213 Comments to “The fantasy of magic moments with sociopaths”

1. peggywhoever says:

   Alohatraveler:
   I can totally relate to your ‘Snapshots’ article, and it is beautifully written. The one thing I hope for you is that your fantasies of love, and being in love, are found again for you.
   Aloha.

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 10:44am

2. southernman429 says:

   Wow… I relate to the snapshot vision as well….. that seems to be the hook that keeps me thinking about her and wondering “Why?”….All the wonderful moments.. her gentle words… her caring actions… when those thoughts drift by my head, I want to grab them and hold them… but then there is the dark, sad, reality of what it really was and what it eventually became… I then throw those thoughts out in disgust and remind myself of what it really was all about… I also relate to your words “I was never good enough, never knew what he wanted or didn’t want, could never guess how to make him happy, because it changed minute by minute, nor could I keep up with his ever changing relationship rules that always applied to me but never to him. I was crumbling under the stress of it all.”………….that was me too…. what worked in the beginning sure didn’t near the end…. it was crazy.. it was frustrating.. it was confusing.. and then she mocked me… telling me that I was “too emotional”… or she’d say “am I frustrating you?” with a knowing smile on her face……. when I tell people of the things she said or did.. they can’t believe that I put up with it.. and now… I can’t either… it was insane….. it was those “snapshots” that kept me there and they kept me in that bad place long after she departed….. We all have those snapshots, and they can be chains of bondage, or if we choose, they can be a reminder of what was never real even though it felt so real for us…. that was then.. this is now… and now is real. Good writing Aloha……….

   ~R~

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 11:54am

3. change06 says:

   Aloha-Beautiful and so True!! It tells the tale that almost all of us had. How you hold onto the one line or phrase that makes you stay. Repeating it over and over in your mind. Your thought process does become clouded to see the Red Flags. We never are truly happy, its a lie, just like them. Because deep down you are full of anxiety, fear and going crazy trying to keep up with their ever changing rules. You become an emotional mess, its is then “over” and we are left ALONE to mop up the tears and broken pieces of ourselves. Astonishing how their manipulating ways grab hold and you are hooked in by the devil. Then he walks away grinning on this way to the next.

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 2:05pm

4. Beverly says:

   Today I was thinking about some of his comments – ‘I dont want to lose you’ ‘I knew you were the one as soon as I saw you’ ‘I want to grow old with you’ ‘you tick more boxes than I could ever imagine’ etc etc. How he could have been so two faced still confounds me. I still wake up some mornings thinking – I dont know how he did all that to me. But he would never be open about what he was doing, just dropping hints now and again to keep me thinking and wondering about him.

   When I think of how little he put into the relationship, he was playing the relationship by a set of rules I was completely unaware of at the time. How he thought out and measured out his actions to diminish me, I am left wondering why – its been 6 months of him doing his disappearing act – am I still thinking about him? I know in my rational mind, that a relationship with him now would be a waste of space and I would not take him back ever – but I have lived with guys for 6 years or more that have not knocked the stuffing out of me like this man who I only knew for a year. I am desperate to move on, but I just cant seem to shake him out of my head. I had no closure, he conveniently did a runner when I closed in on him for questions and answers and then gave a message via a friend, saying he had found someone else. Any answers please?

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 2:56pm

5. alohatraveler says:

   Beverly,

   The closure is: He is a Sociopath and that is what Sociopaths do.
   *(credits to ML for that thought… I have clearly attached to it! It’s powerful and it’s freeing, isn’t it?)

   I know it’s sad but that is the full answer. There is nothing more you need to know about him.

   I believe the healing begins when we stop looking at them asking “Why?” and start looking at ourselves… and asking “Why?”

   My fairytale love fantasies are gone now. I traded them in for what is real and what I can create in my life for myself. I know that many readers had full lives before they met their Sociopath. For me, I was not full for sure. I was pretending that I was but honestly, I wasn’t. That is my story though. Yours may be different… but the story of your Bad Man is the same as mine. He did what he did because that is what they do… Let this remind us that it had little to do with who we are. They did not treat us bad, or toss us out, because of who we are or because we deserved it in any way.

   Be gentle with yourself but still learn what you need to learn.

   Now, we have lives to create for ourselves. Full lives!

   Think of the lion and the gazelle. We don’t ask why Lions sneak up on gazelles punce on them and gobble them up.

   I am baking a cake today. I haven’t done that in years.

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 4:52pm

6. Tami Newman says:

   My fairytale love fantasies are gone as well. My relationship and marriage with my ex s was the only fairytale love story I’ve every known although I certainly know that I was loved before and am actually loved right now. Looking back, it was TOO perfect. He paid me way too much attention, flattered me beyond words and petted me like a baby and all the while was leading a double life having sex with the lowest of the lowest. I loved the way he pampered me but hated his being irresponsible. I didn’t say anything about his not fulfilling his end of the deal financially for a very long time and finally, I had to. It was either say something, or crack under the pressure. It wasn’t long after that until he sought out the younger woman with a good job and credit. I’ve warned her repeatedly and she says that she has told him that she will NOT financially support a man although she has already gone above and beyond what I would have done. She’s caught up in his charm. Speaking of snapshots–I don’t dwell too much on those. They seem to just be the classic things that s’s do to entrap us. Lies, all pretty lie! He had my pic, his wife of nearly 7 years, on his myspace page with the caption “baby girl”. Days after he left, he replaced my pic with hers but left the caption the same. He called me his snuggle bunny, now he calls her that. It’s a shame that all of their victims can’t get together and compare notes–that’s when I think a s behavior might get limited and their victims fewer and far between. However, s’s make sure that they stay one step ahead of us convincing the current victim that all the previous ones are crazy! Yeah, we know who it is that’s really crazy, don’t we?

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 6:01pm

7. Grace63 says:

   Reading these posts have, for some reason, brought tears to my eyes. I am sad sometimes for how seemingly complicit I was in how the sociopath treated me. I didn’t know how to defend myself against him, and my lack of a strong sense of self prevented me from telling him to take a hike sooner….
   Basically, I didn’t love myself very WELL…and, I am growing and growing, my love for ME is growing…and this is bringing me healing.

   But, in regards to finding resolution, I have to say…accepting that a snake is a snake, and a sociopath is a sociopath, and that is JUST THE WAY it is…and accepting ME and MY BRILLAINCE…HAS meant tremendous growth for me, and to avoid allowing sociopaths like him in my life again…I MUST accept my own brilliance. Also, I have chosen to try to avoid fixation on the pain, the sociopath’s actions, and how horrible HE IS…I don’t want to give him more of my energy, after all, energy IS life.

   I found the following film to be helpful, for some reason…accepting the sociopath as a predator, and ME as simply as prey…has made it LESS PERSONAL…check the film out…if you care too…it was very very powerful for me.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

   All the best to you all…thank you Alohatraveler for your story, and the rest of you all for sharing your stories, and your hearts…

   Grace

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 6:16pm

8. change06 says:

   Bev- My encounter (far from relationship) lasted a little over a year as well. Its only been a month for me, but I am trying REAL HARD to take care of myself, take myself back from him. I mull over the lines he use to say as well. “I must really love you, cause I don’t stick around for someone who makes me so mad”- nice one- double sided. Or- “I think about having your daughter as a step daughter and it makes me so proud to think people will praise her and I can say, oh yes that is my step daughter.” “I think we should have a child and then adopt another.” and it goes on..

   As far as closure…NONE! I did leave him for 2 months and came back, he professed; thanking god that I have returned. He sweet talked me and I was so attracted to him. Then he asked for a couple hundred dollars. He said he needed it that minute but would re-pay me in two days AND make dinner for me. Well, the two days came and went, the dinner never happened and when I pressed him for the money he disappeared. Never returning a txt or call. Then shortly after, his brother called me and told me that my S was just a player who would stick his D**K into anything. But reassured me that that statement didn’t include me-(yeah great). I’ve stopped trying almost a month ago. It was keeping me in the sick trap and I was becoming psycho. I realized he doesnt even deserve my psycho side let alone my good nature. He can keep the money- in return I’ll keep myself.

   Tami- Everyone to him was “Babe”-even his sister. He couldn’t get confused or mess up I guess. OR to him a name really didnt matter, the person doesn’t so why would a name.

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   Friday, 15 February 2008 @ 6:41pm

9. Tami Newman says:

   change06: Your words haunt me. It was actually my sister-in-law (married to my s brother) who once told me that I didn’t know my husband at all. She hailed from the same community that he grew up in–I did not. She told me that my husband had always been a “player” after he caused a family uproar by calling her up and hitting on her during the time we were married–HIS BROTHER’S WIFE! He said horrible things to her that scared her!

   And, when my s was leaving me after 7 years of marriage–a man who had never raised his voice to me–spat at me between clenched teeth that he just wanted to stick his d**k in everything! I was shocked and horrified. I could NOT believe the monster that he turned into. I don’t think anyone believes me when I tell them because he always plays the Mr. Nice Guy role. My parents and my son saw it, too, thank goodness, or no one would believe me. It’s hard to believe that a man could play a role so well for actually nearly 8 years including our dating time and then turn into a monster on a dime.

   Another thing that really bothers me is that his family knows damn well how he is. I started to hear rumors when he and I were married and questioned them about it. They convinced me that they had never seen him SO happy and content in his life and that I was his dream girl and the love of his life. Now, they’re telling the new gal the same thing! She’s fool enough to believe it. I don’t know if it’s possible, but I honestly think my ex s’s mother is a sociopath, too. I KNOW she is a pathological liar–tells big ellaborate stories simply for the heck of it. I don’t understand.

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   Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 6:41am

10. jules says:

    yep that is right the only way its going to stop if everyone knows everything new and old victims alike. but with social situations and for our own sanity how the hell are we going to do that. i dont even know half of his victims and they would probably turn on me anyway. stick their d…k in anything the only thing mine ever gave me was his d….k and one day when im really over this i am going to tell him that.

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 9:16am

11. change06 says:

    Tami-I have mentioned in another section that he is the greatest manipulator of his family. They excuse his behavior, they believe his lies and he gets more practice for his ways through them. He is a sociopath so he has been doing this all of his life. He has been thrown out of a prep school, college, arrested, moved around, no job, sucked money out of his family & others, the list goes on. But they see all of this as someone elses fault…oh her poor baby son. His mother thinks he just needs to find the perfect woman. Hes not going to. It may be for a little while but he will use her and get bored, cheat on her and treat her like S**T. She will put up with it for as long as she can, and if she doesn’t leave him, he’ll go. Either, physically, mentally, sexually to yet another.

    I have said this before, “I am sick of smelling like garbage because I have been treated like trash.” Of course I still wonder, dwell and get urges to call, see him and await for my phone to ring. But I keep trying and working on keeping my head afloat. In time, as others write it will get better. We will get better and they will just be a blurred vision in the rear view mirror. Can’t wait!

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 12:48pm

12. righteous woman says:

    At one time – and one time only – I had developed enough hope and enough trust, and after years of back and forth, I let the Tiger, who I KNEW was incapable of changing his spots, come live with his son and I.

    He was living with us for 6-months or so at the time. He only had male friends come over to the house, his brother, but not his sister (whom I did not much care for) and for some reason, one day, I ended up on the phone with his sister. During this conversation she explained to me that I needed mental help, that I was delusional…that her brother was off living his own life. That he had told her that I was crazy and he would have nothing to do with me. I was like ‘huh? He lives here, with me and his son…” She said, “he said you would say that, that you have spun way out of control.” Here I was, on the phone, having to ‘defend’ myself over cohabitation? Since I didn’t like her anyway, I hung up on her….This started a big argument between me and S of course, and he left for a few weeks. Interestingly, this situation he created, in the long run, played right into his hands. Even though I knew better, he ‘made me look crazy and delusional.’ However, the sister found out from his daughters mother (because the sister and her have a good relationship, and the daughters mother and I have a good relationship) that he was IN FACT living there. But regardless the sister refused to believe that I was sane or normal. She still thinks I am ‘crazy’. Fine. What the hell do I care what she thinks? Who is she? My son’s aunt from my son’s defective paternal family that have never done anything for him anyway? Don’t see how there is a loss in that set of facts.

    When my son was little, my father used to tell people, within my son’s ear shot, but not directly to my son, stories…that I was crazy and out of control and such. We have had little to nothing to do with his dad for 3-years now. As time passed, and the healing began..my son confessed to me that he had been made privy to my ‘mental instability’ from his dad and the family…and used to believe it was true. But now with no dad around, and life being very peaceful, my son not seeing ANY drama, where-as with his father, there was drama constantly, my son sees fully that it was never me, my fault, or my ‘mental instability’. I am perfectly rational and peaceful.

    Like any person who has been convicted on the testimony of a liar, my oh so natural desire is to go out of my way to prove I am SANE. But ultimately, I just opt to not interact with anyone from the S family. For the past 5 years, at least, if a request has been made for my son’s presence, I refer that family member to his father to arrange that. The result, is my son does not see his paternal family. This year I was asked for copies of my sons very expensive senior pictures. My son’s father was supposed to contribute towards their purchase. He picked a fight with me – over nothing, and he missed the appointment to select the pictures, so I bought a package that would satisfy my needs only, and never asked, or received, one red cent from the S. Now I am being asked for copies from his family. I politely replied that I had no extras, but that I had supplied the S with the website to purchase whatever THEIR family may want. That was the last I heard about it. Through the grapevine I heard I was selfish and greedy and that he had helped purchase them, and this was how I was trying to control him, that he was being robbed and taken advantage of – blah blah blah…..You know…who cares???? It is sick and twisted. You know, I have seen it all over this site. The Sociopath only wants to win. I am so done with his games.

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 1:46pm

13. fatherof1 says:

    Snapshots, wow that story sounds like my life for the three and a half years of sorrow that I endured and still enduring because of custody battle for my son. I was utterly consumed by this woman. I was invited to take a shower with her the first time at her house. She told me all about her exhusband and how horrible of a person he was. I was sucked into helping her despise and hate this man. Later in court she would tell the magistrate that her relationship with her ex was so bad because of me. She said the same thing about her mother, the same woman that physically attacked me at the front door of our house. Like mother, like daughter. I still have a hard time getting this woman out of my head and I hear things like how useless I am, I am only good for sex, I am a bad parent, mean, I am a pussy of a man, at least my cooking is good because I am not good for anything else. I have lived in constant chaos and always on edge, I unfortunately began to drink heavily as this was the only time it seemed that we were able to get along, when we drank together. I gave up jobs and military service for this woman, which I thought was for the better of our family but that was not good enough. Nothing was period. I have lied for this woman over and over again to protect her and her side. Now I am paying dearly for helping her and making her look good while everyone else was wrong. The kids were all made to think that I was the bad man and a mean daddy and she would tell them that in front of me and others. She would put restraining orders against me and then send me nude pictures of herself and tell me how horny she was. I would fall right back in and make everything ok for her. That’s right the SP only wants to win and I have been weakened to the point that I have no fight left. Thank You God for my friends and family that hold me up.

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 5:54pm

14. righteous woman says:

    When I wrote earlier – I was kind of adding a situation I had to the previous writer…But I have a snapshot:

    I was 16, he was 20. We had been seeing each other a few weeks. He was in the neighborhood I lived in everyday, hanging out with his cousin at a friends apartment one block down. When I got out of school, he would come up to my house and spend hours with me…talking, laughing, sharing experiences, watching TV – we even played a one on one ‘game’ of tag that brought me great joy…and let me not leave out kissing. Lots of kissing. It didn’t matter to me, at 16, that the 20 year old did not have a job, he said he was going to junior college…and he was done by the time I got out of classes. It didn’t bother me that he did not have a car…I didn’t have a car..lots of people I knew didn’t have cars….He may have been 20, but we were both kids in my minds eye.

    On one visit, it was getting late, and it started to sprinkle, the precursor for rain. We were in my front yard, hanging out again. He decided to go and gave me this great big kiss, even today, 23-years later, I can still feel one hand on my back, the other touching the back of my neck and fingers going up into my hair, and his lips on mine. It was a really good kiss….and he knew he had to go, the rain was coming down faster…and he stopped kissing me, and started spinning in circles as he ‘walked’ away…he was spinning, and spinning and spinning..he was about 20 feet away and he stopped and ran back up to me and swooped me up in his arms, twirled me around in a spin and just passionately kissed me!! That was the moment that I fell in love.

    A few weeks later we had sex for the first time, I was young, naive and idealistically in love. Turned out that the ‘friend’ in the apartment was a woman that he had met at a local nightclub. I met my ex through his cousin that I was friends with. He brought me down to the apartment..and we were watching some TV…My new boyfriend…the guy I was in love with, was in the next room having sex with this woman. I tried to get out without raising any kind of a fuss, but my body language went hay-wire…and when I walked out, she followed me, we talked…

    A few months later he was calling me…couldn’t get me out of his head (and vice versa) he had dumped her, she had a drug problem – etc etc etc….we reconciled. And the story continued for years.

    I was the child of a narcissistic alcoholic man…at first I went with the old saying that “I had found my father”. And I naively, instinctively, attempted to fix the S, fix me, go along to get along with the S. I didn’t even realize what I was doing to myself. CO-dependent stupidity…that I was RAISED to do. (I bet a lot of us were raised to do it).

    I had many snapshots, many times when I felt so amazingly loved…because I wanted more of the snapshots…the stuff I tolerated was incredible..the stuff I participated in is now embarrassing…I was driven mad by his manipulations, and then he pointed his finger at me and said – “see, you are crazy..” Turns out, he calls all his victims crazy. The victim he has now, he had sex with other women in the house they share, had sex with women in HER CAR and she didn’t kick him out, she is living in total paranoia, he says she is crazy, when I talked to her, she said she didn’t want to kick him out because he is “Such a nice guy…” She is living in her snapshots. Now that I am older, wiser, and eyes wide open, I see the pattern.

    To be honest, this is all I ever knew of love. I tried dating in between episodes with him, and I must have wreaked of mistrust..I actually dated someone who worked in criminal justice and has a degree psychology, upon discussion of where my sons father was I volunteered that he was a sociopath, and we have kind of cut him out, to which he replied “If your ex was a sociopath, so must have you been, you gravitate towards what you are…” Well, that was the end of that little get-to-know-ya and turned me off of dating for a while. In the end I felt like I ran, just like a sociopath would if someone had their number.

    I wish I could end this on a strong, positive note, but after writing it, I feel like a sucker..and it was 23-years ago…and I was a kid. Alohatraveler, and everyone else that shared their snapshot…I know EXACTLY how you felt.

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 7:21pm

15. alohatraveler says:

    Righteous Woman,

    It’s too bad that your “date” said you must be a Sociopath to have been with one. How sad and not true. Don’t take that on for a minute. I am sure that was confusing as you were probably already being run in circles with word games with your S. That makes me mad that someone would tell you that!

    The point of Snapshots is that they aren’t real. Or what we were telling ourselves was happening in those moments… well… what we were thinking that they were thinking.. they weren’t. Do you follow me?

    Burn up those snapshots. Burn up those ideal moments that weren’t real.

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 8:27pm

16. Grace63 says:

    The hardest part of thinking about the snapshots is that throughout the entire relationship (which only lasted 2 years) I suspected/knew something was not quite right…but, I didn’t want to listen to my intuition/quickly went into denial, and escaped INTO the snapshot to hang onto every bit of hope, false promises, and just felt that if he would just “get help” — he might actually live up to the idea, fantasy of the various snapshots I had of him…and of our lives together.

    I still find myself thinking about the moments where I was convinced he had the compassion, sensitivity and honesty of those snapshot moments. And, its getting easier to deal with his lies, and the lies I told myself.

    Yes, they were not real…except in my mind, hopes, dreams and fantasies. And, you can bet he was counting on that…that’s why I was one of the chosen ones…LOL.

    I get to face him in court on March 12–and this site has given me the strength to look beyond the snapshots, to gather all my resources and friends to face him down. The man hates exposure, and I know he won’t be happy when I bring in a half dozen of my friends to support me…but, fortunately, I have friends like this who have been happy to become educated about this…FOR ME. I don’t know what I would do wilthout them. I still might be living in the SNAPSHOT moments…going crazy…and giving up my life, my energy to someone who clearly has no conscience, and doesn’t care who he hurts…as long as he gets what he wants.

    I know I have a tendency to get carried away sometimes when I post…but, I hope I AM clear about how grateful I am for this site…and for the time, love and honesty of all the posters…dealing with a sociopath…I WOULD NOT wish this on anyone!

    And, thanks Alohatraveler for this wonderful topc…and thereinforcement of reality that I MUST focus on sometimes to make sure I keep my eyes open…

    I really like the symbol of the ’snapshot’–because realzing it was ALL A LIE…helps me to stay grounded in my recovery TODAY…to focus on the truth of the here and now.

    Thanks again.

    Thanks again

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    Saturday, 16 February 2008 @ 10:44pm

17. alohatraveler says:

    Grace63,

    I am so glad I don’t have to face the Bad Man in court.

    Good luck to you and thank God that you have friends to surround you with TRUTH.

    LoveFraud has explained to me every single second of my relationship with the Bad Man… especially the Snapshots… the most ideal and seductive moments, words, glances. I feel like I was a puppet and I just reacted to everything that was happening. Have you seen that movie with Jim Carey called “The Trueman Show.” That is EXACTLY how it is being with a Sociopath until one day you notice there is nothing behind the backdrop of the man. Everything you love about your life is a lie. How many times have we seen people on LoveFraud say that their S said something like, “I should win an academy award for my performance.”

    I can tie every moment and every word from Bad Man’s mouth to a Sociopathic tactic. It’s as if no man exists, only a diseased mind. How sad. How scary!!!

    This revelation has helped me to turn the corner. I don’t miss the Bad Man at all. I do not long for those over the top moments. In fact, if I were ever to be in a relationship again, I would seek something much more earthly. I would feel unsafe if I noticed myself being whipped up into a frenzy of “LOVE.”

    There were some very bizarre moments I had with that man. One that really strikes me was when I called a friend to talk to her about him. The Bad Man and I had already had several ups and downs and we were on an upswing. I called my friend early one morning after car camping in a remote area of the island. I was talking to my friend back home about it and I was talking SO FAST that I was gasping for air, my heart was pounding and I kept having to stop in the middle of a sentence to catch my breath. All the while, I was running around in circles as I told her about my man and our fabulous camping adventure. It was like I was having a MANIC attack. I am not Manic depressive but even my friend told me after I moved home that she remembers that call. She was afraid for me and she thought I was going Manic. She also told me she was afriad to come visit me because of this man. After I hung up, I stood there for a moment trying to catch my breathe and noticing how strange I felt. I felt out of my mind. This is the only time in my life I have ever had something like this occur.

    Anyway! The point is, the massive amount of manipulation and stress I was under plus the hours and hours of trying to sort out lies and double talk nearly had me coming undone.

    Does anyone relate to this?

    A friend of mine is divorced from someone she now realizes was a Narcissist. Her therapist told her this but she never fully grasped what that meant until my Bad Man experience. (She was my housemate in Maui… thank God for her. She kept me from going over the edge! I love you, M!) She told me she always cried when she was intimate with this man. She thought it was because she loved him so much but I think it was because of his ability to stir up her emotions the way only a Narcissist, or a Sociopath or a Borderline can. I remember having strong feelings like this as well.

    I do hope one day that I will love someone deeply but that it will be real. Not some drama designed to bring me to the brink of mental collapse.

    AMEN!

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    Sunday, 17 February 2008 @ 2:24pm

18. change06 says:

    Aloha & To All- Without question the stress endured by trying to figure them out becomes an overload and takes a major toll on you. I very much can relate to your “manic” episode. I too would feel I was trying to find the air. It reminds me of a song and I think the lyrics go well for a S. They go something like this:

    I know what you’re doing,
    I see it all to clear
    I only taste the saline when I kiss away your tears
    You really had me going, wishing on a star
    But the black holes that surround you are heavier by far and
    I believed in your confusion

    Well it must have been that yesterday was the day that I was born
    There’s not much to examine, there’s nothing left to hide

    Everyone keeps asking, what’s it all about?
    I used to be so certain and now I can’t figure it out
    What is this attraction? I only feel the pain!
    There’s nothing left to reason and only you to blame
    Will it ever change?

    I’ve come to find
    I many never know
    Your changing mind
    Is it friend or foe?

    I rise above
    Or sink below
    With every time
    You come and go

    I am barely breathing
    and I can’t find the air
    I dont know who I’m kidding
    Imagining you care
    And I can stand here waiting
    a fool for another day
    But I dont suppose its worth
    the price that I would pay

    I guess on one hand I should be glad that he walked away, I wasn’t going to. (At least not then) And I need to realize it wasn’t worth the price I would pay—which was ALL OF ME!

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    Sunday, 17 February 2008 @ 8:50pm

19. alohatraveler says:

    Thanks for sharing these song lyrics. It’s funny but once you have gone through a Sociopathic encounter, it seems like all the jilted lover songs are about Sociopaths.

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    Sunday, 17 February 2008 @ 11:31pm

20. jules says:

    that song explains a lot of the things i felt with my ex s path. thing is i cant believe that so much happened in such a short time i was only with him a year. and it s like so many things happened, that doesnt normally happen in a relationship. i heard a song by missy higgins the other day i dont remember the word exactly. but it went like this; you said life is just peachy without me, stupid me i thought you might miss me, of course you dont of course you wont. that was the chorus and i thought that just is him to a tee. he wont miss me he wont let himslef miss me or anyone else for that matter they dontknow how to. something i have noticed about the s path is he has this ideal image of his perfect woman i mean its very specific physically in his mind. and if he sees someone who looks like or fits this description in his mind, he is so desperate to know them and intereact with that person he swoops on them right off. there is different variations of his image of the perfect woman but by knowing him and his behaviour for a while now i know exactly what this image is. and when i see him with different woman i can see just what it is that attract him physically, in fact if a woman doesnt have these attributes he wont go for them. does anyone else have this experience with the s path in there lifes. its just i wanted to mention it cause its so very obvious to me with him. love to hear some comments on this . thanks for helping me.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 18 February 2008 @ 7:30am

21. Beverly says:

    Jules, my ex N has the perfect picture of the woman he likes and when I saw the ex before me, I said to him ’she looks just like me’. He is able to get really nice looking women, is he because he is the alpha male alot of women are looking for – I was certainly drawn to that type of masculinity. But after a while, his ‘conquest’ begins to see that he is suspect and so that is why he wasnt completely honest about who he had been with and why it ended. He only told me the bits he wanted me to know.

    I am convinced that the time he asked to go shopping with me (he hated crowds!) and then went off for nearly two hours on his own, had arranged to meet a girl and when we met later, this girl who appeared to be his ‘perfect woman’ who was sitting near him, or if he didnt know her he was sure trying to, because he sent me away for 10 minutes and when I got back he had disappeared – I gather to find the woman who left moments after I met up with him. That was the end for me, I thought ‘if I put up with that – whatever he is doing or thinking’ I will put up with anything and I will be lost, I will be telling him by staying with him, that I will turn a blind eye to his philandering – and I couldnt put up with that.

    He was not worth all the anxiety and worry and care that I was putting into someone who was totally ambivalent about me, was using me and insulting me to my face – thinking I he could get away with it. I had already been through two of his ‘tests’ one was that he had left initimate text msgs on a phone of mine he asked to borrow and I didnt look in the phone when he gave it back. So his next prank was to give me one of his old phones which had womens phone numbers on it and I still stayed with him, knowing that he was up to something, and playing cat and mouse with him. But he knew where he was going, I was not familiar with the rules of his game – but I am very familiar now.

