A sociopath will leave you out in the cold every time
PDF The day after Christmas, I got a lesson in respecting the elements. It was about 35°F, not really that cold, but there was quite a wind chill. The kids and I went to the beach to run the dog on the sand at about 3:30 in the afternoon. We got back to the van at about 5 to discover that good old Mom had lost her keys. (Actually, a prior foster dog had chewed a hole in my jacket pocket and the keys fell out.) I ended up calling a taxi, but we waited in the elements for at least an hour total.
We were all properly dressed with boots, hats, gloves and heavy jackets. In spite of being prepared, we were chilled to the bone when we finally got home. I said to my daughter, “I can see how easy it is to freeze to death in the cold, and why people die when they get stuck in the snow.”
I’m sure most people who live in places where it gets dangerously cold have their own stories to tell. That is why it is so tragic and unbelievable that an Idaho father “allowed” his 11 year old daughter and 12 year old son to attempt to walk 10 miles in the snow Christmas day after their vehicle got stuck.
Temperatures ranged from -5 to 27°F when the two set out from the disabled vehicle. According to the Associated Press, the children were living with their father Robert Aragon and were being driven to visit their mother JoLeta Jenks. “After the sedan got caught in the snow, authorities allege Aragon let the children out to walk to their mother’s house while he and his cousin Kenneth Quintana, 29, stayed behind to free the car. (They freed the car and went home rather than driving to make sure the kids made it.) Jenks said she eventually called Aragon because she was concerned after no one arrived at her home on Thursday.
Aragon had driven back to his hometown of Jerome after letting the kids out to walk to her house, Jenks said.
“I could not believe it,” she said.”
The 12 year old boy was found 4 ½ miles away, delusional from hypothermia. His sister was not so lucky, she was found dead 2 ½ miles away. Fleming (the local Sheriff) said she was wearing only a brown down coat, black shirt, pink pajama pants and tan snowboots.
He reportedly commented, “I’ve never seen anything like this, it was a 10-mile walk, the way they were dressed, it’s just all mind-boggling.”
Incidents like this one are the answer to the “So what?” question. What’s the “So what?” question? It is the response judges and attorneys have to the finding that a parent is a sociopath or has psychopathic personality traits. So What?
| DSM IV Sociopathy (Antisocial Personality Disorder) |
| 5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others. 6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations. |
| PCL-R Psychopathy |
| 10. Poor behavioral controls 13. Lack of realistic, long-term goals 15. Irresponsibility 16. Failure to accept responsibility for actions 17. Many short term marital relationships |
The table above shows that irresponsibility and recklessness are part of sociopathy as defined by the psychiatry’s DSM and psychopathy as defined by the PCL-R.
Why are sociopaths so consistently reckless and irresponsible? These traits get us to the core of the disorder. At the core of the disorder is poor impulse control. What that means is that if there is a situation where the sociopath has to balance pleasure and risk, the sociopath will always choose pleasure over managing risk. Sociopaths are unable to feel fear or concern for consequences during the time they are focused on immediate pleasure or comfort.
In situations like the father and the kids in the snow, the pull to get the car out and go home is stronger than any concern for the kids. While in pursuit of a goal involving pleasure, thoughts of risk or danger simply are not there. So why would a sociopath drive to go find the kids when he can go home and be warm?
Also sociopaths are unable to love so they lack working empathy. Thoughts and feelings of another’s physical suffering simply do not register on the radar. Out of sight, out of mind defines sociopaths and their relationships. The minute the kids set out, they are gone.
Sociopaths also lack moral reasoning ability. That means they are unable to detect and interpret situations that have moral implications. The moral implications of parental responsibility do not register at the time life and death decisions have to be made.
There is not much information regarding Aragon’s psychopathic personality traits. But he does have two drug convictions and often drug abuse/addiction causes these personality traits. I am sure we will learn more about this tragic story over the next few months.
Sadly, most people do not understand sociopathy and how it is disabling for a parent. To expect a sociopath to execute sound judgment or be a protective parent when forced to choose between his pleasure and his child’s pain is like expecting a mentally retarded person to do calculus.
One of our Lovefraud readers, Rune sent me these comments to this story as posted on AOL.
Nanamummy
05:41 AMJan 02 2009
If this man is such a criminal…why did he have custody of the children? Yes, he made a decision which will haunt him for life…..what’s to be gained by putting him in jail for life? Over zealous authorities and a useless justice system…..this case really depresses me.
JAKVINOCUR
04:39 AMJan 02 2009
so we are now putting fathers in jail for stuff like this. seriously whether they went walking or not they would have still needed to be in the snow. the father was only doing what he thought was best. if he was such a bad father than why does he have custody of them over the mother. yes it was a bad judgement on his part but dont you think he has been punished enough by losing his daughter. we will punish people for [heinous] crimes but we still cannot find osama bin laden or even catch murderers here or sex offenders. wheter what he did or not is irrelvent he lost his daughter let him go find peace in his heart. if god can forgive him why cant we. stupid to let this man go to prison.
Keshet333
11:55 PMJan 02 2009
This is a very unfortunate accident. The fact that the man had custody of the children tells me that he was a good father. In situations such as these, decision making is sometimes not the best. This man will be haunted by this for the rest of his life. They should drop all charges. Isn’t he paying enough for his bad judgment?
Russiawthluv
06:08 PMJan 01 2009
Obviously the man did NOT mean to harm his children. His son and daughter lived with him. He took care of their basic, daily needs. Why would he intentionally bring harm to either child when he has taken care of them so well for their entire lives? There’s no doubt in my mind he made an extremely poor decision. Then again, these two kids were more than likely used to snow, rain and other extreme weather, being that they grew up in that climate. The way he is portrayed by the media is simply unacceptable! Especially with the eye-catching headline..”MAN ALLOWS HIS CHILDREN TO WALK 10 MLES IN DEEP SNOW. 11 YEAR DAUGHTER DEAD FROM HYPOTHERMIA.” For the most part, even if this man wanted a fair trial….how’s he ever going to get one if slanderous & severely misconstrued statements were already pumped out to the masses? That man is in bitter anguish. It’s a “life sentence” if you ask me for this individual to have to spend the remainder of his life knowing his poor decision resulted in the…
The comments also indicate that people don’t know that sociopaths frequently get custody of children. One cannot assume that the parent who has custody is “providing for them.”
It is time for family courts to learn to assess sociopathy and its meaning for parenting. The very least they could do in the case of two sociopathic parents is to educate them about their defects. At least we should tell them, “Look, you are missing all of your decision making social brain, so don’t put yourself in a situation where you will have to choose between your child’s welfare and your own comfort!”
FYI AOL has a poll, I participated and got the following results:
Poll Results
Do you think a murder charge is warranted in this case?
No 47% 101,555
Yes 31% 66,279
I’m not sure 22% 46,384
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
ptsd says:
OMG DON’T MEAN TO BE TRITE AND DISRESPECTFUL!!! iI JUST CAN’T GET IT!!!!
