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Medication used to treat sociopathy/psychopathy

Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 9:42am • My Weblog

It turns out that Sandy Brown, M.A. is quite correct in stating that any talk of treatment of sociopathy makes people (particularly women) reluctant to give up on a dangerous relationship. We received a note this week from a woman asking for more info about treatment and wanting to know if there was any hope for her man. He was the only man she had ever loved and she was actually still grappling with the meaning of his diagnosis.

This week, I will discuss medications that can be used to treat sociopathy. But before I do I want to make it clear that I encourage people to break away from sociopaths. Remember that the sociopath’s doctor and therapist will want you to stay with the sociopath to assist in the treatment. Sociopaths “do better” with treatment and when they stay married. So let me explain what “do better” means. Also this discussion will help you if you are still grappling with the meaning of your sociopath’s diagnosis.

One of the ways to assess sociopathy is with the Psychopathy Check List-Revised, developed by Dr. Robert Hare (PCL-R). The PCL-R is a 20 item psychological evaluation that professionals with training complete on a person using an interview and a review of criminal/ psychiatric records. When someone scores above 30 on the PCL-R that person is “a psychopath.” Most people who psychiatrists would consider “sociopaths” score above 20 on the PCL-R.

Researchers have used the PCL-R to evaluate large numbers of people. They have found that some items of the 20 item test are correlated with each other. That means that say a person who scores high on item 1 is also likely to score high on items 2, 4, 5, but not necessarily item 20. On the basis of these item correlations, researchers have grouped the items into two “factors” each having two “facets.” I will use these factors and facets to discuss with you what aspects may respond to medication. Two items of the PCL-R do not belong to either Factor 1 or 2. These are Item 11, Sexual Promiscuity and Item 17, Many short term marital relationships. These items stay part of the PCL-R because they are so integral to psychopathy as you already know!

Factor 1 Interpersonal/Affective	Factor 2 Lifestyle/Criminality
Facet 1 Interpersonal Symptoms	Facet 3 Lifestyle
1. Glibness/superficial charm 2. Grandiose sense of self worth 4. Pathological Lying 5. Conning/manipulative	3. Need for Stimulation 9. Parasitic Lifestyle 13. Lack of realistic long term goals 14. Impulsivity 15. Irresponsible Behavior
Facet 2 Affective (emotional) symptoms	Facet 4 Criminal Behavior
6. Lack of Remorse/Guilt 7. Shallow Affect 8. Callous/Lack of Empathy 16. Failure to accept responsibility for actions	10. Poor behavior controls 12. Early Behavior Problems 18. Juvenile Delinquency 19. Revocation of conditional release 20. Criminal versatility

Look at the Table above and consider that you are interested in the two items that are not part of either factor and Factor 1. These are the symptoms that are most concerning to family members. The criminal justice system and professionals are most interested in Factor 2.

Look at the list again and imagine a person with a great deal of energy either because he or she is manic or because he or she is on speed. In that case Items 1, 2, 5, 3, 13, 14, 15, 10, 19, 20 and 11 would be most affected. In fact this is why there is overlap between bipolar disorder and psychopathy.

Anything that increases a sociopath’s energy level makes him or her worse. Anything that reduces his or her drive leads to “improvement.” That is why, medications for mania like lithium, anticonvulsants and antipsychotic drugs have been used “successfully” to treat sociopathy. In this case success is defined in terms of fewer arrests and aggressive acts.

Also look at the list and notice that Items 3, 14 , 15, 10, 19 and 11 are related to poor impulse control. These symptoms may respond to antidepressants that work on the serotonin system. Defects in the serotonin system are thought to underlie impulsivity. The problem is that many people become manic when they take antidepressants so these can also make a sociopath worse.

Okay, now see what was left off the list, and you will conclude with me that medication will not turn your sociopath into someone you want to spend your life with. Many people say that the sociopath’s energy and spontaneity are what they find attractive. If that is the case for you, then medication which reduces a sociopath’s energy level will make him or her less attractive to you. All the “fun” part of the sociopath may disappear, leaving you with a boring parasite.

Nothing will make a sociopath loving and empathetic or build a conscience. A loving person takes care of his/her family, is trustworthy and doesn’t lie. Medication cannot make a person loving; it can only reduce dangerousness. Focus on the use of the term reduce, as I did not say eliminate dangerousness. In a hypothetical research study, a 50% reduction in the battering of family members and a 50% reduction in arrests would be considered “improvement.” That does not mean sociopaths are turned into people you want to share your life with.

So why do I even discuss treatment? Only to keep you informed and for those who for whatever reason choose to share life with a sociopath.

Next week psychotherapy for sociopathy.

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written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •

lesley says:

VERY interesting. Thank you so much for this. It’s a good reminder, one to read again and again. I just wish this list, factor 1, didn’t call to mind most politicians so strongly. “A loving person takes care of his/her family”–makes me think of how, when John McCain’s first wife was in a horrible car accident, he threw her over and took up with a much younger heiress. And let’s not even discuss Elliot Spitzer.

(Report abusive comment)

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:21pm

gillian says:

The hardest thing is giving up that hope. Yesterday I met with my one therapist who has never met or seen my husband (my other therapist has; so I don’t have to convince her that we were, or appeared to be anyway, as she put it, “a great couple”).

Anyway, the therapist yesterday, having heard over the past year the entire horror story of what my husband has done, and never having experienced or witnessed in any way his “love” herself, has apparently had a hard time understanding why I can’t just get on with my life and why I’m having a hard time letting the S go. I told her how my other therapist has had me working, via imagery, on letting the S go (taking the hook out of my heart) and how, in that process, I realized I did not want–and/or was not quite ready–to let go of him completely.

When I told her this, the therapist yesterday just looked at me quizzically and said, “Why *wouldn’t* you want to let him go?” (because to her this solution seems obvious).

Tears came to my eyes and as much as I hated to admit it, I said, “Because I don’t want to lose that connection; I loved him; I completely believed in this man.”

And I think she finally realized how much I did love him. Although to her he sounds completely unlovable, to me, the deception was complete and the memory is so vivid of how much I loved him and how much I believed he loved me.

It’s like looking at a photograph, or thinking back on any memory for that matter. No matter how many years go by, some memories are so intense, it’s as if you can reach out and touch them. Part of you asks, “Did this really happen? Was there really a time?” but another part of you can practically step right into the memory.

And I think that’s why it is hard. So painful. To lose someone you love and who is still alive is so difficult. The one we love don’t want us, we want what we had, we can’t have it, we want it, it is real, it seemed real, we can reach out and touch it is so real and we are so astonished that anyone could deceive us so cruelly–was none of it real?–just so they could pursue their evil, selfish desires.

And no amount of calming medication or serotonin adjustment will negate that dark place that exists within the sociopath. Hard as it is to let go, and I’m still hanging on to my S by a few slender threads, it is our only hope. Then we can move forward, toward love and light, acknowledging the pain and grieving are as real and piercing as if we lost our loved one to death.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:39pm

holywatersalt says:

I find these studies interesting abstracty–BUT again…I do not know why these posting are here. Men and women just leaving and still entrenched with psychos do not need any tips on helping psychos.

In this pst it states psychos do better when they remain married…most women and men want a reason to hang on…and this gives it to them.
Yes, with drugs psycho are dull conscienceless lumps….but “theire there” and t”their mine” that’s the way a victim’s mind works.

I would really reconsider posting these scientific findings.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:40pm

correction: “the one we love DOESN’T want us,”

i would have just let it be, but it sounded so awful with “don’t”

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:42pm

OxDrover says:

My personal opinion is that to be in any higher level political position the person would almost have to be a Narcissist of at least a lower level, but a psychopath who had plenty of charm (when they wanted to use it) like Elliot Spritzer are those that advance to “higher” places in politics.

Dr. Leedom also pointed out in a previous post that people with “power” even if they weren’t Ns or Ps to start with sometimes start to act like Ns or Ps.

I am totally in agreement that “success” in treatment of Ps doesn’t produce a “viable human with a conscience” but only a “less dangerous P” and while that may be a benefit to society in keeping them out of prison it certainly wouldn’t make them an “ideal family member” by any stretch of the imagination.

My previous husband was mentally ill, and I would have stayed with him in spite of that because he was not abusive to me, because I loved him. I didn’t have the choice as he left me. Just as if he had been injured in a car wreck and left paralyzed I would have stayed with him. I would have continued to love him.

Psychopathic abuse, and I don’t know of any that aren’t abusers in one form or another to those that are “nearest and dearest” to them, is another ball of string. There comes a point that no matter how much you love a person and how much you would “sacrifice” your own needs for that person, that the “price” is “too high to pay.”

I loved my P-son as much as any mother could love her own child, but when it finally became clear to me that my son was a psychopath, that nothing I could do for him would change that, and if I kept interfacing with him that it would lead to my own death, I had to quit risking my own life and sanity in order to live, much less live a good and healthy life.

I had held on to the MALIGNANT HOPE that he could at least “go straight” when he got out, that the words he had said might actually be true, that he had gained some insight into his behavior, etc etc. all delusions on my part because I wanted so badly for them to be true. When I quit listening to his WORDS and started observing his ACTIONS I saw the truth.

The Trojan Horse psychopath was also bi-polar and the bi-polar treatment helped stabilize his behavior enough that he could “function” in a social setting, it did nothing for his impulse control or his evil intentions to get what he wanted at any price. Incarceration is no deterrent to their grandiose dreams of “the big score” it is only viewed as a temporary set back, an inconvenience. They still view themselves as “successes” and only temporarily inconvenienced by the betrayal of others.

If more states would enact laws, in my opinions, with the “three (felony) strikes and you are out” laws, so that these habitual criminals (mostly all Ps) are incarcerated for life without parole, at least the streets would be safer for the rest of us. I think something like 70% of the violent crime is committed by the 20% of criminals who are scored 30 on the PCL-R. The people who just “score high” but don’t go over 30 I would estimate cause a tremendous amount of other kinds of damage in society as well. Maybe the 3-strikes laws would catch an incarcerate a few of them as well.

