Lovefraud Blog » Blog Archive » Sociopaths pretending to be religious

Sociopaths pretending to be religious

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 5:28am • My Weblog

Sociopaths like to cloak themselves in a mantel of respect. They seek careers, or pretend to have careers, in fields that people associate with good character, trustworthiness, and authority, such as law enforcement, the military and the clergy.

Pursuing a career in religion or spirituality is particularly useful for sociopaths. People tend to trust religious figures simply because they are religious figures, which puts a sociopath several moves ahead when trying to scam someone. A sociopath claiming an inside track to God has a very powerful tool when it comes to manipulating people.

Plus, for a sociopath, a career in the clergy is easy—the primarily visible job requirement is an ability to talk. With typical inborn charisma, and a willingness to lie about other credentials, the sociopath is a shoo-in.

Lovefraud has written about several pseudo-members of the clergy whose behavior has certainly flouted the Ten Commandments:

Anthony Owens claimed to be bishop of a fellowship of more than 100 non-denominational churches, which was a lie. He was married to eight women at the same time.

Rabbi Fred Neulander founded the largest Jewish temple in southern New Jersey. He was convicted of arranging the murder of his wife.

Terry Hornbuckle founded a megachurch in Arlington, Texas. He was found guilty of raping three women, two of whom were parishioners.

Then, of course, there’s Fred Brito, who impersonated a Catholic priest, even performing a couple’s wedding, when he had no religious training whatsoever.

Lovefraud readers have told us of more cases. AlohaTraveler says her “Bad Man” had been a pastor for an Assemblies of God church in Seattle. Another woman has built a website about the real reason a reverend abruptly departed from the First Presbyterian Church of Fort Lauderdale, Florida—an extramarital affair with her.

Fake believers

Even sociopaths who aren’t clergy put religion to work in their manipulation. Here are some examples from the Lovefraud mailbag:

A woman married a guy who was a “Christian” teacher (her quotes) in schools for 14 years. He abandoned her after six months and started an affair with another woman, all the while talking about reconciliation. She then found out she was his eighth or ninth wife, and he had previously been convicted of bigamy.
A guy met a woman in a Christian chat room on the Internet. He was in the process of getting a divorce; she claimed she was also. He left everything and moved to her state to be with her. She taught at a Christian school half-days, and would meet him—for sex—after work. She was still married.
Girl starts dating guy when she is 18. They belonged to the same Christian faith, which did not allow premarital sex; all their dates were chaperoned. When she was 20, they had a fairytale wedding. That night, he raped her, then started gaslighting her, and convinced a doctor that she was crazy, until she ended up on psychotropic drugs.
A woman’s ex-husband claims to be a Christian minister. “The church is a fraud to bilk people out of money. He helps the other pastor get money from poor people who can’t afford it,” she writes. “When he raped me and tried to kill me, and when he and his daughter broke into my house, well the cops saw him wearing preacher pants and didn’t believe me.”
Woman meets a guy on a Christian singles site—they both sang, did music ministry, and had an “intense desire to serve the Lord.” They married, started their own church, then she finds out he owed $30,000 in child support and was addicted to hardcore porn. He became physically abusive.
Woman marries a 51-year-old Catholic school teacher who is an Episcopalian priest, retired military, widowed after 29 years of marriage. Two months into the marriage, his son moves in with them. The son was selling and using cocaine, and her new husband—the priest—was in business with him.

Predators are everywhere

Lovefraud has heard of many more cases in which sociopathic predators were fishing for victims in churches and on religious dating websites. We’ve heard of sociopaths who quoted the Bible, prayed every day, and emotionally tortured their families.

And then there are the sociopaths who use religion as a reason to keep bleeding their victims. Christian religions, and New Age spiritualism, embrace the concept of forgiveness. Sociopaths use this to claim that they’ve “found God” who has forgiven their transgressions, and you should too.

The key point here is that just because someone claims to be Christian, religious, or otherwise spiritual, does not mean he or she is automatically trustworthy. If your instincts are telling you that something is wrong, no matter what the context, pay attention.

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written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •

holywatersalt says:

AMEN!

I came to meet and learn about psychopaths through Church. It is disheartening and I hate to think others willbe turned off by religion b/cof psychopaths, but they are in the sanctuary.

I know of them and have experienced their predation myself.
Here’s a key to catching them…their actions do not match their words. The ones I have known- pour on the piety all the while chasing pre-teen parishoners, wives and actining out all sorts of profanity. For me, in retrospect, it started with the outrageous conversations, really monologues, in Church. Another told me straight out “how bad his marriage was” ….all the while he was cheating with others in and out of Church.

Here’s a clue: married men DO NOT pursue personal conversations with women other than their WIVES- esp. shocking is the obvious loitering around young girls…

The stories I could tell…claims of abject poverty whilst brining in income of over 150,000…One good that has come from my experience with psychos in Church…I know there is only one God I can turn to. I believe that is key, palcing all our trust and hope in a person is a disaster waiting to happen. Even trusting a a bit , a psycho leads to pain and suffering…

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 10:10am

gillian says:

This is just another one of those incomprehensible things about these creatures. How they can speak such loving words, say such inspiring-sounding things and yet just be doing that to garner trust so they can get away with the most despicable things.

In my personal journey I have gone through so many phases. From shock and disbelief to denial, bargaining, hope, despair, suicidal ideation, curiosity, fascination, learning, confusion, more shock, acceptance, pain, endless yammering–I feel like I’ve bounced around like a ping pong ball. Ultimately, however, I am coming to the place Liane, I think it was, spoke of: disgust with the sociopath. I am getting to a place where more and more I feel nothing but revulsion toward a man I once loved with all my heart. A man I utterly believed in and trusted.

The more I am able to get my head around what “my” S has done and what he continues to do and always will do, the more I am filled with this disgust.

And disgust particularly heightened when I think back and remember how he was a deacon in our church. How he helped with communion. How he washed other people’s feet (Adventist). How he got up in front of the entire congregation and sang “How Great Thou Art.”

How he would request prayer and pray aloud, such a good out-loud prayer, my own are awkward and clumsy, he always knew the best words, gave me tingles.

And he would do all this all the while he was living an ugly double life, betraying every sacred vow, violating every rule and standard of what he professed to believe in.

And even now, now that he’s been caught, he is no longer going to church, but is attending AA, which–although he is there talking about God, telling people how he is spending hours down on his knees and how his higher power is doing for him what he could not do for himself–he is actually using as his personal trout farm. He is going to meetings all over southern California so that this woman won’t know about that one and that one won’t know about this.

For him, AA is just another group of people to con, another bunch of people to stroke his ego. Another source of women to seduce and conquer.

I am the biggest thorn in his side. He is my worst nightmare, but I am his worst nightmare too. He so wants to convince me that he is a changed man, not just so that I won’t expose him to his new honey (who he is now living with although he is still carrying on with the woman he’s been having a 5 year affair with and who he planned to leave me for–under false pretenses–last year and is “seeing” many other women as well: women he works with, women he’s met in AA; and how I know all this is because via the internet I can see all the calls he makes on his cell phone), but so he can convince his family, particularly his parents, who now know the complete ugly truth about him, that while he is very very sorry for what he has done, he’s undergone this miraculous transformation. He’s had a “white light experience” as he told me two months ago.

And he gets away with this–not with me or my family and friends anymore, but with all his new “friends” and the people he works with because he sounds so sincere. He has such a buttery voice. Chocolate eyes. A warm touch.

Yesterday I had a long discussion with my sister-in-aw and she said and could not be convinced otherwise that even though she can believe that the S doesn’t care about me or most anyone else she just cannot believe that anyone could not really care about their own daughter, could not love their own flesh and blood, their own child they held and comforted and kissed and played games with. That seems impossible to her. And I do understand. It took me a long time to realize that my S truly did not and does not care about his own daughter. Even though I had read that this is so in a book, Martha Stout’s I think, where she says sociopaths use their children as props to help them pass for normal I could not quite believe this about my S. He was every other thing, but not this. It wasn’t until I inadvertently discovered that the brakes on my car (in which my daughter was often a passenger) were shot and that my S knew this and said nothing that I got it. I finally, finally got it. And by “get” I don’t mean I understand, only that I know this is so.

