263 Comments to “Why did I stay with the sociopath?”

1. OxDrover says:

   M. L.

   Very eloquently put–and I can say “amen” to every word of it.

   Peace and God bless.

   Sunday, 13 April 2008 @ 11:56pm

2. LilOrphan says:

   ML:

   That’s such a great message. You seem to really be fully on the other side of things, looking back. Getting to that point took me several years, last time.

   Did you experience any period of time where, even though you knew better, you still held on to the dream, or mourned the dream, feeling like this person was still somehow the person you were meant to be with, even though you rationally knew better?

   Anyone? I truly hate that feeling. Kind of knew going to a specific wedding over the weekend would trigger it, but hate the feeling all the same.

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 5:48am

3. M.L. Gallagher says:

   Thanks OxDrover, Free and LilOrphan — LilOrphan — absolutely. I had those times where I yearned for what never was because I so desperately wanted the dream of what never could be with him.

   I had to make a choice — yearn for make-believe, or step into my truth today. I am an awesome woman of worth.

   I chose the latter — and yup. Weddings do have the ability to trigger my self-defeating games and all my tapes in my head that undermine me.

   One of the things I constantly did, especially in the beginning, was when those thoughts arose, I’d ask myself — does this thinking get me more of what I want in my life, or less?

   LOL — the answer was always LESS. So, I’d let the thought flow free and replace it with something affirming — like “I am a wonderful woman of worth. I deserve a wonderful life where I feel worthy 100% of the time.” And then I’d do something that affirmed me.

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 9:10am

4. OxDrover says:

   ML, I think to one extent or another that all of us hang on to that dream even when we realize it is a nightmare of monstorous proportions. I know for sure that I did.

   I think, for me at least, that facing that TRUTH that I was ALLOWING the abuse by remaining in the relationships, that I had too OWN THAT TRUTH, that unpleasant truth.

   Sure, I didn’t deserve that treatment, they were responsible for treating me badly, but I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALLOWING IT.

   Until I assumed my OWN part, my OWN responsibility, and MADE CHANGES IN ME, I could not break free.

   Truth is painful, but it is only when we face truth and reality that we can be free.

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 9:34am

5. jules says:

   dear every one; why did i stay. i know i stayed, i was lonley i was fed up with guys who didnt seem to care much and wanted a relationship. the s came along and he was so caring affectionate and into me it was great but after a while i saw thru him just a little and thought something was not right he was too keen almost and really in fact had very little to offer. so i broke it off very early, well he wept and seemed really hurt, he even said thank you for making him happy for the short time we had been together. i felt very bad and guilty for hurting him . anyway after being a part i missed the attention he gave me and felt overwhelming lonely i wasnt meeting any one else and i thought even though he was younger than me he just seemed to love me so much i mistook his affection for real love. so i called him and i took him back much to my detriment, and so the misadventures started. so i know i took him back and stayed with him because i was lonely and wanted to be with someone so much and being with him ended up hurting my self. now he s with a new victim and i am alone and still feel twangs of pain from time to time. i am also sure the new victim is mistaking his affection for real love as i did. so it tricks people the attention and affection they pile on so much makes us think he must really love me so how could i leave him . i feel very bad that this is probably playing out now with his new victim. it must be like a total replay of the realtionship i had with him. now i have the knowledge to see what happened but when your a new victim you have no idea what is playing out in your life. so i am still lonely at the moment but trying to make my life the best i can and be strong. but at least i am not second guessing something he tells me and wondering constantly about his behaviour lik e the new girl will . its sad but a relief for me. i do get jelous that he is with someone else and i am alone but then i think she doesnt know how ugly he can be she probably hasnt seen that side of him yet. thanks what a great blog.

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 9:40am

6. rperk6069 says:

   ML, This blog has been extreemly helpful for me. For the past year I kept beating myself up over “Why, why, why did I stay?” For 6 long years no less. Everything you have wrote has touched me, words and thoughts I could not put together myself, for myself to get beyond the why and break the final tie that has held me back from the final stages of healing. Thank you so very much.

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 11:42am

7. LilOrphan says:

   “I had to make a choice — yearn for make-believe, or step into my truth today. I am an awesome woman of worth.

   I chose the latter — and yup. Weddings do have the ability to trigger my self-defeating games and all my tapes in my head that undermine me.

   One of the things I constantly did, especially in the beginning, was when those thoughts arose, I’d ask myself — does this thinking get me more of what I want in my life, or less?

   LOL — the answer was always LESS. So, I’d let the thought flow free and replace it with something affirming — like “I am a wonderful woman of worth. I deserve a wonderful life where I feel worthy 100% of the time.” And then I’d do something that affirmed me. ”

   Thanks for that, ML. Despite feeling like a weepy woman of witlessness, today, I know I’m a wonderful woman of worth, too.

   We all are.

   Today I was thinking that the reason I have so much trouble just accepting that he wasn’t real, didn’t really mean all those things is because it will result in one of two very horrible ways of thinking:

   1. I will lose my faith in humanity in general, and distrust men to the point of never moving forward,

   or

   2. I will lose my faith in my ability to discern, my own judgment ability.

   Either of those things is untenable. They would mean in the worst possible sense that I’ve lost something profound. My dad asked me a few minutes ago if I think I will ever trust another person again besides he and my kids. I said NO. Honestly, I don’t. If I see my ex as having done all this deliberately and maliciously, baiting me with a future that he never intended to happen just to break my heart, I will never trust.

   Maybe that is part of why we struggle so hard to stay and to hold on to the good we think we see in them, and the love?

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 11:48am

8. rperk6069 says:

   LilOrphan-I don’t usually put myself out there…but here goes…
   You didn’t LOSE something profound, you GAINED something profound. It sucks to have learned a very hard lesson from a psychopath, but we all have and you will find that eventually, maybe not today or tomorrow, you will trust again. For me personally, little by little I am learning to trust but it comes within me, my ability to trust myself. Trust then, flows outword. I don’t know if that makes any sense…but I do know, you will trust again, in time, but it will be different because you will be able to see, from your experience if they are trustworthy or not. Rita

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 12:00pm

9. M.L. Gallagher says:

   Jules — that is a wonderful gift you give yourself to not be in a place where you are second guessing everything he tells you.

   I realized after the sociopath was gone that I was alone, but I wasn’t lonely. I was getting to know the most incredible person I will ever meet — me — because I will never know anyone else as well as I will know me. If I’m going to spend that much time with me, I figure I’d best enjoy it, revel in it, and fall in love with the person I’m getting to know!

   Keep breathing Jules, the feeling of loneliness will dissipate as you fall deeper and deeper in love with you.

   Thank you rperk — I appreciate your words and I’m grateful you are stepping deeper into your healing journey.

   LilOrphan,

   I agree with rperk — you didn’t lose something profound. Trust does begin inward — I love the way rperk expresses it.

   When I first got my life back people always asked, will you ever trust someone else again. Trusting others wasn’t my issue. Trusting me, to turn up for me, to be true to me, to stand by me and uphold my values, principles and beliefs — that was my issue. I had to learn to trust in me and to believe I had the courage and strength to ‘do the right thing’ no matter the circumstances.

   Trusting others is a decision. Trusting myself is a commitment I make to me.

   I agree with you that sometimes we struggle so hard to say because we think their ‘good’ is what we need, was what we were looking for.

   If I go back to the woman he told me I was when we met, if I’d believed I was that woman, I’d never have needed him to tell me. But, the other side of that coin is, he was mirroring back to me who I truly was. So, while he may have lied about everything he was, everything he did and would do, while he may have manipulated and decieved me, in the beginning when he told me I was wonderful — that was true! I am wonderful.

   Difference is, today, I don’t need someone else to tell me. I know and respect my truth.

   Something that really struck me in what you wrote as deeply profound was your acknowledgement of the two things you feared.

   If I look at those two things — they are both ultimately choices I get to make. And I don’t believe anyone else should have the power to take from me two tenets that I hold as deep personal truths: 1. I have faith in humanity; 2. I am discerning human being.

   You are so right LilOrphan — losing those two things is untenable — and you don’t have to lose them. Ever.

   he doesn’t deserve the power nor right to take them from you. Don’t let him.

   In your wisdom, in your growth since the end of that relationship you are embracing your truth — courageously and fearlessly.

   when anyone asks me, will you ever trust another, I tell them — I choose to trust everyday. I trust myself to keep doing what is right and loving and caring for me and those I love. That’s a huge step for me and I’m really proud of myself for taking it. IN that step, I am teaching myself to be trustworthy. I am teaching myself how to trust.

   Be bold. Be brave. Be your most incredible wonderful self — even when you’re feeling weepy and witless, you know the truth, you are a wonderful woman of worth.

   Hugs,

   ML

   Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 1:45pm

10. LilOrphan says:

    rperk and ML:

    You’re both right. Knew I hadn’t lost my trust, but thinking that the reason I can’t give up on him completely had to do with the fear of one of those two outcomes. Many years ago, when we stopped seeing each other, I did lose my faith in myself. Was pretty miserable without him, actually, and blamed it all on me. I also couldn’t seem to really move on then.

    Do trust myself. That’s why I had to walk away. He wasn’t treating me right and this time I wasn’t having it, wasn’t going to just sit back and allow myself to be treated that way.

    But this final piece - disconnecting from the love I felt and the hope I’d had that we would eventually marry and have a real life together, accepting that he clearly didn’t mean any of it because Elvis has left the building - this is difficult.

    The pain I’m feeling feels right somehow. Too much to explain, other than to say that I think I’m working myself through it rather than around it or denying it or all the many ways we use to stay mired in bad things.

    Pain is okay. It’s just a sign of change, and change is ok, too.

    Thanks, both of you. Helps to know you’ve been there, you’ve felt the same push and pull inside, but ultimately chose to honor yourself first and not be with someone whose actions hurt, even though you did feel love for them and wish for so much more.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 2:36pm

11. alohatraveler says:

    ML and rperk,

    The person we are learning to trust more than anyone is ourselves because we let ourselves down. We ignored all the signals and gave trust when our bodies told us not to.

    My trust issue is with me more than anyone else.

    Rperk - you pointed out that what we are learning is to give trust when a person is proven to be trustworthy. I used to trust anyone with my deepest emotions, my everything… thinking they would except my vulnerabilities as me being my authentic self or something like that. I gave people parts of me that didn’t know what to do with, that they had no business having.. and then I felt betrayed when I was attacked or judged or whatever. How embarrassing to admit that.

    Dear friends have told me that I can be “transparent.” When I heard this, I wondered, is that good? or not good? I am learning when to be. Being highly selective with my inner being is a learning process for me.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 2:42pm

12. rblue says:

    okay…i know you guys know me from going back and forth and here i am at that place where i want to get out again!!!! a few good couple of days then I get a text from the other woman again about him calling her earlier that day telling her things that i said about her (which i did not) and also telling her that i am jealous bc they will always be closer then him and i…but he is wanting to come here in like 3 weeks and get married….married b4 he even moves here. okay i was smart enough to tell him no i cant do that….but now i want to leave again. but every time i try i get the whole speech how i promised not to do this again. not to listen to her…he makes me feel really stupid….for listening to her. i mean she sounds believible when she talks to me…then he sounds believible when he talks to me…..DO I HAVE TO TELL HIM IM DONE THIS TIME OR CAN I JUST BE DONE AND NOT HAVE A GOODBYE TALK????????? he keeps telling me im “the one” for ever….but i cant help but believe her……..!!!

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 2:49pm

13. alohatraveler says:

    rblue,

    I am SURE I told you before… don’t say goodbye. Just disappear. You DO NOT need to tell him why it’s ending or apologize for hurting him. He’s not really hurt. He’s mad that he’s losing control over you.

    Change your number. Block his email or better yet, get a new email address and register it under a false name. One of mine is under Elise NoName. He will never find that if he does a yahoo search.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 3:01pm

14. alohatraveler says:

    rblue,

    LET HER HAVE HIM IF SHE WANTS HIM SO BAD! You at least have this website. You KNOW what you are up against. He is a loser and a manipulator.

    Here is one thing I learned… you have one life. Don’t waste your time.. your YEARS of time on someone like that! If you keep doing this, you will one day look back and say, OMG… I wasted so much time with a man that was torturing me when I could have been putting my own life together and meeting nice men and maybe even finding someone REAL who loves me. Each day you waste, you don’t get back. And each day you waste is keeping you farther and farther away from finding the relationship you really want. And by the way.. start with a relationship with yourself.

    At this point, YOU ARE ABUSING YOU! Put a stop to it.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 3:07pm

15. rperk6069 says:

    Aloha,
    That is EXACTLY right…I let myself down and I’m still angry about that (working to get over it). After the scum bag piece of s***, I said I hate people, that was not true, I was scared of people, how they could hurt me. Now I look around a bit more and find there are still good people out there and I am very fortunate to have some of those good honest people in my life. Amazing.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 3:18pm

16. rperk6069 says:

    Staying connected with this new girl is just as destructive as staying connected with him.
    I had to eventually “drop out” without any explanation, he didn’t deserve one anyway, and he knew. For the longest time, I tried to explain to the scub bag piece of s*** why I couldn’t take it anymore, maybe hoping that he would suddenly come around and see how much he was hurting me and do an about face. I am ashamed to say I did this for almost 6 years.
    Never happened. Eventually, I got it, changed my numbers, moved and started a new job. It was hard but not nearly as hard as living every day with the terrible drama and stomach aches.
    I keep hearing this over and over lately…you can’t change your past, but today will also be your past so what you do today and tomorrow and so on, can become a very good past for you if you change what you do today.
    As hard as it has been for me to wrap my mind around that concept some days, it is so very true. I will never again waste 6 days, let alone 6 years with someone as destructive as he is.
    I agree with Aloha, let her have him, jump out of their pathetic, hurtful, evil game. It gets better.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 4:14pm

17. LilOrphan says:

    Ok, rperk and Aloha, I do get it now.

    This:

    “Dear friends have told me that I can be “transparent.” When I heard this, I wondered, is that good? or not good? I am learning when to be. Being highly selective with my inner being is a learning process for me.”

    Wow, do I get this. I remain, to my detriment, very unguarded. Not quite as bad as, say, ten years ago, but definitely unguarded. Can’t decide if I think that takes tons of courage, loads of fearlessness, or is just ridiculously silly of me.

    Call myself “Saran Wrap” and so do other friends. Some day I hoped to find someone who would not abuse that quality, but appreciate my openness and warmth for what they are.

    Agree rblue that you have to get away, even if you have to tell yourself it’s temporary in order to do it. If this man really loves you (and I hate to say it, but men juggling women aren’t the poster children for mature love) he will not be gone for long, or forever. He will give up all other women for you, including the rampant emailer.

    At the very least, change your email. Don’t let either one of them disturb you!!

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 5:18pm

18. OxDrover says:

    RBLUE,

    YOU do not–N-O-T— owe him a thing, not even a F#%K-OFF JERK!

    He will tell you ANYTHING to make you blame yourself. If a stranger came up on the street and starting urinating on your leg, would you owe him to tell him POLITELY to quit!? Of course not! Neither do you owe this EVIL man anything.

    YOU HAVE GIVEN, he has TAKEN. He has NOT given. He is the lie.

    HE IS THE LIE. HE IS THE LIE. HE IS THE LIE. HE IS THE LIE.

    Do NOT—N-O-T– talk to him, do NOT e mail him, do NOT read his e mails, do NOT listen to his voice messages, do NOT open the door if he shows up–call the cops–don’t even yell at him through the door. DISAPPEAR if you can. and STAY AWAY FOREVER.

    It is the ONLY way you will break free. It is YOUR decision, and YOU must SAVE YOURSELF. But you will also have the concequences if you choose to not save yourself and your child. If you “win” him over the other woman, YOU LOSE.

    Take care of yourself RBLUEl–only you can.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 5:53pm

19. hummingbird1418 says:

    I too feel the loss of love and the hope that we might have gotten married and moved to Maine to retire (his promise).

    I wasted four years with this man M.L. Gallagher so you are not alone. I saw red flags over and over and ignored them. He was always telling me I was insecure when I suspected his activities and his involvement with at least one other woman.
    I believed his lies. He borrowed money from me.

    I had many nice men ask me out over the past four years and I turned them down because I thought that I was in a committed relationship. What a fool!

    I am currently reading How to Spot a Dangerous Man by Sandra Brown. I should have read this before I got involved with this man. He fits into 2 or 3 of the categories.

    1. Emotional Predator: Predators have a natural ability for reading women who are lonely, bored, needy, emotionally wounded or vulnerable. Predators are the most skilled of all dangerous men at seeking and finding women who satisfy their current hunger - whatever it is. Emotional predator’s number one feature is their unbelievable charm.

    2. The Man with the Hidden Life: The man with the hidden life leaves women feelin the most “duped” or “fooled”. These men have an uncanny ability to compartmentalize their existences so that their professional lives and their hidden, pathological lives seem to be unrelated - at least in their minds. He has the luxury of living a complete other life beyond your eyes and your knowledge.

    All of this almost guarangees that a man with a hidden life is a combo pack. His mental-health issues, addictions, emotional unavailability and predatory instincts combine to make him someone to be feared.

    My S. was leading a hidden life with another woman who went to his family functions and vacations. He is an emotional predator and would also fit in as emotionally unavailable. It is indeed a combo pack of psychotic behaviors and I fell for it hook, line and sinker.

    This website has been a lifesaver for me. I needed somewhere to talk about my experiences with someone who would understand how a seemingly intelligent woman could be caught in this man’s spider web of deceit.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 6:09pm

20. OxDrover says:

    Hummingbird,

    Boy, did you describe my XBF-P! Emotional predator AND the man with the hidden life.

    He had so many separate “lives” in so many places, I am not sure HE knew what he wanted or who he was! LOL When his wife caught him (after 32 yrs of abusive marriage) and kicked him to the curb—the “role” he needed of “respectable wife” was unfilled and he decided to tap me for that role, while hanging on to his “harem” which was scattered across several states. Since he was retired and traveled a great deal he could keep them separate and off his back about marriage–but only if he had a respectable wife at home to keep up his image of “respectable member of the community” and to tell them, “I just couldn’t leave poor Jane” “I couldn’t be that cruel” DUH! LOL

    I was in the FOG, but I’m not stupid and there were too many connections, including I knew his x wife as long as I had known him, and I also knew one of his long time GFs (8 yrs) so I ended up putting 2+2=4 togther and kicked him to the curb. It BROKE MY HEART to do so–shattered my illusions and my DREAMS, but at least I did ONE thing right in all the Ps I’ve had in my life. EVEN A BLIND PIG GETS AN ACORN NOW AND THEN. Laugh & roll on the floor.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 8:03pm

21. peggywhoever says:

    Aloha, LilOrphan;

    I understand your statements regarding “transparancy” or “saran wrap”. Like you both, I have always been extremely open and candid. When friends have asked me a question (other than ‘do I look fat in this?’) I have asked them, “do you really want to know the answer?” Because they know I will be totally open and honest with them. But I believe this “transparency” means we do not have secrets, or a hidden motive or agenda, we wear our hearts on our sleeves, and are who we are. There is a beauty in this…in being true to ourselves and to others, so do not let the S take your beautiful openness and trust in humanity from you.

    Happy upcoming birthday Aloha. Thanks for all you contribute to this site with your articles, your good solid advice, and your sense of fun!

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 8:10pm

22. LilOrphan says:

    Peggy:

    I wouldn’t normally ask this, but since you have my email already, do you have time to talk tonight via email? I really need someone to talk to today. For whatever reason, things are not getting better and I’m at work, trying to get my head together. Thanks if you can. If not, I understand.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 8:34pm

23. hummingbird1418 says:

    Thanks for the comments, Orphan. These S. do seem to be a combination of all the characteristics of dangerous men.

    I wanted to add another thought from this book:
    Women with weak boundaries fail to verbalize and take action on what they need. They stay quiet and hope somehow it will work out. But the message your silence sends to a dangerous man is that you consent to his inappropriate behavior.

    I made a major step forward today by e-mailing my ex-husband and telling him the truth about this man’s interference and manipulation of me while we were still married. I took responsibility for what I did since the final decision was mine.

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 8:48pm

24. OxDrover says:

    Hummingbird,

    Good for you! I know your relationship with your ex-husband may not ever be completely healed, but making amends to him, and telling him the truth should lift a burden from your soul. One of the things I think it is important for us to do is to go back to anyone we feel that we have not treated as our own moral code would expect us to do, and making a sincere “clean breast” of it.

    A while back my son C and I had a real heart to heart and that is so important. Fortunately our relationship has not only been restored but strengthened—but I lost 8 years of him while he was married to the P-DIL, she isolated him etc. typical stuff. He knew I didn’t approve of her behavior (though I kept my mouth SHUT–big holes iin tongue) LOL

    We both had some apologizing to do, and I am glad that we did it.

    I also went to several friends of mine that had “let me down” when I tried to talk to them before the “blow up” and they refused to listen to me at the time—my story was “outrageous”—but I didn’t want that to end long term, decades old friendships—in both cases we reaffirmed our relationships.

    Unfortunately, a relationship with the Ps, sometimes ruins other relationships we have had for decades. Sometimes they come out better, sometimes, we lose the forever, but at least if we can mend fences enough that neither we nor they have any real “hostility” left, at least we can part friends.

    Especially if it is a relative or someone close to our family.

    I am so proud OF you and also FOR you! You are a GOOD WOMAN! (((hugs))))

    Monday, 14 April 2008 @ 10:20pm

25. hummingbird1418 says:

    I felt a great relief telling my ex-husband the truth. I owed him an explanation for some of my irrational behavior.
    I have to talk to my children as well.

    Thanks for all the words of encouragement.
    The lies need to be exposed in order to heal and move forward. I was keeping a hidden life as well from my family and unlike the S. I couldn’t deal with it.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 7:00am

26. LilOrphan says:

    Thank you for the hug, Free. I know these times pass and, in my case, are often triggered by hormones. Tend to not dwell on things most of the time and then every so often they jump up and bite at me.

    We all respond to childhood abuse in different ways as children and adults. My way was denial and pretending everything was fine. That’s enabled me to be a “great” partner to N’s and P’s because I am already so skilled with sublimating the bad actions of someone else, loving them anyway, and blaming myself. In fact, I’d say I was pre-programmed to love N’s and P’s because of that talent, putting up with the untenable from people I love.

    But unless aiming for some sort of twisted sainthood, my being this way earns me very little in life, except shame, sorrow and more self-blame. Sooo….no mas. I didn’t quite go the same direction, although probably I did and still seek validation, not of my personality or being liked because that always came very easily, but that my experiences and perceptions are accurate because my entire family pretended like what was going on was not going on when I was a kid. They still do. So the voicelessness I also understand and share with you - writing does really help that.

    Did you light your candle, play your music and write? I was at work last night, utterly useless and weepy, but fortunately alone. Today will be better and so will tomorrow.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 7:00am

27. LilOrphan says:

    Hummingbird:

    The N’s and P’s project their faults onto their partner. By forcing you to lead a “double life” as well, he was creating company for himself, corrupting you with his own failings.

    Now that you’re out of the fog and see that life was never really yours, but you somehow participated in in nevertheless, you naturally would feel great relief telling the truth and no longer being a part of it. You didn’t own the desire for the behavior, so now it must seem incredibly foreign to you that you could do that in the first place.

    I suspect mine had multiple lives because he was so secretive and able to compartmentalize, and agree that those are a very dangerous breed, because the entire premise requires us to ignore our own eyes and ears. They become more blatant in time with the fact other things are going on behind the scenes but by then we’re hooked and unable to move in other directions.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 7:07am

28. Ariadne says:

    Hummingbird,

    It is wonderful that you told the truth to your ex husband. Talking to your children will probably make you feel even better. After years of keeping quiet on my S stepmom’s abuse, I finally wrote a letter to my dad this year. I told him that I didn’t blame him, but that his wife caused me more pain than anyone else I’ve ever known. Just telling the truth felt like a huge weight off my shoulders. I haven’t been able to have a heart to heart with him since then, but he has at least acknowledged that he knows what I am talking about. It is a sticky situation because he’s still with her and they have school age kids together. She is scared that I am going to tell him everything so she tries to make sure we talk as little as possible.

    You are completely justified to be upset that people act “ashamed” about your abuse. That is ridiculous, but sadly it’s the way a lot of people act because they can’t handle the subject. It might also be due to the fact that they have unresolved issues they’d rather not deal with. I hate that feeling, because if you’re telling them you trust them and expect that they would try to understand and support you. Instead, they just get all uncomfortable and try to change the subject or something. Ugh.

    I never tell anyone about my story anymore unless they start talking about the subject of abuse in a way that shows they understand. Otherwise, I don’t waste my breath.

    I think what LilOrphan was saying about the “double life” thing can also be applicable to childhood abuse. It is so true that they create company for themselves and trap you in a web of secrecy that, especially as a child, you blame yourself for. The shame of being forced to participate in that double life many times overrides the desire to tell someone you trust that you are being abused. The abusers find a way to make you feel like it is your fault and project their own depravity onto you. I think getting rid of that projection takes a lot of effort because it gets to be ingrained in your head that you are to blame. That is something that I had to work really hard on and am still working on.

    Sometimes, especially after a dream about childhood stuff, I get washed over with feelings from the past. When I have those dreams (and they have become rarer as time goes on) I feel like it is a way for my brain to purge those old feelings out. Like if something you ate makes you sick, you have to see it a second time when it’s on the way out. lol but at least then it’s out of your system. It can’t poison you anymore.

    LilOrphan,

    I know how you feel about those crappy days where everything just gets to you all over again. A part of being strong is letting yourself break down and feel things sometimes, as much as it sucks. I think we could all use a smelly candle or two. Hope your tomorrow is better.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 8:16am

29. LilOrphan says:

    Absolutely, Ariadne, this:

    “I think what LilOrphan was saying about the “double life” thing can also be applicable to childhood abuse.”

    Yes! Think that for better or worse, we were raised to be the perfect foils for such furthered abuses, to “best” participate in the dual life of these types, because we have our own duality since childhood and somehow managed to live, and often thrive, within such dichotomous circumstance.

    Most people would walk away from the P immediately, even if love had grown, when they see the P begin to “splinter” into two faces, into Jekyll/Hyde. But we who grew up in a conspiracy of silence, a world of two lives separate: the public face of the family and the very different private face, had to learn how to both love and hate the perpetrators of our abuse.

    We had to learn to foster and maintain normalcy in a life that was anything but.

    Now, this is their weapon against us getting unhooked, and is also the way of keeping us - we relate to this environment subconsciously as “home” for us. Even while knowing “home” is a dangerous place, there is something familiar and almost comforting about it.

    But it is also our way out. It is our way out because we really do have love, empathy, hope, and have learned to keep those things in the face of almost overwhelming odds, ever since childhood.

    We have the very things they only obtain for a short period of time through mirroring us, and we have them despite childhoods that might otherwise have caused us to turn those things off. I think sometimes this makes them angry….that the P’s believe we shouldn’t have those qualities they do not have, that we have no reason to be so hopeful or filled with love.

    But they come into our lives and stay in on this fault-line that many people don’t have, this ability to carry two opposed feelings at one time.

    My feeling, anyway, is that if we can strengthen and integrate our negative childhood abuse memories into our current selves, if we can learn to embrace all of it better, we’re less likely targets for them.

    Not sure if any of this makes sense, as I’m just developing some ideas that have been stewing for awhile.

    Today is better. Still a little down, but it feels like mourning is real and suitable — for a brief period of time. No hiding from ourselves, because that’s unhealthy.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 8:56am

30. samartin says:

    I only wish I had the courage to let go. He has me in debt so bad I am holding on for a payoff…which may never come. He has a large law suit pending against 2 MV carriers.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 10:08am

31. Ariadne says:

    Sorry Free,
    I meant to address the part about the dreams and others’ reactions to you.By the way, I love that prayer, it is so simple and so full of truth. Hope you have a good night’s sleep.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 10:55am

32. OxDrover says:

    The book, “Predators” I am reading by Dr. Anna Salter, who is a sexual abuse specialist talks very much about the way the abuser thinks and how the public thinks.

    Up until 1930 the child-victim was BLAMED for seducing the adult male! Yes, official psychiatric circles blamed the child’s “sexually acting out!” Even up to the 1970s this attitude was what prevailed in many circles. It takes GENERATIONS for the attitudes of the general public to change about any given stigma. (especially something sexual)

    Even though “sexual” mores have changed in our society, there are still people who have these outdated “ideas” stuck in their minds. Logically, they know that the child is not to blame, yet, they still have the emotions attached that even they dont’ understand where they came from.

    If you asked them “is the child to blame?” They would of course say “NO!” yet, underneath it all is this feeling of shame for the family involved, and even for the child.

    Though it wasn’t a case of sexual abuse, but with my son in prison I felt shame at telling people where he was. Yesterday someone asked my son D where he got the pair of custom, elephant skin boots that he wears and my usual (in the past) response would have been “we know a boot maker in Texas” but I actually said, “I have a son in prison who learned to make boots and he made them for D.” It really wasn’t any of the person’s business, but I wanted to see how I would feel about saying it, and I DID NOT FEEL GUILTY. I am finally able to not feel a stigma that has nothing to do with ME. I do not feel shame for someone else’s acts. No one is going to project it on to me either.

    Of course I am not going to go around, meeting people shaking their hand and saying’ Hi, my name is Oxy, and Oh, by the way, I have a son in prison.” But neither am I going to HIDE THE TRUTH any more. I’m tired of compartmentalizing my own life to “who knows about P son and who doesn’t” or “who do I have to hide the truth from and who don’t I?”

    Childhood dysfunction, I think ANY kind of denying of reality, whether it is sexual abuse by a family member, or any covering up of reality that the child knows and is told “it doesn’t exist.” Or that “if it does exist, it is your fault” is abuse that follows us to adulthood and helps make us vulnerable to the Ps—and their denial of reality in the face of evidence to the contrary.

    I will no longer deny reality—I don’t think we can heal as long as we try to pretend that something doesn’t exist.

