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10 tactics for child custody battles with sociopaths

Monday, 5 May 2008 @ 5:41am • My Weblog

Last week Dr. Liane Leedom wrote about the tragic case Dr. Amy Castillo, whose children were murdered by their psychopathic father after several judges issued rulings that failed to protect them. I hope this terrible and extreme case will be a wake-up call for family courts.

Lovefraud frequently receives e-mail from men and women involved in child custody disputes with sociopaths, who hopefully, are not murderers. Here is one of them:

I am involved in a custody case with a sociopath, however, my case is being fought in Europe where I recently relocated to (I am American, he is European). After being the sole caregiver of my children for five years, I had no choice but to leave them with their father and return to the States. When we separated he took their passports and left the country for a year. It was NOT possible to obtain new passports for children without BOTH parents’ signatures.

By the end of that year my financial situation was desperate and I had no choice. I came back to the States, got myself back on my feet and recently I started my own company as a Virtual Assistant, allowing me to work anywhere in the world. While in the States I came back to Europe every six to eight weeks to visit my children. Well one month ago, I relocated back to Europe to live and continue my fight for custody of my children.

The court case had already been ongoing since January and in typical sociopath style he has lied and forged documents. Even so, my ex was recently given sole custody (temporarily while custody is decided) and that I must pay him 900 euros (around $1,300 USD a month!). As if that could not be bad enough, he sends me on a regular basis (the most recent being today) faxes full of lies and accusations that he then turns around and uses as evidence in his court case!!! Furthermore, I do NOT have 900 euros a month to give him. I just relocated and started my own business and this is a real slap in the face with all of the financial damage he has done to me as well as my credit in the U.S.

I have fired my attorneys and hired the best Custody/Family attorney where I live. He has been in practice for 30 years and not lost a case! Also he is known to be a very strong and tough attorney. I wish I would have had him in the beginning. So with this I feel confidence.

The reason I am writing is because although I have a very positive outlook and feel that I am a strong person, as I know that most of you can agree, it is very difficult dealing with a sociopath. When I receive these horrible faxes my stomach just drops and it can make me feel very anxious for hours after. So now I have stopped reading them at all. I do not know what I am looking for by sending this email. I think I just need the support of knowing there are others out there going through the same things as me and that this is manageable and that I will make it through. I would greatly appreciate hearing what others have done in a situation like this. Thank you.

Like most parents fighting a custody battle with a sociopath, this woman faces a difficult times. Below are some general suggestions about child custody and sociopaths.

Get him or her to walk away

If your ex is a sociopath, at best, he or she will be a lousy parent. At worst, he or she will intentionally try to damage your children. Therefore, if at all possible, it may be best to cut the sociopath out of your children’s lives.

You may want to consider offering the sociopath an incentive to walk away. Tell the sociopath to give up parental rights, and he or she won’t have to pay any child support. You may feel that you need the child support payments, but chances are that you’ll never get the money, or it will always be a struggle to get it. The money isn’t worth having the predator in your family’s life. Figure out a way to support your children without it.

Sometimes this works—there are sociopaths who care more about money than kids. But many times it doesn’t, because the sociopath considers children to be possessions. Or, the sociopath just wants to win the battle with you, and destroy you in the process. In those cases, you’ll end up in court.

Tactics in custody battles

I am forever grateful that I never had children with my sociopathic ex-husband. I avoided the most tragic of circumstances involving these predators—a child custody battle. Therefore, the suggestions I make below come from my research and what Lovefraud readers have told me.

If you’re fighting a custody battle with a sociopath, here are some tactics to follow:

1. Document, document, document.
Keep a journal of everything that happens. Often, the craziness is so intense that you don’t want to remember what happens. Your journal will be important when you need to tell a cohesive story of what has been going on with the sociopath, especially if you need to tell it long after events have transpired. Save every scrap of paper, every e-mail, every fax, every receipt. Develop a way of organizing the information, whether chronological, or by topic. Keep copies in a safe place.

2. Have witnesses
It is best not to deal with the sociopath alone; every interaction then becomes he said/she said. Have a trusted friend or relative present during child exchanges or other interactions as much as you can. You may even want to consider tape recording and videotaping some of what goes on.

3. Get your own information
Do not allow the sociopathic parent to control information about your children. Make sure you get information directly from schools, doctors and others.

4. Hire an aggressive, competent attorney
Child custody cases with sociopaths are not normal cases. The sociopath will not play by the rules. Your attorney must understand this. The sociopath will lie in court, although his or her performance will appear heartfelt, like he or she is “just concerned with the welfare of the children.” The sociopath will make outrageous accusations. The sociopath is also likely to retain an attorney who is also sociopathic. Therefore, your attorney must be up for the challenge.

5. Do not allow lies to become part of the court record
Sociopaths lie. Sociopaths lie convincingly. You cannot allow unchallenged lies to become part of the court records. Once they are, they take on the aura of truth, and put you in a very bad position. Some lies, like accusations of child abuse, may haunt you forever.

6. Be cautious in stating that your ex is, in fact, a sociopath
Unfortunately, many judges really do not understand what this means to the welfare of a child. Like the general public, many judges equate “sociopath” with “serial killer,” and may consequently believe that you are overreacting. So it may not be in your best interest to prove that he or she is a sociopath. Focus on proving the behavior.

7. Stay calm in court
You must present a calm, professional image when you go to court, even as the sociopath lies. Do not allow the sociopath to make you emotional. The sociopath will accuse you of being unstable, and you will prove it by your behavior in court. Keep your emotions in check, at least in front of the judge.

8. Make sure court orders are explicit
Insist on detailed court orders. The order should not say, “parent has visitation every other weekend.” It should specify exactly which weekends, starting at what times, returning at what times, who is responsible for transporting children, who is responsible for bathing and feeding them—everything must be spelled out in detail. If there is any ambiguity, the sociopath will exploit it.

9. Make the sociopath abide by court orders
If the sociopath fails to honor the orders, do not cut him or her any slack. Record any violation. Call the police if necessary. Continue to document everything that happens, because you may need to go to court again. If you ever decide that you need to cut the sociopath out of the child’s life, you’ll need evidence to do it.

10. Take care of yourself
You will need all your resources to deal with the sociopath. Therefore, make healthy decisions in your own life. Eat right, avoid drugs and alcohol, get enough sleep, exercise and develop a support network. In order to care for your children, you must care for yourself.

Post your suggestions

I previously reviewed the book, Win Your Child Custody War, on the Lovefraud Blog. This book is full of information that may help you, from how to gather documentation to how to hire an attorney and private investigator.

If Lovefraud readers have any more suggestions that may be helpful to others involved in custody battles with sociopaths, please post it in comments below.

written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •

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coping says:

Thank Milo! Yes peace is what we all want…LOL. Hmmm? Guess its a hard one.
Have a great day and I really do appreciate your feedback. It helps.

(Report abusive comment)

October 25, 2011 at 1:56 pm

Hens says:

coping – I wish you peace. hugz

October 25, 2011 at 11:30 pm

Jorja says:

Knowing I am not alone in this kind of battle to protect my son does help somewhat, but I am so fraught with worry all the time it is absolutely exhausting. Unfortunatley due to poor legal represtntation in the past, my ex did not have supervised access long enough, nor did he complete the psychological testing recommended in a custody access. I do have sole custody, but I have had to agree to my ex having what would almost be considered joint custody access, every second weekend, 2 weeks in the summer and I wont even get to spend Christmas with my little boy this year because I was told I had no coice but to agree. I feel stupid I did not disagree with Lawyers more as I instinctively knew what would happen with a sociopath making demands, not for what is in the best interest of my child, but what he felt would hurt me the most. I left him when my son was 5 months old..he just turned % this year and has started school and I am still dealing with all the lies, the deception, the accusations, no financial support. He has lived with 3 different women since I left him, the most recent he met 6 months ago and married just two weeks ago…and she is an RN, specializing in mental health issues and still lies for him in court. I am so completely disgusted with the family court system, and all parties involved. I cannot afford a private lawyer and have to rely on legal aid. I am terrified to represent myself…although most times I think I could do a better job showing the lies and patterns better than a lawyer who has no experience dealing with this type of personality. I hate talking to my family and freinds about it, I am sure they have heard enough over the years, and every visitation weekend something new happens. I am not sure how much longer I can stay strong> My health is suffering, my social life is suffering. My financial state is pathetic. I am not sure what I need. I think I just need someone to understand. I need to know I am doing the right thing for my son.

October 25, 2011 at 11:56 pm

Donna Andersen says:

Jorja,

You have come to the right place. Many people here on Lovefraud have experienced exactly what you are experiencing. Feel free to ask questions and seek suggestions.

Stay strong.

