Risk Assessment for Violence, Playing the Odds
PDF By Joyce Alexander, RNP (Retired)
I recently bought a book, Violence Risk and Threat Assessment: A Practical Guide for Mental Health and Criminal Justice Professionals, by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. I actually bought it to give some “credence” to the statistics I put into my letter to the parole board protesting the release on parole of the Trojan Horse-Psychopath that attacked our family,
Of course this book is directed, as the title says, to professionals, and to assess risk of violence. But since we are dealing with psychopaths, it is, I think, a good idea for us to be able also to look at the assessment for possible violence in our own psychopaths when we thwart their desires, or kick them to the curb. We need to answer the questions, “Is my psychopath likely to respond with violence? If so, how?”
Most violent individuals are not violent all the time. In the introduction, the author illustrates that “just because an abnormality (in behavior) … only shows on occasion, does not mean it has gone away.” (My emphasis.)
A “false negative” is when you decide that your individual will not be violent, and you are wrong. You may pay for this decision with your life. A “false positive” is when you think your individual will be prone to violence, and they are not. Being prepared for violence, even if your individual psychopath does not turn out to be physically violent is, of course, the safest way to play it. If you are going to err, erring on the side of caution is the best course. False positives are less damaging to us than false negatives.
There are also different kinds of “violence.” Not all violence that does damage to us is physical. Psychopaths can become financially violent and deprive us of our income, our estate, and a hundred other violations that we can all imagine.
Contributors to violence
Dr. Meloy uses what he calls a bio-psycho-social model for Violence Risk Assessment to assess an individual’s risk for violence. This consists of the biological aspects, the psychological aspects and the social aspects of the individual in question.
The first, the psychological domain, contains such things as gender, age, past history of violence, frequency of violence, how recent have they been violent, and severity of past violence, paranoia, intelligence, anger, fear problems, and the frequency and intensity of them, as well as control of impulses. Of course, the psychopathy and other attachment problems will weigh in heavily on this.
The second, the social or environmental domain, looks at the family of origin violence, economic instability and poverty, WEAPONS HISTORY, weapon skill, interest and approach behavior, as well as alcohol and or psycho-stimulant use.
The third domain is the biological one. Is there a history of head trauma, or major mental disorder (like untreated bi-polar disorder).
Dr. Meloy also emphasizes that the MOST IMPORTANT factor in his judgment is the history of past violence. The best predictor of future violence is a history of past violence.
Questions to ask yourself in doing your own “risk assessment for violence” in your psychopath are: How “provoked” is your psychopath by losing you? Do they have the paranoid personality disorder, in which they feel “that everyone is out to get them,” with a long memory for imagined slights or wounds from those people “out to get them”? Are they chronically angry, fearful and jealous? Some forms of illegal drugs will also contribute to paranoia, and as the use of drugs and the interest and reliance on weapons goes up, so does the risk of violence. Dr. Maloy mentions the killing of Nichole Brown Simpson, where she was not only killed, but after death her body almost beheaded. He says that drugs, along with the rage, could have easily lowered the threshold for the abandonment rage which probably motivated the killer.
Fear and stalking
Dr. Meloy also goes into the lack of difference between biochemical reactions to both fear and anger. Both cause the same reaction within the body. How intense is the anger response in the person you are evaluating? How does the person handle anger?
Dr. Meloy differentiates between two different kinds of violence by illustrating his text with a story about a cat.
We have all seen a cat, cornered by a dog, with its hackles raised, its tail up, hissing and spitting. That cat is emotionally reacting in a violent way to the fear inside it that it is going to be attacked by the dog. (This is called “affective” or emotional violence in reaction to a perceived threat.) Once the perceived threat is gone, the cat will quickly return to a state of calm. The purpose of this kind of violence is “threat reduction.”
The second type of violence illustrated with another story of a cat is the predatory violence, which is planned and purposeful and goal directed.
The planned and purposeful (or predatory) violence has a minimal or absent autonomic arousal, (which is the hair standing on end, the hissing and spitting etc.). As you observe the cat in predatory violence—such as stalking a mouse or bird—the cat is calm, cool and collected. It is focused on a goal as it stalks the prey. It tries to keep its purpose (violence) hidden and it tries to keep the prey from realizing that it is prey.
The brain chemicals released in each of these states of violence are completely different. The emotionally generated fear induced violence is a defense mechanism. It can still be a threat to anyone who is the perceived enemy, but it quickly subsides once the threat is gone.
With predatory violence, the predator is goal directed to do violence to the prey. They may plot and plan and take quite some time to stalk and corner the prey. The predator may strike without warning. Unlike emotionally (fear) induced violence, predatory violence is not time limited and the stalking may go on for days, weeks, months or years.
Knowing which type of violence your psychopathic adversary is involved with at any given moment can help you assess what your course of action should be. If the Psychopath is showing the “cornered cat” response, for example for being confronted in a lie, your best response is to just “back off” and let them calm down when the perceived threat is removed. If the psychopath is stalking you; emotionally, financially, or physically, they will not be so obvious to spot as the enraged cat. Once you have determined that the person you are dealing with is a psychopath, or likely one, you must assume that the person will engage in predatory violence on some level. The fact that this stalking and predatory violence may be very subtle does not make it any less dangerous.
In the short term, cornering one in a threatening manner (confrontation of any kind) can produce an emotionally violent response or even physical attack, but in the long term, the predatory violence can do more damage to us, body and soul. We need, I think, to assess the state our psychopath is operating in, and learn when to back off with confrontations, and when to prepare ourselves for “out of the blue” attacks when they are in a predatory state.
written by Lovefraud Reader • Permalink •
Ox Drover says:
Dear hoipe4joy,
Call your attorney as soon as he gets back in his office and say that you want jerk face OUT of the house NOW—-Get a judge’s order to get him out.
Stand up to jerk face and say “Loook,k you will not honor my boundaries,k you keep tryinjg to touch me and you cannot stay here two more months. I want the divorce FINAL by then. lFind you a place to live and get your chit and get out of here, don’t make me have to go to the judge and get him/her tothrow you out, it will not look good and you won’t make points with the judge and in the meantime please know that if you touch me even one more time trying to hug me I will call the cops and charge you with assault and battery—thiis no joke, jerk face. Our marriage is over.
