The Single Most Powerful Signifier of Sociopathy
PDF What is the single most powerful signifier of sociopathy?
How about, lack of empathy?
I don’t think so.
As an isolated factor, I don’t think lack of empathy best nails the sociopath.
Many millions of people, after all, lack empathy and aren’t sociopaths. Also, exactly what constitutes empathy is a subject of some disagreement. Some LoveFraud members, in fact, question whether sociopaths even lack empathy (some asserting, to the contrary, that the sociopaths they’ve known have used their capacity for empathy to exploit them).
But the biggest problem with lack of empathy is its weakeness in explaining the single, truly best signifier of sociopathy—the characterological exploitiveness of the sociopath.
It is a high level of exploitiveness that most singularly exposes the sociopath.
Now exploitiveness is also associated with the narcissistic personality. For this reason extremely destructive (“malignant”) narcissists can be hard to distinguish from sociopaths. Still, a high level of exploitiveness is rarely the single best signifier of narcissistic personality disorder, whereas it is, I suggest, the best single indicator of sociopathy.
Why does lack of empathy fail to explain the sociopath’s exploitiveness? It fails because most people who lack empathy are not exploitive. Just consider the autistic spectrum disorders: Lack of empathy is commonly associated with these disorders, but exploitive behavior is not.
Now it is true that empathic individuals will generally be nonexploitive. Why? Because their empathy will prove a deterrent against exploitative impulses or ideas. Empathy, in other words, surely is a powerful deterrent against exploitation.
But in someone nonexploitative (someone, say, with Asperger’s Syndrome), empathy will not be needed for its deterrent effect. However, in someone inclined to exploitation, lack of empathy will be a missing deterrent in a situation where deterrence is urgent.
Effectively, the sociopath’s exploitive nature is undeterred by empathy, which is missing, thus liberating him to exploit. And it is the sociopath’s tendency, or compulsion, to exploit, I propose, that best characterizes his sociopathy.
I’d be remiss not to clarify my working definition of empathy. Empathy, as I use it, is an experience, or appreciation, of another’s experience that, depending on the situation, elicits a thoughtful, respectful, perhaps nurturing, but never exploitive, response.
While some sociopaths may possess an evolved capacity to read others’ vulnerabilities, this doesn’t make them empathic.
It is the particular response to someone’s vulnerability that indicates the presence of empathy, or exploitation. It is the particular response, or pattern of responses, to someone’s vulnerability that separates the empathic individual from the predator.
In this respect, I regard the sociopath as seriously, and given his exploitive personality, dangerously deficient in empathy.
What about his remorselessness? Certainly the sociopath’s remorselessness is quite notable and diagnostically significant. However, I would argue that the sociopath’s remorselessness is a byproduct not of his lack of empathy, but of his exploitive personality.
Many people who lack empathy are remorseful, for instance when informed that an action they took, or something they said, left someone else feeling damaged. They may struggle to relate emotionally (or even intellectually) to the effect their behavior had on the wounded party (their deficient empathy); but they are upset to learn that their action caused damage.
In other words, they feel remorseful even though their empathy is deficient.
However, exploitation and remorselessness go hand in hand. The essence of exploitation is the intentional violation of another’s vulnerability. The exploiter knows, on some level, that his behavior is exploitive.
By definition, the exploiter is grossly indifferent to the damaging effect of his behavior on his victim. All that matters is his perceived gain, his demanded, greedy satisfaction. There is indifference to the loss and damage to others resulting from his self-centered, aggressive behaviors.
This sounds a lot like callousness; and we recognize callousness as another of the sociopath’s telling qualities. But I would suggest, again, that the sociopath’s callousness derives not from his defective empathy, but rather from his characterological exploitiveness. Most people with deficits in empathy are not callous. On the other hand, the exploitive mentality will engender a callous perspective.
I discussed in a prior post the audacity of the sociopath. I suggested a correspondence between audacity and sociopathy. But here, too, we want to get the causality correct: audacity doesn’t make for sociopathy; but the exploitive mentality will make for staggering audacity.
(My use of “he” in this post is for convenience’s sake, not to suggest that men have a patent on sociopathy. This article is copyrighted (c) 2008 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
EyeoftheStorm says:
Helmets On……….Shields Up!
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Wow, JaneSmith, titanium and light. You sound like a super hero.
I agree. It felt like a violation. I was looking at some of the recovery groups yesterday for incest survivors, and virtually all of them exclude active perpetrators. Something like this explains why. It’s disruptive.
As far as my response went, I’m not sure it did any good. With a certain group of us, I’m preaching to the choir. Others are going through their learning at their own pace.
It was pretty late in my healing process that I surrendered to the fact that I can’t fix or control or even influence their behavior. And that any contact just opens the door to more predation, because I want to live by my own values and my values just set me up for exploitation around them.
Oh well. I think I probably have some karmic debt to work off for what I put my friends and family through, as I kept getting rid of my ex and then letting him slither back into my life. I did this four or five times, telling everyone, “I know what I’m doing. It’s going to be fine.” And then they had to listen to be sob through another disaster.
They were good about it. I guess I can be too, if it comes to that.
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JaneSmith says:
LOL…haha…you peeps are hilarious!
If you’ve read enough of my writing, it’s blatantly obvious I’m a science fiction nerd of the highest caliber. I’m currently reading a most awesome sci-fi series by Kage Baker called…”The Company Novels”….
Brilliant. Just flippin brilliant. Time machines, immortal cyborgs, human precogs who elicit crome radiation, fantastic historical references extending back to the beginning of human existence, 40,000-60,000 years ago.
I’m addicted and joyful in my addiction.
And, Kathleen, I will say it again because I always give credit where credit is due. Your presence on LF is extremely important, valuable and most humbly appreciated by me and I’m sure all the others who read here.
You are one super smart, exceptional woman and don’t you dare forget it!! **HUGGS**
Peace, Love and Joy forever ad infinitum…..
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Kathleen Hawk says:
And back to you, Titania of the light shields.
I just got finished with William Gibson’s “Spook Country.” I love this man and his writing. I embarrass myself mooning over his picture on the back cover.
I should probably stop falling in love with writers, but I moon over half a dozen of them from a distance. I even have an across-the-dimensions love affair going with a dead one, Ranier Maria Rilke.
While I was reading all the psychological stuff during the dark days of recovery, his “Duino Elegies” kept me company. Deep and gorgeous poetry, especially for going through what we’ve been through.
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OxDrover says:
Well, guys, I BLEW IT TODAY! Son C and I had to go to town to get his driver’s license changed from the other state to ours, and low and behold as we were leaving wally world at the check out line, guess who was waiting there with the witch and smear campaign champion, her maid, yep, Mommie Dearest and the maid from hell. I started to walk by her, almost had to push by when she reached out and grabbed my arm and tried to hug me. I pulled away and said “Don’t do this. You have lied to me, you are lying to me, and you have sent money to the P-son” She, of course came back with this pitiful look and said “I didn’t lie to you. I just changed my mind.”
We pushed out of the store, but the damage was done. ANY contact just opens new wounds, or ones that are only thinly scabbed over and the rest of my day was the pits. I sort of dont know wheather to “chit or go blind” right now. I just feel NUMB. Part of me wants to strike out at something. WHAT? Up to that instant all the various delays and irritations hadn’t caused a ripple (the photo machine at the DMV going down just as they went to take my sons Picture…that sort of thing. Delay delay delay…but it was easy to sluff it off as “just life.” But after a contact—all bets are off! Back to the pits of hell. Feeling betrayed, feeling powerless, feeling frustrated. Feeling fear I guess too. Realizing I can’t move until after mom dies, and then I will have to sell the farm and move. HAVE TO as long as my P son still breathes.
Sheesh! How fragile my new resolves are. How thin my scars and scabs…and I guess I am more frustrated and disappointed in myself than anything..thinking that we might find a way to force her to stop sending money at least even if we couldn’t change her mind or her thinking. I KNOW WHAT TO DO, but I just right now don’t feel strong enough to do it. I am SO TIRED OF ALL THIS CRAP.