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ptsd says:
SO I WILL LET THE MUSIC TAKE ME AWAY
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shabbychic says:
ptsd: Hi there, I’m glad you ordered all those books!! Wow! I had the Hare book, but in a moment of stupidity, when I thought I was healed, I got rid of it! Can you believe that? Then I went and got involved with another assclown. Now I have to buy it again! You are doing fine here, you are not “ruining” threads, it’s just like Oxy said, people come and go on this site. I’m going out tonight with some friends, but I’ll check back in later tonight or the next day. Enjoy the music!!!
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JaneSmith says:
Intruder alert…I think.
(not you, sweet shabby chic)
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learnthelesson says:
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ptsd says:
I am so sorry if I gave the impression that I am an intruder. In a sense I did feel like one by jumping in and spilling my thoughts of frustration, fear and shame(to name a few feelings)to a bunch of strangers.
I can understand wanting to protect this community from more pain and confusion. My posts were “sound bytes” as Oxy pointed out. My disjointed posting was due to a total meltdown(which I do often these days)fueled by nothing more than self pity which was fuel by nothing more than coffee, cigarettes and alcohol.
The strings of information I wrote were by no means fabricated or meant to harm anyone.
I did on some level feel like I was in a chat room. My apologies again to anyone who felt uncomfortable by my posts.
I will continue to read and sort through the mess I find myself in. Many thanks to shabbychic, blueskies and oxy!
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learnthelesson says:
ptsd-
I wasnt sure what you were feeling a few nights ago…I tried to reach out to you about your pets when you shared their names, just to get you to try to slow down and take a breather…but I dont think it was received too well.
I felt mostly confused, and then a bit uncomfortable ..but I was glad Oxy, Shabbychic and Blueskies were able to reach out to you on some level.
Thank you for your apology. Reading the articles here and all of the comments to the past articles really offer alot of insight and different viewpoints to help make one’s journey make more sense. Hope they are helpful to you too.
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ptsd says:
Well here’s something good that came out of my meltdown. Under the influence, I got brave enough to leave a message on the jerk’s old girlfriend’s answering machine. I live in a small town and we had the occasion to be in contact several years ago over something entirely unrelated. Also, last fall we happened to be eating in the same restaurant with our “partners” last fall. So she knew I was seeing her ex. I’ve wanted to contact her in the past but was afraid of being embarrassed if I found there was no huge problems with their relationship and I was afraid of aggravating my S. (I can truly call him that now) It also felt snoopy.
So, in comes the S’s ex to my shop this morning. I was half expecting her to give me hell for calling her in the state I was in, but nooo, she wanted to have the conversation when I was in a better frame of mind. Kudos to her!
It turns out she indeed went through all the same problems and then some too. She warned my several times that he had been violent with her and extremely strong when in that state. I saw glimpses of the potential to violence but he never followed through to physically harm me. I certainly saw the strength he applied to force entry into my home and business.
One of the things that hadn’t been evident to me was cheating. I just didn’t see any red flags there. Well, I still don’t know if he did or not, but she told me he had been calling her, texting her and creeping around her home for the last 6 years. He was actually calling her about once a month through the whole time we had been together. The last time she warned him: “One more time and I’m calling the police”. It was just before Christmas. I told her to please do because it would help in building the case against him.
Her advice upon leaving my shop was to move on, that I deserved better and it has to be absolutely no contact because he won’t even stop at that.
I am pleasantly blown away. Even though the new found betrayal hurts, I feel stronger in knowing the facts.
I still have a long way to go, no doubts. Peace
)
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ptsd says:
ltl: I seem to have a knack for posting over a post I haven’t seen. It took me most of the morning to get that formulated as I am in the shop. Not very productive for shop.
Thank you for accepting my apology. I am sorry but I do not even recall talking about my pets or that you responded to me. Would you tell me where I can find that post please?
btw my Peace was supposed to be accompanied by the old fashioned smiley face. It changed into an emoticon.
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learnthelesson says:
ptsd,
Im not sure where it is…you did jump around quite a bit on different threads… you just mentioned you had a cat and a dog, I have CRS, but I think your dogs name began with a “M”… anyway it was just a statement that you have two wonderful pets… if I come across that thread, Ill let you know…
Very interesting story about S’s ex. Good advice she gave you. Doesnt usually work out that way. Glad you feel stronger knowing the facts. Protect yourself, stay away, stay NC!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear PTSD,
I think the combo of the stress and alcohol explains the “sound bites” and some of the confusion. We’ve had some trolls come by here with “sound bites” that ended up being some trouble makers from time to time and some of the bloggers here are pretty sensitive to posts that are not the usual/
I know you didn’t ask for my advice on this, but I’m going to give it to you anyway, drop the alcohol. It doesn’t help the healing process, though I am glad that it did give you the courage to call his X..she gave you some good advice NO CONTACT, of any kind, and if he stalks you, call the cops.
I suggest that you go back through the archived articles here (they are on the left by month and subject) and read every last one, just the article for now, not all the comments, but you will get a great education.
Some of the books, the Betrayal Bond is one of the best, and other books listed here. Keep coming back here and blogging as well, but READ because KNOWLED DOES = POWER, and what we gave them is power and we have to take BACK our power. Healing isn’t a fast thing, because it starts out about them, but ends up being about US.
I’ve been here more than 2 years I think, I can’t actually remember when I joined LF, but it has saved my life I think, and been a crutch when I needed one because I felt like both legs were broken at times, but it kept me upright and on the road to healing when I had NO ONE who could truly comprehend what I was going through.
You are very welcome here and glad you found your way here, this is THE best support group and has more educational material that is right on than any other place on the net and there are a bunch of them. Some sites for “suvivors” are just another place for the Ps and dysfunctionals to wound us again, this place is a good one! (((hugs)))) and God bless.
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hens says:
This isn’t a chat room? Oh my…
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OxDrover says:
Dear Henry, BOINK!!! You bad guy you!!! LOL How in the world are you? Weather’s grimm today so I decided to stay home and not go to town, I don’t like gloomy out if I don’t have to do it. Need one more trip to the copy shop before mailing the stuf to the attorney, but got a few things I can do here so all I have to do after the copy shop is take it to the post office and slip it into one of those nifty new mailing boxes, pay the fee and ship it on the way tomorrow by noon.
Son D’s bio family has come down to this state for a funeral so he is going to that today and the house is quiet. Had company all weekend, loads of it actually! The boy who was in the back of the airplane in 2004 came by to visit on his way back to college yesterday. He graduates in May with his BS in Aviation, and he is also a deputy sheriff to earn money for college. Great kid and his burn scars on his face are looking better. The central part of his face was spared, but the sides and ears got it pretty bad, but he is still getting treatment to decrease the redness in the scars and is looking great! Can’t believe he is a cop now! He plans to continue and get his MBA as well and wants to be a corporate pilot, and is working some flying for some corporations too. That made me feel great!
