Sociopaths are filled with empty promises that never turn into healing action.
PDF Recently, I ended up in the hospital twice over a short period of time. (Which accounts for why I have not posted here in awhile.) The first stay was to have surgery to remove my gallbladder. The second was a week later when they had to perform an additional procedure to remove the stones that were left behind.
The man in my life was there. He supported me. Held my hand when I was in pain, rubbed my back. He drove me to hospital. He spoke with the doctors. Involved himself in my health care when I was too sick to care to ask the questions I needed to ask. He ensured I was well cared for, ensured I had what I needed to recover. He came to visit me in hospital. Sometimes I’d awaken and find him sitting by my bed, reading the newspaper, holding my hand. He brought me what I needed and when it was time to come home, he picked me up and tucked me into bed at home. He cared.
What a different reality than the surreal world of being with the sociopath. When with the sociopath, I had to have knee surgery at one point in our relationship. He promised to drive me to the hospital, and never appeared. I took a cab. He promised to pick me up and bring me home from hospital and I had to call a girlfriend to come and get me as they wouldn’t let me take a cab by myself (which I was insistent I could do). Whenever I was sick, he’d promise to bring me ginger ale and I’d go thirsty. He’d promise to take care of me, and find 1,001 excuses for why he couldn’t turn up. And I let him off the hook every single time.
The reality was, his words were empty promises that never translated into healing action. And in my blind faith, my misplaced love, I’d deceive myself into believing his inaction was not his fault. I’d make the unacceptable acceptable by telling myself, ‘it’s okay. He’s got lots on his mind. He’s busy. I shouldn’t feel hurt by his inattention. He loves me.’
To quote Sir Walter Scott, ‘Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.’
In that relationship I desperately wanted to believe what he was expressing was love. I desperately wanted to believe he was my shortcut to happiness and so I convinced myself his inaction was not important. His assertions of undying love were what counted most. Truth is, lost on the road to hell, I was blinded from the truth of what he was doing and what was happening to me because I was fixated on believing he was my Knight in Shining Armor and couldn’t see he was truly the Prince of Darkness.
In healing from that debacle I know, promises mean nothing unless followed up with action. All the empty promises in the world cannot make dreams come true. Empty promises cannot turn up in times of need, they cannot rub an aching back or hold a trembling hand. Empty promises cannot be filled with love.
Once upon a time, I gave my heart to a man who was untrue. He is gone. In healing, I have opened my arms wide to the joy of loving a man who turns up when he says he will and is there in times of need. I am blessed.
written by M.L. Gallagher • Permalink •
tmassar says:
It’s Sunday – ugh. Day 2 alone in my new place. I had a decent day yesterday, I went out with a friend last night, that really saved me. But here in my apartment (I miss my house, I miss my town) i’m SO LONELY. I miss the companionship, even just knowing someone else is around. I KNOW i will get over this, I know I will, I just dread so much of what lies ahead – contact with him to divorce, and then the ultimate realization that it’s OVER. I wish I could fast-forward a year..
I feel so guilty – I know I shouldn’t. I feel like, he admitted he has these problems and I know he’s struggling with them, but I’m not there to help him anymore. I HATE that I have caused him pain. And I know how bad this sounds, given the pain he has caused me. I enabled so much for so long.
My current confusion is compounded by the fact that I don’t know how he is regarding this current separation. Before I left the house, while packing, he called from his office to say good-bye and he said to me ‘we’ll be in touch, you can call anytime.’ I’m thinking – are you INSANE? You want to separate and you think I’m going to call you..?! I mean of course we need to talk eventually in order to divorce, but is he thinking that this is simply a separation and that we might get together again, or does he know this is the end?
I don’t think he himself knows, but I really don’t KNOW what he is thinking. I am AFRAID of being rejected by him. How crazy is this – i still want him to love me and want me. WHY????? I guess because I still love him – will I always? We all, on this blog, know that it is not enough. There is no malice left in him – he is simply sad that he is who he is – and this is just a killer for me.
I took my wedding ring off. I am making plans for my future. I’ll just wait for this turmoil within to pass.
Ariadne you’re right – i know what you mean about the nodding like he’s taking notes – he wouldn’t commit to divorce, wouldn’t commit to therapy – nothing, just internalizing everything & shutting me out. Nobody can live like that. Even when he suggested separating, he was so desperate to make sure I was in agreement, so that HE couldn’t be held fully responsible for it..
Ach the hell with it. 13 years of my life. This is a sign of how hooked I am on this hell: my WORST FEAR right now is that, now that he’s recognizing his enormous issues – for the first time being forced to accept and face them – that he WILL work on them and that someone else will be the beneficiary of his improved self, and not me. I should HOPE for that, for his sake. But right now i’m feeling too selfish and self-pitying!
This post is all over the place, guess I need a bit more distance from the whole situation. I don’t know what to expect right now.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Tmassar ((((hugs))))))
You sound like you are pretty “normal” to me given the situation. I would bet a silver dollar that every one of us here has felt pretty much like your above post…”all over the place.”
I also imagine your emotions will be all over the place as well, which is “normal’ too…my suggestion is to keep (for the moment) as busy with other things as you can so that you don’t go on “emotional overload”—take the emotions, but gradually, a little at a time.
It is sort of like being told that you have to EAT AN ELEPHANT—the task seems impossible, but if you take it ONE BITE AT A TIME, you can eventually get it all down! If you try to swallow it in one bite it will choke you. So take the emotions SLOWLY, not all in one big swoop—try to stay in the NOW as much as you can too.
God bless and hang on! ((((hugs)))))
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tmassar says:
Thanks for the hugs, needed that..!!
So bizarre – i just spoke to my sister, who is in fact a pscyhologist herself – she doesn’t know my ex very well, but as I’ve been opening up to her more & more, and telling the truth about my relationship, she has been pegging it for what it is. Just today, she said to me, bottom line is, you are dealing with a sociopath !! Can you imagine my shock at hearing someone utter these words. Even as I’ve been here writing & reading for months now.
She reiterated what we all know: he knows the right things to say, and sometimes the right things to do, but he doesn’t FEEL it. He can’t. This is tragic of course, but also not fair to expect that I make a relationships work under these conditions. He means me no harm but he also won’t ever be what I need. He can’t give unconditionally. I’m having a ‘lightbulb’ moment – actually recognizing this and BELIEVING it. Need to keep on this path…
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OxDrover says:
Tmasssar,
I am glad that you had a light bulb moment, they are really good for the soul, and that your sister was able to validate your assessment.
Your one comment that “he means me no harm” may not be right however, as many (most) socio/psychopaths DO mean harm in order to get what THEY want regardless of the cost to you. As long as you are in any “relationship” with him, even in one where you are “splitting the blanket” do not allow yourself to “feel sorry for him” because if you do, HE WILL REAR UP AND BITE YOU IN THE A$$.
BE ON YOUR GUARD…do not let your guard down, he will suck you into his trap and slam the door. I realize that there are different “degrees” of socio/psychopathology but NONE OF THEM IS BENIGN.
In all of them, YOU are viewed as an object to get their desires, and if and when you start to split the property, look out. If there is a way, please seek legal counsel QUICKLY and PROTECT YOURSELF legally NOW. Otherwise you may find later that he has legally financially raped you andn there will be no recourse for you at a later time.
I know this is a lot to think of during an emotional crisis, but at the same time, I am sure there are others here who will second my warnings.
Good luck and God bless.
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LilOrphan says:
“I guess because I still love him – will I always?”
“Now that he’s recognizing his enormous issues – for the first time being forced to accept and face them – that he WILL work on them and that someone else will be the beneficiary of his improved self, and not me.”
TMasser, all of these feelings are totally normal. Wish I could say they fly on the wings of angels quickly…but if I’m any indication, they don’t .
Integration is good, though. Can you integrate the fact that you will always love him, possibly? This is a place of difficulty for me. I have never felt that way about anyone else in my life, and so to me that equates forever. It means so much more to me I think because I still sometimes feel he is my soul mate, the person who is here to challenge my comfort levels, and mine his, for both our souls’ higher purpose.
“I feel like I’m waiting for him to fail so I can just close the door for good, with a good reason. This can’t be right. This isn’t fair to him, despite how unfair he’s been to me in the past. Am I wrong?”
Well, yes, and no. Really. No, if his actions have hurt you terribly in the past and you’re seeing signs of that same behavior. And yes if you want things to work out.
What you are doing is hedging your bets. It’s also normal when someone has hurt you in the past. Just letting them in is a painful, scary experience, and yet you do it because you love them and want them in your life.
BUT…you may also create a self-fulfilling prophecy to some degree. If you keep this mindset and your heart feeling that way, then if things do go wrong, even if his were 50 percent or more of the issues, you will blame yourself for being closed-off and waiting for the other shoe to fall.
Even if he does proceed to D&D you and it’s a clear-cut case of him doing the same old, same old.
Also, if he really is sincere you are not giving your heart to the situation and allowing things to proceed naturally.
I won’t tell you what to do, but it’s all very tough when your own heart has been wrapped-up in someone for so much time, such an investment. And if you are fairly certain that is what he is, there really isn’t any hope he will change.
After this go-round, I do know that if I had it to do all over again, I’d give it the best try possible so it really had a chance, for my own peace of mind.
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gillian says:
tmassar,
I haven’t had much time to post lately and I don’t have much time now; I haven’t even read to the very end of this thread yet. I want to say though that one thing I realized–a few months ago, when–on the morning after a day in which my S soon-to-be-ex-husband had so convincingly and seemingly sincerely told me how deeply he wanted to come home, how much he had changed, how much work he yet had to do–I inadvertently discovered he was still seeing the woman he had all along been planning on up and leaving me for–is that with these people, EVERYTHING IS A MANIPULATION.
I really got it that day. I had so wanted to believe everything he had been saying. I didn’t want to get to that lonely place, the place you are talking about, the place where I’m living too.
This morning I scribbled down some words in which I compared myself to a child who’d been abandoned by its seemingly-loving mother. And, actually, even if the mother had been obviously abusive, that child would be devastated if the mother were taken away.
Because what else then is that child left with? Certainly others, objectively can see that the child is better off. But the child itself is so bereft of everything that anchored its existance. The succor, no matter how fake, the nurture, no matter how phony, had been what was sustaining the child emotionally in its young life.
