Sociopaths pretending to be religious
Sociopaths like to cloak themselves in a mantel of respect. They seek careers, or pretend to have careers, in fields that people associate with good character, trustworthiness, and authority, such as law enforcement, the military and the clergy.
Pursuing a career in religion or spirituality is particularly useful for sociopaths. People tend to trust religious figures simply because they are religious figures, which puts a sociopath several moves ahead when trying to scam someone. A sociopath claiming an inside track to God has a very powerful tool when it comes to manipulating people.
Plus, for a sociopath, a career in the clergy is easy—the primarily visible job requirement is an ability to talk. With typical inborn charisma, and a willingness to lie about other credentials, the sociopath is a shoo-in.
Lovefraud has written about several pseudo-members of the clergy whose behavior has certainly flouted the Ten Commandments:
Anthony Owens claimed to be bishop of a fellowship of more than 100 non-denominational churches, which was a lie. He was married to eight women at the same time.
Rabbi Fred Neulander founded the largest Jewish temple in southern New Jersey. He was convicted of arranging the murder of his wife.
Terry Hornbuckle founded a megachurch in Arlington, Texas. He was found guilty of raping three women, two of whom were parishioners.
Then, of course, there’s Fred Brito, who impersonated a Catholic priest, even performing a couple’s wedding, when he had no religious training whatsoever.
Lovefraud readers have told us of more cases. AlohaTraveler says her “Bad Man” had been a pastor for an Assemblies of God church in Seattle. Another woman has built a website about the real reason a reverend abruptly departed from the First Presbyterian Church of Fort Lauderdale, Florida—an extramarital affair with her.
Fake believers
Even sociopaths who aren’t clergy put religion to work in their manipulation. Here are some examples from the Lovefraud mailbag:
- A woman married a guy who was a “Christian” teacher (her quotes) in schools for 14 years. He abandoned her after six months and started an affair with another woman, all the while talking about reconciliation. She then found out she was his eighth or ninth wife, and he had previously been convicted of bigamy.
- A guy met a woman in a Christian chat room on the Internet. He was in the process of getting a divorce; she claimed she was also. He left everything and moved to her state to be with her. She taught at a Christian school half-days, and would meet him—for sex—after work. She was still married.
- Girl starts dating guy when she is 18. They belonged to the same Christian faith, which did not allow premarital sex; all their dates were chaperoned. When she was 20, they had a fairytale wedding. That night, he raped her, then started gaslighting her, and convinced a doctor that she was crazy, until she ended up on psychotropic drugs.
- A woman’s ex-husband claims to be a Christian minister. “The church is a fraud to bilk people out of money. He helps the other pastor get money from poor people who can’t afford it,” she writes. “When he raped me and tried to kill me, and when he and his daughter broke into my house, well the cops saw him wearing preacher pants and didn’t believe me.”
- Woman meets a guy on a Christian singles site—they both sang, did music ministry, and had an “intense desire to serve the Lord.” They married, started their own church, then she finds out he owed $30,000 in child support and was addicted to hardcore porn. He became physically abusive.
- Woman marries a 51-year-old Catholic school teacher who is an Episcopalian priest, retired military, widowed after 29 years of marriage. Two months into the marriage, his son moves in with them. The son was selling and using cocaine, and her new husband—the priest—was in business with him.
Predators are everywhere
Lovefraud has heard of many more cases in which sociopathic predators were fishing for victims in churches and on religious dating websites. We’ve heard of sociopaths who quoted the Bible, prayed every day, and emotionally tortured their families.
And then there are the sociopaths who use religion as a reason to keep bleeding their victims. Christian religions, and New Age spiritualism, embrace the concept of forgiveness. Sociopaths use this to claim that they’ve “found God” who has forgiven their transgressions, and you should too.
The key point here is that just because someone claims to be Christian, religious, or otherwise spiritual, does not mean he or she is automatically trustworthy. If your instincts are telling you that something is wrong, no matter what the context, pay attention.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
holywatersalt says:
AMEN!
I came to meet and learn about psychopaths through Church. It is disheartening and I hate to think others willbe turned off by religion b/cof psychopaths, but they are in the sanctuary.
I know of them and have experienced their predation myself.
Here’s a key to catching them…their actions do not match their words. The ones I have known- pour on the piety all the while chasing pre-teen parishoners, wives and actining out all sorts of profanity. For me, in retrospect, it started with the outrageous conversations, really monologues, in Church. Another told me straight out “how bad his marriage was” ….all the while he was cheating with others in and out of Church.
Here’s a clue: married men DO NOT pursue personal conversations with women other than their WIVES- esp. shocking is the obvious loitering around young girls…
The stories I could tell…claims of abject poverty whilst brining in income of over 150,000…One good that has come from my experience with psychos in Church…I know there is only one God I can turn to. I believe that is key, palcing all our trust and hope in a person is a disaster waiting to happen. Even trusting a a bit , a psycho leads to pain and suffering…
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 10:10am
gillian says:
This is just another one of those incomprehensible things about these creatures. How they can speak such loving words, say such inspiring-sounding things and yet just be doing that to garner trust so they can get away with the most despicable things.
In my personal journey I have gone through so many phases. From shock and disbelief to denial, bargaining, hope, despair, suicidal ideation, curiosity, fascination, learning, confusion, more shock, acceptance, pain, endless yammering–I feel like I’ve bounced around like a ping pong ball. Ultimately, however, I am coming to the place Liane, I think it was, spoke of: disgust with the sociopath. I am getting to a place where more and more I feel nothing but revulsion toward a man I once loved with all my heart. A man I utterly believed in and trusted.
The more I am able to get my head around what “my” S has done and what he continues to do and always will do, the more I am filled with this disgust.
And disgust particularly heightened when I think back and remember how he was a deacon in our church. How he helped with communion. How he washed other people’s feet (Adventist). How he got up in front of the entire congregation and sang “How Great Thou Art.”
How he would request prayer and pray aloud, such a good out-loud prayer, my own are awkward and clumsy, he always knew the best words, gave me tingles.
And he would do all this all the while he was living an ugly double life, betraying every sacred vow, violating every rule and standard of what he professed to believe in.
And even now, now that he’s been caught, he is no longer going to church, but is attending AA, which–although he is there talking about God, telling people how he is spending hours down on his knees and how his higher power is doing for him what he could not do for himself–he is actually using as his personal trout farm. He is going to meetings all over southern California so that this woman won’t know about that one and that one won’t know about this.
For him, AA is just another group of people to con, another bunch of people to stroke his ego. Another source of women to seduce and conquer.
I am the biggest thorn in his side. He is my worst nightmare, but I am his worst nightmare too. He so wants to convince me that he is a changed man, not just so that I won’t expose him to his new honey (who he is now living with although he is still carrying on with the woman he’s been having a 5 year affair with and who he planned to leave me for–under false pretenses–last year and is “seeing” many other women as well: women he works with, women he’s met in AA; and how I know all this is because via the internet I can see all the calls he makes on his cell phone), but so he can convince his family, particularly his parents, who now know the complete ugly truth about him, that while he is very very sorry for what he has done, he’s undergone this miraculous transformation. He’s had a “white light experience” as he told me two months ago.
And he gets away with this–not with me or my family and friends anymore, but with all his new “friends” and the people he works with because he sounds so sincere. He has such a buttery voice. Chocolate eyes. A warm touch.
Yesterday I had a long discussion with my sister-in-aw and she said and could not be convinced otherwise that even though she can believe that the S doesn’t care about me or most anyone else she just cannot believe that anyone could not really care about their own daughter, could not love their own flesh and blood, their own child they held and comforted and kissed and played games with. That seems impossible to her. And I do understand. It took me a long time to realize that my S truly did not and does not care about his own daughter. Even though I had read that this is so in a book, Martha Stout’s I think, where she says sociopaths use their children as props to help them pass for normal I could not quite believe this about my S. He was every other thing, but not this. It wasn’t until I inadvertently discovered that the brakes on my car (in which my daughter was often a passenger) were shot and that my S knew this and said nothing that I got it. I finally, finally got it. And by “get” I don’t mean I understand, only that I know this is so.
And I felt such frustration talking to my SIL yesterday because, like I used to and still have the inclination to, she insisted on applying normal-people rules to the S. But you cannot apply normal-people rules to the sociopath. I don’t know how many times I have asked: “How can he do this?” “How can anyone do this?” “How can anyone treat another human being like that?” “How can anyone lie so completely and utterly, say they’ll call you again, “just before [they] go night-night” all the while they are staring at one of the women they are having an affair with who is sitting in her silver car parked down the street?” (A very long story.)
But there’s never an answer. Not a satisfactory one anyway. The closest I can ever come to that is: “Because he’s a sociopath.”
I doubt there will every be any more complete answer than that because who could ever ask a sociopath a question and know they’ll get a truthful answer? They can’t; they never will; everything the S says is completely self-serving and manipulative. Even when they sound remorseful or sincere or earnest or desirous of change there’s no point in asking them anything because everything they say is a lie. Even when it is the truth it is a lie. And, to me, that is the most confounding thing of all.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:26am
Wini says:
Dear gillian: I read your post. I’m glad to read that you are healing from all the pain he caused in your life. Yes, they are very cleaver. Yes, they are in the churches, work offices, fields, your favorite shopping mall, etc. What we are all learning is they say and do whatever they please. That is just another … out there that lives in their EGO instead of being humble.
Peace to your heart and soul. You got through the worst part of this … acknowledging and accepting what is. Be kind to yourself as you heal. Pray to God to guide you towards forgiveness. Pray to God in good times and Bad. He loves to hear from us every day, any time, any place we are.
I just remember this: Oprah says she writes down on a piece of paper every night before she goes to bed every thing she is grateful for from the day.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:44am
swallow says:
The P I was involved with was a ‘good’ muslim. He professed to pray 5 times a day and never drank alchohol. This myth was portrayed not just by himself but the OW and they fooled many people. What I did not know at the time was that he slept around with anything that moved and sold drugs.
Not being a religeous person myself and not familiar with Shariah law I didn’t realise just how ridiculous his behaviour was - he was having an affair with a married woman (me). When I did eventually question him about it, he covered it up by saying it was his “destiny” to fall in love with me even though it was against his religeon. In the honeymoon phase, that was very believable and of course, if I had known about the OW (also married), I would have smelt a rat much sooner.
As so many have said - if I had not been blinded by his flattery and charm and looked at his actions, I may not have been sucked into the whirlpool.
Swallow
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 4:05pm
Glinda says:
The xs didn’t use religion much on me- it wasn’t a very good tool of manipulation with me.
After I threw him out and he was living at his mother’s Christian bookstore, he was telling people, of course, that HE owned it and she worked for him. He was also touting himself as a Christian as a come on on singles sites. He was signing emails “Your Friend in Christ, xxxx”
Maybe he did find religion- witnesses say they saw him snorting coke off bible pages.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 7:19pm
Lib says:
I have known may N/S/P through church/religion. I worked for Catholic Charaties and reported to a priest, who I thought at the time was a clasisc N. He may have been more than that. He did create a wonderful umbrella of services and would turn on the Irish charm when he needed to, sipped Johnnie Walker Red from his tea cup, then scream, and cuss at those that worked for him for the tiniest of issues. He took items for himself that were given to the agencies for the poor, even dog food for homeless dogs so that he could feed all of his large dogs.
An elder in the church I attend now, murdered his wife years ago and now in their 60’s lives with and controls his very passive sister.
An ex- co-worker married her “prophet” husband after knowing him two weeks, has a web-site, tapes and books on what God reveals to him, counsels people about relationships while he moved her from her family and is abusive. He also had a door to door cable scam stealing money from refugees.
“My” S. was in the airforce (kicked out), has always wanted to be a police officer (has an application in hand today), facilitates men’s recovery groups, and speaks to women’s groups about his higher power (gets more than his EGO stroked this way.)
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 7:26pm
Lib says:
Yuk! This really makes me sick as I re-read it. I just wish I could keep this disgust fresh 24/7 and I might be able to have NC.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 7:31pm
JaneSmith says:
That’s what LoveFraud is for, Lib. We write down our innermost thoughts, feelings in an effort to purge ourselves of the extensive damage caused by PDIs.
I have reread many of my original comments hoping that maybe I’ve come further along in my healing/recovery and just maybe I’m liberated from the past hurt. I realize I am so much better emotionally and spiritually than I was 2 months ago.
I no longer ruminate, ponder, drudge up memories of not only the X Music Man, but the other 4 PDI bfs I’ve been involved with in the past 15 years. My latest X wasn’t the worse of the bunch (he never hit me or called me foul names) but he is what I consider the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back.
He was the mentally ill guy who literally caused me to confront my terrible choices in men. Why did I continue to be involved with bad dudes? What was wrong with me that I seriously thought I didn’t deserve any better than the itty bitty crumbs they sparingly scattered my way?
Well, my introduction to LF cleared up massive flaws in my stubborn thinking and actions. Yes, I do take responsibility for allowing PDIs in my life but No, I did not deserve the harsh, cruel treatment that was inflicted upon me.
And wanting to stay on topic of the post, my X Music Man knew that I was a spiritual Christian and that I also incorporated Buddhist religion/philosophy in my daily life. He knew that I was striving to be more disciplined in walking the “path of mindfulness” He knew that I was working on trying to transmute my negative emotions into much more productive, beneficial ones and he exploited my beliefs and ideas constantly. He actually started quoting my statements as if they were his own! It causes me to laugh now, but then I considered it flat out robbery!
