow, for a trial that might not happen for years down the line. But that knowledge and experience previously allowed me to get through the next trial, to go over the next hurdle with more ease.
Just as we prepare for a race by running, and we prepare for hard work by exercising, we learn, strengthen ourselves and grow by our emotionally and physically overcoming problems.
BTW a size 16 Tutu, a size 8 1/2 hip wadder with a 30 inch inseam, a tasteful little cubic zirconium crown, and a push up bra with a tube top sounds just right for me! A nicely tooled John Brown holster for a .38 would be the perfect accessory! (((hugs))))
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 11:07am
Is opn says:
Resource Links for Domestic Abuse and Domestic Violence
Symptoms of Abuse Link http://www.youareatarget.com/s....._a_Partner
Resources: Symptoms Indicators of Abusive Relationships
http://www.aardvarc.org/dv/longterm.shtml
Domestic Safety Plan To Get Out
http://www.aardvarc.org/dv/plan.shtml
Links for Domestic Abuse and Domestic Violence
Thursday, 5 February 2009 @ 11:19am
usedabused says:
Scary Question
My S (who was seeing me and another woman until we gals got to talking) has not been heard from since we put it together and gave him the boot. She is afraid that his MO would be to call up screaming at one of us and is afraid that the silence is preparation for something worse, even physical violence. Would that be a typical S reaction to being “outed” by the two most important women/victims in his life? Or, once they know the jig is up will he just go away? We’re in two different cities and he may be in one or the other, we don’t even know which one.
Tuesday, 31 March 2009 @ 2:39pm
learnthelesson says:
Usedabused - Usually they move on when the jig is up - they rarely wanna face the music. As long as you didnt do anything beyond calling his bluff, usually they fade away. Or retreat until they think you are weak and or forgiving type… In any case, keep your guard up… if you feel you did something to seriously warrant him to retaliate in any way - maybe you can just have a restraining order put in place. But typically they just move on!
Tuesday, 31 March 2009 @ 8:57pm
usedabused says:
Learnthelesson -
Thanks! I’ve been off the site for awhile doing the “recommended reading”, did not even see your reply, I’m sorry. Now I gottanother problem, the other gal. He never bothered me, and she met someone she was happy with. Yesterday she called in a panic that he was texting her like crazy, really freaked. Then she did not return a call and now her message is gone. Has not answered my call or text.
I was so into this book that I read it today during work hours, wanting to send it to her. Now I’m afraid, if he did somehow woo her back, and I send it even anonymously, could get her in trouble. She looked at this site but told me she did not need it, was over it. There’s no way that can be, they went back further than we did.
I’m concerned for her, she could really use this book, but certainly don’t want to start up with him if he’s going to leave me alone and there’s nothing I can do for her anyway. When he goes nuts on her again, she’ll leave and call me. If she left the new guy, he might forward it to her in anger just to cause trouble. Maybe I should wait to hear from her before sending?
Will check back for comments but then I’ll be off line for a day.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 4:26pm
usedabused says:
PS. All I did was dump him, without provocation, I was planning it (my escape). Just pretended everything was fine, met him at the appointed spot but brought a male friend with LE background and got some property back. He tried to woo me back, but my friend jumped in. His “job” was to do whatever was necessary not to let the S talk me out of it and he performed it well. S did not return his calls right after, and he never called another time. That’s what the first post was about. Did embarrass him, he had friends with him too he was probably bragging to about how I’d do anything for him. Oh well. He accused me of “playing him”. Yep, for 2 weeks, after he played me for years.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 4:38pm
learnthelesson says:
Dear Usedabused,
I suggest you sit tight. Quietly. It is not your job to “counsel” her or “save” her. She is a grown woman. In fact she told you she does not need this sight and was over him. True or false. She is her own person.
Please stay away from all that drama. If she contacts you again, let it go to voicemail and see exactly what she has to say. Dont go back, you have come so far. She is her own person and not your responsibility. If she lets herself get wooed back - that back wont do her any good.
If you feel the need to refer the book to her. Wait until you are certain she is not in contact with him. Dont get caught up in playing with him, her or anyone associated with him.
You need to take care of one person. Yourself! Good luck!
