Sociopaths pretending to be religious
PDF Sociopaths like to cloak themselves in a mantel of respect. They seek careers, or pretend to have careers, in fields that people associate with good character, trustworthiness, and authority, such as law enforcement, the military and the clergy.
Pursuing a career in religion or spirituality is particularly useful for sociopaths. People tend to trust religious figures simply because they are religious figures, which puts a sociopath several moves ahead when trying to scam someone. A sociopath claiming an inside track to God has a very powerful tool when it comes to manipulating people.
Plus, for a sociopath, a career in the clergy is easy—the primarily visible job requirement is an ability to talk. With typical inborn charisma, and a willingness to lie about other credentials, the sociopath is a shoo-in.
Lovefraud has written about several pseudo-members of the clergy whose behavior has certainly flouted the Ten Commandments:
Anthony Owens claimed to be bishop of a fellowship of more than 100 non-denominational churches, which was a lie. He was married to eight women at the same time.
Rabbi Fred Neulander founded the largest Jewish temple in southern New Jersey. He was convicted of arranging the murder of his wife.
Terry Hornbuckle founded a megachurch in Arlington, Texas. He was found guilty of raping three women, two of whom were parishioners.
Then, of course, there’s Fred Brito, who impersonated a Catholic priest, even performing a couple’s wedding, when he had no religious training whatsoever.
Lovefraud readers have told us of more cases. AlohaTraveler says her “Bad Man” had been a pastor for an Assemblies of God church in Seattle. Another woman has built a website about the real reason a reverend abruptly departed from the First Presbyterian Church of Fort Lauderdale, Florida—an extramarital affair with her.
Fake believers
Even sociopaths who aren’t clergy put religion to work in their manipulation. Here are some examples from the Lovefraud mailbag:
- A woman married a guy who was a “Christian” teacher (her quotes) in schools for 14 years. He abandoned her after six months and started an affair with another woman, all the while talking about reconciliation. She then found out she was his eighth or ninth wife, and he had previously been convicted of bigamy.
- A guy met a woman in a Christian chat room on the Internet. He was in the process of getting a divorce; she claimed she was also. He left everything and moved to her state to be with her. She taught at a Christian school half-days, and would meet him—for sex—after work. She was still married.
- Girl starts dating guy when she is 18. They belonged to the same Christian faith, which did not allow premarital sex; all their dates were chaperoned. When she was 20, they had a fairytale wedding. That night, he raped her, then started gaslighting her, and convinced a doctor that she was crazy, until she ended up on psychotropic drugs.
- A woman’s ex-husband claims to be a Christian minister. “The church is a fraud to bilk people out of money. He helps the other pastor get money from poor people who can’t afford it,” she writes. “When he raped me and tried to kill me, and when he and his daughter broke into my house, well the cops saw him wearing preacher pants and didn’t believe me.”
- Woman meets a guy on a Christian singles site—they both sang, did music ministry, and had an “intense desire to serve the Lord.” They married, started their own church, then she finds out he owed $30,000 in child support and was addicted to hardcore porn. He became physically abusive.
- Woman marries a 51-year-old Catholic school teacher who is an Episcopalian priest, retired military, widowed after 29 years of marriage. Two months into the marriage, his son moves in with them. The son was selling and using cocaine, and her new husband—the priest—was in business with him.
Predators are everywhere
Lovefraud has heard of many more cases in which sociopathic predators were fishing for victims in churches and on religious dating websites. We’ve heard of sociopaths who quoted the Bible, prayed every day, and emotionally tortured their families.
And then there are the sociopaths who use religion as a reason to keep bleeding their victims. Christian religions, and New Age spiritualism, embrace the concept of forgiveness. Sociopaths use this to claim that they’ve “found God” who has forgiven their transgressions, and you should too.
The key point here is that just because someone claims to be Christian, religious, or otherwise spiritual, does not mean he or she is automatically trustworthy. If your instincts are telling you that something is wrong, no matter what the context, pay attention.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
kat_o_nine_tales says:
All true.. but I really feel like Lib too even though I have “enforced” no contact now.. I miss his arms dreadfully. I do not miss his bad side, but I miss his warm side. I just hope to god I never give in to these feelings again.
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newworld view says:
i agree with holy ws….its like a sporting event…waiting for each side to make a play….and that only prolongs the pain for you….you could send an e mail that all his things will be out front for pick up on either blank or blank day…he can email which is better……..if they are not picked up by that date they will go to goodwill or salvation army…the end…YOU control that…..sometime hanging on to his things is a fantasy that things will return to how they were…THEY NEVER WILL..i tell you this A: because you ask and B: because in doing so i am also telling myself……it is not coming from a place of: i have all the answers…it is coming from a place of:we are in this battle together and lets help each other win and find peace……….sincerely, terri
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OxDrover says:
The comment about a “sporting event” and each side making a play, is so RIGHT ON with these psychopaths. When you do X they automatically do Y to counter your “play.”
In reading the letters that my P-son wrote to his Trojan Horse P in manipulating our family, the “plays” were SO APPARENT. He had even coached the TH-P on how to do the religious parts, and advised him of various ways to appeal to my mother’s “pious” side so that she would feel like she had “saved” the TH-P.