We are no longer children, but emotionally many of us here came to depend on, count on, lean on, our socio husbands. We believed in them, we trusted them, we thought we’d spend the rest of our lives with them–these men who once seemed so perfect–and when they are gone, no matter how hideous we find out they actually are, their absence leaves an incredible void.
An enormous howling vacuum. And so we want to call them. We want to talk to them. We want to work things out. We want them to rub our feet, rake their fingers through our hair, make love to us, comfort us, cuddle us, all those lovely things they once did, all those lovely things that all human beings, no matter their age, so deeply want.
And without that we flounder and bargain and try to find ways to make all we had be real. We want to fix the relationship, we want to reconcile, we want our old lives back; more than anything else we want to believe, because to do otherwise is so agonizingly painful.
And yet, ultimately, we realize that, to save ourselves, we can’t. We are never going to fix them; they are unfixable. All they can do is make their sincere-sounding promises, make some feeble attempts that are only designed to uphold their image and prove to the world–including maybe themselves–that they really tried. They really really tried, they’ll say to anyone who will listen, and we all know that’s bullshit. They never tried at all; all they did and all they ever will do is take take take. And the better they can make themselves appear to the world, the more they can get away with taking.
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OxDrover says:
Orphan,
QUOTE: I do know that if I had it to do all over again, I’d give it the best possible try so it really had a chance…”
Do you really REALLY think, even in the back of your soul, that there is ANYTHING YOU COULD HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY to make a different outcome with your relationship to the P?
What would it take for you to decide that HE DID NOT LOVE YOU, no matter how much you loved him?
What would it take for you to decide that he did not have YOUR best interest at heart?
What would it take for you to decide that he was not who he pretended he was, that the fantasy-man you were/are in love with didn’t exist any more than SANTA CLAUS does?
I don’t agree that Tmassar WILL blame herself for the situation. Sometimes people do “blame themselves” but it is not LOGICAL or RATIONAL, but more of the FOG, the swallowing the BLAME THEY PUT ON US which is FALSE PROJECTION, not truth.
If you are dealing with a “normal” person, maybe some of this would be true…but not with a P. And if it ACTS like a Psychopath, as far as I am concerned IT IS A PSYCHOPATH.
NO ONE will ABUSE us UNLESS WE LET THEM, BUT ALSO NO ONE WILL ABUSE US unless they Choose to do so. We do not make them abuse us, or discount us, or our feelings.
WE DO NOT deserve to be treated like garbage—if someone treats us like garbage–psychopath or not–we are not required to “give them another chance” to do it again. The best indicator by far of future behavior is PAST BEHAVIOR. Patterns of past behavior. A “one time episode” out of “character” is one thing, but a PATTERN OF BAD BEHAVIOR, is another thing entirely.
When we recognize a PATTERN OF BAD BEHAVIOR it is up to US to CALL A HALT to it. Crap on me once, shame on you, crap on me repeatedly SHAME ON ME!
As my late husband used to say,
“It is bad enough when they crap on my head, but it is TOO much when they slide down my nose to wipe their butt!” (He had SUCH a way with words, God rest his soul and his twiste sense of humor! LOL)
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LilOrphan says:
Yikes, OxD. I think you read me wrong. I wasn’t suggesting she would feel blame….I was just describing that her feelings were normal and sometimes led to self-blame if she already feels she is waiting for him to fail.
As far as me, I have to know in life that I did everything I could in situations with people who matter to me. In this case, I didn’t.
Without huge detail, I saw him begin to pull away, act different, and I ran away. Then fabricated this whole situation in order to hurt him. I just disappeared like he used to do. Up until then, he was still actively participating and trying — although he was starting to show CP signs. He knows he’s CP and was trying to work on it, over time.
I made matters much worse than just a simple Houdini or D&D on his end, by not simply waiting until Elvis left the building himself. Because of my actions, I’m left feeling bad. This part is not ABOUT HIM. It was about how I behaved. We both know only we have control over our actions and I just flipped out totally because I was panicking. If I had waited and he had left, it would still hurt, but I wouldn’t feel regret for my actions.
Would the end result have been the same? Well, based on past behavior between us, yes.
Was he really trying to change? It seemed that way, but I can’t say for certain.
But again, my behavior caused my regrets. Regardless of what he was doing, I panicked and acted out of character.
Does he love me? Well, according to the last time I saw him, months after I ran, HE SAID HE DID NOT. So I have to take his word on that. And again, that has no bearing on my own feelings about what I did and didn’t do.
I didn’t create boundaries, either. I am very aware of the things he did and didn’t do, but that does not excuse the things I did and didn’t do, too, does it?
I do have to grow, and the only way to do that is to work on the only person I can – Me.
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tmassar says:
Hi again (sorry for posting so much today – it’s one of those days, i’m in serious revelation mode here – going back to the office tomorrow, thank god!)
Anyway – LilOrphan – I know what you’re saying – it’s hard not to self-blame certainly, especially when you do things that you regret in the midst of the whole mess. I actually hissed at my ex IN PUBLIC when I found him about to meet up with the other woman he vowed he was no longer seeing socially! He ended up making me regret I had ever raised the subject – I “traumatized” him by getting angry at that – it was my fault! Never mind how it made me feel! And it’s true – i HATE that I did that, i wish i had been calm and waited for an appropriate moment to bring up the subject. But i didn’t, and you know what? Too bad – I make mistakes too, and I don’t deserve to be punished for them forever.
But you guys, get this – I just had a long talk with a close friend of mine who lives far away now. She’s actually a psychoanalyst, and we all used to be neighbours. She said my ex once confessed to her that he’d had a “psychotic break” (he attempted suicide once after having paranoid delusions that someone was trying to destroy his career) – so he actually KNOWS what his problem is. But of course, you can’t fix it. And a psychotic break means he has a psychotic personality. I know I’m supposed to know all this by now, but it is clarifying SO MUCH for me.
She said there are basically two options left for him – suicide, if he has another breakdown now that I’m gone, or he will simply build himself up again into the delusional life to survive. She actually suggested he NEEDS to do the latter to survive. Holy crap this is sad stuff. But I will not fix him, especially if he doesn’t want to be “fixed.” He won’t commit suicide – he’ll probably get involved with the other woman quickly & find a way to rework our marriage in his mind so that it’s as much my fault as his that it fell apart.
I’m feeling more liberated, even though this still sucks.
Lilorphan – i didn’t set boundaries either – live and learn – you will do that next time around. You also didn’t ASK to be abused and most people are able to respect boundaries so that you don’t HAVE to set them – that’s far more healthy. There’s always plenty of blame to go around, but isn’t this part of the problem, that these men turned us into people we did not want to be, because if we’d been ourselves, there’s no way we could have accepted them…
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OxDrover says:
Sorry if I read you wrong, dear! You know me, open mouth and insert foot, but I interpreted your post to mean that you we accepting “blame” for his behaivor and feeling that if you’d only tried a bit harder…etc. SORRY
I know we all “do things out of character” when the “crazies” hit us from the pain. God knows that I sure did…using a physical example of “pain” once I fell down some brick stairs and actually hit my shin hard enough to crack it. The pain was AWFUL and a beloved friend was with me and reached down to help me up, and I screamed like a RABID dog, “DON’T YOU DARE TOUCH ME!” HOW TWISTED IS THAT!?!
I won’t even go to where I reacted to my own pain this past chaotic episode—it is a wonder I have any friends or family that still loves me (I don’t count the P ones as they never loved me) LOL
Yes, I agree that the feelings that she experssed are definitely “normal” and she may start blaming herself (that seems to be pretty usual, and the Good Lord knows I blamed myself plenty) I think I was the “self flagilation” queen of the central US and 5 Atlantic states.
Accepting though, that if I had been “Ms. Perfection USA” as mother, daughter, and girlfriend, it would not have changed one iota of how things went with the Ps. It was only self preservation that released me, and that desire on my part ENRAGED them.
I hope that you can overcome your regrets Orphan. You, like most of us “did the best we could” to make an unworkable sitaution workable, we “gave over and beyond ” the “call of duty” BECAUSE WE WERE CAPABLE OF LOVING them. Forgive yourself, for not being “perfect” and accept that you are human, a GOOD HUMAN, if my opinion matters, and a caring, loving human.
I know that I have said things to my Ps for no other purpose than to hurt them (even if what I said WAS the truth) and the awful part is, it FAILED to do so–so not only did I do something I “regret” and “out of character for me” but it didn’t even accomplish the purpose because they didn’t care enough about me to BE hurt. The only thing I have ever done that actually DID ‘hurt” them was NC and that was simply a by-product from SURVIVAL for me, not intentionally TO hurt them.
I guess too, you tripped my trigger a bit in your advice to Tmassar because I can envision him behind her back, getting all their joint assets into a pile (which, while they a re still married he can legally do) and hiding it, saying that he lost it at the Casino in his depression, and laughing behind her back while he has hidden the assets. Call me a pessimist if you will—or a cynic or just a “veteran” of the P-wars, but I don’t trust them not to do the most nasty thing imaginable and some things that even I couldn’t imagine.
Right before I wrote the one tto you I had just posted to “Bookworm” and the woman is hurting so badly and he promises her he will give her her money back—Yea, RIGHT!
All she wants is JUSTICE and all she is likely to get if the P follows the “usual” course is another stab in the back. Sorry about the rant–anyway, do hope I didn’t offend you! (((hugs))))
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OxDrover says:
Tmassar,
Keep in mind too, that his “psychotic break” and “suicide” attempt may have all been a fake, too….Ps will do that sometimes…to get sympathy.
I’m glad that you are getting some clarification though about “what he IS” (BAD NEWS).
We all have things we regret, but beating yourself up (like I did and many of us have) is not logical, reasonable or helpful and the sooner we can get over those feelings the better off we are–because NOTHING we did “caused” any of what happened. Though of course they want us to think it did. But our emotions are not always (ever?) logical, reasonable or helpful. LOL Especially after being worked over for X# of months/years by the Ps.