While I would like to see medicine find a treatment that worked, and would like to see research continue, I think in the meantime, the criminal justice system is the best avenue we have to get the really dangerous ones like my son and the Trojan Horse P off the street and keep them off the street.

In the meantime, it behooves the rest of us to protect ourselves from the less violent, but still disruptive and harmful ones that are still out there, by learning about the red flags, disseminating this knowledge as broadly as possible, and work on healing our own wounds.

Thank you Dr. Leedom for another great piece of information to add to the arsenal.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:49pm

newworld view says:

excellent points…i wonder if we took the dollars out of politicking and hence the attractiveness to the n/p s/ of the world we might provide/return to a more conscious America….yes i am aware that many of our forefather leaders may have been as well…..but it seems today that we have more of an acceptance of this than in “the olden days”

yes i have lost my best friend because power can corrupt and make n/p/s type behavior out of someone who doesnt stay humble in view of newfound power……and i hired her for the power role because i felt she wouldnt let it run away with her….oh well many other variable at play here as well…..guess the environment helped to nurture her

i also feel that current treatment cant make them more human…just less inhumane

gillian:
“And no amount of calming medication or serotonin adjustment will negate that dark place that exists within the sociopath”

no kiddint, it wont fix them or us……what a bummer….if only……

i understand this post was in answer to anothers quest for info….i also understand the posters DO NOT advocate staying with such a disordered person

such a bummer on such a beautiful saturday that i am finding solace in such information…………..i wish i was snorkeling ciao for now

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 2:36pm

alohatraveler says:

HolyWaterSalt,

With all due respect to Dr. Leedom, I am with you on your opinion. I think these posts are dangerous for people that are “just out.”

People only hear what they want to hear. Somewhere out there is a person who is thinking maybe they could stay with the Sociopath if he was just a little less abusive.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 3:28pm

It seems we were all posting almost at the same time, I was composing my post (after the first post) and when I happened to go back I see that several came in “ahead” of mine which I thought was the second. Some good points in those that I hadn’t read when I posted mine.

It IS I think worse to love a loved one to psychopathic behavior than to death. In Death you know that they didn’t “purposely” quit loving you and die, and you know it is FINAL, that no amount of wanting, or doing anything else will revive them, bring them back to life and you go through the grief process and heal. You get to where you can think about the good times, and not dwell on their loss. I know that even with the terrible, sudden and horrible way I lost my husband, I think it was easier than the way I “lost” my son. I KNEW FOR A FACT my husband LOVED me. I knew for a FACT finally at least, that my son DID NOT ONLY NOT LOVE ME, HE HATED ME, he WANTED ME DEAD so he could have what I had worked for and he felt he deserved to have.

Wow! What a difference in the RESPONSES to my love. One person I lost had loved me back, and one person I lost had wanted to kill me.

I have watched throughout my career families with their loved on on a ventilator, being artifically maintained in that space between “life” and “death” and holding on to malignant hope that by some miracle their loved one will LIVE AGAIN. Will wake up and love them back. I have seen the grief that those families experienced, hoping against hope that some miracle will bring their loved one back to them.

I don’t know exactly how they must have felt, but I think I have some idea because while my psychopathic son was not on a MACHINE holding him between life and death, I was using delusion, my delusion, to keep on hoping that something, some miracle, some act of God, some prayer would be answered and the lovely boy that I loved, had nurtured would reappear in the body of this MAN that I didn’t know. This stranger. This man who could “talk repentence”—but I finally saw, that without a doubt the “boy” I loved would not return to the body of the “man” who was so EVIL.

NO CONTACT was my way of “pulling the plug” on the loved one that I knew was NO MORE, was NOT INSIDE that Body on “emotional life support” that I had kept on maintaining at great cost to myself, just as those families at the hospital kept on hoping against hope that their loved one, long brain dead, would wake up and return to them.

I rememeber the day my husband died, when I got to the hospital where they had taken him, I knew he could not live, but yet the physician there held out HOPE TO ME. I remember being so ANGRY at that physician for holding out a hope to me that I KNEW WAS UNREALISTIC, and I kept thinking, what if I didn’t KNOW the truth, how would I have suffered more because the physician didn’t have the courtesy or guts, or compassion to be “straight forward” and say to me “Your husband is too badly burned to live, but we will keep him comfortable, I am so sorry.”

I asked the doctor “Why are you transferring him 200 miles to another burn center?” He looked at me like I was crazy and said “Because it is the best burn center in the nation” and I said again “WHY? He’s too badly burned to live, I am an APN,I was there at the crash. He inhaled the flames he can’t live with third degree burns over his entire body”

All my career it seems that I fought against phsyicians who held out unreasonable HOPE to patients, which increased the suffering of both family and patient in HOPELESS situations, and this man holding out “hope” to me when there was none to this day makes me angry. But not for myself, as I was at least informed, but for the patients and families he will treat in the future.

Yet, I had done the same thing as that physician, holding out HOPE TO MYSELF over my son. Maybe it is myself I am angry at over this malignant hope, this delusional hope that I too held out.

One of our “family jokes” is the ELEVENTH COMMANDMENT, you know, just like the other ten commandments given by God, but violated more often and with worse results–

“Thou shalt not fool thy self.”

I think I have violated the “eleventh commandment” as much as anyone, and more frequently. Realizing this and stopping my “sinning” in this aspect has been difficult for me.

I had no problem in recognizing that my husband was going to die, and that there was nothing I could do to prevent it. I didn’t accept the physician’s unrealistic offer of “treatment” for something that there was NO treatment for except to keep the patient comfortable and to let God heal them with death. But I did keep up my OWN malignant optimisim and my mantra “where there’s life there’s hope” which is NOT TRUE. There is no more chance for my son, though his body is breathing, to come back to me “whole” (with a conscience) than there was for my husband to get up off the gurney and run into my arms.

But because we don’t have a “ritual” like a memorial service for those that are “lost” but not dead—unless it happens to be a divorce–maybe that is a ritual for their loss—but not having a “ceremony” that marks the total loss may be one of the things that keeps it gnawing at our hearts.

I did my own little “memorial service” for my P-son, the chld that I loved, and laid him to rest, covered the memory with the soil. The MAN that is inside what used to be the body of my little boy is a stranger to me. Just like I had “donated” the organs to someone else after my son died. The heart beating inside another’s body, or the kidney, or the lungs, they are NOT the chld I loved, only pieces of tissue. And if I had literally donated his organs, the person who had his heart might not be a good person, or the person who got his eyes might not be a nice person, etc. so just the “tissue” being there would not make those people my “son”—any more than a “total body” donation, as in this case makes that criminal, that EVIL psychopath “my son.” My son is dead. The relationship is dead. I can’t bring back my husband, I can’t bring back the little boy, but I CAN MOVE FORWARD with the rest of my life.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 3:31pm

EnnLondon says:

I think this is another brilliant piece of information – you can’t miss the message if you read it all.

I suppose the problem is that the people who are ‘just out’ might not read every posting and so the title of this might convince them more if it was ‘Why Treatment Doesn’t Make the Sociopath a Better Partner.’ (Though I must say that when I was ‘just out’ I read EVERY inch of EVERY posting EVERYWHERE!)

All I know is that I found this bit:

‘Many people say that the sociopath’s energy and spontaneity are what they find attractive. If that is the case for you, then medication which reduces a sociopath’s energy level will make him or her less attractive to you. All the “fun” part of the sociopath may disappear, leaving you with a boring parasite.’

…really illustrative.

I’m still at the stage (though well past my own sociopath) where I find this whole subject massively interesting and this has answered a question I’ve wondered about for some time.

This also makes me think of why my sociopathic ex blamed Prozac for his terrible behaviour – it DID just ‘enhance’ factors 3, 14 , 15, 10, 19 (poor impulse control). When he wasn’t on it he was slightly better at concealing his true nature. Which to him will have been the important bit – the bit that stopped things unravelling for him.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 6:25pm

kat_o_nine_tales says:

Someone was saying.. I think it was Wini.. that the only hope for a real sociopath is with God. I think this is true to an extent. IF, and it’s a big IF, the person really turns to God and fights his old natural inclinations, I think he or she could change. But too many times they end up just using the church and new group of friends as yet another support system for their abusive ways.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 7:58pm

EnnLondon,

I guess I agree with boths sides. You can’t miss the message if you read the whole thing yet people look for the message they want to hear.

Currently, I am reading The Art of Seduction by Robert Greene. I don’t remember if it was reviewed here but it has been recommended several times. I finally picked it up and though it is written more as a manual on how to seduce someone, psychologically, rather than as a book about psychopaths and sociopaths, it is still a great tool for understanding ourselves and how we got sucked down the black hole.

There is a section describing different kinds of victims as well and I surely see myself described there for sure.

Anyway, the above article will not induce any false hope for me as I am too far down the road. I hope that no one will “read” between the lines a message that is not there… which is… hey.. maybe I can get help for my S and then he will be the nice guy he promises he is… NOT NOT NOT!

)

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 9:23pm

Glinda says:

The xs fits 19 of the 20. The only anomoly is #17- many short marital relationships… we were together/married for 7 and his previous marriage lasted about 7yrs. Of course only the WIFE half recognized the marriage either time… and I understand he was engaged a few times between when I threw him out and when we became divorced/he went to prison. He of course, had many gf’s and perhaps even fiancee’s during our marriage… so maybe the many short marital relationships does apply, just not in the traditional sense?

I think there is one drug that could “fix” the xs: sodium pentobarbital. But it’s probably not terribly charitable of me to suggest it.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 9:35pm

Lib says:

Dr. Leedom and All:

I am not even “out ” yet and I have found this very interesting and helpful. I knew “my” S was a player when I met him, a year before I became intimate with him. Six months into that, I knew something was not right with the guy I had fell for and through my own research discovered he was an S. Knowledge is power and the more we have, no matter how it pulls on our emotions, is good for the long haul. As EnnLondon stated, this blog was really illustrative. It made me wonder what “my” S would be like if he were drugged. I fell in love with some of these sociopathic traits.