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Wini says:
Oxy: Take a deep breath … and while you are doing that … give all this chit up to God and let him handle it.
You think you had a bad day, just read your e-mail.
Peace. I’m taking deep breaths too… and am giving my stuff up to God as well.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy,
I very seldom regret leaving Florida to move up to winter country. But the ease of getting someone declared incompetent down there would come in awfully handy at a time like this.
Any chance you could do where you live?
Kathy
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henry says:
Ox – Chill – when you have an unexpected encounter like that it kinda throw’s you for a loop and you assume the worse. You sound hipervigilant and over anxious to me. I would prolly react the same way but then the next day I think “Oh I really should not have let that upset me so”. Ox if you can’t sell the farm till mom die’s then you better make yourself at home because you are at home. And your P son is locked up. We all have to watch out for crimainals and predator’s these’s days – every day. Have a glass of wine and some cheese and cracker’s – I think mommie dearest just put you in temporary shock. I bet tomorrow you will feel much better…..and who know’s she may out live you so like i said make your self at home…hope that helped if not here’s a big HUG from Henry )))))((((
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JaneSmith says:
Oxy,
Sweetheart, that’s your mother! I would be in the same place mentally and emotionally if I was left with no other recourse but to go No Contact with my own mother. It would literally smash my heart into a billion pieces.
The decision you have made regarding distancing her from your life, is so very brave and immensely difficult (imo) that I doubt I would be able to do it. I would probably stubbornly, unwisely grasp at those maternal strings in desperation.
Hoping, fervently praying, wishing she would miraculous change her behavior towards me into deep love and respect.
I don’t know what else to say except I’m here, reading and sending out to you good, positive, loving vibrations. **huggles**
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Healing Heart says:
Oh, Oxy, so sorry to hear of your encounter today! That sounds like such a whopping serving of awful feelings. Glad you are here with us where there is so much healthy love, and so much healthy love for you! You are a wonderful person – a human angel, and we are so blessed to have you with us, loving us and letting us love you! Our love and goodness is so much more powerful than their darkness – we can easily eclipse their darkness with our light. (((((HUGS))))))
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Gemini_Fairy says:
Seems like I’ve been missing a lot. I will be back with a story to share. I will say, as evidence that I haven’t been on for awhile that my new motto for this year is from one of my favorite singers – she goes by Nina! and it goes; “It’s a New Dawn, It’s A New Day, It’s a New Life for me and I’m feelin good!” And I say we all should. Thank you LF for the last 6 months it has helped me through a lot
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OxDrover says:
Thanks, guys!!! ((((loveFraud peeps))))) I went to bed and watched a show, couldn’t get into it…now just weeping and weeping….Janie, the “scales” finally fell from my eyes where my mother is concerned. She is so “trauma bonded” to the males in the family (the Ps) that I realize she would willingly do ANYTHING to see my P son out of prison and coming home to her, even if she knew it meant my death—she would “rationalize” it away some way. Mom was abused by her own brother (Uncle Monster) who was enabled by his own mother so now she enables my P son to hurt me like her mother enabled her brother to hurt her. Her mother KNEW that Uncle Monster was smothering my mother until she passed out and her “excuse” for not telling his father was that his father would spank the boy “and he might run away from home.” I am afraid my own mother’s rationalization would make almost as much sense.
Yes, it is difficult to NC a child of your own, and your own parents, no matter how either of them deserve it, no matter how much they have done to you. (or tried to) and I have seen the look of demonic rage and hatred on both their faces because I wouldn’t play their games and let them control me.
I’m not sure if it was the suprise of seeing her when I didn’t expect to, or her chitty-ass grin and her “ah, come on, don’t be like that.” Like I was a SULKY child that was mad cause I didn’t get chocolate milk.
I find myself even now wanting to give her the “benefit of the doubt”—maybe she IS SENILE and doesn’t know she was lying or had lied, or recall the time I caught her in a BALD FACED LIE, or the look of homicidal RAGE she looked at me with when I did.
Then I think back to all the times she lied to me, and when I caught her she gaslighted me and said “Oh, I didn’t say I wouldn’t do it, I said I had no PLANS to do it, and at that time I didn’t have.” At that time I even questioned my own sanity, because “Mom would never tell a bald faced lie”—but she did, and she did and she did! And she will and she will and she will! She rationalizes that my son C and I are crazy and being irrational and paranoid. Her poor baby grandson sitting there all alone in his lonely prison cell, well she has to take care of him cause his own mother and brother won’t, she’s all he’s got so she must take care of the poor baby.
It’s not like I don’t KNOW ALL THESE THINGS, but right now it isn’t logic and reason functioning, I am a little girl hiding in a dark closet and my mommie keeps opening the door for the monster to get in, and she won’t believe me when I tell her the monster is mean and dangerous, and she treats me like I don’t have any sense. PITY PARTY, WHINE AND CHEESE!!! I;m done! Back to freaking reality!
Thank you all for your support and kind words!!!! (((Hugs))))
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alohatraveler says:
Kathleen Hawk,
How awesome your response to Kerisee and to PleasedSocio pr whatever that was.
I read the posts just to see what the heck was going on. We have had a few people show up claiming they are a Sociopath. There is always something in the writing like its a manual… or it’s robotic or something. It’s hard to describe and I wouldn’t be able to recreate it but did anyone else pick up on that?
Bad man was kind of different. He was SUPER dramatic. His baseline was Borderline and I always toss in “sociopathic tendencies” but he was high drama. And he would swing all over the place… “You’re the BEST!” “You’re the WORST!”
Well, which one is you ding dong?! No wait… I am supposed to say, “Which one is it, Captain Whack-a-doo?” My friend made that up. I love it!
It’s great to have you here writing for us, Kathleen.
Aloha
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JaneSmith says:
Oxy,
Yes, I truly understand the heartache you’re dealing with right now.
Not making this about me, but if I was forced to relinquish my relationship with my mother because of her spiteful, illusory words and behavior I think being physcially stabbed in the heart would be much more preferable.
But you’ve really had no other choice, have you? You and your families’ safety and welfare is at stake. That’s some very serious contemplations and consequences to be concerned with.
For what it’s worth, I figuratively stand solidly beside you and support the right/righteous, self and sanity preserving decisions and choices you’ve made.
Be strong and faithful, my kind padawan!
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JaneSmith says:
Oops….you know what, Oxy?
I think you graduated from the padawan status years ago.
Let me restate my last sentence:
Be strong and be faithful, my companion Jedi Knight!!!
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sstiles54 says:
Oxy,
I am so sorry you had that chance encounter. No matter how strong we feel at the moment, those surprise run ins take you so off guard, all your bravado just jumps right out of your body. I felt the same way the one & only time(thank God) that I ran into my ex s. at wally world. It knocked me totally off center. I hope you know how highly you are held in esteem here, & that you have a lot of people praying for you & sending their love to you right now. You have more hugs & squeezes headed your way than a roll of Charmin!!! Hang tough, my friend, You have always been here for us, we are all here for you 10 fold! Love ya!!
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stormee says:
Aloha:
Captain Whack-a -Do!!!! I’m laughing my “head” off!!!! My daughter named my X-S “Carnie” in reference to Carnival Workers (he looks somewhat odd and has lots weird theories)…He is very dramatic and grandiose and talks compulsively…For a long time I just thought he had an undiagnosed case of bipolar disorder… I know what you mean about the self-proclaimed S on here…doesn’t sound genuine to me either…
OXY, I’m praying for you… Hope you have a MUCH better day today… You’re awesome!!!!
God Bless…
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peaceatlast says:
Hearing about the physical and mental response that Wise Oxy had with a chance encounter with her NP, helps me understand the shock and need to flight that I had when I encountered my EX after six months. The inner child triggers the body to be protective even before the mind kicks in. I was out the door before I could pull my usual “cool sophisticate” act.
