Medication used to treat sociopathy/psychopathy
PDF It turns out that Sandy Brown, M.A. is quite correct in stating that any talk of treatment of sociopathy makes people (particularly women) reluctant to give up on a dangerous relationship. We received a note this week from a woman asking for more info about treatment and wanting to know if there was any hope for her man. He was the only man she had ever loved and she was actually still grappling with the meaning of his diagnosis.
This week, I will discuss medications that can be used to treat sociopathy. But before I do I want to make it clear that I encourage people to break away from sociopaths. Remember that the sociopath’s doctor and therapist will want you to stay with the sociopath to assist in the treatment. Sociopaths “do better” with treatment and when they stay married. So let me explain what “do better” means. Also this discussion will help you if you are still grappling with the meaning of your sociopath’s diagnosis.
One of the ways to assess sociopathy is with the Psychopathy Check List-Revised, developed by Dr. Robert Hare (PCL-R). The PCL-R is a 20 item psychological evaluation that professionals with training complete on a person using an interview and a review of criminal/ psychiatric records. When someone scores above 30 on the PCL-R that person is “a psychopath.” Most people who psychiatrists would consider “sociopaths” score above 20 on the PCL-R.
Researchers have used the PCL-R to evaluate large numbers of people. They have found that some items of the 20 item test are correlated with each other. That means that say a person who scores high on item 1 is also likely to score high on items 2, 4, 5, but not necessarily item 20. On the basis of these item correlations, researchers have grouped the items into two “factors” each having two “facets.” I will use these factors and facets to discuss with you what aspects may respond to medication. Two items of the PCL-R do not belong to either Factor 1 or 2. These are Item 11, Sexual Promiscuity and Item 17, Many short term marital relationships. These items stay part of the PCL-R because they are so integral to psychopathy as you already know!
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Factor 1 |
Factor 2 |
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Facet 1 Interpersonal Symptoms |
Facet 3 Lifestyle |
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1. Glibness/superficial charm 2. Grandiose sense of self worth 4. Pathological Lying 5. Conning/manipulative |
3. Need for Stimulation 9. Parasitic Lifestyle 13. Lack of realistic long term goals 14. Impulsivity 15. Irresponsible Behavior |
|
Facet 2 Affective (emotional) symptoms |
Facet 4 Criminal Behavior |
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6. Lack of Remorse/Guilt 7. Shallow Affect 8. Callous/Lack of Empathy 16. Failure to accept responsibility for actions |
10. Poor behavior controls 12. Early Behavior Problems 18. Juvenile Delinquency 19. Revocation of conditional release 20. Criminal versatility |
Look at the Table above and consider that you are interested in the two items that are not part of either factor and Factor 1. These are the symptoms that are most concerning to family members. The criminal justice system and professionals are most interested in Factor 2.
Look at the list again and imagine a person with a great deal of energy either because he or she is manic or because he or she is on speed. In that case Items 1, 2, 5, 3, 13, 14, 15, 10, 19, 20 and 11 would be most affected. In fact this is why there is overlap between bipolar disorder and psychopathy.
Anything that increases a sociopath’s energy level makes him or her worse. Anything that reduces his or her drive leads to “improvement.” That is why, medications for mania like lithium, anticonvulsants and antipsychotic drugs have been used “successfully” to treat sociopathy. In this case success is defined in terms of fewer arrests and aggressive acts.
Also look at the list and notice that Items 3, 14 , 15, 10, 19 and 11 are related to poor impulse control. These symptoms may respond to antidepressants that work on the serotonin system. Defects in the serotonin system are thought to underlie impulsivity. The problem is that many people become manic when they take antidepressants so these can also make a sociopath worse.
Okay, now see what was left off the list, and you will conclude with me that medication will not turn your sociopath into someone you want to spend your life with. Many people say that the sociopath’s energy and spontaneity are what they find attractive. If that is the case for you, then medication which reduces a sociopath’s energy level will make him or her less attractive to you. All the “fun” part of the sociopath may disappear, leaving you with a boring parasite.
Nothing will make a sociopath loving and empathetic or build a conscience. A loving person takes care of his/her family, is trustworthy and doesn’t lie. Medication cannot make a person loving; it can only reduce dangerousness. Focus on the use of the term reduce, as I did not say eliminate dangerousness. In a hypothetical research study, a 50% reduction in the battering of family members and a 50% reduction in arrests would be considered “improvement.” That does not mean sociopaths are turned into people you want to share your life with.
So why do I even discuss treatment? Only to keep you informed and for those who for whatever reason choose to share life with a sociopath.
Next week psychotherapy for sociopathy.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
takingmeback says:
Gillian, Oxy and anyone else who posted about how difficult it is to lose an S/N/P (sorry I’m skimming before bedtime)…
This hits home big time!
I told the ex S in the midst of his D&D stage that it would be easier if “he were dead”. It was true. He held that against me for…well forever as he hold grudges and never lets anything go. He’s such a keeper! >thank God for sarcasmsniff snifffill in the blank with any expletive you like as they all apply to him
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takingmeback says:
Hey my post got cut off and mangled…what happened?