“My” S. knows something is wrong with him and wants his life to be different. I don’t beleive his ego and/or anger would ever accept the fact that he could be a N/S/P though. So… I really look forwrd to the next blog by Dr. Leedom.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 10:53pm

In the beginning I was in a mode to understand and ‘help.” If he knew…

maybe… he’d change. Getting over their lies, the disbelief and accepting that “unreality” is reality with a psychopath is monumental. I have a background in research and I had read this sort of stuff before….and unless you can give them a heart, sort of like the lesson from Wizard of Oz,
they don’t change.

This “therapy” only works if they are institutionalized and/or enjoy the drugs, if they don’t like the drugs ..forget it. And my God, why should any of us care? Really? This doesn’t change them, and is not in our domain at all…this stuff is for mental institutions and correctional facilities.

Life is so much more than a relationship with a psychopath in a stupor.
Lib….I hope you go NO Contact. You need to be thinking about you- really, your life is in danger.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:01pm

Gillian:

Does NC mean losing all connection? You loved your husband very much, and as you stated about the photographs, being intense memorys you can almost touch, why do you have to get rid of all “emotional” connections. I may be totally wrong, but at this point for me, I want to move myself from the S, get back to who I was when I was healthy, but I don’t feel the need to get rid of all connection. I never want to forget this experience, because I never want to find myself in this place again.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:08pm

Lib-

The goal is no contact …meaning email, text mess. , phone, in-person or through other people , some call that contact via proxy.

And I suspect if you do got no contact, one day you will not want any mementos, and that will be a very good day.

So what are doing to get yourself out of this abusive relationship?

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:15pm

I will have no contact.

I don’t beleive my life is in danger. My heart aches, my home and children have been neglected, but my children and I will be okay eventually.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:16pm

I have kept mementos of good and bad in my life. It is all part of my life.

I had NC for aprox. three months last fall and then answered one of his calls and blew it. I know that I have to go longer or forever. I have shed no tears this time, I know that he will not change, I know I want a mutually loving, caring, partner. This is what I am doing for now.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:27pm

Lib,

I want to get rid of all emotional connection to my S because I think he is evil, and I don’t want to have any evil in my life.

The more I let go of him, the freer I feel. I do not want his negative energy infecting my life anymore. He appeared to be a wonderful man, but he was not, and I grieve for the loss of that illusion. I hate like crazy that it was only an illusion, but it was, and that’s all it ever could be. He’s tried to convince me he wants to change, he has changed, he is changing (he recently told me he’s had a “white light” experience), but that’s all part of the illusion too. It’s ALL manipulation.

That’s not to say that I’ll ever forget him. How could I? However I do look forward to a time when I no longer wonder where he is, who he is with, or what he is doing. When I no longer wonder because I no longer care.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 3:17am

My first husband I will never stop wondering what he is up to. He’s the really dangerous kind of S, and like a rattlesnake, I want to keep half an eye on him to make sure he’s not sneaking into my garage or something. But I did go NC for my own sanity, even though I’ve given up 12 years of child support.

This is not always possible, though, if you have kids. The important thing is not to let him worm his way back into your life, your wallet, your self-esteem, etc.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 8:06am

tryingtorecover says:

I haven’t posted a comment in a long time. I’ve been trying to just live my life. I’ve been doing well, but i found out yesterday my ex and the girlfriend moved to my small town. I haven’t had to worry about running into them because they were out of state at first, then 3 months ago they moved an hour away, and now 5 minutes away. My son came home yesterday from his visit with his dad and asked if I was sitting down. He told him he moved last week.(could be longer the last med. bill I sent was returned)

Everything is coming back. All the pain , just everything. My son recently called him on some lies he told him and then my ex called my cell 12 times in a row. I did not answer. It bothered me while my phone was ringing, but the next day I was ok. I’ve been getting stronger.

I keep asking myself, why? I know the answer-he’s a sociopath. His answer will be he wants to be by his son. (so far he saw him more when he lived out of state) But, why not live in the next town where they would be going to a different grocery store, a different movie store, a different everything. Why? I don’t know why it keeps going through my head. I know the answer. I have to stop writing. I haven’t felt like this in months.

I’m in the process of finding a lawyer to take him to court for enforcement issues so he’s going to be even more upset with me in the near future.

If anyone has suggestions how to handle running into them, please share them with me.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 8:50am

Beverly says:

Dear Tryingtorecover. Welcome back, I do remember you from some time back and glad to hear that things have been well for you. I live in a smallish town too and had the same problem, although we do not have a child together. At first I tried to regulate when I went into town, avoiding times when he might not be at work or just going to certain parts of town. In the end, i couldnt keep track of his working rota and I thought I cant pussy foot around him and give him that power. So I just go about my business as though he doesnt exist. I have seen him and was extremely near to him, but now I just ignore him and he ignores me and that is fine.

Problem is, when your son is visiting, he is sure to be a conduit for information either way. Presumably, if he has a girlfriend he will not be causing you emotional upheavel – so, is it the embarrassment of seeing him with his girlfriend?.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 10:39am

I guess what I meant when I said I don’t want to get rid of all emotional connection is that I don’t want to feel this way again, but I don’t want to forget how it feels. I too really look forward to the time when I am not wondering where he is and who he is with. I do want to be free of him and his negative energy.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 12:32pm

henry says:

Gillian I hear ya loud and clear about the emotional connection and negative energy. Anything and everything that triggered a reaction in me, I got rid of, I even dug up the lillies he helped me plant. He collected wind chimes, they are now in the bottom of the lake. All I have left is his cat. I can’t throw her away, I love animal’s but I so wish I could find the cat a good home. Like you I will never forget him. And I look forward to not thinking about him or wondering if he will show up. I seriously doubt I will ever see him again. I am not bitter or angry, but just still a little crazy about the illusion thing. And I can say his memory is fading, ever so slowly.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 12:50pm

Wow Henry, even the cat?

I am not near the point that I can throw anything into the lake. Well, he has never given me much to throw away. What I hold onto now is a list of his contacts from an old phone and email address.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:24pm

Lib.. Throw that phone in the lake. It has negative energy that is holding on to you.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:32pm

Hiya Dear Henry. How you doing? I got rid of nearly everything, even the pillows he put his head on. I have one photo left and a piece of electrical equipment. It also took a while for that ‘toxic feeling’ to leave my house.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:41pm

Hi Beverly I am doing good, thank you. I have heard of (Sharman’s) not sure if i spelled it right. But they come to your home and light ensence and walk through your house and cleanse it of bad karma and negative energy left by evil people. Have you ever heard of this? Good to see you Bev

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:45pm

Yes, Henry, I do know about it, I did a course on it myself – I did a course on space clearing. Mainly his toxic essence was in my hall, but opening the windows clears the energy too.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:53pm

Beverly, thanks for responding. The girlfriend is the same one he cheated with. The thought of seeing them together just brings back everything. I thought I had come through most of the pain , but here it is again. I guess I would already have dealt with it if I hadn’t moved home one month after he moved out. My son has also not re-met the gf and does not want to.( we both met her once when we ran into her in a parking lot and my ex pretended not to even remember her first name when he introduced us to her -I so bought the just friends thing) His dad has tried to trick him a couple of times into meeting her, so I think him moving into town is partially to force that issue. I don’t know anymore I just want to be done with it, but that’s not happening.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:01pm

Dear Tryingtorecover. Yes it is very difficult when they live in the same proximity, its like having to be reminded of the pain constantly. I have even tried putting my place for sale in order to move to another part of the UK, which is not to get away from him, as I had planned to do that, but that is an element of it. But we have done nothing wrong, why should we feel like an outcast in our own communities. This is one of the unpleasant issues that we dont realise will come up, when breaking up with someone with PDs. I am determined to keep my dignity, no matter what he has said to people that we mutually knew in local bars, I know what the real truth is.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:08pm

Having been a t one time a professional photographer, I have tons of photographs–lots framed and on the walls, sitting on desks, etc. I went through them and took out all the ones that reminded me of my P-son after abot 10 or 12 years old, all the teenaged years, etc. when he was so negative.

I took all the beautiful photographs I had taken of my mother and put them away. I took most of the ones of X-BF and did the same though there are a couple of them which were taken on a vacation where he was in a group shot I kept because I wanted the other people’s photos in the group.

I put letters and cards either away in boxes in deep storage or threw them away. I actually kept the huge boxes of 20 years of letters from my P-son, but they are in storage. I haven’t reread any of them except the most recent and they are also in storage now too.

I gave away certain gifts that my mother had given me to people who would appreciate them. My mom was after her retirement one of the award winning quilters here in our state, and had won many best of STATE SHOWS, and she had given me quilts from those, and I gave them away because Id didn’t want them any more to remind me of her every time I went to bed.

My whole farm had a misma of sorts seeming to hang over it like a black pall for a while, when the Trojan Horse P was here, but since his arrest a year ago and since I have been home that seems to have lessened and the feeling of comfort from this place is coming back.

No, you never “forget” but for me, reminders of them don’t do anything to make me feel “better” so I just get rid of them or put them away where I will not have to see them daily or even weekly.

I can understand Henry digging up the lilies.

As far as “running into” them in town, the only time I have “run into” the Ps was years and years ago I ran into my biological father on the street, and I shook for days. Then a few months ago I ran into the X-BF unexpectedly in MY territory (400 miles from his home) when I went to the local auction on Saturday night that I frequently go to, and lo and behold! He was there! The last place in the world I expected to see him. It unnerved me I think more because it was so unexpected–I cut him the cold shoulder and didn’t respond when he tried to “be friendly”—I had run into him once before at a living history event, but I had expected to see him there and it didn’t upset me. I think the “suprise” part was the worst of the “bumping into” them.

In the future, I think should I run into any of them I will not be so bothered or suprised. Sooner or later I will probably run into my mother in a store somewhere, but if it happens I will just “nod” and move on. Not make a nasty public scene, but not stand and chat for sure.