I guess today I am on one of my “lock the bastards away on Devil’s island and surround the place with great white sharks all 100 ft. long!” Kicks. LOL
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alohatraveler says:
Tmasser,
First of all, I LOVE YOUR SISTER. Getting some validation can excellerate your recovery and be key to accepting that he is a Sociopath.
Second… your big talk sounds like the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. Notice how all his confessions are designed to make you feel bad and then he closes with saying that you need to separate? HELLO! You left him, remember? He feels like a caged animal? (he is implying that you are controlling.. and it made you feel bad.. perfect.) See how you are filling up with compassion for the porr dear and you feel so bad for hurting him? This is a classic manipulation. He just turned the entire thing around on you. He told you all the things you told him about himself? DING DING DING!!!!
This heartfelt conversation was a crock of sh*t designed to make you doubt yourself for making him feel so bad about himself. This is so classic. My dear, you fell for it all judging by your post. He made YOU feel bad for hurting HIM!
Pay attention. This was one of those moments that played out like a scene from a movie and in a surprise twist… you are the villian, not him. He got EXACTLY what he wanted out of you. You are now entering the TWILIGHT ZONE!
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!
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alohatraveler says:
I believe that having compassion for people who abuse, disrespect, destroy etc. us is a BOUNDARY ISSUE.
Why do we think we need to have compassion for all people no matter how they treat us?
This is a tiny bit off subject but I think it ties over…
I just heard a GREAT quote from an interview of the guy who wrote: The Gift of Fear. It was on his DateLine interview when he was talking about stalkers.
He said, “A man that won’t let go choses a woman who can’t say “No.”
BINGO! Boundary Issue.
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LilOrphan says:
“You also didn’t ASK to be abused and most people are able to respect boundaries so that you don’t HAVE to set them – that’s far more healthy.
Is this true when it comes to romantic relationships with men? (Note the utter absence of experience on my part.) I always think that with women friends it’s true, but even with my kids and family I see where setting some boundaries works best. I used to believe that quote – that healthy people do not need to have everything spelled-out for them and lines all drawn-up.
Can someone provide input, please?
Aloha:
Why do we think we need to have compassion for all people no matter how they treat us?
Well, speaking only for me, it just happens. I have zero capacity to stay angry. When I’m not angry, then I just naturally feel compassion for people who I care about. There are times it seems beneficial to be able to “call up” old hurts or grudges, to remind myself. But it doesn’t happen that way.
Maybe the deeper question is: why do I care? But then again, the only answer I would have is that I just DO. I feel psychically connected to the people I love (and I don’t mean in a Miss Cleo way). Have always just been this way as long as I can remember.
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OxDrover says:
Thanks for chiming in Aloha…good post! I agree 110%!
Orphan, I think you are not “exercising” your own POWER and CONTROL over YOURSELF as much as Possible, because I think, from your post that you don’t SEE it is “possible.”
Anger is a NATURAL response to being hurt. Somehow you have convinced yourself, I think, that anger is “not good” and you suppress it or kill it, or maybe deny it or cover it up. I’m not sure what you do with it, but FEELING it in response to hurt/injury is Normal, so what you are doing is therefore NOT normal. The rest of us have problems with TOO much anger or holding on to it too long and you seem to have a problem with TOO LITTLE anger. I’m not sure what it is, but there seems to be something going on here…ideas anyone?
As for most people just “naturally” respecting boundaries without you having to VERBALLY and specifficly set them, that’s true I think. I also think that people who have to have you FREQUENTLY verbally set boundaries are very TIRING to associate with. At least for me, setting those boundaries is energy using that I would rather not do. Maybe after I get more practice in on doing that it won’t require so much energy to do it. Right now, each boundary that I set successfully is a great “atta girl!” for me but does take energy, but fortunately, too, I’m getting more energy each day it seems.
AT the very least, having to set boundaries is irritating, and that takes away enjoyment of a relationship that otherwise might be pleasant. Maybe that is why we enjoy some people so much we never have to set those boundaries and we can use the relationship energy pleasantly instead of negatively. Two year olds and teenagers require continual boundary setting and I definitely remember HOW TIRING that was! Ten year olds don’t require so many boundaries and they are my favorite age of children! They are not continually challenging your boundaries either, they are curious, want to learn and so much fun!
That made me kind of flash on why my son and I like to do the living history demos for the middle school instead of the high school, is that the kids are SO interested at 10-11 yrs old, and pretty much dis-interested in the 15-6 yr old age range and just view the demos as a bunch of not-cool old folks dressed funny! LOL They’re much more interested in “preening” for the opposite sex. Which of course is a normal and natural stage in the kids’ development, but frustrating if you want any appreciation from your audience!
Orphan, while I too try to treat others as I want to be treated, there are those people who will NOT LET you do that. In trying to respect other’s boundaries, I expect others to respect mine, and sometimes if they don’t, if there comes a point when they INSIST in crossing my boundaries, I have to take a STAND that I really dont want to have to do, and wouldn’t want someone to do that to me, but because I respect other’s boundaries they wouldn’t have to.
Also, there are those people who resent having boundaries set for them, and aren’t interested in respecting them. They may respect them because you have the “upper hand” but not because they value you. That’s frustrating. Of course the Ps seem to LOOK FOR BOUNDARIES TO CROSS AND STOMP DOWN and blame you for being so selfish as to impose a boundary…after all it is YOUR fault you know! LOL
A
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LilOrphan says:
I do “feel” in response to being hurt. Oh, boy, do I! And I do get angry, sometimes overly angry for a situation, I think. And I do express it with most people (wasn’t really good at that with him, though).
But I cannot STAY angry, OxD, for any length of time. At anyone. Ever. It’s not a sustainable emotion for me. I can fake it, if you like.
Just kidding, really, because I couldn’t fake it.
I get mad – voice it – get over it in about ten minutes.
Was raised without boundaries, for the most part. Certainly wasn’t allowed to have my own, but if someone tells me not to do something that bothers them, I really try to listen and understand.
Did you have success the other day, in enforcing your boundary?
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LilOrphan says:
PS: Thanks for the input, Free. Your post made a lot of sense to me.
In what ways did these people push your boundaries? Can you provide specific examples? I’m really trying to understand the creation of boundaries, what is normal treatment to expect from others, etc. It probably sounds like a silly question, but please explain more.
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OxDrover says:
Yes, I did, I think I told about it, maybe on another thread. I was so proud of myself my right arm is sore from slapping myself on the back…LOL
Well, it sounds like you are handling anger in a healthier manner than maybe I am. LOL I have to FIGHT to get rid of the anger, to WORK on letting it go…
When I was raised/reared? whatever the word is, I was NOT allowed to have boundaries, but others were. So I had difficulty setting boundaries within the family. I wasn’t supposed to have boundaries outside the family either, for fear I would hurt someone’s feelings, but I did IMPROVE on that, but when someone was inside the “circle of trust” (became “family”) it was difficult to IMPOSSIBLE for me to set and enforce boundaries….especially if me setting a boundary for Person-A would upset person-B. I have realized that in a back handed way person B was “approving” of or putting more approval on person A than they were on me. It seemed okay with person B for person A to abuse me and I was not supposed to “raise any flack” about it. DUH. If I set a boundary, I was the one being “bad”—hurting the other person’s feelings by setting a boundary.
I got better, but not enough—as I worried all the time, AGONIZED over setting a boundary for anyone that was even remotely connected to someone I loved…I just “assumed” that I had some sort of problem and they didn’t. I CHOKED it down, bit my tongue, was miserable and unhappy, but didn’t realize what was happening enough to STOP it.
I think yesterday was the first time I have actually been able to set a FIRM boundary and NOT FEEL BAD AT MYSELF about it. Quite frankly, if this person does NOT accept my boundary they can take a flying leap.
Constantly HAVING to set boundaries though is energy depeleting –sort of like “riding herd on a two year old” or a teenager who is continually pushing to see where the boundaries are, or trying to push them back. It takes a lot of enjoyment out of a relationship that otherwise might be there if you weren’t having to be vigilent in watching and enforcing the boundaries. It sparks constant irritation, frustration, and anger–at least in me. At some point, the continually having to be hypervigilent and rock solid may make the relationship not worth the hassle. I have had to set boundaries on this “friendship” more than once, and I had hoped that the current trend of not pushing boundaries might continue, but it obviously didn’t, and wasn’t something I could just “over look” and put down to petty crap…I had to take a stand or risk my dog getting killed by his dog which he was not keeping control of (the dog kills other small animals) So I had to set a firm foot down–control your dog OR ELSE I will control the situation.
I used to tell my kids “I think you need an attitude adjustment, do you want to adjust your attitude or do you want me to adjust it for you?” They usually chose to adjust it for themselves. LOL Even now my sons will say to me by way of a joke “Don’t make me stop this car!” LOL
Those things are so funny. I also used to tell them if they were misbehaving “I’m going to count to three” and they would immediately stop what they were doing and say “Oh,PLEASE DON’T COUNT!” I never got past one, and they had NO idea what would happen if I did, and neither did I. LOL I never did figure out why that worked so well and brought them to “heel’ you would have thought I had threatened them with some big STICK. LOL To this day the boys and I joke about “countin” and they always respond with “Oh, please don’t count!” LOL
Looking back on my boy’s early childhoods we had SO MUCH FUN, and I enjoyed every stage of their development, it was such a joy to watch them learn language, social interactions, to read and write, all the things that kids do. The curiosity and inventiveness of kids up to puberty. I guess in someways that “honeymoon” period with my P son kept me in the loop after the ABUSE started with him, and kept me HOPING we could have that kind of relationship again–fun and laughs. He is so bright and can be SO charming and fun, and interesting….if he just wasn’t a monster. I’m just glad that not only I saw what a monster he is but that his brothers also saw and have given up the malignant hope that he is going to come home and be fun to be around again. I don’t think my mom will ever give up that malignant hope, or her anger at me for exposing him…her level of denial is greater than mine ever was or could be and I don’t think she will ever be able to let go of it. What really hurt was when I realized that she had begun to engage in P-type behaviors of blame placing and punishment of me because I would no longer engage in her malignant hope fantasy.