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OxDrover says:
I don’t know takingmeback, sometimes it does that to me too. Not often but sometimes, I just come back on and “write continued” and go on. LOL
I do believe physical death (as a loss) is easier on the survivor than it is on the victim of a LIVING PSYCHOPATH. At least in the case of my P-son it sure was. I admit after I found out that he killed that girl, that I wished him dead, and her alive and in prison, it would have been easier on me!
Now, as far as my son is concerned, he IS DEAD to me. It was hard and long getting to that point but I am comfortable with it, just as I am accepting and comfortable with the fac that my husband is dead and isn’t coming back physically. It isn’t what I wanted, but it is what IS.
I’m getting to the point (slowly, and not there yet) that I can also adjust to the fact that my mother is out of my life too. I no longer am responsible for her either.
Adjusting to all these losses of what we thought were “loving” relationships is difficult, but it is the only thing that CAN SET US FREE of the chains of “emotional slavery” to a fantasy.
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takingmeback says:
Ah, it keeps doing it.
My heart goes out to you Oxy. You are in my prayers as you grieve your mother’s absence in your life. You are so strong and inspirtational. I am paying attention to what you write and I am going to work on the fact that the ex S is truly dead to me and imagine that he doesn’t exist anymore.
Thank you as always.
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OxDrover says:
I even had a little “ceremony” for the “burial” of my P-son, sort of like you might have a private memorial service for someone whose body wasn’t recovered. It sounds sort of silly maybe, but the emotional part of it was actually comforting to me.
I have talked to others who would go have a ceremony with throwing their wedding rings into the ocean or a lake or burying them or whatever, just something to symbolize the “death” of the relationship.
Since I am totally NC with mother now (I tried limited contact, for business only) but now I am even handling that by proxy as even seeing her now sets me back emotionally. NO contact is best at least for a LONG TIME if not forever. I know her health is precarious and she is likely to have a fatal or debilitating stroke any time (she is 79 and has already had several strokes but none terrible up to now) and I know she is under a lot of stress, lonely etc. which won’thelp her mental or physical health either) and I am more or less preparing myself for her declining health or even her death in such a way I am not going to feel “guilt ridden” that I “neglected” her in her old age, etc.
Actually she rescinded my power of attorney and it dawned on me that I do not have the authority to take care of her needs, therefore I do not have the responsibility either. My first cousin is her POA now, so he has both the authority and the responsibility since he took it on. She isn’t pushing a shhoping cart on some street, she is comfortably in her own home with some paid care giving and a paid driver, so she is not in need. I just no longer supervise her medical care, take her to the doctor etc. or socialize with her at all. What business we have to transact for the family land trust I communicate with her via my sons who do talk to her on a limited basis, but don’t trust her at all. I no longer FEEL responsible since I realized I am not leagally ABLE to do for her (I am her only child) so it is the “final hurdle” since I seem (at least today) to be okay with the X-BF-P, the XDIL-P (I never liked her anyway) , the TrojanHOrse P and my P-son.
My relationship with the son C married to the DIL-P and my relationship has been restored with her out of the picture, which is WONDERFUL. He currently lives out of state but we are closer than ever and talk constantly on the phone. I think he will be coming home before long, he’s pretty home sick I think. He and my adopted son D and I are all on the SAME page again and that is just the most wonderful gift from God that I could have had. Both young men have learned a great deal of good lessons from this as well, and I am pleased that even though this was quite painful, there have bene some great side benefits from it as well.
I am sure too, Takingmeback, that in your position as a therapist you will do A WORLD OF GOOD for the families of thes e people, and though you can’t treat the Ps, you can help their families survive and get through it. I bet a dollar that you have people who come to you for therapy because they are in a relationship with a P or have a P family member. Think of the good that you can do for those people, and turn this horrible event into MEANINGFUL learning. Not only beneficial for you, but for those clients that need it.
Look how much good Donna’s P-experience has done for others, for you and for me and so many hundreds of others here on this site now and in the past and in the future! It ripples out like the waves from a stone thrown into a lake. We may not “cure the world” but if we help one person at a time, and that person helps another, it spreads out in unending waves of goodness. Look how many people Viktor Frankl has helped, and he might not have been so wise and helpful if he had not had the horrible experiences he did. His book has helped me a great deal and I know you said you loved his book too. Go back and read it again and again. I am rereading it in part every night before I go to sleep. It gives me comfort to read his words. (((hugs))))
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takingmeback says:
Oxy,
I was thinking of a ceremony to do as well. Your previous post inspired me. I have gotten rid of everything he gave me and any reminders of him. I have even changed my house so it’s different from when we were together. I needed a total transformation. I am going on vacation soon to the ocean so perhaps I can make something I can cast out to sea. Oh I just remembered I have a “message in a bottle kit” I bought last year. I still have pictures on an old computer. Maybe I can print them out, erase them off my hard drive, and burn them. I can put the ashes in the bottle and send it adrift. Now is that legal or would it be considered littering? LOL. Perhaps I should put a warning on the bottle, “Beware, remnants of sociopath inside” LOL.