One day, he went off on a tangent, crazy making, and I tried to understand what great infraction I had done to create such disharmony in him. Well, to make a stupid long story short, he left and it was me who ended up calling him and apologizing for the words I had said to him in self defense. I asked him to forgive me and then I said to him…God bless you. He responded by saying…”I forgive you as does God”
Now, how in the universe does he know what, why, when, where, how the Lord does what he does? I sure don’t, so how could he? His arrogance was just too darn much for me and that “tone” he would use when he was thinking he was superior to me was annoying.
I really loved the guy, though I don’t any more. But at least I can say I am able to love.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 9:16pm
bird says:
Tell me about it! I met my ex sociopath on an online religious site. When he left me, he left all of his religious books behind with me. Last I heard, he has now converted to another religion, the religion of his current love interest. When he left me he said he was no longer going to try to be the man he thought he was. So, I guess now he is trying to be the “new man” with the “new religion” for the “new women”. It is like the man doesn’t exist. He is mimicking whatever his current love interest is into. It is not like the two religions are at all similar either. They are night and day. What a fraud.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 9:24pm
Wini says:
My Ex attended service with me as well as other events held in churches. Now that we know what we are dealing with (the spiritually stunted/challenged for the political correct folks out there) such a shame that he (or any of them) couldn’t feel those great feelings while attending special occasions with family and friends … always going through the motions. Sad, sad, sad. Besides stealing $$thousands$$ of dollars worth of my possessions when he left, top on the list of stolen items is my Bible. When I did talk with him (a few times after he left and pretending that I still didn’t know about him) I told him that I bought the Bible in memory of my father (that it had special meaning to me). Of course he denied, denied, denied … and then I told him I hope you read it.
Peace.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:45pm
Wini says:
Oh, before I forget … my bosses and their cronies all profess to attend regular service on Sundays. I found it strange that one of the “rat pack” passed over this winter. As I read the obit on-line, all the spiritually stunted blogged onto the newspaper site and what they wrote, quoting scriptures and how much they were going to miss this dear friend and co-worker … I just prayed to myself. It just proves to me more and more that Tolle is on to something regarding the EGOs of the world and how living in one’s ego does not allow people to be humble. It’s when we are humble is when we can feel our emotions, hear the word of God, be kind and love our fellow wo/man, and live a righteous life.
Peace.
Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:53pm
takingmeback says:
This post is part of what upsets me the most about S/N/Ps. It’s not OK that they exploit others and abuse in any fashion via any venue but I get so upset about how many are present in our churchs, mosques, synogogues, you name it. How they use God and religion to build their fake reputations, to gain their audiences and to prey on decent people. It makes me realize that there is no true safe place out there where the S/N/Ps don’t lurk.
I’ve said in other posts, I believe if they are to change it would be God’s doing and their acknowledgment that they themselves are not gods. But like you said gillian, you can’t trust a thing they say! I have prayed for the S who said he didn’t believe in God and who raged at the very mention of the word “faith”. BUT I have simultaneously prayed that he never contact me again. I was afraid when I found out he was reading a Christian book on relationships that he was doing his homework and preparing to come back to me with some sparkling new revelations. I believe in miracles and that God can do all things. But if my ex showed up at my door tomorrow saying he’s found God I would say, “Great. Good luck on your journey in life. Now please go away.” Then I would promptly close the door and lock it! OK, that’s not entirely true. If he showed up on my doorstep tomorrow I wouldn’t open the door at all. But you get the gist of how I feel :).
As for those people in my life who’ve suggested that I go to church to meet a nice, decent man….I shudder. I met one of my ex’s at church and he’s the only b/f who was ever physically abusive towards me. Not that I want to generalize that to all men in church. But just because someone goes to church doesn’t mean they’re safe people. Men and women alike.
bird, I have also had people suggest I go to an online dating site for Christian singles to meet men. Your experience speaks for itself. I am sorry that you and everyone else who posted here has experienced abuse at the hands of men claiming to be spiritual and moral. It makes me want to scream that anyone uses religion or spirituality to “appear” decent or “normal” even. But with the S/N/Ps nothing’s sacred or off limits.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 2:04am
Benzthere says:
It is a good con and it worked on me. How could you mistrust someone who was in a church hierarchy and had committed so much scripture to memory. And by the time you realize the behavior starts not matching the words, who better to bestow grace and forgiveness on than someone who knows God and surely must be just going through a period of drought needing extra support. No, nothing is sacred.
But in the process my long time religion instead became a spiritual relationship, I saw God’s hand in my life, and I came to realize that battle was God’s and not mine. I’ve had to deal with him because of legal matters and retaliation, but was given strength. I think it’s all about growth and it doesn’t come without pain or within the timeframe we may want. All I can do is pray for him, but I believe if we seek we will find.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 5:00am
EyeoftheStorm says:
Donna,
I am so glad to see a post about this subject! Years ago, I read an article about spiritual narcissism and found it so helpful. I think it is such an important topic, not only because of what goes on in organized religion, but also because of the prevalence of New Age spiritualism with its aura of highly camouflaged con artistry. Many troubled and questionable individuals hide in religion/new age spiritualism because sincere seekers are socialized to overlook that possibility! Spiritual narcissists/sociopaths are among the most highly skilled masters of deceit.
Your “key point” sums it up beautifully. An over the top spiritual display is on my list of red flags!
I won’t even get started on “forgiveness”…………!!!!!
Excellent topic!
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 7:05am
nottakingitanymore says:
My S got up on the witness stand and pretended to be pious and holy and a regular church attender. The judge believed him. All lies. He would attend only on special occasions.
He had repeatedly made disparaging comments about my faith, and the people at my church. He also made many remarks about how religion was a useful tool to keep other people (the gullible fools, in his opinion) from doing things that he didn’t like.
He had his own set of rules to live by. He basically had the attitude that he wanted to “look” like a moral person, but whenever morality was inconvenient to him, he would find some exception about why he should be exempt from the rules.
When his son worked at a movie theater, he invited me to go to a movie there with him. When his son snuck us in without paying, I was flabbergasted and too stunned to speak. I didn’t say anything at first because I didn’t know what to say and I didn’t want to hurt his or his son’s feelings. When I finally did say something, it was very mild. I tried to say that it made me uncomfortable to sneak in without paying. He made me feel like I was some sort of uptight sanctimonious judgemental jerk and that I was supposed to lighten up and relax, get a sense of humor and some perspective. (I have a GREAT sense of humor, thank you. It just doesn’t include stealing.)
If you feel sneaky, you’re doing something wrong. I knew that ever since I was a kid. What I learned was that if someone makes you feel sneaky and guilty, especially if they appear to have no guilt at all, they are not a good match for you.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 9:57am
Tood says:
Hello everyone. New here, first post. This topic resonates with me, because I fell victim to a false new age guru-type, and then was ’stolen away’ by his second-in-command.
Mr. Second asked me what I wanted, and when I said I wanted ‘a normal life,’ he dropped the new age facade and became Ward Cleaver, All-American husband and dad. I fell for it…for 15 long years.
And once he had used me and my family up, he moved on to his next victim and again donned the new age personna. Whatever works. As long as it is a lie, whatever works is what they do.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 10:21am
Lykastia says:
Haven’t been here in a while, but I when I saw the title of this blog entry, I just knew I had to say something. My ex-P used to tell me he was a good little Christian. I fell for it. I told myself that if he believed in God (AND had a dog), then he couldn’t be bad. Worst thing is, I don’t believe in God and with all due respect to everyone here who does, for the longest time, I’ve had a lot of doubts about all and everything related to the church. I still do. Fact is, I was blinded by his sweet words when I should’ve ran the other way. Nowadays, everyone who tries to soothe me with anything related to religion gets a piece of my mind and has no chance whatsoever to get involved with me.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 10:30am
holywatersalt says:
I blog on religion and narcissism.
http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com
and I vascillate on whether Psychos have any belief, and then I think they do believe in God,as the Devilobviously does, but they have no Faith.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 12:04pm
whoamI says:
My sociopath claimed to have gone to a Christian college… he couldnt prove it because he said ‘the college burned and all his records were lost’… he also claimed to have sang in a world famous Christian rock band…tours and everything..
His dad is a sociopath too and runs a missionary group…although he does some good, he is a sick abusive nut case. Who claims to have a heart problems and cancer.. whatever gets him attention.
Why do these people get away with this?
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 12:36pm
alohatraveler says:
Donna and all,
I would like to add this link that someone sent me about a year ago.
It’s a synopsis of a book entitled: Chiristian Men Who Hate Women; Healing Hurting Relationships
by Margaret J. Rinck
http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/xtian2.html
I am sure many of us will recognize the behaviors described as Narcissism but with a religious spin. I think this is what happened to the Bad Man’s ex-wife. Bad Man was quite a Bible Banger at one point and he had the weather old Bible to prove it. Also had pictures of himself showing that he did infact have a ministry at one time in the islands… Tonga, Samoa, blah blah.
By the time I met him, he was giving up one form of extremism for another and was looking a bit more new age. He was shifting toward a sexual extremism… calling himself (at times) Erotic Sexual Healer.
Puh-lease!!!!
Anyway, for anyone that was married to a guy that was a Minister or a Church Elder or some other dude that was playing God over you, I think this article will help.
Also, the kind of behavior described in this article has nothing but NOTHING to do with God. It saddens me that people are tortured in this way all under the guise of Man being the spiritual leader of the home. This is very twisted and sad.
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 3:52pm
alohatraveler says:
EyeOfTheStorm,
I wonder if the above article is the one you saw. Your post made me think of it.
Who was it that said it’s a red flag when someone is too showy about their “spirituality.” (I can’t find it and I just read it!) I totally agree. If someone is so very spiritual, show me, don’t tell me.
These days, any kind of extremism turns me off.
Well, have an excellent day everyone!
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 4:01pm
lesley says:
One of the worst men I ever went out with–but, luckily never got seriously involved with–was an ex Episcopal minister. Handsome as a movie star, some mysterious but well paid position in publishing, learn-ed about Carl Jung. He had these terrible stories about how his heartless ex wife had come to him between the first and second Christmas Eve services to say she was leaving him. I can’t remember now why he said he’d left the church, maybe it was he was looking to grow, or something like that. Anyway, his stories got wilder–he belonged to a secret organization that would rise up and unite England and America to fight in the event of war, his father had been a diplomat in South America and he’d grown up with bullets whizzing by his head. I live in New York, where you do meet people like this, so for a while, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then one night I invited him to a black tie thing I was involved in–AND HE STOLE SOME AUCTION ITEMS. I ditched him on the spot, went home and googled him. The movie star looks part was true, the publishing job was too, and so was the fact he’d been an Episcopal minister. But the rest of what I found out was a doozy! One story came up that was titled, “Ten Episcopal Churches Go Under,” and lo and behold, there was his former church and him featured midway down: the man, it turned out, had run off with the choir director, leaving his wife and three kids, and the congregation was so disgusted, they all stopped going to church. The church had gone bankrupt because of this. (And it was the church where I’d been confirmed, by the way, weirdly. He ruined my church!) His father was some broken down looking Pentecostal minister in Florida. A few years later I googled the man again, and up popped a story about this “minister” who’d rushed down to dispense aid and spiritual solace to the distraught around Ground Zero on 9/11. Mr. Maniac himself. I have to say, he was one of the dumber sociopaths I’ve come across, because he was so easily spotted as a fake. Wonder what became of him…
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 4:51pm
mjc1955 says:
My ex-husband had a very bad cocaine problem 20 years ago. At the time, I thought if he could just get sober, our lives would be o.k. Well, he did get sober and has been for 19 years but continued to ruin mine and my children’s lives through his lying and manipulation. I now know that he is a sociopath. But the frustrating thing is hearing that he is now working at a recovery center in Laguna Beach, Ca., as a “drug counseler”. He has everybody there fooled into believing that he has been “sober” for 19 years and that he is this wonderful example of what living a “clean” life can be. He fails to mention that he has lost his wife, children, job and home since he has been “sober”. We can’t warn these people at the recovery center—–we can only sit back and watch and hope that they figure out his scam before they lose everything————-
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 8:51pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
You know, this site is a godsend for me and such a reality check. The more I read the posts, the less alone I feel. Thank God I haven’t met any sociopaths who have succeeded in church. Well.. none that I know of anyhow. My two ex-husbands both left the church and didn’t try to use it as a springboard. Too much accountability I think.
Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 5:03am
tami says:
Yes! My ex husband claimed to be very spiritual and reference God and forgiveness regularly. We didn’t attend church regularly but he always went if I asked him to. He was a total pot head in a rock band and was sleeping with every woman he pretty much encountered. Yet, when we would attend church (southern Baptist), he’d “Amen” the preacher and suddenly appear to be a regular church member! I was appauled at his behavior! When he announced that he was leaving me, I fell apart because I knew nothing of his bad boy behavior at the time–he was so GOOD at hiding his “other side”. I asked him to pray with me and he actually did! All the time, knowing that he was leaving me for another woman and that he had had more affairs than one could count during our marriage. People, someone like that has to be evil and they can’t possibly believe in anything other than themselves!
Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 5:38am
TrishNJ says:
The criminal I fell for went to Roman Catholic church every Sunday and when he would miss church he would make sure he went on Monday.
When I finally met his other fiance….future wife. We shared so many of the same experiences about the man. Spoke the same “loving” words to her as he did I. He cried the same crockadile tears. We both had young daughters that he didn’t care about. Everything that came out of his mouth was a lie. So well scripted it is sad that someone could do that.
AlohaTraveler….thank you for your link above….I read it and it rings true to this man. This man stopped sex because the bible says to wait till marrage. He made me feel “bad” about myself….I know it is not real now but the damage was done….I wish I knew what I know now. I wish I didn’t loose everything in my life because of this man.
