After the sociopath, hard-learned truths
Before I became entangled with the sociopath, I was an avid consumer of self-help books and programs. Although I was successful in my career, I could not get the relationship thing to work. This, of course, was the vulnerability exploited by the sociopath I married, but I get ahead of myself.
In my quest for answers—Why was I alone? Why couldn’t I find love?—I once participated in a weekend seminar called “Understanding Yourself and Others.” After some initial skepticism, I found the program to be helpful. One of the things I remember from the weekend is a pithy little motto:
“The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off.”
In reference to sociopaths, truer words were never spoken. When we finally learn the truth about these people, after months, years or decades of deception, we are hurt—but we are also enraged. Then, as we try to dig ourselves out of the hole, we learn more infuriating truths about the inability of other people in our lives, and of society’s institutions, to help us. Let’s take a look at what we learn.
Truths that make us angry
1. The sociopath never loved us. We were used. He or she wanted our money, or sex, or a place to live, or business connections, or a family to make him or her look normal, or whatever. All the promises of eternal love were bald-faced lies. We were supply, that’s all. They toyed with our hearts, and we are furious.
2. Other people just don’t understand. Those who have been lucky enough to avoid entanglements with sociopaths cannot fathom how we fell for it. They don’t comprehend the elaborate deception, the psychological manipulation and our inability to extract ourselves. We hear, “Just get over it already,” and are angry at the callousness of people who say they are concerned for us.
3. Credit card companies don’t care that we’ve been defrauded. The con artists talked us into paying their expenses or giving them money. Unless we can prove identity theft, the credit card companies don’t care how many lies he or she told. Even if a court finds the sociopath guilty of fraud, we’re stuck with the bills—which is patently unfair.
4. Legal authorities cannot cope with sub-criminal sociopaths. Unless the sociopath commits murder or robs a bank, chances are slim that law enforcement will take action. Fraud and domestic violence charges are difficult to prove, so they often don’t get investigated. But even if the police do take action, much of it is undone in the courts. Between manipulating the legal system and lying under oath, sociopaths rarely get the punishment they deserve. Sometimes they actually get away with murder, and we are fit to be tied.
5. Media images of sociopaths are wrong. On television and in the movies, sociopaths are equated with The Sopranos and psychopaths are portrayed as Hannibal Lecter. Some disordered people are, in fact, demented murderers and serial killers, but the vast majority of them are not. By promulgating myths and not reporting reality, the media do a tremendous disservice to everyone. As a trained journalist, this one really pisses me off.
Truths that set us free
6. Evil exists. Many of us got into our predicaments because we did not realize that human beings are capable of the evil that sociopaths perpetrate. Now we know, and knowledge is power. We know to be on the lookout for these predators, so that we do not fall into their traps again.
7. Our intuition knows better. Most of us felt something was wrong with the predator early in the game. We got the tickling in the brain, the twisting in the stomach, telling us to get out. But we let the sociopaths explain away our concerns. Now we know—when it comes to protecting ourselves from evil, our instincts are usually right.
8. We cannot save the sociopath. Sociopaths do not seek treatment. But suppose, due to a court order or fear of losing their gravy train, they do submit to medication or therapy. Suppose the treatment makes them 50 percent less abusive. That’s still 50 percent too much abuse for a healthy relationship. No matter how hard we try to save them, sociopaths are incapable of empathy or love. Adult sociopaths will not suddenly develop a conscience. So we can put down the burden of rescuing them, because it is not possible.
9. We must learn discrimination. An important meaning of the word “discriminate” is “to distinguish accurately.” Our mission in life is to learn when to say yes, and when to say no, so that our decisions support our wellbeing. We cannot abdicate this decision to others, even to people in authority. Some of them are sociopaths. Even if they aren’t, the people in charge do not always have our best interests at heart.
10. We are responsible for our own healing. We’ve been exploited, injured, used, and now we are struggling to overcome the pain. But where did the pain actually begin? There may have been some vulnerability or desire within us—something as normal as wanting to be loved. Somehow we felt we were lacking, and that gave the sociopath an opening. He or she ripped open our hearts, and whatever old wounds were hidden in them. Now we must look within, force ourselves to take stock of everything that’s there, and heal. Even when we have support, it is a lonely journey that we must undertake ourselves. But it is the journey that truly sets us free.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
kat_o_nine_tales says:
So true.. all so very true and so very sad.. but also empowering
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:28am
blondie says:
this is all so true.
i find myself still in the fog. still missing him, even though i know his is evil. im unsure how to emotional let go of him?
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:01am
OxDrover says:
Donna
I think this essay is the SINGLE BEST ESSAY ON THIS SITE. This sums it up so precisely and concisely that we all ought to print this out and hang it on our refrigerators.
GOOD GOING!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:23am
ally says:
Blondie – only time and understanding of both the mechanics of his illness and learning to accept that will help you control the emotions you have about him.
It is so very hard to understand but for all the pain you are feeling and all the time you take in trying to ‘figure it all out’ he is not giving you the same, he is happily going on his way, oblivious to what he does. You cant change who he is, what he has done or what he will carry on doing. He is an abusive male in every sense of the world and he will carry on doing what he is so good at….abusing.
Try to use this time to think about how to make yourself stronger and what help you need to get you through. Read as much information as you can on the subject, take the books in the car, to work, in the bath and underline bits that make the lightbulb gone on in your brain to say what he is and what he will always do. Read and re-read. Know you can’t change what has happened, even when you understand why he did the things he did. Just know you can change your future in anyway you choose with the right help through reading on this page, reading books and talking to friends who love and support you.
You are the lucky one, you are able to love in a real way and only deserve someone who can give this back to you. Your ex is not that man because as much as you miss him you only miss what you need, whcih is the need to be loved for by someone you can, someone who is caring, real, kind, honest, and someone who loves you so much he would be totally incapable and unable to hurt you. That man is not your ex.
Learn to love and cherish yourself and put all your energy in this.
It will get better, the sadness goes for a while, comes back a bit, goes again and the gaps between the shock and tears get longer until you are able to cope again and look in the mirror to finally see the person you use to be.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:28am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
This is true Oxy.
I hear ya Blondie. I personally can’t get away from one seeming truth.. of all the men I have ever been with or dated, this is the only one that made me feel like a real woman in the sack. His are the only arms I want, and that just doesn’t seem to change no matter how I feel about his personality and choices. I sometimes think I will never change my mind about that part of it, that maybe I will never be able to really love anyone else.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:35am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
lol gotta laugh at myself.. tears are in my eyes from writing that, and my heart as usual feels like a hollow shell filled with ashes. I look in the mirror and I have aged way too much in the last year. I barely resemble my own photo anymore. How can I be so brave sometimes and still be so full of pain and hopelessness?
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:37am
holywatersalt says:
Never loved us…a mantra of mine.
I recall this everytime I hear himinmy ear syaing: “I never liked you even a little bit.”
The venom was like a vapor, just cold.
And always his statement about “never ever even liking me” struck me because he “acted” so differently and of course,his words matched his lie. So for a long time I thought he was afraid, defensive…I think that’s a normal assumption when someone acts as if you are special to them, say sthe right things…but then does an abrupt about face…
that was a normal assumption before I knew about psychopaths…now I know the joy I saw when he was with me was “duping delight” and the high of pure narcissistic supply.
It was never me. That can/could hurt, BUT NOW I don’t pine for what never was. I didn’t lose something, the r/s never existed. The blow of being used is a wound, but I no longer feel some “unrequited love” crap…I can’t love, befriend what I never knew.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:50am
James says:
“The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off.”
1. The sociopath never loved us.
This is the one that really really hurts!!!
When I say this, it is more for our children then I. Don’t get me wrong I did love her and yes it hurt a lot whenever she did reject me, but she had been doing that for years. No the fact that a mother could walk away from her own children, leave the state and blindly move in with a married man in some God forsaken mobile home park and then think both of her children would understand and follow her blindly to “visit” as she stated??? Well, they didn’t understand (neither did I) and they “didn’t” go visit even to this day! So I have asked myself a thousand times… Did she love her own children???
2. Other people just don’t understand.
True and sadly most never will…
3. Credit card companies don’t care that we’ve been defrauded.
Thank God we never share any type of credit together, but she did try oh how she did TRY.
4. Legal authorities cannot cope with sub-criminal sociopaths
This is so true. At times I feel like I am standing on quicksand when it comes to our courts and legal system.
5. Media images of sociopaths are wrong.
How very true! Sometimes we are made to believe that a “sociopath” is mad (crazy) or someone we should pity. These people suffer from a personality flaw not a mental illness.
Truths that set us free
Numbers thru 6 to 10 are correct and right on target! Couldn’t agree more!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:41am
rperk6069 says:
I agree with Ox, this is the best essay and every word is written is something I have thought about alot.
#4 reached out to me because it is something that happened to me but I could not put into words and reading it made me feel so relieved because it happens and it is frustrating.
There are 2 cops in the town I live in who know my ex for who and what he is. They have watched him and arrested him on several occasions, but when it came to court….nothing happened. In one case, the officers tried to arrest him, (he ran), they got ahold of his car, found a gun under the seat (he is a felon), I wrote to the courts many letters about what information I knew about how he obtained the gun and that he was a felon, just look at his past record, ect. and again,
nothing. When he went to court, he used his pregnant girlfriend to stay out of jail and it worked. Now, he is a felon with a gun, evading police, and more. Gun/felon alone is supposed to be punishable by up to 10 years in jail… How did he get away with that? Why do the judges do that? They are helping to create even bigger monsters cuz the P’s get away with it. Over and over.
I can imaging the frustration the officers feel. They do their job and it gets them nowhere. I am not a fan of the police in my town, the newspapers have been full of stories of what crappy little things some of the officers are pulling here, but there are good officers just trying to do their jobs, put away the bad guys and look at the thanks they get from the courts.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:49am
JaneSmith says:
Whoa, Donna, that is a brilliant, powerful essay.
It speaks volumes to me as I am no longer under any man’s thumb, any man’s illusion of kindness, goodness, any man’s own private dictatorship.
I see the light that you have so eloquently, candidly written. Points of interest for me are: Predators do not deserve our compassion, our concern, our love. Not only do they not deserve us, but they can’t even comprehend the fact that they do not deserve us.
I have discovered that I am my own woman, that I do not need affirmation from a man. I can do what I please, when I wish to do it and noone has the authority to tell me what I can and cannot do!
I am empowered, totally. I exude confidence and self possession, without being aggressive or arrogant. The place I am in right now is the wonderful place that I have always wanted to be in. The place that I wish for all the lovely LF members to eventually reach.
It’s mahvelous ya’ll, to be able to hold my head up high, my shoulders back, my eyes clear and bright, my integrity intact.
The most positive aspect is that I haven’t become bitter from all the past crap. I have maintained my sincerest compassionate, loving, caring, gentle nature and truly thank this fantastic website for helping me become who I am. Today.
Also want to thank the PDIs who have ventured into my life. Thank you, psychos, for giving me immensely painful lessons in what it means to be a good person. Without your evil, selfish ways I might not have become a super gal, ever growing in my spirituality, ever growing in my universal love for wonderful folks, ever growing in my belief and love of myself, ever growing to be thankful that I am not only alive, but I am happy, serene, at peace with me and the world.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 11:49am
Beverly says:
Hiya JaneS. Have you checked your inbox? There should be a message and some pics in it for you. If not, let me know. Love and Hugs Bev.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 11:54am
OxDrover says:
I read something on another site just now that I think is so good. I know I have felt so AFRAID through all of this and I imagine others have too.
“When I care to be powerful–to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.” Audre Lorde
There are so many GOOD lessons we can take away from this horrible and painful and fear inducing experiences. This essay expressed them so well.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:09pm
Beverly says:
A good article Donna. There were a couple of points that really hit home for me. Firstly, we learn through the most difficult scenarios to make better choices in life and lets face it getting involved with the sinister and manipulative forces of those with PDs is a HUGE learning curve. Many of us will be ‘dipping our toes in the dating water’ with alot of caution next time – and that is good. When I got involved with a Narcissist man, I had no idea where this was going to take me in one short year and I am still learning off the back of not only what happened to me, but from the kindness and wisdom put forward here by contributors. Bless you all.
Secondly, I am definately one of those people who has alot of books also and I STILL cant get the relationship thing to work, even when I am in a relationship – because it doesnt matter what formula you use, the other person will always be a ‘wild card’ – perhaps the choices we made to the universe signify how we uphold ourselves. But we were duped and that is different.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:10pm
JaneSmith says:
Yes! I did, Bev!
Just sent you a little email with some pics. Forgot to mention my kitties names. Bazil is the chubby one with big green eyes, Molly is the lanky heathenous brat with the tawny eyes.
They are my baby brats and I love them truly, deeply, madly!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:33pm
Beverly says:
Thanx JS, I will look at it now. I love cats too, but they make me sneeze aaaaatishoooo! I forgot to mention my brother’s new baby Gabriella, that was the purpose of the photo.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:36pm
Beverly says:
Thanx JaneS. I opened my mail and all I can say is WOW!!!!!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:54pm
JaneSmith says:
Oxy, if you met me 5 years ago and compared that woman to me today, you would be shocked.
I was a certified neurotic, Agoraphobic, Hypochondriac, you name the phobia and I had it! They were caused from my life long battle with generalize anxiety. I was mess. The doctor’s wanted me to take tranquilizers and I was adament against temporary solutions. I wanted to get to the root of my anxiety because I was so sick and tired of being afraid of everything, even my own shadow.
Well, I frantically started searching on the internet for the causes, the symptoms, the solutions for generalized anxiety and panic attacks. I found the most wonderful, beneficial downloadable e book, written by an Irish fella who offered a history of his own struggle with anxiety/panic attacks and the physiological/phychological manifestations and causation for anxiety.
He described to me that what I was feeling was simply the flight or fight response. That those frightening, bizarre tingling sensations in my extremities, the hyper sensitivity, those scary, obsessive thoughts were simply my mind and my body readying itself for fighting or fleeing.
What a relief! I’m not crazy! He also said the best way to rid yourself of panic attacks was to confront them head on. That logic made total sense to me as I am a fighter. If you tell your mind repeatedly to..”bring it on, panic attack!” it simply won’t happen. Can’t happen, not if you’re in charge.
Little by little I was able to defeat my 20+ year battle with anxiety. Little by little I was able to confront all my fears without flinching. This was the time where I surrendered all my cares, worries to Our Holy Father because I knew I had 0 control over anything.
It took discipline and courage to do what I had to do to get well.
And now, I am!…haha. No more anxiety, no more panic attacks, and I’m no longer fearful of adrenaline rushes. I actually dig them now, but I won’t become addicted…haha.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:54pm
JaneSmith says:
Bev,
awww…you’re allergic to kitties? boo…
I would go mad without those furry little bundles of joy in my life. Yes, they drive me up the wall with their running hither and thither in the middle of the night, but then they steal my heart over and over again when the curl up next to me, purring and loving on me. My kids..haha.
Oh, yeah, the baby is GORGEOUS! My bio clock has been teasing me like crazy telling me I gots to hurry up and make a baby…haha.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:58pm
Beverly says:
JS, Yes, I am, more in the summer, when their fur is flying around. But cats love me. I have a soft spot for most animals, including creepy crawlies and I love dragonflies. I will chat more on email and send you more pics. (((hugs)))
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 1:01pm
alohatraveler says:
Thanks for this Donna. An excellent summary of the frustratons and lessons we learn from a Sociopath of disordered/exploitive partner.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 1:13pm
alohatraveler says:
kat_o_nine_tales,
I can relate to your post about “feeling like a woman.” I know what you mean. It’s kind of weird but Bad Man did try to create a spiritual connection in the B-room. The thing is, all the things he did he read in a book. Even that wasn’t real. It was not coming from his heart.
There is something about this pretend “deep” lovemaking that digs deep in the hearts of women.
Oh well. It’s best I don’t go down that road in my mind. It goes nowhere and it doesn’t help me to trudge forward.
Have a good day everyone.
)
Aloha…….. E
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 1:20pm
OxDrover says:
Jane, there are so many people who have anxiety attacks and will NOT admit no matter what the evidence that they are not “dying”—I have been very frustrated working with them both in general family medicine and in psychiatriy. I am so glad to know that there is ONE PERSON AT LEAST that has learned to cope with these things.
I have had ONE panic attack and it was truly awful I can vouch for that! I knew what it was and I coped with it but it was truly terrible.
I am hyper-responsive to adreneline anyway, and even the adreneline in the numbing shot that the dentist gives would make my heart plapate and all that. I figured out what it was and so now I ask them not to give me the shots with the adreneline in it if possible. Sometimes it is necessary but I know what is going on and the palpations etc don’t scare me.
Medication for anxiety attacks is sometimes necessary for some people, because with the chemical natures of our brains it is sometmes overwhelming like depression and it is just a matter of you absolutely can’t over come it without medicine, but even WITH medication it is also a “self help” thing for that panic attack thing. I DO understand however from that one experience how frightening it could be to anyone.
I am happy for you that you managed to get a handle on them. Again, it only proves to me what a powerful person you are, WE ALL ARE, if we will just put our own powers to work for us. Overcome our fears (most of which are not realistic, just like “worrying” is usually totally “futile” but we all do it to some extent or another!)
All of my worries are always rooted in a fear of some kind, and my fears are NOT GENERALLY ever realized, and so working on the “fear of tomorrow” is a big thing with me from time to time. “How will I do X, if Y happens?” Well, now I try to wait until Y happens befsore I start concerning myself with how I will cope with it.
It’s all a slow process, and different facets from day to day, but baby steps I keep telling myself, do amount up to miles.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 1:23pm
Ginger says:
This is my first time posting and I am very glad I found a place where my story doesn’t sound like I am the crazy one. When I tell about my situation I feel like it should be a Lifetime story.
Just last week I have realized that my ex S is a felon. I have known that he was a sociopath since I started seeing my counselor in June, in addition to a liar and a cheat. He embezzled a lot of money while colluding with someone else. Restitution needs to be made or charges will be filed and they will be going to jail. He told me the half truth—someone did something wrong, he knew about and didn’t tell anyone. The other half is that he did the same thing too. I haven’t asked for his version of the story, since it won’t be the truth (it never is), but have gotten the truth through reliable sources. I feel like I need to keep ahead of the 8 ball and be proactive in devising a plan for myself and my kids. I feel like I am taking control of my life and not waiting to be blindsided. I need to protect my kids. According to him, everything is behind him and is settled. Truthfully, not by a long shot.
He has conned so many people out of money for so many years and is engaged to be married to someone who doesn’t have a clue that she is being conned—she is ignoring all of the red flags. He will probably have her come up with the funds for restitution. I hope he doesn’t, so he goes to jail, where he belongs. He seems to weasel out of everything and is never held accountable for his actions.
He makes everything on the surface appear great—nonchaotic. However, his personal finances are just a mess (bounced checks, credit cards maxed), in addition to his potential criminal record. He is renovating his house, but owes back child support and restitution. I just want to scream and yell from the rooftops that he is such a con artist, thief, cheat and liar!
Since June I have been trying to uncover the truths of the past and now of the present. I am trying to face the truth rather than burying my head in the sand like I did when I was married. Being in control and facing the truth is emotionally exhausting…Still, it is difficult for me to see the monster in him.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 1:54pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Ginger,
Welcome to LF–I’m sorry that you have had to find this place through trying to heal from an experience with a sociopath. I know “it is difficult to see the monster in” them sometimes, when they have the “mask of sanity” covering their faces.
Some of them are very good at that disguise. I hear your frustration and your pain. Most of us, I think, feel like our lives should be on some “sci fi” channel or something because it can’t be “real.” I have found that many people can’t even believe it IS REAL, so you are among good company here, WE BELIEVE YOU!
The best advice I can give anyone coming here is to read every essay written here and as many of the blogs as you can, there is such a WEALTH of knowledge here. I think without a doubt this is THE BEST SITE on psychopaths and their tricks than any other site. The owners and other regular posters are super super people and know their stuff. There are lots of professionals here in medical and mental therapy and they have also been conned as well as the rest of us, so don’t feel like you “should have known” and beat yourself up over it, these con men/women have fooled smarter people than you can even imagine. It isn’t about them being smart and us being dumb, it is all aobut they LIE LIE LIE and have no consciences.
You will find a wealth of knowledge and to me Knowledge=power to protect yourself. Again, welcome.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 3:24pm
blondie says:
ally~ your right, all i want is someone to love me, to hang out with me, to care about me, to go on trips with. im missing the relationship part. i have to remind myself that as much he was doing those things with me it wasnt real. he was lying to someone else about what he was doing. he was saying i love you to someone else. he was doing things with her while i was at home or at work. he tells me he made a mistake. as much as i just want to say ok i forgive you. I CANT DO IT. i did that before and look when im at again.
kat_o_nine_tales ~ i agree with you. i feel like im never going to love anyone again. im going to be stuck on my feelings for him forever.
rebuilding my life has been so hard.
it makes me so mad that my ex thinks im not being an adult b/c im not talkin to him, or not givin him a chance. all he says is he wishes we could be adults and talk about us. AHHHHH its all this madness
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 4:37pm
Odette says:
I agree with Oxy…this is the single best article in a site filled with brilliant articles.
It’s still a kick in the guts when I remind myself that he never loved me and that our entire relationship was a scam to get what needed from me – a play to live, money and whatever else he could get. My intuition was niggling away at me all the time but I made a conscious decision to ignore those faint whispers. I made a commitment to him and I was determined to trust him and support him no matter what.
I had lunch with my brother’s ex-wife today – she is as dear to me as if she was my blood sister – and I told her I’d realised something. I’d realised I wasn’t wrong to love and trust as I did. What I should do differently from now on though is to grant that love and trust to people who earn it, who prove themselves through their actions, not just by saying what I most want to hear.
Financially my ex-P didn’t do too much damage because my brother had already just about ruined me financially already. Last week I hired an attorney to get back the money my brother owes me so that I can start getting my finances back on track again. That was a huge step for me. So far only his ex-wife knows. When I told her today she high-fived me and told me she was really proud of me.
I know my decision to take legal steps against my brother is going to create waves in my family and I have no doubt that some of them will drag my name through the mud. But enough is enough. I allowed my brother to use me and that stops right now. He hasn’t given a thought to the stress and hardship he’s caused me and now he has to face the consequences of his actions.
My ex-P is in jail where he belongs. If he tries to contact me when he gets out I will take legal steps to force him to keep his distance from me.
I recently came off my anti-depressants and have endured a miserable two weeks coping with the withdrawal. It’s been sheer hell in fact. I’m much better now, though I still get headaches and bouts of nausea. The meds helped me when I needed it but now I no longer want to be numbed. I need to feel what I feel.
These are all steps in my recovery process. I’m slowly getting there.
I’d like to say to Ginger and Blondie especially…you’ve already proven how strong you are because you got away from your monsters and you’re still standing. I know there are times when you feel like a strong breeze will blow you away. It’s ok to feel like that. It’s ok to be angry and frustrated and question everything, including yourselves. Give yourselves the space to feel what you feel. Just never give those men the opportunity to get back into your lives. They do not deserve to breathe the same air you breathe.
You will get through this in time. There is no timetable for healing. It will take the time it takes. Pamper yourselves occasionally…go out for a good meal, go to the hairdresser or simply sit in the sun and enjoy doing nothing for a while. You’ve been battered and you need some TLC. And always remember that you are good people who did not deserve what happened to you. You are kind compassionate loving people…so much more than these psychopaths could ever dream of being.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 4:58pm
Beverly says:
Well said Odette. We cant change what happened and we cant take back the love we gave, we acted in good faith. But we have learned through this unfortunate experience to be more cautious about giving away our valuable love energy, so that it is not exploited against us again. Many of us have learned a tough lesson that we shall never forget and we have learned to heed our intuition and look for the backup actions to words and not be taken in by their seductive charms.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 5:32pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
What kills me the most is, I know my cheater bf fell in love with me. Everyone that knew him said the same thing, that they had NEVER seen him act like that before, that he was making changes they would have never believed. Our lovemaking was sheer heaven but not because he did anything special .. it was the connection.
But that wasn’t enough to hold him. He said the feelings of love made him feel vulnerable, scared and weak. He equates love with abuse, from way way back, and has kicked both me and love out of his life permanently. Pretty sad, so sad, but I wish I had never met him, because now everyone I date is just “not him”.. I feel so stupid.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 6:17pm
newworld view says:
i understand what you mean kat about the way they made us feel in the bedroom……i think that was a talent..jut like some are good at football, some at basketball, this was a talent he honed…the other sports, you hope for a big payoff and so they do in this “SPORT” as well….he frequently referred to sex as sport anyway…..i think thats how he justified all his messing around………and yes those memories make it hard to find another man to compare….but that is of course unless we find another dramatic actor………..i think he would get his ideas from the porn he was addicted to and then try them all out …..who knows how many others he had feeling that they were the sexiest woman alive………sooooo sad for us
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 7:54pm
swallow says:
Kat,
I can understand exactly how you feel and it isn’t stupid at all. I think for most women, sex is a much more emotional experience than for men ( sorry guys) and in many cases it the thing that ‘hooks’ us up to someone who is sadly lacking in other areas. The deep emotional feelings that good sex evokes literally blinds us to reality.
Most P’s seem to have a kind of raw, animal -like magnetism and most I would say have perfected the art of sex because (a) they are promiscuous and (b) because they realise it a is a way to control someone. I can remember witnessing my P hit on someone ( while he was with me) and he literally oozed sex. It was almost magical the way he gave off those feramones. At the time, I felt humiliated , hurt and angry but I realise now that his behaviour had nothing personally to do with me or the other woman, it could have been anyone just because they were there and he wanted some fun.
I feel terribly guilty about enjoying the sex with my P as I am a married woman but like you it still feels as if it was the best I ever had. The way I deal with that is to remind myself that I was playing out my own fantasies and he just tapped into them and used them against me for his own gain. No matter how ‘good’ it was, there is so much more to life and relationships than that and those feelings are mine and mine alone to deal with. The relationship I now have with my husband is so so much better than with a P. It is REAL.
Try to put your own feelngs of him in a little box and label it ‘fantasy’. There is no shame in having those thoughts but you need to recognise them for what they are and then turn your attention to finding relationships that are genuine and good for you. It is possible and you will find happiness once you stop comparing ‘normal’ people to a predator.
Swallow
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:02pm
blondie says:
i realize that everytime ive had contact with my ex. he acts like he is the victim. all i hear is how he made a mistake. im not being a adult about this sitution. i left him. he loves me. how mean iam to him. how different iam to him. its the first sign that nothing changed with him, not that i really expect anything. it just renforces my decsion to get away.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:19pm
OxDrover says:
Well said, Odette!
I also hope that you get your money from your brother. I agree that it may divide your family, but at the same time if it does, it does. I’ve been there and just because someone is blood to you does not mean that they should be allowed to abuse you with impunity. You go girl!
I’m glad that you are doing well and making good progress.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:11pm
takingmeback says:
This is exactly what I needed to read today. I have been triggered in a HUGE way. I went to see my cousin yesterday as her b/f broke up with her. It was sudden and abusive. He left her questioning what SHE did to make him behave that way. He used the “silent treatment” and “control” taking his house key from her with no explanation. He left her standing outside crying and confused, refusing to talk to her.
She shared with me other things he has done and I cringed. I told her that he was my ex S through and through. I asked how long they’ve been together…4 months. Bingo. Typically after 3 months people start to reveal their true selves. If the S/N/Ps are under any stress the mask usually cracks and you get a glimpse of who they truly are.
Then he called. I saw her conviction for “no more” drop after she met with him to talk. I saw my former self in her and every cell in my body wanted to scream. I warned her that face-to-face he can manipulate her easier. She said she was strong and would hold to her convictions. I wonder how quickly she succumbed to his lies.
My first question after they met was, “Did he tell you that he did what he did because of what someone else has done to him in the past?” The classic blame game. “Yes”, she said. “How did you know?” I had spent the WHOLE day telling her that what he has done throughout the relationship is controlling and abusive. His tactics were to confuse her and to lower her self-esteem. I don’t even need to describe them. We’ve all been there. They ALL hit home. Even the “deadpan” joking where she couldn’t tell if he was serious or not. That used to infuriate me as I felt my ex S was purposefully trying to make me look stupid. and inferior. He was! Just like talking over my head because goodness knows he’s an “expert” in everything. Funny how the only big words he ever used with me that stuck in my mind were “mellifluous” and “vitriolic”. Truly the two sides of his personality. OK, I know I’m raging here. I just need to let it out before I implode!!!
Oh, funny thought…the S/N/Ps would explode. I think us victims tend to implode. That’s the difference folks between ego-syntonic and ego-dystonic. Thank God for a moment of humor. Now if I could only laugh. I hate feeling this way.
I have met my cousin’s b/f only once and I had a horrible feeling inside about him. I told her I was worried that I was projecting my “stuff” onto him. I have recently been listening to that intuition and paying attention and it’s paid off in big ways. I am working on not doubting myself anymore. I feel as though I can sense S/N/Ps a mile away. My intuition is on hyperalert!
I know I need to let my cousin go and I have said all I can and given her as much food for thought to consider why she has chosen to give him another chance. All I can do is be here for her. But I feel as if I just relived my WHOLE experience again. I am frustrated. I was doing so well. I know this is just a glitch in my recovery. But today I am a mess. I want this pain to be over!
I want so badly to go on the websites where my ex S blogs and reveal him. That is what he fears the most. He immediately “took a break ” from one website that he knows I know of. It’s were I caught him lying and started to figure him out. He doesn’t know I am aware of the others. I can’t do a thing. I will only look like a crazed stalker. I know that’s what he wants. I just want to stop this craving at times to lash out. I am sick that he portrays being this know-it-all, humble and supportive athlete. He is a monster! I don’t like these feelings and I’m tired of them. Where is my peace of mind today?
I don’t like feeling this way. I don’t like being reminded of him. UUUUGGGGHHHH!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:22pm
takingmeback says:
“The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off.”
This is so true.
I started saying last year that, “The truth will set you free- it may shock and abhor you- but it will set you free”.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:24pm
OxDrover says:
Dear takingmeback,
I am so glad that your cousin has you and your new knowledge about psychopaths. She will be back and you will be there for her. Think how wonderful that will be for her! We can all pass on this “GIFT of knowledge” to others who are suffering. Viktor FRankl found meaning in his suffering, I want there to be some meaning in mine. Something good it will bring not only to me, but to others.
Your peace of mind will return, this is just a pot hole on the road to healing, I fall in them frequently, but NOT as frequently as I did before…I think I crawled the first 100 miles up hill on my hands and knees! But how you get there is not the point it is the point that you are on the road to healing!
((((BIG HUGS)))) for a STRONG woman! YOU!!!!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:04pm
takingmeback says:
Thanks Oxy. Your support means more than I can put into words. I almost posted on here crying out for you. You bring me such calm. I find your words so soothing. I feel I should be paying you for therapy. I wish I could meet you and get that big hug sometimes. I just hate that other people don’t understand and I feel I can’t talk to others in my life because I’m the damn therapist
Now I feel I’m labelled as the therapist who sees sociopathy everywhere. My colleagues don’t get it as I’ve tried to educate them about socipathy and what it really looks like. It’s not projection from my personal experience it’s from the uber amount of research I have done on the suject as a result of my experience.