    The analogy that I made to conceptualize with this is a big pile of cat crap in the middle of the living room floor (please excuse the analogy being scatological) and when the stink starts to get bad, we lay a piece of carpet over it, but though we can no longer SEE it, it still stinks. The cat comes in and does it again, and more carpet pieces over it until the pile reaches nearly to the ceiling. If someone else says, “Why don’t you clean up the cat crap?” We say “What cat crap?” and they say, “Oh, yea, your cat keeps crapping in the middle of your floor and you keep covering it up” and we say WHAT CAT?

    In order to heal we have to throw the cat out the darned door, and then clean up the mess it has made, but we can’t do that until we recognize that WE HAVE A CAT. As long as we try to fix the problem by denying the presence of the cat, it’s continued bad behavior, and covering up the mess, we can never get our house clean. It is only recognizing that we have a cat, that it is not behaving properly, decide we don’t want a cat that isn’t litter trained, throw it out, and gag and clean up the mess. The longer we have been in denial, the bigger the mess is likely to be.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 11:03am

33. hummingbird1418 says:

    All of your insights are enlightening. I think that I am learning about myself and why I let this S. into my life. I can’t believe now how much control he had over my daily activities.

    I spoke to my supervisor today about the mess that I have made of my life only because my S. works in the same office. She was very sympathetic and said to not lend him any money and stay away from him.

    I am feeling freer as I open up this festering sore and let in some air. I feel better now that I am opening up to people who I have wronged with my hidden life.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 11:30am

34. OxDrover says:

    Hummingbird, I think the progress you are making in talking to the other people that have been impacted by your “hidden life” is so theraputic and shows that you are on the correct path to healing and recovery from all this chos in your life.

    I don’t know a single person who has not done things that impacted adversely on others. It is beiing willing to take responsibility for our own acts that are less than what we would like to think about ourselves, and to move forward.

    We cannot change the past, we can only change our own reactions to the past, we can only move FORWARD.

    If we try to “cover up” the past failures to act as we should have, we DENY and it is like the “stink” hidden under the carpet. I think that most people can recognize true contrition,, and true changes of heart and RESPECT that.

    My son C’s X-wife “verbalized” repentence, and contrition, but she CONTINUED HER BLAMING OF OTHERS, and did not accept responsibility for her behaviors. Therefore it was easy to see that she was lying through her teeth.

    Actually I think her “fake contrition” was a benefit to my son C in his own healing path in that he could SEE that her words did NOT FIT her actions. If her contrition had been REAL it I think would have made it more difficult for him, but because she was such a FAKE he is more able to see that there was NOTHING HE COULD HAVE DONE to have made it any different.

    I have no doubt that he loved her, and because no one is a perfect spouse, those that truly CARE always seem to feel that there just MIGHT HAVE been something they could have done different to have had a different outcome.

    Your willingness to own up and accept responsibility for your behavior in all this, bodes well for your own healing, and mending bridges that you may have dynamited by past behavior. I applaud you loudly for your courage to make these amends. I truly KNOW how difficult it is to accept less than perfection in our own behavior, that has been the biggest hurdle for me. ((((hugs))))

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 11:42am

35. hummingbird1418 says:

    Thanks, Oxdrover, I feel more empowered now that I am leaving the secrets behind.

    It will take time to heal the scars left from this relationship (if you can call it that). I truly thought that this S. was the one that I would spend the rest of my life with.

    I will eventually forgive myself for being so stupid and not seeing him for what he was. I know that I have to accept my human frailties and move on with my life. I have three adult children whom I love. That is where the focus of my attention will go.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 12:31pm

36. OxDrover says:

    Hummingbird,

    I know that I never felt truly “empowered” myself until I started to feel it recently. If I stood my ground on a boundary of just about any kind, I had to get a “validation” from someone else that my boundary was “reasonable.”

    Gosh, when I look back on it I wonder WTF? Why did I feel so powerless that I couldn’t even stand my ground for an OBVIOUS BULLY without feeling guilty about it, or unsure of it.

    Why was I so unsure of myself, my own “right” and so afraid to step on someone else’s “feelings” because THEY STOMPED ON MY RIGHTS.????

    I have never had a great deal of trouble sincerely apologizing but you know, I have “apologized” so many times for what SOMEONE ELSE DID…and I took the responsibility and the GUILT.

    In talking to my X-BF-P’s X wife (that I had known casually for years) she said to me, “You know, I haven’t had to say “I’m sorry” in the last SIX MONTHS, it is wonderful”

    She had been doing the same thing, saying “I”m sorry” over and over to him for WHAT HE DID! SHEESH! Why do we do that? Own someone else’s guilt, PLUS OUR OWN?

    In addition, when I would apologize I was sincere in my apology, desperately so, but when others would make a Phony apology, Like Eliot Spritzer (LOL) I would “accept” it, even though I KNEW IT WAS BS, A LIE. I felt uncomfortable doing it, but I thiought I was BOUND TO DO SO, no matter HOW phony it was.

    Sometimes when you do make a very SINCERE apology, and an appropriate accepting of responsibility, others will not accept your apology. Not just not give you “another chance” to repair the relationship, but maintain their anger and wrath at you. If they choose to NOT accept my apology, it used to devestate me, and I would literally plead with them to BELIEVE me that I was indeed sincere.

    During all the chaos last spring and summer, I got really angry with myt mother because she would NOT even look at the evidence against the Trojan Horse P that I had paid the private investigator to complie for me (thinking taht she would believe that) and I became frustrated, and called her a “senile old bat” and stomped out of her house. Before the door closed behind me and I felt badly for saying this and turned around and went back inside the door and SINCERELY apologized for saying that, accepted responsibility for it, etc. She REFUSED To accept my apology because it didn’t “sound sincere enough to her” Later, I re-apologized and again she refused to accept my apology (I think I must have hit a nerve LOL) and I BEGGED her with tears in my eyes to accept my apology, and she still refused.

    NOW, however, if I apologize to someone in all sincereity and they don’t accept it, or even don’t acknowledge it, I simply say, “I value our relationship, and My apology is sincere, but if you choose not to accept it, I’ve done all I can.” Then I walk away and don’t look back.

    All I can do is to sincerely apologize, make ammends if I can, and it is up to the other person how the relationship goes from there. I used to think that I needed to demean myself by grovelling like a dog before the aggressor dog to try to convince them I was sincere, but now, I realize that is not necessary.

    All that said, I no longer accept “socially fake apologies” as valid either.

    The friend who helped me wonderfully last summer when I was “crazy” and fleeing my home, has some anger issues. He will spontaneously almost “explode” in an outburst of anger. He was married to a couple of personality dysfunctional people, one who died and the other who was most likely a P. He has NOT resolved these anger issues and gets angry over things that really are none of his business (not things done to him by you) but angryly criticizes you for how you handled a situation. The last time he “went off” on me about how stupid I was about something I had done (which really wasn’t stupid at all) I listened for a few minutes and then turned and walked away from him. He has never apologized for his outburst which was TOTALLY inappropriate and quite ill-informed actually. And, I have never called him since. He has never called me. I am sorry that our relationship ended this way, but at the same time, the ball is in HIS court, not mine. I have a perfect RIGHT to not allow anyone to speak to me in that manner. If he does not handle his OWN problems well, I can’t let them bleed over into my life.

    He’s not a bad man, in fact, he is quite a good man, but he is very opinionated and judgmental and projects his own problems. I can’t “fix” him, HE MUST FIX HIMSELF, and until he WANTS to fix himself, until HE SEES the problem is HIS, not mine, we won’t see each other. That may be very well why he has so FEW FRIENDS…because he drives them away. Yet, I will always be very grateful and have a special place in my heart for all that he did for me last summer.

    Gratitude for what he has done for me does not mean I must allow him to speak to me in a disrespectful manner.

    Our Ps play on the universal “law of reciprosity” among ALL people of ALL cultures. You do me a good turn, I owe you one. It does NOT mean, you do me a good turn and that gives you a right to abuse me. P’s don’t believe in the “Law of Reciprosity” but they KNOW YOU DO, and they use this AGAINST US. Even if a person has done you 1000 “good turns” and you have not had the opportunity to return the favors, that does NOT, NEVER WILL, give them the right to ABUSE you. Yet, we feel guilty if we stand up for ourselves when the Ps start the abuse because we look at what “good things” they have done prior to the abuse.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 2:06pm

37. hummingbird1418 says:

    Oxdrover,

    You have a lot of insight. I am an apoligizer also. I feel horrible if I hurt another person’s feelings, but in the case of a S. they don’t have normal feelings.

    Recently said he needed for money to pay for a PET scan of his kidneys. He said that our BC/BS wouldn’t pay for it. I feel bad (if this is true) but I am not going to give him any more money.

    You shouldn’t feel bad if people don’t accept a sincere apology. They are the ones who are missing out.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 2:28pm

38. OxDrover says:

    One of the things that we (people pleasers) must get through our heads, is that EVEN IF he needs the money to pay for a PET scan of his kidnesys (which I don’t believe for one minute) IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE IT.

    There are children in the US today who go to bed HUNGRY. That is a fact, there are children in this world and the US that are beaten and unhappy, and abused, there are people with NO INSURANCE–you dont know these people so you don’t feel responsible to SAVE each and every one of them (even if you could) IT IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

    JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW HIM, it is NOT your responsibility to provide money for his medical care (if he needed it) WHY SHOULD YOU “FEEL GUILTY”?

    I am my mother’s only child. My sons are her only grandchildren. Before all this chaos, I had had her COMPLETE power of attorney to manage her finances and medical care if she needed it. In march of last year, without telling me, she REVOKED MY POWER OF ATTORNEY and gave it to my DIL. She revoked my right to know any of her medical information.

    Now that the family has “blown apart” a first cousin of mine has her POA, which is only “for emergencies” but you know, I felt guilty because I COULD NOT TAKE CARE OF HER, OVERSEE HER MEDICAL CARE, ETC. But one day it dawned on me. I did not have the AUTHORITY, to do so if I wanted to (I didn’t want to but I felt guilty because I didn’t want to) DUH.

    If I have NO authority, I have NO responsibility. Therefore, I have NO REASON TO FEEL GUILTY because I don’t do it.

    What makes you feel (not think, FEEL) RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS MEDICAL CARE–even if he needs it? Our FEELINGS are that, feelings, and they come and go, but we can influence these feelings.

    If I hear a noise and it frightens me (feeling) then I go to the door and look out—if I see a bear, I know I have a REASON to be frightened, but if there is nothing there, I am reassured and my FEELING of fear goes away. We can also work on these things with other emotions, like FEELING “responsible” when we are not.

    I felt responsible for my mother’s health care and welfare, because I thought I was responsible. Once I realized I was NOT responsible, didn’t have the AUTHORITY to do it. I NO LONGER FELT RESPONSIBLE OR GUILTY. My (logical) thinking changed my FEELINGS.

    Working on changing our feelings about things, whether it is the frustrated or angry feeling we have when we are in traffic and blocked behind a very slow driver, or whatever the feelings that we are having, we can use our conscious mind to alter these feelings. It takes practice to do so but we can. I’m not where I want to be with DOING it, but I am working on this and it is becoming easier as I go along. Start with “Little” feelings like when you find yourself frustrated in a long line or angry at some little thing you can’t control…it does work. And gosh how much stress it relives! LOL (((hugs))))

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 3:32pm

39. diamondgirl says:

    Thank you Free & LilOrphan for your honesty,

    I was feeling so badly today also and sometimes it helps me to come here and read the comments of others to know that what I’m feeling is really real. I hate admitting that I am still effected by my P. My friends give bad advice sometimes so I keep my feelings to myself for the most part. No one I know really understands the trauma I suffered and still struggle with today. (4 year ordeal with P and have been free for 11 months) I am no longer in that relationship but from time to time I am transported back just like it was yesterday. I hate that I still have feelings of hurt for all the lies told and dreams unfulfilled. I know that it is unreasonable to think that my P is the changed person she pretends to be now that we are apart. I realize that its just another lie. I know that she is giving someone else all the lies, heartache and deceit that she gave to me so well.

    Nevertheless, I am upset today because I still want what was promised to me in the midst of all the lies. All that I gave in love I want to recoup NOW. I struggle to keep my head up when my heart hurts. I’m tired of trying so hard to forget the misery. When will it end?

    I won’t deny that time as been my friend. I have done what I can to see myself through all of the chaos. I like what I see in myself and better yet, I’m trying each day to live fearlessly and take care of myself. (this is new for me) It’s working for the most part.

    Still, there are days like this, where nothing works except shedding a few tears. Remembering that the lies I allowed to inundate my life can no longer effect me so profoundly as they once did when I didn’t understand who I was dealing with. I was no match for my P, for I was only armed with my love and trust which was ammunition for the P so I was defenseless. But that was then and this is now. And I do know better but still it hurts.

    The days when I feel as I do today, brings me back to that hopeless feeling that I will never feel love as it is intended.

    Glad to know I am not alone and that it really does get better.

    Thanks.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 5:12pm

40. Warrior says:

    I am new here. My relationship, if I can call it that, lasted for almost four years. M.L. Gallagher’s words are perfect and describe to a “t” what it is like being caught in this love net.

    I haven’t seen all comments on all subjects, but are there any others out there who were married and involved with a married socio? That was my situation and it makes it harder to make people understand how hard it has been when all they can see/hear is that I was also a cheater. I’ve accepted my responsibility for my actions. That has been hard for me to own up to; I know the affair was a wake-up call to other issues I had not been dealing with all my life.

    I believed I was very much in love with this man, whom I call The Thief, and even though it’s been almost 10 months since my husband ran him out of town (yep, true story); I still miss the “idea” of him. Gallagher’s (and all of your) writings helps me keep on the right track of healing.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 7:19pm

41. Warrior says:

    Thank you, everyone, for opening your hearts and souls to those of us who are new and are still in the beginning stages of healing.

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 7:41pm

42. eyeswideshut says:

    Oxdrover, ML, Lil Orphan,all, what a thread! I have been posting musings of mine together with excerpts from this blog onto a “journal” because you all are teaching me so much, more than the therapist, more than what I read in books, and giving me so much perspective that I could not find elsewhere. The last post (Oxdrover) is going on the fridge until I GET IT, LIVE IT, BREATH IT.

    Why do we stay? Because we invest qualities in them that we desire, which they mirror, and because we feel RESPONSIBLE. At least for me I felt responsible for honoring my committment, for honoring those vows, for finally “getting it right” for proving my “bad luck” in relationships just that, bad luck. I did not want to be WRONG. So I would make it work. No matter what.

    There were other real issues, like raising children together and not wanting them to go through a broken home, of evaluating, and saying, is it really that bad? Was that betrayal really a deal breaker?

    My P/S/N/ is the master of the long deal, and even in the abuse, it took many, many years to see the pattern, and even then, when we went to counselling, together, and I by myself, I never really got any support in SEEING the pattern. Or perhaps I was too locked into my vision and never stuck around long enough to have it’s falseness revealed.

    But at some point I stuck up for myself. For my parents and what they taught me that was good and affirming. For my children who should have a mother with a spine and some dignity, for my daughter who is extricating herself from an abusive (P?S?N?) partner, at great pain and suffering. For the person I have allowed myself to be and become since he is gone, for that little girl on the swing so long ago. For my sister, who broke free, suffered much, and has a balanced, sane, enencumbered rewarding life on her own, by herself, modest, but rich in freedom and peace of mind.

    I know I stayed emotionally invested beacause I invested qualities in him that he did not possess. And during the times I saw him as shallow and self centered and distant and lacking empathy and self absorbed and BORING, I told myself it would be IMMORAL to leave beacause deep down he really loved me and deep down he was a DECENT man. And you don’t throw a good man away.

    Excuses made, because love is so hard to come by. But like most things in life, there really are no short cuts. And that is what I am working on, where my responsibility lies. I took shortcuts, I fluffed over the warnings, I took the bait.

    On the wall of a room that I work in I have scrawled, in a moment of anger “Never take candy from a stranger” - because that is what I feel I did, I took his candy, but he was a stranger.
    For 27 years.

    For me, belive it or not, I am grateful, that his final betrayal was so egregious that I can now move on, guilt free, no second thoughts about the vows, taking “care” of him, worrying about his health or what he eats.

    I stayed because I believed I could be loved, and believed, warts and all, he did. And being an honorable person, I felt it would be wrong to desert him in his ongoing moment of need when after all he LOVED ME SO MUCH, I needed to be there for him.

    What others have posted on this thread is so true, A) be there for yourself B) Trust will return, when you trust yourself.

    Peace & love

    Tuesday, 15 April 2008 @ 10:54pm

43. hummingbird1418 says:

    OxDrover:
    You are right. I don’t know why I should feel guilty for not helping him pay for a medical procedure. At this point I am not even sure what is true or not. He has family in Philadelphia and a son here in Baltimore. They should be the ones providing aid.

    My supervisor said to me yesterday after I told her what has been going on that I should not give him a dime. She said that I need to look after my own long-term needs and those of my children. He will not be there for me in the long run and she is right.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 6:02am

44. hummingbird1418 says:

    Free,
    I know what you mean. People in my office think that the S. is a nice guy. He doesn’t involve himself in office chat. He doesn’t talk about others in the office. He is witty and sociable. Fortunately, our supervisor has seen another side of him and understands what I am going through.

    Presently, he isn’t talking at all to me in the office or outside the office. I am sure that he is upset that I didn’t give him any money for his PET scan (if he really had one).

    Thanks for all the words of wisdom from OxDrover, LilOrphan, Ariadne,etc.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 7:30am

45. Ariadne says:

    Free,

    That is a great idea to make a list of the things you can and cannot change. I think I might do that myself. It can help you take charge of the parts of your life that are your responsibility and leave the rest be. But even if we accept something as unchangeable doesn’t mean we need to stick around and let it mess up our lives. Accepting Ss are Ss is the first step in staying miles away! We know we can’t change their disorderedness so the logical conclusion is to head for the hills. I think that has a lot to do with setting good boundaries.

    You know I used to think the same thing, those people who are “healthier” for whatever reason and know not to get involved with a P, S or N; what do they think when they meet one? I had a friend clear that up one day when we were talking and the office S was coming. She told me not to leave because she said she gets a bad feeling about the S. That’s it. She gets a bad feeling about her so she stays away. She doesn’t need to know that she’s a sociopath to know she’s bad news. While knowing she is a sociopath is probably better for predicting what she’s going to do next, my friend doesn’t feel the need to stick around and find out. It’s so simple it kills me. The S also knows that she won’t get anywhere with my friend so she doesn’t bother to talk to her. If everyone would listen to their intuition like that, sociopaths wouldn’t have any victims left to manipulate.

    Hummingbird,
    Yay! Good for you for not giving in to his pity party. I’m sure his kidneys are fine, his wallet is probably what’s in bad shape. It’s good he’s not talking to you. For them every interaction is an opportunity for manipulation.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 8:03am

46. OxDrover says:

    In “romantic” relationships, I would say that people who were less dysfunctional (I hate to say “healthier” LOL) might be less inclined to get involved with a P romanticly, but my friend who was professionally involved with one who suddenly became her boss, after being not rejected, but repulsed, sexually by her, fired her before the ink got dry on his new contract. That has been 8 years ago and she still is ANGRY and feels “raped” professionally. He made sure he did it in the most public way, and to get the maximum amount of humiliation out of it.

    But of course the predator does not pick out the healthiest animal in the herd to attack, but looks for the one with just a slight limp, or some other thing that will make them less likely to successfully escape or fight back. They can almost instinctively pick the one wildebeast out of a herd of 1000 that has something wrong with it, or is young, elderly, and they go for that ONE animal out of the herd, ignoring all the others.

    Interestingly enough too, when the rest of the wildebeasts (or any other herd prey animals usually) the rest of the herd will stop and go back to grazing while their companion is being torn apart in front of their very eyes. I wonder if that is a sort of “denial” on the part of the rest of the herd? I wonder if that is somewhat like our frineds not really “seeing” what the Ps have done to us. Or if it is just a thing about “if he is attacking you, he is leaving ME alone and I am not in any danger this minute.”

    HUMMINGBIRD, I suggest you start treating him like a potted plant. Just pretend he doesn’t exist. Unless you are REQUIRED to even acknowledge his presence in a room, don’t treat him any different than you would a potted plant on the table—no eye contact and NO CASUAL CONVERSATION OF ANY KIND, NO LISTENING TO HIS MEDICAL PROBLEMS/LIES, OR ANYTHING ELSE.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 8:33am

47. peggywhoever says:

    OxDrover:

    I have always talked about the “reciprocity principle” which is directly equated to your “law of reciprocity”. I can totally relate to this…my S was VERY generous, I mean excessively so (of course he was embezzling money) and fully expected me to reciprocate by investing with him. After 3 years, when I didn’t, the game was up, and he moved on to a woman who’s family has a lot of money.

    It seems like you have insights on everything. I think of you as the “P Expert”, hope you don’t mind that distinction!

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 9:31am

48. hummingbird1418 says:

    OxDrover,
    I will have to limit our conversation to work only. Since we do have to interact in the office, it would be difficult to not talk forever. The potted plant idea is one I will work on.

    Ariadne,
    I have never been involved before with someone who is so manipulative. A normal person would be unable to use his or her family’s supposed problems to solicit money from another person. Yuck!

    From everything I have read, there is no cure for S or P. They don’t respond to medication or therapy favorably. It is a shame that these human beings could be such a lousy reflection of God’s creation. I guess no amout of prayer will ever change their basic makeup. They will continue to plunder and pillage their way through without any remorse for what they have done to others.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 9:38am

49. diamondgirl says:

    Jules,

    Thank you so much for sharing. Yesterday wasn’t a good day. The way I felt mirrored your words and experiences exactly. I feel so sad sometimes because all the love that I shared so freely was for nothing. I want to feel in equal measure all that I gave wholeheartedly. I am haunted at times by all the lies that were told and I somehow believed. I had to take a hard look at why I allowed it and it’s been a rough journey. Today I feel that each day I have the opportunity to be good to myself.

    The good part about overcoming all of that drama is that I am no longer so hungry for love when it doesn’t feel right. I had to really look at my contribution to the entire relationship and all that I choose to overlook. I stayed because I wanted to have everything the liar said disguised as promises for better days.

    I have begun to transform my life one day at a time. I am worthy of love even if it means I am to spend years just learning how to love myself. My journey has been life changing. I am grateful to wake up without feeling the burden of having the P in my life. However, there are days were I just want the affection that I was showered with which seemed real at the time. Lately, I have had some rough days but overall I am feeling better. I must constantly remind myself that it was all a facade. Some days I can do it well but other days I must allow the tears to flow. It’s been a year since I left the P. It still hurts to know that this incomplete person is off doing just what she did to me and what she does best. With no remorse or conscious for all the pain she causes.

    LilOrphan,
    Thanks for pointing out that there are some triggers that bring us back to the horrible places the P’s once occupied in our hearts and minds. I never really thought about such triggers. But in thinking, when I am feeling down and out, it was always a trigger of some sort that got me going. I will now try to be on the “look out” for what my triggers are as I move through my days. Thanks.

    Thank goodness for this site, I can come here and express myself with everyone who understands fully the devastation after dealing with P’s.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 9:42am

50. diamondgirl says:

    LilOrphan,

    Yes I feel that I am still in mourning. I still want what was promised to me by the S. I gave freely of my love and it was never, ever lovingly reciprocated at all. I did all that I could until I lost myself completely. It has been a journey realizing what happened and where I went wrong. What I did discover was something very wonderful, that I am resilient, strong, beautiful and able to give and receive love. Just needed to heal some of my own wounds and realize that some of my unrealistic thoughts about love were simply fantasy. I am better today but I too have some bad days where I am transformed back to that place and time when I was being abused.

    I stayed at first because I did not understand what i was dealing with. I stayed later because I felt that no one else would do. (couldn’t see that the manipulation and lies disguised as love was all I was getting fromt the S)
    I left eventually because I gave so much that I had nothing else to give and I finally wanted more for myself. All of that took 4 years. I have been struggling for 1 year and the struggle is worth it everyday. I only have to worry about me. My focus, my hopes, and dreams are all about me and what I want which is honest and true. I have allowed myself time to heal and see what really matters in my life without a bunch of lies and deceit. Loving me has been the best thing for me.

    The days where I feel down because of thoughts of what the S did or what i allowed are the worst. I hate that my feelings are still hurt over the whole ordeal. I just would like to discard it just as she once discarded me.

    Today, I found out that there are things that trigger me emotionally and take me out of my normal rational being. I never really understood that until I read some of the blogs here. I appreciate all that is shared in this site.

    Thanks

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 10:04am

51. diamondgirl says:

    LilOrphan,
    LilOrphan,

    Yes I feel that I am still in mourning. I still want what was promised to me by the S. I gave freely of my love and it was never, ever lovingly reciprocated at all. I did all that I could until I lost myself completely. It has been a journey realizing what happened and where I went wrong. What I did discover was something very wonderful, that I am resilient, strong, beautiful and able to give and receive love. Just needed to heal some of my own wounds and realize that some of my unrealistic thoughts about love were simply fantasy. I am better today but I too have some bad days where I am transformed back to that place and time when I was being abused.

    I stayed at first because I did not understand what i was dealing with. I stayed later because I felt that no one else would do. (couldn’t see that the manipulation and lies disguised as love was all I was getting fromt the S)
    I left eventually because I gave so much that I had nothing else to give and I finally wanted more for myself. All of that took 4 years. I have been struggling for 1 year and the struggle is worth it everyday. I only have to worry about me. My focus, my hopes, and dreams are all about me and what I want which is honest and true. I have allowed myself time to heal and see what really matters in my life without a bunch of lies and deceit. Loving me has been the best thing for me.

    The days where I feel down because of thoughts of what the S did or what i allowed are the worst. I hate that my feelings are still hurt over the whole ordeal. I just would like to discard it just as she once discarded me.

    Today, I found out that there are things that trigger me emotionally and take me out of my normal rational being. I never really understood that until I read some of the blogs here. I appreciate all that is shared in this site.

    Thanks

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 10:08am

52. Brokenup says:

    Lil orphan..

    You know, I am STIll longing and thinking of the good times we had.. and my.. they WERE good times, but i HAVE to think of the shit and the lies and the devious, promiscious behaviour to get me through .

    I am SORT of there.. but moments catch me when i long for his smell and his touch…. but the cold light of what he REALLy did reminds me to be strong..

    It was NOT me….or us.. it was THEM.. but we have to be strong and believe in ourselves to find the final peace. THAT is when WE come int play.. we as US.. as we are.. kind, caring, real, loving honesp people… and remember THAT as we push them out of our lives.. afrd as it may be sometimes.

    Take care

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 10:42am

53. almost_free says:

    OxDrover,
    I love your sense of humor - I laughed out loud at your comment: “start treating him like a potted plant”. I will start doing that also.

    My husband is now also giving me the pity play. How he is “sad” about our upcoming divorce day. How he is really going to get “screwed” by taxes through all this. How he appreciates how “cooperative” I have been through our settlement negotiations.

    I had to speak with him about the settlement, but it is so different now from all I’ve learned about his character disorder. I no longer get sucked in by his craziness, although I can feel myself wanting to be pulled there. I am all business, no emotion at all, yet I am perfectly civil.

    I had to really stop myself from being emotional, and made no acknowedgement whatsoever of his pity play. He didn’t know what to do with that. It really messes them up when we no longer get involved in their drama.

    It is not easy, though. I cry after I talk with him. I cry for the illusion of who he was to me for so many years. I see the real person now. But, I also cry because as he’s talking I feel as though I’m losing myself again, but at least now I can stop myself.

    He said several times on the phone, “to be honest with you”, “to tell you the truth”, as though he’s almost convincing himself that he is honest, and has to convince me as well.

    It no longer matters to me whether he’s telling the truth or not. There is no cure they say, but I do still have that tiny bit of hope that one day he will seek help for himself.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 12:41pm

54. OxDrover says:

    Peggy, I don’t think of myself as an “expert” in the sense you mean it, actually, an “expert” is a DRIP UNDER PRESSURE! Or the other definition is anyone who is more than 50 miles from home. I wonder how that works on the internet?! LOL Thanks, though. I do have OPINIONS, that’s for sure and I definitely have had experiences with the Ps, but you know, that is not something that I think makes me an expert on Ps in general, just MY PARTICULAR Ps…and I read a lot, think alot, maybe it should be called obscess about them, because I think only by “knowing your enemy” can you effectively defend yourself.

    I realize I can’t truly know how they feel, but I am learning the PATTERNS in their thinking—just like you can observe the patterns in the “thinking” of a dog—you can’t know how they “feel” but you can see the results of how their thinking influences their behavior.

    Knowing what my Ps might be up to and being able to anticipate where the next attack might come from, or what they might be likely pull next I think is important in ones that you can’t just “get rid of”—or ones that stalk you or won’t let go. The ones that dump you and run are the “easy” ones—but the vengeful ones are I think the most dangerous ones. The D & D ones that run away though they may leave you heart broken, at least they don’t stay around to torment you in the flesh.

    Free, you are right on about accepting the things we cannot change. I also believe that we should COUNT OUR BLESSINGS and not focus so much on what fantasy we have lost. I am SO blessed and I know that but in the pain of the “losses” with the Ps we tend to let that over shadow the reality of the fact that WE ARE BLESSED—-with so much. Even just the country we live in where we have a way to get a divorce from a P. How about if we lived in many of the other countries where we were essentially “cattle” and “owned” by our husbands or fathers? Where we can get a job and DO have human rights as women? We are allowed by society to exercise our power and our strength as humans.

    Almost_free, I am glad that you are doing so well! Keep up the faith!

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 1:02pm

55. metachosis says:

    Very poignant.

    I stayed in a relationship with a sociopath for almost a year. I had a very hard time getting out. He would claim to be suicidal every time i set boundaries. I still have a hard time understanding why he did what he did and still doesn’t get it. He is a bright guy and can be very charming. I hope to see more research on this subject.

    Thanks for sharing.

    Wednesday, 16 April 2008 @ 9:24pm

56. dorkgirl says:

    Hummingbird,

    You are so brave! I was semi-brave and told my husband about the emotional part of the relationship with the S, leaving the physical part out (and he didn’t ask). Obviously there are issues between my husband and myself, but as I said before we’ve been together 22 years and I had never even been tempted to cheat before the S appeared in my life.