October 26, 2011 at 9:13 am

skylar says:

Jorga,
welcome to LF.
learning and studying about the personality disorder of narcissism and sociopathy IS doing the right thing for your son. You need to keep reading here and getting all the books you can. Eventually you will OWN this problem. You will be able to anticipate and dodge your ex-spath’s maneuvers. It takes time.

For now, please learn that they feed on your emotions, so don’t give him any. He searches your facial expressions and actions to ascertain what you VALUE. When he determines what that is, he will target those things to try to take them. Remember, he values NOTHING, so he won’t necessarily take things that benefit him, or that he can keep. He will take things from you just so YOU CAN’T HAVE THEM. Things like your self-esteem, your compassion, your innocence and other intangible human values, make him envious because he doesn’t have them. So he will target those things along with money, reputation, your son and your peace of mind.

My advice: hide your valuables, give him fake emotions.

October 26, 2011 at 10:04 am

Hi Jorja,
Nope, you’re not alone. There are many mothers and some fathers on this site who are going through similar situations, myself included. Some are in “different” stages of recovery but all have valuable info…even if it’s just the “venting”…it does make you feel like you are not alone.
I can completely relate to your disgust with the family court system…as well as your concerns about representing yourself without an attorney despite financial concerns. I personally would not deal with mine without an attorney simply because they know the law… OR SHOULD, and it essentially boils down to the law verses our emotions (and what we KNOW to be true). However, some moms have done that…it’s rough, with or without legal help.
It’s hard raising your child alone, dealing with the spath, not to mention the onion peeling (self-discovery, boundary setting, ect) in addition to just financially rebuilding your life. Nope most people outside these little internet walls do not get it…and they do get tired of hearing about it. I try very hard not to even talk about it anymore to the outside world.
Sorry you are in this situation and have “joined the club”.
If you can, take strength in knowing your are not alone….and there are actually some success stories out there.
If you can…on your hardest days…just take it one day at a time. Otherwise it will become so overwhelming your head could fall off.
Therapy has helped me allot in addition to LF. I don’t have insurance but found a GREAT therapist through a local church organization. There are many low-cost, free therapists out there. Finding a good one is the trick…I got very lucky. Something to consider…?.

October 26, 2011 at 10:30 am

MiLo says:

So sorry you are here, but here you will get the understanding you deserve. We all feel the frustrations with the family court system.

My situation is a little different from most in that I have fought for and received custody of my grandson from my abusive and neglecfull sociopathic daughter. In the process I have been in 4 different courts in two different counties for almost 8 years. I can offer a few suggestions, based on my experiences, feel free you disregard if you don’t think they would work for you.

From what you described, you got the “standard” one size fits all visitation (or as the call it now “parenting”) time. If you are not now, by all means journal everything that happens surrounding any and all interactions between your ex and your child. You stated “every visitation weekend something new happens”. Journal EVERYTHING, in particular how your child is acting just prior to the visits and how he is acting after the visits. Things like any problems at school after a visitation weekend. Ask his teachers to be on the look out and drop you a note. Keep track of missed visitation or anytime the pickup or dropoff is over 15 minutes late.

Does your child see a therapist? This is good in that the therapist can testify about the child’s reactions to visitation. They usually cannot testify IF visitation should take place or for how long, just the child’s reactions. They can also ask the child questions that you should not be asking.

I am sure you know that child support (lack thereof) does not keep a parent from visitation, however the fact that the parent does not pay support just may weigh in your favor if you go to renegotiate the amount of visitation.

Does your court have a mediation process with regards to altering visitation? If it does, it may just mean going in front of a mediator to present your case to ask for reduced visitation. This is where the journal of everything is a MUST.

If and when you do decide to go back to court, and I totally understand the financial hardship, if you didn’t have a GAL before, ask that one be appointed and what you would be required to pay based on your income. Also see if a forensic psychologist can do a family evaluation, at the court’s expense, or better yet your ex’s expense.

Read through your state and county laws regarding custody and visitation to educate yourself before you even talk to an attorney or legal aid.

You can do this, best of luck to you.

October 26, 2011 at 1:26 pm

Thank you everyone for your feedback…I am overwhelmed with the support everyone is offering. I had been in counselling for years, it didnt seem to help me, perhaps I had the wrong counsellor. I have been keeping detailed reports ( I have 25 pages since our last court date in July 2011). My lawyer (legal aid( says there is nothing I can do about it, as I cant make someone be a good person and since I already ahve sole custody, there isnt anything a judge will do . I just cant believe that. My son has been to a counsellor, but wont really talk about his father except to say that Daddy says what we do is a secret. Which is what he says to me when I try to get him to talk about what he does when with his father. Not only is his father a sociopath, he has a 15 year history of domestic abuse (which I also went through with him). I see aggresive and violent tendancies arrising in my son and it worries me the genetic factor may be stronger than the enviornmental factor and he will follow in his fathers path.
I know his only motivation is to hurt me, not that he has our sons best interest in mind and I try not to react to him, but it is so hard.

Last week (Friday), he found out I had a parent teacher meeting, so without asking if he could attend, he called the school lied to them about me inviting him to the meeting so he could find out what time I was going to be there. Even though they offered him another appointment time, he insisted he be there for my meeting. I told the school he oculd have my appointment and I would reschedule as I was not comfortable with the scenerio. The school informed me that not only was he 30 minutes late for the appointment (even though he insisted on being there at 2:40)…he also brought his new bride (they met 7 months ago and married 3 weeks ago). His obvious intention to both me and school officials was that he wanted to “surprise” me by showing up unannounced with his new wife (or victime, as I like to call them). He seemed more interested in being there to see me than being there to discuss out son with the teacher.

He called me Saturday to tell me Reece was really sick and he took him to the emergency room (at a hosptial an hour and a half away) as they were in the town his wife was from. He said the doctors checked m son out and everything was fine, he just wanted to let me know. On Monday I called this hospital and they have no record of my son being there. This is not the first time he has lied about medical treatment he gave to my son. When I inquirted to him about why the hospital had no record of the visit he just said (in text message) that they were ther, but just to drop paperwork of for Tara(his new wife), and he had “the girls” check Reece out. His new wife works as a nurse in the psych ward at the hospital. It will be a hard pill for her to swallow when she finally sees what he is since her profession is psychology. I know he sought her out as a new partner thinking her profession will help him to avoid accusations of mental instability. So I am furious that he lied again about medical treatment, however this time I showed no reaction except to ask who the names of the people were who provided treatment and diagnoisi of my son and ask if they were doctors and qualified to do so. He freaked oiut, calling me names etc, becomeing very angry and defensive about having to explain himself. I showed no reaction, did not respond, and asked my lawyer to deal with it and to write a letter to the hospital concerning this.
I have had a custody assessment done in 2007, which suggested I have sole custody and he be supervised. I have asked my Lawyer to request another one be done. I have no fath the legal system or family and childrens services will be able to help me protect my son from the psychological and emotional problems that will develope from him having regular contact with a sociopath. He is only 5 and loves his father, and of course does not see the inappropriateness of what he does…yet. I am hopeful he will see what his father is on his own as he grows and matures past the emotional level of his father. But it still breaks my heart everyday knowing my son does not have the father he deserves to have. I still cry everyday…I look forward to a time when I can smile and laugh again…as right now, the sadness and guilt seem to envelope me constantly.

Thank you all for your advise and guidance….it does help..I look forward to continuing communication and reading what everyone has to say.

October 27, 2011 at 7:39 am

Jorja ~ I think you are right in, “there is not anything a judge can do.” “I just can’t believe that.” – A judge CAN change the visitation order.

PLEASE – check out OurFamilyWizard and see what you think. Also, you mentioned concerns about your son, Dr. Leedom’s book “Just Like His Father” give excellent advice on how to nuture an at risk child. I highly recommend reading it.

Keep us posted and there are many on here who can answer questions.

October 27, 2011 at 9:18 am

Unfortunately due to my financial state, I can only apply for legal aid when having to go to Family court.

I have a court date set for Nov 21st. I hadnt heard anything from the legal aid Lawyer so called to make an appntment before our court date. I reeived a message back from his receptionist that “he doesnt need to see me before the court date so he will not be setting an appointment with me”. I cannot reach him on the phone and he will not give me an email so we can communicate. I have had incompetant Lawyers over the years who have given me bad advise or who were not prepared for trials and my son and I are the ones who suffered for it.

How can a Lawyer who has accepted my case refuse to have communication with me before a ourt date…I dont care if HE want s to see me….I want to see him.

I am so frustrated. They dont care about anything except what the hard facts are…yet my expereience has shown me that Family court is not a black and white venue…it seems to be based on reasonable doubt and who is most believable…

How can I find a lawyer that will help me?

I am desperate.

