Risk Assessment for Violence, Playing the Odds
By Ox Drover
I recently bought a book, Violence Risk and Threat Assessment: A Practical Guide for Mental Health and Criminal Justice Professionals, by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. I actually bought it to give some “credence” to the statistics I put into my letter to the parole board protesting the release on parole of the Trojan Horse-Psychopath that attacked our family,
Of course this book is directed, as the title says, to professionals, and to assess risk of violence. But since we are dealing with psychopaths, it is, I think, a good idea for us to be able also to look at the assessment for possible violence in our own psychopaths when we thwart their desires, or kick them to the curb. We need to answer the questions, “Is my psychopath likely to respond with violence? If so, how?”
Most violent individuals are not violent all the time. In the introduction, the author illustrates that “just because an abnormality (in behavior) … only shows on occasion, does not mean it has gone away.” (My emphasis.)
A “false negative” is when you decide that your individual will not be violent, and you are wrong. You may pay for this decision with your life. A “false positive” is when you think your individual will be prone to violence, and they are not. Being prepared for violence, even if your individual psychopath does not turn out to be physically violent is, of course, the safest way to play it. If you are going to err, erring on the side of caution is the best course. False positives are less damaging to us than false negatives.
There are also different kinds of “violence.” Not all violence that does damage to us is physical. Psychopaths can become financially violent and deprive us of our income, our estate, and a hundred other violations that we can all imagine.
Contributors to violence
Dr. Meloy uses what he calls a bio-psycho-social model for Violence Risk Assessment to assess an individual’s risk for violence. This consists of the biological aspects, the psychological aspects and the social aspects of the individual in question.
The first, the psychological domain, contains such things as gender, age, past history of violence, frequency of violence, how recent have they been violent, and severity of past violence, paranoia, intelligence, anger, fear problems, and the frequency and intensity of them, as well as control of impulses. Of course, the psychopathy and other attachment problems will weigh in heavily on this.
The second, the social or environmental domain, looks at the family of origin violence, economic instability and poverty, WEAPONS HISTORY, weapon skill, interest and approach behavior, as well as alcohol and or psycho-stimulant use.
The third domain is the biological one. Is there a history of head trauma, or major mental disorder (like untreated bi-polar disorder).
Dr. Meloy also emphasizes that the MOST IMPORTANT factor in his judgment is the history of past violence. The best predictor of future violence is a history of past violence.
Questions to ask yourself in doing your own “risk assessment for violence” in your psychopath are: How “provoked” is your psychopath by losing you? Do they have the paranoid personality disorder, in which they feel “that everyone is out to get them,” with a long memory for imagined slights or wounds from those people “out to get them”? Are they chronically angry, fearful and jealous? Some forms of illegal drugs will also contribute to paranoia, and as the use of drugs and the interest and reliance on weapons goes up, so does the risk of violence. Dr. Maloy mentions the killing of Nichole Brown Simpson, where she was not only killed, but after death her body almost beheaded. He says that drugs, along with the rage, could have easily lowered the threshold for the abandonment rage which probably motivated the killer.
Fear and stalking
Dr. Meloy also goes into the lack of difference between biochemical reactions to both fear and anger. Both cause the same reaction within the body. How intense is the anger response in the person you are evaluating? How does the person handle anger?
Dr. Meloy differentiates between two different kinds of violence by illustrating his text with a story about a cat.
We have all seen a cat, cornered by a dog, with its hackles raised, its tail up, hissing and spitting. That cat is emotionally reacting in a violent way to the fear inside it that it is going to be attacked by the dog. (This is called “affective” or emotional violence in reaction to a perceived threat.) Once the perceived threat is gone, the cat will quickly return to a state of calm. The purpose of this kind of violence is “threat reduction.”
The second type of violence illustrated with another story of a cat is the predatory violence, which is planned and purposeful and goal directed.
The planned and purposeful (or predatory) violence has a minimal or absent autonomic arousal, (which is the hair standing on end, the hissing and spitting etc.). As you observe the cat in predatory violence—such as stalking a mouse or bird—the cat is calm, cool and collected. It is focused on a goal as it stalks the prey. It tries to keep its purpose (violence) hidden and it tries to keep the prey from realizing that it is prey.
The brain chemicals released in each of these states of violence are completely different. The emotionally generated fear induced violence is a defense mechanism. It can still be a threat to anyone who is the perceived enemy, but it quickly subsides once the threat is gone.
With predatory violence, the predator is goal directed to do violence to the prey. They may plot and plan and take quite some time to stalk and corner the prey. The predator may strike without warning. Unlike emotionally (fear) induced violence, predatory violence is not time limited and the stalking may go on for days, weeks, months or years.
Knowing which type of violence your psychopathic adversary is involved with at any given moment can help you assess what your course of action should be. If the Psychopath is showing the “cornered cat” response, for example for being confronted in a lie, your best response is to just “back off” and let them calm down when the perceived threat is removed. If the psychopath is stalking you; emotionally, financially, or physically, they will not be so obvious to spot as the enraged cat. Once you have determined that the person you are dealing with is a psychopath, or likely one, you must assume that the person will engage in predatory violence on some level. The fact that this stalking and predatory violence may be very subtle does not make it any less dangerous.
In the short term, cornering one in a threatening manner (confrontation of any kind) can produce an emotionally violent response or even physical attack, but in the long term, the predatory violence can do more damage to us, body and soul. We need, I think, to assess the state our psychopath is operating in, and learn when to back off with confrontations, and when to prepare ourselves for “out of the blue” attacks when they are in a predatory state.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Elizabeth Conley says:
Hi OxDrover,
Here’s how I assess these issues.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefen.....ndset.html
It’s not as intellectual as your approach, but it’s kept my bacon out of the fire thus far.
All I’ve got to add is that you can’t go wrong with listening to and trusting your instincts. We usually blunder into trouble because we’ve ignored our instincts or forgotten how to listen to them entirely.
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 11:51am
Indigoblue says:
Yes
I learned early on in the 7 yr anti-relationship Bog! That to try to discuse an issue or make a point or confront a problem with His behavior was intirely a waste of breath! And When Alcohol was involved , I did’nt even have to say anything , but by me just trying to get distance from him while he was under the influence ! At several episodes the only intelegent thing to do was to altogether LEAVE. And Wait for him to pass out , or leave on his own or have him arrested! Thanks OxD LOVE JJ
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 12:03pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Elizabeth,
Oh, I agree with you on listening to our INSTINCTS. I just bought this book for a particular purpose and I saw some interesting new angles from Meloy’s intellectual angles.
Since I have recently been dealing with the PREDATORY violence of the Trojan Horse P who was a master of disguise and the predatory violence of my P son, who was “pulling his puppet strings” I realized I had been ignoring my instincts because of the nature of the predatory violence.
There are lots of ways to look at this risk assessment and I am now looking at things from a gut level now as well as from observation and assessment of past behavior.
Thanks for the link, Elizabeth, I believe the more we know about assessing people in general, violent or not, the better off we will be….
Indie, I AVOID ALL PEOPLE WHO DRINK TO EXCESS in terms of having any kind of close relationship with them.
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 12:16pm
holywatersalt says:
Thanks OxD.
t is good to always be cognizant that they may react and that no confrontation is worth it.
Mine was physically small and weak, he chose property damage. I found out, he had been destructive in past. And involved in shoving exwife around, not sure how far that went. I know too he had a lot of fantasies about violence and exacting it on exwives.
I have learned they lie about many things, but when they threat and call names- it’s them, it’s gospel.
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 12:39pm
Indigoblue says:
I am reading The Declaration of Human Rights
We do not Follow this Declartion in the USA are we still a member of the United Nations?
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 4:20pm
Indigoblue says:
Oh Thats Rite it is outdated 1949:(
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 4:30pm
lostingrief says:
indigo: i believe the declaration of human rights is from 1987. it’s not outdated, and no, we don’t follow it in this country … but hopefully our new president will make certain that we do.
peace.
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 5:59pm
Indigoblue says:
1949 is on the document
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 6:07pm
Indigoblue says:
Sorry Dec 10 1948
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 6:08pm
lostingrief says:
i have a booklet from 1987. maybe it was reissued then. gee, you’d think we’d have gotten it by now. we’ve had 90 years …
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 6:34pm
Indigoblue says:
I know it’s in our own Constitution but that is outdated too !
buy one get one free at the dollar store or BIG LOTS
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Saturday, 6 December 2008 @ 7:59pm
inthebreach57 says:
OxDrover,
That was REALLY good! I want to get that book after the holidays. The confrontational part was interesting in considering the recent behavior of my family member and would have been helpful having the knowledge to walk away from her and not engage in any conversation when she was in that violent mode but I didn’t see it until after I responded to her words and looked into her eyes, full of hatred and the smirk on her face of having done malice. Always creepy to see that even though it has been a rare occurrence to witness that in people. It throws you off balance like you have stepped into a different, confusing dimension.
This is a great topic OxDrover. I hope we can all stay on subject about it and share valuable experiences and input because there is a lot to be said and learned here.
I have to say it kind of peeves me to see people posting about (clipping their toenails), and I say this tongue in cheek not to hammer anyone; at least until we can get 100 or so blogs pertaining to the subjects before the jokes and side distractions come (which we all do need the humor). I just enjoy the information and experience people bring to the subjects because I seriously need this information exchange. The link Elizabeth posted was excellent too. Also, would like to buy the book on Emotional Vampirism. I’m sorry if I sound like a spoil sport because I have had some great titters and guffaws from reading some very funny posts of people on here. I just have a hard time scrolling through 20-30 one liners right when I am getting into the information exchange on serious subjects that will better our lives. Ok I’m sounding like a grouchy person who should stop there!
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 1:21am
inthebreach57 says:
OxDrover and Indigo,
OxDrover, I got the psych reports back yesterday- after 6 months of hell and waiting. More to the point, it has really been about 9 years of him telling me he was going to prove to “everyone I was crazy because I see a therapist”, and he was going to take my son and prove me unfit. I WON!!! Meaning it was recommended I be given full custody and his visitation will be limited- decided and agreed upon after my son and I meet with the GAL next week. Thank you Ancient of Days!!!!! Thank you OxDrover, for your powerful prayers and all of you who took the time to pray for my little boy and I. I continue to keep all of you in my prayers too. Everyone here is so diverse, individual, outspoken and full of loving advice which has kept me here. We get 1 hour in therapy a week when and if we can afford it, but here it is that back up in our day or week when things go well or wrong and we can come here to share and help one another. My therapist (don’t get to go much these days) has kept me going for many years but she can’t be there every moment; even so a therapist is like a precious gift for your spirit. Second, my daughter is moving back home for 6 months because she is getting engaged and married. She needs to save money as does her fiance for their wedding. I can’t wait to have her home! Very excited! Yesterday was a pouring out of blessings for my family. I am in praise and awe.
Indigo, can you post some of or all of The Declaration on Human Rights. I would like to see them. Thanks if you can.
Blessings, Breach
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 1:45am
shattered_sapphire says:
This was a very interesting read and valuable. It dawned on me just how many P’s I have encountered in my life and how to me things seemed so normal. Right now I am having my life infected by a virus that seems to grow stronger with each breath it takes. This virus has set out on a path of not only self destruction but has tried to wipe out those that love them like Hurricane Katrina. I have installed a new software in my brain to keep the hacking and intrusions out, however this virus is going out of it’s way to seek and destroy. In some ways I have let society know what kind of person this sick individual is. The backlash has been mind blowing. I read on here way back the man posting about who he was and how he would do anyone in who let the “cat out of the bag” and this is what I am dealing with. HELP!! It just won’t go away. Since they have yet to physically attack me the police are of no help at all. It’s sick how our system allows these horrible disease infested people get away with anything. My virus always stays just with in the limits of the law. What can I do? I moved. Stopped all communication with them and they seem too thrive on trying to find ways to “finish me off” without actual contact with me. This is even affecting people not involved with them. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
~Shattered
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 2:15am
Wini says:
shattered_sapphire: You said you moved. Did you also change jobs? If you are still working in the same location, they can follow you home any time they want … and then know where you live again.
Just know this fact.
Peace.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 2:53am
onajourney says:
Thank you very much, Oxdrover. This is very helpful information. I really appreciate that you wrote this report.
My p/s has paranoia (big time), he thinks everyone is out to get him, fascination with guns, and HISTORY OF VIOLENCE. This article is a confirmation to me that it is OK to be concerned about the possibility of violence.
I am wondering about people on this blog, have they witnessed the kind of response you noted at the end of your comments. Can they give examples of confronting the p/s about something (lies, finances, other love interest, stealing, etc. ) and a violent response following? Does anyone remember “backing off” from the p/s when they noticed the “cornered cat response”? I think it would be interesting to hear any examples and see what we could learn from them.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 3:31am
Indigoblue says:
How many ya want?
The last one. I wanted to sleep , I had to work the next day. I had put up with the rap crap music all evening so around 9:30pm I went to my room to sleep. He would not turn the music down! He Brought his boom box into my room so , I had had enough! I tried to explain! It is like talking to empty space! I pulled the plug on the boom box! So he wacked me in the head with the cord! I told him to leave my house and he punched me in the face!
I had to escape the house and then call Sherif!
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 5:48am
Indigoblue says:
Inthebreach
un.org/events/humanrights/2007
That should bring the whole Doc. up LOVE JJ
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 5:59am
BloggerT7165 says:
I put this in another post but since you are talking about it here I thought I could add it here also:
This December 10th is the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ratified by the United Nations. It is only 1700 words long but it is a very thoughtful document that, to me, every group/organization should read and follow. Sadly not a lot of people have ever even heard about this document let alone read it. Here is a link to it for those who wish to read it:
http://www.un.org/events/human…..20_eng.pdf
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 6:23am
BloggerT7165 says:
Odd that link doesnt seem to work when its compressed like that. Here is a link that hopefully will http://www.un.org/events/humanrights/udhr60/
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 6:26am
BloggerT7165 says:
Here is the link to the text version rather than the pdf version:
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 6:27am
BloggerT7165 says:
And the fixed pdf version link http://www.un.org/events/human.....20_eng.pdf
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 6:29am
Indigoblue says:
BloggerT
Right It was you who got me to go read it Thanks
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 6:35am
Elizabeth Conley says:
OxDrover,
While I agree that alcoholism is bad news, I’ve noticed that drugs cause at least as much trouble.
Two relationships in my life are profoundly effected by prescription drugs intended for pain management. One of the worst is neurontin, yet there is very little awareness of the hazards.
I find that the S who was getting opiates for pain management was able to manage the worst of his behaviors when he was not on the drugs because he couldn’t afford them. When he could afford them, he felt better but his behavior was atrocious.
We have a nutty member of our family who acts out in all sorts of bizarre ways. One of the things she does is diagnose herself with rare, incurable conditions. Then she shops on line for “webdoctors” and gets prescriptions for dangerous drugs I wouldn’t take on a dare. Neurontin is one of them. When she’s on it you never know what to expect. Paranoia, rages, and odd stupors all seem to go with the territory.
I wish these “pain clinics” and “webdoctors” would act more responsibly. Their patients can be dangerous, yet there doesn’t seem to be any monitoring of who prescribed what when the patient’s family and community is effected.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 10:33am
Elizabeth Conley says:
PS – and when you add prescription drugs to the picture, all bets are off when it comes to predicting behavior. Particularly neurontin. That stuff causes the most bizarre behavior ever, and the patient is totally unpredictable. You can have some clue that a person is under the influence of an opiate, but these new neurological agents like “lyrica” and neurontin cause a degree of unpredictability I’ve never encountered before.
That, and the “off label” prescribing habits of some doctors is totally cuckoo. They hand out dangerous toxins to all comers as if it were Halloween candy.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 10:40am
Escaped says:
Dear Elizabeth,
Are you saying that online Dr.s will prescribe drubs to patients they have never even seen?!! There is so much WRONG with that!
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 10:42am
shattered_sapphire says:
Wini: We have changed any and all routines except one. A legal name change. Which would be almost pointless because of legal costs and the fact that it knows too many people in my life. Some of whom do not realize who this person really is. It would be impossible to try and “control” the level of knowledge this one receives daily. It’s like a car wash vacuum sucking anything and everything from anyone in exchange for something. This disease has the capabilities of finding me through many means by the circle of friends the virus has. As you can tell I am getting slightly irritated lately. Innocents are being abused emotionally right at this very moment. The day the world sees it for who it really is will climb the ladder to one of the best days I have yet to see. Watching it use others and do them in to prove a truth to be a lie is horrible. Wini I try and pray for this person. I go from being angry, hurt & upset to complete guilt over feeling the way I feel at times. I’ve asked God to help me with this issue. He obviously wants me to deal with what is going on and make it to home base a little dirty having to get up and dust myself off. There is no other explanation. He only gives us what we can handle right?
God can be so powerful, he will do what needs to be done all in good time.
~Shattered
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 11:34am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Escaped,
Yepindoodles. “Webdoctors” are the legal pushers of our culture. Until they’re shut down or policed in some manner, we’ve got a scary problem that could pop up any where.
