The sociopath in couples therapy
PDF I do much couples therapy, and occasionally have had the interesting, if disconcerting, experience where one of the partners is a sociopath, or has significant sociopathic tendencies.
Unsurprisingly, it is always the nonsociopathic partner who is occasionally successful in dragging his or her sociopathic counterpart to counseling. The sociopathic partner, just as predictably, will have no collaborative interest in the relationship’s improvement. However, he or she may be sufficiently selfishly and manipulatively motivated to attend.
For instance, the relationship may offer conveniences the sociopathic partner does not want to see end. The nonsociopathic partner may have reached wit’s end and may really be prepared to end the relationship, arousing the sociopathic partner’s concerns that the gravy-train, as it were, may be over.
This can be the sociopath’s inducement to try to “patch things up with,” to “settle down” the nonsociopathic partner, in order to salvage the perks of the relationship. (The quoted phrases are meant to capture the sociopath’s condescending, self-serving thinking.)
The couples therapy environment provides little cover for the sociopath who, for this reason, will prefer generally to avoid it. The reason that sociopaths fare so poorly in disguising their sociopathy in a couples therapy situation is that, facing an aggrieved partner, the sociopath will struggle, and often fail, to produce responses of convincing sincerity and depth.
In other words, the sociopath’s fundamental defects of empathy and sincerity, in the emotional hotseat of couples counseling, are at risk of being flagrantly unmasked—sooner, typically, than in individual (court-mandated) counseling, where the sociopath, safe from the spontaneous challenges and disclosures of his or her abused partner, can more effectively misrepresent and deceive.
Couples counseling is inadvisable when a partner is a suspected sociopath for several reasons. Among them:
1) The therapist does not want to enable the belief (especially the nonsociopathic partner’s belief) that a nonabusive, honest relationship can possibly evolve with a sociopathic partner.
2) It is inherently humiliating for the nonsociopathic partner to make him or herself vulnerable to a partner whose only capable response to that vulnerability is exploitative. The therapist does not want to collude in this process.
3) There is the risk that the sociopathic partner, who is probably blaming and possibly vengeful, will use his or her partner’s complaints during the session as a basis, after the session, to punish him or her for having had the audacity to expose him or her.
This risk, incidentally, applies to any abusive individual in couples therapy. Narcissists’ abusiveness in this situation will arise most likely from their sense of entitlement—for instance that their partners owe it to them to always make them look, and feel, good (in private and public).
For sociopaths, exposure may be experienced as a sort of defeat: their mask is uncovered; their leverage as an operator—and with it their parasitical lifestyle—is threatened. Their game may be over. They may be mad.
One accidental benefit of stumbling upon a sociopath in couples therapy is the chance it affords the therapist (who recognizes it) to be a professional (and desperately needed) witness for the nonsociopathic partner.
The therapist may be in a position to provide the vulnerable partner, in subsequent individual sessions (after the couples counseling has been appropriately terminated), critical validation, information, and lifesaving support.
All of this presupposes the therapist’s ability to identify the sociopathic partner. When the couples therapist fails to identify that he or she is dealing with a couple in which one of the partners is sociopathic, the ensuing counseling process will undermine all of the nonsociopathic partner’s interests.
In failing to expose the sociopath, the counseling, by definition, will be abetting the sociopath. It will be structured on the false pretense that two reasonable clients are having problems with each other that they’ve co-created, which will not be the case. This false assumption will support the unequal, exploitative playing-field the sociopath has sewn all along.
For this reason—especially if your self-esteem has been battered in a relationship—I encourage you to explore assertively with a prospective therapist the extent of his or her experience with narcissistic and sociopathic personalities. Your inquiry should be met with absolute respect. A defensive response should rule the therapist out, as should vague, general responses, along the lines of, “Well, yes, I’ve worked with these kinds of clients. Is that what you’re asking?”
The answer is “no.” That’s not what you are asking. You are asking for a more substantive response, characterized by the therapist’s interest and patience to discuss in some depth his or her clinical background with the personality-disordered population.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2008 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
henry says:
Howdy Ya’ll I see me therapist every two week’s and with the price of gas, I dont’ want to drive one hour to meditate. I am going to tell her next time “HEY” I need to talk about this MIKE thing, yes I realize it is my dysfunctional life from childhood that has helped bring me to this tuff life lesson. It has caused me to look back and really dig deep in about my past. I have educated myself about me over the past 4 months. I accept my part in having low self esteem, perhaps some co-dependecy issue’s. But Mike was 100% a cluster B. He can’t be fixed but I can be. I have a need to vent about the the past three year’s of him living with me, about the past five or more years of knowing him. I want to tell someone how he decieved me, maybe in great detail. The enormity of the lie’s and deciet are still fresh in my mind. I can’t let that go and focus on building a better me. I want to be validated or proved wrong in my opinion of what he is and what happened. I need to get the hurt out. I want to look someone in the eye and say “I knew he was using me but never in my life did I realize how much so”, I want to say ” I thot once he was finally, permantly gone I would have a great sense of relief, but instead I have this obsessive feeling of loss” and Takingmeback – thanks for telling me not to rush my recovery, that it is normal to feel the pain and that I shoud just do that~~~! I don’t want to be a whiner a complainer a victim, but I was victimized and I know why. I just still have problems believeing that I was sleeping with the enemy…. I went to Borders and got the books I ordered, “the sociopath nest door” and “without conscience” I have read so much, googled and googled. To me I am with out doubt that he is BPD P and the physciatrist said he was ( and he said they would just as soon kill you as look at you ) and trying to fix them is like pissin on a forest fire…The only source of talking about it is here. Yes I want to move on, I am confident that I will……it’s just so frustrating that the (P) and (BPD) of our life will never understand the pain we are in, or even care. I think that is my need to vent and cry about the unjust done to us by evil actor’s out for what ever they can get… Too con someone by pretending to be everything you ever dreamed of, just has only one explanation }EVIL{ all he wanted was an address, and a mean’s too further exploit other’s to fullfill his own desire’s…it’s make’s me mad…
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takingmeback says:
Henry,
You most certainly do need to talk to someone in person about it and to be validated. That is so important. It’s so helpful. The more you can talk about it the more you can hear yourself saying the words you type here. Including the words that you are not a whiner and complainer, you were victimized. You are getting stronger. You are living in the truth. You are a victor in the end of all things. You were hurt badly and you didn’t deserve it. Not at all!!!