Tryingtorecover, I am sorry for both you and your son that your X has moved back to your town, but I think you should be proud of your son for calling your X on the lies. It shows to me that your son is not falling under the “spell” of the FOG put off by his father. Good for you for not answering the telephone too. You are a strong woman and have taken back your POWER. You are not letting the P control you, and you know I thinkk that is the WORST punishment that we can inflict on them, it makes them furious that they can’t get a response out of us. The letters and calls to others that my P son has made over the last year since he is not getting either money or letters from us show that my son is actually SUFFERING from the frustration of not being able to con us, not to get a response. He is like a roast on a spit, turning over the fire of NO CONTACT, and the heat is cooking his backside. LOL You know that isn’t a great deal of satisfaction but it is something that “money can’t buy” it is JUSTICE. It is the only way we can “inflict pain” on them. The pain they experience when they have NO CONTROL over us. I think that is the worst “emotional pain” that they can have.

Congratulations! Tryingtorecover! You and your son scored a direct hit!

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:19pm

Beverly, my biggest fear I think about running into them is not keeping my dignity. Either turning white and going the other way or starting to cry and seeing his smug satisfaction. I just got off the phone with a friend and she said to walk right up to them and shake her hand and thank her because my life is so much better now. She said just watch their chins drop. It’s a nice fantasy, but i don’t think I could pull that off – at least not yet. I also was going to go to the grocery store when they should be at work, but I have come so far in taking back my life that i can’t do that. I stopped there today and it felt good.

Thanks Oxdrover and I truly love all your analogies.(roast on a spit) I am very proud of my son. Thank you for putting it the way you did about the spell and fog. It helps. I know my son is aware, but I always have a fear he’ll get sucked in. Hearing it that way – I know my son is not in the fog now and I can’t see him ever being in the fog. I did not raise him like that, for the most part. I did smooth things over with his dad in the past before I found out the truth. I told him his dad was truly sorry about something when my “smarter than me son” didn’t believe him. I was raised to be in the fog and when I tried to break out of it as a kid my mom blamed me. Even when I was engaged to my ex and I emerged from the fog on one occasion my mom defended him and gave me a lecture in front of him. He had “worked late” again and you know you have to be understanding when a guy is working so hard to put food on the table. I agree if he’s really working. I couldn’t put my finger on it, but my gut said there was something wrong. It didn’t add up that he was working because he never had anything to show for it.

I agree not having control over us is the worst and only punishment you can inflict on them. The only problem is now he needs to gain control again – which means let the games begin. I will be strong. I haven’t come this far to let him win his sick game.

This is such a great place to be able to come. When I felt alone in the beginning it was here. Now well into the process and having a setback it’s here. To everyone, thank you.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 5:42pm

Dear Tryingtorecover,

You know, having your son not fall for the gaslighting and the FOG is so reassuring, because so many times they PLAY the kid like a good fiddle, to get back at you.

I am so happy and thankful that your son isn’t falling for that, and since he has seen the lies and deception, etc. he is not, in my opinion, likely to fall in the future—”forewarned is forearmed” and when you don’t trust someone it is difficult for them to EARN that trust, and especially for a P so if he sees through it now (you didn’t say how old he was) he is not in my opinion likely to be sucked by in because the P can’t keep up a good front for too long at a time. Besides, kids are NOT stupid, they I think can see through the words and look at the actions more than we adults can because we have trained ourselves to listen to the words and not the body language and the actions so much. People SPEAK more with body than mouth and are much more honest with their actions than their words. Good KID@ AND GOOD FOR YOU FOR RAISING HIM RIGHT!

Although my own adopted son is 31, he has been discvoering recently that some “friends” of ours are taking advantage of his and my good nature. I set some boundaries for these people and distanced my self from them. My son is also seeing for the first time, these people in the TRUE light of how they are not only taking advantage of me (which I have now put a halt to) but would take advantage of him as well. Since he has always idolized these people from his childhood, this was a tough lesson for him. I am so glad that he is “catching on” to this. He is finally getting it that their ‘poor planning does not constitute and emergency on his part, and that he doesn’t have to drop everything to “fix” their self-caused problems.

There are so many lessons for us all, adults and chldren alike, in dealing with these people and there are some very good ones that if we will learn them will benefit us the rest of our lives. I am so glad when I see a young person learn the lessons that I wish I had learned when I was young. I think of all the problems I could have avoided by knowing what I know now about psychopaths. Of course I obviously was a “slow learner” and had to re-take the class until I finally “got it” but it will benefit me the rest of my life. I am just glad though when young people catch on at a much earlier age, because it will save them tremendous grief in this world for the rest of their lives.

Just hearing your good news about your son, and then my son coming in and talking about how he had “finally gotten” it about our “friends” has MADE MY DAY! Baby steps add up to MILES AND MILES.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 6:23pm

OxDrover, my son will be 15 next month. His dad left last year. He is starting to remember things and figure them out. A couple of weeks ago he asked me if I remembered an incident from when he was little. He was riding his bike in the street, which he wasn’t allowed to do, and when I saw him he told me his father said it was OK. I went in and asked Bad Dad if he told him it was OK. He said he didn’t, so I went back outside and my son got in trouble for not only riding in the street, but for lying. I don’t really remember this particular time, but I know stuff like this happened more than once. It’s just so unbelievable to me still the extent of the lying. Something so “everyday life”, so trivial, but he still had to lie about it.

I’m glad you had your day made! You deserve lots of good days!

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 9:01pm

Tryingtorecover, your kid is SMART!! And kids don’t forget that kind of stuff! As long as he never gets to trusting your X he will protect himself. At 15 he has learned a valuable lesson, and at this point maybe you can give him a copy of Robert Hare’s book “without conscience” and let him read it. I think it might be a real eye opener to hiim to see that his dad is not unique and that there is a NAME for the condition.

It is so refershing to me to see a smart kid catch on to the P and not believe them. To see through the FOG. And, it also looks like your son escaped the genetic curse too! That’s good as well. You are a fortunate and blessed lady. Give that boy a big hug for me and tell him that His “auntie Oxy” thinks he is an awesome young man!

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 9:16pm

Thanks Oxy, I’ll tell him!

I’ve been wondering when will it be time to explain the disorder to him. I’ve talked to my counselor and she said she would talk to him if I wanted. She also feels he has a good handle on things. He has also gone to his own counselor and she doesn’t pull any punches with him. She says to him it is what it is. Although she has not named the disorder to him, she talks to him about handling the lying and manipulation.

He still wants to see his dad so far, so I just want to equip him with the tools he needs to handle himself. I also want him to know when to stand up to him and when it’s time to stay quiet. I worry every time he goes with him because when he gets angry he drives extremely aggressively.

I think when the time is right for him to read about the disorder, it will help him to know his dad is not unique.

I just remembered why my counselor told me she would explain the disorder to him. I told her what he calmly and rhetorically asked my mother after talking to him – Why is my dad such an a$$ h*le? I guess that sums it up.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 10:33pm

ally says:

I think the way the P targets the child is the biggest abuse of you of all. As teenagers they are so vulnerable. I was a single parent for a long time before the P came into my life. He was, of course, all of my dreams come true, the icing on the cake plus the cherry on the top! For three months i was the happiest person thinking at last i had found my soul mate. Nothing and no-one can prepare you for the absoulte devastation they cause but when your child is affected that is when they really do the ultimate damage. He was the first man i had allowed to live in my home in 12 years as i trusted him to be with me and my son. He ended up subjecting me to the most horrendous and soul destoying emoitional and verbal abuse. After 6 months i no longer recongised the person looking back at me from the mirror. It happens that fast and they are so good it destroys you. At the time i did not even know what a narcassist/sociopath was. I felt sorry for him, he was always caught up in a cycle of abuse followed by showing me so much love and tenderness, it totally destroys your ability to think, reason and at times even function but when its affects your child thats when you know you have to find the strength and courage form somewhere to stop him. I am so ashamed that my son was witness to me being abused. I had always been strong for him and we had a brilliant close relationship but the P started to poison my sons mind against me. It would start with commnets like ‘yours mums really cruel isn’t she’ when i was out later than expected through work or late back with the shopping. When i went out with a friend one night, which he could never cope with, i would come back to both of them sitting in scilence with accusing looks on their faces because i had actually go and ‘left’ them, and that had made me, in the P’s eyes so horrible and bad. He would side with my son when i was trying to discipline him totally undermining all i was trying to do to make him look the good guy. I came to a head when i would have to ask my son to stay in his room at times if the P was in full blown emotional strop. I would just sit on the end of the sofa shaking, hoping against hope that he would fall into a drunken sleep so i could be allowed to get into the kitchen to get my son something to eat. I found an empty wine bottle in the P’s bag once and he said it must have been my sons. He was always berating him, saying he was lazy, spoilt etc whilst all the time he was jsut being a typical teenager. The damage he did to me was immense but when it comes to your child thats where the damge is really done and thats when you need the strength to get out and away.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 2:51am

Dear Tryingtorecover

You will never ever undertand the lies, as you said they lie about the most bizzare things. My ex-P was going round telling everyone his new girlfriend, now wife, was really rough, covered in tatoos, ugly etc but when i met her the poor woman was none of these things! Why lie about it? You will never be able to make any sense out of the whys because thats part of the illness. It is there to manipulate, control, confuse and dumdfound you until in the end you doubt your own sanity and reasoning and this is exactly the effect they intended to create. Clever aren’t they?

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 3:00am

Tryingtorecover.. you are lucky your son is seeing clearly. My kids are still pretty confused about it all, though I can’t understand why.. seeing as I’m here for them every day of their lives, while their father can’t even be bothered to send them so much as a christmas card for the last 12 years.
BUT… I do not know why it is, but my first husband followed me wherever I moved until his new gf put a stop to it. He said it was to be near the kids, but I found that ludicrous as he never took them for visits. In fact, I liked being far away because it made it easier for the kids to understand why he couldn’t come to see them. It was one of the most painful and upsetting things he did.
Years later after I thought there was no way he could hurt me anymore, he supposedly had his vasectomy reversed and fathered another child.. it was like a sucker punch in the gut. ( I found out later that was all a lie anyway and now there is another little boy out there who wonders why his dad never comes around… sigh)

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:39am

Henry.. you always crack me up. I’ll never be able to go to the lake again without wondering what’s at the bottom of it. It’s a good thing you are gay, or I think we would all be fighting over you.