This man took everything from me even relationships in my life are damaged completely. And he tried to take God away! But he failed….because what he did was make my relationship with God stronger. And I know that in time everything will be O.K.
I have seen the results of God working in my life strongly. I could not have gone through the legal battle I did without him. The S Criminal thought he had shut all my doors with supper glue. But God’s hand is stronger than the devils. I cannot even begin to tell you everything I went through….one day I will write a book. I couldn’t have done it without “Father”…..
You see I believe these P’S S’s and N’s are a thread away from Hell! And they wreck havoc on peoples lives…and I know many victims end up dying from the suffering…with cancer or other ailments. I have spoken to many people about my pain and a few times people have told me that a similar thing has happened to a friend or loved one and they died a couple of years later of cancer. I know what that feels like. It’s not the loss of the money that does you in. It’s the loss of people in your life who didn’t understand what happened to you….that’s what will give you cancer….when you don’t have anyone who loves you or respects you anymore…what do you live for….God takes you away from that pain. Unless you can handle it! Or unless your fight is stronger….which is what mine was….I faught back!
The one thing I have is God….and I know that more than ever now. So in a way the S did me a big favor.
Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 6:40am
James says:
alohatraveler
Thanks for the link!
Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 7:43am
James says:
As for this thread, all I can say is by me having a close and personal relationship with my beliefs anyone that would use “God” and/or his teaching to manipulate others just leaves me with a very sick feeling deep inside. All I can say is that I hope my father in heaven will put these “goats” in a special place when their time comes to bow before him.
Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 7:48am
Odette says:
I’m Roman Catholic though not devout and I seldom attend mass. However it still mattered to me that my ex-P was RC too. It meant we could get married in church and I was surprised to realise how much that mattered to me. He made a big deal about it too and insisted that he wanted to get married in the church.
We were living together at that stage and little did I know that the rat had already secretly converted to Islam so that he could marry the other woman he was conning. In fact he’d already booked his plane ticket to the city where they got married a couple of months later. All of this while he was still living with me!
These creatures have no respect for any person, belief or institution. They are mere shells masquerading as human beings. I still feel contaminated even though he is in jail now. My very soul feels grubby after having had this creature in my life.
On a slightly different point, I can say I’ve encountered many dubious characters who are involved with the church. I think it serves their purposes in several ways; they attain a veneer of respectability and they have access to a pool of girls and women.
My eldest brother attends Mass every single Sunday and calls himself a devout Catholic yet I know he’s pressured more than one girlfriend into having an abortion. He treats people like dirt and rarely has anything good to say about anyone, seemingly taking delight in trashing people’s characters. He left me in deep financial trouble after I helped him by taking out two personal loans on his behalf - he simply stopped paying me back for an entire year and I’m only now getting money from him in drips and drabs.
The more I find out about him the more convinced I am that he has narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies.
Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 8:03am
buzzibee says:
New Agers promote, encourage and demand a “me-me-me” and “I-I-I” mentality.. and when things go wrong for you, it’s YOUR fault! Sociopaths are: “me-me-me” and “I-I-I” … and then they gaslight you! (your fault). Sociopaths fit into New Age spirituality like a hand in a glove, simply because the mentality is EXACTLY THE SAME.
BEWARE of this spiritual movement. There is a RAPID increase in this ’supposedly’ beneficial lifestlyle!! MANY of the teachings are delusional and psychotic (out of touch with reality) and BOY, can your world crash when someone, having apparant spiritual convicitions, someone you have trusted implicitly, turns on you like a rotweiller on CRACK… and then gaslights you SO brazenly and with such regularity that you question your morals, your standards, your own beliefs AND your own common sense… it’s severe enough to drive you to a nervous breakdown. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:06am
alohatraveler says:
Buzzibee,
You got it sister!
There is a big fat New age movement in Maui and that equates to some of the most lost people. While I do consider myself a believer in Christ, I have also spent many years in a very liberal area in the US. Before I moved to Maui, I got my Massage Therapy Diploma and used that to survive in Maui. I have been exposed to A LOT of New Age stuff… and I pick and chose carefully what I let in these days… especially after Maui. I understand what a spiritual darkness hangs over that area… especially among the mainland transplants that get swept up in this guru-foo-foo stuff.
The Bad Man wanted to go to the Unity Church in Maui a few times and I found it to be very creepy. It was nothing more than a “Me-fest” and I never once heard the words “Jesus” or “God” but I was invited many times to stare into the eyes of my neighbor and state “I love you.” BLECH!!!
While I love the Polynesian culture and their spiritual connection to the “Aina” (land), I noticed that the REAL local people were NOT at these New Age crapola workshops and Love-fests.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 3:10pm
alohatraveler says:
James,
I am glad you liked the article. It was sent to me by the Mother of a friend. My friend had mentioned what I had gone through. His Mother knew a woman who was being abused by her very relgious husband. She found the article I sent you and forwarded it to me wanting to know if it was the same thing. I read it and said, “Narcissim with a Religious Twist.”
It looks like in the article and I suspect the book, they completely miss the point that there is a personality disorder driving this and not an over zealous misinterpretation of the Bible.
Very sad. I can just imagine that these psychos are out there quoting scripture back and forth: One side trying to show the abuser how he is biblically wrong and the psycho quoting back his own version and interpretation of the truth.
All the while, it is being totally missed that this is someone that can not be fixed with a few Bible verses.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 3:40pm
alohatraveler says:
TrishNJ,
I have all but given up trying to share or get any understanding from anyone outside of LoveFraud. I find it to be too damaging to me and my relationships.
PEOPLE DO NOT GET IT…. THEY JUST DON’T!!!!
I accept that now.
I know I can put into words “what he did” but I can’t really put into words “how he did it.” When people hear what he did, all they can think about is what it wrong with me that I would put up with that.
We all have out pride and I hate look pathetic and stupid in front of people that I love and want to respect me.
You know how they sometimes have that clapping meter to measure how loud people are clapping on a TV show? When I try to explain to someone “what happened” it’s as if I can see an approval meter on their face and I can see the approval meter dropping fast right in front of me.
That is the visible measurement of people “not-getting-it” that you are seeing go across their face. If you want to see the approval meter go up, you can say, “Boy that was bad! But I sure learned a lot and I am moving on with my life!” Suddenly, you will see APPROVAL flash across their face! They will be SO proud of you… and you are also seeing relief as the burden to understand you is lifting.
This is just my opinion of course… it’s what I see around me.
Does anyone relate?
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 3:53pm
holywatersalt says:
aloha-
I was just today thinking the same thing about another problem…but yes, I definetly agree…..MOST people do not care or want to empathize…they want the gossip but not the obligation to care.
I have given up looking or hoping for a friend. In the past I was a decent friend and found reciprociy little and far in-between. I am fortunate I have a good husband, but no family or friends to speak of.
I got in trouble looking for a friend to lean on (due to an issue I can’t really speak to with hubby- too detailed to mention, he knows of issue but it’s his so he can’t really speak on it objectively)…psycho acted as if they were a friend….and then months later when I finally mustered up the courage to express my feelings…I got one of those disemboweling out-of-the-blue psycho reactions.
I will never forget it, though there are a few moments I will never forget now…all bad. Horrible. After I admitted my vulnerability, my need….I was told I was insane. Psycho tried to convince me Iwas insane…tried hard.
So to your point Aloha- I have stopped trying and really, I am finding I write and read more. Life is better in my shell and safer.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 4:07pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Aloha,
Absolutely, your analogy of the “approval meter” is definitely RIGHT ON!
I’m fortunate that I have family who “does get it” (my two sons) and friends who “do get it” that if I am really in need of a physical shoulder to cry on, I can have one (or at least on the telephone) but as for others, I’m with you and HWS, I don’t think they really WANT to be supportive, because that takes too much energy.
I read somewhere that most people have only 4 or 5 real friends. No matter how “well known” or “popular” people are, it seems that those people that most folks call “friends” are really pretty superfiscial acquaintences at best. We called them “fair weather friends” when I was a kid, because if bad times came they were GONE.
I’ve always felt that the people you are the closest to are not those that you “party” with anyway, but those people who were there when the BAD times came. Who were there for you when you went through the tough times.
Of course good friends also share the happy times, the good times, but I think what makes them so special is the bad times that they stay there with you for. One of the women I used to consider one of my CLOSEST friends, after my husband died simply said “well, just get over it”—and you know, that’s how she felt, I’m sure, but NOW I would never discuss with her the things I discuss with you guys, or let her know if I was “emotionally bleeding” because I NOW know that our friendship is very superfiscial and that she doesn’t want to discuss the deeper meanings of life or her feelings or mine.
I was there for her when she developed leukemia, in fact, I was the one who diagnosed it…and I was THERE for her the entire year she was in the hospital…but when the time came to support me, she was NOT there. That saddens me, but that happens some times. We give more to a friendship than when the time comes that we get back. For the most part, though, I have been very supported by the really good close friends that I do have, but even they from time to time get tired of listening, and that’s understandable unless they too have had a “personal” P experience.
For the “acquaintences” those I just say “I’m doing fine. How about those Cubbies?” LOL
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 5:42pm
alohatraveler says:
HolyWater and OxDover,
I want to clarify. It’s not that I think people don’t want to understand or care… especially loved ones.
I think that they can barely get that there is something they are not getting. So, if we drop the subject, there is relief.
The more we labor the point that they don’t get it, the more we try to explain what happened, the more it sounds unfathomable that we would put up with such behavior, the more we prove to them that we are pathetic, the more they just can not wrap their heads around what it means to be duped or abused by a pathological partner! Whew!
(Here I go laboring over my points again… )
Anyway, I just never get any relief talking to anyone about this stuff. Never.
Except I do like to “talk” to people here. I think we live in a different reality… a more real reality. Getting here is a rough trip and there ain’t no goin’ back! HAHA!
XO E
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 6:30pm
JaneSmith says:
There you go again creating another one of those awesome expressions, Aloha.
‘A more real reality’…..does it get any more realer than living your life with a PDI then in the aftermath, confirming to yourself through rigorous education, knowledge, constant self examination, finally learning the definition, the term to use for the PDI?
whew ditto.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 6:49pm
alohatraveler says:
Thanks Jane.
What is PDI? Is it Personality Disordered Individual?
Or Pathologically Disordered Individual?
I missed that day.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:17pm
OxDrover says:
Yea, Aloha, I think a “more real reality” is definitely IT! LOL You really come up with some great ones!
I know what you mean about some people (even ones that DO love us) just can’t get their heads around the “why” of what was done and the “why” of why we put up with it.
You know, I actually used to be ASHAMED that I did put up with it. That is was some character flaw in me that made me do it. I realize now that I didn’t set appropriate boundaries, and I’m working on correcting that, but it isn’t a “character flaw” or something bad or stupid in me, but it sure FELT that way for a while.
IF (and I repeat IF) someone who knows me think I should be “ashamed” or that there was some “character flaw” in me is why all this happened, they it is THEIR problem not mine. The people that I love and I know love me, don’t impute a “character flaw” to me, but to the Ps for their behavior.
This wasn’t something that I did, or you did, or anyone else but THEY DID the bad deeds. It may not have been good judgment on my part to stay around as long as I did, but it wasn’t because I was BAD, it was the Ps who were and are the bad apples. I did not victimize them, and you didn’t victimize the Bad Man, it was the other way round. It is only now that I am finally I think getting rid of the feelings of the shame of it. Logically I didn’t think I should be ashamed but the feelings are not always subject to “logic”—at least not at first. (smile)
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:34pm
Lib says:
Aloha:
I do relate. I have causiouly spoke to a couple of co-worker friends about “my” S and have received those same looks. I have learned by watching faces how much I can reveal.
My closest girlfriend (have talked almost daily for the last twelve years of our twenty five year friendship) and I have spoke only three times since February. She recognised “my” S for a bad person (but not an S) almost immediately. I talked to her about him, she was helpful, but couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t /couldn’t take her advise and just stop seeing him. I called her the morning after her birthday to ask if she wanted to go to lunch. She was so upset with me that I didn’t recognise her the day before that she hung up. She blames the S. for it, and blames me because she assumed he was still in my life. She thinks I’ve changed the last two years, DUH!!!
Today is my second day with NC (again) and I need her and miss her more that anything. I wish she “got it”.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:51pm
Lib says:
I have cautiously spoke. Sorry for the spelling errors.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:56pm
alohatraveler says:
Lib,
Keep trying. NC is the only way to go.
The longer you go NC, the clearer things will become.
In one of the essays somewhere on here, it says something like… each time we open the door for contact, it’s another opportunity for the Sociopath to see if they can make us bleed more.
For some reason, that really struck me.
In my case it was totally correct. Everytime I was in contact, even over email… it was.. POW! ZING! POP! WHAMO! (These are my sound effects for the hate bombs he would drop on me.)
Eventually, I realized how crazy it was for me to think that it might be different sometime. It never was. It was always the same and it always hurt even if the things he was saying were completely false.
Cling to NC as if your life depends on it. Offer youself some kind of reward… celebrate in some small way for every day you can stay NC.
:o)
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 8:10pm
blondie says:
i realize he can still get me but he doest need to know that.He called yesterday and i almost gave him and responded, but i didt. i didt call back, but i wanted to, i wanted to know what he wanted to say, but i talked myself out of it. thank god. i swear on my life he just calls just to see if i will respond, thinking well maybe this time she will respond. i think sometimes they go weeks or days without calling and then they call thinking its been awhile she will pick up this time.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 8:21pm
Lib says:
Thank you Aloha.
I did go shopping and bought myself a new wallet last night. One that he will never see the inside of.