    I am still full of thoughts about him, which is the bit I never expected when I terminated the relationship for good, I let him convince me we had a future together and I went along with the fantasy even though he was avoiding committment like the plague, he wouldnt be intimate with me and used his mobile phone to communicate with me much of the time. so that when he came round, I felt more special. He cancelled arrangements, teased me sexually to get me to go to meet him and then I would realise that he only wanted a lift home. He even sat across the road in ‘his’ bar, knowing that I was in the bar across the road – he finished his drink and I saw him passing my bar on his way home. Boy we had a breakup over that. I had to finish it, but I didnt realise that thoughts of him on a daily basis would still continue – dammed if you stay in the relationship and very painful when you get out!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 18 February 2008 @ 11:14am

22. alohatraveler says:

    Jules,

    That is interesting what you said about their “ideal image.” Yes, I relate to this. On Craigslist, I can easily find any woman he would contact. For awhile, over a year ago, I was contacting women on CL and found that I had nearly 100% accuracy on whom he had contacted. By that time, his ads were getting kind of freaky so most of the woman had already felt bad vibes from him. Some had gone on a date but had already experiences the wrath if they did something “wrong” according to him. He digs and asks them for lots ot information about their life and then will attack them later for who they were being say… 20 years ago. It’s ridiculous. If you’re a virgin that there is something wrong with you and if you’re not then you are slut and blah blah blah.

    I would say my Bad Man has a certain profile of a woman he is looking for… some kind of new age spiritual lady or something. Actually, what am I saying.. he changes it all the time. He recently wanted to find a transexual so scratch the whole thing for me. He wants anyone who will go along with him for a moment in time. The weird thing is he is not a player with a roving eye. He freaks out on all his potential mates and then when they get upset for how he is attacking them, he calls it “DRAMA” and walks away. His ads frequently say he wants someone with “no drama.” I think the women are so traumatized by his sudden attacks from what seems like a really nice guy that they fight back and then he calls them stalkers of whatever. He really should be locked up.

    That is a trigger for me these days. Any guys who says he wants “no drama” to me means that for some reason, there is a lot of drama around him and therefore… he is a NUT JOB and forget it!

    Aloha… )

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 18 February 2008 @ 8:45pm

23. dorkgirl says:

    Aloha – I love your writing, I always enjoy reading your comments as well. I’m still hooked on my snapshots . Feeling rather weak these days.

    I had to comment on the “type.” That’s amazing, I didn’t realize that was something else they have in common! I am not my S path’s type, as he has told me over and over again. I’m blonde, petite, close to his age and fairly attractive. His “type” is much older, dark hair, a little heavy. I’ve managed to see pictures (thanks to the internet) of three of them, and they all look alike. I assumed it was just because they were easy prey, but it sounds like it’s something burned into their brain. I may not look anything like them, but he was able to spot the gaping hole inside to know I was fair game! Psychic, I swear.

    Sorry, I have to post these song lyrics, too. It’s Kelly Clarkson’s “Gone.” It’s an anthem for us! If only I could stick to it .

    What you see’s not what you get
    With you there’s just no measurement
    No way to tell what’s real from what isn’t there
    Your eyes they sparkle
    That’s all changed into lies that drop like acid rain
    You washed away the best of me
    You don’t care

    You know you did it
    I’m gone
    To find someone to live for
    In this world
    There’s no light at the end of the tunnel tonight
    Just a bridge that I gotta burn
    You were wrong
    If you think you can walk right through my door
    That is just so you
    Coming back when I’ve finally moved on
    I’m already gone

    Sometimes shattered
    Never open
    Nothing matters
    When you’re broken
    That was me whenever I was with you
    Always ending
    Always over
    Back and forth, up and down like a rollercoaster
    I am breaking
    That habit
    Today

    You know you did it
    I’m gone
    To find someone to live for
    In this world
    There’s no light at the end of the tunnel tonight
    Just a bridge that I gotta burn
    You were wrong
    If you think you can walk right through my door
    That is just so you
    Coming back when I’ve finally moved on
    I’m already gone

    There is nothing you can say
    Sorry doesn’t cut it, babe
    Take the hit and walk away
    ‘Cause I’m gone
    Doesn’t matter what you do
    It’s what you did that’s hurting you
    All I needed was the truth
    Now I’m gone

    What you see’s not what you get
    What you see’s not what you get

    You know you did it
    I’m gone
    To find someone to live for
    In this world
    There’s no light at the end of the tunnel tonight
    Just a bridge that I gotta burn
    You were wrong
    If you think you can walk right through my door
    That is just so you
    Coming back when I’ve finally moved on
    I’m already gone
    I’m already gone
    Oh, I’m already gone, gone, gone, gone
    Already gone
    I’m gone

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    Monday, 18 February 2008 @ 9:57pm

24. alohatraveler says:

    Dorkgirl,

    Another reader shared some songs with me on YouTube. I think this was one of them. Isn’t it amazing? Doesn’t it sound like a song about a Sociopath. I am starting to see all those bad relationships that we hear of in a different way. I have noticed that my ears and eyes have changed.

    Yesterday, I told my housemate, “I will either never have a relationship again OR I will have the healthiest relationship ever.” I hope it’s the 2nd one.

    And thanks so much for the compliment. I find the writing so therapeutic. I don’t want my experience to go to waste and I hope my words will help someone, anyone, to heal quicker or to help them “turn the corner” as LoveFraud has done for me.

    I have learned too that wanting to help is a normal part of the healing process and it explains why many of us have wanted to reach out and warn the next victim or help the ex-wife. Yes, PP, I am talking about you. )

    I am actually helping someone at the moment who almost got involved with the Bad Man. Perhaps I will write about that.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 12:54am

25. LilOrphan says:

    “I was never good enough, never knew what he wanted or didn’t want, could never guess how to make him happy, because it changed minute by minute, nor could I keep up with his ever changing relationship rules that always applied to me but never to him. I was crumbling under the stress of it all.

    I guess it’s never too late to be truthful with yourself.”

    Truth is painful, and so sometimes arrives in small doses a little at a time, I’m learning. But that paragraph quoted above, wow…YES! It’s a truth I’ve come to embrace and understand…that weird sense of him constantly moving the goal posts from one place to another – friends, then dating, then marriage, then…um, wait, I want you in my life forever…then the D&D…me bolting…me foolishly returning and a SNAPSHOT of happiness…then him ripping the rug out from under me, sneering as he repeatedly told me he never loved me.

    Ouch. Big flipping game, rules we could never fathom, a role we never understood because we were never given context for it. We were just there to be moved around like human chess pieces and that sense of never being good enough was pervasive.

    It still is. At this point a few months into No Contact, I realize I am a shell-shocked, former shadow of my beautiful, trusting, loving, supremely confident self who probably still has PTSD.

    I stayed with another man this weekend…not a Bad Man, I don’t think, and he placed my car in the safe confines of his locked garage area. Most of the night I paced, worrying because my car was not readily available in case I needed to run…in case he woke up and went from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde. There are so many things I can never tell any man in my future, and so much of my panic and odd feelings they may question.

    The aftermath of trauma and abuse is never pretty, is it? But somehow we were smart enough to realize we really are good enough and that someday we’ll meet someone who agrees, who won’t change the goal posts, who won’t enjoy abusing us.

    In the meantime, good days and bad. Your post really hit home on a bad day and made it a little bit better, Aloha.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 1:09am

26. alohatraveler says:

    LilOrphan,

    Moving the goal posts. WOW! Yes, I totally get that!!! That is so perfect. And it was so tiring wasn’t it?

    When I came home, it was 9 months before I was able to be intimate with anyone. I chose someone I already knew and then I really cried. And since then, there has been very little “action” as my girlfriends like to call it. NO ACTION FOR ME. I cried because I heard the Bad Man in my head telling me I was a slut and “sleezy cheesy pop culture girl.” He was so under my skin.

    Anyway, I left the Bad Man on July 3rd, 2005. I am just now feeling like perhaps I should date. At this point, I want to date at a snail’s pace. I DO NOT want to be swept off my feet.

    Maybe it’s too soon for you to be dating. If you are pacing and afraid because your car is in the garage… that sounds like a little PTSD. I am not a therapist but you sound very very vulnerable. I can really relate to that, very much.

    It has taken me a long time to figure out what to say to a date about what happened. Recently, I decided that I really don’t want to say much about it. This goes back to boundaries again for me. I don’t need to reveal my inner most hurts and pains to some poor guy that just wants to meet for coffee. If I meet a man that shows himself to be worthy of developing true intimacy, then perhaps, I will share some things about my experience.

    In the meantime, I have decided to take better care of myself. I got a massage today because my body is holding a lot of pain. There is still a lot in my life to sort out and I still have a long way to go as far as financial recovery. I realized that I have to start taking care of myself now instead of waiting until I pay everything off. I might even get another massage this week. I feel like I am going to cry when I get a massage. I feel safe with a Massage Therapist (I am one myself) because I know that nothing is being taken from me… only something given. I had a male therapist today too and I felt a slight hesitation inside but I decided to just let my hesitation be present and go for it anyway. It worked out fine and I feel better.

    I gave the Bad Man access to the deepest part of my being. That has left me very exposed and raw. I am slowly healing that wound and today was a small step toward trusting a man again.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 2:01am

27. jules says:

    lil orphan; yep so ,many songs are around like that one like they were written about s paths its good to hear them but hard too. my s path said when we broke up that he didnt love me anymore and that i loved him more than he loved me. and thats why he was leaving. then later he said he did still love me and he just said that cause he was backed into a corner and didnt know what else to say. so confusing i was devestated to hear him say he didnt love me cause he always said he did and he told me a lot of the time. those words cut like a knife and then when they say i didnt mean it they think it takes all the pain away but it doesnt. no wonder i thought i was losing my mind.he often said things then turn around and say i didnt mean that or i odnt know why i said that. it actually took me a fair while before i realised i was with a sociopath a while after the relationship had ended and i was finding it hard to get over what i thought was a normal break up but i couldnt figure out why i was hurting so much. then i started reading i went onto a site called dont date him girl and that is where i learned about a s path and i thought my god i was with one deeply involved with one. then i read a book written by on of the doctors on this site and it opened my eyes i was reading about him exactly. re your car in the garage, i dont think we are ever going to feel the same with a new man, it just wont be like that with that trust gone, we just arent the same woman anymore and we just need to know and accept that at least thats what im trying to do .i really want to be in relationship its 2 years since s path, but we still slept with eachother for ayear after , anyway its hard cause i really want to be with someone but i dont think i will ever feel the same about a man since s path experience its weird and i dont like feeling like this but no one is attracting me the way he did. i think it was cause everything is so exageratted with s paths like the attention and loving and all the rest no man is going to be that good cause its all a act so it seems anyway.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 7:42am

28. Beverly says:

    I just bought ‘Art of Seduction’ book – whew – what an eye opener. There is a formula for what they do. My N may never have bought this book, but he might have well written it – it is us all over. The intenseness, the intrigue, the push and pull, the attraction. But make no mistake, it is concocted and unreal, it is a ploy and it part of the hypnotism they use to suck you in till you have lost sense of reality and that is when you are loosing sense of self, then they can exploit and confuse you at their whim. The book says that infiltrate their emotional minds first and the rest then becomes easier. And as women are so in their emotional minds, this is somewhat easier to do.

    They do a thorough and deep job into our psyche, it is not easy to pull out by the roots. But i too feel this magnetism for someone I went out with only just over a year. This is the stuff of mind control, seduction, exploitation by design. As one contributor said ‘Seek, Conquer, Destroy and Discard’.

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    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 10:52am

29. LilOrphan says:

    To Jules you said:

    “l orphan; yep so ,many songs are around like that one like they were written about s paths its good to hear them but hard too. my s path said when we broke up that he didnt love me anymore and that i loved him more than he loved me. and thats why he was leaving. then later he said he did still love me and he just said that cause he was backed into a corner and didnt know what else to say. so confusing i was devestated to hear him say he didnt love me cause he always said he did and he told me a lot of the time. those words cut like a knife and then when they say i didnt mean it they think it takes all the pain away but it doesnt. no wonder i thought i was losing my mind.he often said things then turn around and say i didnt mean that or i odnt know why i said that. it actually took me a fair while before i realised i was with a sociopath a while after the relationship had ended and i was finding it hard to get over what i thought was a normal break up but i couldnt figure out why i was hurting so much. then i started reading i went onto a site called dont date him girl and that is where i learned about a s path and i thought my god i was with one deeply involved with one. then i read a book written by on of the doctors on this site and it opened my eyes i was reading about him exactly. re your car in the garage, i dont think we are ever going to feel the same with a new man, it just wont be like that with that trust gone, we just arent the same woman anymore and we just need to know and accept that at least thats what im trying to do .i really want to be in relationship its 2 years since s path, but we still slept with eachother for ayear after , anyway its hard cause i really want to be with someone but i dont think i will ever feel the same about a man since s path experience its weird and i dont like feeling like this but no one is attracting me the way he did. i think it was cause everything is so exageratted with s paths like the attention and loving and all the rest no man is going to be that good cause its all a act so it seems anyway.”

    Think that’s why I was crying most of last night, at work. Good thing I work alone. Letting the S’path get to the point where he violated everything beautiful about a relationship – the moment a guy says he loves you, the talk of getting married — all sullied, now – all questionable. I may never believe another man if the day comes for that new person to say those things to me.

    Thought I’d escaped this time pretty much unscathed. Had figured him out, understood why all the saying one thing and then him saying “I didn’t mean that/never said that/huh?” crap existed. In many ways, I did get the better of the P this time. I knew when to run and I never really let my heart get too far into things. But the damage of just being present for his lies, even marginally present, is definitely there.

    I realized last night that I am different now, and there’s no going back in some ways to the woman I used to be — who spent five years alone getting rid of the toxic memories in order to be ready when the right, sincere guy came along.

    We’ll learn to accept this as part of it, right? I think. I hope. A true, loving relationship with a solid, truthful guy will feel so different than the illusion created by a P/S guy that we’ll probably find it much easier to feel their real affection and believe when they say they love us — especially when it’s not followed by creepy, cryptic disclaimers, cell phones ringing well into the night, lies, secrecy and outright abuse.

    I’m holding on to that hope. Mostly because I don’t want to shed one more damned tear over any of this, and because I believe the Universe has so many better plans for me — there’s no way it would let the P ruin those.

    Just finding this blog and other resourceful forums on the ‘Net was the first sign that somewhere, something much bigger than we can fathom, wanted help us save ourselves.

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    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 12:06pm

30. LilOrphan says:

    Aloha:

    “Moving the goal posts. WOW! Yes, I totally get that!!! That is so perfect. And it was so tiring wasn’t it?

    That was my first clue. I was utterly, completely exhausted, didn’t care about anything, was physically ill, losing hair, turning into a zombie — and my kid told me, unequivocally, that the only change in our lives was the addition of this guy she saw as being a controlling guy seething with hidden rage.

    As to intimacy, I spent five years between the last encounter with the P (who I didn’t realize even then was anything but QUIRKY — have a great range for tolerance, apparently) and this time.

    Was not prepared to do that again. Felt so much like wasted years because it WAS. I wouldn’t even date anyone for all those years, on purpose, pining for the Wolf. Ugh.

    So this time, I chose someone I barely know but really liked as a person…who seems also to be pretty tolerant. With the Wolf I had a female “problem” that some guys would love a girl having, but the Wolf made me feel horrible about it…so I was afraid of feeling so stigmatized over time because of that I just wanted to hurry up and see if another guy would react ok to it. Thankfully, he was quite happy and made me comfortable!!

    Emotionally, though, you are 100 percent right. I am not ready. It would take someone with the patience of Job to win my deepest affection and trust. So I am just completely open to going as slow as possible, dating a little, a lot or not at all, and not attaching myself to outcomes. Because I refuse to let the Wolf win and close myself off to really living and eventually loving someone again.

    So yes, if you are ready, Aloha, try to slowly get back into dating. The key really is slowly (even with me, emotionally if not physically). We have no guaranteed time table in life and the Bad Man should not be able to rob you of any possible joy or experience, not one second more than the time he took from you before you knew better. It’d be like voting yourself off your own island, perhaps forever!!

    Thanks again for the beautiful blog entry, both heartwarming and humorous. All of this reading really helps.

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    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 12:18pm

31. pokeybanana says:

    Snapshots? Yes, I have them. And it is the toughest thing to deal with. Talk about sappy….I can’t hear the song I Wanna Know What Love Is without crying because it brings to mind a phone call I received at 11:30 p.m. with the song playing on the phone, him singing along in the background, and when the song ended, a simple, “Did you hear that?” I said, “Yes, I heard that.” He said, “Good, now good night.” He did this a couple other times with songs, but this memory is the most poignant.

    I remember so many things, and it makes me miss the man he pretended to be for so long. I DO NOT miss who he turned out to be, but I have to admit that I miss that other person.

    I’ve gotten past wondering what was real and was a lie. I read someone’s words on this website that helped me a lot — realize that everything was a lie to prevent torturing yourself. And that’s how I’ve approached everything. But it makes it that more painful because there are NO good, happy memories to look back on. At least with my ex-husband, I can look back and smile at some things and I was only with him for 18 months. I was with the sociopath for 5 years and cannot trust any memory as being “real.” It makes me very sad.

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    Tuesday, 19 February 2008 @ 3:24pm

32. jules says:

    lilorphan; thanks for your reply. i totally relate i know i will never feel the same again too. and now tonight especially i dont want to waste anything on him anymore no energy. no emotions nothing. someone said something to me today which i took to mean something to myself she said, she only lets love penetrate her mind only positive no negetive only positive love. i thought that was a good way to think. anyway i am feeling down tonight cause as i suspected the ex s path has a new vicitm. they have been seeing each other for a week and a half and yep that includes valentines day. she is younger than him by a bit and they met through an old FRIEND of his. thats what amazes me its like he networks to meet find woman . he said he got in touch with this old friend he would not elaborate who and she invited him to her birthday and this new girl was at the birthday. so its like when hes got no one he goes into his phone book and looks up all these old friends and tries networking. i think he does this cause most of the current people have woken or are started to wake up to his ways.and these old friends are always girls so he knows they are going to introduce him to more girls. i dont know anyone who can meet people so fast and then start dating them i now think he really cant be without some sort of female attention. it makes me mad that he just meets them so easy then they fall for him. i know he wil be laying it on so thick for her right now to get her to really like him and valentines day well you can imagine. its not fair i really would like to meet someone and i m having trouble doing this and what do you know he beat me to it again and just sounds so smug about the whole thing of course talking to me. but i was good i just didnt re act much and didnt ask much. do all spaths network and look up old friends to try to meet woman this way, this seems like a pattern to me. anyway thats annoying and its got me angry. he wil probably use some of the things he learnt from being with me and even take her to places i introduced him to, im sure he does that which is a bit sick really. but i dont want to waste any time on him anymore and just want to get back a little of who i used to be i am going to go out on dates and just go at my own pace and see what happens. if we believe we deserve good maybe good things will happen. i know his routine he will be perfect for a while then once the dust settles and she starts to have her own mind the gold will start to wear off him a little when things dont go his way.. dont know what it is with this one she prob has a car which he doesnt and maybe a rich family or something like that, but there will be something for him to gain here you bet your life. i can see exactly what is going to be happening now its unbelievable really how well i know him and his habits now from what ive been learning, and this poor young girl is totally blind to it. he did tell me her name and where she works which i was suprised but im not getting involved or warning her or anything. if i hear something i am just going to observe and not be involved in any of it. i think the young ones he can con better and he knows that now and also i think hes learning older woman expect more than he can provide. its funny i feel a bit relieved cause now i know whats going to happen i dont need to be wondering. i can see now the way he was talking last night i dont mean a thing to him and he just wants to hurt me, he only needs me when he has no one else .anyway good luck to you wether your dating or not. i think we all deserve a beautiful true man to love. everyone one here all of us. let meknow whats happening, i feel strength in sharing with you all.j

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    Friday, 22 February 2008 @ 5:34am

33. Beverly says:

    Jules. You are reflecting the pain you felt and is similar to pain I felt and still do feel to think my ex N had his tried and tested ways of securing women at different levels of play – presumably that is why he had a dozen mobile phones? They will use what ever methods bring them the most success and their confidence is bolstered so much, they are charismatic and on a high which makes them so appealing and that blended with charm is desirable. Because my exN was fairly agressive looking I thought he was theft proof – but what I didnt realise is that women love a badboy – he was able to secure women easily once he got into the swing and he must have taken great delight in getting me to give him a reference for a job in a place (unbeknown to me) that is almost the entire workforce is made up of women nurses, social workers of his target age groups – he has almost unlimited prey on his territory and because he looks after security he can really run his persona of protector to the full and seduce co-workers – which is what he did. Again thinking that I was safe because he was telling me that he had the numbers of staff married women, what I didnt realise is that he chose them to keep himself safe. He is a security guard there and I bet he is thinking he is king of the castles. They exploit the female at her very core (or male) brutually wounding, these are the actions of people who hate their opposite gender.

    i still feel jealous and sit thinking about how they met, what she looks like, what he said about me, where they go, whether he had started his nonsense yet and how he did that – it is only natural to think about these things. And here am I still in the aftershock of the relationship with no partner, still feeling pained and here he is having skipped off with another so quickly – an equally shocking barrier to put in. And yes that feels unfair and my next door neighbour has a new boyfriend and my friend is getting married, so that compounds my aloneness. I have to be strong and stay with my aloneness, because I hate to think what a life with him would have been like. But it is natural to feel curiosity and envy – as like you, I do. But we know it wont last and if it does, the woman will have to be captured or enchanted as they put it, so that she succumbs to her partner’s whims – a kind of cloning process.

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    Friday, 22 February 2008 @ 6:34am

34. LilOrphan says:

    Jules

    You asked: “do all spaths network and look up old friends to try to meet woman this way, this seems like a pattern to me. ”

    Yes. As a matter of fact, yes, they do. It’s “recycling of Narcissistic Supply” and they are notorious for it! And, guess what? That person means no more to them than you did, or the person before you, or the person before that, or the one who will be next (most likely unknowingly part of a triangle with the current one).

    They cannot be alone. They cannot face themselves alone. Imagine a blank canvas in front of your eyes 24 hours a day, seven days a week, with no meaning, nothing to make your heart feel lighter, or heavier. Just nothing.

    That’s them. They have to fill the canvas. We do it by love and passion for people we really care for. We do it by nurturing our insides through memories, thoughts, feelings.

    They do it by “harvesting” supply from outside. And they will use anyone they can either as a mirror or a way to find a mirror, until that source gets boring or gets wise.

    I am learning not to take this personally. It is what it is; they do what they do. All his “love” was no more honest and real than all the abusive things he said about me and did towards me were real or true. Best not to internalize their statements and actions, lest we make them our own.

    Am sorry you’re hurting. The less personal you can make what he did to you, the easier it will be to get through it.

    It was never going to get any better – no matter what level of wonderful you became towards him. Just know that you could not change the outcome, no matter what.

    Hugs to you.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 22 February 2008 @ 11:24am

35. jules says:

    lil orphan: thanks a gain for your feed back. recycling of narcissistic supply. wow it has a name i knew it was something to do with his s pathic be haviour cause it keeps hapening every time he gets dumps he goes looking for old friends contacts usually woman of course and as he says catches up, but its just networking to me their not friends i dont think he has any friends only conveniences to use as links to other woman or social contacts and i now see so clearly that once he and i were done and he said he wanted to be friends still, he was just using me as another one of these contacts when he had no one else. i feel better to know what you told me that this actually has a name where did you find that out? and harvesting that is exactly what he does. i never knew a man or anyone to have so many friends old and new and like anyone else you sor t of move away from some old friends fo r whatevr reason he goes back and digs them up at his will, and to my suprise they usually go along with it. i do wonder if it wil all go wrong this time a round she is young and probably totally blind to men like him he loves the innocent ones who lap up his attention, without questions. he is slightly different to some s paths i read about he is perfect and will do everything for you until you do something he does not like, like question him or his behaviour or look into his personel stuff. but even when he was behaving well there were little things i found out he was doing behind my back. like when we first met and he was supossed to be falling in love with me i foundout he was flirting with girls at our work place. like he cant help himself always looking for something else better in his eyes as soon as your out of sight. also they are complete opportunists[ sorry my spelling] so if this young girl does not wake up and lookinto things a bit deeper it may be great for them . but i am a thinker and i like to know whats going on so i was different. maybe some girls dont think like that and just enjoy everything he puts out. he is good looking which helps him he is charming affectionate, fun a good lover he really has it all so i can see how they get mesmerised. its funny cause i have a family friend who has schizophrenia and he also is a opportunists too . so maybe its a comon link in mental illness. also what do you mean they use anyone as a mirror? i havent heard of this before either. thanks for your kind words and for understanding me and what im going through. it does just p…. me off to know he always lands on his feet and i have to struggle to meet one new person . its just hard i wish i could see some karma come back to him. any way i am going out tonight on date with a guy i met on the dating sight he is nice, not sure how into him i am but at least hes taking me out and i wont be sitting at home alone thinking about you know what. do you have contact with your ex s path? thanks again to you . hugs back j

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    Friday, 22 February 2008 @ 10:02pm

36. findingmyselfagain says:

    This made me remember a moment when – yes they are always on the look for another woman – even tho they are supposedly happy with you. At Christmas we were at the grocery store, in line to pay and I just knew the woman ahead of us was something he could not resist. She had the right look. Well we stood there awhile and then I kind of forgot about her but he said why dont you go get a pointsettia for the house – so I walked up to the front of the store to pick one out and as I turned and looked back, he had created that moment without me so he could flirt with her. He made some comment to her and she laughed outloud.

    I put the pointsettia back on the shelf and marched back to the line. He said why did you put it back? I said I dont want it. You only sent me over there so you could flirt with her. Of course, he didnt noooo such thing – it was not what I thought. They were only laughing about some little comment he made – blah blah blah.

    Anyway – there were so many moments like that that, yes, I oould have been making something out of nothing I guess, but my gut told me exactly what was happening and I even sensed it before he sent me off to get the flower.

    What I thought was a nice thing at first – he was getting me the plant – turned into yet another heavy icky feeling inside.

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    Friday, 22 February 2008 @ 10:13pm

37. jules says:

    Bev. thanks for writing. i know , i met mine at work and there was lots of attractive girls working there he was in heaven working there. and i found out things that happened with the girls there that he lied to me about too. i wont go into it but just stupid things he did withthem that he lied to me about. he isnt so much a bad boy but iknow what you mean woman find that exciting its true. but he is smooth as, he works out is very fit and works on his apearence like its very important clothes hair accesories the works he takes longer to get ready than me and i often could nt get to the mirror cause he ws using it. anyway he doesnt have anything sucsess wise but he looks good and is charming and sweet he puts on the innocent rather than bad boy. and they fall for it. i am curious and that is ok im not fighting it anymore just letting it go in and out and observing what he does without getting involved it is funny actually to see what happens. im not so much jelous but annoyed cause he always finds someone and i want a relationship and find it hard to meet people. he has so many friends andi dont. just not fair he has all the luck and i dont.thanks j.

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    Friday, 22 February 2008 @ 10:19pm

38. Beverly says:

    Jules, My ex N has nothing, no home, no money and he looks aggressive, but that hasnt put women off falling for his promises of protecting them like their knight in shining armor, he works in the security industry so he can easily play this image to the max especially at work, where he commented once that the women in the building were grateful and in awe of his protection.