    I’m struggling with deciding to stay in my marriage, as the one thing this mess made clear to me is that there is much missing in my life. I know you are working through the leftover feelings from your S encounter, and trying to resolve the guilt from leaving your marriage, but I’m wondering if you regret the divorce? Or do you feel that it is something that in the long run will be better for you and your happiness? I have decided that if I ever do become single again I am not allowed to date anyone I meet, and I have made my friends promise they would only let me go out with someone they have known and trusted for a very long time! I am generally very uncomfortable around men, I actually talk to one and let one in…and look what it was! Flashing target on my forehead, obviously.

    Thursday, 17 April 2008 @ 1:48am

57. Bé says:

    rblue, you said: I get a text from the other woman again about him calling her earlier that day telling her things that i said about her (which i did not) and also telling her that i am jealous bc they will always be closer then him and i…
    The psy I was married to did the same so I got the three of us together and she told him to his face what he said. But she must have seen through him. But I agree with ML, just leave!
    Thank you so much for your letter ML. I’m thinking of printing this to give to my sons who never believed that I could be the innocent victim. This blog is invaluable and your letter touched me very deeply. I don’t know why I only reveived my mail only now. I do hope you still get what I wrote.

    Thursday, 17 April 2008 @ 6:09am

58. LilOrphan says:

    Well, like it or not, you sure do have a wealth of knowledge that helps enlighten others, OxD. Not to mention some great stories to share.

    You’re right about the P’s who go and stay gone, for example. Those that plot against you and return…come back with far more mayhem in store. I’ve learned.

    Besides, you came up with what we can now call the “Ficus Theory.” Treat ‘em all like potted plants. Only in this scenario, we’ll be the ones doing the growing and blooming because of it.

    Thursday, 17 April 2008 @ 6:51am

59. OxDrover says:

    “Ficus Theory” ROTFL—now who has the SENSE OF HUMOR? LOL

    A friend of mine one time when I was in college was dating this guy that I despised, AND on top of everything he was her land lord. He knew I didn’t like him anyway, and once when he was gone out of town, she was feeding his dogs and I went with her, and as we let ourselves into the house through the garage, I saw right before my eyes in the garage that he had taken PARTS OF 4 hard-rock maple chairs that belonged to me that she and I had disassimbled and were redoing in her garage. FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE THAN TO HAVE THE 4 CHAIRS RUINED BY MISSING PIECES!

    I got my chair pieces and took them back, and from then on I treated him like a FICUS. I was at her house a lot and so was he and while he was there I just pretended he was INVISIBLE. IT DROVE HIM CRAZY. I had read the book Body Language not too many months before so I used that as my idea. So I just acted like I couldn’t see him (eye contact, body language etc) talked about him as if he wasn’t there, if he spoke to me I acted like I didn’t hear anything, if I was talking I kept on talking, etc.

    It actually got to be a fun “game” and it drove him INSANE. Looking back this guy probably was a P, at least he was a control FREAK, a sneak thief, etc. In retrospect too, it is sort of funny because my friend was NOT deeply in love with this guy, if she had been, it wouldn’t have been so funny.

    I did learn though (wish I had uesd the lesson I had learned but not use) that what we now call NO CONTACT–i.e. NO REACTION to their posturing, no reaction to their tirades, etc. is ACID ON THEIR SKIN. They hate not being able to get a reaction of some kind. I think maybe it is because they are left POWERLESS and they can’t stand that. No Contact is Kryptonite to their SUPER POWERS. It makes them WEAK.

    I guess for fun we could make a list of ways to treat them and the results.

    FICUS TREATMENT: Treat them like they are invisible if you must be around them, or the same way you would treat a potted plant on the table.

    KRYPTONITE TREATMENT: No contact or reaction of any kind.

    LOL I may be twisted I guess but I just have to find SOME wazy to see some humor in such a DARK AND TERRIBLE thing. LOL

    Thursday, 17 April 2008 @ 8:35am

60. Warrior says:

    I was also in a relationship for four years; what is it about that number? Only with the help of therapists and healers was I finally able to tell him that I could no longer be treated badly and manipulated.

    He and I were both married; his line about my leaving my husband for him was that he did not want to feel guilty and that I should wait for him to leave his wife–we would do it at the same time. That never happened.

    His third wife finally threw him out of the house because (I found out later) she found that he was setting up dates online.

    Soon after, he made plans to move out of the country and even had a timeline; when I asked about it, he said that if he were going to make a change, I would be the first to know.

    My husband found out about us after I broke it off and had a conversation with the man. Scared the guy so badly to be found out and not be able to talk his way out of something that he left the country THAT NIGHT. He left all his children behind from his second wife without a thought either.

    What an absolute coward he turned out to be! And, of course, he had borrowed some money from me and has never repaid it. Found out he had been sued some time ago by another woman for the same reason. She kept a better paper trail and actually won the case.

    It will be a year in June of this year; I’ve moved out on my own, though my husband and I are still attempting to redefine our marriage and hopefully come out on a good side of things. He’s been very understanding of the abuse I allowed to happen to me. Unusual, but good therapists are a real blessing and it has helped us both to see many positive things that have come out of this complete and utter devastation. Rising up again!

    Thank you to everyone who can so honestly and eloquently share their pain in this safe place.

    Thursday, 17 April 2008 @ 7:46pm

61. Warrior says:

    Someone on this or another thread mentioned Dr. Estes’ “Women Who Run with the Wolves” and the story of “Bluebeard.” After having the book for a number of years, I just read it last week and was in tears.

    Then, just a few days ago I picked up a book of poetry by Sylvia Plath. She writes:

    “I am sending back the key
    that let me into bluebeard’s study;
    because he would make love to me
    I am sending back the key;
    in his eye’s darkroom I can see
    my X-rayed heart, dissected body;
    I am sending back the key
    that let me in to bluebeard’s study.”

    Thursday, 17 April 2008 @ 8:13pm

62. alohatraveler says:

    Warrior,

    I have seen a few stories here and in another forum where women had an affair with a Sociopath. That does make it difficult sometimes to find sympathy or empathy but I imagine this is the right place for you… because I CAN imagine a Sociopath preying upon an unhappily married woman and/or a happily married women who is hitting a rough patch or whatever. Sociopath’s can be so exciting at first so even if everything was okay in your marriage, and then you crossed paths with a Sociopath, they can creat such an over the top feeling in their victims that you could start to feel like maybe there is something MORE than what you have/had.

    If we are married, I don’t think we can innocently claim to be a victim 100% but I do get how any vulnerability could be just the right crack in the door for a Sociopath to slip right through.

    I hope that makes sense. BTW, the other forum I saw stories like yours was Don’tdatehimgirl.com but the bloggers were totally bashing women that had affairs with abusive men so don’t bother with that blog. They seemed unimformed as to what ppl were really dealing with.

    Well, I am delirious so I hope what I wrote makes sense. what I was trying to say is WELCOME. I hope you find healing here as so many of us have.

    :o)

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 2:08am

63. LilOrphan says:

    Okay, I have a few more to add for you OxD:

    DRY IDEA Treatment — Opposite reaction than what they’re expecting. If they’re mean, laugh. If they make a joke, give them a dour look. Named after the “Never let ‘em see ya sweat” product.

    CRAZY LIKE A FOX reaction — When they say something nutty or bizarre, TOP IT. Say something about the end of the world being nigh and how you’re looking for a job walking around with a sandwich board that proclaims this fact. Turn away from the P and begin a conversation to empty air with your dead relative — ANY dead relative.

    KLEENEX EXPRESS response: No matter what they say, good or bad, start weeping. Gnash teeth. Throw arms in air. Remember, a good little P hates emotion of any kind — so get going, there Julia Roberts, and strut your dramatic stuff!

    Hee. This is kind of fun. Can we come up with more?

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 8:36am

64. jules says:

    diamond girl; thanks for for saying that my sharing helps you. i know mine is out there doing the same thing right now to some one else and getting all that he wants. maybe things trigger me too. i have some real bad days sometimes, and i think how much i loved him and htought he did too. he has basically left me for dead i think he never makes contact now at the moment he has a new victim. i am glad he doesnt contact me, but it does make me sad he just acts like i do not exist. what trigers your emotions when you have a bad day if i can ask you it may help me. thanks ………

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 10:19am

65. OxDrover says:

    Orphan, Yea, I lilke the “talking to your dead relatives” bit! LOL

    Warrior, yes, welcome. I think we ALL to one degree or another fell to the “snake-oil salesmen” ploy—they held out a picture of a dream that we all had, and though it was fake, we still wanted that picture that we thought was real. Whatever it was that we already had, a marriage, a life, friends, family, we became so engrossed in the dream, the picture, the hologram, that we neglected what we did have to focus on the fake.

    I think very few of us victiims are 100% free of collusion with our victimizers. Most of us saw the “red flags” long before we either broke free or were dumped, and ignored them.

    We’ve all had a “hard lesson” in the University of Hard KNocks, but it is one from which we CAN HEAL AND GROW as people. ((((BIG Hugs))))))

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 11:44am

66. Warrior says:

    Thanks for the warm welcome. The feeling that keeps cropping up with me is that I still love this man for whom I THOUGHT he was; those feelings are very real and continue to this day. I can’t say what I would like to do to whom he really is . . . .

    I was warned by so many people; it was a superb case of denial on my part . . . and I believed his excuses/reasons for people not liking him.

    Even though I’ve been reading a lot and learning a lot about socios it is still hard to believe there are “humans” who do these kinds of things to other people just because.

    Another twist in my story is that my daughter and his son started dating a little over a year into our own relationship. When I said that we needed to discuss what we were going to do, he said, “Don’t worry, everything will be all right.” He said that a lot.

    My daughter and his son were married last fall, a few months after finding out about the affair and the father running away to another country. The father even threatened to bring the new woman to the ceremony; he was trying to get a rise out of someone (me). That didn’t happen, and I did my best not to look at him. He was so cowardly that he didn’t even stay for the reception. He looked terrible and much older.

    Since that time, I have found out so much more about him from a lot of people in town (those who had figured him out before). I’m surprised he wasn’t run out of the area before. Sheer luck for him.

    He slinks back into town occasionally to see his family and probably hooks up with one of the other women he was sleeping with during our time together or goes to bars and picks up young women (he’s very slimy). Those stories are interesting, too.

    He has denied the relationship he has in the other country several times with people here; says he doesn’t know her that well and that she is engaged to someone else. This was after he declared his “love” for her on a website for his genre of music. And, of course, she’s head over heels. She’ll find out when it’s her time.

    I’m working very hard to figure out what was awry inside of me to allow the abuse for so long, to allow the not seeing of what was right in front of me. That’s why I have to be away from the “family” unit and figure out what I want in my life and whether I can get it as part of a relationship unit or by myself. It’s been an uphill battle, but one I needed to fight. I’ve finally been awakened from the deep slumber of a long terrible night.

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 4:42pm

67. OxDrover says:

    Free,

    I see so many women (and men) go from one BAD RELATIONSHIP directly into the next one without taking ANY time to see what made the relationship “bad” in the first place. It also seems that #2 guy/gal is a carbon copy of #1, and #3, #4, etc follow in the same thing. Just “one”person, but different faces.

    To me, having an “emotional autopsy” with a failed relationship, of any kind, afterwards, and taking the time to see what part YOU played in the failure is the only way we can learn from our mistakes.

    Even if we are victimized, and maybe especially if we are victimized, we need to see why we let it happen. If we played a big part in our own victimization, we may need to make some drastic changes in how we go about our lives.

    I realize full-well that though I certainly didn’t deserve to be treated like I was by my Ps, I sure ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN by not setting appropriate boundaries and defending them. I got sucked into the “dreams” and “fantasy” and didn’t want to let go of it.

    I don’t think I am any less culpable than the woman who went with a man she knew was married, or a married woman who took a lover. I AM RESPONSIBLE for letting the bad relationships and the victimization continue.

    The old saying “Crap on me ONCE, shame on YOU, Crap on me TWICE, shame on ME”! is certainly applicable here in discussing the Ps.

    We let them GET AWAY WITH IT, at least for a time. We knew what they were doing was wrong, how they were treating us was wrong, and in my case I can say that I KNEW THE WHOLE SITUATION(S) WERE WRONG, but I didn’t ACT to stop it until wayyyyy down the road.

    I’m not “blaming the victim” here, even myself as “victim,” but I think I must face the fact that I didn’t behave 100% appropriately either in allowing it to continue. I can’t change THEM, but I can alter my own behavior in the future.

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 4:56pm

68. OxDrover says:

    Not understanding exactly why they behave like they do, is more understandable to me than not knowing why I DID WHAT I DID is. I can’t control, or even predict everything that they will do, and I sure can’t understand what it is like to operate without a conscience—because I’ve never been with out one. I have violated my own conscience from time to time, but it isn’t the same as NOT HAVING ONE.

    To me, understanding what motivated ME to continue in dysfunctional, painful behavior, is the KEY to it all. I had to be “getting something” out of the relationship or I wouldn’t have continued in it, even if it was “negative attention”–whatever it was, it met some UNMET need in me…for something. What? How can I meet that need for myself, rather than depending on someone else to furnish this thing (whatever it is).

    Life is uncertain at best, and anything that we have can suddenly disappear–be it someone we love, a dream, our financial fortunes, our health, ANYTHING we “have” can vanish over night without warning—somehow we must prepare ourselves to depend on OURSELVES, our internal selves to weather these storms and still be “complete” humans.

    My reading of Dr. Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” and to compare what I “lost” to what HE LOST—everything except pain and his life—and yet, he STILL Found meaning even in his suffering. (Shake head here) Now THAT is someone who is strong, who turned “lemons into lemonade” for sure.

    I strive to emulate his attitude—and some days I do, other days I fall far short of it–but it gives me a goal to strive for. To find something noble in myself, some reason for all this pain and chaos, and the only think I can see is that it is to have ME become a better person, one who can still trust, but not indiscriminately, and one who can still love and care, but not allow myself to be victimized by the “evil ones.” To know my own worth, appreciate my own worth, and not look to outside sources for appreciating that worth, but to within myself.

    I guess it is sort of “remedial philosophy 101.”

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 8:10pm

69. Brokenup says:

    Did/does anyone else out there have those screwball moments when, even after and still suffering the terrible heartache…you find yourself saying to others.Please dont think too badly of him ..Hey? WHY not!! And yet, I do..maybe cos I still cant believe he did all those terrible things to me….
    and I will get my money back from him, and he really DID love me…..??? Oh god.. Im not there yet..as you can see… and what a terrible waste of life it is to have to consciously think of all the BAD things he did, to help you get through the day.

    Phew…. I look forward to the time when he is not the first thing on my mind as I wake and the last as I try to sleep. And the one that created a woman I hardly recognized. So ANGRY and so broken….

    Thanks for being here Lovefraud

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 8:13pm

70. LilOrphan says:

    OxD:

    You sound a lot like a Transcendentalist - which is probably what I consider closest to my natural state. Some of us in this world are charged with the duty of finding what is spiritual in this world and of sharing that with others. That reminds me of you. Also reminds me of me.

    I have some crazy ideas on what to do with all this love I have and the lack of place to put it, and how to “help” others without getting too emotionally entangled in their situations, a way to deplete my overwhelming need to “fix” and “help” that will hopefully keep me off the P radar.

    I’m going to, behind the scenes, do for others what I did for him, minus the physical relationship, of course (unless that becomes a real natural outgrowth of my association with these people). When I discover someone hurting, in need of a friend, be it online or in the real world, I am going to reach out to that person. I am going to encourage them, help them bear their burdens, listen to them and share in their troubles, offering advice if asked.

    Sort of like we do on here, but for people who haven’t necessarily had interactions with P’s, but still are good people with problems and maybe nobody else to listen.

    I started this today with a stranger. Actually, started it a few weeks ago with a different person, and find it very gratifying. Also find that it’s taking away my desire to reach out to the P in any way, shape or form, and it is rewarding because I am pouring kindness and goodness onto others with NO AGENDA of my own.

    It’s helping me heal, like this board is helping me heal. And eventually, with enough good karma and loving kindness put out into the world, I will find someone who will shower me with the same, hopefully.

    No victimization involved, either. No crossing lines. It’s a good way to work on my boundaries, as well.

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 9:29pm

71. Warrior says:

    Well said, LilOrphan. Channeling all that energy into something positive is a wonderful way to help in negating some of the damaging effects of all the giving we did and continue to do. I tend to want to “fix” things, too, and your message rings true; that tendency can lead us into mucky waters. Knowing that you are relating to someone else with loving kindness is a beautiful way to get back into the groove.

    Thank you.

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 10:25pm

72. neverneverland says:

    Why did I stay in the relationship? Certainly I knew that it was not a good one for me. I became aware that he was unethical early on in the relationship. I became aware that he lied, cheated, and stole and seemed to have no compunction about using people. I was aware of all of these things.

    I stayed because the good part of him — the irresponsible side that permitted me to kick up my heels and be irresponsible myself — demanded it. Ever since I graduated college, it was the weight of the world. I took care of a drug-abusing (ex)husband for nearly a decade. Then I took care of a paralyzed father, held the family together with my rationality and saneness. When was it my turn to play? To feel self-absorbed?

    My ex tapped into that need by demanding that I have fun with him. I mainlined the fun, needed more and more. I still miss that levity, that feeling that everything is okay without me tending to it. I will always miss that. Always.

    Friday, 18 April 2008 @ 10:40pm

73. Warrior says:

    Neverneverland: If I could articulate as well as you, your last paragraph would have been something that I would have written. That levity is a big part of what I feel missing in my life; that boundless energy; the carefree attitude about so many things. I was thinking about the almost superhuman energy I had during the time with my S.

    The physical part of my relationship with the S was unsatisfactory for me because we had no time together; it was exciting, but everything was always rushed and it really was all about him. He was not into my satisfaction for the brief time we could spend together and I never stressed it as I did not believe I “deserved” it.

    But our conversations were such a big part of my day; I woke up in the morning and couldn’t wait to get him on the phone. He told me stories that were amazing (and yes, most likely either totally untrue or embellished quite a bit). We would drag race down the main road in our city (not hazardly), and laugh a lot.

    I was not blind to the lying, stealing, social paranoia, obvious sex addiction, using people, narcissism–I saw it all, but I did not want to “see” it in relation to us.

    I had forgotten how to have fun over the years and you’re right, it felt good to just kick up my heels and forget about all the seriousness of daily life.

    One of my teachers has told me that sometimes our best teachers are the ones who hurt us the most. I’m still working out in my head what I’ve learned from this experience.

    Some days, I wish I could contact him again just to let him know that even though I’m still simmering with anger and hurt, that I know that I will always love the person I thought he was. I know he would not read the letter nor get anything out of it; that’s his pathology, unfortunately.

    I amazed myself in how I allowed someone to get so close to me; I’d always kept myself at a distance with those closest to me. My “love” may have been a bit obsessive, but now that I know that I can go in that far, it does my heart good because I was actually preparing myself for loving myself. Staying sane and rational in a dysfunctional family is hard and depleting. Getting real joy from every day was/is the missing link in my life’s equation. Thank you.

    Saturday, 19 April 2008 @ 6:22am

74. LilOrphan says:

    Oh, neverneverland I understand that! I was caring for nearly everyone in my family at the time: mom had a hip replaced and was diagnosed with Alz, dad was in a different hospital getting a cardio cath, my girls were home with their own issues….felt so trapped, so much of the world on my shoulders, me who couldn’t keep a ficus alive when I was younger!

    He tapped into that with me, too. Someone to help shoulder the burden, right? Someone who was just “for me.” And I believed that, so very much, even when “for me” became “against me”.

    Was thinking this early morning that I will never again even hope for someone to help me shoulder this life. I’ve been incredibly strong, stronger than I ever gave myself credit for, all these years through events and experiences others could not handle as well.

    I am woman. I can roar alone, you know. When I have a man in my life long-term for real, I will not want for him to do these things for me, unless he demonstrates the desire and character that makes him want to do those things.

    Off on a road trip until tomorrow. Hope all you lovely ladies (and gents) have a beautiful, serene, healthy weekend!

    Saturday, 19 April 2008 @ 9:35am

75. peggywhoever says:

    LilOrphan:

    I can relate to your comments, “Some of us in this world are charged with the duty of finding what is spiritual in this world and of sharing that with others…I have some crazy ideas on what to do with all this love I have and the lack of place to put it, and how to “help” others without getting too emotionally entangled in their situations”. I have the same quest…to “help” people and to “fix” situations or people. I think this is part of what S’s look for in others, their nurturing, caring side, and tolerance of their ill-behaviours with the desire to repair the (irrepairable)!

    In my life I have tried to “help” many, but have found, for the most part, that people don’t want to be “fixed”. Yes, they do want “help” in a needy, demanding of emotions, finances, etc., but most “needy” people are users. I basically think life has two groups: the givers, and the takers. There is, in my opinion, a small percentage who are in a middle group. In my endeavors to help most needy people, in most cases they feel it is an entitlement, and their dark situations can suck us into a black hole with them. I am now willing to offer my hand in friendship, but I will NOT go any dark places, and when their neediness begans to affect my emotional/physical health, all bets are off.

    LilOrphan/Oxdrover/Neverland:

    I think perhaps we are mostly “practical” people, and certainly ethical people. What may have been a large part of what attracted us to the S’s is ther impulsivity and desire for stimulation, and FUN! With them, we could let our hair down, be wild and crazy, and it was ok and even encouraged. Their natural risk-taking behaviour can have a certain zest and appeal, and liven things up a bit.

    Saturday, 19 April 2008 @ 9:59am

76. OxDrover says:

    to all: Yes, I agree with you–we are the “supercompetent” and the “super strong” and we are ALSO the “superCARING” and our BEST QUALITIES become our WORST QUALITIES, because while we have to motivation to help, and the strength to “help” we don’t set the REASONABLE BOUNDARIES.

    My P-X-father-in-law had a saying that was quite good. “You can give people things but you can’t help them, they must help themselves.”

    I don’t think I always drew the line where I should have in “helping.” I did draw appropriate boundaries with some, but not with my own family. The other thing I didn’t do, was to realize that even the most willing donkey can’t carry the entire world on his shoulders and at some point his legs will give out and he will be prostrate beneath the burden.

    In fact, in the letters to my P-son telling him how tired I was, how my “legs” were giving out, I used that analogy of the very willing little donkey lying legs splayed out to the side, underneat this incredibly heavy burden, and his response was “get up, Mom, you’ve always carried the load for the entire family, YOU’RE JUST NOT TRYING.” LOL ROTFLMBO

    The “weight” of stress can be likened to the weight one carries. If you are going 5 miles, you may with great effort be able to drag & carry 100 pounds, but if you are going 1000 miles, it is a different story. The “weight” + the “distance” in time and “miles” determines how much you can carry.

    We can all deal with a major crisis (heavy load) that only lasts a little while. But a major crisis that lasts forever is a much different animal. A group of mini-crises that last “forever” is also very”heavy” in terms of carrying that cumulative burden. When you have a long-term major stress and add in the multitude of daily mini-crisces we meet in every day life, the load becomes unbearable in terms of weight and long-term strength. We literally “wear ourselves out” forcusing on trying to fix the P-situation until our emotional and physical and mental strengths are GONE, then WE BECOME THE NEEDY and CRAZY ones incapable of wiping our own noses. (or other parts of our anatomys LOL)

    My list of major stresses since July 04 when my husband’s plane went down reads like the old serial “Perils of Pauline” where she faced a new major crisis each reel of film and was always left tied tothe railroad tracks with an oncoming train “until next week.” I AM STRONG OR I WOULD NOT HAVE SURVIVED. I also am NOT SUPERWOMAN, there is a LIMIT to what I can do.

    It is MY RESPONSIBILITY to take care of ME. It is MY responsibility to say NO when I don’t have the strength to take on more “weight” and it is MY responsibility to REST when I need it.

    When my dad was dying with cancer I did seek out all the available “help”–home nurses, paid house keeping, the community actually fed us every meal for 9 weeks when he was very sick, my family helped etc. but still, I didn’t take care of ME like I should have. Besides, at the time, I thought there was a pretty short time-limit to my dad’s terminal illness as there was a prediction of 4 months—it lasted 18, due mostly to my excellent care of him, as he said “The best nursing care money could NOT buy” Even now, I do not regret one moment of that 18 months that I spent with him, it was not only a repayment for the wonderful love he had given me as a child, and support as an adult, but for his wonderful self, and the qreat quality time we got to spend together…those times will be some of my fondest memories.

    As crazy as it sounds, we laughed like nut cases over an episode with an enema, and this very private man made great uncharacteristic one-line jokes about the most intimate things, and the indignities he suffered having his daughter do things for him, but yet, he tolerated them so well. He never demanded or became insistent or cranky, even if I was, he was always appreciative and caring, and showed a wonderfully suprisingly witty sense of humor that we had not known existed in this previously very droll man.

    There is nothing wrong with an altruistic giving to others, but that is not the same as “being a patsy” and being taken advantage of by those that want a “free ride” instead of helping themselves. There is always a segment of the human population that would rather ride on your back than walk. But if we carry those people until WE have no strength left, we have neither helped them nor ourselves.

    The “helping” motivation is good on our part, but if we let it become “enabling” instead by doing things for others that they COULD and SHOULD do for themselves, only sets us up for them resenting us, and us resenting them. Knowing the difference between “giving” and “enabling” is the WISDOM that I think we (givers) need to learn. I KNOW THIS, and yet I didn’t always DO THIS—not with my family at least. I did with others not so closely emotionally tied to me. I had no problem there. I set boundaries and enforced them.

    My P-XBF also held out the “fun” thing, and after I started dating him, I did do some fun things, I took a vacation to Colorado with him (my best friend and my son also went along) It was his trip to see another of his “harem” while we were there, but at the time I didn’t know it. LOL We went other places and had fun, and that was the first “fun” I had had in several YEARS at that time. Yes, that was very attractive to me. We went to the living history events together and had great times, we went deer hunting, to festivals and his family events. I started to look and feel 15 years “younger” as my “fun” batteries were starting to recharge. Plus, I envisioned my life being like this “forever” with him, and growing old(er) together. Mutually shouldering the burdens and the joys of life. PUKE! It was all a FAKE.

    So what had at first lifted burdens from my shoulders, instead added a NEWER AND BIGGER SORROW AND GRIEF.

    With no “reserve strength” left from the previous loads I had carried, I fell to the “ground” totally without strength, and my P-son and my mother kept goading me to get up, with the same attitude that a psychopath would beat an exhausted Ox to get up and pull the plow. I had given my ALL, and had nothing left to give to them, or to myself. I couldn’t get up.

    I will (God Willing) never never NEVER give everything to anyone again, but will strive for a balance, taking care of myself first. Because if I don’t survive, I can’t give to anyone. Self sacrifice to save another is one thing, but to self-suicide to enable someone, to do something for them that they CAN and should do for themselves, is not good sense.

    I think until I absolutely learn this and PRACTICE THIS, I will not be healthy or happy.

    Saturday, 19 April 2008 @ 11:13am

77. alohatraveler says:

    On helping others…

    I think that is where it’s at when healing. There was a time when I had nothing to give but slowly, I did.

    In the past, I had jobs that did nothing to feed my spirit but the work I do now gives me an outlet to help people and take my mind off my problems.

    My experience with the Bad Man first took everything away from me…Spiritually, emotionally, mentally, I felt demolished. But now, in a way, I have more than before. It’s like there is something in humanity that I understand now that I didn’t before.

    I’m still lonely at times. I still have bills to pay as a continue to reach for my goal of putting my nightmare behind me… at least financially behind me… but I am thankful for what I learned from BM.

    I can’t say that I am happier than before but I am definately wiser. I hope I will never make choices to my own detriment again.

    :o)

    Saturday, 19 April 2008 @ 1:09pm

78. OxDrover says:

    Aloha,

    I think the “happiness” part will “sneak up” on you before you know it, as you heal. I think that “happiness” is a side benefit of being where we should be emotionally within ourselves and that “happiness”can be there even under the most trying of external circumstances.

    I no longer have the perception that I have “everything in the world I want” which is actually the way I felt before my husband died. I don’t mean I was “rich” in terms of the world’s goods by American standards, but didnt WANT things that were out of reach and didn’t NEED things (food shelter etc) that were essential to life and also out of reach. I had a job that was stressful, but fulfilling and I got a good sense of accomplishment out of it. I FELT I had good solid intimate relationships with most of my family, and still at that time had “hope” (as unrealistic as it was it was still comforting) that my P son was making a change for the better.

    What I didn’t have was a good clear picture of just how fragile my “illusions” were–but the happiness came from those “things”—it wasn’t just within me.

    I have more “problems” today in many ways, but by realizing that my happiness must come from within ME not from the external circumstances of life, I think the happiness I am feeling now is more solid. My self confidence that my happiness will continue because I PROVIDE IT and it can’t be taken away by someone else’s behaviors or loss. Sure, I would be sad if someone I loved left or died, that is normal, but I AM THE ONE WHO KEEPS MY INTERNAL WORLD GOING, not external circumstances.

    Of course you have goals, and things you want to accomplish, like financial solvency’s return, etc. and those are GOOD things to work toward. I’m doing the same thing by cutting expenses to meet my more limited income now since retirement. “A penny saved is a penny earned” LOL Fortunately I’m a “cheap date” and don’t require “high dollar toys” or status symbol vehicles, vacations, etc. in order to “boost” my “happiness.” In fact, I get a lot of satisfaction out of living WELL cheaply! I have a unique “decorator” interior in my home, but EVERY piece of furniture or item there was found at a thrift shop, junk store or bought used. It wouldn’t pass for a Madison Avenue pent house decor, but it is unique, personality filled, and put together with talent and creativity instead of lots of money, and seldom fails to “wow” people when they first step inside my door. Even the inside of my RV reflects my own style and personality…what is uniquely ME.

    I enjoy the company of my friends and helping them do things to enrich their lives, whether it is listening to them tell about their troubles, sharing a joy with them, going to help them change a flat tire, or just discussing books we have read. I am also enjoying these friends more and their company more since I have set some reasonable boundaries as well. With some of them there were a few ripples until they realized what the new boundaries were and that it didn’t mean I didn’t care for them, just that I had “not taken them to raise.”