The confusion and need for verification and validation about M is normal too. Sometimes doubt creeps in and then I read LF and there’s no question. No doubt. He is what he is and he will always be that way. So will M. Don’t forget they hide their illness but you saw it up close. You were dealing with one very sick individual. Honestly, I got to the point where I didn’t focus on exactly what his diagnosis is but what he did. What they did Henry was abnormal and abusive and crazy making.
I am so glad you’re going to tell your therapist that you need to talk. That is wonderful! That time is about you and you need to use it in ways that help you. Part of what I learned is that I didn’t assert myself consistently. People could easily use guilt and I would back down. Now I don’t do that. I assert what I need. It isn’t being mean or selfish, it’s healthy. I am not mean nor do I ask for anything outlandish. But like with your therapist, it’s not about offending her by saying that your needs are not about meditating, they’re about talking things through. Getting the validation you need and addressing how to move forward. Go get ‘em Henry!!!
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henry says:
and this has me upset with me….he had an address book when we got together that was worn out, I bought him a new one, he wrote down every family member’s names and birthdate, all his work (friend’s) past and current. none of these people (family included ever called or wrote him. he never wrote down my birthday. he never remembered it, he never bought me as much as a card. he resented it when i bought him xmas gift’s because he didnt want to have to be out the time involved in buying me anything. Well my birthday just passed ( why in the fricken F–k) was I hoping for a birthday card from HIM?????????????????somebody shoot me……………
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henry says:
hiya takingmeback hope all is good with you……thanks for your response take care and tell bev and jane and oxy hello
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Happy birthday Henry, if it’s any consolation, if I lived close I’d be there with flowers. Love ya man
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
I’ve missed a lot, again.. my two cents about therapists: It’s obvious that therapists are caring people for the most part, and want to help, that’s why they are drawn to the helping professions in the first place.
From what I’ve seen, therapists are just like everyone else, the more they are exposed to sociopaths the more easily they learn to spot them. Same goes for those in all the other helping professions.
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takingmeback says:
Happy Belated Birthday Henry! I’ll pass the hello’s along. Just like with Kat I’d have sent you something had I known too! Had Oxy and Bev and Jane all known you’d have gifts piled high! We love ya!
You’re so not alone. My ex used to complain that he had to get this card out and that card out for people’s birthdays. He made such a point of mentioning this to me. Then he told me ahead of time what he got me for mine. It was tiny compared to what I had gotten him on his. But I didn’t notice this until later. Anyhow, I got nothing. He lied. Never bought a thing. Not a card, not a call, nothing to even acknowledge that it was my birthday. When I asked him about this later he said he figured I didn’t want anything from him. Remember that what they say to you is about them. So the truth is he didn’t want to give me anything.
During the idealization stage he constantly bought me things. But this was to buy me. I came to realize that. So I got rid of everything he gave me. The biggest gift he had the nerve to ask that I give it back. I did. The second biggest gift I actually drove up to where he lives and gave it to his girlfriend with a letter telling the truth. I told her he bought me with gifts and I couldn’t give this one directly back to him and it was the last thing I had of the gifts. I told her to do what she wants with it. I suspected he had never broken up with her so I told her details of our time together and his techniques of abuse so she could check them out herself. Of course she told him and he retaliated but I could rest having gotten rid of everything and having warned her.
His retaliation came with an email to me saying “thank you for doing what I didn’t have the balls to do.” It was so hard not to respond saying, “yes, I’ve seen your balls and you’re right.” Then he sent a letter to one of my co-workers full of lies. That was his tit-for-tat. Then he hacked into my computer and make it oh soo obvious who did it by blocking any way that I could contact his g/f. I guess he didn’t figure that I could contact her from another computer LOL. He could only hide her from mine. I had no interest in contacting her thought because I said what I needed to in the letter. That paid off because now I have a new laptop LOL. What a great excuse to have to get a new computer. He’s such an idiot.
But see how he sent me a nice email thanking me and then stabbed me in the back with my co-worker? Oh, we laughed for hours!!! When you learn the traits of the disorder they’re much easier to figure out. You know what’s coming down the pike and you can laugh when they do it. I just prayed though that his g/f wouldn’t tell him. I asked her not to telling her that he would retaliate. I’m just glad that’s all he’s done. But truthfully I’m aware that there could be more that I don’t know about and it might show somewhere down the pike. I just hope not.
But I’m doing well Henry save one massive trigger shown earlier on this thread. Aside from that all is good. Keeping busy and trying to get back into the swing of life. Time does prove that it gets better. Take care of yourself. Trust in time and know that you’re getting there. I’m glad M didn’t send you a card. Only because I consider anything from them being tainted like bad juju LOL. I don’t want anything connecting me to them! Sending you a virtual hug!
Kat,
Thanks. You made a great point. I think on the outside anyone can read about these folks but once you’ve been exposed to one in your personal life you can spot them so easily. I have put it to the test and I guess I should feel validated as I’ve been right each time but I also feel sad as this is an area I wish I wasn’t right about. I wish I didn’t have to know and it didn’t exist. But in the long run it pays off.
Hope you’re doing well!
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James says:
Well to come to the aid of those “good” therapist. I have the good fortune of knowing both the good and bad. And then also have learned how to filter them to receive good honest and sound advise from those therapist that can and will aid me in understand my current situation and present relationships. In fact I am a very big supporter and advocate for therapy. Without the help of many good and healthy relationships with good therapist I know I wouldn’t be the person I am today.
But allow me to say that as a laymen I too see family members friends and co-workers that refuse to see the “cycle of abuse” and stay in these dysfunctional relationships thru denial and fear of “being alone”. What surprises me is just how much those same people are “alone” when dealing with their own dysfunctional relationships. I guess the old saying is kind of true that “some people can’t be help”. But the way I see it is that “some people don’t want to be helped” So whenever I do run into someone who “wants” help but not really. I just tell them it is all about choices and that one can change oneself but never other person and pray someday (before it is to late) they will wake up and really really understand that!
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Jen2008 says:
The thing that stood out to me the most in Dr. Steve’s article is this: “I encourage you to explore assertively with a prospective therapist the extent of his or her experience with narcissistic and sociopathic personalities. Your inquiry should be met with absolute respect. A defensive response should rule the therapist out, as should vague, general responses, along the lines of, “Well, yes, I’ve worked with these kinds of clients. Is that what you’re asking?”