Also the some of the young adult leaders for the Boy Scout Venturing Crew (ages 14-21 both sexes) came and spent the weekend with son D and were plotting things to do with the crew, and our local volunteer fire chief who is a great guy stopped by to visit. He was the fire chief all the years I was with the volunteer fire department. I hate to think about what will happen to our great fire department when he retires cause there isn’t anyone capable of taking his place. It is an important part of the community!
I retired after the aircraft crash, just couldn’t do it any more, and I sometimes feel guilty about retiring, but at the same time, I think it was BEST FOR ME! Most of my calls out were medical runs or trauma car crashes or motorcycle crashes and I’ve seen all the physical trauma I want to for the rest of my life, and had to put my own welfare before the FD’s. I am a trained and certified fire fighter, but usually didn’t go on fire calls except when we had big wild land fires and they needed a go-fer or someone to help set back fires. I let the young guys do the heavy stuff!
Well, is that enough CHAT fer ya? (((Hugs))) oxy
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shabbychic says:
ptsd: Hello! The post you placed about your pets is on this link… (it is about 7 or 8 posts up from the bottom of the page)…
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ment-64680
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ptsd says:
ltl:
She has been fortunate to have family around(males in particular) to deal with the XS when he was unwanted and she has been in a good relationship for 4 years.
It is a comfort to know I wasn’t the only one with this guy. I am so glad she took the time to share and encourage me.
What is CRS?
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ptsd says:
shabbychick:
Hello back! Thanks for the link. Be well.
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learnthelesson says:
ptsd -
CRS is something Oxy first introduced me to having been diagnosed with it herself…and then I diagnosed myself because its absolutely the case for me… “Cant Remember Shit!”
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ptsd says:
Oxy:
You are a fountain of words and wisdom! I started a 7 day cleanse today. No Alcohol, No Coffee and dare I say it? NoContact. Of course the NC is part of the forever and a day cleanse.
Thank you all for the second welcome. I haven’t tried any other sites. I guess God brought me here first.
My 5 new books should be here by the end of the week.
Hugs and Blessings to you Oxy and all.
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ptsd says:
ltl:
Oh—I needed that!!!!!!
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Rosa says:
I’m with you, Henry.
I think this place sort of becomes like a chat room…..in the late night hours.
Hopefully, at least a few people will know what I mean….
All I’m saying is that the conversation sometimes takes on a life of its own in the afterhours…..and I mean that in a GOOD way.
I nominate Erin Brock for Queen of LF Late Night!
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OxDrover says:
Dear PTSD,
I’m a retired nurse so let me make a small SUGGESTION, if you are doing much caffine, do NOT do it cold turkey—you will get the grandmother of ALL HEADACHES, take just a SIP of caffine drink of some kind if you start to get a head ache and over 2-3 days ween yourself off without the head ache. I used to do a LOT of caffine and I did a cold turkey one time and I thought I was coming off BIG BAD DRUGS, I got SICK. Recently my son and and I have cut WAY down on caffine, and we did it gradually so now we are having less than the equivalent of 1 cup of coffee per day, the rest is de-caf or non-caf drinks.
GOOD for you, on the no alcohol, it may “put you to sleep” but it actually keeps you from getting healthy sleep. and NO CONTACT is the start of the REST OF YOUR GOOD LIFE!
Good for you!
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ErinBrock says:
ROSA….
Yeah…yeah…yeah…..
I have no defense….you nailed me!!!
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kim frederick says:
EB, calling…EB…Is EB in the house?
I’m ready for a little late night humor/therapy and I find that I am alone, with my thumb up my nose.
why, when I call EB, do I just hear the echo of my own voice boincing off cyber walls and I ask myself did I miss the sound of someone saying…EB has left the building…
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ErinBrock says:
EB IS IN THE HOUSE!
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kim frederick says:
Hi EB. Do you remember this great old classic oldie but ghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmQsCRFycaQoodie?
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ErinBrock says:
Ms. Kimmy…..I’m not sure if I can offer any humor…..cuz I got the recon guns fired up…..and the adrenaline is a pumping…..
Just got wind that the S is in the area…..
Gotta find out WHY…….
I know the tsunami didn’t wash him ashore…..
I hope to friggen hell he hasn’t moved back here……IT IS THE FIRST OFTHE MONTH AND ALL!
That wouldn’t be good for him!
I’m thinking of all sorts of ways to divert him……already know where he’s staying…..
But….being the first of the month….it gives me pause to think he may be baaaaaaccccckkkkkk……..
for more punishment.
Got the police on house check…….
Had a weird gal ‘stop’ by last night…..saying she was a friend of my sons…..spent the day with him yesterday….and she just so happened to be from the islands……
I was EB nice to her…..and invited her in……
she declined…..just had to let her know…..don’t fuck with mamma darling……
I asked son….how in the hell did she know where we lived….if you just met her yesterday.?????
He sat there in a quandry…….
Hmmmmmmmm suspicious…….I think she’s a troll……..
The kids know better than to give out ANY info…..ANY,ANY ANY……
AND ANYONE who is ANYONE…..knows better than to just pop on over to the BROCK household……without first noticing us…..
OR Mamma BROCK will certainly call the cops and let you answer to them……
I’ve called the cops on two of their youth pastors….I’ts now become a joke with the youth groups……
So……..HERE WE GO…….I think he may be thinking he’s gonna do a dig session or something….because he sure wouldn’t come around here for kicks…..
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ErinBrock says:
The link won’t work….
But…..I too suffer from that ‘initial’ disease……so much so that I can’t remember the initials that it stands for……but it’s 3 letters….
SHIT!
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kim frederick says:
okay EB, here;s the link, but first, let me reach into my bag of tricks for a rage appropriate one, back in a few…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmQsCRFycaQ
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kim frederick says:
EB, After I read your post about the possibility that the spaths back, I immediatly thought of Queens, “Another One Bites the Dust”, so went there and listened….it sounded a little to psychopathic, so I choose this for you instead;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
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ptsd says:
Oxy,
I am a chartered herbalist and work in the natural health field and do know the possible effects of cleansing toxins from the body. Heavy coffee consumption is a no no, so I’ve never done it. Two and a half cups every morning for the last 6 years. Organic at that. Caffeine free for 4 years before that, then it gradually became a part of my morning routine again.
I used to be so disciplined with my diet and supplements you would have called me a die hard. I think it’s part of my personality. Once I commit to something I am a bit tenacious.
This cleanse includes herbs to detoxify blood, kidneys and colon. I’ve made a big pot of soup to lighten up the diet for the week too. The fibres help you feel satiated.
After the news I got today, I realize NC just has to be. His history is definitely writing on the wall. It still hurts, but a sane person just doesn’t go back for more. I’m fortunate he is in jail and probably will be for at least 6 months. That gives me time to heal and move on, I hope. Ah the hope, that was a big part of the problem.