In caring for our wonderful little(less than 7 pounds) guard dog (Maltese) this AM. I was wondering how NP are with pets. My EX had no regard or empathy for pets. I know that animal abuse is a sign of major problems. Want to know if others in this community have any accounts of how NP relate to pets since they have no ability to empathize with others. I am looking for early warning signs of NP. My Daddy used to say, “Get a dog. They are always glad to see you!” I love little Timm for his unwavering loyalty. Anyone new in our house has to earn his respect. There is lesson here from Timmy!
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Matt says:
peaceatlast:
Kids and dogs. They’ll give you the accurate vibe everytime.
Dogs. My ex-S used to proclaim how much he loved dogs. Then one day I watched him jam a sock over the head of a friend’s Yorkie puppy and laugh as the poor dog got confused. I almost strangled him. Maybe I should have — I would have saved myself months of grief.
Kids. My nieces and nephews steered a wide arc around S. Ditto his nieces and nephews. And he thought kids loved him. What was in his drinking water I’ll never know.
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kerisee04 says:
Thank you all for your posts and advice. I do appreciate Kathleen’s contribution especially.
I have a hard time finding ways of explaining myself well. When I get worked up, I generally come here and throw it away from me as hard as I can, and usually at those times, I’m not able to give the necessary details to help you guys understand what exactly is going on. I’m sorry for that.
My situation is difficult to understand to an outside person. To be honest, my husband and I couldn’t care less about what the ex does– except when the kids come back to us talking about all the things that happened over the last week. And let me be frank– she has at least 3 men in her back pocket at all times that the older children talk about (ages 6, 4, and 1 1/2). Yes, my stepson was molested by her, according to his therapist, and according to his actions. We have exhausted every legal effort in the last 2 years to try to get the kids, but the judge saw a different person when we went to court. We went to court 6 times. Now we are losing the house in march, going bankrupt, and lost two vehicles. My husband’s job changed, too, and we’re dealing with that.
As far as her family goes, my husband tries hard to maintain a good relationship with them, as they are very involved in the children’s lives. The ex has told them many lies about us that had them basically hating us– like, we make a lot of money and she’s destitute, so it looks like my husband left her out in the cold, even though he makes child support payments (and we share custody). She also told them that we refused to take my stepson after school on her weeks, which is partly true, except I’m gone picking up my sons from school at that time, so I can’t be home for him, and I don’t want to see her every day on her weeks when she comes to get him (that’s a contact issue). These are relatively minor, except that my husband respects her parents and knows that she has been lying to them in order to get money from them. He spoke with them last night and really communicated a lot to them about the truth of our situation, and they’re on good terms again. They still do want to know if they’re being lied to by her.
I think I should leave out the religious stuff, because I really don’t want to stir up controversy, and everybody has their own views on it, which everybody is entitled to.
I’ve taken many of your comments to heart, and have been practicing them as well. It’s very hard to move on when contact is necessary, though. Like a previous poster (Matt, I think) said, “You’re in bed with them for 18 years.” So true…
The only other thing I can add is that every time she thinks she’s so hard to get over, my hackles go up. I don’t know if it’s rational, probably not, but I can’t help my instant reaction to her grandiose view of herself and her perceived relationship with my husband. So I come here and let the venom loose, which I will be more careful to control next time. Sorry, folks, you get the worst of me.
Oxy, I’m so sorry you’ve had old wounds reopened. But I admire your stand you took. It must have been hard! Take care of yourself and remember all the kind words you’ve shared with people apply to you, too.
Thanks, all.
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OxDrover says:
Thanks, guys! Today is a NEW DAY! I got a good night’s sleep last night (I did take an Rx sleep aid which I usually don’t) but got 8 1/2 good hours of solid sleep. My little inner baby “Oxy” feels better today and I am nurturing her. Thanks so much for all the kudos and hugs and most of all PRAYERS.
Kerisee, I do agree with Kathy and the others, you are big time involved in the TRIANGLE, and I have been involved in it as well with the personality disordered people. There is NO WAY to stop it unless you QUIT PLAYING ENTIRELY, which means NO REACTION. Yesterday, when I was suddenly confronted with my mother, I too TOOK A CHAIR ON THE TRIANGLE….just instinctively, I guess since that was the way I had always functioned…but now I am back to my “new normal” and realize I cannot PLAY THAT GAME.
Sure, I WANT TO still, I went through all the emotions of being in that triangle yesterday and they were PAINFUL. I wanted to strike out at her, I wanted to shout at her, I wanted….I wanted….but I didn’t ACT. As long as I was either persecutor, rescuer, or victim….I was PLAYING.
I realize that you want to RESCUE the children from her, and I can’t say as I blame you, but the only way you can HELP THEM (NOT rescue) is to quit playing her game. Quit triangling into her parents etc. and I think your husband is also in the triangle.
Your post of what she said, etc shows that you are focusing on the MINUTE DETAILS, and you need to start seeing the BIGGER PICTURE. It is only when we quit focusing on DETAILS and start focusing on the BIGGER PICTURE that we can see that the details don’t really matter, the he said/she said, or he did/she did are immaterial completely. SHE WILL NEVER QUIT TRYING TO BRING YOU BACK INTO THE TRIANGLE. SHE WILL NEVER QUIT USING THE KIDS TO KEEP YOU HOOKED INTO THE TRIANGLE.
You may even NOT be able to help them. I realize that is a big disappointment, but you can only do what is POSSIBLE, not the impossible, and some situations ARE IMPOSSIBLE for a good or “positive” outcome. That is very painful if you love someone and they are being abused by someone else and you cannot stop it. That is a difficult thing to accept. BUT YOU MUST ACCEPT IT in order to (1) have some peace yourself (2) stop the drama in YOUR LIFE and (3) possibly keep your marriage together.
As for the “disfellowshipping” by the church, I think I understand a bit about that from a religious point of view. Very few churches actually do this in a “healthy” way—some may avoid it entirely, thinking that if they disfellowship someone they are pushing them away from God, and some do it with a vengence, and some in a tirangling way themselves and as soon as the “sinner” says a very sincere “I’m sorry” they immediately restore them to fellowship and trust…..WRONG.
Read the story of Joseph, and how he had forgiven his brothers, yet he did NOT TRUST THEM until he had tested them to see what kind of men they had become in the years since he had last seen them. He did not upon recognizing them in Egypt when they came to buy corn immediately say “Hey, guys! It’s me, your brother.” He tested them first.
My mother will never be “disfellowshipped” by her church because they will NEVER BELIEVE she is anything but a saint, they don’t know that she is an unrepentent LIAR. THEY WOULD NEVER DISFELLOWSHIP HER, or believe a thing my son and others would testify to. I had hoped that I might get her to stop sending money to my psychopathic son, but I realized after yesterday it is A WASTE OF TIME to go to the church, or to even threaten her with it….I am disappointed that I can’t even use that to stop her, but it does make clear to me that it is a waste of time to even try.
The point (as stated in the Bible) in “disfellowshipping” (actually it is a description of No Contact) is to bring them back around to a good way of living, but, BUT if they are so set in their bad behavior or have no remorse (il.e. they are personality disordered) even the GROUP should not associate with them, and therefore those PDs cannot harm the group itself. It makes sense to me. I don’t think it is a bad thing at all. WE know we have to stop associating with a P, and in groups Ps do nothing but cause problems….any healthy group should disassociate from a disruptive person. Just as WE must disassociate from a personality disordered person (NC) this is a group NC for a specific purpose–to preserve the group, and if the person is not PD, they may see the “error of their ways” and return to the group in a non-disruptive way.
I do think though, that you and your husband must disassociate with the X to the extent possible. YOUR husband is not obligated to pick the kids up on “her” weeks, that’s what she is supposed to do. On her weeks SHE is responsible for the kids. On your weeks your husband is responsible for the kids. That is SETTING A BOUNDARY. A reasonable boundary.
Her weeks, her responsibility.
His weeks, his responsibility.
No big deal to comprehend that.
I think you should move to another congregation.
I think your husband should STOP talking about the X to her parents (that is triangling) I don’t think he should necessarily NC them, but simply state that he will no longer discuss his X’s behavior with her parents. PERIOD. NONE. ZIP ZERO discussion.
