Risk Assessment for Violence, Playing the Odds
PDF By Joyce Alexander, RNP (Retired)
I recently bought a book, Violence Risk and Threat Assessment: A Practical Guide for Mental Health and Criminal Justice Professionals, by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. I actually bought it to give some “credence” to the statistics I put into my letter to the parole board protesting the release on parole of the Trojan Horse-Psychopath that attacked our family,
Of course this book is directed, as the title says, to professionals, and to assess risk of violence. But since we are dealing with psychopaths, it is, I think, a good idea for us to be able also to look at the assessment for possible violence in our own psychopaths when we thwart their desires, or kick them to the curb. We need to answer the questions, “Is my psychopath likely to respond with violence? If so, how?”
Most violent individuals are not violent all the time. In the introduction, the author illustrates that “just because an abnormality (in behavior) … only shows on occasion, does not mean it has gone away.” (My emphasis.)
A “false negative” is when you decide that your individual will not be violent, and you are wrong. You may pay for this decision with your life. A “false positive” is when you think your individual will be prone to violence, and they are not. Being prepared for violence, even if your individual psychopath does not turn out to be physically violent is, of course, the safest way to play it. If you are going to err, erring on the side of caution is the best course. False positives are less damaging to us than false negatives.
There are also different kinds of “violence.” Not all violence that does damage to us is physical. Psychopaths can become financially violent and deprive us of our income, our estate, and a hundred other violations that we can all imagine.
Contributors to violence
Dr. Meloy uses what he calls a bio-psycho-social model for Violence Risk Assessment to assess an individual’s risk for violence. This consists of the biological aspects, the psychological aspects and the social aspects of the individual in question.
The first, the psychological domain, contains such things as gender, age, past history of violence, frequency of violence, how recent have they been violent, and severity of past violence, paranoia, intelligence, anger, fear problems, and the frequency and intensity of them, as well as control of impulses. Of course, the psychopathy and other attachment problems will weigh in heavily on this.
The second, the social or environmental domain, looks at the family of origin violence, economic instability and poverty, WEAPONS HISTORY, weapon skill, interest and approach behavior, as well as alcohol and or psycho-stimulant use.
The third domain is the biological one. Is there a history of head trauma, or major mental disorder (like untreated bi-polar disorder).
Dr. Meloy also emphasizes that the MOST IMPORTANT factor in his judgment is the history of past violence. The best predictor of future violence is a history of past violence.
Questions to ask yourself in doing your own “risk assessment for violence” in your psychopath are: How “provoked” is your psychopath by losing you? Do they have the paranoid personality disorder, in which they feel “that everyone is out to get them,” with a long memory for imagined slights or wounds from those people “out to get them”? Are they chronically angry, fearful and jealous? Some forms of illegal drugs will also contribute to paranoia, and as the use of drugs and the interest and reliance on weapons goes up, so does the risk of violence. Dr. Maloy mentions the killing of Nichole Brown Simpson, where she was not only killed, but after death her body almost beheaded. He says that drugs, along with the rage, could have easily lowered the threshold for the abandonment rage which probably motivated the killer.
Fear and stalking
Dr. Meloy also goes into the lack of difference between biochemical reactions to both fear and anger. Both cause the same reaction within the body. How intense is the anger response in the person you are evaluating? How does the person handle anger?
Dr. Meloy differentiates between two different kinds of violence by illustrating his text with a story about a cat.
We have all seen a cat, cornered by a dog, with its hackles raised, its tail up, hissing and spitting. That cat is emotionally reacting in a violent way to the fear inside it that it is going to be attacked by the dog. (This is called “affective” or emotional violence in reaction to a perceived threat.) Once the perceived threat is gone, the cat will quickly return to a state of calm. The purpose of this kind of violence is “threat reduction.”
The second type of violence illustrated with another story of a cat is the predatory violence, which is planned and purposeful and goal directed.
The planned and purposeful (or predatory) violence has a minimal or absent autonomic arousal, (which is the hair standing on end, the hissing and spitting etc.). As you observe the cat in predatory violence—such as stalking a mouse or bird—the cat is calm, cool and collected. It is focused on a goal as it stalks the prey. It tries to keep its purpose (violence) hidden and it tries to keep the prey from realizing that it is prey.
The brain chemicals released in each of these states of violence are completely different. The emotionally generated fear induced violence is a defense mechanism. It can still be a threat to anyone who is the perceived enemy, but it quickly subsides once the threat is gone.
With predatory violence, the predator is goal directed to do violence to the prey. They may plot and plan and take quite some time to stalk and corner the prey. The predator may strike without warning. Unlike emotionally (fear) induced violence, predatory violence is not time limited and the stalking may go on for days, weeks, months or years.
Knowing which type of violence your psychopathic adversary is involved with at any given moment can help you assess what your course of action should be. If the Psychopath is showing the “cornered cat” response, for example for being confronted in a lie, your best response is to just “back off” and let them calm down when the perceived threat is removed. If the psychopath is stalking you; emotionally, financially, or physically, they will not be so obvious to spot as the enraged cat. Once you have determined that the person you are dealing with is a psychopath, or likely one, you must assume that the person will engage in predatory violence on some level. The fact that this stalking and predatory violence may be very subtle does not make it any less dangerous.
In the short term, cornering one in a threatening manner (confrontation of any kind) can produce an emotionally violent response or even physical attack, but in the long term, the predatory violence can do more damage to us, body and soul. We need, I think, to assess the state our psychopath is operating in, and learn when to back off with confrontations, and when to prepare ourselves for “out of the blue” attacks when they are in a predatory state.
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Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
“but this time I wont imagine its all over like last time.”
Good. Enjoy it while it lasts!