I have also wanted for months to have friends over for a get-to-gether. I have these great paint markers that are actually water-based and washable and I want all my friends to write their most favorite, encouraging quotes or personal anecdotes on the wall in my home office. I want something to sit and ponder during my difficult times. To remember I have friends who love me. They may not understand all I’ve been going through but just knowing they’re there is helpful.
It’s been a productive night for me
. I do hope that the families and victims of Ps that I work with do benefit from my experience. I do feel more qualified in really knowing now what is most helpful in their recovery and how to truly provide good psychoeducation about the disorders. I have had some clients already say that they can’t believe I get it as so many other therapists haven’t. That breaks my heart but I’m glad I can be there for them. Just that validation for them alone does wonders.
I hope we all send ripples of truth out there for people to get educated. It’s not easy but someday I hope it becomes more public and people start to get it. We’re planting seeds regardless.
Blessings
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henry says:
I had a “ceremony” about two month’s after he left, I got rid of everything he left here or reminded me of him, but I wanted to keep his wind chim’s that hung here and there. To me they represented the good thing’s in this person, what little good he had. But their chims in the wind were never comforting. So I took them all down and drove to the lake, one by one I threw them into the water where they sank to their silence. With each toss I greived and sobbed like never before. I was saying good bye to Mike – that was when I finally accepted who he is. Thats was when I knew I had no choice but to go on with out him. That was a day i will never forget..
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Beverly says:
Oh Henry – what a sad story. I really feel for you and you obviously thought alot of him at the time. For me, its not just about getting rid of the possessions, although that is very therapeutic, it is also about getting rid of him out of my head.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Takingmeback, that is such a good feeling to know that you can use your painful experience to help the pain of others. BEing able to use your own painful experiences to help others is a good feeling for YOU as well. Helping (not enabling) others and passing on the blessings that you have received is a wonderful feeling. As Jesus said “it is more blessed to give than to receive” and when we HAVE received, to be able to pass that blessing on to others does not diminish our own blessing by one bit. “A sorrow shared is halved,and a joy shared is doubled.”
What a wonderful idea too about having your friends write on your wall!
Henry and Bev, getting them out of your head as far as “forgeting” that they were ever there I think is difficult to impossible, but for me, getting the PAIN ASSOCIATED WITH their memory to leave is the goal.
To be able to remember but not flinch, to just accept that they were and they are no longer, and not feel the grabbing in the pit of my stomach or the choking in my throat, the physical manifestations of the emotions involved. To resolve and let go of the anger and the rage and the wish for revenge which was there at first. I’m getting there, but do admit I have some set backs and some days not as good as others, but over all the progress is positive and for that I am thankful.
What I find now is that I don’t have a “reserve strength” to deal with the little emotional dramas that come up with other people, not Ps, but just “jerks”—I let those things irritate me more than I normally think I would. That tells me that I have some issues to still work on, and so I am working on those issues, so that I can have the “reserves” of emotional strength to use for just “normal irritations of life.”
Things like flat tires, or delays in traffic etc don’t rub me the wrong way, or even some jerk cutting me off in traffic or giving me the finger don’t bother me, but when people I know are disrespectful, inconsiderate, or just out and out rude, it does irritate me more than I think I should let it if I was “whole”—and instead of lashing out at them, I tend to “implode” and cry.
Having more energy to do things though I think is a good sign for me, and feeling better about myself, wanting to accomplish things. Now if the darned heat would abate a bit or it would rain a little, I’d be “totally happy” LOL Ah, the joys of a Southern summer–heat and humdity! But this too shall pass. LOL
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razzaradda says:
part of me enjoys the idea of an sociopath having a medication induced mania and thus letting down their guard and charm enough that people can see who they really are. they may be acting out just as much or more, but at least it’s obvious and people can take cues to sidestep such a character.
my experiences with s-paths are actually ‘friends’ and not ex-s like most of you. my old supposed best friend is considered a ‘covetous sociopath’ and is a manipulative, charming, evil bitch. every man would kill to get their hands on something that oozes that much personality and sex appeal and if they do, she pushes the boundaries of mindfucking. i’ve known multiple ex’s of hers that she’s toyed with so much they fall into crushing depressions, even attempted suicide, all for her amusement. she ruined my adolesence by first bringing me on as her ugly sidekick to make herself look better and when i outgrew my awkward stage and actually became competition, she came after my self esteem with a vengeance…taking my lovers, spreading rumors about me or personal secrets, intimidating me with verbal abuse…all the while staring at me innocently “why would you think that? i’d never do anything to hurt you”
the thing is though i FINALLY ditched her ass when she stole 1,500 dollars from my mom, tried to sleep with ANOTHER one of my guys and wrecked mental havoc on me when i gained weight…every now and again i check up on her through facebook and the thing is, she’s on a wonderful downward spiral. addicted to drugs, pregnant, thousands of dollars in debt, no life plans, etc. nobody from my town will associate with her after the last time she was there…she was manic from blowing so much cocaine. she would never take medication, let alone go to a psychiatrist, but her drug use blew away any facade she had and every one could finally see she wasn’t so sweet and funny and cute anymore, she was a monster. now when i come back from college (god its so nice to know i have my shit together and she doesn’t…) i don’t have to run the risk of seeing her in my home town because she doesn’t bother coming back…nobody will talk to her, thus, no one to use. for once, thank god for cocaine.
