Manage anxiety using understanding and conscious intention
Did you know people actually have two brains? We have a conscious brain that produces thoughts, ideas and intention and we have an automatic, unconscious brain that produces impulses. There are advantages to having two brains. The conscious thinking brain makes us smart and deliberate but the problem is it is slow. On the other hand, the unconscious automatic brain is fast, but the impulses that arise from it are sometimes undesirable. Automatic impulses do not always serve us well.
Have you ever been walking in the woods and seen something that looked like a snake out of the corner of your eye? Notice that your heart pounds and you have that alarmed feeling even before you are aware of having “seen” something. If you had to wait to fully process the image of the snake in order to react defensively, you would likely get bitten. So the mind makes you jump at a few snake-shaped sticks because that way you will be sure to avoid stepping on the real snakes.
The part of the brain that automatically senses threats is the amygdala. The amygdala receives sensory information from every sense. It “filters” this information and automatically “decides” which perceptions represent something that is a threat to safety. Notice that the amygdala is a dynamic or changing structure. If you are relaxed and happy you are less jumpy than if you are “on edge” because you just got into an argument or drank a cup of coffee.
The job of the amygdala is to take its crude sensory perceptions and to energize you to take action to protect yourself. It energizes you because it directly controls your sympathetic nervous system and stimulates the release of stress hormones. Did you know that stress hormones like adrenalin and cortisol are actually stimulants? The action of adrenalin is similar to that of cocaine. By the way, just like stimulants can be addicting, stress which releases these stimulants can also be “addicting” for some people.
The amygdala is not just a single brain structure. It actually has many parts to it. There are different classes of things we associate with threat and fear. The main two classes of feared situations are social and non-social. There are some very outgoing people who climb mountains and yet are anxious at social gatherings. Similarly there are some socially outgoing people who are easily frightened by heights or other non-social stimuli.
People get their fears two ways. The basic activity level of the amygdala is set by genetics. That is why anxiety disorders run in families. Studies show that timid people suffer from an over active amygdala. Fearfulness can also be acquired because like I said the amygdala is a dynamic structure. PTSD is a disorder where there is an enhanced threat response.
Now here is the important part that you may not have considered. What motivational systems does your amygdala interface most with? What are you likely to do in response to threat? There are people whose amygdala is over-connected to dominance motivation. When they perceive a threat they go on the attack. There are other people whose amygdala is connected to affection motivation so when they perceive a threat, they seek out social support. For others, the anxiety is free floating and they freeze up.
If you want to observe firsthand the amygdala at work, watch the dog behavior shows on Animal Planet. As you may have read, my daughter fosters dogs and so I have had the privilege of seeing threat behaviors and how they create dog dysfunction. The dogs also help us to understand how genetics and experience interact to shape threat responses. First let’s consider the grey hound. These dogs are very fearful but in general their fear system connects with their social affiliation system. As a result, they are on average low in aggression. Both of the grey hounds we fostered ran away from our dachshund. I think these dogs have been specifically bred for non-aggression and that is why they tend to cower when afraid.
This week, we had the good luck to meet the Dog Whisperer of Connecticut he explained to me why some working dogs bite people. The answer as to why some working dogs are vicious has relevance to anxiety in humans so stick with me. My new friend raises dogs who protect us by sniffing out bombs and narcotics in the airports. He showed us some terrific dogs and demonstrated their strong temperaments that make them ideal to do their jobs. The dogs with ideal temperaments have a very strong “play” drive and they like to have fun. But they also have to be sensitive to threat so that they will alert to danger. When they sense danger, they have to be energized to face it playfully. My new friend explained to me that vicious dogs are a by-product of the desire to breed dogs that have both play drive and an adequate threat response. If a dog is easily threatened but doesn’t play it only cowers if it is like a grey hound or aggresses if it is a working dog. So what our instincts tell us to do with our fear is important.
Like people dogs also have two brains, so they can be trained some. However the unconscious brain of a dog is always stronger. If a dog has an overactive amygdala and reactive aggression it will always be potentially dangerous. To help these dogs, we need to keep them in a calm environment or give them medication.
Fortunately people can, through conscious experience modify their genetics. People who are born with social anxiety can use psychological training to reduce and even eliminate their automatic responses. In people the amygdala is dynamic.
To manage anxiety we must first identify and understand it with our conscious minds. Then we must take conscious steps to face our fears while relaxing our bodies. Repeatedly facing a feared situation causes the amygdala to stop reacting to that situation as threatening. Avoiding a feared situation only reinforces the fear. The amygdala is rewarded by avoidance behavior and senses that it did it did a good job when we avoid.
Now stop a moment to consider how anxiety operates in you personally. Are you like a vicious dog who snaps at everyone when you get wound up? Are you like a grey hound who tries to cope by cozying up to a friend? Or do you just avoid everything and everyone? My friend who is a Buddhist says, “A human life represents a great opportunity because only humans have such a great capacity for choice.” Although the pull of anxious impulses is very strong we humans luckily do not have to be ruled by them. We can use our large intentional brains to make choices. The choices we make will then shape the structure of our unconscious minds.
Next week psychopathic anxiety.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
James says:
I assume that this amygdale is the cause of our flight or fight responses?
When I feel anxiety coming on I first try to understand the source of it. Much of my anxiety is of the unknown. Like if I am unemployed how long will It take to find a job. If something falls into my lap and I don’t completely understand all the dynamitic of the problem then boom, anxiety sets in. In short most of my anxiety is fear of the unknown. Ways that I try to deal with this is by telling myself not to worry (yes, I know doesn’t always works) then I will try (faith) to give it to God and ask him for strength and understanding of this unknown problem. Another method is too use biorhythm. In short controlled breathing, heart rate and so on. Of course biorhythm can only work in a relaxed conscious state of mind. Anxiety is a source of stress and we all know stress is a true killer. Aggression I know releases these hormones (adrenalin and cortical) which the body quickly uses up. So with that in mind, I try to be assertive which allow “smaller” doses of these hormones, which can then be more, controlled. Also when we are aggressive we lose some control the event and over ourselves. But when being assertive we can maintain some sense of control of the situation and allow the other (threat) person the ability/opportunity to do the same.
Well again your writing is very insightful and helpful. Thank you!
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 4:05am
TrishNJ says:
This is all very interesting to me….myself I can say I have had all three responses to stress…I’ve been angry…I’ve looked for support and I have frozen up….there was a time in my life where I spent 6 months in bed with depression/anxiety and PTSD.
Life can be a tough lesson to learn…but we are human beings and we having the unconscious brain and the conscious brain….now have the added responsibility to use the conscious brain to learn about the unconscious….otherwise life would be disasterous….because dominance modivation would ultimately win…..We need natural born leaders…but we also need the followers….TV’s dog whisperer says there are 7 followers to each dog pack leader…..and a dog’s bad behavior is all about anxiety….because they need the pack leader to be the human caretaker in their lives…the food giver. Unfortunately alot of dog owners are not pack leaders….they are followers…..and again all followers with no leader….potentially disasterous. Again like all the “sages” say….balance is the key….but in this situation balance is 7-1…..in the human world we see, for instance, in a school room 1 teacher per 20 students. Some argue that there should be less students per teacher. But for aruguments sake 1 in 20 is balance.
Now, to get back to the conscious brain that humans have…..and the responsibility we have as a race. It is the very essence that make humans the highest animal on the planet….and therefore the most responsible….so if a human being is a sociopath….are we to say they because they have no conscience they are not human…they are pure animal! I’m not sure if they have no conscionce or if they do and choose not to engage…..They are very intelligent.
Personally I have learned about a sociopath after being involved with one or two…..but I am too, very intelligent….but I was raised by an intelligent family with good morals. My family stressed education, hard work, family and God. There is no question in my mind, my heart and my soul what is the proper way to live.
However…a sociopaths damage is very deep…..after being afflicted by the first one….the father of my daughter…who dragged me in and out of the family court system…as he promissed he would distroy me….I faught his lies and manipulation for years…..which began the damage to my family…and I learned some of the tools of the sociopath who kicked me to the curb….and I got sick….depressed and on the edge with my nerves! Then after all of that I met the 2nd sociopath who I thought was lifting me out of the gutter but instead “attempted” to crush me even further into the curb and his boots were very sharp…what he didn’t count on was the brain and the spiritual connection God had given to me….these were two men without conscience…who didn’t care at all about mine or my daughters life….There was no “love” for us! It was all about them and power…….