However, I know I will see him again soon. Some of his mail comes here, he has his belongings in my garage and basement. He was off work yesterday and today (out cultivating another relationship.) He will probably call to “check on me” tommorow. It has taken all I have not to call and check on him. His doctor’s office called today trying to reach him. I will give him the message when he calls.
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 8:21pm
alohatraveler says:
A new wallet he will not see the inside of.. I LOVE IT!
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 9:40pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lib,
To avoid seeing him again, is there any way that you could have someone else pick up his mail and things? I’m with Aloha on this NO CONTACT is so healing, and any contact is like ripping the scab off the wound…it hurts and bleeds again.
You did well to buy a wallet he won’t see the inside of! Good thinking! You also did well not to call him back, and I know and I think everyone else here knows how hard that is to be strong enough not to call. But you are more powerful than you know…each day you will flex those power muscles and get stronger still..it’s like lifting weights or going to the gym, the more you do the stronger you become! Good going!
Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 10:22pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Lib.. I hope you keep coming here. The more I do the stronger and less alone I feel. The first day I found this site I was still so obsessed with my ex, and couldn’t even imagine not ever talking to him again. It’s getting better every day now, and I feel so much more happy just being myself.
Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 2:14am
Lib says:
Well, I picked at the scab tonight.
He called from work, like I knew he would. I answered, he thanked me for faxing a letter to the courts to keep a rapist in jail. This is a story…his 14 yr old daughter was raped last year (at 13) by a 20ish yr old family friend. S. has used this to his giant ego driven “why me God” benifit. That’s all I care to say on that.
S. works 16 hour shifts all weekend “counseling” addicts. so I won’t see him. I’ll have 5 days in a row without seeing him. Part of me views this as another stretch of NC and hope that eventually he will be totally out of my life. Another part of me misses his laugh and holding me while I sleep. Yet another part of me wants to call all the females I think he is talking to/seeing and tell them …what?
S. just called again. He needs more clothes from his storage in my basement. He keeps asking me how I am. I say “I’m ggod, I’m fine, I’m okay. He wants me to tell him I miss him or he wants me to be mad at him so he can create an arguement and then that will make him feel better for not seeing me or sleeping with someone else. I have to keeping telling myself and him “I’m okay”
Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 10:19pm
holywatersalt says:
Lib-
It’s up to you. Your post sounds like a play by play of a sporting event. Your in it, but so out-of-it you have repressed or projected reality into a :dramatic event” in which you watch your self as a puppet. YOU ARE IN CONTROL….not him.
Get a restraining order, get your head straight and get him out of your home and life. He has played the system..move, change your number, remove his things.
It’s up to you, really and the stakes are high…YOUR LIFE. Fight GIRL.
Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 10:26pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lib,
He will be out of your life when you take control of your life.
When you get ALL his stuff out of your storage, don’t take his calls, and don’t respond to him in any way. NO NO NO CONTACT, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, NONE. You can take control when YOU ARE READY TO TAKE CONTROL. As long as he can call you any time HE IS IN CONTROL.
When I train dogs, I AM IN CONTROL. I say the word and they jump. When he calls and you answer, HE IS IN CONTROL. The ONLY way you can take control is to TAKE CONTROL. As long as he speaks and you answer, HE IS IN CONTROL OF YOUR ACTIONS. When you take control, when you are ready, HE HAS NO MORE CONTROL.
You are a strong woman, you know the score. You can decide what you want and when you want it. When you are ready, take control. Take back your power. Then he will have NO control over you. (((hugs))))
Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 10:42pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
All true.. but I really feel like Lib too even though I have “enforced” no contact now.. I miss his arms dreadfully. I do not miss his bad side, but I miss his warm side. I just hope to god I never give in to these feelings again.
Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:36am
newworld view says:
i agree with holy ws….its like a sporting event…waiting for each side to make a play….and that only prolongs the pain for you….you could send an e mail that all his things will be out front for pick up on either blank or blank day…he can email which is better……..if they are not picked up by that date they will go to goodwill or salvation army…the end…YOU control that…..sometime hanging on to his things is a fantasy that things will return to how they were…THEY NEVER WILL..i tell you this A: because you ask and B: because in doing so i am also telling myself……it is not coming from a place of: i have all the answers…it is coming from a place of:we are in this battle together and lets help each other win and find peace……….sincerely, terri
Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 8:13am
OxDrover says:
The comment about a “sporting event” and each side making a play, is so RIGHT ON with these psychopaths. When you do X they automatically do Y to counter your “play.”
In reading the letters that my P-son wrote to his Trojan Horse P in manipulating our family, the “plays” were SO APPARENT. He had even coached the TH-P on how to do the religious parts, and advised him of various ways to appeal to my mother’s “pious” side so that she would feel like she had “saved” the TH-P.
When his plans feel through, and everything came to light and we stopped contact, when he HAD NO MORE INFORMATION, he went ballistic! Shooting in the “dark” without any idea what was going on here. NOT KNOWING which play to make, he tried them all, the pity letter, “Oh, poor me” and then the “angry letter” “you are letting me down” and the controling one “Give me a chance to fix this, I cann fix this” and then wrote to others to get THEM to call us and plead his case. Wrote to a minister friend of ours saying how we were not true Christians because we would not give him “UNconditional love”—I guess that meant that when we found out he was trying to kill us, we quit writing him, instead of pitying him, and horror of horrors, his money supply got cut off. LOL
If they have NO CONTACT, they don’t know which “play” out of the “Psychopaths play book” they need to use. CONTACT and knowledge of how you are doing seems to be necessary for them to figure out the next move. How can you play tennis if you can’t see your opponent? How can you play golf if you don’t know which direction the hole lies? I think the thing that makes NO CONTACT so effective is that it takes away their ability to know which play to put into action. It deprives them of INFORMATION necessary to perfect their ploys. To pick the perfect manuver to hook us back in.
Next week will be the one year anniversary of the arrest of the Trojan HOrse P and my X-DIL for trying to kill my son C. Except for two payments of $25 each that my mother sent my P-son, he has had no contact at all from any of us, no response from any of the telephone calls he conned others into making for him. NO INFORMATION about how we are doing. No information even indirectly about how we are doing. All he knows is that the plot blew up, his two confederates both went to jail and his entire family quit communicating with him.
The information I have had about him, indirectly, and from the letters he continues to write to others, shows that he is FRUSTRATED TO THE MAX. He is furious that he is no longer in control. He is angry because he NO LONGER HAS AN AVENUE TO MANIPULATE US. All attempts have failed. NO RESPONSE is TOXIC to him. It is like pouring salt on his wounds, because he felt like he was SO IN CONTROL and now, NO CONTROL, NO INFORMATION. Nothing he does, no play that he puts out there, has any response. No feed back at all. The ultimate defeat of a psychopath. In my P-son’s case, there isn’t even a new victim available.
There was so long after I had “written him off” that I kept writing to him, TELLING HIM OFF, but that gave him information to USE AGAINST ME. At least with him, I no longer even have a twinge of wanting to “tell him off” because I KNOW HOW IT MAKES HIM SQUIRM to not have any information.
Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:04am
Lib says:
Thank you Ox Drover, newworld view, kat_o_nine_tales, holywatersalt and aloha:
You are right, it does seem like a slow moving tennis match right now, and I’m rationalizing in my head that tennis is better than a fast paced hockey game for a relationship. I know how ridiculous this is.
I feel I need some type of closure. Just getting rid of his stuff isn’t going to be enough. Ox, how long did you write those letters before you stopped? Did it make you feel better to write? How many of you contacted the other “victims”? Did you fell better or worse? I read somewhere “Hell hath no fury like a woman dubed by a sociopath.” I am not a vindictive person, but I need to do something!
Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 6:19pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
OMG Lib I wrote and wrote and wrote.. I called, visited and begged. Then I left him alone for months, tried to forget him.. and lo and behold who should come knocking on my door one day.
Well though I agonized over it, I ended up breaking up with a really nice honest man to go back with him. Unfortunately I didn’t do it quickly enough, or something, because he immediately started ignoring me again, and insisted it was “my request” that he let me go.
Years ago I wrote letters aplenty to my husband to try and make him understand what I was going through. I was later stunned to find him and his P-mother trying to use them against me in court. It hurt and scared me so much that to this day I am afraid to write down any of my feelings for fear someone will find them and use them against me.
Write, talk if ya gotta, but I think these guys are right in saying, get his crap outta your house and it will be a start.
Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 8:04pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lib,
I went to visit my son in January of 07, and I saw in that face to face visit that he was indeed PROUD of the murder he committed, not ashamed, not remorseful, that he was actually proud that he was a “billy bad ass.” DUH? And then seconds later, and I mean SECONDS later, the mask came back down and he was saying “But Mommmm, what would Jesus do?” HUH? The words from Robert Hare’s book “Without Conscience” came ringing in my ears—and I knew that I would never visit him again. But I wrote him letters to try to explain WHY until April or somewhere in that neighborhood. All the while he is plotting to KILL ME…he used the letters that I wrote to him to convince my mother I was crazy…and I am sure that many of them would have sounded crazy to someone who didn’t know how my heart had been ripped out. How badly I was hurting, knowing that my son not only was a killer but a stone-cold killer proud of what he did.
I too “wanted closure”—but not only me but many people on this site have BEGGED for some kind of closure from the psychopaths and THE ONLY CLOSURE I GOT WAS FROM ME. I had to MAKE MY OWN CLOSURE. Maybe some people get “closure” from the Psychopath, but my thoughts are that FEW of us do. I got closrue with the DIL and the Trojan Horse of a sort, when they were hauled off to jail. Plus, I didn’t have an emotional relationship with either of them so there was no “love lost” there.
With my mother though, I had to make my own closure…she wasn’t going to admit her own lies, or her enabling of my psychopathic son. The only way we got her to quit sending him money and letters was that my other biological son C told her that if he caught her doing that and found out that he would go NO CONTACT with her as well, and then she would have NO ONE that would even speak to her from the family. She would be TOTALLY alone.
I think making our OWN closure, setting that boundary of NO CONTACT is probably as close as we can come to getting “closure.”
Even after you set a PHYSICAL No Contact boundary, and enforce it, there is another type of “boundary” or No contact and that is “emotional no contact” where you quit renting them space in your head. You quit missing them, quit wanting to “explain” to them, or “get them to see”—Aloha and I both admitted that for weeks, months, we would drive down the road “talking to them” in our heads or outloud, just like we were actually TALKING to them. We both joked that other drivers must have thought we were CRAZY WOMEN beating on the dashboards, and yelling at the windshields.
I’m not sure how long I went on doing that, but for quite a while. But then one day I realized I wasn’t doing it any more. I can even think about my P son now and not feel sad, mad, frustrated, angry, and there isn’t anything I want to tell him any more. I don’t worry about his physical safety, I don’t even want to know if he is healthy or not. I guess if he is dead the prison will notify us, but my sons and I have decided that we will not claim the body. The “boy” we loved is “dead” he just doesn’t have a grave. The prison can bury the “man” that “murdered my son” and took over his body. The “Man” is a stranger, and I don’t know him. I don’t want to know him. He isn’t part of my life. The little boy “disappeared” years ago, to be replaced by someone whose heart is evil.
When my husband died, I knew he would not come back, when my sweet little boy “died” I kept hoping I could keep him on “life support” until the man he became returned to being the son I loved. It didn’t happen. It couldn’t happen. So I had to make my own closure for the “death” of the boy I loved. Bury him in my heart, and accept that he is “gone.”
The person you thought loved you is “no more” and is “gone” though the body may be walking around, just like my son’s is. But the persons we both loved never existed in reality they were a fantasy, projected like a hologram. They looked real, our love for them was real, but the relationship was one sided, it wasn’t mutual. It felt like it was real, and that felt wonderful. But now it is gone. That is our closure, the only closure we can get. We can’t fix it, we can’t return to it, it is DEAD AND GONE. We grieve over the loss. The loss was REAL to us.
We were victimized because we cared, because we could love. We were sold a “bottle of snake oil” as “genuine love” but it turned out to be fake, so we are disappointed, and rightly so. We were scammed, Conned, used, abused, treated like dirt. That hurts. If my son had been killed in a car wreck or an accident like my husband it would have been awful, but I think NOT HALF SO PAINFUL as knowing that the child I bore became a man who wants me dead so he can have my possessions that I worked for, and he feels entitled to.
The sad fact is if I had a magic wand and could get him out of prison tomorrow and give him $100 million in gold, it would not be a week before he had done something illegal, immoral and criminal…it is the THRILL of doing something bad that he loves. It isn’t the money itself, it is the “game” he enjoys playing. Impressing himself and others with what a Billy Bad Ass he is.
The only consolation I have is that NO CONTACT frustrates his plans, his con, renders him POWERLESS and IMPOTENT to accomplish his games. That’s as close to “justice” as I can get for him. That and doing my best to see that he spends the rest of his natural life in prison.
Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:00pm
Lib says:
Thank you all for this outlet!
I know I need to find my own closure. I know I will not get closure from him. He brags that he can go back to any of the women he has had relationships with and be their friend. This has made me think in the past that I am whacko or that I must be as stupid as those women. Surely out of the 600 or so women he has been with, one or two of them have experienced what I am going through. This makes me want to contact them for my closure, but I don’t know if I should.
