Do psychopaths/sociopaths make choices?
PDF Hopefully, many of you read this blog because you want to know how a trained psychiatrist deals with the issues you also face. I am not glad to be eternally tied to a psychopath, but since I am, you and I share the same challenges. We can reflect on these challenges together and we will all be better and stronger.
This week I received an email from one of my ex-husband’s family members, so I will put off the planned discussion of psychopathic anxiety to address the issues raised by the email. The email points to the trivializing of the sociopath’s/psychopath’s behavior that family members often do. This week give some thought as to how you will deal with others who trivialize a sociopath’s/psychopath’s behavior or perhaps your own tendency to “excuse” what he/she does.
In case you missed this, my ex-husband is in prison and is a sex offender. Regarding the events which led to the prison sentence, one of his blood relatives just wrote me, “but I don’t agree with all of his choices and in all fairness I do understand your disgust with ________’s actions.”
I want to ask all of you to consider this question: Do sociopaths/psychopaths make choices? If they do what does it mean when we say we “disagree” with their choices? What is the difference between disagreeing with their choices vs. being “disgusted” by them?
Last night at La Salsa, my favorite restaurant I made a choice. I chose to have fish tacos and some chips. I chose the fish tacos because I really like them. If I didn’t like fish tacos I wouldn’t choose them. I have to also confess, that I ate a small amount of ice cream when I got home, even though I am counting calories. I also really like ice cream.
My food choices were indeed choices, but notice that you learn about me from my choices. In regards to the ice cream, you learn that my impulse control regarding food is only fair in that I ate the ice cream even though I am making an effort to reduce the amount of fat I eat. If you have met me, you know that I am not particularly overweight so you probably wouldn’t hold my ice cream consumption against me.
What we learn from my eating behavior is that all choices reflect the chooser and his/her circumstances. I ate the fish tacos because I went to La Salsa. I ate the ice cream because it was in my freezer. If I hadn’t gone to La Salsa or had ice cream in the freezer, I would have eaten differently.
That gets me to sociopaths/psychopaths. These individuals do not just make “choices.” They, with malice and forethought set up situations where they will be able to gratify their deviant impulses. My former husband sought me out so he would have access to victims in addition to me. The choices he made started with his looking for his next victim on the internet. That victim turned out to be me. This situation is analogous to my eating the ice cream last night, because although I am trying to eat healthier, I did buy the ice cream and put it in the freezer myself. I would have eaten 250 less calories last night if I didn’t buy the ice cream in the first place.
It is clear that a person’s pattern of choices reflects that person’s drives and impulse control. Most sociopaths/psychopaths have a clear pattern of “choices” that show clearly what and who they really are. During psychiatry residency I was taught that the best predictor of what a person will do in the future is what that person has done in the past. This is because the past is a reflection of who that person is.
If choices are a reflection of our person and our drives are we without choice in the end? The beauty of it is that we do have choices because as humans we have some capacity to set up our environments and to modify our drives. If it was really necessary for me to avoid ice cream, I simply would stop buying it in the first place. I can also work on liking fruit or some other healthier alternative. As a human I can change what I like, what I want and ultimately what I do.
On the other hand, if you really understand the connection between what a sociopath/psychopath chooses and what he/she IS you will move from disagreeing with the choices to being disgusted by the person. Merriam Webster’s online dictionary defines disgust as:
1. to provoke to loathing, repugnance, or aversion : be offensive to
2. to cause (one) to lose an interest or intention
Notice that seeing the connection between choices, behavior and the nature of a psychopath, provokes loathing, repugnance, aversion and loss of interest in the person. I have stated before that I believe the people who are “fascinated” by psychopaths do not understand them. Understanding psychopaths breeds contempt not fascination.
The other difference between disagreeing with what a psychopath does and being disgusted, is that disagreeing is an intellectual exercise, while disgust is an emotion. If you are disgusted by psychopaths, that emotion means you comprehend WHAT THEY ARE with your entire being.
Can sociopaths/psychopaths get help or ever make different choices?
The problem with psychopaths is that they are so grandiose that they never examine their own behavior, nor do they ever seek to modify their choices. The choices they make are a deep reflection of their pathology. That pathology includes a lack of desire to be anything other than what they are. But why don’t sociopaths/psychopaths desire to change? The answer is that they enjoy their choices too much. They also do not have insight enough to comprehend that their drives are deviant. They think everyone else is as they are, only weaker.