    I no longer jump in to volunteer an opinion unless I am asked, and then I give it and back off. How they live their lives is their business as long as it doesn’t impact upon my boundaries. If they fail to manage their money well and get into a “crack” because they spent all their available money on “toys” and then had an emergency they couldn’t pay for, oh, well, they can get themselves out of the crack by themselves, and hopefully, will learn from their poor choices. It isn’t my responsibility to bail them out of their self-made problem. I no longer feel guilty because I don’t assume this responsibility.

    There are MANY things I am having to reassess about my own philosophy and my own interactions with others, and how these things has led to relationship problems, and for problems for myself in the past. I think this is really the GIFT that the Ps have left us, albeit unwittingly, if WE choose to see it that way and to take advantage of it. I think if we don’t “get it” and make changes in ourselves (we sure can’t change them!) then we have lost a great opportunity. I can’t remember the exact quote but someone told me once a cute quote that was about “failure is a great opportunity for those that grasp it.” (something like that anyway). Peace, healing and love.

    Saturday, 19 April 2008 @ 1:40pm

79. LilOrphan says:

    That inner world Free talks about is huge. It’s the core of who each of us is and I think that’s why we have so much trouble with how our minds go back and forth after a P or S encounter — they somehow got to that “core” that’s generally fixed in one mode and jiggled it around.

    In some cases, they took a sledgehammer to it and busted all the wiring.

    For example, we had a great trip yesterday and yet I found myself thinking of him, while going somewhere I always went long before he was ever in the picture again. There was no cause to think of him. No triggers, geographical or emotional.

    And yet…there these thoughts were.

    Inside, our souls are essentially the same as they were when we were children. If we were good-hearted, happy-go-lucky (despite living through some nightmarish childhoods) we still have that core. We do grow, experience life-changing events and challenges, but that innate soul remains the same.

    However they do it, for a time the P’s make us doubt and question our own souls, act against those souls somehow, even if it’s just a matter of fighting fire with fire.

    It’s like they short-circuit us with the gaslighting and ambient abuse and we’re badly shaken. BUT — as Free also said, we can return to ourselves, having learned much and still with the inner qualities we’d feared we were losing from time spent with them.

    We do need to examine our own faults and failings — I had many of them, trying to have a relationship with him. But only some of those failings would reappear in a healthy relationship, and none that made us question absolute reality. THOSE issues only come when interacting with a P or N, and it’s helpful to remind ourselves that no matter how much we change, mature and grow, we’ll never be able to have a relationship with a P because they won’t really allow for one — the very love and intimacy you offer them makes them begin to hate you.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 9:50am

80. peggywhoever says:

    I have looked profoundly within myself and endeavored to determine why this relationship with the S, of the many relationships in my life, has affected me so deeply. It was not the relationship of longest duration, nor would I say he was the “love of my life”. I have come to the following conclusions:

    1. There is a deep sense of betrayal due to the loss of faith and trust due to pathological lying that has affected me to the core of my being and caused trust issues to the extreme

    2. There has been a sense of guilt and asking, “what did I do wrong” or “how could I have fixed this/him”. Also there is a sense of failure for the dissolution of the relationship

    3.There is a feeling that I “wasn’t enough”. This could be many factors: wasn’t pretty enough, or smart enough, or didn’t work out enough, or wasn’t slim enough or wasn’t financially successful enough or whatever. The basic, intrinsic feeling was one of inadequacy for not being “enough”

    4. With the S’s there has most definitely been a lack of closure. With other relationships there has been a “talking it out” phase or “what went wrong” discussions. With the S, once they are gone, they’re gone, and there are none of these healing discussions.

    5. I believe we need to forgive ourselves, let go of the guilt, and realize that we ARE enough, in and of ourselves. There is NOTHING we could do, ever, to fix the relationship or the Sociopath. They are so adventure and thrill-seeking, that no one will EVER satisfy them. There is not a woman alive that can keep them entertained over time–because they are incomplete, and they never have “enough”. They must always have another conquest.

    I do believe that with every ending, there is a beginning; and that as one door closes, another door opens. In this case, it appears that the door which opens is the door to ourselves…to our inner hopes, dreams, and desires, and the door to our own hearts; and it says, “welcome home”.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 10:48am

81. OxDrover says:

    Orphan,

    Quote: “the very love and intimacy you offer them makes them begin to hate you.”

    I think that sentence is very on the mark, and “hate” could also be DESPISE (which I think as WORSE than hate).

    In a way they are sort of like the “blind” in a sighted world, they know we have “something” that they don’t have, but they aren’t really sure what it is and they resent us for it, and they envy us for it, but aren’t sure how to “get it” from us or how to steal it, so if they can’t have it, they, like petulant children, want to destroy it.

    I was reading an article yesterday about the women and children of this polygamous cult that has just been raided and 400+ children removed from the custody of their parents.

    The women were telling the police how these children were well cared for and SO happy to be working for the “good of the community” doing chores starting at 4:00 a.m. until they went to bed at 8:00. The cult leader was demanding that the men work up to 20 hours per day building the buildings etc. and were so tired that the police stopped them for driving, thinking they were drunk, when they were just sleep deprived.

    The adults worked WILLINGLY for this monster who had convinced them that their eternal salvation and their families here on earth depended on compliance with his dictates.

    Young girls 14-16 were forced to marry old men 50+ and the current “prophet” of this community is in prison for rape concerning a 14 yr old. Women and children are nothing but sexual objects and slaves. The women devoted to serving their masters and keeping the children in line by isolating them from the world. Keeping them uneducated and compliant, without hope of them breaking free. No matter what happens to these children who have been removed, whether they go back to their deluded mothers or stay in a foster care system, it will leave deep marks and scars on their souls. Hopefully there will be compassion and common sense used by the social workers who work with these women and children.

    Talk about twisting REALITY—talk about a P with “utter control” over the thinking and lives of so many. Their entire community of women have validated each other for so long that they have no idea how to survive in the “real world” or that they have any autonomy or how to use it if they did. Some of these women are 2nd and 3rd generation in this twisted world, while we had to “rethink” our own patterns of relating, they will have to be totally socialized to the 21st century reality of the US, rather than the microcosm of insanity in which they were raised and have lived their entire lives.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 11:07am

82. alohatraveler says:

    Regarding the FLDS or whatever it’s called. I have been reading a lot about this too because I work at Children’s Shelter. Bottom line is children want to be with their parents no matter what. I just had a little girl a few days ago tell me, “I want to be with my Mommy even if she hits me.” :o(

    I think that if they remove these children from their homes for an extended period of time, they will have to create a task force to work with the women and children, led by experienced Social Workers and including a network of women that have escaped this twisted culture…. there are many whom have escaped the polygamy compounds.

    Also, in my opinion, as a very junior person in a Social Services job, I think they need to recruit some specialized Foster Homes. I used to think Foster Homes were always nice Christian families.. NOT! And those children could be exposed to some very rough kids in a Foster Care situation. Also, I think these children would do well at a place like the one where I work because they could kep the sibling groups together and their lives were already in a way kind of like institutional living.

    Lastly, this case brings me to something I think about all the time at work. I think about how powerful words are in shaping who we become. I think about this anytime I have a kid that is fully imbedded in some gang crap. It should be a crime to warp young children into this way of life. Human beings are so impressionable, young and old… because it is our nature to believe what people say instead of thinking, “What that person says isn’t true because they are deluded, disordered, misguided, etc….” This just does not cross our minds. Think of all the times someone said something ridiculous and unreasonable to you and then you begin a conversation with them to try to reason or work it out instead of having a light go on inside that says: DING DING.. Delusional Psycho entering the space. We think we can reason our way out of anything with anyone.

    Anyway, bringing this back to our Forum… I have no doubt that the leader of this “cult” is somehow on the sociopathic spectrum. These kinds of cases make alarms go off in me because of my time with BM. I gave him a lot of power over me for many reasons: He was older. He was a strong man. He was a father of 5. He was an ordained Minister. He was a Captain. But BM told me that he was written up in Seattle and refered to as a potential cult leader type when he was in his Pastoral days. I guess he was really “on fire for God” back then. Now, me thinks, the fires that burn near his feet are of a different origin. (hehehehehe)

    I have read that fanatacism of different kinds are common with disordered people. When I read that, it all started to make sense to me because I could not put together: Religious Leader AND Psychological, Emotional, Spiritual Abuser. I kept thinking that somewhere inside BM was the Pastor like on that show 7th Heaven… just a nice guy that always does the right thing. Never did meet that guy though.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 1:09pm

83. Beverly says:

    Peggywhoever. This is how they hook us into their manipulating game isnt it? Offering promises, putting us on a pedestal and then just keeping out of our reach - so if we could only make things right for them, or be better people ourselves, or bend ourselves out of shape for them. Go along with them, bend ourselves more out of shape, until we end up so misshapen, we dont know who we are anymore. And if we cant hang on to our own identity, we can be subject to persuasion, and mind control.

    As OxDrover says, they begin to despise you for loving them, it is a weakness in their eyes - they have distorted vision. My ex played games with my love and attention to him - he teased and played push pull games and he had the cheek to tell me that all women are manipulative. Despite my protestations that I was not knowingly manipulative, I came to realise it was a script he believed that justified him hating and hurting women outside of his family.

    I see the game now.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 3:10pm

84. alohatraveler says:

    Beverly,

    I was often called manipulative by BM. No one ever called me that before in my life. That’s always a sign that something is off. They pretend they are the first person to tell you the “truth” about yourself. I think if your friends and loved ones have never breathed a word about it, then it isn’t true.
    :o)

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 3:16pm

85. Beverly says:

    Hi AloaT!. I have never been called manipulative and I was shocked to be called that. I later realised it was projection and hatred of women and a way of justifying their pain projection.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 3:20pm

86. newworld view says:

    hi all happy spring……lil orphan you hit the nail on the head with your observation that when they feel our love and intimacy is when they begin to hate us…how odd, sick and profound……..and just so we are not so hard on ourselves, even the NFL has hired professionals to help in their choise of new players…since there is such a waste of money, millions, when players are suspended, etc, they are trying to draft those players with good character and LEAST likely to become involved in disruptive or criminal behavior……many coaches report overlooking all the red flags when they are mesmerized by all the players talents and offerrings and apparent potential….they have found by ignoring the red flags they have lost seasons and BIG DOLLARS…to prevent them from making these tempting mistakes and signing guys with outstanding promises, they have MULTIPLE specialist to keep them from avoiding the attention to red flags…..including mental health professionals…seems we are not the only folks who have been duped… if only we could afford all those experts before a first date, eh???!!!lol

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 4:25pm

87. LilOrphan says:

    Yes, ladies. I too was called manipulative, controlling, psycho and two-faced. Everyone else in my entire life has called me laid-back, passive, go with the flow, smart and wise, and of course, loyal.

    After it ended, he had me believing these things too. Actually, at one point, I started acting them out — the two-faced part, anyway. I started to have a secret life, or pretend I did, and with zero idea why I was behaving this way at the time. Hilarious, as I am the last person to cheat on someone…and still didn’t…but made it appear that I was, after discovering he was not being honest with me.

    Part of me will always love him — the good side of him — but the P and N aspects can go drown themselves. It’s tough - now it feels like I’m “of two minds” too - like he always appeared to be.

    But I’m not. In a year from now, max, I will be 100 percent myself again. Can already feel most of the fog has cleared except for the really bad days, and they get fewer and fewer.

    Love to you guys…we’re gonna all be fine, eventually.

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 7:22pm

88. OxDrover says:

    Well, aren’t we all “special” as the Church Lady of SNL always said?!

    Yes, Orphan, manipulative, controlling, and psychopathic—the trifecta ( or is it tri-ph-ecta? ) of name calling! LOL Oh, and I forgot, LIAR! and MEAN…I’m sure there must have been others too. LOL

    I think I’m past the “two minds” stage at this point, there is no doubt in my mind what they are, but –in a way– I feel sorry that they are such defective humans, devoid of a soul, the capacity to love, but that isn’t my “fault”or my “responsibility” and I can’t fix any of them. I do have compassion for my mother, the P-by-proxy, because I know she isn’t a P, she is simply so dysfunctional that she “bet on the wrong horse” and lost the race. Now she has no one, and that’s sad, but at the same time, I didn’t break her, and I can’t fix her, and I don’t take the responsibility any more for her “happiness” — I can’t make anyone except me happy, and that is only a side benefit of doing what I now is right, taking care of myself, etc.

    Not every day is a cake walk, but there aren’t any PITS lately, and it’s been 3-4 months since I have even wanted to cry so Iguess I am on the upswing. I’m glad for you too, Orphan, Aloha, Free and BEverly, etc. I feel good when I know that others are doing well too. ((((hugs)))) to you all! FREEDOM

    Sunday, 20 April 2008 @ 9:03pm

89. FreeBird says:

    Good morning ladies and thank you SO MUCH for your continued contribution to this thread.

    I tried to post, a few days ago, but somehow my post got “corrupted” and never made it to this thread….which didn’t help in me feeling so “alone” in my recovery.

    Day 24 of NC with the S…and Day 4 that the S has not been in contact with me either (he had been sending me emails, 2-3 times a day prior, and suddently stopped).

    Must admit, that even though I have been strong…maintaining and sticking to absolutely NO CONTACT, his sudden “cut-off” to me, was difficult. It almost felt like he took control again…like he was testing to see if I would react to the sudden stop of “I love yous”, “I miss yous” and “DO YOU LOVE MEs”…. notice that I did say “felt like”…. my mind, logic tells me otherwise.

    Almost everyday is a battle of so many emotions and thoughts…..sorrow, anger, hurt, guilt, etc….Mourning for the unlived dreams together, yet wisdom to know that they were mere fantasies of our existence as a couple. Visions of what I could swear was pure and utter “love for me” in his gorgeous blue, seemingly caring eyes…contrasted by seeing the devil himself, standing right in front of me. Enough to drive you crazy, if you let it.

    And I REFUSE to let it. I have taken refuge in knowing that I CAN LIVE ALL OF THESE DREAMS….without him…even ALONE, as most of them were created BECAUSE OF ME, MY PASSIONS and MY OPENLY DIVULGED DREAMS….these dreams ARE OF ME….he was just smart/sly enough to entrench himself into what I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN and ALWAYS WANTED in MY LIFE.

    The biggest “mourning” of all, was/is of our long distance, wilderness canoe trips…. which he was the one to introduce me to. And, given the “heavy loads” that I’ve had to carry throughout my childhoold/adult life, these were “Freeing”… spiritually so, for me. There is something truly undescribable being in the realms of Mother Nature, in the purest and untouched form, that I immediately connected with it….especially as a wildlife/nature photographer. Oh, and I can go on and on about this…..there is nothing that I would rather be doing, than being in the wilderness.

    Reality tells me though, that this specific mourning is unfounded, as I can easily join many fellow wilderness canoeists/campers/nature lovers, that I have met in the last couple of years…..EVEN alone.

    For me, it’s usually a matter of “catching myself” when I go back to “gaga land” about the S….snap my fingers, close to my face and say “WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! THIS was a VERY SMALL PORTION of what the relationship with the S was REALLY ABOUT!!! HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN about ALL THE ABUSE, physical, mental, emotional, financial, etc?!?!?”

    Sounds a little crazy, huh? This dual conversation/argument within ourselves….Nonetheless, I need to do it…I need to remind myself, EVERY MOMENT, that I AM NOT MOVING BACKWARDS….ONLY FORWARD. And, that once I actually put myself out there…..my complete, NEW and IMPROVED, out there …. at the stern (was always the bowmate) …..in control of the canoe….behind the lense of my camera again…..AND ACTUALLY LIVING IT on my own, then I will know that THIS IS A REALITY and THE FREEDOM that that will bring is MY GIFT TO ME.

    Reading all of your posts, this morning, gave me even more power to continue the COMMITMENT to MYSELF …. and so, I shall commit and confirm my attendance to a planned canoe trip on my birthday (May 24th) as MY GIFT TO ME.

    For I DESERVE IT.

    LOVE and HUGS to ALL of YOU …. Words cannot explain how much better I feel today….back in control….because of people like yourselves, on this forum. Thank you! :o)

    Monday, 21 April 2008 @ 8:55am

90. FreeBird says:

    Thank you so much for your continued contribution to this thread.

    I tried to post, a few days ago, but somehow my post got “corrupted” and never made it to this thread….which didn’t help in me feeling so “alone” in my recovery.

    Day 24 of NC with the S…and Day 4 that the S has not been in contact with me either (he had been sending me emails, 2-3 times a day prior, and suddenly stopped).

    Must admit, that even though I have been strong…maintaining and sticking to absolutely NO CONTACT, his sudden “cut-off” to me, was difficult. It almost felt like he took control again…like he was testing to see if I would react to the sudden stop of “I love yous”, “I miss yous” and “Do you love mes”…. notice that I did say “felt like”…. my mind, logic tells me otherwise.

    Almost everyday is a battle of so many emotions and thoughts…..sorrow, anger, hurt, guilt, etc….Mourning for the unlived dreams together, yet wisdom to know that they were mere fantasies of our existence as a couple. Visions of what I could swear was pure and utter “love for me” in his gorgeous blue, seemingly caring eyes…contrasted by seeing the devil himself, standing right in front of me. Enough to drive you crazy, if you let it.

    And I refuse to let it. I have taken refuge in knowing that I CAN live all of these dreams….without him…even alone. When I really think about it, most of these dreams were created BECAUSE OF ME, MY PASSIONS and MY OPENLY DIVULGED DREAMS….these dreams ARE OF ME….he was just smart/sly enough to entrench himself into what I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN and ALWAYS WANTED in MY LIFE.

    The biggest “mourning” of all, was/is of our long distance, wilderness canoe trips…. which he was the one to introduce me to. And, given the “heavy loads” that I’ve had to carry throughout my childhoold/adult life, these were “Freeing”… spiritually so, for me. There is something truly undescribable being in the realms of Mother Nature, in the purest and untouched form, that I immediately connected with it….especially as a wildlife/nature photographer. Oh, and I can go on and on about this…..there is nothing that I would rather be doing, than being in the wilderness.

    Reality tells me though, that this specific mourning is unfounded, as I can easily join many fellow wilderness canoeists/campers/nature lovers, which I have met in the last couple of years…..EVEN alone.

    For me, it’s usually a matter of “catching myself” when I go back to “gaga land” about the S….snap my fingers, close to my face and say “WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! THIS was a VERY SMALL PORTION of what the relationship with the S was REALLY ABOUT!!! HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN about ALL THE ABUSE, physical, mental, emotional, financial, etc?!?!?”

    Sounds a little crazy, huh? This dual conversation/argument within ourselves….Nonetheless, I need to do it…I need to remind myself, EVERY MOMENT, that I am not moving backwards….ONLY FORWARD. And, that once I actually put myself out there…..my complete, NEW and IMPROVED, out there …. at the stern (was always the bowmate) …..in control of the canoe….behind the lense of my camera again…..and actually LIVING IT on my own, then I will know that THIS IS A REALITY and THE FREEDOM that that will bring is MY GIFT TO ME.

    Reading all of your posts, gave me even more power to continue the commitment to myself …. and so, I shall commit and confirm my attendance to a planned canoe trip on my birthday (May 24th) as MY GIFT TO ME.

    I KNOW it will get better, each and every day, it should get easier. TIME is will eventually heal these scars….this much, I must believe….for myself.

    Monday, 21 April 2008 @ 8:36pm

91. Warrior says:

    Brokenup: I feel for your pain and the suffering you are still going through. It will take some time. Each day is a step forward even though sometimes you feel like you’re walking through quicksand.

    Because we’re empathetic people, we do want to see the good in people and it is very challenging to view someone as flawed as socios are in their true light.

    It’s been almost ten months since I had to say goodbye to the man I thought I would love forever, who said I was his best friend, who said he thought we should be together and be married. I was so totally wrapped up in this person.

    Almost as soon as we got together, though, I started having physical symptoms (high blood pressure, heart palipitations) and also started seeing a therapist (I had never seen one in all my years on this earth, but SOMETHING was making me see that I needed it). I stayed with the man and loved him dearly, but deep inside I knew he was not a good man.

    It took several years of lots of therapy and many talks with friends before I realized what he was doing to me; what I had turned into because of my feelings for him.

    He had made plans to skip the country and because he was such a coward, he would have never told me. He just would have disappeared one day without a word. I did not give him that chance. Now my town and my friends know that they were right about him and other people learn about him every day (not necessarily through me).

    He is still on my mind a lot; I still “love” the person I THOUGHT he was, I just have to remember that socios create a mirror of yourself in them. It’s as if they are empty shells who look for a soul to land on (yours) and then they reflect back to you the person you want to see.

    This guy turned out to be so low-class and slummy in his habits; I had no idea or I just didn’t want to see. He treated most people badly, thought people with money didn’t deserve it and he tried to get as much of it as possible, he thought only of himself, did shoddy work in his business and entertainment life, the list goes on and on. I look back at pictures of him and wonder why I didn’t see the inherent evil in him.

    I just wasn’t ready. I had to learn and I did and now I’m embracing a life without that fear of loss–I can’t believe some of the things I did trying to hold on to him. It was not worth it and would never be worth it.

    Hold yourself dear; you are most important now. That’s why this happened to you; it is your wake-up call. Listen carefully and know that, given time, you will be healed and whole again (or maybe for the first time). What a glorious day that will be!

    Tuesday, 22 April 2008 @ 6:40am

92. Warrior says:

    OxDrover:

    “Because if I don’t survive, I can’t give to anyone.”

    This is perfect.

    Tuesday, 22 April 2008 @ 6:44am

93. GypzgrlV says:

    I can’t believe I found this site. You all have no idea how much it means to read your comments and finally KNOW it is not my fault! (Well, except for the co-dependence and enabling ability) I have been struggling with this “love” that I am unable to get over on and off for 16 years. The past 4.5 years have been an absolute roller coaster. This has been the hardest thing I have ever had to do. I must do the no contact thing. Every piece of me hurts doing it.
    Ha! I have no friends left. He’s poisioned everyone I liked and everyone who liked me is long gone. Who can put up with my whining?? I can’t even stand myself. I know I am a strong, intelligent single mom who has a fantastic kid, own my own home, but I am broken. How do I find out how to fix me? I find myself believing utter BS lies, why? Those who I let in just roll their eyes and tell me to get as far away as possible, and yet I am powerless. Who do I talk to? Does anyone have any suggestions?
    I threw all his stuff OUT last night. It will be gone when I get home from work today. How in the heck do I stay strong? What do you tell a nine year old when he says, “Mom don’t forgive him this time?” And even though you KNOW you are wrong, you still can’t shake that “Feeling”. Oh gosh. I am sitting here condemning myself. Thanks for your blog postings, I will continue to read and gain strength and knowledge.

    Wednesday, 30 April 2008 @ 9:47am

94. LovingAnnie says:

    ML Gallagher - beautifully said.

    Your post says everything about why I stayed as well.

    In healing, I have to look at my own accountability so that I can change those things that brought me to be a willingly blind cooperator with a sociopath.

    OdRover : very true for me as well. I am glad to learn it, and keep relarning as I go, so that I stay clear from here on out.

    LilOrphan : “does this thinking bring me more of what I want in my life - or less” ?
    90% of the time it brought me less.
    Now I know that red flag for what it is and will pay attention.

    I used to think that crumbs were better than nothing, that I had nothing else going on romantically so hoping for/dreaming/waiting for him was better than being alone completely.
    Now I realize that almost constant pain and anxiety and insecurity isn’t worth a few random hours of pleasure.

    Friday, 23 May 2008 @ 11:01am

95. OxDrover says:

    Annie,

    “constant pain and anxiety and insecurity isn’t worth a few random hours of pleasure” RIGHT ON!!!

    “now I know that red flag for what it is and will pay attention” RIGHT ON again!!!

    In the end, Annie, though the “tuition” for your “degree” in the University of Hard knocks (UHK) was HIGH, if you learned the lesson, it will benefit you the rest of your life! (((hugs))))

    Friday, 23 May 2008 @ 11:46am

96. hummingbird1418 says:

    I think we all stayed in these unhealthy relationships because we thought that we could somehow fix what was wrong with this person. Unfortunately, sociopaths are not curable in the traditional sense. They do not understand the harm that they have caused others. Their life is nothing but lies and deceptions.

    It is very difficult to explain to other people how I let this P influence and control my life for four years. Others warned me that he was not be trusted and, of course, I thought that they didn’t know him like I knew him. He seemed too good to be true. I put my trust in this man and he betrayed me.

    It is a difficult lesson to learn. It is much harder dealing with the end of a relationship that never existed in the first place. The giving part of the relationship was all one-sided.
    The Ps take and take until there is nothing left.

    Friday, 23 May 2008 @ 12:17pm

97. cherrydreamsicle says:

    Can a cheater change? I kept telling myself people can change. You hear about homeless people turning their lives around. You hear about alcoholics never having a drink again. You hear about people deciding to go back to school at 40 to better their lives. Why do cheaters hurt people intentionally? I always felt that there are not bad people. There are those that are products of their environment. There are those that are products of circumstance. and there are those that are mentally ill..addicts. For the past 5 months I have been in love with a cheater. I blamed everything else…everyone else…including myself. I made excuses for him and tried to help him. I said he can change..he is not a bad man ..he doesn’t want to hurt people. I lost myself ..my self esteem. I blamed my looks..maybe if I was more attractive…What is wrong with ME to make him want to be with other women? Why am I not enough? I changed…I didn’t care about friends anymore….as long as I had him. I didn’t want to go anywhere…do anything…unless it was with him. I acted like someone I am not proud of. I said things I never thought I would say. I don’t even recognize myself anymore. I am not the only one. So many women were hurt by this man. So many damaged self esteems. So many women blaming themselves…Women begging him not to leave. Women willing to take their lives for him. Women hurting so bad they start acting out of character. Women that loved him..and honestly believed him when he said the same thing. New women still getting hurt. I couldn’t let go. He would lie…I loved him. He would cheat..I loved him. He told me it was me he loved…I believed him…Everytime he cheated he treated me badly like it was my fault..and I went back for more. I posted a message about him. I thought…maybe strength came in numbers. I thought…that it would make him hate me..and I welcomed that ..I would be free. I thought it would make him stop. I thought I would give the women what they needed to be able to let go. What did the post actually do? He called me the day of the post thanking me for doing what he couldn’t…and asked me to come over. I hurt women by telling them horrible details… Women hurt me by telling me horrible details… The women turned against each other… All the women still wanted him. The women thought I did it to get him all to myself…I thought he would hate me…never talk to me again…I thought we would help each other…be strong…I thought because I knew he was with another woman the day I posted it I would be strong. They thought I was the lucky one…I won some sort of a prize. Yes..I was lucky to have a man who sneaked in the bathroom on his cell phone Yes…I was lucky to have a man sitting on the balcony on the phone in the middle of the night Yes..I was lucky he was showing me text messages from you that hurt. Yes..I was lucky to wonder if his business trips were actually real this time Yes… I was lucky to remember things women told me…Yes…I was lucky he was still on dating sites conversing with women. Yes…I was lucky to worry everyday if I would hear from him. Yes…I was lucky when I was contacted by one of the women he made a date with on a dating site. Yes…I was lucky the women were still holding on..unable to let go… He said “I love you” to all of these women…all of them. He told me this weekend…he loves me…but only when he is with me…when he is away from me he doesn’t love me anymore. He said that is what enables him to do what he does with no remorse. He said he collects women. He said he feels he can cure their problems with sex. He is all yours ladies…enjoy.

    Tuesday, 2 September 2008 @ 6:34pm

98. tami says:

    cherrydreamsicle:

    Yes, mine loved me when he was with me and how! I was with him nearly 8 years and his wife for 7 of those years. He played the role of the perfect loving husband so well that I didn’t have a clue that he had cheated on me repeatedly from the very beginning of our relationship. I had picked up on the subtle remarks that his family members and friends made over the years about how he had cheated on all his women before me but I took great pride in believing that I was the woman of his dreams–because that’s what he always told me. He’d lovingly look at me and tell me that he never dreamed that he could have a woman like me and that I was his soulmate. He did this for 8 years and I never doubted him for a second despite several red flags that pointed to at least inappropriate behavior with other women and certainly behavior that a married man should not have been displaying. But, he had the perfect explanation for each incident. He was also SO insanely jealous of me if he felt another man might be trying to move in on “HIS” woman! He had a way of appearing to be innocent, gullable and childlike. He presented himself to be the most needy person I’ve every known and it was me that he needed in order to feel complete. I felt that I had to protect him from all harm and defend the little mistakes he made–like when he was accused of coming on to another woman when all he was really trying to do was “be nice to her by offering her a compliment”. At times, I felt much more like his mother than his wife but discounted it as his own lack of life experience and that I somehow needed to protect him from the everyday stresses of life by paying most of the bills and buying him things that made his eyes shine like a kid on Christmas morn. I thought I was in full control of the situation and felt that I had to be very careful not to hurt him because he loved me so very much!

    I was a 39 year old woman when I fell victim to this man. I had been around the block a time or two and had already spent 15 years being married to an abusive alcoholic who used fear to control me. Nope, I don’t think that one was a sociopath despite the abuse. He committed suicide. I can’t see a sociopath committing suicide.

    However, I had NEVER encountered someone who used charm and love to manipulate me. I have tagged him “Mr. Nice Guy”. That’s how he operates. He eventually left me not long after I found women’s phone numbers in his vehicle. He couldn’t lie out of that although he tried by swearing that he’d never called the numbers! At that point, I told him “one more time” and you’re outta here. He promised he’d never do anything so stupid again but that’s when his predatory skills REALLY kicked in and he desperately started lining up his next victim. And, he found her. A 29 year old that had been married to the same man for 13 years–since she was a kid. The spark had left their relationship and they each had tested a few other waters after having married each other too young.

    Mr. Nice Guy came along and swept her off her feet. He convinced her to either buy or help him buy a doublewide to place on “his farm” after only knowing him 2 months and BEFORE she had even filed for a divorce from her husband. She learned later that the farm actually belonged to his mother who lived in another state. During this same time, she bought a new jeep for him to drive around in. He’s never had a pot to pee in and used to bask in the attention he felt he was getting when he drove my new car around. I tried to warn her. NO! I tried to SAVE her but I can’t compete with this man’s charm and lies. He found the PERFECT victim this time but I hope I managed to plant a seed in her head so that she will at least be on her toes.