Yet I hear, “Oh I don’t think he has Cluster B traits, I think he just has Bipolar d/o.” Yes which is often comorbid with cluster B traits and no not with everyone! “Oh, well yes she’s has daily SI/HI and threatens to take others down with her when she’s finally pushed over the edge, but I think you’re missing the focus on her Axis I diagnosis of Depresion.” No the depression is part of her anger and rage against society because she’s not like everyone else. It stems from her Axis II d/o which is primary. Or the, “I just think you need to focus on the symptoms and ignore the diagnosis”. OK, but don’t you think it’s important to determine if we’re dealing with ego-syntonic or ego-dystonic traits? Do you call that resistance and ,if so, for how long? Isn’t there a reason we have different treatment modalities for different disorders? I can’t even tell you how many clients I get assigned who come with NO Axis II diagnoses and are clearly PDIs. Folks are not asking the right questions to determine these things. It’s so frustrating and I look like the obsessive one as if I’m seeking to find a sociopath at every turn. I’m so not. But when it’s there, damn it, it’s there!
Tonight I just want to scream that I am not as strong as people think I am. It hurts to feel that my colleagues are rolling their eyes behind my back because of what happened to me. Sometimes I think I fool myself into believing I am strong. But I can’t stop telling myself I’m strong. I have clients who depend on me and I owe it to myself to keep living and start living more fully again. I will not let this defeat me but I get so tired. I think all the tears I’ve cried over the past year+ could fill up an ocean by now. OK, at least a Great Lake. I am trying to find humor and hold to me.
I feel like the doctor who makes the worst patient. I’m the therapist who chooses at the last minute, just before I slide completely into the deep, dark abyss, to use my coping skills. I have to tell myself to breathe, to do thought-stopping, to try a relaxation technique…oh and to take my prn meds when needed. I make a horrible client some days!
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 11:03pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Takingme back,
My dear I do KNOW EXACTLY what you mean about not feeling strong. I have wished so many times to just curl up in someone else’s arms and have someone take care of ME for a change. “Being on the WRONG side of the clip board” as a therapy PATIENT instead of being the therapist was a big BIG step for me, and it never felt right. Doctors ARE bad patients and so are therapists as therapy patients and so are nurses, etc. We think of ourselves as the care GIVERS not the care RECEIVERS. We can easily see the diagnosis on someone else but have a DIFFICULT TIME seeing our own becaue we know what we are feeling, and putting our therapy skills into practice for ourselves is THE most difficult thing.
I think that is why this site is so good for me, is that there are so many professionals here that are in the same boat as I have been—totally conned. It isn’t because I am stupid or uneducated, it is I am HUMAN, just like THEY” ARE HUMAN. I have always been a perfectionist with ME, not with others, but with myself. I am now having to learn to fail. Learn to forgive myself for not being perfect.
Yea, your peers DON’T GET IT, and yea they roll their eyes, but they have had your experience. REMEMBER: “THERE IS NO FANATIC LIKE A CONVERT” You have SEEN the light, you have been CONVERTED and you want to run out and tell the world your new found knowledge and NO ONE BELIEVES YOU. That is so typical I think with all of us as victims. We want to convince others of the TRUTH of our discovery, but they ahve no forum in which to comprehend the truth of our “preaching.” Besides, they don’t want to believe it is even possible, because it is a SCARY concept that there REALLY are EVIL people out there, it would make their world seem unsafe to believe it.
I’m glad that you can relate to the things I say about my own situation. It has been a long hard road for me—a life time leading toward all this, from FOO dysfunction to a genetic history of Ps on both sides of my ancestry. I’m actually pretty impressed that I have done as well as I have and not become a flaming “nut case.” I credit a great deal of my success in all aspects of my life to my great step father who was a wonderful Christian man and a great mentor, encourager and cheer leader. I know that he was the basis of my Christian faith and what sense of self esteem I have. His confidence in me was unwavoring and his love for me as well. Every child or person in this world should have at least ONE person like him who loves them unconditionally. His unconditional love and unconditional trust of me made me know that I just couldn’t let him down by doing something I knew was bad or nasty. His faith iin God was so strong and so comforting.
I have been always perceived as “strong” by others because I don’t give up easily, but inside I have never “felt” strong, well let me rephrase that, I have not ALWAYS felt strong, sometimes I have. But you know, I realize too that bravery is not being unafraid, it is BEING AFRAID and doing what you know needs to be done anyway. So is strength. It is not feeling strong, but just keeping on going, even when you are tired, discouraged and distraught. So I AM STRONG, I just get tired sometimes, and I am learning to REST as well. To take care of ME. No matter how strong you are, you need REST, anyone does. Taking that rest when we need it is part of being STRONG. Listening to ourselves and taking the things WE NEED, such as rest. I used to feel guilty if I rested, but now I know it is essential to strength.
I can tell you takeingmeback, that you ARE STRONG, but you may need some rest. Give yourself that break, take care of YOU. I can THROW that “stone” because I have been just the same way so very many times! (((Hugs)))) I would love to be able to put my real arms around your shoulders as well. But I am so grateful that we have this avenue to communicate, Isn’t the internet wonderful! To bring people together for healing. Thank you Donna for LF.
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Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 11:26pm
takingmeback says:
Oxy,
You are hands-down correct about REST. I need it and I don’t get enough. I am afraid of it. I spent so many months waking up not knowing where I was and who I was that I still have that fear. Yes, even though it happens less and less now. I hated mornings when reality would set it after a few minutes of confusion and panic. The days when I could find no meaning to my life. I still have to remind myself at times of my meaning. I don’t want to forget who I am ever again.
Twice I’ve had PTSD and it’s so awful a feeling. But this is the worst I have ever had it. The other being a sudden tragic event. This is more personal and more intrusive than, as we know, most people can imagine.
I am also thankful for LF. I am thankful for your understanding, Oxy, of what it’s like being a caregiver in need of our own care. How hard that is. Thanks for all the virtual hugs as well
.
I’m glad you had your step-father. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. You were truly blessed to have him. Yes, everyone needs that ONE person in life who loves them and trusts them. I am glad you had that in yours. You’ve struggled hard but what a beautiful woman you are as a result. Ever becoming moreso with each day.
In my family of Ns I have a wonderful mother who’s kept us together and who’s kept me sane with her unconditional love as well. I don’t know how she’s done it. She thinks so little of herself (my father’s an N) and yet she’s my hero. So often my father put her between him and my sister and I. I still hear him say, “you’re choosing the children over me”. Yeah, that was a common statement when my father would get physically abusive and she’d take us to a hotel overnight in fear that he’s wake up in the middle of the night and kill us. Ah, such memories. Interesting how the only two men I’ve ever said, “I love you” to were both homicial towards me at one point. What lovely memories. Ick!
But I’ve seen my mother get stronger through the years as my father has a debilitating medical condition. He can no longer be physcially abusive towards us as he used to be. I have set firm boundaries with him and I have seen my mother do the same in some ways. Luckily my father needs her due to his condition and limited mobility and constant pain. He can’t be as cruel as he used to. Not that he doesn’t get close with his tongue at times. But he’s trapped and can’t take it too far. The risk is too great for him of losing all of us. He needs us and especially my mother. I’m just sad that she’s spent the majority of her life for him. I wish I had more time with her. But growing up it was all about dad. Now he’s sick and it’s still all about dad. It’s no wonder it’s taken me so many years to work towards taking care of myself without feeling guilty for it.
Well, I’m gonna do what I need to and get some rest. Thanks for the reminder Oxy. You are such a blessing. I so needed to hear from you tonight and I thank God you were here. When I was hurting so badly earlier I truly just wanted to post asking where you were. I know there are so many wonderful people on this site but tonight you were on my mind. Thank you. God truly knows what we need and provides doesn’t he?
God Bless
I
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 12:20am
OxDrover says:
Dear Takingmeback.
I had the PTSD and I know I have had it earlier too and no treatment, just muddled through, but I got the rapid eye movement therapy and I do think it really helped me a GREAT deal. I’m not sure how it works or even if it is just a placebo effect, but whatever it is, it worked for me. I highly recommend it.
I’m glad I was able to help you and I know it helps to know that someone else has also gone through the same or similar things than you have, or knows what aspect you are coiming from.
I’m sorry that your mother has spent so much of her life in the Narcissistic hell on earth, but I am sure there will be a special star for her in her crown in heaven for taking care of her children. Mothers of their generation didn’t have as many opportunities to be independent as we do and so many of them endured and never even thought about escaping from the marriage of horror, but at least she protected her children and that is a STRONG woman to be able to do that.
You obviously have some of her great strength!
Rest and I hope that you get some good rest tonght. God bless.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 12:34am
henry says:
Donna- Thanks for that essay. And for this website. I have healed in way’s that never would have happened had I not had the experience with the P. This website has revealed to me that “The truth will set you free-but first it will piss you off!” I have been in that fog for so long, I was just living life so unaware that I needed too turn my fog light’s on. I have posted some thing’s here I regret. As I continue to read this blog, and become more aware to the devastation and financial ruin and pain and agony and sometimes life altering experience’s so many of these blogger’s have endured and are continuing to endure. My experience with my X sociopath seem’s so trivial in comparison. I blog “talk about” my X (BF) the most, because it was the one that brought me to my knees. But the real truth is my life has been ruled by my ignorance. And so much damage was done to me as a child at my mother’s hand, the mother that I worshiped and put before myself and even before the very people that loved me most. The truth has finally pissed me off and it is time for me to live MY truth the way MY universe connect’s with my soul. Thank you Donna-and to all you blogger’s “you know who you are” that have shared their story’s, shared their fears, shared their giggle’s with me. Thanks too all of you………..!
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 1:10am
blondie says:
i’m feeling like my life is nothing without him. i feel like i will never have a life again. i feel lost without him. i feel like my life will never be rebuilt. my feelings for him will never go away. he took my life from me, thats how i feel. he took my lifestyle from me. he was my life. he was my world. He took my summer away. he was everything to me. i was nothing to him. just a pretend person. why couldt i be his everything. why couldt i be his world like i thought. im sure he is going on with his daily life, and he has friends, he has that same lifestyle. i feel completly empty. im going to wake up everyday and im still goin to be here in this same spot. my life is never going to be filled with friends again. i feel like im never going to find someone who i have feelings for again. its a beautiful day here in the midwest, and im sitting here on my computer alone with my doggies! its just another lonley day of my life
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 1:24pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Blondie, blondie, blondie.. every time you talk like this it’s like you’re speaking for me as well. I guess we are at about the same point.. despair, alternating with hope.. sighs. Keep your chin up girl.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 1:31pm
JaneSmith says:
Takingmeback wrote:
“Oh, funny thought…the S/N/Ps would explode. I think us victims tend to implode. That’s the difference folks between ego-syntonic and ego-dystonic.”
So is that why many of us have internalized our emotional pain & suffering over the years and the result is self loathing, feelings of worthlessness, uselessness, feeling unlovable?
Hmm….very interesting dynamic. I’ve always been the kind of person who literally detested hurting another human being, either physcially and/or verbally. I would take, and take, and take the abuse without saying a word, think slink away to my bedroom and cry my eyes out blaming myself for being such an awful person, otherwise why would someone say such terrible, heartbreaking things to me?
I wish I had the exact words to express to the lovely, wonderful Donna and to all you beautiful people how very much LoveFraud means to me. I don’t think without discovering this site I would be as strong and sure of myself as I am today.
Yes, I will always be a gentle, kind person who still detests hurting others in any form whatsoever, but I will no longer….”bend over for the abuse” (Kathy’s powerful words).
No longer will I allow another human being to tear my self confidence to shreds. No longer will I allow another human being to speak harsh, cruel, undeserved words to me in an effort to destory me. NO MORE, I SAY!!
We are all stronger than we give ourselves credit for. We have all slowly climbed out of our self imposed prisons of failure and have proven to ourselves and to others that we are awesome, loving/lovable women and men.
As I have said so many times never, ever let anyone steal/rob/exploit/pilfer the fundamental truth of yourself. That all of you are brilliant, beautiful, compassionate peeps with valuable knowledge, experience, uncommon wisdom to share with folks of the same ilk, the kindred spirits.
I now wish to extend a sincere, genuine great big cyber HUG for everyone.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 2:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
(slap slap) That;s the sound of me clobbering you up side the head my friend! Your pain is NOT TRIVIAL, NO pain is trivial. Remember what I said about how pain acts like a gas, even if it is a little pain it COMPLETELY FILLS THE CONTAINER it is put into. Your pain is YOUR PAIN and it filled you completely. My pain is MY pain and it filled me COMPLETELY. No one here has “more” pain than anyone else, and no one’s pain is trivial.
The outside damage that they do may be different, but it doesn’t trivialize those of us that didn’t go into bankruptcy or that didn’t lose a leg, an eye or an arm. It devestated us all completely.
That’s one of the great things about this site too, is that we all realize that we may have lost different “things” in terms of money, homes, etc. but it is still a BIG LOSS and no o ne is here trying to say “well, MY loss is bigger than yours” because LOSS is LOSS. PERIOD!!! Now, you write that out 500 times or go stand in the corner! (Joke!) ((((Hug))))
Henry, this thing of realizing that my mother has been involved in all of this enabling and so on my entire life has hit me like a bombshell too. A couple of years ago I actually was so delusional about her being so “honest” and “caring” etc. though looking back I can see the horrible things she has done to me, even as an adult in enabling my P son. And to realize that she actually TRADED ME for the X-DIL and the Trojan HOrse P, threw me away, discounted me entirely, totally overwhelmed me. I would have died for that woman. When she was ill, and daddy was ill, I was there for them 24/7 for months and months. Willingly, because I wanted to be. My demonstrations of my love for her meant nothing to her, if she couldn’t have ABSOLUTE CONTROL over me she didn’t want me at all. Just as the story of Kiing david and his P-son Absalom (go read that in your Bible, in the two Books of Samuel) and how the whole country had fought Absalom to save DAvid’s life and kingdom and when his son was killed in the last battle, his grief was not for the sacrifices of the people but for how own loss of his psychopathic murdering son. David’s general came to him and said “David, I perceive that if we had all died and Absalom had lived, you would have been well pleased.” David, though a sinful man was still a good man, and when his faults were pointed out to him, he always listened, repented and changed his ways. He realized that what the general said was true. I told my own mother the last time we “spoke” about all of this chaos that I felt truly that if I had DIED and my P-son had gotten out of prison to come live with her before she died, she would have been WELL PLEASED. When I saw the look on her face, I knew I was right. If he had succeeded in murdering me but it meant that he got to come home and live with her before she died, she would still have been happy. HOW SICK IS THAT?! Now, she has nothing, because he will never get out of prison during her life (I hope he never does) and she no longer has a daughter that trusts or believes in her. Both of her other grandsons don’t believe in her either or trust her. So she is alone in this world except for the hired caregives she has. What a shame, because it was so unnecessary. But unlike King David, even when her “sins” are pointed out to her, she refuses to acknowledge them or repent or change her ways. This leaves me with only one option—I must accept that she does not love me, and I am not going to torture myself by trying to believe she does. I am going to look at her ACTIONS and the way she treats me, and I must accept that she and my son are both the same, neither of them has my good at heart or loves me. It isn’t what I wanted, but I must accept that, fix my own self, and realize that I don’t need their approval to be a good person, to be approved of by God. I can VALIDATE myself. It would be wonderful to have a mother I could trust, I deluded myself for so long, but it didn’t make me happy. The truth does piss me off, but it has FINALLY SET ME FREE from the pain of delusion and the pain caused because I never could quite make the square pegs fit into the round holes.
Blondie, I know that right now you feel terribly alone, your post shows that, and God alone knows how most of us have felt just the same way, but day by day, step by baby step, we have crawled out of that dark hole we felt we were in. You will too, Blondie! I just know you will, and life will get better!!!! Keep reading, learning and making plans. You are depressed rightn now (and who wouuldn’t be) and our depression makes us feel that we will never feel better, but one foot in front of the other starts the healing journey. Sometimes I feel like I am walking a road as long as Marco Polo walked, and over the same kinds of mountains. Sometimes I have felt so alone that no one on the face of the earth cared if I lived or died, but that is not true! Do something good for yourself, eat a fudge cicle, eat a whole box of Godiva chocolates, get a massage, take your doggie for a walk, even a tiny thing. Go to a nursing home and visit someone who has no family. Do something to make yourself feel good, worthwhile and whole! You are a wonderful and caring person or you wouldn’t be feeling this way. The fact that you feel bad shows you have a HEART. If you didn’t feel bad right now, you would be like THEM, and God Forbid that because what amiserable life it must be to not be able to love! ((((BIG Hugs))))
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 2:47pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I just feel like saying yes, yes, yes to all of you, I sit here and nod all the time when I read all your words.
Do you suppose there are traits alike in us victims too? And why is it that so many of us are intelligent? It makes me feel just so stupid that I fell for this shit AGAIN, after all that I’ve learned too. I guess I just didn’t recognize the latest form of abuse.. after all my cheater ex has never said an unkind word to me.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 5:16pm
Beverly says:
Dear Kat, Every experience brings fresh insight and we just keep increasing and expanding our knowledge. If we missed something or forgot the lesson the first time around, or there is something extra we need to learn, we get the experience back in a different format. So please dont be harsh on yourself, we cannot possibly know everything. I liked the saying ‘Devils know Angels, but Angels dont know Devils’, but I think alot of us are learning fast, as painful as it is.
I always said I would never go out with a brute and my ex never said an unkind word to me, to my face, we never argued – but he was a stealth abuser – I never knew about that before, but I know about it now.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:11pm
LovingAnnie says:
Have you seen this ? Sociopath gets his comeuppance in court !!!
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:28pm
LovingAnnie says:
It is on u-tube, a video of rosemary shell.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:29pm
OxDrover says:
Kat you ask “do you supppose there are traits alike is us victims too”? Yes, I do. I have had various experiences with Ps my entire life. Even after I did realize what they were, that there was a common thread in them “NO CONSCIENCE” I still was DELUSIONAL that the people in my family that I loved could still some way, some how, be fixed—that I could get across to them just how much they hurt me. Hell, Kat, they KNEW, all I was doing was telling them how well they had SUCCEEDED in hurtin gme, because that was their GOAL.
I had to accept that I could not fix them, that they did not love me, and that they would not, could not love me. That there was ONLY ONE way to “fix” the situation and that was to go no contact, to get out. Stay out. Then fix MYSELF so that I would never again become so delusional that I would ignore the RED FLAGS of psychopathic people.
I found I had to learn to set boundaries for EVERYONE, even people I loved. I also found that if those people DID love me, they would respect those boundaries and if they didn’t respect those boundaries, I didn’t want them in my life. NO MATTER IF I GAVE BIRTH TO THEM, OR THEY GAVE BIRTH TO ME. No relationship of blood or anything else was going to make me let anyone run rough shod over me. I have rights. I have dignity and I am going to maintain my own rights and my own dignity. It is only when I give away the POWER to them that I am in danger. As long as I maintain that power over myself, no one will hurt me. It is only when I allow them to CONTINUE to turn me that I have given away my power.
Even now, I could be fooled ONCE by someone. But I won’t be fooled a second time. Trust is earned. Once it is betrayed, I am not going to give someone a second chance. Much less a third and a hundreth or a thousandth chance to “change” to show respect, honesty and caring. Lie to me once and you are out O*U*T of my trust zone. I may still be “nice” when I meet you, I may still be a good neighbor to you, but I will never ever trust you again. If you want my trust in the future you will have to EARN that trust by showing true repentence.
I will and I feel I MUST forgive them (get the bitterness out of my heart for what they have done) but TRUST does not go along with forgiveness automatically.
I’ve been a slow learner in the Psychopathic classes, but now that I have started to “see the light” I know that I must keep on learning, or I will have to repeat the class again and I sure don’t want to do that! LOL
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:32pm
Beverly says:
Dear LovingAnnie, I just watched that short film you suggested, but the viewers comments underneath are very revealing of peoples’ attitudes!!
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:39pm
newworld view says:
kat…there is an ebook called:” women who love sociopaths” i havent read it but i believe it addresses just that issue on common characteristics among women who fall for the jerks……not sure if it can be generalized to men as well
henry, i can feel your smiling energy as oxy slapped you up side the head…and not a minute too soon…lol i was waiting for a piece of that rainbow cake you offerred….lots of icing pls
and blondie…right now they are just words..but soon your brain will say “HEY i cant be his everything ..i cant be his world, because HE doesnt even exist….you want that guy you THOUGHT he was….that was a play, a movie..when you take the stage away he is just a mannequin with clothes on………HE is NOT who you loved…you loved the fantasy, the dream of who wanted him to be………………the good news is , your pain will eventually heal and you have the capacity to love…….he never did and he never ill…dont worry about what he is doing or his life now………it is FAR emptier than yours ….you have the ability to FEEL love from family friends lovers……he NEVER has and NEVER will…………your sufferring is now….HIS is for eternity!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 7:08pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Thanks Newworld..I love all your names, I think they say so much about us as a group. My mom gave me a gift card from Amazon, I think I will use it to read up on some of this stuff.
But Newworld, does it really heal? It has been (let me think) 14 years since I kicked my first husband out of my life, and still the feelings come back to haunt me. Sometimes I feel like the world is not big enough for him and I to share.
Henry, do you remember that song in the sixties.. “The Candyman”
That’s what I think of sometimes when you talk.. you are the best.
Oxy, thank you so much as usual. You are a soothsayer. I am lucky that when I confronted my mom about some of her past abusive behavior and reset my boundaries she (slowly) accepted it. She and I have repaired our relationship beyond anything I ever hoped for as a child. If she had been adamant in her abusive ways, I would have had to close myself off from her like you did. I still can’t find any excuse for the neglect she heaped on me as a child, but I have to say she has done her level best to make up for it in the last ten years.
Now the bad news.. guys I am as weak as I ever was right now. I am going on week 3 of zero contact with my cheater bf, and I am weak weak weak tonight. My heart just aches. I wonder how he can stand to ignore me day after day after day, knowing how I feel. He doesn’t have to come back (hell I wouldn’t take him) but it sure would be nice to know I don’t count for nothing to him.
I have had too much rejection lately I guess. Sorry I’m writing so much today, I’m hanging on to you folks for dear life. I cannot rest or relax today, my heart feels like someone is squeezing it really really hard.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 7:27pm
newworld view says:
gosh kat id love to say it will totally…i can say it will definitely lessen….im only one yr out so to early to tell……..i think our degree and speed of healing depends on what other burdens of emotional pain we still have buried from our earlier yrs…..i think that is what that e book talks about….you must fill us in……………it seems to me that so many of us here were taught or conditioned to put others wants and needs ahead of our own…we were great nurturers to all but ourselves and this may have been the blow needed to get our attention that we MUST care for ourselves and not consider it selfishness………the universe has sent us the next lesson in our journey….thank God we are now on the other end and not having to go through the fantasy again and find out it wasnt real
i have noticed all the interesting names too……….sure says alot about our suffering…………my new world view,shocking at 53 to have FINALLY learned this.is that not all people are good…….there truly are purely evil beings who walk among us
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 10:24pm
OxDrover says:
Kat, I don’t think healing is just about “time passing” but what we DO with that time, what we learn in that time.
There is an old saying about someone having “30 years experience” OR “one year experience 30 TIMES” they are NOT the same. Just doing the same thing like you did the first year, and not growing with it, whatever it is, driving a car, piloting a plane, or whatever, if you dont use that time to learn more and grow, you just are still a “beginner” forever.
I went through P-experience over and over, with my P-bio dad , with this person, that person, etc. and I didn’t LEARN the lessons I should have, so when this whole crisis hit last year, I had to learn from SCRATCH, from the start.
So you spent 14 years after you kicked him out, but you obviously didn’t get the lesson, cause you fell for another one. I did too. OVER AND OVER AND OVER. It is remedial classes in the SCHOOL OF HARD KNOCKS. Either you get the lesson or you GET TO REPEAT IT.
Hun, I’m 61 years old and I don’t want to keep having to go to these same painful classes the rest of what I have left in life. I am flat going to get it RIGHT this time.
I’m not only looking at how they are the SAME, but at HOW I DID THE SAME THING. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and thinking you are going to get a different outcome. I think Albert Einstein said that, but not sure.
Anyway, I am tired of the INSANITY. It is insane for me not to learn what I DID WRONG TO ALLOW THIS REPEAT ABUSE.
The old saying “crap on me once, shame on you, crap on me again, SHAME ON ME!” I am aware I may be fooled again, but you know what, they may fool me once, and do something or say something nasty to me ONE TIME, but they will not get the SECOND chance. It is NOT my responsibility to provide happiness for every person in the world. Or ANY person in the world. I will share my happiiness with anyone who wants to treat me well, but I can’t MAKE anyone else happy. Happiness is a side effect of being a complete and good human being. We can only provide it for ourselves as a by-product of our lives.
I saw a show tonight with Diane Sawyer who was interviewing a man Named Randy Pausch, who was dying with cancer. He was an absolute inspiration to his students and his friends, because he wasn’t “dying” he was ‘LIVING and loving even though he had cancer and knew his time was very limited.
He wrote a book called “The Last Lecture” and I intend to get a copy of his book. Excerpts from his last lecture showed that he WAS STILL HAPPY. Each of us is dying jut like him, ONE DAY AT A TIME…and unlike him we don’t know if our last day is next week or 4 decades away, but we should also be happy. Happy each day that we live. I want his point of view! The only way I can get it is to develop it, to streach myself, my spirit, my strength, my soul to the utter limits of the best that I can do and the best that I can be. I won’t let the damned Ps drag me down. I can’t fix them. I can’t make them love me, but by golly I can LOVE MYSELF. BE MYSELF and CELEBRATE myself. Celebrate the moment!
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 11:07pm
takingmeback says:
Kat, I’m sorry you’ve struggled so much today. Great job with the NC even though it’s painful. I’ve come to understand that even in moments of weakness we are proving our strength to ourselves. You deserve so much more than to be treated in a way that makes you ever question whether you count to someone! Heck yeah you count. You count to those of us who can appreciate you and treat you with the respect you deserve.
A good question is does he really count for anything to you? Sometimes when it hurts I try to think of the opposite of what I’m feeling. Rather than wonder if I ever meant anything to him I think of what he means to me right now. With the truth in front of me. In that perspective I am able to be the one in control and not the victim. I can still experience the pain but the story changes.
Besides, I would rather be on the minds of those who love me and treat me with respect than those cheaters and liars who only think of what they can get from us…not give to us. I guess I don’t want to count to them anymore. If I did my ex S would be back looking to abuse me further.
Hang on Kat. Take care of that precious heart of yours. Feed it with chocolate or with watching your favorite movie or something that soothes it. Just know you are better than your ex because you have a heart in the first place. Please be kind to yourself and nurture yourself. Take care of you first.
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Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 11:37pm
takingmeback says:
Oxy,
I am still waiting to hear back from a contact of mine about EMDR. I asked for a referral. Thank you for sharing how helpful it was for you. Thanks for last night and helping me through such a tough time. You are such a blessing
. You’re truly an angel here on earth!
JaneSmith,
“So is that why many of us have internalized our emotional pain & suffering over the years and the result is self loathing, feelings of worthlessness, uselessness, feeling unlovable?”
Yes, yes, yes
. For those who may not be familiar with the terms. The S/N/Ps have disorders that are “ego-syntonic” which refers to behavior or mental acts, like thoughts, feelings, and desires, which are seen as acceptable to the aims of the ego and the psychological needs of the individual. Thus they fail to see their behavior as a problem and simply consider it as part of their identity. Therefore justifying abusive behavior.
Ego-Dystonic refers to behavior or mental acts, like thoughts, feelings, and desires, which are repugnant or at odds with the aims of the ego and the related psychological needs of the individual. The individual realizes that the behavior is at odds with their concept of self. Thus we experience guilt and feel bad for the very suggestion that we hurt others. S/N/Ps seem to prey on that fact and project blame.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 12:44am
OxDrover says:
You’re very welcome, Takingmeback, glad to help and I hope the Rapid Eye movement therapy helps you as much as it did me. I think it was a godsend.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 2:26am
newworld view says:
taking me back…..the emdr truly works wonders….i thought it was a gimmick, but it was explained to be by a neuro/brain scientist that it very simply changes the pathways already laid down in the brain …..for example a song or a place or a thought will continually trigger sadness and despair and a whole set of emotions……but continually visualizing those thoughts intentionally whil either following a row of repeating lights (or in my case differents sounds of music and nature) can desensitize us to those thoughts by creating NEW neuronal pathways that do not follow the same previous path ……..when using the lights or the music,,,they are designed to continually stimulate BOTH sides of the brain while thinking the emotional triggers….by stimulating BOTH sides of the brain, the new pathways are created that do not allow only the emotional side of the brain to react as the prior pathway has been laid down….almost like making a new memory……….i dont know if i explained that very well…i tried to make it understandable……but i tell you this….no one is more skeptical than me and after one
session on a terribly disturbing event, i am amazed at how the same triggers just dont get the same crippling emotional response from me…….i am a believer good luck
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 5:52am
OxDrover says:
Dear Newworldview,
Thank you for explaining to me how it works, I didn’t know HOW or WHY only that it DID work, and AMAZINGLY FAST, which is what was so truly amazing about it. The odd thing too was that though I was focusing on the trauma of the plane crash and fire in which my husband died, it seemed as it if also helped me with other traumatic memories. I too am skeptical about a lot of things, but this one sure proved to be a BIG success and I highly recommend it to others for the traumatic things we have all experienced.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 7:05am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
thx guys.
Did I learn my lesson? I thought I did. I have read, struggled and studied for years, worked hard at getting all abusers out of my life.
I think my big mistake this time was letting him into my heart before I checked him out thoroughly. Last summer when he first started showing me he can’t be faithful, I was already too hooked to completely shut him off. I was lonely, and I wanted to believe.
I think I’ve learned a whole lot, but I may never be the hard, self-reliant person you have to be these days to completely protect yourself from victimizers.