I would also suggest that you seek marriage counseling for you and your husband and/or family counseling for all of you, including the kids. I don’t doubt that you have a rough row to hoe, but looking at the BIG PICTURE rather than the details I think will help you make the best of a bad situation. (((((hugs)))) and prayers!
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JaneSmith says:
Oxy,
So relieved to read you here and to see you’re recovering. You’ve had more than your fair share of tragedies in your life and I bet you just want some breathing room and peace from all the painful experiences. I know I would.
You rock, doll!!
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JaneSmith says:
Kathleen,
Kinda late responding to your post regarding William Gibson, but I thought it was cute and witty.
I thoroughly enjoy his writing style/content also. I still have my copy of “Neuromancer” which I read years ago. It’s falling apart, pages are yellow but I can’t seem to either throw it in the garbage, or trade it in at the resale book shop.
I’ve never thrown a book in the trash bin, but I’ve thrown a few against the wall, saying…”What was I thinking picking this piece of crap off the shelf?!”
From what I gather, Gibson is the author who created the new genre, cyberpunk. He also coined the phrase…cyberspace. Pretty cool, huh? But you probably already new this tidbit info since you’re a fan of his.
I think he’s an alien, sent to Earth to share his futuristic technologies and brilliant lingo. But I could be wrong. It’s happened on occasion.
Ok, I’ve strolled off the worn beaten path of LF subject matter and stumbled into a doorway of a parallel universe where aproned Panda Bear baristas sell marmalade lattes and cotton candy cookies.
**listening to The Beatles’…Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. No, I’m not partaking of any mind altering chemicals. Only coffee. Hot, good coffee**
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OxDrover says:
Dear Janie,
Thanks for your sweet affirmation!! It means more than you can possibly know.
After I logged off last night I was reading in the Psalms of David, Chapter 27:10 KJV, and David said “when my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up.”
I meditated on that verse and that chapter, in which David is thanking God for keeping him safe from danger, and in time of trouble for “hiding me in your pavilions.”
As I thought about it all, I realized that the “plan” I had for hopefully getting my mother to stop sending the money to my son (by having some friends who are members of her church confront her about her lies.) I realized that she would LIE TO THEM, and that it would not work. I just have to accept it, give up any hope of stopping her from sending money to my P son and when she passes away and he gets his “inheritance” from her (which could be in the range of several hundred thousand dollars) that I will have to sell the farm and move some where else so he can’t find me. It isn’t something I want to do, moving is always a hassle, and when you have a farm full of stock and “stuff” it is an even bigger hassle, but the farm and airport and 3 houses should bring enough to buy us another place, and we can be safe.
The thought of moving away from here to another piece of dirt is no longer trauma to me, even though I am “attached” to this place (which has been in our family for generations, since 1833) I realize it is NOT SACRED. My sons feel the same and are in agreement, so when mom passes away we will sell out and move, if the Lord is willing that I should out live her and that comes to pass. If not, my sons can rent the place and houses and still move away and be safe (though they cannot sell the place if I were to die before my mom does)
We will as individuals and as a “family” do whatever is necessary.
So I am looking at the POSITIVE aspect of seeing that the encounter yesterday, though painful for a few hours, did give me a “message” that I NEEDED TO KNOW. There is NOTHING that I can do that will stop her from sending money to my enemy. Nothing I can do at all, so I must ACCEPT what is REALITY. “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.” (quote from an article here, can’t remember which one).
In a way I feel more “free” today than I did before the encounter yesterday, because I REALIZE I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH. There is NO wiggle room to try to change what is carved in the STONE OF HER HEART.
In fact, what pissed me off yesterday, her attempt to insinuate that I was being like a petulant child, being “ugly” (that’s her word and she loves it!) because I didn’t get chocolate instead of white milk. That my concerns, my fears, etc were so insignificant, so illogical, and that she would take the high road and “forgive” me, if only I would quit acting so “ugly.” In other words “Let’s just pretend that none of this ever happened” (at least until I get mad at you again for defying me in any way, and then I will hit you with it again!)
How can you “reason” with that? Of course you can’t! Silly me for hoping that somehow I could influence it and stop her sending money to him…
Psalms 28:6-7 KJV
Blessed be the Lord, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.
I’m not skipping and clicking my heels today, sort of “in neutral” but starting to get my head on straight and I think the feeling sort of “in neutral” is more or less the feeling you get after a big adreneline rush (boy I had one yesterday) sort of a bit wrung out. But I am calm and peaceful in spite of that. The weather has turned bitterly cold here and will be down in the teens tonight so my sons are working on getting ready for the big freeze tonight and we will delay the cow butchering until the weather is right (if it is too cold the meat freezes rather than chills which is what you need.) Since I am not completely energetic yet, it is a good thing to wait until my energy level goes back up anyway.
“Rationing” energy is something I am learning to do, and not to depete my reserves which are still somewhat “shallow” or “small” but ARE growing. The encounter yesterday in the past would have put me under the floor, sucking my thumb for days or weeks, but I have enough energy in reserve to come back much more quickly than previously.
Keeping a concept of “energy” (which is neither physical OR mental, but both) in mind has helped me to conserve my energy resources and has helped me in the recovery and healing because I am not totally depleted like I was at one point for a long time.
Thanks, Janie, and hugs back to ya!!!!
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Matt says:
Kerisee04:
You’re doing a fine job of explaining what is going on. Also, you need to vent, and you’re in the right place to vent.
I can’t remember what the exact list of life’s biggest stressors ism but I seem to recall that (a) job loss, (b) moving, (c) divorce, (d) financial reverses and (e) death pretty much headed the list. At this moment between your husband’s losing his job, moving because of losing your house, financial reverses because of the bankruptcy and what is more-or-less the on-going divorce (divorce finished, custody issues unending) you’re pretty much getting hit full-force.
Except for the custody issues, I was pretty much in your shoes, a dozen years ago. I had come out and was going through a nasty divorce, had to move, and suffered severe financial reverses because I was being sued right-and-left because I had guaranteed loans for a conman brother. Not exactly a day at the beach.
In retrospect I am still amazed that I survived all that. I learned two things: (a) that I’m an incredibly strong person and (b) you can replace things, but not people.
As bleak as things look now, you still have your family. You will be able to rebuild. You have to believe that.
However, I still think you and your husband need to re-examine your relationship — not only with his ex-S, but with her family. You mentioned in your last post that your ex-inlaws are very involved in his childrens’ lives and that your husband respects his ex-inlaws and feels the need to inform them that their daughter is lying to them.
I agree that staying on good terms with the ex-inlaws for the sake of his children is extremely important. The kids can’t be made to feel that they are being forced to take sides.
And I can understand your husband’s respecting your inlaws. I still have tremendous affection and respect for my ex-S’s family.
When I was involved with S, I saw first hand how he was playing them all. And much as it pained me after my relationship with S ended, I had to step out of the picture. His family is his family. Punto.
I had to force myself to realize that I couldn’t protect S’s family from him. More to the point, I had to acknowledge that they have a pretty good idea of what S is all about, even if they don’t formerly call him a sociopath. Bottom line, it was not my place to get involved.
Similarly, it is not your husband’s place to play detective for his ex-inlaws. Any odds you want to give me, I’ll cover, that your husband’s ex-wife’s family knows what she is all about. But, it is obvious to me that they don’t want to cut her out of their lives or cut her off financially. I’m pretty sure that she’s used the threat of them never seeing her kids again.
Bottom line: Stay on good terms with your husband’s ex-inlaws for the kids’ sake. Stop throwing gasoline on the sociopathic fire for the kids sake. And for your sake. You don’t need the stress. The kids don’t need the stress. And your husband’s ex-inlaws don’t need the stress.
Also, be honest with yourself. Your husband’s ex-S IS DRIVING YOU CRAZY. Her behavior would drive any sane person crazy. You’re not doing yourself any favors by pretending otherwise.
We all ended up on this site because we realized we were being driven insane by the sociopaths in our lives. That’s why it’s called “crazy-making behavior”. The worst thing you can do to yourself, in the midst of everything going on in your life, is denying your feelings.