Just as in every other profession, there are good therapists and bad ones, with varying qualifications and expertise. Just because a therapist holds the title does not make them a good, caring, or even competent professional, just as all religious figures are not good people. I can see both sides of the coin, because the first therapist I went to was horrible. My first visit I had to sign a contract for X number of visits, in addition to completing a form specifying what problems I was having and what I hoped to achieve in therapy. I listed on the form that I was involved in a relationship that I knew was bad for me but I could not seem to leave it and I did not understand why and I wanted to figure out what was wrong with me etc. I literally told this therapist first session that I felt lrobotic and was acting contrary to my best interests, and although I knew it I didn’t understand it. I specifically said I thought my man might be a sociopath (this because I had seen Scott Peterson on tv and heard all the outrageous lies–like being at the Eifel Tower–and my ex also engaged in that outlandish lying behavior.) In addition, I told her that unbenownst to me on initial involvement) he had a lengthycriminal record (mainly DUI’s, PI’s, alluding police, menacing), had had six prior marriage/cohabitations, kept getting decent jobs and climbing the ladder into lower level management, then would either get fired or on impulse quit (saying stuff like he just got tired of working there, or was tired of the bullshit)–he always buddied up to higher level management and no matter where he went the person directly above him usually ended up getting fired and he would get their job–whether he orchestrated this I don’t know, but I suspect he did. He also had an alcohol problem, and had started to use cocaine and smoke crack. He was sneaky and vindictive with people who crossed him, and although he initially presented himself as Mr. Clean, Mr. Honest, Mr. aPerfect match, it was all an illusion, as he turned out to be NOTHING like his inital presentation. Whenever I tried to leave he would threaten me and would sometimes destroy property. However, he often left for hours or days at a time with no explanation, then would show back up just as if nothing had happened and I think he honestly didn’t even get why I would be upset as his attitude was like, I left, I’m back, problems over, get over it, it is no big deal, so stop making it one by living in the past. But anyway by the time I went to therapy I had NO friends, no family within several hundred miles of me, and I was a wreck. Session #2 this therapist leaned back in her chair, raised an eyebrow and said “IF what you’re telling me is true, then he’s just a criminal, why are you with a criminal, just leave him.” HELLO, that is why I was in her office, because I felt bound to this man I KNEW I needed to leave, yet I couldn’t, and I wanted to find out why, what was wrong with me, and work on that. I heard that “IF what you are telling me is true” statement numerous times thru the next four session. I also had my question of whether he could possibly be a sociopath shot down. She had no problem dragging out her DSM, dramatically flipping pages, then telling me he was likely just bipolar (which she discussed in depth, although to me it didn’t sound as if it fit), and then she said he might also have some narcissistic tendencies. Session #4 she told me “I’m getting frustrated with you. We talk about the same thing each time you come in.” I’m still not sure exactly what I was “supposed” to be talking about. However, in retrospect, it would have been most helpful to me if she had broached the subject of stockholm syndrome or traumatic bonding. Oh, I forgot to mention that I also told her in first session that he had just told me I had gotten played, that I was a dumb C*** and he had gotten over on me better than any other woman. (this was during a few days period when he discarded me, before boomerangin back into my life). I don’t know if a different approach to therapy would have helped me at that point, but I do know this approach seemed to make things worse. I attended for my contractual obligation of six visits, but I had the feeling this therapist thought I was exaggerating and making alot of this stuff up. I ended up staying with the guy nearly another year, then when I left he began stalking me, terrorizing me and the nightmare really began at that point. I ended up moving without a real place to go, then eventually selling my place. It was at this point I sought therapy again as he had begun to call again and I was afraid if he ever ended up at my door, that although I was adamant I would not reconnect with this a**hole or even open the door, well……..I might. I say this because I had come to understand–although I wasn’t in therapy yet–that whenever I was around this guy for some reason my mind seemed to go on some sort of autopilot, out of my control, and I didn’t understand it. I mean intellectually I could know this is not in my best interest, but I would become almost robotic, for lack of a better way to put it. The second therapist was WONDERFUL. I learned about stockholm syndrome, traumatic bonding, and also after reviewing my ex’s history of employment, criminality, relationships, etc. and discussing many other thingshe had done, both in the relationship and outside the relationship with others, then completing a 90 question form (one of Hare’s) the therapist told me they felt my ex was likely an “extreme psychopath”, althoug of course, that is not an “official diagnosis”. Not only did I learn WHY I had been behaving as I did, but I also never once heard the words, “IF what you’re telling me is true….” from this therapist. She told me some books to read on psychopathy and also gave me really helpful info on managing intrusive thoughts etc. and healing. Perhaps, with the former therapist, she may work well with some people and she may be the most caring person in the world, but that wasn’t my perspective, but I am also mindful that I was in a rather poor state of mind at the time, so my perceptions could also be off. But the second therapist really was a Godsend to me and although she didn’t coddle me in the least, she inspired me and helped provide me with the tools I needed to learn to do the work on myself in order to heal. I think having someone help me understand my ex was highly manipulative, that each time he told me that “I” or someone else he screwed over “deserved it”, or engaged in other pity plays or excuse making, that it was just bullshit game playing on his part. Just being validated and believed helped me the most, I think.
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Jen2008 says:
Oh jeez, sorry for the lack of breaks in that long post. I’ll be sure to insert breaks in any future posts. I can see this one is gonna be a nightmare for anyone trying to read it. Sooooorry.
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takingmeback says:
Jen2008,
No problems with your post LOL. It’s the content of what you wrote, not the breaks that is important
) I was too intrigued by your post to notice!
I have experienced and heard stories like yours before and it breaks my heart. I have even witnessed events like this when I have worked with clients of other colleagues when they are on medical leaves, etc.. Luckily I don’t encounter this too often but to me, once is too often. I recall discussing abuse with one client and when I validated their experience and pain they said, “Wow, you really get it. So and so said that (insert name of abuser) was only doing their best! I don’t think they believed me.” Another client showed extreme reactions and learned behavior from abuse and was riddled with guilt. She said I was the first one to point this out. Discussing and explaining guilt in the aftermath of abuse and how it keeps us stuck from moving forward had a great impact on her. I was happy to give her a wonderful book on guilt and how to be released from feeling responsible for everything.