I read somewhere that you have recurring shingles Oxy. May I offer some help to you? L-Lysine is an amino acid that fights herpes zoster (shingles), which you may know is the same virus that causes chicken pox. L-Lysine really works if taken for a period of time. People have great success using it to fight the cold sore virus as well.
Peace o)
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OxDrover says:
Dear Ptsd,
Hope your cleansing goes well and that you start to feel better physically and emotionally as well. I’m on a weight loss diet now, and watching what I eat and all the fiber and fluids making sure I get enough of eveyrthing and eat “healthy” rather than going on a crash diet. Weather is getting better so the exercise will get easier as the weather improves. I’ve got great places to walk, and my caniine companions to go with me.
You are so right, NC is a MUST DO, and that means not only physically but emotionally as well, no checking face book or reading texts or anything else—and no talking to anyone about what he is up to now either. Believe it or not those will really rip the scabs off and open up those wounds too.
Glad you are feeling better! Good luck!
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ptsd says:
Oxy,
Glad you’re doing much better with acyclovir. I presume it’s a prescription drug. Red wine is the only thing I self medicate with. And yes I do know the dangers of self medication.
I am glad that there is an organization keeping me posted of his jail time. I want to know when he is out even though I’m sure I will eventually know. I am resolved to no contact AND immediately calling the police if he contacts me. They will have his worthless ass back in jail if he does.
I’ve made that mistake so many times which is why the one officer decided to bully me stating that I was just encouraging the XS by being suckered in over and over. I’ve been reading all these posts and the articles and I can’t believe how similar these guys behave. Sleeping outside in freezing temps, kicking them out only to have them pop a window open and jump back in!! That one cracked me up because it is such crazy behaviour that I allowed too!!!
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7stepstoheaven says:
Hey peeples! Just sayin hi… The one thing I love about this site is that even if a story was posted a year ago, people will still be making observations and posting on it.
It’s not as fast as a chat room but that’s fine with me because it takes me a lot of time to absorb things.
This blizzard story I had not heard. Why do people like this even have children? It reminded me of something my mother told me – that when she was 7 or 8 months pregnant with my younger sister, MY FATHER locked her out of the house in the middle of winter. And then how Christian Gerhardstreiter locked the young girl out of her own house because he couldn’t be bothered to get up and let her in. That was a really great acting job, he managed to make him charismatic and creepy at the same time. It makes it abundantly clear that the phrase “left out in the cold” is not just a figure of speech! I used to go surfing in the middle of winter (in a wetsuit- emphasis on “wet”) but nowadays I can’t even take a cold draft or too much air-conditioning!
I was glad to see that they charged the kids’ uncle as well as the father. That is crazy behavior, and I don’t see any reason it would not be FIRST DEGREE MURDER. If you push someone out of a boat in the middle of the ocean, I think you would know what would happen, even as you sail away and say “Well, he was treading water last time I saw him!! I even left him directions to the nearest island – because I am a responsible person! I never expected him to drown. So sorry to hear that!” Please, enough ridiculous fake apologies!
How would 2 young children even know which direction to go in? Especially if they never did it before. And how long would it actually take for children to walk 10 miles, snowstorm or not? If they walked a mile every 30 minutes it would take them 5 HOURS! Indefensible! Oxy, I think your little “scenario” hit me right away as sounding true to life. You must be psychic:
—————
“I can only imagine the man’s rage when he was having to take the kids to his X’s and got stuck, so he was probably screaming and ranting about how much trouble he had gone to and now look at the situation and it was all the kids’ faults and he wasn’t even going to take them to their mothers after all even when he got the car out. So the kids, wanting to see their mom probably volunteered to walk and he just screamed at them, “Okay, go ahead!”
—————
Those kids probably left because they wanted, on some level, to just get the hell away from these people. They would rather walk ten miles in a blinding snowstorm than stay there with their abusive father. I mean, he already had them trained! How many kids when told to do this, or given a choice, would unquestionably obey? Most children would cry and get upset and regress a little if told they should do something so uncomfortable, scary, and dangerous – that is what struck me about this story – they were more afraid of THEIR FATHER than of the blizzard conditions. I know as a child I would do almost anything to keep from making my mother angry, even deny my own comfort, needs and emotions. After all, wasn’t it my job to make sure SHE was comfortable at all times?
Hey ptsd – you sound like a pretty cool person. I also listen to a lot of music, and have been known to be “dancin’ with myself!” when nobody’s looking! It’s the one sure-fire thing that can boost my mood and rise above what ever shithole I happen to be standing in.
I am pretty new here (4 months) and it takes time to get the feel of the community. This is a place where people DO want to hear the ugly truth, spare no details. Your truth, we learn. I can see where people here might be a bit skittish if someone new comes in but is not open to the process, because this is probably the only place where we can present and share whatever godawful secrets we have been keeping. We can tell it like it is, and be supportive to each other. I actually like having the time to digest the information, articles and comments, because the information here is like a great library of the layers within the human soul – from the blackest black to the white-heat light of the hottest star. It has for me started a spiritual cleansing, and has helped me make some decisions that have been a long time coming.
Oxy, you rule, and I would just say please give me the skillet any time you may think it’s needed! And you always have an amazing story to tell – are you hiding superwoman beneath your unassuming farm-girl overhauls?? What was up with that story about the cows hazing one of their group? I would never think that cows would do something so violent, even if it was to give a smackdown to an unruly herd member.
I haven’t been posting much in the last few weeks because I am also doing a lot of reading – the self-help books and psych stuff on this and other websites.
In mid-january I went NC with my mother. It wasn’t really something I had planned on doing, because it would completely leave me with no contact with the rest of my family. But when that lightbulb goes off in your head, you can’t turn away from it. It’s like OXY seeing the devastating effect of car crashes – one you’ve see that, you can never UNSEE it. But you can make the decision not to see any more accidents. I started to see things much more objectively than ever, even though I was in one of the worst depressions I ever had. I got to the point where I was writing my goodbye letter in my head, because I felt so hopeless about everything.
My mother is very narcissisitic and can be full of a lot of venom and rage, although 99% of the time she will shower you with love and praise or make your favorite meal or whatever she does to suck you in. But for the last few months I have been just really paying attention to some of the things that have come out of her mouth, and it’s pretty shocking. She’s very manipulative and passive-aggressive, and takes no responsibility for anything.
When you grow up in a dysfunctional environment, that’s what you think is normal. It has actually surprised me at every turn – like how the hell did I not know how abusive she was? When I first went to a therapist 20 years ago, I told her a few stories about nasty things my mother had done, and she told me “You were very neglected as a child.”
This was surprising to me – can you imagine? I was 33 years old and had no clue. I’m a smart person, but my mother manipulated me to the point where I just thought she was great!
She’s like a 3-year-old child, she has temper tantrums to get her way, and controls you with anger or fake nurturing. It’s very confusing growing up in an environment like that.