NWV thank you.. I have decided to feed my soul with healthy behaviors and hope to lose some weight. I’m really thankful I didn’t move in with him or worse, marry him as he begged me to. I’m glad I still have my apt. and that I moved ahead with my life and finished college. It could have been worse, but I just wonder if I will ever meet someone who can make me forget.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 8:26am
OxDrover says:
Kat, you have such a positive outlook, and such a good head on your shoulders that of course you can meet someone when the time is right, and next time you won’t be paranoid, but you will be CAUTIOUS. There’s a big difference in being paranoid (I think we mostly are right afterwards) and being cautious….anyone should be safety conscious, especially US. Just like I am cautious when I drive alone at night, or where I drive alone, and you don’t expect to get robbed but you lock your doors, etc. That’s being cautious. That’s using good sense. I think we’ve all had a good lesson in GOOD SENSE and I don’tthink many of us will forget it either.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 10:28am
little says:
i’m new. i’ve been reading and reading this blog for days now. you guys are a Godsend!
the truths posted above are exactly on target. my H was diagnosed five years ago. he’s been on meds and in treatment on and off since the diagnosis. stupid me. it’s taken me this long to finally start getting my mind around it.
i lived for 18 years with this man (16 years married) in this pathetic cycle like charile brown trying to kick the football lucy is supposed to hold for him. time after time after time i’ve given him the benefit of the doubt and end up on my back, wind knocked out staring up at the sky. and more usually than not, he walks over to me and kicks me a few times (while i’m already down) because he feels i’ve tried to manipulate him into holding the football for me. he feels i’ve tried to use and abuse him.
i need to find the strength to stop this cycle.
i have a back injury that has left me unemployed and in chronic pain. i have to believe the stress of this marriage is a huge contributing factor to my health problems. i live in a small town and have been systematically discredited by my h (“he seems so sincere in trying to help you with YOUR problems”), money is tight (H makes a good living – now, though that’s always dependent on his abilities and moods) but i don’t know where the money goes.
so i have some things i need to put into order.
but at the moment i am still reeling from the latest round of abuse . . . and no one, absolutely NO ONE around me can even begin to comprehend what i’m dealing with . . . not my primary physican (who is telling me to try drinking milk before bedtime to help me sleep – i haven’t slept more than four hours a night in three weeks) . . . not any of my friends i’ve tried to reach out to . . . not the therapist i made an appointment with (he told me to get some sleep and see him again in three weeks) . . . there isn’t anyone. . .
i know now more than i’ve ever known before that i need to be responsible for my own healing. i’ve been spending the last few days barely functioning, but i’ve been reading (here mainly) but i also went to a book store (it took all the effort i had) and bought some books on griefing and healing from trauma. for the first time ever in my adult life, i’m going to concentrate on acknowelging the trauma i’ve been experiecing and concentrate on healing.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 11:19am
henry says:
Little.. Welcome. The people here will help you heal. Please post as much as you want, someone will respond and help you. I want to suggest two book’s by Richard Skerrit “Learning from Madness” and “Tears to Healing” you will have to order them online. They are not self help book’s but explain’s personality disordered people, what motivate’s them and why. They really helped me. And google “Romeo is Bleeding” that is really a good essay. Hang in there-One of the blog Ladies will respond to you soon. This is a starting place for you and you will get better……
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 11:36am
Beverly says:
Welcome Little. As Fighter says on Cyberpaths, naievity is the enemy – knowledge is power and in the end, it can just come down to survival – that’s how it was for me.
It sounds as though you are still living with your husband, is there a way you could have a break or go to stay with friends or family for a while, to let your body settle abit?
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 12:03pm
Tood says:
What an excellent article! I join all the others who praise its simplicity and truth. Here are my unsolicited reactions:
1. The sociopath never loved us.
That’s a bitter pill for sure. But I can say, from experience, that once you have fully faced that fact that you were not loved–and in fact may never have been loved in your entire lifetime—you can mourn it and transcend it. Today I know love exists, because I can love, and I do my best to express it in a less individualized way. My love is bigger and yet diffuse, less needy and more empathetic, more real than ever before.
2. Other people just don’t understand.
Nor will they. You can’t communicate, even to a professional, what you have just been through. The only way to gain this knowledge is the way we did—we experienced every euphoric high and soul-crushing low. We have a knowingness that sets us apart.
3. Credit card companies don’t care that we’ve been defrauded.
Nor do banks, rich relatives, poor relatives, bill collectors, or friends. If you go to some social service agency, be strong, for they are too overworked to care much, and may in fact speak to you in the same way your abuser did. Do the best you can to recover financially. It may take years, but when you have worked yourself out of the pit your abuser left you in, there will be such a sense of accomplishment and pride for you! You will find a joy in doing simple things, like buying yourself a fancy cup of coffee. You will stop being so afraid when the phone rings or the mail comes. You will become a responsible adult, something sociopaths are totally incapable of being.
4. Legal authorities cannot cope with sub-criminal sociopaths.
Chances are slim that you will see justice, period, even if crimes are committed. My ex committed incest, rape, financial fraud, and possibly even murder. He was arrested on only one charge, but I expect him to get away with it. Already he has conned someone into posting his bail, and his friends are holding benefits for him. People in town treat me as a criminal, and feel sorry for him having to face “false charges.” His ability to lie is otherworldly.
But we do have one advantage, post-sociopath. If yours was like mine and loved to work the legal system with his schemes and deals, you learned that being in a courtroom is not the end of the world. You learned to testify and not be intimidated by hostile lawyers.
5. Media images of sociopaths are wrong.
So very wrong. The sociopaths rarely show their evil, even to their victims. After 20 years with my ex, he showed me what was behind the mask only twice. And I went weak in the knees with shock and fear. Most of the time they are charming, jovial, wonderful people. That’s why they pick people like us—to imitate. To absorb mannerisms, expressions, words and reactions from.
Truths that set us free
6. Evil exists.
I find that even people in the clergy cannot really comprehend this one. Everyone wants to believe that there is some good in everyone. Sometimes, there is not. Sometimes, people are evil. Sometimes some of us encounter them and live to tell about it.
7. Our intuition knows better.
Don’t listen to excuses, even when they are delivered in a tone that implies “everyone knows this, why are you so paranoid.” You’re not paranoid, at least not at the beginning of the relationship. All your systems are running well. Listen to the little voice, and get the hell out.
8. We cannot save the sociopath.
You can’t get through to them. You can’t trap them with rational argument. You can’t teach by example. You can’t show them the way. You can’t make them feel. You can’t expend more patience, more time, more money, more anything. You can’t save them from their disorder. They like their disorder. It is who they are.
9. We must learn discrimination.
Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. We must create them and strengthen them.
10. We are responsible for our own healing.
They gave us what we told them we wanted, early on. What was it we wanted, and why? It may take us years to ferret it out. For me, it was the unconditional, protective love that I never received as a child. Once I realized this simple truth, I was on the fast track to recovery. Reading and learning are important. Journaling, for me, was essential. Processing all the emotions, for as long as it takes. I read my journals now (four years after the Unmasking) and I am amazed at the number of times I went back and forth, hoping that the truth I knew was not, in fact, the truth. I searched for ways to believe he was human. There were none. And once I found out about all his crimes, some perpetrated on my children, there was a huge dead weight lifted from me and I no longer cared one whit about him. I certainly don’t love him anymore, nor do I hate him. He doesn’t even exist to me. He is a nonentity.
Now that I’m closer to healed (I doubt I will ever fully get over the experience), I have more self-knowledge than ever before. I have cut certain harmful people out of my life. I am a better mother. I am a better person. Almost nothing scares me now, though I do battle free-floating anxiety and depression and probably will for quite a while. But I am not scared of the world anymore. Especially, I am not scared of being who I really am.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 12:15pm
JaneSmith says:
Little,
It’s such a relief to see you’re back with us. I was more than concerned after your last post on another thread.
Did you contact a local shelter, domestic abuse center as Aloha and Oxy suggested? We all want you to seek help where ever you can. We can chat with you, support, comfort you, but only you can make the first move to leave your x husband. I think that’s the only way you will be able to recover your health and your peace of mind, to strive to be NO CONTACT.
And I will reiterate that we all do emphatically BELIEVE every single word you are saying. We know you’re not crazy. You have been systematically used and abused, manipulated, deceived, and gaslighted and those are not normal behaviors of a good person, but of an evil pathological sociopath.
Do what you need to do to help yourself during this perpetual nightmare that you are in. LoveFraud members will be here for you, day & night.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 12:42pm
JaneSmith says:
Hi Todd!
Glad you could join the LoveFraud fellowship. And you have offered some excellent personal wisdom and knowledge from your own harrowing experience(s) with personality disordered invidivuals.
Thank you very much!
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 12:52pm
JaneSmith says:
Tood not Todd, I apologize for mistaking your user name.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 2:03pm
Beverly says:
JaneS. I sent you a bunch of pics. ((hugs))
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 2:05pm
Tood says:
JaneSmith,
No problem. It’s Tood as in Toodle-oo. Silly, huh?
T .
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 2:54pm
newworld view says:
welcome little….amazing the hidden meanings behind the names weve chosen…..many times represents how the creatures made us feel
oxy…….glad that helped…i wrote it to yu awhile back, but you may have missed that note…..i know, i know its hard to pay attention when henry is in the house……just teasing henry…..your are our favorite stud in here….
and it is true that it has helped with other traumas and it is amazing how quickly it lightened the burden………….we can do it ourselves with certain nature cds that vary sound from the right ear to the left while thinking about traumatic or troubling thoughts….i dont have the discipline to do it alone….
and toodles…i love your unsolicited reactions to the feature article…especially number 10
“They gave us what we told them we wanted, early on. What was it we wanted, and why? It may take us years to ferret it out. For me, it was the unconditional, protective love that I never received as a child.
wow…so how did you fasttrack to recovery with this info….any little tips??
id love to try them terri
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 4:08pm
OxDrover says:
Little, I am so glad that you are back! We were all so concerned when we didn’t hear back from you. It sounds like you are gaining knowledge and strength! We are here for you in any way that we can possibly be to help you to help yoursellf.
While you make your plans, be sure to keep them absolutely secret from everyone except someone from a shelter. I hope you will at least call them.
If possible start to put a few dollars here and there and all your papers together in case you must make a quick get away. I’m glad thatyou bought some books but make sure you keep them where he can’t see them. Try not to outwardly change your attitude to him so he won’t get suspicious.
I am really glad that you are gaining some strength. (((Hugs)))) and you are in my prayers.
Dear Tood,
Glad you are here also, great information thatyou posted andyou have obviously gained some hard wisdom. Welcome to the little community of survivors here, we are so glad you have come.
Newworld view, I hadn’t thought about doing it at home, but I will see what supplies (CDs or whatever) that are available.
I went for my quarterly visit to my psychiatrist today and I talked to her about rapid eye movement therapy and she is going to learn more about it. She was quite interested in referring more of her PTSD patients for it since it seemed to be so good for me.
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 7:27pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Little.. so glad to see you here. All my thoughts with you as you start this long journey. Remember the old cliche.. the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Tood.. awesome thoughts on the essay. I’m sitting here nodding and nodding as I read through them. Lol on your name, my kids nicknamed my second husband that (his name is todd) because he always has a “tude”
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Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 9:59pm
JaneSmith says:
Tood,
Nope, not silly at all. You know you’re preaching to the choir regarding silliness, being goofy..haha.
Kat,
haha…too funny.
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Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 11:46am
bird says:
My exsociopath keeps writing to me and he wrote again.
I am going to write back here instead:
Dear Sociopath,
Stop writing to us you abusive, crazy, sociopath! You abondoned us and now you keep coming back to regain control and abuse us again! Stop. At least be a man and abandon us completely. Leave us alone! Leave us alone and stop harrassing and stalking us. We don’t want you around! Leave us alone!!! I wish you would die in a car accident so that we wouldn’t have to deal with you anymore. Our lives are better if you would leave us alone. Don’t ever write to me again!
Sincerely,
Bird
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 11:52am
OxDrover says:
Dear Bird! WELL DONE!
And that is exactly what he is trying to do is to control you. It is also possible that his latest “soul mate” has seen the truth and chunked him out on his fat butt and so he is trying to go back and reestablish a relationship with you until he can find “another sould mate” to abandon you and the Birdie with. What JERKS THEY ARE. Once they ever had us they think that they can just put us in cold storage for the next time they need something and we will come running back.
I a so proud of how strong you have become Bird and that is what Birdie needs is a strong mommie to protect the Birdie from the VULTURE out there that would hurt the Birdie.
You know it is almost FUNNY when you think about what they do to us and then think that all they have to do is send us a letter or a text message or an e mail and THEY ARE SO WONDERFUL no matter what they have done that we will just fall at their feet! WHAT UTTER ARROGANCE they have! Personally if I treated someone the way they have treated us I would NEVER have the gaul to show my face again. Sheesh! What jerks!
BTW how is the Birdie doing? Keeping you up much? Be sure and be good to YOU too Bird, and give that sweetie a bit hug from Auntie Oxy. Love, Oxy
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 12:27pm
JaneSmith says:
Most excellent letter there, Bird.
Here’s mine to your x:
Dear Bird’s x sociopath,
YEAH! What the lovely Bird said! Go away and leave her the hell alone! You have caused too much damage and now she is over you, got it? She doesn’t need you are your psycho crap any longer! In fact, she didn’t need you are it EVER! She is a powerful, beautiful, uber strong woman, a concept you will never relate to, never understand as your brain is the size of a pea. As is your heart, which is a sooty black dot in the middle of your chest!
Desist with further communication or be prepared to face the consequences of your actions! (I always say this with folks that piss me off…haha)
Vehemently NOT yours,
Bird’s LoveFraud cyber Friend, Jane Smith
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 12:31pm
JaneSmith says:
well….pooh…suppose to be “or” not “are”, but I think the meaning is clear even if the grammar is incorrect…haha.
My hurried writing is the result of 1 too many cups of coffee in the morning. yeah, that’s my story and I’m stickin to it!…:)
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 12:34pm
blondie says:
i know that we can not change them, but sometimes i think inside that i hope maybe one day on there own, they will change on there own. like maybe one day they will wake up and c what they do and how they act. but thats all just a dream that will never come true!
anytime you have contact with them, it sets you back, even just a step. its never worth ever speaking to them
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 1:02pm
almost_free says:
I once said to my ex-P “the truth will set you free”, and he responded with, “what, are you religous now?” They do not change – they see no need for change. What they do works for them.
Seeing my ex-P pick up his new victim while he had our children in the car completely threw me for a loop yesterday. Just when I thought I was completely done with the whole trauma. I believe the trauma will always be with us, it just eases up with time. Seeing this woman, who looked just like me but 15-20 years younger was like stabbing me in the heart all over again.
I know he is not capable of loving anyone or anything. I know he never loved me at all. It just still can hurt so very much.
This set me back, but I keep going forward. I know I am a good person, an honest, trust-worthy person. He never deserved someone like me. He is pure evil. I have seen it in his face. I have seen him turn from Mr. Charming to the devil himself.
I wish I could have completely no contact with him, but it’s difficult when you have children together.
My ex-P would never write me, or try to contact me on any personal level – to him, I no longer exist. It is the only way he can survive. He devalued me and discarded me… just like that. 14 years of his lies, and one day, he was gone. He said to me, “I can’t promise not to be cruel, because I don’t know what cruelty is”.
I sometimes wonder how I have survived all of this, but I have. All of us on this site have somehow survived. It makes us stronger, I know. It builds character, I know. But it doesn’t make it any easier.
And the friends and family that don’t get how I can even think about him anymore… why I can’t just get over it. There’s no way to even respond to them anymore. Unless you’ve come head to head with a P/S/N, there is no way to understand.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 2:06pm
blondie says:
almost free, i agree with you 100%. just when you think your doing ok, something happens that puts you right back in it.
i wake up everyday anxious. does anyone know that feeling? im stressed and anxious everyday. i completly lost myself in this relationship, and i have no clue who iam. i have no self esteem, no confiendence. i find myself depressed. i dont find enjoyment in anything that i normal would. going out to eat doest seem fun anymore. i just got a new car yesterday bc my lease was up, im not even excited about it. just stayin at home seems like the best thing. im going thru alot of pain right now in my life.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 2:45pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Dear Blondie,
Hang in there girl. Just today for the first time in months I woke up feeling normal. I’m actually starting to remember who I am, and what my plans were before all this crap. It’s annoying to see how far set back I am, but still it’s a good feeling to realize I am still me in here.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 5:19pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Blondie,
The things you say about how you feel are pretty much a “diagnosis” of DEPRESSION. Depression involved in a LOSS is a very normal thing. I’m not sure how LONG you have been depressed, but you might seriously think about either some counseling or maybe even some medication, at least short term to help you through this stretch, especially if this mood has gone on for several months..
(((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 6:00pm
Lib says:
I really look forward to sitting down and reading these posts when I have time. I also love everyones names. My mother called me Little Llibby as a child and I choose Lib as a shortened version of Liberated and to represent that innocent time.
Ox,
I saw Randy Pausch’s last lecture on UTube, (so I didn’t have yet another book to read.)
TakingMeBack,
I have the name of a great EMDR therapist in the midwest if you could use it. I did not use her, but a friend did for unresolved issues with her parents and although the problem still exists for her, she compared it to approximately a year of therapy.
Kat, Blondie and Little,
I have also found myself pacing around my home, barely functioning, not able to do what I want or need to, procrastinating until I can go to sleep. Kat, I am going to make it to Sunday w/o him in my home (I didn’t say NC though) for a two week celebration – congrats on your three weeks.
I want to say a couple things about No.2 above. Yesterday, I informed my co-worker, who I celebrated one wk. of S not in my home with and who I thought was “getting it” that I needed to drop off mail, journals, reading glasses etc to the S. after work. I needed support to be strong. She told me, “Just say, come her as if you are going to kiss him, then lick his face. Do someething you have never done before, he will wonder why and you’ll keep him curious about you.” She told me this as if I should try to tease him and want me more. I was so, so dissappointed. After a few hours of procesessing this and of convincing myself that I am okay before I see him. I saw him, gave him his bag of stuff outside of his place, then he asked me how I was(Augh, this is where he usually gets me.) I got as much slopper on my tongue as I could, licked his face, said “i’m okay” in an upbeat tone, and skipped back to my van. I don’t know if this was good or not, but it ended up feeling good.
Today, a woman came into my office, no appointmentand crying. She wanted out of her apartment lease because her X of 5 years who she stated was “abusive in a way I can’t explain and who molested my daughter, is getting out of jail” She went on to describe NSP traits and report that the attorneys didn’t get it and there wasn’t any evidence. She feared for her well being and her daughters safety. I may have given her a little more understanding than she has received, but ended up giving her the usual info and she hugged me when she left. I listened to her, but am so caught up in my own shit right now, she probably left thinking I really didn’t get it either. I have to be okay. I have the perfect opportunity to start a Dangerous Man group where I work and I want to be a person who “gets it” for others.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 8:08pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lib,
We do do some “ca-raze-eeee” things, Licking his face, LOL I’m not sure if it was a good thing or a bad thing either, but I am laughing my butt off wondering what the heck is he thinking.
Also, Lib, you may have given that woman more support than you can possibly know. Just listening to her was probably more than others had done for her. BTW Attorneys never get it either! I think half of them are Ns anyway. A lot of them sure act like it.
I’m sorry your friend that told you to lick his face, though, really didn’t get it, but that seems to be the “usual” thing. That’s why LF is soooooo important to sooooo many people, we can be VALIDATED AND BELIEVED here. (((hugs)))) LOL LOL LOL ROTFLMAO!! Thanks for the laugh, LF bloggers have given me two belly laughs today! SUPER!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 31 July 2008 @ 9:05pm
Lib says:
Thank you for “listening” I don’t know who in my life would understand the thoughts, time and energy that I have put into delivering his stuff to him or the simple fact that I licked his face with slobber. Only you guys. Thank you.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 7:07am
Lib says:
Blondie,
Yes I know the feeling. Just last week I was having days like yours. This morning I feel good. Tommorrow I may want to stay under the covers all day, but I can’t. Like Kat stated, she’s starting to remember who she is. It’s like climbing a mountain. It’s not a straight shot uphill. You have to find the best spot to put your feet, then your faith. Sometimes you have to take a step back or sideways before you can more forward again. I’ve known what “my” S was for a year and a half, and still have some contact, but I know I will get to the top of the mountain. Keep climbing, you have your support lines right here, you’re going to make it. We all will.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 7:24am
newworld view says:
bird…not sure if you wanted suggestions…but the way to get him to stop FOREVER and be able to heal once and for all is to tell him you have all his emails saved and have reported him for harassment and stalking…and they are tracking his mail…..this will put a stop immediately…they dont want to be identified or tracked…more than anything they cant afford to have their mask taken off….he will stop
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 7:58am
Tood says:
newworld view,
You asked if I had any recovery tips. Ha! I was such a basket case at the beginning, all I could do was sit on the couch and rock back and forth, smoking cigarette after cigarette. It was a full year before I could really place my attention on something other than “the situation.”
I had a coworker who had gone through much the same experience (they are more and more common these days, aren’t they?), and she understood my happiness when I could report “I watched an entire hour-long television show today.”
All I can offer is “read, read, read.” And “write, write, write.” And of course, no contact with the abuser.
My epiphany came after I put two and two together in my journals, so to speak. I wrote, truthfully, that “All I had ever wanted was someone to be nice to me.” I wrote, truthfully, on another day that “All I had ever sought was someone ‘more than me.’”
So I realized that what I had wanted was someone bigger, stronger, “more” than me who would take care of me and treat me with kindness. What sort of person was that? A parent, I realized.
It sounds so simple and trite now, but at the time it was like the dark clouds opening and realization streaming in. I was seeking in a husband what I never received as a child. And my abuser, a practiced con man, saw that immediately and gave me “everything I ever wanted.” Until, of course, he was finished with me and my family.
One more thing: I share everyone’s amusement and indignation at the sociopaths’ arrogance in thinking they can just get us back at the drop of a hat. After four years of every kind of cruelty and lie you can imagine (and well before I learned of the criminal acts), the last words my ex said to me were “Do you have any money? Let’s run away to Cancun!”
I had some money. But I didn’t let him know that. And I turned him down, laughing all the time. It felt so good.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 10:25am
OxDrover says:
DEar Tood,
That was a really really good post (above) and I can so ssooooo relate to the rocking back and forth, and even not being able to read or watch TV. I literally couldn’t keep enough numbers in my head at one time to write down an entire phone number in one (or even two) tellings. I couldnt’ read a complete sentence and keep it in my head long enough to read the next one in the paragraph. It is debilitating.
Can we say STRESS, Children?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 10:31am
bird says:
newworldview-
Nice!
OxD and Jane-Thanks for the support. What did people do before this website? It is so healthy for me to get it off my chest and to receive support.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 11:12am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Birdie, I know you need this liar out of your life, but realize these guys can con the cops, they can con the courts, and they can con social services. It’s better if you try to keep him in your line of sight, like a snake in your backyard, because chances are if he pushes for it, he will get visitation rights.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 11:53am
JaneSmith says:
I’ve been pondering a particular thought, idea in the last few days so allow me to share it with you:
I was wondering, what is the fascination with wanting to see, talk, be with a PDI after realizing, coming to terms with the fact that he/she is a predator?
That he/she seemed to be on a mission to destroy not only ourselves, but our intrinsic goodness, compassion, acceptance, forgiveness, our beautiful souls yet…..we yearn to be a part of their lives in some way even though we were once (or still) torn, bruised and broken by their malicious, selfish abuse.
Is it really love or is it maybe our hopes in wishing to fix whatever is inherently wrong with our Xs? That maybe if the unchangeable predator is completely receptive to how naturally good, kind and loving we are that they will do a total turn around and become good themselves?
I don’t know, but that sounds like wishful, deluded thinking. And yes, I’ve been many times guilty of wanting a different outcome than the one that was delivered upon me.
But in hindsight, I consider my stubborn, arrogant, foolish notions to be a waste of my precious time and energy in regards to altering a pathological person. It can’t be done. Not by me and not by you, maybe not even professional therapists/Doctors/clinicians.
As I have unburdened myself, surrendered my cares and worries to the Lord years ago, so shall I in leaving the PDIs in his most competent hands.
I probably don’t really have much to offer LoveFraud except for compassion, care, love and concern for the members who are still reeling with discovery and emotional suffering. And I don’t wish to offend anyone with my silly, mischievous humor as that would be cruel in my mind.
I’m continuing my journey of striving to live a Holy Spirit driven, righteous life, wanting to share the boundless love of the Lord that is manifesting through me, to any and all who wish to listen, who wish to share of themselves also.
As my comments have shown, I am healed and happy though the road has been long, arduous, taxing at best the struggle has been immensely rewarding and beneficial to me and for me.
I would wish to reiterate to all you peeps that truly loving yourself, being there for you, standing up for you is the only way to fly. The blinders have been lifted from my eyes, and yes the truth not only pissed me off, with it’s ugly sordidness, but it has liberated me beyond my hopes and dreams.
Remember, you are valuable, important in your own precious existence and please don’t let anyone take that from you.
God bless you and keep you….
Kim
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 12:43pm
little says:
i really appreciate all of the support here. as i’m sure all of you already know, this is the ONLY place where anyone “gets” it.
again, my H is diagnosed . . . years ago . . . and i’m determined to make the progress i need to, to get out of this situation. i don’t know why i’ve been so stupid for so long. yes, even now, i’m still living with him. he was gone on a business trip sunday thru thursday, so i luckily had a bit of a break from the chaos. he left this morning early for work and won’t be back until late (after 10 p.m.). he travels a lot for business and is scheduled to be gone for three weeks next month also. still, i’m scrambling to find a place to stay this weekend. i’m not in any physcial danger, but i feel like my emotional life depends on keeping my distance.
i’m in a daze, sleep deprived, and have a lot of pain in my back and neck . . . i’m not making a lot of sense (to myself or anyone) these days. i’m just trying to put one foot in front of the other and not be too hard on myself about my (lack of) progress.
yesterday i took my oldest daughter to the mall. she needed makeup for a wedding she is standing up in. she also has severe allergies, so we were doing research on hypoa-allergenic makeup. it was overwhelming to me . . . but i did it! in the begining of the day, i didn’t think it would be possible to accomplish this sort of task. it took everything i had, but i did it!!
i’m so all-over-the-place with my thinking, but i wanted to make a few points and see if anyone has any insights because these things are just nagging at me . . .
1) my H is not shelfish with money. he is completely self centered in so many ways, but not about money. i said before in a post that he makes a good living and i’m not sure where the money goes (and that is truthful), but i think that’s more about mismanagement than anything else. i recently told him that i needed money for a retaiiner fee for an attorney to file for legal separation and he had a check expressed to me the next day. he has also been good to my daughters from a previous marriage. he pays their college tutions, gives them spending allowances and pays for things like their cell phones bills and car insurances.
this just seems like strange behavior for a sociopath. Any thoughts??
2) i’m convinced he feels very, very, very sorry for himself a lot . . . the more sorry for himself the more he becomes abusive. and he can feel sorry for himself about ANYTHING (ie; the light didn’t turn green fast enough, it rained, etc). there is almost something about him that is steaped in shame. he’s always said this strange thing whenever he’s done something really horrible. he says, “you think it’s bad being abused. how would you like being the abuser??”
also not long ago, i asked him to tell me something from his childhood – because he never talks about anything from his past. he told me a story where his grandmother had family pictures displayed in her basement bar area. he was particularily attracted to a picture of himself (not surprise!) of himself as a toddler. in the picture he was in a “time out” and being punished for something . . . he still had tears in his eyes, but had stopped crying by the time the picture was taken. he said he use to stare at the picture for hours on end. he said in the most exesperated voice, “why in the world would someone have taken such a picture and why would anyone display it!”
and all i could think was “what was your compulsion to stare at it for hours at a time?”
any thougths?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 2:28pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Little,
I can “hear” your strength returning in your posts! So I think you are really making progress.
To answer your questions–with my opinion only–sometimes they use payments of money or gifts as a control tool. To keep you hanging around to take the abuse.
Seondly. Yes, he does feel sorry for himself, not for you but for HIMSELF. He actually sees himself as the VICTIM. That commend about “If “you think it’s bad being abused. How would you like being the abuser?”
OMG!!! Let’s see if we can interpret this. “you think its bad being abused means “I know I am abusing you.” and the second part of “How would you like being the abuser?” means even though I am abusing YOU, you should have pity on ME.
OMG! Dear dear Little, this man is SOOOO psychopathic! So typical in so many ways, and it is totally all about HIM not about you.
I am so glad that you are NOT in physical danger. Your first posts left the impression that the man could kill you at any moment so I was very concerned, as were others here, about your physical safety. And, at the time you may have felt physically threatened, most of us have at one point in time or another.
If you do intend to leave this man and he will give you the money to obtain a place to stay and an attorney, that of course would be the best way, but my GUESS is that he will not give up CONTROL as easily as might be imagined.
Good luck, LIttle and keep reading and learning and making a plan. A logical, rational and safe plan for YOU. (((Hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 2:54pm
little says:
Oxdrover,
thank you sososos much for your response. yes, i do see how sick the “how would you like to be the abuser???” thinking is. i understand how a victims objections to being abuse enrages a sociopath . . . it brings to mind the victiousness of some serial killers . . . when they become enraged that their victim is objecting to dying.
i’m sorry if i mislead you initially regarding my physical danger. i don’t ever feel like my H will fly off the handle and stab me to death or something . . . but i do often feel like he is intentionally pushing me to hurt myself. i’m not proud to admit i’ve had those sorts of thoughts many times. when i first posted here, i had been seriously considering it (i flushed all my painkillers the day i posted here because i thought i might use them to od. . . now i have to deal with the pain. in some ways, i’m feeling like i’ve worn out my usefulness as a supply source for my H and he would rather i be gone . . . and he could be the victim again (the greifing widower).
the thing that keeps me hanging on by a thread is my two college aged daughters. how could i leave them at such an impressional point in their life with this sociopath??
but i’m starting to realize that holding on to dear life for their sake isn’t a long term plan. in a few years, when they’ve moved on to their own lives and (hopefully stable) support systems, i will become expendable.
also, it scares me sometimes with how quickly i seem to rebound from despire. but i’ve come to recognize that i only rebound in order to help someone else. i got out of bed yesterday to help my daughter get makeup. even to me this seems ridiculous . . . i mean it’s only makeup. but i can’t seem to get out of bed to do the simplest things for myself . . . to eat . . . to brush my teeth.
when i was at the mall yesterday, i was determined to purchase a shirt for myself (just to prove i could). we bought makeup for my daughter and then a shirt and jeans for her. when it was time to shop for myself, i was overcome with exhaustion and fear . . . and i don’t know what . . . it was just incomprehensible to make a purchase for myself.
i’m scared by that.
i’m sorry i’m rambling . . .
of course, money = power/control. duh . . . how did i not make that simple equation for myself? deep down i’ve always thought (hoped) that money = an apology/ an acknowledgement of how he was wrong.
so why does he have a complusion for feeling sorry for himself??
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 3:37pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Little,
Because like Narcissis (the Mythical god) he is only able to see his own point of view. He cannot see (or CARE) other’s pain. If he has a hang nail it is the end of the world, if you had your leg cut off at the time he had the hang nail, he would tell you to stop whining that HE is in terrible pain.
They are not able to love. They have NO empathy. They just are not hard-wired in their brains to enable them to see other people as anything but “supply” for themselves. Either someone to adore them or someone for them to punish. They see THEMSELVES as the victim. No the money isn’t an “apology” because he has done (in his mind) nothing wrong. You deserve it. Yet, he knows he has to use something to CONTROL you.
The symptoms you are describing of no energy to do something for yourself is a sign that you need some help. You are obviously DEPRESSED (that not being able to get out of bed to care for your own needs) I would suggest that you go to a physician, preferably a psychiatrist and see ifyou can’t get some medication for depression. BTW it will also most likely help you cope with your chronic pain as well. And some therapy to help you get your head on straight and start taking care of YOU. You don’t deserve to live like this, you deserve to live a happy and good life, to have a life as something more than a “dog to kick” or for your daughters. You deserve to LIVE FOR YOURSELF.
