The New Yorker writes about researchers’ struggle to study psychopaths
PDF Two Lovefraud readers brought an article in the latest issue of The New Yorker magazine to my attention. It’s entitled Suffering Souls—the search for the roots of psychopathy, by John Seabrook.
The article starts off describing the work of a researcher, Dr. Kent Kiehl, who is using an fMRI machine to study the brains of prisoners in the Western New Mexico Correctional Facility, searching for physical indications of psychopathy. The author provides a brief history of the evolution of scientific understanding about this personality disorder, and describes today’s conflicting opinions about it. Seabrook reviewed the literature and interviewed experts, including Dr. Robert Hare.
All in all, the article provides an excellent summary of the state of scientific research about psychopathy. If you want to understand how the researchers think about this personality disorder, I recommend that you read it.
Never met a psychopath
Although the story is comprehensive, one of the points made me think that we at Lovefraud have a better understanding of psychopaths than researchers.
“Unlike most academic psychopathy researchers, Kiehl has spent many hours in the company of his subjects. When he meets colleagues at conferences, he told me, “they always ask, ‘What are they like?’ These are guys who have spent twenty years studying psychopaths and never met one.” Although the number of psychopaths who are not in prisons is thought to exceed the number who are—if the one-per-cent figure is correct, there are more than a million psychopaths at large in the United States alone—they are much harder to identify in the outside world. Some are “successful psychopaths,” holding down good jobs in many types of industries. It is generally only if they commit a crime and enter the criminal-justice system that they become available for research.”
This is scary—many researchers in psychopathy never met one? We should consider ourselves better informed, because we’ve all had extremely close encounters with these predators. And we know exactly how the ones who are not in jail behave.
More information is needed about psychopaths in the community. That’s why our contributions to the study, Victimizations, coping, and social support of adult survivors of psychopaths, are so important. If you haven’t yet filled out the survey, be sure to do it.
Parents and children
According to the New Yorker article, Dr. Robert Hare does not approve of using his Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) in child custody disputes. Although I can understand where Dr. Hare is coming from—his test was designed specifically to predict recidivism among offenders—it is still the gold standard in identifying psychopaths. As we at Lovefraud know, psychopaths make terrible parents. Unfortunately, there is no scientific documentation—yet—of what we know to be true.
This points to the need for more research on psychopaths who are not in jail. First of all, we need to be able to identify them, especially in family court cases. Secondly, we need research documenting that psychopaths do, indeed, harm their children. I know this cause is very important to Dr. Liane Leedom, and we hope to contribute to more thorough understanding of these problems.
The article also touches on the issues of children with psychopathic traits. On the one hand, it states that psychologists don’t want to label children as psychopaths. On the other hand, there is some evidence that children with psychopathic traits can be helped, “if you catch it young enough.” That means they need to be identified.
It’s a circular problem. There is a very strong genetic component to this personality disorder, so it is crucial to identify psychopathic parents, because their children may be at risk of also becoming psychopaths. We also need to identify children who have inherited the dispostion to the personality disorder and are, in fact, at risk. That means diagnosing them so we can try to help them.
The issue of at-risk children is not one in which we should be squeamish or politically correct about identifying the disorder. Lives are at stake.
Mental illness?
In scanning prisoners’ brains, Dr. Kent Kiehl hopes to find a biological cause for the psychopathic personality disorder. By finding a cause, there is the chance of developing drugs to treat the disorder.
This raises philosophical and ethical questions. What if he succeeds? What if he proves that psychopathy is a form of mental illness? But what if people are diagnosed and treatment doesn’t work? If psychopathy is a mental illness, does that mean that these predators aren’t responsible for their crimes?
I don’t have the answers to these questions. But I do know that here at Lovefraud, we are building a valuable knowledge base beyond that of the scientific researchers. We know how psychopaths behave when they are free, out in the community, and doing what predators do.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Wini says:
holywatersalt: That’s why when anyone opens the Bible and starts to read it, they should ask God (through prayer) to help them in what they are reading. God will direct the person to what they need to know and how they can go about learning it.
Peace.
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Wini says:
holywatersalt: That’s how I figured out people who live in their egos violate the very first commandment “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 1. Do not have any other gods before me.”.
