A springboard to a new life with a new mindset?
PDF Last Friday Robin Hoffman interviewed me again on her radio show, The Feminine Soul. We discussed recovering from a relationship with a sociopath. She asked two very important questions, “How do we avoid picking another sociopath in the future?” and “How can we ever trust our instincts again?”
Coincidentally, yesterday I received this letter from a reader:
I got involved recently with a man who seemed to be the opposite of my previous psychopath. All the traits I like, strong, dominant, etc but seemed to have a good heart, and importantly a good history. I checked him out, he had a long service in the police force and a voluntary youth organization, was widely respected and successful.
Recognizing my vulnerability, I kept my eyes and ears open, and my heart guarded.
After 3 weeks I started to spot inconsistencies, tested a bit, and noticed the feeling of cognitive dissonance and didn’t ignore it.
After 6 weeks I ended the relationship, even though part of me was screaming inside “no, don’t do it”. Only afterwards did I discover that not only was he cheating on a wife who had cancer, but he was also cheating on a long term girlfriend, who genuinely loved him and is devastated. He was playing with fire by putting us both on the same webpage and we got chatting without having any idea of the relationships involved and it all came out. I’ve given her a link to saferelationships.com and can only hope she learns from the experience.
I SO proud of myself. I got out before getting involved, so it didn’t hurt. The experience was positive in that I made a different choice, for me. My stop light is starting to work and I’m learning I can trust my instincts again.
There are three parts of ourselves that are “taken” by the sociopath. The first part is the conscious mind. The sociopath fools the conscious mind by lies. It can be very difficult to detect these lies because skilled sociopaths use willing and unknowing accomplices to back up their lies. (This is why it is important for family members to distance themselves from the sociopath and his/her relationships.)
Sociopaths know to pick on trusting people. In general trusting people are loyal and trustworthy. These are good qualities so when your conscious mind is taken, you can be left with a lot of self-doubts. The strategy of carefully checking out people’s claims is a good one but it often takes time to uncover a sociopath’s lies.
Our unconscious minds also get “taken” in the sociopath’s con. Sociopaths are dominant and seductive. These traits may be arousing and attractive. I think that this may be in born. We may be attracted to these traits instinctively just like certain body parts are arousing for some.
Even though the attraction to the dominance and seductiveness of sociopaths may be instinctual, I don’t think we are stuck with it. I was able to train myself to be different and I want to share with you how I did it.
I am somewhat ashamed to say it took me too long to understand that I was drawn to sociopaths because of their dominance behavior. Once I understood this, I set out to find a way to feel differently about them. I wanted to like them less. I had always observed that there were some mental health professionals who were instinctively repulsed by sociopaths and I wanted to know what was different about them.
In studying the literature on dominance behavior and personality I discovered that dominance and empathy are opposed to each other. When dominance motives are in play empathy is turned off. The hormones of dominance also turn off empathy. The opposite is also true empathy and affection also suppress dominance motives.
Armed with this knowledge I set out to study men I knew who had long track records of loving empathetic behavior. I spent hours talking with them about their views of love, life and life’s purpose. I did this until the lesson had sunk in emotionally not just intellectually. A fully human person, male or female is loving and devoted. He or she is able to control dominance motives and express them only when appropriate.
Since this emotional lesson sunk in, I have found myself actually repulsed by dominant people. I no longer admire them or find them entertaining. Instead, I emotionally experience them as they are, shallow and lacking in important qualities.
Sociopaths also “take us” on another level. They manipulate us into forming bonds with them. These bonds are unconscious and chemical- whether the sociopath is a family member or lover. Breaking a bond with a sociopath is very painful. We do not have to be enslaved by our human bonds, we can acknowledge them and realize that at times these bonds have to be broken even though doing so is painful and difficult.
To sum it up then your new wiser mindset may have many aspects to it. Wisdom is a practice as well as a state of mind.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
skylar says:
Trimama,
welcome. Sorry you had to come here, but here is the right place.
You are experiencing addiction and withdrawal. Only time really helps but there are things you can do to make it go faster. Focus on learning everything you can about the disorder so that you can discern truth from lies. It is those lies that keep us stuck for so long. Once the lies are revealed and obvious to you, he will have much less power over you. After that you will start to learn about yourself and what made you vulnerable.
All during this time you will go through the withdrawal from that emotional rollercoaster. The reason they are so hard to leave is because they alternate Love and Hate to create wild swings in our emotions. My spath even told me, “I like to make them so happy and bring them up high, so they have further to fall”. It was a tell because he pretended to be talking about someone he was pretending to hate.
Realize that everything they say is a lie. That’s the best place to start.
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Stargazer says:
Wow, has anyone (henry, oxy) read back over these posts from 2008? Have we come a long way or what???? I haven’t even seen the skillet in years!
Oxy, what ever happened to the work program you were talking about for women in crisis? And maybe having a massage therapist around? That was such a great idea!
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hens says:
No Star I was afraid to look back on this thread, I am sure I would cringe with embarrassment – I am serious I have not looked…but i do miss indigo blue
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hens says:
NO Star I have not looked back into this thread, I am sure I would cringe with embarrasment. My goodness I have been yapping for three year’s? i am serious I have not looked – but I do miss Indigoblue – he had such a great sense of humor and dry wit and his post were short – accurate and to the point…my kind of man….
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KatyDid says:
Hey NOLa2bCop
If you’re still here, I wrote a helpful, I hope, post on “How to eat a cow” blog.
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bluejay says:
trimama,
Yes, these people do the unthinkable, being very unscrupulous in how they maneuver in life, not caring one whit about (being oblivious to) all the chaos that they create in their own lives and in our lives. The best thing that could happen to you is for him to get out of your life and stay out of it for good.
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trimama says:
Thank you so much for taking the time to offer support!
I read your thoughts, and sobbed. No one else has understood the devastation and the attachment that has come from being in a relationship with a psychopath.
Many people want to chalk this man’s behavior up to substance abuse, but it is fare more than that.