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Tood says:
Let me add my voice to the chorus. Yes, there comes a time when you must accept your powerlessness over others. You are powerless to change the S/P and you might be powerless to help other victims who are either ignorant of what they are dealing with, or still in the fog.
My ex had an aged mother who lived alone in an isolated place in the country. She could no longer drive and had to rely on others for all her basic needs. I was very close to her; in fact, she was more like a mother to me than my own mother.
After my divorce, I discovered that not only was my ex taking all her money (expected), but he was also leaving her alone for long periods of time without food or medical attention (a jolt to me at the time). I began to do her shopping for her, and I’d call her or see her every day. I took her to the doctor. I made sure she took her medicine. Eventually, my ex ran into a rough patch and was forced to move in with his mother. Obviously I could no longer take care of her. She went back to near starvation.
I turned the case in to the state’s welfare agency. The situation was investigated and my ex-mother-in-law was left in the hands of her P son, who eventually killed her off, quite legally, through neglect.
The S/P did this through his own uncanny ability to lie. But he had help from the victim herself, who LIED to the authorities and SWORE that her son took great care of her. I was powerless to help her because she could not free herself of the delusion that her son was a GOOD SON, even as he starved her.
So, Kerisee, what we are saying is that SOMETIMES you must dust off your sandals and move on. To do otherwise is to endanger your own recovery and your own sanity.
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keeping_faith says:
Oxy,
I’ve just been catching upon the last few days away from lovefraud. I’m sorry about what has happened. You have been so supportive these last few months to me since I have been posting here. You deserve the same.
This experience I had with the S/P I can honestly say was my first with anyone so disordered. We all have some dysfunction in our families but NEVER have I seen it to that extent or experienced this kind of emotional pain. In your case, it seems you have gone through this and been on this tragic roller coaster your whole life.
I do, however, understand the disappointment associated with unreliable people. I realize this is an understatement as it relates to your mother or any parent for that matter. I am finding, (and maybe you have too) that as hurtful as it is to not be able to rely on the words and actions of the people who should love you the most….. that there is a certain independence in that reliance on yourself. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to NOT ever trust or believe or not rely on people. I jsut don’t want to live my life second guessing and feeling anxious and questioning motives and as you now well…… that’s the easy part of life with a S/P.
Oxy, I’m sorry for what you have been through and especially recently. You seem so strong and I think I am too. Think of all the people who may have lived through all that you have. How many can truly survive, yet live to help others as it seems you do. And here you are back giving good advice to others……… Thanks Oxy. You go girl !!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear KF,
Thank you so much for that affirmation! I am doing so much much better today! At least these sudden unexpected things doing throw me into a tail spin that lasts for days or weeks. I do think though that the SUDDENESS of it all is what makes it so hurtful.
I remember 6 or 8 months ago when my X P-BF showed up suddenly at a local auction I frequent on Saturday nights, which is so FAR out of his usual stomping range (350 miles to the south of me) that it just blew me out of the water by the unexpectedness of him showing up. I did realize though that my mom usually shops that store on a MONDAY, and I shoud have expected to run into her that day about that time, and I didn’t expect it. In the future, will avoid going to town on a monday. Or maybe will go to the next closest town where there would be NO chance of running into her accidently.
And if I ever do runn into her accidently again, I will just keep on walking–which is what I should have done this time and didn’t have the presence of mind to do. I just let her trigger my buttons. I will do better next time if it happens again.
You guys don’t know how much I appreciate the support. (((hugs))))
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Wini says:
Tood: I agree with you about “real” people can’t see the pschopath behind the mask. I am very good at spotting them, yet could not/did not see it in my own fiance. What an act he put on … he deserves the academy award.
It’s amazing what GREED and selfishness (hand in hand) can do to these personalities. I’m sure many elderly parents were done in by the neglect of their masked off springs … as well as loving spouses.
I’m sure at least twice that I now realize … my ex slipped something in my drink. First time was within 6 months of dating him. I thought I came down with the flue. I was out cold from mid Saturday afternoon … until somewhat coherent on Thursday, then I was definitely up early evening on Friday. My EX called in to work all week, and I think I made the last call in on Friday. Last time I think he slipped something in my drink was the night before he left. We were in the hot tub and he brought me out a small glass of wine. I hate wine and he knows it. Anyway, he was always trying to get me used to wine and I just get headaches … but, I would take a sip of whatever wine he had … and I still didn’t like it. Anyway, we were in the hot tub the night before he left. What was strange is that he got out of the hot tub before me. It was usually the other way around. I’d get out and leave him to soak for another hour or so. Anyway, about 20 minutes after he left, I couldn’t even sit up. I tried and tried to get out of the hot tub and I was so dizzy. I finally flopped myself over the top and fell over the side. I’m laying on the floor to the deck and I can’t get up. I’m yelling for my EX to help me, but thought he couldn’t hear me. So, I stayed on the floor of the deck for I don’t know how long … then some how stumbled into the house. I had to hold the walls … everything was spinning. I usually don’t drink more than 2 drinks because I like to be in control. But, this nite … after a small orange juice sized glass … 1/2 full … I couldn’t even help myself. So, I finally get off the deck, bubbled in through the back door … bubbled into the downstairs bathroom … stayed in their for a while … on my hands and knees … I was so dizzy. Finally, I got up and bumbled upstairs into the upstairs bathroom. I’m screaming for my fiance to come help me. He comes into the bathroom and couldn’t believe me (so I thought he was concerned).
He finally helps me into the bedroom … where he layed me on the bed … and I couldn’t move. That’s the night he ransacked my house. Middle of the morning I wake up and he’s taking my appliances with him … I tell him to put them back, he tells me that he will bring them back in September.
Stupid me. I believed him. That was May 1 … I believed him until the middle of November, 2006 (same year). That’s how good a con he was.
I didn’t know the truth until I viewed all the paperwork he left behind. I never saw the truth of him under the mask … but, I did see the truth in paperwork versus his lies.
Peace.
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Matt says:
keeping_faith:
“…the disappointment associated with unreliable people”. My parents were the masters of promising me anything in the moment to manipulat me into doing what they wanted, and then never following through.
To say that created massive trust issues in me is the understatement of the century. Actually, since we’re only 9 years into this century, make that the last 2 centuries.
I think that’s one of the reasons that makes the who experience with my S so painful. I finally decided to trust someone and ended up trusting a socipath. He nearly obliterated my ability to trust and I suspect it is going to take a long time to regain it.
OxDrover:
I have nothing to base this on, but my gut is telling me that part of what has you so upset is that your mother manipulated you in public.
My mother is a master presenting herself as the loving mother. I used to let it get to me. Then I finally realized I was never going to change her and decided that I was no longer going to let her get to me.
Now when I encounter her I call it “giving a performance.” Giving a performance (in public) is something we all do on some level everyday. When I have to deal with my mother, I give her the air-kiss, etc. And I talk for hours with her — about absolutely nothing. She is so self-absorbed she doesn’t even realize it.
There is a book out there which has to be 20 years old or so. It’s called “The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense”. It contains a whole arsenal of what I call non-answers to questions, and means of escalating the defense if necessary.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Matt,
Your mother sounds like a master manipulator and you obviously have a good grasp of her and handle the situation well. I am glad for you, for SURE!!! LOL
The emotional hurts and the betrayals with mine preclude any contact with mine. I wish I could do what you do with yours, but my mother damned near got me killed, and is in the process of putting my life in danger again by financiing my incarcerated son (cold blooded, pre meditated murder for revenge) She has lied to me while pretending to be this pious Christian who uses her “religion,” or rather I should say pretense of one, to justify her hypocritical behavior. If it all wasn’t true it would be a big JOKE.
I think I could have a relationship with her if she was just a bossy witch, or mild drama but the drama on the level that it is is just more than I can tolerate.
I’m actually glad (at least after the fact) that I did run into her yesterday, because though it was a painful few hours, it did solidify that there is no emotional blackmail, no way in heck I can get her to stop sending money to my P son. No promise will be kept for long. She is deceitful and controlling and “oppositionally defiant”–if I wanted her to go north, she would go south, and vice versa.