Chronic pain is another big thing that depresses anyone. And, depression makes the pain worse, so it is a big circle. Breaking out of that circle is a difficult but very rewarding job, and I think is important for your own welfare. Depression=pain=depression and so on round and round.
Being trapped in an abusive marriage along with the chronic pain and chronic depression is enough to make anyone think “crazy” thoughts, but please–make a pact with yourself and all your Love Fraud friends that you will NEVER EVER HARM YOURSELF. Come here post, rant, vent, scream, cry, post anyting, it doesn’t even h ave to make sense, just scream it out–there will be someone here to reply. This is one of the most compassionate places in the world because we have ALL been “there” feeling trapped, down, depressed, alone, etc.
I will keep you in my prayers Little and my thoughts. I am glad that you are starting to poke your head out of the hole of depression and helplessness and pain. I can’t crawl out of that hole for you, but I will cheer you on every inch of the way until you are here celebrating your freedom from the deep dark hole in the ground! (((hugs))))
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Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 5:25pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Hey Little… I totally believe and “get” that your emotional well being depends on keeping your distance. I also think some of his childhood stories tell you some of his problems.. what kind of a person banishes their kid to the basement for hours as a punishment? I know my first husband received terrible abuse and neglect as a kid. I think it warps their minds, turns them into monsters. You are right to get away from him.
About his being generous with his money, I don’t really understand why either, but I had money troubles with all the P’s in my life. One would make money disappear, then be “generous” with what was left. The second one shares, but only when he wants something in return. And last but not least, my ex-cheater bf was very kind and generous, but has a bad habit of also taking a lot of money from women and family, which surely doesn’t help his problem. I think they are just weird about money.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 6:15pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
And.. Little.. about the shopping for yourself.. totally totally hear you. I can barely make myself take a shower lately, it’s bad, it’s like I am trying to punish myself.. I dunno. I feel like I’m starting to recover a little bit lately though.
Here’s what I think it might be, at least in my case. If I take a shower, put on nice clothes, buy myself something, eat, wear makeup, it’s like I’m pretending nothing is wrong. It’s like I’m trying to get the whole world to see that SOMETHING IS WRONG.
So just the past few days, I decided to put all my anger and rage towards getting even by taking good care of myself. Now suddenly I have the energy to do it, because I’m using my anger . STill not healthy I guess but I had to do something.
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Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 6:18pm
newworld view says:
toodles absolutely…tks i always knew somewhere i was probably looking for a parent….but through your journaling you discovered the bigger, stronger me was also representative of wanting a parent…..i think i always knew that but just didnt want to admit it …weird ……..
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 6:50pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
One of the codependency self help books I used to study said that often victims become victims because they are “trained” in childhood to put up with too much from others, and that you have to retrain yourself. They called this process “reparenting”
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 8:33pm
OxDrover says:
Kat,
OH, YES!!! 1000 TIMES YES!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 1 August 2008 @ 8:54pm
henry says:
Little- Oh My! I so know how you are feeling. The anxiety and confusion and depression and physical pain. I remember just a few month’s ago being so out of touch with anything. I would get up in the morning thinking I would be ok, but some days I didn’t even get out of bed. I was in a relationship for 3 years with a (P) (BPD), it was the worst years of my life. I still have problem’s excepting what happened. But I want you and Blondie to know this—listen closley–I am still in alot of pain–emotionally and physically. But I am able to function -and the (emotional pain) although it is still there, is less intense. After week’s of anxiety, depression, and losing so much weight , I went to a Doctor and asked for anti depressants. I don’t know if they have helped, maybe by coming here to LF and educating myself (about what is going on) with me. And trying hard every f-ing day to accept what I have learned accept what has happened in the past months and years, this place and the knowledge I have now are my salvation. But I do think the zoloft helped with the anxiety. So I recommend medication for at least six months. But more than anything I want too stress too you – as you learn – as you slowly and painfully come out of the fog – and maybe with medication – you will start coming back to a more rational self. I will admit it – I don’t want to preach, I just want you too stop hurting. If my X knocked on the door right now I would probably take him back – I have been really down the past several day’s – but it is nothing – NOTHING – like it was…….
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 1:12am
henry says:
the emotional pain and confusion is NOTHING like it was… my back still hurt’s…:)
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 1:42am
newworld view says:
no henry the 8th…..you would not take him back…..and you will avoid going to any place you shouldnt where there are hundreds more like him…..good lord its only been 4 months….im just over a year…we have to fight for our own life, not give in to the battle….keep the strength
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 9:05am
newworld view says:
dear ms toodles and anyone else out there…..i have a new mission….i think i will try and reparent myself………unless of course anyone out there would like to volunteer for the job…lol….im sure ill have myself in timeout for most of the time……but even though i am skeptical about my success, has anyone done this successfully or have any good resources they could recommend………im very serious…..pls terri
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 9:24am
OxDrover says:
DEar NWV, I’m doing that (essentially that) right now. I suggest that you read the old stand by Eric Berne’s “Games people play” it will give you some ideas on how to find the “Parent tapes” that are implanted in our heads and the “games” we were taught to play and the roles we were taught to play, and the emotions we were taught to feel if we didn’t “Play along” with the games.
I have finally gotten a good, clear over view of the “games” we substituted for “life”—for thinking–for decision making—for acting on logic—it kept the “status quo” and that was the IMPORTANT THING was to “keep the peace and staus quo, no matter what the price of doing so was”
I’ve become more aware of these “tapes” that tell me to feel guilty if I stand up for myself, to “not rock the boat” and to “let’s pretend that none of this happened.”
My mother even actually VERBALIZED that out loud. I couldn’t believe HOW RIDICULOUS IT SOUNDED when it was spoken ALOUD. I looked at her and I said, “Well as long as we are PRETENDING, why don’t we pretend that Daddy and M (my H) aren’t dead, and we’ll set them a place at dinner tonight and have a nice time with them.”
My mom looked at me like I was insane! But I knew that it was ME THAT WAS SANE and that it made as much sense to “pretend” that the men were alive as to pretend that “none of this had happened”—-LOL
I’m having to learn from scratch, from the get go, to set boundaries for people within the “trust zone” or “close people” I’ve not had trouble setting boundaries for those outside the family and close friends. Though mom disapproved of this she didn’t rigorously punish me for doing it, but the punishment was reserved for setting boundaries for those in the family or with “friends.”
So I already know how to set boundaries for others “outside” and am learning to set boundaries for those closer.
Another mantra besides “pretending” was “WHAT WOULD THE NEIGHBORS THINK” I have come to the conclusion on that that I do not CARE what the “neighbors think” I am NOT going to run my life by worrying incessently what someone else might “think”—I do not need the validation of the “neighbors.”
I still am invested heavily in what my two sons think about my actions, but at the same time, I am gaining automomy with them as well, and recently I made a decision to set a boundary that I really did think would send one of my sons into a tail spit as the people were friends of his as well, but I made the decision to explain it to him, but to DO IT WITHOUT GUILT regardless of what his thoughts or feelings on the situation were. It turned out that he did agree with me, and in fact, is starting to set boundaries with these people himself, independently of my boundaries.
So, in effect, my setting boundaries and being willing to hold them is also positively impacting my sons and my relationship with them as well.
I think the “reparenting” or whatever you want to call it, is well worth the trouble and effort to do. It is releasing me from the “guilt tapes” deeply implanted inside my head to “control” by emotions. I am taking control of them myself. A very liberating feeling. Good luck.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 9:43am
Tood says:
OxDrover,
And an “excellent post” to you, my new friend! I totally relate to the “what will the neighbors think” mentality. That was (and still is) my mother’s total motivation in life: impressing strangers with a false presentation of self and reality.
And to everyone else in this struggle: another big turning point for me was reading an online essay called “Characteristics of a Narcissistic Mother.” I’m afraid it’s been through so many incarnations, I’m not sure of the original author, but it is a doozy. Just Google the title.
I recognized my own mother, and was able to use the lessons learned from that essay to break free of many of those internal “tapes” of which you speak, OxDrover. I was very motivated by a horrifying sentence in another essay on the same topic, to-wit: “Narcissists breed narcissists.”
I recognized some of the same behaviors in myself and I set out to mend as much as I could. I resolved to make myself more empathetic. I had considered myself almost an open wound of feeling before, but I find that now I can detach (de-enmesh myself) from others and really think about how they are or might be feeling. And act accordingly.
And, believe it or not, I also took a valuable lesson from my ex’s mother, who passed on a couple of years ago. I would do her shopping for her and she’d tell me: “Get only the best. The best brands.” After she passed, I was thinking of her one day and decided that I, too, deserved “only the best.” Before (in the old life), I was only too happy to take the smallest piece of cake, the worst seat, the chair with the broken leg. Now, I realize it’s ok if I have a big, sloppy piece of cake now and then.
During some of the recovery process, I would wake up each day and ask myself “What will make me happy today?”. Then I’d do it, whether it be a few hours of peace and quiet, a trip to the bargain store or a really good meal. I’d do things for myself without guilt. That was HUGE.
Continued good luck to us all.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 11:35am
newworld view says:
oxy tks…i shall try and find that…i think its a good sign that i want to work more on myself and push him hopefully entirely out of my head….as a side, locally there is a big hubub in hollywood fl over a 10,000 plus swingers convention here…im sure he is probably frantically doing you know what over the anticipation of this being so close….its amazing not too long ago the city chased these people away, but the economy is so bad that they are now catering to them…..and the new tv series swingtown…it just drives me nuts that this is moving so much into mainstream america….he tried to convince me that i just wasnt with the times…but you know what, no one will convince me….even if the point of an open marriage is that you tell each other and share other couples….in such a sexually charged environment, one is always looking at others as potential sexual partners….dont know how healthy that is for a relationship, unless both parties are bisexual…….oh well, what do i know
also, i laughed so hard when you relayed the story to your mom about setting the table for the 2 deceased men,,,cause we are pretending!!!!!!
that just cracks me up..im still laughing…like little children still stuck playing make believe…
well off to reparent or whatever it is called….i hope i dont have to take my phone or computer privileges away lol
and toodles i like the idea of waking up and saying what will make me happy today……
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 12:07pm
Beverly says:
Oxy I truly believe that this experience, this battle of the soul, was brought to me, for me to understand, that I have a NUMBER ONE DUTY to protect myself, and love myself and in putting my hand in the fire, I now remember to stay away from that and will call that into being, when and if affairs of the heart make me soggy in the head. I hope that Henry recalls that too.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 12:09pm
newworld view says:
oh and about the what would the neighbors think….yeah i am still hiding out from the fear that they saw police cars here several times to get him away and then to supervise him getting stuff times two……i guess that behavior is so foreign to me, i was ashamed…..i need to work on that….but im getting better
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 12:11pm
Beverly says:
Dear NWV, You would be suprised what goes on behind doors. People are more understanding than you think. I have never been involved with the Police until I lived here, quite frankly I dont give a toss what the neighbours think. (A bit Clark Gable that) Brave it, NWV, hold your head up and think, it wasnt your fault, you dont have to explain to your neighbours either. If you front it with a bravery, everyone will move on and forget – only you are fretting.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 12:23pm
newworld view says:
tks bev ……and my smart side knows that…people are so busy, for all i know they havent even given it half a thought
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 12:37pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Toods, NWV and Bev,
I’m glad that you can all 3 relate to the “reparenting” and the stopping the mantras of “what will the neighbors think” and “let’s just pretend none of this ever happened”—-I want to live in the NOW and in REALITY not in pretence or in being scared of what others will “think of” me. When I think of how shallow, how fearful, and just plain unrealistic my mother’s life has been it is a very sad commentary that I bought into this as much as I did, but whatever you see or experience as a child in your home is what you preceive of as “normal” and the “way it is and should be.”
I guess it finally really HIT ME between the eyes when mom actually said OUTLOUD “Let’s just pretend….” She had always acted that way but it was an UNSPOKEN thing, she never actually said it out LOUD. I guess it took her saying it ALOUD for me to really realize how invested she was in that pretense.
My “Uncle Monster” (her brother) was the one we always pretended was not a monster….and my P-son, we “pretended” he wasn’t a monster of the first order…and then the punishment she inflicted on me, we had to pretend she didn’t do that either—and since, in her mind, I deserved this “thrashing” she would be nice enough to just “pretend” she wasn’t forced into “whipping” me. How gracious she was to pretend I hadn’t grossly sinned by objecting to the abuse.
I was laughing with Kat on another thread about my “one liner” sense of humor and I think the “one liner” response to mom about “let’s just set the table for daddy and late husband” is the outflowing of that sense of the ABSURD that I have in creating my “one liners”!!!! It sure did fit! Though she didn’t like that “joke” at all. She did “catch it” though, at least the look on her face said she did, but didn’t approve. LOL
Beverly, I totally agree with you that the “life lessons” that we are given, though they are painful to go through, are definitely “for our learning and good” I just realize though that I have had these lessons before and “flunked”—so I had to take “remedial” classes in dealing with more Ps. I am hoping that I get an A+ this time and don’t need to repeat the class.
A book that has been very very helpful to me in reparenting is Eric Berne’s “Games People Play” which has a great deal of easy to understand information on “the parental” tapes and how they trigger our emotions of guilt and shame when we violate one of the “precepts” that our “internal parents” have put in our head about what we should and should not do/feel.
Becoming aware of these tapes is helping me to push PAUSE on these tapes. I am not sure we can ever totally erase them, but we can learn to MUTE them actively.
It’s all a process of healing, each of us has different “tapes” but by learning and sharing we can help and encourage each other to grow. I do think that these tapes have made us vulnerable to the Ps who take advantage of this “weakness” in us to want to be “nice”—-even to those who are not “nice” in return.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 1:04pm
Beverly says:
Dont worry NWV, Just front up your bravery and you will be ok. Even if it feels fake, just hold your head up.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 1:04pm
newworld view says:
tks
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 1:17pm
Beverly says:
If you wobble NWV, just come back to us and let go of your fears for our support. Love and Light.
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 1:44pm
swallow says:
Tood,
Thanks for mentioning the google article Characteristics of a Narcissistic Mother. It’s my mother absolutely!!
I can see now, that in my family circle I was the ‘golden child’ and my sister was the ’scapegoat’. That is until my sister fled from home and then I became both! All this was compounded by the fact that my father died when I was 4 ( my sister 9) and so it was pure undiluted torture. Other family members ( aunts, uncles etc) were instantly alienated for taking our side and so we were trapped in the wolfs lair.
I am also appalled to find out recently that our GP knew my mother had this disorder and yet he never did anything to protect or inform us (even as adults) despite having to deal with my mothers hysterics and manipulations for 30 years.
After my experience with a P two years ago, a friend who knew about my childhood said to me ” I would have thought that you would be the more intolerant of bad behaviour, having suffered it as a child”. My answer to her was ” quite the opposite, I have been programmed from young to endure and accept it. Bizare, manipulative, insane behaviour is normal for me”. I am sure it led the way to me being targeted by a P. He picked up on all of that without me even being aware of it.
It always does me good to have my experienced validated and to KNOW that it wasn’t me after all. I just wish I could have been edcucated about this disorder a long time ago, it may have saved me from so much pain in my life.
Swallow
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Saturday, 2 August 2008 @ 9:47pm
Beverly says:
Dear Swallow. After my run in with the N, I realised that the reason I felt omfortable with him, was that my father was also a narcissist and he and my father even shared a love of opera. Infact the opera thing was the first red flag on the vry first meeting, but i kept thinking, well it doesnt mean anything because he is not my father – but then at the end I realised they both shared the same personality disorder.
When I read the article about narcissistic mothers, I realised that my mother was one too. She had schizophrenia and I too was the black sheep, my brother was the golden child and went onto make a very good life for himself. I totally understand you when you said that ‘bizarre, manipulative, insane behaviour is normal for me’ – I had years and years of that. I had no other living family in the area, because my mother was foreign, so I was stuck with it. This wide tolerance bandwidth that I have, and the fact that I have so few family, caused me to be abused on more than one occasion
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Sunday, 3 August 2008 @ 3:19am
swallow says:
Hi Beverley,
If you had two disordered parents, you must have had a terribly traumatic childhood. There must be so many of us that are here because of the damage done to us as children. You would think that the medical professionals who see the results of these disordered upbringings would make greater efforts in prevention of abuse and educating the general public especially as many of them subscribe to the theory that a psychopathic personality is formed in early childhood because of abuse!!!
I think we all deserve medals for coming out of a background like that and still managing to be kind, caring individuals.
Thank God we can all share our stories and comfort each other.
Swallow
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Sunday, 3 August 2008 @ 6:46am
OxDrover says:
Dear Swallow,
Fortunately, not all abused children turn out to be abusers as well. I am well acquainted with a family in which there are 5 children, one mentally retarded, so we won’t count her in the mix. Two of the children from this TERRIBLY abusive family, turned out wonderful, and two turned out to be just like the mother–psychopathic.
There is some genetic interaction along with the environmental aspect. A saying that I think sums it up is “the same sun that hardens the clay, melts the wax” so the same terrible abusive upbrining has different effects on the different children because some get the genetic potential more than others to accept the abuse and become abusers themselves. Others don’t have that genetic propensity to become abusers.
It would be totally unrealistic for every family to be supervised by professionals, which might be ideal, but unfortunately some families that on the “outside” appear to be “normal” are anything but normal and good.
Just the horrible physical abuse of children is in itself so wide spread that professionals can’t keep up with it. Plus, taking children away from parents, even abusive parents can also be traumatic. I think Beverly is a prime example of that, by being placed in “care” at age 6 to age 11, was a trauma for her in and of itself.
To me, I am more suprised at the amount of “normal” people who come out of childhood wihtout a great deal of trauma than I am about the high number of people who have suffered emotional trauma in their upbringing.
I have a little plaque that I bought a couple of years ago that I thought actually summed up my family life. It says “Keep in mind, everyone thinks we are a nice normal family.”
WOW, did that plaque speak to me. It is sooooo true. The people in the community here where my family has lived since 1833 (eighteen thirty three) do think we are a “nice normal family”—-and my family is ANYTHING but “nice” or “normal”—Yea, they knew that my ggrandfather was the town drunk and would pass out behind the bar with his dick hanging out and the family would be called to come get him before he froze to death there, but most of those who knew that back then in the 1930s and 1940s now are dead, except my mom and a few of her elderly friends, but no one really takes it seriously or even did then. It just was.
Even though my son was arrested at age 17 and has been in prison now continually for 18 years for murder, no one in the community (until recently) knew this, they just knew that my son wasn’t around here. If someone asked where he was or what He was doing, we would answer “oh, he lives in Texas and works for the state of texas” Yea, that was “true” but he worked for the state of Texas as CONVICT labor.
Recently I met the daughter of a neighbor (she is also a neighbor but I had never met her, just knew her father and brother) and she asked me about my kids, how many, etc. and I TOLD HER the complete truth. No long drawn out details or anything, just I have one adopted son D who lives with me and works for me, and son C who just got divorced and moved to X state, and Son P who is a convict in prison in Texas.
Wow, how freeing was that!!! She asked me his name and I told her and she said, “I will pray for him.”
I am not going to “live iin shame” or “hide” the truth any more. It’s funny too. One of our next door neighbors, a good family, had a son who was a habitual petty criminal and stayed in trouble until he was about 40 and then came home to live with his elderly parents. My mom used to “look down her nose” at these people, while her own grandson was in prison for murder. LOL How ludicrous is that!!!
Personally, the shame (if any) belongs to my son for his actions, not to me for his actions. If there is any “shame” at all for me, it is remorse for putting up with it for so long, and for wanting to “believe” in him, or for playing my mom’s game of “lets pretend we’re a nice normal family so the neighbors won’t catch on to what we really are.”
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Sunday, 3 August 2008 @ 12:31pm
Beverly says:
Dear Swallow, I only found out about my parents through the trauma of being with the N, although there were so many things about him that were wrong for me, I found his company familiar – it wasnt until I started comparing the list of the N to my father, that I discovered the truth and that secret was closed to me all my life. Then when I realised my father was an N, it explained so much of his detatched arrogant behaviour. I used to tell people that when I saw him, he was VERY self centred, he would make me sit there whilst he lectured me about how he put in the heating and landscaped the garden. Everything had to be the way he wanted it, and although he never raised his voice or smacked me, his presence used to send fear running through me. He just disappeared when I was 6 and made a new life as though we never existed (sound familiar) I couldnt understand this – now I understand it all. I tried to have contact with him in my teens and I went on a long bus journey to see him. He never acknowledged our birthdays or Christmas and I never got a card from him ever. He was a narcissist through and through – no doubt. Kind regards dear Swallow.
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Sunday, 3 August 2008 @ 12:32pm
swallow says:
Hi OxDrover,
Yes it is miraculous how many of us turn out to be ‘normal’. My comments about professionals is something that has been lamented on here many times. I do not blame them for what happened to me but I do feel it would have been very helpful if someone had taken the time to give my sister and I a little more explanation of my mothers condition or even suggest that we read up on personality disorders. It was always clouded in mystery and it is only recently – like Beverly -that I found out the truth.
Your other point about lookng ‘normal’ to the outside world is so true. In my case, just from the sheer embarassment of our mothers behaviour, it was my sister and I who tried to pretend we were from a normal family. My mother thought she appeared normal but she was so outrageous at times, I’m sure there were some who thought she was nuts – though God help them if they even suggested she was behaving badly. Being the more extrovert of the two sisters, I did confide in my friends about my home life but without any ‘diagnosis’ it was the same problem that many on here have found – they just did not understand, it was invisible to the outside world. My mother did try to strangle me once but luckily she stopped herself in time. I did not even recall the incident until years later, probably because it was so traumatic and I think that even if I had complained to someone at the time, how could I have proved it? It happened at home with no witnesses and who would believe a mother could do that?
I know that you yourself have suffered so much and I am grateful for your insight and wisdom and yes your are right – YOU have nothing to be ashamed of.
Swallow
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Sunday, 3 August 2008 @ 7:35pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Swallow and co. : I may be normal now, but it took a hell of a lot of hard work and self-education. I doubt if any of us are just going to turn out ok.. but I hear ya nonetheless
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Sunday, 3 August 2008 @ 10:33pm
swallow says:
Kat,
Yep we’ve all been through the grinder – some of you are still going through it but if you read many of the posts here you will see that not only is it possible to come out of that long dark tunnel but be stronger and wiser on the other side. Having my story validated helped me find my path to recovery.
I am not worried about whether I am or appear to be ‘normal’. I’m sure some of my aquaintances think I’m a bit aloof and eccentric. My true friends know the real me ( warts and all) and what really matters is that I can live with myself. I still have empathy for others, my sense of humour and the ability to love no matter what others have done to me.
Swallow
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 12:19am
Beverly says:
I agree swallow. My mother did have a diagnosis and medication and I often went with her to her appts. with an emminent psychiatrist, who sat for an hour writing notes! She was left as a single parent (with no support) to bring up children on her own with no intervention and no-one checked in on us, the children. Unbelievable. The experience affected my life on so many levels. Never took friends home, because of the weird behaviour and turbulence and when I hit my late teens I was homeless a number of times, due to her rants. I cant change what happened.
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 1:56am
blondie says:
i heard a saying before. everything you do, shows people who you really are. this is going to be my new attitude towards life and towards my x. it doest take the pain away, and it doest make it easier. but all the things he did to me. like texting and communicating with a chick i work with. who knows if there are still chatting or not, but all it does is show who he really is as a person, and makes me feel like thank god i left that loser, bc thats what they are LOSERS.
do you ever feel like even though you dont want to go back to your ex your just not ready to meet men, or go on dates? im just not ready yet, and thats ok.
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 8:19am
swallow says:
Blondie,
I think that after a P experience you should take your time in dating again. If you are vulnerable in any way, you could fall prey to another one! Use your time to learn all you can and make sure you have firm boundries in place before you even think of another relationship.
On a positive note, the statistics say that between 1 – 3% of the population are P’s, so that means the majority of men out there are OK.
I am in different position to you as I am married. Luckily for me, my husband is a very kind, understanding man with a medical background and we have both come to terms with the fact that I was targeted for money Having said that, it took a long time for our relationship to repair itself and there are still times when the P subject raises it’s ugly head.
After two & half years NC, it is easier to accept that my entrapment and affair was not personal. The P I knew would con anyone ( there are many others) and coming to that realisation really does help the healing process. The sad thing is we have to go through such an emotional firestorm to get to that point.
Swallow
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 11:10am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Help guys, I deleted my cheater bf from my IM but I must not have blocked it. After weeks of no contact he sent me an offline message to tell me he found someone “prettier, sexier and nicer who makes him happy like nobody else” it didn’t hurt me really, because now I know this means nothing coming from him, but it shook me up. Without thinking I fired one back saying yeah right, she just has more money, and the only reason she makes you happy is she believes your lies for now. I also asked him to give me back the money he owes me.
Now I feel really bad and like I can’t concentrate. I don’t feel hurt but shaky, and my head is spinning around. I don’t know why he would bother sending me a mean note like that. My poor daughter is trying to chat with me and I can’t hear a word she is saying.
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 11:32am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
QUOTE: I don’t know why he would bother sending me a mean note like that.
REALLY, Kat? Ask your self WHY? You can answer that question because you DO know why he sent you that nasty message.
I know the shaky feeling, and I also know the suprise that comes with unexpected contact from them. My X-BF showed up at a local auction I freqent on Saturdays and he lives 400 miles away, just waltzed in and there he was, big as life. It threw me for a loop, and then he sat in seats right in front of me and my girlfriend. I managed to ignore him and didn’t speak when he spoke, but it did throw me for a loop, and I was soooo angry at him for showing up there. I even felt physically threatened since he had burned the home of a previous GF who had “disrespected” him.
Next time he contacts you (and he probably will for the SAME reason as this time) try not to respond, cause that RESPONSE is what he is after—it is like a blood meal to a vampire. (((hugs))))
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 12:27pm
Beverly says:
I think Kat, its called ‘pressing your buttons’. After they have discarded and devalued they just love to get the boot in a bit more dont they, because they know that words hurt and that you will probably ruminate on it. It gives them one upmanship and smug satisfaction to know that they have reduced you to the bottom of the pile. Dont let yourself be cancelled out by such nastiness. Pride always goes before a fall – he will get his come uppance. You know what he is like by his track record – that should give you some smug satisfaction as to his likely performance in the future.
My exN did much the same, after it was over, he sent a message through a friend to say he had already got a new girlfriend a much younger female (poor thing) than me, because he knew that would needle me. He’s good at getting them, but no good at keeping them.
If you feel yourself stewing Kat, post here.
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 2:58pm
henry says:
Kat The shock will wear off in a day or two. This is why I keep saying I am going to throw my computer in the pond. I have changed phone numbers so he can’t call. But this internet and computer, even tho (HE) has not contacted me, it’s like a direct line to him. And now after four months of no contact, (I) know where he is and how to contact him. I don’t like that. It was better when I had no knowledge of him at all. His BF messaged me a week ago, bragging and playing games. It really upset me – but I know what the new BF doesn’t know – hang in there Kat – it’s just a sick child playing games with you….he is pushing your button’s – chances are he is telling more lie’s
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 3:14pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Thank you guys so much. I feel like my heart is slowing down for the first time all day. Wow, my hands are even steadier.
I don’t know if I personally will ever outgrow this site. Because while sometimes I feel really strong, sometimes this place is my link to sanity.
I will be sooooo happy if he moves out of state with this new girl. Right now I never visit my best friend because she lives in the same town as him, and I detest going over to my new college because he works near there. I have to move into that town where the college is soon, and I’ve been dreading it so much, even though I know it’s an important move for me.
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 6:05pm
OxDrover says:
Kat, Sweetie, you are doing well, it just is a back slide once in a while, like Bev said “you let him push your buttons” and that is the “knee jerk” response we all have when they do someting that they know will “zing” us. And OH, DO THEY LOVE TO ZING US.!!!!
Next time you feel yourself get your “buttons pushed” by him–scream STOP!! (not to him, to yourself) and ask yourself the question (statement) you asked in your other post “WHY would he do this?” Then you can answer that question yourself because you KNOW the answer! Then, do the thing that you know will ZING him back–NO RESPONSE. Kat, I am not kidding about HOW VERY MUCH it frustrates and enrages them when we DON’T react.
And boy o boy were MY BUTTONS EASY TO PUSH–and my P son knew just how to do it. I think since he hit the teeanged years pushing my buttons has been his biggest joy and now, it is driving him dip chit to not get any reaction from any family member. He write letters to others telling them how I have “poisoned” the family against him, and on and on, and you know, I know that is the BIGGEST frustration of his life that he can’t do a darned thing about it. NO tactic works. Not smugness, not rage, not pity party, not begging, not cursing, NOTHING WORKS and he HATES THAT.
Don’t worry, your little creep will give you another chance to PUSH HIS BUTTONS BY NOT RESPONDING. Just be prepared for it next time. They are so stupidly predictable once you “get their number” and figure out what they are. Now you are the one IN CONTROL OF THE BUTTONS!!! (((HUGS))))
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 6:19pm
henry says:
yes Kat- I want to deal with the truth here, I need to get my shit together so I don’t take the little creep back – I am feeling strong today – THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE – BUT FIRST IT WILL PISS YOU OFF let’s deal with the truth we need these freak’s out of our life – we know that- we are just hangin on to that illusion but that dont mean our life is over – we can do this – someday we will look back at this and feel so good that we pulled those ticks out and squashed them flat -
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 6:35pm
blondie says:
thanks everyone
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 7:37pm
swallow says:
Kat,
I agree with all the above posts.
DON’T RESPOND next time. If he can provoke a reaction you are playing his game BUT if he cannot get a reaction from you, there is no game for him to play. Indifference is the greatest punishment you can inflict.
When you get the shakes go and beat the hell out of an old pillow an release all that pent up emotion.
Swallow
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 7:50pm
OxDrover says:
Henry, dear, I am sooooo glad you are having a good day today! YEA!!!! FOR HENRY!!!!
Humidity was down here in the OVEN, so wasn’t so terrible as yesterday but still over 100! So I did get out and work a bit outside (in the shade) and have consumed LOTS OF LEMONAIDE to keep hydrated. Grass is even “crispy” when you walk on it. Got to water some shrubs tomorrow for sure!
My son C called this morning and talked for nearly an hour! And I guess that was one of the most wonderful things, because the entire 7-8 years he was married to the P she kept him either isolated from us or so depressed he just wasn’t “himself” and it is so gratifying that he is back to “his old self” again, laughing and happy and just making wise cracks—getting his debts paid off to my mom, and feeling good about that, saving money and just getting his life back together again.
I was thinking about Inthebreach and how her P has isolated her daughters from her, and I thought about how my DIL isolated my son from us, especially me. Some how the Ps seem to particularly hate me—and see me as a threat to them. I am not sure why I am such a treat, and the DIL apparently saw me as a threat from the beginning.
