Humans are lousy lie detectors
PDF An article in last week’s New York Times magazine contained the following amazing statement: “Repeating a claim, even if only to refute it, increases its apparent truthfulness.”
Although the article had nothing to do with sociopaths, the statement made me think of my ex-husband, James Montgomery. Among his many lies, Montgomery claimed to be a member of the Australian military, a decorated Vietnam War hero, and a member of the Special Forces. None of this was true, but from what I can tell, he’d been making the claims since at least 1980 (we met in 1996). They’d been repeated many times, for many years—which apparently enhanced their believability.
Like most of us here on Lovefraud, I felt like a complete fool for being so totally deceived. Why couldn’t I see the lies? But it turns out that I have plenty of company. Psychological research indicates that in general, people can distinguish truths from lies only about 53 percent of the time. That’s not much better than flipping a coin.
No signs of lying
Some people believe that there are physiological signals that someone is lying—for example, extraneous hand gestures or averting eye contact.
In one study, scientists asked more than 2,000 people from all over the world, “How can you tell when people are lying?” The number one answer was the same: “Liars avert their gaze.”
This may be true for some people, but it is not true all the time, and probably not true at all with sociopaths. Here at Lovefraud, we all have stories of the predator gazing into our eyes while he or she lied through his teeth.
Some researchers believe that liars tend to move their arms, hands and fingers less, blink less, and have more tension in their voices. Still, these behaviors are not consistent—some people who lie display them, and others don’t.
The point is, in hundreds of studies, researchers have found no reliable signal that indicates when someone is lying.
I don’t know, but I assume that the studies were done on general populations, and not populations of sociopaths. If we can’t detect lying in normal people, what chance do we have with sociopaths?
Truth About Deception
The situation gets even worse in romantic relationships. The reason, quite simply, is that we want to believe and trust our romantic partners.
“As people become more intimate and more emotionally involved they also become less accurate at detecting their partner’s deception,” states the website Truth About Deception. “People are too willing to give their romantic partners the benefit of the doubt.”
The Truth about Deception website is dedicated to explaining lies in romantic relationships, and the information presented is scary. For example, it states, “Most people think they are really good at telling when their partner is lying, but research shows that thinking you are good at detecting deception does not make it so.”
This creates, according to the website, a dangerous situation:
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As intimacy increases:
- People’s confidence at detecting deception increases
- People’s actual ability to detect deception declines
- Partners have more reason to lie
The website suggests that the only real way of determining if a romantic partner is lying is through some type of monitoring or surveillance.
Awareness, intuition, evaluation
So what’s the answer? How do we know when someone is lying?
The first step is to realize that people do, in fact, lie. That’s how honest, trustworthy people get into trouble—we don’t lie, so we don’t expect people to lie to us. This is a dangerous blind spot.
Our initial clue that someone is lying will probably come from our intuition. If we get that hit, that inkling, that the truth is not being told, we need to pay attention.
Then, we need to critically evaluate what is being said, along with evidence that proves or disproves the statements. When facts are irrefutable, we should believe the facts, and not the pleas of the liar.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
eyeswideshut,
Your husband’s sending your child to the woods to cut down 50′ trees without any supervision or training is almost as bad as giving him a gun to “play with” unsupervised.
Sheesh! It is difficult to believe that ANY person is THAT stupid! Or careless with their child! Yet I know it is true.
Here on my farm we have a couple of RULES that iare never violated. No one climbs on a ladder when they are here alone. EVER and NO ONE ever uses a chain saw when alone.
Of course my sons have had GOOD and extensive training and experience with chain saws, but we always have protective gear, like the chaps, head and face protectors and hearing protectors and someone to stand by in case of an accident. Everyone here on the farm has had Emergency Medical Technition training (or more) as well.
It makes me quite angry at your husband myself and I am not the kid’s mother, and don’t even know you except from the blog—Ohhhhhhhh! Ugggggg! I’m glad your son survived intact. Praise God!
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newworld view says:
how can i read he gale warnings blog//
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OxDrover says:
go up a few posts to where peggywhoever is addressing me (ox drover) and she has the link at the bottom of that post. It is kind of tiny print at the bottom of her post in the same color as the date stamp.
It really is a good site. Thanks again Peggy.
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newworld view says:
tks
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gennyrabbit says:
the article makes a good point about the eyes. they do avert their eyes when they lie. but i think since a lot of people are aware of that others know about that if they sense you are looking at their eyes to see if they are lying they’ll stare into your eyes to defy you. hence not blinking. but the S i was with was a punk and i think if the S you are dealing with has an ego the stare can be accompanied by a look of laughter behind his eyes and maybe even a smirk. it starts to move into their abusive behavior.
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gennyrabbit says:
ox drover, my x S would hint too. he would say ‘you know, baby. i have multiple personalities.’ he wasn’t technically so i would dismiss it.
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Beverly says:
Many years ago, I taught a body language class and I am an astute observer. But when I suspected my exN of cheating on me, he looked me straight in the eye, kept himself perfectly composed and never flinched or looked shifty whilst he lied to me like there was no tomorrow!! These people can be the minority who pass lie detector tests because in their heads there is nothing wrong with their actions, so they have little or no physiological respnse.
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romanticfool says:
I refused to even consider my Mr. Nice Guy would lie to me on anything important, even when he was telling me stupid lies that no way could I have belived. I told myself it was a mid-life crisis, or maybe some medical problem. Even when he tried to gas light me I just saw it as a sign of some tempory disfunction. After all, I’d already been gas lighted in a previous relationship, and had TOLD him it doesn’t work on me. When people tell me I’ve said things I know I wouldn’t even think of, when they are supposed to be quoting me, but they are using their own speech patterns and typical behavior, gimme a break!