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Wini says:
Well razzaradda: One down, how many more to go?
Your post made me laugh and cry at the same time. Yes, they unfortunately play with everyone, skimming the surface of life, never feeling anything for anyone but do what they think is good for them. Sad but true.
Even though she caused chaos in your life and stole boyfriends and money from your mom and did all her games surrounding your life and out of range of your life… pray for her to find her way back to God.
Peace.
Peace.
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Jen2008 says:
Dr. Leedom, I think this is an excellent article. I am hoping, however, you can expand on the topic of WHY the therapist would want a person to stay with the sociopath and assist in treatment. I understand being married or in a relationship may make the socio more stable, but it seems to me that IF the therapist knows the patient is a sociopath, it would be unethical to encourage a “victim” to remain and sacrifice themselves in order to help the sociopath. As your article has made clear, although some of them may improve a bit with medication, they are still going to be a sociopath at the core, thus the potential for harm. I can understand a therapist who is the therapist to just the sociopath would not step in and encourage a victim to leave who was not already trying to leave the relationship, since it is the sociopath they are treating, but I don’t understand them wanting or encouraging the victim to stay either.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
All depends on how deeply entrenched they are in their behavior.. while a true S/P won’t and can’t change.. there are milder forms and people who are acting that way temporarily for other reasons, if they really choose to change, they may have the inner resources to do it. Plus sometimes the victims are just not willing to give up hope right away and will “fire” the therapist for suggesting they move out.
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Stayingsane says:
To everybody
what would it take….for you to accept them back into your life?
I’m asking this to try and anticipate my own blind spot, to try and prepare for any such eventuality….is there anyone here that is living happy ever after with reformed sociopath…even in cancer people can have “spontaneous remissions” and miracle cures….anyone out there with a book about a cured psychopath…?
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Stayingsane says:
It just occurred to me….lookat the quality of person on this site…have you noticed? very articulate, intelligent….caring, balanced….is this a result of having to survive a S or is it the quality that predisposes us to attracting them?
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Hecates path says:
Staying sane & Dr. Leedom,
Wow! I had never read this particular article in all my time reading archived posts. It is an awesome article, Dr. Leedom… again one of those articles I think should be considered a LF “classic” and must read. Thank you, Staying sane, for bringing it back up for commentary.
Interestingly, it is especially timely for me to read this as my therapist has talked with me about another client who is in a very dangerous relationship with a sociopath and the client believes he will somehow “change” or be helped. I will definitely share this information with my therapist so that she can share it and hopefully help this woman save her own life!
The comment about medications changing the spontaneous nature of the sociopath and “All the “fun” part of the sociopath may disappear, leaving you with a boring parasite,” reflected another aspect of ex S. He has a history of seeking medical help for depression, anxiety, headaches, insomnia etc. only to either take them just long enough to feel better and thinks he no longer needs them OR, more often, stop taking them because HE doesn’t like how they make HIM feel… often saying they make him “tired” or “sedated”. (likely feelings he has because he hates perceieved boredom, etc). I am sure he is not isolated in such thinking and behavior as far as sociopaths are concerned.
Finally, Staying sane re: your comment “look at the quality of person on this site…have you noticed? very articulate, intelligent….caring, balanced….is this a result of having to survive a S or is it the quality that predisposes us to attracting them?” :
I personally think that the answer to your question is some combination of “all of the above”.
I also think sociopaths are drawn to the things in us that they lack in themselves whether they see it or not. Just as they are parasitic in other aspects of thier lives, I think they are emotional parasites in the sense that their partners have to “supply” or share with them all the good qualities they are lacking. When my S’s mask came off and I saw just how destructive he could be, I told my therapist that it was as if he had matched my goodness with an equal amount of evil!!! I guess that was a “compliment” to my goodness, LOL!
I have often said that initially my S “mirrored” so much of the good qualities in me, as if he was enamored by the effect and then his “mirroring” changed to where he perceived my good qualities as no longer “reflecting” on him in positive ways… and THEN his grandiosity kicked in as if to say ” how dare YOU reflect my weaknesses! oh wait! *I* have NO weaknesses! YOU are the problem! Must bring you down to size or throw you to the curb!” Classic devalue and discard when we are no longer a positive reflection, right?!
Additionally, there is a LF quiz to assess your risk of being the victim of a sociopath in the links that addresses your question of qualities predisposing us to attracting them. I *think* I scored a 34, but regardless ofthe score I am sure that I scored almost “perfect” as in perfect for attracting such characters! Lucky me, LOL!