I sent away for The Betrayal Connection and The Gift of Betrayal. I have ordered copies for my therapist as well. She is well-meaning and skilled, but very clearly does not understand this dilemma. Thankfully, she is willing to learn and to help me work through this.
It is funny to me what I cling to as the “last straw” with him…the stepping off point. He has done so many hurtful things, but I focus now his taking up with a young woman and changing his phone number! What the heck?! I should be running from this man. In fact, the two people he was in relationship with before me, who did not know each other each said the same thing….RUN!
So I take heed of what I hear from you all in terms of no contact. I need to listen to you. I need to save myself.
Thank you!
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bluejay says:
trimama,
The longer you stay no contact, the easier it becomes for you, keeping him out of your sphere of existence. This guy is a bad dude (for any woman, not just you). There are so many articles on this website that are helpful, giving you insight into how a sociopath operates in life. The man’s thinking is twisted, off kilter. Take care of yourself, be good to yourself – this helps in the healing process. Peace.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Star,
Yep, I am amazed at how far we have come! “We’ve come a long way, baby.” You’re right I haven’t used the skillet very much on us lately either—well except for Henry and I lovvvve boinking him on the head just for FUN!!! LOL
I posted this in October 2008:
I keep saying this over and over, but will do it again, “THIS IS THE BEST ARTICLE ON LOVE FRAUD”
In a series of insightful articles I think this is one of the GREATEST if not THE greatest article here. WOW!!! Is all I can say.
“Wisdom is a practice as well as a state of mind.”
I still believe it is one of the best articles here on LF…and I’d been around for well over a year at the time this one was written.
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trimama says:
Thank you all!
Hearing experienced and healing people describe him as toxic and bad and all helps me.
He is all those things and more.
I am learning the truth. And I also hired a private investigator to learn some more. So that I can more fully understand the lies.
Each piece of truth is setting me more free.
The remainder of getting free is no contact, no contact, no contact.
I keep saying that to myself and thank you for advising me to do that.
Yes, he is dangerous to all women. He has harmed women before and will continue to do so.
I am thankful for the strength to get away, and for the support found here to stay away.
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skylar says:
Trimama,
hiring an investigator is NOT NC because he is still occupying space in your mind. I do understand though, your need to know the truth and set your mind at ease. What I think is that it will help a little bit, but it will also set you back that amount of time. The point is to NOT CARE what he DOES, because you know what he IS.
I do understand, but I’d rather see you save your money.
I can guarantee you HE WILL BE BACK, because you have money and because he knows you always give in.
And if you talk to him, he will push your buttons, you will have a big screaming fight, and whatever you find out about him will come out in the fight. Then he will know what you did.
Your focus right now has to be NC and Gray Rock. Your emotions must be protected at all costs until you are able to feel more solid. This will take anywhere from 6 months to 3 years. It all depends on YOU. What you do with your time and thoughts will influence that.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Trimama,
I agree with sky, cancel the PI—you already know enough about this guy to know he is NO GOOD FOR YOU. That is ALL you need to know. He is an ex convict. He is a liar. Doesn’t matter if he told 1 lie or 1,000, he is a liar. Doesn’t matter if he robbed 1 bank or 1,000, he is a “bank robber” and so on. Doesn’t matter if he killed 1 woman or 1,000, he is a murderer, and if he “only” killed her soul, what the heck…Jessica was the FIRST person my son killed…so you may be the 3rd or the 1st person this guy kills, what difference does it make? HE IS A BAD GUY, WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO KNOW?
NO CONTACT NO CONTACT NO CONTACT, get him out of your HEAD. Quit thinking about him. Come here, read and read and read, blog and blog and blog, but don’t give him the time of day or the money or the effort to find out MORE LIES, what difference does more make? NONE!
Sugar I have been down this road and so have the other bloggers here. If he is an ex con that is ALL your need to know. He tried to hurt you. That is all you need to know. He said he killed some people. That is ALL you need to know.
YOU DESERVE BETTER, I know that, and so do you! Stay away from him completely. (((hugs)))
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stolen_innocence says:
Hey everyone!!!!
I haven’t been here is quite a while. I had hard time moving on while reading the blog daily!! I almost felt as if somehow being here was contact…just a reminder. But I’m in a new stage and I can’t think of any place better to get advice support than here.
It was a year ago tonight when I first realized he was not who I tought. Well I knew two months earlier but refused to believe it. It has been a very hard year…I have not felt like myself and I questioned if I ever would. But I am definitely in a new place of healing….and with that trying to figure out how to really move on.
I met a great man about 6 months ago and we stated dating 4 months ago. I wasn’t intending to find a relationship, but I was following my therapists advice and “dating.” I actually had decided I wasn’t going to date anyone…that it was too soon..when we met. But we seemed to hit it off and now we are a couple. So here is the hard part. At 36 my only “real” relationship was with the spath…so I have no idea how to take in anything new. I’ve actually never had a “real relationship.” Everytime he does something wonderful I think “would a spath do that…is that love bombing” and everytime things aren’t PERFECT I wonder “is that the mask slipping.” I’m not perfect…I have moments that aren’t wonderful…and I have moment that I am a very loving/providing/encouraging person. Its not a mask or a love bomb with me so why do I wonder if it is with someone else???
The worst part is I know that I am being ridiculous…but I am almost scared not to be overly aware. I fee like I don’t trust ANYONE…I didnt even trust my therapist at first!!!!! I feel like I can totally trust him. He has never lied…all the “signs” to look for are not there….but then I read about all the people who were with spaths for 5, 6, 7 years before they saw it. Then I say what if. I have NO reason to not trust him EXCEPT for the past….and the past makes me hesitant with anyone new.
So…how do I give him the chance he deserves without constantly being on spath alert. I was talking with my sister the other day and told her how different this relationship feels…how I didn’t know what my feeling were because I new I would walk away if he broke “the rules”…when last time I would have done anything to save the spath…to save “us.” Are there “real”feelings when I know that I would walk away from it.
Ahhh…I don’t know..it is late and my mind is going 500 miles an hour…anyone who has been here who has any advise I’d love to hear it.