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Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
If you can bore your X to tears, you might get lucky. He might latch on to a new target. (I know, this sounds evil. It probably is.) Any way, if he’s busy crazy-making with someone else, it will take the heat off.
Strive for boring. It sometimes works.
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OxDrover says:
Elizabeth,
A friend of mine (my age) had a brother and when they would fight her father would make them hold a board between them and press their noses into it so that their eyes were about 3 inches apart for various periods of time. LOL
I think your husband’s idea was great!!! especially if they were teenagers! My how they would hate that! LOL I remember when miine were about 6 & 8, I realized that the younger one who masquaraded as “peter perfect” was inciting the problems and his older (ADHD) brother would hit him and get in trouble. So I decided that I wasn’t going to referee any more and told them that if they got into afight they would both be punished. For six months I thought I would go crazy and one day I heard one of them say, “If you do that again, I am going to hit you and then we will BOTH get into trouble.” ROTFLMAO Oh, I enjoyed those days though! I miss those little kids that kept me busy and pulling my hair out too!
But that is why God gives children to young women, because you have the energy to cope with it! I’m also glad that you have a willing and good partner as well. I did some home schooling back in the days when it was illegal to do so, with my ADHD son (the non-P) and I know how busy that can keep you too. Parenting and caregiving of any kind deserve a break once in a while, I am glad you are taking one.
I’m fortunate that I am retired and dont have to work off the farm, and can limit totally the interactions I want to what I want. Those days that I like my jackasses better than most people I limit my socialization to the jackasses. LOL
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Elizabeth Conley says:
Ox Drover,
“So I decided that I wasn’t going to referee any more…”
Smart lady.
My kids were provoking each other in the doctor’s examining room the other day. He hadn’t arrived yet, and experience had taught me we’d be waiting at least 10 minutes. My bladder was full and I was getting cranky. I left to go to the lady’s room. As I walked out I told them “I’m leaving now. Go ahead, work it out. I’ll keep the survivor.” Sure enough, they were both alive, well and in harmony when I returned. My two will argue for the fun of it, and to get me involved in their monkey-shines. Lately I’ve recused myself.
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OxDrover says:
Good for you! Unless there was something VERY dangerous or serious I tried to let them settle their own squabbles. I really love kids the ages of yours, they are my favorite ages! Lots of fun, interesting and learning so much! Those years were some of the best I had with my kiddos. Son C and I have been reviewing some of the memories of those years and the things we did together as a family! Funny the odd things that they remember from those years! Hard to believe my baby is 39!!! Where did the years go?!
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Rune says:
Ox-D: Cutting back on the non-essentials — good advice. So much of what people believe is essential is just busywork and distraction. And the taking care of others, without discrimination — that’s a sure path into the clutches of the next S/P, not to mention personal exhaustion along the way.
I believe that as a result of sociopathic behavior on a national level, we’re seeing a tsunami wave of people who are reeling — facing joblessness, homelessness. And everything you mention — mental/emotional stability, immune system, mental clarity for problem-solving in extreme circumstances — all those are and will be present issues for people who don’t even know the concept of “sociopath.”
And the situations are shaping up to be so dire that there aren’t enough soup kitchens and dormitories to handle these people. Not that those are really good solutions, either.
Kathleen Hawk posted a comment that pointed in this direction. We tend to focus on our own personal relationship betrayals, but I think it’s worth noting that those up-close-and-personal S/Ps are just smaller examples of those who have plundered society.
Thanks again for the thoughtful response.
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Healing Heart says:
It does seem that there are more and more sociopaths out there doing damage on all scales, small and large. I wonder if the sociopaths have multiplied (because they procreate so thoughtlessley), or, with ever increasing technology and communication, there are just more venues for them to wreak havoc with their selfishness and lack of conscience.
I think it will be a big turning point for the world when people begin to recognize that there is a sick breed of people amongst us, and that we MUST learn to identify and manage them. At this stage of civilization, the vast majority of them go unnoticed, and even rewarded, until something huge happens.
I hope the recession, which is driven in small or large part, by greed…will open people’s eyes. And that survivors will more and more identify themselves as such as will educate themselves and others.
I think, sadly about my ex S and the damage he has reaped, and the damage he stands to reap. There are a lot of women out there right now, who are doing okay – not great, but okay…and he’s going to come into their lives and devastate them. I wish I knew he they were so I could call them and try to help them – though it probably would not keep them away, it might help get them out sooner.
He’s out there – and he’s evil, and he’s incredibly charming and has always been a magnet for women (especially women like us). I shudder when I think of all the damage he is doing RIGHT NOW…and all the damage he is going to do, and all the people he is going to hurt, in the coming months, years, decades. SHUDDER
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muldoon says:
Hello….checking in and educating myslf whilst here…It seems that the evil one is now telling people how glad he is to be free from me, that I am scorned and that I was controlling, abusive, tyranical…all the things he himself is…What I want…no have, to know is does he believe this in all sincerity/ Or does he know full well and is consciously lying…In any event, he now has to keep that charade up so its probabl;y going to be peacefull for a time.
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Tood says:
Muldoon,
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what he thinks or believes about his own lies. But I’ve been exactly where you are, and I know how important it is during that period to try to understand their crazy behavior and their crazier excuses.
Mine also went through a brief period of calling me a “bitter, scorned woman.” And of course I was insane and he was as pure and innocent as the driven snow.
I think they know they are lying when they first begin the lie. But with enough repetitions, I think they actually come to believe their own false universes. Because, after all, in their own minds, they are GOD and they CREATE REALITY. Words have no meaning beyond what THEY give them. So after a time, they actually believe that they can shape reality just by speaking the right lie.