    So, to answer your question. No! They NEVER stop cheating. He’s 40 years old and I have no doubt that he’s doing the same thing that he’s always done. And, he’s SO good at not getting caught. He’s got it down pat. They love us only when they’re in our presence. Once out of our site, their predatory nature kicks in and they honestly don’t even have the same expression on their faces or the same personality that we see when they are with us. They don’t have to because it’s then that they can be who they really are…they can’t let us see that side of them or they know we’d run like hell! I had mine being watched after he left me and got with her. He was being observed when he was NOT in her presence but at work and when he was out and about. I figured he’d be all smiles and walking around on cloud nine. It was reported back to me time after time that he had a coldness about him and a dark expression on his face and a piercing stare. I was told that he didn’t even come close to looking like the person they once knew. That was the same look he took on when he announced that he was leaving me. And, it was the look of a monster not my innocent childlike angel that I loved so deeply. I’m sure it’s the same look that he had when he was out of my presence, too. They are monsters.

    Wednesday, 3 September 2008 @ 6:10am

99. psycheintact says:

    Extraordinarily well-written, thought provoking post!

    I recently had a similar epiphany! Of course his lying infuriorated me, but what was worse was my lying to myself about who I was and my inner truth. Henceforth, I realize that when I lie to myself about what I know to be true, I betray myself. I am an intelligent, acutely perceptive, well-educated woman. I need to live in reality as opposed to the slight-of-hand/word illusion/magic that these folks create. If I continue to seek his validation for my perception, I am a gonner…………..

    Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 3:22pm

100. justabouthealed says:

     Why did I stay? It has taken me a long time to figure it out. First, regardless of whatever psychological weaknesses I may have, THEY WERE NEVER A PROBLEM WITH ANYONE ELSE! So no bad guy, no problem! We must remember that the shame and blame belong to him! But, just as when I was raped, eventually I stopped blaiming myself and said “Damn, I better learn some moves to defend myself with, because there are BAD guys out there….and even if I had a slumped posture and even if I wasn’t alert as I should have been….IT WAS HIM THAT CREATED THE RAPE, NOT ME!” Likewise, while I can list the reasons I stayed, it is for the sole purpose of learning to defend myself from the next ATTACKER….it is in NO WAY to suggest it was my fault. I know now the dreams that seduce me….and it was believing that the dream could come true so easily, just by hooking up with this guy, that kept me involved, despite all the pain. Look at what people on the show “Survivor” endure to make their dreams come true (they think). I wanted that dream to become true. NOW I’m busy making my dreams come true myself…and they are!!! But the key to letting go was to realize 1) he was not offering that dream, it would never come true and 2) that he had not rejected me, it was never about love, it was about power and control. That when he said love you, he meant I own you, I control you, I lust you, you are and will remain in my total control. And when I’m done with you, I’m done, it is all about my needs. It was never about a reciprocal relationship. So basically I stayed because I was in love with a dream and was projecting my good traits on to him, assuming he was like me, and I thought it was about love, didn’t realize it was about power and control.

     Thursday, 27 November 2008 @ 3:48pm

101. justabouthealed says:

     Freedbird: I had the same thing…he took me into nature and was a photographer too and called in birds to swirl around us, etc. Part of the dream and the allure. And like you, I would stay outside all the time if I could. and at first I did mourn that loss of the experiences in nature, then found others to enjoy them with, minus the on edge feeling of having to please him every second, and adding in the joy of being with people who are CONSIDERATE of me. What a contrast! Plus I’ve found guides who are much more talented than him and don’t demand my body in repayment! It is a stage we go through, thinking they are the source of the joy, when actually they are the source of pain. and yes, many improvements in my life came about perhaps sparked by his interests or whatever, but *I* am the one who made the changs happen, and they are *MY* dreams that I had long before he was around.

     Thursday, 27 November 2008 @ 4:14pm

102. justabouthealed says:

     Warrior: I know you posted so long ago you may not see this, but what you and neverneverland said fits me too. It was about being free of responsibility, he was so in control….yet when I escaped and was around people who CARE and are CONSIDERATE, it was like a breath of freshair. but yes, a wake up call that I needed more fun in my life, that I give and give, but must also enjoy my time here on earth. LOL! How many people need to be reminded to have fun! Probably quite a few victims of P’s. Warrior, regardless of the circumstances, and mine were similar, you were a victim, and if you are like me, you have paid a really heavy, heavy price and shed a ton of tears. Your husband understood? Mine gave me permission for an “open marriage”…it was the stupidest thing we’ve done….but he said he wanted to know NOTHING. So I have had to keep all this incredible pain to myself and hide my tears and shame. Our marriage is closed again, and we are 200% improved, a GREAT marriage now. But what hell with the P. Funny we look back and say an attraction was to the FUN they offered. Illusions, all illusions.

     Thursday, 27 November 2008 @ 5:52pm

103. Iwonder says:

     Yep. They never do change. My ex is a 40 year old man who has cheated on every woman he has been with. He is probably cheating on the woman he left me for but she thinks she is the one who can change him because she feels so special. He told her last December he wasn’t with me anymore but this past May, when I found out about her I kicked him out and then he had to tell her he was still with me. She forgave him and took him in. She knows he lied to her but accepted it. She will be another tradgedy in the near future. In my opinion, he’s probably thinking if she forgave him for that, he can do anything and she’ll forgive him. Not a very good way to start out a relationship, aye?

     I do believe he planned to leave me in June. His plan was to leave without a trace, without a clue as to where he went and why…just like he did to the woman before me.

     He’s been gone for 6 months. When we first split, I was so hurt and angry at her and at him. But now, i look at it as if they did me a favor. My nightmare has ended….but hers is just about to be starting about now. It’s a one way street with him. You give and he takes.

     My family tells me I look great. They can see the change. They tell me they saw what he was doing to me. I didn’t look the same. I looked depressed, stopped taking care of myself, gained weight. This is because my ex would tell me what clothes to wear, complain if I got my hair cut or high-lighted, complained if I wore makeup, told me to stop watching my weight because he accused me of trying to keep my figure to attract other men. He wouldn’t let me out of his sight. Accused me of looking at other guys, flirting with guys at work, was jealous because I made 4x more $ than him, got me fired from a great job due to jealousy, verbally, emotionally, sexually abused me and once got physical by grabbing me by the throat. He didn’t work for half of the 2 yrs he was with me, used my credit cards, didn’t help with any living expenses, and didn’t make any car payments on the car I helped him get by putting a loan in my name due to his crappy credit, bought him clothes, let his son move in and I paid for all the groceries, did the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry. All the while, he had this other woman set up right in town just waiting in the wings for the switch. One day when I ran out of money and complained, he said “it’s time.” What a scumbag. I’m so angry at myself for allowing him to roll over me like a steamroller. I feel so stupid.

     Thursday, 27 November 2008 @ 8:43pm

104. Indigoblue says:

     I KNow
     Don’t feel Stupid ! Don’t blame yourself for a single thing you did it was all Good and Right and Honerable! That is their Game and It has no rules ! so ya can’t play unless you are as deceptive as they are! Please read OxD sept 9 forgiving yourself for being Human! Here in the archives!
     Free! Except I will need you to make a small token of your appreciation to my Paypal acct # e v i l 6 6 6 about $$$$ will do for now ! LOVE JJ

     Thursday, 27 November 2008 @ 10:40pm

105. Stargazer says:

     I didn’t stay. As soon as I knew for a fact that his bizarre behaviors were not an accident, I walked. But it killed me–I was so hooked. 2-1/2 months was even too long to wait around for him. If I ever meet another one of his kind, I’ll know the signs and walk right away. The recovery still took (and is taking) a very long time. Don’t beat yourselves up for not leaving right away. I don’t know if spending less time makes the healing happen and faster.

     Thursday, 27 November 2008 @ 11:49pm

106. justabouthealed says:

     I’ve been thinking some more about not only what kept me “in” , but what kept me ruminating after it was over. I think I was so focused on “did he love me or not? did he hurt me on purpose or not? was there a reason he did what he did that is justifiable or not?” I didn’t spend enough time focusing on the relatively EASY question to answer: “Is this a person full of the traits I most admire in someone? (regardless of how he is treating ME, regardless of what he does or does not feel for ME).” Because after the mask falls and you see who these guys are…..their traits aren’t on our list of what we always hoped to see in a man! Manipulation, not forthright, deception, cheating…..gee, just what I always hoped for in a man …NOT!

     Tuesday, 23 December 2008 @ 8:11pm

107. lostingrief says:

     Iwonder:
     seems the forgiving ourselves is the hardest part of all this. i got steamrolled too. he had the pregnant gf in the wings for months, but didn’t have the key to her apartment yet. as soon as he had it, he told me what was going on and he had no trouble when i told him to get his crap and get the hell out. no problem at all after so many years.
     just know that everything he accused you of is what he was doing. all the jealousy was about him cheating and deceiving. these people are freaks of nature. i wish i had 1/10th of the money i gave him back in my bank account. my ex-spath never gave me a cent for expenses either and just drained me of every cent. then he had the nerve to tell me that i can’t take care of him like i used to and i should get a second job!
     yea, they’re really sick.
     but, hey, it’s a new year and we can’t move forward holding on to old grief. let’s not second-guess ourselves any more. whether we let it happen or not, it wasn’t for selfish reasons, and it wasn’t to screw anyone. it was done in faith that humans will act human. but now we know that doesn’t apply to all.
     let’s all forgive ourselves first, and worry about these effin’ losers later.
     i cried for my ex today. it’s our first christmas apart. after tearing for 20 minutes, i thought, ”he never bought me a present and while he called me over his vacation (with his wife), he was NEVER with me on christmas anyway!” sometimes we just have to face the reality head on.
     it’s just one more christmas day alone and without a present from him. the only difference is that i’m not being trampled. it feels good to be in an upright position without shoe prints all over me!
     TOWANDA!!!

     Tuesday, 23 December 2008 @ 10:49pm

108. Stargazer says:

     I think we should all count ourselves lucky that the P’s are out of our lives. What could be better than a P-free Xmas?

     Tuesday, 23 December 2008 @ 11:21pm

109. Iwonder says:

     LIG: I know you’re right. I’m spending Christmas with my parents and relatives will come to visit. It will be nice. I’m so looking forward to 2009. I have a whole list of things I want to accomplish this coming year. Gotta work on me:
     * Better Job
     * Get out of debt
     * Fix up my place
     * keep going to the gym
     * Expand my circle of real friends
     * Back to school p/t for 2 more licenses

     Tuesday, 23 December 2008 @ 11:45pm

110. lostingrief says:

     iwonder:
     that sounds wonderful. without these mutants sapping all our strength, everything we do it better than before.
     i’m finding that my entire life is improving in a very general, non-dramatic way.
     let’s just stick around to support eachother, and be thankful for our freedom from spathness.
     merry christmas!

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 6:51am

111. pb says:

     I stayed because I made a commitment.
     I stayed because we to belly laughed together.
     I stayed for his daughter.
     I stayed because I didn’t understand.
     I stayed because I was confused.
     I stayed because I there is treatment for alcohol/anger.
     I stayed for a hard working guy, a beautifully intelligent girl, a home, and a yard.
     I stayed because I’m trusting and I believed him.
     I stayed because I had no idea.

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 3:25pm

112. justgotburned says:

     This is a great site! It has surely helped me heal emotionally. One thing that probably slowed it down in some regards was I didn’t stick with the NC rule. Initially, it was for the same reasons most everyone else has. Then I was doing research, and trying to get into her head. The sad thing is, for the most part, I could see most anything coming before it was brought up…..or maybe that was a blessing, I’m not sure. The one thing I did come to realize, even when I KNEW it was a lie, it was hard not to think I must have been wrong. I thank God for the comments from people on this site and from friends that weren’t afraid to tell me what they thought. If not for those two things, plus the knowledge I gained from the involvement, I am CERTAIN I would have allowed myself to get sucked back in. A few of the things I was out to accomplish after discovering what was REALLY happening:

     Pull it all back together - was against my better judgment from the start, gave up on that fairly early.

     Recoup my financial losses - seemed logical at the time, but in the end, just not worth it.

     Let the other party involved know what he was dealing with - Had a few opportunities to do this, but couldn’t get it done. The struggle internally for me was…are you doing this to warn another, or doing this to be spiteful? Surely it was a combination of the two, and I couldn’t weigh which had the most credibility, so that is done for me as well.

     Finally I set a date to have no more interaction, and that date is today. As many of you can understand, there are still some mixed emotions, but I can sure change that sooner rather than later with NC.

     Again, I thank all of you and will continue getting on here, hopefully I can impact someone else positively as well.

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 6:28pm

113. justabouthealed says:

     Caongratulations on the NC decision!!! Sounds like you are doing all the right things. I’m so sorry you had to go through such a painful process, but NC IS the answer. If I even see a post from the P on a site I know he uses, it sets me back, so I’ve stopped visiting the site. I know someday I will be so healed that won’t happen, but “reactivity” to old cues makes the hurt resurface. I still can’t listen to romantic music AT ALL.

     Good luck and stay strong.

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 6:45pm

114. OxDrover says:

     Dear Justgotburned,

     CONGRATULATIONS!!!! What a wonderful holiday gift to yourself, THE START OF HEALING!

     NC is difficult at first, and we fight it I think, because sometimes it feels like (to me anyway) that any connection is better than no connection….but once you get NC for a while we almost all seem to say to ourselves “why didnt I think of this sooner?” LOL

     Happy holidays! And God bless you!

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 6:55pm

115. justgotburned says:

     For justabouthealed:

     I think I made it more painful, or at least made it drag out longer than was necessary. The main thing is, I have and always have had good people around me, and can actually function again. I never would have imagined that I allowed myself to be so paralyzed at this point in my life. Surely there will be the things that are reminders, some things I might not want to do again either. I will be happy when the day comes that you can say ‘romantic music is soothing’

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 6:58pm

116. Healing Heart says:

     Congratulations Justgotburned! Today is such an important day if you are starting NC. Try to stick with it. It won’t be easy, but you can lean on all of us. We’ve all been through it or are going through it currently! (I’m just a few months of NC).

     This is a wonderful place.

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 11:36pm

117. Indigoblue says:

     Now that all the Holliday Cheer is out of the way ! I would really appreciate it If someone would go get me Beer and Cigaretts! :)~

     Thank you each and everyone of you! Donna Thanks I know i’m a big mouth but I got a really Big Heart Too! This site has so much Positive Energy and Genuin LOVE!
     Happy Hollidays to You and yours! LOVE JJ

     Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 11:42pm

118. Stargazer says:

     Well, lookie who decided to join us on Xmas eve! Indi, have you hugged your snakes today?

     Justgotburned, you will find after a period of NC that your mind will start to get clearer. What better time than the new year to start your new P-free life! Congratulations!

     Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 12:24am

119. justabouthealed says:

     Thank you for your kind words, justgotburned. I too have good people in my life, and it helps. It also makes me wonder how the heck I got this far off the path! I think part of it was I *am* surrounded with good people and just assumed the P was a good person too, who would resist hurting me. In fact he often said “I don’t want to hurt my special people”…..yet that is exactly what he ALWAYS does to everyone in his orbit that he “loves”. It is sort of like when someone starts assuring me that they never lie, I start thinking to myself “So you struggle with lies, huh? Cause it sure is on your mind a lot.” But all that common sense was thrown out the window the P. And then I got a “betrayal bond” thing going with him….argghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 It was awful, awful, awful. And that is why reactivity can still be a problem. But I’m learning to lable it as that and refuse to be pulled into tears, etc.

     Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 12:26am

120. henry says:

     Merry Ho HO to every one - I have no complaint’s tonite - but stay tuned!!!

     Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 3:27am

121. henry says:

     I don’t miss him at all - I don’t hurt like I did - by spring I bet I find my joy!!!

     Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 3:28am

122. breaking free says:

     What makes them a S. I am in the process of leaving my ex bc I am finally tired of his cheating ways. We have fought over at least one girl for our whole 2yr relationship. He cant seem to leave her alone. He claims he only helps her when she calls in need. She claims he comes to her begging her back and says things to her basically that he is saying to me. BUT with me…we live (even though in different states) as we are a true coupled even like a married couple. He helps pay bills here and while here he gets things around the house that is needed and same with the car. He claims he is getting transferred here but the delay is bc of me going back n forth with him (breaking up) bc of getting mad of him keeping contact with this other chic. But now I am thinking he has someone else as well. While on the phone with me just recently he acts as if he is just so depressed (at Christmas time) with me leaving him and that he wants to sleep for the next couple of days so they just disappear and be over with. BUT I texted him merry Christmas (to be nice) and no respond even called with blocked number and he is not answering. I know his phone trick from when he stays with me. While here his phone is ALWAYS ON SILENT and he is on it when he leaves to go to the store or something and I dont go with him. So I am thinking he is with someone now and again his phone is on silence. Also with the money thing…From reading here it looks as if S take your money and leave you for broke but like I said he is always helping me out. BUT I DO PAY FOR IT LATER WITH VERBAL ABUSE. ” I have done more for u then any man has ever done” ” no one does for you like I do” and the list goes on. He actually uses any thing I have said to him against me too. His last visit he was cruel with his words even man handled me so I couldnt leave (my own house) bc I was tired of hearing his crap about what i was or wasnt. SO I GUESS WHAT I AM ASKING IS AM I DEALING WITH A S OR JUST A LYING AZZ MAN…. He does the whole claiming to be on charities, does well with his job (so he says) and so forth…BUT he never does wrong….its always my fault. HELP….we just broke up 2dys ago…not sure how to handle it.

     Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 10:11pm

123. Wini says:

     Breaking free: Who cares what he is … he still cheats on you. Not focusing on you and you solely is enough reason to kick this guy to the curb. When you do, NO CONTACT whatsoever.

     The first time anyone does anything wrong (man or woman) is when they are testing the waters to see what else they can get away with. Period. No if’s ands or butts about it.

     I don’t know when everyone got really greedy in this country, but it’s a sad state of affairs.

     NO CONTACT because he will say or do whatever he thinks you will accept to take him back so he can be a selfish, self centered jerk.

     Then as you read this site in detail, you’ll be able to figure out what he is.

     Peace to your heart and soul … and try to relax and enjoy the rest of your holiday … even if he won’t give up being selfish!

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 12:28am

124. henry says:

     breaking free - My X gave me money, not at first, but when he thot he would be kicked out he would give me all his money, it was one more way he could control me. I thot it was because he cared and wanted a future with me, but it was just a way to keep me apeased. He did just enuff around here to apease me. But still at the end of the day I was in the red with his money. It was a way of making me feel responsible for him. But it was all a form of manipulation. If he is keeping his cell phone on silent when with you he is hiding something, someone ,no telling how many. Yes he is a sociopath, pulling your string’s and toying with your mind. Break free and have no contact at all and you will get your indentity back……hang tuff…

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:25am

125. Indigoblue says:

     Silent Night
     All is calm all is Bright

     All because theres no P insight! :)~ LOVE JJ

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:39am

126. Stargazer says:

     Breaking free,
     Sounds like your ex is dangerous, no matter what he is. “How to Spot a Dangerous Man” is a great book to help you identify the different dangerous personality disorders. There is a section on emotional predators. When I started reading that chapter, my jaw dropped. I could not get over the similarities to my S, right down to the limp he is faking to get out of the army (in the book it says that they may walk with a limp as a pity ploy). I also didn’t know for a while if mine was a sociopath because he also never took any money from me. He always picked up the tab, drove us in his newer model car, and behaved like a total gentleman. There is another article here that says the true signifier of a sociopath is their exploitive nature. I will add that sometimes it takes a while to learn you are being exploited. Another telling sign is the pathological lying. Sociopaths can look you in the eye and lie without the least bit of anxiety about it. It’s as if they believe their own lies. According to Martha Stout in “The Sociopath Next Door” (another book worth reading), “Deceit is the underpinning of the sociopathic personality.” There are other personality disordered people who lie. For instance, addicts lie, too. However, with a sociopath, lying seems second nature. It’s as if they believe their own lies. They tell them all the time, and they seem very sincere and believable.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:43am

127. Indigoblue says:

     Merry Christmass Christmass GIFT!

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:54am

128. Stargazer says:

     Indigo,
     I hope you had a nice Xmas without the black cloud of your evil ex to ruin it. I usually prefer to spend Xmas alone that to go to a house full of someone else’s family. But today I opted to go to my boss’s house with all her extended family and friends. It was a little overwhelming for me. I think next year I’ll stay home with my animals. I hope everyone else enjoyed the holiday.
     Hugs,
     StarG

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:10am

129. Indigoblue says:

     Mine was very Relaxed
     Because the Family has Multiplied several times over. It’s not how I remember it. I stayed home because I broke my Jeep! I told them Id try to make New years!
     But Christmass was easyer then Thanks giving I guess because the P has stayed NC. I knew NC for him was no BIG deal ! As long as He thinks it was His idea! :)~ Big Squeeez LOVE JJ

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:19am

130. Stargazer says:

     I’m glad to hear that, Indi. I actually enjoyed doing nice things for my friends this year. I burned a lot of CD’s and wrote a lot of cards, decorated my condo, and have had a few people over. Christmas is traditionally a very melancholy time for me. Last year I avoided the melancholy because I avoided Xmas. I stayed away from department stores and anywhere they played sappy Xmas music. I didn’t give gifts or even send cards. I told all my friends I was “opting out” of Xmas. It worked, and I stayed sane. This year, I just noticed I felt okay, and didn’t need to avoid anything. I actually kind of enjoyed it. I am Jewish by heritage, so Xmas doesn’t have the same meaning for me it does for Christians. But my family used to have a tree and celebrate the holiday anyway. It was very odd.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:31am

131. Indigoblue says:

     I am Christian
     But a specific day is not real important to me ! I Celebrate the FORCEs POWER everyday! :)~

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:36am

132. Stargazer says:

     Okay, I guess I must be on a roll writing tonight. I came home from a huge meal and fell asleep, then woke up at midnight.

     I was thinking about Christmases growing up. They actually were nice in spite of my abusive dysfunctional family. Sometimes we even went to some fun new years parties. I guess Xmases have been hard for me as an adult because of the the confusion over my family. They were so abusive toward me but there were also good times. I actually miss the remaining family members during the holidays, but cannot be around them because they are toxic. All the things I feel about them seem to culminate during the holidays–sadness, resentment, longing, hopelessness, and memories of the good times too that will never return because they were tainted by the abuse.

     I have never really enjoyed spending Xmas at someone else’s house with someone else’s family, even if that someone else is a kind friend or boyfriend. I just never feel that comfortable. Perhaps if the families were more dysfunctional, I’d feel more at home. It’s one thing to surround yourself with healthy, loving people that are not like anyone in your past. It’s another thing feeling comfortable with it. I feel I am pretty good at dispelling abusive people from my life. But I wonder if I will ever feel completely comfortable around healthy ones.

     I was reflecting on one of the things that drew me to the P. He claimed to also have had an abusive father and difficult family life. Of course, in retrospect, I realize he probably just made that stuff up to mirror me. But it seems I relate and identify more with men who have come from some kind of screwed up background. The problem is that a lot of those men have issues and are undatable. I have dated some really wonderful men in my life who wanted to marry me and take care of me. But if they came from happy families, I just felt like there was a big chasm in understanding, and that we couldn’t relate to each other. I really hope I can get past that so I am not limited in who I date.

     Thanks for listening. These are my ramblings after a long day of eating, stressing, and sleeping.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:44am

133. justabouthealed says:

     I accidentally married an emotionally healthy person.:-) He’s had issues and problems over the years, but he does NOT have a personality disorder and he IS mentally healthy. I was lucky, we got married before we really knew each other. That is how he ended up with me, and me with him. We were married five weeks after our first date. Luckily he was a GOOD guy, despite committing so quickly.

     Sad to say, at first I tried to “recreate” what I had experienced at home. I think some of his issues came from battling me on that. But he hung tough,and I finally came to see what I was doing wrong, trying to get back into a victim role.

     After all these years of living with him, finally the tide has turned and I’m getting much more mentally healthy myself. Now I do feel good around mentally healthy people.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 12:22pm

134. Wini says:

     StarG — time for you to write you own life. Your NEW and IMPROVED LIFE … That’s what healing is all about … for you to meet the people that will be good to you and you in turn are good to them. The new people don’t have to be lovers in romantic relationship with you, but… they can be true friends that love and care about you!

     Keep walking on that path of peace and love …. and you will see … we will all get there together.

     Piece of cake, piece of pie…. oh, sorry, you’re too full right now! (LOL).

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:17pm

135. Indigoblue says:

     Now If Kerry Degman rang the doorbell and wanted to Rock my World!

     Or lets say Who ever Your Favorate Celeb is right now How many of you would not Invite them in for Tea??:)~

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:22pm

136. justabouthealed says:

     I am still having trouble with this original post. When I was physically raped, I stayed. I had weaknesses. I knew nothing about how to take a knife from someone. I knew nothing about how to throw off a big guy. I could have. I had opportunities to take self defense courses. But damn it, I still say it was not my fault that I got raped, just because I could have prevented it, had I more understanding at the time!The guy was still a rapist.

     And that is how I feel about the guy who emotionally raped me. Yes, with more integrity on my part, it would have never even happened. And I hope and pray no one will be able to do it to me again. That I will stand firm in my beliefs. I’ve devoted thousands of hours of study and writing and therapy to insure that.

     But I will never say it was not his fault. He was the rapist.

     I have the ability to respond….and I take that responsibility. I took it then too….I simply didn’t have all the tools I needed to stay firm in my integrity against his manipulations. Now I’m stronger. Now I can fight off worse attacks.

     So I forgive myself…but I don’t forgive him and he repulsed opportunities to show remorse or make amends. Without that, my forgiveness is just another naive move.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 3:58pm

137. Indigoblue says:

     Ya don’t forgive them for them ya forgive them for your own wellbeing! They could care less! But If you hold on to hostile feelings. Because we take it Personal! Those emotions only hurt us! LOVE JJ

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:03pm

138. Stargazer says:

     Forgiveness of the S is not difficult after all this time. Granted, I don’t want to run and fling my arms around him and sing Kumbaya. The hardest part is dealing with all the betrayals of friends who took his side. I was hit with a few of them all in the same week, and I’m still a little overwhelmed by the feelings of betrayal. I have not yet found my way to trusting people after all of this, except for my trusted few longtime friends.

     It was the same with my S stepfather. Easier to forgive him. Harder to forgive my mother who never protected me from him or took responsibility for that. I suppose I just hold different people to different standards.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:10pm

139. OxDrover says:

     Indi,

     You are so right, “forgiveness” is not saying “it wasn’t anything” or that “you didn’t mean to hurt me”—forgiveness is simply to QUIT BEING BITTER—it does NOT mean you have to trust them, or feel squishy for them again, Just accept that they are what they are, they did what they did, and you are not going to let it make you stay bitter forever.

     If you stay bitter and angry forever, then THEY HAVE WON, THEY STILL HAVE SPACE RENTED IN YOUR HEAD.

     I won’t let them have that satisfaction. Hate is NOT the opposite of love, it is INDIFFERENCE. To just be where they are like a total stranger to you. Just NOT IMPORTANT in your life any more. Just a vague person you “once knew”

     It takes time and work to get to that point, but we can get there.

     Actually, I am so glad I have gotten as far as I have on that point of “forgiveness” because I feel so much better since I am no longer angry all the time, snapping at people, snapping at myself, it feels wonderful to not be pissed off all the time. LOL A wonderful new feeling! It’s like I don’t wish them harm, but I don’t wish them good either, just NOTHING. If that makes any sense.

     Think about some kid in school when you were a kid that “picked on you” and how you despised that kid. Do you still think about that kid all the time? Do you wonder how he or she is? Are they happy or sad? Healthy or sick? NO? Well, eventually I hope you will get to think about your X-P the same way, just “not important.”

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:28pm

140. breaking free says:

     Thank you for the many words of advice. STARGAZER the lies he tells you are right…they are told in ways that are so believable. He stars in my eyes and tells me what he im sure wants me to hear for the moment. Even over the phone he gets so upset when i am having trouble believing him. When I question him or pin point where maybe he was wrong…oh my goodness does it all break out. He likes to focus on anything that I have done wrong which can be so small compared to his lying, cheating and manipulation…but the conversation always switches…to my wrong when I am trying to tell him what he did that hurt me.

     also stargazer to your statement right above me. I am so bad when it comes to forgiving and forgetting…I do it way to easy. I seem to forget way to easy someone doing wrong to me and then just act as if everything is okay…so that just makes it so much easier for the S to keep doing wrong to me. RIGHT…

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:37pm

141. justabouthealed says:

     The problem is , like other’s stated, I too tend to forgive too easily and forget too easily. And to not recognize abuse when it smacks me in the heart or face. So I have to be careful about forgiving, because then I open up and let the person in my heart with some boundaries, and before I know it they are in my life with some boundaries, and before I know it the boundaries are gone and I’m right back where I started.

     Now indifference! That is a GREAT goal I can work toward. Thank you, like the analogy about the school yard bully. True! Yet when I saw mine from grade school, I knew I didn’t even want to talk to her!!!!!!!!!!! That is indifference….but I clearly had not forgotten that she is poison.

     But forgiveness has a price of admission for me, and the Betrayal Bond sets a pretty high bar for what an abuser must do to be back in your life. Maybe others can forgive and still not let someone back in their life. For me, it is a slippery slope. I’d rather live with the effects of a little bitterness when I think of them, than take a chance on opening the door to life-destructive abuse, through my forgiveness that has a tendency for me to say, then why NC?

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 5:10pm

142. Healing Heart says:

     The lies are amazing. I realize now that my ex S would always say whatever would serve him best in the moment - no matter what. It’s like he didn’t understand what “truth” meant. He would say, automatically and immediately, whatever it was that best served his needs. It never seemed like he was lying because he wouldn’t miss a beat, wouldn’t pause, wouldn’t squirm, or look the least bit uncomfortable - he would just look me right in the eye and calmly and assuredly say whatever best served his purposes.