None of this is to say that I have some great qualities that other therapists don’t have. But it is to say that had I not gone through my own experience I wouldn’t be able to detect things so easily. Not only did I experience abuse in childhood but more recently abuse by a psychopath. The later beign quite different and teaching me about the trauma bonds you mentioned.
However, before my recent experience I never invalidated someone’s experience and even if I didn’t undertsand they were involved with a sociopath, I focused on what kept them stuck and worked with them on ways to heal. It is so disheartening to hear when other therapists don’t do this. Does one really think that once you see the problem that you can just walk away from it? I have always known that with abuse you get caught in the cycle and it’s not easy to get out of it because of the damage done to self-esteem, etc. And the phrase, “if what you say is true”, that was horrid! I’m so sorry she said that to you!
As you said, there are good therapists and bad therapists out there. Just like with those good physicians and bad physicians, etc., it’s a reality but a dangerous one. Jen2008, I am so glad that you recognized that your first therapist was doing more harm than good and moved on. I also want to note that this is the first time I’veheard of having to sign a contract to attend a certain number of sessions. I think that’s a bad sign. There’s something to be said about wanting your clients to commit to the process but signing a contract is not the way I would ever go about it. Nor do I think it’s ethical. Therapy is about client choice and attending a certain number of sessions sounds to me like it’s ensuring that the therapist gets paid a certain amount of money with each client versus ensuring that you commit to the process. Signing a contract doesn’t mean someone will work on anything. It sounds more beneficial to the therapist than the client. I suppose that for anyone that should be recognized as a red flag. Not that you should have known this at all Jen2008. Why would you? But hopefully if anyone reads this post they will now know.
I’m sorry about your experience but very glad to hear your second therapist was truly helpful. I look at therapy very much like teaching. It is extremely helpful to explain everything to clients including how the process works and why. Why I may ask them to do certain homework and why they are experiencing what they’re going through. I guess because I’ve always looked at it this way I have never expected instant change from anyone. The change process is hard and it’s uncomfortable. Therapy is not an easy process. As we know, we can label what we’ve been through but that doesn’t make it easy to leave. Like you said, in their presence you acted like a robot. I did too! I didn’t get it. It freaked me out! I stumbled upon trauma bonds and all myself. As with most of us, I figured out most of it on my own. I understood the cycle of abuse but I did not, at that time, understand why in the world I acted like a robot in his presence!
Luckily, as a therapist, I can use what I’ve learned for the benefit of others. But it’s sad that no one was able to see this to help me either. I suppose being a therapist, myself, helped me because I am never satisfied until I can fully understand the “why” behind things. But like most of have experienced with our friends and family unless someone’s been there themselves it’s hard for them to understand it. This needs to change! As we’re seemingly breeding more sociopaths and psychopaths with our culture now-a-days it need to change fast!
Thanks for your post Jen2008. I hope you’re doing well
)
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Taken for a ride says:
Reading this reminds me of when i tried to help her, he would ask her questions and she would not answer them, as time went on he told me that i was in for a very long road and this was never going to change, everyone else was stupid, she said he was no good for us that real stable people dont need counseling. Very disturbing.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
My ex went into counseling this spring and specifically asked for a counselor that was hard to fool. She gave him some good advice, but he only used it for a few weeks when he was in the mood to try to impress me with his sincerity. He also tried a two week hunger strike, and throwing out all his medication, which could be deadly for him since he has very little kidney function.
How was I strong enough to stand up against all that, but now am mourning and mooning over him again just like in the beginning? His friends say I “threw him away” but I never would… I just knew I could not trust him, such a bad feeling.
Takingmeback.. I am sorry but I don’t see WP as being a mean anti therapist person.. seems like he (she?) said exactly the same thing you have been saying and we all have been saying, that some therapists don’t see them for who they are until they’ve had to deal with one personally.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
Many times therapy makes them “worse” as they learn the “catch words” and “phrases” and use them to better manipulate their victims. My P-son is quite the “philosopher” and partly I think he is as good as he is is because after my divorce from his bio-father I took the boys to counseling for years and years, and we had a great therapist. I also took them to church on a regular basis so they also learned all the “Christian” philosophy of “forgiveness” etc etc. so he can manipulate with the best of them in many ways, at least he knows the “catch words” and “phrases” to use to manipulate me, and my mother, and his brothers–at least until his brothers and I went NC with him and wouldn’t believe a word he said, even if he said “the sun comes up in the morning and the moon comes up at night”—we would think it was a lie! LOL
They also use therapy to “show you they are trying”–BULL CRAP—it is just another manipulation.
Go around to the north corner of your house and TRY to pick it up. Try HARD, with all your strength. ARe you going to succeed? Of course not, and neither will they succeed by TRYING, because IT CAN’T BE DONE. They are NOT going to change, just find new tactics to convince you they are TRYING. “Trying” never accomplished anything. Doing something accomplishes things.
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missmelissakd says:
Very good blog by Dr. Steve, as it points out that couples counseling with S’s is about as useless as…(I apologize in advance for the crude remark) “tits on a boar hog,” as my dad used to say.
Interesting that he writes that couples counseling “provides little cover” for the S, because the S’s defect of a lack of empathy will become readily apparent. Hmmmm… this is true only as long as the S is successfully masking that lack of empathy. Some are adept at it. I was married to my S ex (whom I suspect had a bit of NPD thrown in his mix) for about 2 yrs until the emotional abuse became too much. With my self-esteem battered, I found the strength to leave. He pleaded with me, agreed to go to counseling, blah blah blah….we found ourselves in the office of a gentleman who allegedly had experience in counseling couples with emotional & physical abuse issues. He was about as passive a therapist as one could possibly get. When I described my S’s abusive behaviors and my responses to those behaviors, my hubby would offer up a “stress” or “depression” excuse and successfully divert the session’s focus from US (as a couple) to HIM. He’d point to his depression over erasing his heroic military background as a Navy SEAL- a background that neither the counselor nor I knew at the time was a fabricated identity. And he’d prattle on about what he wanted, needed, expected, etc. from me….our therapist’s reflective approach resulted in him turning his head to me a la a tennis referee and asking, “Melissa, I hear J saying that he needs x, y and z. Can you do this for him?” Oh man, I wanted to scream! I’d usually leave the sessions feeling frustrated, but not knowing how to articulate my observations to the man we entrusted with our marital health. On one level, it illustrates that nobody- not even mental health pros- are immune to being fooled by an S, because we’re all human. On another level, it illustrates how even without the S aspect, some (notice, I said “some”) counselors aren’t adept at addressing abusive behaviors EVEN WHEN they tout it as their specialty. That having been said, there’s obviously good & bad apples in every profession… some that aren’t good or bad, just a little sour.