The other problem is that drives are triggered by the things that remind us of our pleasures. Since people trigger the sociopath’s/psychopath’s deviant drives for sex and power, in order to begin to be different they would have to stay away from other people. Since sociopaths/psychopaths don’t want to be alone, they can never take the steps required for change. They will therefore never be anything other than what they are- dangerous to everyone.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Dear Longdistance S,
Welcome–read a bit more my dear and I think you will see that while there is a lot of “pissing and moaning” there is an equal amount of “I was a volunteer victim” “I let/allowed him do such and such” “I am responsible for staying” etc. etc.
This blog is NOT about blaming them for everything bad in our lives, it IS about seeing what part WE played in allowing it to happen to us. We participated or it couldn’t have happened.
That said, none of us DESERVED what they did to us or others. If I come up to you and I BEG you to hit me, stab me, shoot me—is it right for you to do so? Is it your duty to do so because I asked you to?
Yes, we gave away our power because we were deceived, and they deceived us in order to gain that power. Hand in Glove, but once our eyes were opened, we took back our power, to heal ourselves of the wounds. Just like a broken bone, that heals, is actually stronger than the bone was to start with, our injuries and our wounds will heal and we will be stronger, and never again “volunteer” to be a victim again.
As far as “making monsters” out of them—well some are and some aren’t completely monsters, but they are without conscience…as far as “us acting like them”–not on your life, because we, as indidividuals and as a group DO have consciences.
I suggest that you read a bit more and mediate on some of the posts and articles here to give you a bigger overview.
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bird says:
I think we are powerful people. We have made decisions to get the sociopaths out of our lives. I made some really BIG decisions based on lies spun by the sociopath. After the sociopath is gone, there is a lot of healing that occurs. Reading and writing about the healing really helps. It feels to me like I am standing in the remains after a storm. I am looking at what is left. Taking the pieces and trying to make some decisions based on truths for once. We are all trying to make decisions based on truths. There is nothing more powerful then taking back control of our own destiny.
Fortunately sociopathology, being a mental illness, can be studied in groups. Not all cancers are the same, not all colds are the same, and not all sociopaths are the same. But if I am going to die from cancer, I want to talk and learn from others who have survived it. Learn what worked for them and what didn’t. Learn how they are coping. I want to survive this, and learning from groups of people who have experienced it, is the best way I know how.
I don’t think sociopaths are monsters. They are mentally ill. I view them more as emotionally “slow.” It would be mean to think of a mentally handicapped person as a monster. I even feel bad for him, a little bit. But because so many people have shared their experiences and knowledge, I know that this person cannot be helped. I know there is something wrong in his brain, that cannot be fixed. I know that the best thing for me to do, is to have no contact. No contact not because they are monsters, but because there is nothing we can do to stop their abuse. I also do not think he is a god. In his delusioned state, he thinks he is one.
My sociopath was not scared. If he showed fear to me it would have been awesome. Instead he showed no emotion. Before I had the epiphany that he was mentally ill, I asked him if he had any emotion about what was going on. He just said he was numb from the whole experience. I wondered why he looked the same as if he had just had thanksgiving dinner and was watching a football game?
You know-Long distance S writes like a sociopath. What does the S stand for, anyway? If it weren’t for the Darlings statement-I would have convinced myself that it was my ex sociopath. Notice the “you are just like the sociopath” statement. I now know that after reading from this blog, that paranoia is common after a run in with a sociopath!
I know why the sociopath gave me a rush, and that is because I read Dr leedoms book on why women fall for sociopaths. Again it was a great book that studied groups of people that have had similar experiences. And it described me in great accuracy, even though I was not apart of the study. For a rush I am going to turn to snowboarding, spicy food and having a baby on my own instead of the scary excitement with the sociopath.
Free-I totally know what you mean about putting your guard up. I had a situation where mine was up recently, and it will never come down with this person.
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rperk6069 says:
I have spent YEARS thinking I deserved everything I got and you know what? NO ONE deserves to be treated the way I was treated or the way many of the women and men were treated here.
I am different from him. I would never in a million years steal, lie, cheat and knowingly & intentionally harm another person. Ever.
