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Psychopaths in everyday life

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 8:05am • My Weblog

In honor of the 4th of July we celebrate but also reflect on how to make our nation and world a better place. I therefore thought it would be fitting to review for you a book, Psychopaths in Everyday Life, by Robert W. Rieber. I highly recommend the book to readers who have some background in psychology. The book explains Dr. Rieber’s view of psychopathy and also discusses how psychopathy relates to what he calls “Social Distress Syndrome.” He says that America is plagued by this Social Distress Syndrome and therefore is breeding psychopaths/sociopaths.

First Dr. Rieber’s view on psychopathy. I was also fortunate to meet with Dr. Rieber to discuss his ideas in detail. He has interviewed many serial killers and has written extensively about psychopathy/sociopathy. By the way, he also has a lot to say about the case of Sybil and the idea of multiple personality.

His view of psychopathy is very similar to my own, and I should say, my own view was shaped prior to discovering this work. His view of psychopathy also appears to be very similar to that of Jack Levin, Ph. D., another psychologist who has worked with serial killers.

Dr. Rieber states, “In my view, the following four salient characteristics, thrill seeking, pathological glibness, the antisocial pursuit of power, and the absence of guilt, distinguish the true psychopath.” He further emphasizes that psychopathy is not a category but a continuum (a point I have also discussed previously see Psychopathy verses sociopathy again… ).

Drs. Rieber and Levin both have an opinion that sets them apart from other psychopathy experts. I want to share this view with you because I think you should be aware of differing opinions. Based on my personal and professional experiences, I also think their view has the advantage of helping us make sense of our first-hand observations.

If you read expert writings on psychopathy, you will see that the mainstream experts seem to hold the opinion that psychopaths/sociopaths lack guilt and empathy. Mainstream experts also teach that lack of a conscience is responsible for the disorder. Any therapist, teacher, minister or observer of humans will tell you that many people have a deficit in empathy and/or guilt and yet these people do not necessarily engage in an “antisocial pursuit of power.” I believe that the focus on the deficits of psychopaths has prevented us from seeing the most important aspect of the disorder- the antisocial pursuit of power.

The minute we say that victims are harmed, not because of a psychopath’s deficits, but because of his or her aberrant motivation, we have a good perspective on what we went through. We need to understand power motivation in order to understand the psychopath/sociopath. It is also power motivation, I believe, that ties psychopathy/sociopathy to the problems of our society.

There is a great quote from the book that leads into an explanation of another point that both Drs. Levin and Rieber make. It is, “The true psychopath compels the psychiatric observer to ask the perplexing, and largely unanswered question: Why doesn’t that person have the common decency to go crazy?”

So why don’t psychopaths have the common decency to go crazy? Dr. Rieber explains, “Since psychopaths act as if they were perfectly normal, i.e. sane, they must be skilled in a cunning manner to dissociate any real guilt that they should feel about their antisocial behavior.” He also says that since psychopaths dissociate, they don’t go crazy. He believes dissociation prevents them from experiencing guilt. He also says that many psychopaths do have some level of guilt they are dissociated from.

Dissociation is a difficult concept to grasp. It means to block out a thought or emotion. The ability to dissociate is related to hypnosis which is an induced dissociated state. Dr. Rieber told me that he does not believe that a person can be completely without guilt or empathy. He instead sees the psychopath/sociopath as being able to block out these from his/her experience. This view is shared by Dr. Levin who asks another interesting question. If psychopaths are unable to experience empathy, how is it that they enjoy hurting other people so much? To enjoy hurting they have to know and to some extent feel, they have hurt.

All of us have seen that psychopaths seek out ways to hurt people. They don’t do it by accident. They therefore have to have enough empathy to know when they have succeeded in their power goals and to feel gratified by the act of hurting. Dr. Levin terms the ability of a psychopath to be cut off from any negative emotion during the act of pleasure, compartmentalization. The concept of compartmentalization is basically the same as that of dissociation. When we discussed these terms, Dr. Rieber told me that Freud called the same process repression.

There is some interesting research from the lab of Dr. Joseph P. Newman demonstrating that psychopaths have an extraordinary ability to focus on a source of reward and ignore punishers. So there is experimental evidence supporting the link between psychopathy and dissociation/ compartmentalization/ repression.

But how is psychopathy related to The Social Distress Syndrome? Dr. Rieber puts together a nice argument demonstrating that the breakdown of all of our social institutions is associated with an increase in the prevalence of psychopathy. He says psychopaths and psychopathy permeate our society. However, the book does not discuss why or how social distress is causally related to psychopathy developing in individuals and in institutions. I will present my own opinion about that for you to consider on this July 4th.

If the pleasures of power and thrill seeking are behind psychopathy, and psychopaths can easily ignore everything within and outside themselves to focus on these pleasures, then we have to ask, “How is it that these pleasures become the most important thing in a person’s life?” The answer to that question has been in scientific writings for a long time and in religious writings for even longer.

The great primate researcher Harry Harlow made the observation nearly 30 years ago that the motivations of love and power are in an opposing balance. He discovered that thankfully in primates including humans, the love motive develops before the power motive. Because the love motive develops first it is stronger and puts the brakes on the power motive. A baby starts learning to love at birth or even before. The desire for power doesn’t start until the second year of life.

Now we can see the link between social distress and psychopathy/sociopathy. When all of our society’s institutions are broken, including the family, we are robbed of the capacity to fully experience love and to develop the ability to love. Instead of being motivated to love and care we become motivated to compete and take. The motivations of love and power are mutually exclusive, so a person can’t be simultaneously motivated by both. Also the pleasure of love has to be practiced to be maintained. There is no vaccination against evil. Love during childhood doesn’t prevent psychopathy for life. If love is not practiced during all phases of life relationships become power focused instead.

The answer for ourselves, the psychopath and our country is simple and yet extremely difficult. We need to restore ourselves to a place of love for our fellow humans. If love is primary we will still engage in friendly competition, but we will not get pleasure from cutting each other’s throats!

Love motivation has to permeate our families, our places of worship, our schools, our work places, our government and our foreign policy. When love rather than power becomes our most important pleasure, then we will all have a path toward social and personal well-being.

Until our collective pleasure balance is in the right loving place, we will all have to cope with the Psychopaths in Everyday Life.

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written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •

Benzthere says:

Dr. Leedom,

“How is it that these pleasures become the most important thing in a person’s life?”

It seems to me one obvious reason is greed. I think greed has not only become socially acceptable, it’s become the standard to strive for and it’s survival of the fittest.

In addition, unless the greed is sufficiently elevated to entice media attention, there is little deterrent with minimal punishment for whomever is stepped on or snuffed out, just the opposite. Instead there is reward, because the greedy have taken control, through politics, the law, the media, religion, etc., the breakdown of our societal institutions.

And until greed is exposed, and even sometimes after, society considers them the hero, the emulated leader, not the villian they are because greed has become an acceptable replacement for love.

(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 10:53am

Wini says:

Dear Dr. Leedom and Benzthere:

Found right from the Bible:

Psalms 10: 3 For the wicked boasts of the desires of his heart, and the man greedy for gain curses and renounces the LORD.

Job 20: 20 “Because his greed knew no rest, he will not save anything in which he delights.

Proverbs 15: 27 He who is greedy for unjust gain makes trouble for his household, but he who hates bribes will live.

Proverbs 28: 25 A greedy man stirs up strife, but he who trusts in the LORD will be enriched.

Jeremiah 6: 13 “For from the least to the greatest of them, every one is greedy for unjust gain; and from prophet to priest, every one deals falsely.

Jeremiah 8: 10 Therefore I will give their wives to others and their fields to conquerors, because from the least to the greatest every one is greedy for unjust gain; from prophet to priest every one deals falsely.

Ezekiel 16: 27 Behold, therefore, I stretched out my hand against you, and diminished your allotted portion, and delivered you to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior.

Hosea 4: 8 They feed on the sin of my people; they are greedy for their iniquity.

Habakkuk 2: 5 Moreover, wine is treacherous; the arrogant man shall not abide. His greed is as wide as Sheol; like death he has never enough. He gathers for himself all nations, and collects as his own all peoples.”

1 Corinthians 5: 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

1 Corinthians 5: 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber–not even to eat with such a one.

1 Corinthians 6: 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 4: 19 they have become callous and have given themselves up to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of uncleanness.

1 Thessalonians 2: 5 For we never used either words of flattery, as you know, or a cloak for greed, as God is witness;

1 Timothy 3: 8 Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain;

Titus 1: 7 For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

2 Peter 2: 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.

2 Peter 2: 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!

Peace to everyone’s heart and soul.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 12:12pm

alohatraveler says:

Whenever I read one of your articles, it always makes me think Bad Man does not qualify as a Sociopath. I don’t think he derived pleasure in seeing me in pain. I don’t think he cared either. I think he felt totally and completely justified in all his actions and vicious words. This points to Narcissism for me.

He seemed out of control when he went on a rage path for 2-3 days.. that to me is extreme Borderline.

My take is that Sociopaths are more of the plotting and scheming types. Is that right in the simplest terms?

It seems like Sociopath’s swindle their victims out of money and psychopaths are more violent. Is this correct or over simplifying?

This is why I have taken to calling him “Bad Man” and “pathological partner.” I just don’t know for sure. I could tell you a bunch more stuff but what is the point?

At this point, the only reason I care anymore is because I would like to be able to educated people and I wish I just could get it straight!

In your professional experience, do you find that among colleagues, it is difficult for you all to come to an agreement when diagnosing someone like one of these guys or do you all easily agree… that one is a Sociopath.. that one is a psychopath… that one is just Borderline…etc

I keep reading, hoping I will get it. Humans are complex. I guess there isn’t a test when it comes to behavior like there is for a disease.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 12:48pm

Dear Everyone:

I’ve met anti-socials that came from Loving Homes (no physical violence) and anti-socials that came from dysfunctional homes (with violence). I’ve met anti-socials that are this way due to the physical violence perpetrating on them since they were children, hence, blocking out their emotions in order to survive while siblings in the same household were not as sensitive and did not block their emotions. Other anti-socials coming from “loving” homes is an ego issue with them. Their egos took off instead of staying “humble” while viewing a reprimand as children. Staying humble allows us to comprehend an instruction of a reprimand, egos block out the instruction and doesn’t care what is to be learned. These egos lead their thinking in how to conduct their lives. Not finding and then knowing the truth (wisdom) by taking the righteous path (staying humble) and learning God’s lessons. They arrogantly refused to take these paths – thinking and believing their own ego was the way to conduct their lives which continued on through adulthood. I call it “shooting from their hips” way of living. Living what they (the ego) thinks is the right way to live versus, learning what is the right way to live via the way of God, by reading the Bible. The break down in society is due to not attending church and then going home and taking 20 minutes to a 1/2 per day reading our Bible. Our ancestors attended church and read their Bibles, hence, these teachings were passed down from generation to generation. From the late 1960s on to the present is the breakdown of attendance in attending church on a weekly basis. Church equaling community = keeping community circled = together = the benefit of all = ensuring the Bible is read = ensuring community hears and then gets to understand through example by fellow (elders of society) parishioners the word of God (wisdom is obtained from the wise and passed down). And so on and so forth. Our society’s breakdown is a free for all (due to the anti-socials getting to positions of power along the way, each anti-social personality helping another anti-social personality to the top level of positions of power) – no rules, no regulations (thank most (not all) of the attorneys and their greed for this to happen in our world), no structure etc. DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO FOR THE ELITE OVERSEEING SOCIETY. Only chaos allowed to flourish and all those that are GOOD get a kick in the butt and beaten down and stepped on and stepped over and of course, ostracized to the hills. Everyone is paying attention to the smoke screens created by the anti-socials that rule and have no clue that they have to pay attention to the reality that we are all pawns by the anti-socials except for a handful out there in our world. But the anti-socials make sure that the divide and conquer routines established throughout society exists to keep chaos flourishing. While chaos flourishes … no one pays attention to the people at the top who are controlling all of us through this chaos. EGO = erase God out. Meaning, anti-socials do not believe in God. God is love. Anti-socials only believe in their own big egos, hence, never learning about God and the love God has for all of us. If anti-socials can be walked step by step through God’s teachings, they too can learn what God is all about. God created us, we are all children of God. Not children of the EGOs of the world.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 1:17pm

OxDrover says:

This is very interesting. Though my enabling mother covers up her “enabled’s” bad deeds, and even lies about her own bad deeds, yet she keeps up a “mask” of “moral superiority.” It has been difficult for me to “label” her psychopathic, as she fits none of the psychopathic check list for “life history”—so I labeled her “psychopath by proxy” as her behavior toward others of DELIBERATELY hurting me as punishment, and lying to me without any apparent guilt, and when cornered on it with evidence, then projects the “excuse” for her lie back on to me.