You are doing a great job with your son, and the therapy will help him get the idea what is going on. My X husband was mentally ill and my divorce pretty “crazy” and I took my kids to therapy for two years afterwards, but they were smaller than yours is now. The therpay didn’t do my P-son any good, but at the time I thought it was doing good as I didn’t have any problem out of him except once (which in RETROSPECT I can see actually was a P-incident) at age 11, but by puberty he was “full blown” P which I “passed off” as a little worse than ususal teenaged years, hoping it would resolve, but it only got worse. By 17 I should have cut the strings then and DUMPED him outright, but I didn’t. I think if your son is that “smart” and seeing things at that age (15) you have dodged the bullet where genetics are concerned. Plus, with him seeing the “light” about his dad’s lying etc. he is just going to be super and do so well! I know it is difficult for a kid to either have a “defective” parent or a “missing” parent.

I was fortunate to have a wonderful step father, but I still wondered about my abscent biological father. I was curious and wanted to know about him, to know him. I wasn’t prepared in any way for what I encountered when I went to live with and work for him. In retrospect, I was a “babe in the woods” for his manipulation and abuse. In the healing afterwards I was also “not informed” and stubling in the dark about what “train” had run over me….and all the things that we encounter now with others not understanding why we are so devestated, was SO TRUE. I tried to tell people and NO ONE believed me—since my second husband Knew my Bio father HE BELIEVED ME for sure. There are others who knew him who also believed me, but it was hard when I was so young and so naive.

So I’ve been on both sides of “that cloud now” and seen it from the child with the abscent parent-P who comes around when you are a teenager, and also the parent of a P who “blossomed” into a “full blown criminal P” by age 17, totally definant and out of control. He is so much like my P-bio father (whom he has never met) that it is SPOOKY. My older son C looks almost identical to my P-bio father (I also physically resemble my P-bio father much more than my mother’s side of the family) but my son C is NOTHING like my P-bio father psychologically or emotionally.

Yea, they spread their genes far and wide and generally don’t stay around to raise the kids, especially the males, but many times also they hang in enough to use the children as weapons to beat the mother over the head with. I feel for mothers who have children by these predators and I sure feel for the chldren who are either abused by visits, or made to “wonder” why no visits. Either way is sure not “ideal.” But of the two, I would prefer an “abscent” P-father for the child’s sake.

Good luck Kat with your children and you too Tryingtorecover. It sounds like you are both doing good jobs and that is all we can hope to do. Being a mother is the best job and the worst job in the world, but at the same time I wouldn’t have it any other way. Losing one child was painful, but the two I have left are the joy of my life!

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:54am

i know this sounds silly,but i cant find an email address to the o magazine or show….the contact us doesnt work….anybody out there can help??….

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:20pm

What is the ‘o’ magazine? Are you talking about Oprah?

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:23pm

Psychiatr Clin North Am. 2006 Sep;29(3):709-24. Psychopathy: a clinical and forensic overview
.Hare RD.
Department of Psychology, University of British Columbia, 2136 West Mall, Vancouver, British Columbia V6T 1Z4, Canada. rhare@interchange.ubc.ca

There is a substantial amount of empirical evidence that psychopathy, as measured by the PCL-R and its derivatives, is a predictor of recidivism and violence in prison, forensic psychiatric, and civil psychiatric populations. The PCL-R is one of the most generalizable of the risk factors identified thus far, and for this reason it is included in various actuarial and structured clinical risk assessment procedures. Although psychopathy is not the only risk factor for recidivism and violence, it is too important to ignore, particularly with respect to violence. Treatment and management are difficult, time-consuming, and expensive, but new initiatives based on current theory and research on psychopathy and the most effective correctional philosophies may help to reduce the harm done by psychopaths.

PMID: 16904507 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:26pm

I am trying to put these new therapies in perspective. An dit is important to note if you review the lit, a lot o fit is focused on children, not full-blown psychopaths.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:27pm

yes beverly oprah thks so much for any help…its not very easy the contact us does not work for me

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:49pm

Dear NWView. I dont know much about Oprah or the magazine, I dont know if anyone else here can help you.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 5:34pm

Try Oprah.com, it’s a general link to most of her stuff.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 6:24pm

tks guys …i tried that, but no luck…im trying to do something for our community here….so maybe will need to resort to snail mail

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 7:32pm

takingmeback says:

Gillian, Oxy and anyone else who posted about how difficult it is to lose an S/N/P (sorry I’m skimming before bedtime)…

This hits home big time!

I told the ex S in the midst of his D&D stage that it would be easier if “he were dead”. It was true. He held that against me for…well forever as he hold grudges and never lets anything go. He’s such a keeper! >thank God for sarcasmsniff snifffill in the blank with any expletive you like as they all apply to him

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:35pm

Hey my post got cut off and mangled…what happened?

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:36pm

I don’t know takingmeback, sometimes it does that to me too. Not often but sometimes, I just come back on and “write continued” and go on. LOL

I do believe physical death (as a loss) is easier on the survivor than it is on the victim of a LIVING PSYCHOPATH. At least in the case of my P-son it sure was. I admit after I found out that he killed that girl, that I wished him dead, and her alive and in prison, it would have been easier on me!

Now, as far as my son is concerned, he IS DEAD to me. It was hard and long getting to that point but I am comfortable with it, just as I am accepting and comfortable with the fac that my husband is dead and isn’t coming back physically. It isn’t what I wanted, but it is what IS.

I’m getting to the point (slowly, and not there yet) that I can also adjust to the fact that my mother is out of my life too. I no longer am responsible for her either.

Adjusting to all these losses of what we thought were “loving” relationships is difficult, but it is the only thing that CAN SET US FREE of the chains of “emotional slavery” to a fantasy.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 11:04pm

Ah, it keeps doing it.

My heart goes out to you Oxy. You are in my prayers as you grieve your mother’s absence in your life. You are so strong and inspirtational. I am paying attention to what you write and I am going to work on the fact that the ex S is truly dead to me and imagine that he doesn’t exist anymore.

Thank you as always.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 11:44pm

I even had a little “ceremony” for the “burial” of my P-son, sort of like you might have a private memorial service for someone whose body wasn’t recovered. It sounds sort of silly maybe, but the emotional part of it was actually comforting to me.

I have talked to others who would go have a ceremony with throwing their wedding rings into the ocean or a lake or burying them or whatever, just something to symbolize the “death” of the relationship.

Since I am totally NC with mother now (I tried limited contact, for business only) but now I am even handling that by proxy as even seeing her now sets me back emotionally. NO contact is best at least for a LONG TIME if not forever. I know her health is precarious and she is likely to have a fatal or debilitating stroke any time (she is 79 and has already had several strokes but none terrible up to now) and I know she is under a lot of stress, lonely etc. which won’thelp her mental or physical health either) and I am more or less preparing myself for her declining health or even her death in such a way I am not going to feel “guilt ridden” that I “neglected” her in her old age, etc.

Actually she rescinded my power of attorney and it dawned on me that I do not have the authority to take care of her needs, therefore I do not have the responsibility either. My first cousin is her POA now, so he has both the authority and the responsibility since he took it on. She isn’t pushing a shhoping cart on some street, she is comfortably in her own home with some paid care giving and a paid driver, so she is not in need. I just no longer supervise her medical care, take her to the doctor etc. or socialize with her at all. What business we have to transact for the family land trust I communicate with her via my sons who do talk to her on a limited basis, but don’t trust her at all. I no longer FEEL responsible since I realized I am not leagally ABLE to do for her (I am her only child) so it is the “final hurdle” since I seem (at least today) to be okay with the X-BF-P, the XDIL-P (I never liked her anyway) , the TrojanHOrse P and my P-son.

My relationship with the son C married to the DIL-P and my relationship has been restored with her out of the picture, which is WONDERFUL. He currently lives out of state but we are closer than ever and talk constantly on the phone. I think he will be coming home before long, he’s pretty home sick I think. He and my adopted son D and I are all on the SAME page again and that is just the most wonderful gift from God that I could have had. Both young men have learned a great deal of good lessons from this as well, and I am pleased that even though this was quite painful, there have bene some great side benefits from it as well.

I am sure too, Takingmeback, that in your position as a therapist you will do A WORLD OF GOOD for the families of thes e people, and though you can’t treat the Ps, you can help their families survive and get through it. I bet a dollar that you have people who come to you for therapy because they are in a relationship with a P or have a P family member. Think of the good that you can do for those people, and turn this horrible event into MEANINGFUL learning. Not only beneficial for you, but for those clients that need it.

Look how much good Donna’s P-experience has done for others, for you and for me and so many hundreds of others here on this site now and in the past and in the future! It ripples out like the waves from a stone thrown into a lake. We may not “cure the world” but if we help one person at a time, and that person helps another, it spreads out in unending waves of goodness. Look how many people Viktor Frankl has helped, and he might not have been so wise and helpful if he had not had the horrible experiences he did. His book has helped me a great deal and I know you said you loved his book too. Go back and read it again and again. I am rereading it in part every night before I go to sleep. It gives me comfort to read his words. (((hugs))))

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 12:09am

Oxy,

I was thinking of a ceremony to do as well. Your previous post inspired me. I have gotten rid of everything he gave me and any reminders of him. I have even changed my house so it’s different from when we were together. I needed a total transformation. I am going on vacation soon to the ocean so perhaps I can make something I can cast out to sea. Oh I just remembered I have a “message in a bottle kit” I bought last year. I still have pictures on an old computer. Maybe I can print them out, erase them off my hard drive, and burn them. I can put the ashes in the bottle and send it adrift. Now is that legal or would it be considered littering? LOL. Perhaps I should put a warning on the bottle, “Beware, remnants of sociopath inside” LOL.