I think the turning point for me was reading Dr. Becker’s blog about “the silent treatment.” I read that and thought – holy crap, does he know my mother??? It totally freaked me out. I did not return her phone calls or speak to her for a couple of weeks, and got an angry message “This silent treatment you’re giving me is just not cutting it!” It’s all about her, all the time. She’s not too concerned, just angry because she’s not getting any attention!
When I started to feel better, coming out of the depression, I just realized that I cannot live my life that way. I felt like a 200 ton mountain was off my back. I have FM and my pain level got better! I always made excuses for her and tried to rationalize her behaviour – she had a hard life and got a raw deal etc. But the more I look back and see what her decisions and behavior were over the years, I had two main observations:
1. She is emotionally blind and doesn’t really seem to know right from wrong, in a moral sense. She did what she wanted, she pursued her pleasure at the expense of her children. I cannot ignore that any more because it’s in my face. She likes to pretend that everything is just dandy even if she and everyone else are going to hell in a handbasket. She could turn invalidation into an art form.
2. That she was possibly the shallowest person I ever met.
In our last phone conversation, we discussed the fact that my brother had lied to us and his new GF, hiding the fact that he was still married to the woman we thought was his EX-wife 3 years ago. The GF found out accidentally because the ex/wife (most definitely a P) stalked her on Facebook and let her have it. I said to my mother, “You know the fact that not only did he lie, but expected us not to tell the new GF when we found out – that makes me really angry, because we were supposed to be a party to this lie (we found out he was still married before his GF did).”
She actually said “Well, it doesn’t make me angry because it’s got nothing to do with me.” ???!!!!??
In other words, she has no problem with shutting her eyes to egregiously immoral behavior, and no problem being party to it, keeping secrets just to save face. I stopped trusting her that day, as I have already stopped trusting the rest of my family. I began to see the root of so much dysfunctional behavior in my siblings. I began to realize that going NC with these people would be no great loss.
Why on earth would I waste any of my precious time with people who are abusive, invalidating, untrustworthy, and mean???
I decided it was time for me to get a life.
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OxDrover says:
Dear 7steps,
WOW! GF!!!! Your post said a mouth full! Yep, going NC with them somehow at first seems totally impossible, or at least it did to me, and sounds like to you too, but then as the CHAOS becomes more clear and we start getting out of the FOG we realize that these have never been healthy or uplifting or validating relationships build on mutual respect. We realize that not only do they not respect us or validate us, they actively DIS-RESPECT us and invalidate our feelings. Yea, you are right, WE NEED THIS WHY?
I’m glad that you have broken free of this toxic relationship(s) and that you are feeling better as a result.
DNA does NOT a family make! MUTUAL Love, respect and kindness is what makes a family! Congratulations and TOWANDA!!!! ((((hugs)))))
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silvermoon says:
my voice is small today OX,
As all of the weight of the past pulls through the healing from the SPATH, I turn and look and wonder, how with the sincerest and fiercest love for my son, I don’t look as awful to him for not having stood up sooner to his father, for having let my self get caught in really hard times and now this.
When we allow ourselves to be treated by these disordered people what it turns us into is not pretty. Others see it even when we don’t understand it and while we writhe and thrash to survive, it has its effects on other relationships.
Until WE change, how can it not be possible that all of these things reflect on us who were willing to allow it to be no matter how innocent the attempts to cope and function in that chaos were.
This is the effect that is driving me UP the wall!
The not so great stuff that went on for me as a kid caused me to adapt to life in ways that just opened the door for these creeps. And then I got twisted into some really awful struggles to survive emotionally up to and including this last disaster.
I think this is a theme we hear over and over here.
Is there a blog site for this stuff that would be approriate for our teens?
Why wouldn’t we want our chiildren to learn the way we are here at LF, to feel the support etc?
Well, it might need to be something different than exactly this. But if anyone agrees, I’d be up for making it happen. I’m just not sure what IT would have to be.
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7stepstoheaven says:
Oh Oxy!
When I looked down and saw your post I swear I started to cry! You are now an honorary member of my new non-dna family!
When I did not return my mother’s phone calls she called a friend of mine WHO LET HET HAVE IT! She said “How can you go away and leave your daughter alone on Christmas Day?”
You have no idea how sick she’s been! I’ve never seen her like this!”
I was actually very touched that my friend stood up for me, because I hadn’t told her anything about what was going on.
She knew how horrendously depressed I was. My mother only lives about 6 miles away. If your child was ill or something was going on wouldn’t you GO TO THEIR HOME TO CHECK ON THEM???
Instead I got angry messages. I realize my whole life I have expected people to be angry with me for the stupidest reasons. And most of the time they don’t get angry. When I was a kid if she was angry with any of us she would refuse to look at you or speak to you, meanwhile going through the house slamming doors. To this day I have a startle response every time I hear a door slam or suddenly open.
Oh god I am beyond exhausted. This last 2 months have just taken EVERYTHING out of me…
Without LF I could never have done this. I realize that their are people who care about me and I should spend my time with people who are supportive and want the best for me. I keep waiting for the guilt trip to come slamming down on me, but it actually came down to my survival – literally!
When it came right down to it, it was me or her. I have always sacrificed my own well-being to help others who may or may not deserve it. This came down as actually something I had to do for my own self-preservation,
I still worry about being judged as a person who abandons her mother, because she’s 77 years old and the rest of my siblings live out of state. You know – she’s your mother and the only one you’ll ever have and she won’t be around forever. I’m afraid people will judge me harshly for cutting contactwith her. But I am done.
I need about a thousand year long nap!
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OxDrover says:
Dear 7Steps,
Well Join the crowd, sweetie! YEP, my “poor pitiful sweet, kind and caring Christian” (NOT!!) egg donor will be 81 come this spring. I am not only her oldest child, I am HER ONLY CHILD, and I am sure the community has heard an EAR FULL–she sends this crap out by her “maid” who is a DUMB hateful spiteful witch who has a “master’s degree” and the only job she can get is cleaning my egg donor’s toilet for 7$ an hour or driving her around so she can get the gossip scoop about how I am OUT TO GET MY MAMMY’S MONEY! Well, you know, funny thing is I would rather live in a tent and eat out of a McDona’d's dumpster than take a dollar from her or be in any way beholden to her for ANYTHING.
People can believe what makes them feel good, most of the people who klnow us very well at all know about the 18 months I took care of my step dad for 18 months almost 24/7 (very willingly) and also the egg donor for most of that time as well, so the rest of them can say and believe what they want; if they are gossipiing about me, they are leaving some other poor soul alone!
Just because your egg donor gave birth to you and contributed her DNA to you does not mean that you are supposed to take any chit that she wants to give you, or to be disrespected and verbally or emotionally abused. It isn’t likely that she is going to change now any more than mine is.