We tend to forget about being spiritual beings too…..we talk about being human here….scientific study has recently confirmed one of Einsteins theorys of parallell universes….I’ve recently watched it in a documentary on the science channel…..the numbers equate….we do have parallell universes….they say energy exists in one of them….God is light! Need I say any more…..I am a massage therapist who studies the healing process of prayer and bringing light into the session! That is what kept me alive….and that was from God…..so for all people out there who are suffering from the affects of a sociopath….with God you will perservere…because there is an order and there are rules to follow….and God has revealed his rules to many who have tapped into the parallell universe…the sages…the profits….the healers…I believe God gave us all a conscience…..some have opted to depress it so there is only a thread left…..it is everyones responsibility to find balance. To loose your conscience is to loose “love” to loose love is to loose your soul……..and the sages….the profits and healers know there is a “hell”….is it permanent or not….that doesn’t matter to me…..staying out of it matters to me!
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 9:44am
OxDrover says:
Thank for your this article Dr. L. I am currently re-reading “Emotional Intelligence” which goes into this part of brain reactions to danger.
Dr. Daniel Goleman, who wrote the book, states that because the amygdala (the more primitive part of the brain) gets a sensory message a micro-second before the prefrontal cortex (the thinking part of the brain) our “over emotional” reactions to perceived threats is because the amygdala jumps to conclusions on partial evidence.
He goes on to state “Small wonder we can have so little insight into the murk of our more explosive emotions, especially while they still hold us in thrall. The Amygdala can react in a delirium of rage or fear before the cortex knows what is going on because such raw emotion is triggered independent of, and prior to thought.”
He also quoted some studies that showed that the amygdala holds “emotional memories” separate from and possibly not even perceived by the rest of the brain. (PTSD?)
The biological aspects of our reactions to perceived threats are very interesting to me. When I was in school years ago, there was a researcher at the VA in Ft. Roots, at Little Rock, AR associated with the University medical school there who bred two races of dogs (starting with one litter) one was very aggressive and the other group were totally fearful of any and everything. His research sparked my interest in the heritability of aggression and I culled out aggressive and nervous animals and their offspring in my cattle herd over the years.
I think it is so important that we understand our own biological quirks as well as our own emotional and thinking responses in order to use our logical brains in the best way to take care of our emotional selves.
Thank you for this very interesting post.
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 9:48am
OxDrover says:
Trish,
I think we posted at the same time, your post is quite good, and I totally agree about the spiritual aspect of our healing. The mental, emotional, physical and spiritual aspects of our healing are all separate, yet all one, I think.
To neglect one of those aspects leaves us, I think, not whole. James made a great analogy on another thread that we are like the characters in the Wizard of Oz, with the feeling that we have no brain, no heart and no courage—they are there, we just don’t know that they are. When we “find” these “lost” parts we become complete! The Ps somehow convince us that THEY know that we do not have these things, and somehow we come to accept their assessment. It is only when we get away from them (NC if possible) that we can start to look for and find our “missing parts” and put ourselves back together–complete. Whole.
Thank you.
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 10:02am
TrishNJ says:
Thank you OxDrover,
you have given so much to my healing…and I thank Donna Anderson for this web site and for being where she is today….because since I have met her…my life has opened up…levels….and I thank Dr. Laine Leedom for giving of her time and education to me and others so we can grow…and I thank God first and foremost…In the truth is God! Don’t ever forget that! Through everything I have been through I always knew that the truth would prevail….even when the lies seemed to be winning….I knew eventually the truth would prevail! I think deep down inside we all have this knowledge.
When I was in the deepest of deep pain and suffering…I felt I had lost everything….but I never lost “God”….I thought I was close to death…than I would soon have cancer and die….I was angry because I was a good person and I couldn’t understand why this was happening to me…I had to leave and be alone….and fight without the support of family….they were in a different world than me….if I had stayed around them I would have died….because as low as I was…there was absolutely no support….and I am sure that they had had enough of watching my pain….they could not even imagine the pain I was in…..they do not even know the things I know and all of you know about this pain…..in the end my life was between me and God. I could have died! And I am so sure that some of you know that feeling! But I prayed and I ask God for life so I can have a relationship with my daughter again! This picture is not complete yet! It is just begining to unfold!
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 11:39am
James says:
Trish
Good point between the spiritual and the physical connection we should have. Some sense of balance is the main theme for many religions. Like lets say the ling and yang concept? Research has showed that if a person is emotionally healthy then the body benefit’s too. I believe that if we are spiritually healthy, our emotions benefit. Kind of a give and take.
One thing that I learned while I served in the arm forces was that “there is no atheist in a fox hole”. Taking this concept and belief I believe that when we go thru this “toxic” relationship with our sociopathic abuser. That sometime during and/or after we may discover/rediscover our belief system. Attending to our spiritual nature that we might have let lay down on the sideway or just ignored. A spiritual reawaking or discovery. Can I say? That maybe this is just another blessing from having suffered so much from our ex s?
Another comment on your post about parallel universes. Not sure if you mean that there (wish I saw the documentary) is two universes which is different when it comes to the law of the cosmos i.e. that gravity might work with a new and/or altered law? Anyway I am getting off the point. You see I too believe that Einstein’s theory on energy is also correct. That energy can’t be destroyed but only changed or altered. Many people believe that we have a soul correct? And that we might live on in some other form after we die. We know that when a person/animal dies the body loses 21 grams of weight. That (which I believe is) our “soul” and/or spiritually being is free when our bodies die. Okay then if “energy” can’t be destroyed only changed or altered. And then believing that our soul/spiritual being is energy that can’t be destroyed only changed or altered. Then with this hypostasis were does this energy go?
I know I am getting off the main theme of this post but this really bugs me. So with that stated I am sorry. One last story that I would like to share.
A little boy builds a wall of sticks around a caterpillar and set the sticks on fire. When the incest felt the heat crawled to each side of the wall only to find that all sides of it on fire. Knowing that escape was impossible crawled to the middle of its burning prison and then looked up. Moral of the story would be that sometimes the only hope for salvation is in God.
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 12:09pm
Beverly says:
No-one can take your soul, your energy. The energy is all enduring and infinite. One cannot say ‘where’ it goes, the ‘where’ question is too limited for the expansiveness that the soul feels and travels. We can only explain and converse in our limited way. The soul is ‘housed’ in the body as a transist vehicle and affected by life events, but not eradicated. Energy cannot be destroyed, but transmuted and transformed.
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 12:29pm
TrishNJ says:
ugh….only a sociopath would build a burning wall of sticks around a caterpillar….but I get the analogy James!
look for the documentary….unfortunately I am not a scientist…but I believe in scientists….and their quest for truth…..I have just taken the leap of faith
And you don’t need to apologise for getting off the main theme….it’s all a discussion for the purpose of mending our broken health…so there
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 12:31pm
OxDrover says:
Going back to James’ wonderful Wizard of Oz analogy—theycould only take our brains, our hearts, and our courage IF WE ALLOW IT—all we have to do to get them back is to BELIEVE we can—then do it!
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 12:44pm
JaneSmith says:
Holy Smokes, I love this website! You people are wonderful! Youre insight, intelligence, your fierce, beautiful hearts & minds have offered tremendous support and healing for me. I can’t even express the depth of appreciation I feel for each and every one of you. I’ve been reading LoveFraud for months now, going all the way back in the archives to read all the harrowing stories you all wrote. I have cried buckets of tears for the unbelievable (yet actual) life’s experiences many of you have suffered. And continued to suffer until you each said..”that’s it!! I’ve had enough of your soul sucking!!” BRAVO!! Although I realize the road to your own individual liberations from cruelty and pain were bumpy, pot hole ridden and hazardous to travel, you succeeded. And continue to do so.
I’ve had MANY runins with Ns, Ps (bio father was P) and the whole frikkin spectrum of personality disorders. They just take, take, take, demand, demand, devalue until youre standing frozen in one place, bewildered, lost, in total despair and confusion. The screwed up men I’ve know just wanted me to be this sweet, pretty little package only there for their pleasure and amusement. They absolutely did NOT wish for me to have any of my own thoughts or ideas. I was there to serve their needs and bullocks to my own (Im not from the UK..I love saying that word!..haha)!! Pagh! I am here to say that I too have had MORE than enough and I refuse to surrender myself to their vicious crap ever again!
Most graciously I say, The Creater blessed me with fire to go along with a soft heart. Otherwise I think I would have succumbed years ago to my own anguish. But, with mind, body, and soul I reached out to him with humility asking for succour from these evil beings in sheeps clothing who walk amongst us. And…he did!! Wasn’t instantaneous, which i knew because he granted us free will and we are responsible for the choices we make in life. But I am spiritually reawakened and renewed and continue to grow more & more through prayer, this fantastic website, informative books on personality disorders, and inspirational/spiritual books as well.
Thank you!! Thank you!! Readers/commentors on Lovefraud. All of amaze me with your strength and wonderful, caring hearts. I see how even though some of you are still working through your own disillusionment & pain caused by childhood traumas and then a P, you STILL take the time to comfort others. You are truly beautiful people.