I am in a new relaionship, a good, healthy relationship that I thought I would never in my life find or have. I thought I was ruined. I have to take it very slow because of all of the emotional damage I have been through and all the beatings I gave myself for staying with a psychopath. I beat myself up like no one ever could and I can’t do that anymore or else I will not survive.
I fell for him because he was charming, he told me he cared, he told me lies that were very convincing and I believed him because that is how I grew up, to believe unless you find out different. Did I or anyone here deserve to be trusting, loving, kind and caring then get lied to, cheated on, abused? No one deserved to have their lives ripped apart, torn upside down, their children hurt for any reason.
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James says:
“I too am a psychologist and much like the rest of you have been subjected to some of these agonies, however, I am struggling with a sense of victim hood that I get from some of these postings. I also think what I am hearing is a lot of blaming and pointing fingers at the so-called sociopath, however, we are no different from them if we are driven by “our” “impulses” darlings!”
Longdistance
I find this is be a very unfair comment. In fact I don’t see this happening at all. Yes, many of us are in pain and yes many of us do cry. But many more of us are asking some very, very deep soul searching questions concerning not only the person in question (sociopath) but our part in this dysfunctional relationship, our responsibility of that relationship. And the effects it had on our children and ourselves. I have found web sites that do this (your quote) very thing. And can assure you that I grew tired of that, the “blaming and pointing fingers at the so-called sociopath” and never visit these site again. So with that stated Longdistance, I will say for a fact, that isn’t what we do here at lovefraud. That many of us come here to heal, learn and understand. And with our hearts in our hands saying to ourselves, how can we prevent this from happening again?
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TrishNJ says:
Longdistance S,
You certainly did get alot of attention with that post….I’m sorry you went through your painful experience. It feels good to let it out. As a therapist…i hope you understand the long term affects of the traumas some of us have endured…I sure don’t want to harbor that suffering alone! Sometimes I experience post traumatic stress and severe anxiety from the trauma. I wasn’t the pathalogical liar…and the sociopath….and my blind spots were that I didn’t have knowledge of this “type” and my background was laking in some ways….so you should take back what you said about “hate messages”. These are not hate messages….they are facts about painful, unfortunate situations. And I have learned from life that there are good and bad in all professions ….for instance….a good attorney…is accountable not only for doing a fair job according to their “ethics”….but for being accountable for documenting all the work they do and sending that to their client on a monthly basis….otherwise…..they are a bad attorney…and guess what…so many are bad! And guess what I “loath” bad attorneys! I have had both good and bad….the blind spots have been lifted and I have learned about accountablility. The same is true for your profession and mine and the home improvement guys and the school bus driver…..accountability! There are “ethics” that we are taught in all of our professions….we are accountable! You are accountable for the laws of the land whether you know them or not!
You cannot prove to me that we all get what we deserve! I have done alot of soul searching in life…..I have been blessed with alot of spiritual awakenings….Thank you “Father”…..I always thank God…. and spiritually what I have learned from my studies with God is that what God wants is all good for all of us! In Kabbalah there is an understanding that makes most sense to me so I choose to believe this…”we are here as an agreement we have with God….to earn our way to God….The truth is God would like us to have all good immediately but we chose to have this experience so we could really appreciate having it all one day….So when someone puts a serious wrench in the good by so obviously doing “bad”…they are doing me a hugh favor…..my appreciation becomes more intense….and my love for God….greater!
So instead of seeing it as a “bashing” see it as an appreciation for the good!
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OxDrover says:
I would like to comment about the comments to Longdistance S…very well put by ALL. You guys are sooooo awesome! (((hugs)))))
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bookworm says:
Hi everyone:
I’ve been reading all the postings. I’m very grateful for this blog.
I received a letter with a check for $2,000 from my the P. Both items were written with red ink. In my culture, writing in red ink is never encouraged because it is a sign of bad omen/luck.
I still have canceled checks for $58k.
I dealt with the devil.
Please, keep me in your prayers.
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Benzthere says:
Whoa. If I am not mistaken, this is a site for everyone’s opinions, further to which each is entitled without judgment or belittlement. Why should anyone be asked to “prove” their opinion, it’s their’s regardless what opinion I or any other may hold? And as a group, a cheerleader, though group consensus is held, I find at the very least rude. Our emotions have been through the wringer, but we can practice getting them back under control here.