I’m working on the anger and frankly humiliation that my own mother would “sacrfice” even my life for the P’s freedom. I know she isn’t a “real” died in the wool P, but she is the “p-by-proxy” he has her so deeply invested in the fog. She just can’t see that the MAN-P is not the same person as the BOY she and I both loved—who is dead and gone.
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LilOrphan says:
Am very glad you righted your situation and stood up for yourself. Will have to look for the post where you explain that story.
I’m not quite a total loss in that department. Not by half. I do have a mouth and know how to use it, but when it comes to people I love it’s impossible for me to stay angry. That’s all.
Those things are so funny. I also used to tell them if they were misbehaving “I’m going to count to three” and they would immediately stop what they were doing and say “Oh,PLEASE DON’T COUNT!” I never got past one, and they had NO idea what would happen if I did, and neither did I. LOL I never did figure out why that worked so well and brought them to “heel’ you would have thought I had threatened them with some big STICK. LOL To this day the boys and I joke about “countin” and they always respond with “Oh, please don’t count!” LOL
This was hilarious and kind of eerie, because I could have written it, right down to the response from your kids!! That is EXACTLY what my girls say to me, all the time. I did the counting thing and often, while midway through to “3″ would think to myself What the heck am I gonna do once I get past three?
I had no Plan B.
Thankfully, it never got that far. They always stopped before 3. But really, what does happen after 3, a fireworks display?
My boundaries suck for two reasons. One, the childhood. No excuse, though. As an adult, I’ve never had to set them with people. Seems that the majority of people I know are very aware when they’re crossing a line. Or, if they do go to far, I simply say so and they chill, or apologize.
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alohatraveler says:
LilOrphan,
Having bounadaries and holding on to anger are not the same thing.
Let’s pretend that Bad Man was hitting me… so he hits me and I am angry and I even express it and then, I let it go because I don’t hold grudges… and then he hits me and I am angry and I express my anger and then, I let it go… that’s okay Bad Man… I can’t stay mad at people, it’s just not my way, and then he hits me and this time I am really angry and I even say it’s unacceptable and then I let it go.. because I don’t like to stay angry because holding onto anger is bad and then he hits me… and on and on and on.
See how I am “letting go” of my anger but I have no boundaries at all! What I should do in this imaginary situation is say, “Gee Bad Man, you don’t treat me right and that’s not okay with me so… you don’t get to be in my life anymore. Have a nice day.”
)
I think forgiveness is wonderful, trust me. And of course, I do need to be forgiven at times but there were so many things that Bad Man did that should have been “END OF STORY.”
If you don’t want to be angry, then don’t but do this: Say “NO” to people who show a clear pattern of disrespecting you. That is what a boundary is… the place where another person’s actions is affecting your well being in a negative way. If they do it once and they don’t know… tell them. If they do it again, you need to wonder if the person gives a crap about you.
Standing up for ourselves and having a standard for how we allow people to treat us is having boundaries. We didn’t do this before and that is why we were scooped up by a Sociopath. I am sure you have heard the saying, “We teach others how to treat us.”
Are you satisfied with how people treat you? If you are not, do you let them know? Do they respond to your requests?
If not, why are they in your life?
Just so you know, I am not just talking out my a**. I did let a long time friend “go” recently and I feel fine with this. This person has shown a pattern over a decade long of disrspecting my boundaries. I can think of no one beside the Bad Man that has caused me more distress and I finally cut the cord. I feel peaceful about it too. There wasn’t much fanfare.. we just had our usual disagreement and I decided to walk. I don’t care what she thinks about the situation. I don’t even care if she thinks I am a bad person. I don’t care… and she doesn’t get to be in my life anymore and I feel very PEACEFUL…
I am at peace for standing up for myself and my well being because I DO COUNT.
I should have done this a long time ago but I always forgave and didn’t want to hold grudges and did tend to let things go easily but… that was not working for me in my life so in baby steps, I am changing that.
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tmassar says:
I need help. He called me today after only 3 days of no contact. I was expecting to be left alone, i wanted to be left alone. He said he was calling to see how I was, like he just wanted to talk…? Is this normal when people decide to separate? WTF is going on?
I found myself getting dragged into a conversation about the whole relationship..i gave him examples of the ambient abuse, the outright abuse, the two emotional affairs…I tried to talk to him about the fact that he is ill – that he KNOWS he is ill, but he won’t/can’t do anything about it.
I feel like i have unfairly dropped a bomb on him but why, why did he call me. (I already know the answer to this, i’m just SO ANGRY.) Is this the first time he’s really realizing what he’s done to me?
Of course there’s the usual self-doubt kicking in about, maybe he’s not as bad as i think and he sounds so desperate and so scared and so alone…what if he got help?
I finally ended the conversation. I’m dying, how do i know i’m doing the right thing. OxDriver – he is not a bad man in the sense that your posts have described – he’s not really vindictive, he is really high-functioning and he is terrified of doing anything to ruin his image, so for him, the thought of this marriage disintegrating – it DEFINES him, it makes him seem normal and like he has a normal life – is killing him. But i have confused the hell out of HIM now. I feel awful.
I know the litany of posts i’m going to get now, yelling at me. Oh my god, get me out of this life.
No worries, i’m not going back to him. I need more time to get more strength.
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LilOrphan says:
tmasser
I feel an affinity for you. Have since the recent post about self-blame and your wondering if you are not giving it the right amount of effort.
This – right here – just clinches that affinity:
I’m dying, how do i know i’m doing the right thing.
This question revolves my entire life on its axis, in every situation, with every relationship and decision. This is the crux of my life. I used to say that everyone has a “personal billboard” in life, a motto or slogan that follows us like Marley’s chains, that keeps popping up throughout our life. Mine was “Surrender, Dorothy.” When I fight the current I get nowhere except frustrated. Hence, my motto.
However, if there were a higher theme, a bigger purpose, a question that keeps me up at night, your line would be it:
“I’m dying, how do i know i’m doing the right thing.”
Know what, tmasser? You simply don’t. And that’s really, really ok. From one incident to the next, from one relationship to another, even in everyday decisions, we don’t know we’re doing the right thing.
We do the best we can with the information available to us at the time. And that is ALL anyone can ask of us. Including ourselves. No, most especially OURSELVES.
You’re doing right now what you feel is best for you. Nothing is written in stone, in life. Most things can be undone, or repaired, even relationships, if both parties are willing to work at it. But you have to do what feels best for you right now and not ask “what if” I’m doing the right thing.
Because, I suspect that to people like me and you, that question not only means “what is best for us” but what is best for EVERYONE involved. And it’s great that we have such big hearts and consciences. I mean really, really, truly great.
But sometimes you just have to act and know that if something was really meant to be, even your actions will not stop it from happening.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Tmassar,
I wrote a long answer, but my server went down so BLIP it was gone. Back up now (I hope for a while)
Yes, as Orphan says, we NEVER completely know if what we are doing is the best option.
HOWEVER, THAT SAID: (AND NO, I AM NOT GOING TO YELL AT YOU) (((HUGS)))
Ask yourself some questions, I’ll start the list: (you know the answers to all these)
Was he honest with you?
Did he treat you with respect, caring etc?
Did he abuse you, if so how?
Make the list for yourself…and answer them, write it down even.
Now, let’s look at what you have said.
His IMAGE IS IMPORTANT TO HIM, and if your Pseudo-marriage fails his image will be hurt.
Okay, so whose problem is that?
Okay he isn’t Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson, but what has he done to show you that he is a caring person (NOT SAID, but done?)
“If he gets help”—repeat after me: The BEST indicator of future behavior is past behavior.
Quote: He’s realizing what he has done to me? THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO, HE IS NOT REALIZING WHAT HE HAS DONE TO YOU, HE IS REALIZING HE IS LOSING HIS IMAGE.
I tried to talk to him about he is “ill”—okay, he is NOT “ill” that means unwell, sick, he is DISORDERED. A person without legs is not “ill” they don’t have any legs. A person who has a personality disorder is NOT “ill” they are DISORDERED. They cannot be fixed. They don’t want to fix them selves, they want to control others.
“Hes so scared and so alone.” Can we say SYMPATHY? It is in the dictionary between shit and syphillis–look it up, and tell him where it is.
“I feel like I unfairly dropped a bomb on him” How unfairly?
“He just wanted to talk”—no, he did not just want to talk, he wants to plant a hook in your nose and get control back. Lookk up sympathy again.
YOU CAN CONTROL YOUR FEELINGS—I almost laughed inmy therapists face when he said this, but you know, he is RIGHT, we have more POWER THAN WE REALIZE, and if we exercise it is is amazing how powerful we are. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT HIS BS, OR BELIEVE HIS PITY PARTY—You are strong and powerful.
Sure, you have choices, you can stay with him and let his problems become yours again. Why did you want away from him in the first place? Ask yourself. Why would you want to go back to it again, I can write you a check that will not bounce that it will NOT BE ANY BETTER…I’m being your “Dutch Uncle” and Orphan is being your nurturing sister, but there’s wisdom in what both us us say…and believe me my dear, “The truth hurts, but it will set you free.” (((big hugs))))
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alohatraveler says:
tmasser,
Did you catch my post earlier to you today?
Go back and read the essay at the beginning of this thread: Sociopaths are filled with empty promises that never turn into healing action.
Your posts and arguements for this man are so classic. It has “sociopath” and “victim of sociopath” written all over it. Keep reading and absorb what is here for you… you have not fully embraced the information here and accepted that it does apply to you.
I wish you super human strength to get back on track with NC. I really do feel bad for all of you that were married to a Sociopath. I can only imagine how painful that would be… but try to move forward and waste no more time on this man.
And OxDover is right… we can control our emotions… and I believe we can transform things in ourselves if we decide to commit ourselves to the work. For example… if we have no boundaries, we have 2 choices. We can say, “I don’t have bounadaries.. that’s just how I am.” or we can say, “I have no boundaries and that’s not working for me so I am going to grow some starting NOW.” and then we actively work on it.
Good luck with NC.
Aloha……
)
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OxDrover says:
Aloha,
QUOTE: “being angry and setting boundaries are not the same thing”
THAT IS A GREAT POINT, because the only time I would set boundaries with adults in the family was when I was so mad I was steaming, and usually they were an over reaction.
I let my anger “drive” me rather than setting appropriate boundaries in a COOL manner.