The P-son, however, just seemed to despise me for trying to “control” him when he was a teenager—yea, that terrible mom I was—trying to keep his silly ass out of jail, trying to stop him from stealing for goodness sakes, what an ABUSIVE MOM I was! LOL Heck, I’m still abusing him! Poisoning the family against him so they won’t write or send him money. Ohhhhh welllll!
Kat, NO CONTACT, taking away their power to influence us and play their games is SO frustrating to them. I wish you could have read the gyrations my son wrote in letters both to the family and to others to get them to influence us to contact him. It was like watching a “wiggle worm writhe in hot ashes” and you could HEAR the desperation in his letters. He was so frustrated.
They can’t believe that they are NOT the center of our lives. They are so arrogant, and even after they leave they want to “turn the screws” on us, to “get revenge” for us not being their slaves any more. To “punish” us for not thinking they are the most wonderful people in the world.
They have have someone “new” but having someone “hot” isn’t any good unless you can rub your X’s nose in it. It isn’t the having, it is the displaying it, the one-up-manship, the “na na na na nah, I’m better’un you!” (rasberry)
They are like a ten year old with a new toy, it isn’t having the toy that is the fun, it is having all the other kids (or your x) wish they had it too. It is showing the toy off but not letting anyone else play with it. They never seem to get out of this juvinile stage of wanting to “show off” for the other kids. It’s all about appearance not substance.
Henry, I think Mike’s new Bf is acting the same way. Trying to get you to “miss” what a great guy you let go! YEA, right! Great guy! Well, his new BF will find out what a great guy he is—probably in very short order! A tick is a very good analogy Henry, they suck your blood and burrow under your skin like the parasites that they are.
You guys give yourselves big hugs and scream all at once—WE ARE P-FREE!!!! WE ARE VICTORIOUS! WE ARE STRONG! WE ARE POWERFUL! WE WILL HAVE THE ULTIMATE REVENGE, LIVING WELL!
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Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 10:00pm
stillsortingitout says:
Hi, everyone!
I agree, this particular essay is just so dead-on, it touches on every aspect of the bewilderment and pain, while bringing a feeling of empowerment as well.
I’ve spent the last few weeks frantically scanning for any new information to ease my pain. I (VERY foolishly) agreed to meet my ex- I hadn’t heard from or spoken to him in almost a year. Then, out of the blue I find out he’s been enquiring around about me, then I receive a call. He’s all contrite, apologitic, even tearfull. I know for a lot of people here that sounds like the same old con, but with him, it was completely atypical. A complete 180 degree change. He’s never admitted guilt or fault for anyprevious relationship failing in the entire 6 years I was with him. He was always the perpetual victim, just like I’ve read from so many posts here. This time, he said he’d been taking intensive self-help courses, and realized how horrible he’d been to everyone in his life. He was making a call to everyone he had wronged to apologize and make ammends. He wondered if I’d be willing to accept his apology. Here’s where I went down the slippery slope. It just seemed too incredible to NOT be sincere. I eventually, after many days of calls, agreed to meet him. We had dinner, and he apologized for everything. He suddenly seemed to be able to remember every cruel incident ( He never had any idea what I was complaining about before), even some I didn’t even remember! Then he started telling me how alone he was, how nothing had been the same since I left. How no one else was as compatable, loving, on and on. He dangled in front of me every possible “carrot” that he had withheld while we were together. Now he was capable of love, due to this amazing transformation from these classes. He’d quit smoking. He understood how to treat others. He only hoped I could be his friend, then maybe, slowly work toward being a couple again. Just like Kat was saying, every ounce of my being that wanted to be loved, wanted a relationship again, ached to believe him. He told me I was beautiful ( a very painful subject for me, as he’d told me while we were together that “I wasn’t pretty enough” for him, since “he’d been with so many beautiful women”. But, he said, I was “nice, so that made up for it”. Many people have always told me I was attractive, but that was a very rough thing for me, as I grew up with a narcissistic mother who competed with me about looks for as long as I can remember. He knew this, and used it to trap me). Anyway, the looks thing is shallow, I know, but because of my past a very tender subject. He went in for the kill with that one, telling me he was just being selfish when he couldn’t tell me how beautiful I was when we were together. He was a “New Person” now, and able to “appreciate my beauty”. Then, for the jugular: he said now he’d “even be willing to get married” !!! – the MAJOR hold he had over me. Never, ever, willing to make that commitment. He must have known that would break down all my defenses. I eventually, a few days later, told him I did really love him and miss him, and if he was sincere about all these changes, I’d be willing to try again. It lasted for all of about a week. We had a couple dinners, he played this charade well for a while. Then, very suddenly, he turned cold again. When I tried to get him to explain his change of demeanor, asked him what happened, why? he’d been so different before, his cold, harsh answer was “I’m sure I was”. Hot one day, icy cold the next. No signs I could see of finding something he didn’t like about me, nothing different. Only the way he treated me.
Anyway, I know I’m ranting, I’m sorry. I just can’t believe it. I mean, my head can, he’s pathalogical, a narcissist, willing to play any game. But my heart can’t conceive of that kind of evil or cruelty. Like someone else so eloquently put it here, “my heart feels hollow and full of ashes”. I know I should have known better. I do get that. But I cannot understand how, why this behavior benefitted him. He really learned some good new games, he’d never done anything this elaborate or cruel in all the time I’d been with him. It just would’ve been too much work for him, for so little payoff.
It really is like he ripped off an enormous, chest-sized scar, then dug daggers into me, twisting and eviscerating me. The pain is horrendous. Worse than anything he’d done before. My pathetic brain keeps working over and over, trying to find answers that make any sense. I’m not sleeping, crying myself to sleep every night this past week. It wasn’t nearly this bad when we first broke up. The intentional betrayal and cruelty overwhelms me. My friends, even my therapist, who I think is wonderful, all seem to see it the same way, I just need to learn to stay away from narcissists. Get over it.
This site is such a comfort to me, reading that other people have gone through the same things, and understand. Thank you all so much.
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 1:01pm
ellejay says:
Hi Still sorting,
How horrendous, I can’t tell you how I feel for you. Unfortunately, now with my own knowledge, it no longer surprises me what these personalities are capable of.
When I repeatedly asked, why? Why? Why? I was once told by a very sage old man – because they can. Is it really that simple? I think it is. I believe these types harbour grudges. I have learned that about mine. He never acknowledged or accepted ownership for the reasons I left. He patently found it incredible that I would leave. Somewhere in his vengeful psyche, he made sure one day I would get pay back.
They pay you back (if you let them) by exactly what you describe. Lure you back into their world by any means possible, just so they can give themselves the satisfaction of hurting you because they truly believe (I think) you owe them for all the wonderful things they did (they never acknowledge all the horrible terrible things) for you, and you left.
I once had a text from my ex who said “Is your leaving me the advice your friends gave you? It doesn’t seem like something you would do – if it is, they will pay, no one messes with my life, I mess with theirs”.
This applies to ANYONE. He couldn’t accept that I had the courage to leave him on my own. He wouldn’t accept I left him because of the lies, deceit, cheating, and emotional cruelty. He had to blame someone.
You poor thing. It is hard to realise that no one can truly understand this terrible torture they inflict on you emotionally unless they have been there and experienced it. You have to find a therapist who understands the horror of being involved with these types of people. I have found one. It has helped no end.
There are sister sites to this one that can help you a great deal with coming to terms that someone you loved can be so cruel and heartless. Because they can.
With care,
LJ
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 1:27pm
stillsortingitout says:
Thank you ellejay,
Your understanding and kindness just brought tears to my eyes!! Yes, you’re right. Because they can. It’s such a simple answer, but so hard for a normal person to accept.
I’m posting and reading from this site on the sly at work, because I think if I weren’t I be running around screaming by now. It somehow grounds me and helps me focus enough to get my work done.
I would love to know of any sister sites. Everything at this point helps. My poor friends, I hate to think of their patience with me running thin. I hate to burden them with this when to them it seems so simple, but to me so overwhelming! I’m so appreciative of all of you!
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 1:36pm
OxDrover says:
The dangling the “carrot” and then when you reach for it, snatching it away, is THE most cruel “torture” of all—-building up HOPE that you have finally grasp the “carrot” and that “all is within your reach” then BAMMMM!!! It is gone!
That any person would enjoy doing this is beyond belief of any “normal” person,a nd so we FALL for this dangle and move thing, because we just ca’t “believe” anyone would be so cruel.
It is like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown. And we are always the not quite trusting, yet trusting and guilible, Charlie Brown. They SUCK US IN, just like Lucy sucks poor Charlie Brown into her game.
We just have to do one better than Charlie Brown and realize that they WILL ALWAYS BE THE LIE. The truth is not in them, and they ENJOY THE LIE, the con, the pulling the football out from under us and seeing us on the ground–foiled again. Bleeding and hurting.
Dear Still, I am so sorry that he was able to suck you back in, but at the same time, as painful as it was/is, I hope it gives you some comfort to know that you’re “in good company” as we have all been sucked into the vortex of the P’s “false face”–(((Hugs)))) and best wishes for your recovery!!!
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 2:51pm
Beverly says:
Dear Ellejay, My exN lured me back time and time again, but I never once asked him back, he would reappear with some silly text and I thought he must have missed me, so I accepted him back. Then the very last time he came back, I knew it was going to be the last time, so I watched him like a hawk, and I played things very calm, to watch him rock the boat, and lo and behold after 6 weeks of things going really well, he started putting hints into the conversation to infer that he was flirting at work – he even told me that he was reprimanded for asking a female worker to get her t…ts out.
After I kicked him out, I realised that he had got me back, to get me back. Because a few months before that I had pushed him over, because I heard he had been seen with a girl – and he must have stewed on his narcissistic rage all that time in secret and planned his revenge. He once sent me a text, saying ‘I want to whip your ass you b…ch – an eye for an eye’. When I showed my friend the text she was gobsmacked at the harshness of it.
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 4:05pm
stillsortingitout says:
Little-
I’ve been in the same emotional shape you’re describing, on more than one occasion, I’m embarrassed to admit. Please continue to try taking things one day at a time, one hour at a time, whatever it takes. I work in the medical field, and just as a suggestion, anti-depressants are wonderful and helpful, but can take up to 6 weeks for the theraputic effect to kick in. I would absolutely start taking one (I currently take Lexapro and recommend it highly), but maybe,until it becomes theraputic in your system, you might consider temporarily taking something for anxiety, ativan or elavil, for example. This can help with the panicky feelings that can overwhelm, and send us spiraling to a place we don’t want to go. I’m planning on taking my own advice, as I was in that bad place just this past weekend myself! Even on Lexapro! This isn’t to push medication on anyone, just a suggestion for temporay help. Wishing you all the best!
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 5:23pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Stillsorting..I can so relate as I broke up with a nice (millionaire.. doh) bf who was younger than me, handsome and sweet for my old stupid cheater ex.. just because he begged me and begged me and was so damn sincere. And just like you said, suddenly he had insight into all the problems we had before.. sigh.. I’m so stupid.
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Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 11:46pm
blondie says:
so i just found out that my x is for sure dating some new girl. im pretty sure its the same girl he was alreading dating when we were together. im not sure how i feel! im feeling millions of emotions. im not shocked, sorta depressed. i dont know why it hurts so much that they have someone new even know we know that they are not good people. in time the new girl will c the real him. she will notice that he trys to contact me and email me. she will notice all the lies again. why do you always feel like the worst person in the world, even though your life is way better without them. and how everyone knows your life is better without them. like i just feel like the odd man out. like left behind. idknow today is a sad day for me
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 8:07am
newworld view says:
blondie i feel so bad for you…but the only one who can make you stop feeling this pain is you….he is going to go from woman to woman for the rest of his life….you need to stop tracking him…that is the only way your wounds can heal….put all that energy into taking yourself for a walk or an icecream…just all about you
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 10:11am
OxDrover says:
Dear Blondie,
The first thing we need to do is PHYSICAL No Contact. That means that we don’t take his calls, e mails, text messages or anything else.
The second thing is that we have EMOTIONAL No Contact, and that means that we get him out of our head and quit “renting him space” and that means that you do not look at his “my space page” or ask anyone about him, or even ALLOW anyone to tell you what he is doing. YOU GET OUT OF THE INFORMATION HIGHWAY as far as he is concerned. If you don’t KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING then it can’t hurt you as much.
When you find yourself even thinking about him, you need to do whatever it takes to think about something ELSE. Sing a song, recite your multiplication tables, or wahtever it takes to get him out of your mind. One person on a blog here recommended that you say “Oh, there’s a thought of him! Now it’s gone.”
It will help lessen the pain, Blondie. I promise!
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 10:18am
blondie says:
how do you do all of this when you have a car in your name and he has it? i dont want to speak with him about it anymore! i want no contact with him anymore. he is all bad news. and he wont give the car back he hides it or gives me the run around about the car. yes he pays for it every month, but i dont want the connection anymore!!. i keep trying to get him to get the money to pay it off so he can have the car in his name, but im sure thats never going to happen.
i just feel so alone. one girlfriend of mine that i thought was a good friend, she said today i heard thru the grapevine that your x is dating a new girl. its like we both know who told you why you hide it? it was a guy we work with that is a friend of my x. idknow i feel completly lonley, i feel like i need to be away from people that even know my x. i know that everyone wants to me to be happy and away from him, but i dont feel like i have any support!
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 12:28pm
OxDrover says:
Let him know that you will report it as STOLEN if he doesn’t turn it back toyou by X date. Then DO it if he keeps it.
Cal the finance company as well and report it stolen.
Call your insurance company as well. If he crashes the car and has not kept up the insurance, then YOU are liable for the damages to the car and anyone else he hurts.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 1:26pm
henry says:
Hello Friends and you too Oxy..Just stopped by to say hello to all and I read Blondie’s post. Blondie I was in the same shoe’s with my X as far as his car being in my name and the insurance in my name. You will never be able to move on – no contact – under these circumstance’s. And the stress of him having this car that you helped him buy will keep you in limbo. Take action. Do what ever it takes to get that car back. Even if you can’t afford it. You can let them repo it, file bankruptsy, if the insurance is in your name cancel it and report the car stolen. He can ruin you if he wrecks that car and kills someone else. If you have a extra set of key’s, have a friend take you and just go get it and hide it somewhere. You can not move forward and away from him with this problem. He conned you out of your love your joy, your self esteem and a car. Grow some ball’s- take action and take back your life.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 2:07pm
henry says:
blondie i read one of your earlier post about going out with a new guy friend but all u could think about was your X and you didn’t want anybody to see you with the new guy because it mite get back to the X. Sub conscienely you and (I), feel like if they see us withsome new then our unrealistic hope of them coming back to us is lost. Even tho we are standing by No Contact we have the illusion ever present in our minds. We don’t want to be like them and (fall in love) with someone else so quickly, because that would make us like them and we want them to know that for us our love for them was real. Blondie with this car situation you cant move forward..take action..doing nothing about it is what he is counting on………yeah it is harsh……my x almost killed me with stress and drama…..we f–ked up in our choice of men—-but life goes on—get the car back or out of your name……….
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 2:24pm
newworld view says:
woo hoo henry is in the house…tks goodness…cause when i was posting to blondie earlier i felt he was in such a similar situation that he could better offer advice…i knew youd come thru henry………..and blondie, oxy is right on….the car is in your name ..it belongs in your control..for all of the above mentioned reasons and then some….when thats back you can return it to the bank or finance folks or pay for it urself if able or sell it, if allowed….that way you can let the jerk find some other means of support….do not let him walk all over you with your vehicle….you are closer to no contact and healing when this thing ends….plus itd be great to get a police file going on him….he can be thrown in jail over this….but thats not the point…get it back so you can take care of your business and yourself…..call the police today…no warning is needed for him who taunts you with such flagrant abuse…….
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 3:08pm
henry says:
Blondie we (helped) them get these vehicles because they were a part of our life. They were making promises to be with us always. We didnt do this so they could drive off into the sunset and screw someone else. I even helped him get a car not knowing he didnt have a driver’s license! Yep I f–ked up big time. But I took his car and mine and traded them both in on a new truck. And we bought him a nice truck for one thousand dollars, wich he did pay for. But I put the title in his name and the ins. That was such a big burden off my back. yeah he is gone now, but with out that 1000 dollar truck he would be here now and I would be his transportation, I was conned by one of the best. But when I bought him that 100 dollar truck I knew it was only a matter of time before he left…………
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 3:27pm
henry says:
ok i confess I couldnt go through with it, I called the internet provider and had it all set up to be cancelled. I still want too, but I can’t now – maybe never – maybe tomorrow – I cant explain – cause I don’t know why – but I can avoid him and guy’s like him – I just stay out of the meat rack’s -
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 3:34pm
JaneSmith says:
HENRY!!1!!
Knew you couldn’t stay away. We are your friends. How can you just walk away from people who truly care for your wellbeing?
It is so tough. Especially as it’s been difficult to find folks in meatspace who understand the grief and frustration these Humaniods of Horror cause to so many innocent, lovely people.
Temptations for curiosity will always be there, whispering in your ear to simply click the mouse on a website. So easy, yet so detrimental to your mental and emotional health.
Stay Strong! Stay Cool! Stay Sweet!! **huggles**
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 3:53pm
henry says:
Hi Jane – I can’t leave here. we are all in this together, thanks Jane for being you, all my friends I say sorry for my latest impulsive behavior……..Henry’s back in the house! But I am going to be more supportive if others and help them heal from the Humanoids of Horroh
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 4:02pm
JaneSmith says:
Oh, and Henry dear…
Your above statement about..’growing b*lls’ to Blondie was just a tad too harsh, don’t you think?
We need to be extremely vigilant and careful with our advice on LF. We have wounded spirits and souls here who seriously need and deserve respect, kindness, and consideration.
Especially consideration, as they/we never received it from the psychos and/or friends, family.
I believe none of is above reproach. No human being on this great big wonderful planet is above any other human being.
We are not superior in our thinking and in our actions. THAT’S for the deluded psycho mindset, not for mentally healthy, conscientious Holy Spirit driven folks.
We CAN strive daily, hourly to be better, more loving, righteous people and this is only possible by treating folks with care and compassion.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 4:18pm
Lib says:
Henry:
I’m glad you didn’t throw your computer in the lake. “My” S is too poor to own a computer or a car right now, and I still can’t manage NC.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 4:54pm
henry says:
Jane Yes My comment was harsh. And I stated as much. I read Blondie’s post and she is so much like me (stuck) in denial. She seem’s so desparatley too want help and answer’s to move past this place she is in. I let my (X) manipulate me, lie to me, over and over and like Blondie I was always wanting him to be something he isnt. And It pisses me off that Blondies X is driving this car around and going on with his life and she is left with so much pain. And the CAR – I did the same thing she did. I could of said it differently, I just want her to get mad at him and take back that car!! If I offended her I do opologize. We can only be door mat’s if we lay down in the floor. I stood up and said no more and I want her to do the same,
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 4:59pm
blondie says:
first of all i just want to say henry im really glad your back. we are all in this together. everyone of you on here is my life support you have no idea. you guys are right i need to just take control of my life and do what i have to do to for me. i feel like iam stuck with this whole car thing. he is hiding it on me. he wont meet me to hand it over, he has it hidden in a storage all locked up. my only choice is to now go to the police. i gave him enough chances to give it back. I need to speak with a Lawery or however you spell it.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:02pm
henry says:
blondie? thanks do you have the payment book or does he have it? is the insurance in your name or his? is it a joint polocy in both your names?
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:06pm
henry says:
And Jane I love you but the holy spirit is not going to get this car thing taken care of. Grit and backbone is needed here……..
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:08pm
blondie says:
everything is in my name. all he does is send me the payments every month. i have the payment book.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:09pm
blondie says:
what do i say in the the police report, that my ex wont give back the car thats in my name and i dont know where he is hiding it at?
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:14pm
henry says:
ok contact a Lawyer, they will discuss with you what you need to do. Call the finance company and talk to a loan officer and explain. But just stop making the payment’s and the finance company will repo it, and then file bankruptsy if u have too. But I really think you should call the police and tell them you have asked for the car and he will not return it. Don’t tell them he is a sociopath. Just tell them he will not return the car. You have to do this Blondie then you can really do the no contact and begin to heal
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:15pm
henry says:
you are the one making the payments – just call the police and ask to talk to someone about this. I am sure this has happened before. Give them his contact info and they will prolly go speak to him and tell them if he does not return it pronto he will be arrested for car theft.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:18pm
blondie says:
thanks henry!!!
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:19pm
henry says:
Do this even if you have to see him. Take back your controll, keep me posted please blondie
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:21pm
rperk6069 says:
Blondie-My X-P, stole his 17 year old daughters car, she got it back. The story is, the car was in his daughters name, not his, he was trying to punish her, took her car, the cops were called, they arrested him and she got her car back. She had gotten the car back within 24 hours of him taking it and it was free since the cops don’t charge. In my opinion, I would try that first. Good luck.
HENRY, I am so very glad to see you back. Missed ya.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:34pm
JaneSmith says:
Henry darling,
Well….I guess I got TOLD!!!….haha.
Don’t worry, you didn’t hurted my feelings. I’m not PMSing…haha.
You were absolutely correct with the ‘tough love’ measure when discussing Blondie’s situation.
You so totally ROCK, DUDE!! and you too Blondie cutie pie!
Now, Henry, where’s the love for your last week sickly cyber pal JaneSmith? Huh?
SHOW ME THE LOVE!….haha. I need me some serious affection, even if it’s only via the interwebby.
Can I have a hug…please? =)
I’ve been stuck in my pleasant, cozy, yet claustrophic inducing humble abode for the past week recovering from a wee bout of sickness. I could only read so many books and watch so many movies until I needed a break.
I went glitter happy. Oh, yes I did. I drew oodles of pics, flowers, butterflies, abstract doodling, you name it….I drew it.
Or tried to anyway. Then splattered sparkly, colorful glitter all over the place. I still have glitter stuck to various body parts even after bathing. I am so SHINY!…haha.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:49pm
henry says:
Jane I read your post about your illness and you crawled into bed and watched Lord of The Ring’s for the umpteenth time. I do that alot, watch movie’s I have seen so many times. They are familiar friend’s and they take us into their world for awhile and out of our’s. I am a very compassionate caring door mat Jane. But as long as Blondie is in this situtation with the car, she can’t move forward. It is a daily reminder to her how she was used and continues to be used. I love all you guys here at LF, and I might be a drama queen but I can kick some ass when I get mad. And I am mad at Blondies X , she will still have to mourn the loss of the illusion but if she doent get that car she might mourn more than she bargained for…
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 5:58pm
henry says:
oh here’s your )))))))HUG(((((( Janie
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 6:02pm
JaneSmith says:
Thank you….:)
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 6:09pm
blondie says:
thanks everyone, i know your worried about me. my uncle is helping me out with this situation. so he has a lawyer that we are going to talk to. just keep me in your prayers..
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 7:13pm
alohatraveler says:
HI everyone,
I was reading this thread, trying to catch up. I just can’t keep up! I was just thinking how much incredible wisdom was here and that is so awesome. We have really learned a lot and know our stuff inside and out. It would be so cool to be togehter sometime. Maybe that will evolve one day.
Who was it that said something about being taught to “put up with too much as a child?” WHOA! That rang my bell!
Then I started thinking, I used to get an anxiety attack when someone said something that hit too close to home… or especially when someone wrote about something that sounded exactly like the Bad Man.
I don’t really have this much anymore. Definately not like before. The sting of what happened has subsided and the wisdom is left. I suppose you can call it wisdom and a changed world view.
On taking medication for depression. I didn’t do it and I probably should have. I was worried I would feel “artificially happy” and also, I had no money for such things. But I think meds can help people to get the sleep they drastically need when they are spinning around in their mind over “the situation” as someone called it.
Anyway, I love love love this site and I love reading everyone talking to eachother. I love going back and reading the wisdom over and over.
These days, I do not mis BM at all. I don’t think about him much. I am starting to date after three years of hibernation. It’s nice. I hope I have learned enough to chose a good partner this time. And, I am practicing my boundaries and readily talk about what I will accept and what I will not from a prospective mate. If they can’t hang, well, that’s good to know.
Anyway, I just wanted to be a part of the group today.
)
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 7:40pm
Lib says:
Blondie:
I wouldn’t waste any money on a lawyer yet. As Henry and Ox said, call the police. Your car has been stolen and you know who has it. You were not married and everything is in your name. That is an easy case for them to solve. You may not even have to see him that way and have the car back in no time. If you get an attorney involved first, the police may be hesitant to get it back for you as readily. Your x may destroy the car or counter the legal fight, you will have to see him, he will cost you more money and the car could be totaled by then.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 7:54pm
alohatraveler says:
Blondie,
I agree about the car. You also don’t have to tell them your story. You already know they won’t get it and it will make you look like a hysterical woman scorned.
It’s easy. The car is in your name and he is no longer authorized to use it. The police can “help” him return the car.
It’s yours. Not his.
He’s going to hate riding the bus… ding ding!
Good luck. Let us know how it works out.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 8:06pm
alohatraveler says:
By “them” I meant the police.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 8:07pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Hi all. Just wanted to say hope you are feeling better if you’ve been sick and holding up your heads if you’ve been down. Henry I’m glad you didn’t leave us, though I know it’s hard for you with the internet and all. We are like a family here, every one of you is so important to me, even though I don’t know you I feel like I have known you all for many years.
Blondie.. that so totally stinks about the car. My daughter’s ex did that, beat her up, stole the car and drove it back to NY. She kept making payments for a while trying to save her credit. Then she finally hired an investigator, drove to NY, found the car and turned it in to the bank. He found out about it the day before though, and sabotaged it, ruined the engine. She was just happy to get it over with but it was a shame.
The Borderline personality they talked about in that one essay here, sounds exactly like her ex.
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Saturday, 9 August 2008 @ 8:14pm
OxDrover says:
test
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 3:44pm
OxDrover says:
Whoopie, the server is fixed!!!
Henry—welcome back! What is this about “hello FRIENDS, and you too Oxy?” Am I not your FRIEND! You stinker, I’m gonna have to get the skillet out again! (((((henry!!!)))))
Everyone said you couldn’t stay away long, but I just missed you so bad, you bad boy!
Back to the car issue.
I think before I hired a lawyer and paid them money I would talk with the police first for FREE, no sense doing anything else if you can get it for FREE.
I WOULD NOT just quit paying the note and let them repo it cause the problem is then that your CREDIT IS RUINED.
He may also have an “ace” up his sleeve since he is paying the money—is that “rent” for the car, or is he “purchasing it on time payments”? It COULD get legally sticky. I would see if the cops can/will get it back for you, then I would either keep it or trade or sell it but not let it go back. Good luck.
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 4:05pm
henry says:
Oxy Yes you are my friend! I tried to leave the internet, I still am thinking about it. Sorry for my indecision and drama, seem’s to be my life here lately. It’s been four months no contact I am so glad he is gone just wish he would leave my mind alone. Other than that I am OK..good to see ya OX put that skillit back in the oven…
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 4:30pm
OxDrover says:
My dear dear Henry,
I AM glad you are back. I couldn’t see the stars last night (it was raining here) so I couldn’t connect with you! LOL
We got wonderful rain and it is still raining today which is wonderful too, even feels chilly which is great since we;’ve been in “hell on earth” here for a while with the HEAT!
I now it is difficult to limit your access to the “meat markets” when you are “tempted” but Henry, YOU CAN DO IT. And we need you here and I really think you need us, your friends! Even your skillet wielding big sis! LOL You have been so helpful to others, and Henry, I think WE learn more and heal more when we are helping others than we do receiving help, if that makes any sense!
When you tell Newbie Poster that SHE needs to stay NO CONTACT, it reinforces your OWN No contact. And when you tell Newbie Poster thix or that it reinforces your own thinking for positive things.
How could I ever face myself If I told you “no contact” and I made contact? See what I mean! It helps US to be stronger and heal faster because we do what we know we should.
((((BUG HUGS)))) glad you are back, even if it does mean I have to get a new oven door from wearing that one out! xoxoxox
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 5:03pm
henry says:
Oxy and friend’s How do I explain my feeling’s too you when I don’t understand them myself? This very chair I sit in now is where he sat for most of his 3 year’s here. This very keyboard that I write to you now is the same one he used to decieve me over and over again. When he was here I seldom got online. Now that he is gone I have become way to attached to this website and the internet. It has become my friend. And my enemy. I don’t waste time in chatroom’s looking for a hook-up. I like coming here and reading the post of my friend’s. Did Blondie get her car situtation taken care of? Perky seem’s kinda down today. Beverly went to the beach to get away. Oh here’s a new person with a broken heart and shattered dream’s, I am glad they found this place because I know it will help. But this is a direct line to where ever he is. What did he do on here that is going to kick me in the teeth later? I am going to change bank account’s because he went into places you have to pay. I am not really smart with the computer and he was. So I am still wanting to cancel the internet for 3 months or so. It will help me move on I think. I will always have a way to get online at my son’s or a few friend’s so I can keep up with you all. So don’t think you are ever going to be rid of me. I have been reading so much about personality disorder’s. I guess these people come into our lives for a reason. We have to look really deep into our own lie’s and stop decieving ourselves. How long can I blame him/her for what they did? So we learn thing’s we didn’t want to learn mostly about ourselves. How do I put my life back together when it has been a life of denial? How do I fight lonliness and become content with my own company? What is wrong with wanting to be in love? Are we alway’s supposed to live in the moment? I can’t unthink the past. And I hope for another tomorrow. What is it about the encounter with a bad person that scar’s us so deeply? I have dealt with the scar’s caused by family. Put that away and said ok, now I understand time to move on. I can’t put him away, I can’t get him out of my head. I wake up every morning hoping I won’t be consumed with thots of him yet another day. I don’t want him back. I just want to feel normal – what ever that is. Yep I am on Zoloft – going to therapy every other week. I have come so far in my recovery. I cherish the people in my life that love me. So many people in this world are suffering real pain. I am so blessed by the universe. I din’t know that this life lesson was going to be so deep into my soul….thanks to you all….I am going to my hill tonite to talk to the stars……
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 6:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
All the questions that you ask—they are the spiritual and emotional awakening that I think this P-experience leads us to as we heal.
Where and what is the MEANING IN MY LIFE? What do I REALLY want out of life? WHO AM I? What is my place in the universe?
To me, all these musings, all these questions, are what make us FULLY HUMAN. A chimpanzee can’t wonder about all these things, they don’t care about these things, although they have some form of “community” in the groups in which they live.
A dog, no matter how much they love you or other animals and they DO love, they don’t ask these questions–they totally live in the “now.”
We can live either in the now, the past or the future through our minds and our thoughts. Of course living in the moment, enjoying the good things that are here for us RIGHT THIS SECOND, looking at the stars, the flowers, hearing our child’s first word. Those are all wonderful things that we SHOULD enjoy and if we are all “torn up” by thinking aobut the past, or in pain in our hearts or souls, we won’t appreciate those “now” things, no matter how wonderful, as much as we could if we weren’t distracted.