Funny thing is, you mentioning about being sick and no one checking on you. It is odd that I had “forgotten” about some of the devalues-and-discards and “not speaking” to me that my egg donor had done to me to punish me, and once we lived in a small town (about 3,500 people) and I was sick’er’n a dog, and both my kids were and egg donor wasn’t talking to me. I had the flu, and both kids sick, I couldn’t even climb the stairs to the bedroom, was on the couch, and had to call an elderly aunt to come get me some groceries and bring them and set them on the porch (rather than have her come in and take a chance on catching flu)
Looking back now, after playing the game of “let’s pretend none of this happened” for so long, and remembering these episodes that I had BURIED like they DIDN’T happen, is in retrospect, almost FUNNY that I actually did PRETEND well enough that I didn’t consciously recall most of those episodes until recently.
I’ve gotten really PICKY though about who I give a rat’s behind what they think about me. “Judge me?” WHO has the RIGHT to “judge me” for how I treat my egg donor or don’t treat her for that matter.
I’m fortunate that my egg donor canceled my Power of Attorney over any of her business or medical care. So, you know, if I don’t have any legal authority to care for her, I also don’t have any RESPONSIBILITY TO EITHER. As far as you are cooncerned, maybe the REASON the sibs moved off was to get away from “mommie dearest” and to leave her to you, like a WHITE ELEPHANT.
As far as I am concerned when I turned 18 she no longer had any legal responsibility toward me, and the day she tried to punish me by taking awayy my POA, and giving it to my son C and his P-then-wife, and giving money to the dupes and Ps, well, you know, that was the greatest gift she ever gave me, but it sure as hell backfired on her.
I will never forget that SMUG LOOK, that self righteous look, when she had everyone eating out of her hand (she thought) and didn’t “need” me any more, then BAM!!! It all fell apart and she was BETRAYED, just like I had told her she would be.
Then she told me, said it OUT LOUD, and it ecohed like the “tolling bell”—”let’s just pretend none of this happened and start over again.” That was when it CLICKED FOR ME. I knew we had always DONE that, but when she VERBALIZED IT it was like the light went on.
To this day, I think she thinks I am just doing this NC for some period of time to punish her, because that is what she has always done to ME, and she would expect at some point that I will come back and either Apologize to HER, or I will come back “pretending it never happened.” I can’t do that any more.
I guess I am like the woman who caught her husband cheating for the 100th time, and ALL AT ONCE, I AM DONE. Instant OFF switch, no way to get it back on. Just as you said, 7 Steps, “I am done.” Sure, at the time it HURT, but no now. Sure, I wish I had a great mom that I could be proud of or that was proud of me. I don’t have. I got over it. Sometimes life sucks! Life ain’t fair, but you know, I did ahve a wonderful “daddy” though he was not my DNA and he loved me, and he was proud of me, and I have some wonderful memories of that relationship. And if there is a question I wonder “what I should do” all I have to say to myself to get the answer is “What would Daddy have done?” I KNOW HOW Daddy felt about the P-son of mine, the last reference he made to him was when P-son wrote him a lying letter blaming the theft of Daddy’s gun (that P-son stole) on his dead friend. Daddy read the letter, made a SPITTING SOUND and threw it on the ground like trash. I wish I had paid more attention to what Daddy said when he was here, but at least I can look back and realize he knew what was going on. He just didn’t BOINK me over the head with it. I wish I had, but probably wouldn’t have listened either. LOL But I’m listening now, Daddy! Thanks! LOL
Well, 7 Steps, I’m happy for you that you have finally realized that DNA isn’t what makes a family, and yes, there are some great NON-DNA “family members” here at LF, and if it wasn’t for them I wouldn’t be where I am today in my healing path! They have held my hand, cheered me on, and kept me from feeling ENTIRELY ALONE at times.
Maybe one day Donna will have a big LF convention and we can all get together for a biggggggg GROUP HUG!!!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Silvermoon,
You know, I never thought about a “teeanged version” of LF. There is probably a real need for that.
I know that Donna puts in a LOT of time reading here and monitoring what goes on and to keep “peace” when a troll comes by and starts creating chaos. Fortunately it doesn’t happen very often here, and when it does, she puts a STOP to it. I imagine it would be almost a 24/7 job of monitoring a teenblog though.
Actually, I think you might contact Donna and/or Dr. Leedom and see about their suggestions (you can find their direct e mail addresses in the author section) I think that there might be a group of folks that would contribute to such a group. I can think of a couple of people that I know, one being a therapist. I think there would have to be some reliable monitors for such a site.
I dson’t have the computer skills to set up a site, but would help with monitoring a site and there are probably others here who would help as well. Donna has the experience so she would be a great resource I think, so ask her and Dr. Leedom has a site and others, so that might be a great way to get one started. At the very least it is an idea. ((((Hugs))))
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geminigirl says:
Dearest Oxy, So glad our back! I was the same I kinda dropped out fora little while as I was getting”troll vibes” and thought Id give myselfa bit of space. Hows your diet going? Like you, Im more adopting a better diet choice, more salads, salmon and other fish,less carbs, wholegrain breads [but less of it} berry fruits, etc. I feel great and have lost 2 Ks!{so far.]
Im so grateful to you and lots of others on LF for really switchng on the light i my head, re my abusive ex, and abusive spath kids.For almost 30 years Ive put up with all kinds of S–t, and 26 of these years, since being remarried, Ive turned myself inside out with False guilt that I had to leave their Dad in 1982 . Hell, they were 17 and 19, hardly babies, my older spath daughter left when her youngest was 5, with no apparent guilt whatsoever!Like you did for ages, I kept up the malignant false hope that one day theyd change, love me, be nice to me, say sorry for all the crap behaviour,
HELLO!?? Hasnt happened yet!Never will!
And now that David and I are being treated with love, kindness and respect by our new Iranian “kids” we see just what weve been missing by contrast. YOUR RIGHT, family are those who treat you with love, caring and respect, nothing to do with DNA! We are SO brainwashed that as a Mother we have to endlessly forgive, put up with endless crap from our spath kids,{before we even knew they WERE spaths!}Im STILL having to deal with the monkey on my shoulder saying,”Call yourself a Mother? Dont you worry about your daughter? ”
hell, all her messes, both financial and other , she got HERSELF into with no help! I have baled her out to the tune of over $10,000 over the last few years, NO MORE!!
Like you with your second son,{the one who lied to you} I feel Ive been kidding myself re my SIL. he is irresponsible, {not as bad as her tho} he lies, he is undependable,-was supposed to bring the kids over Xmas or N.Year, didnt happen. What cut me to the quick was to discover he and the kids plus his new girlfriend were 10 minutes a way from out place on N.Years eve, and didnt even ring us up, much less call to see us/Ive seen them twice since 8th Dec.,2008.I dont think hesa spath, but I do think he is narcissistic,and weak, and he is an ex pot smoker. I do still get the odd twinge of guilt re my older spath D, but when it happens, I remind myself of some of the cruel, hateful andhurtful things she has done to me,{none of which she acknowledges ever happened, by the way, more gaslighting}. I didnt even KNOW what gaslighting was till I found LF. talk about light bulbs going off!I know that for my menatl, emotional and financial well-being, I CANNOT afford to speak to her or see her again, I am so scared of being sucked in to enabling her again.I do still worry what will become of her in 5 or so years, when her looks have started to fade, and shes finally pissed off all her good friends who got sick of being used. HEY, not my problem any more!!