When his plans feel through, and everything came to light and we stopped contact, when he HAD NO MORE INFORMATION, he went ballistic! Shooting in the “dark” without any idea what was going on here. NOT KNOWING which play to make, he tried them all, the pity letter, “Oh, poor me” and then the “angry letter” “you are letting me down” and the controling one “Give me a chance to fix this, I cann fix this” and then wrote to others to get THEM to call us and plead his case. Wrote to a minister friend of ours saying how we were not true Christians because we would not give him “UNconditional love”—I guess that meant that when we found out he was trying to kill us, we quit writing him, instead of pitying him, and horror of horrors, his money supply got cut off. LOL
If they have NO CONTACT, they don’t know which “play” out of the “Psychopaths play book” they need to use. CONTACT and knowledge of how you are doing seems to be necessary for them to figure out the next move. How can you play tennis if you can’t see your opponent? How can you play golf if you don’t know which direction the hole lies? I think the thing that makes NO CONTACT so effective is that it takes away their ability to know which play to put into action. It deprives them of INFORMATION necessary to perfect their ploys. To pick the perfect manuver to hook us back in.
Next week will be the one year anniversary of the arrest of the Trojan HOrse P and my X-DIL for trying to kill my son C. Except for two payments of $25 each that my mother sent my P-son, he has had no contact at all from any of us, no response from any of the telephone calls he conned others into making for him. NO INFORMATION about how we are doing. No information even indirectly about how we are doing. All he knows is that the plot blew up, his two confederates both went to jail and his entire family quit communicating with him.
The information I have had about him, indirectly, and from the letters he continues to write to others, shows that he is FRUSTRATED TO THE MAX. He is furious that he is no longer in control. He is angry because he NO LONGER HAS AN AVENUE TO MANIPULATE US. All attempts have failed. NO RESPONSE is TOXIC to him. It is like pouring salt on his wounds, because he felt like he was SO IN CONTROL and now, NO CONTROL, NO INFORMATION. Nothing he does, no play that he puts out there, has any response. No feed back at all. The ultimate defeat of a psychopath. In my P-son’s case, there isn’t even a new victim available.
There was so long after I had “written him off” that I kept writing to him, TELLING HIM OFF, but that gave him information to USE AGAINST ME. At least with him, I no longer even have a twinge of wanting to “tell him off” because I KNOW HOW IT MAKES HIM SQUIRM to not have any information.
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Lib says:
Thank you Ox Drover, newworld view, kat_o_nine_tales, holywatersalt and aloha:
You are right, it does seem like a slow moving tennis match right now, and I’m rationalizing in my head that tennis is better than a fast paced hockey game for a relationship. I know how ridiculous this is.
I feel I need some type of closure. Just getting rid of his stuff isn’t going to be enough. Ox, how long did you write those letters before you stopped? Did it make you feel better to write? How many of you contacted the other “victims”? Did you fell better or worse? I read somewhere “Hell hath no fury like a woman dubed by a sociopath.” I am not a vindictive person, but I need to do something!
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
OMG Lib I wrote and wrote and wrote.. I called, visited and begged. Then I left him alone for months, tried to forget him.. and lo and behold who should come knocking on my door one day.
Well though I agonized over it, I ended up breaking up with a really nice honest man to go back with him. Unfortunately I didn’t do it quickly enough, or something, because he immediately started ignoring me again, and insisted it was “my request” that he let me go.
Years ago I wrote letters aplenty to my husband to try and make him understand what I was going through. I was later stunned to find him and his P-mother trying to use them against me in court. It hurt and scared me so much that to this day I am afraid to write down any of my feelings for fear someone will find them and use them against me.
Write, talk if ya gotta, but I think these guys are right in saying, get his crap outta your house and it will be a start.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lib,
I went to visit my son in January of 07, and I saw in that face to face visit that he was indeed PROUD of the murder he committed, not ashamed, not remorseful, that he was actually proud that he was a “billy bad ass.” DUH? And then seconds later, and I mean SECONDS later, the mask came back down and he was saying “But Mommmm, what would Jesus do?” HUH? The words from Robert Hare’s book “Without Conscience” came ringing in my ears—and I knew that I would never visit him again. But I wrote him letters to try to explain WHY until April or somewhere in that neighborhood. All the while he is plotting to KILL ME…he used the letters that I wrote to him to convince my mother I was crazy…and I am sure that many of them would have sounded crazy to someone who didn’t know how my heart had been ripped out. How badly I was hurting, knowing that my son not only was a killer but a stone-cold killer proud of what he did.
I too “wanted closure”—but not only me but many people on this site have BEGGED for some kind of closure from the psychopaths and THE ONLY CLOSURE I GOT WAS FROM ME. I had to MAKE MY OWN CLOSURE. Maybe some people get “closure” from the Psychopath, but my thoughts are that FEW of us do. I got closrue with the DIL and the Trojan Horse of a sort, when they were hauled off to jail. Plus, I didn’t have an emotional relationship with either of them so there was no “love lost” there.
With my mother though, I had to make my own closure…she wasn’t going to admit her own lies, or her enabling of my psychopathic son. The only way we got her to quit sending him money and letters was that my other biological son C told her that if he caught her doing that and found out that he would go NO CONTACT with her as well, and then she would have NO ONE that would even speak to her from the family. She would be TOTALLY alone.
I think making our OWN closure, setting that boundary of NO CONTACT is probably as close as we can come to getting “closure.”
Even after you set a PHYSICAL No Contact boundary, and enforce it, there is another type of “boundary” or No contact and that is “emotional no contact” where you quit renting them space in your head. You quit missing them, quit wanting to “explain” to them, or “get them to see”—Aloha and I both admitted that for weeks, months, we would drive down the road “talking to them” in our heads or outloud, just like we were actually TALKING to them. We both joked that other drivers must have thought we were CRAZY WOMEN beating on the dashboards, and yelling at the windshields.