Law abiding citizens can get their dangerous fixes in the privacy of their own homes. Thanks “Webdoctors”.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 1:24pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Elizabeth,
I agree that drugs (of several kinds) are just as addicting as alcohol and cause as many or more problems. “Self medicating” for any problem with drugs incorrectly prescribed/used or alcohol can definitely cause unpredictable behavior, as well as combinations of these things.
I have seen neurotin used very successfully without the side effects you mentioned, but not in personality disordered people. Soemtimes with poly-pharmacy including street drugs, Rx drugs, and alcohol in combination with severe mental illness or dual diagnosis you can get some bizzare behavior and very violent.
The availability of “drugs” (sometimes COUNTERFIT DRUGS) over the internet is scary. I can’t tell you how scary it is to me.
Though I can barely afford my antidepressant, I will not order them over the internet for 10% of what I am paying here out of pocket because I am afraid of getting counterfit pills. You just don’t know who you are dealing with.
Learning about violence from a rational standpoint is something I think we should all do. Oh, just as an aside, Dr. Meloy was involved in a case I saw on 48 Hours Mystery the other day where a boy was put in prison for 10 years for a murder he DID NOT COMMIT on Dr. Meloy’s testimony looking at the violent drawings the kid made as a 15 year old, that was the ONLY EVIDENCE USED TO CONVICT THE KID. It turned out that the detective who persued this young man for years and with held evidence that the kid was not the murderer (who is now being sued) was proven wrong 20 years after the murder by DNA evidence of the real killer (who has yet to be prosecuted but is known) It was an ex boyfriend whose DNA was found on her mutilated body and inside her underware. Also two sets of foot prints proved she was carried, not dragged, by two people from the place she was murdered to where her body was left mutilated. Those foot prints and types of shoe did NOT match the boy’s. The boy is now out of prison, a man 37 years old whose life has been ruined by a probable psychopathic detective who to this day still states the boy had to be the one who did it (in spite of the DNA evidence). Ya ever know a P to admit they were wrong? LOL I’m sorry that Dr. Meloy was caught up in that case, it was a big black eye for him.
His book, though, is a really good book, I think, because it gives some very good examples on predicting behavior and violence. Though he is not always right (none of us can be) never the less we have to PLAY THE ODDS and err on the side of CAUTION.
Too many people have been hurt or killed because they could not “see” that “s/he would do something that horrible.”
Dear Shattered_sapphire, God won’t give us more than we can take, but He will give us from tiem to time ALL we can take I think, but just as in lifting weights to grow your muscles you have to attempt to do something you can barely do, it stretches our capabilities, just as exercise to the limit stretches the capabilities of the muscles.
I remember when I was a little kid in day school (age 4 I guess) thinking I could NEVER REMEMBER ALL THOSE LETTERS IN THE ALPHABET. It was just too much to expect me to memorize those things—-but I did. I remember in chemistery feeling that I could never remember all that stuff, it was just too much, but I did. Pushing ourselves past what WE think we can do but God knows we can helps us grow, just like the teacher pushing us to learn ALL THE ALPHABET. LOL Or my Chem prof making me memorize all the sugars and all the other formulas.
Just as I can look back and see my intellectual growth from memorizing the alphabet and the sugars, I can look back and see my SPIRITUAL growth through this time I have spent in trials and chaos and confusion. So even though this has been a painful learning process, just as learning the alphabet and the sugars were painful learning processes, I think in the end, it has been worth it.
I still “backslide” from time to time, and if something surprises me I “freak” out for a minute, but it isn’t “freaking out” for a month or a season like it was before. I am getting habituated to living a “normal” and “healthy” life, and thinking in a better manner, and behaving in a better manner—and having a better relationship spiritually and emotionally.
“It’s an ill wind that blows no one good.”
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 1:32pm
Escaped says:
Oxy, Thanks for the chemistry reference. I’m studying for my Final Exam on Tuesday right now and having a very difficult time. Perhaps changing my mindset to the “I Can” mindset will help!
In reference to the P detective you spoke of, that is one of the things I find most amazing in my malignant N ex. The ability to lie, deny in the face of undeniable evidence. I’d like to delve deaper in that one and how it relates to False Connsensus Bias and Cognitive dissonance as I read earlier today (via a link from someone on lovefraud). This is one of my x’s big tools. Unfortunately I gotta get back to the chemistry and then study for my other 2 finals this week. Blah! Means to an end…right?!
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 1:54pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Escaped,
Good luck with your studying and your exams. I have vivid memories of that, believe me! LOL You just sparked another article in my mind. I’ll tell you about it later, get back to work studying! LOL
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 4:22pm
shattered says:
Hi s-sapphire
I’m so sorry to hear what you are going through, I have been through the same. In the UK you can get an alarm fitted by the Police that links directly to the nearest police station, in cases of serious threats of violence. Can you get anything similar?
It will only protect you at home, but it does help give you peace of mind.
Not that it helped in my case, as the P’s will bide their time (as mine warned). If you have been seriously threatened you must keep your guard up. It took my P six months before he followed through with his threat (by then I had thought he had given up) , but even then did not do it himself, he paid someone else.
Be careful when you get in and out of your car. Make sure no one is hanging around your home, have your keys ready and answer the door to no one unless you know for sure who it is.
If in real doubt call the Police and ask them to check it out.
Take care xx
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 5:37pm
Jen2008 says:
Excellent article, Oxy. Sapphire, another book you might find helpful is The Psychology of Stalking: A Clinical and Forensic Perpective. It was edited by Meloy.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 7:09pm
Stargazer says:
Wow, I only had time to scan this article, and it’s another good one. Thanks, OxD. I definitely have my guard up now that the investigation is finally happening with my ex in the army. When it’s over, I haven’t ruled out the possibility that he could come after me. He doesn’t have a history of violence I’m told, but he is probably on lots of meds for his alleged “head injury” that we don’t know if he really has or not. What is most likely is that he will return to my reptile forum where I so happily spend so much of my time. If he does, I won’t even question the decision–I’ll just leave, as much as it will be like ripping off my left arm. After all, the internet is MY addiction, so it can only be a good thing in the end. Wish me luck. My deposition is tomorrow am.
OxD, how are you doing with the Trojan Horse P being out on parole?
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 8:16pm
Indigoblue says:
Star
~ Ssssssssss BIG SQUEEZE LOVE YA STAR JJ
Can’t you block a user on your site?
Does Levinworth have computers for inmates?
You Will Do Fine Star Trust the Force! Wear a Snake piece of Jewelry or a Snake Shirt . Take a piece of Skin with you to hold!
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 8:27pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Star,
Thanks for asking, actually, Friday when I found out he was released, I sort of “freaked out” in a combination of frustration, suprise and anger at the system not doing what it was supposed to. However, now that the “suprise” is over I am coping okay again. We are continuing to keep our guard up, keep doors locked, and be cautious, keeping fire arms near, but not living in terror by any means.
I did have my son C warn my mother that he was out, but she was so hateful to him about her sending moneyto my P-son that he said “I’m done with her completely” and is total NC with her now as well.
In the meantime I am contacting the warden at my P-son’s prison to send her a copy of the letter he wrote my mom about”phone calls” which the ONLY way he could make would be on a smuggled contraband cell phone, which due to the recent event of a prisoner on DEATH ROW where security is supposed to be at its highest, a prisoner on a smuggled cell phone called a Texas official and cursed him out. LOL So I am hoping at least that my son will be transferred to another prison to get him away from the access he obviously has to a phone. He uses his not insignificant electronic skills and his ability to build a solder iron out of an electric cord and a pencil to solder the wires to hide a cell phone inside any electric appliance. I don’t doubt that he has used that ability to hide one for someone else who in exchange lets him use it once in a while. If he’s transferred, then he will have to make new connections in a new prison, though he has been moved around enough he usually has “old pals” just about anywhere they send him now.
Good luck on your deposition, Star!!! I’ll keep you in my thoughts and prayers. TOWANDA!!!
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 8:41pm
Stargazer says:
Thank you, Indi and OxD. I will touch base some time afterward to let you all know how it went. Indi, I will wear my snake ring for good luck.
OxD, it just amazes me that we spend so much money to keep a murderer in prison, and yet the prison system is not smart enough to figure out how to keep cell phones out of the prison? I don’t get it. Sounds like you’re doing what you can behind the scenes. I’m certainly glad you’re feeling safer. I know when you’re relaxed and not in fight-or-flight reaction, you will probably make sounder decisions. Hopefully, the TH-P has better things to do this time around. I still think a tall chain link fence is not a bad idea……..
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 9:01pm
Stargazer says:
Oh, Indi, to answer your question, I can put a user on “ignore” but I still see their name when they post. I don’t even want to see or hear his name.
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Sunday, 7 December 2008 @ 9:06pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Star,
An electronic security outfit and a gun is more effective than a chain link fence! He knows that we have both! Personally, I thik that is the only reason my X-BF-P didn’t try to burn MY house like he did the GF prior to me. LOL
Oh, I heard from my friend that the X-BF-P got married a couple of months ago. My reaction was to feel sorry for the woman, she just doesn’t know what she has gotten herself in for. He has NEVER been faithful to a single woman he has been with—he cheated on his first wife for 32 years, even on his GFs that he had during that time with other women…each on thinking she was the “special” one….LOL I am just glad that “happy bride” wasn’t me, because I know the pain she is in for down the road when she catches him, and she will.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 11:27am
Stargazer says:
OxD, I’m glad you have some safety precautions in place. I’m not sure what a security outfit is. Sounds attractive! lol Yes, these cheaters just carve a path of pain and destruction everywhere they go. Did you read that the army investigators came here this morning? I posted about it on two other threads here.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 12:53pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Star,
The security “outfit” is an electronic security system on my house and farm that notifies us of intruders (or cows out of the pasture LOL). We also intend to upgrade this in the near future as well to cover more area.
I am cautious, but now that I have overcome the INITIAL SHOCK of the parole board doing stuff “under the radar” I am more calm about it now, just cautious, not terrified. I am noticing about myself that “sudden things” effect me more than they did before, but I also am getting my head back on straight “quicker” than I was in the worst of the chaos so I am regaining better control over my emotions and reactions than I had in the recent past, but still not “perfect” by a long shot, but VASTLY improved.
The old saying about “a coward dies 1000 deaths, the brave man but one,” is true, I am not going to “die a 1000″ deaths by living in terror. My sons at first were going to do a day shift and a night shift, with one of them awake at all times, and I told them both, if you want to do that, then we will pack up and LEAVE HERE. I am not going to live in terror and neither are you. Because if we have to do that we are not sufficiently safe to live here, so you guys make up your minds how you want to live. The TH-P is only 40 years old and my P-son is 37, so they have potentially long lives ahead of them and I won’t live like that the rest of my life and I don’t want you living that way either.
We have a reasonable security system, and we are all trained and armed in small weapons use and have adequate fire power available, so we either move to where we KNOW absolutely we are “safe” (as much as anyone can be) or we go on with our lives in caution, but not terror or hypervigilent.
One of the things I learned over all this is that STUFF or a home, or a place, none of that is really important. I would be MORE happy living in peace in a tent or on the street homeless rather than be living in a palace in fear and chaos.
I also learned that material things are not “security” at all. No matter how financially “secure” you are, you can always lose it in the blink of an eye. Just as no matter how healthy you are you can lose that in the blink of an eye as well. OUr “security” has to be from within and not depend on external things, however valuable those external things are.
The Bible tells us to “lay up treasures for yourself …where moth and rust and thives” can’t get to it. On this earth,, the only way you can lay up those treasures for youself is WITHIN yourself, not depending on anyone else or anything else. Though I loved my late husband dearly, and he loved me, nevertheless I depended too much on him for my happiness. He didn’t deliberately die to hurt me or leave me alone, but that’s what happened. He died, he left me alone without sufficient “treasures” within myself to maintain myself and that vulnerability was what made me fall for the P-XBF.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 1:51pm
Stargazer says:
OxD, you are the female equivalent to Clint Eastwood (who is one of my all-time favorites.) Do you ever watch any of his old movies? I was picturing the security outfit as bulletproof longjohns with metal plates in them for deflecting knives. LOL. Your house actually sounds very safe.
Your comment about how quickly you are bouncing back from traumatic events reminds me of a poster I saw years ago. It was a wise Hindu guru standing in a yoga posture on a surfboard. He was standing on one leg, while holding the other one up in a yoga posture with his hands in prayer position. The surfboard was on a large wave in the ocean. The caption said “You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf”. This was such a profound way of saying we cannot control all the bad things that may happen to us in life. But we can learn how to manage our responses to them. I think you have done well in your life. You are an example to me of triumphing over extreme adversity. There are so few role models for people like me because most people who grow up in such an abusive environment end up dead, in jail, or in a mental institution. Or just dying of a drug OD.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 2:02pm
Wini says:
StarG: I think that’s why they go to such extremes what they do to us … hoping we end up in mental institutions, in jail or drop dead of a heart attack.
Smile … Thanks for sharing the poster story. I’ll remember it.
Surfs up, hang 10!
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 3:06pm
Stargazer says:
Wini et al,
This actually turned out to be a great day. After the deposition, I was very nervous about giving a massage to a nearby chiropractor for the first time. What if she didn’t like the massage? She’s probably had lots of good ones. Also, I do my massages in my living room, which can seem not very professional. Well…..she said I was very good, and she wants to trade on a regular basis. She also talked about a lot of her clients she wants to refer. Woohoo!!!!! This means more income for me. She felt one of my massages was worth more than one chiropractic adjustment. She also wants to give me an aqua chi foot bath AND a chiropractic adjustment for every massage. The foot bath actually removes toxins from your body and leaves you feeling very energized. I wanted to get one every week, but couldn’t afford it. This all makes me very happy and builds my confidence in my chosen career.
This event was so much more important to me than what happens to the pathological liar I turned in to the army.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 5:09pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Star,
Nah, you wouldn’t mistake me for Clint Eastwood’s movie characters, I look more like Granny Clampett than Eastwood! LOL My P-son does call me “Osama, my mama” though! He said it joking, but I am sure he meant it as what I call “kidding on the square” where you say something nasty to someone that you MEAN, but you laugh like it is a big joke, so even though you meant what you said, they can’t get mad, cause if they do you just say, “Ah, get your panties out of your crack, I was just kidding.” LOL
My husband used to have a narcissistic jerk friend that I despised, and he would come over to the house all the time and I did him like that. He KNEW I despised him and the feeling was mutual I know, but I could say anything nasty to him and he couldn’t get “mad” (I know he felt it but couldn’t retaliate) LOL See how “evil” I am! LOL Fortunately, since the day of the memorial service for my husband I haven’t had to put up with the jerk any more.
Congratulations on your massage contact today, that’s my favorite thing in the world. I bought a great professional massage table Sat night at the auction for $50, looked it up on the net and it is retail $329 and is new, in the case, folding, great padding etc. My boys and I trade massages when we can’t afford to get a professional one, so this is great for us. Helps the old back muscles quit spasaming.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 7:25pm
Stargazer says:
OxD, you got a real deal, buying a massage table for $50. I have never seen one less than $200, and mine was about $700 or $800. I used to teach crash courses in massage for couples and family members who were willing to buy their own table. I don’t find too many people who are serious about buying their own table, though.
I’m realizing how easy it is to build up my practice with just the tiniest bit of marketing and networking.
Re: Clint Eastwood. Even he doesn’t look like Clint Eastwood anymore. He’s getting up there in years. I’d still marry him in a second though. Unless of course, Henry comes through first.
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Monday, 8 December 2008 @ 11:41pm
eyeswideshut says:
Very good article and posts. Thanks Oxy for your detailed insights.
I am about to corner my “rat”. He has no history of violence that I know of, but is very callous. A close freind keeps saying how “brutal” he is. When asked he agreed I could be in physical danger.
But if we live in fear then the terroists win, right?
I am thinking of putting my story, legal papers, backup, and some very very personally embarrassing ( to the rat) documents that I have in a safety deposit box. When I corner him (legally) I plan to let him know about the box. It would likely not protect me if he were to really want to “have me taken care of”, but it would seriously implicate him.
He put me in a place of fear and insecurity for many years. He is counting on the status quo. I plan to show no mercy through the legal system to the extent that I can afford it.
Any thoughts LF’ers?
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 10:02am
Indigoblue says:
Eyes Wideopen
Just posted this check my most recent post ! LOVE JJ
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 10:22am
nottakingitanymore says:
eyeswideshut,
No idea about your P, but here is what happened with mine.
He never hit me outright, he only “accidentally” hit me. But after the court case was settled (divorce), he hit me overtly in front of the kids.
What I believe is that during the marriage, he knew that if he ever hit me, I’d leave him. He knew this not because I threatened to leave, but because of general conversations on the topic. For example, in discussing some news story or something I would clearly say something like “If I were her, I’d have left him the first time he hit me.”
I can’t remember how we got on these topics, but I now have suspicions that he brought them up in order to explore just how far he could push me.
He played to the hilt the act of the “devoted” husband and father, right up until the court case. Once he was finished putting on the show for the judge and had the “win” he was after, he hit me. I also have pretty good evidence (photographs and multiple witnesses) that he manhandled our daughter, but she was so caught in his web that she would not admit to anything. (“I have no idea how those marks got on me.”)