By the definition of this book, my mother would be a psychopathic personality I think, because she does know right from wrong, chooses to do what is “wrong” (knowing it is wrong) yet seems to enjoy hurting those she is angry at (me especially) and does things she KNOWS will hurt, deliberately.

Looking back over my life, I can truthfully say I have hurt those I loved in many ways, but NEVER EVER DELIBERATELY set out to say “I love John, but I am angry at him so I will do X because I know it will hurt him.” I can’t even imagine deliberately setting out to hurt someone I love, or deliberately saying something that isn’t true in an effort to hurt them.

I do see our society “crumbling” without even a PRETENCE in some cases of people doing what is “right” and we are told that we can’t be “judgmental” about people’s “life styles” which are, to me at least, OBVIOUSLY hurtful to others. The media darlings that are “role models” for our youth living lives of adultery, drugs, multiple partners, children out of wedlock over and over again, children born who have no consistent parental concern or care for them. Politicians who are corrupt, captains of industry stealing from the stock holders, etc etc. Where is the compass of morality for our society? Where is the “it’s not OK to act like that”—if you are rich enough or powerful enough, your 15 minutes of shame is forgotten by the public and they reelect you to office.

My mother’s focus most if not all of her life was “what would the neighbors think?” but it wasn’t about making her or the family’s monsters actually behave, but KEEPING THE NEIGHBORS FROM FINDING OUT ABOUT THE BAD BEHAVIORS, but there is now no feelings of “shame” in the community for bad behavior because it is so “common” and the woman who has 5 children by 4 fathers, does drugs and her parents raise the children because she won’t quit drugs or sleeping around long enough to care for them, but there is no “shame” and no “sanctions” from the community as a whole for her behavior to at least make her publicly “tone it down” if nothing else. Her parents had a moral compass and still do. Why did this moral compass not pass to the next generation? I’m not sure.

I have a moral compass, and one of my two biological sons has a moral compass and the other is a full fledged psychopathic murderer. There are genetic links I know, and for those there is some validity in that it was “passed on” genetically from my mother’s family which had plenty of Ps and my biological father, who was a full fledged P himself.

But why is society as a whole seeming to start to accept psychopathic behavior as OK, the demonstrations of greed, the demonstrations of not caring for children, etc. That I don’t know, but it seems to be escalating in our society as we grow richer and more arrogant as a society.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 1:54pm

JaneSmith says:

I agree with Benz and Wini; greed is the motivating factor for all anti-social behavior, for fermenting “social distress”, for completely destroying everything we should value as a society: ethics, morals, compassion, connectedness, love, our fundamental concept of humanity.

And thank you, Wini, for listing Scripture quotes. The Word is the Truth, and always will be.

And Liane, your last 3 paragraphs are wise and profound. Defining the basic rules, laws of nature, that govern human beings in an effort to produce harmony, balance, cohesion. Only through love is society able to advance, to move beyond the constraints of primal needs and desires, power motivations. By birthing this love, by nurturing this love I believe a collective social consciousness develops, allowing humans to transcend the base characteristics, the tawdry, distrubing ego driven characteristics, to become what it really means to be a human being.

I truly believe that each one of us is connected to each other on every level; spiritual, emotional, intellectual, physcial, and psychological. We define our lives by the relationships we have with others, whether they are intimate or casual acquaintances. We are touched, moved, inspired by, hurt by others, which in effect causes us to either grow, learn, become wise mature adults, or to stagnate in a state of perpetual arrested development. What you wrote and what I believe are idealistic sentiments. They ARE truth, the reality as it unfolds by observing people’s actions and reactions to each other. I yearn for a better world, I do. A world where love is the primary motivation for each deed, each act towards another person and all living creatures on this planet.

I may not ever have the privilege to witness such a universal love solidarity, but I will strive to live a righteous life, with love permanently rooted in my heart so I can be a service to humanity, able to share my love, my God-given gifts, with any person who wishes it.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 3:19pm

Dear JaneSmith:

Thank you, your thoughts to all of us does my heart good. Let us all remember God is Love and Love is God. Period. Wisdom can only be obtained by surrounding yourself with wise individuals and reading the word of God. Praying to God to assist you in understanding his word. Just ask God and God will deliver.

Remember, just attending church services isn’t the same as reading the word of God. Church is community and the doorway to God. Opening your Bible and reading the word of God is every thing and the only thing every one of us needs to do. If you are afflicted in any way that prevents you from reading the Bible, have someone read it for you or get the word of God on disk.

We should humble ourselves to God. God created us in his image. God is the way. Everything else is man made ego which is Erase God Out (EGO).

We should respect our forefathers and live our lives humbly the way they lived by the word of God. I think it’s appropriate to explain this again on this 4th of July. Pray for our service people fighting for our freedom and to believe in God.

Peace.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 4:14pm

Sunny says:

Hi, I am feeling so sad today. 4th of July. I know all about his disorder and have had no contact for more than a year. But today, the hot sun and the lonliness, even though I have been dating, bring back memories of the summer I shared with him during the honeymoon phase. Dammit. It was the best summer of my life and today I am trapped in missing it. Missing the fantasy and forgetting the man.

Plus i know he is with a new girl who is following the same time line as I did. So they are the beach. They are sleeping in “our” bed. Going to “our” special places. They are with his family and of course, his family adores her too, making her feel a part of just like they did me, and then poof they were gone with every other lie. But it was fun before the pathology took over.

Is it normal for the families, even the N or S’s inlaws to play along with the fantasy and make each victim feel as special as the S does? I envy her! I hate this feeling because I know, from this blog and my research that pathologicals do not change. But my fear under it all is that maybe with her, he will. And maybe it was me who ruined it all.

So I came here today through the tears I thought had dried long ago and were triggered by the damn holiday for you to tell me it ain’t so. He never loved me. I was never part of his family and neither is she. I’m sorry I just can’t handle it right now and I’m so ashamed of myself. I thought I was done and healed and here it is again. I don’t know if I will ever recover from him faking my dream come true and taking it away to leave me all alone in this shock and sadness.

I have no friends to talk to because they wouldn’t believe I was still thinking about him after all this time and all these great men now interested in me. So I keep it inside and think sometimes I will go insane. And yes, I tried therapy and they told me to concentrate on my life. Duh. I do, it’s been great. It was fine. And then it hit me.

Thanks for any coping advice. I know it will pass and tomorrow will be Sunny again. Happy Holiday to you all.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 6:22pm

Amen, Wini…amen.

Every thought, idea, belief that I write and/or speak is Holy Spirit driven. Every minute of every day the Holy Spirit moves within and inspires me to do better, to touch other’s in love. God’s love.

I occupy this space and time, in the material realm. I am aware of my existence and the effect I have on others, positive and negative. I wish to minimize the negative impact as much as possible, and this is done through prayer and by reading the Word, abiding my God’s rules, God’s laws.

And as I consider myself to be the Lord’s child, it is my duty, my responsibility to fulfill the Lord’s commands as they are written in the Word, to live my life in service to humanity, through Him. To do what he compels me to do. Some may label it as having an extreme conscience. I know it’s the loving, caring Holy Spirit, the Lord working his mysterious, wonderful ways in my heart.

I have so very far to go and it’s more than likely my journey will not end on the material plane of existence, but will continue in the spiritual plane, in Heaven.

The one thing that I reflect on, right now at this time, is my inability to generate a single gram of compassion for PDIs. The only emotions I can express are righteous anger and a small amount of pity. Anger at the utter destruction, havoc, emotional, physical, spiritual, mental distress they cause in the lives of their undeserving, unsuspecting victims. Pity at how wasted, how useless, how disgusting their lives truly are. Whether or not they are oblivious to said reprehensible behavior, actions and deeds to the victims, is irrelevant to me. They hurt people to satisfy their own evil, selfish needs.

I will remain now and forever in the NO CONTACT zone for any and all human predators. My life, your life, everyone’s life is too, too precious to spend one second with deviants. The walking zombies, the emotional vampires, human demons who try to diligently steal what they cannot have. Our beautiful souls.

Just say NO!

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 6:40pm

Dear Sunny:

I hear you and feel your pain. You’re at the beginning of the passage to get through what was dumped in your path. Do me a favor, get a piece of paper and write down all the good and positive things about yourself. Start with 20 things that you like about yourself. If you make it to 20, write another 20 positive things you like about life. Look at the flowers and the trees surrounding you. If you have a pet, pay attention to your pet and love your pet, they are unconditional love. A gift from God.

Write me back with your list. You’ll make it, you can feel and love, that’s half the battle. Be kind to yourself. Pamper yourself. You are worth it, you deserve it. If anyone will treat you good, it is you. Cry if you want, it is OK. God is allowing you to feel this pain. Pain is God’s way of allowing us to grow.

Peace to your heart and soul.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 6:50pm

Oh Wini, this is awesome that people are here RIGHT NOW to talk to. I feel better already,, I even started cleaning my place. Okay, you don’t know me but your advice is exactly what I have been doing over a year. I sit in beautiul places in nature, adore my new dog! I practice gratitude often (a little self pity today) My list…well, kinda embarassing but here goes…you are sweet!

I am funny
I have nice long time friends
People respect me
I am talented
I am responsible
I am pretty
I take good care of myself and my pets
I feeling deserving of a good life
I love God and know God loves me (it’s obvious, he gave me my rescue dog and she is truly a gift!)
Am I at 20 yet?
I have nice feet
Children really like me
I have much compassion and people say a kind heart
I seek spiritual truth and am open to lessons of the universe
I make a mean lasagna
I take risks
I have a very interesting life most of the time
I seek knowledge to heal myself
I am actually writing this list!

Thanks Wini, wanna send me yours. I bet you have a lot.

Sunny xxoo

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 7:01pm

Dear Sunny,

Healing is a long path, it isn’t a destination. There is a good thread here recently about when there is a trigger that we still have some healing to go back and do and that is a signal that we need to go back and look at these feelings we thought maybe were buried or gone.

I recently had one with my mother, and actually, I am glad it happened, though at the time it was painful, but I think it was something I NEEDED to work on and had been avoiding, but being triggered to be angry and hurt again helped me to work through it AGAIN, and I hope that this time it is completed, but if it isn’t and it comes back again, I will DEAL WITH IT. It is all we can do in order to heal.