I hate when people lie to me, but I hate worse when I lie to myself. Looking back, of course I knew he was lying. I asked him if he was having an affair, he said “of course not, you are the only woman for me” and I BELIEVED him. Although after he told me his last big lie, it only took 10 minutes on-line to find out the truth.
The more sincere he looked the bigger the lie. When he held both my hands and looked deeply into my eyes, I thought, OK, this one is going to be a whopper! I honestly believe he practiced looking sincere, he’s incredibly vain and has done theatre. He’s a dang good actor, or was until his drug use started to catch up with him.
I’m a lousy lie detector. But I’m getting better, any one who comes on too strong and grandious at the very beginning, gets bumped right out of my life
If I were ever to consider another relationship, he would have to agree to a credit check, full background check and random drug testing. I think I will be single for the rest of my life!
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neverneverland says:
Morning after morning, I lay here in my bed, contemplating all of the lies I could have been told. Was “I love you” a lie the last time he said it? What about the first time? Did he ever mean anything he said? Or was all of it bullshit from the start? One thing that I did find out is that less than 40 percent of what ex told me was going to happen with his band actually happened. There was always a new marketing scheme to get money, a new publicist, a director wanted to use his music, blah, blah. After so much of it, I figure out that whatever happened happened. But I never thought he’d intentionally lie to me. Never.
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Marie says:
They are all pie in the sky neverneverland. Mine used to make all kinds of plans, very few ever came to fruition. He had big ideas for ‘his’ band too, all the time, plans, plans and more plans. He loved to feel in charge of everything even though someone else actually managed the band. He muscled in wanting to be the centre of it all. If his suggestions weren’t put into operation he would get really angry and start ranting about being unappreciated and saying things like ‘if they only knew what I had done in the past’ etc…………like he was some big hotshot! They are so full of themselves it is unbelievable. Oh and the lies, don’t believe anything they say, ever. They open their mouths and they lie. It is nothing to them, they live in a fantasy world.
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neverneverland says:
Marie, seems like our situations are similar. If you want, you can email me at ciao_manhattan at yahoo. But yes, I know the feeling. The shame of this is, this man has fans who hang on his every word. Now granted, he’s lost a lot of them over time due to his flakiness, and chances are his act’s about to tank in the next year or so. There is nothing like a sociopath in the spotlight. Nothing. They are insufferable.
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romanticfool says:
Amen to that girl! And it won’t improve once he’s out of the spot light for how ever many years, he’ll just keep on living those glory days like they are still happening.
Neverneverland, yes, it was a lie from the beginning to end. Why do we think they will never lie to us when we know they lie in other ways? I think it has something to do with that sheep article just posted! But as you lay awake each morning, tell yourself the movie is over. It wasn’t real, now the people have filed out and the screen is dark. You can go back to real life. Repeat as often as nessesary.
I’m still obsessing over mine, but some reading here has explained some things to me and I’m feeling a bit better and less like the stupid blonde in the horror movies who leaves a nice safe house just to run into Freddy Krueger. Hmmm, they even share the same last name!
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Lykastia says:
I knew right from the start he was lying to me, but I went on with the charade. He was so confusing and I told him so but all the replied was “Don’t be confused”. I kept asking questions that remained unanswered and I just thought “oh well, maybe he will open up later and tell me what he’s all about”. But he never did. All he told me were lies, lies, lies. I met him on Perfectmatch, of all places. He told me he was self-employed, that’s a mild way to put it, don’t you think? Self-employed in scamming people is more like it. He took $20,000 from me. I will never see that money again. He promised me to love me forever. I haven’t heard from him in weeks. I found out that he was in Ghana while he was telling me he had a house in Ohio, a big house with everything a person could wish for in it, even down to the fireplace with a bear skin in front of it. He said he bought me a car, a promise ring. He promised to make me “the most happiest woman on earth”, I am now the saddest woman on earth, broke and looking for a permanent job. Broken, I should say.
I am still obsessing over him too, I want to find him and make him suffer as much as he is still making me suffer. Not a day goes by where I don’t say to myself that I will find him and make him pay for all the lies he told me. But I am sure the name he gave me is not even his real name. He gave me two bogus addresses, I had a background check made on him and yet, I fell for him. All the “secrets” he was supposed to share with me, I know them all now. I don’t know who he’s sweeping off their feet now, but I pity them because they will go through the same thing I went through and for the life of me, I want this to stop! This is so not fair! I have been nothing but open and transparent with him and I believed every lie he told me. I used to wake up in the morning asking myself myself “ok, how much money will he ask me for today?” Or “how long will I go on like that, running around like a chicken with no head, going back and forth between the bank and the Western Union office?” I’m 43, for crying out loud, I should’ve known better! I am so angry at myself! I don’t think I will ever stop being angry at myself for being such a fool! And I knew he was a con artist, I just knew it! But I went along with it! Why? Because I needed the attention? The “supposed” love he was promising me? I kept saying that my problems were over, I would never have to worry about money anymore since he claimed to be a millionaire. If he’s a millionaire, it’s from taking money away from people like me!
I’m glad I found this site but it makes me so angry to read that so many of us get caught in charades that lead to a dead end and there is really no one to help us. I’ve filed reports upon reports against him and still, nothing has come up. When will this ever stop?
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lykastia,
Unfortunately, the Internet is the “happy hunting ground” for the Psychopaths to find prey.
It isn’t much consolation to know that you are NOT ALONE.
Yes, I agree, life is NOT fair, it is not right for people to scam and con others by holding out the “fantasy” of DREAMS of love, etc. to other people.
Being angry at him, and being angry at yourself is a normal reaction to being conned, to being hurt, to having something you thought you had in your hand “jerked” out from under you.
The fantasy he held out to you was the same fantasy that they all held out to all of us—what WE WANTED. We all fell for it, you are not any smarter or any dumber than any of us.