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 4:47pm
learnthelesson says:
Usedabused…typo… If she lets herself get wooed back - that BOOK wont do her any good.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 4:52pm
Matt says:
Usedabused:
I have wanted to send copies of “Without Conscience”, anonymously to S’s family. Then I realized that he could very well track it back to me. More to the point, I realized that they are going to have to save themselves. We’ve all got full plates trying to recover from these creatures without trying to save somebody else.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 5:15pm
learnthelesson says:
Unfortunately, I am able to pick a number from 1-12 below to identify the man I was with. But hopefully my children and so many others will be aware of numbers 1-12 so they may protect themselves and know the red flags in advance…
The Dirty Dozen-Characteristics of a Psychopath:
1. The ‘Jekyll/Hyde’ Psychopath comes on strong, sweeps us off our feet. Appearing to be our ’soulmate’, he falsely mirrors our values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes and habits. He mimics our ambition, integrity, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. This control freak wants us dependent on him. He portrays false integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his ‘idealization’ of us phase. It never lasts as Jekyll turns into Hyde. He blames others. His victims are objectified and disposable. He convincingly mimics human emotions. His lack of conscience is shocking, incomprehensible and emotionally painful to us. We remember his odd reaction to situations. We end the relationship
and salvage what we can, or we are quickly discarded as he cultivates a “new perfect soulmate”. He will have numerous relationships. He may drop verbal clues about his true character early in the relationship, but we fail to grasp its meaning. Later, when the psychopath eventually emerges, we remember his early warning. His targets suffer emotional and financial devastation and our emotional recovery is lengthy. Defense Strategy: Abandon your efforts to help or cure him. His true mask
exposed, your ’soulmate’ is gone forever. Accept the reality. Seek therapy. Join a support group to know you are not alone. Don’t take the bait when he blames or lies. They fool even trained professionals. Do not be vulnerable or naive. Prepare for a nasty divorce. Accept no abuse. Learn about mental diseases and disorders.
2. The Female Psychopath: Using her false mask, this charming “Southern Belle” schemer appears helpless or needy, pitiful, inept or emotionally unable to cope. Even total strangers give her things she gratefully accepts. Falsely claiming to be the victim, this passive parasite lures and abuses the normal protector/provider instincts in her male target. When her mask comes off she is cunning, ruthless,
predatory, and loveless. Defense Strategy: She’ll try to hook and reel you in. Take the hook out of your lip. Don’t make her emotional neediness your problem. This black hole of need can never be filled. Understand the mask of helplessness is not the “real her”. If she won’t give reasonable answers to reasonable questions turn and run. Beware and remember “…deadlier than the male.” Realize she uses sexuality as a lure. Avoid financial or emotional involvement.
3. ‘Liar Liar’ He will lie for no reason. He will skilfully twists our words, evade questions, and omit important facts in his ever-changing, self-serving goals. “Hang ‘em high” he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite claims high morals then proceeds to exploit, manipulate and abuse others. His lies and projection are emotionally cruel. He will accuse you of being crazy. Defense Strategy: Quietly verify what he says. The grain of truth he drops occasionally is deceptive manipulation. Do not try to negotiate or bargain. Head for the door when
things don’t add up. Learn about projection.
4. The Thrll Seeker never learns from his past follies. Easily bored, his hunt for new thrills escalates. His reckless disregard for others endangers them. Poor impulse control, bad judgment, criminal activity and substance abuse are common. Defense Strategy: Don’t get involved. Use your good judgment. Say No. Don’t take the bait of his rage or manipulation. Don’t bail him out.
5. The Malevolent Psychopath is now fully unmasked. We remember when his eyes were vacant, cold and predatory. This wife-beater, murderer, serial killer, stalker, rapist, fighter, harasser, terrorist has a ‘chip-on-his-shoulder’ attitude. His short fuse erupts into rages. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment. He imagines rejection and rejects first to ‘get it over with’. He will harass to get your
reaction and try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. He has no remorse, no conscience and no regard for the rights of others. This coward sadistically picks on the vulnerable, women, children and the elderly. Defies probation or the courts. He has bad judgment. He never learns his lesson and and repeats past actions to his own detriment. The media loves stories about his heinous acts. Defense Strategy: Act to protect yourself physically, financially and emotionally. Don’t tip your hand that you’re leaving. Don’t take the bait
of his over-reactions. Be aware of the services of the police, law and shelters.
6. The Arrogant Psychopath Displays his false mask and his haughty strut as he demands centre stage. He seeks envy, attention even our fear and hatred. He can never get enough. Fame or infamy are the same to him if he can acquire notoriety. Reacts disproportionately to situations. He boastfully displays his possessions to garner attention. Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Demand equal
treatment. Deny him the attention he demands. Learn about Malignant Narcissism
7. The Charismatic Leader manipulates others to obtain status, control,
compliance, money, attention. His effective brainwashing tactics often found in religious cults or political venues. He targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak. He falsely portrays himself to be virtuous, the perfect father, husband, spiritual leader, advisor, mentor, friend. Defense Strategy: Avoid him. Know his payoff is attention, money or abusing us. Be suspicious of excessive charisma
emanating from others. Pay attention when your gut instinct tells you to avoid him.