She is so trauma bonded to the male psychopaths in the family that she would do ANYTHING to protect them and to sucor them.
Manipulating me in public, actually, didn’t bother me at all. I am not “up tight” about the “in public”–she is actually the one that is uptight about “public image.” I have had the “what would the neighbors think?” crammed down my throat for so long that I actually don’t give a rat’s behind about what my neighbors think. The ones that know me well don’t believe it all (the smear campaign) and the ones that do believe her are not important in my life so I just really don’t care. Fortunately, I live in such a remote area and my home is deeply hidden by a dense hedge of trees (and is quite far off the public roads) that no one can tell if I am here or not. I’m retired and so can be very selective about who I associate with and I am. The neighbors that I care about have been quite supportive (even spied on what was going on at my mom’s house with the Trojan HOrse Psychopath after I fled my home, after I realized he was out to kill me and why.) The neighbors were the ones that informed me that as soon as my older son left for work, the TH-P hot footed it from my mom’s house to my son’s house every day..that was the first tip off that my mother’s “live in caregiver” was spending significant time with my son’s wife.
Yes, I do realize now that there is NOTHING I can ever do to stop her doing what she is doing. I just have to leave it up to God to manage the situation. I ADMIT THAT I AM POWERLESS in this situation. Accepting that is sometimes difficult, but I find that as I am more able to do that, and to just quit butting my head into the stone wall and jousting at windmills, things work out in the end. When I ‘retired” from the battle field before, and they didn’t have a victim to unite against, they ended up self destructing. My mom is 79, be 80 in the spring, and frankly she couold live for another 10 yrs, or another 1 or 2. It wouldn’t supriise me if she hung on by force of sheer will until January 2011, when my son comes back up for parole. I figure when (if) he doesn’t get it, she will very quickly decide to die. In my years of working with the elderly in hospitals, rehabs and nursing homes, I have seen people hold on to life for months or years with grim determination until some event that they were waiting for took place and then peacefully passed away. She is so intent on him coming home to live with her that I think that might be the case. Our faily history is age 80-83 as the age of death. For four generations that I know of it has held completely steady at those ages. But I imagine she will leave him “well fixed” financially when she dies so that will be the time for me to sell the farm and move on. For a long time that would have been unthinkable, but now that “spell” is broken, and the farm is now just another piece of real estate, not any longer “sacred.”
Thanks for the book referral, I will check amazon for it. They usually have about anything you can name.
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keeping_faith says:
Matt,
The reliability issue, I have learned, is a BIG one for me. I was married for 22 years to a guy who was unreliable, not in small ways, but BIG ways. We lived our life planning how things were going to be until it was his turn to put out and keep his word and he basically gave me the finger and decided HE was changing the plan. It benefited him of course but not me. I have always worked at his demand and basically got to the point where I was earning more than he. he liked that. Then he told me he would never support me financially or otherwise. The lan was that I was quitting my job and starting my own consulting firm in the years my kids would be in HS. Didn’t work that way so I told him to get out. Here’s the kicker: he met a hairdresser on line and as soon as she moved in with him she quit her job. (I believe in karma now).
My parents were of very meager means and I went to college and earned a Masters degree despite the fact that my parents wanted me to get married right out of high school. I have always relied on ME. i paid my own way since I was 13. Buying my own close, tuition etc…..
I have read some of your posts and I did not experience the kidn of abuse you did and I am so sorry these things happened. Despite what has happened to us with these S/P idiots, you seem successful in your own right and should be poud of that. I think we lose trust but we also want SO BADLY to have someone in our lives to be a partner to us as we have the capability of being to others and it’s disappointing when it doesn’t work out.
What i have found through this exerience is that I have friends who are/were very supportive and defensive of me. I have some who RAN from me when I needed them the most. I have come to appreciate those friendships more than I would have if this had not happened. One friend in particular, who lives with his partner, who also came from an abusive family, who I CAN RELY ON and he knows the same of me. THAT is a friendship that will last forever and I would do anything for him.
We will trust again, you and I, but we won’t take the pain and bad behavior as we did before. We will be cautiously optomistic ! That’s what I hope for us both.
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peaceatlast says:
Ms. Faith……………..
Enjoyed hearing about the life of another self sufficient boot strapper. We could be sisters.
I often wonder why I have found and accepted less than repsonsible men? A point to ponder…..But it won’t happen AGAIN!
Narrisstic people seem to feel they are entitled to be taken care of. That applies to both men and women. I know so many women who are leery of men who are looking for a meal ticket. I know of very few women who are seeking this!
I now know that I am seeking a responsible partner and loving person. Must not settle for less. I think the depression really hits when you realize that you have settled. The good news is that you don’t have to stay on that path.
Thank you for these thoughts that give a much needed perspective on how I need to be working my mind. It all starts in the Mind.
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keeping_faith says:
peaceatlast,
I absolutely LOVE that you called me a boot strapper. what a huge compliment.
I think the stress and shock still to this day come from the way I see him as he is and lives and behaves. he portrayed himself so completely differently to me.
and thank you for reminding me that it does all start in the mind and I need to get a grip on my own thoughts and memories of him and start tossing them aside as yesterdays news !!
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Matt says:
keeping_faith and peaceatlast:
The reliability issue is HUGE with me. The problem is, every time I would get involved with someone who was less than reliable, I would jump in and take over their share of the load, rather than telling them to shape up or ship out.
For awhile I wondered of my need for reliability was masking a need for control. Then I finally realized that I had a right to ask for the same thing I was givining.
My ex-S had such a sense of entitlement. Prior to me he had 2 long-term-relationships which lasted 8 years each. I know for a fact he bled each of them financially.
Hell, I know for a fact he still continues to bleed his second-ex. The poor fool continues to pay for his storage bin and hell only knows what else — he’s still determined to “win back” my ex-S. Used to drive me crazy. Now I see that HE WAS DRIVEN CRAZY by S.
S is now staring 40 in the face. His looks are gone. He’s an ex-con. His career is going nowhere. He’s back on cocaine or meth. The only reason he’s not sleeping on a park bench is because his employer stepped in and paid 7 months back rent after I finally said no and drove him off.
Don’t ask me why, but today I had the wierdest thought — if S doesn’t end up back in prison, I see another Andrew Kunanen the one who killed Gianni Versace and all those others in a cross-country killing spree) in the making. I think S iss going to shortly wake up, realize that his days as a boy-toy are behind him, realize the opportunities that he’s squandered and relize that his odds of finding a sugar daddy to support him are over. Don’t want to be around when that happens, thank you kindly.
I thought I found a caring, responsible and loving partner. Instead I found a human piranha. However, I have finally decided it’s time I want the best for myself and not settle for less. Or, to put it another way, if I’m done with remodelling projects.
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henry says:
Matt – I can relate with the control issue. I think my X wanted me to be in control of everything, finances, decision’s, everything. He even gave me his money and said you take care of thing’s. As long as all his need’s were met, he controled me by putting me in control, if that makes any sense. And when he became bored with me and was ready for greener pasture’s all the problem’s we had had fell on my shoulder’s. They have it all planned from the beginning – ride this wave as long as it’s good and when it isn’t they just move on to the next. Meanwhile we are turning ourselves inside out with all the responsibility of taking care of them. I sure wish I had not of driven by his place of work the other nite, it has opened some wound’s, but only have myself to blame. I agree with you Matt – no more project’s.
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Matt says:
Henry:
Isn’t it strange how sociopaths use OUR money to CONTROL us?
I shelled out more and more and got less and less. I realized today that this coming weekend is a long weekend and remembered back to last year when I decided to treat S to a weekend out of town. Why I was so hot to do this after he had tanked our New Year’s holiday out of town (which I of course paid for) I haven’t a clue.
In any case I remember how he already had me so crazy that I actually checked his wallet. And of course I got caught. The fact that I chose to ignore that I found something incriminating makes me now wonder why I didn’t get rid of him then because obviously I couldn’t trust him. In any case, he made me pay. Dearly.