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 4:59pm
OxDrover says:
Welcome, Jane…glad you are on the road to healing and I hope that Donna’s website has been as much comfort to you as it has been to me.
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 6:51pm
OxDrover says:
Free,
Being “emotional” isn’t a bad thing at all, it is when we let our “emotions” rule us, like a runaway horse that can’t see to the left or right, but just plunges blindly on and “over the cliff,” that emotions become problematic.
Do you remember the old question when we were kids, about what happens when the “immovable object is pushed by the irresistable force?” Well, something has to give! LOL
I’m still “very emotional”—I cry at Lassie movies, weddings, funerals, and at happy times too—but not the gut wrenching sobs of continual grief any more. I also laugh spontaneously, and get gushy at a litter of new kittens or the pasture full of calves and foals. I wouldn’t trade that for the “sterile” inner life of the P or the negativity of others I know. Viva la emotions!
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 10:56pm
James says:
“Hah! Just realised the wicked witch was a sociopath!!!”
OMG, your right!!!! free and her her flying monkeys are her minions.
Run Dorothy! Run!!!
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 11:19pm
James says:
All That I can say is what a different its been without my ex sociopath.
If you knew me during my time spent with my ex sociopath.
You would have ask yourself “what wrong with this guy”
If you knew me during the break up with my ex sociopath
You would have ask yourself “Man, stay away from this guy, he is weird!”
If you knew me today, you might ask yourself, “he is a honest person, I might want to get to know him better”.
I went from denial……
to despair……
then to the bright warm feeling of hope!
All I want to say is thank you all and each one of you for being there for me and Thank you Lord for never leaving my side, not once! Even when I only saw One set of footprints in the sand….
FOOTPRINTS IN THE SAND
~One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
~ Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky. ~
~In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand. ~
~ Sometimes there were two sets of footprints, other times there were one set of footprints. ~
~ This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life, when I was suffering from anguish, sorrow or defeat, I could see only one set of footprints. ~
~So I said to the Lord, “You promised me Lord, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always.~
~But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life there have only been one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most, you have not been there for me?”~
~The Lord replied, “The times when you have seen only one set of footprints in the sand, is when I carried you.”~
Mary Stevenson
Saturday, 17 May 2008 @ 11:45pm
James says:
Welcome Jane,
Yes. I agree that LoveFraud is the best web site That I have ever found. Were else can a person go to get information, education and help in the healing process. LoveFraud is a God send for me. Insomuch that I come here to
Cry
learn
listen
understand
heal
and grow….
With that stated thank you all that allows LoveFraud to be all that it can be!
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 12:03am
LilOrphan says:
Free:
I’m with you on the emotional person thing. To the point where my therapist suggested I look up Williams Syndrome because he thinks maybe I have it. It’s a genetic anomaly where part of chromosome seven is broken off and a person ends up with certain distinctive facial features and a real disparity in learning ability - great with words, awful with math and spatial stuff - or other learning disabilities.
With Williams, a person is characterized by being over-friendly, overly emotive, overly empathetic and filled with anxiety. There are other things, too, both physical and emotional, that fit me.
I cry at everything too. The girls used to make fun of me for it, when they were growing up, because I’d cry over Santa at the Macy’s Thanksgiving parade, cry at all their own musical events (so cute and growing up so much each year), cry at sad things…
Have never really been ashamed of it, although it is a wee bit embarrassing from time to time because people not like that just don’t GET IT. My closest friend - who is rapidly becoming not my closest friend by her actions and statements -is pretty hard-nosed. So are the only two men I’ve ever had real long term r’ships with - both of them very cold people.
Why?? That’s what needs figuring out. Why on earth would someone like that be attracted to men who are completely out of touch with their own emotions?
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 7:20am
LilOrphan says:
Watching House last night I was really struck by House telling the really emotional, caring Cameron that she has a need to “fix” things, that she cannot accept situations that are lacking in hope, and that is why she is attracted to House, because he is “damaged” and that it is not love that propels her, but her own “need.”
I recognized that in me, as he said it. All my life, conflating love and need, bringing my neediness down on the people I love by being a rescuer. And that doing this, while trained into me, was not really part of love — just part of what I learned, growing up. My role in the family, the singular way I have of controlling situations - by care-taking. And it is a form of being controlling, even though it doesn’t appear that way to the outside world.
To take the blame. To be the rescuer. To care-take on everyone, rather than letting them just BE. My way of trying to make things the way I want them - fixed.
Then having kids of my own, I did it to them in a way, too: always taking up the slack, always trying to hold up the relationship at all costs, always active rather than just appreciating them for who they are completely and letting them flounder - not jumping in to rescue.
And while I think it stems from certain really good characteristics, caring, having empathy, it also comes with its shadow, as Jung would say.
My “shadow” self is desperately afraid of expressing anger, of not doing enough. My shadow believes she is not lovable or enough just by existing, so I do these overt good deeds out of both a sense of love and caring but with a subconscious desire to have someone return them.
Expectations, and those that cannot ever be met because even if they were, I’d be liable to think someone were just “paying back” rather than showing love.
I can’t expect everyone to act like I do. In fact, that’s not really honoring who they are as individuals, by trying to “fix” every situation or issue, mine, ours or theirs, or to catch them whenever they fall.
Accepting them as they are really requires me to accept even the parts of myself that make me uncomfortable - anger, bad treatment, being overly relied-upon to pick up the slack, even the controlling nature of being a “fixer.”
I also suspect this is why I am attracted to certain types of men, because they are not fixers, not rescuers, and they have the ability to let things exist without trying to know all the answers or the outcomes ahead of time.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 9:01am
OxDrover says:
If you look at the “plot” of any great play, movie, story, fairy tale, etc. there is ALWAYS a psychopath in every story. Some of these stories are 100s of years old—there are stories of psychopaths in the Bible and stories of enablers—there are stories of how victims tested their persecutors to see if the persecutors had changed their behavior and repented.
Joseph, who was sold into slavery by his brothers, when he found them years later when he was second to the pharaoh, he didn’t immediately say “Oh, brothers, it’s me!” He first tested them to see if they were the same men who had sold him off–to see if they had learned and changed. He had already forgiven them in his heart, but he wanted to see what kind of men they had become before he resumed any relationship with them.
Then King David with his psychopathic son Absalom. David enabled this man for years, and didn’t stop his narcissistic behavior or his plots against the throne–even when Absalom went to war against him, David told his generals to be “gentle with the young man”—-
Jezebel was obviously a psychopath. Delilah, and various kings and others. The Bible is filled with stories of people who messed up their personal lives as well as spiritual lives because they were either psychopaths or enabled them.
The amazing thing about King David to me is that though he had many faults–murder, adultery etc. when his sins were pointed out to him HE DID NOT BLAME THEM ON SOMEONE ELSE, but repented and CHANGED HIS WAYS. Even with the horrible things he had done (though typical of a king of his time) God still said “he is a man after my own heart”—
No matter what we have done, we can change our ways, improve and grow if we are willing to accept responsibility for our behavior.
We can quit being fixers without losing our compassion for someone.
What for example, would you think of a mother who was so upset every time her toddler fell and bumped its head that she decided she just couldn’t take seeing these bruises, so she would CARRY that child where ever it wanted to go so it would NEVER experience the pain of falling and bumping its head?
Well, when the child was 100 pounds and she was still carrying it on her back so it wouldn’t bump its head learning to walk—of course we can easily see that i s outrageous, but yet in smaller ways we try to take away the pain that goes with growth, and when we do we take away the growth as well.
There comes a point too, that when someone (any role) in the family becomes so counter productive to the family or relationship that it is like they are chopping holes in the bottom of the family “canoe”—you can bail and bail but if they are allowed to sit there with their ax and continue to chop holes in the bottom of the canoe, you can’t paddle, you can’t bail, and you can’t repair the “canoe” fast enough to keep it afloat. The ONLY option you have at that time is to toss them overboard or sink with them.
Can you look at families you know where one “bad” child (a psychopath) is continually enabled for years by a parent who keeps putting up bail money, paying for rehab after rehab, etc. to the point that the parents are pauper-ed and emotionally destroyed? I only have to look as far as my mirror, though I never went bail or rehab, I did continue to emotionally pauper myself for my psychopathic son. His only appreciation was to try to have me killed for my trouble because I cut him out of my will when I saw the truth finally.
Making a conscious decision that I will not enable others ever again—and then “monitoring myself” to see that I don’t fall back into this pattern which “seems natural” to me was one of the first steps toward healing. “I’m gonna let the kid learn to walk–even if he bumps his head over and over.” I can’t help him by carrying him everywhere.