And I felt such frustration talking to my SIL yesterday because, like I used to and still have the inclination to, she insisted on applying normal-people rules to the S. But you cannot apply normal-people rules to the sociopath. I don’t know how many times I have asked: “How can he do this?” “How can anyone do this?” “How can anyone treat another human being like that?” “How can anyone lie so completely and utterly, say they’ll call you again, “just before [they] go night-night” all the while they are staring at one of the women they are having an affair with who is sitting in her silver car parked down the street?” (A very long story.)

But there’s never an answer. Not a satisfactory one anyway. The closest I can ever come to that is: “Because he’s a sociopath.”

I doubt there will every be any more complete answer than that because who could ever ask a sociopath a question and know they’ll get a truthful answer? They can’t; they never will; everything the S says is completely self-serving and manipulative. Even when they sound remorseful or sincere or earnest or desirous of change there’s no point in asking them anything because everything they say is a lie. Even when it is the truth it is a lie. And, to me, that is the most confounding thing of all.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:26am

Wini says:

Dear gillian: I read your post. I’m glad to read that you are healing from all the pain he caused in your life. Yes, they are very cleaver. Yes, they are in the churches, work offices, fields, your favorite shopping mall, etc. What we are all learning is they say and do whatever they please. That is just another … out there that lives in their EGO instead of being humble.

Peace to your heart and soul. You got through the worst part of this … acknowledging and accepting what is. Be kind to yourself as you heal. Pray to God to guide you towards forgiveness. Pray to God in good times and Bad. He loves to hear from us every day, any time, any place we are.

I just remember this: Oprah says she writes down on a piece of paper every night before she goes to bed every thing she is grateful for from the day.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:44am

swallow says:

The P I was involved with was a ‘good’ muslim. He professed to pray 5 times a day and never drank alchohol. This myth was portrayed not just by himself but the OW and they fooled many people. What I did not know at the time was that he slept around with anything that moved and sold drugs.
Not being a religeous person myself and not familiar with Shariah law I didn’t realise just how ridiculous his behaviour was - he was having an affair with a married woman (me). When I did eventually question him about it, he covered it up by saying it was his “destiny” to fall in love with me even though it was against his religeon. In the honeymoon phase, that was very believable and of course, if I had known about the OW (also married), I would have smelt a rat much sooner.
As so many have said - if I had not been blinded by his flattery and charm and looked at his actions, I may not have been sucked into the whirlpool.
Swallow

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 4:05pm

Glinda says:

The xs didn’t use religion much on me- it wasn’t a very good tool of manipulation with me.

After I threw him out and he was living at his mother’s Christian bookstore, he was telling people, of course, that HE owned it and she worked for him. He was also touting himself as a Christian as a come on on singles sites. He was signing emails “Your Friend in Christ, xxxx”

Maybe he did find religion- witnesses say they saw him snorting coke off bible pages.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 7:19pm

Lib says:

I have known may N/S/P through church/religion. I worked for Catholic Charaties and reported to a priest, who I thought at the time was a clasisc N. He may have been more than that. He did create a wonderful umbrella of services and would turn on the Irish charm when he needed to, sipped Johnnie Walker Red from his tea cup, then scream, and cuss at those that worked for him for the tiniest of issues. He took items for himself that were given to the agencies for the poor, even dog food for homeless dogs so that he could feed all of his large dogs.

An elder in the church I attend now, murdered his wife years ago and now in their 60’s lives with and controls his very passive sister.

An ex- co-worker married her “prophet” husband after knowing him two weeks, has a web-site, tapes and books on what God reveals to him, counsels people about relationships while he moved her from her family and is abusive. He also had a door to door cable scam stealing money from refugees.

“My” S. was in the airforce (kicked out), has always wanted to be a police officer (has an application in hand today), facilitates men’s recovery groups, and speaks to women’s groups about his higher power (gets more than his EGO stroked this way.)

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 7:26pm

Yuk! This really makes me sick as I re-read it. I just wish I could keep this disgust fresh 24/7 and I might be able to have NC.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 7:31pm

JaneSmith says:

That’s what LoveFraud is for, Lib. We write down our innermost thoughts, feelings in an effort to purge ourselves of the extensive damage caused by PDIs.

I have reread many of my original comments hoping that maybe I’ve come further along in my healing/recovery and just maybe I’m liberated from the past hurt. I realize I am so much better emotionally and spiritually than I was 2 months ago.

I no longer ruminate, ponder, drudge up memories of not only the X Music Man, but the other 4 PDI bfs I’ve been involved with in the past 15 years. My latest X wasn’t the worse of the bunch (he never hit me or called me foul names) but he is what I consider the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back.

He was the mentally ill guy who literally caused me to confront my terrible choices in men. Why did I continue to be involved with bad dudes? What was wrong with me that I seriously thought I didn’t deserve any better than the itty bitty crumbs they sparingly scattered my way?

Well, my introduction to LF cleared up massive flaws in my stubborn thinking and actions. Yes, I do take responsibility for allowing PDIs in my life but No, I did not deserve the harsh, cruel treatment that was inflicted upon me.

And wanting to stay on topic of the post, my X Music Man knew that I was a spiritual Christian and that I also incorporated Buddhist religion/philosophy in my daily life. He knew that I was striving to be more disciplined in walking the “path of mindfulness” He knew that I was working on trying to transmute my negative emotions into much more productive, beneficial ones and he exploited my beliefs and ideas constantly. He actually started quoting my statements as if they were his own! It causes me to laugh now, but then I considered it flat out robbery!

One day, he went off on a tangent, crazy making, and I tried to understand what great infraction I had done to create such disharmony in him. Well, to make a stupid long story short, he left and it was me who ended up calling him and apologizing for the words I had said to him in self defense. I asked him to forgive me and then I said to him…God bless you. He responded by saying…”I forgive you as does God”

Now, how in the universe does he know what, why, when, where, how the Lord does what he does? I sure don’t, so how could he? His arrogance was just too darn much for me and that “tone” he would use when he was thinking he was superior to me was annoying.

I really loved the guy, though I don’t any more. But at least I can say I am able to love.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 9:16pm

bird says:

Tell me about it! I met my ex sociopath on an online religious site. When he left me, he left all of his religious books behind with me. Last I heard, he has now converted to another religion, the religion of his current love interest. When he left me he said he was no longer going to try to be the man he thought he was. So, I guess now he is trying to be the “new man” with the “new religion” for the “new women”. It is like the man doesn’t exist. He is mimicking whatever his current love interest is into. It is not like the two religions are at all similar either. They are night and day. What a fraud.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 9:24pm

My Ex attended service with me as well as other events held in churches. Now that we know what we are dealing with (the spiritually stunted/challenged for the political correct folks out there) such a shame that he (or any of them) couldn’t feel those great feelings while attending special occasions with family and friends … always going through the motions. Sad, sad, sad. Besides stealing $$thousands$$ of dollars worth of my possessions when he left, top on the list of stolen items is my Bible. When I did talk with him (a few times after he left and pretending that I still didn’t know about him) I told him that I bought the Bible in memory of my father (that it had special meaning to me). Of course he denied, denied, denied … and then I told him I hope you read it.

Peace.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:45pm

Oh, before I forget … my bosses and their cronies all profess to attend regular service on Sundays. I found it strange that one of the “rat pack” passed over this winter. As I read the obit on-line, all the spiritually stunted blogged onto the newspaper site and what they wrote, quoting scriptures and how much they were going to miss this dear friend and co-worker … I just prayed to myself. It just proves to me more and more that Tolle is on to something regarding the EGOs of the world and how living in one’s ego does not allow people to be humble. It’s when we are humble is when we can feel our emotions, hear the word of God, be kind and love our fellow wo/man, and live a righteous life.

Monday, 21 July 2008 @ 11:53pm

takingmeback says:

This post is part of what upsets me the most about S/N/Ps. It’s not OK that they exploit others and abuse in any fashion via any venue but I get so upset about how many are present in our churchs, mosques, synogogues, you name it. How they use God and religion to build their fake reputations, to gain their audiences and to prey on decent people. It makes me realize that there is no true safe place out there where the S/N/Ps don’t lurk.