There is a time for anger and venting but there is also a danger in wallowing. Instead of deserving, I would like to think and hope possibly it was more along the lines of allowing or inviting. ‘Nuf said, other than I think we missed a great opportunity for additional discussion instead of perhaps scaring someone away.
We are all at different stages for certain, so we all prefer different levels of support and feedback. Personally, I would prefer the level of detail contained in all the pro-offered individual stories left to the personal story section or as a blog head the site authors originate. Likewise, the reprinted personal conversations, pages long detail of repetitive incidents as examples, poems, and song lyrics to be held in some sort of individual “chat” blog so we can focus on the concepts in a general discussion of the blog heading and not the minutia of individual detail. That’s just a function of where I am, not that I’ve not done it myself and not because they are not valid or possibly even helpful.
That said, if something appears that isn’t personally appealing, skip over it. We are all here by open invitation in a place for all to feel safe to opine, and if we disagree let’s strive to disagree with respect to all authors and all others, and in so doing, we are also showing it to our very dedicated sponsors here at Lovefraud. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, Matthew 12:34. And that, other than the Scripture reference, is just my opinion.
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bird says:
My ex sociopath used eastern religion to justify his actions all the time! He even compared himself to a bodhisattva after he told me the great news that he wanted to abandon me and the unborn child for another women in another state.
At this point I am leary of anyone who uses eastern philosophy to justify the actions that harm another. That is not the intent of these teachings.
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OxDrover says:
Bird, many people use “religion” as a cover for their evil intentions, I think Jesus said that even the devil can quote scripture. It does’t matter if it”eastern, western, northern or southern” religion or philosophy, they can all be twisted.
I am a Chrisitian, but I read widely from several different faiths because I find that most religions have great wisdom to offer–that’s why people believe in them. I also read philosophy as well because it too, to my mind, has great wisdom to offer. I spent the weekend with a dear friend who is a Hindu and I find so many things about her religion that are similar to what I think the Christian religion teaches.
The “bad” side of any religion is the people who pretend to believe it but they use it as a club to beat other people with, or as cloak to cover up their evil hearts and deeds. The very people in Jesus’ day who pretended to be so “holy” were the ones who were scounderels and cried for his crucificition because he recognized them for the scounderels they were.
We see today when some “lofty” public official gets caught with “his pants down around his ankles” like the recent thing with the Governor of NY, the very man who was so “hard on crime” of sex for sale, and he was participating in it himself. Many psychopaths and other con artists have found that by pretending to have a solid moral compas, they can make more headway than they can with the appearance of what they really are. The group in Texas that was recently raided for their “marrying” young women and girls to older men either by outright force or brainwashing them, and multiple women “married” to the same man. They used “religion” to convince these women and girls that what they were doing was “right and God’s will.”
I do believe in the “freedom of religion” in this country, but there comes a point that some things should not be allowed just because you believe it is your religion–what if you decide to worship Baal and want to sacrifice your child on his altar? Should your “freedom of religion” be allowed? What if your child was over 18 and wanted to be “sacrificed”?
My mother, though not a psychopath, still used religion to “justify” her enabling of the psychopathic grandson (my son). I think many many psychopaths use philosophy and fake morality to cloak their abuses. Sometimes it is pretty sly, other times not so much.
I won’t turn away from my spirituality because people abuse it like they abuse just about anything you can name. I know people who abuse many religions, not just Eastern or Christianity. It is the person who does that bad thing, not the religion itself, because most religions preach about the same thing about kindness, care and tolerance, and people who pervert their beliefs to persecute others are in my opinion, twisting religion for their own desires, it isn’t the religion itself.
Unfortunately more peoople have been killed and hurt in the name of “God” than just about any other “reason.” It is typical “psychopathic” thinking…”you are not worthy, because…you are Hindu, you are Christian, you are female, you are not educated, you are black, you are yellow, you are…whatever.”
I AM WORTHY, and nothing about me makes me UNworthy–not my age, sex, color, religion, education, or anything else.
I do find “meaning” in what I have experienced on this earth, and I hope that I have learned from those experiences, both good and bad, so that I am a better person for those experiences.