I don’t know if you saw the 20/20 show on television where a man met his “future wife” on an Internet site, she was beautiful, she was rich, she could pose for playboy and this guy was mid fifties, etc. and he divorced his wife, sold his house, sent her $40,000 and she was a MAN IN GHANA.
Everyone wants love, everyone wants to be special to someone, and they prey on this normal human need, that is in all of us.
Don’t be too hard on yourself, give yourself a break, read here and learn about psychopaths and what they are. There are worse stories than yours, and there are some not so bad. It just depends on where we were when we finally caught on to the LIE, HE IS THE LIE.
Your normal wish to find him and make him pay for making you suffer is all together the feelings that we have all had. You wouldn’t be “normal” if that were not the case, the thing is unfortunately, most of us will have only closure that we make for ourselves. There is not a great deal of chance that any of us will “get back” what they took from us, in terms of money, love, caring or time, but the one thing we can do is to heal ourselves. Learn from this and move on with our lives.
They find us when we are the weakest the most vulnerable. I was a fairly recent widow when my “prince charming” latched on to me. Set me on cloud 9, I was going to be soooo happy. This from a man I had casually known for 10 years and thought I could trust. Boy, O Boy! did I have that wrong.
Other women have been married to these psychopaths for 10, 20, 30 or even more years. So I count myself lucky that I didn’t marry this man….I can only imagine the pain it would have been if I married him and THEN found out the truth.
The BEST “revenge” is a Good Life, and while right now you may not believe that–you may believe that the best revenge would be bamboo splinters under his fingernails and toe nails, and I would be willing to bet there are plenty of us here who have wanted to do just that to our Psychopaths! But then we would be just like them—and we’re not. The reason that we were targets and prey is that we ARE GOOD PEOPLE, we are CARING people—and I would rather be a VICTIM 100 X over than to be a psychopath myself, and not be able to feel love, or caring, or hope or all the wonderful emotions that we CAN feel and they can’t. Can you only imagine how EMPTY such a person is—all the money in the world won’t buy him happiness, only THINGS—and believe me you got the best end of the deal! I know that sounds trite and patronizing, but I am as sincere as I can be.
You have found a good place for your healing here, and all of us have been where you are, hurting, sad/angry ashamed of ourselves for being so gullible, and every other emotion that you are feeling from minute to minute. You will find support here, come here often, read, learn and post–you would be surprised at how much it will help. God bless.
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neverneverland says:
Lykastia,
I asked myself the same questions. I lost the same amount of money you did, sum total — a lot of it was not in cash, but in gifts and things he asked me to buy for him that he’d “repay” me for. I too am way too old to know better. There were times when I had those niggling questions in the back of my mind … “Is he taking advantage of me? Nah! No way! He wouldn’t do THAT.” I was so, so very wrong. I think everyone here got promises that turned out to be false. Everyone here was lied to. Everyone here was deceived. Everyone here was or still is angry and hurt in a way most people in legitimate relationships are *not* hurt, because of the treachery involved.
It’s hard to look back and see the past two years of my life as a sham. But that’s what they were. I expended every spare minute and dime on my ex. I have nothing for myself now. I’m all used up. I’m broke, I’m living with a roommate, and I’m barely making ends meet. Two years ago, I was flush, living in a big house, and planning vacations. It’ll be a long time before I recover from this …
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Glinda says:
As usual, OxD is eloquent when she says it all.
I just wanted to add that those Nigerian scam artists are REALLY good at what they do. They even managed to suck in the xs!!! He thought he was corresponding with this super hot chick, professing his love, talking about her to his family, trying to steal enough money to send to her- who really turned out to be a Nigerian GUY! hahahahahaha. That was an awesome spectacle to behold when the con man realized he had been conned. The fury. The outrage. The absolute hilarity- wait, that was MY emotion…ahahahahahaha! (The best part? He doesn’t even know I know about it!)
OxD, you said we need to laugh, which I wholeheartedly agree with… I laugh about the above every time I see him. (I have to see him because of the children- otherwise I’d be NC. I think the LEAST I deserve is to never hear his voice again.)
So, Lykastia, try not to be too hard on yourself. You know now what you were dealing with. Be sad, get mad (I found alot of healing power in mad for awhile) and then decide what you really want and need- take steps to get it. Sounds simple, doesn’t? LOL It’s alot easier than beating yourself up over and over again.
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Lykastia says:
Thank you for your support, everyone. I do come here often and read about psychopaths, but strangely, it makes me even angrier. And sad. What hurts me even more is the lack of compassion of some so-called “friends” and family members. I wish I could talk to a psychologist but I don’t even have the means to do that at the moment. I feel so alone. It’s funny, because I used to feel good when I was by myself before, but now, I feel devastated when I go to sleep at night and wake up alone in the morning. I don’t know how to fix that. I wonder how long it will take me to become the happy go lucky person I was before that happened to me. I am just not myself anymore. I hate being in that situation.
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LilOrphan says:
Marie
“He had big ideas for ‘his’ band too, all the time, plans, plans and more plans. He loved to feel in charge of everything even though someone else actually managed the band. He muscled in wanting to be the centre of it all.”
Wow, does that chord resonate – no pun intended. When I first started figuring things out, something similar was a huge tip-off. You know how when you’re being conned it’s really hard to see, right? So I only first spotted his lack of ethics when it came to the band he was in.
Here he joined this band that had been around for a long time. Lousy band…too many ‘musicians’ most of them fairly talentless, this old singer chick who was known for being a floozie and the leader, an old keyboard player.
Within scant months he was talking of leaving the band and taking many of them with him, away from the guy who created the band! And guess what? He DID it, eventually, after I left.
When he first started talking about it, I asked point-blank: “Do you always do such unethical things?”