    It still hurts though, but long term we know they will never have the possibility of a fulfilling loving relationships by taking the short cuts and manipulations they do. But in the short term, their ability to seduce more women does not have to rely on good looks or assets, as my N exploits his masculinity to the full and women fall for that. What makes me mad, is all that advice (and it makes sense) to women about making yourself the best you can be to attain your perfect catch is all b…s..t when it comes to the way they operate. They dont bother with really wanting to get to know you as a person that they love, or give to you because they want to honour you as a person and make life good for you. Any window dressing they do, is to exploit and take.

    My ex N could be a taker (he was sometimes generous, but always out of context and quite clumsily) – most of the dates we had I bought every other round of drinks and he accepted that. Now and again he put himself in first position by buying me a meal, but he was never in deficit to me and he carefully weighed up the balance sheet. This smacks of someone who either knows he is not going to be in the relationship long term, or is trying to modify his behaviour – trying to iron out his greedy tactics, or even having experienced this before in other relationships and what the outcomes are. They are always on the take and I got wise to him. He started coming round my place to watch porn and he would come over and 30 mins later would ask to go on the internet – he must have thought I was a fool not to notice that! the more I shone a light on his behaviour, the wiser I became – couldnt put an entire meaning on what he was doing (that came after we finished) – but realised that all his phony charade was concealing something more devious and I didnt want to be a part of that.

    There are so many sideshows on the internet that are tempting people into a kind of free for all. These sideshows give the impression that this free for all is mainstream and that everybody is engaged. Whilst I honour peoples’ rights to engage in whatever activity they want, there is a big difference to going onto these sites to exploit and abuse people and unfortunately for any who want to go that way, there is not an immediate way of weeding out the abusers from the others.

    Spoke to a guy last nite who openly admitted that he uses women. Problem is with this where access to sexual content and activity so easily available, some people may think that they can get the cream without having to go through the angst of investing in a relationship and I think there will be more people like that – not just the people with PSD but others who are possibily already prone to being narcissistic.

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    Saturday, 23 February 2008 @ 5:48am

39. Beverly says:

    The operative statement here is ‘without consent’.

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    Saturday, 23 February 2008 @ 6:48am

40. LilOrphan says:

    Jules

    You said: “i feel better to know what you told me that this actually has a name where did you find that out?”

    One night when I couldn’t take it anymore with the S/P, his weird statements, the not moving forward, the demeaning, silent treatment, weird gaslighting…I typed something into google…funny, but now I don’t even remember, almost a year later. It came back with Narcissism. So I read everything available on N’s…here I thought they were the “life of the party” guys and this guy was not that. He wasn’t even particularly charming or engaging. But he was arrogant — even mutual acquaintances talked about how arrogant he is — and secretive, withholding, cold, distant, addicted to alcohol and just flipping ODD. He kept leaving and coming back into my life and had done it to others — the last time it had been five years of silence or better.

    Was like getting hit with bricks, that week of discovery.

    A mirror…N’s need a mirror reflecting their “perfection” back at them. When the mirror cracks, like when they do something and you dare to say, “hey, wait a minute – that’s not fair/right/kind/loving/ethical….” you no longer serve to mirror their greatness and give them the adoration they need. At that point, or later, you get deliberate cruelty and they disappear.

    And yes, they’re always looking for the next woman. Always. Right in front of you, obviously and painfully to you. They’re entitled, they believe, to do whatever they wish, whenever they wish, to whomever they wish and damn the consequences. Mostly because they see other people as chess pieces, or objects to be manipulated – not really separate people with their own feelings and needs.

    It really is impersonal for them. Has to be, because they do not have feelings and cannot really love…so everything in their lives is impersonal. Does that make sense?

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    Saturday, 23 February 2008 @ 9:55am

41. Beverly says:

    Jules, my ex N was arrogant, cold, distant, controlled and after waving his ‘evidence’ under my nose, dropping hints, making weird statements, doing strange things, confusing me and dropping in calculated absences designed to make me squirm and develop his ‘prize quality’.

    Like you when I questioned him, he would punish me in some subtle way – we never argued – but he distanced and worked on my insecurities as his ultimate defence.

    Yes by being blocked off from feelings, it allows them free reign to act without remorse or responsibility – what a playground for them! I reflect back on how my ex N was cruel and subtle, that is why I didnt cotton on at first. I knew that his weird distancing behaviour was going against how much he said he adored and ‘cherised’ me, its just I couldnt make sense of it – i knew he was up to something.

    Finally, after he left I got an almightly shock realising that he had been a total fraud and that my feelings had been hurt for very good reason and that I wasnt making it up or exaggerating, because when i saw the power in the subtle and calculated tactics he used to bring me up and then pull me down, I realised that being subtle is his perfect defence and is not easily noticed by others. He is probably the worst loser I have been out with, is actually not a very nice person, has nothing, dislikes society – that is probably why he needs to hypnotise someone to have him – he would never be chosen on his own merit. But he can get away with it – temporarily.

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    Saturday, 23 February 2008 @ 10:21am

42. jules says:

    lilorphan; thank you so much for your insight. i now think after reading that, that mine might of beena N as well as a s path. which i never thought of before. he is as i have said charming, funny happy, sweet, affectionate and all good things but a slo arrogant but subtle so most doent see, and yes secretive very. the mirror thing is what makes me think he is a N because when we met he was so into being with me he had have me and went all out. but now i think i may have been a mirror for him cause he saw things in my life that he thought would make him look better and would improve his life. but when he found something about me which was not perfect for him things changed almost imediately. he found out i was more than ten years older than him but i dont look it and i dont think he knew he never asked me and then when it came up i noticed him change, but he stayed with me and went along for the ride but things were different from then on he wasnt as loving toward me, and i think he was looking around behind my back. so i guess he saw a crack in themirror i wasnt so perfect for him. yet he is far from perfect him self. in the end i think he just had no use for me anymore so after a year he left suddenly, but still wanted casual sex for a nother year after that saying we were friends and that he cared for me. but i do wonder if i wasnt older and the mirror did not crack if he would have stayed anyway? i think i am going to look up info on the net about N s cause i have read a lot aobut s path which i think and have been told by experts he is but i havent read a bout the N. can they be both? i agree totally that he is impersonel but he was a great actor and really seemed to convince even him self that he was deeply in love it seemed real it really did. maybe cause they cant feel it they imitate it so well. i have the feeling he will be saying and using things that happened with us to the new girl right now i just know that. if i go read about the N i bet i see alot of his personality. like i did when i started readinga bout s paths it opens your eyes big time. do you know what good web sites i could look at . thanks for your help .

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    Saturday, 23 February 2008 @ 10:35pm

43. Grace63 says:

    Hi everyone, I was reading some of the comments above, and the diagnoses that I would give my ex…definitely a sociopath, also a narcissist, and possibly borderline personality disordered as well…funny thing is…these things all overlap tremendously from what I can see…I don’t understand how anyone can just be ONE! Also, from what I have read, and gathered from this site as well as from some experts…sociopathy can be measured on a spectrum…NOT ALL SOCIOPATHS are created equally…there are a range of behaviors that qualify them, and not all of them have everyone of the behaviors…

    Jules, my ex was very charming, funny, sweet, affectionate as well..but, he was JUST MIRRORING…reflecting back ME, and my behaviors…and, upon looking back, I recall how he pretty much was an empty shell, and did a lot reflecting, and basically had no personality of his own…it was all borrowed from whomever he was spending time with at the time.

    Yes, THE MAN was very much into image, control, manipulation, cruelty, pathological lying, stealing, conning, hurting family, friends, and everyone he came in contact with…the man had no ability to truly care, empathize, or be a stable, honest person.

    He was clearly a narcissist, and would often seem to fall apart if he didn’t get positive attention all the time. Also, he couldn’t deal with any kind conflict whatsoever. In fact, he would become an emotional terrorist when challenged, and often projected his own dis-ease and sickness onto me. Also, he could not say he was sorry.

    Once I told him he had to say sorry to my daughter for what he had said and done to her, and HE DID, but, he came back with tears in his eyes (which to this day, I am not sure if it was manipulation or shame from a part of his personality that has yet to be identified; I had seen him nearly in tears as well when I told him I didn’t care for the homemade soup he had made for me one night.) It was weird, because by this time, I knew he couldn’t take negative feedback…so I was hoping he wouldn’t ask me what I thought of it…Sadly, it was HIS TEARS that made him seem more human, not a horrible sociopath. Anyway, it doesn’t matter WHY he cried now. Some things I will never understand…

    One good website for Narcissism is Sam Vaknin’s site…he’s the author of Malignant Self Love, Narcissism Revisted.

    Regarding the original topic of “The fantasy of magic moments with the sociopath” — one thing for sure is…I don’t have any of these such fantasies anymore. I would be INSANE to buy into the fantasies anymore…but, I certainly do understand that I was kind of my own type of insane when I was with him, because over and over and over I continued to do the same thing, forgive him, and then expect him to change…this is kind of crazy. Regardless, I know I inherited some dysfunctional ways of coping, and I no longer have to cope this way…and, I sure learned some valuable lessons.
    No, I WAS NOT responsible for his behavior, but, I did BUY INTO THE FANTASY and his lies. I am much wiser and stronger now, and no longer will be this easy to con and manipulate.

    Its been a year since we split–that I called the cops on him for the newly discovered 5 warrants he had out for his arrest…and obtained a restraining order on him…and, its only beenin the last couple months that I am feeling “normal” MOST of the time…I still get obsessive sometimes about “studying’ sociopathy, narcissism etc…but, I know I don’t want him to have any kind of control or say in my life these days…so I try to use imagery, talk to friends, come to this site, therapy, fun, laughter, and meditation to help me with my tendency to obsess over unhealthy thoughts about him…

    Slowly but surely i am healing…and, hell yes, it feels GREAT!!!!! And, it has to be one of the greatest lessons in my life…I have to be on the look out for how I truly want to BELIEVE that ALL people are good…because they simply are not…BUT, I can be happy regardless…I WILL BE HAPPY regardless…

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    Sunday, 24 February 2008 @ 12:42am

44. alohatraveler says:

    Grace63,

    wow, I love what you wrote. 99% of it sounded like me. And I did notice some peculiar things about the Bad Man.. that he used my own words right back at me as if they were his own. And I know that he took a concept I gave him and packaged it as his own and used it to seduce another woman. STRANGE.

    I noticed that he tweaked his Match.com profile constantly and it seemed to reflect details about whomever was his last prospect. It was so obvious and strange. Like who would write, “I like petite brunette marine biology students.” Only he would think that makes sense in an ad. I didn’t know why before but now I do.

    And I love what you said about accepting that there ARE bad people in the world and we can still be happy. Of course, why didn’t I think of this?! I LOVE IT!

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    Sunday, 24 February 2008 @ 1:26am

45. jules says:

    grace; thanks for your advice i am going to look at that site. and i agree mine was a pathological liar too. and he also cried a few times when we were tog ethr one year. once he cried when we were being intimate he got very emtional and cried . and another time when we were breaking up and i had caught him lying a gain and i had proof and he just said i lie all the time and he started crying like he was ashamed but when i asked why he lies he just said cause im scared of people knowing the truth? what ever that meant it confused me totally. and yes maybe he was just mirroring me too. i think also he has many different problems that over lap. cause somethings a s path is suposed to do he doesnt and other things he does i know he is ok with money and doesnt steal as far as i know, but he is attracted to wealth and the wealthy.like you said into image. and like you too i allowed a lot of things to happen cause i fell for the crap and kept forgiving him and really loved him. i also have to know that not all people are good and deserve my love. i dont want to obsess but i need to learn so i can understand why i feel like this . thank you for you in put it helps.

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    Sunday, 24 February 2008 @ 6:24am

46. LilOrphan says:

    Jules –

    All P/S’s are N’s, but not all N’s are sociopaths. The Narcissism has to be there in order for them to be a sociopath, but not all narcissists are violent or other sociopath qualities. For instance, mine never stole a single dollar from me or relied on me financially; he was very good about paying for things himself, and I don’t think he’d ever end up in prison for ANYTHING. But he was definitely an N and a different type of S. The site Grace mentioned is also where I learned a lot but I wasn’t sure we were allowed to mention other links and sites on this forum. Their forum is excellent, as well as others out on the Net.

    Steven Carter at Powerblog (google him) also has a really good Q&A about commitmentphobia where you can write and ask him questions. He’s written a book called “Help! I’m in love with a Narcissist” that I read when I was still seeing The Wolf, along with his commitmentphobia books, that was very illuminating.

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    Sunday, 24 February 2008 @ 8:05am

47. jules says:

    grace and lil orph; thanks to you both for helping me sort this out. grace i read the web site you mentioned and most of it sounds just like my ex he was a N as well as spath. i was interested that it said on that web site that most N problems stem from the mother in males. cause i always thought his mum had something to do with his ways. it made me see why he uses his friends and contacts when he is lonely the way he does reading that site. but it did say on there that they arent that into sex which is not true in his case very into sex and different partners when not in a relationship. but his behaviours seem to over lap between N and spath. its good to learn this for my self. lil orph; mine also never ripped me off with money he was generous for his financial capacity and always paid his way. i will check out the web site you mentioned too. thanks a gain for your support.

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    Monday, 25 February 2008 @ 12:39am

48. LilOrphan says:

    Jules, you are so welcome. The only difference in how things played out this time around versus all the others with the Wolf lay solely in the area of knowledge. Once I read everything available, including Dr. V, their forums, this blog and everything under NPD and AsD it was so clear to me that this guy fit the profile. Except for not glib or charming. He had a quiet charm, but not overt. Rather, he was the “playa” type who would tweak your nose to get you interested…pick on you…infuriate you. Irascible charm, I guess.

    At any rate, once your eyes are opened to all this and you learn how none of it has anything to do with you personally, it’s more liberating and freeing than any amount of “closure.” Since it’s not a normal relationship with a normal person, you never get closure with the S/P. The best to hope for is connect-the-dots, and the information from these sites gives that to us.

    All P/S’s are N’s. Some are somatic (really into sex – sounds like what you describe) and some are cerebral (use sex as a hook but don’t really care for it – or have one woman for “mummy” to adore and no sex, and another or more for the sex).

    By the time you’re done researching, you’ll be able to write a book!!

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    Monday, 25 February 2008 @ 9:05am

49. alohatraveler says:

    I just added this link to another thread. It was sent to me by Peggy Pseu and it blew me away.

    If you were with a verbal, emotional, psychological abuser, check out this article.

    http://www.obgyn.net/displayar.....Romeopart5

    WOW is all I can say. This describes the Bad Man to a “T” and also describes psychologically what we go through as the victim in this bizarre head trip.

    Thanks “Peggy” for sending it to me.

    Aloha……… Elise

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    Monday, 25 February 2008 @ 4:42pm

50. findingmyselfagain says:

    I’ve mentioned before, but a book called “Women who Run with the Wolves” also is very good. It is kind of long but I took my time reading and digesting it page by page during and after my relationship with my S.. I learned tons about myself and sociopathic type personalities and how they manipulate. Has anyone hear read it?

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    Monday, 25 February 2008 @ 11:14pm

51. findingmyselfagain says:

    whoops – I meant has anyone “here”, read it! sorry for the error

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    Monday, 25 February 2008 @ 11:15pm

52. jules says:

    lil orph ; and everyone who is helping me. i am feeling a bit angry tonight two strange things happened to day first i saw a photo of the ex spath new girl and she is spitting image of me but younger same shape face same size short, same colouring the whole thing i was so pi….d off when i saw that picture. what is he doing. then to top off my day the guy i met from a dating site who i have been out with about 3 dates now and thought this was going ok till i saw he has been back on the site and was active the last night we went out on date. after he told me he was more or less not going to be on there and wasnt that interested in the site anymore. well he had been on there every day we went out. and its not serious or anything but i thought he liked me enough to have re spect to at least tell me the truth if he was going to be looking around on that web site still. so i thought i am going to be assertive cause i think he thought i would be none the wiser if he didnt tell me . so i called him and said i know youve been on there , how do you feel about how things are going between us, cause i dont really want to continue to get to know you i f your going to be dating other woman all the time you see me. anyway i just put it out there i also let him know i do want to get to know him still but just dont want to messed around. so now i dont know how he took this he seemed ok. but i may of scared him off. but i am glad i spoke up i just dont want to be kept in the dark like that i think it is better to know whats going on with each other if we continue. he knows a little bit aobut my past but not everything not how bad it was with s path. he is also coming out of a marriage where he had problems withhis wife lying ect so i hope he understands. i feel like ringing the ex s apth in regards to this new girl look alike and saying this time when it doesnt work out dont call text me or come to my work or anything . cause this is what he normally does. and i am over being treated like his rescue girl. then when he gets on his feet again he drops me. but i am not going to contact him i know i should not. it makes me mad cause i know he will be on a big high swooning over this new girl and she looks very innocent. just wish some good luck would come my way and feel like i have suffered enough and been lonely enough 2 years without reall long relationship . just want get on with life. whydoes the universe make it so hard for us victims of these people. also thanks a gian for the web site referals i will look at all of these for some guidence. i have heard of woman who run with wolves but idid not know what it was aobut .sorry my typing is so bad tonight. reading about the N has helped me i am sure he is one too as well as spath.

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    Tuesday, 26 February 2008 @ 6:46am

53. LilOrphan says:

    Jules :

    I can hear how much you are hurting, and I’m sorry for it. They can leave some incredible devastation behind, the biggest being the trouble of trying to sort through what was illusion and what was real. As before, the advice would be to do the opposite of what you did while interacting with the S’path — at the time you took everything he said and did as 100 percent real and honest, right? Now that it’s over, think of it as 100 percent false and fake, just like they are as people.

    That eliminates a great deal of “what if?” “why did he?” “what will he do” kind of thinking. View it like a band-aid while you are first beginning to heal; in the long-run, you may want to inspect the wound but initially it’s just too raw to poke at.

    You’ve been ’round more than once with this guy, from what you say, right? That increases the likelihood he will be back and it increases the danger, because you’ve become a “part” of him. He won’t want to completely let that part go…so it’s likely he will try to come back.

    You’re smart not to let him. The next time I will ever willingly see the P I encountered will be when he’s in an urn or when I’m looking down from heaven. Not in this life. That’s how dangerous I think any contact with him is. Plus, he turns my stomach now, just thinking of everything about him.

    I had lots of go-rounds, too. In a way, it gets easier because this time, it was clear half of what came out of his mouth was an outright lie and the other half, a fib. There was no “there” there in him and the puppet strings were almost visible. But it still cost me too much in time, heart, investment, thoughts…things you can never replace.

    Just stay away from him. If you can master that one little thing, and in the meantime work on yourself, this will become a bad memory.

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    Tuesday, 26 February 2008 @ 8:01am

54. notquitebroken says:

    I really understand how you feel, Jules. I tried to get into another relationship hard on the heels of the one with Mr. Wrong. I thought I could drown my sorrows in new love, and I thought that if he was moving on so quickly, I could show him I would, too. It failed miserably. I met a very nice guy who should have been perfect, at least on paper. He was nice looking, successful, charming, really seemed to like me, and I was frozen like a deer in the headlights. I couldn’t move, couldn’t breathe, couldn’t stand the thought of another relationship even though there was every reason to move on. I just wasn’t capable yet, and I wound up hurting this other guy and scaring myself that I was one step closer to being One of Their Kind because I was so frozen and numb.

    I spent the next several months determined not to see anyone else or get involved. You know what? It bugged Mr. Wrong a whole lot MORE when he found out I wasn’t seeing anyone. I even told him I didn’t need someone else when he called to ask questions. I told him I’d rather be alone forever than with someone who would deliberately hurt me and treat me like just another one of his harem. They’re incapable of being by themselves and need someone else to suck the soul out of, but we’re stronger than that. When we’re with someone, it’s because we want to be, NOT because we have this gaping hole in our psyches that needs to be filled by hurting others. If you’re rushing yourself into another relationship too soon, it’s not only going to fail, but it’s going to make him think you can’t get over him when it falls apart. Baffle his psychopathic mind by finding the things you love about yourself and learning to enjoy time alone with YOU that doesn’t involve him. Take a class in something that interests you or start doing something that you didn’t have time for when you were with him. Remember the you that you LIKED before he came along and made you doubt everything, because she’s still in there. He didn’t kill her, even though he’s still trying. Don’t let him.

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    Tuesday, 26 February 2008 @ 10:25am

55. Beverly says:

    I read ‘Women who run with the Wolves’ years and years ago, but I dont remember PDs being in it, and I obviously didnt take much notice that time around!

    Jules, dating is always a pain and its the bit that no-one likes. But you are right, if you dont set your standards at the beginning then you are giving a message that you are available whatever they do. If the man wants to keep in the dating pool and see you, he should tell you, so you know where you stand, but of course some want not to be honest and have their cake! i havent seen my ex’s girlfriend yet, but I feel certain that she will probably have certain assets he is particularly keen on and I wouldnt be surprised if she resembles me, but it really hurts.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 26 February 2008 @ 11:43am

56. lilygirl says:

    jules & any woman who feels “jealous” of her S with another woman – you might want to take a look here –

    http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....cial.shtml

    it’s called ‘you think that you are so special – that he will be different with you…In memory of the machinations of a borderline controller, with condolences to all the other women who came before (and will come after), and once thought THEY were special too..’

    while it is a long rant from a woman who was obviously burned by a S and now sees him with another woman, over the years, the words have helped me heal – every time i have that “omg! she is going to have the life i would have had with him!” feeling.

    you know that feeling? like somehow she will get the wonderful life YOU could have had? that is when the second-guessing seeps into my mind…

    i read it over again tonight – i have little ditties of writings i’ve collected over the years, i really like this one…

    and if he is with another woman – pray for her. don’t hate her, even if he uses her to hurt you. pray for her.

    and as for my S, he is circling again, like a vulture. two text messages today, which i have ignored. but he will turn up the volume, i am sure. i have been through five years of this, where he destroys me, i tell him to get lost and then he promises to change.

    it is amazing to me that he doesn’t yet understand einstein’s definition of insanity – doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.

    if he drives me away, i will not come back. that simple!

    my little boy, he’s seven, gave me a blue ribbon with VIP on it today.

    he said, mom, you deserve it. for everything you have been through in raising me, and what you’ve been through with S, you deserve a blue ribbon. stay strong!

    god bless his little head, which tonight is sporting a faux-hawk that he pressed together when his hair was wet….

    i am NC in honor of him.

    lg

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 26 February 2008 @ 9:09pm

57. jules says:

    okthis is to all of you above who wrote to me. i thank you all. well update, the guy i met on the internet who i said i want him to be truth full and tell me if hes dating other woman on there, hasnt called since that conversation and hes going away this weekend so i guess he didnt like what i said. well thats the gamble i dont think anything is wrong with asking someone that after three dates its just respect isnt it. anyway i sent him a text saying have a good weekend and call me when you get back if you want to. also i have been apart from the s path two years, before that we lived to gethr for one year. so after two years yes i do want to date and have a relationship with someone else i think that is a long time to be alone and my age has a lot to do with this i am 40 and i want to get on with my life. so i dont think i am rushing into dating a gian. i also would like to have a child whichi dont have any. i appreciate what you all tell me and i do think about all your information when trying to cope. and i will read the links and web sites i have been. i think in his warped way he has tried to punish me so much since he left me which is ironic why punish when you are the one leaving? But i do feel sorry for the new girl, i know at the moment all will be great fantastic in fact but in time she will have to endure all the sh…. t too like being with a guy who doesnt even drive or have a car you feel like his personal taxi driver. and just the way he smothers you it is addictive but a little annoying and you go why so much? And other things like his vanity really annoyed me he is so into his own looks .if i keep thinking of the bad things it makes me feel gald not to be her . also it took us a while before we had sex he was trying to make me think he could wait. but when we did then he became annoying he just wanted to touch me all the time around the house all the time just doing normal things like washing up or whatever he just wanted more and more. he tries to get you addicted to sex as he is. anyway so glad youall understand me it helps and i will see what happens like yousaid maybe he will try and come back if she wakes up and i will be unavailable that would feel nice. do you think the really innocent girls have doubts about the s paths as well or are they blind to it. i was a bit more experienced and older and i did get gut feelings which i ignored . but just wondering what you think. ok thanks to you all again xxj

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    Wednesday, 27 February 2008 @ 6:36am

58. LilOrphan says:

    Jules

    It’s an illogical answer to us normal people, but the answer to your question, “i think in his warped way he has tried to punish me so much since he left me which is ironic why punish when you are the one leaving?” for an N/P or S’path is this:

    They are punishing you because you accepted them leaving. By not chasing after them, by not pining for them, by not acting as though they are as special as their false selves assume they are, you invalidated their false self. You inflicted what is called a “narcissistic injury” (read about them at the site Grace gave you).

    They may have wanted to leave, or, in the case with my situation, have made your life so unbearable you HAD TO leave just to stay healthy. They can even leave you. The “how” doesn’t matter. Fact is, you are out of his fold, away from his power, and he feels as though a piece of himself has gone missing.

    He takes pieces of everyone to fill his own inner void and you become like an object to him, or part of himself. Imagine if your own arm went missing one day, just jumped up and hopped off by itself. First you’d be freaked-out, even if you’d come to view that arm as ugly or useless or taken it for granted. Eventually, you’d want that arm back, if only to make yourself feel whole.

    It’s (again) POWER and CONTROL. When they lose it, they grow impotent with rage. They’re determined to have your attention again, whether positive or negative doesn’t matter.

    This is part of what makes them dangerous when they’re not directly exerting their crazy mind games and abuse over you.

    To them, there is no grey area – it is all win or lose, black or white. Right now, your absence and unwillingness to return makes you the winner, in his mind — and he can’t have that.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 27 February 2008 @ 8:37am

59. Beverly says:

    Jules, I have thought about the ending too. My ex N set up the ending by giving me the text messages of the women he was seeing. But i never turned the phone on, just put it in my drawer for couple of months. So he stepped up the heat by giving me another phone with their phone numbers on. I was astonished but I didnt finish it. So he ‘arranged’ unbeknown to me to meet one of his women.