One week—so get your stuff togehter or I will get it together and put it out on the front porch.
Then get a lock smith to come to the door and get the locks changed after you have put his stuff outside if he hasn’t moved it. (Clothes, personal items, a bed, a few towels, his shoes, and shaver, and anything that belonged to his familyl—or if yhou’d feel better get a small storage building and put it inside th building and give him the key)
YOu can do it, Hope! Do it for your daughter, let her have a P-FREE christmas without her father there! POut your suit of ADAMANT on and stretch that new back bone and “tell him how the cow ate the cabbage” ((((hug(((((
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Ox Drover says:
Happy thanksgiving guys! I was just now able to log on, for some reason LF wouldn’t load!
My low sodium (no added salt) dressing turned out GRAND and so did my mashed taters, and sweet’n'sour sweet potatoes (with OJ and pineapple and brown sugar) and turkey yummy! and I was even MODERATE in my portions! I’m so proud of myself! Even made a pine apple upside down cake for desert–low(er) calorie as well and very good! Hope you all had a great day!
Hope, you are going to have to force him to leave with a COURT ORDER at the very least. He will NOT do it “nicely” and you may even have to get the court order enforced by the local law, so be prepared to do so. Don’t let the back bone wilt! (((hugs))))
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soimnotthecrazee1 says:
Hey Ox Drover!
Happy Thanksgiving! I tried all day to get LF to load and it wouldn’t!!!!! What is that kind of a problem??? I know there were some people counting on being here today. Of all days for technical difficulities… not good! Any way! Dinner with the neighbors was great!
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!
soimnotthecrazee1!!!
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ErinBrock says:
Me too….not able to log on either.
I hope you all had a nice Thanksgiving.
I need to change my ‘expectations’! This were my lessons of today.
I’m starting to feel some of the same feelings I felt with spath…..during our breakup. This is weird to me, since he’s my son…..NOT my spouse.
I guess it’s the feeling of loss…….letdown, wanting to count on someone you can’t, wanting my son to be my son, NOT an argumentative, unreliable, toxic alien?
There is just something not right in him……. I can’t put my finger on it. I don’t know if he’s depressed, or a teen…..or what……
I think he pulls away from people to remain a victim…..he know’s victim…..
He’s so judgemental of EVERYONE around him…..picks them apart….BEHIND their backs.
Will never say anything confrontational to anyone (other than me…..to whom he’s NOTHING but confrontational).
Everything is an argument, everything is uphilll….
He wants trust, he argues that he SHOULD be relied on…..and then continues to let people down…..school, commitments, work, friends….me, and doens’t understand why people are discounting him.
JR will insist on doing something……INSIST…..then wait until the 11th hour……as I’ve spent all 11 hours wanting to have faith in him……hoping ‘this time’ will be different……and BOOM……non completion, non follow through…..and without any recognition of the bind he put other in. And me picking up the peices.
I need to learn how to not count on him. Take away that hope….. It’d be so much less stress on me that way!
Today’s example……..last week, HE VOLUNTEERED to make the pies for Thanksgiving. He went into my GF’s business to ask her how many pies she wanted….she said at least 2 but 3 would be good….she was having 22 people.
HE BROUGHT THIS UP…..not me asking, or her asking or anyone else asking him……HE Said….I”LL MAKE THE PIES.
Then….she saw him again……he confrimed…what pies he was making……she kept asking me……is Jr making the pies….I respond in the same fashion I did when spath was around…..Oh, yes, ofcourse…..(like why would you question that)
I asked him on Monday WHEN he’d be by to make the crust…..he stops and figures it out and says on Wed.
Okay…..(with my doubting silently) wed!
Last night at 9:30…..I was just pulling out the butter…..to make the crusts myself…..and he pulls in……
He sits down……and about an hour later, starts to make a move……it took him until 12am, to cuisinart 3 crusts (which consists of 4 sticks of butter cut into slices, flour, salt and cold water pulsed in a cuisinart)….wrap it in plastic and INSIST on putting it in freezer…..and he’d be back tomorrow…….he asked what time do we have to be there….I said 1pm at the latest.
Pies need to be baking by 10am. they take 50-70 minutes..(3 pies). they need to chill and set…….BEFORE WE GO!
I told him he shouldn’t freeze the crust…..he argued that was how it was done…….
The crust he made was MUCK (worked it in the cuisinart of 1.5 HOURS)…..looked like a ball of butter and flour MUCK……(okay mom….shut up…….be thankful!)
He left……I removed crusts from freezer and refridgerated overnight……
At 11:30 I called him…..woke him up…….no sign of him…..1:00…..no sign of him…..I had taken the muck crust out of the fridge at 8AM this morning……part of it melted inside was frozen…….from the time he spent with insisting it stay in the freezer….arguing about it……
I finally realize…..he AIN”T MAKING THE PIES and NOW the dough is NOT ROCK HARD……get on it mom!
It took me 1.5 hours to cut this ball of frozen muck up into workable peices…..try to form a crust……attempt to put it in a pie pan…….make the filling and bake it….for 70 odd minutes…..
Okay…..getem in the oven…….the smoke detectors are ALL going off…..go back into the kitchen……the ovens on fire……
half the crust falls off into the bottom of oven and the butter muck ignites…..(the crust is like dust it’s so short)
Put out the fire…..rinse/repeat 10 minutes later…..now it’s a sugar fire……the side of each pie which lost 1/2 the crust, now is leaking filling…….fire #2. Reach in, burn my hand….throw baking soda …fire out.
I’m in tears……I’ve got a total mess….pies smoking…..it’s NOW 2:40….(I’m an hour and 40 minutes late).
I sit down…..fight the tears and the pity party…….and decide…..let it OUT..>EB just cry!!!!
Why is he so unreliable? Why does he do this ALL the time…..why do I not step in front of him, stop having faith in him, he doesn’t deserve…..and reduce my stress……and DO IT MYSELF!!!!!!