My advice to anyone in a similar situation is to trust your instincts. Do you feel that you have to walk on eggshells in order to keep him from exploding with rage? If you’ve been walking on eggshells, that means that you are afraid. Ask yourself what it is you’re afraid of. In a normal relationship, you would not be afraid to disagree with your husband.
Even if his rage has always been verbal, it could easily escalate. I think that part of the reason that my ex was not overtly violent was his need to maintain the image he wanted to project. Once he no longer needed to maintain that image, the violence came out.
I think the type of man who is respected in the community but is also a psychopath does one of 2 things. One option is that he finds a victim that will not talk. This is pretty classic with the rich or powerful man whose wife enjoys the lifestyle he provides her. She doesn’t dare say anything because she fears that she will be on the street if she does. Sometimes the wife in this case has a very high need to appear respectable or stable as a family. Again, she is not likely to say anything. Another type of wife who will not talk is the one who is very religious and believes that her marriage is for life and that she has to make the best of it. Sometimes a woman like this also believes that the man is in charge and that she should be grateful for what he does for her.
In all of the above cases, the man can risk hitting the wife because he has a hold on her.
The second case is where the wife is more independent and he would risk losing her or risk exposure if he hit her. In this case, he may WANT to hit, but he holds back because he fears the consequences. In some ways, this is the more dangerous situation, because the woman doesn’t quite know what he’s capable of. He just seems threatening in a not very well-defined way. With the man who actually hits, his wife has a better idea of what he will do (although I imagine that these guys are capable of escalating, too).
My best advice: Trust your instincts.
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 11:28am
OxDrover says:
Dear Eyeswideshut,
My P-son is big on REVENGE for anything you have done to him. My P-XBF is also big on REVENGE, he keeps up a front in the community,, but he is sneaky, and he burned down the house of his GF previous to me because she dumped him.
So, there are “ways” they can “get you” even if they don’t overtly appear dangerous. Mine had a good idea how to get the thing you valued most—in her case was her Victorian house which contained all her grandmother’s antiques etc. In my case, he “got me” emotionally with a “zing”—in revenge for the “embarassment” I had caused him.
If you really do put the quash on him, and “hurt” him “where he lives” he in my opinion WILL “get even” in some way.
There is a difference (to us) in JUSTICE vs. REVENGE but to them Justice=revenge so if you make them pay the consequences so that they are “hurt” then they seek revenge against us in SOME way. You can just about count on that with a P. Quite frankly, it is like poking a badger in a corner in some instances and they will come out and BITE YOU.
I know that there is a BIG need in us to get JUSTICE, but at the same time, there is almost always (In MY experience) a PRICE TO PAY. They are “like an elephant, they NEVER FORGET” a slight, a “wrong,” or what they see as you “getting revenge” on them.
Look at OJ Simpson—he had hit his x wife plenty of times, but who would have thought he would have slaughtered her and her friend in a rage? Much less gotten away with it, but he finally did let his rages get him in prison, and frankly, I think it COULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED TO A NICER GUY. LOL
I remember vividly watching the expression of the Trojan Horse Psychopath after he was arrested, sitting in the orange jump suit and chains and jelly flip flops in the court room, smirking, chatting up my DIL who was sitting similarly attired behind him, the hateful looks she would shoot me, and the smirk never leaving his face. It was all a big game to him, and she was enraged that SHE was in jail. Not ashamed of what she had done, just enraged that I had in her estimation “won” and she was caught. (Of course this was her frist time in jail and he had a life time of arrests and incarcerations for long periods of time.)
He wasn’t afraid of jail, or even prison. He knew the system and how to do it, but even getting caught wasn’t a “failure” to him. He had habituated to prison, police and court rooms. He knew how to play the game and as far as he was concerned, even though he was in jail, he had “won” the game by injuring our family, by “stealing” my son’s wife, he was a WINNER in his estimation because he caused us pain and havoc.
During his time in prison he spent it trying to get charges filed on us for various things including mail tampering. He and my DIL even LIED to try to get this accomplished. They weren’t successful, but it wasn’t because they didn’t TRY.
They have NO SHAME, only a desire for REVENGE. So one way or another, many times, they will find a way to get revenge on you for you seeking justice.
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 2:24pm
Wini says:
Oxy, There’s a show that gets aired once in a while about prisoners having to face the family members of loved one they have murdered. How the staff in said prisons work with them to admit their crime then write detailed apology letters … the prison staff work with them to fine tune the outlines … so that they can eventually have the conversation of apology with the family.
What I found amazing with all these prisoners was how they were in such denial and how the prison staff worked with them over long periods of time to get them to first, acknowledge their crimes, then accept the responsibility for their offenses. Even after getting them to the place of acceptance in their minds, they still softened up the offenses of murder … calling the victims … intimate objects … aka the incident, the situation .. the this, the that … instead of calling it what it was … murder, taking another human beings life.
I’m shaking my head because I know my best friend (she also worked with us) ran into my former boss shopping at the Mall in the town she lives. How my boss told my best friend a story, totally denying her responsibility for what happened to destroy my career and how other managers sold her out which got her thrown out of the place we worked in. As far as I am any concern to her, I still don’t exist in this woman’s mind. I was never brought up in the conversation … and I had nothing to do with what transpired. Go figure. She always made me a non object … and a non object I still am in her own mind.
Talk about denial.
What is sad is this woman will continue destroying others she deems a threat. I never threatened this woman, but in her mind I had to be gotten rid of. I was her excuse not to have to be responsible in her position. What makes anyone think her negative mindset has or will ever change!. Oh, a little fairy came and waved a magic wand over her head … puff … you are now a positive secure individual!
Time for the courts to start assigning these folks therapy with competent therapist discussing issues on positive versus negative mindsets.
Peace.
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 3:22pm
keeping_faith says:
oXDrover,
This may be a stupid question, but the x S/P abused steroids. What affect can this have on his disposition, demeanor, behavior? I am not looking to make excuses for him because I DO believe his pathalogical lies and majority of his behavior do not stem from steroid abuse. I’m just wondering if it enhances an already angry, aggressive individual? If he stopped using steroids what would happen?
I have read some conflicting information. One article had stated that steroid abuse or use does not necessarily have the same symptoms on all users. He DID have small testicles and heart, liver, kidney problems and shaved his head (I think from hair loss) but no acne. Sometimes he would admit that he just (out of the blue) felt like punching someone in the face. He never harmed me physically but was very agressive emotionally in a very childish way.
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 3:30pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Keeping Faith,
I think that my P-son used steroids as a teenager while he was weight lifting (he denies it) because he BULKED UP VERY FAST. He was prone to rages anyway, but I think they made it worse.
Not all people have the same response to any drug, some more than others, and some not at all, so it is not a surprise to me that your X may not have had ALL the symptoms (I am a retired registered nurse practitioner).
Also, there are various types of “steroids” that some of the body builders and others take, so various responses too. Plus, some will take them a while, then lay off a while, then cycle again in hopes of negating some of the bad side effects. (that doesn’t completely work though!)
Wini, there are about 80% of prisoners who do not score 30 on the PCL-R and who may have some potential for being helped by therapy, but the psychopaths are only made worse by therapy. My own P-son wrote a “remorse letter” to the parole board in January of 2007 when he came up for Parole that his attorney for the parole hearing said “was the BEST remorse letter I ever read.” It really did sound literate and SINCERE, but we KNOW he is NOT sincere and that he actually GLORIES in how “much worse” his crime was than the cops even knew. (from a letter he wrote to the TH-P and also from what he said in exactly those same words to me and my son D on a visit to him.)
The psychopaths, or at least many of them, learn from these classes how to APPEAR to be remorseful and sincere, etc. and use that for an advanced class in “Psychopath manipulation–post graduate level.” My son has “Post doctoral studies” down pat! LOL
I know a man who is a minister to prisons (volunteer) and his recidivism rate is only 10% for those that graduate from his program, and I support that program completely, but my son has attended this program for 15+ years and gets great marks from some of the former ministers that he cons into believing that they have “reached him.” One man, who actually came to my husband’s memorial service to tape record it so that my son could see the tape of the memorial services and I have become quite good friends, and I have shown him my son’s letters, bragging about the crime being “so horrible” and so on, and I have educated this wonderful minister that not everyone in his program is sincere, but that some use it for the “benefits” it conveys in prison.
I get an email “newsletter” from the current volunteer minister and in the recent shake down of the Texas prisons after a smuggled cell phone was discovered in DEATH ROW produced 40 more cell phones and thousands of weapons in the Texas prisons, and he reported that Section E of the prison he worked in (where his inmates live) had NO weapons and only benign “contraband”—which can be as little as an extra pair of socks over the allowed number that they can have, or extra books in a cell, etc.
I do not believe for one minute that ALL the cell phones were discovered, as I have a letter written to my mother by my P-son where he is talking about his phone calls to her “once in a wihle” which tells me that he has ACCESS to a cell phone that they didn’t find. I sent a copy of that letter to the warden at his institution, and since he was discovered and caught with a cell phone himself (secreted inside an electric shaver) he will be well searched for one, and his buddies will be. I am sure he will NOT “snitch” but hopefully, he will be transferred to another prison to at least get him away from the phone he knows where it is. I don’t think he HAS it, but I think he probably traded his substantial electronic skills and soldering ability in hiding it in some electric appliance that one of his buddies has in exchange for the occasional phone call. Or he is paying the other inmate with commissary goodies for the use of the phone.
I was actually conned into sending money to another inmate to pay a “debt” he had, that helped him get the original cell phone inside—after it was discovered, he tried again to get me to fall for that one so he could get in another cell phone. The guards have to be bribed to bring in a phone, then since they are “use and toss” models, money has to be added by buying cards and the inmate calls someone on the outside who buys the cards, then gives the PIN number to the inmate who uses his own phone to call it in and add minutes to the phone. The way these things work, if they use an AT&T phone, they have a daily charge of $1, but can call any other AT&T phone “for free minutes” so it costs about $30 a month minimum if it is used every day, so it requires someone to support it from the outside. Once an inmate has money on his commissary account, he can have a check cut and sent to anyone he desires (except another inmate.)
Apparently, Guards are easily bribed, and people in the craft shops that can order supplies from “legitimate” businesses can also work around that too by having someone on the outside who has a “business address” that will send in contraband secreted inside what appear to be supplies for the craft shop. My son had two pick up truck loads of sewiing machines and other items for his boot making business. When he got caught with the phone, thrown into solitary and his craft shop priviledges lost, he had me drive to south texas to get his equipment and when I was putting it away, I had to take some of it apart to store more compactly, and I found two more cell phones in a boot stand. They did not have sim chips in them, though I am sure HE had the sim chips hidden somewhere. When they caught him with a phone (which he had apparently had for years before it was found) they did not find the sim chip, so could not prosecute him legally for having only “part” of a cell phone. It is a FELONY to help supply a cell phone to an inmate, because of the high risk to the institution and the escape risks.
I have no doubt that my son will violate every rule in the institution that he even partly thinks he can get away with, or even get away with for a short period of time. He has been busted and put in solitary at least once a year (on average) since he has been in prison for contraband and for weapons. He always gave us a “reason” he was busted, but I didn’t find out the REAL reasons until I read them in the letters he wrote to the Trojan HOrse Psychopath after the TH-P’s arrest.
Once when he was teaching a computer class to other inmates, he was caught with internet porn and DVDs of hard core porn, like 3,000 different items. He was then shipped to another institution, and prohibited from being near a computer again. He told us it was something trivial and no big deal. Ha ha Of course he has never told the truth, even when the truth would have “fit better.”
I wish I thought for one moment that there was any hope for the psychopaths to CARE about right from wrong, but unfortunately, the true Ps do not CARE and cannot be made to care, they enjoy things the way they are.
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 4:02pm
keeping_faith says:
xODrover,
As you write about appearing remorseful, I recall with the xS/P that his outrageous lies were very tearful displays. It helped in getting people to believe him, I’m sure. He told a story once about killing a “terrorist” on behalf of the US gov’t, (which did not happen) and cried as he talked about how remorseful he was because he later found out that the intel on this guy was not good.
I think that they are so good at imitating normal behavior that people believe them. All and any one of us. Yet how do you EVER know what is real and what isn’t? Is everything they do and say a lie? What is meaningful and what isn’t? Do they even live in the same world we do as they seem to experience things so differently? it’s so hard to comprehend. Some of the stereotypical characteristics of an S/P fit and some don’t seem to just because I have a hard time distinguishing whether his emotions were true or not all of the time. yet when I think now about how dangerous he has potential to be, I can’t even comprehend that I loved him and saw him so differently.
Do we experience them differently as we see the world from a more naive position or a more vulnerable state? The emotional pain was so bad yet I can’t help but remember all the great things he seemed to be when we met initially. maybe I should just be grateful that it only took me 2 years to get out.????
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 4:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Keeping_faith,
I lost my previous post to you, so will try again. LOL
To me, they are as different from us as a chimpanzee is. They share some of the same genes as do the great apes, but they do not have the “language” we do, or the comprehension of empathy, so there is no TRUE communication with them and us. Just as they cannot know what it feels like to be bonded to other humans, or to love, we cannot know what it feels like to NOT be bonded to others, or not to be able to comprehend what LOVE IS.
Just as a dog or other animal can learn that some words have “meaning” and that they are “rewarded” for doing some action when they hear that word, yet, that same animal cannot truly communicate with us in a language that we can both understand about abstract thoughts.
My dog knows that if he goes to the door I will get up and let him out when he wants to go. He will sit up and beg sometimes if I am eating thiking that if he does this action it will increase his chances of getting some of what I am eating. (It ususally does! LOL) Yet, recently when he got a Doggie STD from a neighborhood bitch he chased after in heat, he started to be in pain. He has always been a “talker” and he tried for days to tell me he was in pain, but I did not “understand” until I saw him moaning as he slept and saw him losing weight. He had no fever, and no obvious injury so I assumed that he was just being more “needy” for attention than usual. He IS a “needy” dog BTW. Eventually when I figured out he was in pain, I took him to the vet. When I brought him home, I was more attuned to his whining and a few days later I realized he was NOT getting better and took him back for a few days of inpatient treatment. I picked him up today and will fatten him back up and then he goes back for neutering so his prostate will shrink back and not cause him more pain in the future. So we did communicate, but not really well. He didn’t really know how to say “Pain, Mommie, I am hurting” in clear enough language to get me to know what he was talking about.
Infants are the same way, they don’t have the language to truly communicate with us on our level. Neither do the Ps.
The Ps however, learn to “fake” communication on emotional level by “acting” the part, the physical performance part of emotions, but not the feeling part. Some of them are outstanding actors. My P son is an outstanding actor, he knows the words, the phrases, the facial expressions and 99% of the time he is GREAT! When he becomes frustrated though with getting his way, he will DROP THE MASK and I will see the REAL HIM, Satan personafied looking out through his eyes with what I can only describe as “looking directly into the unshielded eyes of Satan.” My mother has that look as well when she is angry, and my P-bio-father does, and so does the Trojan HOrse Psychopath that invaded our family. My X-DIL has it as well. I have never ever had anyone else look at me “in that tone of voice.” Though my mother has very little that would Ding a point on the PCL-R, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t have some of those characteristics. She is also a great actress, and willing to hurt me in order to control me. So she has some definite Narcissistic/psychopathic behaviors. I do wonder though how much of it was trained into her from her enabling mother though. The difference is that my mother will freely devalue and PUNISH you for not going along with her program, and my enabling grandmother did NOT punish people, but was more passive. My mother’s brother was a flaming psychopath and also probably, in retrospect self medicating for bi-polar with alcohol. Iknow one thing when he was manic he was drunk and meaner’n'a-snake.
Yes, I think we experience them from the same reference that they experience us, without TRUE understanding of them. We can only judge their “feeligns” by their behavior, and they can only judge our feelings by how we behave when we are “sad” or “mad” or “glad” or “in love.” They learn to fake those responses pretty well in some cases.
Yes, you should be grateful thatyou got out after “only” two years, BUT even that two years I am sure has left you in confusion and pain. The things WE can do though that they CANNOT do is to LEARN FROM OUR EXPERIENCE and to learn the RED FLAGS of warning that they put off. Our instincts are better than we give them credit for being, and we MUST LISTEN to our inner workings and heed those warnings and run away from potential danger before we get trapped and harmed again. That is the TAKE HOME LESSONS OF THE PS.
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Tuesday, 9 December 2008 @ 5:23pm
keeping_faith says:
OXDrover,
Thanks and I’m sorry you had to rewrite this. I lost a few posts yesterday as well.
Your analogies are good and help me to comprehend this from your perspective. I am so sorry for what you must have gone through, particularly with your son.
The XS/P is a pathalogical liar and as I look back I DID SEE RED FLAGS. I was going through such a tough time and believed this man was going to take care of me emotionally. He initially was very generous and protective. I though the was a little jealous but that wasn’t it. I just can’t imagine living life covering my ass to cover lies. The phony, fake image he created of himself, the stories, tears, pathalogy of it all…….
It is a year since I told him to F OFF and it’s just been recently that I am staring to feel like “what the hell was i thinking and why did I take this shit for so long?” Seriously. I used to think of the trips we took and the dinners we had and the things he said…… and now I quickly can think of abuses and lies and threatening situations to cancel out all that I thought was good. It’s amazing how clouded everything became to me.