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TrishNJ says:
I think society has become very confused…and rightfully so because of the Media exposure of the lack of accountabilty of our leaders. Just 10 years ago if a leaders dirty laundry was exposed…they immediately resigned….or were impeached like Clinton….now they have the nerve to try to keep their office….and some of them have for months….what does that tell you….they think it’s O.K. to be immoral as a leader. This is outrageous to me….It makes it O.K. in our corporations…in our schools….in our families…. Kids today have very little boundaries….I raised my daughter with boundaries and she would point out how her friend didn’t get punished for that! I once grounded her for a week for a serious issue. She said her friend Sarah didn’t get punished….well her friend Sarah had been out and about till all hours of the night since we moved into town in 5th grade…with a cell phone for her safety….so she could call her mother….who didn’t give a hoot where she was….by 8th grade she was facing juvenile charges….my daughter being an accomplice did not have to face….and a week grounded was too much! I had a long conversation with my daughter about that….and then in school all the kids were acting out with hate against my daughter because her so called friend Sarah was in trouble now….my daughter asked me to move her to the catholic school but I couldn’t afford it…and with my con-artist problem. I guess leaving and going to live with her dad was the solution.
What I am trying to say is a moral life anymore is very difficult. I struggle every day to stay strong and morally correct. Because it seems as though everyone else has given up…..except a few! I will never give up.
And Sarah ended up on heroin….go figure….her mother didn’t give a
s#@t! I wonder if she still speaks to her mother!
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OxDrover says:
Trish, “Accountability” for our behaviors and the consequences of them if, like you said, important to society and to families and to society as a whole.
I agree with you that too many of our “role models” in society are not accountable for their behaviors and show no remorse, or shame when they are caught and exposed.
Parents who are NOT parents in the sense that they don’t train their offspring, etc. are the things that bring down a society–any society. Studies with rats under very crowded conditions show exactly the same patterns that we see in our streets now. The Japanese developed the ability to live in very crowded conditions over many generations and with a very structured society. We haven’t done that.
It will be interesting to see where our society goes in the next few decades. Hope I’m around to see it all. I think the Ps flourishing in such conditions and becoming more powerful in politics and more brazen is interesting, but not unique in the history of the world.
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LouiseRosen says:
My X used to say: ‘from the depths of my BLACK HEART’ which indicated to me that he considered himself bad and evil and was proud of it and flaunted it! Similarly, his choices were made from that context and he knew it! Evil-minded people do evil things! Do they choose? Oh, I would say that they occasionally do something good, but later on, it’s easy to see that they may have had ulterior motives… they like people to think of them as being okay or even kind and benevolent – it’s part of their ‘con.’
As for families’ minimizing the evilness of the sociopath… my sister recently took me to task about our mother – in that she said I was wrong to classify or label mother because of her ‘mental problem’ (mother is a diagnosed sociopath) and that people don’t classify or label those who have physical diseases like cancer, kidney disease, diabetes, broken legs, etc. I responded that people with cancer, diabetes, broken legs, etc. usually seek help whereas the sociopath doesn’t recognize that they have problems, and some family members generally deny or ignore the sociopath’s problem.
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TrishNJ says:
Dear Free,
I love that you are on your spiritual path….and that you are finding “truth” in your existance….quoting the bible is a wonderful thing….I thing God brings the truth to you when you need it most.
I want to say that I am not religious myself…I’m more spiritual. I have a difficult time with some of the going-on’s inside of religions! It’s not the religion as much as it is the hypocracy within…in saying that….I pray every day and when I am working doing massage I pray for the people I work on. And I know God is with me!
When I was in the pit of my “hell” with the last P….I was going to church all the time…catholic…born again….I was looking for answers….and I was not finding them…I was trying to bring my P to church and I did one time….and I also brought him to this class I was taking which was enlightening….and he came one time…and I will never forget when the teacher of the class who was also a Dennis….went up to my Dennis and they happened to be the exact height….(this is a God given…this was a spiritual moment)….and my Dennis says to the other Dennis….am I out of integrity if I am not telling the whole story? (The course was all about integrity and your words…and the affects they create and how it comes back to you) The teacher Dennis look him deep in his eyes…and you had to see it….and he says “what do you think”…..and my Dennis took a step back and was taken a back…it was like he saw a ghost. He wanted to get out of there. What I believe happened there was that Dennis spoke to Dennis on a soul level…. He can never forget that. You are not being loving when you are out of integrity….and manipulating someones mind and holding back the truth is being out of integrity….and not answering questions when asked or avoiding…is being out of integrity…..