This is EVERY DAMN DAY!!!! It’s like swimming against the current with him!!!!!!! Doesn’t matter WHAT it is……
He thinks he can reinvent the wheel……he’s always got a better timing and a better way…..AT EVERYTHING!!!!
It’s 3:30, phone rings…..it’s Jr…..Hey…..I just woke up, I’m getting in the shower…..I’ll be buy……..NO MENTION OF ANY PIES…..just a HEY.
Now….I’m silenced by this……waivering on eggshells….it’s Thanksgivning, I don’t want to fight……I’m already sad….so EB just shut up or you’ll be punished further…….I allow him to silence me…..and I WALK ON EGGSHELLS in order to have a peaceful, decent thanksgiving I can enjoy with friends and kids……
We are the only family we have……US…..that’s IT!
I did this with SPATH FOR 28 FUCKING YEARS!!!!! I just got rid of spath…..and Jr is picking up where spath left off……IS THIS NORMAL??????
WHY IS MY HEART BREAKING…..why is he choosing to make things so difficult? WHY DO I CARE SO MUCH? WHY DO I LET HIM AFFECT ME?????????
I allowed him to put me in this bind….when he showed up at 9:30 last night….I immediately threw the butter back in the fridge and didn’t allow him to see me starting to make the pies……SO HE WOULDN”T GET MAD AT ME???????????? WTF??????
I should have bulldozed through, said FUCK IT….make the damn pies, enjoy this experience……and the pies would have been done…KABOOM……so what he’d be pissed at me…..do the gaslighting dance…..say I always change the plan……and walk off……
LOOK AT HOW IT TURNED OUT FOR ME? Did my trusting iin him turn out any different? NOT! Another let down.
We drive up to my GF’s……and they are eating!!!!
How embarrasing…..I bring 2 dishes I made the night before…..(so I could enjoy today with Kids and NOT be rushed)…..they are cold, I planned on warming them right before dinner……I thought she said 5pm……20 ppl have just sat down and said grace…..and I show up with 2 dishes….COLD. Kids in tow.
(and pies)….warm!
So I nuke my dishes…..and go around frantically offering each person these dishes……..kids sit down, I’m sweating and stressed, trying again to HIDE it…..don’t want to be the buzzzkill……and JR goes and get’s a plate……and sit’s off at the corner of a table….ALONE!
WOn’t converse or engage with any of their kids…..just sit’s there like he’s invisable and VERY UNCOMFORTABLE.
The other kids get up to go into living room…..and JR sit’s at the table…..ALONE!!!!!!
It’s not as if he didn’t have any legs and coulnd’t move to another table……
NOW i’m feeling uncomfortable…..as everyone is saying….Jr, pull up a chair and join us……No, I’m okay……
He’s got a very awkward look to him…..NOW feeling weird…..cuz it’s MY kid everyones trying to include.
He asked me for my carkeys…..goes outside…..comes back in looking even worse……has this odd, depressed look on his face….blank……he wispers to me…..he’s not feeling well….just puked outside, asks where the bathroom is……and later, comes back and eats pie??????????????
I didn’t enjoy my meal…..(good thing about that is….I didn’t eat too much, hardly ate!!!!) Neve had dessert…..never felt comfortable…..because I was preoccupied with JR….the whole time?
WHY DO I ALLOW THIS….why can’t I have the mindset of……all ‘men’ for themselves….and i’m gonna take care of ME….and NOT worry about you, your feelings or your comfort?!!!!
I had high hopes of thanksgiving….I had plans….we weren’t going to be alone…..we were going to be with good people, who I care about and care about us…..
I was home in 2.5 hours. Start to finish…….
Boom….Thanksgiving, time to enjoy friends and family….over in 2,5 hours! No chatting, just stress and preoccupied……preoccupied with not letting any of the other guests know I was sad…or how my day went…..I didn’t want to bring anyone else down….so put on the happy face and fake it….I know my GF didn’t buy it…..but I think everyone else did….who knows.
4 years ago….and all the years prior….we had 20 people here at my house….stay for a week…..all family…..
Kids wanted tradition….JR especially……you ask, I provide….I LOVED IT!!!!!! JR loved it………it was alot of work….but it was cool…..kids were all together, we all cooked together, played cards at night……sledded in the days, or snowshoed, built snowmans…..went out for pizza…..laughed and had the Holiday that I wanted to provide for me and kids…..full of family and friends……
NOW……at 7:30pm……I’m alone……that’s it…..alone in tears, with my very own pity party…..of what I ‘used’ to have, and what I still work hard to provide for my kids…….and still can’t manage to pull it off!!!!
I feel like JR sabotages me……I asked him the other day if he hated me……he was perplexed by the question…..
i said…..your tone, on the phone…..is HORRID, you scream at me, your nasty sounding…..even if your just telling me you saw me drive by the grocers today…..its NASTY.
And I remember someone else in my life who left me with the same ‘taste’ in my mouth…..
Can I get over this resentment towards Jr? Will he ever be ‘normal’ to me/successful or at least able to function in the society we live in…….?
I look back at how sick I was…..and how he would say…..I’m so affraid of losing you mom……and this is how he treats me? Not a care in the world…..
NEVER even asked me IF the pies were taken care of…..He KNEW i’d do them eventually, when it was clear he wasn’t showing up…..
WHAT, could I show up to a dinner we were invited to, and pass along the ‘punishment’ to prove a point to him……that he LET EVERYONE AT THAT DINNER down? By not ‘covering’ for him and making the pies……could I DO THAT?
I couldn’t…..I felt piegeon holed……HE KNEW I WOULD COVER!!!!!! NEVER GAVE IT A SECOND THOUGHT.
When he arrived to go…….he said, are you okay? UH YEAH.
He KNEW….what is he a MORON????? Why does he put it back on me….and WHY DO I ALLOW HIM TO? Tonight, it was because I wanted a Thanksgiving….salvage a good night….out of a shitty day. Turn it around…..