I’ve said in other posts, I believe if they are to change it would be God’s doing and their acknowledgment that they themselves are not gods. But like you said gillian, you can’t trust a thing they say! I have prayed for the S who said he didn’t believe in God and who raged at the very mention of the word “faith”. BUT I have simultaneously prayed that he never contact me again. I was afraid when I found out he was reading a Christian book on relationships that he was doing his homework and preparing to come back to me with some sparkling new revelations. I believe in miracles and that God can do all things. But if my ex showed up at my door tomorrow saying he’s found God I would say, “Great. Good luck on your journey in life. Now please go away.” Then I would promptly close the door and lock it! OK, that’s not entirely true. If he showed up on my doorstep tomorrow I wouldn’t open the door at all. But you get the gist of how I feel :).

As for those people in my life who’ve suggested that I go to church to meet a nice, decent man….I shudder. I met one of my ex’s at church and he’s the only b/f who was ever physically abusive towards me. Not that I want to generalize that to all men in church. But just because someone goes to church doesn’t mean they’re safe people. Men and women alike.

bird, I have also had people suggest I go to an online dating site for Christian singles to meet men. Your experience speaks for itself. I am sorry that you and everyone else who posted here has experienced abuse at the hands of men claiming to be spiritual and moral. It makes me want to scream that anyone uses religion or spirituality to “appear” decent or “normal” even. But with the S/N/Ps nothing’s sacred or off limits.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 2:04am

Benzthere says:

It is a good con and it worked on me. How could you mistrust someone who was in a church hierarchy and had committed so much scripture to memory. And by the time you realize the behavior starts not matching the words, who better to bestow grace and forgiveness on than someone who knows God and surely must be just going through a period of drought needing extra support. No, nothing is sacred.

But in the process my long time religion instead became a spiritual relationship, I saw God’s hand in my life, and I came to realize that battle was God’s and not mine. I’ve had to deal with him because of legal matters and retaliation, but was given strength. I think it’s all about growth and it doesn’t come without pain or within the timeframe we may want. All I can do is pray for him, but I believe if we seek we will find.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 5:00am

EyeoftheStorm says:

Donna,

I am so glad to see a post about this subject! Years ago, I read an article about spiritual narcissism and found it so helpful. I think it is such an important topic, not only because of what goes on in organized religion, but also because of the prevalence of New Age spiritualism with its aura of highly camouflaged con artistry. Many troubled and questionable individuals hide in religion/new age spiritualism because sincere seekers are socialized to overlook that possibility! Spiritual narcissists/sociopaths are among the most highly skilled masters of deceit.

Your “key point” sums it up beautifully. An over the top spiritual display is on my list of red flags!

I won’t even get started on “forgiveness”…………!!!!!

Excellent topic!

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 7:05am

nottakingitanymore says:

My S got up on the witness stand and pretended to be pious and holy and a regular church attender. The judge believed him. All lies. He would attend only on special occasions.

He had repeatedly made disparaging comments about my faith, and the people at my church. He also made many remarks about how religion was a useful tool to keep other people (the gullible fools, in his opinion) from doing things that he didn’t like.

He had his own set of rules to live by. He basically had the attitude that he wanted to “look” like a moral person, but whenever morality was inconvenient to him, he would find some exception about why he should be exempt from the rules.

When his son worked at a movie theater, he invited me to go to a movie there with him. When his son snuck us in without paying, I was flabbergasted and too stunned to speak. I didn’t say anything at first because I didn’t know what to say and I didn’t want to hurt his or his son’s feelings. When I finally did say something, it was very mild. I tried to say that it made me uncomfortable to sneak in without paying. He made me feel like I was some sort of uptight sanctimonious judgemental jerk and that I was supposed to lighten up and relax, get a sense of humor and some perspective. (I have a GREAT sense of humor, thank you. It just doesn’t include stealing.)

If you feel sneaky, you’re doing something wrong. I knew that ever since I was a kid. What I learned was that if someone makes you feel sneaky and guilty, especially if they appear to have no guilt at all, they are not a good match for you.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 9:57am

Tood says:

Hello everyone. New here, first post. This topic resonates with me, because I fell victim to a false new age guru-type, and then was ’stolen away’ by his second-in-command.

Mr. Second asked me what I wanted, and when I said I wanted ‘a normal life,’ he dropped the new age facade and became Ward Cleaver, All-American husband and dad. I fell for it…for 15 long years.

And once he had used me and my family up, he moved on to his next victim and again donned the new age personna. Whatever works. As long as it is a lie, whatever works is what they do.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 10:21am

Lykastia says:

Haven’t been here in a while, but I when I saw the title of this blog entry, I just knew I had to say something. My ex-P used to tell me he was a good little Christian. I fell for it. I told myself that if he believed in God (AND had a dog), then he couldn’t be bad. Worst thing is, I don’t believe in God and with all due respect to everyone here who does, for the longest time, I’ve had a lot of doubts about all and everything related to the church. I still do. Fact is, I was blinded by his sweet words when I should’ve ran the other way. Nowadays, everyone who tries to soothe me with anything related to religion gets a piece of my mind and has no chance whatsoever to get involved with me.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 10:30am

I blog on religion and narcissism.
http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com

and I vascillate on whether Psychos have any belief, and then I think they do believe in God,as the Devilobviously does, but they have no Faith.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 12:04pm

whoamI says:

My sociopath claimed to have gone to a Christian college… he couldnt prove it because he said ‘the college burned and all his records were lost’… he also claimed to have sang in a world famous Christian rock band…tours and everything..

His dad is a sociopath too and runs a missionary group…although he does some good, he is a sick abusive nut case. Who claims to have a heart problems and cancer.. whatever gets him attention.

Why do these people get away with this?

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 12:36pm

alohatraveler says:

Donna and all,

I would like to add this link that someone sent me about a year ago.

It’s a synopsis of a book entitled: Chiristian Men Who Hate Women; Healing Hurting Relationships
by Margaret J. Rinck

http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/xtian2.html

I am sure many of us will recognize the behaviors described as Narcissism but with a religious spin. I think this is what happened to the Bad Man’s ex-wife. Bad Man was quite a Bible Banger at one point and he had the weather old Bible to prove it. Also had pictures of himself showing that he did infact have a ministry at one time in the islands… Tonga, Samoa, blah blah.

By the time I met him, he was giving up one form of extremism for another and was looking a bit more new age. He was shifting toward a sexual extremism… calling himself (at times) Erotic Sexual Healer.

Puh-lease!!!!

Anyway, for anyone that was married to a guy that was a Minister or a Church Elder or some other dude that was playing God over you, I think this article will help.

Also, the kind of behavior described in this article has nothing but NOTHING to do with God. It saddens me that people are tortured in this way all under the guise of Man being the spiritual leader of the home. This is very twisted and sad.

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 3:52pm

EyeOfTheStorm,

I wonder if the above article is the one you saw. Your post made me think of it.

Who was it that said it’s a red flag when someone is too showy about their “spirituality.” (I can’t find it and I just read it!) I totally agree. If someone is so very spiritual, show me, don’t tell me.

These days, any kind of extremism turns me off.

Well, have an excellent day everyone!

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 4:01pm

lesley says:

One of the worst men I ever went out with–but, luckily never got seriously involved with–was an ex Episcopal minister. Handsome as a movie star, some mysterious but well paid position in publishing, learn-ed about Carl Jung. He had these terrible stories about how his heartless ex wife had come to him between the first and second Christmas Eve services to say she was leaving him. I can’t remember now why he said he’d left the church, maybe it was he was looking to grow, or something like that. Anyway, his stories got wilder–he belonged to a secret organization that would rise up and unite England and America to fight in the event of war, his father had been a diplomat in South America and he’d grown up with bullets whizzing by his head. I live in New York, where you do meet people like this, so for a while, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then one night I invited him to a black tie thing I was involved in–AND HE STOLE SOME AUCTION ITEMS. I ditched him on the spot, went home and googled him. The movie star looks part was true, the publishing job was too, and so was the fact he’d been an Episcopal minister. But the rest of what I found out was a doozy! One story came up that was titled, “Ten Episcopal Churches Go Under,” and lo and behold, there was his former church and him featured midway down: the man, it turned out, had run off with the choir director, leaving his wife and three kids, and the congregation was so disgusted, they all stopped going to church. The church had gone bankrupt because of this. (And it was the church where I’d been confirmed, by the way, weirdly. He ruined my church!) His father was some broken down looking Pentecostal minister in Florida. A few years later I googled the man again, and up popped a story about this “minister” who’d rushed down to dispense aid and spiritual solace to the distraught around Ground Zero on 9/11. Mr. Maniac himself. I have to say, he was one of the dumber sociopaths I’ve come across, because he was so easily spotted as a fake. Wonder what became of him…

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 4:51pm

mjc1955 says:

My ex-husband had a very bad cocaine problem 20 years ago. At the time, I thought if he could just get sober, our lives would be o.k. Well, he did get sober and has been for 19 years but continued to ruin mine and my children’s lives through his lying and manipulation. I now know that he is a sociopath. But the frustrating thing is hearing that he is now working at a recovery center in Laguna Beach, Ca., as a “drug counseler”. He has everybody there fooled into believing that he has been “sober” for 19 years and that he is this wonderful example of what living a “clean” life can be. He fails to mention that he has lost his wife, children, job and home since he has been “sober”. We can’t warn these people at the recovery center—–we can only sit back and watch and hope that they figure out his scam before they lose everything————-

Tuesday, 22 July 2008 @ 8:51pm

kat_o_nine_tales says:

You know, this site is a godsend for me and such a reality check. The more I read the posts, the less alone I feel. Thank God I haven’t met any sociopaths who have succeeded in church. Well.. none that I know of anyhow. My two ex-husbands both left the church and didn’t try to use it as a springboard. Too much accountability I think.