I have also wanted for months to have friends over for a get-to-gether. I have these great paint markers that are actually water-based and washable and I want all my friends to write their most favorite, encouraging quotes or personal anecdotes on the wall in my home office. I want something to sit and ponder during my difficult times. To remember I have friends who love me. They may not understand all I’ve been going through but just knowing they’re there is helpful.

It’s been a productive night for me . I do hope that the families and victims of Ps that I work with do benefit from my experience. I do feel more qualified in really knowing now what is most helpful in their recovery and how to truly provide good psychoeducation about the disorders. I have had some clients already say that they can’t believe I get it as so many other therapists haven’t. That breaks my heart but I’m glad I can be there for them. Just that validation for them alone does wonders.

I hope we all send ripples of truth out there for people to get educated. It’s not easy but someday I hope it becomes more public and people start to get it. We’re planting seeds regardless.

Blessings

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 12:45am

I had a “ceremony” about two month’s after he left, I got rid of everything he left here or reminded me of him, but I wanted to keep his wind chim’s that hung here and there. To me they represented the good thing’s in this person, what little good he had. But their chims in the wind were never comforting. So I took them all down and drove to the lake, one by one I threw them into the water where they sank to their silence. With each toss I greived and sobbed like never before. I was saying good bye to Mike – that was when I finally accepted who he is. Thats was when I knew I had no choice but to go on with out him. That was a day i will never forget..

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 5:09am

Oh Henry – what a sad story. I really feel for you and you obviously thought alot of him at the time. For me, its not just about getting rid of the possessions, although that is very therapeutic, it is also about getting rid of him out of my head.

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 5:29am

Dear Takingmeback, that is such a good feeling to know that you can use your painful experience to help the pain of others. BEing able to use your own painful experiences to help others is a good feeling for YOU as well. Helping (not enabling) others and passing on the blessings that you have received is a wonderful feeling. As Jesus said “it is more blessed to give than to receive” and when we HAVE received, to be able to pass that blessing on to others does not diminish our own blessing by one bit. “A sorrow shared is halved,and a joy shared is doubled.”

What a wonderful idea too about having your friends write on your wall!

Henry and Bev, getting them out of your head as far as “forgeting” that they were ever there I think is difficult to impossible, but for me, getting the PAIN ASSOCIATED WITH their memory to leave is the goal.

To be able to remember but not flinch, to just accept that they were and they are no longer, and not feel the grabbing in the pit of my stomach or the choking in my throat, the physical manifestations of the emotions involved. To resolve and let go of the anger and the rage and the wish for revenge which was there at first. I’m getting there, but do admit I have some set backs and some days not as good as others, but over all the progress is positive and for that I am thankful.

What I find now is that I don’t have a “reserve strength” to deal with the little emotional dramas that come up with other people, not Ps, but just “jerks”—I let those things irritate me more than I normally think I would. That tells me that I have some issues to still work on, and so I am working on those issues, so that I can have the “reserves” of emotional strength to use for just “normal irritations of life.”

Things like flat tires, or delays in traffic etc don’t rub me the wrong way, or even some jerk cutting me off in traffic or giving me the finger don’t bother me, but when people I know are disrespectful, inconsiderate, or just out and out rude, it does irritate me more than I think I should let it if I was “whole”—and instead of lashing out at them, I tend to “implode” and cry.

Having more energy to do things though I think is a good sign for me, and feeling better about myself, wanting to accomplish things. Now if the darned heat would abate a bit or it would rain a little, I’d be “totally happy” LOL Ah, the joys of a Southern summer–heat and humdity! But this too shall pass. LOL

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 1:00pm

razzaradda says:

part of me enjoys the idea of an sociopath having a medication induced mania and thus letting down their guard and charm enough that people can see who they really are. they may be acting out just as much or more, but at least it’s obvious and people can take cues to sidestep such a character.
my experiences with s-paths are actually ‘friends’ and not ex-s like most of you. my old supposed best friend is considered a ‘covetous sociopath’ and is a manipulative, charming, evil bitch. every man would kill to get their hands on something that oozes that much personality and sex appeal and if they do, she pushes the boundaries of mindfucking. i’ve known multiple ex’s of hers that she’s toyed with so much they fall into crushing depressions, even attempted suicide, all for her amusement. she ruined my adolesence by first bringing me on as her ugly sidekick to make herself look better and when i outgrew my awkward stage and actually became competition, she came after my self esteem with a vengeance…taking my lovers, spreading rumors about me or personal secrets, intimidating me with verbal abuse…all the while staring at me innocently “why would you think that? i’d never do anything to hurt you”
the thing is though i FINALLY ditched her ass when she stole 1,500 dollars from my mom, tried to sleep with ANOTHER one of my guys and wrecked mental havoc on me when i gained weight…every now and again i check up on her through facebook and the thing is, she’s on a wonderful downward spiral. addicted to drugs, pregnant, thousands of dollars in debt, no life plans, etc. nobody from my town will associate with her after the last time she was there…she was manic from blowing so much cocaine. she would never take medication, let alone go to a psychiatrist, but her drug use blew away any facade she had and every one could finally see she wasn’t so sweet and funny and cute anymore, she was a monster. now when i come back from college (god its so nice to know i have my shit together and she doesn’t…) i don’t have to run the risk of seeing her in my home town because she doesn’t bother coming back…nobody will talk to her, thus, no one to use. for once, thank god for cocaine.

Thursday, 18 September 2008 @ 2:53pm

Wini says:

Well razzaradda: One down, how many more to go?

Your post made me laugh and cry at the same time. Yes, they unfortunately play with everyone, skimming the surface of life, never feeling anything for anyone but do what they think is good for them. Sad but true.

Even though she caused chaos in your life and stole boyfriends and money from your mom and did all her games surrounding your life and out of range of your life… pray for her to find her way back to God.

Peace.

Thursday, 18 September 2008 @ 7:13pm

Jen2008 says:

Dr. Leedom, I think this is an excellent article. I am hoping, however, you can expand on the topic of WHY the therapist would want a person to stay with the sociopath and assist in treatment. I understand being married or in a relationship may make the socio more stable, but it seems to me that IF the therapist knows the patient is a sociopath, it would be unethical to encourage a “victim” to remain and sacrifice themselves in order to help the sociopath. As your article has made clear, although some of them may improve a bit with medication, they are still going to be a sociopath at the core, thus the potential for harm. I can understand a therapist who is the therapist to just the sociopath would not step in and encourage a victim to leave who was not already trying to leave the relationship, since it is the sociopath they are treating, but I don’t understand them wanting or encouraging the victim to stay either.

Friday, 19 September 2008 @ 7:42am

All depends on how deeply entrenched they are in their behavior.. while a true S/P won’t and can’t change.. there are milder forms and people who are acting that way temporarily for other reasons, if they really choose to change, they may have the inner resources to do it. Plus sometimes the victims are just not willing to give up hope right away and will “fire” the therapist for suggesting they move out.

Friday, 19 September 2008 @ 7:45am

Stayingsane says:

To everybody

what would it take….for you to accept them back into your life?
I’m asking this to try and anticipate my own blind spot, to try and prepare for any such eventuality….is there anyone here that is living happy ever after with reformed sociopath…even in cancer people can have “spontaneous remissions” and miracle cures….anyone out there with a book about a cured psychopath…?

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 6:17am

It just occurred to me….lookat the quality of person on this site…have you noticed? very articulate, intelligent….caring, balanced….is this a result of having to survive a S or is it the quality that predisposes us to attracting them?

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 6:20am

Hecates path says:

Staying sane & Dr. Leedom,

Wow! I had never read this particular article in all my time reading archived posts. It is an awesome article, Dr. Leedom… again one of those articles I think should be considered a LF “classic” and must read. Thank you, Staying sane, for bringing it back up for commentary.

Interestingly, it is especially timely for me to read this as my therapist has talked with me about another client who is in a very dangerous relationship with a sociopath and the client believes he will somehow “change” or be helped. I will definitely share this information with my therapist so that she can share it and hopefully help this woman save her own life!

The comment about medications changing the spontaneous nature of the sociopath and “All the “fun” part of the sociopath may disappear, leaving you with a boring parasite,” reflected another aspect of ex S. He has a history of seeking medical help for depression, anxiety, headaches, insomnia etc. only to either take them just long enough to feel better and thinks he no longer needs them OR, more often, stop taking them because HE doesn’t like how they make HIM feel… often saying they make him “tired” or “sedated”. (likely feelings he has because he hates perceieved boredom, etc). I am sure he is not isolated in such thinking and behavior as far as sociopaths are concerned.

Finally, Staying sane re: your comment “look at the quality of person on this site…have you noticed? very articulate, intelligent….caring, balanced….is this a result of having to survive a S or is it the quality that predisposes us to attracting them?” :

I personally think that the answer to your question is some combination of “all of the above”.

I also think sociopaths are drawn to the things in us that they lack in themselves whether they see it or not. Just as they are parasitic in other aspects of thier lives, I think they are emotional parasites in the sense that their partners have to “supply” or share with them all the good qualities they are lacking. When my S’s mask came off and I saw just how destructive he could be, I told my therapist that it was as if he had matched my goodness with an equal amount of evil!!! I guess that was a “compliment” to my goodness, LOL!

I have often said that initially my S “mirrored” so much of the good qualities in me, as if he was enamored by the effect and then his “mirroring” changed to where he perceived my good qualities as no longer “reflecting” on him in positive ways… and THEN his grandiosity kicked in as if to say ” how dare YOU reflect my weaknesses! oh wait! *I* have NO weaknesses! YOU are the problem! Must bring you down to size or throw you to the curb!” Classic devalue and discard when we are no longer a positive reflection, right?!