    So in his mind, he fixed the ending, I reacted and told him to get out and he went. But he punished me by doing this, as previously I spoke up to him, so in his mind he was settling the score and no doubt felt justified to cheat on me and have the satisfaction of being like a hit man and just watching me fall. The thing is, because I had suspected him of cheating for a while, I just sat and waited for him to mess things up, as I knew he would – so one wonders who was actually in control of the ending (they cant say no and cant say yes). He probably has his version – but I have mine!

    once, during a breakup I saw him in town and he looked at me and I didnt acknowledge him. when I got home, I got nasty messages from him – now all these little riddles are solved! My ex N doesnt act needy or dependent, he acts very very aloof, very detached, cool, very very independent and I keep having to realise that this well polished veneer covers a person who is so desparate to be in control – is needy. His need to be in control OF EVERY ASPECT of our relationship became evident very quickly, but he did it cleverly by distancing and detaching, making out that he wasnt really bothered about me, (which he wasnt), but ticking me off when i didnt behave how he wanted me to. He was also the most rigid, black and white thinking person I have ever met. But he was also very deceiving because when I spoke to him, I am sure he was thinking alot of stuff about me and what I was saying that he wasnt telling me about e.g. like thinking I am a silly b…h.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 27 February 2008 @ 4:28pm

60. jules says:

    lil orph and bev; you are both right hes been punishing me evn though he left me in a really ugly way he just thought all of a suden i was too old for him even though he proclaimed he loved me al the way thru a dn wanted to be to gether for ever. and i felt like a[posession until he found someone else told her how bad i was and didnt want to have anything to do with me. so now if i ignore him i hope it had the desired a ffect on him of why isnt she giving me attention and i think he will get bored of the new girl. yes bev mine too is very distant and acts like it doesnt matter if he sees or talks to me. espec when he has a woman in his life i dont really hear from him at all. but when he has got no one or he gets dumped and thinks he has no one hes straight on the phone to see me. this is what really was getting to me just lifting and laying me . he acts aloof and like he doesnt care what im doing or who i am doing it with, but now i know his behaviour i think they want to know whats going on in our life as much as we wonder about them they are just as curious i think but they hide it so they dont seem weak. im sure of this. bev mine also tried to fix the ending by sending himself a text message as if it was from a woman, but he made it up cause he knows that i would be angry and prob break it up. but i didnt i was angry but i didnt end it so when i confronted him about another lie he told me and i had the proof he just said he was leaving but hed been thinking about it for a while. then he said i still want to be friends i dont want you to be lonely, and he played on that and tried to keep sleeping with me for about a year on and off till he met someone and then dropped me even as a friend very quickly so hes been like this for 2 years. every time he got hurt he came looking for me to lick his wounds , and a s timing went i was always single when he did this even though i had seen a few different people in between.. so its all a game somtimes very hard to follow and very hard to explain to others. i am just tired i just want to meet a normal guy. was disapointed a bout the internet dating guy, i just wanted him to be honest about if he was seeing other woman is that too much. it is so hard, but i am glad i spoke my mind i deserve that resepect just as much as anybody. so ill keep trying to get on. also i read the bleeding romeo web site somone posted on here wow theymust of been dating my ex spath it is so spot on wow just reading that i wanted to send it to the new girl i could cause he told me where she works but i dont want to look like a freak he would just know it was me and talk his way out of it. but good to read it. love to you all and thnk you xj.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 27 February 2008 @ 7:07pm

61. LilOrphan says:

    Wow, Beverly – your last post described my S’path to a TEE! From attitude to phony lone wolf arrogance to even the description of the way things ended – like he was a hit-man, enjoying your fall because you had previously dared to respect your own boundaries.

    A complete and utter needy control freak, and sadistic to the nth degree, underneath that cool exterior.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 27 February 2008 @ 7:15pm

62. jules says:

    yes girls mine too exactly like this description sadistic and phony and arrogant.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 28 February 2008 @ 7:15am

63. distraught says:

    A friend had loaned me her copy of Women Who Run With Wolves years ago–I never read it–still on my shelf. I think it’s time to dust if off and read it. Thanks!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 28 February 2008 @ 10:11am

64. LilOrphan says:

    I’m guessing, distraught, that the particular chapter that might be illuminating with regard to the S’Path is the legend of Bluebeard. That’s where, when rereading “Women…” last year, the first trigger went off on what the Wolf really is.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 28 February 2008 @ 2:04pm

65. findingmyselfagain says:

    yes the book is full of stories relating to all we talk about here. It tells it in a folk tale form, then goes back and compares it to real life with these kinds of men. It never calls them by the label “Sociopath” but you will recognize your relationship all throughout. Dont be overwhelmed – its a big book and lots of info.. just read it in small amounts and digest. Its fabulous and I came to realize so clearly what my S was all about by reading it.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 28 February 2008 @ 9:19pm

66. alohatraveler says:

    Everyone,

    Do you ever feel like when you read here, you think to yourself, “hmmm… that is what that weird little moment was about.” It is such a trip to me that the tiniest things, that seemed so small sometimes, but still made an impression on my mind… have been explained here at LoveFraud.

    I continue to learn and heal and grow as I read everyone’s comments and to repeat the cliche of the day, I am so thankful for this site and all the readers/writers here.

    The clinical stuff I have read has been helpful but to hear the experiences put into words with real people, there is nothing more healing.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 28 February 2008 @ 10:40pm

67. lilygirl says:

    i am sitting here giggling to myself…

    hmmm, that is what that weird moment was about….i was just having one as you posted this aloha….weird indeed!

    my S turned up the contact this week (which i have ignored) and through my good sisters and brothers here i have actually figured out his latest manipulation.

    the specifics aren’t important to you guys, but please know, that through this support, i am actually SEEING THROUGH what he is doing and tonight, got a laugh about it.

    for five years i have fallen hook line and sinker and this time – woo hoo!

    looking back, i’ve actually had an excellent winter without him. i haven’t cried every day. i haven’t been tortured. the anxiety of always trying to measure up is GONE!

    now i’m looking forward to spring with my new friends here. i think i’ll make an easter egg tree with my son this weekend.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 28 February 2008 @ 11:33pm

68. alohatraveler says:

    Lilygirl,

    How great is that?! Maybe I will make Easter Eggs this year too. I haven’t done that in years.

    I have noticed that I as I break through to the other side… the TRUTH, things are sunnier, life is richer, and I appreciate things so much more. I was appreciative before but I am realizing that it is okay to be alone rather than be with that Man. I mean I let him ruin my biggest dream! DANG!!

    Anyway, I am glad you had a laugh at your Bad Man’s expense. It’s nice recognizing the manipulation and not falling for it. CONGRATS! Something to celebrate for sure!

    Aloha……… E.R.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 29 February 2008 @ 1:15am

69. findingmyselfagain says:

    What’s an easter egg tree? maybe I will want to make one too

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 29 February 2008 @ 9:01pm

70. alohatraveler says:

    I think an Easter Egg tree is one of those twig things painted white and then you decorate eggs and hang then from strings or ribbons from the tree.. empty eggs by the way.

    http://www.williams-sonoma.com.....key=decacc

    See Easter Egg Tree. )

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 1 March 2008 @ 1:16am

71. findingmyselfagain says:

    very pretty – the Easter Egg tree. It says it symbolizes the new life of Spring… maybe it can symbolize new life ahead for all of us.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 1 March 2008 @ 1:20am

72. LilOrphan says:

    Aloha

    I somehow missed your previous response! My job isn’t very “caring” but many others have been in the past. Life overall, is. You hit on something with the composite; I think most of us, as N/S/P magnets are very caring, accepting (I’d say naive, but we’re not that, exactly…we just prefer to see the good in people) and tend to have very flexible – if any – boundaries with everyone.

    Which isn’t so bad except when people take advantage of those qualities. In fact, I still like those aspects of me, as long as they are respected and also…retractable.

    Still think the Bad Men want the things in us they see but will never authentically own: empathy, compassion, love, ethics, morals and a genuine life with very few masks.

    Oprah? Oh my…only on car give-away day!

    Your posts make me smile because they’re so direct and pull no punches about anything. No masks. Maybe it does make us vulnerable to N’s…but it also cuts through so much of the clutter in life caused by superficiality and artifice. Who has time for that stuff when we could be on Oprah or reading?!?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 3 March 2008 @ 8:34pm

73. alohatraveler says:

    Well… I have been known to speak my mind in a fairly plain and direct way. People love me for it, or, they don’t. I am working on this. )

    Thank you so much for your note. I love being a part of this community. I think of everyone as “My Ladies at LoveFraud” (and a few guys too) HI, GUYS! I am sorry for saying “Bad Man” too much. I hope it doesn’t offend our men folk. )

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 1:16am

74. alohatraveler says:

    Oh.. that was to LilOrphan.

    Aloha!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 1:17am

75. LilOrphan says:

    Aloha — Speaking your mind isn’t something to work on – it’s great! It’s how I always was, before, in between and after the BM. Somehow, with him it wasn’t like that.

    Question for you and anyone else who may have experienced this: do you still wonder about all the secrets your BM was harboring? When he got back together with me he told me that he’d been sleeping with a married woman – called her family “the white trash” of this suburb where I live (he lives in a bigger, more metro community). I was shocked. Seemed he’d forgotten how he mirrored my values for all those years before, going on and on about how he’d NEVER sleep with someone married (because I wouldn’t).

    THEN – I started seeing weird things showing up at Craigslist for our larger city – pictures I was 99 percent sure were him with someone else and posts about this lost love…not even weeks into seeing me again. The first one I wasn’t sure, but the second group I was. Everything down to the writing style and word usage. Of course, he denied and kept saying how he loved me and wanted to marry me.

    I think she knew about the whole thing, the OW (the S’paths love to have multiple women) because she would call him and i was the weirdest calls – he would only say hello, she’d say God knows what, he’d mumble and then close the phone – no goodbye or whatever. Like she dictated to him his every move.

    To this day, I find myself intrigued by that mystery and sickened by the fact he either didn’t care that I knew about his little games or thought he was so clever and nobody could possibly know.

    It boggles the mind. All along I could FEEL he was having this secret, other life. I ran background checks, ran court records, marriage records, trying to see if he’d married while we were apart or changed addresses.

    For all I know, he’s got multiple spellings of his name or aliases. There’s nothing I’d put past this man…and what really amazes me is the difference between who I thought he was and who he turned out to be.

    Wish I didn’t care, but part of it is just the intrigue and the revulsion.

    Wondered if any of you guys ever caught up with their secret lives, more than I did.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 1:50am

76. Beverly says:

    am going to speak my mind today. I have been up all night penning a letter which I will send to someone very close to him. Someone he used to finish off his dirty work (abuse by proxy) by warning me off – someone who told me to forget about him and take no further action. It may not be the right thing to do, but if I am going to get any sense of closure over this I feel I have a right to have a voice, to put my side of things into the ether, even if no one is listening – Ive expressed it and after all I have been through, its the very least I deserve. The letter is not directly written about him personally but rather in the sense of tying together his behaviour with that of someone who has NPD.

    I deserve someone close to him to really witness the seriousness of it all and to stop enabling him through a sense of loyalty. Is it worth it, am I just stirring things up – am I breaching the no contact rule – possibly. I look at the people here as my ‘invisible friends’ and would value comments please.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 3:14am

77. LilOrphan says:

    Beverly

    I won’t tell you what to do, but I will say that N/P/S have rages and can go utterly psycho when confronted. If you think this man is at all the least bit dangerous it would not be in your best interests to send that letter.

    Even if he is NOT dangerous, a letter like that will FEED him. It’s as good as the very best supply of attention. Free is 100 percent accurate in what she says.

    You know what most hurts the N/P/S’path? Ignoring them. No further contact. Refusing to get involved.

    This removes their power. Naming them helps you to regain your footing. Naming them – to them – has no effect like that. Either they know already what they are and don’t care, or they are too blind to ever know. The only effect a letter will have is to show him how SUPER IMPORTANT he is to you. You’ll be validating his every belief about his own greatness and your alleged weakness.

    Good luck. If you do send it, be very very careful.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 7:35am

78. Beverly says:

    Thank you Free and LilOrphan. I have just returned home and Ihave not sent the letter. I can be quite impulsive and I ran it past a friend of mine, who said it was a well written letter, but she was afraid that the N’s sister (who I was going to send it to) might also have an abusive streak and although in the letter I asked for her not to tip him off, she might be tempted to. Also I am trying to move away, so I do not want to jeopardise the transaction with broken windows or the like. I will put a transcript of this letter on but it felt good writing it out. thank you all – you mirrored the right action in your reply. I think at times, I am still stewing over the injustic of it all and as a person I hate injustice.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 10:34am

79. Beverly says:

    This is the letter I was going to write to his sister. Its a long one! He sends his sister round to finish his dirty work, by her saying if I contact him ever I will be done for harrassment! I only sent him one letter when we split as he ran into hiding, not wanting to face my questions.

    Dear X, I understand your loyalty to your brother, but whether you realise it or not, he has NPD which fits perfectly with his behaviour. NPD is part of a cluster o personality disorders and since researching this and listening to the testimonies o other targets, who report the same behaviours and even the same phrases, I am in no doubt that I was one o his targets. Targets are often caring, intelligent women and sometimes single parents. When the man doesnt want to become emotionally involved or wants the added thrill, he will often hook up with married women with whom he can dispense with fairly quickly without fear of being exposed. It is all about narcissistic supply.

    I realise that I fitted perfectly as a target and I keep asking myself why I allowed him to return to me after the 10 of so breaks we had in a year – I never once asked him to come back. If you read about NPD, there are certain personality traits and behaviours that they carry out to seduce, confuse, punish, demean and subjugate their targets. At times I thought I was going crazy, imagining things, being jealous, making something out of nothing. I realised that his behaviour was designed to throw me of balance, create confusion and chaos to skew my sense of reality, to the point that I wasnt sure what was real and what wasnt. When a target gets to this stage, they are vulnerable to being under the N’s spell and are no longer a person with their own self control and perceptions. At one point I am sure he took great delight in setting up and introducing me to one of his women (unbeknown to me).

    When I finished with him, it was shocking to think he had betrayed me, but to realise that I had also been conned was shocking. This explains why he was a master at pretending to be in a caring relationship whilst keeping his exits and options open in secret. As he was gathering Nsupply at work, gathering phone numbers from married employees which he had at different levels of play. When I became too much, for the return, he discarded me like rubbish. I am sorry to say that they are in it to take and use, maybe even using more than one person for -attention, money, sex, power.

    I was very naieve when I first met him and gave too much of myself, not realising that his agenda was not what he was pretending. He hid his delusions from me but gave me some warning signals at the start, which I couldnt make sense of. Mistakenly, I loved him, felt sorry for his bleak life and cared for him, even offering my absolute support for him to use me to improve himself. I think he probably did care about me in his narcissistic way but I have had to question myself as to why I allowed it to go on and on. This does not excuse the fact that he pretended to care about me, but in the background he subjected me to cruel manipulation and abuse and that is serious. This is not something that can be swept under the carpet and has long lasting repercussions.

    People with NPD act in stealth, they watch people, assess their vulnerabilities and what they can get, they are very cunning and plot their actions. Whilst they are emotionally under developed, they give the appearance of being very charming, in control – they are masters of spin and charm. They are skilled liars, often believing their own lies and can spin stories so convincingly, even fooling those closest to them. When things get difficult, they discard their targets, bad mouthing them to others in order to be free of remorse of responsibility. They usually skip off with the next target, which they usually already had lined up. No remorse and no regret and no closure for the target. In short, they are emotional abusers and they often, they are careful to leave no evidence or bruises – as he did, so outsiders are not privy to what is happening. They manipulate the minds of targets and I now understand much of what he did and said – although I didnt understand then.

    I was left feeling hurt and angry by the way he punished me over and over – I did nothing wrong, but he enjoyed seeing me plead with him. You will never know the details of what he did, but I can assure you he knew exactly what he was doing and had probably done variations of this on others before me. They are predators (a word he used) and when he told me he was a ‘watcher’ I now understand that. He also told me he had ‘demons in a box’ I took this to mean childhood abuse – he meant something else.

    He played many tactics on me, distancing, detachment, hints and insinuations all to throw me off balance, create confusion and focus on him. I have since realised that he gave me the evidence of his betrayal on two phones, because he had no further use for me. I also believe he plotted to punish me months after I pushed him over. ‘An eye for an eye’ he once text me! It is difficult to know with him, what is bluff, what is fact and what he is actually thinking. I realised that he edits the answers to my questions and evaded many others to make himself look ‘clean’.

    He may have thought that I didnt notice at the time, but I was well aware of his bizarre and nasty bits of behaviour designed to humiliate and insult me directly. I am relieved that I am no longer the butt of his sadistic pleasure (he was into S&M – permission to abuse physically). The echo of what he has done, not only to me, but to others will be hanging in his karma.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 11:20am

80. righteous woman says:

    For the letter above (Beverly) – GREAT letter – Great analysis…Don’t send it!! It’s meaning will be twisted and create MORE emotional baggage as you then feel you need to defend the letter…Lil Orphan is 100% correct. Type to your hearts content, get it all out…But to send it would be contact-by-proxy. Don’t do it.

    Every once in a while, I would like to believe I might be able to get through to the S…So I will reply to something he sent me, starts out peaceful but eventually he begins his con, and I reply with a “Not interested..not buying…not stupid..see right through you…” He begins his rants that I am ‘fat, ugly, no man would ever want me, I am obsessed with HIM, I have lived my life for him, I live my life through him, I don’t know what I am missing as he is a changed man, and I could have his perfection if I just stopped being cruel to him….’ literally, it starts out insulting and ends up pleading for me to recognize how great he is and how great it would be if I would let down my guard….

    Anyway, my point is, whether you talk to him, or convey information to a family member it is contact by proxy and will end with the same sort of tirade. Or completely bash you and get turned around on you. I don’t want to think of that happening to anyone.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 12:55pm

81. LilOrphan says:

    righteous and beverly

    I agree with you, rw, of course. Beverly, your letter had some sort of impact on me. A trigger, I think they call it. Either that, or I’m just having a really bad day in the midst of what was, up until this morning, the best couple of weeks of my life. Maybe it’s because this annual project I’m working on right now that I love started when he was with me still and I felt at the time that everything I was doing in life was part for him and having a future together, to make him proud of me….and now I am just doing it alone. Who knows.

    I miss my S’path. Is that abnormal? Unhealthy? Probably. But I admit that I still care very much for him, when I allow myself to think about it, which is next to never.

    After everything he’s done, everything bad he ever said…the lies, the other women, the garbage, intellectually I know better but right now, my heart hurts.

    Am glad you’re not sending the letter. There’s a roller-coaster of emotions involved with getting over and past and through these experiences, and letters like that do help sort things out for ourselves, but guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s all futile.

    Mine said he wanted to marry me. Logically I know that would never have happened because he kept changing goal posts. But emotionally, there are times I can’t help but fantasize about the good parts of spending my life with him…until I realize the promise of that was likely nothing more than a dangled carrot or hook.

    Take care. Be strong.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 2:05pm

82. righteous woman says:

    lil orphan -

    I am willing to bet the “excitement” or effect of that relationship is releasing chemicals in our heads too. Because sometimes I want the interaction too…sometimes, even with my knowledge and ambivilance, when I am bored, it is, for the lack of a better word, entertaining for me….as he IS a joke.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 March 2008 @ 2:54pm

83. LilOrphan says:

    Free, great song! Can’t figure out what stage I’m in with this – it bounces all over the place, sometimes. 99% of the time I’m feeling mostly past all of it (knew he was messed up years ago and he was out of my life for so long before returning that I’d had time to prepare a support network in case he returned — which helped a great deal to keep me grounded).

    Yesterday was that other one percent. But waking this morning the first thought was, “ugh! NO WAY!!”

    He was a liar. He withheld even the most basic of courtesy, time, thought, care, affection, sex, kindness. Instead, he substituted contrariness, lies, comments about OW, broken promises, substance abuse, crazy behavior, rages, ambient and stealth abuse, bragging about how he knew everything better than everyone else and how he did things better than anyone else, mean-spirited comments about his friends, associates, former girlfriends’ family, his own sisters and deceased mother, even his so-called longest friend — who he accused of only seeing the world the way the guy wanted (projection, much?)

    Wow. Only a person who hated themselves deeply could survive with that kind of life partner.

    It’s not him I miss. Like righteous woman said, it must be about releasing chemicals. Because it certainly isn’t about the reality of what kind of poor excuse for a human being he really IS.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 March 2008 @ 7:50am

84. jules says:

    hey free; i love that song the words i think im going to buy it. to you all i feel crasy too some times a nd want to go round his place and scream and yell and see his new girl there with him. but i just think i would look like a fool and he will think thank god i left her. so i dont do it but i dream about doing it all the time. and i think if i did the new victim might think wow what did he do to her…….. . but i wont go that low i just want to leave it now i really do. he is so sick he even told me her name and where she works how stupid he was just bating me to go look for her. but i didnt. it takes all my strength sometimes not to react. but i think thats what they want and im not doing what he wants anymore. i actually am bored with it, it doesnt achieve anything and i always end up feeling hurt.id rather find some real joy with people who treat me right. x

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 March 2008 @ 7:55am

85. alohatraveler says:

    LilOrphan,

    You wanted to know if I still wonder about any of the Bad Man’s secrets.

    Well, a lot has been revealed to me about him when I heard he was posting on CL. Through CL, I also found several women… some I contacted in response to their warning ads and some responded to mine. I have gotten to know two of them pretty well. (ie. lots of email and a few phone conversations.)

    I don’t know everything. The main person Iwould like to talk to is his ex-wife. I do have contact information for her but I don’t not want to distrub her peace. If I knew for sure that telling her story would help her to feel validated… I would call in a flash. I do know this. She and her children must have been through HELL.

    In the early days, I took his stories about his marriage at face value but over time, I started to say, “I don’t need to hear her story. I know it in my bones.” So, for now, I go with that.. and I wish her all the peace in the world. She saved herself and 5 children from a nightmare. She probably just needs rest now and to grow some flowers… I happen to know she was a recipient of Habitat for Humanity. I am so happy for her… a happy stranger that gives her peace without her knowing it.

    I do know one thing though that makes me want to contact her sometimes. According to the Bad Man, she tried to prove in court that he was crazy and wasn’t able to. He represented himself, as every good Narcissist would. I would like to give her the answer.. yes, he is crazy and you are not.

    Someday… someday.

    Aloha and Blessings to KW and her 5 children.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 12:16am

86. LilOrphan says:

    Thanks for explaining. Totally understand the ex-wife contact fascination. Totally. But agree with you, dredging him back up to her might not be construed as an act of kindness by either of you.

    Think my problem with the Unsolved Mystery is that it is just that…unsolved. Probably tawdry, beneath me, cheap movie of the week stuff, anyway. But I do so love a good Scooby Doo episode.

    Really no longer care about whatever the game was. Anyone who can do that to you, me or anyone else will do it over and over and over again to the next woman. It matters little how the next victim looks, thinks, acts or reacts to someone who has no morals and ethics and is an abuser.

    But I just bet the BM’s ex has some hair-raising stories.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 12:44am

87. hummingbird1418 says:

    These stories are so sad and yet I am learning that I have been involved with a Sociopath.
    I have been seeing this man that I work with for four years now. He is very articulate, charming, flattering and caring.
    He has borrowed money for an attorney because a former live-in girlfriend wanted child support for her son (not his but he was raising the boy). I lent him money for his mother’s scooter, his mother lost her prescription money, his niece’s car had a broken water pump. He is currently driving a car that I own and make the payments on.
    Recently, I found pictures of him and his godson’s mother on vacation – cruise and S.C.
    He apparently was including her in his family events and vacations while he was telling me that it was too soon after my divorce to meet his family. They would want to meet my children (all adults) and my children weren’t ready for that yet.
    To make matters worse, I bought him suits and a tux for the cruise that he took with another woman. I also gave him money for his trip to S.C. last summer.
    I am planning to confront him with this once he has recovered from his recent hospitalization for pneumonia. I can’t tell you how much time I have spent sitting in doctor’s offices and hospitals with this man.
    I am embarrassed that I was so gullible for all this time.
    I don’t understand how someone who calls themself a Christian and supposedly practices the golden rule – do unto others as you would have them do unto you – could live a life completely contrary to their beliefs.
    My main concern once this is over is that I will still have to work in the cubicle across from this man for a long time. I have 16 years invested in my government job and don’t plan to change careers at this stage of my life. I also work a part-time job mainly to make the car payments and the credit card payments (his indulgences).
    I’d appreciate any comments.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 12:11pm

88. neverneverland says:

    LilOrphan wrote:

    “I miss my S’path. Is that abnormal? Unhealthy? Probably. But I admit that I still care very much for him, when I allow myself to think about it, which is next to never.”

    I miss mine, too. I really do. There were times in our relationship that were so heady and fascinating, I put myself in a state of suspended disbelief. I knew that he had serious issues. I knew that he was unethical — he’d done way too many things to prove that he didn’t care about other people. But when we were together, one on one, it was magic. The sex, the dinners out, “our places” … sitting in the car in the park, talking until three a.m., then making out. The physical aspect of our relationship never diminished; in fact, it only heated up more and more. I honestly was gobsmacked when, for no reason at all, he tossed me out of his life. Then the truth started to come out, and everything that i suspected to be true about him — namely that he was using me for $$ — was clarified with certainty.

    hummingbird –

    What seems to be par for the course for these men is that they have no shame about using one woman while courting another. I could tell you horror stories that are similar to yours. I loaned my ex a very expensive laptop computer … that he used primarily to contact women on Myspace and hook up with them. How inappropriate is that? Then, after I asked for it back after we broke up, he waffled and procrastinated, because he didn’t have any other way to get on the Internet. Too effing bad. If you want to contact your women, use the phone that YOU paid for, not my computer. He honestly did not see why I would be upset by this. He really did not. At. All.

    Again. I am gobsmacked …

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 12:21pm

89. holywatersalt says:

    Hummingbird-

    You have scarificed enough . As I recallyou left your husband for this psycho.

    Enough is enough. Cut him off. Take the car and make him responsible for whatever you legally can.

    Obvioulsy there’s alot going on in your life- transfer out of that job– can you? If you can in any possible, way do it.

    I repeat do not give him any more consideration- this guy is a theif and a soul murderer. The SOB lied, lied and lied and used your money to finance the fabrications.

    Cutting him off is the first step- and I do not care if he’s on his freaking deathbed in pain- too bad.

    You have a lot of work to do- and not just at your part time job to pay for his mistresses. You can’t buy love.

    DROP HIM COLD. Take back your life honey. Get a good conselor and start reading on psychos.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 1:18pm

90. rblue says:

    hey lil orphan whats CL???

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 1:46pm

91. LilOrphan says:

    rblue:

    I think you mean aloha. She mentioned that in her post.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 2:05pm

92. hummingbird1418 says:

    Thanks for all the comments. I know that I have to get out now while I still can salvage my credit issues.
    I do not understand how I could have been with this man and not suspected that he had someone else in his life. How can somenone lead two separate lives with two separate women.
    I know that she was the one who was included in all his family affairs.
    I heard from people that I work with that he couldn’t be trusted, but I didn’t believe any of it once I got to know him one-on one. We went on vacations every summer (my treat).
    Do you think that this other woman has any idea that he was involved with someone else?
    These men are charming, articulate, intelligent, seemingly moral and religious. They are always needing money for some crisis or other.
    He also flirts a lot. I noticed recently he has been getting our new office assistant to help him with special projects. She is in therapy for cancer and I hope that he isn’t planning to use her vulneratbility at this time to play his head games.
    I am a person that is very nurturing and caring. I guess that made me vulnerable to this type of personality. I truly have felt bad about his financial difficulties and his health issues.
    Is there a personality flaw that I have that made me easy prey for this man?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 3:38pm

93. holywatersalt says:

    Hummingbird-
    Scroll through this book -there’s a section on who psychos target. It is eye-opening to say the least.

    http://books.google.com/books?.....#PPA151,M1

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 4:22pm

94. LilOrphan says:

    holywater:

    Yikes! I am that woman, in many ways: believe in the good in everyone, totally open to others and new experiences, raised my kids not to be materialistic and to have both empathy and acceptance for diversity in people and lifestyles. Neither of my kids are mall fans, nor are they fans of popular kid culture. Both are individualistic thinkers who don’t make choices based on other people’s interests or likes. I’m so proud of their personalities and natures for these reasons!

    But this book said I just raised two targets of S’s.

    And agree with the author: the world needs more of us, not less. But how can we keep being that type of woman without drawing S’paths to us?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 5:35pm

95. holywatersalt says:

    Yeah- and what’s funny– we cross all sorts of demographics and characteristics- you could be liberal, conservative, atheist, religious, BUT there’s a common denominator…

    an openness to listen to them, emapthy, trusting and forgiving nature…

    in other words: a good person

    I felt disgusted reading the stories as they were true and I saw, why I was targeted. Last year I told someone about my encounter that it was like being the deaf girl in the movie ” In the company of men” …. one big mind-f–k.