     I caught him in this sort of thing in the beginning, and just thought it curious rather than indicative of serious pathology. For example, I asked him if he had any tatoos, after I had already implied that I didn’t like them very much. He calmly said: “No.” Very matter of factly like it was the truth. Then, several dates later, when I saw him with his shirt off - there was tattoo right on his arm. I remember thinking “huh, he told me didn’t have a tattoo, but he does. Maybe I’m remembering wrong because who would tell a lie in which he would surely later get caught?” A sociopath. That’s what I know, now. That was a HUGE red flag. He lied because saying “no” served him best in that moment. It scary, because he really did not miss a beat, did not pause, did not have a flash of nervousness, anger, anything, go over his face. He just calmly looked me in the eyes and said “no” when the answer was clearly “yes.”

     That lie didn’t hurt me like the lies about where he was, who he was with, etc, that followed. But it was a real red flag, and clear indication of S behavior.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 5:32pm

143. Matt says:

     Healing Heart:

     “The lies are amazing.”

     I think back on the crap that used to come out of S’s mouth and think I must have been in a dissociative state to have bought that nonsense. I mean, if I had a witness on the stand who told some of those whoppers I would have a field day with him.

     But, I just stood there and took it. I remember him having a conversation with his sister one time and saying “Deliberately tell him you don’t want to do something. You want to see if they have a little backbone.” I went blithely along with everything S said and demanded. And S up the ante and the lies got progressively worse, hurting me more, proving that I did have no backbone, until I decided to get out.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 9:33pm

144. Stargazer says:

     HH,
     My S lied in exactly the same way yours did. His lies were so convincing I believed them right up to the end. Once I knew he was a pathological liar, I got to observe him lying to a few people and on the forum. My jaw just dropped. He was so smooth. Lies just pour out of his mouth like you and I breathe. How can all these guys be so similar?

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 9:40pm

145. henry says:

     StarGazer - Have you ever seen the movie ‘Practical Magic” with sandra bullock and nicole kidman? Everybody should watch it - now they know how to take care of evil men..anyway you remind me of the character that stockard channing play’s in the movie

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:00pm

146. Healing Heart says:

     I know! Isn’t it just amazing how alike these guys are?! And frightening. My ex S was so awful, so cruel, and so amazingly deceptive - I had never seen anything like it. And then I read your posts - every one male, female, gay, straight, younger, older, and you are all describing the same guy (or woman)!!! What happens if two of these get in a relationship with each other?

     The lying was also like I’d never seen before. I’ve had boyfriends, lie to me, but I could always (almost) see it - they would squirm, voices would speed up or slow down, they’d blink more, or just something as subtle as an eye brow raise. But it was usually discernible. But my ex-S must have lied to me a dozen times a day - more than that. And I never figured it out until the stories just didn’t add up (which didn’t take too long). I remember the first time that I confronted him on being with another woman, he responded in what I thought was such a genuine, and sincere way (denied it of course) that I was convinced I was wrong, and ended up apologizing to him. Which he graciously accepted. I remember being comforted by the way he remained calm, looked me in the eye, spoke in a normal tone and pitch, and said “Of course not, Baby” without flinching. I was sure he was telling the truth.

     So many times I read what you guys are writing and swear it must be the same guy I dated. But it isn’t! They are just so remarkably the same. In such ruthless, conscienceless ways. I am so glad I’m one of the good guys.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:01pm

147. Stargazer says:

     Henry, I hope the Stockard Channing wasn’t a psychopath….I’ll put it on my list. BTW, I saw my neighbor that you remind me of the other day and almost called him Henry.

     HH, my S was/is the nicest guy you’d ever want to meet. You meet him and immediately like him. He is like the guy next door. Even when he was lying to me and discarding me, he was just so nice. That’s what makes it so creepy. He never raised his voice, insulted me, or called me names. He just lied, broke promises, and then eventually just stood me up. But he was very nice about it, always apologizing right up to the end.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:08pm

148. Matt says:

     Stargazer:

     Mine was the same way. The thing that always nagged at me was how my nephews and nieces steered a wide-berth around him.

     My 7 year old nephew remarked to me that he heard “You aren’t seeing S anymore.” I concurred. He asked “Why not?” I told him that S did things which I didn’t like so I couldn’t be his friend anymore.

     Then I asked him “You didn’t like S, did you?” And he point blank said “No. Because he gave me the creeps.”

     Kids and dogs. They are the real lie detectors.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:17pm

149. henry says:

     Star - is your neighbor that reminds you of me single? maybe you should take a bottle of wine over and start a new friendship….stockard channing was a witch in that movie - a very sweet witch…..

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:18pm

150. Healing Heart says:

     ARGH - just wrote a long post and then lost it.

     Matt - kids and animals……I thought it was interesting that my ex S had no interest in animals whatsoever. Never patted a dog on the head, never even commented that someone’s dog, or cat, or a deer, was “cute.” It was like animals didn’t register - probably because they were of no use to him. I never got to see him interact with an animal because he never went near them.

     As for children - he charmed the kids in my family very quickly, just like he charmed me. I watched - he played games with them, made them laugh, held them, sang to them , rough-housed with the boys - and then completely lost interest in then. He devalued and discarded children faster than adults - again, because they were less use to him. It was sad to watch. He really seemed like someone who loved kids at first - and they did fall for it - but then he dropped them, completely lost interest. I could see that they were confused by it.

     Just had all my sibs and their partners over for dinner. As well as two of the babies (older kids are with a sitter). I was driving home from the market with the groceries, and I felt really relieved that my ex S was not with me. Although he was very friendly to my family at first, after a short time he was grouchy about any family visits - probably because they got in the way of him having sex with other women. I was so relieved, today, that I didn’t have to worry about “was he having a good time,” and wasting all my energy attending to him rather than engaging with my siblings. I could just enjoy my family. Though there were times where I felt pangs of being alone - I’m the only one without a partner. But thank God I’m not with him. Now I have the opportunity to have a real partner.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:34pm

151. Healing Heart says:

     Oh, my ex S children spoke the truth to me. Early on, his son said “my Daddy’s a cheater.” And the first time I met the daughter (this was still during the idealization phase), she looked at me, almost like an adult looking at a child, and said, in a sad voice “He won’t always be this nice.” I remember thinking “WHAT?” What a weird thing to say - he’s the sweetest guy ever.

     Sweet little guys were warning me. I feel so bad for them. They have a string of “stepmoms” - women they become attached to, and then get ripped away from.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:39pm

152. nic says:

     My husband (we are almost divorced) called our 2 yr.old at 9:30 last night to say Merry Christmas. What is that? The day was almost over.

     He came over today and brought her gifts which were very expensive. He also bought my oldest daughter a video game and he stayed for a couple of hours and played with them.

     I completely lost it after he left. I took a shower and just cried. I miss being around him. It is like we were all craving his attention and time when he was here. He then left and I am sure he went to the OW. But then I prayed after crying and remembered all of the horrible things he has done to me in our marriage (cheat, lie, had a child, hit me once, left me and didn’t talk to any of us, etc.) and now I am better.

     He wants to pick up our daughter tomorrow because his brother and oldest daughter will both be in town. Ok, he hasn’t asked to get her on a weekend and so now he wants to get her. I am debating if I am going to let her go or not. He is supposed to get her every other weekend but he only gets her once a week. It is upsetting that he just wants to get her because of his visiting family.

     And my husband is really good around children also. People love his energy and personality. I am sure the OW’s 4 kids love him too and her family. They probably think she has found her a real catch but it is only a matter of time. He is a great actor.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:45pm

153. Healing Heart says:

     Nic - that is so sad. I know that feeling - like you are “all craving his attention” when he does appear. That used to make me feel like a stray, starving, mongrel who was just dying tohave her head patted. And like he was this god who bestow affection, in small doses, on whomever he was valuing at the moment. I was so heartbroken when it became increasingly clearer and clearer that I was falling on the list. Not only did he not pay attention to me, it actually seemed like he was repulsed by me. And just months before he couldn’t get enough of me and I was on top of the world.

     What these guys do to us is horrible. We would never do that to someone we loved. I’d never do that even to someone I disliked.

     And that he’s doing that to his kids must be so sad for you. My ex S was several years divorced - and I could tell that his kids were starving for attention from him the way that I was. I think his ex-wife (they were several years divorced) is caught in hell- he keeps her close enough to prevent her from dating anyone else, while he goes through girlfriend after girlfriend. She keeps taking him back, and he does it to her again. Nic, I hope you are able to get out and stay out. There is a really great guy out there who is going to be your future partner - get away from the loser. (easy for me to say - it was much harder for me to do. )

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 10:57pm

154. nic says:

     Healing Heart,

     I do plan to stay out. That was a great analogy “stray, starving mongrel”. That is what I felt like. He knew it too so I think that fed into his ego. I think my husband would probably try to keep me close enough too so I won’t date. He had the nerve to ask if we could still be friends after the divorce. I just simply told him no because a friend wouldn’t treat me the way he did.

     I know there is a great guy out there for both of us!!! (not the same guy of course…lol).

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 11:14pm

155. Healing Heart says:

     Ha! As long as we both have learned our lessons and stay away from S’s, it won’t be the same guy! But if we keep attaching to these guys, the next dumbass could well date both of us at the same time! WE WON’T DO IT.

     It made my ex S nuts when I did No Contact with him. His ex-wife did for a while, and that also made him crazy. If mine felt discarded by me, it made him want me badly. It maybe wrong, and not a very spiritual thing to do, but I took some pleasure in his emails saying he was “devastated” over the loss of our love. I have no doubt that he was still sleeping with other women while being “devastated” over me….but still, I was glad that for once he was wanting me and I wasn’t giving him the time of day.

     I know NC is for our own health, and not to punish them. But I think its an added bonus that it makes them hurt. You have children with yours - so you can’t do NC the way that some of us can. But I think there are several women with children they share with S’s on this site who are able to do some form of NC - with strict rules around drop off, pick up, of children.

     Making us into stray, starving, mongrels, is incredibly cruel. Can you imagine deliberately doing that to someone? And yes, I think it fed mine’s ego, too, to know that I was longing for him. I’m so glad that part is over. I still long for him sometimes (though very rarely now, mercifully), but he doesn’t know it. He just knows that I want nothing to do with him and ignore ALL of his communications. As people have said on this site, the one way to regain and retain your grace and dignity in a relationship with an S is to go NC.

     Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 11:24pm

156. justabouthealed says:

     I just had a funny thought. My P aka the “the DumpsHer” (like dumpster) love bombed me and dumped me 4 times. Here were his excuses for dumping me, after saying he was in love, needed me, and when apart he claimed he was trying to breath my molecules in the places I had been, etc.

     1. I met someone better over the weekend.
     2. I need to concentrate. I’m not retired.
     3. I read a book on the plane that made me change my mind.
     4. My life is different now. I’m retired.

     And the really BAD part is I was in such a fog that I understood each time!!! Yes, of course it is fine to do this totally sudden and complete reversal in a matter of TWO DAYS (or less each time….once it happened in 15 minutes…passionate love making, he went out for a cup of coffee and came back and dumped me at the start of a vacation we had planned for months). It is fine to dump me, I totally understand! Yes, I know you didn’t plan this. Yes of course. GEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Then I’d start crying after a it really hit me, try to make him see he was being cruel (like THAT was difficult to see and if I just pointed it out to the poor man, he’d understand and surely rethink things….Well, apparently it WAS difficult for ME to understand that was not only cruel but a complete deal breaker after the FIRST time!!!!!!!!!!!) and on and on.

     And there was a discussion on one of these blogs about the funny things they say. Once he told me he was going to have a heart to heart talk with his son and tell him that he really loves him. When I saw him later and asked how it went, he said, oh really great. I said, “What did your son say, how did he react?” and he said “OH, he wasn’t there when we had the talk” LOL! I asked him about that and he said, “oh I told my other kids that I love him.”

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 11:05am

157. justabouthealed says:

     argghh. Not to get too graphic, but even just writing the above post gave me instant diarrhea, which I still get if I even think about him too much. I’m truly going to get off this site awhile and try the emotional memory containment AGAIN and see if I can get rid of this PTSD. He is out of my life, and believe it or not, other than 40 years ago, I only was face-to-face with him FOUR times….but the whole betrayal bond and PTSD thing is still going strong, though I’ve not saw him for 1.5 years and not talked to him for 11 months. So I am doing this to myself now.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 11:37am

158. justabouthealed says:

     I’ve not SEEN him, I meant. He even makes my brain stop working!

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 11:39am

159. Stargazer says:

     Healing Heart said, “Although he was very friendly to my family at first, after a short time he was grouchy about any family visits - probably because they got in the way of him having sex with other women.”
     HH, this just cracked me up. I’m sure it wasn’t funny at the time!

     Henry, my neighbor David is single. He is the sweetest guy you’d ever want to meet. I’m having a New Year’s day party. You are more than welcome to come here (to Denver) and meet him! And me of course! We can fight over you.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 12:44pm

160. Stargazer says:

     Justabouthealed: Why do they always dump us after a night of passionate lovemaking? That is also when I got discarded by my S–the very next day. He was too cowardly to take responsibility for the discard, so he just pulled a no-show, no-call, then wrote to me and said, “I have no excuse. I’ll always love you though.”

     Even eerier, though, was realizing that an ex bf (who I now recognized as emotionally unavailable with S tendencies) did something very similar. We were living together and (I thought) planning to marry. After a morning of passion, I left to run errands. When I got back, he was on the phone with his new conquest, telling me I “wasn’t his girlfriend.”

     I am still astounded how little lovemaking means to a dangerous person like this. It’s really inhuman and inhumane. Even many animals bond to a certain extend after mating.

     Fortunately, I did not take either one back after that debacle.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 12:51pm

161. Healing Heart says:

     I don’t get the lovemaking thing, either. At all. At first I though our sex life was great - and was real, connected, lovemaking. That was the first 3-4 months. Then it started to feel a lot more mechanical. It wasn’t so good any more. And then we broke up in march, and got together a handful of times before the final NC in early August. I think once in all that time it was lovemaking. The rest it was mechanical. I think he was having sex with so many women (gross - I was tested for every STD in Oct - clean slate, miraculously) that it wasn’t lovemaking with anyone. I have a feeling that if I took him back now, it would be lovemaking for a week or so, and then back to mechanical. I wonder how many people on this site felt like the lovemaking was real lovemaking, and not just sex, for more than six months in a row. I wonder if these guys (and women) are capable of lovemaking for an extended period of time. Or if they just can fake it for a while, and then can’t keep it up.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 1:43pm

162. Stargazer says:

     That’s just it–I couldn’t tell. Seemed very connected to me, but they are so good at faking things. The S commented that I was very passionate. He also noted early on in our friendship that I was very authentic and a hard worker. He made special note of these things, as if they were foreign qualities to him, which, apparently, they were. All the qualities that drew him to me were qualities he lacked. He thought I was very funny. He once commented how he was also funny, but I never once remember him ever making me laugh.

     He did seem to have a very childlike demeanor. He seemed very present (at the beginning), showing joy in everything. The salad I made him was the “best salad he’d ever had”, and our first day together taking pictures for the reptile site was the “first time he’d felt alive in a long time.” He savored every bite of food he ate and seemed to be a very happy, fun-loving person. That’s why I liked him so much. I just really enjoyed his company. He enjoyed doing all the things I do–visiting cats at shelters, visiting snakes at snake shops, going on drives, going to ethnic restaurants….it was just so easy to be with him.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 1:53pm

163. Stargazer says:

     That lasted about 3 weeks before all the drama started. At least with the emotionally unavailable man, we had a 3-month honeymoon period before he disappeared into his office and his multiple other jobs/hobbies and never resurfaced till it was with another gf.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 1:56pm

164. justabouthealed says:

     Well, I shouldn’t have said “passionate lovemaking”. It was NEVER that, I guess I just didn’t want to write “15 minutes after using my body to masturbate himself”….because regardless of how it was done, that is all it felt like to me and I never had an orgasm with him, my body was shouting at me…”get out, get out” and I didn’t. I stayed and pretended it was great….I thought with a little more time. …GEEZ. He was immature about sex, into porn, SICK.

     This whole thing was SO not me. He even did what I would now call sexual assault once, where suddenly I was pinned down with him doing his thing in my mouth. No way to say anything, no way to move an arm, a leg….I thought I was going to choke! I had never done that and it frightened me. And I just told him it was great.

     It truly now seems like I was insane, temporarily insane. I was so convinced he was a wonderful person, so convinced that we would be a life long source of emotional support for each other, that a love that had lasted 40 years must be special….that I simply DENIED reality to an astonishing degree, I MINIMIZED and EXCUSED what he was doing to me to an even greater degree. Just shows how deserate I was for validation and for an intimate love that would never go away.

     And so the cure is to get strong within myself, to fall in love with myself, one therapist said. This is going to take awhile. To put back together my self respect and to get strong. This whole experience really rocked my perceptions of myself, who I thought I was.

     With him, I was literally going back in time to literally recreate my past with the boy who had hurt me so deeply at 15 and this time I was going to make it turn out right. HA! So it was trauma recreation and also put me back in the mindset of the girl I was at 15 who had just been raped 3 years earlier. Ironically, he was my first love after that and got me to trust men again. Well, I’d rather be physically raped then live through what he put me through.Then, and now. But his adult success convinced me he was just immature at 15.

     Ironic how so often they turn out to be the OPPOSITE of what we thought they were.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:00pm

165. justabouthealed says:

     Stargazer,

     I can see how all that was HIGHLY seductive. Very hard to see through also. I can just imagine how much it hurt….well, I know, I got hurt so badly too.

     In fact, I think one thing that threw off the therapist (who at first didn’t recognize this as a toxic relationship, nor did I) was that he and I DID have interests in common, and it was not just all sex (thank god!). We went out and did things together that we both were passionate about and really had fun doing.

     Well, the bottom line is, the most imporatant thing in a relationship is does the man show you, daily, that your happiness is almost important to him as his own, through his actions. Is he a good, kind loving person towards almost everyone? Is he ethical?

     Had I just paid attention to that barometer…..oh well.

     I really do need to stop obsessing and get on with my life. This has been healing but I need to stop rehashing.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:09pm

166. Stargazer says:

     Your posts are making me think, justabouthealed. We don’t often talk about the sexual aspect here, but it’s very telling. I only had sex with my S four times, as the relationship was relatively new. My overall feeling about it was that it was too soon, and my body did not trust him yet to let go completely. I’m thinking that even though my mind tricked me, my body didn’t lie. Once a relationship becomes sexual, it is really hard to break the ties.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:12pm

167. Healing Heart says:

     Hey guys - yes, the sexual aspect is interesting - and I haven’t seen it talked about much - I guess this is sensitive area, particularly for trauma victims. But both of what you two are saying resonates with my experience. “Using my body to masterbate himself.” Yes, that is definitely what it felt like. Mine needed to get more and more gymnastic to enjoy it. More and more “dirty talk” which I didn’t particularly like. It was like two people, together, in love, was not enough of a turn on. It felt demeaning - but I would go along with it hoping that it would somehow help us get back to the original place of what I thought was lovemaking.

     He told me at the beginning of our relationship that he had “completely lost interest” in sex with his wife before he left her. I felt that happen with me - and didn’t understand how that could change so drastically. I didn’t change - my looks didn’t change, my love for him hadn’t changed - but I felt repulsive to him after a while.

     And I know of two women who he cheated with (ugh, that feels so bad), and I am much more attractive than they are. It didn’t make sense, and was just so painful.

     And yes, SG, the bonds are there, so strong (for us, not them) once we get sexually involved.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:27pm

168. justabouthealed says:

     I think for most women, most NORMAL people that is true. When I complained to my therapist that the sex was so bonding, her response was “It is SUPPOSED to be bonding.”
     Even the horrible, bad, user, exploitive, all about him porn sex was bonding! I was only with him 4 times but he used my body about 21 times.

     One last thing. Once, when he knew I was about to leave him, he did a really romantic move, and though my body STILL didn’t respond, he did some very sweet moves.

     WELL,,,,,later I watched a movie that he said is one of his favorites……and there was the love scene!!! He had replicated it step by step. He could only act loving by following a script!!! When I asked him about it, he had the decency to look a little sheepish, but he changed the subject as he always did when he didn’t want to answer a question or couldn’t think of a good lie quickly enough.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:33pm

169. Healing Heart says:

     Oh, Wow, that is so familiar. Every once in awhile I would call my ex S on his overly sexualized behavior - like if we were having what I thought was a romantic email exchange, and then he would make it pornographic (and not sexy, just dirty and demeaning), and I would say something, he would apologize and send me something very flowery and romantic. I would read it, and would be beautiful - but no way he wrote it. At times I got the sense that he might be cutting and pasting from other people’s emails, or copying from some literature. Spontaneously, on his own, he couldn’t come up with anything loving.

     That’s funny, and true, what your therapist said about the sex SUPPOSED to be bonding. DUH! But like you said, the sad thing is that the demeaning sex is bonding too.

     I’ve read many people on this site saying that the sex was amazing and that it pulled them back in, and that he made them feel better than anyone before. I don’t get it. I don’t see how these guys, (and gals) who are so intrinsically selfish and without empathy, could be good lovers? Maybe some have better techniques that others, but are they ever great lovers - or are they just good vibrators?

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:43pm

170. Healing Heart says:

     SG - about your body not trusting him - I got UTIs over and over and over with my ex S. My body went into “fight infection mode” almost every time I had sex with him. The body knows……..

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:46pm

171. justabouthealed says:

     HH….and yes to the acrobatics. In fact, he was where a man is supposed to be to impregnant a woman but doubled me over and was suddenly in my mouth, for what I now call a sexual assault. Ironically, he nicknamed his “family jewels” …get this….”the MONSTER”. He was right!

     Today, if my husband sees porn, he laughs, talks about the ridiculously poor acting, shuts it off. This guy hung on it, took it very seriously, was glued to it with an intent look.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:47pm

172. justabouthealed says:

     One last comment. Even with a vibrator that always works for me, I could NOT have an orgasm with that man. He was exciting, I was busy acting uninhibited (what was WRONG with me, putting on such an act for him!), but my body was saying “NO WAY”.

     I think it just depends on the type of Con they are into. This guys idea of giving a woman good sex was getting her under his control, MAKING her respond, frustrating her, etc. And like your guy, he would be arrogantly obscene in a phone message or email message and think nothing of it. Once in awhile he would say “did that excite or repulse you”….I guess he was using me as a tester!

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:55pm

173. Wini says:

     Healing Heart and Justabouthealed: Don’t get so upset over the freaky aspect of their love making techniques … for those are borrowed too (like everything they do is borrowed) … from movies or pornos, Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt and the rest of the rags out there that they’ve been viewing since pre-teen days.

     And everyone wonders why our society is such a mess? Look what we are up against with the media making billions off of this?

     I was floored to see how the female co-workers I worked with … when we were in our early 20s were into all this porno stuff too. Was I square! I look back and I’m glad I’m old fashion … didn’t go down that road and am glad I didn’t venture into the dark. There is nothing romantic about it … absolutely nothing.

     Peace!

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 2:59pm

174. Stargazer says:

     THE MONSTER? ha ha ha ha ha. Sorry, can’t help laughing at some of these ridiculous S’s. You know, sex, sometimes just for the sake of sex, can be satisfying in its own right. It’s a normal human need. I personally wouldn’t mind porn, except that most of it is just so bad. Normal humans (and especially women) are wired to bond emotionally through sex, whether it’s good or bad. This is why we have to guard ourselves so much with men and really make them prove themselves. I am learning this the hard way.

     One of the reasons NC is so necessary is that it takes a while (months) for the bond to wear off. At that point you can see the S more clearly for what he or she is.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:03pm

175. Healing Heart says:

     Wini - that makes so much sense. What I don’t get, is how some women and men say that they had “great” sex with an S. I don’t know how anyone could have great sex with someone who is empty? Well, I guess I thought I did in the beginning - but it became so empty and unfulfilling and, well, sad and demeaning.

     You’ve been on this site for a little while, Wini. Haven’t you seen people talking about “great” sex with their ex-S? I’m asking because I’m really curious about it, and am comforted, in some ways, that Justabouthealed had similar experiences. Though I wouldn’t wish them on her or anyone.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:05pm

176. BloggerT7165 says:

     There is an old saying that I think might go well here:

     ~The Wolves Within~
     An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a schoolmate who had done him an injustice, “Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt a great hate for those that have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times.”
     He continued, “It is as if there are two wolves inside me; one is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way.
     “But the other wolf, ah! He is full of anger. The littlest thing will set him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing.
     “Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit.”
     The boy looked intently into his Grandfather’s eyes and asked, “Which one wins, Grandfather?”
     The Grandfather smiled and said, “The one I feed, son, the one I feed.”
     ~ Author Unknown ~ (has been attributed to Shaw though)

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:13pm

177. Wini says:

     Healing Heart: It all comes down to freedom of choice! Anyone can view a naked body … how are they viewing it? From the aspect that the human body is beautiful? Or from another aspect of darkness?

     Same goes with the love making with your past relationship? What was your mind telling you during those times? Remember, you are not the one that is screwed up and can’t love. So I suspect you made love to your EX. I’m sorry he’s too selfish and focused on whatever vices he’s focused on … to slow down and smell the roses!

     Peace to your heart and soul … and don’t be so hard on yourself.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:21pm

178. BloggerT7165 says:

     The sociopath makes a choice to feed the bad wolf and so it becomes his/her world. It becomes their reality and their norm. And the more they feed it the more they become it.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:30pm

179. Healing Heart says:

     I think that’s right - I was “making love” and thinking he was too - I assume that other people are positive and their intentions good and loving. I guess when other people blog about good sex with their exes - they are saying that THEY, themselves were passionate in a positive and loving way. The ex S probably was not (if they are an S, they are not capable). But maybe they are still imagining him to have been to make the memory betters? I think that is dangerous - I can’t speak for others, but i know that I need to see my relationship with him for the reality of what it was - I spent far too much time conjuring up false fantasies and ignoring ugly realities.

     So, I WAS making love, He, was not, however, and eventually, my projection that he was doing so thinned out and the fantasy evaporated. He was probably never lovemaking.

     But, the positive thing is that I WAS, and I AM capable of lovemaking. The next partner (when I am ready) will be someone who is capable of truly making love - not faking.

     I will become better at teasing apart what is real, and what is fantasy, what I am projecting on someone else.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:31pm

180. Healing Heart says:

     Hey BloggerT - that sounds right, and its so sad, isn’t it? I gotta keep feeding my good wolf and stay the hell away from the big bad, well-fed, wolves out there.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:32pm

181. BloggerT7165 says:

     I agree it is sad. It goes back to my thing about how a person ties their shoes. By the time people are adults they have “fed” their shoe wolf a certain way over and over and over to the point that they can only tie their shoes in one way. In fact they often do it without even looking or actively thinking about it. Yet if they try to tie them in a different way (say opposite of how they do it now) they find it anywhere from annoying to extremely stressful. So goes the sociopath with their deeds.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:40pm

182. pb says:

     “Healing Heart says:

     Wini - that makes so much sense. What I don’t get, is how some women and men say that they had “great” sex with an S. I don’t know how anyone could have great sex with someone who is empty? Well, I guess I thought I did in the beginning - but it became so empty and unfulfilling and, well, sad and demeaning.

     You’ve been on this site for a little while, Wini. Haven’t you seen people talking about “great” sex with their ex-S? I’m asking because I’m really curious about it, and am comforted, in some ways, that Justabouthealed had similar experiences. Though I wouldn’t wish them on her or anyone.

     Healing Heart says:

     Oops - sorry, wrong blog on the last post”

     HH
     Wrong thread but so what!
     I had a great sex life with my S…fantastic even. That was one of my stumbling blocks in separating myself from it all. We had a genuine chemistry which was an added bonus for him. I suppose because I didn’t know I was dealing with an S until a couple of weeks ago, I was able to enjoy it still.
     Now, when I look at him…well, it’s best described as a train wreck, a science project, or an aberration of humanity, that I can’t turn my eyes away from. Now that I know, I want to know everything I can.
     My problem became that for him, sex made all the issues go away. It made everything all better and wiped the slate clean in his head - and not at all for me.
     I reeled him back in four months ago because of this chemistry, and that I knew he wasn’t strong enough to say “no”.
     I needed to understand what the hell happened to me, us, and our life together.
     So, we carried on in a non-exclusive, bed-buddy, relationship, where I was told to not tell anyone we were together…long enough for me to figure it out.
     I know the mantra of NC, but I HAD to make something make sense, and would most certainly have danced with death had I not hung around him long enough to figure it out. I couldn’t go on crying like I had for 15 months.
     My doctor and therapist discouraged me and felt that I was disrespecting myself, and I was, but I knew this. They have seen the change in me during the last few weeks and now agree with my motivation to continue hanging around with him.
     I now have recorded 7-8 hours of every, full of lies, phone call between us on my land line, and every cell bill he’s had for our entire time together. I have the hotel bills, and finally it all makes sense. It’s scary, but it makes sense.
     All because he can’t say no.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:47pm

183. Wini says:

     OK LF KIDS, here’s what the experts say about the subject:

     _______________

     For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

     James 3:16

     ________________

     Have you heard of a “gateway drug”? The idea is that some drugs lead to other, more harmful and deadly drugs. Before the person knows it, the drug they started with opens them up to a whole new world of drugs they never thought they would do.

     James is warning us that envy and selfish ambition are gateway behaviors to much worse things. We might think being envious is no big deal, that it only affects our lives and that we can control it. But eventually, our envy will reach out and begin to affect the lives of those around us. When we become consumed with our own desires, we elevate our wants above the needs of others. And ultimately, you’ll no longer care if you hurt others, as long as you get what you want.

     Don’t be fooled into thinking that a little envy or selfish ambition is good motivation for advancing your career or financial status. Those thoughts will always lead to disorder and open the gateway to even more destructive behaviors. Instead of being consumed by your own desires, replace those thoughts with prayer, and ask God to show you how to help meet the needs of others rather than doing whatever it takes to meet your own.