I’m “gonna set boundaries” for people in my life–close friends and family as well as those not so close. If I don’t, I might as well have my first tattoo—right across my forehead that says j “walk on me.” Or on my back that says “door mat.”
Yet, I don’t want to go overboard in the opposite direction and start being like the psychopaths–everything’s all about me. I need to find that balance between caring and self preservation.
Miss Manners (Judith Martin) says “one of the major mistakes people make is that they think manners are only for the expression of happy ideas. There’s a while range of behavior that can be expressed in a mannerly way. That’s what civilization is all about, doing it in a mannerly and not an antagonistic way. One of the places we went wrong was the naturalist Rousseauean movement of the Sixties in which people said “Why can’t you just say what’s on your mind?” In civilization there have to be some restraints. If we followed every impulse, we’d be killing each other.”
I think we all know “what good manners are”—and when anyone treats us in a way that isn’t “good manners” then we shouldn’t endure it. There seems to be some “rule” in our society that we treat people outside our family with “good manners” but those inside our intimate relationships are fair game for being treated with poor manners.
Also, if we tolerate this behavior we can be sure that it will continue. Just as if a two year old that starts to bite to get their way is never shown that “biting is not okay” they have no incentive to quit.
The common denominator in “us” (victims) seems to be that most of us are/were fixers and tolerated “poor manners” in others, while trying to maintain good manners in ourselves, until we reached the point we were quivering blobs of pain.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 9:33am
Beverly says:
I have to join in this discussion, because good manners are high on my list of values. ‘Manners maketh Man’. My exN pretended to have the high qualities he knew I held in esteem. But because I had the good manner NOT to comment or react when I knew he was twisting me round corners, he thought I was a fool. People with poor manners and values take advantage of people who are good hearted and thoughtful - I find. People who have compassion and good manners are thoughtful and value my qualities in a beautiful sort of way.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 12:17pm
OxDrover says:
I think if you get to the BASIC concept of manners, and look at how our families of origin (FOO) treated manners WITHIN the family vs with OUTSIDE the family if there is a big difference, then there is “something not right.”
Were you expected to always exhibit good manners no matter what someone else did, but not expect good manners in return?
Who in your family was allowed to behave badly (no manners) and who was expected to behave “always politely.?”
It took me a while to realize that my mother was ALWAYS the “soul of Ms Manners” EXCEPT to me! She would not set boundaries with anyone except me–and the main boundary she set for me was that I could not set boundaries with the “bad actors” in the family. She didn’t like me setting boundaries with anyone, but she tolerated that after a while, but absolutely NOT within the family–especially with her and her designees.
Yet, behind their backs, she bitched about their “bad behavior” (mainly to me) but never to their faces, and never set any boundaries at all that she would enforce.
It was ONLY after I went NC with her that I could “see the forest for the trees” and pull myself out of the “role” she had designated for me in the family…to see the “big picture.”
As long as I stayed too close to the situation, it felt “natural” and “normal” and I couldn’t see just how dysfunctional I HAD BEEN in participating in that “play” that was the “family script.”
It never even really occured to me that I had a CHOICE but to participate, that I COULD OPT OUT of my assigned role. NC wasn’t a real consideration of a possibility for living. I felt TRAPPED with no way out, when right in front of my very nose was the WAY OUT. I felt like James’ catipillar encircled with a wall of fire and it was getting very hot. I even felt like there was a “roof” of fire above me as well. When I finally realized that there was NOT a roof above me of fire (I finally looked UP and saw God’s escape hatch) I took that route, via NC. Only when I was outside the painful ring of fire could I see what had gone on for so long. How I was buying into the things that made me a perfect patsy for dysfunctional behavior in MYSELF allowing others to abuse me.
The way out was to STOP! HAULT! ALTO! QUIT! what I was doing, and the pain would go away, the abuse would cease.
But until I learned what I was doing to fuel the ring of fire I couldn’t put it out, and I couldn’t get out.
Looking back at how “helpless” and “hopeless” I felt—and actually was, because I didn’t realize that I was the root cause by allowing it. It doesn’t mean I think I deserved what the Ps did, I didn’t, but I ALLOWED it. By owning that, I can stop the pain, and stop falling repeatedly into the same trap.
A troop of Baboons is smart enough that if you use a trap on them to catch one, you won’t catch the second one in that troop with the same kind of trap. They are baboons for goodness sake and they learn from each other’s failures, I wasn’t even learning from my own failures. Now, I am I think, AT LEAST as smart as a baboon! LOL
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 12:24pm
Beverly says:
Dont you think that the shadow of the Mother is to try and readjust what was not right with her. I dont know where I got my sense of refinement and good manners. My mother did not instill that in me, but my Narcissistic Father was a person of perfection, everything had to be just so, but not a thinking of the other person kind of way. He used to tell me that I was too sensitive. Now I value that. for me good manners is a sign of refinement, not in a good breeding or monetary sense. I have met poor people who have a good sense of refinement. Who knows what goes back in our genes. I have met wealthy people who are rude and take it all for granted. But I think growing up disadvantaged made me feel that somehow I was less than everyone else. In the sixties, there werent many single mothers (my mother was) and I was one of the only single parent children at school, which somehow made feel inferior. Even now, as a single parent now, my next door neighbours hardly ever spoke to me, since the 8 years I have lived here, they had, I think, views about single mothers which are not good. But I have been a hard working and good mother and woman.
I think sometimes, we look at our lives in mirror to others and think ‘well my life doesnt seem up to much’ so maybe I am not as good as others. I do love my rebellious streak though - X
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 12:38pm
Beverly says:
I know several women who are in dysfunctional relationships and I ask them why are you putting up with it. They say that the relationship is better than no relationship at all. Where are they getting this template from. Their Mother, all sacrificing? One of the women, her Mother who is in her eighties is still married to a Man who is very deameaning. Why is this still happening in this age? I thought the liberation of the sixties had opened Womens’ eyes. But are we still under the spell of our Mothers?
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 12:49pm
Beverly says:
Im trying to wriggle out of my straightjacket. Dragonflies are my favourite insects. I am trying to move to a place where I can feel more myself and dare to reveal myself more to other people, my quirky, nature ways. Importantly I dont want to feel that because I have been in the minority or not had a conventional upbringing that I am no less valid (and much more interesting) than the mainstream.
My encounter with the exN made me realise just how much I was willing to subjugate myself for other people to the point I was just like a rag. But I am not a rag. I am a really lovely person and i want to celebrate my uniqueness.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 1:00pm
Beverly says:
I am on a roll today. An encounter with someone with personality disorder has to be a life changing event. Coupled with breast cancer, I feel like I have climbed quite a few mountains recently. I am a masculine type of woman - very strong and independent, but I never really valued my femininity. I realise my mother didnt value hers either, she allowed herself to be used and abused - but she was very tough, she had to be to bring up children alone with schizophrenia. This just all makes me realise where she was at, and where I am at.
I realise that my emotions - language of the soul - are my connection to who I have always been, and that I have learnt through my upbringing to disconnect from my inner world, my emotions, my intuition, (red flags) in the face of hardship. The next phase of my life, however long that will be, I will do my best to live in celebration and joy. I am sure life was supposed to be lived like that.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 1:11pm
JaneSmith says:
Thank you, Free, OxDrover
I don’t wish to interrupt the discussion going on, but I wanted to again express my gratitude to each and every one of you. OxDrover, I ordered & read Victor Frankles..”Man’s Search For Meaning”…because you had offered selections of that book on this website. I only read it when I was in a state of mind to be completely receptive to his experiences in a concentration camp. I didn’t munch on popcorn (as I usually do when I am reading) while reading it cause I thought that would be disrespectful. What a humbling experience for me! I can’t even imagine the life he barely lived for 3 years! And when he was freed, he left that camp with his soul and sanity intact! Truly amazing the power, strength of the human will to survive. Gotta have a rich spiritual life to help, grow through all the suffering, dont you think? Thank you for mentioning that book. I’m also now reading..”The Gift of Fear” which is horrifying yet fascinationg as well regarding our own intuitions and how to pay very, very close attention to it in an effort to protect ourselves, loved ones and stangers.
Free, I remember vividly reading your comments about your childhood and subsequent time with the Psychopath. I would like you to know that I truly empathize with you and the pain you suffered. I don’t wish to hurt you more by bringing this up, but I just wanted you to know I read it. And I care deeply for you & your stuggles and everyone else’s also. This website is a fellowship. A fellowship of caring, sharing, comfort and healing. It is so important, so significant for all of us to read the posts by Donna, ML, Dr. Steve, and Dr. Leedom and the comments presented for us. By doing so, I think we each of us realize how truly valuable we are as human beings. I know I am…now. Didn’t so much years ago, but now I know I am as significant in my existence as others are.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 1:49pm
OxDrover says:
Beverly, you are so RIGHT about manners and refinement.