    Predators do play these games on purpose, I read somewhere …”it would be decent if they just had the courtesy of going insane.” Meaning the torture would make sense.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 8:10pm

96. findingmyselfagain says:

    CL is Craigslist.com you can post personals on there rblue

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 25 March 2008 @ 9:43pm

97. loux2 says:

    Aloha – you write so well! Thank you for posting your essay… it really spoke to me and I could relate SO well to it. Our situations are similar. I was 36 when my ex and I re-connected (we knew each other years ago in college) – he had horror stories about how much hell his ex wives put him through (yes wiveS), and b/c of our past acquaintance I gave him trust he didn’t even have to earn and believed all of his BS sob stories. I’d never given that much trust/validation to other people’s ’stories’ before – I am usually much more objective and diplomatic. But at 36, I had never been married, no children; I had estabished myself in a good career, and was beyond ready for a long term, significant love relationship and family. I thought I had that with him. He truly seemed like a dream come true… He was so convincing. We were planning to marry, bought a house… then suddenly out of no where he D&D’d me – 6 months later he married one of his co-workers, who’s 13 years younger and makes a boat load of money. I was devastated – no other way to describe it. Thankfully though, I was the lucky one in the whole situation… he showed me who and what he really is BEFORE I married him. I cannot thank God enough for that.

    Thanks again for your essay,

    loux

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 1:29am

98. hummingbird1418 says:

    holy water salt: I looked at the link and found it quite informative. Apparently being open and caring and a nurturing woman makes you vulnerable to the sociopaths in our society.
    Does anyone think that the personals on Craig’s List could be dangerous? What about internet dating sites?
    There should be a place to group all these sociopaths to warn the next person before they fall under their spell.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 1:13pm

99. LilOrphan says:

    hummingbird1418:

    I met a fairly nice guy from Craigslist for a work party I had to attend with a guest. He felt he had to “pay for the last guy’s actions” and though I said it wasn’t the case, I think it kind of is because I haven’t been good with trust or opening up.

    I’m on a few dating sites. They are P playgrounds, but I do believe there are also some good, normal guys looking for real relationships on those things. I seldom use mine. Once in awhile I get responses, email back and forth a bit, but nothing ever really comes from it. I’m ready…and I’m not ready. If that makes sense.

    I keep my profile out there because of hope. Hopefully not malignant optimism. Who knows, really. Probably the same reason I sometimes still play the lottery, even knowing the odds. Would love to have a real partner…someone truly present, without dragging a sea of past women behind him, who wants a real relationship. You can’t know if you don’t try.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 2:04pm

100. OxDrover says:

     hummingbird,

     I think ALL of the dating sites are dangerous.

     Reasons:
     1) Long distance romances tend to be intense, but don’t let you really get to know a person in “normal” situations

     2) They can “be” anyone over the internet–there was one published case where a “man” turned out to be a WOMAN and the lover committed suicide.

     3) You are not able to really know others who know them, have a good history on them, etc. I know that even in real life that isn’t always possible, but it gets the Ps a better chance to succeed.

     4) Ps find this a “happy hunting ground” because of all of the above.

     Back when I was first widowed, had the relationship with the P (not off internet) I got on a couple of dating sites. Talked to several guys on phone that I could literally HEAR the red flags flapping in the TORNADO–not just a “breeze” flapping them.

     Met for coffee a couple of times with several guys but that was about it. Actually became friends with one guy who wasn’t my “cup of tea” but we had a lot in common, hung out with him for a while, introduced him to a friend of mine. She married some one else. I got to know him pretty well in a NON romantic way and I think he is a genuinely nice guy, just not someone I am attracted to as a mate.

     I am pretty well resigned to not having another LTR again, there is just so much statistically against me, age, rural location, few good men out there vs. the number of women available. Men many times choose women younger than they are, and I sure don’t want someone 15 yrs older than me (that would put him 75) or in poor health, poverty stricken, still raising kids, or with a bunch of kids he is still paying child support on at this age, one guy age 60 had 4 yr old twins. LOL

     Plus, you have to factor in the common interests, common moral code, common life style, etc etc. and that leaves me a better chance of hitting the lotto! LOL

     I have made up my mind I will keep looking, but if I never find that, I am okay with that too. I miss the companionship and a lot of things, but won’t settle for less and the pickings are not good for lots of reasons. But I DO KNOW that I am not going to “settle” just to have a warm body..if I choose to be miserable I can be miserable by myself, I don’t need anyone to MAKE ME THAT WAY. LOL ROTFL

     Younger women than I am have amuch greater chance of meeting someone good. All the “romances” I have heard about from people I know who met on the internet were not good…my son C met his P x-wife on the internet, a male friend of miine married a scam artist he met on the internet, still tring to get out from under the credit problems she caused him though the marriage was annuled in only a few days. He and I discussed that yesterday—he was formerly married to two Ps, has children by the last one (age 12 and 18) and has custody of both of them and because he is such a nice guy, absolutely NO guile in his heart, he is a perfect patsy for the Ps.

     The problem for me is that Ps can keep up a front for quite some time and the “honey moon” phase can last a long time long distance…and though there ARE I am sure some nice people out there on the sites, I think it is like picking through a sack of rattlesnakes looking for a garter snake—your are more likely to get bitten by the poison ones before you find the nice one to take home for a pet. LOL

     I’m just not willing to take a chance on not getting bitten.

     While I have no doubt that I could make a really nice guy a wonderful partner, I’m no longer “needy”—one of the things that sucked me into the X-BF that was a P was that there were so many things about our interests, live style, etc. that meshed. We had some common friends, etc and he had only one previous marriage–I didn’t realize he had “1000″ past affairs and 6 or 8 CURRENT ACTIVE affairs going at one time! LOL

     Plus, it was soon enough after my husband’s death that I was incredibly needly and lonely, depressed and feeling low that “no one would ever want me again” and PRESTO–my “prince” came to call. I was swept off my feet, even my two good sons loved this guy, and he romanced my mother as well, by mowing her yard and being soooo polite to her…we call that “Putting salt out for the cow to catch the calf” but even she fell for his “kindness” and so on. WHAT A FAKE. LOL

     Nah, I’m not interested in any internet crap shoot and even if someone comes calling in real life, I will be very cautious.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 4:20pm

101. OxDrover says:

     PS: I went back to one of the old internet dating sites I was on and here 2 yrs later the SAME guys are still on there. I think every one of those guys e mailed me once or more times. Kind of makes me thing that they are not there just for finding a partner.

     One guy that e mailed me, worked at a school, where I do volunteer work once or twice a year. I e mailed a couple of the teachers there that I knew and got the “skinny” on him before I even met him for coffee. Didn’t want to touch that one with a 10-ft. pole! He is still there on the dating site. LOL

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 4:24pm

102. peggywhoever says:

     What fascinated me about the article holywatersalt referenced is the law of reciprocity. I have always believed in what I refer to the “reciprocity principle” hence there has to be some form of give-and-take in all relationships, and when this is out of balance, the relationship changes or ceases. It doesn’t always have to be 50-50, but there must be some back and forth exchange (in gifts, phone calls, whatever).

     The interesting thing in the article is that the P/S GIVES YOU A GIFT, and you feel like you have to reciprocate. This is how they begin to seduce their victims.

     My S was very good at this…in the beginning he gave very expensive gifts (and less so over time until the gift-giving ceased entirely). But in the beginning it was a big SPLASH of jewelry and trips to the kids and me, to demonstrate how important, and wealthy he was (all fraud, or course). We thought he was extremely kind, and generous, and he loved us. BUT his entire AGENDA was to get me to invest with him. He tried for 3 years in 5 different schemes, and when it became evident I would never sign on the dotted line with him, he was gone, and the next woman (after the affair which of course he never had wink wink) has already done it. He bought her a 6 or 7 carat total weight ring (per her brother, I have not personally seen it, nor will I). So, the victim turned around and bought him a million dollar+ house (no kidding). Her money (equity) down, his name jointly on the title within just a few months. Amazing. He will then take out home equity loans against the property without her knowledge or consent; he’s done it before, it’s his MO. It sounds like a fantasy, but truth is stranger than fiction (wouldn’t you agree, OxDrover?)

     Sociopath Reciprocity principle: S gives to you, you give to S (tenfold…they are greedy and want more than they give). S takes and takes until they drain you financially, emotionally, and spiritually. The end.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 6:33pm

103. OxDrover says:

     Absolutely, truth is stranger than fiction, Peggy, —which is one reason I will never publish the book about my P-bio father, as I would be labeled a total liar because NO ONE could “really” be like that. LOL

     He really didn’t even have to lie, the truth about his life was amazing and interesting (minus the abuse) and few people in the world have led as exciting and as adventurous lives as he did. He really was an amazing man, and to accomplish what he did with almost no formal education was remarkable.

     My P-XBF was big in to the GIFTS too, but it was to show that he could lavish his women with goodies that they otherwise couldn’t afford–made him a BIG SPENDER in his own eyes.

     When he tried to give me expensive gifts right off the bat, I DECLINED them which I think threw him for a loop and kind of disappointed him. I am not accustomed to taking expensive gifts from men I am not married to or about to marry, it just isn’t in my “code of conduct” and I am fiercely independent financially. While we were dating (early on) my washer died and I mentioned that I needed to get a new one the next day and he came on (puff out chest here) “I’ll buy you one, what do you want?” I thanked him but declined. A few weeks later, I had the same thing happen with the dishwasher, and the same scene with him—

     Later into the “serious” stage of the relationship we were at a living history event where there was some very nice and expensive antique Native American Jewelry for sale and it was close to my birthday—I was admiring some of it, one piece in particular, so he bought it, FOR HIMSELF! LOL

     After Christmas, when we had been broken up he came back to my place to pick up some living history items that were his that were still stored here from a joint trip we had made to an event, and brought me a tacky “Christmas gift” which I declined. When he left he was crying (real tears I think but not for me, for him of course…) and telling me how mean I was to him and why couldn’t’ we just be “friends”—

     From this distance in time and space I can look at him as a pathetic piece of human garbage and I am SO grateful to God that I saw through him before I let him marry me as his next “respectable wife” to cheat on. He was really “big” on having a wife “respected in the community” and though I live in a rural area everyone knows me from when I had a rural health clinic here and because my family has lived here since 1833—he was really “impressed” when we would go places and people would stop me to speak etc.

     His first wife was on the local board of directors of the city’s bank, a school principal, etc. He wanted educated women, yet, he was self conscious about not having a formal education and always on the look out for a woman to be “talking down to” him. Real chip on his shoulder about that, but actually he was very bright and quite well self educated. Go figure!~ Interestingly enough, almost all of his long term girlfriends were nurses. The last one I saw him with was also a nurse.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 7:14pm

104. hummingbird1418 says:

     I have learned a lot from the messages on this website. I did put a profile on eharmony but never registered. I am very wary of meeting a complete stranger for coffee or anything.
     The sad thing is that I have been asked out for dinner, movies, etc. by some seemingly nice guys over the past 4 years that I have been with my P. Of course, I turned them down because I thought that I was in a committed relationship. Meanwhile, my P was vacationing with another woman. I don’t know if he was involved with other woman during this time as well.
     In the beginning he was more affectionate. We haven’t kissed and cuddled much over the past year. We have been intimate but there hasn’t been much affection before or after. Has this been the case with anyone else?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 7:39pm

105. hummingbird1418 says:

     I forgot to add that on several occasions he has been angry with me for something that I did that he didn’t
     agree with and said that maybe we should spend some time apart.
     I usually ended up crying or getting upset. He would then say that we can try again.
     Now I feel that this was just a form of manipulation to somehow show how much control he had over my life.
     Let me know what you think.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 7:43pm

106. OxDrover says:

     Hummingbird, if you are still with this guy, RUN don’t walk AWAY from him.

     he’s working up to dump you any way (“Maybe we should send time apart”)

     Sit down and make a list of the +s and the -s in the relationship–starting with if it is so wonderfull why are you on this site? Second “meanwhile my P was vacationing with another woman”

     Add them up and see what the conclusion is. Do you deserve better than this? If you don’t think so, go to your local Union Rescue mission and pick yourself out a homeless wino, it would be a better choice than this guy in MHO.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 8:22pm

107. peggywhoever says:

     OxDrover:

     Thanks for “filling in the blanks”. Unless one spends 24/7 reading here, it’s hard to keep up!

     I also declined gifts initially from the S. But I had an accident (fell off a horse) early in our relationship and he took care of me. So the relationship sped up (and of course became exclusive immediately) because of my dependance on him (I couldn’t walk for a period of time). And he started staying with us immediately to help me; thus he was initially, and literally, a “knight in shining armor”. He was so lavish initially with his spending that my son and his best friend used to argue if he was worth $5 million or $10 million. Of course, he isn’t really worth a wooden nickel, any possessions he has were received through fraud. We thought he was perfect for the first 6 months or a year, he wore his S mask of deception very well, the poor victim that he was (LOL). NOBODY from his past liked him, it was always poor pitiful him. Later, of course, I found the reasons why…

     hummngbird:

     Oxdrover is right. Once the abuse begins, it intensifies. You CANNOT FIX THIS MAN. There is no magic potion, prescription or shot to give him, it is a useless cause. The person you love does not exist, they are fake. Save yourself some heartache and get away…they become more wicked and cruel as time goes on and their mask falls off, piece by piece. It is a terrible thing to witness, and an even greater thing to personally experience.

     My S also became less affectionate over time…until our physical relationship was nothing really but (red hot) sex. But he was never otherwise affectionate to me, nor did he compliment me. If someone loves you, they are kind, respecting, loving, sharing and affectionate. Someone genuine tells you the truth and has integrity. Someone who loves you does NOT vacation with another woman.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 10:27pm

108. LilOrphan says:

     “Oxdrover is right. Once the abuse begins, it intensifies. You CANNOT FIX THIS MAN.”

     Thank you, peggy-pseu. Was just reading about boundaries, control, power, toxic relationships and seeing my own part in what happened, how I reacted, my own dependency issues. Was feeling sort of like “what came first, his abuse or my powerlessness…” because I evaded like crazy once he started doing the really out-there stuff.

     Then came here and saw what you wrote, remembered back to when I was too busy one morning to answer the phone and that night he called and mocked my responses, yelled at me, made fun of me and made me feel like crap for not answering the phone.

     Prior to that, he was mean to me one night and called me by another woman’s first name.

     If not that first night, then definitely that second night, I should have run so fast, so far.

     Sometimes when you look back on the craziness and your reactions to the craziness, you forget who is to blame. Especially if you are used to being the family scapegoat. But that post made it crystal clear. He was toxic and abusive from the very beginning. I just minimized it and thought I could set boundaries on verbal abuse and that would be it. Sure…until he decided to take a different approach.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 10:44pm

109. peggywhoever says:

     LilOrphan:

     It doesn’t really matter what came first, his abuse or your powerlessness. Abuse is abuse, abuse intensifies, and abuse is wrong. Regardless of your station in life, your education, your background, your status, regardless of any circumstantial factors, you deserve to be treated with respect. ALWAYS. Abuse is not respect. Lies are not respect.

     We all got sucked into the craziness because of the Mr. Nice Guy we thought he was, the mask he wore, all of the chemical stuff, and love talk, and the dream. (Oh, not to forget the great sex). They are predators who sought us out to abuse us. The cool thing is, I don’t think anyone on this site will be fooled again. Furthermore, have you made new friends and learned new things (including, but not exclusive to sociopathy)? It’s like we were in a dark cloud (I actually used to feel that with mine…his moods were so intense I felt it was cloudy and ready for a thunderstorm INSIDE my house)…then we step out of the FOG and THERE IS SUNSHINE! And the sun shines on us, and through us, and into our soul. And it is a beautiful thing, and we delight in it as never before because, in experiencing darkness, we appreciate the sun. Makes me think of the song, “Let the Sun shine…Let the Sun shine in…”. Oh YEAH.

     No matter what your situaton, the abuse was wrong. HE WAS WRONG. The Bad Man was wrong. And oh yeah, I forgot, He is The Lie.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 11:07pm

110. peggywhoever says:

     LilOrphan:

     It doesn’t really matter what came first, his abuse or your powerlessness. Abuse is abuse, abuse intensifies, and abuse is wrong. Regardless of your station in life, your education, your background, your status, regardless of any circumstantial factors, you deserve to be treated with respect. ALWAYS. Abuse is not respect. Lies are not respect.

     We all got sucked into the craziness because of the Mr. Nice Guy we thought he was, and hoped he was, the mask he wore, all of the chemical stuff, and love talk, and the dream. (Oh, not to forget the great sex). Sociopaths are predators who sought us out to abuse us….pick one or all, emotional, verbal, sexual, physical, torment, lying, twisting and turning the truth, projection, namecalling, there’s an entire gamit of insanity they inflict upon is. We WERE victims. But we are not victims anymore, because we have learned from this experience…and it will never happen again.

     That’s the really cool thing…I truly don’t believe anyone on this site will be fooled again. Like OxDrover says, “walks like a duck…” Furthermore, have you made new friends and learned new things (including, but not exclusive to sociopathy) since the termination of the relationship? It’s like we were in a dark cloud (I actually used to feel that with my S…his moods became so intense I felt it was cloudy and ready for a thunderstorm INSIDE my house)…then we step out of the FOG and THERE IS SUNSHINE! And the sun shines on us, and through us, and into our soul. And it is a beautiful thing, and we delight in it as never before because, in experiencing darkness, we appreciate the light, we glory in it, and absorb it. Makes me think of the song, “Let the Sun shine…Let the Sun shine in…”. Oh YEAH. Almost makes me feel like dancing.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 26 March 2008 @ 11:17pm

111. LilOrphan says:

     Peggy:

     My confidence level in “Won’t get fooled again” vacillates. Extremely. Most of the time, I’m sure. And, well, I’m definitely sure a DIFFERENT S won’t suck me in. But…this guy had quite the hold on me.

     Lies by omission. You know, I spent years telling him that not telling the truth by being silent was lying. He disagreed, openly. It is, though. His hiding the ongoing dialogue he had with his other woman was a lie of omission. Changing the goal posts was a lie…there were no real goal posts for him, in terms of “our future.” There was no future as far as he was concerned. All of this is unethical, a sign of no character.

     But my feelings were real. So I go back and forth, mourning the illusion, accepting the reality, trying to stop my feelings from being too soft. It’s been five months. Am ten times better after five months than I was all the other times he left….but still not convinced that if he were to come back I wouldn’t buy in, even momentarily. That’s frightening.

     I wrote it all as it happened, this time, kept copious journals on every crappy thing he did or said. Even told some people close to me as it happened, because they pledged to “be my memory” when these moments came where I doubted the depth of his badness. When I remembered only the pieces of him that seemed loving and kind, the part of him that maybe doesn’t even exist but at the time felt like where we connected. When I felt sad and confused as to what was real and what was illusion, like now.

     Maybe it’s that the fog has lifted, I’m doing better, and forgetting the bad stuff, because that’s what’s familiar?

     By tomorrow morning, I’ll feel better again, maybe for weeks on end. Or months. Or forever. Sooner or later, all the softness will be gone.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 27 March 2008 @ 1:36am

112. peggywhoever says:

     LilOrphan:

     After 6 months, I miss my best friend, the thoughtful and generous man I thought he was but not the raving, enraged lunatic he became, or always was and hid from me. I have read that NC is not just physical contact, but in our minds…we need do go NC in our mind…have some other thought that replaces the spot on the hard drive in our brain that is the memory of him. Sometimes I wish there was the magic “something” to “fix” him. But there isn’t. One of his sayings was, “it is what it is”. And that is true. We bought into an illusion…it’s like putting a down payment on a dream home in your selected destination, and when you arrive to view the property there is … nothing…because it was only a concept, there was nothing tangible, and nothing real. We bought into a dream that never existed, with a person that never existed, and never will exist.

     Sometimes I relate to the song “If I Could Turn Back Time” by Cher, and wish I could just wind the clock back, and things could be as they were before. But then, when I look back they weren’t that great…we got along most of the time, but I was always on eggshells…in my own home (not his) and waiting for another thunderstorm, knowing it would come, but never knowing when. And then the temper and the threats of leaving, and having a fit, stomping around, screaming and yelling, acting like a juvenile delinquent and leaving the house or sleeping in the guest room or sleeping with all of his clothes on and I wasn’t allowed to even hug him. If he left, he’d scream at me, and hang up when I’d call him. He got upset over NOTHING. I acquiesced to him and kissed his a _ _ most of the time to maintain peace and harmony, only twice in 3 years did I tell him ‘no’. And these escapades became more and more intense over time, as his “real” self was revealed during these episodes. Who needs THAT? So I am glad he’s gone. Our lives will be better, and richer by far than living an illusion…there is no safety, security, happiness or peace with a Sociopath. None. YOU CANNOT TRUST A SOCIOPATH…EVER.

     Sociopaths are playing the game of life, and they play to WIN. That means YOU, and anyone in their radar, loses. You can lose your money, your heart, your emotional stability, your health, and sometimes…even your life. Read the Ann Rule books, they’re strewn with Sociopaths. Read “Dead By Sunset” or “The Stranger Beside Me”. These books are powerful, and characters are terrifying. Stay strong.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 27 March 2008 @ 7:48am

113. LilOrphan says:

     Peggy…

     “It is what it is” was also one of his phrases, and he did not like being touched unless he initiated and it led to sex. He was almost robotic in movement: stiff, unnatural when it came to displays of affection, except when we were snuggly on the couch watching tv. Ouch, that memory really hurts. Am working really hard not to look at emotionally powerful good memories, because they trigger really sad feelings for what I wished it was and the cycle of questioning continues…What was it, really? Why was he like that? and the one that shows my own co-dependency issues, and is ridiculous but comes out anyway: “Could loving him more have fixed things?”

     Nope. I know better. As a child, loving my family more didn’t fix anything. And even if I had enough love for him to fill a football stadium – and long ago, I did have that much – it never seemed to matter. He still left. He just hid from me the really bad aspects, all those other periods of time we were seeing each other. I never got to see how truly messed-up he acted.

     When you say “he got upset over nothing” was it literally NOTHING? I mean, nothing had happened between you two and when you asked him he wouldn’t explain and said nothing was wrong, but still he punished you by being mean or saying crazy stuff? Once, mine was doing that and I decided to pack the stuff I’d brought over and talk to him about calling it a night. He was walking the dogs. I took my stuff to the car and he walked up and threw a hissy fit! Couldn’t even tell him that I wanted to talk about leaving – he just assumed I was and later said stuff like I abandoned him…WTH? He was being mean and dismissive all evening and said nothing was wrong.

     Are there really guys who aren’t like this? I’ve had so little experience dating since getting divorced 12 years ago, and he is my only real long-term yardstick. I worry sometimes (irrationally, probably) that they’re ALL gonna be like that.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 27 March 2008 @ 10:19am

114. hummingbird1418 says:

     We have never lived together. When I brought it up after my divorce last year, he said that it wouldn’t look good for his grand-children to see him living with a woman who he is not married to.
     I have learned a lot from this website. My goal is to confront him on Monday, the 31st when we are both off work. This is not something that can be done over the phone. I need to look him in the eyes when I am speaking.
     Yes, definitely the affection seems robotic now- an obligation.
     I hope that I can salvage some of my dignity because I will eventually have to discuss this with my adult children. I hope that they don’t think less of me because I let a man control and manipulate me.
     I guess I should have realized a long time ago that his asking me to call him when I got home at night was more about control than it was about caring.
     Do any of these men care about anyone?
     He seems to care about his widowed mother and his family in Philadelphia whom I never have met.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 27 March 2008 @ 11:49am

115. peggywhoever says:

     LilOrphan:

     Funny that they use the same phrases. How about “done is done”? Mine was also stiff, and almost unnatural…I thought it was his rough-tuff construction worker attitude. He would hug me back, but I don’t believe he ever initiated a hug.

     He was like that because he doesn’t “feel”. and nothing, NOTHING you could have done would have changed it. You’re lucky you didn’t get to see the extreme ugliness, because it is not like anything I’ve experienced, and I never plan to experience it again. It’s like they are invaded by an (evil) alien. It’s horrible.

     He’d get stressed out of we were leaving for a flight, or if I accidently got the wrong sandwich, or he told me something about his business and I asked what about this and he’d say nunya, he once lost a court case and blamed ME although I had nothing to do with the parties or events whatsoever. Nothing bad EVER happened between us, we never even had an argument because I don’t like to argue. He would be extremely juvenile, stomping around, yelling, leaving the house, hanging up, nasty nasty nasty. He kept saying “I need my own house”…I think it bothered him (he didn’t have control) that he lived in MY house. I never pulled rank on him about this and never said it was “my” house, I’d say “our” house or “our” bedroom. When he did move out, that’s the only time I ever said, “you know what _ _ _ _ _ _ this IS MY HOUSE!!!”

     There ARE guys who aren’t like this. I am dating one right now that I HOPE is decent, but hey, I have trust issues so time will tell. We got stuck with the dysfunctional 1% if the population. Lucky us!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 27 March 2008 @ 2:56pm

116. LilOrphan says:

     Oh, but peggy I did experience the bad side. The cold, distant, non-empathetic, happy-to-watch-you-suffer-and-twist-the-knife side. The raging, screaming, violent over NOTHING side he exhibited towards some kids smoking down in the hallway where he lived, outside the bar they were visiting. His slamming a door closed as I was walking through, hitting my face, and completely ignoring me when I asked him why he did that, was it an accident…he pretended not to hear me or acknowledge it at all for about five minutes until I would not let it go, but kept gently asking why, saying that it hurt me, asking if he didn’t see me right behind him. That must have amused him mightily.

     I got the silent treatment or a rage for asking “the wrong” question. I got mimicked, made fun of, cut down, mistreated if I said “the wrong” thing. I got ‘accidently’ shoved or injured, talked badly about in front of my face to one of his friends and then he denied it, right then, right there, as if I didn’t hear exactly what he said.

     All that, and more, gaslighting, craziness. Everyone deserves so much better. How is it I can still feel love for any person who would treat me this way? I saw so much good in him, too, some of the best qualities human beings have…and yet all of this other stuff…

     I believe he can’t feel. It was weird, but all his ‘emotional’ responses, even down to laughter, were all wrong. They were too loud, too vehement, a few beats too late or too soon. Does that make any sense? Like he would laugh really loudly and falsely at something that either wasn’t funny or wasn’t funny enough to elicit that response, and it would be a beat too late. Even his anger seemed over-the-top but felt unreal.

     So weird…I sensed all these things but never put them all together until learning about S’s and N’s. Then…click. Everything in place.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 27 March 2008 @ 6:48pm

117. hummingbird1418 says:

     This all sounds so familiar. If he got angry at me for some small thing, he would not call or answer my calls for a day or two. I guess this was some form of punishment for not agreeing with him.
     Once he told me about a friend whose wife bought him a new van on a whim and he asked me if he asked for one would I buy one for him. I hesitated because I was making car payments on a Buick at the time and he practically hung up on me and wouldn’t talk to me the rest of the day.
     I should have seen the red flags at this time as well but thought that somehow it was my fault for being insensitive.

     I also have a hard time understanding his using his grand-children as an excuse when he must have had the other woman at his house. When I saw women’s underwear and lingerie in his hamper, he said that it belonged to his grand-daughter.

     LilOrphan: S is for sociopath, what does the N mean?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 6:47am

118. LilOrphan says:

     hummingbird1418:

     N is Narcissism, from which P and S both spring. Heard it said that all S’paths and P’paths are Ns, but not all N’s turn into P’s and S’s. Just that if a person is a P they are also an N.

     Google Narcissism. You’ll likely be shocked at how many traits and characteristics of one match the person you were with.