He back-pedaled, but it sounded false. Was easy to see the ethics of the situation never crossed his mind. He was ruthless enough to just do whatever he wanted, everyone else be damned.
And I realized that “everyone else” easily included me. Sure it already did, in fact.
Now, maybe in business, people always act so self-serving and unethical. Really didn’t know. But I knew that being with someone who would do that was the wrong choice for me, and anyone who would do that kind of thing to someone else would do it to me.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lykastia,
I can “feel” the pain in your posts, and I wish I could put my arms around you and give you a real (((hug)))) instead of a cyber hug.
Even if you can’t see a psychologist at the moment, do come here and read and POST. I just read an interesting chapter of a book (posted link on this site) from the “Does WRiting help” and the writing, the “confessing” of what we feel to another apparently DOES significantly help us recover—I can testify that this and several other sites have made a big difference for me. It doesn’t matter if I am posting asking for support, or if I am posting offering support, the posting, the exchanging with others HELPS ME.
If I ask for support or questions others offer me a different way of looking at things, etc. If I offer support to others, I have to THINK about it and come to a conclusion in my own mind.
I found when I was in college I actually tutored other students in my class on the class we were taking together and it HELPED ME AS MUCH AS IT DID THEM. (Or more!)
Knowing that someone understands what you are going through is also a very healing thing. Your friends DON’T undertand, and neither did our friends and family. It seems to be one of those things that you almolst have to experience to understand it. It is NOT like a normal “break up” with a boyfriend or a business partner or whoever the Psychopath happens to be—WE HAVE BEEN DEFRAUDED, WE HAVE BEEN MISTREATED—AND THAT IS NOT THE SAME.
Our “wounds” are not “visible” like a broken leg, or a cut, they are INVISIBLE, they are INTERNAL and most other people can’t relate because they have only experienced “normal” break ups, and they think our “break up” is the same as theirs and IT IS NOT.
You aren’t crazy, or stupid, you are WOUNDED and you need to heal, and the “salve” you need to heal is to know that you aren’t alone, and that someone does understand and support you. Learn about psychopaths, and come here for whatever you need in the way of support or answers–and like my husband used to say, “ALL answers are free, and correct answers are too” or “we’ll always answer your questions and sometimes we might be right” (laugh)
Seriously though, there have been people here for us and we are glad to return the favor–because even helping others is healing for us as well. ((((hugs))))
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hummingbird1418 says:
It’s hard to sort the truth from the lies after a while.
Their stories seem so believable.
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Marie says:
LilOrphan, your ex sounds so much like my ex. Mine would do anything to push himself to the top of the pile and that included treading all over anyone who he deemed to be in his way. He was so selfish, everything was all about him and how wonderfully talented he thought he was! Each time he joined a new band, it was the best thing ever. He would be full of enthusiasm as he told me how he was going to work wonders with the band, and they would get more gigs because he was in it, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. In reality, within a few months he would come crashing back down to earth, and moan continuously about how badly he was treated by the other band members (?), how awful they were to work with, how they were lacking in morals….*I raise my eyes to heaven on this one – talk about the pot calling the kettle black!* Then he would either get kicked out of the band, or leave, trying to persuade the others to follow him. He was so full of himself, he loved himself, trying to pretend he was a good, moralistic, lovely guy. In reality, he was a nasty, evil man, a user and a backstabber amongst other things.
You are right LilOrphan “everyone else”…..that does include us too. The hurt this causes is beyond belief isn’t it.
hummingbird, yes it is very hard to sort the truth from the lies. There are times that I have wished I could speak to someone who really knows my ex, so that I could get a real picture of the man I was with, rather than the one he painted for me. I now know enough about him to realise that it wouldn’t be a pleasant experience finding out the rest of the truth about this man and his past. But for some strange reason, I do want to know everything. Anyone else feel this way? Oxdrover perhaps you can shed some light on this. I enjoy reading your posts….always so wonderfully informative and full of excellent advice.
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LilOrphan says:
Oh, Marie…LOL..YES! Pretty much hit that nail on the head. Mine said similar things about the bands…how he was “the glue” of the band, how untalented they all are (lousy musicians) and the same for the band he was with before….and the same for my dad’s band, who he was with before THAT.
Even his alleged “best friend” — he had nothing nice to say about that guy’s playing or personality. He said that guy lived “the world according to ___ (that guy’s name).”
Now I think that was projection.
The morals thing floored me. You see, years ago when we’d known one another, I believed all that moral pontificating. I thought we belonged together because I was REALLY that moral: no married men, no multiple partners at once, monogamist, no cheating, you know — sincere woman, looking for the real thing.
So years later when he came back and I heard just a snippet of his escapades, I thought: Whoa, who the heck IS this person?
That first night after “catching up” I went home and cried, for what he’d “become,” for our separation (which I naively still thought was partly my doing), for all the things that had happened to us over time. It was so jarring and sad, thinking I’d caused some of it!
Hah, perhaps I should come with my own “idiot” label for the forehead!
His life was his doing. He had no intention of changing what he was. I was just being re-added to the pile, another cd in rotation.
I wish to know the full truth, too. Think it’s because that will further validate what we already know and convince us the problem was them and it isn’t going to change. We already know that, intellectually. We’re just wishing to gather enough evidence to convince our hearts.
Personally, I have enough evidence to book, convict, imprison and toss away the key.
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hummingbird1418 says:
When and how do you recover from the hurt and anger?
Some days I’d just like to hurt him like he has hurt me.
I am sure that there were many women in his past. He once told me he can’t remember the number of women he has had sex with.
Pretty sad for him and for them.
I would like to fill in all the missing pieces as well. What he really has been doing all these years. How many lives he has wrecked? He has an old girlfriend who still calls him. I am amazed at the hold these men have – even after the relationship ends. Maybe he is still involved with her as well as the mothers of his godchildren. How would I know for sure and would I want to?