Meaning, stop living in your ego, go, be humble, and follow me.
I always thought, like most people, that the gods they were following was money, or power, or other idols …
It’s was perception of my youth that led me to believe my first thoughts of that commandment … until I went through the mess with my bosses did my eyes open and see what I needed to see.
We all have egos … on a scale of 1 to 10, where is your ego?
How do you humble yourself? Pray to God regarding this request, and he will guide you.
Peace.
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BloggerT7165 says:
My point is that there are many people of various faiths and no faith that are good, kind, loving, honest, decent, people. The bible or any other work of wisdom does not cure or prevent psychopaths. If the psychopath was in a state of mind to be able to receive wisdom he/she would not be a psychopath. And I am trying to stick to the psychopath not every day people.
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Wini says:
BloggerT7165: On a scale of 1-10 for egos.
10 being the biggest ego a human can acquire.
Where do you think the psychopathic personality falls on that scale?
If anti-social personalities read the Bible, they can memorize scripture. I’ve personally seen them do this … that doesn’t mean they ever humbled themselves to comprehend the true meaning that God wants us to receive.
Peace.
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holywatersalt says:
I’d disagree- there could be a miracle…but even that would not mean I’d have to believe it. Believing in miracles of others is not an article of faith.
And I dsiagree- a psychopath is sane and able to choose, they just in most disturbing unimaginable ways choose evil.
I know it shakes our foundations, but that’s key- it’s a sane choice.
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Wini says:
BloggerT7165: I’ve opened the Bible with my ego in tack. Read for an hour or so. Didn’t comprehend a thing I was reading. The words were just words to me.
That’s why I pray to God before I start to read and ask him to help me comprehend.
It’s when I am humble, respecting our Lord, will the words on the pages I read make sense … the wisdom pours out of the pages, when you humble yourself to our Lord.
Peace.
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Wini says:
holywatersalt: I don’t understand your question. Will you elaborate on what you are asking? Miracles? Faith? Choosing Evil?
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BloggerT7165 says:
Holywater I know that psychopaths are “sane”. Insanity is a legal term. Personality disorders do not mean someone is “insane”. Mental illness does not mean insane either. And as I said anything is possible.
I am curious what about the billions of people that are not christian? Are you implying that they are more psychopaths in non-christians since they do not read the bible?
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Elizabeth Conley says:
When you look at the behavior of DSM IV cluster B’s in church, you realize that Satan does not want to destroy the church. The church is his favorite tool. Satan wants to drag as many Christians off track as possible. Working in the church is a great way to do it.
Humility is a lovely thing. It’s not the only thing. If you’re a regular target for Ps, Ss & Ns, you are almost surely sufficiently humble. God may have created you to be a doormat, but it’s unlikely. You probably have some other talent as well!
Studying Romans 12 can help us find balance and direction in this area of our lives. When I find that bowing, scraping and catering to people is cutting into my productivity, I remember the broader scope of my duties in life. No, I’m not important in a worldly sense, but I should still fulfill my function. People I love count on me to keep on track.
When we’re talking about spiritual abuse, it’s important to remember that the church bullies, Narcissists, Sociopaths and Psychopaths are counting on the congregation to be very, very humble, particularly when we should be very, very, firm! If the congregants ever recognizes they have duties beyond being humble, the abusers’ powers are gone.
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Indigoblue says:
Concience is the internal warning signal that says this is good or this is bad ! Free Choice ! It is given to each and every one of us ! To say I did’nt have a choice ? Why not? you had the choice to open your eyes this mornin ! You have the choice to do what ever you want ! The only Problem with Free Choice is the Consequences of that free choice ! Choose wisely ! LOVE jere
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holywatersalt says:
Bloggert-
Not quite sure where you got that opinion- I stated above why I came to know of psychopaths- because of fallen away Christians.
And I am aware that the disordered are not mentally ill, that’s why I call it a choice.
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holywatersalt says:
Humility has nothing to do with being a doormat – it’s a virtue.