But as you will come to know as time passes, what is in his sick, disordered head is of no consequence to you. Because you are out of his false, crazy reality and living in a new, real, true universe of your own. Keep up the good work.
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muldoon says:
Todd, i am not trying to understand the no mark for what or why you think, I gave up trying to understand because I just cant think how he does, I cant switch off my empathy/conscience so will never get it..
The reason being I live in a small coastal town where everybody knows everybody..he is now painting me rotten, saying i was a nymphomaniac, etc…The children have to grow up around here, talk travels fast..the kids will have the piss taken out of them and there are people here who will stop their kids associating with them because they will not want to be around a drug taking hooker…I am wondering if it is worth pointing out to him that the consequences of his bullshit on the kids could do untold damage, I was hoping he may step back because its me he wants to hurt not the kids.
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Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear Muldoon,
“In any event, he now has to keep that charade up so its probabl;y going to be peacefull for a time.”
Oh yeah! There is nothing more fortuitous than being shunned by an N/P/S. Later, when the N/P/S acts out again for attention, he looks really dumb. With any luck you can get him to shun you indefinately.
It actually helps you if he believes his own lies. See if you can get visitation/custody exchanges set up in such a way that he interfaces with someone other than you to pick up and drop off the kids. With your history, this should be received by the court as a reasonable request. The X will look silly if he objects, so he’ll most likely agree. Deprived of the ability to crazy-make during custody exchanges, he may get bored and drift away.
I’ve got a strong feeling that your best chance for a safe future is to bore your X to tears.
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muldoon says:
Even if I tell people he is a sociopath, that will also effect my kids who will grow up with that stigma to boot.
My solicitor is going to ask the judge to assess his risk and for what I am saying..like oyu say here though they are master bullshitters..any articles on here I can copy out that will help me make the judge understand?
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muldoon says:
Elizabeth….the thing I have been reluctant to tell anyone other than the solicitor and a friend is it has come to light from the kids he has been viewing porn in the presence of our five yr old, she says dady always smacks his front botom when he is on the p.c…the elder child has also caught him.
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Tood says:
Again, speaking from my own experience…you cannot play his game and win. If he’s an S/P, he’s a very convincing liar. It’s what they do, who they are. You can’t let yourself be concerned with what he is telling other people. There will be a certain number of people who believe his lies, and there will be nothing you can do about it.
Just ignore it all as best you can and get on with your new life. If you have a job, concentrate on doing it well. Put your attention on your children and their healing. Try to help them be strong. In time, most people (and remember, MOST people are not disordered)…MOST people will eventually see through the S/P’s lies.
In the meantime, work on yourself, your healing, your children’s healing.
All I can tell you is this: five years ago, my ex had a large group of friends/acquaintances who believed his every word (I call them his groupies). I was personna non grata with everyone in our circle. Today, he is down to TWO people who still believe him–and people come up to me on the street and apologize for ever believing him in the first place.
It wll pass. His smear campaign will pass.
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muldoon says:
Thats reassuring. Tood
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OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
The advice you have been given above is all GREAT advice. He will do the SMEAR CAMPAIGN and a number of people will believe him, BUT what those people believe is not worth your time, thought or effort….THEY DO NOT MATTER. Yes, as long as he is getting ATTENTION and “Pity” from these folks he will not be so focused on you. They NEED ATTENTION and so they can get it elsewhere. He is more dangerous to you when he is not getting attention from others.
Don’t worry about counteracting his lies (and yes, I think he wille ven start to believe his own lies after a while) just APPEAR CALM in front of these people if you encoutner them and say, something along the lines of “I know John is very angry at me right now and saying things that are not true, but I’d rather not discuss our personal problems with everyone in the world.” That way you are TAKING THE HIGH ROAD and NOT giving those folks ammunition to go back tohim and say “You know what Muldoon said?” and piss him off more, and draw his attention to you again.
I agree, he does NOT want to see the kids except to use them as abuse to you, and if HE CANNOT SEE YOU WHEN THE KIDS ARE DROPPED OFF OR PICKED UP then he will NOT get what HE wants, which is contact with you, so chances are that he will drift away after a while if his tactics are not working and getting a “rise” out of you.
He may tell them some AWFUL stuff, and you again, I think, need to be CALM with the kids and just repeat “Daddy is very angry at me right now, and because he is angry he is saying things that are not true. I know that this confuses you, but he wille ventually get over it. I am not going to behave badly because I am angry at him.” DO NOT criticize him to them, but kep RECORDS of the things they tell you about his mastrabating in front of the PC in their presence. TAPE RECORD THOSE THINGS if possible but don’t let the kids know you are doing it. Especially the 5 yr old. Sheesh,, he is a real piece of work for sure!!!
Hang on Muldoon, you are DOING GREAT and you still have a long way to go, but you are getting there, I can hear it in your posts!!! I am so proud of you and proud FOR you as well. Getting away from this horrible man is going to open the way for you and your kids to have a GOOD LIFE. ((((hugs)))) and my prayers are with you daily for your safety and healing!
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Rune says:
Muldoon: Liane Leedom, M.D., has a special interest in the risks to children of sociopathic parents. Educating judges and lawyers about these risks is a real challenge. Given what the father is doing, watching porn etc. in front of the children, this may be called “child abuse,” depending on the laws where you are.
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Rune says:
Muldoon: Liane’s blog, “A sociopath will always leave you out in the cold,” is about an apparently sociopathic parent. You may find some useful references in those comments as well.
