Sociopath-proof in 2009
PDF Editor’s note: This is the first post by Lovefraud’s newest blog author, Kathleen Hawk. She previously posted many thoughtful comments under the screen name “khatalyst.”
Last year, 2008, was a year in which we faced the cost of sociopathy in our economy. Huge financial firms were destroyed or deeply damaged by their own corporate cultures. Their employees were encouraged to pursue personal gain, without concern about the messes they left behind or the damage they did to other people’s lives. The results are loss and suffering, even for people who had nothing to do with these companies.
It sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Sociopathy taken to a grand scale. But there are people and institutions that didn’t buy into the subprime mortgage debacle. There are people who turned down the opportunity to invest with Bernard Madoff. Likewise, there are people who don’t get involved with sociopaths. They don’t attract them, or if they do, they get rid of them before any damage is done.
This article is about my suggestions for New Years resolutions that will help make us like those people.
About 20 years ago, I was fortunate to attend a week-long training at Brain Technologies, a consulting firm founded by the authors of Strategy of the Dolphin.* This book – written for business managers but also useful for people wanting to better manage their own lives – divides the world into sharks and carps. Both act out their addictions. Sharks are addicted to winning. Carps are addicted to being loved.
There was a third type of character in the “pool.” That was the dolphin. The dolphin learned in action, adapting its behavior to what was required at any given moment. If threatened, it might act like a shark. At more comfortable times, it might act like a carp. One of my favorite dolphin strategies described in the book is “tit for tat.” That is, if a shark takes a bite out of a dolphin, the dolphin takes an equivalent bite out of the shark. Not to escalate the fight, but just let the shark know that it was not dealing with a carp.
You’ll notice the dolphin doesn’t cringe and say, “Please don’t bite me.” It doesn’t pat the shark on the head and say, “You must have had a difficult childhood and you clearly need more love.” It absolutely doesn’t lie down and say, “I can see you’re hungry, and I can spare a part or two.” What it does is communicate in concrete terms that a dolphin lunch is going to be very, very expensive for the shark.
Which brings me to the New Year’s resolutions we might consider to makes ourselves sociopath-proof.
1. Eliminate pity.
This may sound very strange to those of us who were taught that we are responsible to help the less fortunate. But pity is not what we were supposed to learn. Pity is an emotion that places us in a one-up position to someone we view as less than us. It is also dangerously linked to feeling sorry for ourselves. In acting on pity, we get into emotionally tangled situations of entitlement and debt, which leave us feeling unappreciated and resentful.
Empathy and compassion are much more functional and respectful emotions. Empathy is extending ourselves to understand another’s circumstances. (“That must be difficult for you.”) Compassion is extending ourselves to understand how they feel. (“That must be painful for you.”) Both of them can lead to bonding experiences. Neither of them requires us to take action to help. In fact, “dispassionate compassion” is the respectful recognition that other people are following their own paths, which have nothing to do with us. This doesn’t mean that we won’t help, but it keeps things in perspective.
As most people who have been involved with sociopaths know, the ability to elicit pity and then take advantage of our knee-jerk inclination to help is one of their greatest manipulative tools. It can be particularly seductive, because they seem so strong and confident, except for this one little weakness. If we practice offering empathy or compassion without offering to help, we can short-circuit the pity play, and gain control over where we place our helping efforts.
2. Demand reciprocity.
“Demand” doesn’t mean trying to make people do what is unnatural to them. It means making choices to pursue relationships in which reciprocity clearly exists. If we are generous to someone who seems to have an unlimited appetite for our generosity, but little inclination to give back, we cut that person out of our life.
In demanding reciprocity, we become clear about what we’re giving and what we want back. For example, if we are open about our feelings, then we may want the same in return. If we are willing to provide emotional support, we may want that back. If we are providing financial or material support, we may want something material or financial in return for it. (If we’re paying money for emotional support, this is a professional relationship, not a personal one.)
Reciprocity exists in real time. This is not like being good all our life, so that after we die, we go to heaven. This is being good and getting good back. Here and now. People act out of their characters and also out of their real objectives. If the other person’s real objectives don’t include being fair to us right now, then we are in an unfair situation. This is the year we abandon unfairness in our lives.
3. Trust conditionally.
It’s a basic human need to trust and be trusted. Like love, we want it to be perfect and forever. Like love, maintaining trust often takes shared effort, and it can lead to disappointment. Some of us hope that we if treat people as though they were trustworthy, they will rise to the occasion.
As those of us who have been involved with sociopaths know, treating them as though they can be trusted is equivalent to asking a burglar to watch our jewelry box while we make a pot of coffee. What we got back for treating them as though they could be trusted is loss.
But this isn’t just about sociopaths. In day-to-day living, we are continually learning new things about the people we know. Sometimes, we learn good things that make us trust someone more. Sometimes we learn troubling things that make us trust someone less. When we trust them less, it means that we are more guarded in sharing ourselves and our resources. When we trust them more, we are more relaxed.
Diminished trust is not the end of the world. There are ways that we can work with another person to rebuild trust, if that person is worthy of trust. And there are ways to deal with untrustworthy people if we can’t get rid of them, as in a work situation. However it plays out, the important thing is to be honest with ourselves about how trusting we really feel. It has everything to do with our survival and well-being.
4. Value what we have.
Other than pity, the sociopath’s best tool of manipulation is identifying our dissatisfactions with our own lives, magnifying them, and then claiming to have the solution. They set their hooks in the voids in our lives, the lacks that we worry over, dream over.
If we wonder what kind of person is invulnerable to sociopathic wiles, it is the kind who invests time and energy on what he or she has, rather than what’s missing. That doesn’t mean they aren’t working on improvements. But when they look at themselves and their lives, they see something they own, planned and built by they own efforts. It doesn’t mean they never made a mistake, but they survived it and learned from it.
That kind of attitude is fundamentally positive. It looks at what exists in the environment – internal and external – and says “What good thing can I do with this?” How can I use it to make me happier or my life more interesting? What can I do with it to make the world a better place for the people I care about?