When all was said and done, our couples counseling was doomed from the start. My ex wasn’t a normal person, and despite the fact most of his abusive behaviors were out in the open during our sessions (I never had the chance to broach sexual abuse), his S issues and fabricated identity were not. He wasn’t trying, and was feigning empathy as long as he felt it was necessary to secure my compliance. Without rigorous honesty required for effective therapy, the inevitable happened. He reverted to his old self, and I left for good. Divorce final last year.
Lucy/Takingmeback made a good point expectations placed on therapists being able to recognize S’s in their personal lives. Many of us, no matter what our profession, let our guard down in private life and open ourselves up in a way that we’d never do on the job.
My field is law, not mental health. Lord knows, we’ve got our share of power-hungry attorneys and judges, some of whom are S’s! :-O However, like therapists, the clients that seek my assistance are often vulnerable & sometimes they are victims of misbehavior. Some of the clients are probably S’s themselves. Because my profession has trained me to look for certain cues, it’s easier for me to draw boundaries in a professional environment. But like many, I’m human…and empathetic by nature… and when it comes to people that I love, I want to believe the best. That’s why my guard was lower in my private life, so I wasn’t “primed” to look for lies and cues that appear so easily to me in the hearing rooms. Oh, I eventually fielded questions like, “So how could an educated woman like you wind up…?” You know the drill. Part of the problem is that my ex’s behavior didn’t transgress the legal rules in which I was schooled. Granted, I can now see that some things met the legal def of what Ohio calls “sexual imposition” or marital rape (can’t legally rape one’s wife in Ohio as long as you’re living together). But he didn’t use his fists as weapons, thereby invoking the rules governing my field. So I was easy prey… I was, in effect, human. I guess that’s all I’m saying in my long-winded way. We’re all human, regardless of education or profession.
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jewellee says:
Dr. Steve:
I have only recently begun to heal from a six month marriage to a sociopath who has left my reputation, self-esteem and finances in ruins. Another thing to look for is the Sociopath who says he has individual therapy. He alleges he went to his own therapist so that he could grow…well, he was growing alright…growing insane. After he assaulted me the first time I demanded we attend therapy. He tried to tell the therapist I was a drug addict (apparently experimenting as a teenager makes me an addict 20 years later). The therapist shot him and his comments down immediately and we never went back. I threw him out two weeks later.
I am having a hard time getting assistance from law enforcement (he has a friend at the department where everything took place…no reports were ever filed). If anyone has any suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Jewellee,
Contratulations of getting the P out of your life! Congratulations on finding Love FRaud. This is a healing place for us! I am so glad that you saw the light before you had been with this monster for years!
Is he still a threat to you? If so, I suggest that you retain an attorney to get a restraining order. But remember it is only a piece of paper and bullets and swords go right though it if it is pasted on your back. Don’t trust him. Hang tough! Keep reading here, find out all you can about sociopaths/psychopaths and how they think and operate.
Good luck! and Welcome.
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moraira43 says:
Hi everyone,
I went into couples therapy with my husband 12 years ago, he had left the family home after been caught out having an affair and geting into financial difficulties, he was also very abusive to me physically and mentally, while away he had continued to visit me and the baby we had together as well as having a string of lovers, he thought this was ok because we were not ‘together’He finally decided after his friend asked him to leave the accomodation and after his car had been repossessed and after I had been offered a place to study law that leaving me was the biggest mistake he had ever made and I was his soulmate, I was lonely and worried about being a single parent so i agreed to give it another go (stupid) as long as he agreed to couple counselling, he said he would try anything and I believed him. When the time came he didnt turn up, I went alone for a few sessions, he finally attended with me and then the counsellor saw him alone. she asked to see me again alone and told me that she didnt normally say this but if I got involved with him again I would end up going mad! She didnt elaborate on this and in the end my husband convinced me everything was ok and that we didnt need the counselling. Oh how I wish I had listened to the counsellor I have had 12 years of hell and have only been able to put a name to it over the last couple of days after my 14 yr old daughter discovered his other life, casual sex dating sites. He has also taken money from my account making me in debt to the bank and increased our joint mortgage without telling me. I have also found out he has taken a life insurance policy on me when I was in hospital recently. He is in debt again and not paying the debt collection companies who he has agreements with, of course he doesnt accept any responsibility and doesnt feel he has done any wrong, he blames me for everything because of the way i treat him. I have now seen the light and realise that i cant fix this relationship. The moral of this tale is take the advise of a counsellor if she tells you to get rid!
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moraira43 says:
To Jewellee,
after 21 years with a sociopath one of the things I have learned is that they dont like to be exposed for what they are. Dont make them mad otherwise they wont leave it, they like to win in any situation, best that you try and walk away from it if you can and if your safe. At least you didnt waste your life with one
good luck and all the best to you in your future
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Wini says:
Good morning moraira43: Now that you comprehend what is going on, How are you and your daughter doing?
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moraira43 says:
Hi wini,
feel more empowered I have been able to talk to my family about it without feeling embarassed. I have covered up for him for years. Now I know its not my fault I can separate myself from his behaviour. He is acting as if nothing has happened today, no sign of any guilt for what was found out yesterday, he says subscribing to the casual dating sites was titillation and he looked but didnt touch. no thought that his daughter saw all the seedy pictures and no acknowledgement that there is a trust issue here after past experience with his infidelity.i have followed everyones advice and have not let him know that I have sussed him. I will need to sort out the financial issues now and most importantly protect my daughter. She has been feeling anxiety about the situation as her world is changed but she is very grounded and will receive lots of support. thanks for your help, I’m so glad I found this website
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OxDrover says:
Dear Moraira,
Congratulations, you are on your way to healing. You and your daughter both! I am so glad that she is old enough to understand what he is all about and is well grounded!