I can relate, dear Henry to your “life of denial”—I think I have denied for so long it seemed “real.” I am fortunate though that in some relationships I didn’t carry that denial all the way through them as well. I think to myself that even if I live to 80, my life is 75 % over already—I have waaaay more past than future. But at the same time, if I didn’t have the past I have, for good and for bad, I wouldn’t be WHO I am today, because just as a potter’s hands can make several different things out of the SAME CLAY, depending on how it is shaped by his hands (life) it can’t be all those things, it bends to the pressures, moves, and becomes one thing. Sure it might have been a vace, or it might have been something else, but it is what it is because it is unique to THAT set of hands, that set of pressures—-I am glad I am what I am. (whatever that is) A friend calls me (in a nice way) an OSB–Old School Bitch! LOL And I think of myself as a Crone—an old English word for “Older and Wiser woman”–though not always as wise as I wish I was. LOL
I think that a SPIRITUAL journey, a spiritual discovery is part of the healing process that eventually leads us to be BETTER people than we could have ever been without the P-experience. It may have been a pain ful experience, but like they say “no pain, no gain.” (((hugs)))) (not bUgs LOL)
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 7:55pm
henry says:
OXY If you charged for your wisdom, you would be one rich crone. Thanks )))))BUGS((((
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Sunday, 10 August 2008 @ 8:11pm
takingmeback says:
Henry,
I just wanted to say that I am very proud of you for considering what it is you need to do for yourself. That, in and of itself, is recovery. You know that LF is not going anywhere and I think Oxy should become a resident therapist here
. If you need time away then please do what feeds you. If you feel you need the support you know how to find your way back here. You said all that yourself. Listen to what your intuition is telling you and be patient with yourself if you change you mind. You have a right to change it as often as you need to as you’re recovery from quite an ordeal.
I can relate to how you feel. I have sat back and wondered if there will be a day that the S doesn’t come to mind or his name is not uttered from my lips. What I’ve noticed for myself is that the process ebbs and flows in the stages of recovery and I am slowly redefining my story with each step. It has taken time and it will take as much time as it needs to in order for my brain to find a resting place. But it’s getting there. I don’t want to stop the process. I need to go through it. But I am doing it in a way that I can manage. That’s something we all need to figure out for ourselves. My way isn’t everyone else’s way.
I know in time I will have new memories to replace the painful ones as I become more social and continue to set goals for myself. I am already seeing it happen. I know you will too. As you said it takes time. You mentioned taking a class before (gardening I think). I would encourage you to do so if you haven’t already. Even if it’s hard to get motivated towards goals, step out there and do it. Don’t wait for the emotion to hit you. Actions lead to those good feelings and sometimes we wait for the good feelings to hit before we act. We don’t have to. We can lead the way by what we do. And sometimes we just need to keep doing it until that feelings comes. We’re learning a new way of living and it’s scary. Yet it’s a gift if you sit back and think about it. We have a chance for more
If you do take a respite from LF, I hope you come back and check in from time to time. I’ve enjoyed your humor and appreciated your honesty and have learned from watching you grow. You may not see what we see but you have taken some lengthy strides along your journey. Whatever you do, make sure you do it for Henry. You’re honoring yourself and that makes my cry. It’s a good cry though. It’s a very good cry.
God Bless
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 12:23am
tami says:
It’s been a few weeks since I’ve visited Lovefraud. I’ve got to say that for me, the above information and blogs have been the most validating and enlightening ones I’ve read yet. I’ve learned SO much through this site but the answers to ALL my questions regarding sociopaths are in this particular post.
I realize that a lot of you are still very deeply hurt or still having to deal with these people. I am so sorry for your pain but rest assured that if you’ll just come to accept that NOTHING about your relationship with these people was real except for the evil–you’ll soon be able to heal and move forward.
I can SO relate to the reference about the deep emotional connection as far as sex is concerned with the S! I felt like the most loved and beautiful woman in the world! And, yes, it hurt to learn that I was absolutely no different than any of the other zillion women that he was having sex with behind my back. I always found it rather strange that his desire to satisfy me seemed to come first and foremost EVERY time we had sex. There were times that I wanted to make it all about him and he would never let me. I now understand what that was all about. He could satisfy himself with ANYONE, so his satisfaction wasn’t a big deal. But his being able to satisfy someone else was dependent upon THEIR response to him. If he failed to satisfy, then he lost. It was that plain and simple. Each time he satisfied me, he received an ego blast!
Someone spoke of the “about face”. Wasn’t that moment the most shocking moment of your lives? It was mine!
Although we’ve been to hell and back because of these people, we do have something to be grateful for. We now know that these people exist and each of us are reaching understanding. As times goes along and we seek more knowledge, we learn more and more. And, as we learn, we finally reach understanding. There is NOTHING wrong with us. They did NOT hurt us because we deserved it. Please, please…once you’ve made up your mind and accepted that the person you are missing, pining, greiving (whatever you want to call it) for is a S, don’t allow them back into your life! Don’t ever settle for anything in your life other than REALITY. You’ve been robbed of enough precious time. Get out and get on with you life! I know how hard it is…that’s why I still come to Lovefraud from time to time…but it’s the ONLY way for you to get your life back!
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 7:02am
OxDrover says:
Henry,
Havne’t you ever heard that old saying “them than CAN, DO, and them that can’t, teach!”
I have the wisdom, and I can dispense it to others, but APPLYING IT TO MYSELF is the most difficult thing in the whole world. LOL
I have so much “wisdom” that if it was the weight of feathers, it would push me to the ground it would be so heavy. But just putting one step in front of another is sometimes so difficult. And gosh, when I look back at how I BEHAVED I realize that I didn’t use ANY of this “wisdom” to help myself for SOOOOO LOOOOONG.
I beat myself up for a long time (and really hard, Henry, I broke several skillets! LOL) because I didn’t use the TOOLS of wisdom that I had in my possession. I made life so hard for myself by using the wrong tools, or trying to do it without tools at all. Learning to apply all that wisdom to real world situations—listening to my instincts, learning to actually set boundaries, being honest with MYSELF. I was always honest with others, but not with myself. All these things that I “knew to do” and still didn’t do, are things I am having to LEARN TO PUT INTO PRACTICE. IT’S NOT EASY.
Blogging with others here who also find PRACTICING the wisdom that we all have difficult, discussing this wisdom, etc., it helps me to APPLY this wisdom to ME. That’s what a “support group” is–whether it is AA, NA or LF. Encouraging each other to PRACTICE what we all know we need to do.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 11:55am
Wini says:
OxDrover: That’s because you were in SHOCK over what happened to you. SHOCK is the first obstacle you have to get through in order to bring your balance and harmony into your space. Notice how we (people who can love) don’t disrupt others harmony? All the anti-socials in society, that’s all they do, no matter how they do it … is to disrupt harmony in others. That’s why our ancestors banned them to the hills to live on their own if they didn’t want to play nice with others. Too bad we don’t have the stocks in the middle of the town square anymore … we could all throw our old fruits and veggies at them … seems to me the anti-socials that stepped on and over others to get to the top of the heap … banned the stocks from the center of town because they knew they’d be the first to be locked in them.
Peace. Remember … the foxes are guarding the hen houses in this world.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 1:01pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Wini,
Yea, I admit I was in SHOCK this last one!!! But what I was referring to was that my entire adult life, EVEN AFTER I LEARNED ABOUT PSYCHOPATHS, I never applied that wisdom and knowledge to my own INTERACTIONS WITH THEM. I didn’t set firm (any? LOL) boundaries with those Ps closest to me.
I knew my mother was an ENABLER–a TOXIC one–and yet I allowed her to go on and I even participated in a bunch of it where my P-son was concerned.
I had all the TOOLS that KNOWLEDGE could give me, but I didn’t use the WISDOM that went with them. I didn’t apply them to my own situation until it got SOOOOOO bad I had to literally “run for my life”—but sometimes I think “Remedial Psychopath 101″ is one of the hardest classes that we have to KEEP ON TAKING TIL WE GET IT. LOL
We just have to finally realize that no matter how we jam the square peg, it isn’t going to fit nicely into the round hole! I can actually laugh at myself (head shaking here) for being so oblivious to what was going on around me. I guess DENIAL is one of the strongest stages we can get ourselves LOCKED INTO, and it is sure difficult to get out of it. Kind of like “the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off” Denial, short term, is a beneficial state of mind, but if we get “hooked” on and hooked-into DENIAL for the LONG term it is like a patient who keeps telling him/herself that that CHEST PAIN has to be “indigestion” it just couldn’t be a HEART ATTACK! I’ve seen many people who died because to recognize and ACT ON the signs of a heart attack was so scary to them that they LITERALLY DIED IN THEIR DENIAL when if they had recognized, and ADMITTED the truth, they would have LIVED.
Being a “medical professional” and a “mental health professional” makes ME A HORRIBLE PATIENT. My boys used to call me a “professional hypocrit” telling others how to care for their health and not caring for my own! They were RIGHT!
I have a difficult time being on the “wrong side” of the CLIP BOARD. I am the care provider, not the needy patient. Well, that was the DENIAL that told me that! But, my latest experience has told me that I need to get out of that DENIAL and to accept that I am HUMAN, I have weaknesses, there are things that I can’t fix in anyone, even myself, and that I need to be the one getting the love and care from myself, not ONLY others. That was a GIANT leap for me. A scary leap for me, because I had to leave my SHIELD of DENIAL behind and accept that these nasty things CAN HAPPEN to me, just like everyone else. “Physician, heal thyself.”
I agree that the “foxes” are guarding the hen houses of this world, and too many Ps are in too many positions of power, but I think that has always been the way it was. That’s why I think that P-genes are to a great extent a “beneficial” evelotionary move for them to spread their genes far and wide—many of them have produced copious litters of offsrping.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 1:34pm
Wini says:
Tami: They call themselves all sorts of titles … con artist, flim flam persons, gigolos/gigalettes, managers, CEOs, presidents, VIPs, this and that … what they really all are is simple. How do you spell Wh-res? Besides, they break the very first commandment – believing in their own big egos – putting that little god of theirs before our creator. After breaking the first commandment … anything goes for breaking all the others.
Peace.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 1:39pm
Wini says:
Oxy, that’s because you know how to LOVE. Stop beating yourself up so much, you kept trying to love everyone … that’s not a bad thing, that’s a good thing. It’s our upbringing “do unto others as you want done unto yourself”. Meaning … loving others … looking past their bad behaviors and loving them. That’s the cycle you were in until it exhausted you to collapse. But, you gave it the good ole college try. After you exhausted every avenue … your natural instincts kicked in and said … I’ve got to heal myself. And, that’s what you did. As far as any of them … they won’t change … they’ll keep throwing the wrenches in to everyone’s wheels … slinking back into their dark spaces … peeking out, assessing the damage they caused … and on and on it goes until someone stops them. That someone stopping them won’t be as nice as you … and when they get stopped, you’ll see the crocodile tears streaming down their faces cause they, they, they got caught. Period. It’s what the Bible calls “FOOLS”. That’s what they are … and to violate their temples by sleeping with everyone and anyone to get what they want (aka being a wh-re) is not respecting God. Because they don’t believe in God, that God created us and knows everything before you even attempt to think about something, never mind doing it … Well, let’s just say we’d all like to be a fly on the wall during judgment day.
So keep on loving … keep on being good … keep your harmony flowing … because “WE” enjoy you just the way you are.
Peace.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 1:54pm
Wini says:
They are LAZY (SLOTH), SELFISH (GREEDY), SELF ABSORBED, SELF CENTERED … LIVING IN THEIR BIG EGOS (which Erases God Out), violating the 1st commandment … by believing in their own ego (that little small puny god of theirs) which allows them to violate all the other commandments … violating harmony in/of others to get what they want. Never walking a righteous path in life … therefore, never learning wisdom … just saying the fool through life.
Did I forget anything? Feel free to add your suggestions to this list.
Peace.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 2:02pm
newworld view says:
very unsettling to know of how they spread their seed around so carelessly ……..many, many more of them to survive….scary world for those that are to follow us in this life
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 2:43pm
OxDrover says:
Thank you, Wini!
Yes, NWV, it is really really scary. A mayor in Arkansas just about “declared” Marshall Law in his town by putting into effect a UNIVERSAL CURFEW–he can only legally do it for 48 hours at a time, then has to renew it. I’m not sure that there won’t be some legal challenges to it that make him quit this since it is a 24 hour curfew for all ages.
Unfortunately, the criminal element, filled with psychopaths, had taken over this neighborhood, and gunfire was flying through the streets of this town RULED by warring gangs–the people were afraid to sleep in their beds, and many slept on the floor in order to feel safe from “stray” bullets.
I firmly think that most (if not all) of these gangs, be they black, white, Hispanic or Asian are, run, managed, and ruled by people who would qualify on the PCL-R as psychopaths, or if not “completely” qualify then they would score VERY high.
I don’t quite think that what amounts to Marshall Law is the answer, but the COUNTRY (US) needs to find SOME answer to get and keep these people off the street so that the rest of the country can live in peace and safety. The 20% or so (I think that number is low) of repeat criminals which “qualify” as psychopaths commit something like 70% of all violent crime in the US. Since there is NO (successful) treatment for these repeat psychopathic violent offenders, they will continue to sire children with their genes at a rate higher than the rest of the population reproduces. If nothing else, it might cut down on the children born with their genes if they are incarcerated in a “three (felony) strikes you’re out” situation that some states have already passed. The only problem with that is that they can’t build prisons fast enough.
My own little “Trojan Horse-psychopath” that attacked our family has 8 (that is EIGHT) felony convictions, including THREE child sexual acts (separate children, separate times) as well as drug offenses, and a HISTORY OF VIOLENCE. He will be OUT sometime in the spring of 2010 at the latest, after trying to kill my son C. He has a professional diagnosis of ASPD. When is our country going to “get it?”
Fortunately, this TH-P has been in prison all but one or two years since he was first sent to prison at an early age, so as far as I know, he has no offspring. My own P-son has no offspring, so that is at least two who haven’t so far reproduced, but most of the criminal ones I know about have, and many of the semi-criminal ones have produced 4-6-8-12 off-spring. My P-bio father only produced 4, and only one of us is most likely a P, but still, even a 25% rate with the high numbers of offspring for them is scary. When you consider too, that my own son, with Ps on both sides of the family (both grandfathers) I had two children and one of them was a psychopath for a 50% rate. I have a friend who is bi-polar but not psychopathic, married a psychopath and BOTH of her sons are psychopaths, and one has two women preg now, due with in a month of each other and one preg with twins. I think he has 5 or 6 previous children he also doesn’t care for by 3-4 different women. He is only 34! In and out of jail on minor things, but is only a “semi-pro” criminal. LOL But he is sure out there reproducing ad lib.
So this poor woman has a 100% rate of Ps from her children. She is currently in hiding from her second-P X-husband who will be released from prison soon and will most likely come after her when he gets out.
So as “bad” as my situation is concerning the numbers and percentages of Ps in my family, I am aware that I don’t “hold a candle to” many families, either percentage wise or numbers wise.
The negative truth, the “futility” of cleaning the world out from these people, is sometimes depressing to me, but at the same time, it makes me more than ever determined to NOT EVER AGAIN be a victim of one. Also, to “spread the word” in any way I can to others who are victimized. I realize I can’t “save the world”—not even save anyone else, because we EACH have to SAVE OURSELVES, but if, having done that, we can then each SUPPORT AND HELP someone else while they save themselves, the waves will spread geometrically. That is why I am so grateful for this and other sites educating former victims, helping support them while they heal, and then they hopefully will never again be a victim, and they will help others in their network to heal as well.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 3:55pm
newworld view says:
yes it is most grim to think of for long, but we can at first save ourselves and continue to try to spread the word ….after all change must start one person at a time…..lind of like what oprah through echart tolle and others is trying to do….very, very scary
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 4:58pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I think it’s amazing how many times in the posts one or another of you will say something that describes exactly what my own P’s are like. The “wh..re” thing.. I used to jokingly call my ex-bf that at times, because he knew how to work everything to his advantage with women. His weaknesses, he combined with false humility to make him appear vulnerable and sweet. His strengths, he exploited to win over women who otherwise wouldn’t have even glanced at him.
Also.. I’ve been thinking a lot about sociopaths and the law. I really think it does not matter much to them which side of the law they are on. If they are the plaintiffs, they use their skills to sling mud and blow smoke until they make their victim look guilty as hell, and maybe even believe it her/himself. If they are on the other side, they somehow convince everyone that their accuser is a crazed, jealous lunatic. They are like what Jesus said, men going around like wolves among sheep. They are predators. We can’t really win against them without giving up our sheepiness.. it’s a quandary. I do not want to be ravaged, but I do not want to become a wolf.
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 6:34pm
onguard68 says:
Hello again everyone. I am having a difficult time coming to terms with what I have ahead of me after reading so many stories on this site. It seems so many of you are regulars and posting here for some time. There are many stories about how the ex seems to never go away and does things to provoke a response just making sure to keep the nail in. It seems like this site will become a part of my routine.
Many of the stories seem to be so similar. The stages you go through, the no contact, then contact, then rinse and repeat. The going so long with NC and then bam it’s all over again. That feeling of wanting to try again too as if you can change them. I guess I’m a bit angry that this situation I’m in will stick with me and be a thorn in my side for the rest of my life. Doesn’t that make it very difficult to move on? How are new relationships afterwards? At the moment I get the impression that the ex will always be on my mind. No?
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 7:32pm
Ginger says:
Why can they just walk away? Why can they do that and I have consciously not talk to him and get angry or pissed off that he cheated on me over and over again? How he used me over and over again? He was in a 2 year relationship with someone that he met when we were married and told me that they met when we seperated (a lie) and now he is engaged to be married next month to someone that reminds me of myself when I met him–sweet, trusting and guliable. He lost his job because of his misconduct and easily turns everything around so everyone thinks he was done wrong. He looks like father of the year because he takes our boys when he is suppose to have them. He accuses me of causing tension that our children feel. I started seeing a counselor again at the beginning of June and she pointed out the my ex was a S. In our last session, she said that he is probably the best S that she has ever seen. He is very good and smooth. I never did anything wrong in our marriage, other than staying too long, and he is the S and I look like to crazy one, because I am dealing with a S!
Since he doesn’t have a job, he is behind in child support payments and other reimbursements to me. He told me that he has paid it–I emailed him and told him that I will believe it when I see it. I am tired to being the door mat and him blaming me for things that he should be doing–like being a parent to our kids when he has our kids. I have done everything I can do to collect the child support for the kids–I have alot to balls in the air–bank liens, tax refund intercepts. When he gets married he owes me money, based on our divorce decree. I will be filing a judgement at that time along with a lien on his house. In addition, I am trying to get my house ready to sell so I can move closer to my family for their support and farther from him. He actually hates the town I will be moving too (good choice for me). Since my ex S doesn’t like change or I should say any change that is not being controlled by him, he will fight me about moving about 20 minutes farther with my kids, because it will be inconvenient for him. Everyday, I see my oldest turning into his father and that is just not a good thing. I want to tell him that his father is a liar, cheat and thief, but I can’t. My ex actually told me that I should fake a respect for him in front of my children so I don’t cause tension. I am not the actor that he is.
I don’t want him happy–I want to be free. I want to be happy. I deserve to be happy. He deserves all bad things to happen to him. There I said it. Why does he get to move on with no problem and I have to muddle through my positive and negative emotions everyday? He doens’t think about me everyday, but I need to think about him everyday to maintain limited contact and how I am going to keep him accountable for child support and how I am going to approach him about moving and how I am going to defend myself.
I want to see his marriage fail. He doesn’t deserve anything that appears normal. What really sets me off (of the many) is that after my second child was born I had my tubes tied because he didn’t want to have any more kids and he didn’t want to get sniped. Now, he is getting married to someone that has no kids and they are probably considering a family. That makes me sick. I feel rage, because I can’t have more kids–my freedom of choice is gone. I feel violated. He knew how things were going to end and I didn’t. I made the choice when I was in a fog of believing in him. I get very angry at myself.
I haven’t had a great day and really needed to vent and get this anger off of my chest!
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 8:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear onguard,
No, the “bitterness” won’t go on forever, but “growth” for us should never stop.
It is just like ANYgrief process, and that is what it IS, because we are grieving over our “losses.” The week after my husband (who was my life) died, I was still numb, then over the weeks, months, etc. I became sad, angry, “bargained”, etc etc. and finally came to acceptence. Peace. About his death. I’m mostly in control of the PTSD (thanks to Rapid eye movement therapy for PTSD) and I can remember the good times, and the not so good times, and laugh and though I still think about him, itisn’t painful any more. The longing, the missing, it is not there now. The sadness is gone.
With the “loss” of my P-son, II hae pretty well come tothat same spot as I have with the loss of my husband. But I only think about him as a child, not the painful other parts, but if I DO think about the painful parts, they don’t hurt any more. It is sort of like I am telling you the plot of some movie I saw, not the emotional upheavel I FELT through it all.
Did you ever watch “Jaws” when it first came out? WOW! I mean I had the old adreneline going, pumping! On the edge of my seat. Now, I can tell you all about the show, but I don’t feel that same EMOTION, that same fear, excitement, etc.
Eventually, you will come to the “telling the old movie plot” stage (I don’t know what else to call it) and you can relate the EVENTS, but the attached EMOTIONS won’t be there.
I can think about my X-BF who was a P, gosh it HURT at the time and for months afterwards, but now, he’s just another “movie script.” The EMOTIONS, the PAIN, ARE NOT ATTACHED TO THE MEMORIES of the “story.”
As far as “healing” is concerned, I hope that I am “growing” and getting better for as long as I live.
I’ve been here on LF for somewhat less than a year. Was on another “board” for a while before that, but find I get much more positive information and support here on LF than on ANY other spot. I am also a manager on a Christian suvivors’ board, it is small, only about 18 members, primarily people who have had a narcissistic or psychopathic parent, but we blog about looking at healing from a religious standpoint and a spiritual stand point. Even there, the diversity among the group is very wide–some of the people are not even “card carrying” Christians, but more just spiritual. The main thing I like about LF and the other group is the acceptence of various view points within the groups.
I don’t think anyone just “gets over” the betrayal and the devestation “quickly” and “moves on” without some serious soul searching, self analysis of why we “went along with” the abuse for as long as we did, or why we didn’t “get it” earlier on in the relationship. But, if you don’t find out what went “wrong”—how can you avoid the same mistake again?
I am one of the people here who “didn’t get it” for a long time, and had to take “remedial” psychopath 101 several times. LOL But NOW I do get it and I want to make sure I get a Ph.D. LOL
For my money, I think as long as I am going to pay “tuition” in the University of Hard Knocks, I want the DEGREE! I sure don’t want to repeat any more of the “lessons.”
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 8:23pm
tami says:
After reading all these blogs I have to say that I am SO very grateful that I do NOT have to have any dealings with my ex husband the sociopath! I think it is because he found another woman EXACTLY like me and that’s when he was through with me. He used me up and I was getting closer and closer to seeing him for who he really was. There were many red flags and accusations of his inappropriate behavior with other women during our marriage and each time he lied his way out of it. The last time, I told him flatly “one more time and that’s it, buddy”. That’s when he desperately started seeking a new victim and sure enough–he found one. Because he is so busy getting what he wants out of her–he has NO interest whatsoever in contacting me. He knows he can’t use me or fool me anymore. I’m SO grateful for that because honestly, I fear that I might physically harm him if he ever attempts to come back around me for ANY reason and he must know it. He wouldn’t even come and collect his belongings! I hauled away 12 loads of his belongings to the city dump and sold anything of value. It was perfectly legal for me to do so. The divorce papers stated that he had 90 days after the divorce was finalized to collect his belongings and he didn’t because like every sociopath, he is a coward. I NEVER threatened to hurt him but he knew he deserved it so he feared it. They are all little paranoid wussies! They are pathetic excuses for human beings. Now, tell me ladies and gentlemen who are still missing and longing for these people–what on earth is there to love or miss about them?!?!? My ex is getting what he deserves…he has mistreated so many people and slept with SO many women that were wives, girlfriends and daughters of other men, that he lives each day in fear of getting his head blown off by one of them. He’ll live the rest of his life this way…that’s good enough for me!
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 8:42pm
alohatraveler says:
Onguard,
I don’t think your ex will always be on your mind because you seem to have a handle on what he is and you have also noted the patterns that people go through in healing. Perhaps your observations will accelerate the process.
You noticed how people struggle with going back and forth with no contact. You might have noticed one thing that is missing. No one, NOT ONE, reader has ever written that they took a the S/P back one final time.. and that time.. he really did learn his lesson and now they are living happily ever after.
What you might have noted again and again is that promises keep coming for things to be different this time or better but all we get is more of the same. Keep these things in mind and be a fast track healer!
All the best to you.
)
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 11:03pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Ginger,
We must have been writing at the same time on our last posts, so I didn’t see yours when I posted mine to Onguard.
I hear your frustration and your pain, and that is a very normal and natural and to-be-expected response to what you have been through.
Having children that you have to “share” with this predator is I can only imagine how painful. I don’t know how old your children are, but at any age it is difficult, especially, I would think if they are teenagers.
An “ordinary” divorce is traumatic enough for kids, and one with the P can only be horrible!
The feelings that you have been betrayed, lied to etc. are all so valid. Working through them will take time and a lot of effort, and there will be times I am sure you will feel like you “can’t take it any more” but at the same time, you are the only defense that your children have against this man.
I hope you get your child support, but most of the time they will make you “earn” every penny with your limited time and emotional strengths. It becomes a battle, a constant battle.
Since he IS behind in his support and you are only moving 20 minutes further away, I don’t think any court in the world would stop you from doing that, and I am glad that you will be moving closer to support for you and the children. I know it is difficult to deal with these people, and especially when you feel alone. Having support of family and being further away from him should, I would think, help you. Taking care ofyourself and your children is your prime “directive” and to heck with his tantrums. I hope with is new “wifie” and maybe new children on the horizon he will lose interest in you and your children and give you some peace. You deserve peace.
Vent all you like, scream and rage! This is a safe place to do that!
Good luck with dealing with him, and I wish you all the luck in the world in doing so. Do what you have to do for yourself and the kids, and let him rage and throw tantrums—take back your POWER. He’s had it for too long to make you miserable! You are stronger than you think—he can’t control you any more! HIGH FIVE!!!!
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 11:09pm
OxDrover says:
PS GINGER: they can now reverse tubal ligations, my step son’s wife had it and their son is now 20 yrs old. Your choice is NOT gone forever if you ever decide to have more children, there is HOPE, LOTS OF IT. ((hugs)))
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Monday, 11 August 2008 @ 11:11pm
takingmeback says:
Wini I’d like to add to your list LOL. Let’s see. You mentioned Sloth and Greed. I’ll add….
Lust- (or lechery) is usually thought of as involving obsessive or excessive thoughts or desires of a sexual nature. Unfulfilled lusts sometimes lead to sexual or sociological compulsions and/or transgressions including (but obviously not limited to) sexual addiction, adultery, bestiality, rape, and incest. Dante’s criterion was “excessive love of others,” which therefore rendered love and devotion to God as secondary.
Wrath- (or anger) may be described as inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger. These feelings can manifest as vehement denial of the truth, both to others and in the form of self-denial, impatience with the procedure of law, and the desire to seek revenge outside of the workings of the justice system (such as engaging in vigilantism) and generally wishing to do evil or harm to others. The transgressions borne of vengeance are among the most serious, including murder, assault, and in extreme cases, genocide.
Envy- like greed, envy may be characterized by an insatiable desire; they differ, however, for two main reasons. First, greed is largely associated with material goods, whereas envy may apply more generally. Second, those who commit the sin of envy resent that another person has something they perceive themselves as lacking, and wish the other person to be deprived of it. Dante defined this as “love of one’s own good perverted to a desire to deprive other men of theirs.”
And the kicker…
Pride- in almost every list pride (or hubris or vanity) is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to give compliments to others though they may be deserving of them, and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God). Dante’s definition was “love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one’s neighbor.” In Jacob Bidermann’s medieval miracle play, Cenodoxus, pride is the deadliest of all the sins and leads directly to the damnation of the titulary famed Parisian doctor. In perhaps the best-known example, the story of Lucifer, pride (his desire to compete with God) was what caused his fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan. Vanity and narcissism are prime examples of this sin.
Throw in gluttony and we have the seven deadly sins. Thank you Wikipedia for the descriptions!
Regarding the spiritual component of recovery I find this very interesting. Sociopaths are described as diabolical. Hmmm…
In 1589, Peter Binsfeld paired each of the deadly sins with a demon, who tempted people by means of the associated sin. According to Binsfeld’s classification of demons, the pairings are as follows:
Lucifer: pride
Mammon: greed
Asmodeus: lust
Leviathan: envy
Beelzebub: gluttony
Satan/Amon: wrath
Belphegor: sloth
Interesting isn’t it?
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 12:34am
OxDrover says:
I have always thought it interesting that ANGER per se was NOT listed as among these sins, in fact justifiable anger is shown to be one of the behavioral traits of Jesus, who told us “be angry, and sin not” and “do not let the sun go down upon your WRATH” He knew that anger at injustice is not unreasonable, but a reasonable emotion. However, He also knew that WRATH (see above definition) would lead to “SIN.” People who harbor, nurture and feed WRATH definitely do things that are not good. To others or for themselves.
After the P-experience, as I like to call it, it is difficult for us to NOT FEEL WRATHFUL, and on my part it takes GREAT EFFORT to let go of that wrath. NC definitely makes it easier to let go, but even thinking about them can rekindle the flames of wrath if we allow it to.
As long as we are in that “wrathful” stage, I think it impeeds our own healing, because we can’t focus on anything except that INTENSE feeling and the thoughts that go with it. Lying awake nights thinking of ways to “get even” with them (and I confess to doing that) isn’t a good feeling at all.
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 11:08am
onguard68 says:
Thank you all for the input/insight. I have another question that I continue to struggle with and that is the way she comprehends things. She does not seem to comprehend conversations like a normal? person would. Has anyone noticed that in dealing with them?
For example: If I say “why do you yell at your girls so much?” = she will say to me sometime later in a conversation… “You say I’m a bad parent”. I NEVER said she was a bad parent nor do I think that statement even implies that. I asked her “why do you yell at them, they didn’t do anything”. = Then she responds with “You are under-minding me”.
I went through this sort of behavior with her constantly. She hears something different that what is spoken or written. Anyone notice that? I can’t say I came across anything yet on the site about that.
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 4:45pm
rperk6069 says:
Onguard,
This is my opinion only. When a person takes what you say out of context, they are shifting the focus on you. This is the way they do it to avoid talking about what they are doing and put the focus back on you.
This has happened to me many times, I know it when it happens, but I cannot stop my self from going into an explanation of what I ACTUALLY meant, which again, in turn, puts the focus back on me and takes the focus off of them.
They comprehend just fine, but they will do anything to “wiggle” their way out of having the focus on themselves, thus, then they would have to acknowlege that they did something “wrong” or whatever you want to call it and do something to correct it. This is not what they are about. They are always right in their minds.
I am not a good writer, so I hope this makes sense.
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 6:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Onguard,
Perky’s answer to your question about how they talk makes a great deal of sense and I agree with it, it is about shifting things to you.
Obviously, she also “interprets” what you are saying to her, or “translates” it into not the WORDS you said, but the INFERRED MEANINGS that she thinks you are PROBABLY SAYING.