Tonight, a girlfriend from work will be helping me deliver the rest of his summer clothes and shoes to his new place, while he is at work. She is then taking me to a comedy club to celebrate one week since he has been to my home. Baby steps.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:14pm
Beverly says:
Sorry Lib, but I had to do a double take! How many women??!? I think if I found out a partner of mine had been with that many women, I would be running a mile without any conversation whatsoever. Problem is that we dont often know at first what their history is, they will often edit, or omit certain details. During my time with the exN and when we had a break, much to his annoyance, I went and spoke to his ex girlfriend about him, and then as things started to reveal themselves as not right, I realised that he had been completely different with her and I realised that he had modified his behaviour in the relationship, in a sense he had dragged his baggage from his last gf into the relationship with us. If only they came with a log book of prior history, rather like a car, it would be so much easier.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:37pm
henry says:
My X bragged about his friend’s. He would call them often and leave messages and they never returned his calls. I even had him a big birthday party and invited his so called friend’s, none showed up. One time when we were arguing I said you don’t have any friend’s and he said “yes I do, If I really pushed it” all of his friend’s are new friend’s they don’t stay around for long. Beside’s he preferred the company of stranger’s.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:38pm
henry says:
Lib congrats on the one week!! It is week 16 for me, it get’s better……..
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:41pm
Beverly says:
Henry, my ex had only one friend who had fathered 6 kids by 6 different women and he punched the women and this man, although in his late 40s is like a kid. I kept thinking - now what would my ex see in a friend like THAT??? Now i realise, it is like finding the meaning to all those odd things they did.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:24pm
OxDrover says:
[Quote Henry] “all his friends are new friends, they don’t stay around for long.”
When they first meet him they think he is cool and nice, but very quickly they see he is not nice or cool and is a user and they drop him.
[Quote Henry] “he preferred the company of strangers”
Strangers haven’t yet caught on to him and he can get positive feed back from them for a short time. He has found that people who know him quickly move on, so he keeps his ego intact by a continual meeting of new people for a short time. I think people who hang out in clubs or bars on a regular basis use this as a way of life for socializing because it is all so superfiscial and short term. A perfect hunting ground for psychopaths to latch on to new victims.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:45pm
blondie says:
has anyone ever read When Your Lover Is A Liar by Susan Foward? this is book is great, i suggest everyone read it. they have a section about sociopaths. if anyone has read it let me know what you think?
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 3:12pm
Lib says:
Beverly:
You read correctly. This S. did come with a log book of sorts. He gave me three of his journals to read over the last 15 years since he haas been clean. In 1999 he had been with well over 300 women he had counted and just lumped all the dial a date meet ups as one. In 2005, when I met him, he talked of repeating the same behaviors over and over, including all the sex to boost his self esteem and trying to keep the lust under control. Without his knowledge, I have read his 4th step which included a list of women he could remember, what he thought of them and what he got from the sex. He also listed the first, second and third woman that he had hit. He seemed remorseful in his private writings. I didn’ t read any of this until the last couple of months and I have not mentioned any of it to him.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 6:34pm
OxDrover says:
Lib, just because in his “private” writings he seemed remorseful doesn’t mean he wasn’t purposely saying these things to SHOW others. My son was really good at that sort of wrting. FAKE FAKE FAKE. But he was good at it.
Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 7:50pm
Lib says:
I just got home from celebrating one week w/o him in my home. One of the comedians I saw talked about part-time christians, fake men, and how sex and weed rules over Jesus for black men. It was really funny, but interesting to watch all the women laugh who could relate to this and seamingly just accept it.
I then took the rest of S’s clothes to his home. He was there. He left work early because he had “words” with the nurse. Big surprise, he’ll probably get fired from this job too. I didn’t turn the van off or get out of my seat. As he took out the large container of clean, folded summer clothes, the hamper full of clean socks and underwear, he complained and tried to argue about the three trash bags of dirty clothes becuase I didn’t wash them. I gave him the facts on his clothes and didn’t buy into his negative stuff. He called before I got home to apologize for “snaping on me” and wanted to see how I was doing. This reinforces what I need to do. Things really happen for a reason.
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:00am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Dear Oxy,
You are like a mother to us here, (no reference to age implied :D), so incredibly wise. My heart goes out to you so much for having your own flesh and blood turn on you like that. My first husband was just the same way, even admitted years later that he was plotting to murder me (ya think? he was outright practicing)
I remember lying in bed one night and I got this weird feeling. I opened my eyes, it was black dark that night, but I could hear someone breathing. He had climbed in the window. He climbed onto the bed and pulled off my clothes, then put his hands around my throat. He had done this before as a “joke”, but this time I knew he was not pretending.
Even this attempt on my life was laced with psychological terror. He was reminding me that he could get into our house no matter how much I locked it up, because it was so old and there were so many cracks and broken panes (his work as well).
The use of his bare hands was also a message. When we were in karate class together we all used to play a game where we tried to break raw potatoes by squeezing them. He was the only one who could do it, they would not only break they would explode. He was a carpet man for many years and had the strongest fingers I’ve ever seen.
This time I played dumb, I played along, I pretended he was “only” trying to rape me, (one of his favorite pastimes) instead of murder me. I pretended I wanted sex with this murderous man, and I escaped with my life.
But through it all I had one consolation, my kids were faithful. Sometimes they fell for his lies temporarily, sometimes they were confused about what was true, but he never succeeded in turning them against me.
I have one son who is very much like his father. I am trying my best to bring him up right, trying my best to warn him about the consequences of becoming a sociopath. Sometimes he will take one step in that direction, such as putting me down when he is angry about having to do chores.
This used to hurt me, but now I see it for what it is, he’s trying out the persona. So now I tell him, “Nice try, very much like your dad. I hope for your sake and mine that is not the path you choose in life.. but for now, since you are still under my roof, because you chose to show your anger by disrespecting me, now you are doing double chores. (can only hope it all sinks in, but all his sibs are watching him too.. )
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:55am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
And oh .. Lib.. two thumbs up!!!
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:57am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
I hope you are successful in directing your son in the proper path, but if he choses not to take the proper path, the only thing I can say is to cut the string when you recognize that there is nothing else you can do. It hurts to “give up” on your kid, but when they are psychopaths there is nothing else to do. Especially if they go the criminal route. Mine chose that criminal route and it was like he was DETERMINED to go to prison.
I don’t take being called “like a mother” as an insult at all, I enjoyed being a mother, and I still do, but now I don’t boss the kids around as they are men and they “boss me around” now. LOL “Mom, get off that ladder NOW” “Mom, quit doing that you’re gonna kill yourself” “Mom, let me do this, sit down and you can supervise me, but let me do it.” LOL
They tell me if I don’t “behave” now, that when I get infirm, they will put me in a nursing home, take my teeth away and feed me lumpy oatmeal with a straw! LOL
Kat, that must have been very scary for you with your X–I can’t even imagine how you kept your cool through that. I hope he has lost his murderous rage at you.
Lib–so he was mad cause you didn’t WASH all his clothes! OH WELLL!!!!! I hope you’ve got all his stuff out of your house so you don’t have to even answer the phone for him any more. Good going!
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:13am
newworld view says:
kat….how absolutely frightening for you….shows how utterly impulsive they are….maybe he came in with a plan and your quick thinking allowed his childish impulses to forget why he was really there…shudderring!!!!!!!!!
and lib you are a far kinder person than i…….i let him know when his junk would be outside and had a prearranged police car there to oversee his picking up his junk and getting out…..i had just bought him a steve mcqueen tag huer watch and decided NOT to put it in the pile nor the very nice ties i had just bought him and he had the gall to leave a message asking for them….and he was going to get an attorney to get his slot cars back……i had taken many items to the salvation army and perhaps these were some of the things……go ahead..i felt get an atty to get back SLOT cars?? i didnt even know what they were…how childish………..what a jerk……i DID get a letter from a WOMAN atty and responded that they could do what they needed, but common sense says why would i return big item and keep stupid childish slot cars….that ended that……..but oh how much that atty really didnt know
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:54am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Thx guys for sympathy.. god that was so many years ago it feels like it happened to somebody else. Of course I didn’t tell anyone about it for a long time… they would not have believed me. I was so shocked to find myself alive at the end of this relationship.
Oxy.. heck no he hasn’t lost his rage at me. In his mind I ruined his life by having his kids (how I’m not sure, since he never visits them or pays for them) I’ve become his backstory and scapegoat, whenever he moves on to new pastures. My only safety from him lies in NC and being moved to the “back burner” of his mind.
He’s also expanded his rage, and my daughter is afraid he has now murdered his gf. She has disappeared, and their apt. building mysteriously burnt down right after that, and now he has left the state and is hiding out somewhere out West. He keeps sending my daughter messages saying he is back together with his gf, and that she is “very ill” and will likely die.
About my son.. I will never give up on him, but neither will I ever enable him. We have a pretty good relationship, and he has way more conscience than his dad, so we are all pretty hopeful but like I said, watchful.
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 6:55pm
newworld view says:
dear kat…….pls have someone, even anonymously, give that info to police somewhere….PLEASE
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 7:29pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kat,
I agree with NEWWORLDVIEW–I think the police MUST BE TOLD about the GF’s disappearance and the burning of the building. It is not outrageous (given the things you have told us about this man) that indeed he did kill her. My son is a murder, and has attempted to have ME killed (you see why I advised you to cut the cord if you see ANYONE i s a psychopath) and I know of at least TWO people my bio-father actually killed (he claimed more) so I am WELL aware of what these RAGEFUL P’s can do. Sometimes these people go on to being serial killers and a phone call to alert the police is all the need to “get on to” these people. You don’t have to let them know who you are. At least think about it.
My son is in prison for the first (known) murder and I will make it my life’s work to see that he stays there the REST of his natural life because I have no doubt that if he gets out I will either have to go back into hiding or eventually kill him to protect myself. If he gets out after I am dead and gone, he will go after his brothers and/or some unsuspecting fools that get into his way. Your X sounds just like my P-bio father or my P-son. They are the worst of the worst, the RABID predators without any fear at all. I am thankful to God that you got out alive. I’m also glad that your son has a conscience, that’s a big plus in your and his favor!
Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:14pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I am going to give it to the police but it would be filed away somewhere if I did it now, because I do not know her last name, or where he went. My daughter and I are trying to find all this stuff out then I will most definitely take it to the police and also try to make sure they investigate it.. BUT.. there is no way I will confront him because I will be next.
I escaped from him once.. I do not know if I will be so lucky next time. My poor daughter is having a battle of wills with him over the e-mail, with both of them trying to pump the other for information.
One of our biggest concerns is he is trying to find out info on my oldest son who just got back from Iraq. If he does find him, my son’s combat pay will be gone in a flash, as he is no match for his dad’s manipulative ways.
My daughter is trying to get him to let her speak to the gf on the phone, because they know each other, but I am worried about her doing this little investigation. People in my exes circle are only safe as long as they don’t threaten his “existence” (meaning his lifestyle). At the moment she is living in Norway and I’m so glad she has that distance. Dammit that man will never just go away. Sometimes I do wish he would just die, it would be so much better for the rest of the world.
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:04am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Also.. you guys oughta know by now how ineffective the police can be when dealing with this stuff. If he did kill his gf, it will be almost the only crime he has ever committed. He’s changed his name and moved several times, they will never put the effort into finding him without a body or something, anything to make them suspicious. We also have no proof he burned the apt. building, heck I don’t even think anyone knows where it is. We all thought it was just a story he fed the kids to explain why he couldn’t do anything for christmas yet again. The best I can do is keep my eyes open and try to collect the facts, for now.
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:09am
newworld view says:
kat…..you and your daughter should stop your investigation..dont SHOW him your interest…..give the authorities his name and info…they can track via isp addresses if they want or other phone and addresses by any aliases he is using…they can…you two must stay safe
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:59am
OxDrover says:
Kat, I agree with NWV that you and your daughter would be better off to tell the police. Don’t suppose that they won’t listen, belive me the POLICE were the ONLY ONES WHO DID LISTEN TO ME.
My X-BF did burn the home of his previous GF and we were not able to prove it (arson is a difficult thing to prove) but if the GF is missing that should start some red flags with the police and keep him under suspicion. The police do take a dim view of the perp for missing persons. They may not always be able to “get them” but many times they do. Even years and years later.
You already know that this man is dangerous and capable of murder. Not all cops sweep this kind of thing under the rugs, there are some tough old detectives out there that just as a matter of princlple will go after someone like this and moving from state ot state may not help him get away with it all.
Give the police a chance to do their jobs, if they don’t know anything, they can’t do it. and ABOVE ALL BE CAREFUL.
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 12:39pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Tell them what though? That some girl named Michelle something disappeared from some town in NY that we don’t know about and that my ex who is living I do not know where might have done something to her?
And who would I tell?
The town cops here? lol you can’t imagine how futile that would be
I need more info.
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 1:48pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I don’t even know what state he moved to or what alias he is living under. We don’t even have a phone number.. and I’m doing anything to piss him off at my daughter or me, not while he’s free.. but I will try to get info .. all I can do right now.. at least her last name.
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 1:51pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Thanks peoples.. as far as being safe though.. if the police come knocking on his door I know he will come straight to me unless her parents are looking for her. I heard they weren’t because she had been slowly pulling away from them for the last few years. Also she might have just gone home.. sigh.. don’t worry I won’t do any investigating, but I’m not ever taking my eye off that snake.
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 5:32pm
newworld view says:
good kat ..i want yout and your daughter to be safe…i think your gut was right when you were afraid he may choke you, even if it was a long time ago…he just got moreconfident he could get away with it..or the impulsiveness took over……you could just give his name and some former address and they take it from there……stay safe
Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:48pm
Tood says:
blondie says:
has anyone ever read When Your Lover Is A Liar by Susan Foward? this is book is great, i suggest everyone read it. they have a section about sociopaths. if anyone has read it let me know what you think?
Blondie, that book was the first one I found after my spouse revealed his true face to me. I returned to the chapter on sociopaths again and again, each time saying “Yes, this is it. This is what he is.”