I’m not sure how long I went on doing that, but for quite a while. But then one day I realized I wasn’t doing it any more. I can even think about my P son now and not feel sad, mad, frustrated, angry, and there isn’t anything I want to tell him any more. I don’t worry about his physical safety, I don’t even want to know if he is healthy or not. I guess if he is dead the prison will notify us, but my sons and I have decided that we will not claim the body. The “boy” we loved is “dead” he just doesn’t have a grave. The prison can bury the “man” that “murdered my son” and took over his body. The “Man” is a stranger, and I don’t know him. I don’t want to know him. He isn’t part of my life. The little boy “disappeared” years ago, to be replaced by someone whose heart is evil.
When my husband died, I knew he would not come back, when my sweet little boy “died” I kept hoping I could keep him on “life support” until the man he became returned to being the son I loved. It didn’t happen. It couldn’t happen. So I had to make my own closure for the “death” of the boy I loved. Bury him in my heart, and accept that he is “gone.”
The person you thought loved you is “no more” and is “gone” though the body may be walking around, just like my son’s is. But the persons we both loved never existed in reality they were a fantasy, projected like a hologram. They looked real, our love for them was real, but the relationship was one sided, it wasn’t mutual. It felt like it was real, and that felt wonderful. But now it is gone. That is our closure, the only closure we can get. We can’t fix it, we can’t return to it, it is DEAD AND GONE. We grieve over the loss. The loss was REAL to us.
We were victimized because we cared, because we could love. We were sold a “bottle of snake oil” as “genuine love” but it turned out to be fake, so we are disappointed, and rightly so. We were scammed, Conned, used, abused, treated like dirt. That hurts. If my son had been killed in a car wreck or an accident like my husband it would have been awful, but I think NOT HALF SO PAINFUL as knowing that the child I bore became a man who wants me dead so he can have my possessions that I worked for, and he feels entitled to.
The sad fact is if I had a magic wand and could get him out of prison tomorrow and give him $100 million in gold, it would not be a week before he had done something illegal, immoral and criminal…it is the THRILL of doing something bad that he loves. It isn’t the money itself, it is the “game” he enjoys playing. Impressing himself and others with what a Billy Bad Ass he is.
The only consolation I have is that NO CONTACT frustrates his plans, his con, renders him POWERLESS and IMPOTENT to accomplish his games. That’s as close to “justice” as I can get for him. That and doing my best to see that he spends the rest of his natural life in prison.
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Lib says:
Thank you all for this outlet!
I know I need to find my own closure. I know I will not get closure from him. He brags that he can go back to any of the women he has had relationships with and be their friend. This has made me think in the past that I am whacko or that I must be as stupid as those women. Surely out of the 600 or so women he has been with, one or two of them have experienced what I am going through. This makes me want to contact them for my closure, but I don’t know if I should.
Tonight, a girlfriend from work will be helping me deliver the rest of his summer clothes and shoes to his new place, while he is at work. She is then taking me to a comedy club to celebrate one week since he has been to my home. Baby steps.
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Beverly says:
Sorry Lib, but I had to do a double take! How many women??!? I think if I found out a partner of mine had been with that many women, I would be running a mile without any conversation whatsoever. Problem is that we dont often know at first what their history is, they will often edit, or omit certain details. During my time with the exN and when we had a break, much to his annoyance, I went and spoke to his ex girlfriend about him, and then as things started to reveal themselves as not right, I realised that he had been completely different with her and I realised that he had modified his behaviour in the relationship, in a sense he had dragged his baggage from his last gf into the relationship with us. If only they came with a log book of prior history, rather like a car, it would be so much easier.
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henry says:
My X bragged about his friend’s. He would call them often and leave messages and they never returned his calls. I even had him a big birthday party and invited his so called friend’s, none showed up. One time when we were arguing I said you don’t have any friend’s and he said “yes I do, If I really pushed it” all of his friend’s are new friend’s they don’t stay around for long. Beside’s he preferred the company of stranger’s.
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henry says:
Lib congrats on the one week!! It is week 16 for me, it get’s better……..
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Beverly says:
Henry, my ex had only one friend who had fathered 6 kids by 6 different women and he punched the women and this man, although in his late 40s is like a kid. I kept thinking – now what would my ex see in a friend like THAT??? Now i realise, it is like finding the meaning to all those odd things they did.
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OxDrover says:
[Quote Henry] “all his friends are new friends, they don’t stay around for long.”
When they first meet him they think he is cool and nice, but very quickly they see he is not nice or cool and is a user and they drop him.
[Quote Henry] “he preferred the company of strangers”
Strangers haven’t yet caught on to him and he can get positive feed back from them for a short time. He has found that people who know him quickly move on, so he keeps his ego intact by a continual meeting of new people for a short time. I think people who hang out in clubs or bars on a regular basis use this as a way of life for socializing because it is all so superfiscial and short term. A perfect hunting ground for psychopaths to latch on to new victims.
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blondie says:
has anyone ever read When Your Lover Is A Liar by Susan Foward? this is book is great, i suggest everyone read it. they have a section about sociopaths. if anyone has read it let me know what you think?
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Lib says:
Beverly:
You read correctly. This S. did come with a log book of sorts. He gave me three of his journals to read over the last 15 years since he haas been clean. In 1999 he had been with well over 300 women he had counted and just lumped all the dial a date meet ups as one. In 2005, when I met him, he talked of repeating the same behaviors over and over, including all the sex to boost his self esteem and trying to keep the lust under control. Without his knowledge, I have read his 4th step which included a list of women he could remember, what he thought of them and what he got from the sex. He also listed the first, second and third woman that he had hit. He seemed remorseful in his private writings. I didn’ t read any of this until the last couple of months and I have not mentioned any of it to him.