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OxDrover says:
Before I wrote the above article, I had always at least with my animals been one to take a “risk of violence” assessment of each animal in my herd because simply put, ANY large animal can hurt or kill you accidently and I did NOT INTEND to have any that WANTED to hurt you just out of malice. Since this also tends to be genetic in animals, I didn’t even want the offspring in my herd of animals that were tending toward violence or malice. So I insituted what we jokingly refer to the “Bigger AND meaner” rule. If an animal was bigger AND meaner than I was, it WENT! If it was smaller than I was and was meaner, I could handle it, or if it was bigger and not as “mean” I could handle it and not have INCREASED risk of injury from unpredictability or malice. I have not been seriously injured by an animal on this place since I put that into effect. One chance and one chance only, any aggression (unless it was out of panic or protecting a baby) was a death sentence, the second aggression under any circumstances was a death sentence.
A couple of days ago when I was getting my few head of pet cows up and their calves (who are not pets and haven’t been trained to lead or handled since I haven’t had time to break the to lead etc) I was going to butcher a young bull about a year old and as we were driving the entire 9 yead into the corral to separate him out, one of my pets (who because she was bottle raised when her mother broke her leg) is “dysfunctional” and has NO fear or even respect for a human, decided she didn’t want to go into the corral and turned and headed DIRECTLY for me, intending to run right over me. A cow that had not been raised on a bottle by a human would have RESPECT and would have made every effort to NOT run directly over me, but as I stood there preparing to be hit by her, making direct eye contact, and I realized she was NOT going to turn, I was going to get hit head on, and probably hurt severely, in the last instant of time, my son’s hat came flying and struck her in the eye and turned her away from me. I stood there, having the “shot at and missed” feeling of being grateful not to be on a medical helicopter for the state medical school, and immediately changed my mind about which animal I was going to butcher. The cow went to the top of the list immediately.
Not that she was “meaner” than I am, but she decidedly is dangerous to life and limb because she is NOT affaid of me at all and has no “flight zone” from humans.
Assessing risks of violence is an IMPORTANT thing for us, because if we are WRONG because we think they are not a risk, and they ARE a risk, we are “on the helicopter” or on our way to the funeral home as the “guest of honor.” We can’t afford to be wrong—even one time. Because one time may be the time we are mangled or killed.
I’ve known since she was less than a year old that this cow was a “dysfunctional” cow because she was raised on a bottle, away from other cattle and did not BOND to the herd and the other cattle, or they to her. She doesn’t know she is a cow. She doesn’t even like the other cattle, so has no inclination to “stay with the herd” as the others do, and to move in a group, making every effort to stay with them. She is liable to strike out on her own away from the rest of the herd. She has no “fear” or “respect” of me as the others do, though they are “gentle” if I say “boo” and wave my hands they will move AWAY from me—not her, she is not intimidated at all by me because she isn’t “normal” and doesn’t have normal herding instincts, they have been “trained” out of her.
I’ve known she wasn’t “normal” since she was first put back into the herd, seen that she wasn’t bonded to the herd, had no desire to stay with them, and every time we would drive the herd up she would take off the other way away from them. But, because I “liked” this cow and had raised her on a bottle in the summertime when she was a baby, I hated to kill her or get rid of her, I just tolerated her being a pain in the butt when we drove cattle—I IGNORED THE RED FLAGS of her dysfunction and I shouldn’t have. I knew better, but I rationalized it. Yesterday I was lucky and fortunate that my son had the presence of mind under a tight situation to save my old bones from a sure fire big time injury or worse.
I can’t ignore the red flags any more. Maybe she would never try that again, but chances are, she will and sooner or later someone will get hurt. I’m not willing to risk myself or my sons or anyone else with an animal that is very likely going to repeat a dangerous behavior…maybe next time my son might not be wearing a hat, or be too far away to throw it, or might be looking the other way. NOT WORTH THE RISK. Cattle are very much like psychopaths in that whatever they have done in the past they will REPEAT in the future. Maybe not EVERY time, but usually when you least need it to happen (Murphy was an optimist!) It is BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. So if we are going to err, it should be on the side of thinking that they are more dangerous than they actually are, rathr than thinking “Oh, well, he was dangerous in the past, but he’s calmed down now.” Then find out we were wrong!
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OxDrover says:
Muldoon,
If you can get a copy of Dr. Meloy’s book that would be a great one to give to the attorney and/or the judge.
THE BEST ASSESSMENT OF FUTURE BEHAVIOR IS PAST BEHAVIOR.
I wouldn’t even use the word “sociopath” or “psychopath” just say HE IS VIOLENT. Any dumbo can understand that! You have proof that he is violent (you’ve called the police on multiple tims) If they say “You weren’t very afraid of him because you keep going back?” Then you must stand up and say, “Yes I AM afraid of him. In the PAST I thought because he apologized that he would STOP being violent, but I can see now that HE WILL NEVER STOP BEING VIOLENT.”
ADMIT to the attorneys or the police that “I was a fool, I thought he would quit it, he said he would quit it and I loved him and I was a fool, but I AM NOT A FOOL ANY MORE.”
We were all fools one or more times, we all thought the Ps were really sorry, we hoped they were sorry, etc. but WE ARE NOT FOOLS ANY MORE. WE KNOW THE TRUTH NOW.
Because you did take him back time after time, they are going to try to use this against you in court to show that you are not really afraid of him, but by admitting that you kept taking him back because you had HOPE he would get better, but you SEE NOW that you were wrong, shows that YOU accept your part in it by allowing it, by going back to him, but that you HAVE YOUR SMARTS ON NOW. NOW is what really matters anyway.
If they get you on the stand or try to use anything you have done or said (your old e mails or anything) admit freely that you did those things, but that NOW YOU SEE WHY YOU DID THEM, YOU WERE UNDER STRESS. But now you are seeing the light, NOW you know that he is violent and will NOT change. NOW YOU ARE CALM AND REASONABLE.