The classes were the first “aid” to getting back my life….than I stoped the classes and I felt I needed more….and a guess the year earlier I was looking into Kabballah….the day I quit the classes just an hour later I get a call from a Kabballah teacher. His name was David. And he talked about Transformation….and that was it for me….I started reading….I don’t do well with groups and church and services….right now anyway…but I read on my own and a teacher would call me every once in a while. And I feel my eyes have been opened by some of my reading….alot of it I could not even grasp…so I don’t….I just take what I do get from it…..I like it because it enhances your life.
The one thing I want to share with you which is that in the Kabballah they say there are 5 levels of the soul that the soul vibrates on in this world. The first being the lowest and the fifth being the highest. Maybe the p’s are at the first level. When the Kabballah talks about “satan” which is pronounced sah-tahn….they are not talking about an evil being….they are talking about a negitive, evil energy! THE SATAN.
Kabballah is a study that enriches your study of the 5 Books of Moses or the Old Testiment. In the Kabballah there is alway concern about our lives and the “opponent” The opponent uses Satan. If you want to have real success in life…you must recognize that all good fortune comes from the Creator…God….and that you are the sole builder of your own success and happiness…in your growth you learn that your ego does not have the power to bring anything “great” to you…..True “greatness” comes from your spiritual growth and recognizing the opponent working to ruin our lives…ie control and diplaced anger…for instance…control devotes ourselve to false idols…that is why we don’t really like it….because it is going against God…..and anger conected to control is idolotry….so the meditation is ….anger is purged from my being and I bring peace and love and happiness to my life.
So in saying that I urge all of us to purge the power games that were brought to our lives…recognize that it is distroying our happiness….let it go….let it go….let it go….until you are free and you are now feeling and existing in a peaceful place of happiness….
I find it helps me….and I believe God brought Kabballah to me….for my healing…because it helps me….and I believe in this web-site as part of my healing too….because it is so incredibly informative…and open-minded people are here just telling each other about their lives and their pain and the way they heal!
This is what I want to share…..and I am grateful I can.
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inthebreach57 says:
Dear Dr. Leedom,
I am so glad I found your website through Aftermath-Surviving- Psychopathy. This website is so informational and healing. Truly a Godsend. I am amazed and disgusted at the amount of people on here that have been caught by P trolls. On the other hand I do not feel so alone and isolated in what my son and I am going through. I read your posts and others on here and become angry for these people because I feel we are all or have stood in the same shoes. People around me who refuse to recognize my husbands wickedness seem to have a common thread of being bought by him and a seeming sense of obligation/ loyalty to him. I keep asking myself how could they do this knowing what they have seen and heard from him. I ask what is missing in them to accept a P for a few coin. Maybe they think it is no big deal as long as they are not at his mercy but I know he will double back on them and collect his pound of flesh for a penny just as Shakespere wrote of Shylock (sorry for wrong spellings). I am torn between anger and pity for my loved ones and feel even bitter at times. Some moments I feel they will reap what they have sown and deserve it, then I feel bad and don’t wan’t to see the damage P will do to them. I am terribly torn and guilt ridden over these thoughts because the 4 people in my family who are ignoring the P’s wickedness are my two older daughters (his stepchildren), and my cousin and her husband. I have a large number of people in my family and they all get it except these 4. He has gotten them out of traffic tickets, bought cars, paid for divorces, vacations and various other expenses. They are sending the message that they don’t want to choose sides. I want them to. I want them to choose my little boys side- DEFEND THE DEFENSELESS, A CHILD. Please tell me Dr., in your experience why do people refuse to accept, believe and respond when the mask has been dropped on a P? What is wrong with these people that I love?
My two daughters and the oldests boyfriend went to Phoenix this year for baseballs spring training games. I have two brothers who live there and my older brother didn’t bother to see the girls while they were there. They hadn’t seen their uncles in 7 years. I told them their uncle Lee was very busy and couldn’t see them. It was not the truth but I didn’t want to hurt them. He will not look upon them or be in the same room with them because of reprobate behavior and turning their backs on their little brother and me. My mother, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles speak of,”writing them off forever”, but I don’t want this because I know they will return to us emotionally battered and beaten down when the P is finished with them. He will separate them and create animosity between them eventually because that is what he has done in the past with them and anyone he can manipulate into fighting. I am at such a loss and because he can’t freely access my son any longer he has gone after my daughters. They are pawns at this point in our divorce and he is parading them all over the city in what I assume is an attempt to show his attorney peers, “see, how bad could I be if her daughters are spending time with me and have nothing to do with their mother and little brother”. The Forensic Therapist that did our Psych evaluations made it clear to me that my two older daughters do not count in this custody dispute. That was a burden lifted for me because I was wondering if he would try to use them in court. The therapist told me this without previous discussion on the subject so I can only guess that the P had revealed to the therapist during their interview that he had plans to use my daughters in court.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
Birdie, I hope that jerk stays out of your life.