     I’m at that point right now, am sure it will pass, but am unfortunately mired at the moment, the point where you look back on everything YOU did or didn’t do and wish you had reacted differently. Objectively, it’s pretty crazy, because all I did was hide because I kind of knew this was the route we would take, and if I opened up this time, it might kill me. He wouldn’t, directly, physically or whatever, but loving and dealing with him might.

     I’m at that point think we all go through where part of me is like, hey, give it up – he just didn’t love you like you loved him. It’s not some pathology or whatever…if he really loved you, he’d still be around, and you were just an idiot, self.

     About the worst damage they do, if they’re not super violent or out to scam your money, is leave your head totally fucked and your confidence in the toilet. You can spend the rest of your life going back and forth, back and forth on what exactly happened and blaming yourself from time to time.

     Right now, I just feel a whole lot of pain, like I screwed-up just as bad as him. But later when this passes I will look at it again and see the things he said and did, the lies, the promises he never planned on keeping, and all the times he did this stuff before when I WAS totally unguarded and open to him…

     and once again will know that I could’ve behaved much differently, much better even, but the end result would’ve been sitting here on a Friday morning at 9, feeling terrible.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 8:15am

119. peggywhoever says:

     LilOrphan:

     You MUST look at these websites below. I believe it explains exactly the phenomenon you are referring to, and they have some other fascinating articles. I will also include an interesting link about rats that I believe applies to ALL of us here at Lovefraud:

     The Poor Narcissist Feels Threatened

     http://narc-attack.blogspot.co.....tened.html

     The Rat Game

     http://narc-attack.blogspot.co.....-game.html

     These articles really brought to light the situations we face with S’s, “why” we keep going back, and the confusion of their attacking us.

     I had the same experience “click, all in place”. Without a clinical diagnosis, one cannot “prove” that someone is a S, but we KNOW, as much as we know our own birthday, or anything else that is provable.

     LilOrphan, YOU didn’t screw up! HE did! No matter what you did, the results would have been the same. A big hug to you.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 9:44am

120. LilOrphan says:

     Thanks peggy, for both the links and support. You’ve been really wonderful…everyone on here has. Bit embarrassing to be going two steps forward, one step back so much lately…thought I was doing better, overall. Maybe it’s just a short phase…

     Will be back later – have to go to work now.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 9:52am

121. hummingbird1418 says:

     I feel like I have been going forward and back as well. I hid this relationship with him from my family because he said that my children weren’t ready for a new man in their life.

     LilOrphan: It wasn’t just you. We all fell in love with someone who presented themselves as the kind of person we wanted to have in our lives. I can see now that the flattery, attention, interest, gifts, etc. were just an elaborate ploy to make me think that he loved me and was concerned about me.

     The money bothers me because I gave it no questions asked. I can see now that part of his interest was in emptying my bank account.

     I am going to look at the links you sent Peggy. I am so glad that I found this website; otherwise, I wouldn’t have any outlet for the horrible betrayal that I feel.

     Everyone here has been so supportive. It will be hard to explain to others how I could have been manipulated the way I have been.

     I also keep looking back at what I did and said over the past four years. I should never have let someone dominate my life like he has. I know how you feel about trying to figure out what would have happened if you had done something differently.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 10:06am

122. peggywhoever says:

     hummingbird1418/LilOrphan:

     Learning about Sociopathy has been one of the most fascinating sciences. It is utterly amazing. And I am so thankful that we are all figuring out the “puzzle” of what happened, then the “why” of them, but also the “why” of us…why did we believe, why did we allow ourselves to be abused, why were we deceived? What is wrong with US? WHY?

     So many questions have been answered here that it has been very healing. It is wonderful to commiserate and rejoice with people on Lovefraud we don’t even “know” … who start to feel like your friends as if a bonding takes place because of your shared experiences.

     It is so interesting to see the same pattern repeat itself…the S’s do the same things, and WE tend to be very similar in our behaviours/reactions as well. So ultimately, in our quest for knowledge about S’s, I believe the end result is that we become very introspective in figuring the meaning/purpose of life’s adventure and “why” we behave as we do, and, ultimately, “who” we are. The road is a bit bumpy and treacherous at first, but there are beautiful meadows, snow-capped mountains, streams and flowers as we come to understand the beauty that exists in US. It has become, for me, almost a spiritual quest, and an incredible process..I am glad that we have shared this journey together.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 10:26am

123. hummingbird1418 says:

     It certainly has been a learning experience. Except for what I have seen in movies about psychopaths, I had no idea they functioned so well among us undetected. I always envisioned them as criminals or serial killers luring victims with their lies and promises. I never thought that they could function in what we consider normal society and blend in with the rest of us.

     From what I read in Without Conscience by Dr. Hare there is no cure for this. There may have been a chance for therapy when the S was young and still developing social skills. Adult S play the game with therapists and say what they think the therapist wants to hear. They are articulate and can manipulate even a trained psychiatrist.
     I feel things so deeply. I can’t imagine having shallow emotions or none at all.

     These predators prey on the lonely, confused, nurturing, and loving individuals in our society. They steal their assets and their dignity. They make them doubt themselves. They try to dominate all aspects of their lives.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 10:55am

124. LilOrphan says:

     But..but..but…(whines and stomps feet) I was ALREADY introspective and curious about life. Too much, sometimes. I guess that may be the silver lining, that we have to grow from this experience, somehow, and become better people, and we often do just that, learn more…for me, HEAL myself, and for many of you too.

     I was lonely back then. Not confused, not without a good sense of who I am, but lonely and easily dominated because I was in charge of two sick parents, one rebellious teen and one sick pre-teen. It felt like the world was on my shoulders and nobody was there to help me figure it all out. Was so worried about failing any of those four, letting them down, screwing something up, having to be the person in charge and do it all alone. He even said, “Who’s there to take care of you?” when we first started talking again. Had never thought of it that way. Once those floodgates opened, I wanted so much for someone to help me, to take some of it off me.

     The funny part? Aside from the distractions of decent sex and nice dinners…nobody ever did come along who really helped or took any of it off me. He really didn’t when the chips were down. He did in the beginning hug me, try to make me feel better through activities, but he made a very clear distinction between his life and mine….he did not ever really want to become a part of mine. Never met the parents, only met one of the kids.

     We never progressed beyond the initial stage of dating – never gave each other our home keys, never announced we were together, never dropped by on each other….

     I remember feeling that he deliberately kept things at a certain level between us: this close and no closer, regardless of what he said otherwise. And if we started getting closer, he poofed for a few days or staged a disagreement, or said something to toss me back into uncertainty.

     It all felt orchestrated, these events as they happened.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 2:29pm

125. OxDrover says:

     As “caregivers” of others–parents, etc. we tend to put other’s needs first before our own. I know that I did that to a great degree. My wonderful step father was ill for about a year before my husband died and I was his caregiver for 24/7 for a while, and then pretty much all the time with some breaks, but I WANTED to do that, and I should have done that, BUT–B-U-T- I should have taken more time for myself and my own needs….so by the time my husband died in the accident, I was already weakened from too much care giving for others.

     Then I CONTINUED to take care of my step father for another 6 months, and during that time mom had surgery and needed my care–I had two hospital beds in their house for several months. I had household help, and home health, but it seemed as if each of them would have one complication or drug reaction after another.

     AGAIN, I didn’t take care of ME.

     After my dad died, I continued to do too much care taking of mom but she had surgery after surgery and complication after complication—but again, I DID TOO MUCH FOR HER and NOTHING for me.

     Then the P BF sent me for a loop, 8 months of “relationship” and 6 months of healing over that kick in the teeth.

     After mom got where she should have been more self sufficient, she became DEPENDENT and EXPECTED that I should continue the care giving and when I tried to set a boundary and take care of me, she saw it as an abandonment of her, and I had NO right to take care of me—not when she wanted me there at her beck and call.

     Then all hell broke loose with the Trojan horse P coming on the scene at the lowest ebb for me, and the timing was perfect for the scam.

     I am just grateful to God that I intuitively knew that it was dangerous and that I had to escape to live. I can honestly say that the Internet saved by life, because it was through the Internet that his SEXUAL predator history was disclosed—a friend found it and sent to me, after that I got in touch with the sheriff, the private investigator etc. and put 2 and 2 together and when I couldn’t do anything else, got the heck out of “Dodge”—

     Taking care of those we love, our spouse, parent, children, can be an ALL CONSUMING job if we let it, but IT IS NOT HEALTHY to do so. I realize that there are crises like a sick child, or parent or spouse, but we MUST MUST MUST take care of ourselves as well. Especially because if we don’t’ we will use all our own resources for someone else and then we will have NONE left for them as well as NONE left for ourselves.

     I have preached this for years to others who were caregivers for sick kids or parents or spouses, but just didn’t take my own advice. I thought I was “tough” and could hold on better than those others—forgetting that I am just as human as they are and I need to take care of ME too.

     The sandwich generation of which I am one, is taking care of your kids at the same time as taking care of your parents is a perfect set up for not taking care of yourself, but we MUST.

     Now, I take care of me first and if you are ON FIRE, if I have the energy I will put you out, but I am not going to totally deplete all my energy on anyone else. I just can’t do it. I have to rebuild some reserves of emotional strength.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 3:24pm

126. hummingbird1418 says:

     That is exactly the way it was with us. We did exchange house keys, but I have not meant any members of his family except his son and that was at work.

     He gave me the excuse that it wouldn’t look good to his grand-children if we moved in together.
     I left work early on Valentine’s Day to drop off a gift at his house. He was very upset because he said that his neighbors called the police thinking that I was a burglar.
     I have been at this man’s house hundreds of times and they have to know me and my car.

     I think that he just doesn’t want me dropping in anytime without warning. He said that I would need to inform him first in case one of the police called him.

     We also have never told anyone we are seeing each other. Here at work a few have suspected but nothing was ever said.

     I’m glad you said that because I thought it was odd.
     He wanted me to wait until I was divorced a year to tell my children. That will be in September and we know that will never happen. If I hadn’t planned to end it, he would have before that happened. I can never meet the family when he has taken the other woman to all his family functions and vacations.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 3:30pm

127. LilOrphan says:

     Odd…yes. It was odd. Ours was “not believing in living together when kids were involved.” Which, you know, I don’t believe in it. But later, as he grew more and more distant and less present, I knew that wasn’t really the problem. The problem was apparently we had an expiration date stamped somewhere on us that only he knew about – and it was long before my daughter would be ready to move out.

     I just don’t. get. it.

     I mean, why bother? Why bother dating someone you didn’t love for nearly a year? Why spend every night on the phone with her for the first three months before she’d even agree to see you again? Why spend all that cash on nights out with her? Why woo someone you don’t have any idea what the heck to do with and you plan to discard anyway?

     Privately, I used to see it as my being a very lovely antique and him being the owner of a roomful of contemporary furniture: he knew I was valuable and worth keeping, but he had no place where I’d actually belong in the rest of his life.

     It’s all so very weird. I respected those odd boundaries of his, his wanting to keep everything compartmentalized, until I eventually thought they were in place to keep the “interaction” self-limiting. That they weren’t an outgrowth of just who he was, or a desire to go slow, or a desire to maintain autonomy — but a way to control me and control the relationship as he wanted it to be. Limited. Barely present. Easily dismissed.

     And ugh, I do really love some things and miss some things. Not really the sex, even, although he is still the best partner I had there, too. More the closeness when we were together physically, laying on the couch watching tv. I craved that man’s presence in ways that never happened before or since. And hear you guys say the same kinds of things!

     Was it the good and bad dichotomy and emotional roller coaster that caused an addiction? I used to think it was that I understood his soul and he understood mine, deep down, that we were meant to be together, that he felt like HOME. I don’t mean my abusive parents’ home. I mean my own heart’s home.

     All of this is so hard to admit, but ultimately it will be freeing, hopefully.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 28 March 2008 @ 7:32pm

128. Beverly says:

     LilOrphan, your recollection twanged a discordant note with me. When I met my exN he was a solitary single man with strong messages around his privacy and I respected that. But in a sense I was unknowingly colluding in a game which he had played before and in which I was totally unaware. Why didnt I just turn up at his place when he cancelled one of our arrangements. When he was supposedly asleep and I was calling him but sitting outside his place, why didnt I call at his door to check him.

     Probably because I knew he would blame me for insecurity (his number one accusation) and I would get some rage. But why didnt I turn up at his work when he had to ‘unexpectedly’ work on christmas day? Because I wanted to trust him. What I realised in the end, was that it was all about control to him and that everything he said and did was thought out in advance. Like you said, why did they show willing, because its all about the chase.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 6:22am

129. holywatersalt says:

     LIL O-crasrd
     The attention, the interest- that’s what killed me. I did not have a physical r/s with p ( despite his desire to do so) but he was ever attentive– within BOUNDS. He’d call every day, email, visit me, for over a year–acted as if he and I (and some others) were “his friends.” But I was special,well early on I figured out the rules, I called him once, asked if he was busy , he said no- started to talk about my day- ten seconds he had to go.

     I maybe called him 5 times to his hundreds–b/c I was most defintely TRAINED not to, that and to not talk about myself or my interests. He’d go silent. Once- I will never forget this– and this was early on– he cut a conversation of mid-section when I said ” my life is like a book.” I asked him why later, he said:” I thought you were ging to talk about yourself.”

     Yeah—Well, I wasn’t stupid enough to try that! My life really was like a book- at the time ironically two books being sold in bookstores (one bestseller) were about events or people I know.
     He had no interest at all.

     At the end- he told me he charitably was my friend, called to give me a chance to be friendly- thought I was insane and stupid. Correctly stated:
     I don’t even know you.

     That last statement really hurt, but he knew, he knew he just used me for my connections and since I wouldn’t be sexually useful– he was done. I was objectified totally. And discarded when he no longer needed my connections.

     He pretended to be my friend- but NEVER in any real way was–I filled-in his blanks- I assumed. I won’t go into details of how he knew I was a the perfect target, but it was easy to discern and he knew I wanted a friends. So he played that, he lost his bet on sex.

     I was just there to listen and give him attention. And yeah allow him to due people. He used me a lot for that.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 8:47am

130. OxDrover says:

     Quote: Holywatersalt

     “I thought you were going to talk about yourself” LOL ROTFL

     He just wanted an AUDIENCE for his performance. Now N-ish of him. LOL

     Isn’t it laughable NOW when we see how totally self-centered they are? What kind of “friend” doesn’t want to know about YOU?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 9:42am

131. Marie says:

     Hi I’m new here and I must say that I feel overwhelmed with the similarities in many of the comments made which are so like my own experiences.

     Beverley I can particularly identify with much of what you say. It is earily chilling, your man sounds so much like my ex, who was a solitary single man too, and valued his privacy to the extreme. Right from the start he would drop hints into our conversations letting me know that he didn’t like being questioned too much. He was very deep. He told me that previous g/f’s hadn’t trusted him enough (red flag), and that he had got rid of them because they were too inquisitive. I learnt from very early on to be wary of what I said to him in case he thought I was prying. He accused me of being insecure, which I am not, and never have been in previous relationships. He played cat and mouse with me until I was too confused to work out exactly what on earth I was dealing with. Of course he was well ahead of the game having played it and won out many times before.

     Yes it is all about control. They love to push all the buttons and make us dance. But should we dare to question them then all hell breaks loose.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 9:47am

132. Beverly says:

     Hi Marie, Yes it was done all done with a subtle stealth, a hint here (usually when he was going home) to allow me to stew over his comments, a warning there – done ever so subtlely, like yours – a warning- bounced off the back of his previous girfriends. My exN said, I would stand for any woman who went through my pockets or phone. This was an obvious warning to me and believe me I couldnt get into his phone. I even bought him a kids book as a joke, it was called ‘A Cat and Mouse Love Story’.

     My intuition was firing on all cylinders, I just didnt know at the time what it was all about, but I certainly fell in with his rules, never openly checked up on him or called in to see him and darn it – I wished I had done that, I would have caught him off balance alot earlier than I did.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 1:19pm

133. OxDrover says:

     Marie, Hello and welcome.

     To both you and Beverly I say, there is a BIG difference between “privacy” and “secrecy” and people who are too secret about their background or their business sort of are “off” some how. What is it that they are hiding?

     As Secret Monster says (paraphrase) though, if you APPEAR open but aren’t really, it is easier to fool people.

     If I had a romantic relationship with someone I would expect to know where they lived and visit there, and them come to my house. Early on I would expect to call before I went or expect him to call before he came, but if the relationship deepens to where it was an “important” and “close” relationship I would expect he could drop by my house anytime and vice versa.

     In more distant “friendships” or whatever, I would expect that someone would call before they came to my house, but my FRIENDS are welcome at any time…if I am busy I will tell them and they say “no problem” and the same with them. If I am near a close friend’s house and have time and think they are probably home, I may drop by. If it is inconvenient, I move on, and my friends so the same for me…no problem. I know that some people though are not comfortable with the “drop by” thing with their friends, but if you have a “relationship” with someone why would you have a problem with it unless you are hiding something?

     Beverly, I think all of us had “intuition firing on all cylinders” but we didn’t listen. Laugh

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 2:15pm

134. findingmyselfagain says:

     At the earliest point of our meeting and considering dating, we had this little joke about me coming over for a glass of wine and a game of Go Fish. I’m the one that brought up the card game, but I dont recall how it became that particular card game or what it all pertained to. Soon after that I found this really cool artsy looking deck of Go Fish cards. We had not dated yet at this point, so I left them on his desk, basically a hint that yes, I would like to take you up on coming over for a glass of wine sometime.

     Now – its a grotesque memory – as little did I know I was just one of the dumb fish in his deck and as he paired off with fish after fish – he apparently was the winner of the Game with the most pairs of cards (women).

     Never thought of that till Beverely mentioned the kid book of Cat and Mouse. Same feeling she has I’m sure. euugh.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 3:15pm

135. Marie says:

     “Intuition firing on all cylinders”…….yep I had that too but ignored it to my detriment. My intuition was screaming at me, telling me that things weren’t right with the guy but I made excuses and refused to listen!

     Beverly I too wish I had checked up on him instead of going along with his idea of keeping his privacy. He was kind of shifty right from the onset, if I hadn’t been so taken with him I would have realised that he was hiding so much from me. He never sat opposite me, always insisted that I sit right next to him. With hindsight I guess he was trying to prevent me from seeing the real man behind the mask. He didn’t realise that the rose tinted glasses I wore only saw ‘Mr Perfect’.

     Hi OxDrover, you are so right in saying that there is a big difference between privacy and secrecy. As it turned out my ex had many awful secrets of his past life that he did not want me to find out about. He was so guarded that I once jokingly commented on his invisible suit of armour. It was like he wanted to hold me, yet was also keen to keep me at arms length – very contradictory and confusing behaviour.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 3:25pm

136. findingmyselfagain says:

     Early in our dating, we were discussing the fact of not dating a bunch of people at once… and that I dont generally date like that. He said he didnt either etc.. but later in the conversation he told me never to come over without calling. That he wouldnt do that to me so I shouldnt show up at his place unannounced.

     I could have nipped this 2 year waste-of-my-time, in the bud had I really LISTENED to my intuition when I heard that! But no, I just figured he was having a hard time committing to someone after having been married so long. And that, yes… its common courtesy. But he set it up early as a rule.

     He cheated on his wife of 22 years the entire marriage, and on every woman he dated for the 5 years after her.
     Of course they dont want you showing up without calling ~ you never know what you might find. I kick myself for even allowing myself to let that comment get by me. Where was my head!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 3:33pm

137. peggywhoever says:

     Below is a website for identifying Narcissists (from what I understand, not all N’s are P’s or S’s but ALL P’s and S’s are N). This list is somewhat different from the identifiers of a S, i.e., Personality Profile. (see the last 1/2 of the article)

     http://www.narcissism.operatio.....ttrust.htm

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     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 4:22pm

138. OxDrover says:

     Peggy,

     Thanks for that link. I read several of her articles and most of it I totally agree with and she explains things in simple words and examples. Her examples that I read were great!

     Some of her “deeper” writings about the causes of NPD I don’t totally agree with but it is one of those areas where she isn’t claiming to be a scientist, and in spotting red flags and other things it doesn’t make a great deal of difference HOW a malignant Narcissist (which I think is closer to a psychopath than an Narcissist Personality Disorder) In other words, “a rose by any other name…”

     Thanks for a good link, Peggy

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 6:03pm

139. hummingbird1418 says:

     Good Evening,
     I’ve been working at my second job todaya and don’t have access to a computer. I like reading all the comments made on this blog because now I feel that I am not alone and can discuss this destructive relationship with someone.

     I also was accused of being insecure when I commented on the women’s lingerie in his hamper. He said that they belonged to his grand-daughter. He also constantly gets calls from the four mothers of his godchildren. I personally thought that this was very odd. He was giving them personal advice all the time.

     I already mentioned that he didn’t want me going to his house unless I informed him first because of the neighborhood watch – baloney.

     I went to a girlfriend’s house last night and the six of us had our fortunes read by a Tarot card reader. One of my cards was the Devil (upside down) and the Knight of Swords.
     The interpretation was grief at the hands of a male figure. Arguments and finally an end to enslavement after a fearful period. Eerie, wasn’t it?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 29 March 2008 @ 8:52pm

140. alohatraveler says:

     hummingbird,

     We can see through all those weirdo excuses of that man. I don’t know anyone that has 4 godchildren. Are you sure these aren’t his children by all these women? That seems quite likely in this context.

     Glad you are here and finding some comfort here.

     Aloha…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 30 March 2008 @ 8:27pm

141. LilOrphan says:

     holywatersalt -

     There’s always the hooks. I think it stymied the Wolf this time around because he did everything “right” to totally hook me and then when I was ready to walk off, he couldn’t fathom how I could leave that type of up one minute, down the next, pain and pleasure roller coaster they create for the purposes OF hooking you. It threw him – I was in a vulnerable place but part of me never let myself trust him fully after our past. Which was that little shred of doubt serving as a life preserver when he started to become strange and mean. That doubt was there from day one and, along with the people who served as sounding boards, it kept me from falling into his lake and totally sinking.

     Though, in hindsight, not enough…to just shake this experience off without residual effect.

     I’m…far less certain of myself. Anyone else? In everything, my self-worth is damaged. I have trouble going up and speaking to people because he made me think so many people didn’t like me (people we both knew socially). Or that I was annoying them, like I annoyed him.

     Discussed this today via email with someone we both knew who I spent years thinking didn’t like me. Finally got to know this person well enough to ASK. And boy, did I hear a bunch of new stuff about the Wolf….from another’s perspective, not romantically involved with him, but still personally involved and feeling negative towards him.

     “He pretended to be my friend- but NEVER in any real way was–I filled-in his blanks- I assumed. I won’t go into details of how he knew I was a the perfect target, but it was easy to discern and he knew I wanted a friends”

     That’s what the Wolf did to this person. Used him as a stepping stone, messed with his life for awhile, and when this person was no longer useful, he discarded them…and still badmouths them.

     It’s who they are. It’s what they do. Be glad you were never sexually intimate, though emotional intimacy is just as painful.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 30 March 2008 @ 8:48pm

142. hummingbird1418 says:

     I don’t think that they are his children although the woman that he has been vacationing with has a son (his godson) who is waiting trial on criminal charges – armed robbery I believe.

     My S actually criticized his grand-daughter for lying to her father about where she was and with whom. He said that he can’t believe a thing that she says – the apple didn’t fall far from that tree.

     I went to a co-workers house warming and a friend’s birthday party alone today. Enjoyed myself.

     Does their behavior ever get better? Do they feel any remorse for what they have done to other people’s lives?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 30 March 2008 @ 9:14pm

143. LilOrphan says:

     I don’t know, hummingbird. Mine used to say “it’s all about me” about life. Turns out, it appears he meant it. All the literature and studies say they cannot change, but in my heart I believe it’s possible for everyone to change if they really want to. Including us.

     He’s the only man who, to this day, still has the capacity to make me crazy. Think it was Ox-D who said mental and emotional NC are as important as physical NC. Have mastered the latter, but am often stuck in the former.

     He said we had a love/hate relationship…think it meant I loved him, he hated me, and I would learn to hate what I became when I was around him.

     As for remorse, I never saw any overt remorse on how anything happened in his life with anyone. He said things like “times change, people change” to explain his disconnect from other relationships, personal or business. He kept EVERYTHING to himself, though, buttoned-down pretty tight.

     Just like all the other times, he’s gone without so much as a backwards glance, phone call or attempt to contact me. Out of sight, out of mind. Doesn’t sound like someone who carries a lot of remorse.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 30 March 2008 @ 9:46pm

144. holywatersalt says:

     Lil O-
     I just as of Sat. realized I DO NOT CARE. It’s not there, all gone. In fact, he annoys me to no end. I wish I never had to see him.

     I am dumbstruck why I ever cared what this clown thought—I pray everyone gets to this point. It is such a relief.

     Of course, the P still plays games– I just do not care.
     I think something finally snapped- I saw him in his full psycho suit–he puts on these dramatic clown acts to attract attention, huge gestures and pretend assistance…all phoney. Makes me want to wretch.

     I made excuses before, but now as they say: I see.

     I’d have to change my entire life to avoid him, and I know he shows up to be an affront to me among other things–so I treat him like a plant.

     To address the mental NC- I had a hell of a time b/c I obsess naturally—it’s gone. Gone, gone, gone, it’s gone away to quote the Violent Femmes I believe !!! I could dance. You will get to this point —it took me over a year.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 30 March 2008 @ 10:02pm

145. LilOrphan says:

     Glad to hear that, hummingbird! You sound incredibly free and happy and that’s wonderful!! I felt that way for awhile in December and January. Even tried to start dating in February. But there’s something that just keeps me locked-in, somehow.

     Thought this time around I would have done everything I could think of to make it work- because regrets are God’s way of keeping a crack in the door -and that if it didn’t work out it would be “Alls well that ends well.”

     Only…it didn’t end well. Feels like there’s leftover business, like I’m left here shadow-boxing with myself and my heart, even though he’s gone. It also feels like I’ve kicked my own butt in the karma department and am going to somehow see him in the next lifetime to try and work this out. Like I failed at something huge and so did he.

     A year? It took me five the first time (ouch, I’m cringing as I write that…) and by year five, I think even my persistent brain neurons were like, “Look, lady, we’re TIRED of this subject, already, ya mopey bi-atch!” so it was more a matter of bigger issues, like my parents, taking up my heart.

     However long it takes, I have to honor that. Instead of trying to jump into another relationship to get over him, or try to force myself to hate him, or even force myself not to think about it (which was working pretty well there for a few months). Otherwise, I end up back and forth, back and forth.

     It’s over for him. Not sure it ever started – for him. But for me, well, I had seriously strong emotions and genuinely loved who I thought he was. Rather than deny that reality because it’s painful, or run from it, or think/do childish little things because they temporarily make me feel better, I’m just gonna have to ride it out without doing anything. Feels like pointless flailing, anyway.

     Since you said you obsess naturally, it’s really even greater to hear the certainty in your post that you are done. Gives me hope! Am very happy you’re feeling that way!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 30 March 2008 @ 10:31pm

146. Ariadne says:

     LilOrphan,

     I know how you feel about the social interaction stuff that you mentioned a few posts ago. I still constantly doubt myself and I always think people are mad at me and then I avoid them and it becomes a huge mess. I am in a much better place than I was before and I have faith in myself but I guess I just don’t have faith in other people’s ability to appreciate who I am. And like me for it. I know I’m not a bad person but I don’t know if people understand me. I think I probably don’t give them a chance to.