I know you think a year is a long time, but really, the devestation that they do to us sometimes it takes longer in terms of “time”–it just depends on the person and how badly they were hurt, what tools they have to use to heall with, etc. but dont feel badly at yourself because in ayear you haven’t completely healed, for some of us it takes longer than others.

Yes, I know your friends and family don’t understand how badly you were hurt, and that seems to be the case for most of us. Sometimes we need to learn to VALIDATE ourselves, and that may be the only validation we get in some situations. But that is ENOUGH. Truth is truth no matter if you are the ONLY person in the world that knows it. YOU know the truth about your X, and so it is still true, if you are the ONLY person who knows it.

It is good to come here to be validated by others, but the ultimate validation you need is YOUR OWN validation. To learn what “went wrong”–why you allowed this person to take control of your “soul”–not that you did anything “wrong” I am not in any way blaming YOU, but learning from this experience will prevent you from ever having another one in the future where you are blind sided by another P.

Learning to see the red flags so that you can spot the next P before he gets his hooks into your flesh to drag you down. That in a way is the best lesson from this experience. As painful as it has been, it makes us less vulnerable to the next one. God bless and have a better day (((Hugs))))

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 7:07pm

Dear JaneSmith: Tolle calls anti-socials obnoxious. Nice word for those who venture through life away from God. They live in their egos, not humbling themselves to God. Living righteously through learning wisdom by reading the word of God.

Do not fret, ask God for guidance in dealing with the obnoxious personalities of the world. He will give you what you need if you pray to him. I call them SDs for those Dwelling on the Surface of life, not venturing deeper into emotions, love, compassion and all of God’s virtues. Be patient, the obnoxious will find their way back to God’s love. God already knows the outcome. We have to Trust God in that he knows what he’s doing. In God’s time frame, not our time frame.

My experience with obnoxious personalities is that they were injured somehow in early childhood. Whether that injury was physical or just their egos getting carried away with them when they were children. They trusted their egos instead of being taught and guided by their elders in how to trust in God’s love. Tolle explains how to become humble again. Tolle is Christian and hit rock bottom due to his pain. He prayed to God for answers and put the words down on paper. He said the book was written years ago, he just wrote the words down on paper and that it was God that guided him. Tolle’s book is “A New Earth”. You can listen to him on Oprah.com Log in, give yourself a password and download him detailing his 10 chapters. ALL FREE. Oprah is leaving his work on her site because she knows every one needs to hear this man and how he explains for us to go silent, be still, learn how to be humble again. Then after that to really understand how to read your Bible.

Give yourself time and pamper yourself while you’re getting through this journey. It’s only a lesson from God.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 7:24pm

Thanks OXdrover. You are right. I can’t/won’t let it go because I am still depending on another for my happiness. I just felt sad today as no one invited me anywhere, well, a stranger did but he was a red flagger and I didn’t want to go! But I do realize when I am saner, that the N took me away from me. He fulfilled what I was to afraid to or apathetic or incapable of doing for myself.

He took me away from myself so I didn’t have to look at my failures, disappointments and I could deviate from and concentrate on this sudden new and wonderful life he plopped before me on a silver platter (that turned out to be a sword, the web of deceipt). It’s been more than a year, maybe that’s the shame, but thanks. You are right right right. I didn’t realize how wonderful this blog was until right now. Sometimes you just can’t snap out of yourself and see the light, but a stranger, or rather a comrade, can. So I thank you for your kindess.

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 7:25pm

eyesopened says:

Hi Sunny

I’ll play. Here’s my list:

1. I’m kind, light-hearted, sensitive, empathetic, very fair and understanding
2. I’m not stingy with compliments and encouragement
3. I’m joyful. There was that time after the S experience where I lost my joy which was the most hopeless feeling but finally got it back.
4. I stick up for underdogs with a vengeance
5. I love my own dogs (and pets)
like crazy…and yours and everyone else’s…and farm animals and stray animals and wild animals and any other kind…and stand up for all of them, too. Animal cruelty is unbearable to me.
6. I have a mischievous sense of humor and use it carefully but even when things are tense
7. Will go out of my way to stop the car to help an injured animal or stranded motorist
8. I’m pretty but not vain
9. I’m not high maintenance at all, but I’m now value myself more
10. I like that I took this hard path of delving into my “issues” revealed after the S experience because it’s made me a fuller person. It’s been worth it.
11. I like my cute car
12. I love my sister and have more clarity now about my parents behavior, how it impacted my understanding and tolerance of how things are and am less affected by it today
13. I now know sociopaths exist and are pervasive in society; they’re not just a few extreme dangerous men living behind jail walls. That’s a helpful tool for me.
14. I love to bake and garden …and then share it all with friends and my church peeps
15. I’m smarter than I was even a year ago and more patient
16. I’m a good friend and a more boundary-defined one
17. I’m very rarely envious and always supportive of others successes…ok, sometimes not instantly, but after I think about it.
18. I’m discreet and trustworthy; if I agree to keep a secret or promise, I’ll do it no matter what.
19. I’m hardworking, responsible and have been known to check Lovefraud in the middle of the day when I need a break just to keep in good mental shape
20. I like my longer hair now! It’s really cute. So is my favorite cowboy hat that I wear at the ranch when I go riding.
Bonus response: If there’s one thing I’m glad happened as a result of the S, is that I have the security and joy of really finding God this time. That was a big reward.

Sunny, sorry you’re having a bad day. Just think, when you wake up tomorrow, it won’t have the same impact and next July 4, it’ll be even easier.

I’ve found that when I’ve had such strong associative memories with locations or holidays, if I go out and deliberately overlay them with my own new memories, the next time I visit that location or come upon that occasion, even though my mind might be tweaked, my newer memories are stronger.

When the old memories come up, replace them with the newer one and each time, it’ll get easier. It never seems that it will when you first start doing it, but I think it’s like muscle memory; the more you do it, the more natural it becomes.

Happy independence day from the old memories!

Friday, 4 July 2008 @ 11:11pm

Well Eyesopened, you sound like a very nice person. I ditto on the animals and bet lots of us, because we are compassionate perhaps fell in the path of an S. But you gals spurned me on! I got out of the house, took a walk around a lovely lake with my doggie and realized how beautiful my life can be. Yes, I too grew more to know GOD from the bad experience. And wouldn’t you know it I met a group of strangers who invited me to watch the fireworks with them. I forgot all about my sadness, because of writing today and knowing someone cares. God will take of us and we will grow stronger each day. And I guess that is our blessing despite any suffering because the S will never grow and never know the serenity that can come as a gift from places we weren’t even looking. Thank you all for your helpful comfort. From far aways lands it means a lot to this woman! Peace.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 12:14am

Sunny
That’s fabulous that your brave steps fortuitously led you to new Independence Day memories…congratulations for having the spirit to do it.

I agree with you about God…what a gift.

I’m glad you had a good night!

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 12:35am

The lists are great. We’re all OK. We just have to remember all the good that we are. I think God is using us to heal those that have walled themselves off from his Love. I think we are given this new test by God, pushing all our loving qualities further aka God is stretching us to be the best that we can be. Interesting test, if you want my opinion. God knows that he needs our help to spread his love further and faster throughout the world. Now is the time for us to extend his love to every one, every where. How? Ask God and he will guide you. How do you ask God? By praying to God and expressing your love for him and that you understand that he has plans for you. Everyone already started this by logging on to this site and helping everyone else. If we can do this for ourselves, guess what we can do for others that have never logged on to this site?

Peace and love and all God’s virtues to every one.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 4:06am

Beverly says:

Dearest Wini, I just love your posting – the higher view. When we rise ‘above’ it all another context appears. When I was going with the Narcissist man, I bought an album (I am a HUGE MUSIC LOVER) which marked out the death of the relationship, it was called ‘Nothing Lasts – But Nothing is Lost’. Within the context of Gods Love – nothing is lost. xxx

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 4:21am

Dear Beverly:

I do believe that God has anointed us as his Angels down on earth. Going NOW and into the future with this knew wisdom of triumphing through what those standing furthest away from God have tried to accomplish, but could not. Victory due to God’s love. Realizing that God works in mysterious ways. Carrying God’s LOVE forward and understanding this lesson of LOVE and blessing all around us with God’s LOVE.

Peace and God’s virtues to you.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 5:36am

Glinda says:

20 Things About Me:

1) I am funny; sometimes hilarious;
2) I am kind;
3) I am steadfast and loyal;
4) I am true to my word;
5) If I am wrong, I apologize and accept responsibility;
6) I’m a good mom to my 3;
7) I’m a good listener, good friend;
I am logical and analytical;
9) I am honest and direct- I try to temper the direct;
10) I’m creative and crafty (scissors/paper/glue crafty, not devious crafty );
11) I like to take pictures, lots of pictures;
12) I don’t know where my boundaries are- but I am looking for them. If you see them, let me know. I’ll send you a SASE so you can mail them to me;
13) I have chosen not to date, long term, so I can focus on my children. They’ve been hurt by the s too;
14) I’m learning to save money (one CANNOT have a savings acct with a s in the house!), I now have savings accts for myself and each of the kids;
15) I am debt-free from the s and the divorce- my credit is still in shambles, but that will heal itself in time, kind of like me;
16) I have a great career that began in an entry-level position;
17) I support myself and my children with no financial assistance, this is one place that the power of money is GOOD. I do not have to depend on the s, his family, or society to house and feed my children- therefore, I answer to no one and I have no hoops to jump through;
18) I’m generous- time, money, and affection- but not to the point that I empty myself;
19) I’m taking my kids to the beach next month;
20) I can think about other things besides the s and the chaos he brought to my life- it’s no longer monopolizes my every thought.

I’ve been feeling blah and bored lately. Hope you ladies don’t mind me hopping on the “I ROCK” bandwagon. I feel a little better, thank you. Have a lovely Saturday

ps- Sunny- the xs’s family were much like you described. I was wonderful until I called them on their lies, enabling, and hypocrisy. The xs’s mother owns a Christian Bookstore but paid off drug dealers and other assorted victim’s to cover up her son’s crimes and sins. She uses her position at church in the community to lie and defraud for her s son all the while pretending to be helpless and boo hoo hoo “woe is me.” The s would never have gotten to be what he is without them.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 8:39am

Beverly

Funny thing about music. I always felt that something was off-kilter when I was with the S but I couldn’t figure it out. There were certain songs, though I can’t remember then now, that would pop-up like billboards (over any other songs I would hear) in my life.

They weren’t songs I really ever paid more attention to before even though I had heard them but during that time, I really felt them, the impact of their words. They viscerally stung when I heard them and they stopped my heart. I didn’t want to hear the words, they were so uncomfortable. Now I know why.

Here are they lyrics of the one I remember most – “I can’t make you love me” from Bonnie Raitt

Turn down the lights, turn down the bed
Turn down these voices inside my head
Lay down with me, tell me no lies
Just hold me close, don’t patronize – don’t patronize me

CHORUS: Cause I can’t make you love me if you don’t
You can’t make your heart feel something it won’t
Here in the dark, in these final hours
I will lay down my heart and I’ll feel the power
But you won’t, no you won’t
‘Cause I can’t make you love me, if you don’t

I’ll close my eyes, then I won’t see
The love you don’t feel when you’re holding me
Morning will come and I’ll do what’s right
Just give me till then to give up this fight
And I will give up this fight

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 10:25am

Dearest Wini – I just got there!!! I saw it like we are light bodies through our compassion and service and whom God is spreading his essence through to troubled members of humanity?? Is that what you imply?