I asked my older children to read that chapter and all agreed, “Yes, that’s him.”
That book set me on the road to truth.
Wednesday, 30 July 2008 @ 12:53pm
gypsy1 says:
The truth around sociopaths and religion needs to be kept centerstage. I have long maintained that religious sociopaths are particularly dangerous. Why? Because religion is a powerful means of control to others with the same religious convictions. Religious sociopaths are amazingly good at “talking the (religious) talk” and getting others to let their guard down and trust them. Their charming front makes them great preachers. It’s easy to be fooled by these con artists. How easy? I met my ex on a Christian dating site. He had been a pastor of various churches and has a Bible site on the web. He had told me that he had hit his wife once or twice and regretted it, but I later learned that he battered her repeatedly throughout their marriage, kicking, punching, and even choking her. He told me that his kids would not talk to him because of his “evil witch” wife. The truth was (I later found out), he had hit and threatened his kids and there was a protective order in place that I never knew about! Shortly after we married, he began to threaten me also. And this is only the tip of the iceberg with him. He continues to lie about all of it to others, saying he is a “victim”, and continues to publish Christian newsletters and get a following for himself.
Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 11:01am
kat_o_nine_tales says:
I always think about that poor 19 year old girl named “Esther” who was found after she tried to kill herself. She was the adopted daughter of a pastor and his wife, who had apparently adopted her for the sole purpose of making her the family slave. She was beaten mercilessly for her entire miserable life until she escaped. Now she is a shy troubled twenty-something, and fears all Christians. This is such a crying shame. These religious sociopaths are super dangerous because they are elevated above “normal” society and given way too much power. Usually you find out about them when they are put in jail for some unspeakable crime, or when they kill off their “congregation” in a mass suicide or shoot-out with the cops. This makes the whole Christian community look like a bunch of freaks.
Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 11:32am
OxDrover says:
Dear Gypsy1,
Welcome to Donna’s healing site. Thank you for sharing your story about your X–unfortunately there are so many others just like him out there.
Kat, you are so right about that, and the “forgiveness” aspect of religion is so twisted to mean “pretend none of this happened” but that is NOT the definition of “forgiveness” that is appropriate or right or good. The Ps are so good at taking some scripture out of context and twisting the meaning to mean something entirely perverted, to help them maintain their power and their control.
Even within families this perverted view of religion is used as a club to emotionally and spiritually BATTER members of the family. I was a victim of this emotional and spiritual religious abuse by being told by my mother that if I didn’t “forgive” (her definition of “pretend the abuse never happened”) that I was going to hell and burn forever. It is only NOW at 61 years old that I have finally said NO MORE to this guilt and fear battering.
Unfortunately, many people who are religiously abused turn their backs on not only their twisted abusers but on the very spiritual support that TRUE religion and belief can give. This abuse robs these people not only of their happiness it deprives them of their spiritual support as well. What twisted wicked evil people these predators are.
These are the spiritual descendants of the men who cried for the Crucifixion of Jesus, and slew the prophets and burned others at the stake for daring not to agree with their twisted beliefs. I have more respect for the Roman emperors who threw the Christians to the lions for sport than for those people who IN THE NAME OF GOD use religion to persecute and abuse others.
One day standing in line at the grocery store (a long one) I picked up some magazine and was reading, the article I read was about the palatial homes of the TV preachers. These homes are in the middle of large estates, well out of the “view” of the public. Some reporter had flown a helicopter over these mansions to take photographs of these HUGE AND COSTLY estates. There were estates listed and shown for just about every “well known name” in TV preaching. I thought it was actually funny, but also sad, that these people, like the Bakers had become so wealthy while begging for “donations” on TV.
I have no problem with any minister/priest/pastor etc being “paid” but to pay them like a rock star is absolutely unconscionable to me. I think many of these people are at the BEST interpretation Narcissists and at the worst psychopaths. For a while my son shared a cell with a “preacher” who had been a in a big “mega church” and quite wealthy, but he was a serial rapist. The man was a raging Psychopath from my son’s description and loved to recount his “conquests” before he was finally caught and sent to prison for life, I hope it is life without parole, but I’m not sure about the actual sentence. “Life” sometimes means as little as 15 years.
Then you get to the “cover ups” with the pedophile priests. The church itself knowing what was going on and not reporting these men to the police, just transferring them to another place where they continued their abuses of children by the hundreds. I may be “clinically” in error, but I equate child abuse and pedophilia with psychopaths, one and the same.
Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 12:28pm
apt/mgr says:
Seeing on the news about Mary Winkler getting her children back, I thought of this post. The news media is calling her a preacher killer. I don’t condone what she did, but I could see how one snaps. When this “man of God” puts a woman in a position that requires her to perform against her will, it causes something to die inside. It’s so demoralizing. And especially coming from a man who is supposed to be called of God. You would think those ones at least, would be the most sensitive and understanding of a woman’s needs. They should understand the whole sexual process better than most. They use their standing to cover the pervertedness of their minds. Like who would believe that of them. They are godly. Yeah right.
God’s word says a man who is called to preach and teach will be judged more harshly. They should be above reproach, but it seems like they think they are God and can do anything. Who’s going to question a “man of God”? I have lost so much respect for the man of the cloth. When the truth finally comes out about their personal life and what they subject their wife to, I no longer want to hear what they have to say.
We read about some who are having trysts with gays who denounce them vehemently. There’s the old bishop who convinced a naive parishioner that in order to be right with God, she had to have sex with him. There’s the head of the southern district whose wife divorced him due to his abuse, but yet he continues in his service. I don’t want to listen to someone who beats up his wife, tell me how to worship God and live for Him. I’m so glad God brought me out of the religious movement and gave me a spiritual awakening. I understand that God forgives, but these ones don’t seem to show remorse for their sins, but will continue to condemn others to Hell.
I will no longer, in my life that’s left, be used for sex, thrown away after, but made to feel guilty if I complained, like it’s a God given duty for the woman to perform and be available. Bull pucky. If it’s not a mutual happening, then it’s rape, no matter if one is married or not. No one should make another uncomfortable where sex is concerned, and especially those who want to be looked up to as a “man of God”. They use their position to seduce and entice. There’s nothing godly about their approach to life. No wonder people don’t trust the churches anymore. I don’t say this of all of them, but there’s been enough that it makes one leery of telling their hurts to a minister. Satan will use anyone for his purpose. We have to constantly be on the alert.
Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 3:11pm
OxDrover says:
I just did some reading on Mary Winkler and “comment” blogs where people post opinions of various newspaper or internet articles. On one, Mary was Blasted and DAMNED by almost everyone who posted (and Yea, I know, it’s not scientific) but anyway one woman who casually knew her posted that from the time she met Mary and her husband she felt like he was an abuser. So this casual meeting obviously sparked something in this woman who said “She looked like someone stomped her puppy, and when I met him, I knew it wasn’t her puppy that had been stomped.”
I don’t know many of the details about Mary murdering her husband except that she had been involved in some “crazy” things financially etc. and that she alleged abuse after the trial got underway. She was given “voluntary manslaughter” and is out on probation and has been seeing her children for about a year while they lived with her late husband’s parents, and now has custody of them.
Many of us have heard of “PKs” (preacher’s kids) who sometimes –often enough to get a nick name–turn out to be pretty rowdy or dysfunctional. Mary’s husband was not only a PK but he was a preacher himself so there may have been a lot of stress and pressure to “conform” at least outwardly to a “certain way of life”—I am speculating here–but whatever happened in that family, a terrible price has been paid by everyone involved. Whether Mary’s husband was or was not an abuser, I hope that the children are receiving therapy, and I don’t think that they should suffer any more for WHATEVER happened to provoke her to kill her husband.
Sometimes in these situations where a divorce is the OBVIOUS answer to others, that isn’t an “option” for a “man of the cloth” who would most likely do everything possible to prevent a crack in his feet of clay and his public persona.
Whatever happened, my sympathy goes out for the chldren, and for Mary as well, and to the parents of her dead husband. Apparently according to the news articles, they were in agreement with the return of the children to their mother, it was NOT a court ordered thing (at least at this time). So there seems, to me at least, some agreement by the dead husband’s parents that Mary is a good mother.
I pray for them all.
Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 6:01pm
B.T. Clusters says:
Another great example is David Miscavige, the guy in charge of the Scientology cult. Here’s an article about him:
http://www.indybay.org/newsite.....529112.php
Saturday, 23 August 2008 @ 10:32pm
Stargazer says:
This is a particularly interesting topic. I had met my Sociopath on a reptile site. In his profile under favorite books, he listed first “The Bible”. And I notice since our split he has quoted a biblical phrase in his signature “let he who has never sinned cast the first stone” or something like that. When we were together, I asked him several times about his religious beliefs. He said he really wasn’t very religious at all.
He also told me he’d fought twice in Iraq and was getting a medical discharge for a head injury. But when I questioned him about whether he believed in why he was there, if he felt patriotic, etc., he said it was just a job.
I remember thinking at the time that he nearly lost his life for a cause that he could care less about? And that he mentioned the Bible in his profile, but never acted the least bit concerned about religion with me? Very odd.
Saturday, 23 August 2008 @ 11:10pm
alohatraveler says:
Stargazer,
The Bad Man always put barbs in his next persoanl ad about the last person… kind of like your guys biblical quote. They want you to read it and feel bad… like you were the sinner that cast the stones.
I was struggling to get myself established and everytime I broke things off wtih the BM, he always put things like, “Looking for a woman who can support herself” (even though no one was helping me) or “a woman who knows how to resolve and BE LOVE.” He was just trying to make me feel bad for leaving him when he was being abusive and cast doubt in my mind..
Sunday, 24 August 2008 @ 1:47am
betrayed says:
The sociopath I know will pretend to be ANYTHING that gets him where he wants to be. Right now, he IS pretending to be religious and a conservative because that’s what his current girlfriend is. I know him to be an atheist, and I’ve known him his entire life. He’s my brother.
Wednesday, 10 September 2008 @ 9:09am
OxDrover says:
Dear Betrayed,
Yep, they can definitely pretend to be anything! Quote scripture with the best’uv’em!
I’m sorry you had to grow up with a psychopath, it’s a difficult journey to have them in your family.
Wednesday, 10 September 2008 @ 10:39am
moraira43 says:
My boss at work is a real bully and I think she is a sociopath after educating myself. she is a self styled guru who wears all the religious clothing. she is an ex heroin addict. I found out from someone who used to know her. All her superiors think she is a very spiritual woman with inner peace. she never talks about her past to anyone. She has been married a few times she met the latest one on a trip to india. she said she is bored with him and he isnt what she expected. She makes me feel very uneasy, she does this thing where she stares straight at you and gets in your personal space. She makes out she is supportive but she is very critical and undermining and she makes constant digs at me. A colleague complained about her and she made her life a misery, constantly finding fault with her work and getting her in the office on trumped up charges. She tried to turn me against the colleague saying it was her causing the boss to be upset, she said she had it in for her. At the same time she was pretending to be supportive again to the colleague. I told the colleague to be on her guard and the boss found out so I became a victim.
She spends most of the time on the internet and she does not support the team, she does minimal work, but her boss’s think she is marvellous because she tells them all the time that it is her holding the place together. She makes really nasty comments to me when no one is around some of the things she has said to me are quite disturbing, but pretends support and feigns incredulity when challenged by management on how she is acting towards me. Even a senior manager who I have known for 5 years before her who I used to have a very good working relationship with is taken in, I tried to discuss it with her but she wont listen. She has got rid of quite a few people, normally the more experienced older workers who speak their minds. she makes sure that she has evidence that she is being nice to you, she will be really nasty and then u will receive a txt out of the blue with a nice supportive message and kisses, i know she probably keeps them stored on her phone as evidence in case I report her.
Younger workers who are her followers are given responsibility over the more experienced workers, she also has favourites and is quite sickly with them. They must see how unfair she is but no one speaks out to support me. Only 2 of us remain who can see what she is and we are both getting ill all the time, I’m sure its the stress. she has no compassion but if one of her followers even has a slight headache she sends them home. recently i was diagnosed with a life threatening illness, all she said when i told her was i should consider giving up work and if i couldnt afford it i should downsize. but occupational health told me after they had spoken to her that i had a really supportive manager and i was lucky. they have hinted i may not be able to go back and do my current job, i think she has something to do with this.
I cant stand it much longer, I know its no good going to higher management to complain as they are all taken in by her act, what can you do in this situation. I certainly think she uses the spirituality to fool people.
I seem to attract sociopaths, i must have victim written all over me.
Saturday, 27 September 2008 @ 7:00pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Moraira,
I saw a psychopathic manager ruin an entire hospital’s nursing staff, the entire hospital lost all but one nurse that had been there. It ended up with the DON being fired, the p being fired, the adm being fired,and since it was a specialty hospital there were not enough nurses of that special skill to maintain it and the hospital was sold. I saw it coming and so did a few others, but we were powerless. It happens.
I suggest that you get a small pocket digital tape recorder and put it in your pocket when you are around this woman so that you can PROVE WHAT SHE SAYS. Keep it secret until you NEED IT. PROTECT YOURSELF ALWAYS when in the presence of a P. Use it for your H also.