In the end…..the end result was the same…..he was a bump on a log……I got the stress and work……and I didn’t enjoy myself!
WTF!
Sorry….I’m just not in a good place right now…..Thanks for being here….I probably shouldn’t post this……I just needed to RANT!!!!!!!!! And VENT!!!!!
Sorry….I guess I should be Thankful for having a place to go….and an opportunity to fight with my kid.
Somehow……it doesn’t feel good.
Maybe it IS me?
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Ox Drover says:
Dear ErinB,
Well, Join the club darling! I would suggest that you get Junior a basic cook book on how to make pie crusts and filling—step 1, 2, 3 etc. and tell him “Junior, now that you are an adult, you must take something to the party—3 pies! Here are the directions how to prepare them, the times it will take and I want them done the DAY BEFORE we go—you were not reliable this time, and In the future I expect you to be reliable if you plan to attend. NO PIES, NO ATTEND.
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ErinBrock says:
Did that-printed out….pictures and all….he’s always made the pie crusts since he was little……used to love it…declared this HIS job……….but my problem was with MY boundaries….I WANTED something I’m just NOT going to get….a nice holiday with my small, family……and freinds…..
so I was gonna do anything to be together…..and not tell him to fuck it….stay home…..
My problem!
Go ahead…..get the whip out!
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shabbychic says:
EB, yes, in the beginning of your post… the fact that he WANTED to make the pies sounded really sweet! How many kids his age even know how a pie crust is made?
Sorry to hear you burned your hand. Hope that is feeling better.
Don’t think a whip is needed!! I would have done the same thing you did (all of it, make the pies, act happy, cry afterwards).
I, of course, would not want my friends and family to know the problems I was having and also would be feeling responsible for the dessert… even though it wasn’t technically me that said I would make the pies… if my kid said it… it’s like I said it… does that make sense? My daughter is older now and knows she’s on her own as far as something like that goes.
You are now beginning to create new boundaries with Jr. (didn’t he move out recently?) This is a whole new ballgame and the rules are changing, don’t be so hard on yourself, who wants their kid to stay home on a holiday?
I’m sure you are going to let him know that this behavior in the future is unacceptable. I guess they grow up and realize we are not going to bail them out of problems anymore… but in this case, I would have made the pies too (or in my case… go buy them somewhere, LOL)
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ErinBrock says:
I had enough…..and I BOOTED HIM about 2 weeks ago.
The heartburn way outweighed the handburn……if ya know what I mean.
Can I change this……NOPE!
Can I change me……YEP!
So the answer lies within.
He always ‘appears’ sweet…..and wanting to please…..(to others)……but it lands in my lap always!!!!!
Heres another aggravater…..I DID learn NEVER, EVER to volunteer HIM…for something….because I’d end up doing it….
NOW…it’s evolved into HIM volunteering himself…..’graciously’…..and dropping the ball…..and I PICK IT UP when I have MY face to save…….like showing up to dinner with 20+ peeps on TG with NO DESSERT!
It’s obviousley NOT about the friggen pies huh? Ya think……
I guess i’m just REAL tired of being let down by him and expected to do ‘clean up’. It makes my life hard to manage when he is always throwning in daily Curve balls. He makes POOR choices…..over and over and over and over…..
Goes back to what the therapist told me…..EB, you must let LIFE be his teacher!
And I’m scared of spathlyhood taking grasp…….I didn’t raise him to act like his father……BUT….I must remember…..HE does have his ‘genes’……so why am I shocked at this behavior?
Expect it…..and work around it……and prepare yourself for it to get worse….
Chic….did you spend time with Bro today? I hope you had a nice day and got out darlen!!!!
Sorry i’m so foul today.
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shabbychic says:
Yeah, life is a tough teacher, maybe we try to spare them some of the hard knocks… but they get knocked down in spite of our efforts to shield them. Isn’t that what mom’s do? We teach teach teach… and they don’t listen. The part about him acting like nothing happened is the weird part. Volunteered himself, good one! So no, you don’t want to drop the ball when you are all supposed to show up with dessert for 20 people!!!! I know it’s not about the pies, but you wanted to have a nice holiday, I so get it. I would also be shocked at this behavior, what you have written about him before… he sounds like a pretty good kid, just hit the moody years? So you booted him 2 weeks ago… sounds like you already have some good boundaries in place, like the other day when you woldn’t let him borrow the snow blower!
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ErinBrock says:
When I started feeling like his father was standing in front of me, getting in my face, slamming doors and walls when i wouldn’t ‘comply’ with his ‘demands’ ……and he had 2 meltdowns in a week…..threw dishes etc…..YEP…..DONE!
At that point……I gave up.
I’ve seen this behavior lots’……and I ain’t gonna take it from my son. I don’t do this to him……
It’s a very weird feeling wishing and KNOWING life doesn’t have to be this hard……
but he don’t see it…….I had teh same feeling with spath…..
But…..if he makes certain choices…..life WILL always be this hard.
I just don’t understand WHY he does this…..and as a mother…..at what point DO we quit? At WHAT point do we walk away…….for good….
again….I stuck around in my marriage….giving him the benefit of doubt…..I always swore….I wouln’t ‘give up’ until I felt I gave it 1000%. Why would it be any different giving up on my OWN baby? What if im wrong, what if I cause him more emotional harm….what if all this is due to his fathers crap….what if I am not reading him right…….what if he’s crying out and I’m not getting the signal right……What if he’s pushing me away……out of fear of abandonment.,from spath and i’m failing him by letting go……
what if, what if, what if…….and I keep my life on hold….what if……
It’s a sucky burdon…..
I don’t know how to NOT care, not worry, not plan MY life around the kids……
Put ME first……WHO??????
I coulnd’t tell you what/how/where I’ll be in a year…..only because I’m afraid of making MY OWN Plans……
I’d like to be in a different place……but in a good place…..and I don’t see that…..with Jr…..I see running around in circles……I don’t have the stamina anymore…..I know what each quarter of the circle laps look like…..and I DON”T LIKE IT!
This is when I’m gonna do somehting drastic, sell everything and disappear off to Costa Rica with Star or something…..and NOT leave a forwarding address.