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OxDrover says:
Marie,
Yes, I can completely identify with “wanting to know” the truth, ALL the truth. Sometimes this is impossible of course and we can never sort it all out. Through the years I have come to know the a couple of his “friends” on the outside or their families.
My son learned to be a master boot maker while he was in prison, and got into the craft shop there. Some inmates “work” for themselves producing various hand crafted items. He learned to make boots from an inmate that took him on as an “apprentice”—he in turn later had his own apprentices. Almost every shoe repair store in the state is populated by former inmates as no one in the free world has enough time to learn this trade which must be passed on from master to pupil.
Anyway, my son became quiet adept at this and his boots were selling for thousands of dollars a pair. When his teacher got out of prison on parole, I met this man and his wife. He was about 42 years old at that point. Moved back to his home town near his nice family, and went to work. He and I talked and he seemed very open and truthful to me. Gave me some “insights” into my own son’s behaviors—of course—only the things I wanted to hear.
I thought this man would “make it” on the outside. For a while I had business near the town where he and his wife lived (he had renewed a relationship with a woman he knew before going to prison 20 yrs before and they got married) and I would frequently visit him and his wife when I was in the area.
Later, I found out that he had “gotten bored” with real life—getting up and going to work each day, coming home at night to television and a home cooked meal, going to bed and repeating this the next day. He came home one evening and told his wife that he “NEEEDED TO BE FREE” and took off, leaving her high and dry.
A few months later he got high on drugs and was arrested after putting a chain on an ATM machine and dragging it off. He is now back in prison, will most likely never get out again. I visited with his now x-wife on a recent trip to Texas. I spent the night with her and we talked all through the night. She is a pretty sharp woman, much sharper than I had realized when I had seen her only in his presence. She has some problems emotionally from growing up in an abusive family of her own, and being involved with a series of Ps herself, but she is doing very well now, gaining great insight into her own tendency to be vulnerable to these men.
She also realizes that her X is a psychopath, and gave me great insight into him and my son, and some details that I had not known.
This poor woman, due to her bi-polar diagnosis and the chaotic lifestyle that she endured because of that and the Ps she became involved in had a very fragmented work history so her disability payments are so so that it is unbelievable to me that she can exist, much less live on them. When I was there she asked me if I would take her small dog home with me as she could not afford to feed him.
That night I was there she offered me half of the ONLY remaining food she had in the house for supper—I ate it, but only not to insult her, but I choked down every bite and held back the tears. Yet, in spite of this crushing poverty she is making it, she is doing well, managing her life, living within her means with the help of the food bank. She used her “back pay” when she did finally get her disability to completely pay for a small place to live.
All the way home from there I thanked God for the multitude of blessings that I have, and thanked him for taking care of this poor woman.
I guess maybe this is all an “emotional autopsy” for me on this relationship–in any “failed” relationship I have always tended to want to know what went wrong–whether it was a quarrel with a neighbor over a fence, or a boy friend, a boss, or whatever the type of relationship. Sometimes this has helped me in the future to avoid this kind of confrontation. Funny thing was though, I could always learn from a situation where it was not a FAMILY member, if it was a boss, or a boy friend I seemed to “get it” but not with my own family members. I think somehow I thought I HAD to work it out no matter what, or FIX it no matter what it took. IT NEVER OCCURED TO ME TO GO PERMANENT NC with any of them except my P-bio father, and he didn’t raise me.
NC is of course the OBVIOUS answer, when you think about it. WHY have anything to do with someone who is mean to you, demeans you? Yet, I rejected it completely as an option even after it was pointed out to me—but since instituting it, WOW—PEACE. It took a while for it to sink in and give me enough space to start to hear my OWN inner voices rather than the TAPES that had been implanted in my head first by my enabling “P-by-proxy” mother, and by my son himself.
I also realized that my mother had used religion (her version) to implant “guilt chips” inside my head that I must always accept her actions as “just, right, and kind” or God would disapprove of me.
Twisted religion can be a POWERFUL WEAPON in the arsenal of the Ps and their “troops” (those that enable them) and they will use that as a first line of “defense” but if that fails they will go on to other more painful weapons, gaslighting and crazy making along with a smear campaign.
In many cases, and in mine, I was so frantic with fear, stress, guilt etc. that I definitely APPEARED CRAZY and I am not sure I wasn’t totally crazy—
IN going back and doing the “emotional autopsy” of my failed relationships with my mother, my son, the X-DIL, and my son C’s failed relationship with his XW (how he got suckered in and stayed in) I am more able to see where I WENT WRONG, where I ignored the red flags,
Just knowing what they are doesn’t help me heal, I am focusing on ME—what I did wrong in RESPONSE to their behavior—where I over looked the OBVIOUS LIE and WHY I over looked the obvious lie.
How can I use this knowledge to heal myself. Well, first off I think in raising my own confidence to make my own decisions about what is “right” or “wrong” behavior and what behavior I will expect,… NO, DEMAND,…. from those close to me.
Realizing that I don’t HAVE TO TOLERATE BAD BEHAVIOR NO MATTER WHO IT IS–Did I give birth to them? Does that give them a right to use me? Did they give birth to me? Does THAT give them a right to abuse me? Of course not, but at first I didn’t see that.
What is “forgiveness”?
My family’s “definition” per the twisted religion that was preached to me was that it meant “let’s pretend it never happened”—”let’s don’t call the malefactor to task for his bad behavior, if you do you will be punished with the threat of hell fires for not forgiving.”
I have come to see that spiritually “forgiveness” is not the above, but is getting the bitterness against these people out of your own heart. It doesnt mean playing “let’s pretend none of this happened.” It does NOT mean reestablishing TRUST. I can forgive these people (get the bitterness out of my own heart) but I don’t have to “trust them” ever again. I don’t have to interact with them ever again.