It’s odd too that I had NO problem setting appropriate bondaries for the kids when they were little, and enforcing them until the P-son blew it all away and I “lost it’–but am getting much better now, and the main thing that is BETTER is that I am NOT AGONIZING over them now.
Oh, one more thing–yesterday I “reposessed” a concrete mixer than a neighbor “bought” and never paid me for…been meaning to do that but just kept avoiding an “unhappy” scene, but no problem, I just called him and toldl him I was sending my son D to get it. No quibble, no “why haven’t you paid me” etc, just “I’m sending him to get it.” (pat self on back again!) LOL It was only a couple of hundred dollars, but it was MY money and he didn’t pay me, so check that off the list of TO DOs. LOL
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alohatraveler says:
OxDover,
I guess I didn’t make myself clear. The point I was making was that I keep talking about having boundaries and another reader keeps saying, “I never stay mad… that’s just how I am.” Having boundaries has nothing to do with being mad or staying mad. It has EVERYTHING to do with having a healthy handle on being able to take care of one’s well being.
I was thinking earlier, being mad is OKAY and appropriate at times. That is something to look at if a person never *feels* angry or upset when they have been violated in some way. It is healthy to be able to verbalize appropriate boundaries when you need to. Sometimes we are trained in our FOO to have no needs or to not speak up for ourselves… or another popular one: no one is allowed to be angry or have any unpleasant feelings… or even worse… no one is allowed to be angry or have any unpleasant feelings except_____________(fill in the blank with dominating abusive family member).
Don’t you ever go to bed? It’s getting late here in CA but you are on the other side of the country! I am up late because I had too many naps today… I have strep throat. I think the med is finally working and I just had a midnight snack… I was starving.
)
Anyway, siging off.
Aloha
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alohatraveler says:
Free.. great post. I will add my own spin for LilOrphan.
What are boundaries. Well, first I would like to say that I really did not know before all this happened to me. It took me awhile to see it. I remember hearing a friend relate how someone had treated her poorly and she made the decision that she did not need a person like that around. How novel! This never occurred to me as simple as that is.
I happen to know that there were women that BM dated just a few times and he made one of his attacks on them and what did they do? They put an immediate END to it and cut al communication off. What did I do in the same situation.. I put on my communication hat and started explaining until I was blue in the face that he had me all wrong and I wasn’t those bad names he was calling me blah blah. What the hell was I doing? Bad Man’s first outburst was alarming enough that I should have at least cut things off for his very inappropriate behavior EVEN THOUGH I did not know at the time that his behavior indicated a disorder.
My friend that I booted:
Over the years she has left me waiting in random places because she told me “we are all getting together on Tues. at _______” and so I go there and wait and wait and then I finally reach her and she tells me “oh, I never did get around to asking the other people if they wanted to do that.” It would turn out that she would present it to me as a set plan but it was actually an idea at that moment, half baked. She borrowed my things without asking. She borrowed things I SPECIFICALLY pointed out as a thing I did not wish to share and then it was stained and ruined and she did not offer to rectify the situation. She called me “cheap” in front of others when I was in college and paying my own way because I did not want to pitch in $30 on a tab when my portion was $11.00. She called me a “stalker” in reference to BM after all that I had been through and this put me in a total meltdown. Despite all these things (and much more) I continued to be her friend. WHY? No boundaries for what kind of treatment I would accept for a person.
Let’s take a look at the Bad Mans
)
Despite that they told us everything was our fault… just strip it down to the basics.
They lied to us.
Unacceptable.
They called us names.
Unacceptable under any circumstances.
They stole our money.
Unacceptable.
They toyed with our emotions.
Unacceptable.
They cheated on us.
Unacceptable.
They were physically threatening to some of us.
Unacceptable.
Some of us knew these things as they happened or found them out LONG before we left. Guess what.. for people with good boundaries, any one of these things would be INSTANT deal breakers but for many of us… we tried to work it out or tolerated the intolerable for far too long.. this is why some of you are losing your hair and suffering physical symptoms.. the deep denial will manifest someway even if you just don’t like to be mad at people and can’t stay mad.
Now we know we HAVE TO have standards for what we will allow in our lives. To modify a saying that we all probably know…: If you don’t stand for something (for yourself), you will fall for anyone… if they say the right things.
Some of us have eaten the sh*t covered carrot even when we saw the truth about it and we even pretended it was the best tasting carrot we ever had.
When ML Gallagher tells us to turn up for ourselves, I believe she is talking about boundaries.
I have to go to work… have a good day all!
Aloha
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FinallyFree says:
Tmassar
I haven’t been on in while, sorry about that! But I completely understand what you are going through. I am almost at 3 months non contact and he started texting me the other night out of the blue. Its just them being selfish. Even when I had first initiated no contact he would send me messages like we were still fine! Its all part of their ploy to make you feel like you are the unstable one, the one to blame. That is not the case. Its understandable to feel like you need to be there for him while he is going through these issues that he can’t fix. BUT IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO FIX HIM. It took me forever to accept that, but it is the truth, and it is liberating. You are only responsible for yourself. And yes, he probably will find another woman to replace you, and thats a good thing for you (not so much for her). Then you can move on!
If you need to, think back to the awful thing that he called you, you know the one I am talking about. It was incredibly insensitive, and I was seriously upset reading he had said that to you… I had a similar slur thrown at me, and that is never ok. You deserve to be free and happy, and eventually with a man that loves you and deserves you!!
Stay strong, you can do this! It only gets better, I promise.
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tmassar says:
Hey ladies. Aloha – i saw your post and i did go back & read the opening. It actually reminded me, about 4 months ago i had hip surgery (minor – to fix a cartilage tear)..he came to hospital while i was in recovery & complained about 1) the facility, 2) the fact that i couldn’t leave immediately 3) the cost of the painkillers and the fact that he had to stand on line and wait to get them at the pharmacy. (He wouldn’t have even picked them up for me except the nurse didn’t give him a choice!) Then when we got home, he left me alone in the kitchen & went up to his computer (work, as always)..i yelled up for him to help me, i couldn’t carry my dinner (which i made for myself) while on the crutches to the table. He came down and says to me “what am i, your fucking slave?” Then we had a huge fight which ended with him throwing his wedding ring at me and telling me to get out.
Hmmmm: and i thought i didn’t belong on this blog…
i’ve been tossed out probably about 4 or 5 times over the course of the marriage, come to think of it.
Anyway he called me at 11pm (woke me) last night, crying and saying he was in shock that i could remember all these insults he’d hurled at me over the years, like they were yesterday. I REFUSED to engage with him. I said, you wanted to separate, please respect my space and do not call me again, at least until you’re back from your trip (which is in 2 weeks, at which time i will be resolved enough to say: divorce). But i said right now i need space and you need to stop calling me. He begged for 2 minutes more & i said no. So he said, okay i won’t contact you anymore & hung up fast.
I was really agitated, but more or less okay. He may have another psychotic break (he attempted suicide once before in 2002), but probably not, i think he’s stronger now than he was then (he was in psych hospital then for 2 weeks). I’ve repeatedly given him the ultimatum now – counseling or divorce, and he won’t answer! So that’s my answer.
I still feel badly for him, but i’m getting there – i’m starting to get it. And i’m starting to feel angry, which helps.
For me, the bottom line now is, EVEN if he was fixable through extensive therapy and willing to make himself that vulnerable (possible but doubtful) – i think there’s just been too much damage done to go back. 2 emotional affairs – that alone, frankly, would be enough for many marriages, even without all this other stuff.
Allow me to write down all the things that hurt/traumatize/stick with me – you don’t have to read all this but i can use it as a reminder later, and maybe someone else will recognize things to help them, who knows:
1 vacation in 13 years that was not related to work travel. I asked for a vacation for Christmas: he got me a suit. (Granted it’s a great suit, but anyway – sorry, that’s my humor)…He doesn’t drive (refuses to learn for no good reason) – i drive everywhere. Has never been grocery shopping with me, EVER. Never cooked or learned to cook. NEVER did laundry except when i was away on business. Only started to help cleaning this past month as part of the “self-improvement.” He works like a dog for his career – but that’s for him – NOTHING for me. When he doesn’t want to have sex, just sort of gently rebuffs me and will say ‘no thanks’..instead of saying something like, ‘i’m just super tired’ or something to make me feel less like a reject! Doesn’t return my kisses on the mouth (ever).
Didn’t have sex with me on THE most important day when i was taking Clomid (fertility drug) when we were trying to get pregnant! Probably a blessing in disguise. Made me cut short last visit to my father before he died (i don’t know why) – that was the last time i saw my beloved dad. Arrived late at my father’s funeral and left early – picked a fight in the car that escalated to the point that he turned my left arm black and blue. Had to hide that from my mother for the whole week after.
On the way driving to my parents for christmas one year, we had cat with us & cat threw up in car. He decided cat was too important and fragile, and made me turn around & drive back home, canceled christmas with my family – made me call and tell them.
Made me come home early from a visit to my family to help entertain HIS brother, whom he can’t stand. Literally would have exploded at me – i knew i had no choice but to go back early, dammit, why did i give in.
Late picking him up from the airport (i’d missed the turnoff)..got yelled at, threw a chair when we got home..said “never let that happen again.”
Swore he wouldn’t socialize with the neighbour that he developed a crush on (a younger, newly minted PhD, with a baby no less – right after my miscarriage) – then caught him walking home with his arm around her one night.
Lied for months about the second affair, even after he’d promised to cut it off. Spent a night out of town with her, left his cellphone off so i couldn’t reach him & gave me number of some random hotel (he wasn’t staying at). I was up the whole night crying. Then he gets upset because he doesn’t want to come home to an angry wife. So i end up being forgiving.
Then (same woman) i hear from a VERY good friend at a conference they’re at together the THREE different people have asked if there’s something going on between them, because they’re hanging out so much. He had promised me to steer clear of her at the conference.
Then in between all this: peace and good times. Lalala.
Thank you for your attention! Normally i’m not an angry person but i’m letting rip today, screw it.
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Ariadne says:
Tmassar,
It’s good that you’re allowing yourself to get mad at him. I remember my angry period after the breakup with my ex N. It lasted quite a long time! lol It’s all stuff that I explained and rationalized away at the time and put up with to keep the peace, but still I was walking on eggshells. I really wanted to beat the crap out of him for a long time after that. But at least I was acknowledging the reality of the past.