I did have contact with a woman with whom he had an affair four years ago. I had to find out if he told the same lies to her, or was it just me. She verified all the stories. But she still to this day did not know the truth until I told her. She IS STILL IN LOVE WITH HIM and talked about how wonderful he was to her in the beginning and that even when he discarded her that he always came back…..but not the last time. She said she wanted to die. I don’t want to be like that three years from now. I was the one who exposed him and his horrible lies. he made up stories to seem empathetic. he made up stories to generate pity. It worked. It works with his adult daughters to this day. The drama in that family is disgusting. The way they play each other is sick. This woman believed everything he said and NEVER questioned him. I did and I’m happy about that. it’s the one thing that keeps me feeling sane, when all along I thought I must be doing something wrong. I didn’t expose him for revenge, but to keep him away from me and to realize that it WAS him all along. I didn’t cause what happened but I can choose to not be a victim. I just feared that if he finds out that his face is on the internet on a legitimate site as a phony and his embarrassing stories are exposed, that he may seek revenge…… although experts have told me he wouldn’t dare because he would have to deal with the FBI.
I lost myself in him and his abuse. I gave up my good intuition and questioned my own behavior and beliefs. I allowed him to control me. I will never do that again.
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Wednesday, 10 December 2008 @ 9:05am
OxDrover says:
Dear Keeping_faith,
Whether or not he seeks open or sneaky revenge depends on a lot of things, one of the thing syou taked about though is the FBI, unless he is peddling drugs, a terrorist, or a white collar crook, don’t be so sure they will jump in, and secondly–the psychopaths don’t always consider the consequences, that lack of fear (they won’t get caught, you know, they’re too smart) doesn’t stop them like it might you or me. I don’t rob banks, though I might like the money, because I am AFRAID I would get caught (if for no other reason) and no matter how bad off I was I would NOT try to rob a bank. If I was hungry I might try to steal $5 from a Church pllate passing around, but I would NEVER rob a bank. (if that analogy makes sense) because if I got caught trying to take $5 from the plate, they would “have to” forgive me and feed me, but the Feebies would put me in prison whether I got any money or not no matter how much I told them I “repented.”
For some reason the Ps are willing to take AWFUL long odds of chances to get what they want without stopping to consider what I call the “risk benefit ratio”—-(as WE see it a risk vs a benefit at least).
Exposing one as a fake has various levels of success too, the next victim will seldom (if ever) believe you as they are already in the FOG of the faker.
I feel for that past vistim of his, and yes, they like to return to old victories and gloat that they can go back any time they want to. If you have a chance of helping someone it might be her. It would I think be a kindness to her and maybe she will come to lovefraud and learn as well. Maybe she can free herself and heal.
I too am glad thatyou questioned him. Many victims are like the first victim of your P and go a lifetime of pain, believing their lies, others question and get beaten down for long periods of time, or life, and some percentage are like us, we question, try to resolve it, excuse it, then eventually break free. I know a couple of older women who were married ot theirs for 40-50 years and finally broke free–I guess that would be the GOLDEN DIVORCE instead of the Golden Anniversary. Sometimes they must give up even their children to his deceit. I know one sweet woman in AZ who is in her 70s and in very poor health, living alone, far from her family of children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, and even her sisters are in the FOG about this man. She lost everything just about except her mind in what should have been the “golden years” with her family, but I applaud her for finding herself if nothing else, finally at the end of her life, but still it does cause her great pain and lonliness.
I am fortunate that I have two sons who both believe me NOW, though my oldest son was in a crack between the devil and the deep blue sea, married to one P who hated me, and my mother who was enabling the other P, my youngest bio son, P. When his wife and the Trojan Horse P (who were having an affair) tried to kill him, he realized that I had been “right all along” about this woman he met on the internet and had been married to for 7 years—she was a gold digger. She had done all the “classic” things from isolating him from family (especially me) though she “loooooved grandma” cause grandma at least eventually believed her lies and act, I never did.
My P son in prison knew about and approved of the affair, and I read a letter he wrote to her that gave the “when you light one candle from another, it in no way diminishes the light of the first one” as an analogy that her affair with the Trojan Horse Psycopath was not TAKING AWAY FROM HER MARRIAGE, and then went on to say that she “should work on your relationship with C (her husband)” that it would make for a happier family. DUH????
What Hare said about them not getting the contradictions is soooo true. They do NOT get it at all. How could he in the same letter, encourage her “friendship” and sexual relationship with the TH-P and in the same letter tell her to “work on her relationship” with her husband? Could my P-son not see the contradiction? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Did he not see that HE was being disloyal to his blood brother by encouraging his brother’s wife to continue an affair with a (pretend) “family friend?”
The part of our brain that tries to keep even lies consistent somehow doesn’t work in the psychopaths. What part(s) of the brain that is should be an interesting study for someone. It is possible that it is a software problem since they are not able to FEEL the emotions that they pretend to feel, but just the LOGICAL part of it I would think would be OBVIOUS to anyone not a P, but somehow, they don’t get it.
I am glad that you chose to not be a victim. Each of us here have chosen that same thing. We choose to be EX-victims, and to not be victims again. We choose to not let this experience define our lives forever, we choose to learn and grow and become stronger, wiser people. Welcome to LF, and I pray that your journey of self discovery and healing will be a smoother one because of it.
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Wednesday, 10 December 2008 @ 10:29am
keeping_faith says:
oxDrover,
Thank you so much for your response. What you said in the end of your post makes sense. Although it didn’t when the aftermath of all of this began. I TRULY did not understand what I was dealing with as i believe his x wife and x affair and daughters and probably many others may never EVER have looked deeply enough to know. And maybe they don’t want to.
What seems so odd to me too is that HE ACTUALLY BELIEVES THE THINGS HE HAS SAID. When I confronted him with the lies about being in special ops and having had killed terrorists etc…. he just made up more excuses and more lies and when I think of the tears he cried as he told the bizarre stories or torture, I wonder if he truly is delusional??? He actually told me to ask his 22 yr old daughter about him being in special ops (after i already had the truth in my hands) I asked him why he wouldn’t tell me to ask his sister or someone who was actually alive when he was supposedly in the military…… he would then become abusive and rage at me. On his mother’s death bed, she was whispering to him to “tell the truth and confess”. i was in the room and his daughters and he said she was senile and didn’t know what she was saying. Later I found that his x affair actually attended his fathers funeral (accross the country from where he lived) because his x wife didn’t want to travel. So obviously his mother knew. i suspect she knew a whole lot more. At one point she had told him that his daughter needed psychological help and he didn’t speak to his mother for several years. his sister told me this and I believe his mother was correct.
BUT for a period of time I believed him and even doubted myself when I knew the truth. it’s wierd. I WANTED what I thought he had to give me not knowing there was nothing real there. In some ways the whole relationship was in my own mind. Now if I said things like this to people who have not experienced a sociopath/psychopath, they would think I am crazy. But I know you must understand what I am saying. The truth was so twisted in my own mind !
The FBI doesn’t really care about him unless they had hard proof that he really killed someone. I don’t have that. i don’t think he is (or has been) a violent S/P in the sense of breaking the law but violent in his own right to manipulate and harm in seriously emotional ways. It is evident in his daughter’s behavior and the people he is now “hanging out” with. The man is 51 yrs old now and behaves like a delinquent teenager, just doing enough to not get arrested. WHat the hell did I see in him in the first place? I think he wanted me to believe he was someone else and i did. but he couldn’t keep it up or I prefer to think he couldn’t pull one over on me for much longer.
At one point, while he was stalking me, I had a sheriff call him to tell him to stop. He followed me to work (50 mls away) one day. He also caused a scene in public at the gym and he embarrassed himself. Three young guys had to tell him to stop harrassing me. I think he was concerned about the fact that I had over 30 incidents documented of him following me and chasing me in his car and calling my cell at all hours, that he actually went to an attorney and had them write ME a letter telling me to stay away from him and HIS home (the one I built with him that he lives in now with a former criminal). It was disturbing yet laughable at the same time. HE WAS FOLLOWING ME. I spoke to a woman in victims resources for the county and she told me not to respond to the attorney. So I didn’t. I think he may actually believe in his mind that he is right but i think it’s about winning to him. Right?
The only thing that may help me in terms of the public exposure of his lies on the internet is that if he goes kicking and screaming to the org that posted the info, they will have the FBI on him to investigate him a nd he doesn’t want his family and new friends and neighbors dragged into it. Then he can not APPEAR to have won. Does that make sense?
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Wednesday, 10 December 2008 @ 10:58am
OxDrover says:
I’m not sure what organization you had him posted on (a military faker one?) but I sincerely doubt that the FBI would get involved unless he used this “lie” for an illegal thing. If they did that (investigate all liars about military service) they would have time for NOTHING ELSE. LOL
Yes, they sometimes respond by projecting their bad behavior on to you, and I guess he thought that would look good in court if he accused you of what HE was doing. LOL
You are right, people who have no experience with a P don’t usually get it until they do. Even then sometimes not.
ANY response to a stalker is a “win” for them. Just keep yourself safe is the only way to win. I won’t live in terror, but at the same time, I’m not a fool either, as I know that my stalkers are out for my life…right now with the one stalker just out of prison on parole (and I have talked to the parole board and his parole officer) but he is limited in his resources and he KNOWS we are armed at all time, and the other one (my P-son) is in prison in another state, and though he is getting money from my enabling mother (who knows everything he has done and still goes for his pity play) at least we are currently keeping an eye on his correspondence with her and forwarding the incriminating things in it to the warden of his institution. Hopefully he will get busted down a level in custody from minimum to maximum and or shipped to another institution where he will have to reestablish contacts and connections again. If I can keep him “rolling” from one institution to another often enough, even though he has been moved enough in the past that he has friends just abot in every insittution in TExas, it will put him off guard and off his connections for at least a while each time he is moved, plus the move itself is on a chain gang on a bus and may take days or even weeks. The more he is shuffled around the better for me.
I wish I could stop my mother from sending him money as the lack of money in prison is extremely disabling to their plots and plans. She is doing it and lying to us about it. (at least to my son C who was not totally NC with her until recently).
Some of “them” like to keep up a public front of respectability, and that fake face is important to them. My X-BF who is a P is one of those. His wife of 32 years caught him (finally) in an affair and kicked him out, and he was looking for another “respectable” wife to cheat on.Thank God I found out before I married him, but I was head over heals in heaven for about 4 months, then 4 months of pain and doubt, then another few months of anger and bitterness (and relief I didn’t get snagged worse).
I heard he recently got married again, and I actually feel sorry for the woman. He still has his “harem” of long time cheating women who know he is married and now with a respectable wife, he can tell them “no, I can’t leave ‘Suzie’ but let’s just be F–buddies like we have been for 8 or 20 years”
IN order to get revenge on his last GF before me, he burned her house, so keep your guard up–we were not able to prove it, but everyone that really “knows” him has enough evidence to know it (even the XGF) some of the “respectable” ones are SNEAKY with their vengence. Others, like my son are not and go straight for the kill, but I will say this one, my P-son did come up with a SNEAKY way to get the Trojan Horse Psychopath into our family as a “friend.” Thus the name.
I am a bit leary of them being violent openly or stabbiing you in the back, and since he is a stalker, he definitely has a grudge against you, so better be safe than sorry. BTW a can of “Easy off Oven Cleaner” make a hell of a defense weapon. Get the kind that is not “odor free” and the kind with the can that sprays out the TOP of the nozzle not the size (like hair spray) if you can. They are cheap, VERY effective if sprayed on the face or even the skin anywhere, face is best. Much better than mace or anything else, and LEGAL, and CHEAP. I used to keep a can on every flat surface in my house and a couple in my car when I lived in a state I couldn’t carry a concealed pistol. Now I let Smith and Wesson be my “security service,” along with a good security system at my home and farm, and I am going today to get a new dog for the house, a LARGE new dog of a protective breed, a year old. I have trained dogs for years for obedience and even protection, so in the next 90 days I will be working with “Phideaux” (that’s Fido in Cajun”) every day. He’s a perfect age and is also a rescue dog (free) so that should meet my needs well.
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Wednesday, 10 December 2008 @ 2:12pm
eyeswideshut says:
Dear Oxy, You are the best!. Will read all the recent posts when I have more time but yes…..Easy Off, I love it!. I keep a conainter of a squirtable professional toilet bowl cleaner near the door ( causitic acid?) and enjoy my three very large dogs that love me very much.
When I do take legal action (shortly) I plan to stay with freinds or be otherwise scarce.
Right now he is playing a big game of having entrapped my kids in a financial mess with big promises and is now putting the onus on me to release $$ held in escrow or else my sons credit rating, vehicles, jobs etc go down the tubes. All carefully planned and orchestrated.
No shame, no conscience, no remorse. How many times do we have to see it to believe it.
Peace to all,
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 9:50am
keeping_faith says:
OxDrover,
The more I read about the potential to be dangerous, themore nervous it makes me. Again, even though he has not been arrested for anything, (that I am aware of) it doesnt’ mean he doesn’t have that potentail to BE dangerous. Scott Peterson did not have a criminal history right?
The kinds of things he did to be vengeful were very immature….. not thinking of the consequences to himself….like, texting my son (a teenager) and justifying being in bed with a woman 18 yrs younger by telling him he did it because I hate his children and he loves mine so much or leaving a letter (five of them) at every entrance to my home and in my mailbox while I was at work, accusing me of cheating when he knew my kids would find them. Calling my friends and telling them how crazy my behavior is after he stood me up several times, calling me names and being abusive……. I actually watch him stomp up and down on a pair of sunglasses I bought him because he was mad at me for questioning him.
I think he wants to APPEAR intimidating, hence the lies about special ops, killing people, chasing terrorists. THe hero wannabe??? The FBI has a tough enough time convicting these liars when they have also committed arson and murder, let alone wasting their time on the ones who threaten and intimidate. Unfortunately, you have to actually commit a crime first. No such thing as being proactive in these cases because there are so many of them who are just big talkers. THe whole thing is just disturbing !! And I don’t underestimate the potential.. Thanks for your support and I really menat that. When I read your story OxDrover, I realize that my situation is minor but it hurts all the same to be duped by someone you were convinced truly cared about you.
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 10:13am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Keeping Faith,
Consider paying a little money to have him investigated. Don’t invest more than about 75 bucks, and confine your search to whichever state/states he’s lived in within 5 years.
If there aren’t any incidents, relax a bit. Past behavior is an excellent predictor of future behavior. That being said, everyone should develop good “HABITS” and do their home security “WALK AWAYS”.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pyramid.html
I suggest you worry as little as possible. Consider taking reasonable steps to reduce your risk and then giving yourself a well deserved pat on the back. The payoff can be enormous.
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 10:37am
keeping_faith says:
Elizabeth,
Thank you. It’s a year later but only about 8 months since the stalking ended. I did have some help from an organization who helped me to investigate his military record. I had correspondence with an author who wrote a book about special ops phonies and they basically told me the truth. I also learned that he did not subsequently work for a gov’t agency (under cover) and each time he lied to me it came in the form of a dramatic story usually with tears. He didn’t use aliases or kill people….on and on and on.
He didn’t earn what he said. Everything he owns was given to him. I’m not sure he was an abused child based on conversations with his sister. His daughters are manipulative and angry adults. His x wife and previous girlfriend are in denial. He is impulsive and abusive and I have no doubt he is a sociopath. he may be a milder form in that he hasn’t committed a crime by law but he is immoral and unethical at a minimum.
Thank you for your support. I am so glad I found this place.
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 11:20am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Awesome. If there’s no history of actual assaults, domestic or otherwise, you can probably relax a little bit. That’s not to minimize what you’re going through. Mind games are the worst!!!
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 11:22am
Indigoblue says:
They just found the remains of a small girl just a small distance from the Anthonys House! ferified child! Casy Anthony is cooked I hope she gets life so she can dwell on little snot nose ruining her social life ! she is the PSYcopath of the moment and she deserves death But I would’nt let her get off that easy I would rather Pay for her to ROT! LOVE JJ
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 11:48am
blondie says:
as sad as this case is, i hope that body is caylee to put this case to rest and finally get justice for that little girl she didt deserve any of this. i hope that casey gets what she deserves
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 12:58pm
OxDrover says:
I picked up a book at a junk store yesrday written by a “contributitin g Forensic Psychiatrist on Court TV” Dr. Keith Ablow, M.D. called “Inside the Mind of Scott Peterson” about what made Scott into a viiolent killer.
As I read this book, my BLOOD BOILED at the ignorance and stupidity of this “Contribuiting Forensic Psychiatrist” and his idiotic (am I holding back my opinions of this guy too much for you all?)
He went to great lengths to IMAGINE that the murder of Scott Peterson’s grandfather when his mother Jackie was 2, and Jackie being raised in an orphanage for several years was THE FACTOR that caused Jackie to be “cold” to Scott and that his father (who didn’t like kids) and was a cold fish was what kept Scott from having empathy.
Dr. Ablow reported that Scott’s mother, Jackie was a pathological liar and that family members said “Jackie lies about anything and everything. She would not confirom your recollection or view of anything, if it didn’t suit her.”