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ErinBrock says:
Chic…..my face hurts…..I think iv’e cried myself out tonight…..
Thanks for being here……tomorrow IS another day!
I’ve got to go to bed…..
Nighty night~
and big XXOO’s to you baby!!!!
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geminigirl says:
Dearest EB, Darlin, Id like to give you th biggest {{HUG!}}, make you a hot chocolate, and tuck you up in bed.!
Im so sorry that your Thanksgiving day went pear shaped!
I also think that maybe junior is missing you more than he lets on, and doesnt want to tell you he misses you.
He knows he dropped the ball re the pies,when youve both calmed down, maybe you can have a laugh about it all later!
Xmas and Thanksgiving are such emotionally loaded times,with evryone pretending were “Mr and Mrs Norman Rockwell,American as Apple pie. Its harder on single or divorced Moms{and Dads too, Im sure.}.Also, maybe Junior sees you flying around with snowblowers etc, and feels, “I should be doing all this for Mom”. he feels guilty, mad, confused,angry at spath dad, and hey, on top of all this he IS a teenager after all!
When the heat is off all of this,Id have real heart to heart with him find out whats bugging him. Im sure hes a good kid at heart. Massive {{HUGS!!}}, Mama gem.XXX
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aussiegirl says:
Hopeforjoy:
“He said he would be out in January. He has tried to stay for so long, begged and cried and bargained” – sweetheart, cut him loose – let him go – make him go. Please. Now.
This time of year is famous for not only the good and heart-warming family connections but also for the following:
a rise in domestic violence and other family crimes
a rise in alcohol and drug-fueled crimes
a rise in marital/relationship splits/fights/tension
a rise in suicidal and murderous behaviours.
Over the next two months, there are way too many buttons available for him to push that could wear you so down that by January you may not have the emotional or mental or physical strength required to stand your ground. Please do it NOW before he puts you where you can’t. x
EB: I do hope you are feeling a little better by now. xxx.
Gem and I just posted at the same time! I agree with what she says but also understand your fears of the old “gene” problem – I hold the same fears for my former step-son (who is now 16 and very troubled) and so does his bio mum. How old is your son?
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Dear EB – first, I want to call a moratorium on people apologizing that they post; it’s a blog!
I am not on lf consistently, so I missed that you had kicked him out – that’s a huge step toward getting some peace in your life. I know you had some good times with jr this summer; i wish that could be your reality with him, but it seems it is not. you have to let him go, if he is toxic to you. the not right about him may just be having grown up with his father. nurture not nature. my mom doesn’t drink, but her dad did – and, I act like a kid of an alcoholic…I’ve learned from her, she both acts like an alcoholic and a kid of an alcoholic.
huge opportunity is in your hands now; to learn to say no to the behavior regardless of the agent. You can let him fail, you can endure the exposure and embarrassment. You have done a great deal of damage control with the spath – showed a sunny face until he landed so deep int he shit that others questioned HIM and not You. You have to let jr fail also, the playing field has changed – you don’t have the energy; and you are not the person you were before.
Call dibs on tg next year. YOU need the tradition.
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jazzy129 says:
EB…so sorry about your Thanksgiving. I think that I might have caught something important….something that sounds a lot like my ex spath hole.
“I had enough…..and I BOOTED HIM about 2 weeks ago.”
EB, he was PUNISHING you! He wanted to PUNISH you…he may have had the pie thing all planned out.
My ex spath hole is a middle aged ‘man’, and his Mommy still bails him out! No job, she buys him a car. No home, she lets him live with her. No job, no money, she pays for his cell phone, insurance, and for doing ‘jobs’ around the house. He stole from his brothers and trash-talked them and their kids, so they want nothing to do with him anymore. Mommy is the only one enabling him now, as far as I know. If she continues to enable, he can take his time and shop around for another patsy like me.
As one step said…”huge opportunity is in your hands now”. Take it, EB. You are such a nice person…let it be all about YOU from now on. Let him sink or swim.
(((HUGS))) Jazzy
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Hopeforjoy says:
EB,
Sweetie, your Thanksgiving has now passed and you can look at things in a new light. Is it you? Hell no!!!! You overcame so many challenges and made your kids the central theme in your life. Your love for them shines through on this blog so I imagine it’s ten times greater in your ‘real’ life.
Jr. has to make his own mistakes. It’s too early to know what path he will chose, you modeled a healthy, loving parent and he needs to decide what to do with that. Kids tend to blame their parents for the problems in their life but ask yourself, am I to blame? Obviously not. You are not to blame. Keep repeating this because 100% the truth. You raised Jr. in love. Keep up your boundaries, they are put there out of love and compassion.
It hard to hear your pain because you have been such a huge pillar of strength.
My 23 year old daughter continues to do irresponsible things and I have learned to quite enabling her behavior. She has some fierce mood swings and I worry about bi-polar. she is lucky enough to have a narc dad and a narc/spath stepdad. Bonus for her. I loved and cared for her the best I could and still try to be a positive influence even with all my blasted problems. She makes her own choices, I am not responsible for them. You are not responsible for Jr’s choices either.
The fact that his dad is a spath really complicates things. Second guessing his motives and seeing similairities between his actions and good ole dad. He may grow out of his bad choices and take control of his life but you aren’t responsible for his bad choices in the meantime.
Today is a new day, put yesterday behind you and if Jr ever ‘forgets’ to make the pies, it’s not your fault. None of it is yours to own! Take care and many warm hugs!!!!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear EB,
Darling your day yesterday reminds me of my “End of year Holidays” last year and How I MELTED DOWN when son C lied to me after breaking his agreement to make good choices on his spending while he was living here (Paying rent and board but still living WELL for very little percentage of his paycheck!) So I told him he had to leave and he did—then LIED TO HIS FRIENDS and his boss that I had tossed him out on the street in the middle of the night (I had given him 30 days to leave) and left here (after spending a huge chunk on toys) owing me for a truck he had purchased—I told him to either pay me the FULL amount by Monday or return the truck until he had paid it off in FULL. He did pay it off (wasn’t a lot, a few hundred dollars)
Since then, the guy who he is renting a place to stay from went into foreclosure on his double wide mobile home (long story why) and somehow the two of them managed to get some sort of chity-arse “single wide trailer” put on the lot this guy uses though it belongs to his step mother (I can only imagine what it is like, I’ve seen the “trailers” this guy lived in before!!!)