I suggest that if you dont’ at this time want to go NC with your mom, just AVOID her totally until things calm down for you.DO NOT give out any information on what you are doing, even to your sisters as they will take it to her. Keep your life as SIMPLE and CALM as possible. I know that is difficult when you are surrounded by Ps and hostile, toxic people. Believe me I have BEEN THERE AND HAVE THE TEE SHIRT, SEVERAL IN FACT! lol
Saturday, 27 September 2008 @ 7:58pm
moraira43 says:
Luckily my mum is in a different country now so there is not as much influence. I did confide in my sister about my situation with S and I asked her not to repeat it, I think I was just checking that what he was doing was wrong as I have a problem with boundaries, I have now realised I dont know how far I should allow someone to go before I say enough. She said to me that I needed to tell the whole family so I had support, I said I didnt want anyone else to know. She contacted my other sister about it and they both said I had to tell mum. I have told them I dont want her to know as it will turn into a big drama for her. Mum telephoned me out of the blue yesterday and I could tell she was waiting for me to say something to her, I didnt, so she just told me how hard her life was at the moment full of drama as usual.
I do think that p’s and s’s choose their victims wisely, I think they have a sixth sense on who would be a good victim. I have an appt with a work dr next week, I’m thinking I need to confide about my manager, there may be an option that I can be relocated with the same health service. At the moment i am willing to do anything to get away from this boss.
people who have been through this are the wisest people and I dont know if they understand how invaluable their incite is for people who are at the start of their journey.
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 6:56am
moraira43 says:
just to add I have not had any of the support that was offered to get me to tell tham my story, I havent heard from any of them since!
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 6:58am
OxDrover says:
Dear Moraira,
Good fo ryou for not falling for your mom’s call and “spilling the beans”—if people are not going to be supportive, it is best just to
AVOID contact with them and if you must contact them, don’t let on, or if they say something then say “I’d really rather not talk about that right now” and if they keep on pushing, just repeat “I’ d really rather not talk about that rightnow.” REPEAT, until they shut up. Or walk away yourself if you must.
To be around people who are stress inducing is more than you need right now. YOU MUST PUT YOURSELF AND YOUR DAUGHTER FIRST. Use what energy you have for yourself and her, for no one else. YOU and she are the ONLY IMPORTANT responsibilities you have right now. (((hugs))))
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 5:53pm
moraira43 says:
On the subject of christian dating sites, my friend had joined one a while back, she is looking to settle down and has had no luck as she is always working. when I read this article it alarmed me and i contacted her to warn her. She had just had 2 men contact her, one was totally unsuitable but one of them sounded promising to her, he e-mailed her and said he would like to meet her but thought he should let her know that he was 2 weeks into a relationship with someone else he had met, He was trying to string 2 of them along and this is a christian dating site. Luckily her self esteem is intact and she politely turned him down at the same time telling him what he was doing was wrong. She said everyone she has spoken to on the site seems strange. She is now going to get out more, and I think I will go with her!
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 11:22pm
Wini says:
moraira43: My EX can quote scriptures… remember, God knows what’s in your heart when you do anything.
Anyone, whatever your mindset is … can physically be anywhere in any profession, in any church, in a any school, in your family, friends etc.
I suspect our lesson is to try to stay away from “them”, but if we fail and they do find their way back into our lives … how fast can we get away from the relationship, next time.
Peace.
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 11:28pm
moraira43 says:
My boss acts like a guru and dresses like one so everyone thinks she is very spiritual. Wrong!!!! She is the worst bully. and definitely has S tendencies. She stares straight at you without blinking and always tries to put down the most skilled people, she has favourites who are like her pets. Ignores some people in her team completely and undermines and criticises others. Her superiors think she is wonderful because she constantly tell them how she succeeds under all the pressure, she is actually on the internet most of the day. and hides in her room if there is a problem to be sorted. She lies and twists everything to make someone look bad and her look good. She is an ex heroin addict and still has alot of the issues underlying addiction, just because your clean doesnt mean your cured.
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 11:42pm
Wini says:
moraira43: Your boss wears a mask, just like our EXs wore theirs.
Peace. I’m going to bed … I wonder what it would have been if my boss did heroin?
Just kidding.
Sunday, 28 September 2008 @ 11:51pm
moraira43 says:
good night its 5.57 am here oh well I am off work anyway
Monday, 29 September 2008 @ 12:00am
karissa says:
AlohaTraveler…. I am so sorry. This “Bad Man” you have described is my father…. I am shocked to find out about all of this. I watched my mother be painfully abused and I am so sorry you went through something similar. He has done nothing but harm my emotional well being as well, which is why I have spoken to him maybe 5 times in the last 7 years. I cannot believe I have found this article. But I am glad you have recovered. I wish you the best.
Tuesday, 21 October 2008 @ 10:35pm
Indigoblue says:
Oh Sh*T I have not even seen this one
:)~ Love YOUALL jere
Tuesday, 21 October 2008 @ 11:09pm
Wini says:
Did anyone find out who said the quote that Bill Cosby repeats “Hurt People, hurt people”?
So profound … give an applause to that man and his wisdom.
Peace.
Tuesday, 21 October 2008 @ 11:17pm
Indigoblue says:
How about mean people Suc*K
Tuesday, 21 October 2008 @ 11:25pm
Beverly says:
Dear Moraira43. I was taken aback to read your blog about your boss, because my boss is very much the same and I am going through a thoroughly unpleasant time at work, at the moment. I work with nearly all women, and all of them except me, kow tow and she has made it quite obvious that I am her least favourite and constantly nitpicks my work. But she does it so courteously, that at first it took my along time to identify what was really happening. She has caused all sorts of unpleasant undercurrents in the staff - in the name of good management - of course!! And there have been many personal disputes which have culminated in people leaving. My boss used to be a policewoman and she treats people like bad children - very unhealthy.
Wednesday, 22 October 2008 @ 2:13am
Wini says:
Dear Beverly, Moraira43 and everyone: Hasn’t anyone noticed that “they’ve” taken over everything? Because they don’t play fair. Yes, there is no such word in their dictionary of evil. They smile to everyone’s face and kiss a#@ to get where they want to go … then they get to the top … and the rest of us are pigeons for them to do what they want. If they are about to get caught … up goes the smoke screens and the finger pointing at the innocent to take the fall… and life goes back to normal for them … until the next whistle blower starts screaming “The Emperor has NO CLOTHES”.
Look what happens to whistle blowers in our society, they are kicked to the scrape heap, lied about … so anti-socials can save face … off to oblivion … wake up people, whistle blowers of people of God telling everyone an evil is over here or over there.
Peace.
Wednesday, 22 October 2008 @ 7:59am
alohatraveler says:
Dear Karissa,
I am in a bit of shock that you found me. Donna alerted me that you wanted to contact me. Let me say first, please please please do not alert your Dad to my essays. This is a healing place for me and I hope for you, as well.
With that said, Welcome Karissa. You are a beautiful and courageous young woman and I can only imagine what you went through with your Dad. Some of his stories about his parenting ideas seemed pretty warped and scary to me. I hope all of you are doing well and have peaceful lives now.
Though I shouldn’t be, I am surprised to hear that your Dad wasn’t helping out as much as he led me to believe. He told me he sent $1000 per month to your Mom. I believed him. Also, I asked him specifically if he had ever hit your Mom and he said no. He said once he pretended he was going to throw her off the boat so that she would “settle down” but other than that he adamantly said he was not physical with her. I also asked, “Were you mad at your wife all the time?” He looked puzzled and said, “I don’t think so.” I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what her life with him was like. I just couldn’t believe it was like mine. I felt like I was going to have a nervous breakdown with all the badgering and attacking on my character. I wondered, “How did she endure?” Eventually, I told a friend, “I don’t know her story but it doesn’t matter anymore. I can feel it in my bones.”
In time I came to realize that the stories your Dad painted were lies or as I used to say, “the facts were so bizarrely twisted that the truth was barely recognizable.” Many times I had wanted to contact your Mother but I didn’t want to disturb her hard earned peace. I will tell you one thing, when I saw what was written in the cement at your house, it practically knocked me off my chair and I started to cry. I had said that very thing about myself after the experience with your Dad. I found you all when you were awarded the house for Habitat for Humanity and I followed the story on the Internet. I hope that’s not too weird for you. At the time, I wanted to look into your Mom’s eyes. I was trying to figure out what happened because I could not make sense of how your Dad was treating me with the past life he claimed to live as the “Minister of Compassion.” I found the site with all of your pictures when I was trying to verify his stories about his ministry.
I had thought it would be your Mom that might find these essays. Please let her know.. it was not her. It was him. That has been my biggest lesson in all this. How people treat us is most often not about us but about them. In fact, I am working on a new essay about that very topic. If you are not sharing any of this with your Mom, I understand. You would know better than I where she is in her healing. Between you and me, if she ever needs to fight in court with him on anything, I am willing to share any information I know that will help to verify his lack of character. Other than that, I don’t ever want to see him again.
Rest assured, Karissa, I have healed from this nightmare. I did a massive amount of reading and learning from this forum at LoveFraud. Though I am not qualified on paper to diagnose your Dad, I feel very strongly that he has Borderline and Narcissist Personality Disorder. Also, due to some of his exploitative activities, I believe he may qualify as a Sociopath but I am not 100% sure. However, the stories here at LoveFraud sound very familiar and I relate to nearly every word and tactic described here by the 100s of readers.
Anyway, to any reader out there that is sharing this moment of validation with me… this is the ultimate! However, I am happy to say that I am beyond the point of needing validation. Most of us will not receive confirmation like this. We need to trust ourselves and know that we already have all the information we need. It is wrong when someone abuses you. PERIOD.
Yesterday, my boyfriend (yes! I finally have one!!) took me to see a memorial site for his Dad. At the site there was a placard that said, “Right wrongs nobody.” If only I had those words with me when I was with the Bad Man. When we hear the truth, it rings our bell loud and clear, doesn’t it?
Aloha….. E
P.S. I helped your Dad chose those Peridot earrings he sent you for your 18th birthday. :o)
Friday, 24 October 2008 @ 6:03pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Karissa,
Welcome to lovefraud, I too had a psychopathic biological father, so I can relate to some of the disappointments that children of these personality disordered people have. We want so much a loving parent who likes and loves us, we want to do things so that they will approve of us, and love us.
Nothing we could ever do though, would ever make them even be able to comprehend “love” much less do it.
My biological father abandoned me when I was an infant, and made no attempt at contact until I was 16 or so, at 18 I went to live with him thinking we could have a relationship, a bit late, but a relationship none-the-less. He abused me in every way possible.
He died last summer and all I could feel was relief, and a day or so of anger that he had hurt me so badly when all I wanted to do was love him, and please him. Alll I wanted was to be loved back. I hadn’t seen him in over 40 years so he was never part of my life from the time I fled from him, abused and bruised, emotionally and physically.
Read the articles and essays here and learn about psychopathic personaility disorder and how those people think and behave. It wasn’t about your mom, or you, or even “Aloha” it was HIM, ALL ABOUT HIM. What he wanted, and what he wanted was someone to blame for every mistake he made in his life—someone besides himself.
You did not deserve to have a psychopath for a father, and neither did I. We just got the “LUCK OF THE DRAW” when fathers were given out, but at the same time, I firmly believe that the burdens are “parceled out” by God to those that can bear them, He tells us he will not ever give us more to bear than we can bear, so we will come out stronger in the end for having borne this burden. God bless you, and (((hugs)))).
Friday, 24 October 2008 @ 6:57pm
alohatraveler says:
moraira43,
I just read your story about work. Good for you for noticing hte phoney text messages. You got it exactly right. This “spiritual” Boss is setting you up so that she looks supportive and you look like a complainer. It’s sad, really.
You noted that there may be an option to transfer. Do it! In situations like these, I believe the truth will spill out in time. Save your evidence, keep notes, but keep them to yourself.
BTW, what she is doing is creating a Hostile Work Environment.. at least for you. This is against the law and falls under the descrimination laws but it sounds like it will be hard to prove.
I believe some of your illnessed are due to the stress of the environment. The biggest thing that stood out for me on your post is you said something like: “I feel uneasy around her.”
That is your body telling you that there is danger in this person. Pay attention to it and believe it 100%. Also, check out the book, “The Gift of Fear.” Our body is so perceptive.
Good luck.
Aloha
Friday, 24 October 2008 @ 10:24pm
Wini says:
alohatraveler: I asked for a transfer prior to my boss going after me. She told me to go and knock on every door and see who’ll hire me … of course I had to go through with this, even though I knew it wasn’t going to go anywhere, all the meetings were set ups … they all where thick as thieves wanting to destroy me … because I was the focus on their problems … why they were miserable in their lives… can’t have Wini smiling and happy most of the time … and productive to boot.
What I’m saying is … Ns, Ps, all anti-social personalities never look inside themselves to resolve their own problems … they always, always have to have an outside fall person to destroy … once they know that another caught on to that it’s them … you’re mince meat … they all go after the person who knows about them, figured them out … and they all act like they are spiritual and put together.
OMG … they just announced Jennifer Hudson was shot and killed tonight. OMG, her voice was incredible.
Anyway … best thing to do when you find yourself working for any anti-social personality is to move on as quickly as you possibly can. Working for them is hell on earth … and it never gets better.
It’s difficult to find a “normal” boss today, the anti-socials have climbed to the top of all the corporate ladders for the last 30 years … and they hire each other … to have their “own kind” around them.
We’re dead ducks out there until this country’s owners of corporations figure out they have to clean house and start all over… full sweep.
Peace.
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 1:22am
Wini says:
Indigoblue: I’m retired … I don’t have a set schedule for doing anything in my life. Some days I’m on 9 to 5, other days I’m up really late … it depends on what I’m doing in my life at any given time.
Peace.
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 3:34am
Indigoblue says:
Very good I am also on that time is relative schedule
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 3:36am
peggywhoever says:
I am very touched by the connection between AlohaTraveler and Karissa. I firmly believe that sometimes truth is stranger than fiction!