     Yeah I just have a REALLY hard time trusting anyone. And even if I do start to, sometimes something happens and I obsessively pick it apart and question their intentions. I think my brain is pretty sick of doing that too!

     By the way, if the karma thing is true, your BM will probably be born in his next life as a rat eating your garbage.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 2:54am

147. Ariadne says:

     Holywatersalt,
     Congratulations on getting to that stage! That’s really great for you. That is the best way to deal with them, to “treat them like a plant.” Wonderful.

     Indifference drives them crazy. I think that is the only effective response to their crap. If you ignore them, they might jump through burning hoops to get your attention but it won’t work. Putting up that emotional wall between you so that they have nothing to work with is the only way, it’s great that you have the courage to do that. I know it isn’t easy to get to that point.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 3:13am

148. holywatersalt says:

     Thanks Ariadne!
     I think it was key that I repeat/read over and his voice/words telling me I
     am insane, stupid, sociopath (in retrospect–that’s hysterical), tedious and oblivious oh yes and and old. Old? I am 5 yrs. older and as if that is a sin, crime …..see he’s juvenile.

     I know it sucks to let what we thought was go or at least for me it was- I had to be true to my friend. Finally sometime I realized he wasn’t ever even a little concerned or interested in me — he lied to me. For awhile I believed I had assumed, imagined, but I have it in print his lies…so I know he just played me. I have a txt message of cruelty I keep/kept to remind myself of how evil he is…at that time I chalked it uo to being “insecure” and scared.

     Nope, he played it so well I fell over myself trying to apologize for nothing. I was in quite a state- he was amused. You know what Adriadne that’s not a friend, not how a normal, considerate person acts. He was torturing me for sport, I can’t care for someone who wanted to toy with my entire life for amusement.

     One way I cope is to say if he ever did change–it would have to come from him. He’d have to transform….I don’t know what he’d have to do–I’d never trust him again. But if he did ever change— like when gravity ends— it would come from him. My loss, my hurt, my care— hurt me, they don’t help anyone.

     It’s your own timetable- I know, these are my feelings…but I know for me, I hung on out of sense of loyalty through my thoughts and concern.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 6:42am

149. LilOrphan says:

     Ariadne:

     What causes that social interaction difficulty? Is that common after this kind of experience? It’s soooo odd to feel this way. Was it because our internal trust meters got zapped and temporarily broken from experiences where what we thought was reality truly wasn’t? Does this make us paranoid to some degree that people in general don’t like us because the things the S’paths put in our heads? I miss my faith in the fundamental goodness of humanity; it waivers much more than it should. Miss having faith in my own overall goodness. This experience brought out the absolute worst in me, in many ways.

     What do you feel caused you to feel that social anxiety?

     And, oh my God…your line about karma made me almost fall over laughing! The people in life who truly care and know me would actually say something along those lines, too. Being here and talking with you guys is some of the best healing possible. Peggy has been wonderful with links and articles I’m still sifting through, you guys all are thought-provoking and insightful about how it feels to come out of the other side of this experience at various stages of healing.

     Indifference is the goal, then, as far as he goes. Will try to see a rat eating my garbage whenever I think of him and see if that doesn’t help at least make me laugh!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 6:50am

150. LilOrphan says:

     HWS:

     He called you an S’path? Do they have a script somewhere? One of the things that landed me right here typing was him calling me a “psychopath” after we’d had this (I thought) wonderful day and evening cooking out and talking, playing word games with my youngest outside until the wee hours of the morning last summer. It was one of my best memories of being with him. The next day on the phone, not fighting, no problems, just talking, he called me that out of nowhere. It wasn’t the first time and I thought…”huh?”

     So I looked it up and it described his actions.

     Is that projection on their parts? WTF?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 6:54am

151. OxDrover says:

     Reaching a point where you truly are not “curious” about them, i.e. INDIFFERENCE, not wishing them bad, not wishing them good, not wanting to know what is going on with them…to me that is the place to be. With my X-P-BF, and with my P-son, I am there…still feel a bit of anger (i.e. still care some) about my P-by-proxy (enabling) mother, but am “getting there” slowly.

     The night I visited her and we “talked” before I went NC with her, we were discussing my P-bio father and how my P-son was just like him, and she looked at me scornfully and said “Oh, you think it skipped a generation, do you?”

     The answer to that is a resounding “YES I do” though it is obvious since my son is a P that some of those genes are in my body to enable me to pass them on. Why I am NOT a P is a mystery to me since I obviously got P-genes from BOTH sides of my ancestry.

     I think as long as we CARE they still have a hold on us, and the indifference is where we need to “aim” and I think can eventually get there. It took a great while, even after I went NC with my P-son to where I didn’t have a curiosity about what was happening to him…what he was thinking…now that curiosity is gone and I think I am where I need to be with him.

     I’m working through the anger with mother, the disappointment that I don’t have a loving and caring mother, and that my mother is such a die-hard-enabler and P-by-proxy that for all intents and purposes her behavior is just as evil because she will protect him, knowing what he has done, protect him knowing that he is evil, just not caring what pain he has inflicted on his victims. Protecting her own P-fantasy that he will get out of prison before she dies. She’s into the P-fog so deeply that if at this time in her life she actually gave up her delusions and denial, she would fall apart, and she must preserve it in order to exist, to give meaning to her entire life.

     I know how difficult it is to give up your delusions, to cast away denial, to face reality that someone you love is EVIL, and to realize how you have enabled them, how you have “wasted” your own substance to enable them. Used so much energy to maintain the denial rather than face the painful truth.

     I read recently (can’t remember where) that “TRUTH IS PAINFUL, but in the end it SETS YOU FREE.”

     Facing my own truths has indeed been very painful, but I am now becoming FREE.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 11:24am

152. holywatersalt says:

     Lil O-

     Yes, s/path and claimed he had asbergers—the genius autism. Before that it was ADD. He knew he was screwed up–all projection.

     And not that I believe he is decompensating (is that the correct word?) — it’s all hanging out.

     I know he knows he’s f–cked. When I first met him he admitted after I asked my standard cocktail party question: “have you ever seen a ghost?
     that he felt he had been possessed by some entity at eighteen.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 11:48am

153. Ariadne says:

     LilOrphan,
     I think the trust thing (at least for me) must have partly come from childhood stuff and partly from bad relationships. But you know, with friends that I really trust, that doesn’t really make a difference in our relationship. I talk to them and realize pretty quickly what their intentions are and everything is okay.

     But I feel like the closeness to the sociopath made me look at the subtext of life more closely. Usually for every action, there is a certain motivation or intention behind it. There is a whole other layer beneath the superficial actions that everyone performs, and it becomes obvious if you just pay close attention. For normal people it is usually innocent or not purposeful, but for sociopaths, it is the reality in which they operate.

     I will never regret having this awareness. I guess I am sad that there isn’t intrinsic goodness in everyone, but I am not sad that I don’t have that world view, because it would just open me to heartache.

     So I guess if people who don’t know me don’t understand me, there’s nothing I can do about it. But when I make friends, they are good ones and I know I can trust them. I don’t really spend time with acquaintances very much. Maybe that’s a really cynical way to look at the world, but it works for me. I think the thing that bothers me is not my own world view, but how much it sucks that we have to be so careful because this world has people like S’s/P’s in it.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 11:57am

154. holywatersalt says:

     Wanted to add– I am now paranoid about my own behavior and others.

     I think hypervigilance is normal now.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 12:13pm

155. OxDrover says:

     The rabbit that survives is HYPERVIGILANT, the one that isn’t hyper-vigilant doesn’t survive….

     so maybe it is a good thing that we are on the watch for RED FLAGS with people.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 12:22pm

156. LilOrphan says:

     Subtext, paranoia and hyper-vigilance are all three things I can relate to, Ariadne, holywater and Ox-D. The P used to act as though every conversation I had with him had some sort of hidden attack or personal meaning, something important I was trying to convey in some sort of weird underlying code or something. As if. I’m as subtle as an anvil, really.

     When we were getting along and he hadn’t yet started acting withholding, mean, distant, etc. I recall saying to him as we sat on the couch:

     “Not everything I say has some sort of judgment or is anything to do with you, any reflection of you, or me, or whatever. Most of the time I just tell you things to have a conversation. There’s no subtext and certainly nothing threatening. We can’t have good communication if that’s going to be your concern because it’s not how I operate.”

     He seemed relieved! I was…shocked. Shocked that it seemed I’d hit the nail on the head.

     When I talk to people, unless it’s led by a direct “Hey, here’s something bothering me,” or “hey, we need to talk” or something that indicates importance, it’s otherwise just what I call babbling. I’m chatter-y sometimes, and quiet other times, but I never have conversations with some sort of agenda to them unless it’s made direct and clear.

     Could not understand why anyone would think that! Same with actions. I don’t do things with “a plan” or agenda. Most of the time, I just don’t think that deeply, and certainly not deviously, about moving through the world on a daily basis.

     But an S does. It’s how they operate.

     Being uncertain right now, I tend to look for clues as to how others are perceiving me. God, I hate that so very much. It feels almost S-like. Have always been good at picking-up clues from being empathetic towards people. Both my girls are also quite good at reading others’ feelings in the moment. But I’ve never been so vigilant or socially anxious before.

     Even took to asking my very closest friend if she was mad at me…all the time. To the point where it annoyed her so badly she said she would be, fairly soon, if I kept it up!

     I still believe most people are good, but that trust is earned, not given freely. That was a huge change, both good and bad in ways.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 7:40pm

157. OxDrover says:

     Orphan,

     I get what you mean exactly with the “chatty” part, I am always finding something interesting to talk about—in the newspaper, on the net, or in a book I am reading that I want to share with others…if someone is present…if not I may wait till later to say “Hey, I read something really interesting yesterday”—and like you, I don’t have any agenda with that sharing of interesting tidbits of information.

     When I was with the X-P-BF if we were driving down the road (and we did quite a bit of travel in areas I had not visited before) if I noticed a house that I liked or one that I thought was nice I might say “Oh, that’s a pretty house, but I would like it better if it was set further back from the busy highway” he would make some snide remark about me being overly critical—like I didn’t have a right to an opinion that I WOULD LIKE IT BACK FROM THE HIGHWAY. I wasn’t criticizing the house, just stating my preferences.

     That was the “start” of his telling me what about me that he didn’t like and that I should change to suit him…and it crept up slowly until the verbal abuse started along with the lies, etc. It crept up so slowly and I was so wanting to “please” him that I didn’t realize he was doing anything until it really started to get nasty.

     A really great by-product of my own learning experiences though with the Ps is that my two sons C and D are learning as well, and though D was not as intimately injured by my P son, or my P-BF and not involved at all with my P-bio father he is getting some great lessons in P-RED FLAGS.

     C, having been married to one for 8 years, got the “whammy” but I think is recovering more rapidly than you would expect simply because of the information he has learned about his P-brother and the actions he has seen in his X-wife and her P-BF.

     I would never wish a p-relationship on my worst enemy (if I had one that wasn’t a P LOL) but it is an “ill wind that blows no one good” and so I think in the end if we all use this horrible experience as a learning experience we can come out on the other side with some good things for ourselves in terms of self love and vigilance for our own selves. I don’t mean to sound in any way like a Pollyanna or to minimize the depth of pain we have all felt or the scars that we will probably all carry to some extent or another, but at the same time, I do think that any experience CAN have a positive side if we work at it.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 8:00pm

158. hummingbird1418 says:

     My S has always expressed concern for his mother and siblings. He tries to go home once a month to visit his mother.
     Do you think that this concern could be real?

     I too believe in the basic good in people. That is why it is difficult for me to imagine people who seek out the trusting and use and manipulate them.

     How does one go back to dating after experiencing a S in their life? How can you trust or open up to another person after having your heart broken. It would be different if a relationship just ended, but to have your trust violated and your life manipulated makes it very difficult to get involved again.

     LilOrphan: I know how you feel about unfinished business. I keep thinking about the past four years and wondering how I could have been fooled by this man. I am sure that you feel the same way. I thought that this was the man that I would spend the rest of my life with.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 9:10pm

159. LilOrphan says:

     hummingbird:

     “LilOrphan: I know how you feel about unfinished business. I keep thinking about the past four years and wondering how I could have been fooled by this man. I am sure that you feel the same way. I thought that this was the man that I would spend the rest of my life with. ”

     Ouch..yes, that is exactly it. Part of it, anyway. I do not like to dwell on this too much right now. Honestly? Maybe not ever. Can’t really “look it in the eye” just yet, so to speak. It hurts too much. I did believe this was the man I would spend forever with. More importantly, this was the man I *wanted* to take care of, to be with forever, to share all the best of life with. So regardless of whatever his feelings were or weren’t, if he was indeed “acting” as he so cruelly said one day out of nowhere, just a few days before he said he wanted to get married, my feelings are still really raw because they were real.

     And I don’t consider things like marriage at all lightly. Seems like some people get married so often it’s almost a hobby or sport, but I’ve been single 12 years since getting divorced. Am so unflailingly earnest about that kind of thing. The first marriage ended in disaster and he was actually abusive as hell, yelling, cornering me, breaking things, throwing plates and dishes and crap over past my head…

     My family of origin, or rather, adoption, was volatile. Mostly the adoptive brother who was also abusive to all of us. So I married what I knew without really knowing it. Home.

     To think that I totally got fooled by someone who didn’t really love me and enjoyed admitting it after a year…well, you know, it sucks royally. And while I realize this is not my fault or whatever, I have to wonder what needs fixing in ME that I somehow equate loving people with allowing them to treat me in ways I’d not other people.

     About dating – I don’t know. I tried it for about a split-second and it raised all sorts of emotional detritus that hadn’t yet settled from the P experience. I will again, though. I feel defiance and anger as I say this: I will date again. I will get married again. I will not allow this man and this experience to rob me of the beautiful future that will be with someone who really wants one with me. Promise me you’ll do the same? I spent five years between encounters with him living this depressing tribute to what I thought I’d lost when first leaving him behind. Now I think…what a waste.

     But first, fix and heal, patch and repair, find a way to let go of this man who apparently didn’t mean any of it, good or bad, and get our selves and souls back together, yes?

     Ox-D

     The house story brought back so many bad memories. Nothing you say to them in passing is heard with innocent ears. That was one of the first clues I had that something was genuinely wrong. He was so suspicious of everything I said or did, from the outset. If I genuinely just cared about something that seemed to bother him, he accused me of digging for dirt or trying to make an “end run” or some such football term that meant I was trying to DO SOMETHING to him. It made me stop talking so much — well, not really that, but it made me conscious of what I was saying sounding stupid, or suspicious, or all sorts of things. It made conversation unbearable. It made me doubt my goodness because he doubted my goodness. Part of that is picking-up people’s feelings and soaking them up, internalizing. Which is my own problem. But part of it was from the unkind things he would say in response.

     Wow, do I ever understand what you said. Nobody ever made me feel that badly about myself before, or doubt my own intentions. My ex was a straightforward angry person a lot of the time, but funny and he wasn’t evil or malicious – just messed-up and full of anger he’d never dealt with. We were volatile and young but really loved each other down deep.

     This man…well, this man was something else entirely.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 9:38pm

160. LilOrphan says:

     Sorry – correction: he said he was “acting” a few days after he said he wanted to get married to me. Out of nowhere, he just coldly said it, as though giving away a confidence. It was like the “reveal” Secret Monster refers to in one of his posts. He was letting me in on his “game” and I still didn’t get it. Just thought it was cruel and cold and weird, said for “shock value” but not really meant.

     I have such great capacity for both love and stupidity.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 9:41pm

161. peggywhoever says:

     LilOrphan, Oxdrover, All:

     Below is a link to “The games narcissists play” whereby there are 22 sub-links for manipulation techniques N’s (and/or S’s) play. It’s kind of interesting.

     http://www.cosmicwalk.co.za/games-doubt.html

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 9:59pm

162. OxDrover says:

     Orphan,

     You also have a WAY WITH WORDS–

     ” I have such a great capacity for both love and stupidity” LOL ROTFL

     DON’T WE ALL!!!!

     I’m like you said a couple of posts ago, Orphan, if I’m upset with you, I will tell YOU directly to your face and why—and actually I thought of myself that way, though I didn’t always practice what I knew was right in all relationships—in a romantic relationship however I did though. If my husband and I had a problem we took it to each other and up front. I tried to be that way with the P-BF but obviously it didn’t work…he lied.

     Thanks for the links.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 11:20pm

163. LilOrphan says:

     LOL, OxD. Words are my stock in trade. Part of the time, anyway, they pay some of the bills. Now, if I can just get my heart and words to always align, we’ll be cooking.

     With the Wolf, I could *never* speak my mind straightforwardly. Never. Always felt like literally being strangled, the words wanting to come out but shoved down, choking. When I did get the nerve to address things it made my heart race. Could not figure that out. I’m no shrinking violet…well, I never used to be a shrinking violet. Used to be one of the most outspoken, brash, sometimes annoyingly self-confident women in any room. But some of that he took with him before 2001…and the rest just sort of followed out the door. Now I seem like that with everyone, namby-pamby, mealey-mouthed, scared of my own shadow.

     Think a lot of it was conditioning. Half the time I tried to talk to him it was shot-down in flames. Other times, it was ridiculed. Still others, it was ignored.

     So I learned not to say anything and get my words out elsewhere, in writing, or with others.

     What I want more than anything else in this period of recovery and healing is to return to that level of integrity, confidence and fearlessness, being one of the most straightforward women in any room. We have to first relearn how to hear our own voices, then trust them enough to use them. Regain our confidence and some feeling of a benevolent universe surrounding us. Not the naivete we had before about all of life being good and kind, but to walk again in trust with the world.

     Peggy : thanks for the links. Could never understand why, when things seemed absolutely fine, he felt compelled to ’stir the pot’ with some outrageous statement or accusation. Once I texted him jokingly about a bet we had, saying “I won, I won…” to tease him and he texted back some bizarre, mean, hurtful thing making fun of me. Out of left field. When later I asked him what he meant by it, he said: interpret it any way you wish.

     WTF? The nicer I was to him, the meaner he got. Finally, one night as he was falling asleep, I said, “Do you love me?” and he said, “Yes.” Then I said, “Do you hate yourself?” and he said “Yes.”

     I honestly believe that may have been a moment where he was telling the truth, being unguarded right before drifting off to sleep. There were so many signs he hated himself and sabotaged his own life and happiness, over and over again. Think I wanted to love him enough for both of us. To “fix” his soul, somehow – more than I was willing to love myself and probably, underneath it all, to keep from having to fix my own life — not selfishly, just subconsciously.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 7:51am

164. OxDrover says:

     It’s odd, my P-XBF seemed to have BOTH arrogance AND low self esteem. He grew up “poor” and felt that people with money looked down on people who were “poor.”

     I grew up “poor” but never realized I was “poor” or ever thought that people who had more things than we did thought themselves “better” or that I was financially inferior tol anyone else. So didn’t equate me with $$=good 0$=bad

     He was very bright but only had a formal education of highschool, though he had read and educated himself so that he could hold a good conversation on many subjects.

     However, because he didn’t have a “college degree” he had a low self esteem and if anyone with a college degree (a woman) knew something he didnt then he felt that they were “talking down” to him if they told him something he didn’t know.

     My late husband and I used to learn from each other continually, and it was fun…he had his scope of knowledge and I had mine. It was really fun to learn new things from each other–but the PBF resented me knowing anything he didn’t, even if it was in my “field,” like medicine.

     He would sometimes jump up and run outside in the middle of a conversation—apparently he had become so enraged that he thought he was going to lose control. When he came back inside in a few minutes, he was still angry and cross and would accuse me of “talking down” to him.

     I think in some ways he was “happy” when we were together, but his own demons and desire for control, domination, and the reassurance of his “manhood” with multiple partners sexually, and his internal rages kept him on the brink most of the time.

     I’m just glad and thankful that I didn’t marry this jerk before I wised up and realized that he had a harem on the side.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 11:56am

165. hummingbird1418 says:

     The person that I thought I knew was never that person. The decitful, lying man that I have discovered is not the man that I thought that I loved.

     He said that he cared for his mother and his siblings. He said that he had a strong faith in God. He was always preaching to others in our office about taking the high road and not getting involved in discussions about others (gossiping).

     He was never violent , but he did anger easily. When I didn’t do things the way that he wanted he would get angry and not talk to me for a day or two.

     I think that I may be co-dependent. I felt that I needed to take care of him. I was there for all his illnesses and hospitalizations. I made him meals, ran out to get things, and generally took care of his needs. Why would I allow someone to treat me so badly and still do so much for him? That is a question that I need to answer for myself.

     Thanks for all the feedback. This website has really helped me vent and read about others with similar stories.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 3:24pm

166. hummingbird1418 says:

     It is more difficult to recover from a relationship with a S than a normal breakup. The relationship was like a “house of cards” that you were building. All it took was a little breeze to take it down. A relationship built on lies and deceit will never survive.

     One partner is doing all the work. I was the one providing financial support (two jobs). I was the one providing the vacations, the car, the food, the medicine and the care. I was the one sitting in doctor’s offices and in hospitals while he was recovering from surgery and illnesses.

     He did make my Christmas special every year with a lavish display of gifts. I could never understand how he could afford this considering his financial issues, but I didn’t question it. Maybe he borrowed money from other woman for this extravagant display of affection.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 7:51am

167. LilOrphan says:

     OxD

     Same way…low self-esteem AND arrogance. What the heck?!? They say these disorders are caused by internal emptiness. He seemed to have a grudge against me long before we even met, when my dad would tell him good things about me he was annoyed and said that I probably wasn’t all that. My dad and I had just met when I was mid-20’s.

     He had no reason to be that insecure, except maybe that he wished he’d had more education, but he had taught himself all sorts of things and wasn’t dumb.

     hummingbird

     They present themselves as moral, ethical, one women kind of guys but….then the reality is so jarring, isn’t it?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 8:30am

168. Marie says:

     LilOrphan, mine was EXACTLY the same……low self esteem and arrogance, although he tried very hard to hide it. He fooled me into thinking that he was a nice gentle friendly guy, full of good morals. He said he wouldn’t cheat on me, though he did say that he had female “friends” that he talked to on a regular basis! He was full of contempt a lot of the time, and deep down was a very angry, jealous person. He would stop at nothing to get what he wants including back stabbing, and dissing his so called friends and members of his band. He was the total opposite of the man I thought he was. A huge disappointment in fact, with a shocking past that made me feel sick to the stomach when I found out the truth about him.

     It is hard to come to terms with the fact that he was one big fat LIE. The man that I loved never really existed. How are we supposed to move on from this? It is so difficult.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 10:39am

169. hummingbird1418 says:

     Marie:
     Maybe it’s the same man. Mine was very arrogant and acted so moral. He also has a lot of female friends who are constantly calling, asking advice, etc. He has these four mothers of his godchildren – the woman he is involved with is one of these.

     I am also so disillisioned by this man. I loved him but he is not the man that I thought that I knew.

     I think that he may be starting his games with our office assistant. She is married but has health issues and seems very vulnerable. He is flirts with her -”Hi Gorgeous”. She is now confiding issues that she is having with co-workers with him. Should I warn her? I have to work here for a long time yet.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 11:23am

170. alohatraveler says:

     HOlywatersalt,

     You treat him like a plant? I LOVE THAT! That is so funny! And you say the feelings are “gone.” YAY! Me too!!!

     So it does happen. I just wrote something about that yesterday… about when you fully and completely accept and see what they are, it changes your whole perspective on things. I keep mentioning the movie: TRUEMAN SHOW. It’s like that. I was a dramatic character playing my role perfectly and I didn’t even know it. Now it makes me laugh thinking of myself crying over love songs and stuff like that. What was I thinking!!!

     I am happy for you Holywater!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 1:26pm

171. neverneverland says:

     OMG. You know, I think there’s only one of these men and the rest is done with mirrors. Mine: low self-esteem coupled by this grandiose arrogance. Claimed to be a Christian, but didn’t ive the lifestyle. He was basically your average diva and demanded to be treated as though his life had priority over others’ lives. Again, multiple women “friends” (er … with benefits, of course) calling, as well as ex’s. I spoke with one of the ex’s who told me that during a romantic trip together, he was texting her, telling her that he missed her and was thinking about her. I couldn’t believe it. That was one of the most beautiful moments of our relationship, but finding this out has left a bitter taste in my mouth.

     I just cannot believe how many men there are out there that fit this profile.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 1:32pm

172. hummingbird1418 says:

     There should be a place to warn women (and men) about these people.
     I saw a link to peepsheet.com where you can add someone to a list as a conman, etc.
     Has anyone done this?
     I would have like to have read something about this man prior to getting involved with him.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 3:27pm

173. neverneverland says:

     hummingbird –

     The problem with peepsheet, dontdatehimgirl, and womansavers — all similar sites — is that you have a lot of people posting about their exes out of mere spite. There is a big difference between simple heartbreak and getting taken by a conman who breaks your heart. But people don’t seem to differentiate. I personally would love to see a *valid* site with data that is confirmed by the site owner that warns men and women against con games. Had i been the only “victim” I probably would not want to post about my ex, but there are quite a few who want to tell their tales. From what I understand, in 2000, several women got together and put up their own website about him after they found out about each other. My ex’s “main girlfriend” organized it and solicited input from all of the others she ran across. She took it down after a while — she’d moved on. I wish that she hadn’t. If only i’d seen it! This man has not changed one bit!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 3:54pm

174. holywatersalt says:

     The problem NEVERNEVERLAND is that most psycho stay under the radar.

     Read those sites– I swear most of the creeps on there are predators.

     Very few psychos are in the legal system. Few have that brand- but anything would help.

     Something that saved me from myself was keeping the Commandments, namely the one against Adultery.
     I know I sound insane when I say this, but if more women waited for marriage for sex (though I know, I know psychos wait and attack afterwards)–these guys would have less power.

     Mine gave up when he figured out there was no sex. I told him upfront- I am not interested in an affair. But that I had to is a HUGE RED FLAG, but I thought he just really likes me and he’s a guy and eccentric…. I really thought, he thought I was a friend.

     I also think at least a year engagement is a must.

     They do out themselves– we just need to apply pressure, set some standards see if they can follow them.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 4:43pm

175. OxDrover says:

     Neverneverland, I went on vacation to Colorado with my P-BF, and my son D and my best friend B went with us, and come to find out later that HE went to meet one of his girlfriends that was at the same event we were at. He even brought her to visit with us one evening after supper.

     I didn’t know this at the time, but looking back on it she sort of had that “cat with the carnary feathers” look that night. Some how just “uncomfortable”—but HE wasn’t, I think he thought it was the height of funny!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 4:44pm

176. LilOrphan says:

     hummingbird and neverneverland:

     Sure, those websites might appear to be stuff posted by angry ex’s. And well, we are angry exes – just for a different reason. LOL. That’s how they hook their next victims (read the heartless bitches site, a post on being “special” — none of us is “special” enough for a Psycho!)

     Nevertheless, put their names up. One, it’s cathartic. Two, I went looking for his name at those sites before deciding to see him this time around. Had it shown up even ONCE I would never have decided to go have lunch with him.

     Oh, yuck. Earlier I was thinking of the time we went to lunch and I asked him an innocent question and he YELLED at me at the Thai restaurant. I eyed my keys and thought of running. It had been SO LONG since anyone talked to me so disgracefully and he was such a hideous monster at that moment. I really did love him enough to put up with a whole helluva lot that wasn’t tolerable in the slightest, in retrospect. He deserved to be slugged.

     Anyway, do whatever makes YOU feel better and might result in just one person not falling for his crap. For my part, I’ve started a new blog and will address P/N/S issues as well as others. It’s much more high profile than any of my previous blogs. Do I expect fallout? Nah. He knows that everyone knows if something happens to me my half-blind dad will be over his apartment in a SECOND with a gun.