Wow this got long – thanks for reading all of this if you stuck it out ’til the end!! And thanks again for the info, Dr. Leedom and to Staying sane for bringing it and your Q’s to the discussion! Have a great day!
Hecate’s Path
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OxDrover says:
To change up General Custer’s quote: “The only GOOD PSYCHOPATH is a dead one.”
Stayingsane if you want to STAY SANE don’t ever let the thought of “curing” a psychopath lure you in.
Dr. Hare says after age 40 many times they ‘calm down” and quit being quite the horrible criminals they were (not robbing and killing as much) but every one I know that is dead was TOXIC right up to the last breath.
Even if let’s say they got 75% better, could you live with that 25% of lies and manipulation? I couldn’t. I don’t want to. Why not just stay away from them and hang with GOOD people who love and respect you.
Psychopaths are HARD WIRED, mostly by genetics, to be what they are. Do you think you can take an old rattle snake and it will become a puppy? Or quit being toxic. Just as “rational” to think a psychopath will “change for the better.”
Lots of people have wasted nearly all or all of their lives hoping against hope that their psychopath will “change” (and oh, sometimes they promise to, but they don’t follow through). I wasted nearly 30 years hoping my son would “reform” and what did I get for my trouble and pain? Attempted to murder me!
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OxDrover says:
ps: stayingsane, that quality of the people here IS AMAZING isn’t it. I have been on several other blogs about suviving and many are filled with people who are cranky (sometimes the managers) or down right nasty, and just argue and don’t get it….not here. Sharp and caring people.
To answer your other question, yep, there are some threads on what makes us vulnerable and I suggest that you read “Women who love psychopaths” there are several things WE have in common just like there are things THEY have in common, and hyper caring is one of them that WE seem to have across the board.
I also suggest that you go back through all the archived articles and read EVERY ONE (will take a while!) because there are so omany good things here that are so informing and make sense both from an emotional standpoint and a scientific standpoint,
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ErinBrockovich says:
Stayingsane:
“what would it take….for you to accept them back into your life?”
Me to be reincarnated into a fool!!!
My self esteem being so low that i fall for the ‘I love you more than anythings’,
The…..your the only woman i will ever love.
The…..please help me’s
The…..I miss ‘us’s
The…..fact that I would be willing to die
Shall I stop now?
You are in the ‘wishy/washy’, question yourself phase…..
Is it me?
Gosh, maybe it is me?
Maybe I am wrong and he really is a great person, I just couldn’t see it…….
Oh, how could I ever live with the thought of letting him go if I was wrong?
Am I making a big mistake here?
OKAY…….this is where the gut comes in….girl, you must listen to your gut and recall the red flags….
For me, I would rather be wrong and away from this person and happy than to be right and still with them.
There are obviously red flags…..reflect on those and ask yourself….is this really what I am worth? IS this really what I want to do forever….support them and get abused in return?
NO WAY JOSE!!!!!
Self respect, boundries, independance, patience, honor to yourself, self control and self love are all way more important then being in even a ‘semi-abusive’ relationship with ANYONE!
THEY DO NOT CHANGE, they have temporary ‘suck back in’ moments and once they are confident they have you ‘back’….the cycle continues.
I KNOW I DID IT FOR 28 years!!!!!
My ex S even at his deposition….several hours of obvious lies, documented deceit that my attorney called him out on…..ended this ‘meeting’ standing at the door, turned around and said with all the heartfelt he could muster……”I LOVE YOU ERIN”……
UH, yeah……OKAY! Luv you to babe, sincerely with all my heart!!!
THIS IS WHAT THEY DO……the suck in…..
It worked for years…..it was what we want to hear/believe etc….
Once the words come out, we suck into them….it’s our own fantasy.
You couldn’t pay me or give me the moon or anything else in this world and beyond to get back with the S. I will spend the rest of my life NC!
Also, it doesn’t matter if they are P’s, S’s, borderlines,Bi-polars, freaks, actors, snakes, monsters, thiefs, murderers or whatever you wish to call your particular problem relationship…..
THEY ARE TOXIC and HIGH CONFLICT, it’s not healthy and we all deserve BETTER!!!!!
We have to be in control of our own minds…..stay strong!
XXOO
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Tilly says:
I just have to warn people that Victor Frankl’s book “mans search for meaning” was used by my ex P to “get me in”. He learned it off by heart and always had it on him and quoted it ad nauseum when he was “courting me”. It worked. I had already told him that I had read that book and that loved it so he used it. I fell in love with a total psychopath disguised as Victor Frankl. I fell in love with Victor Frankl by proxy, all over again.
The extent these snakes in suits will go to is mind boggling.
I am also very impress with this article.
My ex P disguised as “victor frankle” was on very strong anti depressants by day, sleeping pills by night and an alcoholic into the bargain. The rest of the time he played golf, ripped off the health insurance ( for hundreds of thousands) ( he was an unemployed dentist) and spent the rest of the time manipulating people on the phone. He had to take viagra for sex ( he hid this fact for a year). All in all he was just what you would think Victor Frankl would be like (NOT!!!!).