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Indigoblue says:
Blooger T
GOD or Creator Or I AM or what ever you choose to call IT
Puts the answer in your soul regardless of religion , race ,color , sex , sexuality , length of hair , color of eyes , ears , nose , language , place ,you name it ! people the species of Homoerectus has Freedom of choice given by the Creator!
Each individual has the opprotunity to choose which way!
Christian is just acknowledging the creator , and many say one thing and do another ! LOVE jere
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Wini says:
Indi’s in the house!!!!
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Wini says:
Now Indi, stop ruffling feathers … we don’t need a religious war breaking out on us.
Peace and harmony.
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Indigoblue says:
Amen Sister can I have a PRAISE JESUS and a Halayluya!
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Wini says:
Did anyone ever get back to me with how God writes his name?
I remember asking that question a few months back … but was off the blogg for a while … and got swept away with the current bloggers when I returned. My fault, I never read back through the posts.
Peace.
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holywatersalt says:
Blogger-
I think Iknow what you meant now- yes, I think life is easier as a PRACTICING Christian. Easier psychologically, but often we suffer more for the faith.
A practicing Christian by definition cannot be a psychopath. Do I think non-Christians are necessarily more psychopathic now- but the farter you are away from the source of good- there’s danger.
That said the Church has for many years recognized good people outside her fold- God is not a commodity held by the Chursh, He is for all. As a Catholic, I have the fullness of the faith.
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Indigoblue says:
BOLT of LIGHTNING
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holywatersalt says:
And the Church is not MAN- that’s Key.
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BloggerT7165 says:
I very much like your post Elizabeth and I have found that your last paragraph to be especially true. One of my dearest friends is a pastor who recently said basically the same thing during a recent sermon.
Indi – thank you for that post
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Indigoblue says:
What is the purest water?
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Wini says:
holywatersalt: Church is community. A door way to get to know our creator with the company of our neighbors.
It is our (every person , singular) responsibility to read the Bible.
Peace.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Thank you Holy for your response. I am not trying to start a religious argument but am trying to gety an understanding of what exactly people mean and that is difficult for me to do this way instead of through speech.
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Wini says:
BloggerT7165: I didn’t find anything argumentative about your conversation…. you always get my mind to wind up and get going … blow the cobwebs off sort to speak (LOL).
Peace.
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Indigoblue says:
I think she drinks to much coffee
~
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Elizabeth Conley says:
BloggerT7165 – Thanx. I was cringing over the Grammar error.
There is a grave concern within the Christian community that we all be humble, and not think more of ourselves than we ought. This is reasonable, since anyone can be a difficult person when we’re puffed up with vanity. Unfortunately, “humility” is the very trap exploitive leaders use to prevent good Christians from getting free of their tyranny.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Wini the one biblical passage I try to use to guide my life is this one:
It is doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly with your God (Micah 6:8).
With that said I also find wisdom from many faiths.
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Wini says:
Elizabeth Conley; That is because everyone isn’t on the same spiritual level. If they were, we wouldn’t have tyrants wanting to control and dominate.
Peace.
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Wini says:
BloggerT7165: You have a beautiful soul radiating …
Peace.
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Indigoblue says:
Beam me up Scotty
Jesus did’nt have jetservice or internet or laptops or credit cards or even a scribe and he did’nt need them ! It is writen in our hearts or minds or souls ! It is not limited to hearing , reading ,seeing , touching ,smelling ,tasteing ,
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Wini says:
I personally try to read as much as I can the word of God, no matter what the book is called.
Peace.
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Wini says:
Indi, you just answered my question without reading it.
Peace.
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Indigoblue says:
Remember Jesus turned the water into BEER
~
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Wini says:
Elizabeth Conley: The grave concerns are only down on Earth … they don’t exist after we leave this plan. It is mortal thoughts.
I know what you mean, but too complex to answer in one sitting.
Again, it’s the perception of man, on Earth, living in human form.
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Unwilling Raconteur says:
Wini wrote:
“If anti-social personalities read the Bible, they can memorize scripture. I’ve personally seen them do this … that doesn’t mean they ever humbled themselves to comprehend the true meaning that God wants us to receive.”