A guy I know grew up the poorest of the poor in a family that took ignorance and low intelligence to some pretty significant levels, but though he can not even write his name, he is as refined a man as there is, his manners are wonderful as he knows them. He i s generous to a fault and would do anything in the world for another person. He is universally respected by all who know him.
The phrase “poor white trash” describes a lot of people with a lot of money! He isn’t one of them.
As far as I can tell, he doesn’t feel “inferior” to a soul, regardless of how much money power or position that they have.
I also grew up pretty poor, but I didn’t realize I was poor. My X-BF P didn’t grow up a whit “poorer” than I did, but he FELT poor, and felt that people with money looked down on “poor” people.
My maternal andfather (born in 1892) grew up in SHOCK! a family where there was a divorce. His mother was committed to a mental institution and died there in 1905 (for a dietary deficiency pelagra, which causes mental problems, she also had some sort of “female” cancer which was causing her incredible pain, and she roamed the woods at night screaming with the intractable pain) so he was doubly shamed. He was brought up by his father, who had been orphaned during the civil war and lived in hand-to-mouth poverty like many third-world people today.
When he was younger, my grandfataher didn’t have a pair of pants that didn’t have a patch on them and he was ashamed to wear them to town. After he became prosperous, and had a closet full of new pants, he no longer felt “ashamed” to go to town in a pair of patched work pants—because he knew he didn’t HAVE to wear them.
Sometimes our perceptions of “poverty” are very subjective. My grandfather was a good manager of his money and worked very hard and ended up with a large parcel of land that I live on now. It had been family land, but he bought it from various estates, from his father’s, aunts and uncles etc. He ended up dying a fairly wealthy man by his standards at least.
My divorce literally left me destitute, with a kid on each hip and no assets…but though I didn’t have any money, I managed, worked hard, put myself through the rest of my college degree and have worked like a dog since—without taking a dime from anyone. Yet, I have never felt “poor” just because I didn’t have money. My kids laugh that they didn’t know stores sold clothing until they were grown, they thought that you bought it in someone else’s front yard! Neither of my two boys (not counting the P) ever felt “poor” or that people with more money or things were “better than” they were. Both are good money managers, work hard, and are not “status conscious”—and they don’t judge others by “what they have” but by what they ARE.
I’ve been around several people in my life who were among the most wealthy people in the US and some of them are Ps and/or jerks, and others are just “people” who happen to have lots of money. BIG difference there.
I guess every girl-child in the South grew up knowing what “trashy” behavior is. It is funny now, looking back, that no matter how TRASHY some of our relatives acted, especially if they were male, that term was never applied to them.
Today lots of singing and movie stars behave in ways my grandmother would have instantly labeled “trashy ways” but it seems now that it is GLORIFIED in the media, and that being “famous” or “rich” gives you a license to act that way with impunity. Many of our young people try to emulate this behavior. I sometimes think that “Ms. Manners is dead” right along with God and Santa Claus.
But at least here, at my home, both Ms Manners and God and even Santa Claus are all alive and healthy even if the rest of the world thinks they are dead or never existed!
Beverly, you go Girl! You ARE ON A ROLL and you are one heck of a woman! I want to be just like you when I grow up! (((hugs)))))
PS. As far as being “tough”—personally I think a complete woman IS TOUGH, what man could have a baby? Being able to be independent and doing what you have to to survive is not “UN-feminine”—in my opinion at least.
I can and have: trained several teams of oxen to pull a wagon, can deliver a calf or a goat, slaugheter a hog, cure the meat, shoe a horse if I have to, break the horse, plow a garden with a horse, and plant, harvest, and process the food grown there…I write poetry, paint portraits and land scapes in oil, make pottery, weave, spin thread, knit, sew a bit, have published 3 books, can shoot a gun, hunt for food (I no longer hunt for recreation) cook over a wood fire, build a barn, plumb a house, roof a house, birth a baby, sew up a wound, comfort the dying, fly an airplane—”specialization is for insects.”
And now, I can also set boundaries! Whoopie! And, I think I can thank the Ps in my life for making me see the necessity of doing so for ME! Of all the things I’ve done in my life, I think this past year has been the most significant growth and learning I have ever accomplished. And it gives me a lot of satisfaction. Cheers Beverly, here’s to your continued good health and healing!
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 1:51pm
Beverly says:
OxDrover. You sound one helluva woman!! I love nature and animals and it takes stamina and fortitude to do what you do and your background has certainly endowed you with strength and conviction that comes through in your words. Lets celebrate our transformation. Hence the reference to dragonflies and butterflies that live a major part of their lives in another form only to be set free, on the wing, radiant in the most beautiful of colours.
Buddhists say that the most difficult people are our greatest teachers. I used to say that to my exN, and he used to look at me mystified LOL. Because he wouldnt budge an inch in his selfishness, it forced me to see where I was too slack and where I was too rigid. He didnt realise that whilst he was spinning me a dance, I was learning off the back of him and he could NOT understand it.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 2:12pm
Beverly says:
Oh, one other thing. I bought a secondhand book about recovering from cancer and there are alot of references to Victor Frankle in it. Basically saying, that when people gave up in their heads, their physical form (cells have consciousness) followed suit.
Sunday, 18 May 2008 @ 2:16pm
Beverly says:
Free - Your friend’s neediness over rode her intuition. We’ve all been there! (((Hugs)))
Monday, 19 May 2008 @ 12:01pm
JaneSmith says:
Free,
You said it took you 35 years to realize you were accepting your part in being a victim. Well, I believe that only through our suffering can we reach enlightenment. IF we are receptive, accepting of ourselves and a willingness to change, to be flexible with our newfound knowledge, our experiences only then can we CHOOSE to stay on the path of righteousness
It’s not the time it took for you to love yourself, to understand how important a person you are and that you never, ever deserved to be victimized, but it’s the FACT that you finally KNOW you are. That you became resolved in searching for the truth, however painful that may be (but oh so liberating, eh?) and in the process of seeking, you now realize WHO you are, maybe broken but still a radiant, wonderful woman.
I believe that each of us has our own specific journey through life, and it’s how we utilize the lessons we learn from our experiences, whether positive or negative, to evolve into finer human beings. To serve a purpose, whatever that purpose is for each of us.
Hey, there are many folks who simply refuse to grow, to evolve, they choose to live in a perpetual state of denial to the truth, and I can’t imagine going back to that type of existence EVER! We are who we are. And I do thank the Lord for granting me eyes that now see, ears that now hear, and a heart that has always felt deeply, but focused on wrong, undeserving people. And you know the saying…”better to have loved, than to never have loved at all”…? To be capable of deep, pure love, the most powerful force in the universe, of people, critters, nature, music, art, everything in this beautiful world is a BILLION times more fulfilling, profound than the empty, hollow, shallow, miserable existence of Psychopaths. Oh, I don’t doubt for one single minute that they are miserable creatures. They simply don’t have the capacity for introspection, self-evaluation to comprehend the truth.
Thank you for sharing your insight, your wisdom, your struggle for self-affirmation with me and LoveFraud. I DO value you and don’t you forget it!! *hug*
Monday, 19 May 2008 @ 12:43pm
alohatraveler says:
Free,
Trust your instincts about RED FLAGS…
Remember… NO CONTACT.
wink wink
Aloha
Monday, 19 May 2008 @ 1:37pm
JaneSmith says:
I just reread my comment and I sound like a preachy, little know-it-all! Get over myself, right? Wasn’t my intention at all. These are beliefs I’ve learned from 3 years of search & discover from every avenue possible. Especially from daily, hourly prayer.
I have healed my spirit, my heart from the damage wrought by the nefarious lovers/family members in my life. It takes a determination of will and constant internal coaching on my part to maintain my self love.
Nevertheless, just last year I was involved with 2 men who may or may not have personality disorders, but the signs were there, glaring at me in bright yellow neon, and I couldn’t avoid them. I left both of them without a backward glance early on in the dating period. One of them had the audacity to call me back 2 weeks after I left, using as an excuse that I left a dvd at his house. How insulting to my intelligence his action was! I flat out told him to never call me again for as long as he lives!! And…he didn’t. I guess he was on the less crazy making level of personality disorders…haha.
I know I’ll never be completely immune to duplicity, deception from bad folks. But, if I think I’m being deceived, I’ll split. No explanations, no stated reasons. Just…by-by.
Monday, 19 May 2008 @ 5:23pm
James says:
OxDrover
Thanks for pointing this out in the bible. I too see so much of humanity and the human factor in it. Great book guess that’s why it the number one best seller now and for years to come! Two of my favorite personalities (lack for a better word) are King David and Joseph. How I loved to read their story and what inspiration they gave me concerning my own life.