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 10:28am

oops…I should have proofread. Just to save you from struggling to figure out the (or to confirm your brilliant deciphering!)

First line, second paragraph should read

“They weren’t songs I really ever paid attention to, even though I had heard them ”

ok…back to the posts.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 10:29am

Ok, I read eyesopened & Glinda’s “I ROCK” lists, and I just want to say…..are you ladies ME?…haha.

You totally described me in your lists! Isn’t that wonderfully bizarre how we are all so similar in personality and more important, character? Wow!

We read each other’s descriptions of the PDIs, and exclaim…”were we with the same flippin man?! Because he sounds just like your x bf or husband!”

The comparisons are staggering to me. More valid proof of how we are all connected to each other on every level.

Thanks, ladies, for sharing your innate, intrinsic beauty with me. And for allowing me to see how “I ROCK” also. **hug**

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 12:07pm

I know, it’s uncanny. I’ve often thought we could all fill out a questionnaire/matrix not only the S/P/N’s whatever but a separate one forthe victims here and just see how many checkmarks fill our same boxes.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 12:12pm

areyoukiddingme says:

Well ladies it is quite refeshing to see such incredible honesty, the pain the happieness and the unsure.

I think I have felt all of these a million times in the last 6 months. What where when why.

I have a very strong faith today that allows me to not firget the past as we can never forget but used what we experienced to help others.

It is so helpful for others to understand the true hurt of regection and betrayel, where you thought your life was one thing and was completely another.

I like the ” I ROCK” that is great! I think Im going to use that everyday because I bet we all do and thats how mving forward I will only accept others that are worthy of me

I am now 51 and just figuring it out?

GOD has a plan and I am asking for his guidance everyday a few times acutally.

I have been feeling lonely to, not for him at all but just to be held well knowing that I need a lot more time to heal before I go there…right now its about me and GOD.

And listening to all of you wise women.

GOD BLESS

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 1:29pm

There is a scripture that says that “all things work together for GOOD to those that love the Lord” (can’t remember the chapter and verse right now) but I truly believe that!

The thing about our experiences is that they were all so painful, BUT from the pain we experienced growth. We turned the “Bad” into “the good.”

There is a quotation I remember vaguely that says that “anyone who fails to get a lesson out of failure misses a great opportunity.”

We “failed” in our attempts at relationships with the Ps, because we were trying to move the “immoveable object” and there was NO possibility of “success” in what we were trying to do with the Ps….but, we took the lesson from that, in how to determine in the future which tasks are “impossible.”

While all things are possible with God, that doesn’t mean that all things are “possible” with us, there is NO WAY we can “fix” the person who doesn’t want to be fixed.

What we CAN FIX, however, is ourselves so that we never again become vulnerable to the psychopaths of this world. We can’t avoid them unless we move to Mars, but we don’t have to associate with them.

The Apostle Paul in his letter to the Corinthians (I Cor 5: 9-13) tells the Christians that they should “turn away” from people who pretend to be Christians but are railers, abusers, fornicators, lovers of self, covetous, extortioners, drunkards, “with such an one no not to eat.” “Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

The definition of “railer” in Webster’s is “to revile or scold in harsh, insolent or abusive language.” Now if that doesn’t describe a psychopath or narcissist, I don’t know what would!

I felt very guilty for a long time in No Contact with my mother. But she falls well under the definition of “railer” while pretending, at least to the outside community and her church friends to be a “loving Christian.” But having seen the face without the mask, knowing that she falls under the definition of liar and railer, I realize that NO CONTACT, even though she is my biological mother is not only the WISE thing, but also sanctioned by God’s advice, by God’s command, “no not to eat”—have no social contact with these people.

There are so many examples in the Bible of Narcissists and Psychopaths, and reading these stories in a different “vision” than what I have always read these stories is very liberating to me. Realizing that even God doesn’t demand that we allow others to abuse us, that we restore “trust” along with “forgiveness” (getting the bitterness out of our hearts toward them) is so liberating to me that I want to sing and dance and shout for joy.

It still hurts, to realize that those that you loved, trusted, and cared for were evil iintentioned toward you. That the man you had children with cares not for you or them, that the person who gave birth to you has no “natural affection” for you, would use and abuse you, or that your sibling or friend never cared about you, would use and abuse you, and enjoy seeing your pain, still hurts, but the hurt will never be permanent if we process it, grieve over the “loss” of our perceptions that these people loved us, and realize EMOTIONALLY as well as logically that the relationship, whatever it was, was always one sided. That we gave and they took, but did not reciprocate our love.

Finding validation in ourselves, and in the wise words of our religious faith–whatever faith that is–helps us to grow emotionally, spiritually, psychologically and in every other way that makes us better humans. I have read a great deal of the sacred writings of several religions and they all pretty much say the same thing about how we should behave and how we should deal with others. What kind of people we should be, how to direct our moral compasses to improve our own sprits and make our internal lives better, are included in every writing I have read.

The philosophers of all times pretty much mirrored what we would like to become, to put away the angers and malices, and the bitterness from ourselves so that we can come to peace, both here on this earth and in the beyond. While the “wisdom” of this world may say that money, power, position and status may bring “happiness” we KNOW that is NOT the case. The peaceful heart is HAPPY, the kind heart is happy, the good heart is happy. The psychopath tries to take that away from us because they can NEVER acheive that peace. They can’t take it away unless WE LET THEM, unless we give them the power to do so.

Taking back our POWER is what it is all about. Making ourselves the kind of people we want to be is within our POWER, but we have to realize that all peace, and all happiness comes from WITHIN US not from something external. No person can make us happy, but us, and even then happiness is a by-product of a peaceful soul.

Working toward that healing and that peace is my life now, and I realize it is a journey not a destination. I also realize that there will be pot holes, and falls on the journey, but I will keep on getting up, keep on putting one foot in front of the other toward my life-long goal of PEACE.

Yesterday my son D and I were talkinga bout how peaceful life is for us now, without crisis of any kind at present, internal or external. We are again enjoying life, and only a couple of weeks ago, I had hit a pot hole with mother, and skinned my knee, but now having overcome that fall, I feel better and stronger than I have in quite a while. Then I got the call that said son C was on his way home for a suprise visit! What a wonderful suprise (I wasn’t expecting him til Labor Day) Since he is on the “night shift” at work we sat up until the wee hours of the morning just talking and enjoying each other’s company, renewed love and trust in each other, and it did me so much good to see his smiling face, no lines or wrinkles or stress expressed in it, and to make silly jokes and recall silly times when he was a kid, and to have him reaffirm his love and trust for me and me for him. It just “don’t get no better than that!” Peace to all.

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 2:16pm

Dear OxDrover:

My ex never showed any cracks. I didn’t know he was a sleaze until months after he left (business trip). It was by accident that I learned what he really was. Not anything he did. He always acted the best friend, perfect gentlemen, would walk out during an argument, not argue, have a conversation after I calmed down, cooked, clean, did laundry, worked on the car, took the garbage out, got along with my friends and family. Never showed the true self. To this day, we have never talked about it. I found out at the end of November. December, January, February, we were still talking even though we broke up. I guess his marrying someone else was a good clue. He must have married her in the Fall and still was talking marriage with me in November before the 2nd shoe fell. So, as I was contacted our local PD and the FBI, and the credit bureaus, along with going into court to clear up what he did on my credit cards, canceling my bank account, finding out the foreclosure on my house – the attorney I hired was in on the con with my ex, that house in long gone and on my credit history (Thanks Ex psycho). To this day, we never talked. When I did talk with his dad and told him everything … how his son took me to the cleaners … his dad said “He’s proud of his son and that I had to move on because he’s married now”. So I told his dad, well the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Then I hung the phone up.

Peace everyone. I have to take some deep breaths. I don’t think all of them were ever abused. I think they consciously decide that everyone is a game to them that they are the Victor for whatever their M.O. is?

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 2:59pm

Dear JSmith, I wonder what the boxes for all of us would be, but I am sure a box called ‘faith’ would get a fair number of ticks, as also the box marked ‘those working in caring professions’!!

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 5:16pm

henry says:

Hello Gang– I have read all these good and inspiring post. I did have a good forth of July with my kid’s and grandkid’s, spent sometime with a friend, kept myself busy, and realize that I felt more relaxed than I had in a very long time. I don’t have that feelin like my skin is crawling from the inside. But I still have this GREAT sense of loss. I wonder why, well actually I do know why this just takes the life right of us. Eyes Opened— I like your (list) in the above post. Number 3 You have found your joy, when after your experience with the P you didn’t have it and it was the most hopeless feeling in the world. I am trying real hard to find my joy, it’s kinda like I have all these good wonderful reasons to feel joy, but why can’t I? And you encourage me because you say now you do feel joy!!!! Thanks And your number 10 on your list, that you are a better person because of the P and delving into your issues has made you a better person… Yeah I am a better person, I have learned alot, have had a deeper sense of my spirituality am beginning to reconnect with nature and life. But like all of you here I still have trigger’s that send me spiraling down. OK this is what I miss about the illusion. It was like wow, I have really met someone that like’s the same things I like, want’s to do thing’s with me, someone that is interested in my simple little life and want’s to be a part of it! Someone that has accepted me just for who I am! someone that say’s they want to spend the rest of their life with me. It was like I hit the lottery I was never going to be alone again…Well we all know how that was him mirroring me and becoming me. It went down hill fast and was a rollercoaster ride of emotion’s. I knew he was bad for me, I figured out real quick he was a pathalogical lier. It took almost losing my health and maybe my life to accept that whatever was wrong, whoever was to blame, that this just has to end. And after the fact I learned that he is a (P) in every sense of the word. There was nothing that I could do to save us or him but I have to save me. Yeah I miss that illusion. But that illusion was my fantasy and he played right into it. So to be (that) needy of finding my fantasy in an illusion. Well duh!~!!! So yes we are all working on ourselves, learning to love our own company, our pets (Harley-Crickit-Posey-Miss Puss), love our family’s and find peace with ourselve’s and our own spiritual awareness. Because for me living an illusive life full of fantasy is for movies and fairytale’s. Peace and happiness has to come from within, today and tomorrow and the rest of my life I will look for peace and happiness in all the good thing’s the universe put’s here before me. And love all the good thing’s and the good people that are out there, they are everywhere. A big HUG to all my love fraud peeps……!

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 8:02pm

Henry, I am so glad that things are going so much better for you! It won’t be an “over night” thing, but you are on your way to healing.

Your own good power will rise up and help you continue to be strong and to grow.

It makes me so happy to see the growth you have shown in the past few weeks—it really does just amaze me to see people go from DOWN to starting up UP UP. Big hugs to you Henry! Keep on growing!

Saturday, 5 July 2008 @ 10:24pm

Dear Henry:

Read what I wrote to James to find out my theory. It’s when we break down the lies versus truth is when the pain ceases. If you have another theory. Post it. Everyone should post their theories about what is going on with these people of the lie. Then we’ll all break all our sagas down. Step by step to see if we can get past the pain for everyone.