What Im finding re peeling layers of the onion of awareness of what Ive ALLOWED them to do to me all these years, is that under every layer of onion is a fat layer of fresh pain! To be worked thru again! No short cuts!!Thanks again Oxy, you are a beacon of light, sanity, refreshing honesty, toughness, and rare courage!! TOWANDA to you gal!Love, and {{HUGS!!}} Gem.XX
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OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
Thank you sweetie!
Well, my diet is going well. I actually haven’t weighed, but I know I am doing great cause I can tell by the FIT of my clothes. I’m going to weigh once a week now and just Keep on with the good diet!
Today was cloudy but lovely and I got outside and “detailed” the inside of my truck (cleaned and polished) no sense washing the outside yet, wiill just get rain tomorrow I think or maybe tonight. Ah, the joys of living on an unpaved road! But at least there isn’t any DUST!
Son D got a call from his younger bio-sister today and he just lit up. She is in Rwanda doing a “year abroad” study and just seeing the world and having a great time. It was odd, as I listened to him talk to her on the telephone, I could hear the LOVE in his voice. From the words of the conversation I couldn’t even tell what it was about but I could HEAR THE LOVE just in the tone of the voice!
He and I talked about that after the call finished and you know, I got to thinking about that TONE OF VOICE, that LOVEVOICE, and you know if someone doesn’t talk to you in a way that demonstates that LOVE in the way they talk to you, what’ya need it for?
Oh, sure, everyone gets cranky now and then (yes, even perfect me! LOL) and sometimes even ANGRY, but if you are talking to someone you LOVE, even if you are as ANGRY as a “mad hornet” you do NOT talk to someone you love like they are some stray dog that just tore into your garbage for the 10th time and scattered it up and down the street!
You do not throw things at them, you do not punch them, you do not tell them you hate them, you still treat them with respect.
So what is that old saying, about if “someone tells you what they think of you, (by how they treat you) BELIEVE THEM!”
I realize it has been a long time coming for both of us Gem, but we are on the right track now. The psychopath-x-son just turned 39 this week, so my kiddies are not much younger than yours. Middle aged men, actually! Giving me trouble since he was 15-16 and Felonies since he was 17, and murder by the time he was 20. There’s an old country and western song called “Mama Tried” and it goes “I turned 21 in prison doing life without parole, but mama tried to raise me better…..” and I know Gem that you and I both tried to “raise’em better” than what they turned out to be.
I’m sorry your SIL has disappointed you about seeing your GCs too. Maybe next holiday you can go pick them up and keep them for an over night, or just keep telephoning, and sending cards etc. so they don’t forget you. Actually, there was a time when I LOOKED SO FORWARD to having grandkids, but actually I am glad now that I DON’T HAVE ANY biological ones. My husband’s kids and grandkids (and great grandkids–2) do not physically live close but we FB, talk, and e mail and visit when we can!
I am grateful for my adopted son D, and feel that ,like Job, God has given me “children of the heart” for my old age!
Before my husband died, in the evenings we would sit and talk after dinner, and read or watch a movie, and we would go over the day and activities, and one of the things we enjoyed so very much was to talk about D and how he was BLOSSOMING. My husband was a natural teacher and teaching had always been a part of his love of flying and anything else he did, and D was such a wonderful student, sucking my husband’s brain dry, wanting to learn! It was wonderful for both of them, the teacher who wanted to teach, and the student who wanted to learn.
D used to walk by and giggle at the “old folks holding hands.” Dear Sweet Gem, sit there and hold your David’s hands, and talk about the people who love you and treat you with love! That’s what’s important now. Those other people are gone, it’s time we started focusing more on the people we love than the people who never loved us. ((((Hugs)))))
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conomo says:
7 Steps,
Music Is a universal language! I almost always practice my dance moves by meself but can rip up a dance floor when in the right mood too. Old time rocknroll and hip hop(I try anyways).
I’m with you when it comes to the cold. I need polar gear when the snow flies here. Pretty much go into hibernation.
This article was heartbreaking and maddening. The injustice in the world sucks big time. I think Oxy said somewhere about a drunken mother drowning her kids only got 2 years and then someone else got 6 years for what was more likely an accident taking 1 person’s life.
I was a little disturbed at how I related to some of the things you talked about happening with your family. That’s somewhere I may have to go someday. I believe there were secrets kept about my childhood for the sake of appearances and saving face. For now I am merrily spared of any real remembrances.
My contact with my sister who judged my relationship with my recent xs has been non existent since november and my mom and I maintain fairly superficial contact. They have no idea how the situation has escalated in the last two months with the xs. I choose not to share cause I just don’t need to give them amunition to shoot me back with. Seems pretty self defeating to give someone the bullets when they have the gun pointed and ready to shoot.
Anyways, I am so thankful for all I have gleaned from reading on this site and the wonderful people that have offered support and share their experiences. And that includes you 7 Steps.
I have never been good at receiving compliments or accepting care for that matter. Too humble and strong for all that. But I take your introduction as a compliment and do so appreciate it. I wish you continued healing and health on your journey! Keep on dancin girl!
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ErinBrock says:
This article is for Warrior…….
Its true, it soooooooo true.
Remain strong darlen……keep it up! Your doing great……
Expect a lowpoint, and PREPARE FOR IT!!!
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ErinBrock says:
OMG….
I was looking for old posts of Warriors to ‘show’ her…..what she wrote before she went wishy/washy…..
And low and behold….I came across my own….on a thread I brought back upin March.
I posted on March 1, 2010 above…..and Kim dedicated a song to me….another one bites the dust/ Queen.
I also talked about a troll I thought the spath had sent when he was in town….she showed up at my house, never met her and son had met her that day at the ski resort….coincidently…..and she CAME TO MY HOUSE!
Heres the ironcy of this post…..this was the day spath was ARRESTED!!! And kimmies dedicating another one bites the dust.
As I’m freaking out because I had gotten wind spath was in town…..and I HATED my parents and they were doing their usual….and the night before…..this troll shows up at my house….
NOW IT”S CLEAR…..where/who/why this chick was hanging on my son……she asked him if she could have his ski pass for her ‘uncle’ who was in town…..YEAH….UNCLE SPATH!
Spath was trying to have kid busted for loaning out his ski pass…..and my BRILLIANT kiddo….didn’t fall for it…..because he didn’t want to get in trouble!!!! YEAH KIDDO…..shut the spath right on down!
Jr. hasn’t heard from this girl, who mysteriously ‘found’ our house, I saw her driving by 5-6 times on my security monitor before she stopped….just kept circleing……and then parked and knocked…..and I waited for her and her friend to leave and I DRILLED them….because I didn’t recognize them…..and they were VERY VAGUE….and it raised my neck hair…..it was also late at night….