In the “yelling at the girls” scenario, she KNOWS that “yelling all the time” at the girls isn’t the mark of a “good parent” by the definition of most people, just as she knows it is wrong to steal in most people’s eyes, but if she DID steal, she would resent you saying WORDS that might IMPLY she was a thief.
She is taking your “question” as a STATEMENT, a judgment, and proceeding from there. By doing that, it also then transfers the argument about what she was DOING to what YOU were saying. It is easy enough then to make the argument about “you said X” and you reply “No, I didn’t say X” and what the original question was goes out the window and then you are no longer talking about HER behavior, but YOURs, and YOU are on the defensive.
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 6:56pm
OxDrover says:
PS: I just thought of the perfect example of this, type of thing. Eric Berne, in his book “Games People Play” gives the example of the man who comes home and pleasantly asks his wife “Where are my cuff links, Dear?” But instead of saying “oh your dresser” which is the adult answer giving information, the wife says “What? Am I your maid?” Then the fight is on.
Now if the husband had instead of really asking for the location of his cufflinks was in his snide way making remarks about his wife’s housekeeping, which could ususlly be told by the tone of voice in which he asked, said “where are my cufflinks dear?” And the wife assumed rightly that he was trying to pick a fight just answered mildly “they’re on your dresser, dear.” Fight avoided.
So here are two instances where the “fight” was either provoked by one who hadn’t intended to provoke one, and in the other where a provocation was side stepped and an open fight was avoided.
How we answer “questions” can either start or stop a squabble, or refocus it to someone else.
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 7:03pm
tryingtorecover says:
I finally have few minutes on the computer. Sharing it with a teenager on summer vacation is not easy:)
I’m going through the anger again. I’m so angry. Sunday my ex brought home my son from his visit and when he came in the house my ex didn’t pull away. I looked at my son to see what was coming. He said his dad wants him to bring out the dog to see him. I let him, but I didn’t want to. He got out of his truck and stood in my driveway smiling and bending down to have a precious reunion with the dog. ( I love that dog-she didn’t even acknowledge him.) But, seeing him in my yard ( technically my elderly mother’s yard, who he conned 100,000 out of) brought back feelings I thought were under control. Now that he’s back in town and I can run into him and her anywhere, my house is my safe zone. Or so I thought.
It’s been over a year since he left. Am I a slow healer? I know everyone has a different pace, but I feel like I should be able to deal with him better. I do ok when he’s not around, but seeing him on my territory (the house we lived in for half of our marriage is right next door to my mom’s)made me feel outraged and so sad at the same time. I’m having trouble shaking it.
He also still would like me to talk to him. He finally sent Aug. child support $100 short and said in a note he would send the rest in a few days . He says if I would just talk to him he could explain it. Ugh.. Just uuugh!
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 8:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tryiingtorecover,
There isn’t any time “frame” that is right or normal or even average–it depends I think on lots of things, and it isn’t EASY to reach peace and resolve all the issues, especially when you see them and it “triggers” the old feelings.
I can definitely relate to the “my territory” feeling. I ran into XBF at an auction about 20 miles from my home that I go to frequently on Saturday nights—he lives 400 miles away and when he walked in to MY auction in MY territory, big as life, I almost LOST IT. I know that he knew that there was a good chance he would run into me by “accident”—what the heck was he doing in MY territory? He burned down the house of the last GF, was he just pulling my chain to let me know he could slip into MY territory? WHAT?
That violation of MY territory was a shock (I sure didn’t expect it) and made me feel very uneasy and angry. It triggered a lot of old feelings. I had seen him before in places that I EXPECTED to seem him (neutral ground) and it didn’t upset me at all. I’m not sure what it is all about, but I think the violation of MY territory was part of it.
Good for your dog!!! I think his being $100 short and wanting to “talk to you to explain” and even his “wanting to see the dog” is all lame attempts to start talking to you. GOOD FOR YOU for staying with NO contact.
They just want for us to “pretend none of this happened” and be “friends”–PUKE!!!!! That would let them off the hook, like what they did wasn’t so bad iin retrospect. BULL HOCKEY!!! Hang in with your NC it is obviously working if he is trying to manuver you into talking to him.
Just try to EXPECT to see him around town and her, and keep your chin high and hang in there! It will get easier, you are doing all the right things, and one day you will just wake up and realize you are NOT thinking about him. (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 8:35pm
tryingtorecover says:
Thanks Oxy. It’s so validating when some one responds. Sometimes I just need to write it out and get it out of my head. I hope you’re taking as good care of yourself as you do of everybody here:) (((hugs))) back to you.
By the way, my dog is a border collie. I think I read you have some. She is very shy. We got her when she was 1 1/2 years old. She came off of a farm with trained dogs, but she wasn’t. She’s the sweetest little dog in the world. What’s weird or maybe not so weird is she actually got a little better after my ex moved out. My mother noticed it almost right away. I never saw him hit her, but there must have been something.
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 9:42pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tryingtorecover,
Collies are SOOOO smart and intuitive, they AMAZE me all the time! If I give a command that the dog knows (or thinks) is in error, he will stop and lookk at me as if to say “are you sure?” (Usually the dog is right and I am wrong!) I have a bumper sticker on my truck that says “My Border Collie is Smarter than your HONOR STUDENT”–lol
I do public and school demos and the kids (5ht graders) always love him, and he is SUCH A HAM that I think he is half hog!
Your X wouldn’t have had to kick her for her to KNOW he was a bad man. I swear I think they can “read minds” and know who is okay and who isn’t. I’m glad she has a good home with you and that you and your son have her.
It is validating when we respond to each other, sometimes I think that support was ALL that kept me in touch with reality and sanity last year.
It is difficult to raise a child or children as a single parent (I’ve been there) but your children and you are so much better off than if he was still in your household. NC is the worst “punishment” they can receive because they can’t get it that they are NO LONGER IN CONTROL—YOU ARE! They can’t stand that, they do just about anything to get you to break NC so that THEY are back in the driver’s seat of control. Just keep that in mind when you want to scream obscenities at him that saying NOTHING is more painful to him than ANYthing you could say would be. They don’t like to feel that they are not the center of your universe, and NC shows them they are NOT. HIGH FIVE!!!!
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 9:57pm
henry says:
Oxy That last paragraph is so right on. Keeping no contact really is “the only punishment” for a sociopath. It does take away their ego and give’s us the power over them that they hate. So they finally give up and go get their ‘ego’s” stroked somewhere else. I will never acknowledge his exsistance if I ever see him out and about. But I have to make a comment to” tryingtorevover”. I am a father of two son’s, I divorced when they were young. So we did share custody and we did have to deal with visatation etc. I don’t see how you can remain totally no contact with the father of your children. I do understand how you feel, and I am not familiar with your situation. But people that divorce when their are no children involved can go on and not look back. But you can’t do that when you have children. So you look for other’s way’s to keep your space. But I don’t know, my x wife was not a sociopath just a women scorned. And we are truly the bestest of friend’s now. Oxy I got 6 inches of rain here and the low temps are wonderful. I have been taking advantage of this cooler weather and gettin some landscaping project’s going. I always get industrious the first hint of fall. Going to start a wrap around deck with a cover on the one corner of my house. Hello Gang!!!!
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Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 10:26pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
We didn’t get that much rain, but what came down came slow and steady and humidity high and temps lower so it IS NICE especially after the foretaste of “hell” we’ve had lately.
Henry, I know I am “answering for” Tryingtorecover, but you know, it just depends on the circumstances of the divorce whether or not you need to maintain verbal NO CONTACT, and on the ages of the kids, etc. ANY divorce is difficult for all parties concerned, parents, and kids, but one with a psychopath involved can be a REAL hell on earth! Not just a heat wave. LOL
There are times I think it is best for people to communicate ONLY through lawyers and/or written notes, rather than speak face to face, at least for some period of time, if not forever.
I found out the hard way that I couldn’t do contact with my mom face to face. I tried and it worked sometimes but when she would “bring up” stuff, or give me “that look” I just couldn’t handle the triggers. Now if I talk to her it is very briefly on the telephone. Most of the communication I do with her more than 20 seconds on the telephone or an e mail, I do through my sons. They don’t trust her but they aren’t badly triggered by her like I am.
There would be a great deal of community pressure from various people we know toward me to “make up with” my mother, but I don’t want to have to defend myself from these well-intended onslaughts so I avoid these people like a plague. First off it is NUNNA THEIR BIZNESS and secondly, I just don’t want to have to defend myself even though I know these people are well intentioned and caring. They just don’t “get it” and there’s no way I can make them “get it” so it is just best to stay away.
I can understand Tryingtorecover’s anger that her elderly mother was ripped off by her X for $100 grand! That is not only abusing her but her mom. We daughters are very protective of our mothers (unless like Me you find out your mom is TOXIC too) and protective moms to our own children, so if the Bad Man hurts both of them as well as me, I would be 3X mad at him. Personally, I wouldn’t have let the dog go out of the house! I think she was more than reasonable and “nice” to let him see the dog—like he REALLY wanted to see the dog. Border Collies are absolutely THE smartest breed of dog (not trying to start an argument here LOL) and belive me what she said about the dog not paying him any attention, that DOG KNEW what he is/was.
For right now, I personally think that Tryingtorecover definitely needs to keep up the No talking to him for HERSELF right now, there may come a time when she is comfortable doing that, but her post tells me that is NOT YET. How would you feel if you had to see and talk to your X on visitation days for the dogs and the cat? I think it would blow you out of the water, I know it would me. Your divorce may have not been a “happy” one, but neither of you were psychopaths and that is the thing that makes the difference. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Off subject a bit, but today the boy who was in the airplane with my husband (age 16) at the time and spent 5 months in the burn unit of a local hospital stopped by on his way to move into his college dorm for the fall semester. It has always been difficult for me to be around him, he is terribly disfigured on his arms and body with scars, though his face was thankfullly spared. He is such a good young man, his parents are wonderful people, and he and I had a really great relationship the summer he stayed with us to learn to fly. But it has always been so very painful to think of him at the wreck site and also in the hospital when he was so out of it he didn’t always know me.
I was dreading him coming to visit, antsy and anxious about how I would feel. But we had a great day and the anxiety wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought and I actually ENJOYED his visit. He and my son D went out to our target range and practiced shooting at various distances and they had good “guy time” together. The young man is working on his degree in aviation and flying and doing so well. He never ceases to amaze me with his accomplishments and his truly loving and kind nature.
I’m looking forward to the next time he comes to visit! That’s a big burden off my back that the anxiety and I can’t describe what the feeling was–but it’s gone, and that’s good.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 11:04pm
henry says:
ok before Trying To Recover reads this I want to say I was not pointing my finger at her. I truly can relate with her X being EVIL. But they will always be the parent’s, weddings, graduation, grandkids etc. Maybe there is somekind of neutral place or other arrangments to help with the no contact for now anyway. Oxy I think your anxiety with seeing this young man triggers “that day” and how wonderful that he wanted to see you, to let you know, you don’t have to be anxious because he loves you…….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 12 August 2008 @ 11:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
Not arguing with you, dear, just pointing out that she was demonstating a lot of triggering just seeing him come into her driveway. I’m not sure how old her kids are but I think her main concerns are for TODAY right now, not weddings in the future, granduations and such.
I am glad the young man came by and I do know that he loves me and sees me as more than just a friend, but as like a favorite aunt or something. He would come in the kitchen and cook with me, and go outside with the guys and work, and was just an all around GREAT kid.
Visiting him in the hospital after the wreck for those months that he was there was TRAUMATIC for me—burn units are about the ONLY place I never could (emotionally) handle working, because it is sooo painful for the patient. I have done lots of outpatient burn care, and cared for the other two people in the place (my son D and the pilot) outpatient, but this kid’s burns were over most of his body and both arms, hands, and ears. I guess his visits were triggering back the memories from the burn unit—I finally had to stop going, I just couldn’t take it.
Whatever triggered the “feeling” when he came to visit me, I am glad that this time it didn’t happen. Now I can look forward to his visits, not just DREAD them.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 12:22am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Well, I certainly missed a lot being gone for a day! I just want to tell you peeps that I had an amazingly good day, and was in a good mood for most of it, even though of course I did do a little bit of grieving as I do most days, and called my mom. She is not sympathetic to my problems, but she is supportive of my feelings and my dreams. I’ve been making myself get more exercise, cook more, clean more, talk to the kids more, and set firmer boundaries with the men that come into my life, though I’m still pretty mushy around the edges.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:07am
tryingtorecover says:
Henry,
My son is almost 15. He has his own cell phone, so they can talk anytime they want to. I stopped talking to my ex in Jan. after one more set of games. (It involved no calls for a week, a story of doctors and a hospital-but no ins. claims filed- and a call from my lawyer asking if everything was ok with us because my ex couldn’t reach us. He had called our cells, but never the house phone.) I gave him numerous ways of communicating with me. (e-mail, texting, fax ,voice mail, notes) He had an excuse for all of them. I tried having a parent to parent relationship with him. He would never give straight answers about what days and times he wanted to see our son. He would lie about the days he would be in town and then call his lawyer and say I was interfering with visitation. When he first said he wanted to leave and started going out all the time. I would ask him and eventually beg him to call D to say goodnight to him. (D would try to call him and he wouldn’t answer. He would go to bed upset or crying.) One time his dad did not show up for a visit and did not call to say he was not coming. The next day he called the house and asked to speak to D. I told him I would asked him if he wanted to talk to him and Bad Dad started to yell at me to know why D would not want to talk to him. I calmly said ” You didn’t show up yesterday. D was very upset. He yelled ” You had no business telling him I would be there.” I said “I didn’t. You did.” Dead silence on the other end. Luckily that time he not only set up the time with me, but with D. If he did not tell D himself, he would have told him I lied to him (actually he would have IMPLIED to D I had lied to him). In writing is the only way to deal with him. NO he said, she said. One more example I told him about 3 payments I had to make up front for braces- not a problem on the phone. When i sent the bill to him for his half, I got a vm stating if this is what it’s going to be every month he couldn’t do it. He was going to call his lawyer and tell him about this. I text him and told him we already talked about it. His response- I forgot. Everything in writing.
On the personal side for me and healing, I can’t (yet) listen to his lies and manipulations without getting upset. He would not stay on the subject of D. Ever. He never asked me anything directly about D. Not how he was dealing with things or what was going on with him, his friends, his life. He only wanted to know how D felt about HIM. I would tell him he needed to talk to D about it. He would always talk about how rough he had it because he couldn’t sleep . He couldn’t stop thinking about things. He wishes he could make things better. He has no money. blah blah blah… (he was driving around in a new Volvo, a new truck and Harley at the time) I can’t listen to it. I don’t want to listen to it. I don’t have to listen to it.
Thanks again Oxy:)
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 10:27am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
Good for you! Getting up and getting out is good for us, and also your energy level coming up indicates to me that you are doing well. When I am not “doing well” I tend to not have energy or ambition to do anything. So, yiou go girlfriend!!! High Five!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 10:28am
henry says:
Tryingtorecover- Thanks for explaining things a bit for me. My heart goes out to you and your son. Your son is 15 will be driving soon and that will help with you not having to see your X. I hope your son will figure out his Dad is not good. It took me 48 years to except that my mother was truly evil and not just a self centered b—h. Had I known about Narcissist and sociopaths and evil personality disorders at a very young age my life would of taken a different path. One that did not consume me with always looking for approval of the one’s that abused me. Again my heart goes out to you and I do understand why you don’t want to see him……
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 11:31am
OxDrover says:
Dear Trying to recover,
I think we were all sort of posting over each other! Your post wasn’t there when I was posting to Kat. LOL
I think your situation is about as “good as you can make it” under the circumstances—everything in writing! WOW! You have to keep’em honest or they will LIE LIE LIE!!!
I kept things oral with my mother, and boy that didn’t work. Did she ever gaslight me and convince me that I had “forgotten” or that “she had not actually said that”—because I never imagined she would LIE—but now that I know she would and will lie LIE LIE—everything in writing.
I also think your son is old enough to do what he wants to about seeing his dad. I also think that seeing his son is not as important to your X as “making you miserable” by his excuses of “wanting to talk to you”—I think everything he is doing now is about keeping you stirred up, and NC doesn’t give him the NS he wants. LOL KEEP IT UP, IT IS MAKING HIM MISERABLE. Since the only way we could communicate with my P-son or he with us was letters, it was interesting to see how he tried different tactics to get contact, to get a chance to “convince us” and to “fix the situation.”
My mom had offered for YEARS to pay for college courses for him while he was in prison, and he always gave us excuses why he couldn’t do it, even if she paid. Right after the arrest of his Confederates, he wrote her saying “Yea, I think it’s a good idea, send the money for the courses I have enrolled” Of course she didn’t send the money and no letter either, and he wrote back with a “you let me down” stance of “well, I had to cancel the courses since you didn’t send me the money and now I won’t have a degree when I get out” LOL Of course if she had sent him $1500-2000 for the course he would have had commissary money for a while, because I can almost guarantee he had NOT enrolled in a college course.
They wiggle and waggle to get you to have contact with them. We all know that your X doesn’t care about your son except for whatever NS he gets out of it, and by trying to get information about you out of your son. Or to use him to get you to talk to him again. I just think it is great that he is frustrated that you are NC with him. YOU ARE IN CONTROL and he is NOT in control! Way to go! HIGH FIVE!!!!
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 12:08pm
JaneSmith says:
Onguard,
When I was involved with the X Music Man earlier this year, I asked him why he never mentioned his 19 year daughter. He never, ever talked about his past or about the people in his life of the present.
When I asked him about his daughter, he said…”oh..so now I’m not a good father..” NO! I never said that. HE did. I have no clue whatsoever if he is a good dad or not, though he didn’t seem to want or need to make a connection with her and me. As if he knew I would be out of the picture soon and why waste the time of me and her getting to know each other?
Well, obviously the jig was up with him in May 08 when he devalued and discarded me. He realized I wouldn’t allow him to treat me as a door mat, as I have quite a bit of self respect and love for myself. And as he was never as wise and smart as I was, that he wouldn’t be able to deceive me much longer. And….he couldn’t.
Oxy, Henry, Bevvy, etc…I received an email message from the young woman I contacted on her myspace page. This is what she wrote:
“Hello Kim,
I am a bit at a loss for words here, as your message was very much a shock to me. It was definitly unexpected and concerning because I have been in abusive relationships before, and was very impressed by how sweetly “D” was treating me. So far in the relationship he has been nothing but sweet, gentle, generous, supportive and willing to jump to help out with whatever I needed. What exactly happened?
Best wishes,
______”
======================================
See? She is a sweetie just like me. Here’s what I responded to her. Any feeback from you peeps is much appreciated:
Hi ____,
Thank you for responding to my message. Yes, “D” was extremely sweet and adorable in the first couple of months we were together. Everything was going swell then he would out of the blue freak over something I said, or something I did. He would completely overreact to whatever happened, which confused and hurt me. This happened quite a few times. Then he would leave, then come back apologizing profusely and i would forgive him as we all make mistakes and I thought we were still getting to know each other.
My purpose in writing you is NOT to sabotage your burgeoning relationship with “D”. I simple felt it was my duty as a woman who was deeply hurt by his callous, insensitive treatment, to inform you of his personality disorder. This is a man who professed to truly love me, then less than 24 hours later is yelling in the phone for me to ‘quit f*cking calling him’ because I confronted him regarding his arrogant, rude, disrespectful tone (attitude) he was using on the phone with me. He was drunk as he is a heavy drinker but he is sneaky about it.
Anyway, within 5 minutes after him hurting me with his cruel words, he sent me a txt message saying…’if you come to my house it will be your last mistake. if you create problems…you will pay’
Does that insidious threat sound like a person who truly loves me, or who hates me? It hurt tremendously as I didn’t understand why he would go to such lengths.
I have been researching personality disordered individuals for about 3 years now, and thought I was quite capable of recognizing them. Well, “D” used the illusion of kindness, sincerity, silliness, pseudo spirituality to seduce me into to caring for him. Any good, loving, compassionate, considerate woman would have done the same.
He never called me after that night but sent me a txt message saying he didn’t think I loved him. I didn’t DO anything wrong! He never took accountability for the pain and suffering he caused me.
The last time I saw him was May 14. He may have already started seeing you before or at that time. I’m not sure and am no longer concerned. Just wanted to let you know.
Please believe that I am not trying to ruin anything with you two. Maybe he will be different with you, I simply don’t know. But I do know that men with personality disorders are hard wired to behave the way they do. They’ve been this way either since childhood or it hits in adolescence. I’m still learning more & more about the complete spectrum of PDs as I’ve been a target for psychos for too many years.
When I saw your pics with “D” I thought you were adorable and seem sooo sweet and pretty. If I am aware that a woman might possibly be hurt by him, I feel compelled to warn her. It’s the right thing to do.
Just protect yourself. Guard your heart closely until you get to know him better. I trusted him too fast and forgave too easily.
Take care of yourself because you absolutely deserve to be loved and respected.
ps…I’m sending you a pic of me to prove I’m not some harpy skank. I’m a decent gal who was good to “D” and he betrayed me for reasons unknown to me.
========================================
I want NO revenge towards the Music Man. NONE. My goal in writing her was to warn her. That is all.
I can honestly and candidly state as of today I am over him and his crap. Truthfully this time.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:02pm
henry says:
Jane Smith… I understand you wanting to warn this woman he is involved with about his disorder. And you did that. So please stop all contact with her – she has been warned…………and I get a not so good feeling about you contacting his new victim…just want you to be ok….
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:19pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jane,
I believe your intentions were not revenge. Of that I am sure. I can’t say that “warning” the other is the right thing or not. This has been discussed in other threads and one of its own, to warn or not. How about the next girl he is with after this one? Do you keep in touch with him so that you can warn her as well? At what point do you quit tracking his relationships to warn each new victim? We know there will be an unending string of them.
I hope that she listens to you and puts up her guard. If she tells him you warned her he may become violent toward you. I wish there was a definitive answer to what to do and how to go about it. (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:28pm
Beverly says:
Hiya Dearest JaneS. Your communication is well worded and you respect her right to continue with D, but are warning her not to be taken in by the honeymoon period. You were obviously moved to write to her. I believe it is an individual choice whether to contact the next ‘victim’. It has its hazards but also commendable. I am right behind you sweet, whatever you decide.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:32pm
Beverly says:
One of my friends is urging me to try and get a job where the exN works just to piss him off and show him who is boss. I do not usually avoid a challenge, but knowing how evil they are (and I dont think my friend really understands) I am not willing to take the risk.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:36pm
Beverly says:
By having no contact of any description, I can sleep easy knowing that he wont have ANY reason to direct anymore of his toxic energy my way and whatever happens in his life has NOTHING to do with me. Its been nearly a year – end of August. Hooray.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:48pm
OxDrover says:
Smart move, Bev. I don’t believe that “poking the lion in the cage with a stick” just to “show them who is boss” is a smart move. I think your friend really doesn’t “get it” at all.
That kind of “game” ought to end in third grade I think.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:50pm
JaneSmith says:
Thanks my lovely friends for the direct, candid advice.
Henry, I will not be contacting her ever again. I have said my peace, alerted her to the situation and I have washed my hands of the whole debacle.
I should have never clicked on his myspace page last week when I became foolishly curious. But I did and communicated with his new victim. That curiosity is done with. A limited minute of weakness on my part as I was illin and bored.
And I am in NO way shape or form afraid of him becoming violent towards me. First and foremost, I moved from the hill I was living on when I was involved with him. Even if he magically discovered my new residence and tried to confront me (which he won’t cause he’s a coward), I would place the fear of a woman scorned in his black heart.
He’s an amateur psycho compared to the 2 I was with in my 20s. THEY tried continuously to terrify me with their overt threats and all they did was annoy and piss me off! When the tunnel vision (the red rage) took over, they ran away. Why? I don’t know. Guess they thought I was “CRAZY” and capable of homicide….haha.
Love you, my friends. Thank you so much for listening (reading?) and replying.
I bet when we finally DO meet up (which we will as I am determined to make it happen someday) I bet we all just sit around, drinking coffee and/or cocktails, good music in the background, sharing scintillating convo, antecdotal silly life stories, a regular ole chat fest!!
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:51pm
JaneSmith says:
Bevv dearest,
I agree with Oxy. By you having some form of personal contact with him, I think former intense emotions might be stirred up and brought to the surface.
But you’re so very, very smart and wise and you will do what you will to protect Bevvy. **Huggles**
And….CONGRATS!..on the upcoming yearly freedom from the XN!!….YAY!
Now….let’s go to the local pub and have a nice brew!…or a glass of water, whatever in celebration of being alive and liberated from tyranny!!
YAY Us!!
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 1:57pm
Beverly says:
Dearest JaneS. I thought I saw his new gf a few weeks ago, but I havent seen them together so I didnt know if it was her, I was relying on my intuition. Lets put it this way, if I was in a pub and she came into the ladies loo, I would mention that I had been his ex gf and would leave it at that. If she asked my anything or tracked me down to talk – I WOULD TELL HER THE LOT
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:00pm
Beverly says:
I can be impusive when angry and when we split, because he walled me off and I was suffering physically and emotionally and thought he maybe gave me some nasty disease, I went to his home at 2 am and stuck a letter through the cat flap in the front door. When I got home, I regretted what I did, so I went back to the place and the letter had been blown out of my reach. I had to go to my car and got the metal pole that keeps the bonnet up and used it to get the letter back. If I had been a man, I probably would have punched his lights out. I have since learnt as Oxy says not to poke him in his cage. I did some crazy things.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:07pm
henry says:
Beverly LMAO I can just see you stickin that pole through the cat flap. They made us temporarily insane, lucky for them we didn’t do worse……..! In retrospect whew! arent you glad that is all over!!!!???? (M) entered my house many time’s stickin his arm through the pet door and reaching up and unlocking the door. I had to install a dead bolt and changed the lock’s. I recieved a email from his new victim. I should of deleted it, but I opened it. Picture’s of them together ( read between the line’s here), it didn’t upset me. I offered (M) a home and a life of love and happiness. He prefer’s multiple sex partner’s. Whew glad that is over……
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:46pm
JaneSmith says:
Bevvy,
Ok, forgive me, but I laughed at your letter retrieval…haha.
Only because I’ve done the exact same things many times only it was me pounding on doors or calling them repeatedly on the phone for explanations! Of course, this was in the beginning stages of the relationships or in the final throes of one.
I can be so flippin obstinate and inflexible in my search for truth, even if the truth tears my heart out. Better to know now than later is my motto. Some men just disappear, thinking they’ve wiped the slate clean without offering explanations/truth.
Oh boy, if their tentacles are emotionally and/or sexually wrapped around my heart, I have been known to pursue until I receive satisfaction, the truth, darnit!
But, I’ve calmed down in my old age…haha. I don’t waste my time trying to convince, persuade some dude in realizing how wonderful I am and how dumb he is…haha.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it don’t and I can walk away without hearing from him ever again and NOT ruminating about cause. This action is concerning non-PD types I’ve known. Just regular fellas that were unable to elicit any interest in me.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:48pm
Beverly says:
I thought that would make you laugh. Henry I did some crazy things. I borrowed my friend’s car and her wig and sunglasses and sat outside his place for a few hours ‘determined to catch him’. Nothing happened. So I went into the chapel at work, and prayed to God to give me a sign to catch him out. The evidence was already in my home on the phone which he gave me a few weeks earlier!! Yes, Henry, I have a peaceful (but abit lonely) life. Henry is M, using his new partner to wind you up?
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:51pm
OxDrover says:
Dear BEv,
Don’t feel “too crazy” I think we ALL have done “crazy” things like that, or at the very least MOST of us. (can’t speak for 100% of the bloggers here)
I gave mine so much ammunition —which was of course all lobbed back at me—because I just didn’t realize that they were AS EVIL AS THEY WERE! and I kept trying to convince them to SEE how they were hurting us ALL. DUH! I didn’t “get it” but I do now and any contact–even emotional or keeping up with them—seems to be counter productive if there has ever been a “love” relationship of any kind with them. As far as the X-DIL and the Trojan HOrse-P, there wasn’t any “love” on either side with either of them so there wasn’t the VAST EMOTIONAL loss there was with the X-BF or the P-son or my Mom. I keep my eyes on them for my safety because I DO KNOW that they can be homicidal.
Fortunately, though, I think both of them know I can be like a mad mama badger when I am cornered and if the only way out of the corner is through them, then so be it. In fact, I think both of them think I am more of a “danger” to them than I think they are a danger to me, so hopefully that will keep them at arm’s length where I don’t have to defend myself. On the other hand, with my P-son, I think he would go after me if he was able even if he KNEW it would result in his own death as well. He has a hard enough time “losing” to anyone, but especially to ME. He sees me as some sort of troll to be overcome at any cost, and blames me for every bad thing in his life, iincluding being incarcerated for murder. I don’t get his reasoning but somehow it’s “all my fault.” (as far as he is concerned).
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:53pm
henry says:
I think it is his way of getting back at me for no contact. I have only had 2 encounter’s with his new friend by email. I need to change email address scince i am unable to turn off the internet complety at this point. But why is his new friend involved in this? I seiously think the new friend want’s me to come over for a three way. I want more than that, I want a 2-way on a one way road or I can take care of things my way…..
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:57pm
Beverly says:
Henry, I know you loved M, but he was far too windy for you. You so deserve a much better calibre of man, and now you have the wisdom behind you, and you know what you dont want. Now you can concentrate on what you DO want. You’ve done all the other stuff and its empty. We want more fulfilling partnerships that enhance our lives – with a bit of sparkle thrown in (thats what I would like!!)
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 2:58pm
Beverly says:
Yea, Henry, I think he is trying to get at you from a distance. The No Contact must be needling him and he wants to devalue you even further. Say ‘My Way or the Highway’!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:00pm
henry says:
Yes I keep asking myself if I really loved M. I guess I did but , keep asking myself why? There really was nothing to love…
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:02pm
Beverly says:
Lets face it, Henry, any email his new partner sends you, is going to be provocative. Personally I wouldnt even open it. And Im sure you dont want to be involved in the fallout from their relationship, when M has trashed that one.??
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:05pm
Beverly says:
Henry, I keep asking myself the same question, I think it was a case of Beauty and the Beast. I believe in fairy tales because I think they tell good stories.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:06pm
henry says:
I put a block on his mail but it went to my spam folder. No I don’t EVEN want to know about them. I just resent that I helped a homeless sociopath better his life and circumstances and is moving up as far as his deceit goes. Before me he never had acsess to a computer so now he has learned a new way to find victim’s. I am not poor, just a simple guy with a simple life and money and wealth has never been my God. Now M is with a guy that has alot of that, and will prolly continue to move up the ladder in his victimization. Guess that doesnt make sense but I kinda feel responsibe for giving him that …..and resentful, but not one bit jealous….