I did and said some unreasonable things when I was trying to convince my mother the Ps were out to kill us, she did not believe me. She thought I was the CRAZY one, and I was crazy, but they WERE the psychopaths and they were out to kill us….so my own behavior was turned back against me. It happens, but that’s okay. I didn’t have love fraud at the time, and YOU DO–you have a whole army of people here to be with you through this!! A WHOLE ARMY of survivors!!! How wonderful is that!!!! (((hugs)))))
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Indigoblue says:
OxD
I think most of the time the person under the influance of the N/S/P cannot make that distinction! I know I did not ! Only after discovery , was I able to see how bad things where and how much worse they could get if things stayed the same! The Repeat Cycle!
One of the VALUES in this information about them is the recuring patern! It helps in not making excuses for them ! It helps you and me FACE FACT! LOVE JJ
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OxDrover says:
Yes, Indi, when you are “in the fog” you can’t see the danger or you rationalize it away. I did that in the past, I have done it with the cow, but next week, (my boys are gone for the weekend) it is “off with her head” and no more risk from this “emotionally dysfunctional” COW! LOL
YUMMMMM! Tenderloin on the grill!!! Ya’lll come to my house!
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henry says:
Oxy – You made dog food out of a dead horse – your going to OFF the cow when the boy’s are gone – ever see the movie fried green tomatos? It’s in the Sauce!!!! Maybe we should all go to Oxy’s and invite our X’s and have a Bar-B-Que
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muldoon says:
An Acquaintance saw the evil one earlier,she hardly knows him other than via me and only to say hello to, I know her from the school gates, she yold me the evil one spoke to her a couple of days before, he had three teenage girls with him about 18 – 20 yrs old, rough as sin, typical chavs…trailer trash if you arent familiar with chav..he told her I was evil, same old same old ..but he told her the girls were hoping to bump in to me and he was going to watch them beat the hell out of me. I asked where she had seen them and the place and time was a place I would normally have been but I was at the solicitors that days..fate?
It was a shock to her because previously she only has ever said hello to him and him to her.
She wont go to police, she told me and asked it didnt egt out that she told me.
The worst part of this I felt a pang of something twist in me when she said he was with the girls…and not from fear of the assault, like a jealousy…I also feel tonight I would like to see the nice man I thought he was one more time..I know, just being honest..i wont act on my longing, but taht doesnt stop the feeling. I have like a heartache for him now.
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henry says:
muldoon – your above post should make you feel elated that he is out of your life!!!! He want’s too watch 3 bitch’s beat you up and you have pang’s of jealousy? Re think this muldoon. All the same I am sorry for your pain. and btw I live in a trailor..
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OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
Keep a note about date and time your friend saw the EX and what he told her, even though she might not want to come to court, she can be MADE TO.
GET YOU A TAPE RECORDER, a small digital one and keep it in your pocket ALL THE TIME. that way if he comes around, you get a call, or bump into anyone, and they tell you anything. YOU CAN RECORD WHAT THEY SAY. You really NEED TO GET DOCUMENTATION on all this crap. While I understand people not wanting to “get involved” in some cases they MUST GET INVOLVED and can be compelled to do so. This is your life and your bones we are talking about woman! Vary your schedule too, don’t be WHERE he thinks you will be at any given time, and keep someone with you, a police whistle and a CAN OF OVEN SPRAY as well. Don’t let them catch you off guard! What a jerk. I am so glad you are getting this guy out of your life!!!! ((((hugs))))
I am so sorry that you are going through all this drama and terror! It is so UNnecessary. Yet, in a way, him acting like this MAKES YOU KNOW WHAT A DANGEROUS GUY HE IS, and that you HAVE TO get away. No looking back. I know that you feel you would like to see the FANTASY man once again, but darling, he is DEAD.
Henry, there is a difference between a “trailer” and a “mobile home”—one is a home and the other one is a CRASH PAD! Big difference. Nice people live in mobile homes, and PSYCHOPOATHS and other TRASH live in “Trailers” LOL
Even “poor white trash” can have lots of money!! LOL My son says I am not a RED NECK, but that we are “HILL BILLIES” cause Red Necks are “trash” and “hill billies” are not. I don’t get his drift, but that’s what he says! LOL In any case, a working stiff has a RED NECK from working out in the sun, and trash usually are pale from being out all night and sleeping all day! LOL I have a “red necK” from working so I think that qualifies me as a Red Neck—we argue about it all the time! LOL I AM “bi-linguial” though, I can speak and write English and I can speak “red neck” as well. Complete with the “ya’ll come back now” and “bless her heart!” LOL ROTFLMAO And, I swing a MEAN SKILLET!
Nah, I’m not going to kill the cow til the boys get back, with both of them here I can SUPERVISE and don’t have to skin the darned thing or do the gutting. I am “management” not labor now that I have TWO men taking orders! LOL Next week the renters are sending their hired hand to help fix fences. Gosh if I was only 30 years younger I’d be all over him. CUTE guy, but he’s 30 and an honest to gosh cowboy (his grandfather is a close friend of mine) While he was here today he trimmed the donkeys feet. He doesn’t “do” donkeys or mules just horses (smart man) but he did it for me for a favor and Fat and Hairy were sooooo good, he said they were better than 99% of the horses he has done! I told him they would be! THEY KNOW THE RULE!!!! This was only the second time they had been trimmed and they acted like old hands at it.
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muldoon says:
Henry…I am not on about people in general that live in Trailers..I am on about the chavs we have here and the only way I can explain chav to you is to use a phrase that in America means this..
I know he is dead if ever he existed at all….perhaps I am meant to feel down somewhat as the end of an era looms and I face the prospect of being a single mother.