I used to wonder what he would be like on anti psychotics ( a chemical straight jacket), but I have since seen sociopaths on them and I think they are just a bit slower.
When my ExP dentist dropped his anti depressent he became a million times more aggressive and deceitfula nd criminal.
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Tilly says:
Oxy:
Your post about your p son is so good for me. When I finally realised (with your help), that my daughter, ” for a FACT ..DID NOT ONLY NOT LOVE ME, HE HATED ME, he WANTED ME DEAD so he could have what I had worked for and he felt he deserved to have”. It was like an epiphany! I did not want to believe it and I still have days where I feel guilt (FOG) but the truth is in my heart, that I have to let her go. That in fact – SHE HAS ALREADY GONE MANY MANY YEARS AGO! I cannot deny it because it is so obvious. And I will have a ceremony eventually. I have got rid of her pictures around the room and her “stuff”, which helped me enormously.
My daughter died, in fact, with this daughter, in retrospect I believe she was born a psychopath. Like her father. He is a murdering criminal psychopath that NO-ONE would suspect. He LOOKS like one, but his charm and wit and humour is so disarming you would never know. He still roams free like a crocodile.
My daughter looks like an angel from heaven and can cry at a seconds notice. Her smile lights up the world . She has the charm and manners and wit and intelligence of a fantsy princess. She is too good to be true.
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Tilly says:
She told my youngest gentle son a few weeks ago that ALL SHE HAD EVER FELT TOWARDS ME IN HER WHOLE LIFE WAS GUILT AND JEALOUSY.
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Brilhancy says:
ErinBrockvich,
A very scary ref flag that just send chivers to my spine. On an occasion of extreme abuse (not physical abuse) I was so hurt that I sat outside and took a bottle of Tia maria ( I do not drink ever) and start stargazing in despair. Without thinking of what I was doing I started drink the Tia Maria with empty stomach. Offcouse after a few hours I was sick. I hardly could walk. I sat at the shower and shivering talking to myself ‘do not fall asleep
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justabouthealed says:
Billancy, yes whenever someone has that strong of a negative effect on us it is a clear sign to run as far away from them as you can.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
Even at the time in 1991 when he murdered that girl, and I was in such grief and pain (even though eh denied it I “knew” it was so) that his life was permanently ruined, I kept feeling I wanted to change places with that girl’s mother because it would have been easier for ME. At least when your kid is murdered the friends, church, neighbors, etc. come and mourn with you, but with me, I was BLAMED by the cops (oh, I wish you could have heard how they talked to me! Like I had done it by giving birth to him!) My husband’s niece who had taken him in (against my advice) to protect th epoor dear from his harsh mother, blamed me….he blamed me! the only one who didn’t blame me was my husband, God rest his soul!
Tilly, I know it is difficult to “give up” on someone you gave birth to, and so many people will tell you in all sincerity “oh, s/he’s your son/daughter hhow could you ever stop loving them (and putting up with their crap!)” But I can tell you I have NO love for the MAN my baby became, and my baby is GONE, DEAD, BURIED.
It sort of happened suddenly I was blogging here and I just got up went to the photos and took out everything of him over about age 12 and cut him out of our photo album, then I had my little “memorial service” for my dead baby, and I cried and grieved, and it was like a GREAT WEIGHT was off my shoulders.
Like you, tilly, I’ve had run ins with multiple Ps and when you are grieving for the losses of multiple situations and traumas, you think you have one “handled” but another pops up, and then the first one pops up again too, it takes TIME and thought and “processing” of these thoughts and emotions. it isn’t just like building say a house, where you lay a foundation then the walls and floor and then the roof, you build the foundation, someone blows it up, you rebuild it, then put the floor on and the wind knocks it down, the you start over again, etc. etc. It is more, I think, like planting a garden, and sometimes the weather or winds blow your crops down, but you cant start over cause it is too late in the year, or you cant find more seed, or the weeds take over cause your tractor breaks down, so your plot of ground goes back to weeds and brush, and you have to reclear the ground again, but this time with a hoe instead of a tractor, but then you fall and break your arm….it just seems never ending.
I think we must just take each day as we find it, work the best we can, and then put our heads on the pillows and say “I did all I can do”
We may never see the ‘reasons’ for the things that have happened, our why, or why we didn’t take action sooner, and all I can say is “i wasn’t ready yet THEN” but “I AM READY NOW!”
IN my own little garden plot this year I have not spent as much time taking care of it as I could have (should? have?) so some of the weeds are there, but in spite of the weeds we have had more squash than we could ‘say grace over” and fresh herbs and spices and garlic, and a few tomotoes…so rather than castigating myself for the weeds, I am grateful for the produce in spite of them. Today I made yogurt and cheese from the goat milk and ate it on some of the nicest rye melba toast with herbs and a fresh slice of tomato, and I felt so RICH and SATISFIED as I shared this treat with a friend and with my sons. It is the little things in life that make it RICH and SATISFYING.