He went on to talk about the LOVE that Scott had for Amber Frey his girl friend and that if she had just given him UNCONDITIONAL love that it would have changed Scott, if she had not told him that if he was married she wouldn’t stay with him.
Can we say BULL CHIT children?
Dr. What’s-his-face even said, when talking about the “pity ploy” that Scott gave Amber (complete with fake tears) “I do not believe he could have faked every iotal of what Amber Freydescribed–the breathlessness, the tears streaming down his face, the difficulty swallowing, the stunning admission that he had lied to her in the past.” (This was when Amber had found out he was married, and he “confessed” that he HAD been married but his wife had DIED!
Yet, he also said that Scott had “No empathy. No feelings of guilt. Scott was displaying the hallmarks of sociopathy.” He went on to say that “classic sociopahts like Scott are “unmoved by the suffering of others.”
He also quoted several passages from “The Mask of Sanity” but in the end he said that his opinon was that Scott Peterson was “legally insane” and had no control over his behavior, that his mother’s coldness and his father’s coldness had taken away all of Scott’s emotions and he couldn’t help himself.
Scott had apprently gotten a girl preg when he was in college and his mother had come and talked the girl into an abortion and Dr. What-shis-face surmises and imagines that “If his girlfriend had put it this way, “I would never destroy this baby, Scott, because it is part of you, and I love you” then we might never have watched Laci Peterson’s body pulled from the San Francisco Bay, or Scott Peterson on tiral for her murder and that of his unborn son. We have the capacity to heal one another.”
AH, COME ON, WHAT MATCH BOX DID THIS JERK GET HIS MD FROM?
Dr. Ablow seems to think that if Scott Peterson had gotten Unconditional love from any of the many women he cheated on Laci with, or from Amber Frey, or that the girl carrying his child that she later aborted, he would have had a “spark” that would have made him able to love.
It appals me that someone who presents themselves to the media as an “expert” in this sort of thing, apparently knows SQUAT about the potential violence of the psychopath, or that ANY of them, under the right circumstances of being “caught” in a web of responsibility that they don’t want to assume can see violence, even murder as a “way out.” How someone who presents himself as an “expert” knows absolutely nothing about how real psychopaths act.
Blub blub blub!!! That’s the sound of my blood boiling folks!!!
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 1:35pm
OxDrover says:
The Anthony case is another example of how the underestimation of the potential for violence in the psychopath causes injuries and deaths.
The grandmother “made” the daughter keep the baby when she wanted to give her up for adoption, to “teach her responsibility’ and what happened–she killed the baby.
I tried to “make” my psychopathic teenager not violate the law too, and what did it get me?
If a psychopath is cornered where they feel they are trapped by something and prevented from getting what they want, I am convinced any and all of them under the right circumsances can and will consider murder, and especially if they are like my P son and are so arrogant about their own smarts and the “threat” is real enough to them, that they will do what they can to quell the threat. Also the violence brought on by a momentary rage is also I think underestimated.
My opinion (for what little it’s worth given the little I know) I think that the baby was probably killed in a fit of rage at the child’s crying or other inconveniencing of her P-mother, then the cover up of disposing of the body. I don’t think it was planned in advance.
The entire family situation sounds really dysfunctional at best, with enabling etc. but the bottom line was that if the girl’s mother had let her give the baby up for adoption, that child would be alive today. Forced parenthood doesn’t work–EVER, and especially not with a psychopath as the “parent.”
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 1:45pm
Indigoblue says:
OxD
I have heard it mentionedd that perhaps she was only trying to get the baby to sleep. Chloraform . And your right If they had just taken the baby away from her the child might still be alive today LOVE JJ
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 4:26pm
Indigoblue says:
OxD
~
Hence the Location of the Book !
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 4:31pm
henry says:
and wasn’t that little girl the most adorable child? so sad…
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 8:45pm
sstiles54 says:
I, too, e-mailed the effa-b-eye, about my ex. s.’s confession to me that he had killed a man out in California. The s. worked for a loan shark, & did “collection activities”. The FBI wrote me back, saying they appreciated the info, but were so busy & understaffed, they didn’t have the manpower to do anything. I kept thinking to myself,”..But that man who was killed was some body’s dad or husband or son. How would the family feel, if they knew no one had time to investigate why this man was beaten to death with a ball bat, & tossed into a ditch? It’s just sickening to me.
In other posts, the look of a P.’s eyes has been mentioned , for some reason I kept thinking about this. I think the ole drunk shark boat captain in “Jaws” just about nails it–the eyes are dead, like a doll’s eyes. spooky.
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Thursday, 11 December 2008 @ 9:09pm
OxDrover says:
Stiles,
I would suggest that you contact the California Bureau of Investigation, or if you know the city or county where this crime was committed, or the name of the victim, anything that is SPECIFIC to this crime. It isn’t likely that anyone will take up the COLD CASE but sometimes they are taken up, especially if you have some specific evidence. Anything, like the year(s) it probably happened, etc might be a help to them to get them to look into it.
Of course, too, your S may have lied to you about it entirely, or not given you enough SPECIFIC information to do anything about. If someone just tells you “I killed someone in California” that isn’t specific enough to go on and no one, even the Feebies couldn’t trace down something like that that might not even be true in the first place. Sometimes they like to brag, but they are bragging about something that didn’t happen. My P-bio-father bragged about murders he had committed, but he was such a LIAR about EVERYTHING, I only know of TWO people he actually did kill, but there was no way that I Would have had enough evidence to get him convicted, plus, both of those murders took place outside of the US and the bodies were completely destroyed. One man was tossed from an aircraft at 12,000 feet into the ocean, and another man was fed to crocs in the African bush after he was tortured to death. As far as I know those are the only two murders he committed that I truly BELIEVE. I talked to one witness for the man tossed out of the airplane into the ocean that verified my father’s story (it happened so quickly the witness could not have stopped it) and the other one my father told me himself, because the man was a friend of mine, and he did go to Africa with my father, and he was never seen again, so I do believe that one. I do believe the man was tortured as my father said, as my father knew some things that only that man and I knew so that would have been the only way he would have had that information. But that does not a criminal case make, unfortunately. My father was tossed out of that country shortly after the man “disappeared” but I have been unable to find out if the two things had anything to do with the other. My father is dead now, so I believe that he has met the Greatest Judge of them all, and will receive an appropriate sentence for his crimes in the hereafter.
In my many years of dealing with the criminal justice system due to my son’s criminal activities, and incarcerations, I don’t have a great deal of confidence that the people who deserve to be behind bars for life always, or even frequently, get what they deserve, but no government or human system is even I think adequately “just,” because of a multitude of reasons.
Our prison and legal systems are as corrupt, in my opinion, as the “crime” they attempt to stomp out. Look at the OJ case, he got a walk on the murder of his wife and her friend, but he did eventually let his arrogance put him in prison. So maybe your X will do the same thing and he will go to prison for something, if not the crimes he did commit.
I saw a show the other night on 48 hours Mystery where a crooked/stupid detective persecuted a 15 year old kid that he thought had killed a woman for over 20 years and finally did get a “conviction” due to the fact that the detective withheld evidence that would have exonerated the boy, and the boy spent 10 yrs in prison before DNA evidence (extracted from the woman’s clothes 20 years later) eventually released the man and proved him innocent. Yet, even after all the proof that the detective had withheld all this evidence (including shoe print molds, etc.) the detective still maintains the boy’s guilt. DUH????
This young man was very very fortunate that he had some lawyers and friends and family that believed in him for over 20 years and did their best as a group to get the evidence to prove him innocent. At a cost of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of privately raised money by people who were NOT RICH.
With as many people as the US has in prison, if only 1/2 of 1 percent are innocent (and I strongly suspect the number of innocent people is MUCH HIGHER) that means that there are “zillions” of innocent people in prison and some of them on death row.
If you look at the other side of the number of crimes vs the number of convictions you also see that only a small percentage of serious crimes are even prosecuted, much less convicted. And with the “Plea Bargains” that are struck with much of the list of crimes these people DO commit being dropped in exchange for no trial expense—sheesh! It will give you a permanent wave in your hair and turn it gray over night! LOL
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Friday, 12 December 2008 @ 2:29pm
muldoon says:
Another OMG moment for me. When I found a text un his phone he nearly killed me, I was suprised to be attacked when he was the one caught being unfaithfull, he was on me immediately, strangling and smashing my head on the floor whilst sat astride my chest, I actually thought this is it..Im dead. the baby came in and for the first few seconds he was oblivious to her screams, then I saw realisation in his face and he let me go..I cradled the baby and all the while he was telling me “when she goes back to sleep I am going to kill you” “Hurry up and get her to sleep I want to kill you” He done this in whispered tones whilst smiling lovingly at the baby..When i caught his eye he would bite his tongue and contort his face….I was terrified, it was the first time I had ever caught him bang to rights, where he could not spin any elaborate tale. I understand that response now, never did before…what I dont get is, how do I assess what kind of and how much threat he poses to me now that I no longer play his ball game?
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 5:02am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
Document. Please document everything from here on out.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 6:31am
muldoon says:
He has just instant message to my friend on her facebook, he threatened to kill her husband if she gets involved with this. he then immediately cancelled her permission to view his facebook which also deleted the instant message… I then rang her, and in the background was his voice, she handed him the phone and he said he was contacting the police re me harrassing him,that I was a fucking liar and sick in the head…I said swear on the babys life I am these things…he did!
My friend will not go to the police but I am now worried he will egt people to bear false witness against me..The things I say are documented at m,y doctors going back 5 years, I also swore an affadavit in october when I was granted residency fro our child. he now says he did not come to the court becaus ehe never knew it happened till today…a lie, he was served papers by the bailiff, he has forgotten that detail. He was aslo served by hand the judges verdict immediately after the case. The police have been here at least thrirty times for domestic violence…..has he forgotten this also?!
He is saying he is going to take texts I sent him when it all first kicked off…before I knew the no contact clause and when I was angry.
I now know this is classic tactic and he is setting me up…The mad bastard may even try for custody calling me a bad mother he said to my friend, she wont report cos she scared of her boyfriend getting a kicking.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 8:45am
James says:
OxDrover
I too read many book on the Scott Peterson case. And you are right that if one was to look at the family background and how dysfunctional it was one can understand how he become “his mother’s son”. His mother and step father were controlling and unfeeling people. In fact his half brother was kick out of the home for not complying to what the parent expected of him. How if a child wasn’t all they wanted that child to be that the child would just be “dismissed and forgotten” and how Scott himself must have feared that type of rejection from his own parents. Many times the parent themselves refer to Scott as “their golden boy”. In short the perfect son! Doesn’t this show us just how narcissistic his parents were? All they wanted was the “perfect life perfect home perfect family and yes of course the perfect son! But then we see how Scott killed not only his wife but their expecting child. “Their golden boy” was only that in their eyes and never a part of anyone’s reality. This also shows how conditional love is wrong dysfunctional and how much harm it does to a child’s heart and soul..
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 9:58am
James says:
Mudloon,
Please take every precaution possible to insure the safely of your child and self. Whenever physical violence become part of the picture we must up the ante and understand that everything and anything is possible. Please be careful!!
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 10:01am
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
All the w hile you thought he was just “quiet” he was out there PLOTTING, and getting his plan in order to ATTACK you. Even though you are trying to disengage, he is making plans and carrying them out. YOU ARE NOT AWAY FROM THIS MAN NOW. You are his PROPERTY and he is ANGRY, in a RAGE that you are trying to escape. He IS VERY DANGEROUS. He has already proven this.
He is in my opinion MORE DANGEROUS NOW THAN EVER BEFORE because he is PLOTTING AND PLANNING THIS IS A COLD RAGE. Before, he was in a Hot rage, just reacting, now he is PLOTTING AND PLANNING IN A COLD RAGE. Much more dangerous than ever. He will attack you on all fronts.
Sit down and make a plan of your own. You must not become just fearful and in a panic….you, too, must be cold and calculating and PROTECT YOURSELF. I was in very much the same condition a couple of years ago, and I was in such a mess mentally, physically and emotionally, that I was totally a basket case. I too made mistakes, sent letters written when I was “crazy” that were used against me, so I do know where you are.
First. He will attack you in every way, and keep in mind, he may actually WIN if you don’t protect yourself. He may actually try to take the kids away and sometimes the courts are so stupid they will go along with it because you are made to seem crazy and you are crazy—with fear and worry.
Because they have no fear, they can appear calm.
To the cops/courts/lawyers etc: YOU MUST APPEAR CALM AND COMPOSED
Secondly: Get your documents in order
THE NUMBER OF TIMES, DATES, ETC. when the cops were called on domestic violence
About your car. Photographs of the car, the date it was vandalized (even t hough you can’t prove it was him, it still looks suspicious)
Buy a small tape recorder. Keep it in your pocket at all times. If you are in contact with him, turn it on. If you are in contact with some of your friends TAPE RECORD THEM as well, like when they tell you about his threats. But in any case,, your friend can be MADE TO TESTIFY even if she doesn’t want to. Add this to your list of documentation.
Now is NOT the time for you to have a “melt down” and I know it is difficult to not melt down when you are in fear of your life….and if you are not in fear, you should be in my estimation, Muldoon. This man is VIOLENT AND VISCIOUS. He has already PROVEN THAT.
Even if you win in the courts, he may not stop there, he strikes me as one that has to be in UTTER AND COMPLETE CONTROL. You saw how he reacted when he was UNMASKED and could not deny he had cheated. He responded with VIOLENCE. My son who is a psychopath is exactly the same way and he tried to have me killed because I unmasked him. He had a very complex plot and almost pulled it off. The girl that did unmask him and his criminal activities 20 years ago, HE KILLED HER, an d is in prison now for that crime. Even in prison, he is trying to have me killed to get money from inheritence. DON’T EVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN.
Come here every second you can spare and READ and learn. Go to the link for “leaving a sociopath/psychopat” here on this blog and read. Take the suggestions for an “escape bag” that I mentioned earlier, get money together, get documents together, you need to be in action every minute getting yourself safe–SAFETY above all else. This is not a “play” it is for REAL, and real danger, and real danger requires real preparation and action.
Keep in touch with us so we can know you are safe. Muldoon, I’ve been in danger of my life, and believe me, I didn’t handle it as well as I should have at first especially, because I was so distraught and unsettled….but I did learn from this and I promise myself I will never be caught short again. I will never let my guard down as long as these people breathe, but I WILL NOT LIVE IN TERROR—but in CAUTION. I don’t want you to be terrorized, but I want to help you acknowledge that the DANGER IS REAL…he is a MAD BULL right now and one of his “cows” is trying to get away, and he cannot tolerate that. I think the man is very dangerous on both a physical and a legal aspect, and I think he will try both of them at the same time, so be CAUTIOUS! BE SMART, BE AWARE, BE WARY, and HAVE AN ESCAPE PLAN IN PLACE—
If possible, go to a women’s shelter and TALK TO THEM tell them your story (document this as well) and ask their advice. Find a domestic abuse counselor/cop that speializes in that sort of thing if there is one and talk to him/her (and document that as well) Find some professional that will listen to you,, validate you and may have some suggestions. ((((Hugs))) and my prayers are with you and your children. Oxy
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 11:28am
muldoon says:
He is at it now….insinuating whta I previously told the court and others is lies here is a part of the email he sent……
i never actually defended myself against what you said for two reasons the first being that i never had any knowledge of court proceedings so was not present to defend myself. the second reason was because i stupidly came back to you so thought all proceedings had stopped. if your concerns were so great that you felt you had go as far as ringing social services to report me and a phantom girlfriend with children then why as a mother would you allow your own children to again co-habit with such a dangerous pervert. does that say something of your parenting skills. should you really be in carge of such young children when your judge of character is a litlle wayward to say the least. so when your ready jesse james let the war begin.
Note in it he says he never knew proceedings happening then he says we were back together so thought they dropped…Starting to feel alarmed.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 1:22pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
This is TWISTING THE TRUTH. His point, from other’s points of view, may have a “grain of truth” in it. That is how they do things.
DO NOT ANSWER HIS E MAIL!!! DO NOT ANSWER!!!
Remember, too, RAT POISON IS 99% PURE CORN MEAL.
They take the truth, twist it, and add a partial lie, to change the meaning.
My own mother used this same thing, she said “YOU put this pervert in my home, there fore all this is YOUR fault.” At the time I was aware he moved in with my mother, I did not know what a true pervert he was, but the pure “truth” becomes RAT POISON with the 1% lie.
He is going to try to make himself appear such a great guy. You need to print out some of the things here on love fraud, or talk to a counselor or be able to show proof that in breaking free of the PERPERTRATOR that the domestic violence victim frequently and usually goes back time after time to the abuser. Then you can show that you followed that USUAL PATTERN and that you wanted to believe he would NEVER DO IT AGAIN. (like he promised).
You need to ARM YOURSELF with knowledge and documentation. When I wrote this article, I used the knowledge I got and documented it from a book written by an “expert.”
You are a CLASSIC VICTIM, he is a CLASSIC abuser. The situation is a CLASSIC SITUATION of on/off abuse and hope.
Some professionals get this,, some don’t, but you need to be able to document this and to articulate (state in short reasonable terms) these things to the court, the attorneys etc.