Additionally, there is a LF quiz to assess your risk of being the victim of a sociopath in the links that addresses your question of qualities predisposing us to attracting them. I *think* I scored a 34, but regardless ofthe score I am sure that I scored almost “perfect” as in perfect for attracting such characters! Lucky me, LOL!

Wow this got long – thanks for reading all of this if you stuck it out ’til the end!! And thanks again for the info, Dr. Leedom and to Staying sane for bringing it and your Q’s to the discussion! Have a great day!

Hecate’s Path

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 9:01am

To change up General Custer’s quote: “The only GOOD PSYCHOPATH is a dead one.”

Stayingsane if you want to STAY SANE don’t ever let the thought of “curing” a psychopath lure you in.

Dr. Hare says after age 40 many times they ‘calm down” and quit being quite the horrible criminals they were (not robbing and killing as much) but every one I know that is dead was TOXIC right up to the last breath.

Even if let’s say they got 75% better, could you live with that 25% of lies and manipulation? I couldn’t. I don’t want to. Why not just stay away from them and hang with GOOD people who love and respect you.

Psychopaths are HARD WIRED, mostly by genetics, to be what they are. Do you think you can take an old rattle snake and it will become a puppy? Or quit being toxic. Just as “rational” to think a psychopath will “change for the better.”

Lots of people have wasted nearly all or all of their lives hoping against hope that their psychopath will “change” (and oh, sometimes they promise to, but they don’t follow through). I wasted nearly 30 years hoping my son would “reform” and what did I get for my trouble and pain? Attempted to murder me!

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 9:06am

ps: stayingsane, that quality of the people here IS AMAZING isn’t it. I have been on several other blogs about suviving and many are filled with people who are cranky (sometimes the managers) or down right nasty, and just argue and don’t get it….not here. Sharp and caring people.

To answer your other question, yep, there are some threads on what makes us vulnerable and I suggest that you read “Women who love psychopaths” there are several things WE have in common just like there are things THEY have in common, and hyper caring is one of them that WE seem to have across the board.

I also suggest that you go back through all the archived articles and read EVERY ONE (will take a while!) because there are so omany good things here that are so informing and make sense both from an emotional standpoint and a scientific standpoint,

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 9:10am

ErinBrockovich says:

Stayingsane:

“what would it take….for you to accept them back into your life?”

Me to be reincarnated into a fool!!!

My self esteem being so low that i fall for the ‘I love you more than anythings’,
The…..your the only woman i will ever love.
The…..please help me’s
The…..I miss ‘us’s
The…..fact that I would be willing to die

Shall I stop now?

You are in the ‘wishy/washy’, question yourself phase…..
Is it me?
Gosh, maybe it is me?
Maybe I am wrong and he really is a great person, I just couldn’t see it…….
Oh, how could I ever live with the thought of letting him go if I was wrong?
Am I making a big mistake here?

OKAY…….this is where the gut comes in….girl, you must listen to your gut and recall the red flags….
For me, I would rather be wrong and away from this person and happy than to be right and still with them.
There are obviously red flags…..reflect on those and ask yourself….is this really what I am worth? IS this really what I want to do forever….support them and get abused in return?
NO WAY JOSE!!!!!
Self respect, boundries, independance, patience, honor to yourself, self control and self love are all way more important then being in even a ’semi-abusive’ relationship with ANYONE!
THEY DO NOT CHANGE, they have temporary ’suck back in’ moments and once they are confident they have you ‘back’….the cycle continues.
I KNOW I DID IT FOR 28 years!!!!!
My ex S even at his deposition….several hours of obvious lies, documented deceit that my attorney called him out on…..ended this ‘meeting’ standing at the door, turned around and said with all the heartfelt he could muster……”I LOVE YOU ERIN”……
UH, yeah……OKAY! Luv you to babe, sincerely with all my heart!!!
THIS IS WHAT THEY DO……the suck in…..
It worked for years…..it was what we want to hear/believe etc….
Once the words come out, we suck into them….it’s our own fantasy.

You couldn’t pay me or give me the moon or anything else in this world and beyond to get back with the S. I will spend the rest of my life NC!

Also, it doesn’t matter if they are P’s, S’s, borderlines,Bi-polars, freaks, actors, snakes, monsters, thiefs, murderers or whatever you wish to call your particular problem relationship…..
THEY ARE TOXIC and HIGH CONFLICT, it’s not healthy and we all deserve BETTER!!!!!

We have to be in control of our own minds…..stay strong!

XXOO

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 4:43pm

Tilly says:

I just have to warn people that Victor Frankl’s book “mans search for meaning” was used by my ex P to “get me in”. He learned it off by heart and always had it on him and quoted it ad nauseum when he was “courting me”. It worked. I had already told him that I had read that book and that loved it so he used it. I fell in love with a total psychopath disguised as Victor Frankl. I fell in love with Victor Frankl by proxy, all over again.
The extent these snakes in suits will go to is mind boggling.
I am also very impress with this article.
My ex P disguised as “victor frankle” was on very strong anti depressants by day, sleeping pills by night and an alcoholic into the bargain. The rest of the time he played golf, ripped off the health insurance ( for hundreds of thousands) ( he was an unemployed dentist) and spent the rest of the time manipulating people on the phone. He had to take viagra for sex ( he hid this fact for a year). All in all he was just what you would think Victor Frankl would be like (NOT!!!!).
I used to wonder what he would be like on anti psychotics ( a chemical straight jacket), but I have since seen sociopaths on them and I think they are just a bit slower.
When my ExP dentist dropped his anti depressent he became a million times more aggressive and deceitfula nd criminal.

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 5:47pm

Oxy:
Your post about your p son is so good for me. When I finally realised (with your help), that my daughter, ” for a FACT ..DID NOT ONLY NOT LOVE ME, HE HATED ME, he WANTED ME DEAD so he could have what I had worked for and he felt he deserved to have”. It was like an epiphany! I did not want to believe it and I still have days where I feel guilt (FOG) but the truth is in my heart, that I have to let her go. That in fact – SHE HAS ALREADY GONE MANY MANY YEARS AGO! I cannot deny it because it is so obvious. And I will have a ceremony eventually. I have got rid of her pictures around the room and her “stuff”, which helped me enormously.
My daughter died, in fact, with this daughter, in retrospect I believe she was born a psychopath. Like her father. He is a murdering criminal psychopath that NO-ONE would suspect. He LOOKS like one, but his charm and wit and humour is so disarming you would never know. He still roams free like a crocodile.
My daughter looks like an angel from heaven and can cry at a seconds notice. Her smile lights up the world . She has the charm and manners and wit and intelligence of a fantsy princess. She is too good to be true.

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 6:00pm

She told my youngest gentle son a few weeks ago that ALL SHE HAD EVER FELT TOWARDS ME IN HER WHOLE LIFE WAS GUILT AND JEALOUSY.

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 6:03pm

Brilhancy says:

ErinBrockvich,

A very scary ref flag that just send chivers to my spine. On an occasion of extreme abuse (not physical abuse) I was so hurt that I sat outside and took a bottle of Tia maria ( I do not drink ever) and start stargazing in despair. Without thinking of what I was doing I started drink the Tia Maria with empty stomach. Offcouse after a few hours I was sick. I hardly could walk. I sat at the shower and shivering talking to myself ‘do not fall asleep

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 6:09pm

justabouthealed says:

Billancy, yes whenever someone has that strong of a negative effect on us it is a clear sign to run as far away from them as you can.

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 9:30pm

Dear Tilly,

Even at the time in 1991 when he murdered that girl, and I was in such grief and pain (even though eh denied it I “knew” it was so) that his life was permanently ruined, I kept feeling I wanted to change places with that girl’s mother because it would have been easier for ME. At least when your kid is murdered the friends, church, neighbors, etc. come and mourn with you, but with me, I was BLAMED by the cops (oh, I wish you could have heard how they talked to me! Like I had done it by giving birth to him!) My husband’s niece who had taken him in (against my advice) to protect th epoor dear from his harsh mother, blamed me….he blamed me! the only one who didn’t blame me was my husband, God rest his soul!

Tilly, I know it is difficult to “give up” on someone you gave birth to, and so many people will tell you in all sincerity “oh, s/he’s your son/daughter hhow could you ever stop loving them (and putting up with their crap!)” But I can tell you I have NO love for the MAN my baby became, and my baby is GONE, DEAD, BURIED.

It sort of happened suddenly I was blogging here and I just got up went to the photos and took out everything of him over about age 12 and cut him out of our photo album, then I had my little “memorial service” for my dead baby, and I cried and grieved, and it was like a GREAT WEIGHT was off my shoulders.

Like you, tilly, I’ve had run ins with multiple Ps and when you are grieving for the losses of multiple situations and traumas, you think you have one “handled” but another pops up, and then the first one pops up again too, it takes TIME and thought and “processing” of these thoughts and emotions. it isn’t just like building say a house, where you lay a foundation then the walls and floor and then the roof, you build the foundation, someone blows it up, you rebuild it, then put the floor on and the wind knocks it down, the you start over again, etc. etc. It is more, I think, like planting a garden, and sometimes the weather or winds blow your crops down, but you cant start over cause it is too late in the year, or you cant find more seed, or the weeds take over cause your tractor breaks down, so your plot of ground goes back to weeds and brush, and you have to reclear the ground again, but this time with a hoe instead of a tractor, but then you fall and break your arm….it just seems never ending.

I think we must just take each day as we find it, work the best we can, and then put our heads on the pillows and say “I did all I can do”

We may never see the ‘reasons’ for the things that have happened, our why, or why we didn’t take action sooner, and all I can say is “i wasn’t ready yet THEN” but “I AM READY NOW!”

IN my own little garden plot this year I have not spent as much time taking care of it as I could have (should? have?) so some of the weeds are there, but in spite of the weeds we have had more squash than we could ’say grace over” and fresh herbs and spices and garlic, and a few tomotoes…so rather than castigating myself for the weeds, I am grateful for the produce in spite of them. Today I made yogurt and cheese from the goat milk and ate it on some of the nicest rye melba toast with herbs and a fresh slice of tomato, and I felt so RICH and SATISFIED as I shared this treat with a friend and with my sons. It is the little things in life that make it RICH and SATISFYING.