Tonight I am tired, but in a good way, from doing something creative (cheese making is as much an art as a science) and life affirming, something that people have done in log cabins, brick mansions, palaces and mud huts for tens of thousands of years…those small comforts and creative efforts are my life and my pleasure.
Now to bed a tired old lady, satisfied and happy and grateful to God that my son’s biopsy came back OK. Thanks fo rall your prayers Tilly, it hellps me to know you are there rooting for me and cheering me on!@ Love oxy
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Brilhancy says:
justabouthealed, ErinBrockvich,
Ups…. had a computer problem. the mssage was sent without me finishing it.
A very scary red flag that just sent chivers to my spine. On an occasion of extreme abuse (not physical abuse) I was so hurt that I sat outside and took a bottle of Tia maria ( I do not drink ever) and start stargazing in despair. Without thinking of what I was doing I started drink the Tia Maria with empty stomach. Offcouse after a few hours I was sick. I hardly could walk. I sat at the shower and shivering talking to myself ‘do not fall asleep, continuing…….keep your eyes open. The S by then came to the shower and set there smiling…..brummmmmmm
After a while he took me to my bed..wet clothes and all and set there beside me…..I hardly could talk…he even did not boder to give me a pair of dry clothes. He sat there holding my pulse and I saying to myself…do not fall sleep…
Anyway…I was so stupid that I though his gesture was nice…after all he is not that bad…
This same man would rush to hospital for the most simple thing in the past…the kids could not have a cut in there fingers that there he was most concerned.
How come he did not boder to take me to hospital? Instead sitting in there holding my pulse..
Now remember, the only bill he never forgot to pay was a life insurence on me. and early on he sad: the best thing that could happen to him was if I die because he would get money from my Life Insurance.
Well…..that night when he was holding my pulse and I thought it was a nice gesture from him…I now know that he was hopping that I die….
The next day he said to the kids: Mum was really drunk last night…and the kids What?
Bastard he was hopping that I die and made those comments for the kids to think really bad about me..offcourse never told the reasons why I was so sick…and what his done afterwards…
How could I not see that by then….my God he was quitly doing everything for me to die….pushing me to the limits ..
For jis disapointment I AM VERY WELL AND VERY ALIVE…
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Betty says:
Dear Oxy,
WHOOP!
That’s great news about your son! I’m so happy for you guys! (It’s really hard to do the Happy Dance and type at the same time!)
I love it that you make cheese! I’ve tried it, with disasterous (and smelly) results, and I buy all mine now because I choose life, but it is very cool to be able to make it yourself!
Brilhancy,
Nobody should ever have to go through something that awful — but you did come through it, and you even figured out what he was up to!
And you’re here, safe and sound. That is brilliant!
BIGhugs!
Betty
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ErinBrockovich says:
Oxy:
I am over the moon about your sons biopsy!
I can’t tell you……I just never ever wish to hear about another person having melanoma.
Just 2 months ago….I had a VERY dear friend pass away. It’s a nasty, horrible disease…..and the treatment is dreadful……and usually unsuccessful!
My friend fought like a banshee…..for 16 months…..every step bad news……treatments after treatment and on to 3 different trials in Bethesda.
He died like he lived….in control of his destiny.
He was heli skiing just two months prior to passing. I still laugh at him telling me as he was 3 days prior to departure to Canada for heli sk…. He was waiting for a call from the Dr’s…..he said he needed to have a quick Brain surgery before he left to go Heliskiing…..UH
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ErinBrockovich says:
Eeekks….
whats going on here? It’s not posting the whole post>!!??
Anyways…..
My friend went heli skiing and came home and immediately had the surgery….he never really was the same from the surgery…..
BUT>…..he lived and did what he wanted. accepted the cards he was dealt with wisdom and a tenaciious fight.
He is my ispiration and I will always feel him close……I will always hear him chuckle when I overcome an asshole move from the S…..He loved hearing about what I was up to on my counter attacks…..he loved it, it inspired me to keep going.
He gave me fight! He gave me strength. I gave him a diversion from his own fight…..
I am so grateful I got to share the end result with him……he saw it full circle……from planning the wedding, child bearing, investments, houses, jobs, questioning and becoming aware of these behaviors….He gave me strength my whole adult life.
He was thrilled to hear about the last court date, he laughed at every statement. He said “good for you Erin, I knew you could do it, I am proud of how far you have come’.
Those words meant so much coming from him!
He was a GEM!!!! He knew the S and he “GOT IT”, he stuck up for me, he was there when I needed someone to be there, he was ther when I was sick, I was there when he got sick…..we shared a lot of life, love and laughter….sadness, strength and tears……
He was a man of honor, integrity and faithfullness.
He is my friend.
Hug your son close, I am so glad he will not experience that ugly journey!