Absolutely! There’s a huge difference between “studying religion” and its tenets and actually believing in those tenets and carrying them out. My ex-S claimed to be Christian at the time we were together, but the more I got to know him, the more I realized that nothing about his life was Christian. He could tell you the history of the church and all the denominations and he’d read the Bible from cover to cover, but his was more of an academic approach to religion. Anyone can go out there and study Paganism, Buddhism, etc., but that doesn’t mean that we’re going to be Pagans or Buddhists.
“Christian” means living the way Christ lived and believing in that life. If you see someone who claims to be Christian and yet everything they seem to do is in direct conflict with their purported beliefs, they are not really Christian, IMHO.
And there’s one more component, too. I think that being Christian means acting as a Christian honestly — in other words, you’re not just following the rules because the book tells you to. You have to understand the meaning of Christ and want to follow Him. You have to aspire to be good and whole — it is that genuine aspiration that shows in true Christians.
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holywatersalt says:
ps
I was not saying- writing-typing- that non-Christians are more sociopathic.
My typing is awful. I think we find a lot ot psychos in Church, b/c the Devil loves a good game. The stories I could tell.
I think it is best to be a Christian- of course- but not that someone who isn’t is a psycho in any way shape or form.
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ThePeregrine says:
I also think there aren’t a lot of accurate generalizations about sociopaths, but one that I believe is that sociopaths/psychopaths do what they do to get their own needs met. The need may be for attention, financial gain, social status … but whatever it is, they have adopted and evolved strategies that place their own well-being above the well-being of all others. It isn’t that you’ve done anything to deserve their behavior — it’s that YOU DO NOT MATTER. And yet, other aspects of their behavior suggests that your opinion of THEM matters very much. So that’s a puzzling inconsistency, except when you remember that their motives and their actions are entirely selfish.
This is very hard for the average empathic person to understand. So MANY people matter in my own life that I can’t imagine this way of thinking in my world.
The fact that these are learned and practiced *strategies* suggests to me that this is more nurture than nature in its origins, but I don’t see the world as only nurture and nature. When a person reaches an age at which he or she can reason and create new life strategies, we cannot look to the parents or genetics as the predictors of all behavior.
When people bump into natural consequences for their harmful actions, they may stop acting that way and redirect. Some sociopaths are smart enough to avoid natural consequences, and I think that’s what sets them on a lifelong path of inflicting pain on others. They reap rewards for their deviant nature, and they move forward in that direction until something profound gets in their way. Like prison.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Peregrine,
Your comments about “prison getting in their way” I think is too simplistic…though he has been in prison for 20+ years, My son uses prison as a training ground and continues his manipulating and conning right from his prison cell.
It is almost FUNNY if it weren’t so dangerous. In some ways, prison is actually “heaven on earth” to them, they have so many rules they can violate and get by with (good adrenaline fixes there) and they have so many plots and plans that they can formulate (risk taking) so they are constantly stimulated and rewarded, either positive or negative doesn’t matter, they get some kind of adrenaline fix anyway.
They never accept responsibility for their failures (it is ALWAYS someone else’s fault) so they don’t learn from that aspect either.
The only thing prison does is to keep them off the street and give them PhDs in manipulation and new ideas for crimes.
I read a book years ago which I no longer have and can’t remember the author, but the books name was The Felon, and it was a sociological research on the thinking of prisoners (most of the subects researched I think were ps) and how they adapt to being in prison for differing periods of time.
The fantasy that the prisoner comes up with as he thinks about what life will be like when he gets out is 180 degrees away from the way it actually WILL be. The large difference between reality and his fantasy causes him to be dissatisfied with life on the outside as it really is, so he reoffends and goes back.
I have noticed the fantasy life my P-son has had in prison. Because he has been in prison his entire adult life he has no real basis in life experiences on the outside. Of course he also lies a lot too. He is quite the computer guru even in prison he has kept up with computer programming, and told me about a program he had written for a cell mate of his who had been a stock broker on the outside that was going to be the fountain of gold by picking stocks. He kept wanting to send me disks of this and have me invest $5000 in this to make a “million” and of course I would not have anything to do with this.