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skylar says:
innocence,
tell me what you are seeing. I might be up a little while longer. What is he doing?
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Stolen innocence,
I think it is that you don’t trust YOURSELF to keep you safe, it is that more, I think, than not trusting others.
I disagree with your therapist’s approach to get you out dating so soon after your break up with the P, I think we need to heal a lot more before we start trying to have a relationship with another person, but now that you are in the relationship….and if he seems like a good person, no lies, etc.
Sit down and look at 1) what you want out of any relationship iin the way of long term (or not long term) (2) be honest with yourself about this man, does he meet those criteria? (3) is he HONEST? AND KIND? (4) Does he have a good relationship with the community, with his friends, with his family? Is he a past or present drug problem, criminal? Is he arrogant? Does he always have to be right? Does he put you down, make you feel small?
I mean look at this guy under a microscope…if you don’t see any negatives about him then look at the positives…..do we have mutual interests? do our moral compasses point in the same direction? Is he the kind of man who would make a good partner/roommate/husband/father? Is his job stable? Is he good with managing his money? Does he have empathy? Am I sexually attracted to him and vice versa? Are his long term goas the same as mine?
Then the two of you go to a c
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Ox Drover says:
Oops, hit post before I was ready:
Then the two of you go to a couples counselor and work on the relationship honestly. He deserves to know what is going on in your mind if you “are a couple” and you think you might want to stay with him or if you think you might want to break up either.
It is obvious that you have some doubts about your own ability to judge a nice guy from a predator. I understand that fear, I’ve felt it myself, but you deserve to get over that fear and learn to trust yourself. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, so keep on reading here, go back and read the older articles in the archives under subject and author (the monthly ones only go back for a year and some of the better articles I think are some of the older ones) but READ AND READ AND READ! That knowlwedge will help you, I know it will! (((hugs))))
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kim frederick says:
Good Morning LF.
I wanted to start by saying Thank you to everybody who responded to me on Friday! I read the posts and felt truly cared for!
Star, Go to Costa Rica!!! Five long gruelling years of therapy sounds lke emotional root canal to me. We aren’t getting any younger! Have some fun. You deserve it!
LL, Thanks for your heart-felt post. I think we have a lot in common, and we probably trigger it in each-other. Not in a bad way, because we are both becoming aware of, and in contact with pain and shame and trauma and vulnerabilities, etc.etc. etc, that when we see it in others it makes it more acute in ourself. Does that make sense?
Bluejay, Thanks so much for your kind words of praise.
And Thanks to everyone else!
I read your responses on Friday afternoon, but I just didn’t have the energy to respond. I was so emotional I really felt a need to pull back my energy, a bit.
I had an eventful week-end. I decided to do some volunteer work for the Museum of History. I talked to the lady in charge of volunteers and she was trying to figure out where to use me….where my niche might be….I told her I wasn’t a computer person, and my works skills were limited to cleaning housesx and food and beverage work, but, I said I was educated in Literature and English….I asked, can you use that to your benefit? She shook her head and then said, “not unless you want to write a script”. I jumped on that and said, “Oh yeah. I would love that.”
I am not writing a whole play. I will be writing the script for one role. (A French lady in Waiting from the 1700″s to a Princess.) I have some research to do.
I was so stoked. I was excited. I love creative writing, and have always been good at it. Prose poems, and short stories, kids poems and storys. But I have never written a script.
So now I am doing what I always do. Doubting myself, and talking myself out of it. Why do I do that?
Another example: Acouple of years ago the New Year came, and I decided I was going to express my creatvity more….I was going to look out-side the box and find a way to make money doing something IWAS GOOD AT AND LIKED.
We cleaned the house of an elderly widower, who was retired from sime kind of executive career that had sent him traveling world wide. We like the guy enormously, but we complained to each-other about the rugs. He collected rugs from around the world and they were every where, and a real pain for us to vacume and vacume under. But this was a good thing for me and my new resolution, because, when I looked out onto his screened back porch, I saw such a drastic disconnect from the rest of his house. Gray pavement, grey cochina on the house. Very dull. Now you cant put an expensive imported carpet on a back porch and expose it to weather, but I suggested he let me paint a rug on his porch. All I had to do was suggest it, and he was excited. He pulled up some images on line and picked out one he liked.
I was excited and really pleased with myself…until about the next day when I started having my doubts. I again talked myself out of it.
Why? No wonder I am still cleaning houses.
I am good at the creeative stuff….and (honestly) not so great at waiting tables and cleaning.
Another thing: After being so emotional on Friday, thinking about trauma bonding and some childhood stuff, I dreamed my adorable 3 year old grand daughter told me I was mean to her a lot. She said it in an adult voice. I think she was my inner child telling me I’m mean to myself. What do you think?
I listened to most of onejoys links to Rene Girard she posted on Friday, and gave a lot of thought to Girards theory on religion and saacrifice (scape-goating) and how Christ made the need to scapegoat obsolete.
I woke up on Sunday and listened to a preacher on TV. Now that is unusual, since I don’t take well to the whole preaching hell and brim-stone, hypocracy, and holier than thou thing. But he was saying much the same thing as Girard, so he got my attention.
If God can forgive me for my short-comings why can’t I?
Another thing I realized…I hate to admit it, but I still think about my Spath most every day. Not in a sad and yearning way, but in a oh what a jerk kind of way. It’s been over three years. I wonder if holding on to the idea of oh what a jerk he was, keeps me from focusing on all the deeper, buried pain I’m becoming aware of. What do you think?
Hi to the Newbies. I’m glad you found us! I will take a break, now and have a cup of coffee, but I will comment to you on your posts in just a bit.
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Claudia says:
Kim, congratulations for the offer to write the script! That sounds like such a creative project. I’d love to read it once you’re done, if you wish to share it, since I love that period of French literature. It’s the salonnière epoch, when women had a lot of cultural influence and power.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Kimmie,
Darling I think you are making a major MAJOR BREAK THROUGH! WOW!!!!!! TOWANDA!!!!