8. The Promiscuous Psychopath (male or female). Pornography,
hypersexuality, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anyone, young, old, male/female are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for ’sado-maso’ sexuality. Easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. The internet a favourite hunting ground. However, another type exists, the one who withholds sex or affection. Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own. Be aware of their frequent presence on the internet.
9. The Nomadic Parasite has a lack of long-term goals. With unrealistic
expectations, he is aimless and lacking commitment, focus or direction.
He aggressively pursues opportunistic predatory use of others. Defense strategy: Be aware of their red flags. Don’t bail him out. Know his ability to appear helpless, pitiful, confused and needing our assistance.
10. Conman/Manipulator pits people against each other. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others as he sets us up to take the fall while he enjoys watching the performance he orchestrates. Keeps his allies and targets separate to avoid exposure. Verbally skilled at twisting our words, this charmer usually gets his way. Applying ‘fear’ selling tactics, this scam artist crafts situations to appear indispensable, ready to solve our problems. Money and conning others are his objective. He will agree to anything then turn around and do the opposite. He will
accuse you of breaking the contract. Legal, custody agreements and normal social or personal protocol mean nothing to him. Enjoys orchestrating police/legal action and playing the role of the ‘poor me’ victim. Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard the agreement. Know the ‘nature of the beast’. Facing consequences is his best lesson. Avoid involvement. Be self-sufficient. Avoid any “Trust-Me” get-rich-quick sales pitch. Learn how swindlers and scam artists operate.
11. The Professional Psychopath is often successful and intelligent in his field. He can masterfully fake his abilities and credentials. He exploits others, and must be in absolute control. He relies on his intellectual manipulation, and charisma. His eye on the boardroom, he backstabs his way to high position. He ruthlessly abuses his power. His bad judgment has adverse affects on many levels of society. He places others in problem or failure situations. This professional bully has no social
conscience, and is often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own objective but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don’t get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation.
12. The Psychopath Child displays signs as early as age 3. This juvenile delinquent shows early red flags of psychopathy including lying, fighting, stealing, bullying, bad judgment, cheating, cruelty to animals, vandalism, truancy, sexual activity, fire-setting, substance abuse, and running away from home. Many see him as ’sneaky’. Defense Strategy: Fix the problem, not the blame. Maintain domestic stability. Recognize signs in early childhood. Reinforce and reward positive behaviour. Seek therapy. Establish firm moral integrity practices and standards within the home.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 8:29pm
learnthelesson says:
Apologies for the lengthy post above. I copied and pasted it as best I could. I just felt it would be helpful to others to realize they are not alone, that these people exist out there. If we fall victim to them, the faster we recover and move on, the quicker we can protect ourselves and interact with good decent souls from what we have learned.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 8:35pm
shabbychic2 says:
LTL: Thanks for posting that. Regarding #1… he did drop verbal cues in the beginning regarding his true character, but of course I ignored them. Weird to see it in print.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 9:09pm
usedabused says:
LTL -
I was paranoid, she’s fine. Called me earlier, had just overslept. And she’s wondering if I’m talking to him because she can’t believe he has not even called me! This is the craziness he perpetrates. The reason I wanted to “save her” is that she saved me. If she had not called when she did, I would have seen him again (even though I was very suspicious already) and that one get-together could have ruined me. I’m on the brink financially and one more round of exploitation would have destroyed me, plus getting dumped again that was inevitable. I came out of it much stronger this way.
I assured her that as for me he knew the jig was up, and she’s the one with a new boyfriend. She’s not going back. I can send her the book but another gf suggested I get another copy to keep around as a reference in case he calls.
Your post has great information! The trick will be to avoid this in the future, be armed with knowledge.
But I will avoid any drama. If Jane calls, I’ll talk to her but I won’t spend another day worrying about her. She’s taking care of herself a whole lot better than would be expected, must have found a real Prince out there!
And Matt, I’ve had the same thought but did not do it for the same reason. Even a friend or too. Nope. Leave them alone.
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 9:25pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
learnEDthelesson…good list. There are probably more variations and combinations out there, but I’m not interested in finding them, or staying around to figure them out…LOL
The danger in taking the list to the schools will be the students “classifying” others.
Just went through a middle school drama “bff betrayal” with my daughter. I had been trying to show her her “friend” was a bit of a bully…controlling…and somewhat physically abusive (pushing, slapping…can’t keep her hands to herself).