Peace to your heart and soul. We’ll all get through this, I promise you (and I keep my promises). I say what I mean and mean what I say. Taught to me by my DAD.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:06am

My Dearest Free – Some of us want to take the opportunities dealt with those we took up with who had personality disorder, to clear ourselves, to unload the baggage that lead us to this path. Remembering spiritually that everything that happens is right, somehow we have to try and get our hearts and minds around the distortion between what we fixated ourselves on and what was delivered! One of the biggest things for me, was to actually realise and SEE that this subculture of personality exists and once I was switched onto that SEEING, I began to see myself differently. Dear Free, that is one of the BIG things they do – they suck on your life energy until you are so weak to even care about yourself – that is their biggest crime – but dearest Free it is only an illusion, an illusion they created for their own self gratification. (((huge hugs to your Free)))

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:35am

Free, you have come here, because like the rest of us, you want to be Free, and by us all supporting each other, reading, conversing and learning, do we walk the path of knowledge, as Wini, says, knowledge is the path to Freedom. It is how we employ that knowledge, or not, which is important. (((hugs)))

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:37am

Dear Free:

When you unravel all the lies and your heart and soul know you know have the truth is when you can go on and live your life to it’s fullest. At least, that’s my theory. I’m the type of person that keeps flipping that rock over in my hand, around and around … I look at it. I put the rock down, pick it up again, flip it this way, flip it that way, smell it, taste it, put my ear to it. Turn it over and over again, put it down … live my life for a while … then something brings me back to that same rock. So I start all over again,flipping the rock over and over in my hands. Looking at this rock from every angle. Only when it feels right in my heart and soul and makes sense to my mind that it is the truth. Do I put the rock down and move on. Hey, that’s just me.

I was aware at one point in the relationship, where it felt like a life and death situation, and I could feel that it was almost like a battle of good versus evil and that I would be the one who would die. This realisation caused me to ‘jump ship’, because when I projected what I would be like with him a few down the line, I didnt like what I saw!

In all abusive relationships, there is often the element of one partner dominating and subjugating their partner to their gain and their partner’s loss, whatever the methods they employ to do that.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:44am

I agree Wini, only when the time is right to completely start moving on. If there is no moving on, there is still knowledge to be sought, and I am all for being the big digger!!

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:47am

I was forced to make a choice – my life or his? It had to be mine and that is why I am here at Love Fraud’s swan sanctuary for those with broken wings.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:54am

Beverly, we need to ask Donna to give us a blank slate site for deducting all our theories on this. Everyone working together, putting our minds and hearts and souls into figuring out the lies and coming to a conclusion theory. Because I don’t know about everyone else, I get bounced from one site to the other, missing each other’s posts etc. Donna should also put a link up that has our names as we post in of waiting messages for us because if you look how the side posting is, as more write in, a response that was waiting for you goes by, by into whatever site we originally posted it in. Hey, it’s a pet peeve, I used to program. We need a general site so everyone can log in and see what everyone else is adding to the discussion.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:56am

Wini, I understand where you are heading by your posts, to form a collective for exploring the TRUTH. I agree that I often miss posts or I post under the wrong heading and if I havent been on the site for a few days, it is hard to catch up on all the postings. A general forum area sounds a good idea to lead everyone towards healing.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 5:02am

Beverly:

Good that you made that conclusion, because they certainly didn’t care about us. My ex left me as road kill. Took all my money, my appliances, destroyed my possession, had my retirement home (that he lived in) foreclosed, yeah that went on my credit history, not his, money that I lent him went to him, him, him and his other fiancee (who I talked with and told me repeatedly that she was just a room mate). Anyway, spent my money on himself than what is was suppose to be for, what we agreed on (e.g. paying all his back and future child support payments to his ex-wife and the mother of his 2 daughters). Then what in the world is wrong with his ex wife for not pulling me to the side and having a heart to heart. I wanted to talk with her and today, the woman has never had a conversation with me. It was through her investigator and her attorney that she knows what he did to me after he left her. Unbelievable what a cyclone hurricane this guy is in how he lives his life. With money he stole from my bank account, he and his new wife (she sold her condo) and they bought a new house. His new wife thinking his finances are legit from a decent guy … in reality he stole his two investors money ($125,000.00 each) and my money (years after the foreclosure) to the tune of propably $60,000 -$70,000.00. Kissed me goodbye (with my appliances in his 5th wheel and my pet bird) and told me he’d be back in September (he left May 1, 2006). I just didn’t know to ask, which September in which year. Got married to her sometime in the fall of 2006, and he’s still telling me he loves me and when this deal (that he was supposedly working on in Texas) comes through, then will marry. And the rest is history. This week, I’m sending in my letter of complaint to the Georgia Bar association about the sleazoid attorney I hired to stop the foreclosure, to find out, it was all a lie, this attorney took my money to represent my ex in his illegal activity he got caught in down in GA. Everything my ex told me was a lie from the day he met me. 8 years of living his lies. And here I am, starting over from square one. Figuring out one lie after another. Resolving what I can through the courts, dumping his responsibility back on his plate (wait until he finds out what all the states that he did his nonsense in have waiting for him when they finally rope him in). Idiot. If he lived his life righteously (following God’s word) none of this craziness would exist. Nuts. The courts should assign them all in romper room … not call it prison. Romper room for the spiritually stunted. Then we an all view them like the pee-wee hermans that they are.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 5:14am

I re-read some of your posts Wini, and I took in your story, and how involved and painful it was.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 5:22am

I wanted to comment on one of your posts. About the male and female energy in the form of parents in the life of a child. I also understand that a primary part of the male’s role is to provide a ‘bridge’ to the outside world, the mother forming the ‘inner’ world. If any part of this process is disrupted in childhood, one then travels down a different path.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 5:27am

I read that book 20+ years ago during the breakup with my first roller coaster ride. Remember, what I write is my opinion. Not facts concluded by research. What I know as the truth. Yes, there is more to the positive (male)/negative (female) polarities. That is the ideal model. Now human beings … that’s another story. All of us have to figure out our truths as we know truth. I know that my father loved my mother. My father came from unconditional love all the time with whoever he was dealing with. My mom was loving but could and would play innocent self centered games. Nothing major … just a mom who knew how to push buttons to get what she wanted. I’d say high 90s my mom was dealing from love when she did or said anything to anyone. With that knowledge, I then deduct situations from how much information I know is fact versus what is fiction. Fact, I have 3 other siblings and I’m the youngest. They too, play the push the button games to get what they want. They all can be loving and there for you … and then there’s the other side that comes into play … that is there listing in the hierachy of our family. Oldest thinks she’s the boss of everyone (her birth right). Doesn’t fly with me … so a lot of heated debates in our family regarding this viewpoint. My brother is the second oldest – he’s cool, basically truthful and for the most part stays away from heated discussions in the family … unless he has something to say. My middle sister … has a heart of gold, will give you the shirt off her back … but needs to pick up the Bible and read it some day. She’s another one that doesn’t investigate on her own. Hears something that sounds good to her and she goes with it.

What I’m saying is that all our discussions are coming from our truth as we know it.

As for me, I analyze every thing (and have been a people watcher all my life) until it sits right with me. I have a lot of things still up in the air, waffling because it isn’t truth to me yet. All I know is that I speak my truth as I see it. It comes from my heart and soul. I don’t want anything from any one except to spend time with people and enjoy their company and pick their brains, what they are all about. I hope that I am a positive influence to those who know me. I leave people whole or better off. Those that understand me and appreciate me are still in my life. Those that aren’t, aren’t for whatever reason that they know.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 10:00am

Dear Free,

When do I let go of wanting to know about psychopaths? I don’t know, I’m not there yet. BUT, and for me this is a BIG “but”—I FEEL that knowledge protects me. Maybe if I had been bitten by a certain kind of snake I would study everything about their habits, habitat, etc. until I was an “expert” on that kind of snake. But more and more I am concentrating on ME and the things I want to do to feel confident within myself.

I’m learning to set boundaries!!! At first it was very nerve wracking and I was more unsure of myself, now I am more sure of myself, more EMOTIONALLY sure of my RIGHT to do so, and that my boundaries are reasonable and just. So my self confidence is increasing in that aspect.

In many ways I am having to re-program my own thinking about some basic things–ways of looking at the world, ways of looking at myself, goals, desires, the whole big global picture of my life.

The side effects though are that I am proud of my self for my acheivements and successes, not beating myself up over times I back slide, but enjoying a day by day progress. Seeing myself grow! Just as I enjoyed watching my children grow and learn language, learn to walk, etc. I am watching myself grow as well and finding joy and pleasure in my accomplishements of new tasks and scaling new heights.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 10:18am

Wini…. My Therory about (P”s) is almost identical to everyone else here, with some exception’s. He was not someone I dated or had any kind of romance with. He lived 5 miles from me with another guy, they had been together 6 years. I had met (mike) at the corner store, we both had seen the other before, and now realized we lived way out here in the stick’s but close, so I gave him my number and he would call and come by occasionally. Sometimes he would just show up without calling. He told me stories of how horroble his bf was, how the bf treated him so bad and the bf cheated and lied. But when the bf called him on the cell phone I heard him Lie to the bf about where (HE) was. I think they were both phycopaths living in the same cage. Well Mike was never really interested in me until he learned where I lived and i was convient when he was bored. Well one nite at midnite he knocked on the door, his bf had kicked him out and he walked 5 miles to ask to not call him on his cell phone because he didnt want his bf to find out about me (the bf had kept the cell and the truck) so Mike was basically homeless and pitifull. I said well u don’t have to go back to that you can stay here untill you get something worked out. The next thing I know I am driving him to work and back and doing everything I can to help him. And I started likeing the company and companionship. After driving him to work for 6 months I insist he get a car. So I signed on a loan but after the fact he tells me he has no drivers licence, well to make this short and simple. My therory is, a HOMELESS PHYSCOPATH saw me as an opportunity to get out of his present situation. And that is what I was to him, an opportunity to better his situation. Yeah he said all the right things and the first few weeks did all the right things. But he is basically a low life physcopath, that is the way he survive’s. He has no longterm goals no respect, no honesty, and he cant be trusted or believed at all. He met his new (victim) on my computer. I think he will continue this behavour untill he is killed or dies from not taking care of his self. and yes I think god or the universe has thumped me on the head and said hey you need to clean up your life and take a different approach because if I don’t I am going to be used up and left behind. So this is a life lesson, I am dealing with it. I am embarrased and ashamed, one friend of mine said I was basicaly paying for sex with him. I didnt see it that way, he gave me just enuff money too keep me appeased. He cheated on me constantly and I became a mad person trying to catch him and when I did he convinced me I was the one cheating. Too sum it up, they have no soul. They all have to be related to Satan, because evil was like a cloud over Mike, I felt fear even when he was in my arm’s. Like some of you here I still feel like I miss him, but I think that is satan trying to pull us back in, keep us from moving on, satan want’s us to be stagnant. I am moving forward ever so slowing and I will never look back on my past the same way again. I am puting together a better Henry—because I don’t want God to thump me on the head again it hurt’s too much……………….

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 2:24pm

AND I am dealing or delving into issue’s that Lovefraud cant help me with. I am gay, a father, a grandfather, I do not (fit) into mainstream life. I was raised in a very toxic dysfuntional family. And even tho I believe being gay is not by choice but by genetic’s and inviroment. I think I and alot of men like me are sexually dysfuntional. Society tell’s me I am not right. Religion tell’s me I am not right. I have to keep my identity low key,because I live in a world where I could be killed just because I am me. So this is why the relationship with the (P) was so attractive to me. Why I bent myself out of shape to make it work, held on to fear and evil so desperatly. So now I am back to my reality. I will more than likely live alone. Not have that special somebody to grow old with. But I want to except that and be the best I can be due to my reality. I want to stop looking for it, I want to start living. I am fighting lonliness and isolation in ways that most of you don’t understand. I think it is very important for (ME) to find a greater sense of self and acept the card’s I was dealt with and be ever so greatfull for the love I do recieve.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 3:18pm

Dear Henry,

You have hit on the thing that many, especially the “low lifes” psychopaths, they play the pity-ploy to get others to “rescue” them from someone who is “persecuting” them.