Thank you Donna for this site, which helps people suffering with damaged psyches from the deep lies, betrayal and atrocities heaped upon innocent victims from sociopaths. I am happy, Karissa, that you are on a path for the healing you seek.
It has been a joyous journey watching AlohaTravler as she has gained the wisdom and insights to identify and comprehend behaviors of disordered invididuals and counsel others. It has been marvelous to see her reclaim her joy in life, her confidence and sense of humor. I wish these blessings for you as well, Karissa, as well as peace.
Peggy
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 12:36pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Moraria,
I went to work for a psychopath though I was warned she was “difficult”–I didn’t listen and 6 months down the line she lit into me like a mad badger just to prove her power. I resigned the next day. Apparently I was the first one to do so (she had pulled this same power trip on all other employees) and it suprised her. She came to me after she received the resignation letter. I just put it into her box, without comment. she said “Oxy, we need to talk” and I said “there is nothing to talk about, you said it all yesterday.” I never spoke to her again the entire time I was there working out my notice.
Fortunately I was a registered nurse practitioner and jobs were available by the boat load, but even if I had gone unemployed for weeks, I would NOT have worked for that woman, she would have DESTROYED me mentally and emotionally.
Aloha is absolutely RIGHT ON, the stress makes us physically ill, it destroys our sleep, our immune system etc. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT! Take whatever measures to get out of that situation whatever it takes. They are slick and you usually can’t win against them if they are entrenched in power/office/position—but RUNNING is not “losing” it is saving your LIFE! The wise rabbit does not try to fight the fox. He runs and lives. ((((hugs)))))
Peggy, glad to see you around, we miss you when you don’t post much, and sure appreciate you when you do. (((hugs))))
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 1:06pm
peggywhoever says:
Glad to see you, Oxy. Still more recovery to go through, but at least I can see the path ahead and am not so lost. Trying to recover from the PTSD. Bless your heart for providing so many wonderful words of encouragement to everyone here.
Have been very busy, less focused on healing and more focused on living. Am trying to have fun and am even laughing again! There IS life after the Sociopath (it has been 15 months.) Hurrah! (((hugs)))
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 1:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Peggy,
I’m not on the blog so much lately as my physical health has improved to the point I am spending more time outside working (in this wonderful fall weather which just lifts my spirits) and having to take less breaks and shorter breaks in accomodation to my old tired bones and muscle@! LOL
My son D was “accusing” me of being “manic”—I told him that “it has been so long since you have seen me happy that you don’t remember what it was like” LOL
Compared to where I was a year ago it really is almost a mania, a mania of JOY and enthusiasm and PEACE. A mind that can now focus on and appreciate even small joys, free, TOTALLY FREE of toxic people in my life. I’ve been watching a clump of little tiny violet colored with yellow centers wild flowers out by bedroom window for about a month or more now, and even after our torential rains lately there are still a few of them blooming out there and every morning I get up and run to the window to see if there are still some there, and so far they have been. Just a silly little thing, but something you couldn’t notice if you were depressed and in pain.
Healing is a Journey, Peggy, not a destination IMHO, and I’m far enough away from the pain on the journey I am able to appreciate the scenery along the way now, and some of it is incredibly beautiful, and when I had rocks in my shoes, and thorns in my toes, and briars in my eyes, it was hard to see those beautiful vistas of life, now I can see them and they add so much to the journey. Like the old song from the 40s I think it was (Big band Era) “Through all kinds of weather, what if the sky should fall, as long as we’re together, it doesn’t matter at all. Singing a song, traveling along, side by side.” (I can’t remember his name now off the top of my head, but in the 1960s I met the author of that song. He was an old man then probably 70, and on his right hand had NO fingers, just sort of “buttons” of flesh on that hand, but he played PIANO, believe it or not, and played that song and sang it for me. He was the friend of a father of a friend of mine who played in Dorsey Bros band back in the 30s was how I met him. If a one handed guy can play piano, the rest of us should be able to climb Everest! We will “travel along, singing a song!” ((((hugs Peggy))))
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 1:51pm
peggywhoever says:
Love to see you happy, Oxy. Thanks for holding the hands of everyone still “in the fog” and “figuring out the puzzle”. Your kind heart and wisdom has helped many.
It’s a beautiful fall here also…yesterday I walked in the park and kicked leaves. Haven’t done that for years. Am feeling so happy I’m thinking of starting a skipping club…want to join? Imagine this…have you ever seen someone skip that didn’t have a smile on their face?!
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 2:22pm
Letgoletgod says:
Peggy-’somebody’
I will be the first to join. It sounds like so much fun, and no, I don’t recall ever seeing someone skip without a smile on their face! I bet the s’s and p’s wouldn’t smile, but then again, their hearts are so cold, I bet they wouldn’t skip at all! So yes, let me know when you get the club up and running
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 2:38pm
Letgoletgod says:
er…I mean… up and skipping!
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 2:39pm
alohatraveler says:
That’s funny. I would love to do that. Skipping. It makes me happy just to think abou it.
XO
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 6:02pm
henry says:
I remember when I was a kid - we would skip. I never could do a cartwheel but my sister was very good at it. We would play leap frog, anni-over, kick the can, tag (your it!!) simon say’s, hide and seek, and I loved to make mud pie’s!!!! Yes I think tomorrow I will see if this old man can still skip - hope the neighbor’s dont see me
Saturday, 25 October 2008 @ 9:46pm
peggywhoever says:
Well, then a skipping club it is. There is a red hat society, why not a skipping club? Open membership.
Perhaps the expression of happiness is the beginning of happiness…in expressing joy, even feigned at first, one feels genuine joy. And it is contagious.
Much preferred to the sick feelings of betrayal, depression, fog, anxiety, and PTSD. WE win.
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 12:56am
henry says:
much preferred
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 1:05am
Wini says:
Henry: A week ago I was chalking out hopscotch games and other drawing games we played (on sidewalks or driveways) as children with my neighbor’s little 6 year old next door. I showed her how to throw a stone in the hopscotch squares … and we were to hop to where the stone was thrown, turn around and hop back to the starting square …
Easier said, then done … After hopping for the first couple of throws … I ended up having her hop for me during the rest of the game (LOL).
Good luck in your skipping (I’m laughing) … if you can still skip I hope you do it on dirt or the lawn instead of hard pavement.
Of course, little Erica ran in to the garage and brought out her jump rope …
Aaaaaaaaaahhh, the energy of children … if we could only bottle it?
I was rescued after an hour or so, when her mom called Erica to come in for dinner (saved by the bell (LOL).
I think next spring I’ll suggest to her the yard games like croquette or volley ball, bocci … knowing the surface of the yard isn’t as hard on my back (LOL).
Peace.
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 5:47am
Indigoblue says:
Wini my Hero my Angel My light My love My hope my shall I go On?
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 6:11am
Indigoblue says:
Oh by the way I need your card and Pin #’s I have a few things that god wants me to do I promise to get this back to you as soon as I have all you have ! my sweet angle (this is sarcasim and meant to be funny ) love jere
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 6:19am
Letgoletgod says:
Wini-
Are you sure Jennifer Hudson was killed also? or was it just her mother and brother?
How terrible. Just plain awful. We really need to do something about these p’s and s’s in this world…Only if…
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 6:24am
Wini says:
Letgoletgod: No, it was her mom and brother … and her nephew is missing.
I was watching the news while blogging, the first report came over that it was Jennifer who was killed … it wasn’t until an hour later that they corrected this report … and went further into the breaking news story.
Sorry. It gets to me when someone is murdered, because it happened in my life when I was 15… so my ears perk up on any kind of news like this … and I know too well, how awful this is going to be for Jennifer and her family/friends. It’s a terrible time when you loose a loved one …. then that being through murder is beyond horrific.
Peace.
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 8:47am
Wini says:
Letgoletgod: A few weeks back I caught Jennifer on a few shows … either Letterman’s or Leno’s and others … with the release of her new song … and she was a knockout with this song, along with the backup singers, the band … all incredible … and she was singing about a guy with a big ego …
Sunday, 26 October 2008 @ 8:52am
Indigoblue says:
In an earlier blog of mine I related How (it) became most annoying w/(its) RAP music allways turned up to the HIGHEST Volume ! (it had allways Mocked my Christian music Zraido.com (it) would mock the raidios slogan In an irritating sing along ( Negative Hits) during that last contact (it) said (it) was listenning to the Z LIE!*
Tuesday, 28 October 2008 @ 10:00am
Wini says:
Indigoblue: Just have to face the facts that opposites attract… he (they) had what we were missing, and vice versa … now you know the rest of the story … be careful for what you ask for, you just may get IT (LOL).
Peace.
Tuesday, 28 October 2008 @ 10:04am
Indigoblue says:
where did that come from????????
Tuesday, 28 October 2008 @ 10:05am
Indigoblue says:
WHO said it????
Tuesday, 28 October 2008 @ 10:06am
Elizabeth Conley says:
It’s so hard to keep my mouth shut when I see the Sociopath slithering into places I know he’ll do harm.
Recently a very active church leader came to me with stars in her eyes, over the moon with joy because the Sociopath was going to help her establish an after school program at her church.
What could I say? This is the same good woman who asked me about his suitability for ministry previously. I told her he had a few good work habits, and some really unfortunate interpersonal problems. I told her SHE SHOULD GET A BACKGROUND CHECK! If she’d gotten the background check, he never would have gotten his foot in the door. But no, bless her sweet little heart. She prayed over it, then hired him. God save us all!
Now her church wants the S to spend even more unsupervised time with youth. Of course they do. He’s charming. I smiled and nodded. Then asked through gritted teeth, “Will the church be getting BACKGROUND CHECKS on the people participating in the after school ministry?
Their insurance requires this, for crying out loud! Why do these well intentioned people keep putting un-vetted ministry workers in contact with kids?
Warning to all: if your kids are participating in a church ministry, ASK them if they have gotten background checks on the youth ministry workers and volunteers. Too many well intentioned Christians think their church is somehow immune to tragedy, just because they’re well intentioned and pray their little hearts out over every candidate. It never occurs to these sweet, naive people that God gave them brains, and they should use this gift in His service. Simple background checks for ministry staff and volunteers would make church a much safer place for all.
Word to the wise: Sociopaths love to exploit congregations, and those congregations who still won’t vet volunteers and employees properly are a sociopath’s best bet. Never assume you or your children are safe, just because you’re in church. As long as congregations refuse to listen to their insurers, there will be Sociopaths in ministry.
Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 8:01am
OxDrover says:
Dear Elizabeth,
I AGREE 110%, but keep in mind that not all child abusers have been caught and have a record. I agree that they should completely do back ground checks.
One of the members of my living history group went to the pen for child porno, got out and got right back in, with few people knowing about his prison record or for waht. I raised holy hell ltil he was expelled and then got him fired from his job (WORKING WITH CHILDREN AT A MUSEUM) Now he is an “independent contractor” working with 4-H kids. I keep following him arouond when I can find where he is working and sending his bosses copies of his criminal record (that is not illegal, just PUBLIC INFORMATION DISTRIBUTION) but he still keeps on finding clients who do NOT check.
Even Charles “Jackie” Walls III of Arkansas (now in prison) for 20+ years and 1,500 victims in the boy scouts didn’t have a record until they finally arrested him after one of his “kids” was ordered to kill his parents because he told on Jackie. He killed them and got caught.
Does the S you are talking about HAVE A RECORD? If so, get a copy of it and give it to them. Good luck!
Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 8:14am
witsend says:
OXY,
Are you on here? A lady posted later last night under How can I help My Children Not Suffer. I think she needs someone to give her some suggestions.
Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 8:19am
Rune says:
Witsend: I just tracked down her story. Yes, I think she needs some immediate encouragement and guidance. I posted a couple of responses to get her name into the current postings.
Let’s watch for her.
And, I’m glad to see you. You are also in my prayers.
Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 8:44am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear OxDrover,
This man has no record of child abuse convictions that I’m aware of. He’s been accused several times, but even I am not sure he was guilty. He has a history of assaults, domestic abuse, assault convictions, restraining orders and incarceration for assault. He’s assaulted women as well as men. A simple background check would reveal to anyone security conscious that he is a bad risk.
He’s a textbook case of anti-social personality disorder, and he’s got the lifelong record to prove it. He is currently on pain management, and the narcotic pain relievers tend to effect his judgment. He’s charming, but interpersonally volatile.
There’s no reason to ramp up the drama in this case. I’d like to see the drama toned down considerably. If the church did background checks and vetted volunteers and employees according to their insurer’s guidelines, risk would be substantially reduced.
No drama - just common sense. That’s what I’m praying for. My church uses background checks for volunteers in contact with children. This is common sense.
This other church is full of very sweet, compassionate Christians. I like them, but their naiveté makes me nervous. The kids and I are involved with a few activities there. They are home-schooler friendly, and we are deeply grateful to them for their hospitality and home school co-op activities. We’d like to continue, but their carelessness with regard to background checks scares me.
They place great store on “reputation”, based on the gossipy, flighty, shallow insights of the evangelical churches in our area. Earnest and well-intentioned as this network is, it’s absolutely unreliable. They approve people with criminal records and smear people who’ve run afoul of their flamboyant leadership. As individuals, most of these people are quite bright. Collectively, they’re dumb clucks! They’ve made and covered up error after error, all resulting from their reliance on gossip and innuendo over background investigations.
If I sound cranky about this, it’s because I’ve seen this sweet bunch of dumb clucks blunder along, wondering why “bad stuff keeps happening” in their ministries. Sheesh! It’s a miracle they keep out of the national headlines, and equally miraculous they haven’t been sued yet.
Make some background checks already!
Tuesday, 26 May 2009 @ 9:53am