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henry says:
Muldoon it’s Ok I know what you meant and I should not have said anything as I also use the term trailor trash as i have plenty of it around me. I don’t know too much about your story but give yourself some time and follow Oxy’s advice. Your aquiantance friend sounds to me like you need to go NC with her also. Yearning for that man that never was, oh how I can relate too that and I am so glad I am past that. I bet you will be a wonderful single parent – there is much good awaiting you once you get past this terrible pain – dig in and live the life you want to live. And sorry about my tacky comment.
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OxDrover says:
Henry, BOINK!!! for the tacky comment, Hugs for the apology (((Henry)))) Love Oxy
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henry says:
oxy thanx for the boink and the hug, it was just my insecurity showing.
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OxDrover says:
Henry, if M won the lotto and bought a mansion, it would still be a “crash pad” and he would still be “trailer trash”—your house would be a HOME if you lived in a card board box on a street corner. When I lived in the RV trailer last year it was my HOME even though it was only 33 ft long and 11 ft wide at the slide out. I’ve thought about that and I think that is why it took me another six months to move back into the house after I got back to the farm.
Logically, it doesn’t make sense to live in a 33 ft trailer parked next to a 4 bedroom house when you have a choice, but I felt safe iin my trailer HOME. Now I feel safe in the house (my HOME) again but I won’t sell the trailer as long as my son lives….it is parked there in case I need it, ready to GO if I need to.
I did began to wonder though if I would EVER feel safe in the house again. I read somewhere that it is called “sanctuary trauma” and that our sanctuary is traumatized and we feel we have no safety in our sanctuary. I’m not sure my son will ever be able to move back into his house again. He will be starting therapy for the PTSD with the same therapist I used and I hope it can make him feel safe again. His hypervigilence is decreasing since he has been home, and he’s working very hard on it and his healing.
He doesn’t exhibit that “long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs” anxiety and hyperness that he did. LOL
Goo’nite you guys! Love and have a good nite! Oxy
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henry says:
‘sanctuary trauma’ yes, just one more trauma I have overcame.
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muldoon says:
Have passed him today….as if he never seen me before….
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OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
Another one of his “ploys” to suck you in and make you want to interact with him….pretend he doesn’t know you. Don’t fall for it. Just Pretend you dont’ know him either and keep on moving. LOL They are so predictable, and also changable too, they will try one thing one minute and then something else the next, so stay on your guard, sweetie! Don’t let him catch you off guard or alone and hurt you.
Keep on reading here and learning about psychopaths, though each varies a bit from the others and osme are more dangerous physicalloy than others, they all play by the same “Playbook” and few if any are original.
I am keeping oyu in my prayers and thoughts, Muldoon, you are doing so well, and I am so glad for you that you and your kiddies are getting away from this man. I know it will be a hard difficult road to be a single parent to children who have been exposed to the likes of him from birth, but you can do it!!! I know you can!!! (((hugs))))
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alohatraveler says:
Muldoon,
I love the advice Elizabeth gave you about boring him to death. PERFECT.
It can be so painful when they spin bizarre stories about us. Anyone that believes their stories is being played like a puppet. Bad Man once sent me an email that said, “MY FRIENDS want to know how many restraining orders your exboyfriends have on YOU!” If they said that, I can only imagine what he said to them to get them to say that. The truth is, he didn’t have any real friends.. just co-workers that were trapped on the boat with him for a few hours.
There were a few people that thought he was okay but he couldn’t hide that he was a nut job for too long. The last woman he claimed was his friend eventually told him, “You need help. Don’t contact me again.”
Anyway.. there are some articles here but I can’t remember which ones. Ask Donna. She might know better which ones would help a judge to understand. I would refrain from telling long stories in court. I would just say, “Here judge.. this is what I think I am dealing with.” then hand over an article with a few highlighted parts. Remain completely calm in court and don’t get hysterical. I know it’s easy for me to say because I didn’t have to go to court against the bad man… but remember your ex is going to try to paint you as unstable so you want to be the pilar of stability. Remember when OZ was controlling everything and Dorthy was afraid of OZ and then wasn’t it TOTO that pulled the curtain back and OZ got all flustered and looked like an idiot. That’s what you want to happen. Don’t be afraid… he’s gig will eventually come down around him.
Good luck Muldoon.
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Matt says:
alohatraveler:
You’re right about not telling long stories in court. Be it criminal or civil matters “anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law” is the code to operate by. Or put another way, you can and will be hanged by your own words.
I know Muldoon is based in GB. While I can’t speak to how courts there operate, I have a pretty good suspicion that the judge involved in her case probably won’t even accept an article saying “this is what I’ve been dealing with.” The most likely scenario is that the court is going to (a) demand specifics from her and (b) order psychiatric examinations of both him and her, if custody is an issue, and him, if criminal charges are brought against him. The problem, as anybody who has dealt with an S knows, is they are so damned good at conning the legal and psychiatric systems.
You are absolutely correct in your advice that she has to remain completely calm and not get hysterical and their objective is to paint her as unstable. My advice in this instance is for Muldoon to view this as giving a performance–strip all the emotion out of it, and to quote Sargent Joe Friday on the old “Dragnet” TV show, give “Just the facts, ma’am, just the facts.”
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Wini says:
Matt: I practice for a year or so … having my fiance or friend/family verbally insult me or talk down to me, or ask me a question and then cut me off when I tried to give my answer.
I was conditioning myself to take anything as it came at me so I wouldn’t come unglued or cry (out of shock) in the kangaroo courts at work or when the attorneys deposed me. I don’t know what would have happened during the deposition, but I would have been fired if I cried at work … my bosses wanted to claim that I was unstable and always cried at work. Anyway, practicing being insulted or talked down to toughened (or conditioned) me up so I wouldn’t come unglued because I knew they were doing everything to make me come unglued or loose my cool. I was able to keep my composure … especially when someone cuts your answer off and talks over you … like you are not even in the conversation. Even when a personnel officer said to me in a kangaroo meeting “Is this why you started all this Wini, because your mother is DEAD!”. The only thing that came in my mind when that was said to me was my parents voices saying “Wini, they weren’t lucky enough to have parents like us”.