I went into a complete melt down because son C lied to me—and it wasn’t over the ONE LIE, but the 100+ other lies he had told me before. C isn’t a psychopath, he is just someone who is dysfunctional and refuses to live his life in a way that I think makes “good sense” and “good choices”—he is DOOMING himself to a life of ABJECT POVERTY even though he works at a steady job, he “blows” his money on “toys” and computer games which seem to be the only thing in life he is really interested in. Sooner or later he will have some minor emergency that will render him unable to get to work–his car will crap out, or need major work and he won’t have a dime saved up to fix it or as a down payment on another. Something will happen so that he needs a place to stay and won’t have a deposit on any kind of place to live, much less the rent for first and last.
He already had major problems with his ankle from repeated strains on it, and the doctor says, wear a brace and use a cane…that’s great! He’s been wearing a brace for 20+ years, but it doesn’t help the pain, and surgery isn’t the answer–sorry. Even if surgery was the answer, how on earth would he manage with 8-12 weeks off work—in an economy where his work as a machinist is going to China and India anyway? Jobs are HARD to come by in his field, and in our area low paying anyway.
All of the problems he has are AVOIDABLE by THINKING AHEAD…by focusing on saving money rather than spending it on “boy toys”—he is living and his friends are living what we refer to here as “trailer trash.” Always broke, always in a financial tight…and as they age, it only gets worse as they are less and less age to come up with the resources to even maintain the necessities of life.
The only thing in his favor my son C has is that he isn’t a drinker or drugger. It breaks my heart to see him hang out with guys just like him that “feed” his decisions by making the same kind of decisions, and I feel certain that in the end my son will wind up with nothing to show for his life but some obsolete and broken computers and living in a cardboard box. It wasn’t necessary, and he had a CHOICE not to live that way. But he made HIS CHOICE. Sure, after the big blow up with his wife trying to kill him (Oh, boy did I try my best to have him get better acquainted with the cyber-chick before he married her and took on raising her “Devil child” teenaged daughter and her disabled AND disordered son—but no, he had to marry her “before mom broke them up”—and he had actually had a couple of nice GFs.
I too tried to “help” him….and over looked his disrespectful behavior toward me. BUT IT BROKE MY HEART, and when I finally DID set limits last year and ask him to leave….you remember I am sure my 60 day melt down! Holidays HUMBUG!!!!
WE WANT THE BEST FOR OUR KIDS EB! We want them to take advantage of the opportunities we make available for them. Like finish high school. JUNIOR made the choice not to finish, and my guess is (though you haven’t said) that he isn’t going to finish this year either. So now, he is without even a HS diploma in a bad situation for job hunters with COLLEGE DEGREES. I also imagine the guys he is living with are not exactly great role models either.
I wish I could put my arms around you and hug you and let you cry it out, or that I could do something to make you feel better about it….but the only thing I can do, EB is to tell you that I understand your pain, your frustration and your loss of your hopes and dreams that Jr. will fix himself.
It isn’t just the PIES, it is that you lost your expectations, your dream that he might be seeing the light. Those DREAMS are precious to us. We WANT Them BADLY!! We grieve when they evaporate in the sad light of reality! We’ve held on to them since the day we realized we were pregnant with the child we loved so much our heart was directly attached to them.
Junior (like my son C) may not be a psychopath, but he isn’t without dysfunctions, isn’t without poor choices. He may or may not learn from the consequences of those poor choices, but the only thing that you and I, that WE can do, is to stop having those hopes and dreams for them, and accept them as they are.
I don’t hate C, but I am not there for him any more. When he gets into a financial tight and needs help (or wants to borrow my tools) there’s not any help available, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT DONE THE BEST HE COULD TO HELP HIMSELF. I am no longer the “bail out” queen, running to his aid. He is ON his OWN now.
I didn’t invite him for TG dinner, and I am sure unless one of his better friends invited him he didn’t have one. Oh, well. I won’t send him a card for his birthday, or invite him for Christmas dinner either! He recently send me an e-mail copy of his MRI on his ankle and asked me to “translate it into english” for him, and I did so, and I keep him advised on the parole hearing with his brother. But that is the only time I contact him even by e mail and it has been nearly a year since I have seen him, and only probably 8 or 10 e mails about “business” (or his medical information) but no other communication about how we are “doing” or wondering about how “he” is doing. He has sent me some information (like the repossession of his buddy’s double wide) but I didn’t even comment on it…I just stuck to the BUSINESS of the parole hearing. I did translate his MRI into English and told him what I thought the doctor would tell him about his ankle (and it turned out to be right on) and he sent me back information saying I had been right—but I just replied. “Sorry to hear that.” nothing more.
I have come to accept, though I am saddened, that my “predictions” of what his life will be like are pretty likely to occur. I really don’t need a crystal ball to predict what road he is headed down. It isn’t one I would have chosen for him, but at least he is not robbing liquor stores, and he isn’t raping little children, or blowing the brains out of his Girl friends. So, could be worse. There are levels of dysfunction. He has his, I have mine. You have yours. We are though, at least trying to keep our lives between the ditches, and I know it hurts to see someone you do love weaving from ditch to ditch, and wondering when they will hit a tree…but we can’t stop it, any more than we could with the psychopaths. ((((EB))))) and much love and prayers from your friend, Oxy
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silvermoon says:
EB,
Sounds like a tough day.
Couple of thoughts…
Boys of Few Words, Dr. Adam Cox
Boys are different.
There is always more to the story.
And there are always a couple of sides.
Children learn what they have lived. And you and yours have been through hell.
Maybe there is a chance to do some real work and a need.
I feel your distress.
I wish there were easy answers.
Advice may pour down from the stadium full, but only the matador faces the bull….