November 4, 2011 at 8:25 am

Janelle says:

Isn’t it true that the non-custodial parent must sue me for visitation/custody? If so, even though they say the sociopath will fight me tooth and nail I just don’t think I have anything to worry about, except for some harsh words and threats – MAYBE (Because he put on OP on me – Jerk).

1. He signed a consent of adoption for my husband to adopt my son, but we’re divorcing so we didn’t go through with it. Now, this will make him look bad because he didn’t want his son in the first place if he signed over his rights – Right?

2. I have a lot of proof that incriminates him of being controlling and threatening by telling me to keep my child a secret.

3. He has no job, no money, no car.

There’s so much more that I feel will only help my case but I want to be sure that I’m at least on the right track about my expectations. He must sue me, right? And even if he somehow gets money by either begging his parents (who also aren’t very well off) or getting an attorney through the state, the judge would have to consider that he’s never seen our almost 2-year-old, denies him, and makes threats.

Here is an actual email he sent to me after I pissed him off by telling his parents about our son, a month ago, since they had no idea we had a baby together. (Also, this guy is about to have his third baby in three years – 1st: 2009, mine 2nd: 2010, and 3rd current girlfriend: 2011 or Jan. 2012! The current girlfriend rotten, with 2 kids of 2 different dads, 31-years-old, who works in a bar but since she has a Master’s she is supposedly smarter than me and the first mom who have great jobs at well-known insurance companies.) I only told them because my son’s father filed an order of protection against me by lying in court, then contacted me six months later begging to see me and our son for the first time, then changed his mind a week later when I made demands about dropping the OP and admitting our son to everyone. (Yes, replying to him was dumb but luckily I never replied back until he friend requested me with a fake profile on Facebook and he would have to prove he was a liar and a fake. I think a judge will see right through it.) Maybe this will help, too?

His letter to me:

“You are going to rot in hell for what you have done! How dare you do such a thing? YOUR child will never be a part of his supposed biological fathers life. He looks nothing like him, and the father does not have a care in the world for that child, for it is NOT HIS! It is unbelieveable what you have done, or should one say ” tried ” to do. You have failed miserably. And you have also gotten yourself one step closer to serving jail time. Do you like jail? Have you ever been there before? Well, at this rate, you will soon find out! You know what you have done, and don’t ever do anything remotely close to it ever again. You will never have a relationship with who you believe is your son’s biological father, or his family! It will NEVER happen! You are a psychotic, obsessive ugly person, and you should have better things to do than try to mess with people’s lives that want nothing else but to be completely away from you permanently. No one wants to be contacted by you, no one wants to see you, and no one wants to see that child! That child means nothing! Find someone else to be a father to that child, because the person who you think is the father, is not the father nor ever will be. Not now, not ever! You should be totally humiliated and ashamed of yourself for the things that you are trying to do. Complete obsession, complete craziness. You are a horrible human being who deserves everything that you get. You are in this position because it is your fault. No one loves you, no one cares about you, and no one cares about that child. You are forever damned because of it. Find someone else to care for you, because the family you want to be involved with will never give you the time of day. You have no right or no place to do the things you have done, and you will never be forgiven. Not by God, not by anyone. Stay away from an innocent family, who wants nothing to do with you. You and your child will never have anything to do with the people you want to be involved with. NEVER! Nice try though, it was cute. Stay away from the father and his family, or you will be arrested and have criminal charges filed against you. This is your last warning, and only feeling of sympathy that will be given to you. Next time, the autorities will be right at your doorstep to take you away in handcuffs, you obsessive stalker waste of life! Get a life of your own, and stop messing up the lives of others. Find a sucker of a man to take care of you and your bastard child, and leave everyone else alone! You are a sad and pathetic human being, and your cries for help will never be heard by the family you depserately want help from. You choose the path for your child, and now you have to live with it! Karma is something, huh? Maybe you messed with the wrong person in the past, and maybe you did things that came back to haunt you! What a pathetic, ugly lowlife you are! The autorities are on to you, so it is suggested for you to not have any contact whatsoever with anyone in that family ever again. EVER AGAIN! We would all hate for you to end up in jail, time and time again!

Sincerely,
A Concerned Outsider”

November 13, 2011 at 12:47 am

Janelle,
I would guess, by the tone and language that the letter was written by his latest GF. And I would also say that she is a sociopath: she claims to speak for God.

Unless you are able to go NC, you should prepare for some intense drama. He is the influence behind that letter. He likes the triangulation. Do not give him ANY emotional response. He feeds on it. Gray rock.

November 13, 2011 at 1:02 am

Constantine says:

Janelle,

Your leverage here is child-support: if he wants visitation rights, sue him for child support. That alone should ensure that you never hear from him again.

But if he really is your son’s father (and I’ll take your word for it that he is), then that letter (obviously written by the girlfriend) is a fascinating study in denial and human baseness. At any rate, my guess is that he’s milking her for money, so he won’t want to rock the boat by bringing your son (to her, an irritant) into the picture.

I really don’t think he’s going to pursue this. However, if he does, just make sure he’s aware that he will be forced to pay child support. My guess is that that will very quickly settle things. (DNA doesn’t lie!) And if all else fails, just make sure to properly instruct your son on how to make the girlfriend’s life a living hell!

(Speaking of which – if he’s telling the GF that your boy is NOT his son, how would he possibly ever justify having him over for weekends etc.?)

November 13, 2011 at 3:40 am

KatyDid says:

Janelle
I’m with Skylar. Those aren’t the words of a man. Those are the words of a jealous woman. It’s no surprise that women with children on this site are really better off without the father in the picture. Any way you can make that happen? Lowlife men often agree to no visitation in order to avoid maintenance payments. Above all, do NOT let your child be under the control of the B* that wrote such a message to you. It scares me what she’d do to him.

ps goes without saying but am saying it to be obvious, WE care about you and about your child.

November 13, 2011 at 4:14 am

moveingon says:

Janelle, I and my son have been on the end of such hate mail, also sent by the spaths then girlfriend, they married and are now divorced, it lasted 15 months ..she booted him out when the money ran out. Both my children have thankfully not had any contact with the spath in years, and as a result are doing brilliantly. I won’t pretend its been easy but far better than having to deal with the spath and the now ex-wife number 2 or whatever lowlife he can find on the internet. The jealousy pours out of the vindictive mail to you.

With regards to child maintenance, the spath who is unfortunately the sperm donor of my children has used the courts to harass me; he lost big time back in March. He is of course back in court again to harass me just a bit more; that’s what they do ..jealous, of even his own children. The GF wrote that evil mail as she has no doubt been manipulated by him.

If you can walk away do so, he is trouble and so is the GF. Protect you and son. Unfortunately they are like boomerangs; they always come back so if you can never divulge where you are living.

November 13, 2011 at 7:13 am

skylar, Constantine, KatyDid, and moveingon – Thank you so much for your words of advice and I hope everything goes well. I hate that I put myself in a difficult position by responding to even fake emails but I hope the law is smarter than that. I hope they see through the crap like this, in case he uses it against me in court. Oh and yes, he’s milking the bartender for what little she has because he doesn’t have a job, sold his car to pay for their rent, and they’re pretty much dead broke with soon-to-be four kids between the two of them (five if you count my son). I think we’ll be fine and that he’ll want this as easy as possible by doing the paternity test and not going for visitation. It’s really not about the money either but more of an “I told you so” and piece of mind for my son. It’s funny you say that was written by the girlfriend, and if that’s the case then she is in violation of her OP on me. I really hope the law pulls their heads out of their butts and starts seeing that I’m not the bad guy, I just choose not to lie in court to make myself look like the victim. I’ll keep you all posted because this is all about to get very interesting when he figures out he’s still on the hook for child support. He is going to be PISSED!!

November 14, 2011 at 1:12 am

I only have one more question. At the court hearing, the girlfriend will definitely accompany my son’s father because she’s a very jealous woman. There is no way she will allow him to go alone and if she does then I won’t do this, but what do you all think about this plan: When/if the court asks why I filed since they may be suspicious at the fact that my son is 18-months and they have an OP against me, and if the girlfriend IS there, I plan on telling them that I filed because he sent me text messages saying he wanted to see him and me. I will start reading the part where he said he wants to “fornicate” and admit that the language wasn’t appropriate for the courtroom. That way, two things happen: 1. The girlfriend will see that I wasn’t just causing problems to be mean, but was actually being manipulated by him. He thought saying he wants to see our son would be the perfect way to get sex, a new place to stay, etc. 2. The courts may consider dropping his OP for wasting tax dollars and court time making a false request, and perhaps the girlfriend will be so upset with him that she could drop hers, too. One thing you must understand is that his first “baby mama” and the girlfriends after me all fought at first because he created lies and turmoil between us. Now we’re all friends, with the exception of the new one, but that’s because she has no contact with any of us to be convinced of his manipulation. I truly think that this guy has dug too many holes to get out of this one, no matter how “smart” a sociopath is. Why? Because now his girlfriend and law will have PROOF from which I will bring that shows he has been in contact with me, asking for sexual favors, talking about her unfavorably, wanting to see our son, then changing his mind. He can’t lie his way out of hard proof – Impossible. Plus, you must remember that he admitted to two people (his band mate/my friend – AND – his half brother who has told their mom – common parent between them all) that he is the father. What is your opinion? What is the worst that could happen? I know jail time or a fine for me because I broke the rules and DID respond to his fake Facebook profile which he named after my best friend, which I can argue. |:o /

November 16, 2011 at 1:19 am

Janelle,
hmm… very interesting.

actually, the worst that can happen is that the judge is a spath.
But, some “high-class” spaths hate the low-class spaths and will use and abuse them. The one thing that might unite these two kinds of spaths is their united hatred for women. there are lots of those types around. If you have a good relationship with your father or other male authority figure, it might help to bring him to court. I know. It’s ridiculous and despicable to have to bring a man to court to validate you in the eyes of the judge, but that’s the truth. Remember what the judge who belted his daughter said about other children: not believable.