First off great that you volunteered, and secondly great that you have realized that YOU are the one putting you down! (I think your interpretation of the dream is RIGHT ON!) Sometimes the symbols in our dreams show us where we are….I think of all the people Who have been UNKIND TO KIM, you are the WORST ONE! I know I was the person MOST unkind to Oxy, but now that I am being kind to Oxy she is doing a bunch better, so if you start being kind to Kim, then guess what?????? I bet ya Kim will start to feel better and be able to express her creative part.
I am so excited about your script! I think that is great! One of my friends works at our state historical museum and she does little “playlets” and tells stories, etc., about various eras in our state’s history. She is great at what she does and people love it. I competed against her once in the “liar’s contest” (telling tall tales) and I WON, which made me really happy cause she is so good!
I think YOU WILL BE WONDERFUL KIMMIE!!!! You continually amaze me with your knowledge of literature and writing. So GO FOR IT!!!! Expand your world! I’m so proud of you, GF!
As far as thinking about the jerk, well maybe thinking about him keeps you focused on other things than your own buried pains, but when you find yourself thinking about him, just start to tell yourself (your internal dialog) “Hey, he is gone, and good riddance and it is now time for me to think about how to make my life better.” You HAVE COME A LONG WAY, BABY!!!! Just since I have known you on LF! (((hugs))))
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Stargazer says:
Hi Kim,
I’m SO excited for you doing these creative things! You must be a very creative person. This is great because you can have multiple streams of income. The script writing and rug painting sound FABULOUS! I recently had the ephipany to start teaching dance to the rhythmically impaired. All it took was a free ad on Craig’s List and I had my first student a few weeks ago. I also hope to do a little painting this summer and maybe get into some light copyediting. I look forward to hearing how the script and painted rug turn out!
I also didn’t realize you were a grandmother. For some reason, I think of you as much younger. I’m trying to picture it. I obviously need to read more of your posts.
I’m needing some help and advice this morning. I will post it in a separate post.
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Stargazer says:
Okay, help needed. Here’s where I’m stuck.
I’m not sure if all of you read the story about the neighbor boy, but in brief, we were spending some time together over the summer and again this winter. He is a rock musician and very very weird but high energy and a lot of fun to be around. I had to jump start things with him because he is not one who likes to pursue women. But once they got jumpstarted, he was calling me often and we were going to the gym together. He was asking me out to lunch and movies (we never had a chance to go) and just being a good friend. It was really out of character for him, because he usually just lets women call him. During this time, we slept together a total of only 3 times, but I made sure he was the one in pursuit. All of a sudden in January, I called to take him up on his lunch offer after we’d played phone tag 3 times that week. I was planning to have a casual “talk” with him about where I stood. He never returned the call. This is now the second time he’s just apparently blown me off.
I just decided he wasn’t worth my time, and I decided to let it go. Several weeks ago, I ran into him at the gym a month later and he seemed to be trying to get my attention, but I just said hello and then blew him off.
Here’s the problem. I’m having a hard time letting go of it with no closure. I guess he affected me more than I wanted to admit. I really want to tell him he hurt me, but I don’t want to risk more hurt and humiliation. But I don’t seem to be able to get past it on my own. I can only have so many imaginary conversations, you know? I know he’s not a sociopath, and will at least listen and apologize to me. He’s done this in the past. But the rejection and blow-offs are just so painful.
I’m really tired of living in my little bubble and not telling people how I feel. Is there a way to get unstuck without talking to him? I haven’t met any other guys who get my attention.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Star,
Okay, you had a CASUAL relationship and it obviously meant more to you than it did to him. Maybe he found another woman he’s seeing and didn’t have the guts to tell you and so put “paid” to your relationship. People don’t always realize the effects they have on others socially.
My guess is that he is basically SHY and A SOCIAL MORON so I suggest that YOU put closed to it —and you can do so without telling him off.
First off what good would it accomplish to tell him he’s a social moron? Probably not a bit of good in the world.
YOU are the one obsessing over this thing. Ask yourself WHY? Why was this relationship with was I think more just a “friends with benefits” than anything else SO IMPORTANT TO YOU? WHY can’t you let it go as just “one of those thins?” He has made it obvious that he doesn’t want any more relationship with you by essentially going NC with you, but then trying to catch your eye again at the guy. Why not just LET IT GO?
I think, honestly the problem is on your end this time, not his. I think you are holding on to this “grudge” against him not answering your calls, but he has a RIGHT not to answer your calls just like you have a right to go NC with someone you don’t want to see. Maybe it WAS socially moronic and rude, but so what? What’s the big deal? He’s rude, so snub him right back and let it go. (((hugs))))
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Stargazer says:
I agree, Oxy. I just feel stuck in the feelings. It seems if I could just tell him he hurt me, I would release the feelings and I would feel better. I keep trying to do this on my own, but it’s not working very well. I just keep getting depressed. I know it’s about me, and I hate it! I just threw away a longterm therapist so I don’t know how to deal with this on my own.
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kim frederick says:
Okay, Star.
I went to the Library the other day to return movies, and browsed through the “Self Help” section, looking for something about trauma bonds…should have known better, it’s a small community library, very limited in scope. I found an older book entitled, “MEN Who Can’t Love” It’s about commitment phobics who run away from smart, attractive, strong, independant women, because these are exactly the women they could love, but won’t.
It’s kind of agrivating, cause spaths and Narcopaths do this too, but He never says that. At least not yet, I haven’t finished the book, yet.
Star, I have always identified with you. I think that you, (like me) are a sucker for the ones who do the whole, “come here/go away thing. I think it’s a hook to women like us, because it is so confusing, and ambivalent. It provokes our insecurity, but I think, also offers a challenge.
Can I share something a therapist said to me many years ago, when I was telling her that I was often hooked into this kind of dynamic. (I found it hard to believe at the time, and you may, too). She said that I was afraid of intimacy and commitment, too, and being attracted to that kkind of man insured that I couldn’t have the relatioship I said I wanted. I don’t know if that could be true of you, but it iss of me, and it’s because Of my trauma bonds.