For those of us who are still raw from a brutally exploitive relationship, it may be hard to focus on anything but what we’ve lost. We are wounded and we feel pain. But in healing, we learn that pain is one of our valued resources. It motivates us to learn. It can even keep us from learning the wrong thing. For example, deciding to never trust anyone again is a premature learning, and we feel pain whenever we go in that direction. Pain is one of the voices of our inner wisdom. It keeps us from settling for the wrong thing.
5. Self-validate.
In other words, care less about what other people think. Turn within for encouragement, approval, comfort, inspiration and kindness.
Sociopaths have been called “soul killers,” because they separate us from our inner wisdom. First they seduce us with our own dreams, then they cause us to question our ideas and our values, and finally they beat us down with disloyalty and denigration while telling us that we asked for it. The longer and deeper our involvement, the more we lose ourselves in self-questioning and ultimately self-hatred.
If there is one good thing about a relationship with a sociopath, it is the clarification that we are our own primary support. In dealing with someone who is dishonest, undependable, untrustworthy and viciously unkind, most of us discover that we know better. We know that we are not what they think of us. We are not even how we are behaving. There is something in us that knows better. Knows who we really are. Knows how we really want our life to be.
We also discover that no one else – not the sociopath, not our friends, not our advisors –knows us better than we do. It doesn’t mean that we know everything about the world. We still collect information. We still seek role models for things we don’t know how to do yet. We’re not proud or over-impressed with ourselves. We just know rationally that we’re our own best counsel, our only decider of what we think, feel, believe, want and choose to do.
When we learn how to self-validate, it changes our lives. For those of us who hear the denigrating voice of the sociopath in our thoughts, self-validating is a way to bypass it. To say, “Oh, shut up. You’re not me, you’re just a bad memory” while we move on to explore our thoughts and feelings. It takes practice to self-validate. We have to make a decision about wanting to be independent in creating our own lives. We have to train ourselves to find our inner wisdom and push aside anything that gets in the way of hearing it.
This year, 2009, is the year that all of us get better. Better friends with ourselves and others because we’re cultivating compassion and empathy. Better lovers because we’re learning to love out of choice, not need. Better partners of every sort, because we give and demand kindness and respect. Better members of our community because “dispassionate compassion” enables us to select our helpful efforts, rather than feeling forced into them.
Should a sociopath show up, we are learning the best way to be sociopath-proof. That is, to value ourselves and our lives. And to exercise our options — to be a ruthlessly determined shark or a sweetly generous carp – depending on what our circumstances require.
Namaste. The dolphin in me salutes the dolphin in you.
Kathy
* Strategy of the Dolphin, Dudley Lynch and Paul Kordis, 1989. Out of print, but available from sellers at Amazon. More information on additional books and personal assessment tests can be found at Brain Technologies.
written by Kathleen Hawk • Permalink •
truebeliever says:
Angiesue8
I was where you are about 10 months ago. Only I got married. I was married for one year and everything crumbled quickly. I was told that I was “the one” and begged to work things out. NO WAY! I went to a counselor and she helped validate what I already knew. Know this: sociopaths are “crazy makers”. I am a “true believer”! I was in counseling for 8 months and it really helped. I cut off all contact plus anyone having to do with my ex and started to see the truth much clearer. I was “still” and “listened” to myself and gained my power back! He does not want you to have the opportunity to do that and will keep you in a state of confusion and pity. DO NOT GO THERE! Hang in there, you are strong and can get through this!
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Eternal Student says:
“Trust conditionally”
Amen.
Here’s a great illustration of how we come to foolishly trust the untrustworthy in romantic relationships:
“Friend: blah blah blah he’s so wonderful blah blah blah I TOTALLY trust him.
Me: Why?
Friend: What do you mean “why”? Because I LOVE him!!
Me: Trust is supposed to be based on a person’s record of proper behavior, NOT on your raging hormones.
Friend: You’re supposed to trust the people you love.
Me: Not unless they are in fact trustworthy.
Friend: He IS trustworthy.
Me: Oh? So you mean that wasn’t YOU calling me every day complaining that he didn’t call, didn’t show up on time, forgot to do what he said he would and so forth?
Friend: Well… yeah… but those are minor things, you don’t base trust on things like that.
Me: So what DO you base trust on, then, other than him not having committed a major crime to the best of your knowledge?
Friend: … well… uh…
Me: Exactly. All you have available to judge the appropriate level of trust by are those countless little occasions where he either did the right thing or did NOT… and he’s failed over and over, hasn’t he?
Friend: Yeah, but… I don’t care about that, I know he loves me, and I trust him because I know he won’t hurt me.
Me: I can recall a dozen times that he HAS hurt you, and that’s just the ones you’ve told me about; how does that lead to your belief that he won’t keep right on hurting you with the same insensitive, thoughtless things he’s done all along?
Friend: But he… but I…
Me: Has he had a bump on the head and had a total personality change? Has he undergone radical psychotherapy in the past few days? Did he suddenly find religion?
Friend: No…
Me: Then on what do you base your belief that a man who hasn’t shown himself worthy of your trust is in fact trustworthy?
Friend: I don’t care what you say, I love him and I’m still going to trust him!!
Me: {sigh}
2 months later:
Friend: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!! I can’t believe he cheated on me with my best friend/stole all my $/was dealing drugs from my house/gave me a venereal disease/was still seeing his ex-girlfriend!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!! Why did I ever trust him?!!
Me: {SIGH}”
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/.....5321689716
We also need to look at how much trust others place in us as an indicator of how much we should trust them:
“Beware of anyone who:
Is unable to trust in general, and especially won’t trust a clearly trustworthy person.
Only a totally UNtrustworthy person, or one who’s been badly “burned” in relationships, withholds trust where it’s clearly earned; the former assumes that everyone is like them, and the latter has decided to make darned sure no one can ever hurt them again by refusing to let anyone get close, not even friends or romantic partners… and they’ll NEVER change, no matter how good you are to them-if necessary, they’ll INVENT reasons to not trust you in order to validate their worldview.”
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/.....6981311523
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Wrong word, perhaps. Though paranoia doesn’t mean it’s not justified.
I agree that confronting a problem requires understanding that the problem exists. But my point is that it also requires a clear view of the better alternative.
I think — and this is only me — that I care less about prosecution than I care about getting what I want from my voting and my tax investments in this country. That is, I’m making a choice to focus on the solution, rather than the problem.