Have you had a talk with his X-BF? I bet you would find that the X-BF’s story is just about like yours, that Mike treated him the same way. I bet the X-BF is just as much a victim of Mike as you were.

The patterns of their behavior, the pity ploy works sometimes, and for a WHILE. It doesn’t work forever, because they keep oon looking for another victim, more excitement, and they are never “true” to the person who is rescuing them.

We unwittingly become their “enablers” by trying to be “nice guys” and “help them out”—-it is a fine line in “helping” someone and giving them an opportunity, and enabling them. Many people are very adept at going from one “helper” to the next, ripping them off right and left. They get themselves in such a low state–no job, no car, no place to live, etc. that they are in a position that it is VERY difficult for some one to dig themselves out of such a hole without “help”—-but, I always ASK MYSELF NOW, how did they get there? What did they do that brought them to the stage they are homeless, jobless, car-less, broke etc.?

At one time I was pretty financially low, and due to the divorce from hell (my x was mentally ill) and in pretty sad straights, but I managed to pull myself up by my own boot straps with a kid on each hip.

I don’t like to “classify” or “label” people, but you know here in the South we have a label that just about fits people like your X, “poor white trash”—they are poor because they mooch off others, make no provision to help themselves, and they behave in “trashy” ways, have no respect for themselves, no pride in themselves, are always blaming their problems on others, and behaving irresponsbily. They are not trash because they are poor, they are poor because they are trash. There are plenty of people I know who are poor, and NOT TRASH, and plenty of people I know who are rich and ARE TRASH. If you were to buy them a brand new house, a brand new car, and get them a job making $100,000 a year, they would be dead broke and on the street in a year! The house would be a hovel, dirty and broken, the car wouldn’t run because it had no gas and two fenders were torn off. You can’t help these people because they will NOT HELP THEMSELVES.

My son C came home this weekend, and in our talks he mentioned that his X-step daughter, who has no home, mooches with her meth-head BF off her cousins, had TRIED TO GET PREGNANT and succeeded, and was DEVESTATED that she lost the baby at 8 weeks—plus the fact that she has a 50/50 chance of carrying the defective gene that would make her sons be born with muscular dystrophy just like her brother was, who lived a painful life and died a horrible and painful death which she witnessed. She won’t work “it’s boring”–and she depends on others to support her. Can we say TRASH? Of course I can look at her mother and realize that his X-step daughter didn’t fall far from her mother’s “tree” and is also probably personality disordered. My son, thank goodness, is wise enough to not try to “help” this girl because she doesn’t want “help” she wants someone else to be responsible for meeting her basic needs without any effort on her part. My son cares for this girl, but at the same time, he is realistic about knowing that trying to “help her” is CASTING PEARLS BEFORE SWINE as the Bible says.

There are so many good stories in the Bible representing how we must deal with Psychopaths. Another one that is good is the story about “washing a sow” (female pig) and that it is futile to wash her as as soon as she gets a chance she will return to her mire and be as dirty as before she was washed.

I am definitely NOT against helping people, but I will do my best NEVER to enable another person as long as I live. I am not going to assume responsibility for another person who is able to assume responsibility for themselves. It is a lose/lose situation to think we can do it.

I’m glad to see you making progress Henry, and in your posts I know that you are a kind and caring person, and Mike took advantage of that, but you will never again be so vulnerable to “trash” again. (((hugs))))

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 3:25pm

stillsortingitout says:

Hi, I’m a new blogger too, and I can totally relate to how Sunny is feeling. The 4th did a number on me, too. I thought I was fine, it’s been almost a year since I left my x, and most thoughts I’d had about him since then were more along the lines of “I should have known better” or “I got myself into that situation, lesson learned”. I was with him for 6 years. When I entered into the relationship my self esteem was seriously low ( I’m sure that’s something everyone can relate too! They target that immediately!). The weird thing is, I recognized that he was all wrong for me from the beginning, but I had recently lost my social network so it seemed better to have a few dates with someone who wasn’t perfect than to sit home alone.

Well, that developed into a 6 year relationship with someone I never should have been with. Reading a lot of these threads sounds like a script from my life. I was his buffer because he wasn’t good in social situations. I lost friends because no one liked him. The more I protected him, the deeper I dug myself in. He mooched off me for many years, but luckily he never stole large amounts of money or assets. What he did steal was any shred of self-worth I had hung onto.

He owned his own construction business and toward the end it wasn’t doing well. Before I’d met him I was an interior designer. Then I changed careers and became an RN. Nursing is a steady job that always pays the bills, design can be transitory. We ended up working together designing and building a group of homes, all while I continued to also work fulltime as an RN. This was the beginning of the end.

One of his core beliefs was that the only way in todays society that couples can make it is if they work together. I put all I had into that project and it turned out amazing. He did pay me for my work. However, his behavior became more and more bizarre. Nothing I did was a good choice in his mind, untill the final project materialized and the public raved about it. He angrily questioned every choice, every decision. If I wasn’t spending all my free time working on the construction projects I didn’t care. When I started trying to do what he wanted, I chose the wrong aspects to focus on. I ended up just waiting around to see what he wanted so he wouldn’t criticize me. Nothing was ever right. Then it became personal. With all the working and trying to please I wasn’t taking care of myself like I did before. He criticized my body, I was getting fat. I frantically tried to diet and exercise, then, you guessed it, I wasn’t focusing on work. Around and around.

He spent most of his time alone in his office “working”. From 7 till about 6 pm he was in there online, I honestly believed working on the business. It wasn’t till later I found out what everyone reading this has already guessed. He was on porn sites, dating sites, and making myspace pages. He adamantly insisted the myspace page was to “network” and bring in additional business. When I doubted him he became sulky and resentful. Like all these guys, he insisted I was too suspicious. If we were to have any relationship I had to trust him, he said, because “trust is the foundation of any relationship. Without trust there’s nothing” . One of his favorite mantras. What a joke!

He started screaming at my kids and trying to alienate them from me. During this time my health failed in lots of ways and I needed several surguries. He resented every weakness, every obligation where he wasn’t directly in the spotlight. I kept trying desperately to juggle everything and keep it all alfloat, but I couldn’t do enough.

What’s got to be obvious to everyone is that he gaslighted me. We were never married because we’d both been married before and he said ” the most real relationship is when both parties CHOOSE to be with each other on a daily basis”. My recourse was to type up a “relationship contract” that stated if either of us had doubts or wanted to leave the relationship we would discuss it or try counseling before doing anything behind each other’s back. We both signed it. I told him my greatest fear and concern was being deceived, because my ex-husband ( who was a much crueler sociopath) had done horrible damage to me that way. The contractor x was so understanding and sympathetic. Haha.

It ended. I left. I went on to briefly date another sociopath. I’m in counseling now. I want to understand why. I have the same “I Rock List” as so many of you have posted. I am a caretaker, but that’s who I am at my core. It’s not a bad trait, I do it for a living. The bad part is my lack of self-worth. I’ve learned in counseling that my parents ( a narcissist and and sociopath) raised me to be exactly what I am. I’m working on making better choices.

I found out on the 4th that the ex-contractor took a woman to Hawaii within days of me leaving. We had planned that trip together, and the tickets were already paid for. I know I had suspected it all along. I know it’s been over for 9 months now. Somehow the evidence of it staring me in the face was a slap that really rattled me. I never really grieved for that relationship. I knew I should be strong. My friends said I shouldn’t give that loser a second thought, so I tried to do just that.

The ex-contracter had also called just a few days prior. I guess my replacement was out of his life then. He was actually cying on the phone, and said “some events in his life caused him to realize that he’d hurt people, so he wanted to apologize”. I forgave him, but didn’t make any assurances that I’d see him.

Wow. It felt good to vent all that. Thanks for being a place to do that. Like my user name says, I guess I’m still trying to sort it all out. I don’t really talk to people about these things, people tend to pass judgement without really understanding. I just really feel lost lately, and it feels good to visit this “cyber group” of people who’ve been through the same thing.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 3:31pm

DEar Stillsorting,

Welcome to the “club”–but sorry you have the “qualifications” to “join”—LOL This is a healing place and sounds like you are already on the healing road. Again, welcome, and sorry you had to experience this painful relationship, but in the end, if we finally get there, it will be a valuable learning experience and hopefully render you not vulnerable to the next one.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 3:43pm

Still sorting,

Yes, welcome to the LoveFraud fellowship. Yet again another wonderful, good woman dealing with the pain & suffering of a predator. You also described my x PDIs implicitly.

If we only knew then what we know now…..

My X Music Man was terrible in social situations also. He seemed to expect me to cover territory that either left him subject to ridicule or he really didn’t trust or like people at all. I suspect both reasons. Can we say…HUGE RED FLAG?

So many red flags, in so little time that I think I actually began rationalizing his behavior, believing he was a tortured human being. Whatever. As Oxy reminds us repeatedly, many of us had less than stellar upbringings (as you spoke of yours living with a narcissist AND a sociopath..awful, just horrible) and preceeding destructive relationships with PDIs, yet we don’t ever inflict our own emotional pain on others.

They project and discard their own human weaknesses, their pain onto us in a selfish effort to rid themselves of what they consider beneath them, that they are above such ridiculous character flaws. They unlovingly bequeath us with their crapola because they’re emphatically incapable of being responsible, accountable adults.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. We are here to listen and support each other through the total mess they create for us.

stupid psychos…

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 4:42pm

Thanks Jane and Oxy,
I really appreciate the support. I agree about all the stupid red flags. Healthy people spot these right away. I’m not sure why, even when I think I’m looking out for flags, I don’t see them for what they are and get taken in. I was reading a couple other threads on this site about society changing and extoling the virtues of greed rather than love, and another thread about the voice of a psychopath. Listening to that guy Dimitri was so strange! Part of me was laughing at what a loser the guy was. Sadly, a small part of me was putting myself in Olga’s place and would secretly have felt great that someone considered me “elegant” and worth his valuable time!! This is the part I know I need to fix.

I also have existential-type thoughts about how society has changed. How the majority value steam-rolling people for profit and how things actually should be. If we see someone hurting or in need we who have empathy and compassion should be able to help them. Isn’t that the only way to change things? How can we do that, though? I’ve learned to look out for many traits, but I keep getting sucked in by the wrong people. I’m working on this in therapy. I have a wonderful psychologist. Her theory is that there are those of us on earth who are types of “angels” (her term, not mine!). We angels attract people who have many sick qualities that they need to fix. We angels show them the high road and invite them to come with us -because we see the potential beauty in them and want the best for them. But, for whatever reason or weakness in them, they choose to take the sick and easier path. They’ve lost an opportunity to change and grow. I like the thought of that, and try to hang on to it. Sometimes, though, the pain they inflict is just too much for me. Maybe that’s what a group like this is for. Fellowship and support. Thanks again!

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 5:57pm

Dear Henry: You should read the book “A New Earth”. I believe you would love this book. Especially, if you think you can’t get over something. You can log onto Oprah.com give yourself a password and download all Tolle’s taped detailed discussion about the 10 chapters of the book. It’s FREE. Just log in and start listening to what this man has to say. I highly recommend this author for anyone who wants to understand themselves better.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 6:55pm

Dear stillsortingitout: The reason WE attrack anti-social personalities is easy to answer. We are nice, decent, thoughtful, caring, loving, kind, etc. etc. The other women don’t, cause they are B – t – hes. Plain and simple. You can tell your therapist that.