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 5:03am

tami says:

Yes! My ex husband claimed to be very spiritual and reference God and forgiveness regularly. We didn’t attend church regularly but he always went if I asked him to. He was a total pot head in a rock band and was sleeping with every woman he pretty much encountered. Yet, when we would attend church (southern Baptist), he’d “Amen” the preacher and suddenly appear to be a regular church member! I was appauled at his behavior! When he announced that he was leaving me, I fell apart because I knew nothing of his bad boy behavior at the time–he was so GOOD at hiding his “other side”. I asked him to pray with me and he actually did! All the time, knowing that he was leaving me for another woman and that he had had more affairs than one could count during our marriage. People, someone like that has to be evil and they can’t possibly believe in anything other than themselves!

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 5:38am

TrishNJ says:

The criminal I fell for went to Roman Catholic church every Sunday and when he would miss church he would make sure he went on Monday.

When I finally met his other fiance….future wife. We shared so many of the same experiences about the man. Spoke the same “loving” words to her as he did I. He cried the same crockadile tears. We both had young daughters that he didn’t care about. Everything that came out of his mouth was a lie. So well scripted it is sad that someone could do that.

AlohaTraveler….thank you for your link above….I read it and it rings true to this man. This man stopped sex because the bible says to wait till marrage. He made me feel “bad” about myself….I know it is not real now but the damage was done….I wish I knew what I know now. I wish I didn’t loose everything in my life because of this man.

This man took everything from me even relationships in my life are damaged completely. And he tried to take God away! But he failed….because what he did was make my relationship with God stronger. And I know that in time everything will be O.K.

I have seen the results of God working in my life strongly. I could not have gone through the legal battle I did without him. The S Criminal thought he had shut all my doors with supper glue. But God’s hand is stronger than the devils. I cannot even begin to tell you everything I went through….one day I will write a book. I couldn’t have done it without “Father”…..

You see I believe these P’S S’s and N’s are a thread away from Hell! And they wreck havoc on peoples lives…and I know many victims end up dying from the suffering…with cancer or other ailments. I have spoken to many people about my pain and a few times people have told me that a similar thing has happened to a friend or loved one and they died a couple of years later of cancer. I know what that feels like. It’s not the loss of the money that does you in. It’s the loss of people in your life who didn’t understand what happened to you….that’s what will give you cancer….when you don’t have anyone who loves you or respects you anymore…what do you live for….God takes you away from that pain. Unless you can handle it! Or unless your fight is stronger….which is what mine was….I faught back!

The one thing I have is God….and I know that more than ever now. So in a way the S did me a big favor.

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 6:40am

James says:

alohatraveler

Thanks for the link!

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 7:43am

As for this thread, all I can say is by me having a close and personal relationship with my beliefs anyone that would use “God” and/or his teaching to manipulate others just leaves me with a very sick feeling deep inside. All I can say is that I hope my father in heaven will put these “goats” in a special place when their time comes to bow before him.

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 7:48am

Odette says:

I’m Roman Catholic though not devout and I seldom attend mass. However it still mattered to me that my ex-P was RC too. It meant we could get married in church and I was surprised to realise how much that mattered to me. He made a big deal about it too and insisted that he wanted to get married in the church.

We were living together at that stage and little did I know that the rat had already secretly converted to Islam so that he could marry the other woman he was conning. In fact he’d already booked his plane ticket to the city where they got married a couple of months later. All of this while he was still living with me!

These creatures have no respect for any person, belief or institution. They are mere shells masquerading as human beings. I still feel contaminated even though he is in jail now. My very soul feels grubby after having had this creature in my life.

On a slightly different point, I can say I’ve encountered many dubious characters who are involved with the church. I think it serves their purposes in several ways; they attain a veneer of respectability and they have access to a pool of girls and women.

My eldest brother attends Mass every single Sunday and calls himself a devout Catholic yet I know he’s pressured more than one girlfriend into having an abortion. He treats people like dirt and rarely has anything good to say about anyone, seemingly taking delight in trashing people’s characters. He left me in deep financial trouble after I helped him by taking out two personal loans on his behalf - he simply stopped paying me back for an entire year and I’m only now getting money from him in drips and drabs.

The more I find out about him the more convinced I am that he has narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies.

Wednesday, 23 July 2008 @ 8:03am

buzzibee says:

New Agers promote, encourage and demand a “me-me-me” and “I-I-I” mentality.. and when things go wrong for you, it’s YOUR fault! Sociopaths are: “me-me-me” and “I-I-I” … and then they gaslight you! (your fault). Sociopaths fit into New Age spirituality like a hand in a glove, simply because the mentality is EXACTLY THE SAME.

BEWARE of this spiritual movement. There is a RAPID increase in this ’supposedly’ beneficial lifestlyle!! MANY of the teachings are delusional and psychotic (out of touch with reality) and BOY, can your world crash when someone, having apparant spiritual convicitions, someone you have trusted implicitly, turns on you like a rotweiller on CRACK… and then gaslights you SO brazenly and with such regularity that you question your morals, your standards, your own beliefs AND your own common sense… it’s severe enough to drive you to a nervous breakdown. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:06am

Buzzibee,

You got it sister!

There is a big fat New age movement in Maui and that equates to some of the most lost people. While I do consider myself a believer in Christ, I have also spent many years in a very liberal area in the US. Before I moved to Maui, I got my Massage Therapy Diploma and used that to survive in Maui. I have been exposed to A LOT of New Age stuff… and I pick and chose carefully what I let in these days… especially after Maui. I understand what a spiritual darkness hangs over that area… especially among the mainland transplants that get swept up in this guru-foo-foo stuff.

The Bad Man wanted to go to the Unity Church in Maui a few times and I found it to be very creepy. It was nothing more than a “Me-fest” and I never once heard the words “Jesus” or “God” but I was invited many times to stare into the eyes of my neighbor and state “I love you.” BLECH!!!

While I love the Polynesian culture and their spiritual connection to the “Aina” (land), I noticed that the REAL local people were NOT at these New Age crapola workshops and Love-fests.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 3:10pm

James,

I am glad you liked the article. It was sent to me by the Mother of a friend. My friend had mentioned what I had gone through. His Mother knew a woman who was being abused by her very relgious husband. She found the article I sent you and forwarded it to me wanting to know if it was the same thing. I read it and said, “Narcissim with a Religious Twist.”

It looks like in the article and I suspect the book, they completely miss the point that there is a personality disorder driving this and not an over zealous misinterpretation of the Bible.

Very sad. I can just imagine that these psychos are out there quoting scripture back and forth: One side trying to show the abuser how he is biblically wrong and the psycho quoting back his own version and interpretation of the truth.

All the while, it is being totally missed that this is someone that can not be fixed with a few Bible verses.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 3:40pm

TrishNJ,

I have all but given up trying to share or get any understanding from anyone outside of LoveFraud. I find it to be too damaging to me and my relationships.

PEOPLE DO NOT GET IT…. THEY JUST DON’T!!!!

I accept that now.

I know I can put into words “what he did” but I can’t really put into words “how he did it.” When people hear what he did, all they can think about is what it wrong with me that I would put up with that.