BTW, there are female judges who hate women too, so don’t assume anything. My grandmother hated women. total spath.

Other than those issues, you have a pretty good plan IMO.
Try to make sure that you don’t come across as a Jerry Springer type of person. Keep the drama at a very minimum. Make sure the judge sees you as a victim not a co-enabler. Take on an air of an intellectual. Be an authority.

I know it’s hard. Kudos to you for having the guts. I’m very impressed. I feel like I couldn’t do it, but YOU could.

November 16, 2011 at 3:10 am

Thanks, skylar. I plan on doing everything I’ve read on this site and been advised by all of you, so far. I know that I need to appear assertive but also put myself in the light of being the victim; let him lie and don’t call him out in a rude way. I just need to be sure I have proof for my case, making HIM look crazy and me worthy of having a falsified OP dropped. At the end of the day, my hope is that he is inconvenienced, perhaps thrown out of his place, loses his girlfriend, and is forced to make something else happen. That could mean he moves back home (totally different state!) and that would be fine with me, and even the first mom, her son, and boyfriend (he HATES this guy, too). I hope you’re right and that I’ll have the guts to do this because he is in a corner if I play my cards right. Thanks, again!!!

November 16, 2011 at 11:12 pm

I have family court tomorrow morning…again…same reason…maintenance payments.

My ex works cash jobs only to avoid having to pay maintenance or having wages garnished. I found out in October he had been put on the books, so went right to court and made the appropriate application. One garnishment was taken and then he quit his job last week. A week before court to have his maintenance payments (which are currently zero) reviewed. As usual. It happens every time. Will a Judge not take this into account ?And I also know that he will reply with something about me not being a fit parent, or that I dint allow him to see his son, or that he wants more visitation time with my son etc….its the same thing every time. He sent me a txt message this past Friday first thing in the morning telling me I HAVE to be at my house at 5 so he could pick up our son (although the custody order clearly states that I can decide if the place of pickup will be at my house or another location). Then, 2 hours before he was supposed to pick him up he sends abother txt message saying he doesnt have enough money for gas to come get him (we live 25 minutes away and the custody order also clearly states he is to provide me with 48 hour notice if he cannot pick him up)…then 45 minutes before the “pickup” time, he sends another txt message saying he is on his way to get him. I gave no reaction to any of this as I know he is always looking to get an emotional reaction out of me.

I believe this time, I have enough evidence since July when we last went to court to show he is consistently lying, consistenly breaching the custody order (which he does almost every visitaion weekend) and that he has some obvious emotional and mental health problems, which I believe prevents him from providing a secure environment for my son. I also want to ask for another custody Assessment. One was already done in 2007, whcih basically said he was a sociopath without using that term, and I was given sole custody with him having supervised visits only.

I want to represent myself this time, as legal aid lawyers don’t care about the best interest of my son, and are not interested in fighting a sociopath. If representing myself, will a Judge give me some slack in proceedings, affidavits, cross examinations, subpoening witnesses etc since I am not a Lawyer?

Any thoughts on this?

I am so tired of it all…it is time I stand up and expose him for what he is…and not listen to Lawyers who only want to take the easy way.

He also informed me that his new wife (they met 6 months ago) is now pregnant. This will be his 4th child with 4 different mothers. He has never provided ANY emotional or financial support for any of his previous 3 children. And is even now denying he has another son (yet I have an email written by him in 2008 telling me of his “other” son).

I need some advise…I cannot explain all the evidence I have against him (although I am sure most of you can imagine), as I have 17 typed pages of incidents, breaches and lies just since July 2011.

I am willing to represent myself and write a 100 page affidavit stating every lie, every decietful act, every attempt to avoid paying maintenance, his patterns with every woman in the last 10 years if need be.

Any comments/advise are desperately needed….I will let you all know tomorrow how things went in court.

November 20, 2011 at 9:34 pm

Ox Drover says:

I’m not an attorney: NOTE THAT!!!! LOL

As for representing yourself, I would GUESS that the judge would give you some slack.

I would KEEP IT SIMPLE, as far as the evidence is concerned, so taht you don’t over whelm the judge with shiat.

I would summarize the evidence you have VERBALLY and then hand the judge the list of ALL the events.

What you printed above is a GOOD SUMMARY I think.

The fact that your child’s sperm donor is NOT PROVIDING SUPPORT for the child is to me at least PROOF that he is not a caring parent. The fact that he has children by other women he is ALSO not supporting I think is proof that he isn’t going to be a caring parent to your child.

Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes. God bless.

November 20, 2011 at 9:56 pm

Ana says:

Oxy,
Thanks for the book suggestion. I’ve been reading about Porter Osborne, Jr. for weeks now. WOW, what a kid! I just got through the cat debacle..and the taking off the the extra finger of Boston Harbor Jones..LOL too much!!

November 20, 2011 at 10:15 pm

Dear Ana, I LOVEEEEE those books, and I think that Sams is up there with Hemingway, Mark Twain, Jack London and some of the other great American authors. I just found another book he had written called “Down Town” published in 2007. I sure would like to know the REST of the life of Porter…I wish there were more than the three books about him.

Interestingly enough, part of what I love about the book besides the humor is the assessments that Sams makes about Porter SR. and how the mom handles the drinking and the other women, how Porter JR does….his relationship with Boston Harbor Jones, and the other people in his life.

There are some indepth assessments of how people think and behave and why.

I have a complete set of Sams’ works and I frequently read and reread them, but my all time favorites are the first three. Glad that you enjoyed them. They are the books that make me ROAR with laughter when I don’t feel like laughing. They are my ticket to feeling good when I am down! They make me laugh and they make me cry. It is my pleasure to recommend these books to “thinking people” who appreciate a good writer.
‘

November 21, 2011 at 12:38 am

Hi Oxy,
Yes, it’s very interesting how Porter’s mother behaves toward the father “I’m not mad, I’m hurt” Lookout!! I love reading about his life and his relation to others. He’s a little bastard too!!

I was reading at work the other day and I didn’t realize I laughed out loud..the therapist and client both said “I love it when a book can make you laugh out loud” LOL I looked up and was shocked it was ME!! I love the books and have one more to go. Thanks!

November 21, 2011 at 12:58 am

Ana, there are damn few books that can make me laugh out loud until I have to stop reading for a minute to catch my breath and Sams’ books do just that.

Yea, Sambo was a little bit of a shit, but his pranks weren’t evil, just pranks!

Yea, the enabling that his mother did and the “make sure the neighbors don’t know” kind of attitude is also what I grew up with. His mother knew his father was cheating and yet she pretended she didn’t..”keep the peace at ANY price.” Standing up to him was not an option. Just holding up her head and going on pretending she didn’t know was the only option she considered. That’s sad really.

Anyway, glad you are enjoying the books, I recommend that you get and read the other books too, they are good, but I MISS SAMBO! I want more books about him.

November 21, 2011 at 1:20 am

sheila says:

I am so thankful for this site. Knowing for years that my husband was abusive, I now know that he’s a complete sociopath. We have a few children, and I’m slowly trying to leave without him destroying my life even more. Is there anyone who knows what type of proofs I can gather now while we’re still living together? I have recordings of him being verbally abusive. Does that stand up in court? How old do the kids have to be for them to be witnesses also? What else can I do, I can’t stand much more!

December 10, 2011 at 8:56 pm

Sheila,
different states have different laws about what can be submitted as evidence. You will have to research those that apply to your own state.

As a general rule, it seems to me that most states permit recorded evidence as long as the party in question was aware of the recording being made. In other words, he either agreed to be recorded or he was aware that there was surveillance. Examples are: if he leaves a voice mail, or if there is a video surveillance and audio surveillance sign posted. Also, most actions that are done in public and cannot be expected to stay private, may also count – not sure.