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 6:59pm

Henry

I’ve read all your posts since you started posting and I think you’re very “right” and so do your boys and your grandkids, your dogs and Miss Puss…in fact, I bet you’re a hero to all of them.

I know you’re doing some soul-searching right now and I’m happy for you but I just wanted to say I think you’re pretty ok!

Sunday, 6 July 2008 @ 11:44pm

Free,

I crack myself up many times. It’s always been rather easy for me to giggle at me over something I said or did. Usually when I’ve just tripped on a little pebble and fallen in front of a huge audience…haha. My clumsiness keeps me humble, keeps me from being a vain brat!

And YES!! I applaud you, sister! I’ve been reflecting on my past experiences with negative, unfulfilling, just plain awful people in my life. All of them since ditching the Music Man from my life. As Donna wrote…”struck gold” is what I did. And I am so, so very grateful for discovering all that buried crap I felt for sure was finished, gone, dust. It wasn’t.

Now, I consider myself super rich after striking that ignored gold. Like you, I am a tough, smart woman today. I have altered quite a bit of my own behavior, attitudes and it’s been so beneficial for me. I actually challenge people now if they intrude on my boundaries, my space. I say..”No, don’t do that. It’s not right.” And, it works! They back off.

I was also a chronic apology giver even when I wasn’t the one who was at fault. Not anymore. Those days are done! I still apologize to my cats and my furniture when I bump into them, but noone sees this except the Lord, and He’s not telling…haha.

You’re so awesome, Free. I love reading your comments to me and to all the LoveFraud peeps. I can actually feel your positive vibrations in every word you write.

Now, let’s go get a carrot juice cocktail and tofu salad. Then we’ll swing by an animal shelter and love up on all the critters. Maybe take a few of the babies home with us….haha.

***BIG HUG****

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 3:29pm

Wini,

What’s wrong with being a b*tch? Feminists (which I consider myself one of a much maligned group of women) consider it a favorable description for empowered women. A term of grudging admiration. A compliment if you will. I agree wholeheartedly. When a predator can’t force you to comply to his selfish wants (like saying…”smile!”) he calls you a b*tch. So? Good! Stay away, sicko predator!

Anyway, b*tch is short for Babe In Total Control of Herself. So cool! So true!

I asked my best friend (x bf -5 yrs) if he would call me a b*tch, because it’s been YEARS since anyone has. I can’t remember when the last time I was referred to in that way. I think maybe I’ve been submitting to Kathy’s “cult of nice” and allowing too, too many people to stomp on me at their pleasure.

He was horrified! He said…”NO! I can’t call you that! Even if you think it’s a compliment!”..haha.

sigh….darn that man for being such a gentleman and not calling me a b*tch!…haha

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 4:10pm

Wow, FRee, great post!

I too do the “emotional autopsy” on relationships, or if they are still possibly viable sometimes “exploratory surgery” –LOL

The boundary setting with those close to me is still in its beginning stages, but having been okay with boundary setting with those not so close to me, I have some practice, and I AM getting better at setting boundaries for those close to me.

The thing we have to realize is that when we set a boundary, we have to be prepared for the END of that relationship if it is not respected. I think in the past I was never prepared to “end” a close relationshp for “something so small”—well the “somethings small” seem to pile up into a huge mountain if you dont’ “nip it in the bud” so to speak.

Abuse starts small, and if it is not “noticed” or “confronted” early on it will escalate and before long you don’t even notice but the relationshp has become very painful and the abuse obvious. How did that happen? When did that happen? SLOWLY is how and when.

Now I am finally prepared to let ANY RELATIONSHIP go if the person is abusive to me. I dont walk on egg shells around anyone. I try to be fair, honest, and open with those I love, but when I feel that I am having to “walk on egg shells” around them, I call a halt, take things into perspective (so I don’t just fly off the handle cause I’m having a bad day) but then I ACT on it in a cool, rational, and calm way. Setting a boundary and having set it, I am prepared to defend it. Even if it ends the relationship.

I can’t remember here who pointed it out to me, forgive my poor memory, but I was talking about setting boundaries over “small” things, and she pointed out that it isn’t the size of the boundary it is the DISRESPECT that they show, so no, you are not cutting someone out of your life for eating the last piece of cake, you are shutting them out for “showing disrespect”—and there is a big difference there.

Have a good day!!!!!

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 4:19pm

James says:

I would like to play the list game but mine comes with a twist…

I can love, you never will!
I can feel empathy for others, you refuse too or can’t!
I enjoy my emotions (feeling) you block your!
I can accept my part of responsibility and accountability. You never will!
I can heal from this pain, you live in denial and never will grow or heal from your pain!
I can learn to like myself for who I am, you only have a fault self and never will know yourself!
I will go on to have a normal loving and caring relationship, your will always be dysfunctional and without compassion!
I will learn to trust others, you can’t trust anyone but yourself!
I know my children love and care for me, does your?
I will grow old with my children, were are your children today?

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 5:17pm

Jane, a friend of mine calls me an OSB which is short for “old school bitch” which is the highest compliment she can pay. My preferred term is CRONE, which is an old English word for “wise old woman” and I wear my crone-hood proudly.

There’s a cute little book called “Crones Don’t Whine” written by an MD whose name I have forgotten (CRS–there goes my memory!) but it is quite a nice little book and celebrates the wisdom and knowledge that we crones have gotten in our lives. You can of course become an old, bitter, not wiser woman, but I choose to become a Crone and be proud of that. No hair dye for me, no dressing up like “Botox Barbie” or trying to pretend I look 20 instead of 60, but to be MYSELF, and not be ashamed of the wrinkles or the droops.

Actually I wouldn’t be 20 again for all the tea in china unless I could KNOW WHAT I KNOW NOW—and that ain’t gonna happen. POWER TO THE OLD CRONES AND OSBs. LOL

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 6:14pm

Sorry JaneSmith: I thought it was a snotty question for a so-called professional to have asked you. Especially in the condition you were at during that session. I used the wrong terminology and realized it after I sent the e-mail. I was trying to think of a word I could use, but the “B” word came to mind, since most of the women (not all) that are in my life keep asking me the same question. My eyes are rolling back because I’m sure people are going to say that we asked for all this, for them to come into our lives, power of attraction and all that. Well, I have a question. What if our Ex’s were using power of attraction to capture us? Ha!. Why is it always dumped back in our lives. That’s because I don’t think there is an answer for this. But, I’d like to see one of these so-called experts run into any of our Ex’s and see how well they do. I bet they won’t post here to tell us about it. Have to keep their image up and running. Mea Culpa.

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 6:28pm

Wini, I think you gots me confused with Still Sorting.

I don’t DO traditional counseling. Reading the Word, prayer is my therapy. Chattin with you fantabulous people is my therapy. Dancing my fancy moves til my muscles ache pleasantly, my cheeks flush and my hair is plastered to my head from sweat is my therapy. Writing my poetry, short stories is my therapy. Kissin, huggin on my kitty kats is my therapy. Sharing thoughts, support, care, fun with my best friend is my therapy.

I did visit a social worker once who was also a counselor, for possible medicine treatment due to lingering depression after conquering generalized anxiety. She shared much more than I did as I’ve always been hesitant to discuss my personal life with strangers. We talked for a couple of hours, about her problems with family and her work. I think she enjoyed herself being able to have someone listen to HER for once and not the other way. It was a great time!…haha

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 9:02pm

JaneSmith: I hear you. Yes, some do need to talk. My sister insisted (nice words) that I go see the counselor where she works … freebie of six sessions she never used due to her job. Long story short, I’m sitting in this office chatting. If you were a fly on the wall, the counselor’s face went ghost ashe … pulling herself together, she added “I’ve seen this on TV, in the movies and books, but I’ve never met anyone ….”. My heart went out to her, great therapist … but I couldn’t sit there and rehash what I already knew. It was over and done with and … now was time for me to heal. Plus, she finally admitted that I was FORCED to live with and through forced Post Traumatic Stress. Daaaaaaaaaa. D’You think? It was refreshing that a health professional finally admitted it (you could tell she was in touch with her emotions). No one ever admitted this while they were putting me through it, only insisting that I (or anyone) have to endure this. That’s the thing about anti-socials, intellectually they know what they are doing to a person (they read too) … it’s the emotional (putting the breaks on) part that’s missing. If they could feel what they were doing to another, they would never venture down this road.

Monday, 7 July 2008 @ 9:32pm

A while back I sat down and made a list of the people I have known in my life that I think, in retrospect, were psychopaths. Starting of course with my biological father, that I didn’t get to know until I was a teenager and went to work for him.

The list ended up quite long and included my x-father-in-law from my first husband, my mother’s brother, probably my grandmother (she was at least a high level malicious Narcissist in not a full fledged psychopath) Her father (seemed to have all the life-style of one, a bigamist for one, multiple marriages (4 at least, 2 at the same time), My mother’s paternal grandfather, several of his ancestors back to the 1800s,

A guy I dated once for a short time when I was first out on my own who hit me, and when I kicked him to the curb, stalked me, came back and put me in the hospital, and then went to jail, then continued stalking me afterwards for several months.

Several bosses I’ve had, several people who worked for me, several business associates, a neighbor or two, a couple that rented houses from me, Some co-workers, a physician I worked for a short time for. My hospital transferred me to her clinic where she had gone-through 3 LPNs, 3 Advanced Practice nurses, 3 office managers, and a nurse’s aid in 2 years time. I worked for her for one day, and then told my boss that they could fire me but I would not work for that woman. Fortunately, my boss said “well, I couldn’t work for her either” so she let me stay where I had been with the same physician for 10 years (and never had a cross word over anything) it ended up they closed the clinic because they could not “fire” the doctor and wouldn’t sanction her (and she was an EXCELLENT physician, just a poor excuse for a human being!) and no Advance Practice Nurse would work for her and the clinic had to have an APN as it was a “rural health” clinic and medicare mandated that there be an APN there at least 20 hours a week. Thankfully, the APN community in my state at that time was small enough that “everyone” in it knew which physicians you couldn’t “safely” work with.

There are LOTS of psychopaths in “everyday” life—many times until you get to “know” them by working with them, dating them, living next door to them, or whatever, you don’t recognize them for what they are, because many times they are able to “hide” under the “cloak” of professional success or degrees or religious affiliation or just superficial “courtesy” but when you get to know these people on any intimate level by living near them or working with them, it behoves us to be CAREFUL, they can destroy your peace, your professional career or a hundred other problems they can cause. They can dupe others to help the do their malicious deeds and all for no reason other than CONTROL, POWER, or just plain old MALICE and the enjoyment of “winning” against someone and seeing that person “bleed.”

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 3:01pm

Dear OxDrover: Funny that you mentioned putting a list together. I put a list together drawing a line down the middle what I liked about my ex husband and what I didn’t like about him. Pros and Cons list. The I added all the guys I ever dated, listing all their pros and cons. Then I added my dad on the list because I needed to write more on the positive side – the list was getting lopsided. Not stopping there I added my mom, my siblings, my friends, aunts, uncles, grandparents … the list basically was of many people I knew. I did this to remind me (bring it out of my subconscious to my conscious level) what I liked about people and what I absolutely would not put up with people. When I met my EX and would talk on the phone he hit so many of the positive sides to the list I couldn’t get over it. I was going to introduce him to my best friend because I was so busy with school that I didn’t have time to focus on a relationship. Long story short, last spring, when the weather cleared up I cleaned out one bay of my garage (My ex’s crap took over my garage). A friend came over to help (Ok, he’s an ex boyfriend from HS that we stayed friends all these years, nice guy). Anyway, I’m leaning against the fence and my friend is carry a garbage can full of junk out. As he’s lugging this can I noticed a paper stuck to the bottom of the can. I pulled it out and looked at it. It was one page of my pros and cons list … in the garage. When I clean out the other bay of the garage I will find the entire list. My EX studied this list. That’s why he knew everything to make me happy (so I thought). That’s why I never got to see what he was behind the mask. Incredible. True story.