We all have out pride and I hate look pathetic and stupid in front of people that I love and want to respect me.

You know how they sometimes have that clapping meter to measure how loud people are clapping on a TV show? When I try to explain to someone “what happened” it’s as if I can see an approval meter on their face and I can see the approval meter dropping fast right in front of me.

That is the visible measurement of people “not-getting-it” that you are seeing go across their face. If you want to see the approval meter go up, you can say, “Boy that was bad! But I sure learned a lot and I am moving on with my life!” Suddenly, you will see APPROVAL flash across their face! They will be SO proud of you… and you are also seeing relief as the burden to understand you is lifting.

This is just my opinion of course… it’s what I see around me.

Does anyone relate?

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 3:53pm

aloha-

I was just today thinking the same thing about another problem…but yes, I definetly agree…..MOST people do not care or want to empathize…they want the gossip but not the obligation to care.

I have given up looking or hoping for a friend. In the past I was a decent friend and found reciprociy little and far in-between. I am fortunate I have a good husband, but no family or friends to speak of.

I got in trouble looking for a friend to lean on (due to an issue I can’t really speak to with hubby- too detailed to mention, he knows of issue but it’s his so he can’t really speak on it objectively)…psycho acted as if they were a friend….and then months later when I finally mustered up the courage to express my feelings…I got one of those disemboweling out-of-the-blue psycho reactions.

I will never forget it, though there are a few moments I will never forget now…all bad. Horrible. After I admitted my vulnerability, my need….I was told I was insane. Psycho tried to convince me Iwas insane…tried hard.

So to your point Aloha- I have stopped trying and really, I am finding I write and read more. Life is better in my shell and safer.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 4:07pm

OxDrover says:

Dear Aloha,

Absolutely, your analogy of the “approval meter” is definitely RIGHT ON!

I’m fortunate that I have family who “does get it” (my two sons) and friends who “do get it” that if I am really in need of a physical shoulder to cry on, I can have one (or at least on the telephone) but as for others, I’m with you and HWS, I don’t think they really WANT to be supportive, because that takes too much energy.

I read somewhere that most people have only 4 or 5 real friends. No matter how “well known” or “popular” people are, it seems that those people that most folks call “friends” are really pretty superfiscial acquaintences at best. We called them “fair weather friends” when I was a kid, because if bad times came they were GONE.

I’ve always felt that the people you are the closest to are not those that you “party” with anyway, but those people who were there when the BAD times came. Who were there for you when you went through the tough times.

Of course good friends also share the happy times, the good times, but I think what makes them so special is the bad times that they stay there with you for. One of the women I used to consider one of my CLOSEST friends, after my husband died simply said “well, just get over it”—and you know, that’s how she felt, I’m sure, but NOW I would never discuss with her the things I discuss with you guys, or let her know if I was “emotionally bleeding” because I NOW know that our friendship is very superfiscial and that she doesn’t want to discuss the deeper meanings of life or her feelings or mine.

I was there for her when she developed leukemia, in fact, I was the one who diagnosed it…and I was THERE for her the entire year she was in the hospital…but when the time came to support me, she was NOT there. That saddens me, but that happens some times. We give more to a friendship than when the time comes that we get back. For the most part, though, I have been very supported by the really good close friends that I do have, but even they from time to time get tired of listening, and that’s understandable unless they too have had a “personal” P experience.

For the “acquaintences” those I just say “I’m doing fine. How about those Cubbies?” LOL

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 5:42pm

HolyWater and OxDover,

I want to clarify. It’s not that I think people don’t want to understand or care… especially loved ones.

I think that they can barely get that there is something they are not getting. So, if we drop the subject, there is relief.

The more we labor the point that they don’t get it, the more we try to explain what happened, the more it sounds unfathomable that we would put up with such behavior, the more we prove to them that we are pathetic, the more they just can not wrap their heads around what it means to be duped or abused by a pathological partner! Whew!

(Here I go laboring over my points again… )

Anyway, I just never get any relief talking to anyone about this stuff. Never.

Except I do like to “talk” to people here. I think we live in a different reality… a more real reality. Getting here is a rough trip and there ain’t no goin’ back! HAHA!

XO E

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 6:30pm

There you go again creating another one of those awesome expressions, Aloha.

‘A more real reality’…..does it get any more realer than living your life with a PDI then in the aftermath, confirming to yourself through rigorous education, knowledge, constant self examination, finally learning the definition, the term to use for the PDI?

whew ditto.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 6:49pm

Thanks Jane.

What is PDI? Is it Personality Disordered Individual?

Or Pathologically Disordered Individual?

I missed that day.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:17pm

Yea, Aloha, I think a “more real reality” is definitely IT! LOL You really come up with some great ones!

I know what you mean about some people (even ones that DO love us) just can’t get their heads around the “why” of what was done and the “why” of why we put up with it.

You know, I actually used to be ASHAMED that I did put up with it. That is was some character flaw in me that made me do it. I realize now that I didn’t set appropriate boundaries, and I’m working on correcting that, but it isn’t a “character flaw” or something bad or stupid in me, but it sure FELT that way for a while.

IF (and I repeat IF) someone who knows me think I should be “ashamed” or that there was some “character flaw” in me is why all this happened, they it is THEIR problem not mine. The people that I love and I know love me, don’t impute a “character flaw” to me, but to the Ps for their behavior.

This wasn’t something that I did, or you did, or anyone else but THEY DID the bad deeds. It may not have been good judgment on my part to stay around as long as I did, but it wasn’t because I was BAD, it was the Ps who were and are the bad apples. I did not victimize them, and you didn’t victimize the Bad Man, it was the other way round. It is only now that I am finally I think getting rid of the feelings of the shame of it. Logically I didn’t think I should be ashamed but the feelings are not always subject to “logic”—at least not at first. (smile)

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:34pm

Aloha:

I do relate. I have causiouly spoke to a couple of co-worker friends about “my” S and have received those same looks. I have learned by watching faces how much I can reveal.

My closest girlfriend (have talked almost daily for the last twelve years of our twenty five year friendship) and I have spoke only three times since February. She recognised “my” S for a bad person (but not an S) almost immediately. I talked to her about him, she was helpful, but couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t /couldn’t take her advise and just stop seeing him. I called her the morning after her birthday to ask if she wanted to go to lunch. She was so upset with me that I didn’t recognise her the day before that she hung up. She blames the S. for it, and blames me because she assumed he was still in my life. She thinks I’ve changed the last two years, DUH!!!

Today is my second day with NC (again) and I need her and miss her more that anything. I wish she “got it”.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:51pm

I have cautiously spoke. Sorry for the spelling errors.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 7:56pm

Lib,

Keep trying. NC is the only way to go.

The longer you go NC, the clearer things will become.

In one of the essays somewhere on here, it says something like… each time we open the door for contact, it’s another opportunity for the Sociopath to see if they can make us bleed more.

For some reason, that really struck me.

In my case it was totally correct. Everytime I was in contact, even over email… it was.. POW! ZING! POP! WHAMO! (These are my sound effects for the hate bombs he would drop on me.)

Eventually, I realized how crazy it was for me to think that it might be different sometime. It never was. It was always the same and it always hurt even if the things he was saying were completely false.

Cling to NC as if your life depends on it. Offer youself some kind of reward… celebrate in some small way for every day you can stay NC.

:o)

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 8:10pm

blondie says:

i realize he can still get me but he doest need to know that.He called yesterday and i almost gave him and responded, but i didt. i didt call back, but i wanted to, i wanted to know what he wanted to say, but i talked myself out of it. thank god. i swear on my life he just calls just to see if i will respond, thinking well maybe this time she will respond. i think sometimes they go weeks or days without calling and then they call thinking its been awhile she will pick up this time.

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 8:21pm

Thank you Aloha.

I did go shopping and bought myself a new wallet last night. One that he will never see the inside of.

However, I know I will see him again soon. Some of his mail comes here, he has his belongings in my garage and basement. He was off work yesterday and today (out cultivating another relationship.) He will probably call to “check on me” tommorow. It has taken all I have not to call and check on him. His doctor’s office called today trying to reach him. I will give him the message when he calls.

A new wallet he will not see the inside of.. I LOVE IT!

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 9:40pm

Dear Lib,

To avoid seeing him again, is there any way that you could have someone else pick up his mail and things? I’m with Aloha on this NO CONTACT is so healing, and any contact is like ripping the scab off the wound…it hurts and bleeds again.