It requires me to think about what I want (and take the risk of being wrong and have to rethink it). I used to be pretty good at that before the sociopath left me feeling like my picker was broken. And I’m getting better at it again, because all the anger and sense of betrayal I felt in relation to the sociopath, also educated me about what was important to me. And what is important in my own life are the values I logically extend to the world.
Fairness, compassion, safety, shelter and enough to eat, access to information, trustworthiness — these are big “Mom and apple pie” concepts. But they are also the values that are making some of us angry at the failures we see around us. And they make some of us think about how we want it to be.
Anger is a focusing emotion. We identify problems and have a rush of energy to fix them. It makes us feel powerful, and it motivates us to take action. Which is a good thing, because action itself can be scary. We can fail. But if we have the outlines of why we’re doing it firmly in our heads, and we’ve taken the time to figure out how we want it to come out, that anger evolves into the true power of being a conscious agent of change.
Instead of being reactive –which is what anger is — we become directed by a vision of something better. That is what a visionary is. The anger kicked us in the butt, and now the vision pulls us toward it. And with our eye on the goal, the things in the way become just obstacles.
Our goals may be personal or global. Whatever they are, they make us powerful.
And to return to the topic of the blog, if you imagine you weren’t powerful in relationship to the sociopath, I would disagree. These people are dangerous because they are life’s transients, and because they will do anything to get what they think they need. What they don’t have is so much more important than what they do have. And at the end of the story, we all know that they are fundamentally useless people pretending to have a place in society, but unable to understand how it really works or the good in it.
We are something else. Something with much more potential. And if you doubt it, all you have to do is think about how you would really like things to come out. And compare it with what they really wanted. There’s no comparison.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Ouch, Eternal Student.
That was so perfect. And it so perfectly reminded me of myself back when. I wonder what the emotion is called when you’re cringing and laughing at the same time.
You should put that on the stage
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Healing Heart says:
I know – doesn’t that sting a bit, to read that? It’s funny, definitely, but a little close to home………………
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Matt says:
Kathleen:
Agree with you about anger being a focusing emotion. I get so ticked off right now at the people who tell me to “let it go” with respect to the S. After feeling so numb by the time I drove off S, the white hot anger that I feel is actually refreshing.
Keeping focused on the anger has forced me to realize that I have a history of getting involved with exploitive persons and need to change.
Keeping focused on the anger gave me the strength when I was on vacation recently to draw a hard line and cut off someone who was being verbally abusive.
Keeping focused on the anger gave me the wherewithal to go into a hyper-organized state and begin to purge my apartment of all memories of the S from my apartment.
Keeping focused on the anger has shaken me out of the sleepwalk that became my life and start making some long overdue, concrete changes in my life.
Keeping focused on my anger has given me the strength to go after the S for the money he owes me.
Keeping focused on my anger is giving me the strength to take back my power. That is such a liberating feeling.
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mysticmud says:
Hi OxDrover, and thanks for the welcome back, that is very nice of you! I am off sick (lost my voice) today, so I thought I would see what was going on on here. Glad you are recovering, isnt it a hard slog? Still. this site is wonderful! I havent read too many entries about what has gone before because my eyes hurt too, (what a wreck today!). I thnk I am lucky – how I managed to get to the stage of not minding seeing my ex-partner again, was that I am lucky enough to live in a reasonable size town in Essex UK , which has a good music and social scene, and near enough to London to meet up with Beverly once (that was good!) -Hi Bev! Anyway, I just went for making a social life and kept busy busy, OK so blocking out the hurt, but it worked for me! Also lots of reading about personality types, so I could get an understanding of him. I am glad that there are no litigation problems etc to solve for me and I do empathise (good word eh?) with some of you great people out there who cannot “close the door” on that part of your life due to these and other issues. Sometimes I feel that I by blogging here , I am just prolonging the feelings of hurt, and that it is time to move on, BUT when I get on here I find that I want to, I feel connected to you, in a shared experience sort of way. Love to you all from the UK where it is grim, foggy and cold (we love weather-speak!) mystic mud
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mysticmud says:
Funilly enough, after the break up and when I had started making new friends, I made a new woman friend. She seemed to think that I was the only friend she had, and maybe she was right at the time, anyway, in typically English fashion, after a few weeks she had told me more or less ALL about her past life, and her exes, and how they had gone off with others.When she took absolutely NO interest in my life or what had happened to me, always turning the conversation back to herself with a distainful look after I had tried to tell her about my experiences, alarm bells !! Oh no not another one (S) !! Still, we went on a group weekend away and she drove. I offered to pay my half of the petrol and she said she would work out EXACTLY how much I owed (odd response I thought!) . I waited and waited, a week passed, no amount was suggested, then the abusive texts started coming. I quickly asked other friends what amount I should offer and posted it to her with an Xmas card. I didnt say anything other than here is the money, based on others’ petrol consumption, and happy Xmas (didnt want to give her any more bait for abuse}, but that didnt work. More abusive texts, which I replied very tactfully and kindly and not giving her any more bait. Eventually she said she had had enough of me sending abusive texts (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and wouldnt be opening any more – YYEESS! a result at last, so that was the end of that friendship. OK this was just a smaller example of friendships gone wrong, but with my experiences with my ex partner, I could see that she was doing the same thing. – Dont they call it projection? Why do these people need to attack in this way? What is the point , she has lost the only friend she had but I have lost one of many, so who came out best?
We dont need these types of people in our lives, just wish it was easier to identify them (still it’s easier once you have been caught by one or two isnt it?) Love to all , and I will be here today I think, so when the US wakes up I will be interested to see what thoughts today brings!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Mysticmud,
It sounds like you encountered either an N or a Borderline Personality disordered person who is ALSO an N.
That is one of the FIRST signs I look for in a “new” friend, they put in an “application” to be your INSTANT BEST FRIEND (and you will notice as you get to know them, that they tend to not have ANY OTHER “friends” LOL)
Even in a “friendship” (as opposed to a romantic relatiionship) they LOVE BOMB you right from the first and seem intent on telling you all about themselves, or they can LOVE BOMB YOU and instead of telling you all about themselves, they “mirror” you and start trying to find out EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU, and your dreams etc. Either way, it is a lost cause, so anytime I meet anyone that wants to be INSTANT BEST FRIENDS I back off quickly. Even before all of this chaos in my life with my own family of Ps I had that one thing down pat! LOL
I am glad that you started to see quickly on about this woman, and that you handled it approproately without getting your feelings deeply hurt.