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:17pm
Beverly says:
Henry, I was going to say the same thing, but as I wrote it I deleted it. I was going to say that I felt responsible for bringing him out of the dark into society. He was literally like a vampire, working nights alone, and had a skin condition that reacted in the light or sunshine. He shut himself away in his squalid room like a leper and I brought him out into the open. At the time I thought I was doing the best for him, now I realise that I have ‘activated’ him, because I got him a day job in with mainstream people.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:21pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
Enabling behavior (doing something for someone that they SHOULD be doing for themselves) gives US a “high” because it makes us feel “superior” to be the “fixer”—”You poor baby, you can’t be a responsible adult and provide yourself a car, so I will purchase you one, to show you what a good person I am.”
Then, he takes the car and goes out to visit some one-night stand. You then become insensed and angry.
“Hey, I bought you that care, (and therefore you owe me) and you use it to go see other guys! You low life you”
“He replies (either thinking or verbally) “Hey, it was just a car, you don’t OWN ME. I can do what I want”
So the “pay off” is that you BOTH end up feeling abused.
I had a therapist tell me once that “the ONLY legitimate rescue is to pull an unconscious person from a burning building.”
When we try to “rescue” someone who has mired themselves down in a bog of poor decisions, all we accomplish is to get mud on ourselves and they go right back to the mud.
The Bible gives an example of “washing a sow” as useless because she will go right back into the mud again, so why bother. A rescue of someone who isn’t trying to help themselves is just like washing that hog, USELESS, and just makes them and ourselves mad.
LIke trying to teach a pig to sing, frustrates you and pisses off the pig. It just ain’t gonna happen.
There is a fine line between helping someone and enabling them. I HELPED that girl who lost the pasture for her horses in the tornado, but she NOW feels like I owe her a free place to keep her horses because she really can’t afford to have the horses at all (and is not able to feed and care for them properly) so she is upset at me for saying “Move your horses”–she wants me to “enable” her now. It is NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to provide her a free pasture forever. It is NOT my fault that she cannot afford to take care of her horses. So, if I allowed her to continue to keep them here to “help” her out, I am ASSUMING responsibility for her horses, which I WILL NOT DO. One reason being that in the shape they are in, the humane society could come out here and attack ME because they are on my property. Also, one of the horses is a viscious biter (it almost amputated it’s owners breast once already) and doesn’t even know how to lead, and they are destroying the fences (which the owner is not fixing) and if they get out on the highway (which the way they are tearing down fences is sure to happen) and get hit by a car people could be killed, and I could be held liable.
So, it is clear to me that I had to set a boundary. When we do for others what they SHOULD do for themselves, we are ASSUMING responsibility for the OUTCOME. So if we give advice and it turns out to be bad, it is “our fault.”
Sometimes we also leave ourselves legally responsible for their actions, and the consequences become ours. Like if you loan your car to someone and they get it seized hauling drugs in it, the cops take the car, and even though you didn’t know your friend planned to use your car to haul drugs, toooooo bad, Bozo, you lose your car.
Why did you love M? Maybe some how “enabling” him under the excuse of helping him made you have a sense of being “good” and that he would repay your goodness with “love.” (which he obviously didn’t) But what you saw (at the time at least) as “helping him get a better life” was enabling him to have the better life without HIM DOING ANYTHING to provide it for himself. Since he had a long history of NOT PROVIDING these things for himself it should have been “apparent” that he wanted to BE PROVIDED these things. However, as I know from my OWN ENABLING BEHAVIORS, if people don’t want to live that way, they do provide for themselves except for a few acts of God like storms and tornadoes. Very few people who are willing to work have enough “bad luck” over and over and over to keep them “living out of cardboard boxes” unless they have contributed to this life style by not taking care of their own needs. It took me a LONG time, Henry, to save my empathy and sympathy and my “helping” to people who aren’t just mooches.
Just like the girl with the horses. She hadn’t been able to afford the horses in the first place (she and her husband have custody of 4 kids between them, and he pays support on another one) and both work hard but have little money, she has problems with her Borderline Mother, but the mother was supporting the horses, not the girl. Now, she wants ME to provide for the horses. Not gonna happen. Not my responsibility. I just got involved because the tornado did wipe out her mom’s farm, fences and all buildings except the house. But now that I SEE clearly the situation, I’ve set the boundary. MOVE the horses. (and I did have a bit of a guilt trip about it, because I too love horses, but I’m smushing that guilty feeling down! LOL)
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:27pm
Beverly says:
But Henry, lets face it, we were naieve about antisocials. How could we have known at that time? I also do not put money on my list of requirements for a partnership – but as a friend so aptly said ‘ You expected nothing – and you received nothing’. I think in choosing a prospective partner, we have to look at where THEY are putting their energy.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:30pm
Beverly says:
Henry, I think the bottom line is that we have to learn to value ourselves, so that we dont receive the lowest of the low. I think many of us on here just havent valued ourselves enough. Oh we know we are kind caring people towards OTHERS, but how have we been towards ourselves? How much value have we given to our God given attributes, to all the time and energy we have put into good ordinary life events.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:35pm
Beverly says:
What you describe Oxy is the same as what is described as codependent behaviour. It is a passive form of being in control. I have a book, which I bought years ago, called ‘The Messiah Trap – when helping you is hurting me’. I obviously didnt learn from that book when I bought it, but I sure understand now, because antisocials are extreme creatures. In a sense, we can learn from them, not learn to be like them, but learn as a result of being with them.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:39pm
henry says:
Bev Yep We have to take care of ourselves and our experience with these guys has made us look at ourselves. I have boundaries now. I will not be disrespected or degraded. And if someone try’s I will call them on it! Bev. your guy never lived with you? OXY I guess being a life long people pleaser catches up with us.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:44pm
Beverly says:
Oxy, Its like those manuals that give you tips about how to make yourself more attractive to people of the opposite sex. the danger with those, is that you just dont know who you are attracting. For me that is the biggest lesson, discrimination is key.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:45pm
Beverly says:
No Henry, he nearly moved in, but he moved in and moved out on the same day – very strange, I dont know what he was up to, I guess he thought that if he moved in, I would be able to keep a close eye on him. But he had a key to my home, that was a big step for me, but that was as far as it got. Give em responsibility in stages, but i certainly wouldnt give him access to my money – I think he was working towards that, but he would have got nothing out of me. But ho hum, he got my energy, and that is pretty priceless!!
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:49pm
henry says:
I am not a control freak, maybe a little codependent and in denial. But M gave me that control. Insisted on it. Then resented it. He is not responsible enuff to take care of him self. He does work and makes decent money and if he could get by with not paying rent he would, But I set him down in the begiining and told him I am not Surgar Daddy material and if that is what you want move on. He then gave me all his money and I thot that was because he loved me but it was because he didnt have anywhere else to go at that time… he was looking for a better victim and telling me i was the love of his life at the same time
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:51pm
Beverly says:
Yea, Henry, my ex did that too. One of his pet phrases was ‘You lead and I will follow’. But all his actions showed, that he didnt want to let me be in control. I had much the same as you Henry. He was introducing me to people as his ‘missus’, he was telling me I was more than he ever imagined. What a lot of b…..ht. He probably felt like that at the time, because he was on the high of getting his ’supply’ – i think henry, that, that is the bit we misconstrued.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:55pm
Beverly says:
You know that old saying Henry, ‘Love is Blind’. I think every contributor here knows what that really means.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 3:57pm
Beverly says:
I think we misconstrued the high of ‘feeling in love’ with the high and intensity of their feeling – the hit of them anticipating procuring something from us. Maybe the brain acts in the same way and that is why we cannot fathom why the intensity got to us in such a big way.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:02pm
Beverly says:
I think that is it, Henry, we are confusing love for intensity. We are thinking that because it is intense, it must be good, must have substance, it must be love, it must be special, we must make it work.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:07pm
Beverly says:
Maybe that is what the hook is for caring people. We spend so much time giving out, that people rarely take notice of us, rarely validate us. Perhaps when someone comes along who ‘appears’ to value us, we are more susceptible to being hooked??
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:09pm
henry says:
bev I have said this before on here. We all have our fantasy and illusion of the perfect partner. And when a con becomes that illusion and fantasy it is more powerful and consuming than any reality. Because to me that perfect partner only exsist in my mind or fairy tales. it’s best to keep our fantasy’s to ourselves and look at someone as who they are instead of giving them the script to become who we want…….my bad
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:12pm
Beverly says:
But its much more than that henry. Its also about the way we were brought up. I was neglected as a child and I am very good at helping other people, infact exceptional. But in helping others, they are in my debt, in a sense, its like buying affection – filling that gap that wasnt filled when I was a child and that makes us susceptible to the fantasy. When we break through that barrier of understanding, we have broken the hold it has over us. that is why we tend to choose the needy ones.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:15pm
henry says:
I agree but let us not forget – they choose us – size us up – and use us up – we won’t go down that road again will we Beverly?
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:19pm
Beverly says:
Henry, when our eyes are truly opened (and that is what Love Fraud is about for me), we can avoid the holes in the road.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:19pm
Beverly says:
Oh, right Henry, I have thought about that too. They chose us, because we were receptive. They have very good antennae. My ex and I had a discussion about that, because when i walked into a bar to have a drink and there was a man at every table, i went and sat next to him, but he maintained he chose me. That is very important, that it is a two way fit. But we wont go down that road again Henry.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:21pm
Beverly says:
We were receptive Henry, and that is the key. Why were we receptive? We could have refused – many of my friends WOULD have done. But I didnt, I nearly did, but I over rode my intuition, and so I have to ask myself what was my weakness and it is in my upbringing
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:25pm
henry says:
after the sociopath- hard learned truths – the truth will set us free-but first it will piss us off yes LF has sparked a change in my life – so this has happened time to move on. I can honestly say most of my pain has been self inflicted because i was ignorant…
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:28pm
Beverly says:
Henry, Some of my friends said, that because he didnt have a car, no money and no stability that that was a sign that he was an unstable character! And yet, we say that we do not get attracted for money, but there has to be some evidence of where that person puts their energy. If they have no money or very few possessions, then in my friends view, that is proof that they are unstable!!
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:29pm
Beverly says:
On Cyberpaths, Fighter says that naievity is the enemy! But we have wised up Henry. ((Hugs))
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:31pm
henry says:
Bev we have so much in common I really feel like we relate in so many ways. thanks for being my friend…but in my case with (M) he just walked in and took over. I wasnt in love with him when he moved in with me. It was him becoming someone he wasnt that i fell in love with great actor he was
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:32pm
Beverly says:
We have to look at what made us susceptible and receptive to these anti socials and ensure that it never happens again.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:33pm
Beverly says:
I have a strong sense of you Henry, being quite a nice fatherly laid back – perhaps a bit do lally kind of man with a naughty sparkle. Some people will exploit that kindness. It is a pleasure to be your friend and I am truly glad that you are back posting. We all missed you!! xxx
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:35pm
Beverly says:
These anti socials dont want to be themselves,, it is too painful – they just mold and adapt themselves to whoever and whatever they can get. They are masters at forming the attachment and intensity, but they run out of steam, when it comes to real committment – give and take – proper loving relationships.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 4:38pm
Beverly says:
Can I throw another one into the pot, before I go to bed. Perhaps we projected onto them, and that is what gave us the fit – made some of us receptive. I cant speak for other people, but I am conscious that I projected and got very involved in trying to sort HIM out, make life better for HIM, ease HIS path – I think I projected my needy inner child onto him. That was also a painful realisation for me.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 5:07pm
OxDrover says:
Yea, the “co-dependent” or “enabling” behavior ends up being control-rebellion-control-rebellion and everyone involved is unhappy. Eric Berne describes these “games’ in his book, “Games People play” and even though the enabling may be a two-handed game, there are three roles; victim, rescuer, and persecutor. EVERYONE involved in the game plays musical chairs with the different roles, one minute you are the rescuer, then the next the victim, then back to the persecutor role and “change chairs, children” and it all continues like a well-designed dance.
No, Bev, I am not “after money” either in a relationship, but if someone has nothing at all and lives out of cardboard boxes, that tells me SOMETHING about him. WHY is he living out of cardboard boxes—was he in Hurricane Katrina? Well that was two years ago, or three, so WHY is he STILL living out of cardboard boxes. He’s an engineer with a Ph.D. and “can’t find a job”—WHY? Well, there are lots of jobs at fast food joints, isn’t that better than NO JOB? Too much pride to work for Micky-D’s—oh, well, get a grip, I have cleaned other people’s toilets when I needed a job—so why’s he too good to work at a minimum wage job, is it more dignified to move in with me and have me pay the bills?
I loaned some money, not much $150 I think, to a nurse at work one time for a hard luck story and she paid me back, then again she asked to borrow money, and I loaned her that much again, then a couple of weeks later she came over to tell me she couldn’t afford to pay me back right away—and she had a $60 set of new artificial finger nails. She never paid the money back and I found out later that she did that with every fairly new person at work. A pattern.
After I saw the fingernails, I realized the reason she was in bad financial shape was her spending patterns. So I got caught out for $150 bucks. Big deal, but the point is that she was doing that to everyone she could and I was just another dupe. I could probably have raised hell with her and gotten the money back, but I didn’t think it was worth it. She sold out a friendship for $150 bucks—she got the short end of that deal, and it didn’t cost me much to find out she wasn’t a friend.
I’ve always been a fairly “easy touch” the first time, but seldom the easy touch the second time (after getting screwed) and I am not one to risk a great deal of money or whatever on the “first touch”—and I do try to help people when I can. I have been helped many times by “angels” when I needed it very much and I can’t pay those angels back directly, and the only way to pay them back is to pass on the help. Sometimes I actually do help people, and other times, like the girl with the horses, they try to take advantage of me. Even Jesus healed 10 men with leprosy and only one came back to even thank him, so I guess if I help one out of ten, I am at least getting as good of odds as Jesus did! LOL
Over all though, I would rather help people and NOT expect any gratitude and if there is any I will be pleasantly suprised and not disappointed if there is none. But at the same time, I will not—let’s say I will REALLY TRY NOT –to eanble people or to take over their responsibililties for them. I don’t want to turn the helping/enabling around to where I have NO COMPASSION FOR OTHERS. I would much rather have only one of out ten really benefit from my “help” than to quit trying to help anyone, they’re just trying to rip me off. i.e I don’t want to become hard-hearted toward my fellow man.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 5:07pm
Beverly says:
Yes, Oxy, Just talking about the book, and about our susceptibility, it explains that those who have been unjustly treated will be susceptible to the Crusader. People who are searching for the truth will always be magnetised to a Teacher. Those people who are confused will be drawn to Counsellors. Those who are in trouble or in crisis will be drawn to Rescuers. Those who feel vulnerable will be susceptible to Protectors. Those people who are in need will be drawn to those Givers. People who appear to be dependent and uneasy will be drawn to Pleaser types.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 5:40pm
Beverly says:
Oxy, the book also sets the structure in terms of victim, offender, messiah – which is the same, but a differently worded version of the triangle you mention.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 5:49pm
Beverly says:
Part of the key to enabling, caretaking, is that SOME people who act as caretakers depend on the response of others for their well being. Somewhere in our upbringing we learnt to negate ourselves in favour of the authority figures in our lives – probably to ensure our survival. Some caretakers have a tendency to been drawn to and want to help people who share similar childhood pain. I help people who live alone – I live alone.
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 5:58pm
OxDrover says:
I think so many of the books that we read are talking about the same things but they just “name” them differnt things, but the concepts are what are true, regardless of what “name” you give it.
As long as you get the CONCEPT it doesn’t matter what “label”you tack onto it. The bottom line is that we should not take responsibility for “trying to fix” another’s life. We should not take responsibility for another (adults’) well being unless they are comatose.
I think many of us who are “caregivers” (by whatever name) end up in the “helping” professions–medicine, nursing, therapy etc. because it is satisfying to us to “help” others and Make a difference in their lives. When I was working I got a LOT of positive feed back from patients, clients, families, neighbors, friends, the community in general, etc. for my “helping” professional work. It is a heady thing to be placed on a professional pedestal and to be “looked up to” because of your professional expertise. It feels really good to get that constant positive feed back.
I loved diabetic teaching and was apparently very good at it because I had some “hard core cases” that by excellent teaching and continual monitoring, as a team with the patient, we got their Blood sugar totally under control, where that had never been the case before. When my medical records were reviewed 100% of my patients had the appropriate vaccines, teaching, follow ups etc. (most of the clinics in my 7-clinic group were scoring 25% and one clinic amost 10%) My phisician peer reviews were excellent. I liked getting those scores because it told me I was doing an excellent job. I frequently received letters from patients and their families thanking me for my professional services and caring.
That was a big part of my “self esteem” I think, being good at what I did. But what I DID, is NOT ME. I wasn’t “good” or “worthy” by what I DID, but that was the way I kept score I think. Even though my “socre” was high from others’ view points I think I still felt I had to give and give and give and there was never a time I could accept without guilt or feeling of failure. I think that was why it was so difficult for me to “be the patient” in therapy. So hard to be on the “wrong side of the clip board.” (maybe it is that way with other medical professionals too. I’m not sure)
Learning to be okay on a day when I don’t DO anything is a hurdle I am still working on. (Henry, my boys are beating me over the head with a skillet on that one! LOL)
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 7:45pm
henry says:
Oxy It is ok if you don’t do anything sometimes, all that work will wait on you. I bet alot of you guy’s wonder if I ever do anything because I am on here alot. I never sit still. I am always doing something. When I blog I am folding cloth’s, doing the dishes, mowing the lawn etc. It never end’s. And I do work, I own my own landscaping business and have several wonderful client’s that think I can do anything. And it is rewarding for me to be appreciated for my work and talent. But back to the “games we play” I am guilty of the musical chair dance. I was trying to keep up and figure his next move. He didn’t play fair, he cheated at the game. I suffer alot of guilt about the bad thing’s I did in the relationship. But I knew I was being used and cheated on. I am not perfect and I had a disfunctional childhood just like he did. I just hoped he would see that we had a chance of something good and do something, anything to nurish that chance. But it was a very confusing game to me. I tried to play by the rules. He changed the rule’s constantly. And he had a double standard. Any way I had to end the dance, the game was killing me and he didn’t care. He just moved on and left me here to put my life back together, the life he almost destroyed. I thought I could return to my old way of life before “HIM”. Not a chance, he taught me alot and doesnt even know it….
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Wednesday, 13 August 2008 @ 8:15pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I gotta share with you guys my big dilemma. I just graduated from community college with an AS in teacher education, and was accepted at the big state college. Problem is, it just seems way too big for me right now. Way.. too big. And I’m not even sure I really want to teach. Just keep me in your thoughts and prayers plz everyone, as this is a big dilemma for me right now, and I’m running out of time.
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Thursday, 14 August 2008 @ 2:49am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Beverly you are so right about watching for the financial signs. It’s not so much that these people can’t make money, but some of them drift from job to job, group of friends to group of friends, they seem to have many more excuses than evidence of a solid character. And yeah we aren’t supposed to look for money, but maybe it’s more looking for signs of stability, not so much wealth. I mean, you can be pretty poor and still be stable.
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Thursday, 14 August 2008 @ 2:52am
henry says:
Kat What were your initial intentions when you took this course.?
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Thursday, 14 August 2008 @ 2:54am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
Listen to your heart and do what you REALLY want to DO. Sure, going to the “Big U” can be scary, but at the same time, remember when you were learning to drive and how “scary” it felt but you did it cause you really wanted to be able to take the car out by yourself. So if you REALLY want something, go for it even if you are scared. If not, wait a year and then decide.
you are absolutely right, “signs of stability” are important. Whether it is in a job, financial handling, friendships, or whatever the context. Without that “stability” they become unpredictable. I think predictablity allows us to trust them, and what kind of a relationship can you have without TRUST? A psychopathic one? LOL
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Thursday, 14 August 2008 @ 11:37am
onguard68 says:
So glad this site is here! Thanks for the replies about ‘comprehending’. When I log on here and read these replies I am most often in shock at how similar the stories are to my own experience. If I can nail down one single thing that killed my relationship it was asking questions and confronting her about the countless and often meaningless lies. She was so good at taking the focus of her, so defensive.
Seems all I did was explain why I asked her things, unbelievable how she flipped it around. I was always saying “don’t flip it around on me, I just asked YOU a question” or “that is not what I said”. I never got straight answers from her just babble and stories that never added up. I bet she turned on me for this reason, the ‘about face’? I suppose I could have just walked but when you invest so much into a relationship it’s hard to turn and walk but I tried many times.
It would drive me insane how she reacted to my asking her questions! She thinks I’m crazy and mentally unstable. I’m still shocked because it seems there isn’t a day that goes by where I recall something else that happened and upsets me even more. I can’t wait to get passed all this, its bringing me down.
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 6:05pm
henry says:
yes “Taking the focus off of them and putting it on you”
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 6:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Onguard,
It still AMAZES me how SLICK they are at it too, and before you know what has hit you, YOU ARE THE ONE TO BLAME. It I think is kind of like a magician, they dazle you with some “distraction” and before you know it the trick is over and you didn’t see a thing and you are awe struck with “how in the heck did that happen?” LOL I know it isn’t “funny” but in a way it is, because of their “slight of tongue” ( a litte pun there)
To this day, if I watch a magician I am still amazed, even if I KNOW how the trick is done, same with the Ps you know they are doing it but you still “fall for it over and over”–that’s why NC is SOOOO VERY IMPORTANT or we would never break free. Like the last time I saw my X-DIL, she was so sweet to me that “butter wouldn’t have melted in her mouth” and if I didn’t have a picture of her trying to kill my son etched in my mind, I would have just thought she was “wun-der-full, Darlin’ ” In the 8 yrs I have known her she has never even been polite to me. LOL They arrrre slick!
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 6:45pm
Beverly says:
Dear Oxy, Yes they are the chaos creators. But like a magician, when you go behind the stage and look at the props you realise the illusion. They get our attention first, get us to attach and then when we are busy looking up one street, they are playing havoc down another street.
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 6:48pm
Beverly says:
Oxy, I dont know what the weather is like in your area, but here it has rained for two weeks and we have had flood warnings!! Im off to bed cos its 1 am, the downside of the time difference. Nite Nite
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 6:50pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Bev,
Well, we had a two or three week “internship in hell” heat wave then a week of moderate summer temps, and today the weather is straight out of Scotland, dreary, rainy, and cool. Where I am usually if you wait a day or two the weather will change to something completely different, but we do have 4 seasons—spring, almost fall, Christmas, and almost spring, LOL Am enjoying the cool and the rain though! I had planned to get to South Africa, then London, then Scotland this year, but with all the financial problems in the US and the devaluation of our $$, price to do so doubled, so not this year for sure! That’s the down side of being retired, fixed income. The up side of working is you have the money to travel, but no TIME. Always seems too much of one and not enough of the other, or vice versa.
Yea, they ARE magicians, and I always said my P-bio father could make you think that black was white and vice versa. He was a very convincing speaker if you let him get into your head. Unfortunately I did let him get into mine. As much as he hurt me though, it is (in retrospect) how funny that I apparently made him fear that I would expose him for what and who he was. There were several other people he feared that might expose him and he what we call “tried to clean up in front”–i.e. he tried to “dis them before they dis’d him” but the funny thing was, it didn’t work. Several of the people, besides me that he harranged on in his self-published autobiography are now such well known and respected people in the world that nothing he said could ever have hurt them in anyway.
One of the questions on another blog I am on that was discussed was “what becomes of the psychopaths and narcissists in the end?” Of course there is a wide variety of things that happen to them at the ends of their lives, some are rich, some poor, some end their days in nursing homes, some in prisons, some in homeless shelters, some with 100 relatives all gathered round to see who gets the money. LOL But of the ones I have known who have since passed on, they don’t have much of a life when they become elderly. Many times they are bitter, hateful, spiteful, alone, or with one or two people in the family hanging around for an inheritence.
Sometimes they have nothing to look back on that gives them any satisfaction—pathetic really. They have driven away anyone that ever truly cared for them. Spouses, children, neighbors, co-workers—any one they have dealt with. If they die wealthy like my P-bio father did, it still doesn’t give them much satisfaction.
Watching the way my wonderful step father died, and how many people were there with and for him, how admired and loved he was by everyone that knew him, the huge size of his funeral, and just the LOVE THERE, I contrast it to what I imagine (I wasn’t there) my bio-father’s passing was–only one of his 4 children that cared about him at all (and he is probably also a P) and no one else in the world that liked, loved or respected him. (head shaking here) Now, I ask myself, which of the two would I rather be?
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 7:17pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I swear we have all the luck in NY this summer, we have had the mildest, most beautiful weather all summer long. It’s been raining a lot lately though, seems like September came a little early. Nobody has even gotten a sunburn yet, and with our celtic genes that’s a real rarity.
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Friday, 15 August 2008 @ 11:29pm
Beverly says:
Dear Oxy. If and when you do your big trip, be sure to visit me wont you. Apparently tourism in the UK has been badly hit by the currency rate exchange.
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Saturday, 16 August 2008 @ 2:32am
newworld view says:
to henry and all….boy we miss a lot when we dont show up for a couple of days here…..so im just skimming……..so that why this was directed to henry……remember you are only several months out…..it took me a good 12 months to where it was a noticeable relief….some take less time , some more….i think you are waaayyy beyond where i was at 4 mnths….if i had found lf sooner, i believe i would have gotten relief sooner………anyway what im saying is, you have every good reason to be assured that your brain will let go of the space he is taking up very soon…besides the pals here at lf, the psychiatrist sounds like he was helpful on the first visit…..that is very rare…..also i knew echart tolle before oprah made him so popular……and the main point he always comes to is when thinking and feeling bad….come to the now, the present…..it is so freaking easy to do and such good common sense, i cant believe…..ONLY think of the present…even if it is an ant walking across your table….dont think back or to tomorrow…..how it works….enjoy this exact moment……
im disappointed, because, i recently met two” GREAT” men……said all the right things, we were going to learn golf together..etc etc etc……great family people…couldnt wait for me to meet their family and them to meet mine…….seemed too goo to be true…..i thought i was noticing red flags and just put them aside to gather more data…….it was true…..at least this time i stopped before anything got started and save pain….its amazing how deft these guys are at their skill…..im so happy for tgis site and the constant reminder of be wary of red flags……
even though i can stop before getting involved with their phony bs, it is still a bit painful with disappointment to find the illusion is ever present, but just an illusion…..oh well, i get my hopes up each time and am let down…….but still that disappointment is fleeting…whereas th pain of the sociopath lingers far too long……terri
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Saturday, 16 August 2008 @ 9:12am
OxDrover says:
NWV: Your advice to Henry is right on! He is Amazing. If you go back just a couple of months and read his posts and then read the ones NOW you see he has done this in “record time” LOVE FRAUD GOLD METAL, NEW WORLD RECORD!!!! A little Olympic joke there! LOL
Also NWV: GOOD FOR YOU!!! Spotting the RED FLAGS is wonderful. You may be a bit disappointed, but you HONOR THOSE BABIES! It will keep you safe!
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Saturday, 16 August 2008 @ 1:37pm
newworld view says:
tks oxy…and i just watched phelps in the olympics AGAIN and yes henry/steve your working towards the gold lol
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Saturday, 16 August 2008 @ 10:37pm
henry says:
oxy – nwv Are you giving me the gold metal so I will move on? lol I know I have come along way in a few month’s. But just like most of you here I have a long way to go. Oxy I did no contact with my mother five years ago. Before I even knew about Narcissit. Except for a 3 month period last summer when I got her out of horrible living condition’s after she had been in a flood. I am at peace with my decision to have no contact with her. My life is so much better havin NC. I will get there with Cluster B. The phychiatrist I saw the other day changed my medication’s. I think the Zoloft was keeping me numbed. I agree with you, our chances of meeting Mr. Wonderful are slim. I am really not focused on wanting to meet someone. I just want to get past this and focus on just being me. (M) is losing hold on me and with each day I am more aware that he was more than an illusion he was just down right evil…
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Saturday, 16 August 2008 @ 11:47pm
OxDrover says:
Henry, I think the trick as far as “avoiding bad relationships” for us is that when we keep thinking that a ‘RELATIONSHIP” will make us COMPLETE, HAPPY, FULFILLED, etc. we are still NEEDY–I think we need to be complete and happy and fulfilled BY OURSELVES, and then find someone to SHARE that COMPLETENESS, HAPPINESS AND BEING FULFILLED.
At the time I married my late husband, I was almost 40, and divorced several years, but I was HAPPY, COMPLETE and FULFILLED AS I WAS—I was NOT needy. He was not needy. WE COMPLIMETED each other’s happinesses, we didn’t PROVIDE IT. If that makes any sense.
When I dated the P-XBF, I was NOT HAPPY, NOT COMPLETE, AND NOT FULFILLED. I was wounded, vulnerable, and miserable after the loss of my husband, I was grieving. He came into my life and made me “forget about those things” for a time, but it was not in a positive way at all. Even if he had been a good man (fat chance) it was TOO soon for me to have another partner as I had not done grieving over my losses. It might have worked if he had been a good man, but not likely even then as I still had issues to work out.
NWV—I remember Mark Spitz’s Olympic records, and was pleased to see Mike Phelps’–it will probably be a long time before another one tops Phelps’ records. 7 new world records and 1 olympic record as well. I loved the guy from Trinidad that set the new 100 meter record run, 9.69, but he didn’t even “run” the last 20 yards and still won by a “mile”—-amazing feats! As silly as it may sound, though, I have seen just as much talent, effort and courage here on LF as I saw on the Olympics–Herculean efforts to “get back in the race” after falls, injuries and “bad luck.” I think everyone here deserves 10 Gold Medals!
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Sunday, 17 August 2008 @ 1:53pm
OxDrover says:
PS Henry:
I am glad you went to the Psychiatrist, and that he/she changed your medication. Psychoactive medication is such a SPECIALTY that I always advise people to go to a psychiatrist rather than their family doctor. Many times a family doctor may prescribe an antidepressant or other medication but not really be “up on” all of the different things that each one does. Also, sometimes when people are prescribed an antidepressent, especially if they are VERY deeply depressed, and not closely monitored, they will start to get better, but in the process, get enough energy to commit suicide. This happens rarely, but is something that does happen. A former foster child of mine was given antidepressant medication by his family doctor and did commit suicide and I think that this is what happened to him.
When I was in family practice, I never gave any antidepressant medications without the person also had weekly therapy to watch for any tendency for suicide, and I never gave treatement for bi-polar etc in family practice.
I now only see my psych doc about 3-4 times a year to do “med checks” but I’ve been on the same dose for two years and doing fairly well except for the “chaos” and that was external events not my medication dose that caused problems. So even if my insurance didn’t pay for my visits, it wouldn’t be too expensive if I had to pay for it out of my pocket. I know expenses can be a problem with some insurances though, or no insurance. I’m really glad, Henry that you are doing things “by the book” and taking GOOD care of yourself. Sometimes when we ARE depressed, we don’t have the energy to take care of ourselves and it becomes a “hamster wheel” that we are running on, GETTING NO WHERE. I think the fact that you are taking care of YOU is why you have won “LF Olympic Gold!” ((((BIG HUG)))))
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Sunday, 17 August 2008 @ 2:03pm
Taken for a ride says:
If it looks to good to be true it is ? and after reading all the stories and info on this site i am thankful that Donna put this whole thing together, i pray i never meet another person like her again.