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OxDrover says:
Lib, just because in his “private” writings he seemed remorseful doesn’t mean he wasn’t purposely saying these things to SHOW others. My son was really good at that sort of wrting. FAKE FAKE FAKE. But he was good at it.
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Lib says:
I just got home from celebrating one week w/o him in my home. One of the comedians I saw talked about part-time christians, fake men, and how sex and weed rules over Jesus for black men. It was really funny, but interesting to watch all the women laugh who could relate to this and seamingly just accept it.
I then took the rest of S’s clothes to his home. He was there. He left work early because he had “words” with the nurse. Big surprise, he’ll probably get fired from this job too. I didn’t turn the van off or get out of my seat. As he took out the large container of clean, folded summer clothes, the hamper full of clean socks and underwear, he complained and tried to argue about the three trash bags of dirty clothes becuase I didn’t wash them. I gave him the facts on his clothes and didn’t buy into his negative stuff. He called before I got home to apologize for “snaping on me” and wanted to see how I was doing. This reinforces what I need to do. Things really happen for a reason.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Dear Oxy,
), so incredibly wise. My heart goes out to you so much for having your own flesh and blood turn on you like that. My first husband was just the same way, even admitted years later that he was plotting to murder me (ya think? he was outright practicing)
You are like a mother to us here, (no reference to age implied
I remember lying in bed one night and I got this weird feeling. I opened my eyes, it was black dark that night, but I could hear someone breathing. He had climbed in the window. He climbed onto the bed and pulled off my clothes, then put his hands around my throat. He had done this before as a “joke”, but this time I knew he was not pretending.
Even this attempt on my life was laced with psychological terror. He was reminding me that he could get into our house no matter how much I locked it up, because it was so old and there were so many cracks and broken panes (his work as well).
The use of his bare hands was also a message. When we were in karate class together we all used to play a game where we tried to break raw potatoes by squeezing them. He was the only one who could do it, they would not only break they would explode. He was a carpet man for many years and had the strongest fingers I’ve ever seen.
This time I played dumb, I played along, I pretended he was “only” trying to rape me, (one of his favorite pastimes) instead of murder me. I pretended I wanted sex with this murderous man, and I escaped with my life.
But through it all I had one consolation, my kids were faithful. Sometimes they fell for his lies temporarily, sometimes they were confused about what was true, but he never succeeded in turning them against me.
I have one son who is very much like his father. I am trying my best to bring him up right, trying my best to warn him about the consequences of becoming a sociopath. Sometimes he will take one step in that direction, such as putting me down when he is angry about having to do chores.
This used to hurt me, but now I see it for what it is, he’s trying out the persona. So now I tell him, “Nice try, very much like your dad. I hope for your sake and mine that is not the path you choose in life.. but for now, since you are still under my roof, because you chose to show your anger by disrespecting me, now you are doing double chores. (can only hope it all sinks in, but all his sibs are watching him too.. )
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
And oh .. Lib.. two thumbs up!!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
I hope you are successful in directing your son in the proper path, but if he choses not to take the proper path, the only thing I can say is to cut the string when you recognize that there is nothing else you can do. It hurts to “give up” on your kid, but when they are psychopaths there is nothing else to do. Especially if they go the criminal route. Mine chose that criminal route and it was like he was DETERMINED to go to prison.
I don’t take being called “like a mother” as an insult at all, I enjoyed being a mother, and I still do, but now I don’t boss the kids around as they are men and they “boss me around” now. LOL “Mom, get off that ladder NOW” “Mom, quit doing that you’re gonna kill yourself” “Mom, let me do this, sit down and you can supervise me, but let me do it.” LOL
They tell me if I don’t “behave” now, that when I get infirm, they will put me in a nursing home, take my teeth away and feed me lumpy oatmeal with a straw! LOL
Kat, that must have been very scary for you with your X–I can’t even imagine how you kept your cool through that. I hope he has lost his murderous rage at you.
Lib–so he was mad cause you didn’t WASH all his clothes! OH WELLL!!!!! I hope you’ve got all his stuff out of your house so you don’t have to even answer the phone for him any more. Good going!
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newworld view says:
kat….how absolutely frightening for you….shows how utterly impulsive they are….maybe he came in with a plan and your quick thinking allowed his childish impulses to forget why he was really there…shudderring!!!!!!!!!
and lib you are a far kinder person than i…….i let him know when his junk would be outside and had a prearranged police car there to oversee his picking up his junk and getting out…..i had just bought him a steve mcqueen tag huer watch and decided NOT to put it in the pile nor the very nice ties i had just bought him and he had the gall to leave a message asking for them….and he was going to get an attorney to get his slot cars back……i had taken many items to the salvation army and perhaps these were some of the things……go ahead..i felt get an atty to get back SLOT cars?? i didnt even know what they were…how childish………..what a jerk……i DID get a letter from a WOMAN atty and responded that they could do what they needed, but common sense says why would i return big item and keep stupid childish slot cars….that ended that……..but oh how much that atty really didnt know
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Thx guys for sympathy.. god that was so many years ago it feels like it happened to somebody else. Of course I didn’t tell anyone about it for a long time… they would not have believed me. I was so shocked to find myself alive at the end of this relationship.
Oxy.. heck no he hasn’t lost his rage at me. In his mind I ruined his life by having his kids (how I’m not sure, since he never visits them or pays for them) I’ve become his backstory and scapegoat, whenever he moves on to new pastures. My only safety from him lies in NC and being moved to the “back burner” of his mind.