You did well to buy a wallet he won’t see the inside of! Good thinking! You also did well not to call him back, and I know and I think everyone else here knows how hard that is to be strong enough not to call. But you are more powerful than you know…each day you will flex those power muscles and get stronger still..it’s like lifting weights or going to the gym, the more you do the stronger you become! Good going!

Thursday, 24 July 2008 @ 10:22pm

Lib.. I hope you keep coming here. The more I do the stronger and less alone I feel. The first day I found this site I was still so obsessed with my ex, and couldn’t even imagine not ever talking to him again. It’s getting better every day now, and I feel so much more happy just being myself.

Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 2:14am

Well, I picked at the scab tonight.

He called from work, like I knew he would. I answered, he thanked me for faxing a letter to the courts to keep a rapist in jail. This is a story…his 14 yr old daughter was raped last year (at 13) by a 20ish yr old family friend. S. has used this to his giant ego driven “why me God” benifit. That’s all I care to say on that.

S. works 16 hour shifts all weekend “counseling” addicts. so I won’t see him. I’ll have 5 days in a row without seeing him. Part of me views this as another stretch of NC and hope that eventually he will be totally out of my life. Another part of me misses his laugh and holding me while I sleep. Yet another part of me wants to call all the females I think he is talking to/seeing and tell them …what?

S. just called again. He needs more clothes from his storage in my basement. He keeps asking me how I am. I say “I’m ggod, I’m fine, I’m okay. He wants me to tell him I miss him or he wants me to be mad at him so he can create an arguement and then that will make him feel better for not seeing me or sleeping with someone else. I have to keeping telling myself and him “I’m okay”

Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 10:19pm

Lib-

It’s up to you. Your post sounds like a play by play of a sporting event. Your in it, but so out-of-it you have repressed or projected reality into a :dramatic event” in which you watch your self as a puppet. YOU ARE IN CONTROL….not him.

Get a restraining order, get your head straight and get him out of your home and life. He has played the system..move, change your number, remove his things.

It’s up to you, really and the stakes are high…YOUR LIFE. Fight GIRL.

Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 10:26pm

He will be out of your life when you take control of your life.

When you get ALL his stuff out of your storage, don’t take his calls, and don’t respond to him in any way. NO NO NO CONTACT, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, NONE. You can take control when YOU ARE READY TO TAKE CONTROL. As long as he can call you any time HE IS IN CONTROL.

When I train dogs, I AM IN CONTROL. I say the word and they jump. When he calls and you answer, HE IS IN CONTROL. The ONLY way you can take control is to TAKE CONTROL. As long as he speaks and you answer, HE IS IN CONTROL OF YOUR ACTIONS. When you take control, when you are ready, HE HAS NO MORE CONTROL.

You are a strong woman, you know the score. You can decide what you want and when you want it. When you are ready, take control. Take back your power. Then he will have NO control over you. (((hugs))))

Friday, 25 July 2008 @ 10:42pm

All true.. but I really feel like Lib too even though I have “enforced” no contact now.. I miss his arms dreadfully. I do not miss his bad side, but I miss his warm side. I just hope to god I never give in to these feelings again.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 1:36am

newworld view says:

i agree with holy ws….its like a sporting event…waiting for each side to make a play….and that only prolongs the pain for you….you could send an e mail that all his things will be out front for pick up on either blank or blank day…he can email which is better……..if they are not picked up by that date they will go to goodwill or salvation army…the end…YOU control that…..sometime hanging on to his things is a fantasy that things will return to how they were…THEY NEVER WILL..i tell you this A: because you ask and B: because in doing so i am also telling myself……it is not coming from a place of: i have all the answers…it is coming from a place of:we are in this battle together and lets help each other win and find peace……….sincerely, terri

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 8:13am

The comment about a “sporting event” and each side making a play, is so RIGHT ON with these psychopaths. When you do X they automatically do Y to counter your “play.”

In reading the letters that my P-son wrote to his Trojan Horse P in manipulating our family, the “plays” were SO APPARENT. He had even coached the TH-P on how to do the religious parts, and advised him of various ways to appeal to my mother’s “pious” side so that she would feel like she had “saved” the TH-P.

When his plans feel through, and everything came to light and we stopped contact, when he HAD NO MORE INFORMATION, he went ballistic! Shooting in the “dark” without any idea what was going on here. NOT KNOWING which play to make, he tried them all, the pity letter, “Oh, poor me” and then the “angry letter” “you are letting me down” and the controling one “Give me a chance to fix this, I cann fix this” and then wrote to others to get THEM to call us and plead his case. Wrote to a minister friend of ours saying how we were not true Christians because we would not give him “UNconditional love”—I guess that meant that when we found out he was trying to kill us, we quit writing him, instead of pitying him, and horror of horrors, his money supply got cut off. LOL

If they have NO CONTACT, they don’t know which “play” out of the “Psychopaths play book” they need to use. CONTACT and knowledge of how you are doing seems to be necessary for them to figure out the next move. How can you play tennis if you can’t see your opponent? How can you play golf if you don’t know which direction the hole lies? I think the thing that makes NO CONTACT so effective is that it takes away their ability to know which play to put into action. It deprives them of INFORMATION necessary to perfect their ploys. To pick the perfect manuver to hook us back in.

Next week will be the one year anniversary of the arrest of the Trojan HOrse P and my X-DIL for trying to kill my son C. Except for two payments of $25 each that my mother sent my P-son, he has had no contact at all from any of us, no response from any of the telephone calls he conned others into making for him. NO INFORMATION about how we are doing. No information even indirectly about how we are doing. All he knows is that the plot blew up, his two confederates both went to jail and his entire family quit communicating with him.

The information I have had about him, indirectly, and from the letters he continues to write to others, shows that he is FRUSTRATED TO THE MAX. He is furious that he is no longer in control. He is angry because he NO LONGER HAS AN AVENUE TO MANIPULATE US. All attempts have failed. NO RESPONSE is TOXIC to him. It is like pouring salt on his wounds, because he felt like he was SO IN CONTROL and now, NO CONTROL, NO INFORMATION. Nothing he does, no play that he puts out there, has any response. No feed back at all. The ultimate defeat of a psychopath. In my P-son’s case, there isn’t even a new victim available.

There was so long after I had “written him off” that I kept writing to him, TELLING HIM OFF, but that gave him information to USE AGAINST ME. At least with him, I no longer even have a twinge of wanting to “tell him off” because I KNOW HOW IT MAKES HIM SQUIRM to not have any information.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:04am

Thank you Ox Drover, newworld view, kat_o_nine_tales, holywatersalt and aloha:

You are right, it does seem like a slow moving tennis match right now, and I’m rationalizing in my head that tennis is better than a fast paced hockey game for a relationship. I know how ridiculous this is.

I feel I need some type of closure. Just getting rid of his stuff isn’t going to be enough. Ox, how long did you write those letters before you stopped? Did it make you feel better to write? How many of you contacted the other “victims”? Did you fell better or worse? I read somewhere “Hell hath no fury like a woman dubed by a sociopath.” I am not a vindictive person, but I need to do something!

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 6:19pm

OMG Lib I wrote and wrote and wrote.. I called, visited and begged. Then I left him alone for months, tried to forget him.. and lo and behold who should come knocking on my door one day.

Well though I agonized over it, I ended up breaking up with a really nice honest man to go back with him. Unfortunately I didn’t do it quickly enough, or something, because he immediately started ignoring me again, and insisted it was “my request” that he let me go.

Years ago I wrote letters aplenty to my husband to try and make him understand what I was going through. I was later stunned to find him and his P-mother trying to use them against me in court. It hurt and scared me so much that to this day I am afraid to write down any of my feelings for fear someone will find them and use them against me.

Write, talk if ya gotta, but I think these guys are right in saying, get his crap outta your house and it will be a start.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 8:04pm

I went to visit my son in January of 07, and I saw in that face to face visit that he was indeed PROUD of the murder he committed, not ashamed, not remorseful, that he was actually proud that he was a “billy bad ass.” DUH? And then seconds later, and I mean SECONDS later, the mask came back down and he was saying “But Mommmm, what would Jesus do?” HUH? The words from Robert Hare’s book “Without Conscience” came ringing in my ears—and I knew that I would never visit him again. But I wrote him letters to try to explain WHY until April or somewhere in that neighborhood. All the while he is plotting to KILL ME…he used the letters that I wrote to him to convince my mother I was crazy…and I am sure that many of them would have sounded crazy to someone who didn’t know how my heart had been ripped out. How badly I was hurting, knowing that my son not only was a killer but a stone-cold killer proud of what he did.