I am so in agreement with you about being honest about your feelings. That is honest and healthy…but in this case, I suggest you let the neighbor boy go. If he cares that he hurt you at all, he will only run furthar and faster by feeling some kind of responsibilty for your feelings. He doesn’t want intimacy…he can’t handle it…so anytime you get to a certaain level, he will retreat, and this will trigger you, and you will pursue. If you retreat, he pursues, and yeah, it feels great until you respond and hit that maximum level he can tolerate and he will retreat again. This is a frustrating dance becuase you never get to any real intimacy, and it becomes a game.
I’m not sure this is what is happening to you, but it’s only food for thought.
I would forget him and focus on you and what you want.
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Stargazer says:
I’m also getting triggered into hurt and abandonment by a lot of my friends’ rude and inconsiderate behaviors. I have stopped going out to lunches with many of my friends because they cannot keep their cell phones off long enough to get through a one-hour lunch. But it seems EVERYONE does this. Is the whole world just rude and inconsiderate? Or am I just picking the wrong people? So I don’t say anything – I just stop inviting them to lunch. All of this leaves me feeling isolated because no one knows how I feel, and it seems pointless to tell them. The cell phone thing just seems like a sign of the times. Although I did make a new friend in my Spanish class who seems to “get” it about how rude the cell phone thing is.
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kim frederick says:
It is rude. It feels like a slap in the face…and it hurts.
If you value these friendships, this might be a time to speak up and practise being honest about your feelings.
If not, just let them go by the wayside.
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Stargazer says:
Kim, your words ring very true, too. I know this is exactly what is happening. And yes, I’m very afraid of intimacy. But I took some big risks with that other guy. I never took a risk with this one. I never really opened up emotionally to him at all. I was hoping to do it once to see how he responds. I know several successful relationships where the woman did the pursuing. I don’t really have that kind of confidence, and I’m a little too much of a woman to chase a guy. The problem is that I feel so stuck. It’s really good advice to stay away from emotionally unavailable men. But then how do I get unstuck if I cannot express myself?
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Star,
I agree with Kim’s assessment of this. BTW I don’t think that telling him he hurt you is going to give you any SIGNIFICANT “closure”—because he will I guess not respond to your telling him he hurt you in a way that will “satisfy” your need for some remorse in him.
YOUR feelings are YOURS. He did NOT “make” you feel this way by what he did, you choose to feel this way.
I will share what a therapist told me once and it makes sense. WE ARE IN CONTROL OF OUR FEELINGS.
Here’s the example he used. You are driving along a 2 lane road where there is NO place to pass, and you come up on an old man driving really slowly and YOU are in a hurry. You CAN NOT get around him and you are STUCK behind him. What do you do? Get mad, frustrated, angry? Sit there and say “this old fart is such a pain in the ass and he is going to make me late for my appointment and there’s nothing I can do about it, the old fart should pull over and let me pass, he is such an idiot, I’d like to slap him silly he doens’t need to be driving at his age any way. Can’t he see what he is doing to me?” etc etc.
OR
You can say to yourself when you start to feel the anger mount. “You know, there is nothing I can do about this old man’s speed and I AM going to be late, but I might as well sit back and enjoy the scenery and relax instead of getting worked up with anger at something I cant change.”
WE CAN CONTROL our feelings and thoughts. Or we can GIVE IN to them and feel POWERLESS.
I have found that MAKING MYSELF Do what I know is the right thing, and making myself THINK the right kind of thoughts (we all have this internal dialog going on in our heads and we can listen to it, argue with it, believe it, or tell it it’s full of cheet! and our FEELINGS will go along with the dialog and what we believe.)
So take charge of your FEELINGS and talk to yourself that “feels’ bad about this and wants to TELL THIS ASSHOLE HE HURT YOU!
Star the guy was RUDE, that’s the bottom line on it, and you got your feelings hurt because you expected him to not be what YOU considered rude. So now you want to justify your feelings and tell him off and make him feel bad like he made you feel bad.
There is a book I think you might profit from called “Games People Play” by Dr. Eric Berne and it describes our social rules and how we project feelings on to them in what he calls “games.” The book makes a lot of sense in terms of how we interact with each other and our feelings and our self justifications for what we say and do. It is called “transactional analysis” and includes some pretty serious games like “alcoholic” and other “games.” It is based on the trianglation of RESCUER-PERSECUTOR-VICTIM.
According to Dr. Berne’s TA You are posing yourself in this picture as the WOUNDED VICTIM and the neighbor boy as the PERSECUTOR, so you are trying to justify turning around and wounding him back by telling him how he hurt you (making you the persecutor then). If we engage in “games” we are continually changing “chairs” from rescuer to persecutor to victim like kids in a game of musical chairs. Each of us taking a turn in each chair in a dance of dysfunction to meet the needs of our emotional and internal children. Games preclude intimacy and by engaging in “games” we avoid intimacy and justify our avoidance.
Get the book, I think you might get some good information out of it. I know I have and I’ve used some of it to good advantage in being truly intimate with people and with avoiding those who are more into gamey behavior than intimacy.
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Stargazer says:
Thanks, Oxy, I will get the book. I’m looking for any help here. I recently read something about how to deal with an “imaginary relationship” when the guy is at your job, church, gym, etc. You have all these hurt and angry feelings whenever you see him, but you don’t want him to know. You’ve had a “casual” relationship with him that meant more to you. The thing you are supposed to do is to just say to him “I don’t feel comfortable around you, and I’d prefer if we kept our relationship just business. Please honor my request.” So I’m trying to construct something like this to say the next time I run into loverboy at the pool or at the gym or on his patio. If I just ignore him, it will give my angry feelings away. But if I smile and say hi, it will be a pretense, and I don’t want to pretend either.
I also think I’m missing the part about exactly HOW to be in control of your feelings. Does this mean you can never share them with anyone? How do you control them? How do you handle them? I would think there is a way you can share them without making the other person to be responsible for them? Isn’t this what intimacy is? Seems like all I ever do is control my feelings. The one time I shared them (last September) I actually got close to someone. It’s so confusing for me.