Nice folks I worked with.
This is also what your tax dollars go to. Millions of tax dollars were wasted trying to get 7 of us who knew our bosses and their cronies were anti-social. If they could waste millions on us, guess how many more millions are wasted in the other 49 states?
Peace.
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Matt says:
Wini:
Your “boot camp” is actually not a bad form of conditioning. Any litigaor will tell you that as awful as depositions are, the whole point is to get a witness conditioned. And when you are on the receiving end, well…
As a lawyer who has been on both sides of the rail — both as an attorney and as someone who has been sued (not malpractice, but where I was personally sued when I foolishly guaranteed loans for a conman brother) I agree that there’s a lot that I don’t like about our so-called system of justice. On the other hand, having been asked to consult for countries which are developing justice systems after having thrown off dictatorships/totalitarian systems of government, there is a lot to be said for our system. The words “innocent until proven guilty”; and “everyone is entitled to their day in court” actually do mean something in our country. Or, as I often say, our founding fathers didn’t put those words in our Constitution because they sounded nice.
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Wini says:
Matt: My bosses played so many games with the seven of us that filed suits against them. 5 of the 7 were illegally fired or not allowed to come back into work. One co-worker was illegally fired for collapsing on the floor in tears over all the abuse she took for years from these animals … another was illegally fired for slapping his hand on the conference table while he was explaining he did not do what they accused him of … a defense reaction to their obscene set ups against this person. Well, needless to say, his slamming his hand down on the conference table was considered threatening and he was fired within minutes of doing so. My first kangaroo hearing … the monitor (another slime ball) kept looking at his watch and saying to me “look how long we are giving you Wini”. Of course, I had no clue what so ever what he was referring to. This went on all morning until late in the afternoon. They finally broke the hearing up for another day. During that day, I must have heard this monitor say while looking at his watch “look how long we are giving you Wini, no one has ever been given this much time”.
Later that evening while I was home it dawned on me what he meant by telling me and looking at his watch “look how long we are giving you Wini” was that most people would insult them or raise their voice towards them by telling them off for the disgusting way they were being treated … so they usually get people to react … then of course, get them fired on insubordination for reacting.
These bosses and their cronies, the hearing officers, personnel officers and affirmative action officers were a well oiled, vicious machine … who got their way every time with people they wanted out of the way. You would think they paid our salaries? Sick. Sick. Sick.
Peace.
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Healing Heart says:
It’s very frustrating that these guys can be in positions in power. When we all become more aware and evolved as a community, we will recognize who these people are, and will not promote/appoint/elect them. I believe that day is not so far off. We are part of an awakening – personally and globally
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Ox Drover says:
This is an old article I wrote, and while I think J. Reid Meloy is in many ways a narcissistic creep himself, I do think he is right on in this particular topic.
The lady who wrote in a few days ago about fearing for the life of her Granddaughter because the psychopath was stalking, and others who have recently talked about how they were afraid their psychopath would take their kids and run, maybe to another country, I think this particular article speaks to those fears. Of course there is MUCH MORE TO LEARN about how the psychopaths stalk us and why, and how each one should be evaluated for their level of risk in stalking.
My psychopathic son is a calm, cool and collected stalker with every intention of making me his prey—he will never give up. The Trojan Horse Psychopath is dangerous when cornered, but probably not dangerous to me as far as stalking me NOW. He was very dangerous at one time, but he doesn’t have the same dedication that my P-son has. He doesn’t have the same desire for revenge, hang the consequences!
Though Reid Meloy’s books are ALL difficult to read and understand, there are other authors who are NOT difficult, Gavin DeBecker is one who is easy to understand, so treat yourself to some books–I am no longer using Amazon.com due to the fact that they gave such a stupid DEFENSIVE response to the e book that they were selling on HOW TO GROOM CHILDREN FOR MOLESTATION written by a presumed child molester. “Freedom of the press” my arse! Most of the time you can find what you need cheaply on Barnes and Nobel used (the only kind of book I buy now—I’m a tight wad) Sorry for the slam on Amazon Donna, but I’m still mad as hell about the “how to” book on child molestation and their stupid response. At least they did take it down and quit selling it. They should have fired who ever approved its sale in the first place!
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aussiegirl says:
Wow. My xspath is BOTH kinds of violent. I knew it and I have said many times that he will never go away, whether I ignore him or not. All of which makes me even more determined to at least get him behind bars where his capacity to stalk would be somewhat hindered. I’m not being naive here and I do know that “things” can be organised from “inside” but right now, he is walking around free and proud.
Not for long buster!!!
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Ox Drover says:
I thought this way of thinking about “aggression” like the cat story—is a very easy one to understand. I no longer fear the Trojan Horse Psychopath because he is a coward and I don’t have him cornered so he has no reason to fight me, he would rather avoid me…but my P son would take a fight as a CHALLENGE and he would ENJOY it. He enjoys the stalk but he also enjoys the fight. It isn’t so much about winning or losing, he just enjoys fighting! The battle. Of course he likes winning better, but he would come in here if he thought we had machine guns waiting, but the Trojan Horse Psychopath won’t come in as long as I he knows we would fight back and are armed and ready, he doesn’t enjoy the fight.
I’m really not sure WHY there is a difference in the two types of violence in psychopaths, why one has some fear and the other one doesn’t appear to…neither of them learn much by the consequences of their behavior, but I think the TH-P does learn more, or at least changes his behavior more based on success or failure risks. My P son doesn’t have any respect for risk at all.