Now I still get small flashes of anger when I think of all his bullshit, but I generally just feel sorry for him because he will never be truly happy in life. But, not my problem anymore.
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alohatraveler says:
Tmasser,
Makes you angry by lieing about the hotel he’s staying at… and is unreachable… and then says he doens’t want to come home to an angry wife….
Do you see how he flips things onto you? He took your attention off the real matter which was he was deceiving you and in the end, you were apologizing for your anger.
This is text book, classic, disordered tactics, play by play. You do belong here.
He shouts at you that he is not your slave when you are on crutches and needs his help? Classic narcissism. If it isn’t about him, it isn’t about anything at all… you and your needs are unworthy and invisible. How dare you inconveniece him! This is what I call “inappropriate response”… for appropriate human response, see article above.
A friend of mine was married to a Narcissist but she is now divorced. When she had Cancer, it was VERY inconvenient for him.
Do you get it?
Don’t set your hopes on counseling. Look at what you have told us. Of course he is all broken up over this. If you divorce him, he will have to hire a cook, a maid, a personal shopper, a driver… you get the idea. He won’t be able to afford that, now will he? NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
You are on the right track. Just think.. 6 months from now, you might be posting something to help a confused soul like you once were and you will feel the joy we feel when another person emerges from the FOG and says, “WOW! What a load of cr*p that was! I am so glad that part of my life is over.”
And congratulations on NOT getting pregnant. What is a blessing for one person can be a curse for another.
Hang in there!
I am going SAILING!
Aloha!
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OxDrover says:
DEar Dear Tmassar,
This man is a BEAST—a MONSTER—you are his driver, his maid, his sex-when-HE-wants-it, but he doesn’t even want to KISS YOU? Has no consideration that your father is DYING, and I could repeat your list—WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED HIM FOR? What good things has he done for you? I bet the list is pretty short! If he wouldn’t be bothered to carry your dinner (which you made) because you were on crutches, what would have happened if you had cancer? Do you think HE WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE, or out with his “sweetie”–emotional affair CRAP—I’ll bet the farm he was screwing her!
You don’t deserve or need this kind of treatment. If you think you deserve to be mistreated, hire a sadist to beat you once a week and at least you won’t have to put up with him the rest of the week! (Joke–my sick sense of humor) But really, this man is a USER–and as far as his suicide “threats” or “attempts” my bet is that he uses this to CONTROL you—”do what I want or I will kill myself and thenn YOU will be SORRY you were so mean to me”—nothing but manipulation! Personally I’d hand him the knife and say, please put a towel or the floor, or go into the bathroom so there won’t be such a big mess. It is nothing but manipulation and control gestures.
All anyone has to do to get admitted to a psych unit say “I feel like hurting myself” and then you are expected to “not hold grudges” for all the mean things he has done, because he is SICK—poor baby. Sick, hell, the man is a control FREAK. He is DISORDERED, not mentally ill. Big difference.
NO CONTACT, let your attorney talk to him, that’s what they are for. I suggest you contact one tomorrow and file papers first before he financially rips you off. Good job on telling him not to call…but he will sooner or later, anything to try to get you to pick up the HOOK again, so he can reel you in. Good luck! Be strong.
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peggywhoever says:
Tmassar:
I entirely concur with the comments from Aloha, OxDrover and Free. You are in an abusive and neglectful relationship, emotionally, verbally, physically and sexually (withdrawal of love/sex and having an affair).
You do NOT need him, he is not enriching your life in any way. You sound very competent on your own! You will be sooo much happier without him. I am so proud you are going NC, you have a very bright and happy future ahead of you.
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tmassar says:
Hi friends – amazing, so amazing. I just went through this ‘empty promises’ section again, re-reading the whole thing and seeing, in 3 months, how much my life has changed.
You all are amazing. It is so easy to feel alone, and yet I’m not. I find myself back in this section for a reason I think.
We met with the divorce mediator a couple of nights ago. He tried to convince me not to go through with the divorce – to just remain separated for a year or so until he had time to do therapy, get on meds, do his own work, and I could get on with my own life in the meantime. It was SOOOO tempting. He is going through an enormous phase of idealizing me right now – right down to telling the divorce mediator that I’m the only one for him and he knows he’s been abusive and everything is his fault. (!) The remorse is SO convincing. He does believe it, right now, but I keep reminding myself that there’s no guaranty he’ll follow through on these PROMISES!! to get help, to honor me, etc etc etc…
And where would i be if i just stayed separated, with a vague hope that he was “working” on himself and might come back to me as a new and improved person…and then i find out that he’s again found someone else and i’m still hanging on…no way. Somewhere in me, despite all my emotions, I found the courage to say “i’m tired of being manipulated” and the mediator picked up on my fears immediately, and that was that.
So we’re on to paperwork and we don’t need to have any further joint meetings. We are friendly – he promises now to let me go, he says he understands why I have to do this. Thank god for that. Maybe it’s the one gift he can give me, after failing me on so much else.
Way earlier in this blog, someone said to me “can you integrate the idea that you might always love him” – and you know what? I think i can. He’s all i’ve known, i married so young and stayed so long, and not all of it was awful – i can wish for the best for him. And I do. But I wish for the best for me now too, and I need to proceed with that away from him.
No more empty promises – no more RISK of empty promises. He needs to keep the promises to himself first and foremost. Maybe leaving him was the best help i could have given him. Now it’s time to let go.
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Beverly says:
Tmassar, that is probably the pivotal point that some of us are grappling with. Having loved someone who turned out to be a cheating con, we grapple with the feelings of love and hate. There are times when I still feel angry that he cheated and conned me and then discarded me and ran away – so no closure. I really want to move on, but somehow i am still stuck in wondering what he is doing, how his relationship is doing etc etc – I guess I need to get more of a life and crowd out thoughts of him – which annoys me as was probably the biggest no hoper of all the boyfriends I have had and the one I put most effort into. I just dont think that letting go happens on one day. Yes, I have thought if I could get into another relationship (like he did), I could forget about him and I put myself on dating websites, but then took myself off. He still doesnt know I have had breast cancer, as I am determined that NO Contact is maintained and dont want to give any reason for contact.
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OxDrover says:
Tmassar! Congratulations on your newly implanted backbone. I’m still waiting for a donor! LOL Joke! I am smiling all the way from ear to ear at your post and I am so happy for you. It is so good to get happy news on this blog, to see people grow and heal. There has been so much growth in so many of the people here that I just feel like I’m on a trampoline, jumping up and down and up and down yelling Yippppeeee! Yippppeee! with each jump.
We all have down days from time to time, but there are more and more up days it seems.
A sorrow shared is halved, and a joy shared is doubled…in the case of this blog, though, I think it is multiplied MANY more times than just “double” as I feel sure that everyone here rejoices with you as much as I do. For those still in deep pain, it gives them HOPE, and for those of us on the up swing, it gives us validation as well that somehow maybe we have passed on the support that others gave us to help us over the worst of the hurdles.
I am SOOOOO very very happy for you! POWER WOMAN ALL THE WAY!!! (Hoisting one) Here’s to you POWER WOMAN!
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alohatraveler says:
tmasser,
To me, the most powerful thing you said was that you recognized the idealizing for what it was. Once you get it with these people, you won’t fall prey to their manipulations.
AMAZING… you have had a shift and you see him as he truly is and not as he says he is.
Good luck on the road ahead.
Forcast calls for “NO FOG.”
XO Aloha
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OxDrover says:
This thread about “empty promises” is sure right on for your P Tmassar!
Realizing that their promises are EMPTY is so empowering because we don’t fall for them any more. We aren’t willing to “wait until I become the man you want me to be instead of the control freak selfish jerk I am and always have been.”
My son got a call last night from his best friend who is a woman that he grew up with. She has decided to get a divorce from her husband. After they married he started to drink more, and party more and refused to “grow up” and just as she had independently decided to get a divorce (which he didn’t know about her seeing a lawyer) he came to her and said “I think I need to go into rehab” so she gave him another chance. Now, after several months of rehab, and him still living in a rehab half way house, on an outing to the hospital to see his grandfather, he still talked abusively to her, still had no empathy for her chronic medical condition (that is life long and very serious) or care for their 3 month old child.
She called my son last night to talk to him, and after she got off the phone with him my son D said “He’s a psychopath or Narcissist, I am glad that she saw he would never change, that his PROMISES are empty and is getting out now.”
My son’s friend made a miscalculation and a mistake in marrying this man, but she is not going to continue the abuse, or to listen to his EMPTY promises “forever.” She is done.
We all make miscalculations, make mistakes in judgment from time to time, but when we RECOGNIZE that the promises are just WORDS not ACTION we need the backbone to take ACTION of our own. I am so happy for this young woman that she has the courage and fortitude to do so. I wish more young women and men had such courage and used their strength in such positive ways.
My son at 31 still is not married, and he would like to be, but he is NOT “needy” for a relationship or marriage or children. When he DOES find the right woman, she will have a wonderful husband, but he will be VERY picky. The examples of his friends and his brother will be guides for his choices in partners. What more could I ask for in a son than for him to have the courage of his moral compas?
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shmg2007 says:
Hi everyone! I am new to this site but from what I have been reading I believe I should have been here long ago. I think I am involved with a P. I hear all the empty promises. That is what caught my attention. I feel like I am a shell of the person I used to be. When I met him I was strong, independent had just left a 20 year physically abusive marriage and had been going to counseling for a year. I felt very good about myself. Today my son is moving out and it is partially to do with me being involved with a P. I am so sad. My family and friends are far away because I have allowed it to happen. I hear his promise that he is going to pay me back all the money I have “lent” him. I hear the promise that he is going to quit drinking. I hear the promise that he is going to get all his bills paid off. I hear the promise that he is going to straighten himself out. I hear him say he is something that he shows he’s not. I keep hearing it but there is never any action taken on his part to follow through. I have been living a lie for 9 years now. I am still in a relationship with him although we are now living apart. I know I need help to get away from him.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Shmg,
Yep you came to the right place, welcome. My biggst suggestion is that you READ and LEARN, there is a thread on here a few months back about “you have to save yourself”—and that is true. We WILL be here to help you and support you, but ONLY YOU can actually save yourself. Even if we were your personal friends in RL, still YOU would have to do the “saving”—
All of us here have gone through 1 or more BAD Psychopathic relationships of one form or another, so we DO understand where you are emotionally and mentally with this guy.