He’s also expanded his rage, and my daughter is afraid he has now murdered his gf. She has disappeared, and their apt. building mysteriously burnt down right after that, and now he has left the state and is hiding out somewhere out West. He keeps sending my daughter messages saying he is back together with his gf, and that she is “very ill” and will likely die.
About my son.. I will never give up on him, but neither will I ever enable him. We have a pretty good relationship, and he has way more conscience than his dad, so we are all pretty hopeful but like I said, watchful.
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newworld view says:
dear kat…….pls have someone, even anonymously, give that info to police somewhere….PLEASE
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OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
I agree with NEWWORLDVIEW–I think the police MUST BE TOLD about the GF’s disappearance and the burning of the building. It is not outrageous (given the things you have told us about this man) that indeed he did kill her. My son is a murder, and has attempted to have ME killed (you see why I advised you to cut the cord if you see ANYONE i s a psychopath) and I know of at least TWO people my bio-father actually killed (he claimed more) so I am WELL aware of what these RAGEFUL P’s can do. Sometimes these people go on to being serial killers and a phone call to alert the police is all the need to “get on to” these people. You don’t have to let them know who you are. At least think about it.
My son is in prison for the first (known) murder and I will make it my life’s work to see that he stays there the REST of his natural life because I have no doubt that if he gets out I will either have to go back into hiding or eventually kill him to protect myself. If he gets out after I am dead and gone, he will go after his brothers and/or some unsuspecting fools that get into his way. Your X sounds just like my P-bio father or my P-son. They are the worst of the worst, the RABID predators without any fear at all. I am thankful to God that you got out alive. I’m also glad that your son has a conscience, that’s a big plus in your and his favor!
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
I am going to give it to the police but it would be filed away somewhere if I did it now, because I do not know her last name, or where he went. My daughter and I are trying to find all this stuff out then I will most definitely take it to the police and also try to make sure they investigate it.. BUT.. there is no way I will confront him because I will be next.
I escaped from him once.. I do not know if I will be so lucky next time. My poor daughter is having a battle of wills with him over the e-mail, with both of them trying to pump the other for information.
One of our biggest concerns is he is trying to find out info on my oldest son who just got back from Iraq. If he does find him, my son’s combat pay will be gone in a flash, as he is no match for his dad’s manipulative ways.
My daughter is trying to get him to let her speak to the gf on the phone, because they know each other, but I am worried about her doing this little investigation. People in my exes circle are only safe as long as they don’t threaten his “existence” (meaning his lifestyle). At the moment she is living in Norway and I’m so glad she has that distance. Dammit that man will never just go away. Sometimes I do wish he would just die, it would be so much better for the rest of the world.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Also.. you guys oughta know by now how ineffective the police can be when dealing with this stuff. If he did kill his gf, it will be almost the only crime he has ever committed. He’s changed his name and moved several times, they will never put the effort into finding him without a body or something, anything to make them suspicious. We also have no proof he burned the apt. building, heck I don’t even think anyone knows where it is. We all thought it was just a story he fed the kids to explain why he couldn’t do anything for christmas yet again. The best I can do is keep my eyes open and try to collect the facts, for now.
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newworld view says:
kat…..you and your daughter should stop your investigation..dont SHOW him your interest…..give the authorities his name and info…they can track via isp addresses if they want or other phone and addresses by any aliases he is using…they can…you two must stay safe
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OxDrover says:
Kat, I agree with NWV that you and your daughter would be better off to tell the police. Don’t suppose that they won’t listen, belive me the POLICE were the ONLY ONES WHO DID LISTEN TO ME.
My X-BF did burn the home of his previous GF and we were not able to prove it (arson is a difficult thing to prove) but if the GF is missing that should start some red flags with the police and keep him under suspicion. The police do take a dim view of the perp for missing persons. They may not always be able to “get them” but many times they do. Even years and years later.
You already know that this man is dangerous and capable of murder. Not all cops sweep this kind of thing under the rugs, there are some tough old detectives out there that just as a matter of princlple will go after someone like this and moving from state ot state may not help him get away with it all.
Give the police a chance to do their jobs, if they don’t know anything, they can’t do it. and ABOVE ALL BE CAREFUL.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Tell them what though? That some girl named Michelle something disappeared from some town in NY that we don’t know about and that my ex who is living I do not know where might have done something to her?
And who would I tell?
The town cops here? lol you can’t imagine how futile that would be
I need more info.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
I don’t even know what state he moved to or what alias he is living under. We don’t even have a phone number.. and I’m doing anything to piss him off at my daughter or me, not while he’s free.. but I will try to get info .. all I can do right now.. at least her last name.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Thanks peoples.. as far as being safe though.. if the police come knocking on his door I know he will come straight to me unless her parents are looking for her. I heard they weren’t because she had been slowly pulling away from them for the last few years. Also she might have just gone home.. sigh.. don’t worry I won’t do any investigating, but I’m not ever taking my eye off that snake.
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newworld view says:
good kat ..i want yout and your daughter to be safe…i think your gut was right when you were afraid he may choke you, even if it was a long time ago…he just got moreconfident he could get away with it..or the impulsiveness took over……you could just give his name and some former address and they take it from there……stay safe
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Tood says:
blondie says:
has anyone ever read When Your Lover Is A Liar by Susan Foward? this is book is great, i suggest everyone read it. they have a section about sociopaths. if anyone has read it let me know what you think?
Blondie, that book was the first one I found after my spouse revealed his true face to me. I returned to the chapter on sociopaths again and again, each time saying “Yes, this is it. This is what he is.”