Healthy people have MULTIPLE FRIENDS (as a general rule) and people like this have only ONE FRIEND AT A TIME. If you fall for them, they will isolate you from your other friends as they can’t stand the “competition” and they want YOU to have only THEM as a friend—then they exploit you.
Mystic, I am sooo glad that you are doing well and are back on track!!! Keep your instincts sharp, they are obviously working well and you are managing things in an appropriate way!!! GOOD FOR YOU!! It is amazing how “smart” we get after the healing from the Ps, isn’t it!
Our weather here is off and on from nice to horrible, typical winter weather for my central USA standpoint! Glad you popped in, we missed you. So many people never pop back in to let us know so I at least “wonder” how they are doing=—did they go back to the jerk? Find another jerk? move on to some nice life? I am a curious person and feel connected to these people and like to know THE REST OF THE STORY!!! ((Hugs))) and happy new year!!!
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Kathleen Hawk says:
I agree it gets easier to identify them, if I’ve got that “hat” on. But what doesn’t get easier is controlling my habit of feeling sorry for people with sad stories, without running some sort of logic check at least in my own mind.
When I got rid of my sociopath after five years, I thought my life would be better. Then I realized I was working for another one, who’d been as abusive and untrustworthy as the boyfriend. I just hadn’t been sleeping with my boss, but I was letting him keep me on call 24/7, so I might as well have been.
So I got rid of him (again after five years). It took me another couple of years to realize that, concurrent with much of this, I’d been up to my ears in involvement with another vampire. I don’t know what to call this one; unless it’s possible to be borderline, histrionic and narcissistic at the same time. She constantly created edge-of-the-cliff drama around herself, in which everyone else had betrayed her and she was falling apart or in vengeance mode.
At some point, I agreed to teach her some communication skills to help her get out of a bad situation. And then, it just didn’t stop, year after year. She was terribly powerful in my industry, and when I tried to cut it off once, she started boohooing on everyone else’s shoulder and cost me some relationship equity in the industry. I held firm and actually got clear of her for a year, and then somehow it started up again.
She’s as seductive as any sociopath I’ve ever met. Her stories are incredibly detailed with valuable information about industry people we both know. It took me a long time to realize that they were all basically the same plot. How she’d been taken advantage of, how she was losing her mind with grief, how she really wanted to figure out how to be stronger or more independent, and she desperately needed advice. Anyone here who’s been reading my posts can imagine how I’d respond to this pitch.
The thing is, she sounds like an ideal coaching client. She recognizes she needs to fix herself in order to fix her life. She has a goal. She’s open to help. What could go wrong?
What went wrong is that she really didn’t want anything to change. She wanted to triumph over her enemies. To beat them into the ground. She used what I and other advisers taught her to harm other people. She currently has her employer, which would love to fire her, paralyzed with threats of litigation. All of her advisers, I should add, have their boundaries blown. She calls them anytime of the day or night to seek help with her latest drama. Most of them work for free, because they feel sorry for her. As for me, there were many, many weeks that I “invested” 20 hours or more listening to her and advising her. Unpaid, though one of my clients is a referral from her.
These three relationships overlapped for a few years. I don’t know how I ever found the time to sleep, catering to these three. I know that it was impossible to keep any sort of personal commitment. I was late for everything, if I showed up at all.
I didn’t finally break it off with her until a few months ago. This is four years into my recovery from dealing with the sociopath, and about five years of dealing with her (not counting the one-year break in the middle of it). When I finally told her, “Don’t contact me again ever,” I discovered that I couldn’t stop worrying about how she was taking it. Not whether it was going to adversely affect my career (which it will), but whether I’d hurt her feelings.
That went on for a couple of days, before I realized that worrying about her was getting in the way of my work. And I just got very quiet inside myself and tried to figure out what was going on. It was like I was colonized, like this woman was squatting on my internal real estate. And not just making her usual dramatic noise about her hurt feelings, but underneath that, threatening me.
I mentally said, “Screw you,” and packed her off to the mental museum with “Not Your Friends” painted on the door. I stopped feeling sorry for her.
She’s tried to make contact a couple of times since. She’s made a referral for me, and forwarded me the glowing letter she wrote about me to that company. I wrote a brief note telling her that using her professional position to influence people on my behalf because she has a personal debt to me is unethical. That the referrals she makes are her business, and I don’t want to know about them. That it’s not repayment for what she owes me. That if she wants to repay me, she can send me $10,000 for my professional time. Otherwise, do not contact me again.
As this was going on, I was talking to my son, and asked, “What is it about me that attracts these people?” He looked at me deadpan and said, “Mom, all nice people attract them. The rest of us just get rid of them faster than you do.”
Everything is a learning experience. This one showed me that, despite all the progress I’d thought I’d made on developing good boundaries, I was still making other people’s lives more important than my own.
Sometimes I think that I’m like an alcoholic or some kind of addict. And I wish there was a program for people who are sociopathoholics, as wiserandhealing so cleverly named the syndrome. I’ve looked at Al-Anon, CoDA and Woman for Sobriety, but none of those programs seems to fit.
It seems like more than anything else, I need to develop a backbone, along with an absolute commitment to caring for myself first. And I know I’m fighting emotional patterns established in a childhood history of abuse, where minimizing the damage depended on keeping everyone happy and making myself useful.
One of the things I’ve learned in the last few years is that there is no difference between giving other people advice and reminding myself of what I need to know. As Oxy wrote in another post, sometimes we are better teachers than we are performers in our own lives. We know what we should be doing, but those old patterns are hard to break. And there’s always another temptation to get involved with a vampire.
I think they’re tests sent by the universe, in pretty boxes. Sooner or later, we get smart enough to turn the box over and read the message on the bottom. “Do you value your own life enough yet?”
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Wini says:
Kathleen Hawk: I hear you! The majority of the people who helped in destroying my career were helped by me over and over again throughout the years. Instead of them changing their situations for the better, they actually use the “poor, poor, pitiful me” routine to manipulate others.