I have also realized that I am entitled to respectful treatment from everyone. I do not have to tolerate disrespectful treatment.
I have realized that my instincts are good, and that I should listen to them.
I have realized that I can set my own rules about who I interact with and how I interact with them. I can set appropriate boundaries and enforce them. No one else has to agree that my boundaries are “correct.” They are MY BOUNDARIES and I have ever right to set them as I see fit!
If my “boundary” is that there is no smoking in my home and you light up a cigar after being informed of the boundary, it is not MY place to tolerate it, YOU are in MY home and should respect MY boundary. Don’t want to respect my boundary, then GET THE HELL GONE I do not have to “feel bad” because I didn’t tolerate your crossing my boundary and being disrespectful to me.
At the emotional distance I am now after nearly a year of total NC with my P son, and coming up on a year of NC with the Trojan-Horse P (unless you count seeing him in court) and almost 7 months of 99% NC with my mother, I am not “disturbed” any more by actually seeing or conversing about business on a limited amount of contact. I realize that I will have to be in some contact about that with my mother for my own financial benefit. But I keep it to BUSINESS and if she starts to wander off in to a “personal” conversation, the conversation is OVER immediately. (That’s my boundary and I’m sticking to it firmly) I am no longer her power of attorney for her personal finances or her medical care, so what her latest interest rate is or her cholesterol level is not of interest to me.
I realize that “honor your father and mother” does NOT mean that I have to take whatever dysfunctional behavior they want to dish out, but it means that I should BECOME the kind of person that would BRING honor to a parent.
In the end, as painful as this whole lifetime of pain has been, I think that I have grown from it, at last. I have grown and healed mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and it feels good.
The truth may very well indeed be PAINFUL, but it can set us FREE. I think in many ways that it is like “labor pains” in that at the time you are experiencing them they encompass your entire being and you would do anything to not be experiencing them, you ask yourself why you didn’t use birth control! LOL But when they labor is over, you are glad that it happened because you have given birth to a new human—I think I have given BIRTH TO MYSELF. A new me.
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tryingtorecover says:
OxDrover, I love your last paragraph. My sister-in-law sent me this quote today.
“For better or worse, you are the only you that you will ever get. What you decide to do with you; is up to you. Tomorrow you will still be you. The question is whether you will move closer today to whom you want to be. If you are patient, if you are persistent, if you are consistent, an amazing transformation will begin to occur.”
I haven’t been posting that much for a while. I’ve been trying to work on me and not give him anymore of my energy. The thoughts of everything haven’t been there constantly.
I’m dealing with him now though. On Monday I got a call from my son’s counselor’s office saying his health ins. had been canceled. I text Bad Dad and didn’t get a response so I called human resources at the sheriff’s office and he is no longer employed. When BD finally got back to me(he didn’t know I new he quit) He said the ins was the same, he was just waiting for new paper work. Long story short he says he is moving back to our state, but he wouldn’t tell me where he’s working until I told him it was a court order. The two places he says he’s going to work( if one falls through then it’s the other) I think are both lies. The Income Deduction Order had just gone to his employer and then he quit. Oh well, it was to be expected.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Trying to recover,
If he had insurance at a company he can COBRA out for your son, the price would be high of course, but if there is a COURT order that he must pay insurance then he will have to COBRA out and pay OR GO TO JAIL if you push it.
yea, as soon as you nick their check, they quit. Typical, and I don’t know if he is bothering you trying to see your son or not or even if your son wants to see him, sometimes it is “cheaper” in terms of it all to let them “get away without child support” etc so that they will STAY OUT of your kid’s life.
Yea, I agree we are our own “for better or worse” and I am working hard to make it the BETTER.
Ii am amazed at the amount of things I have accomplished this week already. Today I sent the final draft of my letter to the parole board for the Trojan-Horse-P’s up coming parole this month–3 1/2 pages of (if I DO SAY SO MYSELF) of GREAT prose (sound of me patting myself briskly on the back) sprinkled with clinical references and citing references from various psychological text books, detailing why HE IS A GREAT RISK to society if let out.
One of the nice things about that kind of thing is that they sure don’t want to make the mistake of letting out someone (especially a child molester) who then goes out and reoffends AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN WARNED….LOL. The governor here prior to the one we have now, let out a “famous” rapist and then within a month the guy had raped and KILLED a girl (first killing he did we know of) but sure put egg on the Gov’s face. So it would be “safer” for them to keep him in (no one is begging to let him out) and make sure they didn’t release him and he reoffended—thus putting egg on their faces–PLAY IT SAFE–the politicians motto.
I also finished up the son C and X-P-DIL’s taxes for 2007 and have them ready for the witch to sign, so even splitting the money 50/50 with her he will get back quite a bit more $$$. Plus, I can give back her cat soon that I have been “holding for hostage” for her good behavior. LOL Of course there is no way I would harm her cat, but she thinks I would dismember it and send it to her in pieces, so let her think that if it will make her cooperate! LOL One of my really really REALLY sick friends said I should make a video of me in a black mask holding the cat with a copy of today’s newspaper in the video and a big long knife at the cat’s throat! But that was a little bit sicker than even my twisted sense of humor would go for. LOL But if my DIL wants to believe I would harm her cat and that will get her to cooperate and make life easier for me, that is okay too.
I’m just so tired of dealing with them and thinking about them, and want to get on with doing things for me! At least, though, the stage where I was a “blithering, blubbering, lying on the floor sucking my thumb pile of protoplasm” is past and I am now more logical, rational, and have quit sucking my thumb and am down to about 10 cigarettes a day instead of 40-50, 2 cups of coffee instead of 12, and eating real food. Sleeping 6-8 hours a night of actual REST, and laughing at the most absurd things in the world until I choke. I’m even approaching somewhere in the range of “normal” now—and I think that is better than I’ve ever been. LOL
I’m not “patient” but I AM persistent so maybe that “amazing transformation” you spoke of will occur!