I asked my older children to read that chapter and all agreed, “Yes, that’s him.”
That book set me on the road to truth.
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gypsy1 says:
The truth around sociopaths and religion needs to be kept centerstage. I have long maintained that religious sociopaths are particularly dangerous. Why? Because religion is a powerful means of control to others with the same religious convictions. Religious sociopaths are amazingly good at “talking the (religious) talk” and getting others to let their guard down and trust them. Their charming front makes them great preachers. It’s easy to be fooled by these con artists. How easy? I met my ex on a Christian dating site. He had been a pastor of various churches and has a Bible site on the web. He had told me that he had hit his wife once or twice and regretted it, but I later learned that he battered her repeatedly throughout their marriage, kicking, punching, and even choking her. He told me that his kids would not talk to him because of his “evil witch” wife. The truth was (I later found out), he had hit and threatened his kids and there was a protective order in place that I never knew about! Shortly after we married, he began to threaten me also. And this is only the tip of the iceberg with him. He continues to lie about all of it to others, saying he is a “victim”, and continues to publish Christian newsletters and get a following for himself.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
I always think about that poor 19 year old girl named “Esther” who was found after she tried to kill herself. She was the adopted daughter of a pastor and his wife, who had apparently adopted her for the sole purpose of making her the family slave. She was beaten mercilessly for her entire miserable life until she escaped. Now she is a shy troubled twenty-something, and fears all Christians. This is such a crying shame. These religious sociopaths are super dangerous because they are elevated above “normal” society and given way too much power. Usually you find out about them when they are put in jail for some unspeakable crime, or when they kill off their “congregation” in a mass suicide or shoot-out with the cops. This makes the whole Christian community look like a bunch of freaks.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Gypsy1,
Welcome to Donna’s healing site. Thank you for sharing your story about your X–unfortunately there are so many others just like him out there.
Kat, you are so right about that, and the “forgiveness” aspect of religion is so twisted to mean “pretend none of this happened” but that is NOT the definition of “forgiveness” that is appropriate or right or good. The Ps are so good at taking some scripture out of context and twisting the meaning to mean something entirely perverted, to help them maintain their power and their control.
Even within families this perverted view of religion is used as a club to emotionally and spiritually BATTER members of the family. I was a victim of this emotional and spiritual religious abuse by being told by my mother that if I didn’t “forgive” (her definition of “pretend the abuse never happened”) that I was going to hell and burn forever. It is only NOW at 61 years old that I have finally said NO MORE to this guilt and fear battering.
Unfortunately, many people who are religiously abused turn their backs on not only their twisted abusers but on the very spiritual support that TRUE religion and belief can give. This abuse robs these people not only of their happiness it deprives them of their spiritual support as well. What twisted wicked evil people these predators are.
These are the spiritual descendants of the men who cried for the Crucifixion of Jesus, and slew the prophets and burned others at the stake for daring not to agree with their twisted beliefs. I have more respect for the Roman emperors who threw the Christians to the lions for sport than for those people who IN THE NAME OF GOD use religion to persecute and abuse others.
One day standing in line at the grocery store (a long one) I picked up some magazine and was reading, the article I read was about the palatial homes of the TV preachers. These homes are in the middle of large estates, well out of the “view” of the public. Some reporter had flown a helicopter over these mansions to take photographs of these HUGE AND COSTLY estates. There were estates listed and shown for just about every “well known name” in TV preaching. I thought it was actually funny, but also sad, that these people, like the Bakers had become so wealthy while begging for “donations” on TV.
I have no problem with any minister/priest/pastor etc being “paid” but to pay them like a rock star is absolutely unconscionable to me. I think many of these people are at the BEST interpretation Narcissists and at the worst psychopaths. For a while my son shared a cell with a “preacher” who had been a in a big “mega church” and quite wealthy, but he was a serial rapist. The man was a raging Psychopath from my son’s description and loved to recount his “conquests” before he was finally caught and sent to prison for life, I hope it is life without parole, but I’m not sure about the actual sentence. “Life” sometimes means as little as 15 years.
Then you get to the “cover ups” with the pedophile priests. The church itself knowing what was going on and not reporting these men to the police, just transferring them to another place where they continued their abuses of children by the hundreds. I may be “clinically” in error, but I equate child abuse and pedophilia with psychopaths, one and the same.
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apt/mgr says:
Seeing on the news about Mary Winkler getting her children back, I thought of this post. The news media is calling her a preacher killer. I don’t condone what she did, but I could see how one snaps. When this “man of God” puts a woman in a position that requires her to perform against her will, it causes something to die inside. It’s so demoralizing. And especially coming from a man who is supposed to be called of God. You would think those ones at least, would be the most sensitive and understanding of a woman’s needs. They should understand the whole sexual process better than most. They use their standing to cover the pervertedness of their minds. Like who would believe that of them. They are godly. Yeah right.
God’s word says a man who is called to preach and teach will be judged more harshly. They should be above reproach, but it seems like they think they are God and can do anything. Who’s going to question a “man of God”? I have lost so much respect for the man of the cloth. When the truth finally comes out about their personal life and what they subject their wife to, I no longer want to hear what they have to say.
We read about some who are having trysts with gays who denounce them vehemently. There’s the old bishop who convinced a naive parishioner that in order to be right with God, she had to have sex with him. There’s the head of the southern district whose wife divorced him due to his abuse, but yet he continues in his service. I don’t want to listen to someone who beats up his wife, tell me how to worship God and live for Him. I’m so glad God brought me out of the religious movement and gave me a spiritual awakening. I understand that God forgives, but these ones don’t seem to show remorse for their sins, but will continue to condemn others to Hell.