Just play your cards close to your chest until you are ready to lay them down openly. The less he suspects the better off you will be. Taking him by suprise is going to enrage him, but at the same time, it gives you the best chance of “winning” against him. I will keep you and your daughter in my prayers. I’m glad you are here at LF, this is a good place to heal!
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Stargazer says:
Moira,
There is a really good article here somewhere on “leaving the sociopath”–how to play it so they lose interest and leave. It’s really worth reading if you’re living with one and trying to get away. I commend you for having the strength to do this and for listening to your daughter.
My mother married an abusive sociopath when I was 7. When I was about your daughter’s age, I started begging her to leave him. I told her I would get a job to help support the family. She didn’t listen. She stayed with him till the day he died, and it really affected my relationship with her, which is pretty non-existent at this point. I think you are modeling strength to your daughter and showing her you love her and yourself. This will be invaluable to her as she goes through life.
Blessings to you both. I’m glad you found this site.
StarG
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moraira43 says:
thanks for your comments oxdrover and stargazer, it is really helpful to have people I relate to to open up to. stargazer your comment is really helpful as I know I am doing the right thing for my daughter now, i was always worried about splitting the family up as as a child I was from a broken home and very insecure because of it, another reason i have stayed is because I am so frightened of husbands behaviour if i go. He is extremely calculating and vindictive, but I am older and wiser and I think he knows this now, he doesnt physically abuse me anymore, so I know he had a choice in this and that makes me so angry.
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Indigoblue says:
* I hear you*
He will not change ! He will not do something else ! He will only do it to someone else ! This is His/Hers method of survival !
Ever play chess ? Don’t try this with It !
~
What piece is the most valuable ?
King ? For you and me this is true for without the king the game is over !
Take note: For the PSY/SOC It is the Queen ?
Why ?
It ( the Queen) has the furthest reach and the most destructive power ! It ( PSY/SOC ) would’nt percieve Winning the game with anything but the queen ! Follow ?
I feel for all of us !
To know thine enemy is to have Power over It !
Thank you and a group Huge Hug ! ******
Peace Jere
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Wini says:
Indigoblue: Yes, we were check mated before we even met them. Masters of the game of getting what they want in life, never mind bringing out the board and putting the pieces in alignment.
Peace.
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Taken for a ride says:
My ex sp or what ever she is has been a total fraud from day one, i tried to get her help and it did not work, i would move heaven and earth to help her but i have been told by my new counseler that she wont even deal with sp’s even with n c she still try’s shes on match .com with a false adress and a false age, just get away and try to heal, even by telling them that you did backround checks and all the evidence you may have on them they will lie, cheat over and over again. Very sad.
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pb says:
Mine refused to go to counseling with me because he said he needed to deal with his issues over his ex-wife first. I agreed as he was pretty darned angry over her taking half of HIS house after 22 years.
I’m now pretty sure he told my best friend that I WOULDN’T go with him…She kept saying I should be going with him. I tried to explain that he felt he needed to deal with some stuff on his own first, but looking back, I realize that he had already been planting the seeds of doubt in her head.
It’s just like when he was telling me to go spend the night at her place, he’s told everyone that he was actually telling me to move out all those months and I simply refused to go.
I never did go to her place. It was too embarrassing, and she actually had guests a few times. I couldn’t have gone there even if I’d wanted to.
One day he started arguing,”So, you think I’m the problem?”, “You don’t think you need help?” and, “You think you’re normal?”
I answered:
“No. I think you need to deal with some of your own issues though”
“I get along fine with myself and we’re breaking up. If I were in a committed relationship with someone and we were having problems, then yes, I’d go to counseling.”
“Yes, as a matter of fact I am normal – we all have baggage.”
I realize now that he didn’t want me to go to counseling with him because it would be pretty difficult to pull his crap with another person in the room.
I agree that counseling only gives them more skills to manipulate folks with. They don’t actually learn from it except how to be more convincing.
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pb says:
When I think of counseling with a complete wing-nut, I think of this Annie Lennox song:
DARK ROAD
It’s a dark road
and a dark way that leads to my house
and the word says
you’re never gonna find me there, oh no
I’ve got an open door
it didn’t get there by itself
it didn’t get there by itself
There’s a feeling
but you’re not feeling it at all
there’s a meaning
but you’re not listening anymore
I look at that open road
I’m gonna walk there by myself
And if you catch me
I might try to run away
you know I cant be here too long
and if you let me
I might try to make you stay
seems you never realize a good thing
til its gone
Maybe I’m still searching
but I don’t know what it means
all the fires of destruction are still
burning in my dreams
there’s no water that can wash away
this longing to come clean
Hey yea yea
I cant find the joy within my soul
its just sadness taking hold
I wanna come in from the cold
and make myself renewed again
it takes strength to live this way
the same old madness every day
I wanna kick these blues away
I want to learn to live again
It’s a dark road
and a dark way that leads to my house
and the word says
you’re never gonna find me there oh no
I’ve got an open door
it didn’t get there by itself
it didn’t get there by itself
Happy New Year to all – I’m looking forward to it now!
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PleasedSociopath says:
PB I really have to aggree with you here. I spent a large portion of my young life in therapy, seeing many different professionals. 5-15 years old. This left me with so any different skills and lessons to use later in life. Since then I have never had a problem walking through couples therapy, manipulating the situation to my liking. As I pretty much know what a professional is looking for, and what they want to hear. Thats the crazy part about all of this, the only option it to cut loose and free yourself. There is no changing them, and there is no recovery. We as humans have FAITH and HOPE that someone will change, and have the ability to forgive and forget. Those same things are what a sociopath relies on to survive. Very interesting read.
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Wini says:
PeasedSociopath: Since you’ve were in counseling from the ages of 5-15, who in your life insisted you go to a counselor? Can you elaborate on the concerns that you needed to speak with a therapist?
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PleasedSociopath says:
Wini, I was forced to deal with a bad divorce, and unstable mother early in my childhood. It was mostly other therapists suggestions that they have me evaluated, and at that point I was acting out, probably to get attention I diddnt feel I was getting. I dont remember much about it but they felt they had to keep me, for around 6 months, at which point I was made to believe something was wrong with me. Something probably was, but to get out of there I had to learn how to trick and decieve the counslors and therapists or whoever the multitudes of people I was forced to meet with. That is where I learned the most I would say. I was also suicidal, but never acted on anyof those feelings, also another trait of the sociopath.