I too “wanted closure”—but not only me but many people on this site have BEGGED for some kind of closure from the psychopaths and THE ONLY CLOSURE I GOT WAS FROM ME. I had to MAKE MY OWN CLOSURE. Maybe some people get “closure” from the Psychopath, but my thoughts are that FEW of us do. I got closrue with the DIL and the Trojan Horse of a sort, when they were hauled off to jail. Plus, I didn’t have an emotional relationship with either of them so there was no “love lost” there.

With my mother though, I had to make my own closure…she wasn’t going to admit her own lies, or her enabling of my psychopathic son. The only way we got her to quit sending him money and letters was that my other biological son C told her that if he caught her doing that and found out that he would go NO CONTACT with her as well, and then she would have NO ONE that would even speak to her from the family. She would be TOTALLY alone.

I think making our OWN closure, setting that boundary of NO CONTACT is probably as close as we can come to getting “closure.”

Even after you set a PHYSICAL No Contact boundary, and enforce it, there is another type of “boundary” or No contact and that is “emotional no contact” where you quit renting them space in your head. You quit missing them, quit wanting to “explain” to them, or “get them to see”—Aloha and I both admitted that for weeks, months, we would drive down the road “talking to them” in our heads or outloud, just like we were actually TALKING to them. We both joked that other drivers must have thought we were CRAZY WOMEN beating on the dashboards, and yelling at the windshields.

I’m not sure how long I went on doing that, but for quite a while. But then one day I realized I wasn’t doing it any more. I can even think about my P son now and not feel sad, mad, frustrated, angry, and there isn’t anything I want to tell him any more. I don’t worry about his physical safety, I don’t even want to know if he is healthy or not. I guess if he is dead the prison will notify us, but my sons and I have decided that we will not claim the body. The “boy” we loved is “dead” he just doesn’t have a grave. The prison can bury the “man” that “murdered my son” and took over his body. The “Man” is a stranger, and I don’t know him. I don’t want to know him. He isn’t part of my life. The little boy “disappeared” years ago, to be replaced by someone whose heart is evil.

When my husband died, I knew he would not come back, when my sweet little boy “died” I kept hoping I could keep him on “life support” until the man he became returned to being the son I loved. It didn’t happen. It couldn’t happen. So I had to make my own closure for the “death” of the boy I loved. Bury him in my heart, and accept that he is “gone.”

The person you thought loved you is “no more” and is “gone” though the body may be walking around, just like my son’s is. But the persons we both loved never existed in reality they were a fantasy, projected like a hologram. They looked real, our love for them was real, but the relationship was one sided, it wasn’t mutual. It felt like it was real, and that felt wonderful. But now it is gone. That is our closure, the only closure we can get. We can’t fix it, we can’t return to it, it is DEAD AND GONE. We grieve over the loss. The loss was REAL to us.

We were victimized because we cared, because we could love. We were sold a “bottle of snake oil” as “genuine love” but it turned out to be fake, so we are disappointed, and rightly so. We were scammed, Conned, used, abused, treated like dirt. That hurts. If my son had been killed in a car wreck or an accident like my husband it would have been awful, but I think NOT HALF SO PAINFUL as knowing that the child I bore became a man who wants me dead so he can have my possessions that I worked for, and he feels entitled to.

The sad fact is if I had a magic wand and could get him out of prison tomorrow and give him $100 million in gold, it would not be a week before he had done something illegal, immoral and criminal…it is the THRILL of doing something bad that he loves. It isn’t the money itself, it is the “game” he enjoys playing. Impressing himself and others with what a Billy Bad Ass he is.

The only consolation I have is that NO CONTACT frustrates his plans, his con, renders him POWERLESS and IMPOTENT to accomplish his games. That’s as close to “justice” as I can get for him. That and doing my best to see that he spends the rest of his natural life in prison.

Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:00pm

Thank you all for this outlet!

I know I need to find my own closure. I know I will not get closure from him. He brags that he can go back to any of the women he has had relationships with and be their friend. This has made me think in the past that I am whacko or that I must be as stupid as those women. Surely out of the 600 or so women he has been with, one or two of them have experienced what I am going through. This makes me want to contact them for my closure, but I don’t know if I should.

Tonight, a girlfriend from work will be helping me deliver the rest of his summer clothes and shoes to his new place, while he is at work. She is then taking me to a comedy club to celebrate one week since he has been to my home. Baby steps.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:14pm

Beverly says:

Sorry Lib, but I had to do a double take! How many women??!? I think if I found out a partner of mine had been with that many women, I would be running a mile without any conversation whatsoever. Problem is that we dont often know at first what their history is, they will often edit, or omit certain details. During my time with the exN and when we had a break, much to his annoyance, I went and spoke to his ex girlfriend about him, and then as things started to reveal themselves as not right, I realised that he had been completely different with her and I realised that he had modified his behaviour in the relationship, in a sense he had dragged his baggage from his last gf into the relationship with us. If only they came with a log book of prior history, rather like a car, it would be so much easier.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:37pm

henry says:

My X bragged about his friend’s. He would call them often and leave messages and they never returned his calls. I even had him a big birthday party and invited his so called friend’s, none showed up. One time when we were arguing I said you don’t have any friend’s and he said “yes I do, If I really pushed it” all of his friend’s are new friend’s they don’t stay around for long. Beside’s he preferred the company of stranger’s.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:38pm

Lib congrats on the one week!! It is week 16 for me, it get’s better……..

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 1:41pm

Henry, my ex had only one friend who had fathered 6 kids by 6 different women and he punched the women and this man, although in his late 40s is like a kid. I kept thinking - now what would my ex see in a friend like THAT??? Now i realise, it is like finding the meaning to all those odd things they did.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:24pm

[Quote Henry] “all his friends are new friends, they don’t stay around for long.”

When they first meet him they think he is cool and nice, but very quickly they see he is not nice or cool and is a user and they drop him.

[Quote Henry] “he preferred the company of strangers”

Strangers haven’t yet caught on to him and he can get positive feed back from them for a short time. He has found that people who know him quickly move on, so he keeps his ego intact by a continual meeting of new people for a short time. I think people who hang out in clubs or bars on a regular basis use this as a way of life for socializing because it is all so superfiscial and short term. A perfect hunting ground for psychopaths to latch on to new victims.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 2:45pm

has anyone ever read When Your Lover Is A Liar by Susan Foward? this is book is great, i suggest everyone read it. they have a section about sociopaths. if anyone has read it let me know what you think?

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 3:12pm

Beverly:

You read correctly. This S. did come with a log book of sorts. He gave me three of his journals to read over the last 15 years since he haas been clean. In 1999 he had been with well over 300 women he had counted and just lumped all the dial a date meet ups as one. In 2005, when I met him, he talked of repeating the same behaviors over and over, including all the sex to boost his self esteem and trying to keep the lust under control. Without his knowledge, I have read his 4th step which included a list of women he could remember, what he thought of them and what he got from the sex. He also listed the first, second and third woman that he had hit. He seemed remorseful in his private writings. I didn’ t read any of this until the last couple of months and I have not mentioned any of it to him.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 6:34pm

Lib, just because in his “private” writings he seemed remorseful doesn’t mean he wasn’t purposely saying these things to SHOW others. My son was really good at that sort of wrting. FAKE FAKE FAKE. But he was good at it.

Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 7:50pm

I just got home from celebrating one week w/o him in my home. One of the comedians I saw talked about part-time christians, fake men, and how sex and weed rules over Jesus for black men. It was really funny, but interesting to watch all the women laugh who could relate to this and seamingly just accept it.