Last weekend my daughter drew a boundary…wouldn’t agree to her “friend’s” plans…said, no, I don’t want to do that. (I was there and saw it…and the reaction on her “friends” face-mad). Well, the texts started rolling in, and it accelerated all week at school, with the usual “sides” enlisted…rumors, tales, insults, lies, etc.
My daughter said…”I thought she was my best friend…nobody listened to me like she did…I could tell her anything.” I asked: “And now she’s using things you told her against you?” My daughter said “Yes”.
My daughter is now re-thinking the friendship…and getting pity-play text messages from her “friend” about how the “friend” is tired of fighting. My daughter is hesitant to “forgive and forget”. She said…”All I told her was I wasn’t going to do something I didn’t want to do.”
Whichever way it goes, I think my daughter learned some valuable things.
ltl…you’ll have fun in school…there have to be some P’s…and some just…what did Oxy’s husband say, some on “fool’s hill” at that age.
Better earlier than later, I guess…
Thursday, 16 April 2009 @ 9:43pm
learnthelesson says:
Jim,
I thought the list was spot on. Reinforced the red flag procedure for me!
Same thing with my 14 year old recently, except it was an exclusion episode with some lying involved from a friend she had extended an invitation to join us at my other daughters bd party. When my middle one put it all together the night before - she came barreling in my room saying I want your permission to un-invite her! (Im at least glad she came to me with that one!)… after calming her down…and simply not knowing if it was a personality disorder or someone on “fools hill” that she was dealing with, I said it was okay for her to be expressing her feelings but not okay to be flying off the handle about it…because the other girl texted my daughter “do you still want me to come tomorrow?”… I said two wrongs dont make a right…you dont know all the details…how about you say…Im disappointed in the choice you made to not include me tonight and to be dishonest about it…but Im really tired of all the fighting tonight and am trying to be mature about it…but if this happens again I wont be willing to work it out. But yes, you are welcome to come tomorrow” (I was not sure what was going to happen!) Then I said to my daughter - now you know the choices she makes and the kind of “friend” she is - you have forgiven her once - but never forget…. There is a large group of girls, mostly siblings of older sisters who are “friendly” but I explained to her that because there are alot of them doesnt mean they are all her closest/best friends. I encouraged her to start to see each friend as individuals and notice how they are with her and in various situations and with others. And I encouraged her to share her trust and friendship with the ones that treat her well and respects her… Girls can be SO tough!
Jim, maybe your daughter can find a way to say she is tired of the fighting too and tell the other girl that she was surprised by her reaction because all she did was tell her she wasnt going to do something she didnt want to do. And that shes glad its behind them and they will now respect how eachother feels about things. When its someone on fools hill, I guess I encourage my daughter to forgive (once) but never forget…make a mental note and continue on peaceful ground… but I was happy to be there for my daughter in the sense that her reaction was spot on to stop change direction and end it completely. And I told her that is something to hold onto as an option when she feels violated or used/abused. But you are right Jim, its a fine line especially in middle school/highschool - so Im teaching them the rule to address it calmly, stand up for themselves, allow room for working it out ONLY ONCE with clear boundaries and if it continues - then stop and change direction.
With regard to the high school plan, we are discussing the possibility of a program and/ or literature for outgoing seniors… somehow tying in information about the truth and facts that anybody in their life can be a S/P/N/ASPD (a parent, a teacher, a coworker, a friend, etc)….and signs, symptoms, and tools to help both detect and avoid them in their lives. An awareness if you will, as they enter the real world. As well as offering places they can turn to for support and therapy. Something I really wish I had!
You are right, I have to believe early awareness is better than none at all.
Friday, 17 April 2009 @ 7:00am
learnthelesson says:
Usedabused - I read that you are away now for a day or so…and I also get the sense that you are really grounded with the stance you have taken with your ex.
Your situation is rather unique in that you are now friendly with the OW…something to be careful with…but you both seem to be supportive of eachother and that has to have additional healing benefits. Perhaps you can loan her the book and ask her to return it when she is finished.
As long as you are prepared for the unexpected…and know your boundaries and how you will handle any possible reuniting between them, then proceeding with a mutual understanding and trusting friendship with her can be beneficial to you. Just be careful…and remain usedandabusedNOMORE!
Friday, 17 April 2009 @ 7:09am
sabine says:
LTL - thanks for that posting. He was definitely the #1….
Monday, 20 April 2009 @ 11:08am
Tilly says:
I think ox drover is well and truly” healed “and has been for a long time. I hope you are not just another Narcissist at work studying the vulnerabilities of us “weaker” people and making a quid.