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Wini says:
PleasedSociopath: So you turned off your emotions due to what your mother was doing to you? If you don’t mind me asking, what did your mother do to you that you found so repulsive or NOT normal.
What was your father like?
Why did your parents divorce?
Do you have siblings?
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Indigoblue says:
Dr Winibago
The Reality Check Here From a Scientific Stand point is that I don’t have any Beer or Cigarrettss and someone Has to go get them for Me
~LOVE JJ
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pb says:
Ah yes, couples therapy…
My N initially resisted the idea of counseling, saying he needed to get help for his drinking. Crafty! In admitting to one problem he diverted my attention from another by claiming them as one and the same, and managed to look as if he were sincerely revealing some sort of vulnerability at the same time.
He had attended counseling alone when his wife left and said that it was “really good” for him, but he said he needed to “clear his head” (sober up) before going back to counseling, “alone at first”, to deal with his anger over his wife. I, having no experience with S/P/N’s or boozers, foolishly bought into the alcoholic package, and he did need to deal with those issues.
Meanwhile, he had begun to spy on me, go home and read my journals while we were visiting the neighbor and come back to yell at me about guys I dated years before him while standing in the neighbors living room, calling me ten times a day or dropping in in the middle of the workday – supposedly because he loved me (if I said anything, I was accused of being ungrateful). He demanded that I show him photos in my camera from a family funeral in PA – as if I would have an affair while at a funeral and then keep pictures! He ran me out of the house a number of nights and I would sleep in my truck or the neighbors sauna (he doesn’t actually live at that house – it’s a spare).
Unknown to me N started telling people that I had screwed the neighbor in his hot tub, that he had been telling me to move (not just get out for the night) but that I wouldn’t leave, and that I wouldn’t attend counseling with him – he had to go alone. He established his position as victim for future use, with my best friend, our co-workers, and his family (we all work in the same business).
All of this happened over a six month period. By this time he had become unbearable to be around most nights. He pulled a couple of more scenes in front of the neighbor (they loved drinking together). Neighbor was probably the only person who saw N in action as he and my best friend were the only people who visited with us.
He came home one day, a few sessions into his counseling, and said that he realized he had me “trapped” and he didn’t want me to feel that way. “It’s about time I listened” (he knew things were getting tense and decided to throw me a bone). We agreed that I needed to return to work when his daughter wasn’t there and put some money away “The next time I’m a jerk, you’ll have some money if you have to leave” (like it’s easy to get bi-weekly work). And then he would tell me he wants me to stay and would beg for time to deal with things. It was crazy. Things would change weekly; sometimes daily.
I moved what little I had unpacked downstairs to give him some space while he started counseling, and he told my best friend I was “unpacking” (I didn’t realize he was telling people I refused to leave). “So”, she said as he handed me the phone. They had been talking for a bit. “He tells me you’re unpacking.”
“No” I said, “I’m just moving what is unpacked downstairs to give him some space while he figures out what he wants to do.” I didn’t catch the tone of her remark, but noticed the way he presented things to her.
There was no way he was ever going to attend counseling with me. He would never be able to pull it off with a third party in the room.
He’s now been in court ordered counseling since last April. I went to see his PO at one point last June. I didn’t yet realize he was an N, but I knew he was trying to pull a fast one and said as much.
When I told the PO that I had begun to smoke a lot of weed because I was so stressed out living with him and his drunken, controlling, abuse, the PO mentioned that N had told him I was a pothead who smoked massive amounts of weed. “Yes, I wasn’t smoking what he claims, but I did ask him to stop buying it and he refused saying he’d bought it for himself. He hardly smokes the stuff. He didn’t want me to stop smoking because he would have to face his alcoholism.” So, I know what his game was there. I’m glad I volunteered that info.
I never did get to unpack while I lived there.
In December N admitted he’s “been in enough counseling now to know [he is] an abusive piece of sh*t…a monster”, and I just “need to deal with it” – just like that. “Someone poked the bear and you just happened to come along at the wrong time.”
I still can’t figure out what the benefit was to him in admitting to me that he’s abusive – a monster even.
Was he just tired of hearing me wonder aloud as to how he could hurt me and not care, or how his actions and words didn’t add up? I had lost and found 20 pounds twice…
I don’t believe he cares beyond making himself feel good for appearing to care. He may have been feeling generous. Or perhaps he knew I couldn’t go any further without understanding; but that would mean he cared, wouldn’t it?
“Are you being sarcastic?” I asked. I was shocked and shaking.
“No” he looked at me as he smoked, “I’m being truthful…I’m an abusive piece of sh*t.”
“And you don’t aspire to anything different?”
“Nope, not at all. It’s what I am.”
“Wow”
I’m tending to think he was just tired of me trying to figure it out. I had asked him something; trying to make sense of his nonsense, his response was “Aren’t you in counseling? Haven’t they told you? Haven’t you figured it out yet?”
Unfortunately, I scratched my alcoholic and found a Narcissist underneath.
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nottakingitanymore says:
pb,
If your N is anything like mine, I would guess that he finally admitted it either as a last desperate move in the game to keep you, or else because he knew the game was over and wanted to gloat about how much he’d gotten away with.
I hope you turn your back and never give him another thought. He does not deserve any space in your head. Save the space for good thoughts and good people.
Best of luck to you!
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Matt says:
pb:
Personally, I’m astonished that your ex went into counselling. When I was deluded enough to think there was hope for S, I got him 6 different referrals to various therapists. I suggested couple’s counselling.
When he knew I was at wits’ end with him, THEN he’d make noises about “you’re right. I need to go into counselling.” Totally self-serving to keep my financial taps running.
The night I drove him off he let me know exactly what his view of therapy was — that one of his exes had insisted he go to one of the programs I had gotten him a referral to and he’d gotten nothing out of it. Also, that apparently my answer for everything could be summed up in a word “therapy.”
Personally, I think they are untreatable and have zero interest in changing.
Based on what you said, I don’t think he was tired of you trying to figure it out. Matter of fact, the more energy you put into it, the greater his jollies.
No, I think he took the tack he took with you to force YOU into making the decision to leave because there was nothing left in the relationship for him and he wanted to come out looking like you were the baddie in all this.