I’ve learned over the years, I will open my mouth to you at least twice, if you don’t decide to take the advise, you never will. Twice … because I am giving the person the benefit of the doubt that they didn’t hear me the first time.
Besides, most people know what to do, they’re too lazy and choose not to. It’s sad and it’s sick, but they are comfortable with their miserable lives … so much, that they want everyone to join them in the mire than being courageous to change their lives for the better.
It was actually said where I worked, get rid of Wini and we get rid of the problem of all the others complaining about her. Get rid of me because I functioned and the ones who complained … had lives that long ago spun out of control by cheating on their spouses, abusing their children, doing drugs, drinking to excess, splitting up their families, playing their children as pawns, bancruptcies, selling drugs, spousal abuse, not coming into the office yet lying on their time sheets and getting paid, not doing work by sitting in the bars all day (this is called going to a meeting). I can go on and on and on, but you get the point.
Peace.
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Lamp Unto My Feet says:
Wini,
You seem to have eliminated all those people with all those problems from your life. Great! Must have left a very big void. What have you filled it with? Hopefully not with the same. There seems to be a small window of opportunity to make a good choices with all that space to fill. We are so relieved to to have it, but feel empty and too quickly fill the void with the very same. Just because it is familiar.
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Wini says:
Mysticmud: I don’t know if you ever read Tolle’s book “A New Earth”! A must read for everyone. Tolle explains the human condition of the EGO. Everyone has one, it’s just on a scale from 1-10, 10 being the highest of having the biggest EGO, where do the people in your life (work, family, friends, etc.) fit on this scale?
I found the way he describes the EGO, very enlightening. I also enjoyed how he explains to silence your mind, go in to the “now” this minute, right now is all you have. It was the best book for helping you heal … from any pain in your life.
Oprah.com has his 10 tapes on line for FREE. You can log on to her site, give yourself a password and either download the tapes for your headphones or listen to them on line. Incredible, incredible, incredible.
I learned that if someone can’t give you their ear to hear what you have to say, they are stuck in one gear … themselves! Some day they will learn … but do you (or any of us) have the time to wait a life time for them to finally take that one step forward for themselves. I wished we all had a magic wand that we could wave over folks to help them heal themselves, but as we all know so well from this site, one …. you have to admit you have a problem first … then make a conscious decision to change yourself, three … then know it takes conscious work to go through the pain and heal.
No quick fixes for anyone.
Peace. Hang in with us on this site, we all help each other get through the pain to be the best that we can be.
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Wini says:
Lamp Unto My Feet: Fill the void of dysfunctional people? No thank you. I’ve had enough!
My co-workers always caused me pain … for over 24 years the majority of it was pain, pain, pain, while their out of control lives didn’t make them blink. I purposely removed myself out of their space back in 1998, never to return or look back. In work I was always professional with them, but never let them into my personal life again.
I enjoy loving, kind, spiritual individuals … which I surround myself with. A few angry people sprinkled in here or there (some family, some childhood friends) … but, hey, what can I say … c’est la vie!
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Wini says:
Lamp Unto My Feet: Correction. I meant to write that I removed myself from their personal lives (after working hours) in 1988, not 1998.
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EyeoftheStorm says:
Kathleen Hawk……………..
I read your last post above and wondered if you know about the Books by Julia Cameron beginning with the first of her triology, “THE ARTIST’S WAY? I highly recommend this book and the other two in the trilogy. They are wonderful guides for reconnecting with the center of ourselves and for creating our lives from a healthy perspective based more on our own terms. I have referred to them for years for guidance and wisdom when things get off track. When we are open to creativity we nurture possibility and we become architects of change even in the smallest ways that can build a momentum.
Here is the table of contents for The Artist’s Way……………..
1. Recovering a Sense of Safety
2. Recovering a Sense of identity
3. Recovering a Sense of Power
4. Recovering a Sense of Integrity
5. Recovering a Sense of Possibility
6. Recovering a Sense of Abundance
7. Recovering a Sense of Connection
8. Recovering a Sense of Strength
9. Recovering a Sense of Compassion
10. Recovering a Sense of Self-protection
11. Recovering a Sense of Autonomy
12. Recovering a Sense of Faith
“They always say time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself.” Andy Warhol
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Kathleen Hawk says:
EyeoftheStorm, thanks. And that’s for typing in that whole table of contents. I think I actually have it on the shelf, and haven’t read it yet. It looks like exactly the right thing to be reading now.
I’ve been on a run of Asia-based mystery novels, which all have Buddhist detectives. This morning I finished “Beautiful Ghosts” by Eliot Pattison, one of a series of deep and literate books set in Tibet. These books help me learn Buddhism as it operates on the ground, rather than in abstractions.
And though it might not be immediately obvious, there is a lot of relevance to this work we’re doing. Especially in Pattison’s books, which detail the plight of Tibet under Chinese rule, which is both predatory and cruel. The community connections and spiritual training of the Tibetan people make them so authentic in their reactions, but also so resilient. Not infinitely so. They’re human. But I find them a lot less brittle than us.
If you’re a fiction reader, I highly recommend Pattison.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Matt, I just found your anger letter, and yes, yes, yes.
I didn’t even know I never really felt powerful, until my anger finally came loose after this guy. For the first time in my life, I didn’t try to quash it or rationalize it away or do that la-di-dah thing where I’m pretending I’m not really angry.
You sound so incredibly organized and functional. You’re doing all the right things. You didn’t mention talking to his ghost. I did that for a long time. “Go away. Don’t come back. I don’t want you here anymore.” In fact, I still find myself doing it occasionally, when something stresses me makes me anxious.
I also blamed him for everything, just everything, because the impact was all over my life. I still have difficulty with being struck by unwanted feelings, because so much of what I did for so long was about him. Short of burning my house down, finding a new profession and moving to Borneo, there just no way to avoid the little memory bombs.
But there was one great moment, maybe a year after he left. I was on a toll road on the way home from a business meeting 100 miles away. I stopped at a big discount mall to visit a store, and then started home again. I went through the toll plaza and down the entrance ramp to the highway, and found myself driving in the wrong direction.