Fast forward a couple of years and when we were going through the paper work of the Trojan Horse Psychopath that he sent to infiltrate the family, I saw letters written by this “stock broker” super smart guy—the guy was ILLITERATE, and the “program” was one of these $495 programs you buy off of late night TV to become a “millionaire.” My son had altered it somewhat, but still that was what it was.
Now, my son is in the 99th percentile in IQ, but he had NO judgment about anything financial, he was entirely basing his opinions on the illiterate ramblings of some other convict’s stories.
As far as QUOTE “When people bump into natura consequences for their harmful actions, ,they may sto0p acting that way and redirect” I would add to that, “when NORMAL PEOPLE….” The majority of Ps I have known do not REDIRECT, they just plow on more forcefully. Though, you are correct that some are smart enough socially to cover their tracks and not get caught in the first place, and then there are ones like my son who are too arrogant to even bother covering their tracks with believeable lies.
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ThePeregrine says:
OxDrover, I can’t imagine what it must be like to have a son like yours. It drove me nuts just dealing with my sociopath encounter for a couple of years.
Point well taken about redirection being a *normal* response to natural consequences. Part of what I was saying there is that somehow sociopaths manage to avoid natural consequences all the time, but I’m sure part of that is that they simply ignore them!
And the thing about the get-rich-quick scheme? I’m not so sure about your perspective on that, because to me there is a very clear line between what the sociopath really believes and what he/she tells us. He may not ever have believed that the program was worth anything, but if he could get SOMEBODY ELSE to believe it, maybe he’s somehow $5,000 richer. Never mind it’s you, his own mom, who’s getting conned.
An eye-opening moment for me came when my then-girlfriend told me a bold-faced lie to get me all heated up about something, and I simply turned to her and said, “So you say.” She knew then that the game was over. But then again, that’s when she started her vengeful actions because she believed she had to discredit me FIRST (she thought I would reveal her as a fraud, which wasn’t necessarily on my agenda).
And yeah, I also think arrogance is probably very characteristic of sociopaths. It doesn’t always LOOK like arrogance, and sometimes my ex-girlfriend came off as the kindest, sweetest person you’d ever meet. She’d literally sell her own daughters, though, if it came to that, because her needs and desires were paramount to everything else in her life or any other.
This stuff is so hard for us to really grasp, and you know — I think that’s just as well! If I completely understood the behavior of a sociopath, I think I’d feel a little less comfortable in my own skin.
Thanks for your insights, OxDrover. Interesting, and sad …
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OxDrover says:
Dear Peregrine,
Yes, it is sad, but I actually think he believed that his and his illiterate stock broker friends had it all figured out–yea, like Madoff! ha ha I actually think that because of his arrogance and lack of life experience outside of prison these “get rich quick” schemes sound reasonable to him. I don’t doubt that they had some kind of quasi illegal angle to it, but he wouldn’t have directly profited from my “investment” since I would have been managing it myself using his program. What was funny though was it wasn’t “His” program to start, with but one of those $495 get rich quick late-night-TV deals. LOL Though he had modified it.
I never for once thought about investing in anything he and any of his friends came up with, that’s for sure, even before I found out these people were on the level with carnival barkers. (chuckle)
When I finally realized though, that he HAD NO REMORSE and was continuing to try to scam me and others, though, and I cut off financial support and disinherited him, that was when he really got mad and tried to have me killed. I wish the $5000 scam would have been the worst of it. My son is a monster! The saddest part is that it took me so long to get out of denial about that. It is also very sad that a kid with an IQ in the 99th percentile chose to be a common thief and thug instead of the “rocket scientist” he could have been.
It IS DIFFICULT to grasp, and I don’t think we can truly know how they think any more than they can know how WE think. It is almost like a cross-species communication problem.
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athas says:
Donna Anderson wrote:
“I don’t have the answers to these questions. But I do know that here at Lovefraud, we are building a valuable knowledge base beyond that of the scientific researchers. We know how psychopaths behave when they are free, out in the community, and doing what predators do.”
This is an unbelievably arrogant and ignorant statement. I am not attacking you. Just stating a fact. To think that you know more than scientific researchers is a delusion. There is actually quite a bit of ignorance here. You don’t even know whether or not the men you were involved with were actually sociopaths.