You need to show that you have been the classic beaten down VICTIM and he is the classic abuser, and that you NOW see this and recognize this and state that you KEPT HOPING HE WOULD QUIT, but that you NOW SEE that you have been the classic victim, lured back by promises of him never again hurting you. BUT THAT YOU NOW REALIZE that YOU also have been living in a FANTASY WORLD. That you NOW SEE how unhealthy this was for your children to witness the abuse, and for them to witness YOUR PART IT IN by ALLOWING it to go on, and by you taking him back time after time.
SHOW THEM YOU ARE NOW SANE, RATIONAL AND REASONABLE. It is okay for you to admit that you “acted dumb” in the past, because you didn’t see what this horrible situation would do to you and your children and you kept hoping it would get better, but you NOW SEE THAT IT WILL NEVER GET BETTER.
Hang in there Muldoon, it WILL GET BETTER. And now is the time for you to USE ALL YOUR STRENGTH, and keep on learning and learning and don’t let him push your buttons. (((hugs)))) and my prayers are for you and your children. I can hear your strenth growing already—YOU CAN DO IT!!! I KNOW YOU CAN!!!
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 1:44pm
muldoon says:
This is all because I will not allow him access without a court order, in the past its this kind of shit that set me on the back burner and had me letting him have access and eventually he ended up home, vant even remember how it happened but it was his choice, his will.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 1:59pm
Rune says:
Muldoon: Courage! And this is not “because” ANYTHING. Someone like this does NOT need any reason to cause trouble. They will take any excuse you want to give them, but if they don’t have an excuse, they will still do whatever they will do.
When my grandfather noticed when someone was giving a lame excuse, he would say, “The guy has to tie up his milk.” The point being that if it’s just an excuse, any excuse will do!
Don’t get caught in this game that leaves you blaming yourself when clearly he doesn’t need any excuse for his bad behavior.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 2:20pm
muldoon says:
He was happy to abandon the kids and any right to access, when it suited him. This is not the first time he has gone and had no access but its the first time I have stood my ground fully. I think he knows now that things have changed and I am now longer going to be compliant, I am more like the woman I was when he met me and then I wouldn’t have had as much as I have taken.
Once my daughter rang him when she had not seen him for weeks and he hung up on her and then got a friend to ring her back and say its my phone I bought it off your dad and I haven’t seen him since. A week later he was demanding access and making out he would die without the kids in his life!!! thats what he is doing now.
I see where this is heading all to clearly, what I don’t know is how to stop it without giving in. Its not I want to win, its I don’t see what good his spasmodic access does for the kids and half the time when he was here we all walked on egg shells and spoke in whispers.
I don’t know if there are typical feelings for people going through what i am but I have a sick scared feeling in the pit of my stomach and I keep replaying it all in my mind, I am so tired from lack of sleep but even when I try I am laying there for hours with my mind going ten to the dozen.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 3:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
All your feelings are NORMAL responses to what you are going through….I think all of us have gone through the same things. It is in response to the trauma of it all, the chaos of it all, the insanity of it all. It will pass. It will come and then go, and then come again–FOR A WHILE. If you continue to stand your ground, you will eventually come to peace. I know it all seems “insane” and IT IS. He is using your children to try to get even with you, to paint you as the bad mom, when in TRUTH, he is the BAD FATHER.
Yes, he hurts the kids, yes, they are confused, they are just as much in a turmoil as YOU ARE, and they don’t have as many skills to cope with it as you do. Just reassure them that you love them, and what I told you in the other blog. You might say something like:
“Dad is angry at me right now, and he is saying bad things. Anger is not an excuse to say or do bad things, but those are his choices. I have made bad decisions in the past and done things when I was angry, said things that were not nice in anger. I HAVE LEARNED BETTER NOW, and I am going to do better in the future. I lvoe you and I will be here fo ryou. No matter what your dad says or does, I will be here for you.”
That is all the DETAILS those kids need I think. No matter what outrageous thing he does or says, “He is angry and he is doing these things because he is angry. Anger is NOT an excuse to do or say bad things. I have LEARNED BETTER AND WILL ACT BETTER.” Just rinse and repeat and repeat. That way you are NOT criticizing him, you are simply pointing out his (a) behavior and (b) that it is not acceptable and (c) WHY he is behaving that way. and YOU must not “show out” in front of the kids. NOT show out! You can do it. That will reassure the kids that they have ONE sane rational parent that will take care of them.
If push comes to shove you can possibly say say “Dad is VERY angry now, and not behaving nice, so I think it is best you not see him UNTIL he is not so angry.” That way you are telling them that them seeing him depends on HIM, and his behavior, not on them or on you. You must be very firm with the children, but nurturing and loving. They may cry to see him and you can say “I know you want to see your dad, and when he calms down, then you will be able to see him.” That way you acknowledge their feelings, but show that you are protecting them, and putting the problem where it belongs, HIS BEHAVIOR. Hoppefully, he will eventually get to where he gets out of their lives as well as yours, but right now, they are probably very confused, and anxious. Because no matter what kind of a sod he is, they love him just because it is him. Also they are maybe blaming themselves for his anger, so be sure that yo make sure that they are aware he is ANGRY AT YOU, not them.
Hang on Muldoon, you’ve got a hard road, but you are making great progress already, I can hear your strength in your posts!!! ((((hugs)))))
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 4:15pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
If you are not getting at least 7 hours of sleep a day, please see your doctor and get help. Many, many adults need help getting proper sleep. Your MD will not consider you unbalanced for having this problem.
You’ve got to sleep so you can think straight and keep your composure when dealing with the authorities.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 5:15pm
James says:
Muldoon,
I know that sleep deprivation was a big problem for me when my world came crashing around me. I had to get a sleep aid from my doctor just to get a “few hours of sound sleep”…
I remember once (before being prescribed a sleep aid) sleeping for a short time and then waking up like a bat out of hell. I literally jump from my bed almost to my feet. I never understood this. I awoke like I was ready to fight but fight what (no one was there other then my children sleeping in their bedrooms) I never knew? I never had that experience before and since that one time. You need to sleep so if you have too like the other members stated it might be best to ask your doctor for a sleep aid. Lack of sleep will only add to your problems..
I often wondered how many other members experienced a kind of “sleep deprivation” themselves?
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 10:01pm
Healing Heart says:
Absolutely – I had a myriad of problems with sleep that I had never had in my life – after the breakup with the ex S. And for the first time in my life, I was prescribed sleep aids, and took them.
At first I could fall asleep easily, but every morning would wake up at 3:00 or 4:00am in a panic – utterly terrified – with nothing in particular attached…and then terribly depressed.
Later, after he started harrassing/stalking – I couldn’t fall asleep for hours, couldnt’ stay asleep, and woke up frequently throughout the night.
Not getting enough sleep does a real number on your emotional/psychological health. I got so weepy and emotional and paranoid…and felt strung out. I don’t like to take medications, and for a while I was afraid that if I was out on medication, I was putting myself in danger because he might break in and I wouldn’t hear.
But when I was more certain he wouldn’t come over (threat of Restraining Order), I started taking Ambien, and it made a world of difference.
My sleep has never been so messed up in my life as it was this past year since the breakup.
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 10:47pm
James says:
Thanks for the infor Healing Heart. Nice to know I wasn’t the only one to feel like that. And yes I remember to worrying about sleeping thru something but then again with the meds I still only would sleep for 3 to 4 hours and then wake up again. This cycle lasted for about 6 months.. Long 6 months..
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Thursday, 8 January 2009 @ 11:10pm
muldoon says:
Hi all…Did get sleep but woke up a couple of times for ne reason and this morning feel flat and still tired, almost zobie like. The gnawing twisting feeling of anxiety in my stomach id the thing that does my head in most. No matter what I am doing or who I am with, the feeling is there and always i am conscious of it to the point I cant keep track of my own thoughts
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 3:52am
Wini says:
muldoon: You really need to read Tolle’s book “A New Earth” … you are in desperate need of a breather here. It can be overwhelming to learn all of this at one time. You want to learn … but your mind is still in the shock phase that anyone on this planet can be like our EXs … it’s just too much.
You can log onto Oprah.com … go into her spiritual healing site … on there you will find Tolle’s 10 classes for the 10 chapters of his book … detailing each chapter. Oprah is keeping his videos on line for FREE because she realizes how much spiritual healing is needed in our world today.
Expect to keep falling asleep while you try to read through Tolle’s book. It’s just too much information to absorb at one time … so you read a few pages, fall asleep … read a few more pages, fall asleep. It will take you over a week to get through the book … but it is worth it.
Peace. Keep the book with you … and pick it up again in a few months and read it again. The more you grow … the more info jumps out of the pages at you. Put the book down … then pick it up again and read it all over again … the more you read it … the more you will see in the pages.
Good luck.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 4:06am
muldoon says:
cheers wini will give it a go.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 4:17am
Wini says:
Muldoon: It’s a good “pat on the back” book for us to read. Has nothing to do with our EXs … just our spiritual growth.
Enjoy the book. I suggest listening to Tolle’s tapes on Oprah site too. His voice is so soothing.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 4:31am
Elizabeth Conley says:
James,
“I often wondered how many other members experienced a kind of “sleep deprivation” themselves?”
Most if not all, I imagine.
Personally, I find that anxiety and lack of sleep make me stupid. I become so absent minded that I cannot get the my work done. I pick up something in one room that needs to be put in another, then end up wandering out of the room I was working in to the second room and getting totally off track with other activities. I reverse letters in words. I use Ps in place of Bs, 5s in place of Ss, and even reverse syllables in words and/or confuse homophones. (“worse than usual”-not “just like always”) I forget people’s names. I stammer and trip over words. I lose my way on familiar streets…etc. All of this makes me feel very ashamed, and stresses me out worse, which makes me act even dumber. If there’s an S, P or N around, they’ll rub my nose in it all ’til I become suicidal.
In short, I have to take care of myself in order to be “fit for duty”. My family and friends count on me to be at my best. So even if I am reluctant to rest and take care of myself for my own sake, I force myself to do it for theirs.
From what I’m hearing and seeing, there are several people here who have this same syndrome to one degree or another. All I can prescribe for you is rest, recreation and a bit of self-care. You really do deserve . If you can’t believe that, then simply remember that you need it in order to take care of others.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:00am
Elizabeth Conley says:
PS-
Somewhere on this site I read a post yesterday that got me to thinking.
The poster commented that their ex S/P had boasted to them that he had stressed out his new target so badly that the gal was extremely muddled in her thinking and behavior.
It that case, the S/P knew full well that his behavior was wrecking his target’s ability to think straight from moment to moment. I’m not suggesting it’s always deliberate, or even that it often is. I’m just saying that occasionally an N/P/S does set out to un-nerve us. Even if it’s not deliberate, it is often the result of their “crazy making”. We have to resist with every tool at our command.
Do what you have to do to get a good night’s rest.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 9:14am
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon, Elizabeth, Wini et al,
Deliberate Sleep deprivation has been used by armies for centuries as a torture and to “unhinge” captives.
I too have suffered “insanity” from severe sleep deprivation at several different times, and yes, I was “insane” as a result of the mixture of sleep deprivation and stress!
Yes, it does effect your ability to think, your emotions, and your physical health as well.
I have taken ambien and for some people it does help, at least initially. It does have some side effects that can be dangerous though. It can cause amnesia, and in overdose, is very very dangerous. Also, if you are in a situation where you might NEED to wake up easily you might not be able to. (like if your house was on fire!)
The question of need for sleep has to be balanced with other things as well during the crisis part of the situation. Relaxation and meditation can partly substitute for lack of sleep, but they don’t do anyting for the NEED for Rapid Eye Movement sleep (in which you dream.) If you are deprived or REM sleep, you will try to “make up for ” this when you DO get to sleep and will dream excessively and sometimes nightmares in response for this lack. A feeling of “safety” is necessary for sleep as well. Plus, you must “turn off” your thinking about the chaos.
Our internal dialog (0ur thoughts) continue uninterupted unless we focus them on something, as our dialog can’t be thinking about two things at the same time. One way to do this is as you are lying there trying to go to sleep, a techniuqe I have used successfully is to count from one to four.
As you breathe in “say” one, as you breathe out say “and” and as you breathe in again say “Two” and out, “and” and then go to four and start over again. This will direct your internal dialog to the boring numbers and keep you from thinking about (talking to yourself) what is going on in your life and help you get to sleep. It takes a bit of practice, but this does direct your thoughts away from the crisis and pain.
Melatonin, which is a natural hormone, bought over the counter, also has been found by many to be beneficial. This is the hormone our bodies make in response to darkness which readies our body for sleep.
Avoid caffine after noon, and if you eat a high carbohydrate snack before you want to go to bed, the carbohydrate load also makes you sleepy. Try to regulate your times of sleep.
If you must take a nap, it is more beneficial to take one in the morning than in the afternoon. A “sleep cycle” is about an hour and a half, which allows you to go through all the “stages” of sleep, so time a nap to get at least a full hour and a half at once if you can at all to get the most benefit from the nap.
Older people don’t sleep as deeply as younger ones, and don’t need (apparently) as much sleep as younger people. They wake up more times, don’t sleep as deeply, etc. and this is normal for the “elderly.” I find this to be true as I have aged as well.
Eating well, drinking enough liquids, avoiding an overload of caffine (from coffee, tea, and sodas etc) and just ordinary REST, are all especially important to us at this time of crisis, and many times this is neglected completely. OUr immune systems depend on sleep, rest and nutrition, so we must do our best to balance these in order to keep from getting physically sick as well, which of course will add more stress to an already stressed system.
I recommend that ALL unnecessary-to-life tasks be postponed. Let the housework go except for ESSENTIALS. Do only what is required to keep you alive; eat, sleep, rest, take care of legal details, etc. The things that CAN wait should wait.
Get physical contact with another human being—HUGS ARE ESSENTIAL. Hug your child, your friends, your dog even.
Pamper yourself, you deserve it. Long bubble baths, a good book. Anything that will make you feel good.
Exercise is essential during crisis. It will “burn off” the stress hormones and decrease your anxiety.
Take care of YOU!!!
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 10:45am
Rune says:
Ox-D: Great advice. What if you’re dealing with all that stress, and homelessness, too?
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 1:37pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Rune,
HOpefully, you (or whomever you are referring to) are not living in a cardboard box on the street, as that would make it very difficult to accomplish and add additional stress to the horrible mix. I know that happens though, or a shelter which is only a step or two above the cardboard box and is a very short temporary shelter available in most places.
Many people have to work at a job that requires concentration, have severe financial problems, etc. I know these suggestions are more easily accomplished if you are in a home of some kind than they would be if you were homeless, but you DO THE BEST YOU CAN. The relaxation therapy technique can be done as you lie in your cardboard box trying to sleep and that may be the only one you can do. The main point though, is that sometimes we use our VERY FINITE energy to focus on things that can be “let go” for long periods of time. The floor does NOT have to be swept daily, or the dishes done every night, or the cob webs knocked out of the corners. There are non essential things that can be “let go” that use our energy. The energy we have should be conserved for the ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY things, and we should be as good to ourselves as we can be.
I ended up with multiple serious infections (which were life threatening in intensity) due to my immune system being almost totally screwed from the continual and high stress levels I had maintained starting several months before my husband was killed and that went on for years afterwards, winding up with the threats on my life.
Our stress levels remaining high for weeks, months, years, is very detrimental to our physical and mental health. ANYthing you can do to decrease the stress–either physical or mental is important in maintaining the BEST (under the circumstances) health that you can, given the resources you have.
It’s well known and well proven that high stress levels increase both illness and accidents, and impede logical thinking. At the very time we need ALL of our resources, the stress (fear, grief, and all other emotions coupled with it) deprives us of our resources of mind and body.
I am still making a great effort to not stress myself out so that my reserves of energy can naturally rebuild. I am thinking more clearly now, so that helps too (though I do have some short term memory problems still) If there is something “nonessential” that I just don’t want to do, I don’t do it, AND I don’t beat myself up because it isn’t done. (doesn’t do any good to not do something non essential if you beat yourself up and stress yourself because you didn’t want to do it. LOL)
Just a change in the way I look at priorities has made a big change in how I feel about things so that additional, unnecessary stress is not added to my “plate.”
About three years is necessary to overcome the effects of a “big bad stress” attack (or a series of continual smaller ones) and during that three years I know that I need to keep CHANGES of all kinds at a minimum. Changes (even good ones) add “stress” to your life, so the research tells me that even a good stress like my son C moving home will “stress” me. Even though I am VERY happy he is here, I can see some changes in my level of toleration for various things, and am trying to keep myself aware of this so that I can take action to decrease other stresses to compensate.
I noticed the noise level in my house had risen, and I am sensitive to noise, it irritates me more than “normal” and has since my husband’s death. I have difficulty “tuning it out” that I didn’t have before. There are more other people here lately than is usual too, and frankly they had more or less over stayed their welcome (they were friends of my son’s) so last night we had a talk about this and the problem is solved (apparently they had also overstayed his welcome as well LOL) so we will cut down their visits and the length of their visits. Easy solution to that one. Look at things in your life that are making you feel stressed—find out what they are, then work on eliminating that stress. I have about two more years to go on living a LOW STRESS life (as much as I can make it that way) before the total effects of stress should be fairly well over with. I can already see that my “reserves” of strength and sanity, are increasing, and that I am able to handle “set backs” in a much better, quicker, and less intense way than when I was really stressed out and anxious.