I’d gotten confused, made a mistake. But as I drove down the road to the nearest exit 16 miles away, I realized that this mistake had nothing to do with him. It wasn’t because I was stressed or confused or trying to do something I couldn’t do or crying because of him. It had absolutely nothing to do with him. I hadn’t been thinking about him at all, and I’d made a mistake of my very own.
It was a great moment, a turning point. Who’d imagine someone would be happy about an extra 30 miles added onto drive home. But I was delighted. Whew.
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EyeoftheStorm says:
Here is an excerpt about ANGER from The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron. It fits in with what KH and Matt are saying.
http://www.interluderetreat.co.....anger2.htm
So often I read passages by professionals saying that anger is “unhealthy”; that we must let go of it! Once I read these wise words many years ago, I understood my anger and valued it from then on.
The same is true of fear. It’s a survival mechanism. I think it is Gavin de Becker in “The Gift of Fear” (a must read for women especially) who points out that we are the only animals that do not act immediately on what we know and perceive. When we sense danger in relationships, often we don’t get away ASAP. We call our friends, we discuss over an over what we think a certain behavior might mean, we give ourselves all kinds of reasons to ignore it…..other animals run! And we think we are smarter! How did we lose our survival skills?
I posted the contents of “The Artist’s Way” so everyone could see what it covers. It is not a resource just for artists. It is about recovering our “selves” and creating our lives though a passion that comes from within instead of battling with an N/S/P for what passes for a life.
Healing from these relationships and from victimization, which is not always a consequence of being hooked into loving the wrong person, eventually brings us back to finding ourselves and putting that “self” back together again.
These are gentle books for wounded people. The authors don’t have professional credentials; they write from the wisdom they gained through life experience which is what makes their message so valuable, accurate, and effective, IMO.
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mysticmud says:
Thanks OxDrover for explaining my ex-friend to me, I dont suppose I will ever come across her again, but in her abusive texts it was clear that she felt bitter that I had many friends. (ie “if you have so many friends, why do you send me abusive texts…small mind… get a life etc etc)….(I had been very careful when replying to her abusive texts, so to not give her any bait!) Still thats the end of that, and hopefully, if I am lucky enough in the future to meet someone who would like to be a partner, I know what to look for and what to avoid (I’m not desparate!) It has been a great lesson in human psychology and personality, and has been fascinating – after dealing with the hurt thanks to you guys.
Thank you Wini for recommending that book, I will look on Amazon for it after I have done here.
OxDrover, you are a wise person to take on board problems we post about, and I value your comments, thank you – I will pop on from time to time, as I feel I know some of you a bit, although time does not usually allow me to come on here much.
The next problem I have is to somehow make my son (24) see that he is living with a person I consider to be histrionic, and completely controls him. He has moved to Hull, which is 200 miles away to live in the family house with his gf. On a couple of occasions he has phoned me pleading with me to tell him what to do, as she found a message from one of his exes on the internet to him, and had gone “ballistic” – wrist cutting etc , running away – I advised him to come home, and break free, but he said “no I will just go back and talk to her”, now its all “OK” again, until the next time something happens. Anything can start her off and he doesnt phone anymore and if I phone, she is always there and the converation is very stilted. She does not approve of him talking to his Mum so he doesnt do it – only when she sends him down the shop on his own. (Even bringing back the wrong crisps can start her off, apparently!) If I went there, I would not be able to see him on his own, he is completely sucked in and walks on egggshells all the time, so as not to upset her. If she thought he was about to leave, he reckons she would kill herself – he just cannot see that she would do no such thing and and its just to control him. What can I do? Anything? He doesnt have enough experience of what a good relationship can be, so I worry worry worry…. still not sure if she comes under the realm of this blog but she is definitley narcissistic….anyone got any ideas?
Like all of us on here, I just want to help and fix people, but you cant, my son is a caring lad, and that is why he is in the situation he is in – he says he loves her, so I just tear my hair out with worry. Sorry to go on guys, now…..EyeoftheStorm, yes I reckon he needs to find his own self like I am doing, dont you?
Kathleen, I can relate to you finding joy in driving the wrong way home, its something you did on your own, nothing to do with him. So this is all related, finding your own self, same thing – its what its all about…
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Wini says:
Mysticmud: I would tell your son to log on here to be able to read as much as he can. Make sure his GF doesn’t know about it. If he has a good friend that is still in touch with him … and of course that his GF approves of because that friend is not a threat to her controlling your son … I’d relay this message regarding this site through the friend. This way, the GF won’t sabotage your son coming onto this site. Hopefully, she doesn’t catch on to his being informed this way. Actually, I think Donna should have a second doorway into this site … something mundane and boring like a site about industrial tools or something … then there is a secret link to go into this site … (LOL) so the control freak spouses don’t catch on. Knowing what I know now, my EX always logged on to my computer to check my e-mails and to check to see what links I looked at.
Just a thought.
Good luck in getting your son away from her. I hate to see new folks going through this pain.
Peace.
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EyeoftheStorm says:
It is possible to read this site at public libraries. It is also possible to have alternative e-mail accounts which can be accessed and read at a public library.
Mystic Mud…….
Years ago I went to a medical doctor who stressed the importance of nutrition. He specialized in treating complicated cases and untangling complex causes. Since most of his patients were seriously ill and often had been told there was nothing more that could be done, he stressed the basic importance of eating only food of the highest nutritional quality in order to give the body what it needed to rebuild healthy cells. Over the years he learned the importance of this approach with anyone suffering from chronic unexplained symptoms and he also learned how hard it was for patients to comply no matter how clearly he explained it was basic to achieving good health. When someone would balk at being told a diet of pizza and beer was bad for them, he would say “they aren’t sick enough yet” to make the needed changes.
Sometimes I think this same idea might apply to people who cannot see what others are telling them about an unhealthy relationships that is bad for them. They are not hurting enough yet. You son has to hurt enough. Then he will remove himself from the situation and realize taking care of himself does not make him responsible the ballistic behavior used to control him. He can walk away, say “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn!”, and feel comfortable.