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tryingtorecover says:
OxDrover, I’m glad you’re in a better stage of healing. I am too. I’m filing contempt papers. If he would just go away I would let it all slide to have him out of our lives. I don’t think he’s going away anytime soon. He still wants to control me and use my son to do it. He will also use my son to play devoted dad to his gf and her wealthy family. He’s going to be very angry when he finds out I filed. So be it. I’m not going to be afraid anymore.
Cat hostage video-lol lol lol
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OxDrover says:
DEar trying,
Yea, I am sure in a much better place than I was, but some days are still better than others, but none are HORRIBLE any more. I used to work for a physician that had a saying “some days is tragic, and some days is magic!” (bad grammar but true saying!) I’m finding though that I can handle the “tragic” days better and better and I don’t get kicked to the bottom of the heap any more even if it is a bad day.
I think one of the things I am doing that really helps is that I am consciously trying to keep my STRESS LEVEL DOWN. If a situation would cause stress I avoid it. If I don’t want to do something, I don’t let anyone talk me into doing it., and I don’t let THAT (them trying to talk me into something) stress me either.
I’m learning a new “language”–it’s called NO–I form my lips and say this “magic word” and presto! I’m not sure why I never learned this word before, it is really an ALL-PURPOSE word and can be used to make stress go away. Great discovery really! LOL
Yea, the cat hostage video was pretty funny, actually. LOL
Good for you for filing the contempt papers. Yea, it will make him mad, but OH WELL. (I say that phrase so often my parrot has picked it up). Don’t you know those people at the family courts are tired of dealing with Ps? I bet 2/3s of the people or more that they have to deal with are Ps, as the non-Ps cooperate with each other to raise their children. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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Rosa says:
“The truth-when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person look bad-especially when the innocent person is honest and admits his mistakes. The basic assumption that the truth lies between the testimony of the two sides always shifts the advantage to the lying side and away from the side telling the truth. Under most circumstances, this shift put together with the fact that the truth is going to also be twisted in such a way as to bring detriment to the innocent person, results in the advantage always resting in the hands of liars-psychopaths.”
This is one of the scariest aspects of psychopaths, as far as I am concerned. Especially if you are going up against one in our legal/judicial system.
P.S. Psychopaths can pass lie detector tests, so we should not beat ourselves up too much about being lyed to.
But when I do catch someone in a lie, or when someone is not what they “present” themself to be, the first thing that runs through my mind is always, “What else are they lying about?”
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James says:
Rosa,
I found this concerning Drew Peterson and him taking a Lie detector test. Thought you might want to read it.
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news.....graph.html
And yes, whenever anyone lies to me my first thought would be “What else are they capable of lying about?”
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Rosa says:
James:
I’ll never forget the first time I saw Drew Peterson on TV. His wife, Stacy, had just gone missing. I remember him standing in front of the TV news cameras and microphones as calm as can be saying that she “probably ran off with another man.”
It is unbelievable what they think they can get away with when they reach that “point of no return.”
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James says:
I heard another thing he told people who were looking for Stacy that they were looking in the wrong place and should be looking on the beach. Suggesting she was with someone on a beach enjoying herself with a drink in hand..
Sorry to say but I really don’t like this guy that much!
Another thing I been thinking about is his claim about her running away. If Stacy was afraid of them (which I believe is true) he is now in prison sitting on a 10 mil bond. Why wouldn’t Stacy come back now? She would be safe with him in prison. I guess we all know the answer to that one, God forgive me but I really don’t like this guy!!!
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James says:
update:
“If Stacy was afraid of them”
should be “If Stacy was afraid of him”… sorry
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henry says:
about humans being lousy lie dectectors – this is something I read many months ago that has stuck with me and I will share it again…….[It is emotionaly impossible to simultaneously feel pity yet suspect deciet at the same time, the mind can only do one or the other] considering how expert they are with the pity ploys they know this and use it too their advantage…to cover up their lies – in other words keep us confused and confined.
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Rosa says:
Henry:
“It is emotionally impossible to simultaneously feel pity yet suspect deceit at the same time, the mind can only do one or the other.”
These days, I suspect deceit first, then I feel pity. It used to be the other way around.
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henry says:
ditto
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Rosa says:
James:
Stacy’s disappearance coupled with Kathleen Savio’s “drowning” in a dry bathtub was just too much to stomach.
The police in that community did a less-than-thorough job on that case.
It is the same way in my town. Girls have disappeared from night clubs here, never to be seen again. The police here cannot solve their way out of a paper bag.
When I see what the detectives in metropolitan areas like NYC can do, it is a joke because the contrast is so great.
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Tobadtosad says:
All this has happen to a friend of mine and she doesnt see it Why do all the other people around her. Say He going to try this time, He going to get better, and he almost died and maybe hell learn,And what funny about it Her daughter just broke up with a guy and the mother is telling her how she should handle it And she cant get her own life together What up with that This is my first time on this site and new on a pc. But after I readed all these stories He not just a drunk No work bum Got her in dept.and now dhe trying again When do they see?/ I would love for her to see this site But she mad at me now But he had something to do with it Im sure But them again she could called. See, I think some times they like to be needed this way. Because if she keeps doing It make her feel waited. and then she know were he at all the time. She knows about the lies and ect. Its been ten years now. and when she tells her daughter what to do. If she can tell her daughter what to do Why cant she do it? And I think she know that I was going to say something about it, As to say Why dont you do that for yourself. I guess she is as needy as he is. Ill miss her as a friend, But I wont be the first to call . Shell have to go thought her own hell. Because she wont have me to cry on But like I saieded before I could label him But after reading here I know what he all about But ones like him can have her kids family believing him. They will find out and I hope her daughters (3) will not follow in there mothers footed steps Sorry know spell check
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Rune says:
Tobadtosad: Welcome to the site, and to your PC. I hope you can get your friend to come read some of these articles. If she sees how scary these other stories are, maybe she will harder at her own life.