I hope you can get yours behind bars, but the thing is that they don’t keep them behind bars forever….mostly they do get out, even for murder.
Learning how to “hide in plain sight” is necessary for me if mine gets out OR if he gets enough $$$$ to hire someone—as it is now, his buddies don’t have enough money for the gasoline to get here, but if he had the money to finance them, might be a different story. I wouldn’t be hiding from the cops though, just from him, his buddies and anyone they could hire to trace me (private investigator) and I am pretty sure how to circumvent that. I hired my own consultant.
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Hopeforjoy says:
The threat of violence is elusive when you don’t know what to expect. How can we judge violence when we are dealing with cowards with no values? Will they snap or not…
When spath says he checked out the house down the street (to purchase) so he could spy on me, then said “just kidding”, will this never end? It has taken so long to get him out, and it’s still a process, his violence was to deny me anything that I wanted. To do it in the name of love. It’s sick and twisted love, not real at all.
When he is gleeful because he thinks he can blame me for all that has come to pass, how cruel and violent is that.
Sometimes I think I’m luckier than most and I should be grateful for the life I have but he has caused me so much pain and I need to recognize it and honor it.
I think my daughter has really come to terms with her pain by disowning spath, disowning his being related to her at all. I cower and try to avoid inciting the spath because he goes all out with his verbal assults. I try to avoid the possible violence of his attacks.
He acts so normal, I just want him gone. He is evil.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
What’s his e.t.d. Hopeforjoy?
this is profound: ‘I think my daughter has really come to terms with her pain by disowning spath’ WE ALL NEED TO DO THIS!
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Hopeforjoy says:
One step,
He said he would be out in January. He has tried to stay for so long, begged and cried and bargained. When I look rationally at this behavior and would I act like that if he were the one to say it’s over? No way. Of course he wants to stay, being part of a make believe family is so important to him.
I lost what was important to me and that is to be treated with respect. To be treated like a person instead of a thing. I feel rather sad right now and I’m not sure why. I think I care too much about the lies he is spreading to his friends and family about me.
I have to stop wallowing and realized that the end is in site and I need to save my strength to protect myself and the kids. He still is trying to hug me all the time and I don’t want him touching me. I just walk away. Freak! It’s psychological warfare.
You have been on the receiving end of the psycho babble so you know what I’m talking about. It seeps into your bones and makes you tired and restless.
Thanks for asking One Step. I hope that by this time next year, it will be done!
How is everything with you? Did you resolve the issue at work? Your voice sounds stronger than you were. Your posts are longer and your pain seems to have subsided somewhat. Maybe I’m just hoping for healing for you and want you to feel better.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Maybe I’m just hoping for healing for you and want you to feel better. well, i’ll take your good wishes!
oh, things are whacked. really really stupid. lots of toxic exposures and ridiculous work problems. PTSd flag flying high.
BUT – many blessing in the last few days. many. and i do see some progress, even though things are very grim in some ways.
January? Any way to speed that up? I doubt he plans to actually leave. I suspect he’s using the time to plot and scheme, so you use your time similarly. I am not reading as much the last while and don’t know if i missed it – but can you get help to get him out sooner?
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Hopoe4joy,
Sugar I hear you, but Let me suggest that you tell him to “keep your fricking hands off of me. If you try to touch me again I will call the police and have your sorry ass thrown out of this house and taken to jail. I DO NOT WANT YOU TO TOUCH ME”
He is still trying to cross your boundaries and “hug” you. Make it CLEAR TO HIM your feelings. Quit pussyfooting around about it. I would be willing to bet he will say (In january) “I” be gone by March”
HE IS NOT GOING TO LEAVE UNTIL YOU MAKE HIM BY FORCE.
I actually don’t think you have physical violence to fear with him, why should he clock your plow? He can just continue to evade your boundaries and you don’t stand up for yourself.
Why let him live there…tell him to get a motel! GET OUT! Your daughter has her ADAMANT, get yours chickie! Throw out the wish bone and grow some more back bone! (thanks Gem for that phrase)
Give yourself the ultimate Christmas present—a P-FREE CHRISTMAS! (((hugs))))
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Hopeforjoy says:
One step,
He pity played me about Christmas, wanting to be here. He said it would take time to get a place, etc. He showed his hand by saying that he wanted son. Not gonna happen, I will fight that unless son expresses differently. It’s my job to know what is best for him, and that’s without his spath dad’s full time influence.
Oh, spath loves his little mask of the magnanimous, helpful, father of the year. He has been very careful with his mask.
I want to have him out sooner but at least the wheels have started turning. He has 30 days to respond to the divorce papers, so he will have to hire an attorney and get his butt in gear. I have done the best I can with my plans and don’t know what else I should be doing. I want to be done with him so I stopped spying, etc. Still need to be checking the financials though.
Happy to hear that you have had some positivity in your life, those good things really make the bad seem less bleak. Did you figure out what your doing over the holidays?
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Hopeforjoy says:
Oxy,
That is the gift that keeps on giving, ‘As seen on TV’ spath free Christmas, only $19.99 plus shipping and handling. Priceless!
I know about the back freaking bone. He triggers the I feel sorry for him response. This is where he is more the narc. because I see the injured little boy who will never have enough affection to fill the hole in him.
But, I am clear about the hugging but I think I have to just find a way to get him to lay the heck off. Call the cops? I need that in my back pocket, just in case. No way would he go to a hotel, he would say “make me”. And blah, blah, blah. How do I get him to leave by force? Something I will have to ask my attorney.
I love your sense of humor Oxy, and I’m glad you’re honest and tough on me because I need it!
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