XXOO
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OxDrover says:
Dear Erin,
Thank you for the story about your friend! That is wonderful, you know, I think the “shared experience” of someone we love’s death can be some of the most meaningful time to them and to us. My beloved stepfatehr and I shared his 18 month journey and he and I had some wonderful and close times. I still laugh about his jokes and his dry sense of humor and one-lines off the top of his head! It sounds like you share those same kinds of memories with your wonderful friend. those are memories that will comfort and warm you the rest of your life, and I know that having you there with him was benefical adn comforting fo rhim as well as for you.
Yes, I am glad lmy son’s biopsy turned out negative, I could see the relief in his eyes when he got the results. he was being stoic about it outwardly but I know he must have been worried about it inside. (He’s too much like me!!! LOL)
Thank all of you for your prayers, concerns and good wishes for my son about his biopsy. I am so fortunate to have him back alive and well from that nearly 8 yr. marriage-from-hell with his P X-wife. Not only back physically but emotionally as well.
Erin, I have been blessed by having several really CLOSE friends that have never never let me down, not many, I think a person is fortunate to have one or two of this kind of friend. these friends are there for you in good times and bad, and the more you share the stronger the bond grows. My best friend lives 7 hours from me, but we have mantained a CLOSE friendship in spite of that and visit and e mail and phone often and keep our friendship intact. We’ve been through the bad times for each other and the shared the good as well. there is nothing I wouldn’t do for her that was within my power. I KNOW that she had already done the same for me. Even though your friend is gone from your sight, he remains in your heart. My step father is as close to me now as he was when he was living and I can actually “ask him questions” about “what would you advise, daddy?” and if I sit quietly and LISTEN I can almost hear him telling me what to do. He was sharp and intuitive about people, and his advise was kind and firm and never bad. Sometimes I will dream about a problem and he will come to the dream and tell me the answer as if we had a visit in teh flesh. Those we love and who loved us are always with us. (((hugs)))) and God bless
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Tilly says:
OXY:
TOWANDA! We beat the biopsy! AWESOME! xoxo(((OXY”S SON))).
I loved your analogy of the garden and the house and the cheese… you should write a fiction book Oxy, I wanted the story to go on forever!
Thankyou so much for being there Oxy, you have/are
helping me more than you will ever know.I wouldn’t be able to make it (as far as my P kids go) without you.oxxoxoxoxo
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ANewLily says:
OxDrover, I just popped in to let you know that I, too, am so relieved that C’s biopsy turned out negative!
As you know, I just got “back” my second daughter, not physically yet, but emotionally, only to find out this morning that a mass has been found on her gallbladder. They think it is from the years of meds she’s taken for gluten intolerance but is a concern.
This morning she told me that an MRI will show more on Monday.
I am fighting the desire to cancel my own medical procedures scheduled for Tuesday and be ready to fly “home” if needed.
Tilly, I’ve been following your teeth problems, too. I hope you have felt my prayers. Abcesses are painful but I’ll bet you agree that the physical pain is easier to handle (but barely) than the emotional pain of living with/defending ourselves from an N/P/S, including your P teacher and friend!
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Tilly says:
ANEWLILY:
Yes thankyou, I have felt your prayers! And you are so right ANL…I HAVE HAD MY TWO TEETH PULLED OUT!!! And ever since I did NO MORE PAIN!!! (TOTALLY UNLIKE DEFENDING OURSELVES FROM A SOCIOPATH?PSYCHOPAT AYE LILY!!!LOL!)
And now i look like the angry raging monster i sometimes feel, so people will think twice about crossing me (ROTFLMAO)!
And I don’t have the thousands they want so I will be looking like this for quite awhile. God sure has a sense of humour…I wish I could bump into my exP dentist in a dark alley(shining a torch under my chin) now! (Rosa would like that one!)
And it is a relief to be out of the dating stakes completly. I intend on giving my P teacher a BIG SMILE tomorrow and see what comes pouring out of her mouth! lol!
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Tilly says:
P.S. If you cancel your appointment I will twang you with my boomerang. Prayers for your 2nd daughter. xo
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Tilly says:
Wish we could pull out the sociopath just as easy and toss him in the bin and be immediately free of pain !
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PInow says:
LOL Tilly.
Reading the posts from yesterday. Thank you to all who have shared kind words with me. Tilly, you just used a word I can relate to: Did anyone feel like they had a Psycho-PET? I mean, really… Sometimes, looking back I recall the feeling like he was a pet. He was so parasitic, but good for wagging, when I was around. It’s incredible how the Pet was out destroying, but home in time to wag his “front” tail in what was described in another post “sexual aggressive master act”. Incredible how I’d let it go on. well, I did not: I stumped my feet, I called on every saint, and it got to the point when I prayed I could no longer pray for him as a part of my family, and wondered why. I tried harder and harder, and then to total dismay I started having a daily drink to “take the stress off”, which I had never done before or since. Psycho = pet – can we pull them out like a bad tooth?
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PInow says:
http://www.reuters.com/article.....dChannel=0
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justabouthealed says:
http://www.reuters.com/article.....NI20090807
Just so no one misses it, the above link is the second page, this is the first page. Thanks for the great article!!!
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