Peace. I’m taking deep, deep, deep breaths now. Another true story. Things that my bosses did at work to me that didn’t bother me that much. Stopped. Things that I told my EX about that drove me nuts … amplified. D’ya think? Me too.

Final note, I accidently was looking through my EX’s attache case for a magic marker … and found one of my manager’s business card. He left our relationship soon after that … using business out of state excuse.

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 3:39pm

southernman429 says:

Wini…

I just started reading Tolle’s “The New Earth” I had bought it and “the Power Of Now” a year and a half ago… Read the Power of Now, (Hard read)… win what part of “The New Earth In what part does it talk about getting over something that you think you cannot?…… I have had a “bad” day today.. some of the “ghosts” have channeled back to me… I am very surprised by this… it’s been months since I felt this way.

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 4:47pm

southernman429: It’s quieting your mind by focusing on your pets or a flower or a tree. Listen to your breathing, breath in and exhale, inhale, exhale etc. etc. for a few minutes just keep focusing on your breathing. Keep focusing on every breath and it will eventually bring you into the “now”. This moment, right now, is all we have. Not yesterday, not tomorrow, right now. Don’t worry if you can’t focus right away, it takes practice to turn off your ego (thoughts in your head). The more you practice it, the better at it you get. Just breath.

I’m glad you got the book. It’s a definite must read.

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 5:58pm

southernman429: I forgot. You can go on Oprah’s site for free. Oprah.com log in, give yourself a password. She’s keeping Tolle’s taped classes on line for a while because she knows everyone needs to read and hear him. There is 10 detailed discussions with an audience from around the globe. Just download them to your computer or IPod and listen to this man. He is unbelievable. There are others on there too. They’re all intense.

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 6:01pm

newworld view says:

southernman….i attend a book club and we meet every thurs and that how i found out about the books and oprahs site….but for me the book is too hard to focus on and i have the cd’s….much easier to listen to while driving or at home and amazing the peace that it brings to you…just concentrating on this moment …not the last one not the next one…just deliberately enjoying this one, even if at a red light….it is very calming and peaceful…for some the tapes are better

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 8:47pm

Oxy aka OSB…haha.

That’s funny. When my best friend refused to call me a b*tch, I told him..”Fine. I’ll just antagonize some random guy out on the street, maybe HE will call me a b*tch. My luck though, he’ll ask me out on a date!”

Ya know, I’ve read that in pagan mythology, people would worship the 3 goddesses: The Maiden, The Mother, and The Crone. The Maiden for virtue, purity, thirst for knowledge; The Mother for bringing forth life, compassion, nurturing spirit; and the Crone for good ole wisdom, what she gained through a lifetime of experience and shared with the youngsters.

I worship only the Lord, but I think it’s important to celebrate the cycles of a woman’s life. Don’t you agree?

I also wanted to say I read your comment ^ there about the psycho list. Maybe I’m being skeptical but I really believe that the statistics are too darn low for psychopaths AND the entire spectrum of PDIs. If the lousy psychiatric associations can’t even agree to a decisive term, then how can we expect them to do any valid research? And if they have “performed extensive research” just where did they locate the subjects? What tests did they administer to determine if subject A has a definitive PD.

I’m just gonna do what you’re gonna do: STAY the H*LL away from them if even one iddy biddy red flag pops up on my radar. I’m taking no more foolish chances with my sanity, my physical person, my valuable precious life!

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 9:47pm

Southernman,

Go read the essay thread on “triggers—mean there is anger and pain you need to process” it is really a good one. I recently went through a new set of paiin over my NC with my mother, and I thought I had that “ghost” put to rest, but obviously there was still some lurking pain and anger I hadn’t processed. I THINK I am through it now, at least consciously I FEEL like I am, thinking about her, visualizing her in my mind, etc. and even realizing today how she used “mind reading” to accuse me of things, or to excuse herself for the things she did to me, like not telling me about my aunt’s memorial service “Well, I didn’t think you’d want to go” etc.

I realized she had done that to me my entire life, but (roll eyes and shrug shoulders) so what, just more of “the same” stuff she’s done that I hadn’t even noticed as “abuse” but now can see that it was a form of abuse.

We all I think have some back and forth “progress” and I think it can be expected, but of course it still hurts, but each back step allows us to run forward when it is over. (((Hugs))))
“

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 9:52pm

Dear southernman429: That’s a typical reaction from being violated by someone you loved. Take a deep breath. Focus on your breathing. Listen to your breath inhaling and exhaling. Don’t focus on anything else but listening to your breathing. As soon as you only focus on your breathing … a total calm will come over you. That is God’s calmness, tranquility, peace and love. That is what we were suppose to get from those we loved .

… Oh, by the way, even the obnoxious (that’s what Tolle calls them, obnoxious with heavy pain bodies) is our expressing our love for God. What we see in others is our love for God.

Remember this while you heal yourself. Be kind and good to yourself. If you don’t want to answer the phone or the door, don’t. If you don’t want to see someone and they insist on coming by. Don’t. Now is the time for you. I liked soaking for hours in a steamy hot tub with my favorite music playing …. one night I couldn’t even get out of the tub. I was going to freak, but I chilled and managed to climb out. I was like a floppy doll. (LOL) ….ooooohhh, oooooohhh, oooohhh, I just remembered what Tolle said about sleeping. Lie directly in the middle of your bed … arms and legs stretched out, flat on your back, no pillow … and go to sleep. He said, that’s what we are suppose to do while we sleep. You are going to sleep like a baby. And after you do, thank God for this (smile) that’s God pampering you.

Tuesday, 8 July 2008 @ 11:43pm

rperk6069 says:

Not to break up the thread or anything, but I kind of need some advise. An old friend of mine, who also knows the P, told me tonight that he heard that J, is supposedly doing wonderful. The woman (girl, who is 27 by now and he is going on 44) whom he got pregnant while he was with me, is now pregnant again by him and supposedly off the meth, has a good job and is living within 7 miles of me just doing great. This is what J told his hairdresser who told my friend. Now my perdicument is, that makes me feel like crap. He treated me so very bad and now I don’t know what to do with my feelings which I know are wrong. Can someone give me some insight in why I am feeling this way cuz I am too close to the situation to figure it out myself. I haven’t seen him in over a year and haven’t spoken to him since the last day in Feb. of this year in which he told me how unhappy he is with “her”. Please help. Thanx

Tuesday, 15 July 2008 @ 10:04pm

Hi Perky.. I am sure some of the wiser bloggers will come too comfort and advise you. But from my point of view, it’s sound like a lot of gossip and I would ask your friend not to tell you anything about him, you don’t need to know what is going on, good or bad, you need to enforce your no contact by telling this friend this. I don’t know any body that know’s my X’s whereabout or what is going on but if I do come across a mutual aquantance and they udder the word MIKE I will stop them right there and tell them I dont want to know….next subject…

Tuesday, 15 July 2008 @ 10:31pm

Dear rperk,

I’m so sorry you are going through this right now, I do know how hard it is..but Henry’s suggestion is the right one, now that ou are NC physically you need to go NC emotionally. That means no talking about him, and no listening about him.

But keep this in mind, “she’s off meth”–I’m glad for her, but do you really think she will STAY off meth with the P in her life? Probably not. “Having another baby”—boy that makes me hAPPY—NOT!!! A meth head for a mother and the P for a father, that child in cursed before it is born without even one good functional parent.

Hun, he will never be “doing wonderful” for very long, you can BET on that. She is not better than you are, and my guess is that she is just strung out enough on the Meth that for this minute she thinks he is “wonderful”–by getting preg again we can tell for sure she isn’t “wise” now can’t we?

You got the best of the deal, my dear,you got RID of HIM!!

(((((BIG HUGS))))

Tuesday, 15 July 2008 @ 10:59pm

Dear Rperk, when I first broke with my ex, he cleverly used mutual acquaintainces to send me information about how well he was doing and how he had met someone else alot younger blah blah blah blah. At first I was annoyed and jealous, and then I thought, yea he has deliberately done this to wind me up at a distance and to try and give me the impression that he has a ‘new life’ with someone else and not to get involved. Perfect ploy – he final stab in the back.

But after I calmed down, I resolved NOT to speak to any mutual acquaintances about info on either side, either coming from me or him. He still doesnt know I have had cancer, as although I know he will never contact me again (he did too much), I will never contact him for any reason, even to let him know that.

Finally, I know that whatever relationship he is in, will never work out long term (unless he finds a willing slave) and that as soon as he is up to his tricks, most women will put him out with the trash. So take heart Rperk, its just a way of winding you up and engaging all your thoughts on him.

Wednesday, 16 July 2008 @ 4:06am

Thank you all. Last night I was upset, mostly because of the way I felt when I heard about him. I was kind of shocked that I still had even a little bit of feeling left toward him. I don’t like the fact that he is back in my area and too close to where I live and hope he stays away from me. I guess the warning is good so I know to keep my eyes open. (He likes to drive by peoples houses and check up on them).

I feel sorry for the new victim and the children she is having with him. Especially the children. They are innocent and he has 4 older children already with his ex-wife that he doesn’t take care of or support.
I see I have quite a bit farther to go in the healing process, just thought I was farther along then I truly am.

Wednesday, 16 July 2008 @ 9:27am

If, every time you knocked on my door I punched you in the nose … how often would you visit me? Think about this. What I just explained is physical abuse. Mental abuse is the same except you can’t see the bloody nose.

Remember this whenever you think of your EXs. Remember the punch in your nose and they will continue to punch every time you open your door (aka, your heart, your mind, your emotions). You can only knock on their door when they too, go through self evaluation, feel the emotions, grow, forgive, be compassionate again, learn how to love and respect every one and everything.

Peace to your heart and souls as you go through the process of recovering after the abuse.

Wednesday, 16 July 2008 @ 9:47am

Dear Rperk,

The triggers that come back from time to time do tell us that we have more healing to do (there is a thread here on that, go back and reread it again. I do quite often)

A few weeks ago when my contact with my XDIL-P and my mother triggered a “break down” and tears etc. I realized I had some more healing to do, and I THINK I got it right this time, but if another trigger zings me I will go back and redo it again, eventually as we make baby steps we start to be able to make bigger steps, so don’t let this little set back make you think you haven’t already done a LOT of healing because you have, and these little back tracks are just to “sweep” the corners again where we missed a little something with the “broom” of our healing. I find when I sweep my kitchen with a real broom that I always have to go back and do it again because somehow no matter how carefully I sweep there is always a pretty good pile of stuff I missed the first time through, so I do it a second time and am always amazed at the pile of dirt I missed the first time through. I think our healing is the same way emotionally, and we miss a pile of pain here or there, little ones, but as we “keep sweeping” we get it all “cleaned out” ((((hugs)))))

Wednesday, 16 July 2008 @ 2:48pm

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Psychopaths in everyday life

80 Comments to “Psychopaths in everyday life”

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