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soimnotthecrazee1 says:
EB,
I’m sorry you had such a trying day. You were in the “washing machine”. I’m at a loss for words to comfort you, but your love for your children and family does shine through. I hope you are having a much better day today.
Hugzzz,
soimnotthecrazee1!
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silvermoon says:
EB,
My son seemed lazy and disobedient. He had bursts of extraordinary anger and prolonged periods of non performance…
Then we found out he had extraordinary sleep apnea.
Sometimes it is what it looks like and sometimes its not.
He’s going to be a late bloomer because he kind of lost years. And a lot of the years when his father and I were still together traumatized him. It was worse when I sent him to dad for a year .
Sometimes they tell us things by actions that we can’t understand clearly right away. So, I’d ask the questions about why and how it all added up. And I’d pursue homework.
There are people who know more than we do. And their insights are often, I have found invaluable.
Is there a physical problem that may be existant but many years overlooked? Are there issues that can be overcome?
My experience was that the hard core advice I was given was wrong and eventually both my child and I were validated. But it was a long road. And WE had some really TOUGH times.
I have stories that sound like yours. I have spent those bitter nights and pained days.
The road is long. The road is rocky. And there are so many possible outcomes.
Wishing for you that there is a good one for you and this boy.
Know we are all here for YOU. And there are resources here. Dr. Leedom, Steve Beck- and there are many, many more.
Sometimes things are what we think on first pass and sometimes they are not.
Sometimes we are persuaded by the experiences of others to overlook details in our own that differentiate them.
There is no single or simple answer.
I just know from my own, that there was a time when I was very,very wrong to believe what I thought I understood about my child and that it has taken a lot of work to bring things back toward where they should have been.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear EB, Silver has a very valid point there. I know that son C is very much ADHD and also has severe depression and PTSD—however, he REFUSES to take medication for either the ADHD or the PTSD or depression….again, his choice…his consequences.
Is it possible that your son has ADHD and/or bi-polar or depression? Those can definitely contribute to irritability and outbursts and impulsive behavior, failure to focus and so on.
My son did take medication for a while (about a year) after he married the cyber-bride-psychopath but has stopped and refuses to take medication or even try. I actually think he likes the highs of the ADHD that he gets playing his video games and the medication interferes with that. Unfortunately many people with bi-polar also don’t like medication because they enjoy the highs and feel “down” by comparison with medication leveling them out.
Silver, I also have severe sleep apnea and I am THE most motivated patient in the world for my machine (which is a PITA–pain in the arse–but I feel better, think better and cannot do without it!) In fact, just had another sleep study and they found I also have “restless leg” syndrome, but so far I’m doing okay without any medication for that—sleeping 90% of the time I think I’m asleep with the machine, but only 10% of the time I think I am asleep if I don’t wear the machine. BIG DIFFERENCE!
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ErinBrock says:
Thank you ALL for your words of encouragement, love and support!!!!
Today is a NEW day……
…….and I’m going to take a break from my thoughts today!
My GF came by this am and we chatted about the awkwardness…..of last night….had some more tears, and then ATE some pecan pie!
My Aunt invited us down…..I decided to go…..for another ‘re-run’ of a new THanksgiving with family…..BUT….I left a message for JR…..if he ain’t here….the bus is leaving….
If he’s here,he’s here……if not……Holly and the kids and I will go visit the last of the suppportive family we have left. AND enjoy ourselves…..
We may stay the night…..we may come home tonight….it’s a 2 hour drive….and we are due more snow….so we’ll see.
You guys are so awesome….THANK YOU AGAIN!
I guess life is a constant renegotiation of decisions and setting of boundaries…….
I dealt with spath…..got good at it……just didn’t want to do it with my kids…..wanted a break…..but there is NO rest for the wicked!!!!
So……off and running…..and i’m going to smile today and enjoy myself…….that’s my plan anyways….maybe that is what got me in trouble yesterday……a plan….
OKAY…>EB….GO WITH THE FLOW !
XXOO to you all
EB
BTW….Oxy….HE WAS diagnosed with ADD….and not big on the meds……at 18, can’t forecefeed them…..it’s his choice, we know that!
Life doesn’t have to be this hard…..UNLESS WE CHOOSE IT!?!?!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear EB,
Golly, darling I am so sorry for what is going on with you, but danged if I don’t know pretty much what you are going through, and feel just as helpless. It is NOT ONLY psychopaths that make bad decisions or make poor ones, I’ve made my own share of BAD DECISIONS and bad choices….that’s why I’m here at LF– DUH!?!!!
I remember when Witty’s kid was refusing medications for his bi-polar and/or ADHD as well and the doctors said to her that she should MAKE HIM TAKE THEM….DUH?? What universe are they in that they can MAKE a 16 year old take anything they don’t want to. MAYBE in an alternate universe or a locked psych ward but not in real life! GO FIGURE.
I guess I ought to just be glad that my son C isn’t robbing liquor stores or having sex with children, so there are degrees of dysfunction that is for sure! At least son C has a job, pays his taxes and contributes to society rather than uses up jail space and oxygen that could be better used for other things. Mostly, the one he harms is himself. And when you think about it, EB, how many people do THAT?! How many times have WE done that!?
So, I’m going on with my life, with our without anyone else, and I’m not going to be embarrassed by other people’s expectations of my parenting, or how my kids behave or continue to grieve forever over the fact I DON’T HAVE a close and personal relationship with my kids like I WOULD HAVE WISHED, like I DID wish.
Wishing for things I don’t have, or thought I had and thought I lost, but never had has given me more grief than the Loses of REAL things in life. I’m done crying over things that are NOT, THAT NEVER HAVE BEEN except in my imagination!