Written evidence is good too. If he sends you emails, text msgs, etc… save them.

December 11, 2011 at 12:21 am

Dear Sheila,
Without knowing your full story or your complete objective (to leave, protect your children, find out what is going on) I’m going to be pretty direct.
For family law recordings, voice mails ect., do not mean anything…Of course keep them..perhaphs they will help if you decide to get an RO…
You must make a decision and if your life is in danger leave…however if you have tme I would suggest this..
Spaths lie, remember you have kids. Figure out your financial situation (establish a cash slush fund)…not in a bank. Cash. You will find that one day you will NEED this if the situation is bad enough. do not let him know you are on to him.
Establish your funds first… however RUN LIKE HELL IF YOU ARE IN DANGER!!!
be smart, have cash, if he is a spath you might need this one day for even a hotel or escape money…as much as you can without a red flag.
Protect yourself and kids first!!! If that means leaving with nothing so be it. If you have the time… gather cash and info on EVERYTHING!!! His SS# DDL # anything and everything. Bank statements ect, make photo copies, keep a spare bag packed in case of an emergency depart… if need be.
If felonies dont mean anything, recording wont… be carefull and stay safe.

December 11, 2011 at 1:01 am

ErinBrock says:

Shiela,
First and foremost, like the others stated…..if your life is in danger get out! PERIOD!
If not iminent…..start gathering info/docs quick.
Trust info
Tax returns (10 years)
Will documents, Medical POA’s.
Bank records,
Retirement account docs,
Investment docs
Insurance policy docs (Health, life, auto, homeowners, business, rental, boats, RV’s etc…)
Pay stub copies (both parties)
Original deeds to real properties
Real estate closing docs
Vehicle titles (original) AND registration document copies.
Power of attorny documentations (either that YOU signed or HE signed)
ALL utility records, account numbers and who’s names their in.
Run a credit report on YOU and see if you can come up with an ‘excuse’ to get him to approve one on him.
Creditreport.com (1 free a year) PRINT THEM! ALL PAGES!
Copies of ALL credit cards in your name AND his.

Get access to ALL bills ONLINE. This will be a lifesaver later. My ex didn’t use a computer so he didn’t realize I had ALL his CC’s and bank statements coming to my private email…..(still do! ).
They also came in the mail……so if he got the bill, he didn’t think anything of it. You can get them to send both paper and online.

Create a private email address he doesn’t know about.
Sign up for a private PO box, in another town. Use that for Private mail.

Collect ALL passwords for ALL accounts.

Get duplicate sets of ALL keys….his car, your car, house, storage lockers, safe deposit box’s, PO Box’s, any and all properties, Rv’s, boats etc…..
(Mysteriously take his key ring when he’s home watching football or whatever…..and jet out and make copies of the whole ring, and they can reappear just as mysteriously).

If he’s got a key to your car, find a ‘similar’ key and exchange it when your ready to leave for the final time.

Take hiim off all of your cc’s……and remove yourself from HIS. (may need him to do this, but you can always call bank and ‘pretend’ you are him).

Put as much cash aside as you can without him knowing….hoard cash!!!!

DO NOT TELL ANYONE, I mean ANYONE what you are doing! Loose lips sink ships.

If you can also mysteriously have his wallet disappear, photo copy EVERYTHING IN IT. Drivers license, CC’s, Club memberships, Airline FF cards. It can reappear an hour later……

Attain a NEW cc in your name only.

Once you get his name off your cc’s….ask for a CREDIT LINE INCREASE…..your gonna need this! Get the max credit line they will give you.

Start paying down any accounts that are in YOUR name….and reduce payment on HIS accounts. IF he notices, you can always say……your paying on the higher interest cards/accounts.

Start cashing out airline mileage reward points…..those are valuable and sometimes you can get cash from them.

Get a copy of his criminal record or driving records.

If you can access his email account, or phone passwords…..take note of the passwords.

Gather any and all photos of your kids or whatever you don’t want to disappear and remove from the home.

Remove from home, all jewelry or valuables, or anything you can ‘liquidate’ for money later.

Take photos of everything in your home, video too. Open drawers and take photos, open closets and photograph. Store pics or disc out of the home. This will help you when he is on to you and starts removing things…..as if they never existed.

Check on the title on your vehicle. If is says Shiela AND/OR spath……transfer it to SHIELA ONLY. If it is in his name, devise a plan to get it in YOUR NAME.

If his vehicle is in your name too…..get it out of your name. (these can be mailed to your private email address).

Get your passport and take it offsite. Photocopy his or mysteriously make it disappear.

Change your VM passwords, computer passwords, online passwords….ALL of your passwords to something HE will Never discover. Change them frequently during divorce process……

DO NOT bring your kids into your divorce. It will NOT serve you well. Judges don’t generally like this.

Remember, a divorce is simply an end of a business arrangement in the courts eyes. No fault doesn’t exist now…..so judges don’t care if you were abused or he had affairs etc…… It’s ONLY a division of assets and custody.
Study the divorce laws in your state. (available online). And KNOW them…..know what to expect and what not to expect in regards to the law. Knowledge = Power. In community property states you must show a grave misconduct or misuse of marital funds/assets to get an inequitable distribution of assets awarded to you.
Decide on a what you think as a fair division of assets and go from there. This is where documentation of misuse of funds is key.
If you play fair, he won’t. Get ready to corner him and document his lies. He will claim no income, he will blame YOU for whatever…..just expect that and go into it as much as you can EMOTIONLESS. Let him make the claims and look like the whackjob. In 2 years of a contested divorce……trust me, he will look like a whacko that he is…..give HIM the rope to hang himself. he will! Just keep tract from afar of all his antics with documentation.
You can ‘walk the legal line’ but ALWAYS appear fair. When in doubt, dont appear vindictive….EVER. You must keep credibility with the courts.
Do not cancel insurance policies, lock him out of house without orders, drain bank accounts etc…. that sorta stuff. (But plan on HIM doing this. I’ve heard of women taking 1/2 of the money out of an account and leaving him half. Id’ get legal advice on that prior.
Judges don’t like this kinda game playing and you WILL be punished eventually.

Eventually is the key word in divorce……it doesn’t happen quickly……..

DO NOT let him know what YOU KNOW. DO NOT threaten him or play power play with him. Directly……do it all covertly. THis will take self discipline and patience.
You will feel jilted…….just keep in mind……it’s the WAR you are out to win…..and you won’t win every battle. EXPECT THIS. It’s OKAY….keep your eye on the ‘prize’, whatever YOU determine that is. Custody, assets…..it’s YOUR life and only YOU can make that determination.

The more you gather, the better off your gonna be!
You will have to file a financial affidavit, go online and see what your states form looks like and what you will need to gather up PRIOR losing access to the info.

Look for a good attorney, consult with several. DO NOT LET HIM KNOW THIS.
Keep in mind that your friends divorces will not be the same as yours. Divorcing a spath is a WHOLE different gig! If you know someone who was successful at divorcing a spath and had a good attorney i’d start there.

Make copies of his contacts/email contacts and telephone contacts. You NEVER know when this will come in handy.

Be prepared to find out things after you boot him…..that you never knew. Just be emotionally prepared to be blindsided……if you are ready to be blindsided the sting is less harsh.
DO NOT TAKE ANY OF IT PERSONALLY! Do not react.

A credit report will tell you TONS about him. IF he has accounts you didn’t know about, cc’s and IF your names on what of his.

Keep current on all copies of bank records. The court will end up needing the past several years. So don’t slack on that. It can get expensive to have to order them from the banks. CC records also.

If he’s a spath….expect battle. Plan on him taking the stance of it’s HIM winning or YOU…… He will hide assets, lie and accuse you of things you’ll be shocked about…..that HE did/does. Prepare to go to battle. If he doesn’t battle…..GREAT, you were prepared.

Most of all……listen and watch your husband. Listen to what he accuses you of…..because if you know you have’nt done something….guarenteed HE HAS. Projection is a major power play. They will tell you what they are up to whith their accusations. Listen, Listen, Listen….and NEVER react. This is difficult….but when you get the fruits from listening……you’ll understand why you just need to shut up. They give you a ‘roadmap’ of their plays.