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kim frederick says:
Star, maybe pursue was too strong a word. Maybe I should have said approach, because that is what you are doing if you tell him how you feel. It is an approach.
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Ox Drover says:
ps Star, we posted over each other. About the cell phone thing at lunch. Yes, I think it is rude, but most people don’t think that way, but as far as your “friends” that you lunch with, I would kindly tell them or suggest “Hey, I really want to just visit with YOU, can we turn off our cell phones so we won’t be interrupted in our visit?” Then take yours out and turn it off.
“Friendships” have different levels too—and some are more intimate than others, and are based on some very superficial mutual linterests. So, depending on the level of the friendship is whether or not I would tell them about my FEELINGS or not.
In January a very meaningful relationship/friendship that I had felt very deeply about “died”—because my friend is so depressed about her own marriage (which is pretty rotten) but chose DENIAL over working on it, and she is irritable and big time depressed about it. I UNDERSTAND what is going on with her, but she is not willing to admit it or to fix it, and I can’t fix her. I wish the friendship could contiinue but it’s not going to but it is HER PROBLEM not mine. I can’t get her to see that what she is doing is harmful to herself and to me. When I told her “friends don’t talk to friends the way you talked to me.” She replied, “well, that’s what best friends are for, to fight and then make up” and I said, “No, that is NOT what friends are for, friends are to treat each other well.” She didn’t have an answer for that. I haven’t heard a word from her since I left her house in Mid January.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
star – i think oxy may be being generous when she calls this guy a social moron. i think he is a player, and possibly has a drug problem – now why do i say that? his profession, and his on again/ off again interest and very little sexual appetite (that’s the drug part). you know that saying, ‘he’s just not that into you’, well here it is in real life. the guy is def a moron, but i think he also used you.
so, how to get closure – you are hooked ’cause the little f****** did the bait and discard with you – aka the trauma bond jerk. so work on releasing some of the trauma bond connection with him.
i like your idea of saying, ‘it’s just professional’ as a way of dealing with him in the outer world – TAKE away the power you have given him.
this so isn’t about him. it’s about how you are feeling, and what risks you are ready to take/ not take. the guy is a loser, i’d be my last dollar on it star – you are not a loser. there is no fit here. you want to connect, you will never connect at a deep and consistent level with him – he will always offer a bit, then run (aka jerk the trauma bond).
keep telling yourself he is a jerk, and YOU deserve better.
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kim frederick says:
I had a history of denying, or not even recognizing my feelings. My therapy was more about experiencing my feelings and owning them, then working through them. It did become very important to me to be honest with people, but, they had to be people who were in REAL relationships with me. The relationship had to be savable in order for me to waste my time and energy.
I don’t think this relationship is good for you. I think it brings out all your vulnerabilitys ,and that you are spending a lot of time and energy in your head about it.
That is probably what Oxy means about controlling your emotions. You don’t have to choose to stir them up. I know it’s hard not to obsess, but it’s not good for you, and it enables you to act, only to repeat the same old pattern.
Maybe you NEED to tell him he hurt you so you can find out for sure if there’s any hope for the relationship you want, but, in my opinion, you can expect a rinse and repeat episode, and those only make it worse, cause they reinforce the trauma bond.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Star – kim said: ‘It did become very important to me to be honest with people, but, they had to be people who were in REAL relationships with me. The relationship had to be savable in order for me to waste my time and energy.’ THIS IS YOUR MAKER AS TO WHETHER OR NOT TO BOTHER REVEALING YOUR FEELINGS TO OTHERS!
kim: THIS IS A HUGE MARKER FOR ME – IF I AM UP IN MY HEAD, IT’S NOT A GOOD RELATIONSHIP
‘I think it brings out all your vulnerabilitys ,and that you are spending a lot of time and energy in your head about it.’
NICE ONES, KIM!
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Stargazer says:
Thanks, Oxy. I’m sitting here crying, and I’m not sure why. Your story reminded me of many of my “past” friendships I’ve had to give up, too. And I suppose I will be giving up a few more now who cannot put their cell phones down. They say “oh it might be an emergency with my family.” Well I don’t have a family (or a cell phone for that matter), so what can I say to that? It still hurts. I don’t want to be reminded that I’m always second fiddle to everyone every minute of the day. There are times when I would like to be a priority to my friends. After all, I make quality time for them. They all know how I feel because I’ve told them. But you know the canned answer….”I agree, it’s rude. I only answer my cell phone because……….” Everyone has a justification. I don’t get it. I remember even having this discussion with the guy who does my hair. He completely agreed with me about how rude it is. But the last time I was at his house getting my hair done, he was talking most of the time to his family on his cell phone while doing my hair. This is one of the reasons I want to move to Costa Rica. People are not like that there. They have the ability to be 100% present. It’s very refreshing. I actually had hours and hours of bus rides without having to listen to anyone’s loud cell phone conversations. I hope it never changes there.
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kim frederick says:
Good advise, Onejoy.
One thing I really identified with when I read that trauma bond article was that victims often identify with the abuser. That they snatch a snippet of power when they leave, or threaten to leave, and it’s a rush of pleasure because we have felt so powerless for so long. It lulls us into believing that we can control the abuser, and change the behavior that is hurting us, and we get kind of hooked on this sensation. Especially when the abuser returns and cries and promises he will change.
This was certainly true of me in my last spathy relationship.
But here is my thought. We have to make a choice between momentary power surge rushes, and genuine intimacy, because the power surge won’t last and very soon we will be in the one down position again. There will never be any intimacy in this kind of relationship. Ever. Then the cycle repeats and eventually we threaten to leave or do leave, and we feel the exhilarating sensation of power, once again.
The hook goes deeper every time.
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skylar says:
Kim,
YES!!!
This is what you were MEANT TO DO! No one could do it better. They are soooo lucky to have found you!