I then took the rest of S’s clothes to his home. He was there. He left work early because he had “words” with the nurse. Big surprise, he’ll probably get fired from this job too. I didn’t turn the van off or get out of my seat. As he took out the large container of clean, folded summer clothes, the hamper full of clean socks and underwear, he complained and tried to argue about the three trash bags of dirty clothes becuase I didn’t wash them. I gave him the facts on his clothes and didn’t buy into his negative stuff. He called before I got home to apologize for “snaping on me” and wanted to see how I was doing. This reinforces what I need to do. Things really happen for a reason.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 12:00am

Dear Oxy,
You are like a mother to us here, (no reference to age implied :D), so incredibly wise. My heart goes out to you so much for having your own flesh and blood turn on you like that. My first husband was just the same way, even admitted years later that he was plotting to murder me (ya think? he was outright practicing)

I remember lying in bed one night and I got this weird feeling. I opened my eyes, it was black dark that night, but I could hear someone breathing. He had climbed in the window. He climbed onto the bed and pulled off my clothes, then put his hands around my throat. He had done this before as a “joke”, but this time I knew he was not pretending.

Even this attempt on my life was laced with psychological terror. He was reminding me that he could get into our house no matter how much I locked it up, because it was so old and there were so many cracks and broken panes (his work as well).

The use of his bare hands was also a message. When we were in karate class together we all used to play a game where we tried to break raw potatoes by squeezing them. He was the only one who could do it, they would not only break they would explode. He was a carpet man for many years and had the strongest fingers I’ve ever seen.

This time I played dumb, I played along, I pretended he was “only” trying to rape me, (one of his favorite pastimes) instead of murder me. I pretended I wanted sex with this murderous man, and I escaped with my life.

But through it all I had one consolation, my kids were faithful. Sometimes they fell for his lies temporarily, sometimes they were confused about what was true, but he never succeeded in turning them against me.

I have one son who is very much like his father. I am trying my best to bring him up right, trying my best to warn him about the consequences of becoming a sociopath. Sometimes he will take one step in that direction, such as putting me down when he is angry about having to do chores.

This used to hurt me, but now I see it for what it is, he’s trying out the persona. So now I tell him, “Nice try, very much like your dad. I hope for your sake and mine that is not the path you choose in life.. but for now, since you are still under my roof, because you chose to show your anger by disrespecting me, now you are doing double chores. (can only hope it all sinks in, but all his sibs are watching him too.. )

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:55am

And oh .. Lib.. two thumbs up!!!

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 8:57am

Dear Kat,

I hope you are successful in directing your son in the proper path, but if he choses not to take the proper path, the only thing I can say is to cut the string when you recognize that there is nothing else you can do. It hurts to “give up” on your kid, but when they are psychopaths there is nothing else to do. Especially if they go the criminal route. Mine chose that criminal route and it was like he was DETERMINED to go to prison.

I don’t take being called “like a mother” as an insult at all, I enjoyed being a mother, and I still do, but now I don’t boss the kids around as they are men and they “boss me around” now. LOL “Mom, get off that ladder NOW” “Mom, quit doing that you’re gonna kill yourself” “Mom, let me do this, sit down and you can supervise me, but let me do it.” LOL

They tell me if I don’t “behave” now, that when I get infirm, they will put me in a nursing home, take my teeth away and feed me lumpy oatmeal with a straw! LOL

Kat, that must have been very scary for you with your X–I can’t even imagine how you kept your cool through that. I hope he has lost his murderous rage at you.

Lib–so he was mad cause you didn’t WASH all his clothes! OH WELLL!!!!! I hope you’ve got all his stuff out of your house so you don’t have to even answer the phone for him any more. Good going!

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:13am

kat….how absolutely frightening for you….shows how utterly impulsive they are….maybe he came in with a plan and your quick thinking allowed his childish impulses to forget why he was really there…shudderring!!!!!!!!!

and lib you are a far kinder person than i…….i let him know when his junk would be outside and had a prearranged police car there to oversee his picking up his junk and getting out…..i had just bought him a steve mcqueen tag huer watch and decided NOT to put it in the pile nor the very nice ties i had just bought him and he had the gall to leave a message asking for them….and he was going to get an attorney to get his slot cars back……i had taken many items to the salvation army and perhaps these were some of the things……go ahead..i felt get an atty to get back SLOT cars?? i didnt even know what they were…how childish………..what a jerk……i DID get a letter from a WOMAN atty and responded that they could do what they needed, but common sense says why would i return big item and keep stupid childish slot cars….that ended that……..but oh how much that atty really didnt know

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 9:54am

Thx guys for sympathy.. god that was so many years ago it feels like it happened to somebody else. Of course I didn’t tell anyone about it for a long time… they would not have believed me. I was so shocked to find myself alive at the end of this relationship.

Oxy.. heck no he hasn’t lost his rage at me. In his mind I ruined his life by having his kids (how I’m not sure, since he never visits them or pays for them) I’ve become his backstory and scapegoat, whenever he moves on to new pastures. My only safety from him lies in NC and being moved to the “back burner” of his mind.

He’s also expanded his rage, and my daughter is afraid he has now murdered his gf. She has disappeared, and their apt. building mysteriously burnt down right after that, and now he has left the state and is hiding out somewhere out West. He keeps sending my daughter messages saying he is back together with his gf, and that she is “very ill” and will likely die.

About my son.. I will never give up on him, but neither will I ever enable him. We have a pretty good relationship, and he has way more conscience than his dad, so we are all pretty hopeful but like I said, watchful.

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 6:55pm

dear kat…….pls have someone, even anonymously, give that info to police somewhere….PLEASE

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 7:29pm

I agree with NEWWORLDVIEW–I think the police MUST BE TOLD about the GF’s disappearance and the burning of the building. It is not outrageous (given the things you have told us about this man) that indeed he did kill her. My son is a murder, and has attempted to have ME killed (you see why I advised you to cut the cord if you see ANYONE i s a psychopath) and I know of at least TWO people my bio-father actually killed (he claimed more) so I am WELL aware of what these RAGEFUL P’s can do. Sometimes these people go on to being serial killers and a phone call to alert the police is all the need to “get on to” these people. You don’t have to let them know who you are. At least think about it.

My son is in prison for the first (known) murder and I will make it my life’s work to see that he stays there the REST of his natural life because I have no doubt that if he gets out I will either have to go back into hiding or eventually kill him to protect myself. If he gets out after I am dead and gone, he will go after his brothers and/or some unsuspecting fools that get into his way. Your X sounds just like my P-bio father or my P-son. They are the worst of the worst, the RABID predators without any fear at all. I am thankful to God that you got out alive. I’m also glad that your son has a conscience, that’s a big plus in your and his favor!

Monday, 28 July 2008 @ 10:14pm

I am going to give it to the police but it would be filed away somewhere if I did it now, because I do not know her last name, or where he went. My daughter and I are trying to find all this stuff out then I will most definitely take it to the police and also try to make sure they investigate it.. BUT.. there is no way I will confront him because I will be next.

I escaped from him once.. I do not know if I will be so lucky next time. My poor daughter is having a battle of wills with him over the e-mail, with both of them trying to pump the other for information.

One of our biggest concerns is he is trying to find out info on my oldest son who just got back from Iraq. If he does find him, my son’s combat pay will be gone in a flash, as he is no match for his dad’s manipulative ways.

My daughter is trying to get him to let her speak to the gf on the phone, because they know each other, but I am worried about her doing this little investigation. People in my exes circle are only safe as long as they don’t threaten his “existence” (meaning his lifestyle). At the moment she is living in Norway and I’m so glad she has that distance. Dammit that man will never just go away. Sometimes I do wish he would just die, it would be so much better for the rest of the world.

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:04am

Also.. you guys oughta know by now how ineffective the police can be when dealing with this stuff. If he did kill his gf, it will be almost the only crime he has ever committed. He’s changed his name and moved several times, they will never put the effort into finding him without a body or something, anything to make them suspicious. We also have no proof he burned the apt. building, heck I don’t even think anyone knows where it is. We all thought it was just a story he fed the kids to explain why he couldn’t do anything for christmas yet again. The best I can do is keep my eyes open and try to collect the facts, for now.

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:09am

kat…..you and your daughter should stop your investigation..dont SHOW him your interest…..give the authorities his name and info…they can track via isp addresses if they want or other phone and addresses by any aliases he is using…they can…you two must stay safe

Tuesday, 29 July 2008 @ 6:59am

Kat, I agree with NWV that you and your daughter would be better off to tell the police. Don’t suppose that they won’t listen, belive me the POLICE were the ONLY ONES WHO DID LISTEN TO ME.

My X-BF did burn the home of

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Sociopaths pretending to be religious

90 Comments to “Sociopaths pretending to be religious”

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