If you own a house…..STAY IN IT! The minute he’s abusive, call the cops and press charges for DV and go straight to the court and file a TPO DO NOT WAIT. And have him removed from home. ***DO NOT EVER FILE A TPO IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW THROUGH TO THE END!!!!!!!! So many use it as a ‘wake up call’ to bring the abuser back as a new person, then drop the order……and that RUINS it for the next victim including YOURSELF if you ever need another….(and if you drop it, I assure you there WILL be a next time).
If your serious……FOLLOW THROUGH! Validate yourself with the police AND the judges you will appear in front of by following the restraining orders to a T! If he violates them, call the police…..EACH TIME!!! Don’t play games with restraining orders!
Restraining orders make it easy to go NO CONTACT. You must follow them too…..A TPO which you can apply to get extended (states differ with time frames) is a great start of NC. Don’t fool yourself that you must have contact in order to save money with legal fees….this is a play for a spath to ‘talk you into ‘ whatever he wishes…..or have control over you….because he’s always been able to talk you into/outa things during your marriage. NC WORKS…..USE IT! It’s difficult at first….but dedicate yourself to it!

Your kids….. Not knowing how old they are, it’s a hard one for me. typically, 13 is the ‘free’ age. If a kid is 13 or older, the judge may ask for what they want. Keep in mind, if they are teenagers, and a judge orders shared custody and the kids don’t want to go……as long as YOU don’t interfere……they can’t be MADE to go.
So if your kids are older…..set up a custody arrangement where they have to meet dad at say…starbucks at 5pm on Wed. If they don’t show up…..it’s their deal….NOT yours.
If spath takes you back to court on this, a judge can’t and won’t force a kid to go.

I don’t have a lot of advise on younger ones…..mine were older.
I told my kids that I wasn’t going to fight for custody, since it was essentially redundant. They were older, they wanted NOTHING to do with spath father……..so it didn’t matter to me what a judge ordered….I knew they wouldn’t comply……and I knew a judge couldn’t make them. So I didn’t see a point in spending so much money on legal fees for redundancy.
In the end I got sole custody anyways……One of my jr’s got to speak to the judge (17) privately in chambers…..at Jr’s request….it was enlightening to the judge coming from JR of HIS experiences with spath father.

I know friends who the judges don’t want anything to do with seeing the young kids, they will send them to psychologists to testify on behalf of kids or have GAL’s for them as a voice. This is scary to me…..HOY!

Just don’t disparge the father to the kids…..it won’t serve you well. If your kids get it, great….if they don’t right now, they will see whatever they need to see in time. If you force it on them, they will only hate YOU later. Have faith that they will figure it out.
DO NOT CONFIDE In your kids about YOUR divorce. It’s YOUR divorce. There may be a time in the process which your kids turn on you……you will never expect this….but it’s common. Kids loyalty changes with the wind. You’d hate to give your kids power over you by sharing info on tactics or things as such that they could manipulate you by sharing with spath.
Kids will do the darndest things…..say for a WII game or a new bike from dad. We at LF have seen this regularly. Your kids are no different……..

So…..if you have the time and are safe, take that time to plot and plan, make sure this is what you want to do and make sure you are ready to follow through with a divorce.
He will come back with the lovebombs, make certain YOU are strong enough, ready and have made up your mind.
Do not tell a soul about your plans, watch who you trust….you’ll be surprised at the ‘friends’ you end up losing and betraying your confidence and the people who come into your life who you never expected as pillars (family included)……it’s a roller coaster of which you must be tightly buckled in to!!!!

I’m not an attorney…..I just slept in a Holiday Inn express last night…..and learned, through my own divorce experience and research, what worked in my case. I came out VERY successful in court.

Good luck.

December 11, 2011 at 4:06 am

Erin,
that post is so good that it REALLY REALLY should be made into a blog post. It’s information that needs to be referenced by people on a regular basis and be easy to find.

Maybe you can ask Donna if she will make it a top blog post. It’s comprehensive, and it’s not really about legal advise as much as it is about practical stuff and keeping your wits about you – which is so hard to do when you’re taking emotional hits. Spaths know this, that’s why they do it, of course.

December 11, 2011 at 9:52 am

Shalom says:

Erin Brock:
Thank you for one of the most informative posts on LF. Clearly written, simple to follow, step by step advice. I agree it needs to be a blog post. Shalom

December 11, 2011 at 11:13 am

I agree with Shalom, Erin. That is the best and most all encompassing I’ve ever read! All of it Excellent.

December 11, 2011 at 1:00 pm

I third that motion – EXCELLENT

December 11, 2011 at 1:17 pm

WOW! I’m amazed! I’m thunderstruck! Thank you so much Erin!!! Thank you for all your time, your wonderfully organized thoughts and advice! I need time to look through it all and try to apply it. The younger kid doesn’t want much to do with their father, but unfortunately he’s got my oldest one pretty much under his control. How would I get a credit history? Some of his salary is in the black, so though it’s in the bank statements, it can’t be proven that it’s a steady salary.

December 11, 2011 at 9:08 pm

Average his salary out from the point of marriage to today. Go as far back as you can….it will serve YOU well. Since the economy will be exploited by him…poor me, I am not making anything……avg. it out over time. The economy will get better and he’ll still be required to pay child support then. And you can always take him back to court to up the support later. Especially if he get’s another job.

Like I said, unless your kids are in imminent danger, let that work itself out. They WILL see their father for what he is eventually…..it’ll kill ya in the meantime, but try to find a balance with it. Spath will all of a sudden become disneyland dad- dad of the year, buy the kids whatever and play them against you. Expect it. BUT…it won’t last….spaths are sprinters, not long distance runners. Show no emotion with it….and he’ll get bored and not want visitation as much because kids will get in the way of duping others, dating etc……
It’s a way to continue to control you. Keep your household running with the rules and morals you wish to instill in your children, because you don’t have any control over what they do at daddy-o’s, YOU be their teacher, YOU model to them what you expect them to take into the world. Document what they tell you about visits with daddy-o….time dates etc….and file police reports if needed…..but like a judge told my Jr….WE are NOT in the business of breaking up families. I know some states are horrific with custody, the child has to be dead in order to gain full custody. Judges don’t like to take custody/visitation away from either parent. This is where the legal system doesn’t ‘get’ the damage spaths do on children. Get your kids in counseling to deal with any issues. Expect them to not cooperate with counseling, but you’ve planted the seed for them to nourish, at a point they may be ready. It took my eldest Jr 3 years to go back to counseling on his own….it’s been a big benefit for him now.

I have provided the online info in the above post about running a credit report.

December 11, 2011 at 10:49 pm

SuvivorAgain says:

Sheila and ErinBrock:

Please help me. I have been though all of this and more. I have been divorced for 3 years now. I have joint custody of both of my children, but I have not seen either of them in 2 years. I had no idea I was dealing with a sociopath. I received counseling from a psychologist who determined that I have been dealing with a sociopath who is also a malignant narcissist. I also learned during the divorce. Now I am scared to death of him.

Your stories are my stories. I made mistakes early on. My daughters did not want to see their father, but I insisted because I thought it was the right thing to have a relationship with both of us. How incredibly misguided I was. He twisted everything around about me to our precious children.

Yes, do not ever share anything with your children in the divorce. My children stole my jewelry, found my hidden legal files and shared the contents with their father, went through my cell phone records and even hit me. I could hardly believe it was happening to me. I was the stay at home mom. The Mom who took care of them, attended all the school functions, volunteered, etc. My life was my children. Yes, they will turn on you in a heart beat.

My ex-spath is a disney dad too. There are no boundaries, accountability etc. He just bough our youngest 16, a BMW, but claims in court he has no money. He buys them everything — and I mean everything.

When my youngest daughter got caught sealing from the house again, I called the police, in an effort to just talk to her about violating the court’s orders. There was no intention of arresting her. However, the spath came over to my house with the other child, yelled at the police officer and got within 5 ft of the officers face. The spath lied to the officer about me, and our youngest daughter stepped in the said that her father was lying. I was shocked at the spath’s arrogance in front of the police officer. I am always scared of him. Always.

The spath convinced our daughters to testify against me in court that I was an unfit parent. However, in the psychogical testing, some 10 years prior, he was the one with serious anger issues. The court did not allow the children to testify because of my attorney’s objection.

I am asking and pleading, will my daughters every see the truth about her father? I want to love them, but I am so afraid of them. I do not know them anymore, nor can I trust them. What happened to my wonderful daughters who I laughed with, tucked into bed, have heart to heart talks to about boys and life. Where are they? and why do they believe their father.

I will also say that that my oldest, now 18, is so much like her father. It really scares me. Exhibits so may characteristics of a spath. Will they ever see the light?

My oldest has hit me, threatened me and she to me that she knew her father was going to divorce me prior to me filing for divorce.

Its Christmas time, I have tried over the years to connect with them. I have sent emails, small gifts, cards, etc. I do not have very much money. When I sent an email to my oldest, she said that if I sent anyone she was going to call the police because of harassment. So I stopped emailing her and did not send her a Christmas card. Then I hear from the spath that her feelings were hurt because I did not sent her a card. I cannot figure this out at all. I am so worn out and have just about given up all hope.

This Christmas, I would like to just send a card and say to them both, I am wishing you all the best in their lives, and hope you are well. I want to be apart of your lives. Merry Christmas.