“In scanning prisoners’ brains, Dr. Kent Kiehl hopes to find a biological cause for the psychopathic personality disorder. By finding a cause, there is the chance of developing drugs to treat the disorder.”
First of all, psychopathy is not a personality disorder. Personality disorders ARE mental illnesses. A cause has already been found. Sociopaths are born with a gene cluster that causes them to develop brains that are radically different from ours. This is the cause of sociopathy. It is NOT a disorder. It is just a difference.
“What if he proves that psychopathy is a form of mental illness? But what if people are diagnosed and treatment doesn’t work? If psychopathy is a mental illness, does that mean that these predators aren’t responsible for their crimes?”
He is not trying to prove that sociopathy is a form of mental illness. It’s already been established that sociopaths are sane and are aware of it when they are breaking the law. They just simply don’t care. He is trying to understand exactly how sociopathic brains differ from “normal” brains. It’s already know that they differ very significantly. But Dr. Kiehl has taken on the monumental task of trying to completely understand the sociopathic brain. If he can do this he may be able to develop a treatment that will turn sociopaths into normal people. But it will not be a medication for a mental illness. Sociopaths will then be able to choose whether or not they want to become normal or wish to stay sociopaths. But either way sociopaths will not become categorized as mentally ill. They will still be held responsible for their actions. So I would stop worrying about this.
You people here need to do your own research and stop thinking your experiences are some kind of accurate information about sociopaths. A lot of you don’t even know for sure if the person you were involved with was really a sociopath. How many of them took Hare’s test and were diagnosed? You’re accusing every jerk that comes along of being a sociopath whether you have any proof of that or not. Many normal people have sociopathic characteristics but they are not sociopaths. I suspect that a lot of you were just involved with a normal jerk.
You need to quit depending on what you learn in this little isolated place and get out and read some of the scientific data. Listen to what sociopaths have to say about themselves in places where they are allowed to be themselves. You might actually learn something. There’s a forum for sociopaths and their victims at www. sociopathic.net. There’s also a blog for sociopaths but normals are welcome. I can’t remember the url right now I’ll post it later. These are places you can observe sociopaths you’re not involved with being themselves and talking about themselves. These places were a real education for me. You don’t have to participate. You can just read their posts. Well, I’ll shut up now. I guess I’ll get stoned for what I’ve said.
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henry says:
Let’s see – we have hundreds of people that post here describing sociopaths and physcopaths that never picked up a book about them. Dr. Hare and Mr. Know it all dont know jack shit about them unless they have been plowed over by one. If someone is just a big jerk they usually dont reak the havoc that spaths do, Jerks are easy to spot – you dont have a clue what is going on here at lovefraud or the type of physcopath/sociopath/narcissist that rip’s your fucking heart out and jump’s up and down on it with glee as they are leaving you in a fetal position on the bathroom floor. I dont give a rats ass what the prison therapist have to say – the s/p/n in prison is harmless to me – it’s the mentally ill jerks that think they know more than they do that scare me…..
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Athas,
OPINIONS are always welcome here. And perhaps its best/wise to leave my post at that….but….
Glad you are finding an education at “Sociopathic” websites and glad you are confident that none of them are mentally ill or personality disordered or normal jerks over there…
Doesnt really matter here… LF covers a wide range of toxic relationships… and most of us openly admit we have no idea what we came across – except a dysfunctional situation. From Psychopaths to Sociopaths to ASPD, to Bi Polar to Jerks to a combination…Personally, I got my education first hand from a sickminded soul… you can label him or them all you want! And I learned how to recover here at LF! Mission accomplished!
IMHO, I disagree with your assessment of Psychopathy and its origination. Although to an extent, I agree a certain percentage emerge from your belief of solely genetics.
I still have more to learn…for example…posting this post LOL! But its a learning process!!
Henry — TOWANDO!
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Jim in Indiana USA says:
Athas…thanks for your input. “You need”.., “You people…”
I visited the “sociopathic.net” site….once.
And, there is actually quite a bit of ignorance (as you say), and lack of empathy, everywhere.
I’ll choose my own sources for education, thanks.
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