They are sooooo predictable in the paterns of their behaviors. And unfortunately, we too are predictable to some extent in that we all go through the GRIEF process, the kicking ourselves stage, the crying stage, the hating him and yet still wanting him back, ya da ya da ya da. BUT when we recognize that they have NO power over us except what WE GIVE THEM, then we can take back our power, heal ourselves and emerge on the other side more confident, stronger and not so vulneaable to another attack from another psychopath.
You have already made the first step—you have seen and acknowledged that his PROMISES ARE EMPTY. He will NEVER DO THEM. He will SAY but NOT DO.
The next step is NO CONTACT…cut him off, get OUT of the relationship. Whatever money you have “lent him” is probably gone, though once in a while you can get some or all of it back, but usually it isn’t even worth the effort to try.
He will NOT ‘play fair” and if he has been using you for support he will do or say ANYTHING to get you hooked again, so it is important for you NOT to listen to a word he says…IT IS ALL A LIE. HE IS A LIE.
If you have some of his “things” arrange to have someone else deliver them to him. Change your phone number, or do not answer it, NO MATTER WHAT. Do not read e mails, or listen to voice messages. If you must deal with him at all, deal with him through a third party.
Good luck to you, it isn’t an “easy” detachment, but it is in the end HEALING. You get your life back. Again, welcome.
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sunkiss says:
Hi All,
I am new to the site as far as posting goes but have been visiting and reading for about a year. I apologize if I am posting in the wrong section, but to be honest with you, I am not understanding if we can start our own posts or if we have to post replies in others…. sorry…if someone can help me out with this question I’d appreciate it.
I am going to try and make this short and to the point. I dated a guy that I thought was “the one.” We got engaged, bought a home and the rest is downhill from there. While we were dating I would have to say that the only persoanlity “flaw” that I saw in him was that he was “a little jealous.” He was a mess financially but I really thought that he was going through a depression or something. Within a year and a half prior to our meeting, he had gotten a divorce and went through a horrible surgery that left him in a coma for a few months. (His wife cheated on him and left while he was in the coma. But there is more to that I have found out.) Anyhow, we got engaged, got the house and then began the hell. He was suspicious of ever move I made, everything I said, etc. He was emotionally abusive but so smooth about it. It was all so covert. I knew something was happening to me, but I couldnt put my finger on it. All of his criticisms were said with “good intentions.” BARF. I am giving the really condensed version of events here..partially because my story is probably like many of the others on here. Most of the time, he was loving and affectionate. I was on such a pedestal and I never had a man that I was with “love” me so much and want to be with me all of the time. Anyhow, things got really bad..to the point that I got a RO put on him for emotional abuse. I was shocked that they granted it, but they did. He lad to leave the house…… that was a year and a half ago. I know that I had some kind of breakdown. I started therapy and I had continued to educate myself via internet and books. I had thought that he was “only” verbally abusive, but thenI needed to know WHY. Googling verbal abuse lead me to emotional abuse, lead to to the Cluster Bs. For the whole part of this year and a half I have read and learned about the B’s, Borderline and AntiSocial fit him very very well. I told my T hat I thought he was BPD and she was impressed. lol. The next sentence out of her mouth was “Sociopaths….” Huh? I thought you agreed he was a borderline? She said all of the cluster Bs overlap one another in one was or another..comorbid.
I am getting off of the whole reason I am posting… Here is why I am posting. I have gone back and forth with him for a better part of this year and a half. I have kept it a huge secret from my family and friends. When I wouldnt talk with him or see him, he stalked me like it was his job. It was extremely frightening. I would find evidence that he had been outside me home, in my car, or he would send me messages basically reciting what I was doing at that very minute. Dont ask me why, but I went back with him. I was still so deep in the FOG. I still felt like I loved him so much and that maybe, just maybe he would change. I mean, he said over and over again that he knew he had a problem. I would go back with him but keep him at arms length. I was afraid to trust him again. I was afraid of what my family would think being that this caused them much stress too. I hid him fromm the world. Then he would either say something or do something, though not as outright as the verbal abuse I would get at home when we lived together, and I would just know it wasnt going to really change. I would end it with him and try to go NC again. ANd then, I would end up back with him AGAIN. Part of me believes that I was very fearful of him…better to know what he was doing instead of wonder if he was in the bushed outside the house or watching from afar, and then part of me felt an overwhelming sense of guilt. He used to tell me that he gave up everything to be with me. (He moved to my state, sold some prized possessions of his, and committed insurance fraud to get rid of a few expenses.) It ended up that he would work but get dead end jobs..pay no taxes, have no health insurance, bring hoe no real money. I was paying for more than my far share and he kept taking. I did keep giving though…deep inside I was seething and did think that *maybe* I was being taken advantage of, but he would tell me that he loved me and would never hurt me…. You get what I am saying? So, after losing 2 jobs (one for not being able to pass a surprise pee test and another because karma paid a visit for past wrongs, he has no job once again. I went back with him about 3 months ago. This is the part that I am also struggling with. I went back but I am not sure why. I mean, yes, I still care for him, but not in the same capacity as the other times. I think what happens is those “lets meet up and talk” deals and it always ended up with us having sex. Then it would just progress to seeing one another again and again and again until we were a “couple” again. The thing is, this last time, I faked it all..faked being happy, faked being in love, fakes the sex, faked the I love yous, etc. That really bothers me that I did that. I dont want to make excuses, but I think fear of him stalking AND the verbal lashings he can give out and the guilt he can lay on me make me go back to him. Does that make sense to anyone?
I ended it again with him 4 nights ago. The week before we went to a friends wedding and “looked” so in love. I disgust myself. Anyhow, I had been reading on here again and it gave me strength. I actaully got really pissed off. Here is how it went down. I took on a part time job at night in addition to my full time job. At closing, my boss and I started talking. I was off for a week and we were cathcing up on our kids, what I did during my week off, just general bsing. I was about an hour late. I didnt call him to tell him. (we dont live together anymore. He lives in the neighboring state about 40 minutes away.) Pleeeeease…like I could call and tell him that me and my boss were talking..I’m not nuts. My boss is a man and any man to him is a threat. My staying and shooting the shit with my boss would have been called “inappropriate” and set me up for another guilt trip of some sorts. ANyhow, he started to call my cell. I ignored the calls. (Remember, I have hid the fact taht I am seeing him again from everyone.) He then called the business directly. I told my boss please not to answer it. So, I get out of there, call him as soon as I get in my car and he is LIVID. I did lie. I told him that he had a problem with the books that we were working on. He didnt believe me at all which is normal anyhow. He always thought I was cheating on him or being “inappropriate.” (I have never ever cheated on him in any kind of way.) He was yelling and carrying on and telling me that he is not stupid and he knows what is going on (he thinks I am cheating, etc.) I BLEW. Here I am working another job, not only to help myself, but from which he has no problem taking money from me from because he is in such a bad way right now and he is going tot accuse me yet again of being something I am not. I work my ass off, try to help him (though this last time I have not given him even a third of what I did in the past and this is what I get? He claims that he was worried about me, but if that was true, and maybe part of it is, why would he go right to the cheating thing? Now, I have never once in these 3+ years of knowing him told him a single negative thing about himself. I never wanted to hurt him. I basically in not so many words told him that I am tired of all of his shit. From his psycho son (that is a whole nother story in itself that you wont believe) to him losing jobs due to him own stupididty, to my having to pay from everything all the time, etc. I told him that I am fed up and dont need to be accused any longer of being something that I am not and being his pocketbook. I couldnt believe the things that came out of my my mouth. (And, I need to say this..he has never come right out and asked me for money….Never said “SUnkiss, will you loan me XXX. I need to pay this or that or whatever. It was always done in a pitiful way… “Oh God, I’m going to lose heat in the house. My life is so F’d up, I’m trying Sunkiss…blah, blha, blah…and stupid me would give it to him.
A couple handful of texts went back and forht after this exchange…him aking me what he was to me, my boyfriend, his fiance, his what?( I told him that he is someone that I love that I have been trying to trust again.) ….how he still includes me in everything in his life and he is a “BIG SECRET” in mine…..how he never asked me for anything, money, etc…….how I am materialistic and only worry about money…..how he has tried to make things right and I havent done a GD thing…….. there are a bunch of others but you get the jest of it all I am sure.
He told me that everytime he hits rock bottom, I fuck him over. He said that he knew when he lost his job 2 weeks ago that I was going to do this to him “again.” WHat the hell am I supposed to do???? Im tired of it all. Tired of hiding, tired of honeymooning with him knowing full and well that the chances of things being alright in the long term are null, tired of paying for everything every time we do anything, including stop at convenience stores for a pop and a pack of cigarettes. I’m tired of feeling taken advantage of and I’m tired of feeling guilt. I’m tired of second guessing if I am the sane one, or if I really am this heartless bitch he claims I am being.
I broke it off with him Thursday night. I got texts on Friday. Saturday I got a text that said..Drama,drama, drama…we both know you are going to talk to me again so why keep up this charade?” Oh did this give me strength!!!! It just shows how weak he thinks I rally am. After that, I got one telling me how I will never be happy and how my track record proves it, blah, blah, blah. Then he threw in my fact in a “nice way” about my having to be on antidepressants and med for bipolar. (My T isnt even “sure” that I am..and if I am..it is the lowest grade possible.) I didnt respond to any of it,which is a huge accomplishment for me. I wanted to though. After that last message, it was quiet alllll night long. (I know what this means.)