I do not want to appear as if I am begging, but what else is there to do?

What are your thought on this? I have desperately tried everything, with no response from them at all. Any suggstions would be appreciated. I have almost given up all hope.

The spath is suppose to pay my alimony, but he doesn’t. I have been through countless attorney’s, but I have found they just rake you over the coals in legal fees with no results.

Please any advice would be appreciated. I have spent countless days crying over what I have lost, years without my children, due to their father’s lies. I need to have some closure. My health has suffered seriously over the past three years as well.

Please I hope to hear from anyone on this subject, especially ErinBrock and Sheila.

December 12, 2011 at 11:34 am

one/joy_step_at_a_time says:

survivor again – you are in the state that we call ‘shock and awe’ – i hear how impossible it is to accept all these horrible things happening, and the end of the dream of ‘family’.

but accept it you must. the ex and your oldest sound dangerous to your heart. please disengage from them. when you look at what they really are – they are not people you can have in your life. they are abusive and horrible NOW – the past is gone. I am so sorry, but it is true and you need to work on accepting that to live well and happy will mean not living with them in your life.

take care of yourself and build your own life again.

December 12, 2011 at 1:14 pm

Dear Survivor again,

One of my son is a psychopath (just like his grandfathers) and is in prison…he stole from me, stole from others, lied about me, lied to me, hit me…etc. and is now in prison for murder. It broke my heart that he was like my P sperm donor, but there is a big genetic component. It took me decades (he is 40) but I have finally come to peace with it. My “son” the little boy I loved and nurtured is GONE, just as if he were dead—the MAN with the same name and facial features is NOT my son, not that little boy I loved and the man is a STRANGER to me. I cannot be a part of his life.

My other biological son isn’t a psychopath, but he is not an honest man,, he doesn’t respect me, and I don’t think he truly loves me…his behavior to me is not honorable or honest, he does not honor his word to me. I asked him to exit my life. It hurt very much but it was the only way I could survive.

I have an adopted son that is a good man, an honorable man, and one that I am proud of. Not proud because I made him what he is, I didn’t, HE DID! But proud to have him for a son and a friend, the MAN he is is a good one.

It hurts to “lose” your children, those kids that you loved, but if you can separate the adults that they are (or are becoming) from the little kids that were sweet and loving, and remember those little kids, and come to grips with the fact that those children are GONE….then you can have peace.

You may, truthfully, never have a relationship with those children who are now grow/n/ing up…but IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT.

It is not my “fault” my son Patrick chose to steal and lie, it is not my fault that he murdered that young woman, it is not my fault he is in prison. I taught him morals and honesty. It is not my fault that my other son lied to me, broke the deal we had, and that he has repeatedly done this to me, or that he has failed to warn me when there were psychopaths “out to get me” and he knew it….but I can’t “be in his life” and trust him. I can’t change his behavior or feelings.

Yes, if you send a card they will be angry about that, if you do NOT send a card they will be angry about that. No matter what you do, it will NOT PLEASE THEM.

Accepting the FACT that you cannot please some people, and that for right now, you cannot have contact with your kids….and it is not up to you to change that. You CAN NOT change that. BUT, it is NOT your fault. Nothing you did in the past or can do in the future will change it.

YOUR KIDS ARE OLD ENOUGH TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS and if they are not psychopathic themselves, there is a chance that they will come back, but don’t hold your breath. Between P genetics and P parenting on the part of your X, they may indeed turn out “just like their father.” I sincerely suggest that you buy and read Dr. Leedom’s book “Just like his father” about this very subject.

Most importantly though, DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF. (((hugs))) and God bless.

December 12, 2011 at 1:47 pm

OX and One: Thank you for your responses. I am so heartbroken and broken — I can’t even put words on this page to describe my pain. WHY?

I raised these girls, loved them, taught them, nutured them. WHY?

Please tell me and show me how to let go. It has been 3 years since my divorce. I have never seen so much hatred in my daughters as I saw 3 years ago.

Do I send a card at Christmas? Here is my concern, when I don’t do anything, spath’s attorney says “Mother doesn’t care about her daughters”. I can’t win for trying.

No, I will never ever trust either of them again. I have to accept what they all are.

I am sure, OX, you can understand my loss as well as anyone else who has had to say good bye to their children. The pain is so very deep.

Sadly, my own sister, has contact with them daily and behaves like she is their mother. She refuses to share anything about my own daughters with me as she says “she doesn’t want to betray their trust”. What about my trust and be being her “sister” and their mother.

My other sister and I will not have anything to do with her. My other sister has not had any kind of relationship with her for abouat 10 years. She figured her out alot sooner than I did. Now after reading about spaths and the damage, it is clear that my own sister is a spath also.

How do you recover? I will get a copy of the book and read it and learn it.

I just had to terminate an email account as the spath kept sending me emails even after I blocked out all of his own email addresses. DONE.

I have to go back to court yet again…. for spaths failure to comply with court orders. Do these spaths ever tire? It seems like they have never ending energy to terrorize.

I am going to truly try to not blame myself, but how could all of this have happen right before my eyes?

Here is a question for all of you, I blogged earlier…..
My oldest daughter mentioned, off the cuff, maybe, or maybe not, that the spath was going to divorce me. I filed before him and I am sure he was furious.

I mentioned to all of you that I truly believe my food was being drugged. My head dropped to my chest as I ate dinner one night. I am the only person in my household that drinks whole milk. I drank the entire glass and I could not even walk up the stairs to bed. Is is possible that the spath would do this and have my daughters involved as well?

Please be patient with me. This is very hard to accept that I may never see them get married, see my grandchildren, etc.

I have the worst nightmares recalling everything that has happened to me. When will this stop too?

Please respond to me.

December 12, 2011 at 5:13 pm

Dear Survivor,

I am so sorry that you are going through all of this, and yes, it does sound like your daughters are following in the footsteps of your husband. It IS very much genetic. Probably if your sister is psychopathic and it sounds like she might be….with her triangling and seeing your daughters etc. At the VERY LEAST she is not emotionally healthy…

I won’t sit here and tell you that it will be “easy” or “quick” because it will be NEITHER EASY NOR QUICK. My fondest wish was to be a grandmother and have a special relationship with my sons’ children…not gonna happen and I grieved for those unborn children that I loved even before they were conceived, but in the end, I am GLAD now that they were never born, because I realize that they would have just been more ammunition for the psychopaths to shoot at me emotionally.

You are not the only one here on LF who has offspring that are pathy, KatyDid has only one daughter and that daughter she is seeing is “just like her daddy” and it is ripping Katy’s heart out, just as it did mine and does yours.

I actually had a little ceremony like a funeral where I buried my P son at about age 12, I destroyed almost all the pictures of him after about that age…and try to remember the cute, sweet little boy that he was and how much I enjoyed being with him, not to focus on the evil man that he became who could in cold blood put a gun to a young woman’s head and pull the trigger, then BRAG about doing it.

It isn’t easy to compartementalize the man versus the boy, the love versus the evil, but I’ve worked on it, and cried rivers of tears, Survivor, but over all I can live with it….that is all I can say.

It is difficult, painful, but you can survive…we must put our trust in our God (whatever that belief is) and in ourselves to BE content, BE at peace, and to BE happy again.

Another book that I found VERY helpful was Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” that he wrote after being in the Nazi prison camps for years and losing everything and every one, only saving his own life….it gave me hope to go on no matter what. If he can do it with all he lost, so can WE—so hold my hand, you are surrounded by caring people here on Love Fraud, who have experienced the tremendous losses you have! We are here for you! God bless. (((hugs)))

December 12, 2011 at 6:55 pm

Survivoragain~

I am very sorry that you are going through this ordeal. I am also the mother of a daughter who has broken my heart into a million pieces.

As far as sending the Christmas card, I will tell you what a psychologist told me several years ago when I was also trying to decide whether or not to send my daughter a birthday card. She said it will not matter to her if you send a dozen roses or nothing. She will look at either in the same way. You can’t do anything right in her eyes, so do whatever it is you feel right doing. Do it for yourself, not your child.

I also understand having to weigh what you do or don’t do on how some attorney or some judge is going to react. There is a time when you have to stop worrying about how things you do are going to be judged. It is time, like Oxy said, to take care of yourself and to survive.

My thoughts and prayers are with you. Stay strong.

December 12, 2011 at 7:17 pm

callmeathena says:

Erin

PLEASE PLEASE get your post to Donna, ask her to make it a leading blog post. It is fantastic. Well done!!!!!

Athena

December 12, 2011 at 8:30 pm

Athena, ALREADY IN THE WORKS! Not to worry!