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
In the Breach, all I can say is, strive to become your own person, to always “look sane” in public, to be prepared to wait quite a while before people see him for who he truly is. And heck, if I were you I’d say that right to their faces.. hey, I’m on my son’s side, if you can’t be on his side too, then we just won’t talk anymore until this is cleared up.
I do not know if the following will make you feel any better, but it’s all true:
My first husband was just like yours, except less powerful. In the beginning of our separation, he somehow “collected” just about all our friends and aquaintances. I used to feel so scared, so “ganged up on”. But over the next two years, he cheated, lied to, stole from, etc. every single one of em, slept with their wives, stole their identities, it was terrible. Pretty soon there were a small crowd of them that would show up at my door to show support, saying, “we should have listened”. They nicknamed themselves the “Don haters club”. It was all very frightening, humiliating and embarrassing, but I have to say, if you give these kind of people enough rope, they WILL hang themselves.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Inthebreach,
I’m not answering for Dr. Leedom, but I agree with Kat’s statement “If you give these kinds of people enough rope, they WILL hang themselves.”
My Ps had ganged up on me, and targeted my elderly mother as a victim of financial fraud, I tried and tried to convince her that they were con men, that I was NOT crazy and that they were after her money. They had convinced her, who had never taken a cent from her, that I was the one after her money while she was supporting them with gifts and loans and other funds.
Eventually when I could do no more to convince my mother and one of my sons that the rest were up to no good, I just had to let the situation fester on its own, and in only a few months it became very apparent that I WAS RIGHT, and two of the Ps were arreste (my daughter in law and her boy friend) and went to jail, then prison. Sometimes it takes longer than that before they show their true colors, but don’t despair that they will show their colors.
NO CONTACT (ignoring them as much as possible) not reacting to their insults and jibes, remaining “calm” on the outside even if you are really reeling inside, but giving the appearance of calm at least, will help you and disarm them. They love to see you rattled, and upset, appearing irrational and “crazy” (even though they are the ones tha tmade you that way!)
Right now your daughters are not seeing things the way they really are, but THEY WILL because eventually all Ps mistreat their victims that they “woo” at the start. Just protect yourself and your son. The P will eventually be the UNDOING of himself.
You are in a healing place here with some pretty smart “cookies” here to offer support and possibly advice if you need or want it. Right now the ONLY people in the world that are in need of your services are YOU and your SON, and so TAKE CARE OF THE TWO OF YOU, and let the rest go for now. You can’t take care of the world, but you can take care of yourself and your prescious son. Focus your strength and energies on that. They try to make us “crazy” with so many different things undermining our self confidence and strength, but focusing your strength on the most important things (yourself and your son) will help you win, and then they will be their own undoing. ((((hugs)))) and always prayers for your safety and healing. Oxy
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kat_o_nine_tales says:
James.. yeah the predictability. I should remember this. Right now they are all p/o’d at me for not drifting sadly away. I listed every single one of his online profiles as a warning to women in the area. I don’t see this is a real big threat to him if he is really “in love and getting married”, but he sees it as one. He is trying the old routine of “showing me sympathy while simultaneously pumping me for info”, while she is outraged because I guess she thinks I’m talking about her or something, which I never did or even would do.
I wrote that his favorite targets are plain and/or overweight middle aged women, and on there yelling that she’s not plain, overweight or middle aged. Of course I wrote that about his usual victims, it didn’t have anything to do with her.. I don’t know what the heck she looks like.
But I do get a little bit of a lol sometimes about the predictability. Especially with my 2nd husband. He is so predictable we can always tell what he’s going to do next. I have to be in his life because our son is living with him most of the time.
Problem is he wants to take it too far, like picking out my boyfriends for me (or rather keeping veto power). He wants to make sure no other man will come near his son without his say-so. Just how exactly he thinks he has any control over this, I do not know.
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