Like that self confessed psycopath that wrote a book on what its like to be a Narcissist.
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 4:20pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Tilly…LOL about Oxy…I think she’ll earn your trust…but glad you are being hypervigilant. It’s a place we all need for a while…wary and wise.
But have you heard about Oxy’s skillet? Quid don’t spend well in Arkansas.
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 4:47pm
OxDrover says:
Jim and Tilly,
My dears I am a loooong way from “healed” but I am at least on the POSITIVE side of the midline now….focused on ME and no longer on THEM. Fixing the parts about me that made me vulnerable. Life IS GOOD and so that’s a big improvement.
Learning and healing should be life time efforts, and I am more than OK with that! When we quit growing, we shrivel.
I do not view a single person here on LF as “weaker” than me, believe me on that….I too have been balled up in the fetal position, lying on the floor sucking my emotional “thumb” and wondering if I would make it through the night! I’m just a bit ahead of you on the journey, but the thing is that ALL OF US are STRONGER than we know when we are in pain. ALL of us can get to the positive side of the line between devestation and healing. I sincerely know that EVERY person he is just as strong as I am, just as determined, but I won’t accuse you all of being as STUBBORN as I am, or as hard headed. LOL (((Hugs))))
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 5:53pm
kindheart48 says:
Learn, very good description. First time i talked with the s he told me exactly what he was all about but i didn’t get it. In exact words he said “I can be a nightmare” and i thought , “oh he must have a bit of a temper. I remember asking him why his marriage had ended and he said verbatum”I just didn’t like her anymore” and i laid away all night thinking “he must have meant that differently, he must have meant that he didn’t love her anymore. I could hardly blink my eyes and intrigue took over. He would repeat also “I can resist anything but temptation” but nothing he ever said registered. When you have never met it before you sure as heck don’t know what it is. Now looking back he told me exactly what he was but also what i wanted to hear as well. A little bit of truth mixed in with tons of bullsh**. Im convinced now that my s deep down hates women (mysogynist) , is either bisexual , homosexual and probably prone to pedophilia. He showed no signs of any of this with me but i’ve watched and he doesn’t fool me anymore. They will use anything and anyone for their gratification , nauseating in need for attention. He really seems to be more animal than human . Who would have ever guessed these creatures exist, and what a life lesson. Love kindheart
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 @ 8:39pm
usedabused says:
LTL -
I just caught up on this thread, sorry. Loved your long 12 point post, my ex S fits a few of them. It does look like Jane and the S have reunited, I have not heard from her since Friday and she did not return a call on Monday. She did get the book, said she was reading it and liked it and was in love with her new bf.
Feel bad for her but I did my best. I sent her here, sent her the books, Hare and the Women book, have no guilt. I shared every opportunity with her to get educated and get help, but she said she was fine, over it. After 30 something years compared to my 4?
Maybe, maybe, she just wanted to move on. We were there for each other when we needed each other and she just did not want to talk about him anymore. NO, not likely, I’ll probably get a call from an abused women’s shelter in his city sometime in the next 6 months.
It’s not my problem anymore. I’ll always appreciate her confirming what I knew but did not want to know.
I just want this to all go away. Been reading the Christian Carter Book, on-line, “Catch a Man and Keep Him” and keeping in mind that I’m an easy target.
But the loneliness is getting to me. I have not been alone in 20 years! Went from one marriage (to a great guy — just did not work), we dated after the divorce until I met husband # 2, then the S, then S # 2 who lived with me but never really had my heart. Then back to S # 1.
I’ve only been alone for a month. Other gals are good at it, hang out together, do things, I’ve only made a stab at that here and there. I hang out with married couples mostly.
In your post: The internet a favourite hunting ground. However, another type exists, the one who withholds sex or affection (Yep, check that one).
Should something be done to alert the dating sites to these predators? Some of them seem to be really trying to give a good product, introductions, and would not want to be misused.
Just a thought.
Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 12:23am
Tilly says:
I don’t trust anyone except my youngest son who is 19 years old. Nor will I ever trust anyone else ever again. I consider myself incredibly lucky to have one person I can trust 100 % ! Coming from where I have come from, you would have to be a bloody idiot to trust. My youngest son is NOT a psychopath, the older two, (I just worked out from reading this site..)definitely ARE! They are 30 and 26 yrs old. They have abused me for most of their lives, especially the 30 year old. I had always blamed myself till today.
I am incapable of trusting anyone else ever again. I know that if I do I will die. I am not up to any more goes at trusting anyone. Period.
Thursday, 30 April 2009 @ 3:21am