Monday, 19 May 2008 @ 8:28pm
alohatraveler says:
Free,
I was referring to your “friend” on the other thread.
No Contact.
:o)
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 2:54am
Beverly says:
JaneSmith, I thought that what you had written was eloquently put - the good intention was uppermost and evident. No-one is immune from a brush with someone with personality disorder given that they are opportunists.
Unfortunately the romantic veneer they spin at the beginning of the relationship is all part of the ‘grooming’, this becomes the FOG that confuses and disorientates us. Luckily you sidestepped straight out of it - Ha, mine used that phony ‘Ive left something round your house’ trick!!
Free, Yikes, girl, we were all watching - you know where you are truly supported ((hugs)) -
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 4:33am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Free:
What a great sayings! Perhaps for magnets:
To stop being a victim, stop being a volunteer! AND
Evolve don’t revolve!
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 4:35am
Beverly says:
I like that ‘evolve dont revolve’ . But of course testing that we have truly evolved comes in different formats, some of which is not to be taken THAT seriously.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 4:43am
Beverly says:
Speaking of humour - I had this picture in my mind - thousands of cartoon eyes in the dark, all blinking and watching - and wondering what was coming next!!. (((Hugs)))
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 5:25am
Beverly says:
Dear Free. LOL Dont be embarrassed, WE were all watching, but we KNOW what is right. One thing I learnt from the narcissist - master of manipulation and cunning, is that sometimes NO REPLY is the strongest reply you can make to avoid taking the bait and assessing what the ‘climate’ is. It is always easiest to see into the ‘circle’ when you are standing outside of it. We have all been there!!! LOL
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 5:37am
Beverly says:
I say ‘WE’ in collective terms, because I value the insights and wisdom of the collective of people here. Love and hugs to you all.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 5:41am
Beverly says:
I learnt alot about personal power from the Narcissist. From someone who hasnt got much going for him, he knew how to manipulate every action to make himself look so important and me to be the downtrodden. I am not saying that I would manipulate in the same way that he did, but I realise that he must have been an astute watcher of people - assessing their motivations, their inadequacies and tapping into that.
He had the ability to cause ‘tremours’ in the relationship by doing or saying the smallest of things. I also realised that because I sometimes reacted to these tremours, that it gave him the ‘feedback’ he wanted. Like an exchange of energy/current that feeds the other person. If that makes sense.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 5:48am
Beverly says:
People say that you can learn from experience - and of course that is true. But what is also true, is that each experience comes with a different ‘hat’ on. So the real experience comes in applying what we have learnt to the experiences in all its different disguises.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 5:54am
Beverly says:
My ex narcissist TOLD me at the start, he was a ‘watcher’. Now I know exactly what he means. I cant tell you what job he does, but he has authority over difficult unruly people, so he KNOWS where his powerplay is, when to act, when not to act, when to humiliate, when to threaten. He uses his physical persona to his advantage. He knows his boundaries VERY WELL and uses it to his advantage in his work and his relationships. many men are more much ofeit (spelling!) with their personal boundaries, as men are more usually self contained and women are more usually expansive to others.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 6:04am
Beverly says:
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this is where I think I/women need to get the feminine (intuition) side and the masculine side (doing) side working in harmony. I.e. its no good having the intuition (feminine) if we dont ACT (masculine) to protect ourselves.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 6:07am
Beverly says:
Having said that - that is why NO CONTACT is the strongest statement you can make to someone with personality disorder. There is HUGE protective power in NO RESPONSE, because there is no exchange of energy. You are VALUING and CHOOSING where to put your precious energy.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 6:14am
Beverly says:
My exN in his extreme way, had NO problem saying ‘NO’ to people or situations, and often without any justification. When people really listen to your ‘NO’, then your ‘YES’ holds much more weight. Like your ex, mine messed around with my head, he gave me hints that he might have gay tendencies and also he was brought up with women, so his male role model (his father) was brutal. But in this situation they learn to disconnect from their true selves (splitting) and they learn to manipulate, just like children who ‘pay’ you back, or pay anyone else back for their inner anger. I believe this is the root of alot of antisocial behaviour, vandalism, it is inner anger externalised on society.
I think the best thing I have learnt is to take time to assess the ‘climate’ of what the other person means/wants, before making any reaction or committments. And most importantly TUNE IN to your instincts, your radar, because however your mind can be befuddled, your instincts, your intuition is a true radar.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 6:36am
Beverly says:
And as women (and men), we maybe still learning how to assert our boundaries, but our intuition is one of our greatest assets.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 6:39am
rperk6069 says:
Free,
You absolutely should not be embarrased. You seem to be a very kind, caring and compassionate woman and what I saw was you sincerely trying to help someone. Very unfortunate and a bit scary.
Reading the posts about the P’s having gay tendencies, my ex once put on my mini skirt. It was so weird and I have to say freaked me out quite a bit, especially when he got…ummm….hard. He brought it up in a couple of conversations saying he would like to try it again. Now, why would I want to see him in my mini skirt a second time when the first time was bad enough? A visual I know I can live without. Does anyone know why they have these tendencies?
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 9:01am
hummingbird1418 says:
Jane Smith.
To be capable of deep, pure love, the most powerful force in the universe, of people, critters, nature, music, art, everything in this beautiful world is a BILLION times more fulfilling, profound than the empty, hollow, shallow, miserable existence of Psychopaths. Oh, I don’t doubt for one single minute that they are miserable creatures. They simply don’t have the capacity for introspection, self-evaluation to comprehend the truth
I do believe that psychopaths do not enjoy their miserable existence. I also believe that they do not have a conscience or the ability to evaluate their lives. They don’t see the damage that they have done to the innocent victims that they have left behind. They just move on to the next victim and start the process all over again. It would be nice to warn the next person who falls for his charms and advice, but I know that I didn’t listen. I thought that everyone didn’t know him like I did and didn’t understand him. BLAH!!!!!
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 9:30am
Beverly says:
rperk6069. A man in a mini skirt - the mind boggles!! Shock tactics perhaps, to disorientate you, get you pondering, thinking about them, or some skewed fantasy he has seen somewhere probably the most likely.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 10:00am
holywatersalt says:
Rperk-
Those fetishes, well I think it’s aabout objectifying sex. It’s an act, a different flavor, person, behavior…..
There’s an entry on this site stating Psychos are neither, gay or straight….it makes sense.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 10:09am
Beverly says:
Free, another signpost for me, for people to be wary of, are people who demonstrate extremes of behaviour; people who are too pushy, who offer too much flattery, blow hot and cold etc. Mind you, at the start of the relationship with N, I told him to stop putting me on a pedestal and slow it down, which he did, but I fell into his trap, because that gave me the impression I was controlling the pace of things, whereas he knew darn well, how to dominate matters.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 10:36am
rperk6069 says:
I just find it disgusting. I want my man to walk, talk, and behave like a man and he is not Scottish.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 12:19pm
hummingbird1418 says:
Control is a big issue with the sociopath. It bothers them immensely to lose their power over you. They want to be the only voice that you are listening to. Mine was constantly lecturing me about something or other. Of course, his evaluation of a situation was more relevant than mine.
He wanted me to call him when I got home. For a long time I thought that he was just trying to be protective, but now I see it as another control technique.
We all fell into a trap of one kind or another. These sociopaths are skilled in laying the bait that attracts us - like our nurturing nature. Mine was always having financial difficulties and I would bail him out.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 12:27pm
alohatraveler says:
Free,
I didn’t have time to read it all but I kept checking to see if it was still going. HAHA!
I think there was some kind of mental health issue going on.. not any evil intent.
Anyway, very entertaining. We do need a laugh now and then, don’t we?
:o)
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 12:28pm
alohatraveler says:
rperk,
Miniskirt? ewwww. Bad Man took pictures of himself in my underwear. I was speechless. Unfortunately, these images are burned into my mind. BLECH!
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 12:31pm
alohatraveler says:
to all…
I am just sharing a random moment.
A few days ago at work, one of the children ran up to me and said, “HAHA! That’s your boyfriend!” and handed me a scrap of a paper with a picture of Indiana Jones on it. WHOA! I was not expecting that and I actually gasped… but then I laughed. Bad Man looks exactly like Harrison Ford when he is in his Indiana Jones character.. especially in the promo pictures. (Of course the kids don’t know anything about this.)
I am hating all these promotional ads for the movie… and I HATE hearing the theme song too! ARGH!
I don’t think I am going to go to the movie.
Have a great day!
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 12:37pm
rperk6069 says:
Ewwww is exactly what it is. I’m just hoping that I looked better in it than he did! Hopefully he didn’t try on my underwear, not to my knowledge anyway and if he did, I don’t ever want to know. Not never!