I now realize that 2 weeks later when he hit me up for the first “loan” to help pay his rent that he had it all planned out. Get me hooked, drive me crazy, and keep me grovelling for the so-called pleasure of his company. I cringe with humiliation when I think back on how desperate I was to keep him in my life.
I was deleting emails today and stumbled across one from him — perfectly timed 3 days before I was taking him to Greece. The landlord was going to carry out the eviction (he was behind 5 months then) the day we were leaving. And the way he worded it “I’m going to need your HELP again.”
Help. Something I always gave freely. Not only to him, but to others.
That was the first time I said no. And that was the trip from hell. I’ll give him credit — he tried his damndest to get that money out of me — the day he was locked out he tried to get 10 grand out of me.
My policy now is no more help. Financial or otherwise, unless I see the asker has made a real effort to resolve his problem first.
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keeping_faith says:
Matt,
It’s so odd that you talked about the cross country killing spree. I had so much drama with his 25 yr old daughter and all she could do is berate him constantly and tell him she hated me. Then physically hang on him and kiss him like a four year old. I met the girl three times and the third time she would not look at, acknowledge, or speak to me. I recall thinking that she could potentially be like the astronaut that drove thousands of miles to kill the woman that her boyfriend was seeing.
The whole thing was f’d up and the whole family is a mess. Why i thought that might even be half way ok or normal is beyond me and I think it’s best behind me.
Very early on in my relationship with him, a very good friend, who had been stalked by a sociopath boyfriend, who eventually stabbed her several times, had asked me if I liked what I saw in his daughters after the first meeting. I remember thinking well his oldest is in law school and seems smart with her pink hair and piercings…..but she could not establish eye contact and she was very socially inappropriate. She called her father five times per day. He paid he over a thousand a month to survive and still she needed much more to live every month. (parking tickets, unpaid light bills, cell bills etc…..)…… then I told her how he kept discarding me and she said….”Look up information regarding anti-social personality disorder. I think this is what you are dealing with.” I would have saved myself almost a full year if I had listened to her then. In fact I recall him telling me his daughter doesn’t have a “social filter” and I said that there is no such thing, but it might be anti social disorder……well apparently he had been told this before…… It was just another big red flag that I dismissed.
I was lucky in that I wasted some money but didn’t lose thousands on him. But Matt, I think in the end some people have bad things happen to them and some people get what they deserve. My XS?P is now living in the house we built, which he can’t afford, with his x stripper girlfriend and her criminal brother and he was just fired form his job. Again, I don’t wish bad things on people but sometimes the result of your behavior comes back to haunt you. As one of my friend’s said. it couldn’t happen to a nicer guy !!
Thanks for responding. You are right. Time to focus on me and get my life jump started. With that said, I had a great meeting with my boss today. I had an excellent performance review. I got a hefty increase in pay, which is unheard of right now in my organization. ANd I have a good opportunity for an even better job in a new location. What could be better than a fresh start in a new location away from his sorry ass? Right? Thanks for bearing with my ridiculous stories…..true as they are.
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henry says:
Matt – Where do I even begin with this? Your talking Greece – 10 grand – helping him out financially. My situation is so different than your’s and many here. I am a self employed landscaper, I support my self, I own my home and am making pymt’s on my truck. My X worked at a casino for little more than 10 bucks and hour when I met him. I live out in the country on a small acerage. My X was an aquaintance that lived about 5 miles from me, he was in an (abusive) relationship of 6 years and had me convinced his partner was the (evil) one. Well I enjoyed the occasional company and companionship but there were never any sparks with my X. Well one nite X shows up on foot at my door step all drunk and ruffed up, says his partner beat him up and kicked him out. Well I say ‘you can stay here awhile until you figure out what your gonna do’ that was my first mistake. I ain’t braggin but I have no problem gettin laid or hooking up, but X was so pityful and had no one and nothing – not even a vehicle – so I start driving him to work – picking him up hoping that soon he will figure something out. Well he stay’s 3 weeks and one day he tell’s me his going back to the (evil) partner. I say ok – glad I could help. I do kinda miss him (alot) but except the fact that he is gone – hell we had never even kissed at this point. Two weeks go by and he calls me late one nite, the (evil) partner has kicked him out again and my X is hiding in a ditch and could I come get him? Mistake number 20 at this point. Well here I am with a homeless pityful lanky cowboy, that obviously needs a helping hand. But this is where it went wrong – he says you know ‘your a real sweetheart’ and your the kind of guy I have dreamed of all my life. Yep I am hooked – picked my dream man up out of a bar ditch. What really hurt’s is my X never loved me – hell he really never even liked me, until he was homeless. So for the first year he is very little help financially or otherwise. Out of sheer exhaustion I offer to help him get a vehicle. For some reason he neglected to tell me he had no DL. So after weeks of living a life that I never thought I would I kicked him out and took back the vehicle. One week goes by and he shows up at my house crying and sobbing at what a mistake he has made and he does not want to lose me, I say hey – this is not what I want – well he takes a razor and cut’s his wrist (because I dont believe he loves me) – I call his estranged mother and tell her I cant handle him and she says “Oh he can’t come here he is a Booger” I give it one more try and he gives me all his money every month – meanwhile he’s turning tricks in my house while I am at work and it seems to go from bad to worse. After almost 3 years of this I am just a shell of who I was, so confused, so convinced he is the one, but I cant function anymore because of the stress, anxiety etc etc. He meets a new man and on his way out the door he looks at me and say’s ( I have been miserable ever since I came here ). Yeah I beat myself up all the time for being such an idiot. But this has been a life lesson, a very tuff one , to say I am embarrased and humiliated is an understatement. And even to this day I miss that mirror, that illusion, but finally I can look at my own reflection in the mirror and say ” Hey I am a good guy” I just got in the path of a user. I dunno if he is a socio or a borderline or what, he is a mess, I hope he is Ok, I don’t want to see him or know anything about him, but I still look over my shoulder and keep my doors locked . Call me a sugar daddy if you want because he did leave here better off then when he arrived, but I never knew a stranger could just walk into my life and take over the way he did.
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OxDrover says:
DEar Henry,
“A stranger?”—they are STRANGERS even if they came out of your loins! Or if you came out of theirs…they are stranger than anything I have ever thought existed that resenbled a human being.
The missing piece in them makes them totally strange to us.
I know that your mother and Matt’s mother and mine were hatched in the same incubator, so there is a common denominator there for sure. We were taught early on that this “strangeness” is what we should expect and that it is “normal” and somehow we bought that for a while at least.
We were willing to SHARE everything we had with them. It doesn’t matter if it is a penthouse apartment in NY or a tent on the railroad right of way, we shared EVERYTHING we had with them. But that wasn’t enough, they wanted it all….just not us along with it.
Henry, you ARE a “good guy” and so is Matt and I am a good person as well, but being “good” in our cases and willing to share made us patsies for users, but WE WILL NEVER BE PATSIES AGAIN. It isn’t about money it is about their greed for something they didnt’ earn, it is about their feelings of entitlement to something from someone else.
Like Matt pointed out, they are getting to where they are no longer “desirable” or boyish, and there will come a time when they wind up with nothing, turning tricks in alleys for cigarettes and beer or sleeping at the wino shelter, and in the case of my son, being the old broken convict with all his teeth rotted out and his joints arthritic and crippled from fights.
“What goes round, comes round.” They will run out of victims and become victims themselves. Their slide downhill will accelerate rapidly as they age and their bodies deteriorate and victims are no longer willing to pay for their company.
I would rather be US than one of them. (((hugs to you both))))
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greenfern says:
“But in someone nonexploitative (someone, say, with Asperger’s Syndrome), empathy will not be needed for its deterrent effect. However, in someone inclined to exploitation, lack of empathy will be a missing deterrent in a situation where deterrence is urgent.”
The sociopath I was with self-diagnosed himself as having Asperger’s . That is laughable. He wishes he had Asperger’s; it was his way of deceiving again, hiding his true self.