I will no longer, in my life that’s left, be used for sex, thrown away after, but made to feel guilty if I complained, like it’s a God given duty for the woman to perform and be available. Bull pucky. If it’s not a mutual happening, then it’s rape, no matter if one is married or not. No one should make another uncomfortable where sex is concerned, and especially those who want to be looked up to as a “man of God”. They use their position to seduce and entice. There’s nothing godly about their approach to life. No wonder people don’t trust the churches anymore. I don’t say this of all of them, but there’s been enough that it makes one leery of telling their hurts to a minister. Satan will use anyone for his purpose. We have to constantly be on the alert.
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OxDrover says:
I just did some reading on Mary Winkler and “comment” blogs where people post opinions of various newspaper or internet articles. On one, Mary was Blasted and DAMNED by almost everyone who posted (and Yea, I know, it’s not scientific) but anyway one woman who casually knew her posted that from the time she met Mary and her husband she felt like he was an abuser. So this casual meeting obviously sparked something in this woman who said “She looked like someone stomped her puppy, and when I met him, I knew it wasn’t her puppy that had been stomped.”
I don’t know many of the details about Mary murdering her husband except that she had been involved in some “crazy” things financially etc. and that she alleged abuse after the trial got underway. She was given “voluntary manslaughter” and is out on probation and has been seeing her children for about a year while they lived with her late husband’s parents, and now has custody of them.
Many of us have heard of “PKs” (preacher’s kids) who sometimes –often enough to get a nick name–turn out to be pretty rowdy or dysfunctional. Mary’s husband was not only a PK but he was a preacher himself so there may have been a lot of stress and pressure to “conform” at least outwardly to a “certain way of life”—I am speculating here–but whatever happened in that family, a terrible price has been paid by everyone involved. Whether Mary’s husband was or was not an abuser, I hope that the children are receiving therapy, and I don’t think that they should suffer any more for WHATEVER happened to provoke her to kill her husband.
Sometimes in these situations where a divorce is the OBVIOUS answer to others, that isn’t an “option” for a “man of the cloth” who would most likely do everything possible to prevent a crack in his feet of clay and his public persona.
Whatever happened, my sympathy goes out for the chldren, and for Mary as well, and to the parents of her dead husband. Apparently according to the news articles, they were in agreement with the return of the children to their mother, it was NOT a court ordered thing (at least at this time). So there seems, to me at least, some agreement by the dead husband’s parents that Mary is a good mother.
I pray for them all.
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B.T. Clusters says:
Another great example is David Miscavige, the guy in charge of the Scientology cult. Here’s an article about him:
http://www.indybay.org/newsite.....529112.php
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Stargazer says:
This is a particularly interesting topic. I had met my Sociopath on a reptile site. In his profile under favorite books, he listed first “The Bible”. And I notice since our split he has quoted a biblical phrase in his signature “let he who has never sinned cast the first stone” or something like that. When we were together, I asked him several times about his religious beliefs. He said he really wasn’t very religious at all.
He also told me he’d fought twice in Iraq and was getting a medical discharge for a head injury. But when I questioned him about whether he believed in why he was there, if he felt patriotic, etc., he said it was just a job.
I remember thinking at the time that he nearly lost his life for a cause that he could care less about? And that he mentioned the Bible in his profile, but never acted the least bit concerned about religion with me? Very odd.
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alohatraveler says:
Stargazer,
The Bad Man always put barbs in his next persoanl ad about the last person… kind of like your guys biblical quote. They want you to read it and feel bad… like you were the sinner that cast the stones.
I was struggling to get myself established and everytime I broke things off wtih the BM, he always put things like, “Looking for a woman who can support herself” (even though no one was helping me) or “a woman who knows how to resolve and BE LOVE.” He was just trying to make me feel bad for leaving him when he was being abusive and cast doubt in my mind..
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betrayed says:
The sociopath I know will pretend to be ANYTHING that gets him where he wants to be. Right now, he IS pretending to be religious and a conservative because that’s what his current girlfriend is. I know him to be an atheist, and I’ve known him his entire life. He’s my brother.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Betrayed,
Yep, they can definitely pretend to be anything! Quote scripture with the best’uv’em!
I’m sorry you had to grow up with a psychopath, it’s a difficult journey to have them in your family.
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moraira43 says:
My boss at work is a real bully and I think she is a sociopath after educating myself. she is a self styled guru who wears all the religious clothing. she is an ex heroin addict. I found out from someone who used to know her. All her superiors think she is a very spiritual woman with inner peace. she never talks about her past to anyone. She has been married a few times she met the latest one on a trip to india. she said she is bored with him and he isnt what she expected. She makes me feel very uneasy, she does this thing where she stares straight at you and gets in your personal space. She makes out she is supportive but she is very critical and undermining and she makes constant digs at me. A colleague complained about her and she made her life a misery, constantly finding fault with her work and getting her in the office on trumped up charges. She tried to turn me against the colleague saying it was her causing the boss to be upset, she said she had it in for her. At the same time she was pretending to be supportive again to the colleague. I told the colleague to be on her guard and the boss found out so I became a victim.
She spends most of the time on the internet and she does not support the team, she does minimal work, but her boss’s think she is marvellous because she tells them all the time that it is her holding the place together. She makes really nasty comments to me when no one is around some of the things she has said to me are quite disturbing, but pretends support and feigns incredulity when challenged by management on how she is acting towards me. Even a senior manager who I have known for 5 years before her who I used to have a very good working relationship with is taken in, I tried to discuss it with her but she wont listen. She has got rid of quite a few people, normally the more experienced older workers who speak their minds. she makes sure that she has evidence that she is being nice to you, she will be really nasty and then u will receive a txt out of the blue with a nice supportive message and kisses, i know she probably keeps them stored on her phone as evidence in case I report her.