I also listened to most of the 5th Rene Girard tape late last night. I had crazy dreams all night. Then, in the dream, I was on the edge of a giant chess board and a war was going to held there. The warriors were going to be giant robots. It was like a sci-fi movie. There was a huge clash, they all appeared to destroy each other. Then it turns out humans and evil creatures were at war. During the war all the humans disappeared and only some evil creatures were left on the chess board. But the evil ones were looking around confused. The couldn’t see anymore humans to kill but the war/game wasn’t over yet. There was still a “presence” that they hadn’t killed. They looked at me, and I said, “don’t look at me, I’m not involved in this game – just watching”. I didn’t feel safe. Behind me was a cupboard and I considered hiding in it. I bumped it and the door popped open, there were a few items in it, including what looked like a baby doll. But I knew it wasn’t a baby doll, it was the infant Jesus. It was His presence that was preventing the evil ones from winning, but they couldn’t see Him. I ran away to the other side of the board and hid behind a desk. Then I regretted it. I thought I should have stayed by the infant. I waffled. I didn’t know where to stand. then I woke up. That’s what happens when you listen to Rene Girard before bed!
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Stargazer says:
Thanks, one joy,
I think it’s true. I suppose none of my current friendships are worth fighting for at this point. The friends all seem to be inconsiderate or addicted to drama. They are fun to work out with or share about certain things with. But they are not real friends. I know I need to meet more decent people. It’s a very lonely place to be – in between. I’m actually considering throwing pearls to a bunch of swine rather than just being alone and lonely.
I’m still wishing there was some way to just deal with the feelings without having to actually share them with these people.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Star – being on lf has really opened my eyes to what we deserve, and what we need to stop putting up with – we need to set the bar higher. In my case, i am willing to be alone (and i mean sans friends and family, not just lover/ partner) if i cannot get good people in my life. period. i will develop my interior life more deeply, and start to figure out and set new goals for myself.
I have some business colleagues, and although that isn’t soul nourishing, it does give me some social interaction. My work is highly interactive (phttt!), so i have lots of shallow contact with people. One of my business contacts brought me groceries when i was so sick last week. friendly thing to do, but it doesn’t make her my friend.
We have to ‘vote with our feet’ Star. We have to walk away from those who don’t treat us well. And then live with the vacuum until it is filled with something good, even if that takes a long time. I, for one, don’t want to be crying out for connection in a room full of ‘friends.’ no more.
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Ox Drover says:
Star, Good, I think the book will give you some good ideas about working on your feelings.
Go back and read the story I wrote about the person driving behind the old and slow driver—it is like SELF TALK. When you start to feel your emotions boil up, and you start to think inside your head “self talk” that you are angry or that you are this or you are that, say STOP! I do not have to feel this anger (or whatever the feeling is) this is something I can control.
Yes, sharing our feelings with other is intimacy—under some circumstances with the right person. Sharing our desires, our feelings, our fears with another can be very validating and confirming. But being able to share them with OURSELVES is also valuable and being able to see that we are not at the MERCY of our feelings and thoughts as much as we tend to think we are. I’ll see what other books on these subjects I can come up with too. I know there’s another one and I’ll see if I can figure out which one it is—Oh, I know a GREAT ONE— “a mind of its own, how your brain distorts and deceives” by Cordelia Fine. It is a great one too. That book shows how we hold on to opinions even in the face of evidence to show that they are NOT true. Both of the books I named are good books for helping us see ourselves a bit from the outside in rather than the other way around. Learning and changing our behavior is work though,, and I’ve still got a lot more to do so I’m not telling you I have it all down pat myself. LOL Im just on a journey toward being a better and happier person myself. (((hugs))))
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Stargazer says:
Really what I wish I could do is just move. Then I would never have to see or deal with this loser again. But until I find a good place to move to, I’m stuck here for a while. I will run into him at the pool and at the gym or around the neighborhood. I guess I’ll just ignore him. I don’t even really need to speak to him. I hate pretenses, but I’ll just pretend I don’t even see him. If he ever cycles around again and acts interested, I will just continue to ignore him. I won’t fall for the bait and hook. He may not be a sociopath, but he’s the next cousin to one. I still have so much work to do. Ugh.
I was hoping the massage would loosen up some emotions yesterday. But instead, I ended up giving massage instruction to the therapist. He is just out of school and very very sweet, but not on the same level as I am so I didn’t feel like it was as nurturing as I would have liked. But it only cost $33 and now he and his partner are going to do trades at my house with me, so it was a good professional situation.
I guess I will just feel depressed for a while until I can figure out a way to get unstuck. I’m so used to it. But I will take the advice given and just ignore the loser neighbor. I truly don’t understand why people play games like this. I will read the book.
Thank you Oxy, kim, and one joy, for being here for me today. You are awesome. The time you took to give me your thoughtful, heartfelt advice is truly appreciated.
One of my neighbors who is addicted to her cell phone works out with me on Mondays and Fridays at 9:15. But usually I have to call her and wake her up or remind her to be on time. I stopped doing it. So then she didn’t show up on Friday. We talked in the evening. She asked me “what happened this morning? We didn’t work out.” I said. “We didn’t work out because you didn’t come over at 9:15.” She said, “I guess I slept in late.” I said, “Oh.” I’m actually happier working out alone than babysitting a 62 year old woman to show up for her appointments. What is fucking wrong with people? *^&)(&*(&&^%
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skylar says:
Star,
You’ve gotten some really great advice from OneJoy, Kim and Oxy.
You control your feelings by DECIDING what you will feel. It’s like I was writing about before about integrating all your senses. Don’t just use your heart here, use your head to LEAD your heart.
In this case, you will observe his behavior toward you and write it down. so far he has been HOT and COLD, alternately….hmmm… sounds familiar… WHO do we know that DOES THAT? Anybody, have an answer? I feel like I’ve heard about that kind of behavior — somewhere?
Well, I’m sure it will come to me but, lets continue, what else has he done? Well, he a had sex with you but doesn’t treat you very nicely and hurt your feelings….also sounds familiar…
Well anyway, also look at the way he leads his life. Does he have a job other than music? car? we know he smokes pot.