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mysticmud says:
Thank you, guys! – as any mother though I wouldnt want to see him hurt so much that he then walks away of his own accord, but thats the way it has to be isnt it? I will try to tell him about this site, but I doubt he could go to a public library on his own to look! Take care all!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Mystic,
My son C was married to a personality disordered woman who he allowed to keep him in chaos and isolated for 8 years. He says that only the first 6 months was “good” and after that it was HELL on a daily basis. He stayed because he too is a caring person and had gone into marriage with the idea that he would “MAKE” it work, nio matter what–”for better or worse.”
Eventually, she and her BF tried to kill my son when he discovered their affair (and said “We’ll go to counseling and work it out, sweetie.”) Thank goodness they didn’t succeed in killing him and he got through to the cops in time. Now, he too is healing and our relationship is better than ever.
I knew from the first day I met this woman she was deceptive and married him for a “meal ticket”—couldn’t convince him that they should “WAIT” to get to know each other better before they got married (at least)….so SHUT my mouth (believe that or not, guys!!) and WAITED…and waited and waited, but FINALLY he “hurt enough” as Eye said. She’s right, that’s what it takes for ANY of us, IMO, to BREAK FREE.
I’m a “tough old bird” and my son’s “apple didn’t fall far from my tree” and is a “tough younger bird.” It took a LOT for it to be ENOUGH hurt, but when we finally got there, we broke free.
My advice is to just let your son know you love him and are there for him and don’t even discuss the woman with him. Just keep your realtionship with him as best you can under the circumstances, and PRAY FOR HIM to see the light!! ((((hugs)))))
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pb says:
I attended an info session yesterday on a career planning program I will be in. From there I will likely be retrained, or will carry on into a business start-up program…not sure.
I have a few ideas regarding direction, but this will sort it all out.
I’m hoping to choose something complementary to my current career/industry, allowing me to have more options if needed.
It’s nice to be confused by too many options (for a change).
I’m keeping busy.
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mysticmud says:
Thank you Oxy, for sharing your and your son’s experiences, yes I will do what you say and keep my relationship with my son free from mentioning the gf. I think you are right and thanks for the hugs – as long as he knows he can come back at any time and I will be there for him, thats all that matters….
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Matt says:
Kathleen:
Had to smile at your story about taking the wrong exit.
My ex-S used to do some of his best work while I was behind the wheel. Inevitably we would be stuck in bumper-to-bumper holiday traffic or at night when I been behind the wheel for hours (and in bumper-to-bumper traffic). He would have me absolutely in knots.
Why I was so big on him coming on these so-called “holidays” with me now escapes me. Of course HE was never behind the wheel because he didn’t have a drivers license, and, silly me, wouldn’t let him get behind the wheel of my car!
A week or so ago, I was driving in heavy traffic, and that was when it dawned on me — I wasn’t stressed. I didn’t have S next to me twisting me in knots.
Personally I don’t understand how I managed to survive 35 years behind the wheel without S next to me. Do you?
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shabbychic2 says:
Kathleen: Thank you for the wonderful post. I do remember you from a year ago when I was visiting here everyday, I should have kept reading, because I fell in the same trap again/different person. I need to take care of my self!! I loved the part about the difference between pity and empathy.
alohatraveler: I have read your “Snapshots” post again, I had it bookmarked all this time, never forgot it. Thanks.
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Issie says:
AHHHH My S husband managed to file a reply to my divorce papers at the VERY LAST MINUTE!!! So now we are STILL married! I know that God has a purpose for how things go… but I am starting to become afraid that this S is going to actually get more than visitation for our child! He has not seen our baby since the week after Thanksgiving. When I filed the Dv papers I filed a Parenting PLan that he had to make an appt with a service here in town to have visitation. So he knows what to do, yet he continues to call me “Will you let me see him?” SO I changed my cell number today! Y is it that these S/Ps get away with all that they do and us “Normal” people cant drive 5 miles an hour over the speed limit w/o getting caught!!!!!
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OxDrover says:
DEar Issie,
It isn’t the child he wants to see, it is YOU he wants to interact with and he is using that as an excuse. He still thinks he can lure you back in again.
GOOD for you changing your number. He can’t be in control, but he will sure try to be. Many times they have really NO desire to see the baby and if they don’t get to see YOU as well even at the picking up and dropping off, they lose interest really quickly. If you can I suggest that you make arrangements to have the baby handed off by someone else rather than you, to limit totally any interaction with him. If you HAVE to communicate with him do it through the attorney. The less you interact with him the better for you is my opinion. Hang in there!!! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers fo ryou and your baby boy!
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Issie says:
Thanks Oxy. Right now I am NOT letting him see him. Unless he calls this service and makes an appt, which he hasn’t done. We are affraid he will run off with the baby just to spite us or try to get some leverage. (sp) He has now lost his job and only income… short of the Credit card numbs we think he is taking out of the girls’ purses while they are sleeping or showering at his house. I have also gotten to and ruined at least 5 of the past few girls since Christmas!
I do get such a kick out of that. LOL. Thanks for the prayers! Lots of Love.
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Issie says:
Oh, and I know he just wants to talk to me … there is a reason his first wife had to file for dv 4 times to get it done!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Issie,
GOOD JOB!!! I would suspect that you might be right about him running off with the baby, and would take every precaution about that. Look at that stupid Rockefeller guy!! They have some nerve!
I don’t blame you for getting a “kick out of” tipping off his GFs that he is using, but at the same time, it is protecting them, too, and that is a GOOD THING. If he has no job and no money maybe he will move on and “desert” your Child!! Oh, happy DAY! when that happens!!! Or better yet, maybe he will rob some place and go to prison. One can only hope!!! What ever gets him out of your life and your baby’s is a GOOD THING!! Keep us posted here! I hate not knowing “the REST of the story” as Paul Harvey says!
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Rune says:
Ad on Craigslist: 5 rules for men to be happy –
1. It’s important to have a woman, who helps at home, who
cooks from time to time, cleans up and has a job.
2. It’s important to have a woman, who can make you laugh.
3.. It’s important to have a woman, who you can trust and
who doesn’t lie to you.
4. It’s important to have a woman, who is good in bed and
who likes to be with you.
5. It’s very, very important that these four women do not
know of each other.
Anyone here thinking of answering this one?
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sstiles54 says:
Rune,
Oh, hell no! It’s probably from the trolling entity that intruded our space Thurs.
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Wini says:
sstiles54: Correction. You meant TROLLING COWARD.