I talked to my psychiatrist about it yesterday, about how quiet I was keeping my enviornment, how I was pulling inward, working on myself, etc. and seeking serenity and peace, focusing on my healing, and my relationships with those that are closest to me, and she validated that I was “on the right track” that I was “tired” from the stress of the past nearly five years now and needed a “rest”—-from stressful things. Learning to set boundaries for myself and others has helped tremendously, because setting them was very stressful at first, but now that I have a bit of practice, it isn’t as stressful at all, and the NET result is less stress.
I don’t know if any of this long diatribe makes any sense to anyone but me, but that’s the “plan” I am working on, to keep stress low. To use my resources well for my own benefit and not worry about things I can’t control.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 2:13pm
muldoon says:
Just to let you know …still alive and kicking…quiet day again…not a word..but this time I wont imagine its ll over like last time.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 5:08pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Ox Drover,
“and during that three years I know that I need to keep CHANGES of all kinds at a minimum. Changes (even good ones) add “stress” to your life,”
“how quiet I was keeping my environment, how I was pulling inward, working on myself, etc. and seeking serenity and peace, focusing on my healing, and my relationships with those that are closest to me, ”
These are tactics I use too.
I am insanely busy taking care of my family and homeschooling my children. Given how much is going on, I refuse to let anyone or anything rock the boat unnecessarily. The prime hours for home schooling are Mon-Fri 8-11 AM and 12-1 PM. No one messes with that time. I have an elderly relative who sometimes schedules her doctors visits during those hours. When she does, I politely tell her I won’t drive her unless she reschedules.
I take new relationships very cautiously. I used to reach out to anyone and everyone right away, not I take new relationships very, very, slowly. I don’t book as many social engagements either. If there are two social engagements only an hour or so apart, I politely excuse myself from one of them. I used to give people rides to wherever I was going, every time. Now I take off once in a while with an empty car, and I’m learning not to feel guilty about that.
My husband takes a firm hand with discipline matters, and gives me time away when I need it. This afternoon my 12 YO kicked her brother in the head, and he bit her on the big toe (don’t ask), while we were driving in traffic. I dropped them off at home and went out for a recreational shopping trip to the local thrift store – ALONE! At supper this evening my husband warned them that he would handcuff them together for 24 hours if they quarreled again. I don’t imagine social services would understand a punishment of that sort, but I heartily approve. Besides, their eyes got pretty wide. Dad’s a retired Marine Officer with a gift for thinking out of the box to solve discipline problems. THEY think he’d do it, and that’s all that matters.
No matter how busy things get, there are ways to leverage a sense of order and calm for ourselves.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:40pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
“but this time I wont imagine its all over like last time.”
Good. Enjoy it while it lasts!
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 6:46pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Muldoon,
If you can bore your X to tears, you might get lucky. He might latch on to a new target. (I know, this sounds evil. It probably is.) Any way, if he’s busy crazy-making with someone else, it will take the heat off.
Strive for boring. It sometimes works.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:18pm
OxDrover says:
Elizabeth,
A friend of mine (my age) had a brother and when they would fight her father would make them hold a board between them and press their noses into it so that their eyes were about 3 inches apart for various periods of time. LOL
I think your husband’s idea was great!!! especially if they were teenagers! My how they would hate that! LOL I remember when miine were about 6 & 8, I realized that the younger one who masquaraded as “peter perfect” was inciting the problems and his older (ADHD) brother would hit him and get in trouble. So I decided that I wasn’t going to referee any more and told them that if they got into afight they would both be punished. For six months I thought I would go crazy and one day I heard one of them say, “If you do that again, I am going to hit you and then we will BOTH get into trouble.” ROTFLMAO Oh, I enjoyed those days though! I miss those little kids that kept me busy and pulling my hair out too!
But that is why God gives children to young women, because you have the energy to cope with it! I’m also glad that you have a willing and good partner as well. I did some home schooling back in the days when it was illegal to do so, with my ADHD son (the non-P) and I know how busy that can keep you too. Parenting and caregiving of any kind deserve a break once in a while, I am glad you are taking one.
I’m fortunate that I am retired and dont have to work off the farm, and can limit totally the interactions I want to what I want. Those days that I like my jackasses better than most people I limit my socialization to the jackasses. LOL
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:23pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Ox Drover,
“So I decided that I wasn’t going to referee any more…”
Smart lady.
My kids were provoking each other in the doctor’s examining room the other day. He hadn’t arrived yet, and experience had taught me we’d be waiting at least 10 minutes. My bladder was full and I was getting cranky. I left to go to the lady’s room. As I walked out I told them “I’m leaving now. Go ahead, work it out. I’ll keep the survivor.” Sure enough, they were both alive, well and in harmony when I returned. My two will argue for the fun of it, and to get me involved in their monkey-shines. Lately I’ve recused myself.
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 7:34pm
OxDrover says:
Good for you! Unless there was something VERY dangerous or serious I tried to let them settle their own squabbles. I really love kids the ages of yours, they are my favorite ages! Lots of fun, interesting and learning so much! Those years were some of the best I had with my kiddos. Son C and I have been reviewing some of the memories of those years and the things we did together as a family! Funny the odd things that they remember from those years! Hard to believe my baby is 39!!! Where did the years go?!
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Friday, 9 January 2009 @ 11:18pm
Rune says:
Ox-D: Cutting back on the non-essentials — good advice. So much of what people believe is essential is just busywork and distraction. And the taking care of others, without discrimination — that’s a sure path into the clutches of the next S/P, not to mention personal exhaustion along the way.
I believe that as a result of sociopathic behavior on a national level, we’re seeing a tsunami wave of people who are reeling — facing joblessness, homelessness. And everything you mention — mental/emotional stability, immune system, mental clarity for problem-solving in extreme circumstances — all those are and will be present issues for people who don’t even know the concept of “sociopath.”
And the situations are shaping up to be so dire that there aren’t enough soup kitchens and dormitories to handle these people. Not that those are really good solutions, either.
Kathleen Hawk posted a comment that pointed in this direction. We tend to focus on our own personal relationship betrayals, but I think it’s worth noting that those up-close-and-personal S/Ps are just smaller examples of those who have plundered society.
Thanks again for the thoughtful response.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 3:38am
Healing Heart says:
It does seem that there are more and more sociopaths out there doing damage on all scales, small and large. I wonder if the sociopaths have multiplied (because they procreate so thoughtlessley), or, with ever increasing technology and communication, there are just more venues for them to wreak havoc with their selfishness and lack of conscience.
I think it will be a big turning point for the world when people begin to recognize that there is a sick breed of people amongst us, and that we MUST learn to identify and manage them. At this stage of civilization, the vast majority of them go unnoticed, and even rewarded, until something huge happens.
I hope the recession, which is driven in small or large part, by greed…will open people’s eyes. And that survivors will more and more identify themselves as such as will educate themselves and others.
I think, sadly about my ex S and the damage he has reaped, and the damage he stands to reap. There are a lot of women out there right now, who are doing okay – not great, but okay…and he’s going to come into their lives and devastate them. I wish I knew he they were so I could call them and try to help them – though it probably would not keep them away, it might help get them out sooner.
He’s out there – and he’s evil, and he’s incredibly charming and has always been a magnet for women (especially women like us). I shudder when I think of all the damage he is doing RIGHT NOW…and all the damage he is going to do, and all the people he is going to hurt, in the coming months, years, decades. SHUDDER
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 8:33am
muldoon says:
Hello….checking in and educating myslf whilst here…It seems that the evil one is now telling people how glad he is to be free from me, that I am scorned and that I was controlling, abusive, tyranical…all the things he himself is…What I want…no have, to know is does he believe this in all sincerity/ Or does he know full well and is consciously lying…In any event, he now has to keep that charade up so its probabl;y going to be peacefull for a time.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 9:58am
Tood says:
Muldoon,
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what he thinks or believes about his own lies. But I’ve been exactly where you are, and I know how important it is during that period to try to understand their crazy behavior and their crazier excuses.
Mine also went through a brief period of calling me a “bitter, scorned woman.” And of course I was insane and he was as pure and innocent as the driven snow.
I think they know they are lying when they first begin the lie. But with enough repetitions, I think they actually come to believe their own false universes. Because, after all, in their own minds, they are GOD and they CREATE REALITY. Words have no meaning beyond what THEY give them. So after a time, they actually believe that they can shape reality just by speaking the right lie.
But as you will come to know as time passes, what is in his sick, disordered head is of no consequence to you. Because you are out of his false, crazy reality and living in a new, real, true universe of your own. Keep up the good work.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 10:33am
muldoon says:
Todd, i am not trying to understand the no mark for what or why you think, I gave up trying to understand because I just cant think how he does, I cant switch off my empathy/conscience so will never get it..
The reason being I live in a small coastal town where everybody knows everybody..he is now painting me rotten, saying i was a nymphomaniac, etc…The children have to grow up around here, talk travels fast..the kids will have the piss taken out of them and there are people here who will stop their kids associating with them because they will not want to be around a drug taking hooker…I am wondering if it is worth pointing out to him that the consequences of his bullshit on the kids could do untold damage, I was hoping he may step back because its me he wants to hurt not the kids.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:37am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear Muldoon,
“In any event, he now has to keep that charade up so its probabl;y going to be peacefull for a time.”
Oh yeah! There is nothing more fortuitous than being shunned by an N/P/S. Later, when the N/P/S acts out again for attention, he looks really dumb. With any luck you can get him to shun you indefinately.
It actually helps you if he believes his own lies. See if you can get visitation/custody exchanges set up in such a way that he interfaces with someone other than you to pick up and drop off the kids. With your history, this should be received by the court as a reasonable request. The X will look silly if he objects, so he’ll most likely agree. Deprived of the ability to crazy-make during custody exchanges, he may get bored and drift away.
I’ve got a strong feeling that your best chance for a safe future is to bore your X to tears.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:58am
muldoon says:
Even if I tell people he is a sociopath, that will also effect my kids who will grow up with that stigma to boot.
My solicitor is going to ask the judge to assess his risk and for what I am saying..like oyu say here though they are master bullshitters..any articles on here I can copy out that will help me make the judge understand?
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 12:01pm
muldoon says:
Elizabeth….the thing I have been reluctant to tell anyone other than the solicitor and a friend is it has come to light from the kids he has been viewing porn in the presence of our five yr old, she says dady always smacks his front botom when he is on the p.c…the elder child has also caught him.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 12:04pm
Tood says:
Again, speaking from my own experience…you cannot play his game and win. If he’s an S/P, he’s a very convincing liar. It’s what they do, who they are. You can’t let yourself be concerned with what he is telling other people. There will be a certain number of people who believe his lies, and there will be nothing you can do about it.
Just ignore it all as best you can and get on with your new life. If you have a job, concentrate on doing it well. Put your attention on your children and their healing. Try to help them be strong. In time, most people (and remember, MOST people are not disordered)…MOST people will eventually see through the S/P’s lies.
In the meantime, work on yourself, your healing, your children’s healing.
All I can tell you is this: five years ago, my ex had a large group of friends/acquaintances who believed his every word (I call them his groupies). I was personna non grata with everyone in our circle. Today, he is down to TWO people who still believe him–and people come up to me on the street and apologize for ever believing him in the first place.
It wll pass. His smear campaign will pass.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 12:43pm
muldoon says:
Thats reassuring. Tood
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 12:50pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
The advice you have been given above is all GREAT advice. He will do the SMEAR CAMPAIGN and a number of people will believe him, BUT what those people believe is not worth your time, thought or effort….THEY DO NOT MATTER. Yes, as long as he is getting ATTENTION and “Pity” from these folks he will not be so focused on you. They NEED ATTENTION and so they can get it elsewhere. He is more dangerous to you when he is not getting attention from others.
Don’t worry about counteracting his lies (and yes, I think he wille ven start to believe his own lies after a while) just APPEAR CALM in front of these people if you encoutner them and say, something along the lines of “I know John is very angry at me right now and saying things that are not true, but I’d rather not discuss our personal problems with everyone in the world.” That way you are TAKING THE HIGH ROAD and NOT giving those folks ammunition to go back tohim and say “You know what Muldoon said?” and piss him off more, and draw his attention to you again.
I agree, he does NOT want to see the kids except to use them as abuse to you, and if HE CANNOT SEE YOU WHEN THE KIDS ARE DROPPED OFF OR PICKED UP then he will NOT get what HE wants, which is contact with you, so chances are that he will drift away after a while if his tactics are not working and getting a “rise” out of you.
He may tell them some AWFUL stuff, and you again, I think, need to be CALM with the kids and just repeat “Daddy is very angry at me right now, and because he is angry he is saying things that are not true. I know that this confuses you, but he wille ventually get over it. I am not going to behave badly because I am angry at him.” DO NOT criticize him to them, but kep RECORDS of the things they tell you about his mastrabating in front of the PC in their presence. TAPE RECORD THOSE THINGS if possible but don’t let the kids know you are doing it. Especially the 5 yr old. Sheesh,, he is a real piece of work for sure!!!
Hang on Muldoon, you are DOING GREAT and you still have a long way to go, but you are getting there, I can hear it in your posts!!! I am so proud of you and proud FOR you as well. Getting away from this horrible man is going to open the way for you and your kids to have a GOOD LIFE. ((((hugs)))) and my prayers are with you daily for your safety and healing!
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 2:24pm
Rune says:
Muldoon: Liane Leedom, M.D., has a special interest in the risks to children of sociopathic parents. Educating judges and lawyers about these risks is a real challenge. Given what the father is doing, watching porn etc. in front of the children, this may be called “child abuse,” depending on the laws where you are.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 2:25pm
Rune says:
Muldoon: Liane’s blog, “A sociopath will always leave you out in the cold,” is about an apparently sociopathic parent. You may find some useful references in those comments as well.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 2:27pm
OxDrover says:
Before I wrote the above article, I had always at least with my animals been one to take a “risk of violence” assessment of each animal in my herd because simply put, ANY large animal can hurt or kill you accidently and I did NOT INTEND to have any that WANTED to hurt you just out of malice. Since this also tends to be genetic in animals, I didn’t even want the offspring in my herd of animals that were tending toward violence or malice. So I insituted what we jokingly refer to the “Bigger AND meaner” rule. If an animal was bigger AND meaner than I was, it WENT! If it was smaller than I was and was meaner, I could handle it, or if it was bigger and not as “mean” I could handle it and not have INCREASED risk of injury from unpredictability or malice. I have not been seriously injured by an animal on this place since I put that into effect. One chance and one chance only, any aggression (unless it was out of panic or protecting a baby) was a death sentence, the second aggression under any circumstances was a death sentence.
A couple of days ago when I was getting my few head of pet cows up and their calves (who are not pets and haven’t been trained to lead or handled since I haven’t had time to break the to lead etc) I was going to butcher a young bull about a year old and as we were driving the entire 9 yead into the corral to separate him out, one of my pets (who because she was bottle raised when her mother broke her leg) is “dysfunctional” and has NO fear or even respect for a human, decided she didn’t want to go into the corral and turned and headed DIRECTLY for me, intending to run right over me. A cow that had not been raised on a bottle by a human would have RESPECT and would have made every effort to NOT run directly over me, but as I stood there preparing to be hit by her, making direct eye contact, and I realized she was NOT going to turn, I was going to get hit head on, and probably hurt severely, in the last instant of time, my son’s hat came flying and struck her in the eye and turned her away from me. I stood there, having the “shot at and missed” feeling of being grateful not to be on a medical helicopter for the state medical school, and immediately changed my mind about which animal I was going to butcher. The cow went to the top of the list immediately.
Not that she was “meaner” than I am, but she decidedly is dangerous to life and limb because she is NOT affaid of me at all and has no “flight zone” from humans.
Assessing risks of violence is an IMPORTANT thing for us, because if we are WRONG because we think they are not a risk, and they ARE a risk, we are “on the helicopter” or on our way to the funeral home as the “guest of honor.” We can’t afford to be wrong—even one time. Because one time may be the time we are mangled or killed.
I’ve known since she was less than a year old that this cow was a “dysfunctional” cow because she was raised on a bottle, away from other cattle and did not BOND to the herd and the other cattle, or they to her. She doesn’t know she is a cow. She doesn’t even like the other cattle, so has no inclination to “stay with the herd” as the others do, and to move in a group, making every effort to stay with them. She is liable to strike out on her own away from the rest of the herd. She has no “fear” or “respect” of me as the others do, though they are “gentle” if I say “boo” and wave my hands they will move AWAY from me—not her, she is not intimidated at all by me because she isn’t “normal” and doesn’t have normal herding instincts, they have been “trained” out of her.
I’ve known she wasn’t “normal” since she was first put back into the herd, seen that she wasn’t bonded to the herd, had no desire to stay with them, and every time we would drive the herd up she would take off the other way away from them. But, because I “liked” this cow and had raised her on a bottle in the summertime when she was a baby, I hated to kill her or get rid of her, I just tolerated her being a pain in the butt when we drove cattle—I IGNORED THE RED FLAGS of her dysfunction and I shouldn’t have. I knew better, but I rationalized it. Yesterday I was lucky and fortunate that my son had the presence of mind under a tight situation to save my old bones from a sure fire big time injury or worse.