Star, remember that the reason people can manipulate other people is because they do it sooooo nicely. They don’t manipulate with a stick, they use a carrot. Anyone can seem as nice as pie, it costs nothing to pretend if they get what they want and usually a manipulator just wants to flex his manipulator muscle. For fun.
So, you control your feeling by choosing how you think:
You had your roll in the hay. leave it at that. smile at him when you see him and it will be genuine because you are thinking about the great sex you had. Next, think of what a simpleton, pot-smoker he is, which is a turnoff, so it will dampen the attraction. Then think of how he will look and live in 10 or 20 years: loser, bald, old, pot-smoker. Continue smiling, wave good-bye.
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Stargazer says:
Oxy, I so appreciate your time and wisdom. If it wouldn’t be too much trouble, would you mind posting both books or any others you think of all together in one post? I’ll write them down and get them from the library.
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kim frederick says:
Star, remember the other day when I was so emotional, and posted about my sad feelings? I said the only thing I could attribute it to was being triggered by reading about trauma bonds, but something else happened the day before.
the lady from the Historical museum was supposed to come out and talk to me about my volunteering, and she never showed up. (It was a misunderstanding, I will explain in a minute) but I had been a little nervious about it the entire day before. I had trouble falling asleep. I rearrainged my toddlar schedual so they wouldn’t be eating lunch when she got here. I washed my favorite out fit, and picked up ALL the kids toys. I did the dishes early and swept the lunch crumbs up off the floor. I put a pot of coffee on 15 minutes before she was schedualed to arrive, so I could offer her coffee.
I tried to call her, when she was about half an hour late to no avail. I was afraid she had tried to call me for directions, and I had somehow missed the call. (See how fast I blame myself?)
Finally, late in the afternoon I got her, and she said that she had tried to call me late in the Afternoon to cancel, and left a msg on my daughters phone. Okay. No problem, we re schedualled, and I didn’t blame her. It was an honest misunderstanding…but, I’d already had hours to experience those feelings of NOT BEING A PRIORITY, and feeling unimportant, and not even knowing why my company didn’t show up.
These feeling are very familiar to me, too, Sky.
This was a constant feeling in my marriage to the N Navy recruiter, and I just lived with it for years. It goes very deep, and is easily triggered. You are not alone with that one.
We have to become conscience enough to recognize who is triggering this in us, and then to decide if they are important enough to approach with our very deep sadness, conflict, fears and vulnerability.
Sometimes they are worth it, and they never intended to hurt us, or maybe they were just ignorant, but wo’t do it again, or maybe it’s an honest mistake….but it’s in your discernment. You have to become aware of yourself enough to know that all these feelings ARE red flags for you. And me.
So think very carefully about these friends and your relationship with the neighbor boy.
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Stargazer says:
Thank you, sky. I will actually try to do this. I smiled at him in the gym and walked by. I will try to just be the friendly neighbor and that’s it.
This has been a lot of information to process, but I am going to think about what you have all said. I completely get the part about choosing what you feel, but sometimes I really just feel stuck and like I need a release. I honestly don’t know how to do this sometimes. I have some energy work planned in a few weeks. I hope I feel safe enough with this person to really do some work. He comes with very high recommendations from someone whose opinion I trust.
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Stargazer says:
Thanks for your post, kim (we’re posting over each other). None of the people in my life are worthy of sharing anything deep with. It’s kind of tough to see it, but good to know that I deserve better. The life I have now is better than any life I’ve ever had before. And I still deserve better. I don’t know where to find this better living situation and better friends. But I’ll just put it out to the universe and see what happens.
I will just work on being “right” for myself and maybe the right friends and boyfriends will be drawn to me.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Star,
Your “friend” had come to depend on YOU to be her wake up alarm, letting YOU take responsibility for her getting up and out to exercise. YOU are responsible for YOU and she is responsible for HERSELF.
When we TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for others that they should take for themselves, we are ENABLING them to foist that responsibility on us and then we RESENT IT.
So, by not continuing to be responsible for her getting up, you are allowing her to be responsible for herself.
When you ASK someone to not spend their time with you on their cell phones and they CONTINUE this, then they are saying in effect “I really don’t care what your feelings are” so you get a very clear MESSAGE BY HOW SOMEONE ACTS.
Look at how people BEHAVE toward you and that is what their feelings are. I realized with my long-time friend that she was having some real issues in her life, but she chose not to address them in a way that I felt was appropriate. I had called her out once about 3 years ago about the SNARKY comments to me and she had apologized and STOPPED them completely. Her behavior was much better and stayed consistent until RECENTLY when I could see by several things that she was clinically depressed, unhappy, and big time in denial. She wanted to play the game of “let’s pretend I didnt’ say anything nasty and hateful to you repeatedly” and I’m not up for that game any more. I’ve played it all my life and now I refuse to play it or to allow someone else to show disrespect and rancor toward me.
My “friend” is NOT a social moron, she knows when she is treating me poorly…but she only treats people she is “close” to that poorly, she is very polite to others. DUH? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
To me, being close to someone doesn’t give you a license to hurt them and expect forgiveness.
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kim frederick says:
Skylar, LOL. Yaeh. Maybe you shouldn’t study Girard so close to bed time.
I am thinking about your dream. Want some help anylizing it? Give me couple of minutes to digest.
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Ox Drover says:
“Games People Play” by Eric Berne
“A mind of its own, How your Brain Distorts and Deceives” by Cordelia Fine.
If your local library doesn’t have them it can probably order them inter-library loan. They are actually really cheap used off Amazon dot com or barnes and noble dot com.
I’m making an effort to get out and do more too…going to a meeting tonight of a local genealogy group. They had requested a donation of a book of county history I had published several years ago and I have put the book aside to take to them for months, but I’m going tonight and take it to their meeting. Going out to some of the cultural activities in our area too. We have 3 universities in my neigthbohood and there are LOTS of free events and concerts and plays to go to and I’m going to take advantage of them as long as I can afford the cost of the gas to get there. Beats going to bars and watching the drunks beat each other up! LOL
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skylar says:
Kim,
I’d love your take on it.
There are some things that are obvious to me, but you may see stuff that I don’t.
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