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justabouthealed says:
OxDrover: The P who hurt me is a mega-millionaire so all I can console myself with is that he does feel empty inside and he does suffer envy and depression, and he will never know true love. But there will always be someone to kiss his ass, including his kids, who will be thinking of the will.
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awakening says:
does anyone known if in can recover a comment i just wrote and accidentally deleted? been working on it for hours i am soooooo bummed. hard for me to get to the core of my issue’s and i finally feel like i did it and while making corrections, it deleted. agh!!!!!!!! i have a mac anyone know if i can recover it somehow???????
thanks
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Matt says:
awakening:
That is the great wish in life on this website.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Justabout healed,
I never answered your comment from January (sorry)–but yes, those that are rich or powerful (or relatively so) BUY the asskissing with money and favors. My egg donor tried to buy me with money (“gifts” I turned down) but my DIL took the gifts so gratiously, but she didn’t realize that these “gifts” came with STRINGS which included ASS KISSING, JUMPING WHEN CALLED FOR FAVORS, etc etc and she was NOT inclined to show “gratitude” for the “gifts,” which in fact, were DOWNPAYMENTS ON CONTROL. LOL
I, on the other hand, had learned a LONG TIME AGO that “gifts” like this were down payments on control and compliance. “After all I have done for you, after all I have given you, you don’t _________(fill in the blank) for me!” ROTFLMAO Yea, “gifts” NOT!!!!!
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awakening says:
my ex was the master of taking my vulnerabilities and purposely orchestrating situations that would exploit theit got the more needy i became and less able to leave. i starting asking my family to help me get a restraining order in september 08. i tried and got swindled out of thousands from an attorney that i had to take to the bar to get her to stop billing me, for nothing.
i was broke and needed support but ””here is the core issue”’ my family offered treatment therapy all of the stuff to fix me but no support that protected me from the bad guy. to this day not a word to him or his family only interventions to fix me. i know i am sick but how would you feel if you were broke because you loved a man and trusted him and he stole, lied. cheated, threatened, sexually abused., emotionally abused, bullied, you etc. and you rich and powerful dad, mom and sister, simply suggest getting a good shrink?
actually the first really really bad reaction i had 8/8/08. he was seeing that other girl, lying, sleeping with me accepting my help then “silent treatment” over and over. then i was so broken, devastated, on the floor crying i could no longer take it. that was the first time he coaxed me into offing myself but making sure to drive me to the bank first to drain my savings of the little that was left. the next day, ( i checked into a hotel under a different name so my family didn’t know where i was) i didn’t do it, he was gone as was the cash, and my phone was off so my family was worried. their response…….” go get help or we can no longer talk to you”.
i feel like i could be gang raped and he would say “what are you doing you really need to pull yourself together. lets get you some therapy.”
here are a few of my ex’s techniques in using my trust and openness with him against me;
1) honesty—–”please just tell me if you want to be friends and see other people that’s fine just don’t mislead me”. “of course not . please, i would never. i love you.” 16 other women and men. he set me up to believe we were about to make love, get me naked, get me totally vulnerable, then either suddenly leave me there naked alone and say he has coming right back and ignore me. also he tape recorded me at times so who knows what other sick stuff he did. i have gross photos on my computer no idea where they came from.
2) please don’t suddenly discard me without saying goodbye. it triggers something inside me and i have a literal breakdown. so please just a text anything just don’t see me calling and ignore me. “please i would never. i promise.” well 2x a week since 6/01/08 he would make love to me profess to love me, then just like that gone. i know i should have left but at that point i couldn’t breathe much less be strong. he would show others (another ex at that time) my texts saying “poor—– i am really worried about her. no we don’t see each other we are just friends but i am afraid she is using drugs or loosing her mind.” then he would come over tell me i am crazy that he was not with other women and not ignoring me and that i need help. i am crazy. OMG his phone bill showed he called her 84x in 3 weeks. and yet he still denied it
3) he likes to stay up for days and i do not and i need to sleep overnight. i asked to simply respect that and even offered that he stay up all night just please inform me at a decent hour and then just stay at a friends (guy so i thought) until the morning so i don’t have to worry. my son was living with me then and i couldn’t have him roaming around all hours of the night. so, naturally he said sure and purposely did things to keep me up night after night.
there is so much more but the most pain comes from knowing i shared intimate parts of myself with this man thinking it would be cherished, respected, and kept between us (like i did for him although all i got were lies) when in fact he used each one to calculate a way to hurt me.
I love my dad but there stems my issues. and i know it is me not him. i am not a child i decide what i do and who i let into my life and i forgave them for our childhood but yet i can’t make whatever it is in my head about men stop destroying me.
i know i put to much importance or give too much of myself in a relationship because of some unsolved daddy issue or simply wanting to break free from him being the man in my life and yet that’s is exactly what sabotages it.
i know that i am a lady and i should not be paying for the man to live. i know money doesn’t buy love or happiness if anything y relationships with men.
my sex issues well, hopeless. i have shame from the catholic thing and my ex is the only one i trusted enough to “you know” then he exploited me, brought over homeless prostitutes, watched porn, degraded me, left my bed for an others and my money paid for it. agh!!! i can accept no more men or sex, but i still want to know how to take the power away from the negative messages i got as a kid and now????
i am grown woman but please i was caught in the cycle of abuse and my millionaire dad won’t help me accept for a shrink. i out right said “dad please i need you. you have credibility and power and you could scare him off or at least restore my credibility a little bit of you just called —and explained about the airline tickets.(03/08) no one believes me and it hurt s me and isn’t right and besides if my own father doesn’t have any reaction what so ever to my being robbed, abused, harassed, scared, murdering ex how do you think that will affect how anyone views the situation?” how can i get a restraining order if i can’t even convince my own father that i could be in danger???
i think maybe i am nuts. please know i know i am an adult and i can’t blame anyone but me for letting this go on for so long. i know i promise i know but is there any validity to my feelings or really what i need is please tell me how to stop letting these men control how i feel about myself??????????????????????????
thank you and so sorry so long.
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awakening says:
man no idea it was that long…..just skip it. so sorry agh!!!!!!@@!
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Matt says:
awakening:
Your feelings are valid. When I read your first couple of paragraphs I thought “I’m a gay man, but she just described my relationship with S to a “t”.” All of us on this site would make the same statement, because even though there are variations, we all pretty much experienced exactly what you survived.
While I understand looking to your family for support — I did and I got none, the sad reality is at the end of the day only you and you alone can go NC and stop the madness. Another sad reality is that unless somebody has gone through having their life canibalized by a sociopath, they just can’t understand it. That’s why we’re all here on this site.
I don’t know if you are seeing a theraist yet. It can help — but you’ve got to find one who knows what sociopathy is all about. There’s an article in the archives about questions to ask a therapist to determine this. I urge you to read it.
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awakening says:
thank you so much matt. i am embarrassed that i wrote so much. i feel selfish, pathetic, like just os sick of being sick. i want that fun, laughing, happy bubbly girl to come back.
i really appreciate you saying that you relate it helps so much especially since it was way too long and i so don’t want to seem like i blame my dad. thank god i found you!!! i am sad for you that you all had to endure this crap but thankful that we have each other!!
yes i was seeing someone 2x a week when i was at my parents from nov – march. now i am back here, just moved, and still trying to figure out what’s next? i blew off calling the attorney and i don’t know anyone out here who understands. is there a place i can look for shrinks in my area who get it?
i really want to move forward and stop dwelling on myself and him and my other issues. at times i feel like to “live” is my best solution.. who knows?( i know to be save it means to create a life without looking for a man or sex. then maybe i can do the rest)
you are a great person to help so many with their legal questions and to answer a long winded clueless new member.
thank you. sending you a big hug and i hope some good laughs this weekend!!!!!!
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Matt says:
awakening:
Have you read the book “The Betrayal Bond”? It really helped me understand why I kept getting involved in exploitive relationships.
As for finding a good therapist, there is a referral list on this site. Other than that, read that article on what questions to ask a potential therapist.
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