I can’t ignore the red flags any more. Maybe she would never try that again, but chances are, she will and sooner or later someone will get hurt. I’m not willing to risk myself or my sons or anyone else with an animal that is very likely going to repeat a dangerous behavior…maybe next time my son might not be wearing a hat, or be too far away to throw it, or might be looking the other way. NOT WORTH THE RISK. Cattle are very much like psychopaths in that whatever they have done in the past they will REPEAT in the future. Maybe not EVERY time, but usually when you least need it to happen (Murphy was an optimist!) It is BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. So if we are going to err, it should be on the side of thinking that they are more dangerous than they actually are, rathr than thinking “Oh, well, he was dangerous in the past, but he’s calmed down now.” Then find out we were wrong!
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 3:50pm
OxDrover says:
Muldoon,
If you can get a copy of Dr. Meloy’s book that would be a great one to give to the attorney and/or the judge.
THE BEST ASSESSMENT OF FUTURE BEHAVIOR IS PAST BEHAVIOR.
I wouldn’t even use the word “sociopath” or “psychopath” just say HE IS VIOLENT. Any dumbo can understand that! You have proof that he is violent (you’ve called the police on multiple tims) If they say “You weren’t very afraid of him because you keep going back?” Then you must stand up and say, “Yes I AM afraid of him. In the PAST I thought because he apologized that he would STOP being violent, but I can see now that HE WILL NEVER STOP BEING VIOLENT.”
ADMIT to the attorneys or the police that “I was a fool, I thought he would quit it, he said he would quit it and I loved him and I was a fool, but I AM NOT A FOOL ANY MORE.”
We were all fools one or more times, we all thought the Ps were really sorry, we hoped they were sorry, etc. but WE ARE NOT FOOLS ANY MORE. WE KNOW THE TRUTH NOW.
Because you did take him back time after time, they are going to try to use this against you in court to show that you are not really afraid of him, but by admitting that you kept taking him back because you had HOPE he would get better, but you SEE NOW that you were wrong, shows that YOU accept your part in it by allowing it, by going back to him, but that you HAVE YOUR SMARTS ON NOW. NOW is what really matters anyway.
If they get you on the stand or try to use anything you have done or said (your old e mails or anything) admit freely that you did those things, but that NOW YOU SEE WHY YOU DID THEM, YOU WERE UNDER STRESS. But now you are seeing the light, NOW you know that he is violent and will NOT change. NOW YOU ARE CALM AND REASONABLE.
I did and said some unreasonable things when I was trying to convince my mother the Ps were out to kill us, she did not believe me. She thought I was the CRAZY one, and I was crazy, but they WERE the psychopaths and they were out to kill us….so my own behavior was turned back against me. It happens, but that’s okay. I didn’t have love fraud at the time, and YOU DO–you have a whole army of people here to be with you through this!! A WHOLE ARMY of survivors!!! How wonderful is that!!!! (((hugs)))))
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 3:58pm
Indigoblue says:
OxD
I think most of the time the person under the influance of the N/S/P cannot make that distinction! I know I did not ! Only after discovery , was I able to see how bad things where and how much worse they could get if things stayed the same! The Repeat Cycle!
One of the VALUES in this information about them is the recuring patern! It helps in not making excuses for them ! It helps you and me FACE FACT! LOVE JJ
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:06pm
OxDrover says:
Yes, Indi, when you are “in the fog” you can’t see the danger or you rationalize it away. I did that in the past, I have done it with the cow, but next week, (my boys are gone for the weekend) it is “off with her head” and no more risk from this “emotionally dysfunctional” COW! LOL
YUMMMMM! Tenderloin on the grill!!! Ya’lll come to my house!
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 4:18pm
henry says:
Oxy – You made dog food out of a dead horse – your going to OFF the cow when the boy’s are gone – ever see the movie fried green tomatos? It’s in the Sauce!!!! Maybe we should all go to Oxy’s and invite our X’s and have a Bar-B-Que
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 7:48pm
muldoon says:
An Acquaintance saw the evil one earlier,she hardly knows him other than via me and only to say hello to, I know her from the school gates, she yold me the evil one spoke to her a couple of days before, he had three teenage girls with him about 18 – 20 yrs old, rough as sin, typical chavs…trailer trash if you arent familiar with chav..he told her I was evil, same old same old ..but he told her the girls were hoping to bump in to me and he was going to watch them beat the hell out of me. I asked where she had seen them and the place and time was a place I would normally have been but I was at the solicitors that days..fate?
It was a shock to her because previously she only has ever said hello to him and him to her.
She wont go to police, she told me and asked it didnt egt out that she told me.
The worst part of this I felt a pang of something twist in me when she said he was with the girls…and not from fear of the assault, like a jealousy…I also feel tonight I would like to see the nice man I thought he was one more time..I know, just being honest..i wont act on my longing, but taht doesnt stop the feeling. I have like a heartache for him now.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 8:03pm
henry says:
muldoon – your above post should make you feel elated that he is out of your life!!!! He want’s too watch 3 bitch’s beat you up and you have pang’s of jealousy? Re think this muldoon. All the same I am sorry for your pain. and btw I live in a trailor..
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 8:10pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
Keep a note about date and time your friend saw the EX and what he told her, even though she might not want to come to court, she can be MADE TO.
GET YOU A TAPE RECORDER, a small digital one and keep it in your pocket ALL THE TIME. that way if he comes around, you get a call, or bump into anyone, and they tell you anything. YOU CAN RECORD WHAT THEY SAY. You really NEED TO GET DOCUMENTATION on all this crap. While I understand people not wanting to “get involved” in some cases they MUST GET INVOLVED and can be compelled to do so. This is your life and your bones we are talking about woman! Vary your schedule too, don’t be WHERE he thinks you will be at any given time, and keep someone with you, a police whistle and a CAN OF OVEN SPRAY as well. Don’t let them catch you off guard! What a jerk. I am so glad you are getting this guy out of your life!!!! ((((hugs))))
I am so sorry that you are going through all this drama and terror! It is so UNnecessary. Yet, in a way, him acting like this MAKES YOU KNOW WHAT A DANGEROUS GUY HE IS, and that you HAVE TO get away. No looking back. I know that you feel you would like to see the FANTASY man once again, but darling, he is DEAD.
Henry, there is a difference between a “trailer” and a “mobile home”—one is a home and the other one is a CRASH PAD! Big difference. Nice people live in mobile homes, and PSYCHOPOATHS and other TRASH live in “Trailers” LOL
Even “poor white trash” can have lots of money!! LOL My son says I am not a RED NECK, but that we are “HILL BILLIES” cause Red Necks are “trash” and “hill billies” are not. I don’t get his drift, but that’s what he says! LOL In any case, a working stiff has a RED NECK from working out in the sun, and trash usually are pale from being out all night and sleeping all day! LOL I have a “red necK” from working so I think that qualifies me as a Red Neck—we argue about it all the time! LOL I AM “bi-linguial” though, I can speak and write English and I can speak “red neck” as well. Complete with the “ya’ll come back now” and “bless her heart!” LOL ROTFLMAO And, I swing a MEAN SKILLET!
Nah, I’m not going to kill the cow til the boys get back, with both of them here I can SUPERVISE and don’t have to skin the darned thing or do the gutting. I am “management” not labor now that I have TWO men taking orders! LOL Next week the renters are sending their hired hand to help fix fences. Gosh if I was only 30 years younger I’d be all over him. CUTE guy, but he’s 30 and an honest to gosh cowboy (his grandfather is a close friend of mine) While he was here today he trimmed the donkeys feet. He doesn’t “do” donkeys or mules just horses (smart man) but he did it for me for a favor and Fat and Hairy were sooooo good, he said they were better than 99% of the horses he has done! I told him they would be! THEY KNOW THE RULE!!!! This was only the second time they had been trimmed and they acted like old hands at it.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 8:57pm
muldoon says:
Henry…I am not on about people in general that live in Trailers..I am on about the chavs we have here and the only way I can explain chav to you is to use a phrase that in America means this..
I know he is dead if ever he existed at all….perhaps I am meant to feel down somewhat as the end of an era looms and I face the prospect of being a single mother.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 9:20pm
henry says:
Muldoon it’s Ok I know what you meant and I should not have said anything as I also use the term trailor trash as i have plenty of it around me. I don’t know too much about your story but give yourself some time and follow Oxy’s advice. Your aquiantance friend sounds to me like you need to go NC with her also. Yearning for that man that never was, oh how I can relate too that and I am so glad I am past that. I bet you will be a wonderful single parent – there is much good awaiting you once you get past this terrible pain – dig in and live the life you want to live. And sorry about my tacky comment.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 9:57pm
OxDrover says:
Henry, BOINK!!! for the tacky comment, Hugs for the apology (((Henry)))) Love Oxy
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:05pm
henry says:
oxy thanx for the boink and the hug, it was just my insecurity showing.
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:08pm
OxDrover says:
Henry, if M won the lotto and bought a mansion, it would still be a “crash pad” and he would still be “trailer trash”—your house would be a HOME if you lived in a card board box on a street corner. When I lived in the RV trailer last year it was my HOME even though it was only 33 ft long and 11 ft wide at the slide out. I’ve thought about that and I think that is why it took me another six months to move back into the house after I got back to the farm.
Logically, it doesn’t make sense to live in a 33 ft trailer parked next to a 4 bedroom house when you have a choice, but I felt safe iin my trailer HOME. Now I feel safe in the house (my HOME) again but I won’t sell the trailer as long as my son lives….it is parked there in case I need it, ready to GO if I need to.
I did began to wonder though if I would EVER feel safe in the house again. I read somewhere that it is called “sanctuary trauma” and that our sanctuary is traumatized and we feel we have no safety in our sanctuary. I’m not sure my son will ever be able to move back into his house again. He will be starting therapy for the PTSD with the same therapist I used and I hope it can make him feel safe again. His hypervigilence is decreasing since he has been home, and he’s working very hard on it and his healing.
He doesn’t exhibit that “long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs” anxiety and hyperness that he did. LOL
Goo’nite you guys! Love and have a good nite! Oxy
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Saturday, 10 January 2009 @ 11:50pm
henry says:
’sanctuary trauma’ yes, just one more trauma I have overcame.
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 12:26am
muldoon says:
Have passed him today….as if he never seen me before….
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 11:41am
OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
Another one of his “ploys” to suck you in and make you want to interact with him….pretend he doesn’t know you. Don’t fall for it. Just Pretend you dont’ know him either and keep on moving. LOL They are so predictable, and also changable too, they will try one thing one minute and then something else the next, so stay on your guard, sweetie! Don’t let him catch you off guard or alone and hurt you.
Keep on reading here and learning about psychopaths, though each varies a bit from the others and osme are more dangerous physicalloy than others, they all play by the same “Playbook” and few if any are original.
I am keeping oyu in my prayers and thoughts, Muldoon, you are doing so well, and I am so glad for you that you and your kiddies are getting away from this man. I know it will be a hard difficult road to be a single parent to children who have been exposed to the likes of him from birth, but you can do it!!! I know you can!!! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 2:16pm
alohatraveler says:
Muldoon,
I love the advice Elizabeth gave you about boring him to death. PERFECT.
It can be so painful when they spin bizarre stories about us. Anyone that believes their stories is being played like a puppet. Bad Man once sent me an email that said, “MY FRIENDS want to know how many restraining orders your exboyfriends have on YOU!” If they said that, I can only imagine what he said to them to get them to say that. The truth is, he didn’t have any real friends.. just co-workers that were trapped on the boat with him for a few hours.
There were a few people that thought he was okay but he couldn’t hide that he was a nut job for too long. The last woman he claimed was his friend eventually told him, “You need help. Don’t contact me again.”
Anyway.. there are some articles here but I can’t remember which ones. Ask Donna. She might know better which ones would help a judge to understand. I would refrain from telling long stories in court. I would just say, “Here judge.. this is what I think I am dealing with.” then hand over an article with a few highlighted parts. Remain completely calm in court and don’t get hysterical. I know it’s easy for me to say because I didn’t have to go to court against the bad man… but remember your ex is going to try to paint you as unstable so you want to be the pilar of stability. Remember when OZ was controlling everything and Dorthy was afraid of OZ and then wasn’t it TOTO that pulled the curtain back and OZ got all flustered and looked like an idiot. That’s what you want to happen. Don’t be afraid… he’s gig will eventually come down around him.
Good luck Muldoon.
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 5:11pm
Matt says:
alohatraveler:
You’re right about not telling long stories in court. Be it criminal or civil matters “anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law” is the code to operate by. Or put another way, you can and will be hanged by your own words.
I know Muldoon is based in GB. While I can’t speak to how courts there operate, I have a pretty good suspicion that the judge involved in her case probably won’t even accept an article saying “this is what I’ve been dealing with.” The most likely scenario is that the court is going to (a) demand specifics from her and (b) order psychiatric examinations of both him and her, if custody is an issue, and him, if criminal charges are brought against him. The problem, as anybody who has dealt with an S knows, is they are so damned good at conning the legal and psychiatric systems.
You are absolutely correct in your advice that she has to remain completely calm and not get hysterical and their objective is to paint her as unstable. My advice in this instance is for Muldoon to view this as giving a performance–strip all the emotion out of it, and to quote Sargent Joe Friday on the old “Dragnet” TV show, give “Just the facts, ma’am, just the facts.”
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 5:38pm
Wini says:
Matt: I practice for a year or so … having my fiance or friend/family verbally insult me or talk down to me, or ask me a question and then cut me off when I tried to give my answer.
I was conditioning myself to take anything as it came at me so I wouldn’t come unglued or cry (out of shock) in the kangaroo courts at work or when the attorneys deposed me. I don’t know what would have happened during the deposition, but I would have been fired if I cried at work … my bosses wanted to claim that I was unstable and always cried at work. Anyway, practicing being insulted or talked down to toughened (or conditioned) me up so I wouldn’t come unglued because I knew they were doing everything to make me come unglued or loose my cool. I was able to keep my composure … especially when someone cuts your answer off and talks over you … like you are not even in the conversation. Even when a personnel officer said to me in a kangaroo meeting “Is this why you started all this Wini, because your mother is DEAD!”. The only thing that came in my mind when that was said to me was my parents voices saying “Wini, they weren’t lucky enough to have parents like us”.
Nice folks I worked with.
This is also what your tax dollars go to. Millions of tax dollars were wasted trying to get 7 of us who knew our bosses and their cronies were anti-social. If they could waste millions on us, guess how many more millions are wasted in the other 49 states?
Peace.
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 7:13pm
Matt says:
Wini:
Your “boot camp” is actually not a bad form of conditioning. Any litigaor will tell you that as awful as depositions are, the whole point is to get a witness conditioned. And when you are on the receiving end, well…
As a lawyer who has been on both sides of the rail — both as an attorney and as someone who has been sued (not malpractice, but where I was personally sued when I foolishly guaranteed loans for a conman brother) I agree that there’s a lot that I don’t like about our so-called system of justice. On the other hand, having been asked to consult for countries which are developing justice systems after having thrown off dictatorships/totalitarian systems of government, there is a lot to be said for our system. The words “innocent until proven guilty”; and “everyone is entitled to their day in court” actually do mean something in our country. Or, as I often say, our founding fathers didn’t put those words in our Constitution because they sounded nice.
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Sunday, 11 January 2009 @ 7:59pm
Wini says:
Matt: My bosses played so many games with the seven of us that filed suits against them. 5 of the 7 were illegally fired or not allowed to come back into work. One co-worker was illegally fired for collapsing on the floor in tears over all the abuse she took for years from these animals … another was illegally fired for slapping his hand on the conference table while he was explaining he did not do what they accused him of … a defense reaction to their obscene set ups against this person. Well, needless to say, his slamming his hand down on the conference table was considered threatening and he was fired within minutes of doing so. My first kangaroo hearing … the monitor (another slime ball) kept looking at his watch and saying to me “look how long we are giving you Wini”. Of course, I had no clue what so ever what he was referring to. This went on all morning until late in the afternoon. They finally broke the hearing up for another day. During that day, I must have heard this monitor say while looking at his watch “look how long we are giving you Wini, no one has ever been given this much time”.
Later that evening while I was home it dawned on me what he meant by telling me and looking at his watch “look how long we are giving you Wini” was that most people would insult them or raise their voice towards them by telling them off for the disgusting way they were being treated … so they usually get people to react … then of course, get them fired on insubordination for reacting.
These bosses and their cronies, the hearing officers, personnel officers and affirmative action officers were a well oiled, vicious machine … who got their way every time with people they wanted out of the way. You would think they paid our salaries? Sick. Sick. Sick.
Peace.
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Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 2:31am
Healing Heart says:
It’s very frustrating that these guys can be in positions in power. When we all become more aware and evolved as a community, we will recognize who these people are, and will not promote/appoint/elect them. I believe that day is not so far off. We are part of an awakening – personally and globally
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Monday, 12 January 2009 @ 9:25am