December 12, 2011 at 8:56 pm

I’m heartbroken for you! What a terrible pain to be going through. Will my daughter be like that? It’s too awful to think of! I’m new to this and I don’t know if it’s right – those with more experience please let me know, but I would try to send a card. I would tell myself it’s a last effort and after that I can start a clean slate and not make another effort. I would do it especially for the youngest daughter. What if she’s not a spath and she’s surrounded by a father, sister and aunt who are?! It’s worth saving her! I would write a letter saying that you’ve always been their mother who’s loved them and cared for them and that you want to have a close relationship with them. Tell them they’re mature enough now to realize that you’ve reached out to them and now they can respond. If they want a relationship, you’re here. Then leave it and do nothing more. Since you’ve been a stay at home mom for so long, find yourself. Find out what your interests are. Join that health club, take a course to give you skills to get a better job. Take up a hobby. Go out with friends. Do something for YOURSELF. You’ve suffered so much, it’s time you have some pleasure in life. That’s the biggest revenge to a spath! Show him that he can’t get you down, that you’re worth something, and happy with yourself. Do all those things you couldn’t do all those years that you had little kids to take care of!

For everyone else, is there something I can do that my daughter won’t end up like her father? I once had a heart to heart talk with her and I really believe she answered me honestly that she does feel other people’s pain. She is more unemotional and rarely cries (for others). But she is very kind and helpful to anyone who needs help. She can’t stand when a kid is crying and tries to help them. I think she’s just got a bad example of an abuser (her father) and copies him sometimes towards me, but I don’t think that it’s her real personality inside.

December 12, 2011 at 9:03 pm

OXY and MILO: Thank you for your response. I will try my very best to stay strong. It is Christmas, and very difficult. Yes, I am Christian and a believer in God. Throughout this terrible ordeal, I know God has been watching over me. I have never been without food, clothing, shelter or friends. How blessed am I. Look at all of you who have offered guidance.

Sheila: Regarding the card, we (spath and I) have been told that we are not communicate anything about this divorce to our daughters 18 & 16. I have not, since I do not see them. I, know, the spath does. If I should write a letter or card to my youngest daughter, I am chancing that she will give it to her father and I will be in contempt of court. I cannot afford to take the chance.

I think just a card for the two of them wishing them a joyous and wonderful Christmas will be all. I will also let them know I am thinking of them and praying for them.

Also, Sheila, it is difficult to do almost anything since the spath does not pay the alimony he is court ordered to pay. As you all are aware, the economy is in shambles, and I have not worked for some 17 years. I have not been able to find a job. So needless to say, there is not extra cash for fun things to do.

Sheila, I, too, am new at this site, just a mere week. I only wish I had found it years ago. How blessed are you to have all of us to help you though. Don’t give up on your daughter. How old is she? Just be very careful. Don’t be too trusting as I have experienced, they will turn on you in an instant.

Thank you all so very much for your kind words and guidance. When will the nighmares, true nightmares, end so that I can get a peaceful night’s sleep?

Unfortunately, even without reading the book “Just Like His Father”, I can see the very same characteristics in my oldest daughter. I even read some of the blogs about disciplining children who are “fearless”. Oh my gosh, it is the words of my spath ex-husband. He would tell me, it doesn’t matter how much discipline you give her, it doesn’t matter, it will not stop her or change her, she is just like me”. When the saw those words in the commentary about children of spath, I realized more than ever that my oldest daughter is also a spath.

Here is a question for all of you who have had to cut all ties with your children, how do you explain all of this to people what you meet without sounding cold/indifferent or like the court awarded custody to your ex?

People are very judgmental and then think you are an unfit parent or abusive parent.

Please respond.

December 12, 2011 at 9:32 pm

ERIN: Thank you so very much for your well thought out blog. It should be posted. I only wish I had all of this knowledge 5 years ago before I filed for divorce so that I would be more well-equipped to handle the inevetitable.

December 12, 2011 at 9:43 pm

What other people think must become NOT IMPORTANT TO US. That is difficult too, but for example…back in 1491 Columbus was about the only one in the world to think the world was round, but the fact that NO ONE BELIEVED HIM did not change the SHAPE OF THE WORLD or the truth.

It is difficult, and I share your frustration, when no one believes us, but WE KNOW THE TRUTH and sometimes what we know as truth is all we can do. Validate ourselves. Not look for others to validate us. TRUTH IS STILL TRUTH IF NO ONE BELIEVES IT. (((hugs)))

December 12, 2011 at 9:44 pm

Sheila: You asked how to get a credit history. It is very simple. Go the the website FreeCredit.com. It is free. You will have to answer some questions about your ex, most of which I would think you will know. If you answer correctly, from what I have been told by others, you will have access to his credit history, all of the cc, how the money is being spent etc. Good Luck. I understand that it worked for a few friends, hopefully it will work for you also.

If not, if you have an attorney, they can run a credit history for you also. It will cost you attorney time. Try the first.

December 12, 2011 at 9:53 pm

Good Night Everyone. Hopefully I will get some much needed rest.

God Bless.

December 12, 2011 at 9:55 pm

Survivor;
I (fortunately) haven’t had the heartbreak that you’ve had with your kids.
That said, here is my best advice. You will be their mother regardless of any circumstance.
No-one can take that from you.
I would suggest keeping in touch and not giving up…..heres why.
Kids go through so much in the teen years. Then add a spath father and divorce to the emotional mix. It’s turmoil spinning in their minds.
When my kids were kidnapped by spath, I felt the betrayal….I felt the break of trust, I felt I was never going to get my kids back.
In the fashion my kids were taken, they were duped. I didn’t understand, and quite frankly still have a hard time understanding some of it.
Regardless, it happened.
Once I discovered where my kids were, I called, emailed and left messages. The kids were told I was mentally Ill and not to speak to me. They wouldn’t take my calls. I continued to call and email and keep in touch with a contact ‘close’ to them. That contact acted as my go between.
I believe that by doing the above, it showed them my love. It showed them they could count on me and I was always here for them. (mentally Ill or NOT!) LOL!
But really……it confused them that I would continue to call their school, talk to teachers, email them and call them and send easter baskets and cards. I was the same parent as I was at home……and just because they were gone and being austracized from me, this didn’t take away my parental rights OR love and concern for them.
The minute I saw an opening to them…..I took it! I left my treatment early in Houston and flew to where they were. My brother was the only one who knew I was coming. He was the go-between. He didn’t share this with anyone.
I showed up on the streets where my eldest Jr was hanging out with his new friends from school……and blindsided JR. I tried calling him repeatedly, he didn’t answer. I always called from MY number, UNBLOCKED so he knew it was me calling.
My brother called him and he ansered…..telling brother where he was at. Brother called me and told me where to go to find him. I did.
Sometimes I would call Jr 10 times repeatedly…..until he answered. Sometimes I’d just call once and leave him an I love you message.
I know kids didn’t get what I’d send to them, unless it was mailed to my brother.
I found a loophole…..and that was my brother.

Point is…..Keep showing your kids you love them, don’t ever give up. EVER!!!!! At some point in time, I believe they will see the ‘light’ and come back to you.
They will find it hard to come back to you if you haven’t taken the long haul with them…..for them.
Sometimes I feel like its’ a test. They learn it from the spath. It gives them power in this world….and unfortunately, YOU are the one getting hurt.

Believe, there WILL come a day…….BELEIVE!

My day came on that ‘visit’ when no one knew I was coming. I spent 1/2 hour with JR and dropped him off at my parents home where spath had taken them months earlier. I asked Jr if he wanted to spend some time with me…….he said yes, but he didn’t think gram/gramps would let him…..I told him it was NOT up to them, I was his mother and legal guardian. If HE wanted to come with me……I would pick him up the next day after he did his chores and we would spend as much time as he wanted together. He stayed with me at my brothers for a week. On the last night…..we sat in the car in a parking lot as he gazed out the sun roof. He said……OMG…do you remember when spath took us to that drug house???? AT THAT MOMENT…..I knew HE HAD GOTTEN IT! He said…..He’s done the same thing again!!!!!!
I said….Yes…..
His brain rolled with the reality of what he had been duped into.
He had gotten it!
I couldn’t have foreced it on him……HE GOT IT ON HIS OWN.
The other Jr’s followed……at different points…..but on their own

The kids have had NO Contact since that point with their spath father…….THEY GOT IT, and with the behaviors that followed……..they learned all about the toxic father they were born from. ON THEIR OWN!
I’ve always told my kids……they can have a relationship with anyone they choose…..(Toxic Grandparents or Spathfather) It must be THEIR relationship and NOT include me in any form. But I will always be there for them!!!

Just keep the faith…….it’s painful…..but YOU are their mother and no one can ever take that from you!!!!!

December 12, 2011 at 11:26 pm

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10 tactics for child custody battles with sociopaths

593 Comments to “10 tactics for child custody battles with sociopaths”

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