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 1:37pm
rperk6069 says:
It’s funny how certain movies, people, music, places ect. remind you of the P. My thing is music, lots of good songs I used to like I won’t listen to anymore because it reminds me of him. He ruined alot of good songs.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 1:43pm
OxDrover says:
WOW! I sure missed a lot while I was gone Sunday and Monday. I’ve been on holiday with a most remarkable woman. She is a world renowned authority in her profession, traveled all over the world, and absolutely one of the most interesting and vital women I have ever been around–she too was the victim of a psychopathic relationship that left her a quivering blob of protoplasam, almost unable to work.
This woman is so bright, so accomplished, and such an outstanding person that I feel in awe of being in her presence, and yet I realize that she was just as taken in as I was, D &D’d by this creep, and left emotionally bleeding.
I think just knowing that someone of her high intelligence, outstanding accomplishment, etc. to be totally beaten down by such a person doesn’t make me feel so “alone.”
We spent a great weekend as just two friends, talking about our lives, our experiences with the Ps, encouraging and validating each other–and in our growth, and healing.
While being with you guys is so good in so many ways, to just be with someone “in the flesh” to talk and encourage each other was so good. It makes me think back to some suggestions a while back (can’t remember on which thread) about support groups, either national, regional, or local. About maybe “seminars” etc. and how good they would be, how empowering.
I know that some of our posters are from other countries, so it would be difficult for everyone to come to one spot for a “seminar” or convention, and it would take at least a year or so to plan for one that was VERY affordable.
I’m not sure if anyone would even be willing to work on such an event. I would be willing to offer my farm and facilities as a site–I am located in Mid-America so centrally located to the US states–international airport at Little Rock–60 miles away–also train station there, so pick up would be fairly easily arrangeable–and though I don’t have a place to bed down a great number of people, I have a large aircraft hangar that could be turned into a large “bunk house” if everyone brought a blow up matteress, and I have a mobile commercial kitchen (licensed etc) that could feed 100-200 people 3 meals a day 3-people working it, for minimal cost, and there are fairly low cost motels within 20 miles for those that didn’t want to “camp out” in a bunk house. Temporary sanitary facilities are avaliable for rental very cheaply, so the cost of such a seminar should be very minimal compared to many held in larger hotels–so that just about anyone could afford to come. If anyone is interested in trying to get such a seminar going–say within the next year (it does take a long time to get this type of thing together, with programs etc. especially when you have 0$ working budget.) let me know and we could form a committee to investigate the fesibility, number of people who might be interested, etc. It might not even be possible, but at the same time, it might very well be possible.
I know that just spending one weekend with someone in such a self-affirming “holiday” sure made me feel as if I were reenergized.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 4:52pm
rperk6069 says:
I think it would be wonderful to have a support group and a place to safely meet. I would be up for it if this was to happen some day. I live in CO so it is not too far for me personally.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 5:18pm
alohatraveler says:
I thought you’d never ask… I’ll pitch a tent. Just kidding!
I do hope that something will come together someday for our community.
For me, the main purpose would to be to train and organize so that we could create support groups in our own areas. I have thought of attending a Domestic Violence Support Group in my area that I found on the net but have never gotten around to it. I work most nights but it is on my list to do.
I do love our forum though. There is power in writing. I want to work at Women’s Shelter someday but I don’t know how much a person would be listening when they come in the door all banged up. I think, I hope, that once people find this forum… they are searching for an answer. Still, people do disappear from here and I do wonder about them
Hellooooo out there!!! Where is LivingLovingMe? I want to hear from you. I know you will be back… even if you went back. It’s okay. I did too!
Aloha to all……… E
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 9:52pm
newworld view says:
count me in…ill even help with the chores
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 10:33pm
OxDrover says:
Aloha,
I agree with you, it would be a great idea to organize and do a training to work toward training us to work with local support groups in our area, or to organize them.
When I came home today I was so energized, and I still feel that way–not just from getting away from the farm for a day, but for the support my friend and I gave each other.
And that isn’t all we did, just part of it–but I think she can go out and face her P at a conference they must both chair in a few weeks now. She, like most of us, forgot how STRONG she is, how much power she has, and is finally seeing that he is like a big, empty card board box, only with beautiful wrapping outside, but NOTHING INSIDE–it was just a beautiful package of NOTHING. Expectations without reality. Disappointing of course, when we open that package and see that it doesn’t contain what we were expecting, what we were hoping, that it is not filled with our dreams at all.
Spring has always been a special time of RENEWAL for me, and in spite of the tornadoes that touched down a mile from my home, the rains and the floods, I think this is one of the most beautiful springs I have seen–or maybe it is just that I am noticing every wild flower that is blooming. Sucking in the beauty that surrounds me, that goes unnoticed when I am in pain, and turned inward forcusing on that pain. It is so good to be alive, Thank you God! And thank you my fellow travelers on this path. (((hugs)))) to you all.
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 @ 10:44pm
Beverly says:
I was saying to my friend last night, that if there was a convention, I would come from the UK, to meet you all. What a wonderful idea.
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 3:20am
LilOrphan says:
Beverly:
Like an exchange of energy/current that feeds the other person. If that makes sense.
All relationships have this energy flow, but the difference is in the relational flow.
At the beginning, in all relationships, we put all energy flow into each other, and that creates the beauty we all remember from the beginning of all things. With a normal situation, the energy exchange varies and is traded back and forth, depending on the need of an individual and the events at hand.
Now what I think happens in dysfunctional situations is that suddenly, they are doing things (or not doing things, often, intentionally) to direct YOUR energy into them, at all times. Hence the draining feeling mentioned so often on this forum.
In a healthy, functioning relationship, it’s a constant flow of mutual energy towards each other, and most of the time, benevolent energy. In one with a P, they are blocking the flow of good energy towards you while doing things, or saying things, that generate our energy towards them.
Being women who radiate a lot of selflessness and willingness to give our care, attention and energy to someone we love, we’re good targets and suppliers of such energy.
So before we give it to someone, we have to be certain that they have no intent to misuse it, and they can help replenish it by supplying their own positive energy.
I see this when I compare the directional energy flow between myself and my daughter (mutual, replenishing) with that of the energy flow between myself and my brother or ex-husband (constantly flowing from me, to them, with imbalance and little reciprocity of good energy from them).
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 7:42am
OxDrover says:
Yesterday as I was waiting for the airplane to pick up my friend to return her to her home, we were talking, and an idea hit me. It was sort of one I had danced around before.
It seems to me that the Ps somehow intuitively know that we have “something” that they don’t have…and they tend to go from relationship to relationship with this intense “honeymoon” period at the start of each one.
Is it possible that they KNOW that we have something that they don’t (empathy) and they know that they are missing “something” but aren’t quite sure what it is, but think that somehow they just ahven’t found the “right person” to give them this thing, or to show them this missing piece of their selves. So each time they start a new relationship they are like a kid at Christmas excited that each new package may have the desired “present” in it—and they are so excited and anticipate that THIS “box” will contain their most desired of presents–and when they examine the box carefully, they realize that that new relationship (gift wrapped box) does NOT contain any more than the last box that they opened, and they become so angry that they didnt’ get what they wanted from that “box” that in their rage they turn to smash it—then go on to a new stack of “boxes” looking for the missing piece to their souls?
With my P XBF I almost got the idea that with me he was so “close” to finding what he wanted, or thought he was, but it was like at a certain time the “on switch” was pushed to “off” and he became disgusted that I didn’t give him the sense of peace that he was looking for and that somehow he suddenly became “disappointed” in me, where before he had this great anticipation of wonder. It was like when he finally opened the box of my soul and looked inside, it didn’t give him what he wanted and as soon as he got a clear look inside, it didn’t make him feel any better, but now he knew it wouldn’t, that he couldn’t find his OWN missing piece inside me. (truth is, they can never find that missing piece.)
Does what I am saying make any sense at all? I think it is like the “energy” that Orphan spoke of, and somehow they are not able to utilize the in-flow of energy, maybe they don’t even recognize it for what it is.
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 9:37am
Beverly says:
LilOrphan. I think you are spot on. You have described the energy exchange so well. Yes, being caring, GIVING, nurturing people, we are so ripe to give much more energy than we receive!! The difference, as you say, is that they suck our energy. The effort they put into the bonding process, the intense grooming is because they know that they are potentially going to get so much MORE back.
OxDrover. I think you are so right too!!! Yes, my ex, was fast tracking through different women, pretending to put ‘down roots’ with each one but knowing that the boxes would all fall down, so what is the point in investing committment. I think they know much much more about their lack of future relationship potential, because of their track record, then they let on. Also because they are subject to ’splitting’ off their true self they come to a phase when they are just about to claim ‘their prize’, but a voice in them scrambles the whole thing, so that they become disappointed. They dont share this bit with us. It makes total sense to me.