So…..anyways, sorry to go on and on….but I just found this and it sent my head reeling….
The fact of spathass being in Jail and putting the troll together….
She was from Maui, just arrived in town (hmmmm) He just came from Maui (hmmmmm) just arrived in town….
He was hoping to use kids ski pass and then keep it/turn it in as a fraud….BETCHA!!!!!
Kimmie….you had NO IDEA HOW RIGHT ON YOU WERE THAT NIGHT WITH YOUR SONG DEDICATION!!!!!
HA!
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ErinBrock says:
Sheesh.
The first time spaths uncle called me was when spath was in jail too!
INTERESTING….
He called to inform me of kids inhertance. I thought it was awful quick….
He said spath doesn’t speak to him…..he’s upset with him….now I know why….HE DIDN”T BAIL HIM OUT….but uncle left out that minor detail.
This was also why uncle was asking if WE were okay….
And ‘what’ happened…in my marriage….
HA ….he already suspected……he knew spath was in jail!!!!
He might have been digging to see if I knew anything…..
and my words were perfect at the time, because I DIN”T know…..
Oh….how things work out for a reason!!!
I gotta go to bed….way toooooo late!!
Nighty night….
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miss k says:
Replying to original post:They say drugs can cause these types of behaviours but how can one tell if a person is a sociopath versus a typical drug addict?
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ErinBrock says:
The behaviors run deep.
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freemama says:
Hard day today. Got interrogatories back from my lawyer, and the sociopath is now in a “committed relationship” with a woman who he met on January 9th. I don’t recall him making any sort of mental note about when we met, so that hurt. My ds had been saying he was “sleeping at her house” for quite a while, and naturally I was curious to see who he hooked his talons into… stupid internet! She’s a photographer, and there’s picture of my ds from APRIL, though he swore to the court he would never even introduce my ds to a new woman until he’d been “committed” for 6 months, so you can do the math on that. She has a nice house, is apparently wealthy, and I’m sure she’s very nice because that’s the women he goes for (before destroying their lives, that is). The worst part is there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Mutual restraining orders took care of that. He also wrote in his papers that he’s many thousands of dollars in debt besides the house he forced into foreclosure, and is planning on declaring bankruptcy. He further wrote that he had to borrow $8,000 from his mother’s credit card to get a lawyer when I “tried to pin a restraining order against me”. (The one he lied his teeth about in court to get out of when I didn’t have an attorney). The woman’s on a fixed income, has MS, and will undoubtedly lose everything, but LOOK! Here’s my new rich girlfriend who I will exploit to take care of all that! AND she’ll help me raise my son because I’m too incompetent and uncaring to waste any time or money doing myself.”
I am really sick over all this. How do these guys get away with it over and over?? He should be in jail over what he did to me, not working his next victim into bankruptcy and despair. God knows what kind of lies he’s telling her about me.
How do you deal with this? How do you let go???
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one_step_at_a_time says:
freemama – i don’t know how we let go – one of the things i am still sick over is that she will NEVER stop. but i think asking the question is a darn good place to start.
i have come to know however, that the antidote for the destruction wrought in my life is to live the best life i can. i am challenged in many ways and this will not be easy, but it IS the antidote.
and maybe one answer is: we don’t have control over them. simple. we can’t stop them. like i (not so) jokingly say, ‘spaths: can’t live with them, and can’t kill them with impunity.’
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OxDrover says:
Dear Freemama,
Yes, it is frustrating, and you know that poor woman he is with now is just in the early stages of her victimhood, and even if you could warn her, she is so love-bombed she would not believe a word you said. HE will soak her, ruin her, use and abuse her until she is used up, then he will move on.
Accepting that they “get away with” this sort of thing, that their lies are believed while your truths are ignored or CALLED LIES…it is difficult. We want vindication, we want validation, we want closure, we want it to END!~ Sometimes the only closure we get is what we give to ourselves…accepting that it JUST IS, and we can’t control it, we can’t change it, we can just KNOW OUR OWN TRUTH. We can give ourselves justice and validation.
I used to think I needed validation from others for reality to be real, but no I realize MY OWN VALIDATION is more than good enough. It is FINE! It is RIGHT! It is HEALING!
I don’t have a kid(s) with a psychopath, but the Ps have taken away people I loved, persecuted people I loved, and it hurts….I can’t even imagine how I would feel if I had to “co parent” with one of these monsters. (((hugs)))) and God bless.
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ErinBrock says:
Warrior:
I thought of you when I saw this.
There is alot of great info on this site in regards to divorce…..even state by state info.
The only thing to keep in mind is the ‘cooperation’ from a spath…..guarenteed to be NILL.
http://firstwivesworld.com/res.....ng-divorce
Divvying Up Everything from Family Silver to DVDs During Divorce
Sweating The Small Stuff (or not)
Posted to Resource Articles by Janell Weinstein on Fri, 02/06/2009 – 11:16am
In a divorce, it is very important that you take a practical approach when dividing up your marital “stuff” (or as we lawyers like to call it, “personal property”). It makes no sense to spend more money on attorney’s fees or appraisal fees than your “stuff” is worth.
Therefore, heed this Warning: If you are arguing over who gets the “Endless Love” CD or a hairbrush, you and your soon-to-be ex are spiraling out of control. Yes, your “stuff” may have great sentimental value. And yes, telling your soon-to-be ex that you want something that you know he or she will want—just to annoy them—may give you some sense of satisfaction at the time. But you have to stop and regroup.
The most effective approach is for you and your soon-to-be ex to make a list of what you want to take with you after the divorce. Exchange your lists and negotiate the items you both want. In this day and age of technology, this is no reason to fight over photos anymore. Just make copies! And when it comes down to the fishing pole, just give it to him. You can even flip a coin for the unresolved items, especially if these items do not have substantial value.
If you have personal property of great value and you cannot agree on the value and how to divide the items, you will have to get them appraised. You will incur appraisal fees and probably counsel fees in order to resolve the issue.
In most jurisdictions, if you brought personal property into the marriage, these items will be considered separate property and not subject to division. If you purchased items during your marriage, these items will be considered marital property, and are subject to division.
If you inherited personal items during your marriage, these are considered separate property and not subject to division. If you received gifts, given only to you during your marriage, in most jurisdictions these items are considered separate property and not subject to division. However, in some jurisdictions, inter spousal gifts (ie. gifts that you and your spouse have given to each other) may be considered marital property and are subject to division.
If you are concerned that marital items with great sentimental value may disappear from the marital home before you resolve your personal property dispute, take steps to preserve those items. No money in the world can replace the sentimental value. Don’t get rid of them, just keep them in a safe place with a family member or your attorney (if he or she is willing) until there is a resolution of how those items are going to be divided. Remember, your attorney does not have any magical powers to get something back if it disappears.
The bottom line is that you and your soon to be ex-spouse should take a practical approach in dividing your stuff….sweating the small stuff may cost you more in the end.
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