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pb says:
Matt:
First off, when he and I started dating his wife had supposedly been gone for months. I found out later that she had only been gone weeks. I’m pretty sure he went to counseling, maybe twice, just to vent his anger. He’s prone to snapping and he’s still mad as all get out at his ex-wife, even today. He claimed he had been depressed about the way she took advantage of him, but he more than likely went for a couple of rants to keep from losing it at work or somewhere equally inappropriate (he’s a bubbling angry cauldron at the best of times – even when smiling at you).
He didn’t go after we began dating.
The day he came home and said he had me “trapped” was actually the first day of counseling – I was wrong there. To my knowledge he only went for four or five visits and was pissed because after the first visit they wanted to talk about his ex-wife instead of me. I laughed at that. He said, “I don’t understand why they want to talk about her. I’m not having a problem with her.” A few weeks later he snapped.
And you’re probably right, he knew it was the only way. He had been investing a considerable amount of energy in sister #2 and I was becoming a problem or a headache. I ask too many questions and it wasn’t any fun anymore – HAHA.
I don’t know what his counseling sessions are like now, and his probation is up at the end of April. He seems to know what he is to some degree and doesn’t care. It could just be lip service.
I believe he is escalating. I left my phone #’s with sister #1 for future reference.
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pb says:
Oh! Matt,
How rude of me!
I hope it’s a nice single malt you’re sipping as you step into a new era.
Apologies and congratulations all at once.
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nic says:
My husband and I went to one session and that was it. After we left he said, “do you think I want to sit there and get beat up?” He does not think there is a problem with him so really it is no point to go to therapy.
Tonight he did call to get the baby and I asked if he was still not talking to me because of me emailing his friends about his cheating ways and he said he isn’t talking to me because I “am mean”!!!!!
That is so crazy. I am mean because I told his friends that he cheated and got a woman pregnant 2 months after we had our daughter. I don’t know how he lives with himself.
Matt I hope you are doing well.
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Matt says:
pb and nic:
Thanks for the support. I spent the day in what I call crisis management — getting a new cell phone, getting high speed internet (yes, I was the last living American with dial-up) and having to back to the execution pit (employer) to sign some papers.
I think all the stress I’ve been under and has suddenly been released has caught up with me. I felt like I was hit by a tidal wave of fatigue this afternoon. I think my next step this evening is to take a bubble bath and relax with a nice scotch on the rocks.
I keep adding to the “to-do” crisis list. I finally decided today that except for the absolutely critical things like appling for unemployment, the rest can be tackled at the rate of 1 or 2 a day.
I guess I’m babbling. Probably the fatigue. Know I’m going to sleep well tonight.
pb:
What is it with these guys? Mine also lied about how recent he had broken up with his ex. I specifically asked him when me met how long ago was his breakup since I had been down the path with somebody who couldn’t emotionally separate from his ex.
S told me “we’ve been broken up over a year.” The reality, I learned two months late was that technically they had been apart a year — because S had been incarcerated. S never could let go of the fact that his ex had said “he’d wait for S”.
I should have walked out when I learned that, but I was hooked. And for all intents and purposes I had a three-way with S’s ex the entire time S and I were together because they couldn’t disengage.
I sometimes wonder if they ended up back together. Then I think “who cares? The deserve each other. Because S sure didn’t deserve me.”
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pb says:
Yeah
Mine said he’d been broken up with his wife for “a year” and that she had moved “months ago” – just so I wouldn’t think it was too soon.
At the same time, he told everyone that the “psycho” had cheated on him with a herd of men. Well, if they were as he said separated but living on separate floors for the previous year, then how could he also claim she was cheating on him during the same time? Either they were together or they weren’t!
I never thought of that until now. He was having it both ways with his story.
Never mind that he actually did have a lover on the go – sister #1.
ICK!
Oh, and if you say “scotch” one more time – that’s it! I’m coming over!
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pb says:
Nic,
I am “evil and malicious” for counting his pecker pills, keeping records, photos, phone calls, messages, and a journal. I also called his daughters school and asked the principal to keep an eye on her because she’s a depressed/stressed out 10 yr old.
“I never know what you’re going to do” he said with some exasperation one night.
“Yup” I laughed, “You’re right you don’t; that’s why you shouldn’t lie to me.”
He was furious that I had called sister #1 (she actually apologized to me for getting involved – now that she’s seen who he is).
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jeanninelibutti says:
TrishNJ, I read your piece from August. I have been dealign w/NJ courts for over 12 years now. Nothing in NJ will ever change until the courts (the judges) see these diseased individuals for exactly who/what they are. We (you & I) can spend millions of $$$ (which we already have) on trying to keep our children safe from these unloving, manipulative, abusive people. However, the bottom line is, if we walk into a NJ courtroom where the Judge (the ultimate decision maker in this whole process) is either uneducated on the topic of Sociopathic/Psychopathic, is hateful towards women that day, or just a lazy bast#$%d who relies on his law clerk to do the work and never even bothered to read ANY of the goddam paperwork put in front of him (which CLEARLY points out this person’s blatant lies, sick priorities and diseased way of thinking), nothing will EVER get better for us or our children. We (you & me) will continue to be their victims until we die and the children will continue to be the pawns in their games until they are strong enough to practice “no contact”. No matter how hard we try, when these children finally reach adulthood, they are so screwed up in their heads that they cannot function normally without attending weekly therapy sessions for children of abusive parents. I sympatize w/your story. Been there, done that, still there. My youngest is 15 and (against a court order…which I’ll pay for eventually) practices “No Contact” with her father (who she is well aware is a sick abusive individual). When I say “against court order”…I have a court order from 9/2008 ordering me to take her for “reunification therapy” to reunify with her father whom she wants “No Contact” with. The family court judge interviewed her & my son but only ordered HER to go bcz she was 13 & he was almost 18 (old enuf to make his own decision). I was ordered to pay for it. This therapy will involve her & her father…but I have to foot the bill! Shortly after receiving that order, I lost my job and my health insurance. NJ Family Care does not offer to pay for this type of therapy so I decided to ignore it. At the same time, his child support was lowered from $238 per week to $42 per week. He sits home as always collecting any form of assistance he could possibly get from this lovely state (disability, unemployment, social security from his mother, etc..) while I struggle to put food on the table. The judge basically took over $849 out of my monthly income that I desperately need to support my children and gave it back to him to drink & party with. That’s NJ for you. Always allowing the thieves & criminals to come out on top & punishing those of us who do the right thing.
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