And then today, I was working in my yard and the dog went running. There he stood..in the driveway of the house that was ours at one time. He looked disgusted. I asked what he wanted. He wanted to know “Why I lie.” Huh???? Why do you lie? He said “5 days ago you were bleep bleep bleeping with me (sexual) and now you wont even talk to me over what??? You say you love me and it is all bullshit.” I threw my hands up in the air and told him, who knows, I’m a liar, I lie to everyone…ok? So get in your car and get out of here. He sid no, he wanted to know why I lie. Dear God, I couldnt take it! I said I dont know and if I am such a liar why did he drive 40 minutes to see me? He told me again how I f’d his whole life up. He told me his life was fine before meeting me. I tld him to go back to it then. He told me he couldnt because I f’d it all up and he has nothing. etc. I told him that HE f’d my whole life up and to leave my home right now. That is when he told me that I f’d him over with this house too….. that I couldnt have gotten a house on my own and I needed him as a cosigner, which is true, I wouldnt have gotten it on my own at the time, but I sure didnt need for him to be a cosigner…if I wanted the house WITHOUT him my parents would have cosigned no wuestions asked. See…here I am explaining myself…I KNOW IT TO BE TRUE BUT HE MAKES ME DOUBT EVERYTHING.
I told him that I wanted him to leave that that I never ever wanted to see his face again. He mumbled as he was walking away that he is going to find someone that is good to him and not f’d in the head. I told him to please do so and he retorted with, “Oh dont worry I will..smiling like a cheshire cat. I went back to my garden only mildly upset…NOTHING like I used to be. When I got in the house there was a text that said this: You telling me that Im nothing but a guy that you sleep with and now that you never want to see again tells me that you really do hate me. Thanks alot and same to you. IT INFURIATES ME. I hate that he puts words into my mouth. Because I didnt say he was my fiance, my boyfriend, he writes the script. I never said that and once again he looks like the victim.
I loved this man like no other. I tried time and time and time again to help him, help his son, bail him out financially time and time again thinking that he would do the same for me one day. I really loved him. The think that hurts me so much is how I had to behave to end it. And how I pretended to be still in love with him to avoid whatever it is that I fear. (I dont fear being alone so please dont suggest that.) I still have love for this man….but not in love…more that I hope he is ok in life,….which I know deep down he will be. There will always be someone just like me a click away or around the corner that he can see as a good person.
Its still so hard to believe that it wasnt love on his end.
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sunkiss says:
And another thing that makes me mad about myself….when he was standing in my drivewayhe still looked so handsome to me. Awhile back while I was talking to a friend of mine about the situation (what she knows, that is) I made a comment about him being so good looking and she looked at me and told me that she doesnt understand how I can still see that in him..that I should look at him and see ugly. Anyone?
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shmg2007 says:
Thank you OxDrover. You don’t know how good it felt to hear your welcome. I have allowed myself to become isolated from friends and family. This is because I don’t like whining and telling them one day everything is fine and the next day it’s not. I am SO TIRED of this roller coaster and so tired of myself being sucked into his lies. I have done the NC with him a few times before but usually it just lasts a week at the most and then he’ll call or text me and I go right back to it. It seems to me the last few weeks have been really bad. He blames me for everything and just like sunkiss above he is very very jealous and constantly every day accuses me of being unfaithful. I never have been. I loved -love?- him so much and could never do that. Any man to him is a threat and I have learned over the years to not even look at a man when I’m with him. I see so many similarities in what people have written here – it could be a page from my life. He has gone on a fishing trip this weekend and I think because I am finally getting a 4 day respite from his constant calls and emails that I finally had some time to think, I have been doing lots of reading, in fact, I spent the whole day today reading blogs on this site. The more I read the more I am sure he is a P or an S. It is all about him and what’s good for him. My story started the same way that many on here describe it. He was so charming, so enraptured with me, he had me on a pedestal so high that I often told him to take me off it please because what would happen when he saw a crack in the pedestal? I found out and it didn’t take all that long either. Now like I just read somewhere today they start hating/despising us because we love them. Could this be because they know they don’t deserve our love? I know I am rambling but thank you again.
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OxDrover says:
Welcome Sunkiss, the only way to handle it is NO CONTACT. You have started that, and that is the first big step, but you must maintain 100% NO CONTACT, and tha tmeans also that you don’t try to figure out who he is with or wht he is doing.
Read what I wrote to SHMG above and my advice to you is the same. Just post anywhere you want to, comment, tell your story, whatever is comfortable to you is what most people do.
Shmg, you are very welcome. I am glad that people find this wonderful site, and that in any way I can show them support, there are soo many wonderful people on this site and the hosts are just absolutely GREAT! It is I think the BEST and most informative site with REAL information, as well as the blogs, comments and support.
I know that NO contact is difficult at first, but I think you have made a GREAT START. Just hang in there and READ READ READ and LEARN LEARN LEARN–you will see the patterns in the behavior–the names and faces are different, but sometimes I think there must be a “psychopathic school” that teaches them the same tricks and tactics..either that or we have all dated the same guy! LOL
It gets easier and better, I prominse you! (((hugs))))
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sunkiss says:
Thanks OxDrover. I am very good at not looking for him on myspace pages, dating sites, etc. I learned my lesson on that one about a year ago..(roll eyes) He had threatened suicide and I went running..sat with him for 4 hours..ended up in sex…I left…came home and had a wierd feeling and looked on Match and sure enough the status on the page said ACTIVE WITHIN ONE HOUR. !!!!!!!!!! If you could have seen the intense pain this man was in when I went there..the sweating and throwing up over being so worked up… makes me sick to think about it. I now know that even though his show of remorse that night was award winning, it was real..it just wasnt for me…he was sorry for himself.
Tell me something in terms of not giving a rats ass what he thinks about me. Believe it or not, I have come a loooong way, but there is part of me that still seeths inside when I think of him thinking these things about me.
Also, I think I am looking for someone to come right out and tell me that they did what I did too. (Back and forth..”playing” the part. I feel tremendous guilt over this. I know that I am not a bad person and I know that he is what he is but did that give me the right in anyway to carry on the way that I did? To mislead him if you will. I cant even really explain why I did except the fear thing. That and I must admit that when I was with him, we ususally had a really good time together. I was enjoying the honeymoon knowing all along that it wasnt right of me.
I have never ever ever said such ugly things to a person about themself. Why do I feel so bad for calling him out on the cunning taker that he is? I think the fact that I had sex with him days before and laid with him and told him that I loved him has alot to do with it. So much guilt and confusion. I do love him….I care that he will be alright in life (most days, lol….some days I want him to be miserable, lol), but I know that any of the IN LOVE feelings are gone.
How do I get rid of this guilt? Were my actions of going back with him 3 months ago and the things I said to him 4 days ago as horrible as I think they are?
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sunkiss says:
How do I get rid of this guilt? Were my actions of going back with him 3 months ago and playing the perfect part and then saying the things I did to him 4 days ago as horrible as I think they are? I feel like a fraud.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sunkiss,
One of the worst Ps I had to deal with (and I had several) was my own son. He is in prison for murder–cold, calculate, hateful killing of someone. Yet, I wanted to believe he could change, repent, learn to love, or at least see that the EVIL ways were not OK—I went back, I went back and I went back again because I LOVED HIM. He did NOT love me.
I felt sorry for him though he had ruined his own life, I sent him money to make his years long stay in prison easier, so he could buy things for himself from the prison store. He pretended gratitude, remorse, learning from his past behavior, all the things I WANTED to believe. Finally, I realized that he is NOT REMORSEFUL, he is PROUD he is a cold blooded killer and can kill without remorse.
I called him a “few things” too—and everyone of them was TRUE. I wished bad things on him! I wished him to suffer! Like he had made me suffer because I DID LOVE HIM. But now, I realize that my LOVE was wasted on someone who could or would not return that love, just because I gave BIRTH to him doesn’t mean that I have to feel GUILTY for cutting him out of my life. GUILT is what we SHOULD feel when we do something BAD to others. SHAME is what we feel when “the world knows we did someting bad” and we feel it reflects badly on us.
Guilt and Shame help us to monitor our own behavior. The psychopath does not feel SHAME OR GUILT.
If I lied to you, and you didn’t know it. I would feel guilty because I knew I had wronged you. I have a conscience and that conscience tells me it is wrong for me to lie to you. It should motivate me to quit lying to you.
Shame is what I feel when everyone including you finds out I lied to you, and they and you no longer trust me. It is the PUBLIC humiliation you feel when you know people look at you and you say to yourself “They know I am a liar.” And you FEEL that shame.
By responding to the psychopath by saying “You are an abusive person” (or whatever we say to them) we are not doing something WRONG. We should not feel “guilty” for saying the truth. We should not feel shame that THEY abused us. Though somehow it seems that many of us DO feel SHAME that we have been abused. Or guilty for not doing something about it (sooner maybe.)
I no longer feel either guilt for cutting my son out of my life, or shame that he is a murder. He is an ADULT and he made his own choices. They were NOT my choices, and I did not want him to make these choices, I could not stop him from making these choices, so I have no guilt about his choices, and no shame about what others think about him (as my son).
As far as I am concerned, the young child I loved is DEAD, he is certainally GONE, and the MAN in prison has no meaning for me. I do not worry about his health, or if he is well or not, he is a STRANGER to me. I don’t worry about the other million + men and women in prison either. They are also strangers to me. I feel empathy for their families; their wives, husbands, children, parents, friends and for their victims. I feel empathy for the people in prison who are innocent of the crimes for which they are convicted. I feel empathy for the mentally ill people in prison who should have been more protected by society in other ways—but for the psychopaths I am just glad that they are there and for the time being they can’t hurt others as much as they could if they were free.
So, go easy on yourself…Guilt and shame are two emotions that we can work on how we think about them and it will help us with our FEELINGS. Be good to yourself, that is of the utmost importance right now. (((hugs))))
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OxDrover says:
Free, you said that so well. I absolutely agree with every word you said. It sounded like you were describing me, and my own guilty feelings. Thank you.
“We shouldn’t own any emotions that have been projected onto us by someone else, but when we don’t have boundaries, we don’t assert our rights and so we take on the blame from our abusers like a sponge…”
TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN!!!!!!!!
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OxDrover says:
LEARNING ME,
I brought this thread up for you to read in case you haven’t read it. I think it might be what you need to see that though they “promise” the moon to us, they never ACT on those promises—many times they purposely get a woman pregnant in order to get a legal and long term hook into her, so don’t believe a word he says about wanting a family with you. (((hugs))))
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