Go have a good time with the folks who want to be there with you, and let Junior live his own life—for better or worse, it isn’t something you can control. No expectations=no disappointments. He’ll bake pies when he wants to, he won’t when he doesn’t. He’ll show up before the train leaves if he wants to ride, if he doesn’t show up, he didn’t want to ride. I’ve finally come to realize that son C really doesn’t like my company as much as he has said in the past he did, because he doesn’t need much of an excuse to stay away—and since he doesn’t have a wife that hates me to “blame” his distance on, then he had to find something to make me angry enough to tell him to go away—he couldn’t just man up and “go away” without an excuse. LOL Well, he doesn’t need an excuse any more to stay gone, and if I run into him at Wal Mart, I’ll speak and say “howdy do” but I’d speak to “Crazy Bob” in Wal Mart if I ran into him there, too, so that doesn’t mean a lot…but if either of them wanted to borrow $5 for gas they’d be shiat up the creek without a paddle as far as this old girl is concerned….well, I might actually give “Crazy Bob” the $5 bucks…but son C is SOL financially as far as I am concerned and he doesn’t have anyone else to fall back on that COULD help him if they were so inclined. But I figure at some point in the future, he will “get religion” again and be “oh, Mom, I am soooooo sorry, you are such a prophet! I should have listened to you and not spent my money foolishly, I sure could use a hand….”
Or as Gem says, “The bank is closed, even for loans!”
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Aeylah says:
Dear EB,
Just chiming in….so sorry to read about your sad TG day , your tears and your frustrating pie “event” with Jr.
Holidays are so painfully filled with expectations
of “family”, “sugar plums and everything nice”…the Harold Dickens stories….BAHHHUMBUG if you ask me! that’s the first mistake we make is to believe all that and expect our experience to be the same.
How old is your son? If he’s a teenager/young adult he is probably going through his own emotional confusion and pain at what he’s experienced and seen as an example of “man hood”! He is an angry young man right now and he is like a 2 year old with the inmature narcisstic way they are….you are his batting cage. I’ve experienced the same pain with symilar cituations from both my sons in the past….my younger one 20 yrs old, seems to be in the mids of this right now, as I walk on eggshells with him…but my older one at 23 seems to have past this stage. There is hope….they do hopefully outgrow this stage and grow up. WE just have to LET GO AND LET BE….however difficult this is….I’ve learned from my own experience and many a times crying myself to pieces over it….
….my son whom I thought was heading into the narcisstic path, does come around and realize his part of the problem, I just have to let him go and he comes around on his own. Has shown me empathy and remorse, but at the same time I’ve had to stop trying to depend on him, believe him and control the outcome…..he will in time matue and come around.
In my loneliness and lack of having a “man around the house” and a partner, sometimes I’ve expect too much from my sons….and so get dissapointed and frustrated every time. I set my bounderies when they get rude, insolent, abnoxcious and belligerent…..I let go!!!!! ……..and just when I think they’re done, they come back come around.
Dont give up, just set your bounderies and let go!
(((hugs))) and peace to you!
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dancingnancies says:
I’m not sure if this is your first time posting EDawn but if so welcome ( since this might possibly be your first non-lurker “appearance”
)
Your situation DOES sound serious and honestly I don’t believe that you are necessarily reacting to old tapes. If you didn’t check out “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin Debecker I suggest you do. In fact, here’s a link : http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fea.....0440226198 The premise of the book is that violence CAN be predicted.. we just tend to suppress the signals which alert us to it. If we are more aware of them, we have a much better chance of staying safe. I ordered it and it just arrived recently so I still have yet to complete it ( in fact I’ve only about skimmed the surface.. just a chapter or two) I think that you should take as much precautions as you feel you should. It does strike me as rather odd that he has multiple deceased women in his past? And one of them a suicide.. but I suppose any inferences on those would just be guesses..
YOU know most about your situation and those who don’t understand- they don’t understand because they haven’t been in your shoes and don’t know what he’s capable of. Or it’s easier for them to reassure you otherwise, because it’s a safer feeling.
The motorcycle incident is very disturbing and I am so sorry that you went through that. What a trauma. You did well by getting away.. if I were you I would speak to someone who is well versed in criminology and tell him/her your story. If you could perhaps find someone in your area.. it would help if they know about sociopathy but i suppose it’s not necessarily a prerequisite as the actions he’s already taken are huge red flags in and of themselves. Maybe someone here on LoveFraud with more experience on your situation could even give you advice. It’s good that you’re aware, I’m sure it’s difficult to find validation amongst people around you as they have no idea what you’re going through.. but stick to your gut feeling, as I’ve learned it’s usually right.
I am very sorry for your losses as a result of this guy. Many here I’m sure can relate… if not all. Hope that this pans out and you find out what you’ve gotta do. Best
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kim frederick says:
Edawn, Have the police investigated the deaths of, “his Angel’s”? I think you should talk to them. At least let them know of your suspicions and fears. I think you have reason to be afraid of him. Don’t doubt yourself.
I’m sorry I don’t have more advise about how to protect yourself…but I do believe you should contact the police and at least have a talk with them.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Edawns,
There is an article here on LF (I am out of town right now and don’t have access to my records and computer at home) I wrote on books for people being STALKED….
I think you need to ASSUME that this guy is out to kill you, and that does not mean you are nuts or “just paranoid” because when someone is out to kill you, you FEEL PARANOID….been there, and done that, and ESCAPED with my life. ONLY ESCAPED BECAUSE I WAS PARANOID….so it sounds to me like your GUT is telling you that there is A PREDATOR IN THE BUSHES.
There are ways to “disappear” and leave no PAPER trail behind. I suggest you do just that. Which may mean that you have to leave everyone you know behind as well, just like someone who is a “protected” witness.
Just off the top of my head I remember that California is pretty good about allowing stalking victims to change their names and identifier information…so you may need to go there to start. Do some research on line about this, in the mean time, do not have any documentation on your actual whereabouts, i.e. NO paper with your ACTUAL residence address.
Don’t tell ANYONE who knows you anything at this time. Start your research on how to hide in plain sight. It may also be possible to talk to someone at a DV shelter that would be able to help you. I don’t know what your financial resources are either, so that will be another consideration. Good luck and stay in touch here at LF. If there is anyone in the world who knows what you are going through and will believe you, it is HERE. I ran for my life and I am alive to tell the story. There are others here as well. (((hugs)))) and my prayers for your safety.
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