     By Ed and Lisa Young

     A Prayer for Today

     Dear Lord, Help my motivation to serve you be strong enough to overcome any selfish desires or envy that may be hidden in my heart. Please flush those destructive behaviors out of my life and help me be more focused on meeting the needs of others. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

     PEACE everyone, peace!

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:54pm

184. justabouthealed says:

     HH- I was right there with you in assuming that other people are positive and their intentions good and loving. I had the hardest time ….after 40 years of thinking of him as a guy who was too good for me, and that is why he dumped me at 15 (WRONG…he was psycho then too)….in moving him from the “good guy” column to the “bad guy” column and keeping him there. I rationalized, I thought I didn’t understand, I thought I needed to give him another chance, I thought I needed to be forgiving, I thought I had to be gracious, I thought it was right to be so loving and unconditional in my love, I thought once I said “I love you” that I had to keep on loving no matter what.

     Even this Christmas I was placating to a family member who is abusive. IF I DIDN’T LEARN MY LESSON AFTER CRYING FOR MORE THAN A YEAR, WHAT WILL IT TAKE?

     Blogger, I’m so used to tieing everyone else’s shoes, that it feels very strange to even worry about whether my own shoes are tied or not!!!

     Once when I was physically attacked by a stranger, even when naked, I was still being gracious, like “do you realize it looks like you are going to rape me, and I’m sure that must not be what you are intending, can I help you get a little bit more clarity here about how to express yourself more appropriately?” I SWEAR!!! Finally I woke up and started swinging! I fought him off. But my first incliniation is to be so kind, so gracious, so willing to take the blame.

     I have to be REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT WHO I GIVE MY HEART TOO. Even my loving husband says he knows he could flatten me emotionally with just a few words. But he NEVER does. In fact, he has NEVER criticized me, he is so accepting and so loving.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 3:57pm

185. justabouthealed says:

     pb—totally understand. I think sometimes our hearts know best what we need. If we are listening with a clear head. I’m so glad you have clarity about it all now, that is such a relief isn’t it?

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:03pm

186. pb says:

     It’s funny too that since we have been non-exclusive, he’s been a bit more open. That’s how I came to see what was up. I listened to all sorts of other women calling, counted his Cialis when he was clearly lying, and once he was busted, I got to watch him lie to them on the phone. It was amazing.
     Sex, for about six weeks between Oct/Nov had become different. It was clearly an effort for him to stay interested. I knew he was investing quite a lot of effort in one of his latest accomplishments (the sister of another woman he was with while we lived together!) and suggested that we stop if he wasn’t into it.
     He swore he just changed his technique, but I told him I wasn’t buying it, I know him too well.
     I did however make sure that the last time we were together was a mutually satisfying experience. I absolutely did not want the last time we were together to be some distracted, mechanical effort for him. I wanted a good memory of it.
     And that’s where I left it two weeks ago.
     He’s now taking her, and his daughter to Vegas for New Years - all on credit of course. Too funny!

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:05pm

187. lostingrief says:

     well, guess i’ll throw my 2 cents in.
     the sex with my ex-s/p/n was incredible. even after 20 years, every time i knew i would see him, my heart would pound. we were extremely compatible sexually and i trusted him completely in bed. we had our wild times, but in the last year, i was less and less able to have an orgasm with him. it’s like my body knew something was very wrong. the mechanics were still amazing, but my body and my emotions couldn’t connect with what he was doing and saying any more. the last six months i couldn’t feel anything sexually. now, i feel like i’m dead from the waist down. another non-gift from him, i guess!
     christmas was a terrible day for me. i missed him so much. but i didn’t call and i tried to remember that none of what he was to me was real. it’s still incomprehensible.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:05pm

188. Healing Heart says:

     Sex with my ex S was amazing in the beginning - at least I thought so. From the very start of our relationship till way past the end, he said it was great sex, and thought we had a wonderful connection. He would ask “how can you walk away from such great sex?” The further away I get from him, and the more time that has passed since we last had sex, the more I see how empty it was. And, in the end, it really felt rote, mechanical, and like a porno. Maybe if someone were watching (God, I hope that wasn’t the case) they would say it looked exciting and like great sex. But it was just so empty. I have a great appreciation for sex - I love a great sex life with a loving partner. But sex with an S is just so empty and impersonal. I bet he had sex with every woman the same way.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:15pm

189. BloggerT7165 says:

     In the same vein as Wini’s post :):

     We are what we think.
     All that we are arises with our thoughts.
     With our thoughts, we make our world. - Buddha

     On life’s journey
     Faith is nourishment,
     Virtuous deeds are a shelter,
     Wisdom is the light by day and
     Right mindfulness is the protection by night.
     If a man lives a pure life nothing can destroy him;
     If he has conquered greed nothing can limit his freedom.
     - Buddha

     Believe nothing merely because you have been told it.
     Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher.
     But whatever, after due examination and analysis,
     you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide. - Buddha

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:16pm

190. Wini says:

     Lostingrief: Your body isn’t dead from the waist down (LOL) … your mind came to the realization of TRUTH that your EX was a selfish individual. Once you realize another is totally selfish … it takes the wind out of your sails … so to speak! Imagine how great sex will be with a person who isn’t self absorbed and selfish and understands how to be loving and kind to their one and only partner … YOU!

     Peace.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:20pm

191. pb says:

     LIG
     I feel the same way, exactly. Even though we always had good sex, after a while I became cautious and a bit resentful that he could jump up out of bed and act like life was all roses between us. It made me sad to be with him and feel somewhat detached from it.
     I spent Christmas day alone, and I liked it.
     I talked to the first sister two days prior, and even though she suggested we not tell him we’d spoken, she just had to call him on Christmas eve.
     He was furious at me…that two of his “victims” had actually gotten together and we ruined his Christmas eve.
     He resorted to childish remarks, “You’re life is really gonna suck”, “You must like being alone”, and “You’ll never know what reality is…”. It was quite laughable. He had a glow on and was talking in circles in an attempt to confuse me, but he only ended up sounding really childish.
     In the end, he resorted to saying, twice, “I was going to pick you up tomorrow and bring you down here for Christmas day and dinner, but after tonight…”
     As if I don’t know that all 4-6 of his other women have children and families to be with…the poor boy didn’t have anyone else to play with and I was supposed to be thankful for the opportunity to be second fiddle to all of them.
     He’s the one who has to get drunk to hang around with himself - now that’s a life that sucks! He’s the one who can’t stand to be alone with himself. He has no concept of reality…
     I had to laugh, and sent him a scorching email. I don’t think I’ll be hearing from him. He doesn’t want me anywhere near his world now. I’m a threat to his charade.
     LIG, I spent 15 months stuck in what seems to be where you’re at. The only thing that saved me was finding this board. Hang in there. The spinning world does slow down.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:27pm

192. lostingrief says:

     pb: i’m doing pretty well. 20 years of loving him and 4 months NC. i don’t cry too often now. i just get really lonely for the shiny disco ball that he was. i’m a very intimate and sensual person, and i now have no outlet for that very important side of me.
     i guess i’m still climbing out of the hole he left me in. it bothers me to know he moved on so easily. that maybe he’s treating his new pregnant gf better than he ever treated me. but that doesn’t matter. none of it does.
     what’s done is done, and i just have to get to the other side of this loneliness. he brought excitement to my world (good or bad, it was excitement nonetheless), and the void is still gaping.
     i will never speak to him again because i know that if i ever do, it will all be the same … lies and manipulation. i don’t think he was ever capable of speaking truth. the level of deception is still mind-blowing. i not only had to give him up, but his family, his son, and our mutual friends as well. i left everything behind in order to have NC.
     as i move into this new year, i pray that i can slough off what remains of him in my heart. i don’t want to hate him, but i do. how can one possibly go from being someone’s world, to being their refuse in a matter of months. it hurts.
     but i am healing. i am stronger. i am happier.
     … and so it goes.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:50pm

193. lostingrief says:

     while we’re on the subject, any one have an answer for this one:
     why is it that he ALWAYS used a condom with me, but got another female pregnant in a matter of months?
     was he trying to protect me? did he WANT to get her pregnant? he knew i was completely loyal to him and that his new gf had a boyfriend! what’s up with this???

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 5:00pm

194. pb says:

     HH’
     “I bet he had sex with every woman the same way.”

     When my S did his cute little thing of batting his eyes at me a few weeks ago, I looked at him and said, “You do that to all of us, don’t you?”
     “Oh yeah, you bet!” was his response.

     When I left my rings next to his bed the last time we spent the night together, I showed up unannounced after work the next day to pick them up. I figured, rightly, it was too early for anyone else to be there.
     He had the pillowcases from “my” side of the bed in the dryer, and had the blankets pulled back, removing my hair from the bed.
     “Destroying the evidence?” I laughed.
     He mumbled something about perfume.
     I laughed to myself because I noticed he forgot to throw “my” robe in too (I suppose I should say, “our”, seeing as there were a few of us using the thing).

     I’m probably the only person on the planet who knows what he is, and he seems to be able to let his guard down with me to some degree now (or, at least until I pissed him off on Christmas eve - LOL).
     If asked outright about specifics, he denies or lies, but he has called himself a “Monster”, and an “Abusive piece of s**t”. He’s said “Even though it’s not who I am, it’s inside me, so it is who I am, and I know I can never live with a woman again.” “I don’t know why you’re upset. It was a year ago”, and “Someone poked the bear and you just happened to come along at the wrong time”

     Most of that was said during a conversation on Dec 15th. I shook for an hour afterward and we even talked about in it a call later. When asked if he aspired to anything different, he replied coldly, “No. It’s what I am and I don’t want to be anything I’m not, and that’s that.” It completely blew my mind. He didn’t understand my shock, “I know what I am. I’ve dealt with it. You need to deal with it”
     Part of me thinks he was just paying lip service, but when I asked him if he was being sarcastic, he said, “No, I’m being truthful.”
     He didn’t hit his ex-wife, but he gradually became a horrible drunk. I think she perhaps had a level of control in the relationship that no one will ever have again. He claims to have spent tens of thousands on jewelery for her, a hundred thousand on unsuccessful in-vitro, she’s a “psychobitch” who used him…he did “everything” for her. She had 3-6 boyfriends (depending on whether he’d had 3-6 beers)…blah, blah, blah.
     “She stuck the knife in and twisted it and you just happened to come along at the wrong time”
     And, she did have a, one, boyfriend. She stuck around long enough to get her company off the ground and left with half of the house after 22 years. Sadly, she now won’t deal with their daughters issues because it will mean going up against him - she wants nothing to do with the man…and the daughter is on her own. Mom doesn’t ask.
     But, I digress.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 5:27pm

195. lostingrief says:

     pb: my ex used to tell me that his evil side was ”right around the corner.” it was a joke between us, in that he could turn from a loving person to ‘the beast’ in less than a second if he didn’t get his way.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 5:39pm

196. pb says:

     Mine refused to use a condom. That’s pretty much how this all started for me - the light at the end of the tunnel.
     He said he was seeing other women, but denied he was having sex with them and consequently didn’t feel we needed to use protection.
     There were clearly at least four of us and I wasn’t buying it. I counted his Cialis weekly for six weeks and when I told him, he was shocked, but he fessed up to the second sister and whipped out a couple of condoms for when he was with her.
     Problem with that was that the same two condoms were still there weeks later and I knew she had been there.
     He was angry with me for looking at his pecker pills, and I told him that if he had “put a lid on it” in the first place, none of this would be my business…I honestly wouldn’t have looked.
     “I never know what you’re gonna do” he said with mistrust and some dismay.
     “Yup You’re right. That’s why you shouldn’t lie to me”
     The man had used 24 doses of the stuff in a six week period!

     Oh, even though I’d already told him I’d counted his pills, I didn’t clear his scanner after I scanned his prescription in Oct. (I kept a running tab on the scanned page). He called me and wanted to know why there was an image of his scrip in the scanner when he went to use it…Oops!

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 5:45pm

197. nic says:

     Well yesterday I wrote about my husband coming over and playing with our child and his stepdaughter. He asked when he left if he could get our baby today at about 4:00 because he has family coming. I said yes but all night and today I was thinking about if I would really let her go because he never comes and gets her on a weekend.

     Well, it is 5:30 and I have not heard from him. Why am I surprised? It is like he has no feelings for our daughter. He has no problem spending money on people. Our last Christmas together he bought me $1,000 earrings and a coach purse even though he had a pregnant mistress at the time. She got a new coach purse.

     So my husband bought our daughter a $250.00 barbie jeep, elmo live, a digital camera and some other very nice things. I don’t know what that is about. He pays me over $1700.00/mo. in child support.

     So did he forget about our daughter? I don’t understand it all but I guess it is hard to understand a sociopath. Here I was stressing about if I would let her go and he doesn’t even call. He has been off days here and there for the holidays and have not once come to get her early. He usually picks her up after work and spends about 2 1/2 hours a week with her.

     I wish I could go NC altogether but it just isn’t possible with a child.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 6:41pm

198. pb says:

     Nic,
     Mine spends incredible amounts of money on his daughter, primarily to impress and confuse her - not that he would admit to either. He “loves” her…That also happens to be why he yells at her for hours or days on end.
     She’s only 10 now, but spoke up to him last May, and he was furious. I can only imagine what it’s going to be like when she finds her voice, gets her own life, or starts dating. It scares me.
     He called her down to witness the assault, and stopped fighting long enough to make me look like the aggressor.
     How sick is that? To call your 9 year old to witness a scene.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 6:50pm

199. pb says:

     We’re all merely possessions to them - remember that.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 6:51pm

200. James says:

     “~The Wolves Within~
     An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a schoolmate who had done him an injustice, “Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt a great hate for those that have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times.”
     He continued, “It is as if there are two wolves inside me; one is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way.
     “But the other wolf, ah! He is full of anger. The littlest thing will set him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all the time, for no reason. He cannot think because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing.
     “Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit.”
     The boy looked intently into his Grandfather’s eyes and asked, “Which one wins, Grandfather?”
     The Grandfather smiled and said, “The one I feed, son, the one I feed.”
     ~ Author Unknown ~ (has been attributed to Shaw though)”

     Thanks BloggerT7165!

     This is so cool and true to life! How I can relate and how much I try hard to feed only the good wolf in me but also know of my “bad hungry wolf”…

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 9:34pm

201. James says:

     Strange but before I learned about what a pathological liar was I never understood why she needed to lie so much. Even my children knew she lied continually even when the truth would have work much better for her. Because both the children and I walked on eggshells around her we adopted a way of dealing with her lies by agreeing with her and telling her over and over again saying.. “okay whatever _____”. At least by agreeing with her we avoided her verbal abuse. But yes it is true how they “believe” their own lies. I understand today how by her continue lying she can blame others which then allow her to not accept any responsibility for her own actions.

     The reason I stay with the relationship at first was because I did love her but then I stay longer because I loved my children even more. So I guess I can say I stay because of love. Having my children with me today and not being with her (Thank you God) I feel that love did prevail in the end even over her own dysfunctional crazy reasoning and all her lies..

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 10:16pm

202. pb says:

     When I was packing to move, my S came home and barked at me “…I don’t remember you having that many plants either!”
     He had already started going through my stuff so I was going downstairs to get away from him and let him cool down. “I’m sure you don’t” was my response. He hated that. There was nothing he could say.
     I was always walking on eggshells with him and had mastered the minimalist response.
     I also noticed that he would exaggerate things; five minutes became an “hour”, a few times became “always”. It made it impossible to have a healthy debate, never mind an argument. He’d go off on some nonsensical tangent or contradict himself.
     Eventually, he would argue with me because I was giving him “attitude” in refusing to engage in an argument. I couldn’t win for losing, and he would follow me around the house to various rooms to continue arguing. It was crazy! He’d go in circles, lose it and yell or bang his fists if I dared to poke a hole in his story. Then he’d declare “end of discussion!”. I would walk away then the silly man would follow me to continue. It was absolutely crazy…and it was always HIS house, “I can go wherever I want. It’s MY house.”
     He actually ran me out of the house on a number of nights. I slept in the neighbours sauna or in my truck a few times each, and spent many nights sitting in my truck or down in the basement, waiting for him to pass out.
     One night the neighbour offered me a room after watching S’s jealous outburst in his own living room about my diaries from two years before we’d started dating. He’d gone home to get cigarettes, I thought, and got into the computer while there and came back rip-snorting jealous.
     I thanked the neighbour, but told him that if I stayed there S would for sure think we’d done something. I just waited for him to pass out again.
     His drinking was crazy and his boundaries were all screwed up even when sober. He enjoyed humiliating me with his social inappropriateness, overly affectionate, overtly sexual, or standing in a neighbours living room yelling at me about guys I dated years before him. He had no problem involving children or starting an argument in front of other people.
     And yes, they lie when they don’t even need to. I can only chalk that up to the feeling of control they must be getting when they lie.
     Although there were red flags prior, the first three months of living with him were pleasant and uneventful. And then all hell broke loose for the next six months. I suppose I should be thankful it was quick, but it was nasty and ugly.

     I mean, we had agreed we were not exclusive for this last round, and he still lied about the other women. It was stupid.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 11:21pm

203. Wini says:

     James, she lies because she’s greedy … greedy to have life always go her way.

     I’m glad you are away from a selfish, self absorbed, self centered person. The sooner society understands that they are operating out of total greed, the sooner we can keep them at arms length. The more they are ousted from society, the sooner they should go start to seek professional help to learn how to be a productive member of society. It’s because society in general makes excuses for them still, is the reason it is so rampant in society today. Enough is enough.

     Peace. I’m glad you are healing from the likes of her.

     Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 11:27pm

204. Healing Heart says:

     pb - I think they always lie if they think the lie is a better response. Even if the two of you agreed to NOT be exclusive, he knows that saying he is not having sex with other women would make him look better and be less likely to cause any conflict. These guys (and women) will say whatever it is they think is the best response, with no consideration, whatsoever, for the truth. And your guy, if he’s like my ex, was so used to lying about women he was having sex with, that he just did so automatically.

     My ex S went through a lot of Cialis, too. He was in his early forties, and in good shape, so I don’t think he needed it for a “normal” sex life. But because he wanted to have sex with so many different women in so short a time period, he needed to take it because no man in his forties can have that much sex.

     Who are these doctors who are writing endless scripts for these guys? Don’t they sense something is up.

     My ex S also insisted on not using a condom. He swore up and down that he wasn’t having sex with anyone else. I told him how important it was that I maintain a healthy lifestyle and not put myself at risk - and he, of course, was adamant that he was not having sex with anyone else. He was having a lot of sex with a lot of women - some of them women who he met online - Craigs list of adultfriendfinder - so these are women who are willing to have unprotected sex with a stranger. I’m so lucky I came out of all of this without an STD.

     Yes, they are selfish, self-absorbed, and totally without conscience. I still shake my head, in utter disbelief, when I think about his behavior. I’m learning more and more from this site, and other resources, about Sociopaths, and he is classic. And he does what they do - lie, cheat, steal, behave in an outrageously promiscuous manner, and generally behave like a monster. Even though I know he’s an S, and does exactly what an S does, I’m still shocked at it, and still think “How could he have done this??” I guess I have to accept that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding. I just want to stop feeling pain around his behaviors. I know I shouldn’t take it personally - but dammit…the man I thought I was madly in love with, the man who I thought was my soulmate, betrayed me over and over and over again - while I had taken his children into my home, while I took care of him in every way. How can you not be hurt?

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 12:32am

205. Healing Heart says:

     Nic, I’m sorry your ex S didn’t call about your daughter. That’s so sad. They are so unreliable, and can be counted on to do whatever they want to do in the moment - with no regard for anyone else whatsoever, including children. I am so sad for my ex S’s children. He used them like toys - when he wanted to play with them he would, but he would ditch them in a second if he had an opportunity to have sex with a stranger. These guys (and women) will do exactly what they want whenever they want. Their promises are worth nothing. Their word is worth nothing. My ex S never came through with anything he “promised” to me or his kids. He never came through with anything unselfish. Sometimes it looked like he was being kind or generous, but in hindsight I can see that it was always self-serving. He would never do something for someone else if it was inconvenient for him.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 12:38am

206. Stargazer says:

     About the lies….I agree with HH. They are so focused on you and how to manipulate you that everything out of their mouth is what they think you want to hear. I remember my ex was visiting and we were having a conversation. He happened to be staring in the direction of the window, which I didn’t even notice. I heard a noise and turned around to look out the window. My ex immediately said “I wasn’t looking at any women!” (!!!!!) My unit faces the pool, so all summer long there are half naked people parading around in viewing distance. It had never even occurred to me that he was looking at them. But those words just came out of his mouth because he thought it’s what I wanted to hear. When he did come to visit me at the pool one day, he made it a point not to even glance in the direction of any other woman. He was so focused on me, it was creepy. I mean, when you’re walking around the pool area, you can’t help noticing people around you. He made it his life work for those few months to be everything he thought I wanted him to be. From the first day we met, he tried to be everything I wanted in a man. He even tried to change a very hard-to-change light bulb in my kitchen. I never asked him to do it, and in fact I had scheduled someone else to come and do it. But he insisted. We had just met that day! He also talked about how he wanted to buy me some new snake cages that were very expensive, again, on the first day we met. After I got over the creepiness factor, I thought I’d met the guy of my dreams.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:26am

207. henry says:

     How many opportunities have these people had in their lives for a good relationship? More than all of us here together. They want what they see in us, until they have it, then they are bored with it. Life is a constant drama filled conquest for them. They leave us for stimulation. They will never settle for one person - that is just too boring for them. Their minds are constantly in drive - looking for the next best thing - always thinking the next one will be the one. I feel like a misfit for wanting something as boring as a monogomous relationship.. What’s wrong with wanting one horney man to spend the rest of what’s left of my life with? Seem’s like it just about the sex with them, performance - they don’t make love - they dont have a clue how to do that. What in the hell is wrong with me? Seem’s like I am the one that is delusional and out of touch with reality. Love is above the waist isn’t it? Sorry bloggers - I went out to the club’s tonite - a total waste of gas…

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:57am

208. Indigoblue says:

     Mornin SunShine!
     Nope , I did the same thing, offered Him a Life or at least a Home base.
     He says, I wish I could do what you do! What I do is relax kickback , enjoy peace!

     How are you suposed to enjoy sex if there is no emotional bond there? If it only means something to one person!

     Henry did you get my Christmass present to you? I sent a blow up Chris P doll! :)~ LOVE JJ

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:10am

209. henry says:

     funny I posted the above post then scrolled up - had no idea you all were discussing sex - yeah I love sex - wild to mild - but that can be shared - my X couldn’t make eye contact during sex or he would go limp - so I made it a point not to look him in the eye - he had this disconnected look in his face, like he was in pain - I tried to show him that sex can be a spiritual experience - something special shared between two people in love - there was one big problem tho - he was not in love

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:30am

210. henry says:

     no indi I did not get your xmas present - I was hoping you would fall down my chimney -

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:33am

211. Healing Heart says:

     Good Morning everybody! I love logging on and seeing what SG, Henry, and Indy wrote since I last posted last night. I read your posts and think “yes, yes, yes.” I’ve said this a thousand times, but its so comforting talking to you guys.

     Yes, Indy, how are you supposed to enjoy sex if there’s no emotional bond? It seems to me that it is fundamentally impossible to have really good, passionate, sex with an S. I think that we THINK its good because we have so much desperate longing for this man, and so thrilled that we have his attention, that our nerve endings are on fire, our psyches are in overdrive, and we are so turned on my our own desperation and longing that we think its good sex. But its really just emotions and desperation in overdrive. I thought sex was great with S for a while, until I learned the real truth about it (and that took a while, I had significant denial), but when I allowed myself to really see what he was - I realized the sex was empty, mechanical, and exploitative.

     Henry - I think you are dead-on with the “they get bored thing.” My ex S seemed to think I was the most fascinating person, and was riveted by everything I said. (Boy did I eat that up - once I got over the “creepiness” factor, like SG). But then in a few months, it seemed like just being around me was tedious for him. Like I was so horribly boring that it was a drain to be with me. And I found myself working harder and harder to keep him entertained. I would save up funny stories from my day, or collect interesting tidbits of current events or trivia through the day to dazzle him with later. And what would he do for me? NOTHING. I was trying so hard, it makes me angry.

     And SG, your pool story is so much like so many stories I have!!!! He would lie to me about things that he didn’t need to - like he was lying defensively all the time. Once he came over (before he moved in with me), and I complimented his shirt. He said “I have no idea who gave this shirt to me.” Obviously it was a gift from a woman. I would have had no idea of this - but he knew it, and lied automatically. Another time he pulled a long hair off of his sweater (I assumed it was mine) and said “I have no idea how this hair got on my sweater.” I never would have thought the hair was anyone’s but mine (until the end when I woke up), but he was always guilty of something (though never feeling guilty), and always lying. He didn’t need to, but it was his M.O.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 10:14am

212. justabouthealed says:

     Healing Heart:

     I did the exact same thing….save up funny stories from my day, in fact I pushed myself to do more exciting things so I’d have better stories!

     So sad all the time and energy I wasted on him. …

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 11:17am

213. Stargazer says:

     HH: “I have no idea who gave me this shirt.” “I have no idea how this hair got on me”. ROFLMAO!!!!!! That seriously cracked me up. I can see my ex giving the shirt line to his wife because I bought him a t-shirt from a concert he was supposed to go to with me. That line “I have no idea where this (fill in - shirt, scar, hickey, etc.) came from” probably comes directly out of “Sociopathy 101″.

     Yes, I think after the fascination of dating the most popular person on the reptile site wore off, my ex probably got bored with me. He probably had someone else (besides his wife) on the line but still wanted to string me along just in case he was bored. As painful as it was, I can’t imagine if I’d let it continue past the 2-1/2 months where I’d be. My self-esteem is already in the gutter right now.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 11:41am

214. Stargazer says:

     LIG, HH, pb, et al: I think it is possible to have great sex and chemistry with a person who doesn’t care about you, because your mind fills in all the blanks. “If he can be this great a lover, surely he must love me.” “This must mean something to him”. Some of this depends on our personality type and how we approach relationships. I have 4 planets in Scorpio (including Venus) and have a very deeply sensual/sexual side. I have been attracted to more than my fair share of bad boys and had amazing chemistry with them, only to feel betrayed and abandoned when I don’t hear from them for months. This is my personal hell that I hope to change some day. The irony is that the S seemed so opposite of the guys I usually go for. For me, I don’t need to love a man or have him love me to have great sex. But there must at least be the promise of it. With the S, the sex happened a little too soon. But I allowed it because I believed the intimacy would deepen and our sex life would be incredible. In short, I trusted him to stick around and to be what he said he was. If he had been an honest person, this is exactly what would have happened; the sex would have gotten better and better.

     I have had many “promising” affairs that just didn’t pan out. I always wondered why the guy didn’t want to explore intimacy in the same way I did. I always took it personally. Now I realize it has to do with the type of guys I pick. And the lack of self-respect for sleeping with them too soon, if I’m being brutally honest.

     I also feel numb right now, sexually and emotionally (I believe those two are tied). I think I have so much anger inside of me over all the betrayals. They seem to pile up, but I never got the lesson. This recent S was like the wake up call. Deal with the abandonment/betrayal issues. They seem everywhere for me right now.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 12:10pm

215. justabouthealed says:

     Well, that may be true, Stargazer, that you need to deal with the abandonment/betrayal issues….it was/is true for me. But we need to remind ourselves that without bad guys, no problem. (Of course now we know there are bad guys so we need to work on those issues).

     My husband and I mailed out wedding invitations 2 WEEKS after our first date, were married 5 weeks after the first date. Dumb? Stupid? Risky? Of course!!! But it didn’t turn out to be a disaster…in fact it turned out wonderful, especilaly now, nearly 38 years later, we finally have it TOTALLY right….. becuase HE IS NOT A BAD GUY. Here I am, with my issues, but I’m not getting hurt by him because HE IS NOT A BAD GUY. He is a loving man, kind to everyone including the waitress, and capable of great intimacy.

     The real problem is THE BAD GUYS. But we have the ability to respond…responsibility….and we can arm ourselves against the BAD GUYS by dealing with our betrayal bond issues, etc.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 12:54pm

216. Stargazer says:

     Thanks again for the support, j.a.h. Good point. I have had some wonderful guys in my life who would have never abandoned me. I was the one who sent them away.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 1:00pm

217. lostingrief says:

     star: wow! i could have written every single word of your post. none of my ‘relationships’ ever wanted to explore intimacy on any deep level either. i always blamed myself for not being ‘this’ enough or ‘that’ enough. it is about the type of guy we pick.
     without the ‘excitement’ of great sex, i always felt empty. the ‘nice’ guys were the ones i dumped. the s/p/n’s were the ones who dumped me and who i couldn’t get enough of.
     but this last one did me in for real.
     i am numb too, and as i said in an earlier post, i feel dead from the waist down. and i think that is exactly what i need right now, because while my sensual/sexual side is alive in there somewhere, i need to settle in to the emotional (instead of just intellectual) understanding that spiritual excitement, and socially-consc(ience) excitement are equally valid and important. bottom line, stop giving myself over to those men who are one- dimensional … or in the case of our pod-lunatics … non-dimensional!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 1:42pm

218. lostingrief says:

     star: i just pulled your self-esteem out of the gutter, washed it, rinsed it, dried it, folded it nice and neat, and i am now handing it back to you. happy new year.
     you, my dear, are an amazing and beautiful child of god. the ’snake whore’ you were with didn’t deserve you for one second (let alone months).
     now, repeat after me: i am full of self love; i am perfect just as i am!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 1:47pm

219. lostingrief says:

     HH: “i found myself working harder and harder to keep him entertained.” amen.
     and isn’t that some exhausting shit!!???
     i ain’t gonna lie. i miss him a lot sometimes. but the energy i’ve saved in just the last four months could generate power for a small city.
     speaking of lying when ya’ don’t have to … check this out.
     my ex told me he had found a kitten in the woods behind his house. he said it was meowing … all alone. scared, cold, frightened. he searched for it for 10 minutes and then rescued it. he brought it in to his house and helped his kids wash it and dry it and give it warm milk.
     a week later i was in his car and found adoption papers for said kitten. when i asked him what THAT was about, he said he wanted me to think he was a hero.
     what a ZERO!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 1:52pm

220. Healing Heart says:

     Yes! That is some exhausting shit!!!!!!! So friggin’ exhausting!!!! I was so exhausted and drained by the time I left him that I felt like I hardly had energy to do anything.