Tonight I am tired, but in a good way, from doing something creative (cheese making is as much an art as a science) and life affirming, something that people have done in log cabins, brick mansions, palaces and mud huts for tens of thousands of years…those small comforts and creative efforts are my life and my pleasure.

Now to bed a tired old lady, satisfied and happy and grateful to God that my son’s biopsy came back OK. Thanks fo rall your prayers Tilly, it hellps me to know you are there rooting for me and cheering me on!@ Love oxy

Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 10:12pm

justabouthealed, ErinBrockvich,

Ups…. had a computer problem. the mssage was sent without me finishing it.

A very scary red flag that just sent chivers to my spine. On an occasion of extreme abuse (not physical abuse) I was so hurt that I sat outside and took a bottle of Tia maria ( I do not drink ever) and start stargazing in despair. Without thinking of what I was doing I started drink the Tia Maria with empty stomach. Offcouse after a few hours I was sick. I hardly could walk. I sat at the shower and shivering talking to myself ‘do not fall asleep, continuing…….keep your eyes open. The S by then came to the shower and set there smiling…..brummmmmmm

After a while he took me to my bed..wet clothes and all and set there beside me…..I hardly could talk…he even did not boder to give me a pair of dry clothes. He sat there holding my pulse and I saying to myself…do not fall sleep…

Anyway…I was so stupid that I though his gesture was nice…after all he is not that bad…

This same man would rush to hospital for the most simple thing in the past…the kids could not have a cut in there fingers that there he was most concerned.

How come he did not boder to take me to hospital? Instead sitting in there holding my pulse..

Now remember, the only bill he never forgot to pay was a life insurence on me. and early on he sad: the best thing that could happen to him was if I die because he would get money from my Life Insurance.

Well…..that night when he was holding my pulse and I thought it was a nice gesture from him…I now know that he was hopping that I die….

The next day he said to the kids: Mum was really drunk last night…and the kids What?

Bastard he was hopping that I die and made those comments for the kids to think really bad about me..offcourse never told the reasons why I was so sick…and what his done afterwards…

How could I not see that by then….my God he was quitly doing everything for me to die….pushing me to the limits ..

For jis disapointment I AM VERY WELL AND VERY ALIVE…

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 1:20am

Betty says:

Dear Oxy,

WHOOP!

That’s great news about your son! I’m so happy for you guys! (It’s really hard to do the Happy Dance and type at the same time!)

I love it that you make cheese! I’ve tried it, with disasterous (and smelly) results, and I buy all mine now because I choose life, but it is very cool to be able to make it yourself!

Brilhancy,

Nobody should ever have to go through something that awful — but you did come through it, and you even figured out what he was up to!

And you’re here, safe and sound. That is brilliant!

BIGhugs!
Betty

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 2:37am

Oxy:
I am over the moon about your sons biopsy!
I can’t tell you……I just never ever wish to hear about another person having melanoma.
Just 2 months ago….I had a VERY dear friend pass away. It’s a nasty, horrible disease…..and the treatment is dreadful……and usually unsuccessful!
My friend fought like a banshee…..for 16 months…..every step bad news……treatments after treatment and on to 3 different trials in Bethesda.
He died like he lived….in control of his destiny.
He was heli skiing just two months prior to passing. I still laugh at him telling me as he was 3 days prior to departure to Canada for heli sk…. He was waiting for a call from the Dr’s…..he said he needed to have a quick Brain surgery before he left to go Heliskiing…..UH

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 4:03am

Eeekks….
whats going on here? It’s not posting the whole post>!!??
Anyways…..
My friend went heli skiing and came home and immediately had the surgery….he never really was the same from the surgery…..
BUT>…..he lived and did what he wanted. accepted the cards he was dealt with wisdom and a tenaciious fight.
He is my ispiration and I will always feel him close……I will always hear him chuckle when I overcome an asshole move from the S…..He loved hearing about what I was up to on my counter attacks…..he loved it, it inspired me to keep going.
He gave me fight! He gave me strength. I gave him a diversion from his own fight…..
I am so grateful I got to share the end result with him……he saw it full circle……from planning the wedding, child bearing, investments, houses, jobs, questioning and becoming aware of these behaviors….He gave me strength my whole adult life.
He was thrilled to hear about the last court date, he laughed at every statement. He said “good for you Erin, I knew you could do it, I am proud of how far you have come’.
Those words meant so much coming from him!
He was a GEM!!!! He knew the S and he “GOT IT”, he stuck up for me, he was there when I needed someone to be there, he was ther when I was sick, I was there when he got sick…..we shared a lot of life, love and laughter….sadness, strength and tears……
He was a man of honor, integrity and faithfullness.
He is my friend.
Hug your son close, I am so glad he will not experience that ugly journey!
XXOO

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 4:13am

Dear Erin,

Thank you for the story about your friend! That is wonderful, you know, I think the “shared experience” of someone we love’s death can be some of the most meaningful time to them and to us. My beloved stepfatehr and I shared his 18 month journey and he and I had some wonderful and close times. I still laugh about his jokes and his dry sense of humor and one-lines off the top of his head! It sounds like you share those same kinds of memories with your wonderful friend. those are memories that will comfort and warm you the rest of your life, and I know that having you there with him was benefical adn comforting fo rhim as well as for you.

Yes, I am glad lmy son’s biopsy turned out negative, I could see the relief in his eyes when he got the results. he was being stoic about it outwardly but I know he must have been worried about it inside. (He’s too much like me!!! LOL)

Thank all of you for your prayers, concerns and good wishes for my son about his biopsy. I am so fortunate to have him back alive and well from that nearly 8 yr. marriage-from-hell with his P X-wife. Not only back physically but emotionally as well.

Erin, I have been blessed by having several really CLOSE friends that have never never let me down, not many, I think a person is fortunate to have one or two of this kind of friend. these friends are there for you in good times and bad, and the more you share the stronger the bond grows. My best friend lives 7 hours from me, but we have mantained a CLOSE friendship in spite of that and visit and e mail and phone often and keep our friendship intact. We’ve been through the bad times for each other and the shared the good as well. there is nothing I wouldn’t do for her that was within my power. I KNOW that she had already done the same for me. Even though your friend is gone from your sight, he remains in your heart. My step father is as close to me now as he was when he was living and I can actually “ask him questions” about “what would you advise, daddy?” and if I sit quietly and LISTEN I can almost hear him telling me what to do. He was sharp and intuitive about people, and his advise was kind and firm and never bad. Sometimes I will dream about a problem and he will come to the dream and tell me the answer as if we had a visit in teh flesh. Those we love and who loved us are always with us. (((hugs)))) and God bless

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 9:31am

OXY:
TOWANDA! We beat the biopsy! AWESOME! xoxo(((OXY”S SON))).
I loved your analogy of the garden and the house and the cheese… you should write a fiction book Oxy, I wanted the story to go on forever!
Thankyou so much for being there Oxy, you have/are
helping me more than you will ever know.I wouldn’t be able to make it (as far as my P kids go) without you.oxxoxoxoxo

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 5:18pm

ANewLily says:

OxDrover, I just popped in to let you know that I, too, am so relieved that C’s biopsy turned out negative!

As you know, I just got “back” my second daughter, not physically yet, but emotionally, only to find out this morning that a mass has been found on her gallbladder. They think it is from the years of meds she’s taken for gluten intolerance but is a concern.

This morning she told me that an MRI will show more on Monday.

I am fighting the desire to cancel my own medical procedures scheduled for Tuesday and be ready to fly “home” if needed.

Tilly, I’ve been following your teeth problems, too. I hope you have felt my prayers. Abcesses are painful but I’ll bet you agree that the physical pain is easier to handle (but barely) than the emotional pain of living with/defending ourselves from an N/P/S, including your P teacher and friend!

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 5:24pm

ANEWLILY:
Yes thankyou, I have felt your prayers! And you are so right ANL…I HAVE HAD MY TWO TEETH PULLED OUT!!! And ever since I did NO MORE PAIN!!! (TOTALLY UNLIKE DEFENDING OURSELVES FROM A SOCIOPATH?PSYCHOPAT AYE LILY!!!LOL!)
And now i look like the angry raging monster i sometimes feel, so people will think twice about crossing me (ROTFLMAO)!
And I don’t have the thousands they want so I will be looking like this for quite awhile. God sure has a sense of humour…I wish I could bump into my exP dentist in a dark alley(shining a torch under my chin) now! (Rosa would like that one!)
And it is a relief to be out of the dating stakes completly. I intend on giving my P teacher a BIG SMILE tomorrow and see what comes pouring out of her mouth! lol!

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 10:10pm

P.S. If you cancel your appointment I will twang you with my boomerang. Prayers for your 2nd daughter. xo

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 10:11pm

Wish we could pull out the sociopath just as easy and toss him in the bin and be immediately free of pain !

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 10:13pm

PInow says:

LOL Tilly.
Reading the posts from yesterday. Thank you to all who have shared kind words with me. Tilly, you just used a word I can relate to: Did anyone feel like they had a Psycho-PET? I mean, really… Sometimes, looking back I recall the feeling like he was a pet. He was so parasitic, but good for wagging, when I was around. It’s incredible how the Pet was out destroying, but home in time to wag his “front” tail in what was described in another post “sexual aggressive master act”. Incredible how I’d let it go on. well, I did not: I stumped my feet, I called on every saint, and it got to the point when I prayed I could no longer pray for him as a part of my family, and wondered why. I tried harder and harder, and then to total dismay I started having a daily drink to “take the stress off”, which I had never done before or since. Psycho = pet – can we pull them out like a bad tooth?

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 10:20pm

http://www.reuters.com/article.....dChannel=0

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 11:24pm

http://www.reuters.com/article.....NI20090807

Just so no one misses it, the above link is the second page, this is the first page. Thanks for the great article!!!

Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 11:44pm

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Medication used to treat sociopathy/psychopathy

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