Peace.
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Wini says:
Rune: The DEVIL’s favorite ploy … divide and conquer at it’s finest… posting such nonsense on Craig Lists … mingles the anti-social personalities with the “normal” guys in the world … and hence, they all end up walking down that no-where path.
Hey, wouldn’t that be funny if the 4 women are psychos in their own right (LOL).
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newlife08 says:
He is getting bolder. Last night I was doing dishes and saw the GF next door walking down the street to the bottom of the hill and get in my N husbands truck. Now why is he getting bolder tot he point he knows the kids could actually watch this freom the kitchen table. Funny, he called right before but we didn’t answer the phone. When I left a message this morning that his carelessness is harmful to the children he wanted to know if I told them an his answer was” Well you shouldn’t have been near the window!!! Why are you looking out the window at 10 at night???”
What kind of convaluted answer is this?
How do i keep my cool watching this all happen right before us??
My kids have to go through this garbage and she wants her own protected from it???
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Wini says:
newlife08: GET OUT OF THAT NON-RELATIONSHIP … AND QUICK.
He’s wasting your precious time, love, soul and children’s well being, including your own.
Peace to your heart and soul. I know it’s not what you want to hear, but you need to hear it just the same. YOU AND THOSE CHILDREN ARE TOO GOOD FOR THE LIKES OF HIM. He’s a ruthless liar, cheat, con and he doesn’t care. Please go get checked out for all STDs and pray that he hasn’t given you something. If you saw him with one new victim, believe me there are more. You wasted your life with him up until now. Yes, it’s a new year, please get away from him … for you and your children’s sake.
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newlife08 says:
Thank you Wini . He filed for divorce in June without even telling me. He told the kids so they would .
Anyway, I did the STD check and sure enough – HPV positive.
Two tests so far – two positive. The lawyers say I have to stay in this house until a settlement is final. I have written before that he is in the new house – best of everything -and won’t switch so me and the kids can get away from their mess.
I don’t know how much longer I can look at this every day and listen to her declare how she has won. Every time I feel stronger there seems to be a new incident like last night and it sends me back to feeling like a loser.
I know my self-esteem has taken a nose dive over the years but how do all of you get used to seeing your spouse with someone else???
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alohatraveler says:
newlife08,
What a jerk he is. Remember, one of the things they do is expose us to more and more outrageous behavior. This is where those boundaries come in. When will yours go up. What will it take for you to say, “ENOUGH!” The next thing you know, he will be in your bed with this woman and when you find them, he will blame you for being in your own house.
I wish you the best in 2009! He ain’t it!
aloha
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Wini says:
NewLife08: You won … you are getting away from a bloodsucking vampire who will jump from relationship to relationship to relationship. You and your children don’t need to watch the entire movie … they are all the same, plain and devoid of anything spiritual.
I’m glad you are getting out of that non-relationship. He will do nothing but suck everyone dry … then go off to the next victim to suck them dry too.
Stay on this site with all … we are all in healing together.
You will make it … you will survive. I’m sorry to hear of your test results … maybe you should send a copy to his latest victim. Make a few thousand copies, then you can keep sending them over and over again until these women get away from him. While you are at it, I’d report him to CDC if your physician hasn’t done so already!
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Rune says:
New: I did a lot of work on myself using a technique of “releasing emotion.” It’s a practice that has allowed me to get a grip on my own anger, despair, panic, etc., etc. The practice starts with the understanding that — “emotions lie.” When you react with your emotion, in this situation, your brain/mind/body is wishing for something that isn’t real, wasn’t real, and can’t be real. How can you be jealous of the attention of this piece of garbage? (I know, I know — it hurts, and of course you feel this way.)
I did this work using “The Sedona Method,” but there are several other sources as well. It’s a form of “cognitive behavioral therapy,” where you choose to get a grip on the feelings that come up and, rather than just stuffing them back down, practice releasing those emotions. Once you can get past those storms of emotion you can actually look at what’s going on and start to think more clearly for yourself.
It doesn’t matter what he thinks or does or what she thinks or does. All that matters is you. You and your new clarity, your new understanding, your developing wisdom, and your new openness to the truth. Remember, “The truth shall set you free.” I understand your pain, but how much worse to be trapped as you were in the past, held fast in the tarpit of his lies.
I hope you can find a way to feel the blessing and healing in your new freedom.
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alohatraveler says:
Rune,
Don’t look for men on Craigslist.
That takes care of that!
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Rune says:
I found a contract job and some good connections that way, but you sure have to be careful! I did my research and checked out the credentials, etc., etc.
As for “looking for love in all the wrong places,” Craigslist is almost as bad as a biker bar or cage fighting at the arena!
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alohatraveler says:
shabbychic2~
I am so glad that helped you. I have come a long way from there. Have you read “A list for Leaving the Sociopath Behind”. Yes, I wrote it… but it really helped me to get my head straight about that Bad Man. I have no doubt these days that he was just palin BAD!
Good luck ShabbyChic!
Aloha
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OxDrover says:
RUNE!!!
I hadn’t thought of going to a biker bar to look for men! Gosh, I can’t believe I didn’t think of that!!! I have sort of been thinking along the idea of going to the local wino shelter and picking me out one and brining him home, but a biker bar would be even better!!!! GREAT IDEA. Where are the cage fights so I can go to them too! LOL ROTFLMAO
Boy, I am really getting nutso tonight! I have been laughing like a nut case all day!!!
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Rune says:
Let’s see, if he has black leather all over him, lots of chains, a piercing gaze, and says, “Hey, Baby, I like a woman with spirit!” uh, I hope you’ll be running the other way . . . ?
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Wini says:
Today is the day of our Lord.
If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and
all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.
And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.
Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.
It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.
It does not rejoice over the wrong,
but rejoices in the truth
It covers all things, it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things, it endures in all things.
Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.
For we know in part and we prophecy in part.
But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.
When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant, I reckoned as an infant;
when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant.
For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know
as also I was fully known.
But now remains faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.
1 corinthians 13:1-13
Peace to everyone soul!
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Rune says:
Amen. I believe that all of us here have survived a rite of passage. if we are on this side with our compassion intact, then we have faith, hope, and — the greatest of the three — love.
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