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 11:25am
alohatraveler says:
Beverly,
If you would come all the way from the UK, I would definately come from CA. In my mind, reading here for this last year, the people have begun to take shape in my mind. I wonder if they would be the way I imagined.
What would be so fun is to NOT have name tags at first and have people guess who you are during the first day. They could but a sticker on your back of who they think you are. I know.. that would a lame game but still… I think it would be funny.
It’s kind of amazing.. even if it is obvious… that behind each of these characters is person that has a whole life and lives in a town and knows different people.. but we are bound by this uncommon… common experience.
:o)
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 1:33pm
alohatraveler says:
LilOrphan,
Beautiful. :o)
This sounds a bit like a branch off of the Narcissists “supply” stuff.
I have often described healthy relationships that work well to have similiar “rhythms” between partners.
A balance between partners for:
time together
time apart
time with ones own friends
couple time with other couples
quiet time
talking time
lounging on the couch together time
lounging on the couch alone time…
I miss those days…. I had that once… but it wasn’t with the Bad Man… that is for sure!
:o)
I’m going to the beach!
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 1:40pm
Beverly says:
Aloha. I think it would be an amazing experience. I like your idea of ‘name the person’.!!
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 1:59pm
rperk6069 says:
I should be working but I can’t help reading here to help me with the extra anxiety I am feeling and reading other posts makes me feel not so alone.
Monday, Memorial Day will be the 7 year anniversary of meeting the P. I feel like I have come a long way since those awful days but for some reason, I feel high anxiety. I’m not sure where it is coming from since I haven’t seen him in over a year and the worst is over.
Am wondering if anyone else has these feelings when a certain date approaches. I am not missing him, I don’t think so anyway. Nope, I’m pretty sure not, but I am feeling on edge and out of sorts. Discombobutated is the word that comes to my mind. I can’t discuss this with anyone-friends or family, they don’t want to hear it and I kinda don’t blame them. No one knows I still have these feelings. Blech, I don’t want to feel this way. Maybe because I am turning 41 next month I am just reflecting on the time I wasted in my 30’s with the scub bag piece of s… Maybe I should just go back to bed. Sorry, I am whinning and probably feeling sorry for myself. Anxiety sucks.
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 2:05pm
Beverly says:
AloaT, Bit of a sneaky thought, but I think you would guess me and OxDrover as being the two oldest women in the group!! Right?!
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 2:14pm
Beverly says:
Rperk. Sometimes it is good to have a wallow!! Sometimes, we have to step backwards a little, in order to step forward alot. Anniversary dates are like mini signposts, but they do get thinner. I like words, they reveal who we really are. Our feelings are our language of the soul and need to be heard. Anxiety reminds us, that we are out of sorts, out of balance. Take care
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 2:31pm
OxDrover says:
Oh,, but Beverly,
I LOOK SO YOUNG AND LOVELY YOU’D THINK I WAS 30! (LOL RONTFLMAO) NO ONE would recognize me! ha ha Yea, right!!!
Rperk,
I think most if not all of us know the “I can’t talk about it to my friends” bit—they just get so tired of hearing it and I can’t say I blame them…years ago I had a friend who kept finding abusive men and when they would beat her up she would bail them out of jail–over and over and over…and I finally told her once when she had put him back in jail and was coming over for the “Umpeenth time” to moan about how bad he was to her I told her I would NOT EVER TALK ABOUT HIM AGAIN–she bailed him out the next day and I haven’t seen her since. I wish I knew then what I know now. I thought I was being “good” trying to set boundaries—and really I didn’t want to talk about how he had beaten her again when she had bailed him out–repeat and repeat and repeat.
I think that is why a lot of people don’t understand why we “volunteer” to be victims—I never did that with a man, at least not for long and he never hit me, but I did it with my SON–so what’s the difference? I was just as much a volunteer victim as my friend was. I hope and pray she got out of the rut and got rid of that bad man and didn’t pick up another one. So many people NEVER get out of the RUT, the FOG etc. At least we have come that far, we are OUT of the relationship physically at least.
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 4:05pm
rperk6069 says:
Thanx gals.
Oprah says that your 50’s and 60’s are the new 40, guess that makes all of us about the same age. Older & hopefully wiser.
Wednesday, 21 May 2008 @ 4:47pm
Beverly says:
OxDrover, I had to laugh!!! I may look a tad over 30 but I’m no short arse!! Ha. Ha.
Thursday, 22 May 2008 @ 10:33am
OxDrover says:
Free, it is funny to me about “looks”—my late husband was “buff” when he was young, but NEVER GOOD LOOKING per se. (He had a huge nose) but you know, he was soooooo popular with women, from 6 to 96, every woman he met loved him, BECAUSE HE MADE THEM FEEL BEAUTIFUL. Because of that, HE SEEMED HANDSOME–if that makes any sense at all.
His former secretary was a HOMELY woman if you saw her photo, but she, like him, was soooooooo charming that when she walked into a room, every man there thought she was the MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN THERE—she was AMAZING. Even I perceived her as “beautiful” and when I see a photograph of her it strikes me as “not her” because she looks so plain and unattractive—it isn’t that she just isn’t “photogenic” it is really all about her personality. Her charm overcomes ALL ELSE about her.
When I get to looking in the mirror and seeing an “old woman” there with wrinkles, age spots, etc. I stop myself and I remind myself about how other people perceived my H’s secretary. She is BEAUTIFUL because she is LOVELY INSIDE. My husband was HANDSOME because he was handsome INSIDE. I may no longer be “drop dead gorgeous” outside, but I am MUCH MORE LOVELY INSIDE THAN I EVER WAS. What the exterior package is does not matter in the great scheme of things. All external beauty fades with time. If I base my “self-ness” on my looks attracting friends and lovers what does that say about ME?
Our media tells us that “young is beautiful” and “old is ugly” and males ARE psychologically and biologically programed to be attracted to “fertility” in women (young, healthy) but if the ONLY thing going for a relationship is the “animal attraction” to spread genes, there isn’t much in the relationship. I may never again have a “soul mate” like I did with my husband, but I’m starting to be my own SOUL MATE, and am no longer so empty without him to validate my worth, validate my being. I can look back at our relationship and enjoy the memories, but don’t feel empty without it. I’m glad we had it, but I am still ME even with him gone. When I hooked up with the P XBF, I thought I needed someone else to validate me, my worth, my sexiness even in old age, my worth–but I find now, that NO ONE CAN TRULY VALIDATE ME. I must validate myself for it to be UNLOSEABLE. If our value is determined by other’s opinions, etc. it can always be LOST, but if it comes from inside, it can never be taken away by whatever losses we suffer. Personal or material.
Dr. Frankl spoke in his book, “Man’s search for meaning” about the fact that the prisoners in the Nazi camps had lost EVERYTHING except their bodies, and even those were being beset with pain, starvation and torture. It was ONLY by hanging on to HIMSELF, the inside self, that he survived physically, spiritually and emotionally. The loss of everything and everyone he loved didn’t “kill” him inside. THAT IS THE STRENGTH I STRIVE FOR.
Thursday, 22 May 2008 @ 11:17am
Beverly says:
Please excuse my weird humour!! But so many people are still heavily attracted by looks. I just met a guy recently, who is not particularly attractive, doesnt have a huge ego, and doesnt have 12 mobile phones!! However, he is such a gentle, nice guy who appears to be very genuine, but I would not feel any chemistry for him as he is quite passive. But I know that if I ever got involved with someone again, it would be someone like him. I think we would all like to be involved with people who love us for what we are, on the inside. Perhaps that is the good thing about friends.
Thursday, 22 May 2008 @ 12:38pm
OxDrover says:
Yes, I realize that we are all to some extent attracted by “looks” but at the same time I think “chemistry” is more than meer “looks.” It is personality and other things that makes someone attractive to me. My husband was “handsome” to me because I loved him.
I have several close male friends that I adore AS FRIENDS but it isn’t their looks that doesn’t “click” on the chemistry, I’m not sure exactly what it is that makes that “attraction”—oh, some things I can put my finger on, but much of it I can’t.
My P XBF was “average” looks but had a really warm smile and there was so much about our life styles, mutual friends, mutual interests etc. that made it all click some how at least for me.
When you are a “kid” you have a larger selection of people your age to choose from than we do today when most people are either married or rejects, so just the sheer numbers of women who are “single” vs the smaller number of available men our age (and many of those do choose from the younger women who are available, partly I am sure, based on looks) so the “pickings are slim” but at the same time, I am now CONTENT with myself, by myself, so if I never get the chance for another romance, I am OK. I’m no longer “needy” and “panic’d” like I was about being “alone.” One is a whole number, not just half of two. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like it, it just means I no longer REQUIRE it to be “whole.”
Thursday, 22 May 2008 @ 6:48pm