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James says:
Welcome TobadTosad.
PC’s take a bit to get use to so I hope that doesn’t slow you down too much.
LF (LoveFraud) is a great place for information and meeting people who understand how much harder it can be to understand those who are involve with s/p (Sociopaths/Personality disorder) or those of us that were involved in a relationship with one. Anyway welcome again!
you can put a smiley face on your entry by pressing the key : and then ) key but with no spaces.
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Done says:
I had a little epiphany today…it seemed so obvious I don’t know why I never thought of it before.
My S lied about everything…big lies, little lies. For some reason after it was over and he was exposed, I didn’t believe the “i love you” lie anymore, but still believed all the lies about it being my fault, and all the things he would turn around on me so it seemed like it was my fault–The things he said that made me question my own sanity and that ate away at my self esteem.
Then this morning on my jog I thought-”If all the good lies weren’t real…then all the bad statements must have been lies too.”
So logical, don’t know why I never saw it that way before.
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Rosa says:
Done: Good for you!
They really are masterful liars. But, then again, that is all they know how to do. It’s like Kentucky Fried Chicken.
They do one thing, and they do it well.
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Tobadtosad says:
James thank you I didnt get it yet But I will try later I cant talk to my friend he got her to be home at the right time and watches what she does But then again if I really was her friend she would call me.Even if it were at work What these people dont think about is what they do to the people that love them One minute they are going to leave and you there to help and the next they are going to stay and they are going to work things out. But It hurt the person who help them And after they have done to help them It makes alot easier for the SP to come back to a better life. I think that the person who goes with a SP Has people do things and know that they are going to go back with them My friend had her father fits her car Because the SP wouldnt do it But that what he suppose to do for a living,Now she using the car to drive him around, I think she used her family to get the things that he wont do. Why do these people keeping doing things for these people. And believeing that this guy she shacking up with Will chance, I see it Why cant they?I think these people dont know how they hurt the peole that help them. I know it wont happen here again Maybe shell learn some day But as long as people are there to help them, And they keep going back with the stuff you help them with,Your time, car, heart and friendship. And I dont think shell ever learn Because she keeps thinking he going to change and its been 10 years.Her folks keep helping her to help him so it will be in her life for along time. Im sorry for the people who end up with a Sp But if you arent really going to leave or have doubt. Maybe it best not to get your friends familyhelping you when doen deep you know you will be going back, It hurt these people too and we all know what happen, Make up sex is the best and over and over , While the people are worried and hurting because you were there for them and there are going to have a good life intil it happens again Now I know why people told me not to help out That I was the one who was going to be hurt, And that wont happen again For anyone. Im sorry because maybe someone who really need the help. Have a good night I mess up Oh well Ill learn I hope
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James says:
Tobadtosad
People who help those that don’t really appreciate it or doesn’t help them to become independent themselves are what we call enablers. This become a cycle. Like an alcoholic in a way. Both parties change roles from being the abuser and victim (if I getting it right?)
[short version]
The enabler (victim) get mad at the abuser for drinking then the alcoholic (abuser) gets mad at the enabler and hits her. She then calls the police (rescuer) and they arrest him and brings him to jail. The next day the enabler bails (rescuer) out the abuser (victim) and the enabler spends all day (abuser) telling him how she can’t take his drinking anymore and will leave him (victim). But the abuser knows she (enabler/rescuer) will never leave him and then tells her he will change and begs for forgiveness. She believes this because it’s his drinking that’s the problem and then things do go alright until the next cycle (drinking/abuse) repeats it’s self.
This is a dysfunctional relationship which effects the whole family; children family members and the community. Some people will stay in this dysfunctional relationships all their life’s. The only true victims here are the children who will themselves grow up and may have dysfunctional relationships themselves and/or have a drug problem.
I hope this helps but I would suggest researching enablers and those that suffer from being co-depended.
Have a good day!
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Tilly says:
HA HA ROSA!! YOU CRACK ME UP!
James:
Enabler: They enable because they have an investment in the way the other person behaves. i.e. whether or not it is conscious or not doesn’t matter…they still enable because there is an advantage for them in the other person behaving that way.
Usually that advantage is that they never have to look at themselves because they are so preoccupied with the other person.
Once they become conscious of this it very difficult to sustain enabling.
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Tilly says:
N.B. This enabling is not the same as living with a psychopath. Living with a psychopath is usually because the other person is ignorant of the fact that psychopaths are like aliens. Unlike other human beings their primary purpose is to exploit everyone around them for their own pleasure and also because they do not have the capacity for empathy.
Being in a relationship with a psychopath is like standing opposite someone is who is dressed in a singlet and shorts and saying to them over and over again: ” “give me your t – shirt, you promised me you would give me your t shirt!” .
They cannot give you a t shirt because they do not have one and they never have owned one or even seen one.
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Tilly says:
P.S. Psychopath have seen pictures of T shirts and if you stay around long enough they will convince you that their singlet is a t shirt and then strangle you with it.
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Rosa says:
Tilly:
You crack Me up!!
You are the “Thunder from Down-Under”. Now I know where that phrase comes from.
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James says:
Tilly
Good point and I thought abut that as well but Tobadtosad is new so I didn’t want to throw too much infor at once. But true, enablers/co-depended people do that so that they don’t really have to look at themselves and see they are part of the problem not the solution… Good point and thanks for pointing that out!
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James says:
Tilly,
“They cannot give you a t shirt because they do not have one and they never have owned one or even seen one.”
LOL!
Cool way to look at it!!!
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