     I worried about how friggin’ happy he was all the time, and did everything from talk politics to wearing uncomfortable lacey lingerie with underwire that poked my skin and thongs that rode up my ass…..all to keep his sorry ass entertained. AND HE WAS SUCH A LOSER. What in the hell was I doing putting all my life force into trying to engage this loser??!!

     It’s really nice not to be worrying about how he’s doing anymore and to be worrying about myself, instead.

     And I miss him too, LG. I hate it that I miss him. But I do. Thankfully its decreased a lot, and continues to decrease with every day of NC.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 1:59pm

221. Stargazer says:

     LIG: HUGS!!! I cannot get over how much you guys are helping me today. the “snake whore” HAHAHAHAHA. I wish I would ever have the opportunity to call him that! I’m glad your lying POS didn’t take your sense of humor away from you. If he did, it certainly came back.

     Hey, I just had an idea….since we both feel numb from the waist down, we could pretend we have a head injury and play the army for millions! (This is what my S is doing, pretending he has no feeling from the waist down).

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:14pm

222. Stargazer says:

     I once had a major crush on the guy who founded my massage school and was one of my teachers there. He was a brilliant and fascinating man, and we had many things in common. I was his best and brightest student, so he definitely took notice. Our admiration was mutual, but we couldn’t date because a) I was his student, and b) I had a boyfriend (the emotionally unavailable man). Long after the bf and I split and I graduated from massage school, I finally met up with the massage teacher. He had some health issues and had sold the school. He didn’t think he had many more years left to live, which didn’t bother me. After so many years of dreaming about him, we finally had a passionate affair, which, I thought was the beginning of a relationship. Instead, he traveled back and forth to his homes in different states and “looked me up” every 3-6 months. I got sick of it pretty quickly and stopped taking his calls. A year went by and I forgot about him. Then he called me out of the blue one day. I was very angry at him, which he listened to and helped me process. He was moving back to Denver permanently and told me he was sorry he had abandoned me and that he had done some work on his abandonment issues in my absence. He wanted to start dating me. He talked about motorcycle rides to the mountains, taking me to dinner, blah blah blah. He swore there hadn’t been any other women in his life, that he was preoccupied with health issues (this could possibly be true). So he came to visit for a few hours. We did not sleep together but immediately felt a sense of closeness and intimacy. The chemistry was unbelievable and not like anything I had ever experienced. I completely expected him to call me soon after. That was a year and a half ago. I have never heard from him since.

     To say I’ve had bad luck with men is like saying the Titanic had bad luck with an iceberg.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:24pm

223. lostingrief says:

     HH: ROFL …!
     that post was SOOOOO funny. it’s amazing what women do to try to entertain men. if they want thongs up yer ass, let ‘em go to a strip club! geezus, who needs that crap!
     do you think the reason we miss them is because we think they’re happy? honestly, if i thought that he was miserable and treating his new pregnant gf (AND wife) like crap, i wouldn’t miss him AT ALL!!!
     what does that mean?

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:43pm

224. sstiles54 says:

     Isn’t it strange that we all “seemed” to think the intimacy was great at the beginning, yet it just petered out (pun intended) after a short time? Mine couldn’t get enough of me for the first 6 months we were together, then when he had gotten a job (finally) , & worked in a big box store around bunches of other women, all of a sudden, he was too worn out for sex. He even faked heart problems to get out of it. The rest of the time I wasted on him was like this, hot & cold. I couldn’t even remember the last time we had been together when we split, I think close to a year. We all have so many similarities in our lives, it’s as if we all should be related. Sad way to get to know each other, yet only possible with our shared pain. God has a plan for all of us.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:46pm

225. lostingrief says:

     star: ya’ know. i really do think that my equally horrific experiences with men is because i always expect them to have the same sensibilities as women … you know all those amazing qualities that make us more or less superior to them in every way!
     maybe we just need to come to terms with the fact that they are very different beings than we are … sort of a sub-species of women!

     (sorry henry, and indigo and southernman, et al)… you are all exceptions!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:46pm

226. lostingrief says:

     i MUST go for a long walk … it’s 65 degrees out with a great breeze. like an overcast aruba!
     later.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:48pm

227. Wini says:

     lostingrief: It means you have to work on yourself getting centered in a humble way. Have you read Tolle’s book yet? “A New Earth”? Tolle specifically speaks about the ego … how everyone has one (it’s the human condition). He speaks about the Pain Body and how everyone carrys their pain body from their childhoods around with them. He explains how you can rid yourself of the pain body (what we call, someone pushing our buttons) … he explains how to go silent, go in to the “now” … which is to be humble.

     Great read. After you read Tolle … you can go on to Oprah.com … look up her spiritual site … put in Tolle’s name as a search … and listen to his 10 tapes on all ten chapters.

     After you do this … you will not care one way or the other what your EX is doing or not doing. I’d like to suggest this book to all our EXs too … but obviously, they aren’t ready yet to become Spiritually Enlightened.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:52pm

228. Stargazer says:

     LIG, I think it’s partly human nature to think the grass is greener. You are looking at it as, “is he happy?” rather than “is he a good person?”. I’m sure Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer were in a state of celestial bliss when they were killing and chopping all those people up! I’m sure your ex gets some sort of happiness out of being in control or whatever else in his life feeds his ego. It cannot be true happiness when he’s left a wake of destruction behind him. It’s the worst case of denial. This is what is so painful, isn’t it? That we are left struggling, and they go on their merry way whistling a tune as if nothing ever happened. I hate them.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 2:57pm

229. Stargazer says:

     Well, this has been very therapeutic this morning. Thanks for all of you being my therapist until I can afford a real one. I am going out to buy myself one little piece of clothing. I haven’t bought anything like this for myself in so long.
     Peace out,
     StarG

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:01pm

230. Wini says:

     StarG: I don’t know what irked Bundy, but Dahmer killed because he wanted to keep the people he loved with him for ever! That is beyond sad. He apologies to everyone in the court room and he apologized to the family members … he told everyone he didn’t kill for the thrill of killing … and he knew he was sick, he just didn’t know how to stop it. He was abandoned by his parents when they divorced. Both parents assuming the other parent was in touch with Jeffrey. Neither parent realized they had indeed abandoned him … they were too busy licking their own wounds due to their marriage ending.

     His life story is the perfect example that humans don’t know everything … why someone does anything. God knows what was in Jeffrey’s heart when he killed the people he loved.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:06pm

231. Wini says:

     StarG: Good for you … keep the economy flowing!

     Peace.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:10pm

232. justabouthealed says:

     HH and everyone. Well, i’m glad this is an anonymous site because I’m about to make some very embarrassing confessions. NOT ONLY did I get all new underwear, I worked out, I took self-defense courses and broke my toe kick boxing, I took on an exciting second job where I literally risked my life (so impressive you know, such exciting stories to tell!), I had lazer, I had multiple wax jobs (never again!!!), I straightened my teeth, I took up his hobby, I got new lotions and potions, I bought sex toys and books and tapes and magazines for him, I started drinking for him, I read books that he sent me whether I wanted to or not, I drove hours and hours for him, I bought him expensive gifts, I did new things sexually, once without my permission, I got new clothes, new luggage, new purse, made elaborate surprises for him that were very time consuming (like you would not believe!!!!) , I saved his life once he claims (darn!), (actually I supposedly talked him out of suicide when he was about 18, probably just a show), I lent the mega-millionaire money, I stayed in cheap rooms with him, I got nada for my birthday, I emailed him more than a thousand emails I’m sure, and on and on it goes. When I said he was a second job for me, I was not kidding. Now add in all my therapy bills and all the time that takes…..argghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:11pm

233. Healing Heart says:

     Damn, Girl! You are one lotioned & potioned, straight-toothed, waxed and lasered, well-read, well-toned, two-job having, kick-boxing ass-kicker! WOW! I hope you did some of those things for you - not just for him. From now on you do that stuff for YOU, not for him, because you deserve it! You deserve to have all the things and be all the things that you did for him. But do them for yourself because you are awesome!!!

     He doesn’t deserve you. YOU deserve you. You sound like a firecracker! YOU GO GIRL!!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:20pm

234. Stargazer says:

     Justabouthealed,
     Now you have my curiosity about your exciting job where you risked your life? I had one of those too. I wonder if it was the same job?

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:21pm

235. Stargazer says:

     Wini,
     You may be right—I don’t know the details of Jeffrey Dahmer’s story or why he claimed to do what he did. But the point I was trying to make (that maybe didn’t come out right) was that “happiness” for a sociopath is all relative. It is not something we can compare our own happiness to.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:23pm

236. Healing Heart says:

     Oh - screw the wax jobs. Those suck. As do cheap hotel rooms and cheap sex.

     But the good stuff - keep that up! Everything you did that feels good, and not demeaning, DO THAT!! Screw him - he sucks to demand anything of you - but maybe its a good lesson for you to take care of yourself for you sake. Not his.

     And again, leave that waxing bullshit behind. Laser is much better. Wax his ass.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:23pm

237. Wini says:

     StarG: If you read all the past posts … they are all the same, someone did this or that with other women/other men on the side, their EXs took this or that possession of theirs, their EXs got their names on the deeds to this or that house/condo/vacation home/vehicle/whatever it was … the EXs gave them all lip service, the EXs used the children as a pawn to get their way, the EXs didn’t pay child support, the EX had multiple children with multiple partners … nothing I did mattered to the EX … I wasn’t good enough, pretty enough, handsome enough … sexual enough … I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t …

     Enough of all the human illusions … all the EXs live in their Big EGOs. Period. They can win a zillion dollars and complain about the taxes they will need to pay … then they won’t pay it … and complain how the IRS is after them …. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that comes from their big EGOS will ever make them happy … oh, for a split second it will/does … but how many seconds in a life time is there? More than a split second. Therefore, all our EXs are miserable. Period … and then will be miserable until they learn how to become humble again and believe in God.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:45pm

238. justabouthealed says:

     HH….you made me laugh out loud! Several times! Thank you!

     At first I could not enjoy the improvements I made, because they were for HIM. My therapist worked to get me over that. I guess I still struggle with that a bit.

     Stargazer….I’m so afraid of saying something that will reveal my identity to people that know the real me, because I always recommend this site, but don’t want my real-life friends to know all the details of my ordeal…but I worked to capture bad guys, interacting with them in setups (nothing to do with sex!!!), who hurt innocents. And you?

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 3:54pm

239. justabouthealed says:

     HH….I think your therapist hat is showing. That is a good way to think of it…I did need a lesson about taking care of myself. In so many ways, in so many areas. That is a good label to put on this whole thing…..LEARNING TO TAKE CARE OF MYSELF. Including innoculating me from ever getting involved with another BAD MAN.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:04pm

240. justabouthealed says:

     Ps I did drop that line of work. I decided even if it was to capture bad guys….and we did….I didn’t like practicing deceiving even a horrible guy. That is not a skill I want to refine…and I think I developed it living with a psychological abuser as a child, where I had to mold myself to be what they wanted. I felt I was practicing the bad skill of molding myself to get someone’s trust to the point that they would admit what they were doing. Plus the psychiatrist said I should be careful about deliberating exposing myself to more trauma, and I was having to do that, and then I had to try to get the scenes out of my mind…not good…while remembering enough to testify if needed. But I had exciting stories to impress my guy!! YUCKO!!!!!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:09pm

241. Stargazer says:

     Okay, speaking of exposing oneself to more trauma, the covert sexual abuse in my family apparently wasn’t enough for me. In my mid-thirties I became a private exotic dancer. I used to go to strange guys’ homes in the middle of the night and dance for them. That was my dangerous job. Had I known about sociopaths back then, I would have never done it. I thought psychos were one in a million. Fortunately for me, I never had any major problems. I got in, got enough money to get financially stable, and got out. I really feel as if a higher power was watching over me.

     I can see how your job would have been traumatizing, too, j.a.h. Just being around the dregs of society for so many hours a day, you cannot help be affected by it. It took me several weeks to detox from my job, and I only did it very part time.

     Good thing this site is anonymous.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:17pm

242. Stargazer says:

     Learning to manipulate my clients was also a big part of my job. I had to pretend I liked them and found them attractive, and to some extent, be what they wanted me to be for an hour, i.e., give them their fantasy. This was my foray into sociopathy. It changed my personality and my real feelings went underground.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 4:39pm

243. Wini says:

     StarG: Yes, that’s called exercising your EGO. Same with our EXs … it’s all role playing … and not being real, therefore, not being true to yourself, not listening to your inner voice. You can make excuses for years … until … well until you’ve had enough.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 5:08pm

244. justabouthealed says:

     SG- I was just one big act sexually with the P. The book (sorry I always refer to books!) Women Who Love too Much describes a woman who could be a wild woman with other men, but when it came time to be with the guy she actually fell in love with and who loved her and could handle true intimacy, she was the one who was holding back. That is me with my husband. I’m so SHY with him! It is ridiculous, after all these years! But it is because I’m REAL with him, no play acting. I am getting closer to being able to come out of my shell with him…but what a contrast with my playacting self! It does help me today to know I was never able to be real with the P, especially sexually. I think that is a good thing. And now I know if I’m not able to be real around someone, that is a sign I’m in the presence of a controller.

     I’m also a very good speech giver, even a couple of thousand people doesn’t’ phase me, I’m able to just get out there and reach people. But one on one….I’m back to shy unless I force myself, because then there is no acting. Speech making is a bit of an act. I also try to avoid that now days too….I just want to be 1000% real….and when I do have to give a speech, I’m much less of a ham than I used to be.

     SG–being around the bad guys was part time for me too, a week at a time, here or there. And it would all hit me about 4 days after I’m home and I would just collapse and cry and have the worse time getting the images out of my head.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 5:36pm

245. justabouthealed says:

     LOL…I didn’t meant to sound like I always give speeches to thousands! I did aobut 3000 once a LONG time ago, now it is just a couple hundred or less for my job, and I’m going to have to stop referring people I know to this site because I’m identifying myslf to people who know me I think! ARGGGhh.

     And I am too addicted to this and am not doing my job, so signing off for awhile, I really am this time!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 6:30pm

246. Healing Heart says:

     Me too, as I need to work! - this has been a great day for commiserating and laughing with you guys. It’s hard to stay away as it feels like the most meaningful and connected thing I do at times. And for some reason, today has been especially good for me.

     You guys are awesome - I’m so glad to know you and have you share with me.

     I’m going to try to do some work, too!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 6:37pm

247. Stargazer says:

     You guys have helped me so much today. I went out and did my part for the economy today. It should be flowing for quite a while after my little clothing shopping spree. I am truly dangerous with a credit card and should never be trusted with one. Oh well! The most useful thing I bought was one of those one piece body slimmer girdle/bra thingies that makes you look thinner under your clothes. I burned a hole in my old one a few weeks ago when I accidentally set it on a candle flame (I’m pretty special I know.) This was the same day I also set my hair on fire in another candle flame. Anyway, maybe pretty soon we’ll find out justabouthealed is somebody famous!

     Justabouthealed, I’d rather have a real relationship and take my time with sex any day than a wild passionate fling with some bad boy that you don’t know if he’s gonna call the next day. I think it’s awesome that you are able to have such a strong relationship with your husband, especially as a result of your ordeal. If this is not making lemonade out of lemons, I don’t know what is.

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 10:09pm

248. Stargazer says:

     I’m signing off now for the best part of the shopping spree–getting to try on all my new clothes and match them up with the rest of my clothes (of which I have very many). I also get to see if the mirrors in the clothing stores are the kind that make you look 10 pounds thinner. If they are, the clothes are going right back!
     Peace out homeys,
     StarG

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 10:49pm

249. justabouthealed says:

     Yeah right, famous. Glad you think I sound like something other than dirt. The P sure didn’t think much of me! I’m famous in a tiny, tiny pond, and it’s just my job. Take that away and I’m not even a ripple in the pond either!

     But my job is vital and I hope and pray that I’ve gotten enough closure today to sign off until next Saturday. If you see me on here before then, kick me off!

     Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 11:59pm

250. Rosa says:

     At the time, I was aware of everything that is mentioned in the above article, AND I STILL WENT BACK FOR MORE!!!

     For me, it was more like a drug addiction. My obsession with my S boyfriend took on a physical manifestation. I literally ached at times.

     Saturday, 9 May 2009 @ 3:00pm

251. turtle_maddness says:

     I need some help in understanding why my sister stayed with her boyfriend after she found out he stole $30,000 from her and doesn’t seem to care.

     She had been with this guy for 3 years. At first he is a seeminly very nice guy, seemed to do a lot for her and get along great with us all. After a while we started getting annoyed at how much he bragged, and then we began to see he clearly lied and made up almost everything he said. He would say he had met many celebrities, said he had bought 5 houses for them over the course of a year but came up with an excuse every time as to why they couldn’t move in. He said he had done a lot of stuff that didn’t add up-schools he went to, scholarships he had gotten, jobs and making money that it is impossible for him to have been making. We wondered how my sister didn’t see it and believed everything.

     Anyways recently our father passed away, and we had to deal with our evil (probably sociopathic) step mother trying to take everything and gave us very little. As if dealing with losing our father wasn’t hard enough. Anyways my sister had money from him he had given her for school. Within the last few months it had gone missing in lrage chunks. She was upset and her bf told her “don’t worry, I’ll take care of it”. We all suspected it was him but didn’t say anything because my sister would have gotten mad.

     Long story short, we just found out he had stolen the money…but she has known for 4 months. He promised he’d pay her back which he clearly isn’t planning on, but why would she trust him after what he did!? And how could he do this after we had gone through the pain of losing our father at a very younge age (she is only 20).He comforted her about our dad and the stolen money, all while he was the one stealing it!He even went as far as to make a fake e-mail account (as if a lawyer would have a .yahoo account-how could she not have known?) and used a voice changer to make phonecalls to her. He gets angry when she reminds him of what he did saying he “knows he screwed up “but is now blaming it on his ‘personality disorder’. This guy literally put on the show of a lifetime making us think he was so in love with her, doing so many little things for her, “buying” her so many things (I say that in quotes because he was using her money!)He told us he was going to propose, that he made 300 thousand dollars a year and would take care of her…basically it’s clear everything he ever told her and us was a lie…how he lied with such ease and no remorse is beyond me…it sickens me actually. He would steal her bankcard, go take money out, then buy her roses and come home as if he did nothing wrong. He has invested so much time, that’s why it’s so hard to see this as only a game to him, why woudl he waste 3 years playing a game if he didn’t love her and didn’t care about hurting her?

     Oh and he still e-mails her from the fake account pretending to be the lawyer.

     My question is , how could she have not called the police on him right away and why did she still talk to him for so long? She has just now told us what happens, that she feels stupid, and went to the police because we told her to. But for 4 months she was still friends with him although they had broken up, she still went out to visit him, to dinner, said they might get back together (!?), talked to him daily…how could she have kept this from us and how could she still talk to him as if what he did was just “a little” wrong!? I can’t comprehend this and I’m so angry at her, (and him obviously). After reading this website, it ’s clear that he never really loved her at all, and this confuses me.

     She said she noticed his inconsistencies and lies but went along with it and she “didnt know why” she stayed…he seeminly treated her well, there was no mental or physical abuse, to her and the outside world he was a great boyfriend who treated her better than anyone I know who has a gf, but it was all a lie…

     Does anyone understand how after finding out that big of a lie she didn’t freak out, call the cops, and never talk to him again? We are now dealing with this as a family but it is so hard for me to believe what he did and her reaction to it. It’s terrifying to think you can totally put all your trust in someone, think you know them, and really not know them at all, really they are playing you in their little game…it’s horrifying!!

     Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 10:57pm

252. KATYA says:

     I don’t know how they do it. One day, when I got home from work, my son rushed out to me and said NOW YOU WILL BELIEVE ME, NOW YOU WILL SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES. He showed me my ex abusing my baby. you know what I said? I said, I’d talk to him… And I did. And I wrote it off as not knowing how to discipline a ONE YEAR Old (he was spanking him while lifting him by one arm). I don’t know how they do it. I do believe there is some kind of hypnosis involved. But, shortly before the truth hit me, I had many very vivid very scary dreams, that were telling me that things were so wrong. I had no idea what the dreams meant. So, now I am going under Hypnosis to remember what my mind tried to suppress. It seems to work, really.

     Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 11:11pm

253. shabbychic2 says:

     turtle_maddness: We just see what we want to see. I’m a woman in my 50’s who has been as dumb as bricks for most of my life. She probably thought he was really going to pay her back! I believed in the goodness of people my entire life, that they were honest like me, boy was I wrong! I loaned the guy money of my own free will!!! It is confusing and heartbreaking to realize that some people just prey on others, she does not know this, look how long it took me to figure out!… and I’ve done it more that once!

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 1:36am

254. James says:

     turtle_maddness’

     The truth is whenever we are dealing with someone of this nature the answer and many times the questions don’t come easy. The are many factors to consider and what is apparent, “(she is only 20).” is the age of this person. Some of us learn but only after we see what is really there and it becomes clear to us that we are being used and con under a false umbrella of love. Which is why this site is called “LoveFraud.com”.

     I do hope she see him soon for what he really is which is a con and wake up before more damage and monetary lost occurs which it will over time.

     Good luck!

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 7:03am

255. Rosa says:

     TurtleMadness:

     When you are involved romantically with a sociopath (and that is what he is), their effect is “drug-like”, and all rational judgment goes out the window. It is very difficult for someone on the outside, like yourself, to comprehend. There is a good chance she has been manipulated and maybe even abused psychologically, whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
     There is a great article on this site under the category of “Hooked by Sociopaths”. It is called “Love, Sex, Your Brain, and Sociopaths.” You should read it, because it may help you understand your sister’s behavior.

     It sounds like she is waking up, because she finally told you what happened, and went to the police, right? That is great!
     So, if she called the police, it does not appear that she will be marrying this guy or anything. Do NOT allow your sister to marry this guy!! She is only 20 years old.
     My situation is a lot like yours, except my brother is actually married to his psychopath wife. We did not know she was disordered until AFTER the wedding, although the warning signs were there all along. We, as a family, have also been dealing with the consequences of having a psychopath in the family, just like you have been dealing with your sister’s boyfriend, so I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.

     I am giving you the same advice I got when I came to LoveFraud seeking help, and it is great advice:

     Try not to be angry with your sister for not “freaking out” about the lies. Like I said, she has probably been manipulated by this guy, and is still stuck in the fog. You cannot make her see the boyfriend for the con-artist that he is. She has to come to that realization on her own, as well as all of the negative feelings that go with it. You cannot carry that burden for her. As her brother, be as supportive as you can. She is going to need you and the rest of the family to come out of this.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 8:07am

256. Matt says:

     turtle_madness:
     You are describing all the symptoms of a sociopath — the pity play, the manipulation, the lies, the throwing out the occasional crumb of affection, the brain fog.

     I was a criminal defense attorney and I got suckered in by one of these subhumans. My first post, last December, was entitled “Criminal Defense Attorney Falls for Sociopath.” A lot of people on this site says it reads like a playbook for how S’s operate. You might want to go to the archives and look it up.

     Also, I can’t recommend “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare and “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout. Required reading for Sociopath 101.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 9:03am

257. pb says:

     I stayed because I mistakenly thought alcohol was the problem; that he was a nice guy who had problems with alcohol, when really, he is a “monster” (his word at the end) and he drinks because he knows what he is (yet another flip-flop of reality; everyone thinks he’s such a great guy with an alcohol problem).
     I stayed because I still believe that if you want something, or care enough, you can work things out…and he assured me that his adoration was genuine; that he wanted to deal with his issues.
     I stayed because he successfully had me going in circles with trying to make things make sense…How could he be so controlling and angry yet still insist he loved me…What was happening?!
     I stayed because I’d always viewed my life prior to him as rather strange, when in fact it had been abusive. I was stronger because of it - a real challenge for him, but I, for the most part, did not recognize it as abuse. No one had ever said they wanted to take care of me, even my own mother.
     I stayed because in the beginning my best friend said “If you screw this up I’ll smack you”…I felt a social pressure to make it work. The kids had become best friends, we all socialized (until I got tired of putting drunks to bed).
     I stayed because I love his daughter. Many of our scenes began with his verbally abusing his daughter and my defending her.
     I stayed because I didn’t know what I was dealing with.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 12:36pm

258. turtle_maddness says:

     thankyou everyone for your comments;

     I guess it’s hard for me to understand because you’d think most people when finding out someone they love did this to them with no real explanation as to why, you would be so angry and feel conned, not trust them more. It would be a huge shock, even if she said she knew he lied and she went along with it the whole time for whatever reason.

     She now admits she feels humiliated and is starting to think everything he said was a lie, which I understand would be soo hard to swallow considering the person you loved and trusted and thought loved you just scewed you over and basically the whole relationship was a lie. He even tried to blame the fact that he stole on her for giving him her pin-who wouldnt think to give the person they are with for 3 years and trust their pin? I know i’ve done it, now i will think again I suppose.

     If he is infact a sociopath, that means he probably never loved my sister at all and the whole thing was a game-although she didn’t have money in the beggining so I’m not sure if he had stolen at that point or it had just gotten worse than just lieing. When my dad died he seemed to be so attentive and careing to her feelings, as he always did.I wonder if he is a pathological liar with some other disorder but still loved her or if he is a sociopath. Seems like the whole realtionship was a lie, and he put on such a good show. Although I knew he was a liar, I thought it was just to make himself look better. If he just pretended to love her, i wonder why, what was the ppoint, and what other ways did he manipulate her. Why did he emulate feelings of love to a random girl if he really had no feelings for her at all? We all thought he was head over heels in love with her, no matter how much he made things up to make himself look good, we believed he loved her. She had no money in the beggining, so did it begin innocently and progress into this? I guess no one can answer that, not even him because he is a liar.

     If you physically can not feel love, emotion, guilt, remorse, or any kind of human emotion or conscience, i guess all you are left with is to play games because what else is there to live for?

     I guess it’s so hard to grasp because it wasn’t obvious physical abuse, he seemed to dote on her and love her a lot, which is why I can’t believe he actually stole her money then came over to her house and acted lovingly, giving her presents with the money he had stolen from her-it’s mind boggleing!

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 3:35pm

259. Rosa says:

     TurtleMadness:

     He sounds like a pretty good guy……when he’s not stealing your sister’s money!!!

     Unfortunately, that is how they operate. And if given the opportunity, he would do it again, and again, etc.

     It seems like you find it hard to believe that he could be so loving to your sister, and then turn around and steal from her. Being loving is how they get close to their victims. Acts of love and doting on her is what a lot of people here call “love-bombing”. It is a tactic that works really well for sociopaths. It is so much easier to manipulate someone when they love and trust you.

     “Why did he emulate feelings of love to a random girl if he really had no feelings for her at all?”
     I don’t know the details of how these two people met, but I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that she was NOT a random girl to him. He TARGETED her somehow. It was random for your sister, but not for him.

     “She had no money in the beginning, so did it begin innocently and progress to this?” HELL NO! He was running a con right from the start. He is a pathological liar. And sociopaths are masterful at sniffing out opportunities where money is concerned. It is like they have this 6th sense when it comes to other people’s $$$.

     It sounds like your sister is reflecting on this entire relationship, and is realizing that it was all a lie. As you all educate yourselves on personality disorders, you will see there were warning signs with this guy all along. Only your sister can determine how she was manipulated and abused. Just by blaming her for giving him the PIN number is abusive, as far as I am concerned. That is sick, twisted thinking. Typical sociopath.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 9:36pm

260. Matt says:

     turtle_madness:

     It is all about supply with these subhumans. Your sister may not have had money in the beginning, but she was supplying him with something. Probably sex. When the money came along, that was lagniappe (something extra) as we say in Louisiana.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 10:03pm

261. Rosa says:

     TurtleMadness:

     “Seems like the whole relationship was a lie, and he put on such a good show.”

     Isn’t that the truth, TurtleMadness? They put on a really good SHOW! Their thespian skills are unparalleled.

     When my sister-in-law cries, I don’t know whether to get some Kleenex, or hand her an Oscar.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 11:35pm

262. Rosa says:

     Come to think of it, she never cries anymore. Pity plays are not what they used to be.

     Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 11:38pm

263. blueskies says:

     Turtle Madness - ‘If you physically can not feel love, emotion, guilt, remorse, or any kind of human emotion or conscience, i guess all you are left with is to play games because what else is there to live for?’ A great statement

     It IS mind boggling for those of us or are not S/P/N’s to wrap our heads around this behaviour, I think its why we all struggle so hard to get over these encounter’s because there is no where to ‘put’ what happened, there is no unravelling and no sense that can be made.

     The s/p I knew used to tell people(randomly? - on social networking sites as well as face to face) that he was not capable of loving in the sense that everyone else does… yet use the language of love on his ‘victims’ so thickly it is overwhelming… I asked him why he did this once and he acknolwedged it was strange but said he didnt know (a complete shut down of my questions, I am sure he Does know, then as Rosa said, I had the Oscar winning wailing and crying routine… no more questions answered today!).

     I assume this ‘TRUTH’ also works well as part of his pity-play and ‘fishing’.

     The reasons for snaring someone he knows does not love are also beyond conception to non S/Ps (I think most non s/p’s, who felt that for whatever reason, they could not or were not ready to ‘love’ would struggle with maintaing even casual dates- I know I do, definately not start talking marriage or whatever) and could be anything, boredom, sex, money, attention, access to social circles whatever.

     S/P: “oh poor me I am incapable of loving ”
     Already scoped and targeted as an open caring soon to be EASY victim:
     “no! I can show you how to love! I can help you to become whole again!”….
     S/P: “BINGO!EASY PEASY! hehehe, now what can I get out of this schmuck before I get bored of it.”

     You are asking questions about this situation, but I think you already have a good grasp of what he really is, and the amazing guys here will have so much information and support for you, you have come to the right place!

     your sister is soooo lucky you are able to see what’s going on and are caring and intelligent enough to want to find out more. I should think this will be a long road for your sister and a frustrating one for you. But once again I say she is so lucky to have you.:)xx

     Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 3:20am

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