Younger workers who are her followers are given responsibility over the more experienced workers, she also has favourites and is quite sickly with them. They must see how unfair she is but no one speaks out to support me. Only 2 of us remain who can see what she is and we are both getting ill all the time, I’m sure its the stress. she has no compassion but if one of her followers even has a slight headache she sends them home. recently i was diagnosed with a life threatening illness, all she said when i told her was i should consider giving up work and if i couldnt afford it i should downsize. but occupational health told me after they had spoken to her that i had a really supportive manager and i was lucky. they have hinted i may not be able to go back and do my current job, i think she has something to do with this.
I cant stand it much longer, I know its no good going to higher management to complain as they are all taken in by her act, what can you do in this situation. I certainly think she uses the spirituality to fool people.
I seem to attract sociopaths, i must have victim written all over me.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Moraira,
I saw a psychopathic manager ruin an entire hospital’s nursing staff, the entire hospital lost all but one nurse that had been there. It ended up with the DON being fired, the p being fired, the adm being fired,and since it was a specialty hospital there were not enough nurses of that special skill to maintain it and the hospital was sold. I saw it coming and so did a few others, but we were powerless. It happens.
I suggest that you get a small pocket digital tape recorder and put it in your pocket when you are around this woman so that you can PROVE WHAT SHE SAYS. Keep it secret until you NEED IT. PROTECT YOURSELF ALWAYS when in the presence of a P. Use it for your H also.
I suggest that if you dont’ at this time want to go NC with your mom, just AVOID her totally until things calm down for you.DO NOT give out any information on what you are doing, even to your sisters as they will take it to her. Keep your life as SIMPLE and CALM as possible. I know that is difficult when you are surrounded by Ps and hostile, toxic people. Believe me I have BEEN THERE AND HAVE THE TEE SHIRT, SEVERAL IN FACT! lol
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moraira43 says:
Luckily my mum is in a different country now so there is not as much influence. I did confide in my sister about my situation with S and I asked her not to repeat it, I think I was just checking that what he was doing was wrong as I have a problem with boundaries, I have now realised I dont know how far I should allow someone to go before I say enough. She said to me that I needed to tell the whole family so I had support, I said I didnt want anyone else to know. She contacted my other sister about it and they both said I had to tell mum. I have told them I dont want her to know as it will turn into a big drama for her. Mum telephoned me out of the blue yesterday and I could tell she was waiting for me to say something to her, I didnt, so she just told me how hard her life was at the moment full of drama as usual.
I do think that p’s and s’s choose their victims wisely, I think they have a sixth sense on who would be a good victim. I have an appt with a work dr next week, I’m thinking I need to confide about my manager, there may be an option that I can be relocated with the same health service. At the moment i am willing to do anything to get away from this boss.
people who have been through this are the wisest people and I dont know if they understand how invaluable their incite is for people who are at the start of their journey.
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moraira43 says:
just to add I have not had any of the support that was offered to get me to tell tham my story, I havent heard from any of them since!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Moraira,
Good fo ryou for not falling for your mom’s call and “spilling the beans”—if people are not going to be supportive, it is best just to
AVOID contact with them and if you must contact them, don’t let on, or if they say something then say “I’d really rather not talk about that right now” and if they keep on pushing, just repeat “I’ d really rather not talk about that rightnow.” REPEAT, until they shut up. Or walk away yourself if you must.
To be around people who are stress inducing is more than you need right now. YOU MUST PUT YOURSELF AND YOUR DAUGHTER FIRST. Use what energy you have for yourself and her, for no one else. YOU and she are the ONLY IMPORTANT responsibilities you have right now. (((hugs))))
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moraira43 says:
On the subject of christian dating sites, my friend had joined one a while back, she is looking to settle down and has had no luck as she is always working. when I read this article it alarmed me and i contacted her to warn her. She had just had 2 men contact her, one was totally unsuitable but one of them sounded promising to her, he e-mailed her and said he would like to meet her but thought he should let her know that he was 2 weeks into a relationship with someone else he had met, He was trying to string 2 of them along and this is a christian dating site. Luckily her self esteem is intact and she politely turned him down at the same time telling him what he was doing was wrong. She said everyone she has spoken to on the site seems strange. She is now going to get out more, and I think I will go with her!
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Wini says:
moraira43: My EX can quote scriptures… remember, God knows what’s in your heart when you do anything.
Anyone, whatever your mindset is … can physically be anywhere in any profession, in any church, in a any school, in your family, friends etc.
I suspect our lesson is to try to stay away from “them”, but if we fail and they do find their way back into our lives … how fast can we get away from the relationship, next time.
Peace.
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moraira43 says:
My boss acts like a guru and dresses like one so everyone thinks she is very spiritual. Wrong!!!! She is the worst bully. and definitely has S tendencies. She stares straight at you without blinking and always tries to put down the most skilled people, she has favourites who are like her pets. Ignores some people in her team completely and undermines and criticises others. Her superiors think she is wonderful because she constantly tell them how she succeeds under all the pressure, she is actually on the internet most of the day. and hides in her room if there is a problem to be sorted. She lies and twists everything to make someone look bad and her look good. She is an ex heroin addict and still has alot of the issues underlying addiction, just because your clean doesnt mean your cured.
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