     All I am doing is telling the truth. All it takes for evil to triumph is for otherwise good people to do nothing. Can’t let that happen.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 4:45pm

177. holywatersalt says:

     OxD-

     Do they all do that? Mine loved those ruses. Get everyone together– I found out later every event I was invited to, was a set-up to taunt someone.

     I was clueless.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 4:49pm

178. OxDrover says:

     HWS,

     I don’t know if they “all” do that, but I have read enough times on here people posting that they have been “introduced” to the OW while the affair was going on.

     I know mine thought it was “cute” I think–turned out I knew SEVERAL of his OW, and X-GFs, his X-wife, and women he was wooing. He wanted to “be friends” after we “broke up” and I think that meant “sex whenever we can get together” like he had apparently had with other women, Nah, not me. I’m not interested in any casual sexual encounters with anyone…not my cup of tea. I sure don’t want to be one of his “harem”

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 5:05pm

179. neverneverland says:

     I can top all … one of his groupies showed up once with suitcase in hand, and he LET HER MOVE IN to our place. She was there for four days before she finally blew and tore out after she figured out that i was his main target (she didn’t have any money). He was also allowing groupies and co-workers he’d screwed or messed around with to be around me — to him, it was no big deal. He honestly didn’t see anything wrong with doing this. I soon learned that if he had a female “friend,” I could bet the farm that he’d screwed her or intended to.

     As for the sites, right now I’m answering questions from the IRS and that kinda takes precedence. They called today to see what I know about him. I am going to talk to the agent tomorrow after I consult with an attorney. I’m afraid that since I knew about this for two years and did nothing that I will also be prosecuted as well. The IRS are not too forgiving about people who know and don’t report … chances are I might get called to testify against him. In which case, putting him up on a website won’t be necessary.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 5:15pm

180. hummingbird1418 says:

     Orphan:
     I know how you feel. I can’t believe that I would let him order me around. He would say something like “put your things in your car” at the end of the work day and I would do it.

     He always wanted me to call him when I got home. I see that as controlling not concern.

     He said to me once “if you can’t trust me, who can you trust?”
     The answer should be anyone but him.

     I am checking out those other sites to see is he is posted.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 2 April 2008 @ 8:48pm

181. OxDrover says:

     The “magic moments” with psychopaths don’t just pertain to a lover or spouse…I realized that the “magic moments” with my P-bio father were that at first he treated me like an “adult” where my mother treated me like a little child–this was the “magic” that he held out to me as a fantasy, along with the travel and adventure, the chance to go to Africa and South America and photograph wild life–see the world, learn to fly airplanes. What kid from the sticks wouldn’t be lured by this? The GOOD that came of that though, was that I met my husband then, though it was 20 years later before we married.

     With my son, it was the magic he held for me when he was a little kid before he turned into the “monster” man–I wanted those magic moments of pride in my son, enjoyment in my son. FANTASY. They were gone with his adolescence.

     With my P-XBF, the magic fantasy he held out to me was that after loving my husband, I could find another “perfect love” again.

     All smoke and mirrors–all fantasy–all nothing but a dream, but I fell for them all hook line and sinker!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 11:58am

182. hummingbird1418 says:

     I think that is the lure. They seem too good to be true and they are. The S appears to be what we have been looking for in a significant other until his true self starts to emerge. They are such accomplished liars and can twist the truth to suit their needs.

     I think that an S must have told lies all their lives to be so skilled at it. Most people would hesitate or stammer if they were saying something that was untrue, but it just rolls off the S tongue. Are the traits apparent enough when a S is young that a parent or teacher might notice?

     I have read in Dr. Hare’s book that there is not a cure for S or P. Group therapy doesn’t work because of their skills in manipulation. So what is the answer? Avoid them at all costs?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 12:42pm

183. Beverly says:

     Holywatersalt. Just saw my exN today and guess what, like you, I had no feelings or thoughts about him whatsoever. Infact he was like a stranger and I looked at him and thought I dont know why I even gave him a second look. I really am over him too. I read your contribution dated 30 March and I realised that I am free too. It really does happen! Wow.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 1:15pm

184. OxDrover says:

     Well, as far as “when they are young”–my P son didn’t become apparent until adolescence when he would lie when the truth would fit better.

     The ONLY episode of him lying, when caught RED handed was at age 11 he stole money from me, and bought a radio he wanted when I couldn’t afford it…when the parents of the other child confronted him about his “missing” radio they came to me and we all sat down together, the two boys and the 3 parents. My son NEVER DID ADMIT that he was lying, and was defiant and angry…even ran away from home…but I never did see any other of this kind of behavior until he was in puberty when he became VERY defiant.

     I’m not sure if I missed anything, but because I was an ACTIVE parent, kept up with his teachers, his playmates and his friends etc. NO ONE observed anything except a child that excelled in school and was very pleasant to be around. I watched him for signs of theft etc. and never detected any until after he had apparently started his career of CRIME.

     He is skilled at lies, but, not as skilled as he thinks he is. He becomes frustrated if you don’t “buy into” his lies and becomes angry and nasty—even when he is trying to con you, and like Hare says, his right brain and his left don’t see the dichotomy between what he says and the emotional words he is using. If you don’t look too deeply, he can portray a very philosophical and moral thinker…but looking back through his letters, I also see that I WANTED to believe him at face value and by looking more deeply, I saw how SHALLOW his pronouncements were—there were also quite a few contradictions in them as well.

     I think if I had not had “malignant hope” and hadn’t been focused on the FANTASY BAIT I would have seen things more clearly earlier on. By staying focused on the fantasy, I didn’t see what I would have seen in YOUR son, because I was PREJUDICED for my own son.

     Because I was so emotionally invested in MY son, what should have been obvious, the contradictions, etc. were IGNORED by me. The RED FLAGS were THERE I just pushed them aside.

     I don’t think any of the Ps are good enough to NOT fly the RED FLAGS from time to time, I just think that we “project” the picture of them that we want to see onto their EVIL UGLY FACES….the way they project their faults and blame on to us.

     The problem is that we try to change the unchangeable, and they DO change the changeable (US!). The only way that we can break free is to give up trying to change them, and to change OURSELVES in relationship to them.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 1:18pm

185. OxDrover says:

     We posted over each other again, Beverly…LOL

     GLAD that you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel! Isn’t it WONDERFUL!!!!!!

     Congratulations and a dozen red roses to you from me! And a great big PAT ON THE BACK! AND A BIG CYBER ((((((((HUG))))))

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 1:20pm

186. Beverly says:

     Thank you OxDrover. I feel your hugs and your strength and wisdom, which is what I imagined when I went into surgery.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 1:29pm

187. neverneverland says:

     RE:

     “I think that an S must have told lies all their lives to be so skilled at it. Most people would hesitate or stammer if they were saying something that was untrue, but it just rolls off the S tongue.”

     I actually got to the point where I could detect when he was lying and/or pretending. There was a certain cadence in his voice. Now granted, it took about a year for this particular cadence to register with me.

     In the end, I finally heard his “real” speaking voice, when he was breaking up with me. It was dry, cold and very nonchalant … dead. That’s the way he really communicates. I’d heard that voice used with other people he was dismissing from his life, never thought I’d hear it myself. It’s interesting when the real person begins to emerge. You start to discover how little these people really feel in terms of empathy.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 1:30pm

188. OxDrover says:

     NEVERNEVER LAND,

     IT ISN’T ‘LITTLE EMPATHY’ IT IS NO, ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE–they are NOT capable of ANY empathy, it is all about THEM.

     That I think is the hardest part to get your head around, we can’t even begin to comprehend how a mouse thinks, or a snake, or a cow–we can only observe their behavior and sort of maybe possibly get an idea, but we can’t UNDERSTAND completely, and neither can we with the Ps–it is like they are a DIFFERNET SPECIES, or from another planet–the only LOOK HUMAN. Like something out of a sci-fi movie where the aliens take over the bodies of the humans—LOL that’s the closest I can come to it.

     At some point though, just like the aliens in human bodies, the REAL them starts to come out. They drop the mask when they no longer need you or want you, or they are in a rage, or are frustrated with you.

     Don’t ever trust one of them once you know what they are, any more than you would trust a rattle snake not to bite you, that is JUST WHAT THEY DO.

     BEVERLY—

     There has been some double-blind research done with praying for patients and there is a statistical difference in the recovery rate and speed of recovery for patients who were prayed for over patients who were not. My belief is that it is God, someone else might believe “positive energy”–what ever it is, it seems to work, and you are in my thoughts and prayers, as are all the other people on this web site–and even if it doesn’t do them any good (though I think it does) I know that it DOES GOOD FOR ME, gives me a feeling that I can HELP not only others, but by helping them, help myself.

     Speaking of helping others, I got around today to looking at Dr. Leedom’s web site for parenting the children at risk, and it is really a good one. So she is not only helping herself, but helping other parents in the same boat with her…and I think that in a nutshell is what “life is all about”—helping others, and at the same time, helping ourselves. I think that is why AA works much of the time, or NA or co-dependent groups. Because by helping others we reinforce the things that we need to keep in the forefront of our own brains.

     I also looked at M. L Gallager’s website recovering the job, and it is also a great site. There are a multitude of great sites for healing on the web and I think there is “something for everyone” whatever your beliefs, your spiritual awareness, or your stage of healing. I am grateful for the people who work on these sites and keep them up and running. I don’t have the computer skills to do so, but if I can contribute to several of them, I think I have done a little part, if not all that much. I am also able to pray for others and that gives me comfort and I hope does for them too.

     You are a strong woman, Beverly and I am so encouraged by seeing your strength in action as you heal from not only your P but from your other health concerns as well. After my summer of the tick fever, I can testify that the stress tears up our immune systems leaving us open to all kinds of health issues.

     God bless.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 April 2008 @ 2:10pm

189. greengirl says:

     Ah, relationship crack – Aloha, I love that phrase. It’s so accurate. I’ve actually used crack as a good analogy for how I feel about my ex. I know that getting together with him will mean I wind up broke, hurt, sick, miserable, alienated from my family and friends, and it will basically wreck my life. But I find the “high” so intoxicating that there may always be that temptation to do it anyway. Even if there one day that temptation isn’t there, the best policy is definitely to stay away from crack and not tempt fate! lol

     I experience the whole “snapshots” phenomenon when my ex was wooing me, too. It’s funny, other than with the ex, I had always been a very pragmatic person as far as relationships go. I am a very emotional person, but I’d never been one who believed in soul mates or fairy tale happy endings or what not. Well, once I got together with a guy who was purposely creating the whole “fairy tale” thing in order to hook me in, that belief changed.

     I remember thinking, “Ah, so THIS is what all those movies and songs are talking about, finally I get it.” I also relate to the “We’re going to be one of those couples everyone else wants to be like.” I believe one of my exes quotes was something like “We have the kind of love that most people only dream about it.” And he was right – except he failed to mention that most people only dream it because IT ISN’T REAL. Your descriptions of being in Hawaii w/ your Bad Man remind me of my ex too. The town I moved to so that I could live with him was absolutely, stunningly beautiful. I remember being out sometimes with him in these stunning natural surroundings, and it was all so amazing it was nearly overwhelming. I remember once saying to him that it all felt like a dream, we were so in love and in this place that was so beautiful. I guess when I was talking like this he must have figured that he really had me.

     I realized recently that I still occasionally find myself drifting in to “snapshot” mode. Occasionally now if I find myself in a situation where I am feeling down that the ex is not here and we’re not together, I’ve been trying to notice what I am thinking. Usually it’s something along the lines of “It would be so nice if he was here, because then he would (fill in supportive, caring or romantic action here.)” When I notice this I remind myself that actually, that is not reality. That is just my fantasy of who I thought he was being extrapolated in to a future that he is no longer a part of. Getting a handle on this has helped me get my head around missing him, and that I don’t actually miss the real him, I miss the pretend, fantasy him.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 12:50am

190. alohatraveler says:

     Greengirl,

     Thanks for your comments. I really don’t miss anything about BM anymore. Sure, it would be nice to meet a handsome Captain and sail off into the sunset but in this mental picture, it’s no longer the BM’s face. These days, I don’t even fantasize “if only” about him. I am not sure exactly when that changed for me. Maybe after my trip to Maui. Also, after that trip late last year, I have been in contact with two women via phone and email that were directly affected by him. We found eachother through Craigslist.

     Bad Man is such an evil character for me now… no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

     He is gone from that place in my heart but I think for as long as I live, I will never be able to think about Hawaii without remembering him.

     My former housemate that l lived with while I was in Maui happens to be visiting Maui right now. (She lives in Reno now of all places.) I asked her, “Are you enjoying all those koo-koo bird sounds in the morning?” We just crack up. I miss her so much. She honestly saved me from losing it while I was out there.

     Anyway, I don’t even “look” at my snapshots anymore. Well, maybe I do. I look at myself, crying over love songs at Home Depot and then I laugh. This just seems so ridiculous to me now. Oh well. Live and learn.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 2:38am

191. Ariadne says:

     Beverly,
     Congratulations on your indifference! lol That sounds so weird but that is really what it is. That’s great that you got to that point where he doesn’t affect you anymore. It really is a big step.

     Greengirl, you sound like you are at a good place too. It is really smart to analyze your own thoughts like that. Reading here really helps, doesn’t it? It helps us to give names to our own thoughts, to recognize what our minds are doing. That is the first step to changing our thought processes for the better.

     Even though S’s “giveaways” are individual, there is something that I have seen in a lot of different sociopaths when they are pretending. They kind of raise their eyebrows and open their eyes to look innocent, like someone who couldn’t possibly tell a lie. It is a face that people who are really innocent don’t need to make so it seems a little strange. It is almost a surprised look. I wonder if that is common. Has anyone else noticed that?

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     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 2:48am

192. hummingbird1418 says:

     green girl:
     That is absolutely true. I am a sceptic and never believed in fairy tale endings. I considered a relationship something you had to constantly work at.

     We talked about retiring someday and moving to Maine together. We would buy a house in a small town and live together there. Now I know that this was just part of the lies.

     The S does seem too good to be true, but eventually you start to see chips in their outer shell. I still have feelings for mine especially since I see him everyday at work.

     I enjoyed all the posts. It makes me feel less alone.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 6:37am

193. LilOrphan says:

     Ariadne :

     “Congratulations on your indifference!”

     Ha! Think you’ve just inspired me. The day that I actually become totally indifferent will become my second birthday celebration, every year for awhile. We’ll call it “Indifference Day.” When the actual date becomes a memory (because that IS the goal), I’ll only allow myself to think of this experience, and him, on July 4th, Independence Day, each year.

     Anyone wanna take the Indifference pledge to do likewise?

     I’m getting there. For years, he was my first and last thought every day, whether in each other’s lives or not. But this time, after only a few months, I often wake-up thinking of many other things, and people.

     Here’s to indifference.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 7:15am

194. Marie says:

     Ah, indifference………….yes, I want to take the indifference pledge LilOrphan, and I am working hard towards it, but feel that I have a bit further to go yet.

     Being caught up in the injustice of it all isn’t helping. I feel so conned by him, and angry with myself for believing his lies. Thinking he was a lovely guy when in fact he is really a nasty piece of work, and an ex con of the worst kind.

     We don’t have Independence day here in UK, but it is a good day to celebrate ‘indifference day’. I’m hoping that by the time it comes around this year I will be ready to celebrate. I would give anything to get him out of my head.

     Beverley, many congratulations on achieving indifference with your ex. Brilliant! I think I would freak out if I saw my ex right now, it makes my stomach turn just thinking about him. You have done so well to get to this point. I admire your strength and determination.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 9:52am

195. LilOrphan says:

     Ugh…just saw him on the road, again, passing by. He never used to drive down this particular stretch of road – the road he knows I tend to use because it takes me straight to work and home again without having to take the freeway.

     I had to come home to pick something up before going in to work, but frankly, I was also uneasy with him in this area. He must be seeing someone here because he lives 20 minutes or so away. Probably he OW who was around when he was with me, I think, who was also from this town).

     But…guess what? I had NO emotional reaction, save annoyance. No feeling of missing him. That has to be the first time!

     Maybe indifference day is not that far off?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 11:04am

196. hummingbird1418 says:

     I hope to achieve Indifference Day.

     When a real relationship ends, there are good times as well as bad times to remember. In this relationship, I don’t even know which experiences were real for not. I have no idea what he felt for me if anything. I find myself second guessing everything that I did over the past four years.

     I wonder how I could have been blinded so long by his charm and cunning. Why didn’t I suspect something was very wrong long before this?

     There will never be closure in this relationship. Even if the S attempts to explain himself, would any of it be the truth?
     It will be difficult moving on and trusting again.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 11:18am

197. neverneverland says:

     I would love to feel true indifference, to be honest. But I think that will be a long time coming. Right now, all I feel is anger and the sense of being cheated — cheated out of time, love, and money, all of which were given to him in generous proportions. This morning, I finally came clean with my mother as to where all my savings went. She kept asking my why I didn’t have the money to do such-and-such, and I made up an excuse. But now she knows, about all of the “loans,” the bills of his I paid, the groceries that I bought from an expensive upscale market because he insisted on it, the dinners out he insisted that I pay for, etc.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 11:40am

198. OxDrover says:

     Sometimes the “indifference” (which is actually the opposite of love–hate is NOT the opposite of love, INDIFFERENCE is.) comes on gradually and then one day you have that AH HA effect and realize it has been there for a while. Or, you feel that you have acheived it and then get a small twinge that tells you that you are not QUITE there but getting there.

     As long as you harbor the hate and the anger, you are still renting them room in your head.

     After my divorce years ago (I loved him totally, and he wasn’t a P just a confused man) I was devastated, and it was about 18 months later that I was playing with the kids in the yard and we were squirting each other with a water hose, and “fighting” over it and putting it down each other’s pants and shirts, and rolling in the mud and laughing like crazy people and it HIT ME–WE ARE HAPPY! At that point I realized that I had HEALED. I was no longer angry at him, no longer sad for him, no longer grieved for him, no longer wanted him. No longer wondered if I could have done anything different.

     My X-BF was a much shorter relationship, but I was sucked in by that P DEEPLY in to the fantasy, so when I kicked him to the curb, it HURT…but when I saw him (and I kind of dreaded it) it was indifference.

     With my P son, Ihave no doubt now that I am at the indifference stage. I no longer wonder about him being healthy, sick, injured or anything–I just really don’t even have any interest in him.

     I am generally NC with mom, and at first that was difficult and painful, now it is peace-giving–and though I do from time to time have to interact with her verbally (or even face to face at times) it doesn’t give me that gut-wrenching physical pain in my mid section any more, and though I am still kind of disappointed and sad about it, it isn’t deep grief any more. I did have a bit of a twinge the other day when I thought about the court hearing on the 16th of this month that I have to do–but you know–I may not be absolutely 100% indifferent to her, but I am approaching it rapidly. I have no desire to tell her off any more, no desire to try to explain myself, no desire to please her, and actually could give a hoot what she thinks about me.

     I don’t feel a need to find out from the neighbors how she is doing and if they ask me, then I say “fine as far as I know” which is a true answer.

     I don’t feel an empty spot where our relationship was–even the times it felt good—don’t feel a need to have anything at all to do with her. When this court thing is over, all communication can be handled by e mail or via my son C who is her “watch dog” to keep her from sending money to the P-son in prison–so communication will be very little and face to face not at all unless I run into her at wal mart or something and that isn’t likely.

     I feel more like an independent adult capable of making my own decisions now than I have ever felt in my life. Many times I would turn to my mother for advice on “sticky” situations at work in dealing with unreasonable bosses or co-workers, or lots of things, but I see now that I AM CAPABLE OF MAKING MY OWN DECISIONS and that my own decisions are pretty good. I don’t need her “reassurance”—and that is a liberating feeling.

     For a while during the “crazyness” I would ask my son D for his advice because he wasn’t as “crazy” about all this as I was and more rational, but I don’t even feel the need to do that any more.

     It feels more like I have been emancipated than anything. LOL

     Hummingbird, you will regain confidence in your own ability to decide who to trust again, it will just take some time, and thought, I think.

     I FELT SO STUPID, how could someone as bright as me be THAT STUPID? Well, I am human. Humans do things for emotional reasons not necessarily logical ones. It was NOT logical, it was emotional. Now, I have confidence that I will NOT ALLOW my emotions to override my GOOD SENSE. I know how to spot the RED FLAGS, and I will NOT ALLOW MYSELF to ignore them again.

     I have TRUST IN MYSELF now—I AM CAPABLE. My God how liberating that feeling is! I don’t have to PLEASE anyone else about my decisions. If someone doesn’t like the way I am, or wants to change me, they can kiss my rosy red butt. I am more secure in myself now than ever. I have a conscience and will not take advantage of others or be mean to them, but I will EXPECT and DEMAND that others in my “circle of trust” be courteous and respectful to me, or they can GET THE HELL OUT OF MY LIFE. I will never again–NEVER allow anyone to abuse me again. ANY sign of lies, maliciousness or guile in someone makes them someone I DON’T need close to me.

     I have seen not only remarkable growth in myself, but in many of the bloggers here as we have held each other’s hands on this journey of learning and healing. You have each been a comfort to me in more ways than I can say. Thanks to you all.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 12:51pm

199. neverneverland says:

     Oxdrover –

     I am conflicted on the whole anger/hate thing. My therapist has told me that it’s normal that I’ve moved into this stage now, and that if I don’t feel the anger and experience it, it will come out in other aspects of my life. For example, I’ll take it out on the man in my next relationship, or I’ll kick the dog, or treat my friends poorly, whatever. However, that said, I don’t like feeling anger! I really am not an angry person. I don’t like holding grudges. It goes against everything that I know that I am as a person. At the same time, I’m powerless to the anger right now.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 1:04pm

200. romanticfool says:

     Snapshots, yes, exactly.

     The day my X left my daughter came to help me keep together. Physically, even before his betrayal I could barely walk. But the first thing I did was take down the portrait sketch of him I had done early in the relationship. It was very flattering and really did look just like him. I took it out of the frame and tore it into tiny little bits. Later my daughter admitted she had fished the bits out and taken them down to the river to throw in. He was the only father she had ever known, after crying crocodile tears over her (good actor, tears up a will) he never called her again, never sent her even a Christmas card. One of the things I dislike about him the most, hurting my daughter.

     One of the first things he asked for was that portrait, he offered to buy it. How N can you get? I just said I didn’t have it any more, and let him think whatever he wanted. He was smart enough not to ask me why.

     I too was worried about if I ever saw him again…I built my entire world around him, even a year and a half later it’s still difficult picking up the pieces. But I ran across an audition he had made on YouTube. Hahahahaahaha! I watched him posture and pose the exact same way he always did, and thought, dang, I was WITH that man? How embarrasing. Was he really that bad when I was with him. The answer is yes. I’m not sure I have attained real indifference, I have that spot bookmarked, and go look at it when ever I get feeling too down. Always makes me feel better. He used to be cute, at 49 he just looks like an old strung out dopper, still acting like he’s 21.

     I don’t think I would feel indifferent if I saw him on the street. He’s dangerous. I would have to lie and pretend I didn’t know about the drugs, didn’t know he was killing me, even though it’s impossible not to know it, since I’m still walking, talking and look 20 years younger. But I woudn’t feel any love for him. That was over the minute I found out what he was. I’d already given him one chance, which was a mistake. No way was he staying even on the fringes of my life.

     I’m not indifferent to the relationship, that’s going to take me a long time. Getting rid of all those snap shots, well I was a busy little photographer! But also that first week, I removed all of the picture of him and burned them. If there was an animal or person in the shot I wanted to keep, I just removed him digitally, so it looks like he was never there. Which in one sense is soooo true.

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     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 1:25pm

201. alohatraveler says:

     Wow… you digitally removed him… as if he was never there.

     This kind of sounds like :Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. HAHA!

     And what about Beverly.. she treats her ex like a “plant.”

     You all crack me up. I love to find humor in all this because I know it is painful.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 1:45pm

202. Beverly says:

     Marie, once you have worked through and felt the feelings of anger and injustice of being conned, healing will come, back to a state of indifference, which basically means they have no connection to you anymore. I have done alot of burning of letters and photos. I have kept one photo only. As far as I am concerned he was a scratch on my record, but I am further along the music now and I dont get stuck in the experience of it all.

     Looking back, its amazing what we invested in people who just werent worth it. I have learnt alot about not investing my precious energy in people and situations that arent genuine.

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     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 1:54pm

203. righteous woman says:

     Indifference – Is that like having an old-old boyfriend (a non S that we dated earlier in life, not a love, just someone we dated) and hearing something about him and having interest, but a limited reaction, like we are talking about what kind of sod a person used in their front yard for their new beautiful green grass?

     I have interest in the S so I can receive the monies I am owed from arrearages in child support. I still have interest in his doings, because he is working towards being a public personality…but claims he has no money. When he has contacted me, and tried to get me to have compassion for him for any circumstance…I don’t. I literally have no compassion. Indifference? I am still not there, because if he ever becomes successful, it will benefit me. When I am paid in full, I think that is the day that I will loose whatever remaining interest exists.

     I am still dealing with the damage to my self esteem and I am working towards adjusting my attitudes about myself. One of the ways to do this is to do a daily affirmation when my brain drifts to his insults, “His opinion is not important and doesn’t create my world, I create my world”. I am feeling better everyday. My goal, of course, is to have the outlook I had at 16, with the energy, hope, and self confidence that made me -me…with the wisdom, knowledge and maturity I have now. The two got separated by the S – and I didn’t realize it until it was too late. Being able to make that definition is a part of healing too.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 2:19pm

204. romanticfool says:

     aloha, that man was so “not there” that he shouldn’t have reflected light. I’m surprised he showed up in the mirror! But, O does he love his mirror!

     I have a few odd photos now, when he was with an animal that I wanted to keep the image of and in a position I can’t cut him out without a lot of work (he’s not worth it) So I just blurred him. You can tell there was a person there, but that’s all.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 2:31pm

205. OxDrover says:

     NEVERNEVERLAND,

     Yes, your therapist is right, you must FEEL the anger, not suppress it. You can’t get rid of anger by suppressing it, it is still there. However, as you heal, the anger will go away, the bitterness will go away, but you have to work at it.

     I liken it to a big pile of dog poo in the middle of the living room floor. If you pretend it is not there, (suppress it) and say, lay a piece of carpet over it, it will STILL STINK–it is still there but you can’t see it is all.

     However, if you acknowledge it is there, that it stinks and it is a mess, and clean up the dog poo, shampoo the carpet under it, and go on with your life, it is GONE.

     It is failure to acknowledge that the anger is there that is a problem.

     Unfortunately for me, not only did I suppress the anger, I didn’t even make an attempt to house break the dog and it continually crapped in the floor and I just laid another piece of carpet over it until the pile got so high I couldn’t get into the room! LOL What an awful analogy but I am sorry to say it is a true one!

     When I taught others grief resolution I reminded them that the anger you feel at your deceased loved one is NORMAL AND NATURAL and that you should not say to yourself “well, he didn’t mean to die and leave me here with 5 kids and no job” (which is logical and rational) but the anger you FEEL is an emotion, a FEELING, and it doesn’t have to be rational. But you MUST feel it, go through it, you can’t go around, or over, or under it but must go THROUGH it and feel that feeling. That is a natural and normal part of the grief resolution that leads to acceptance.

     People who DWELL on the anger and bitterness and don’t get past it, though, are not successful in dealing with it either.

     There is an old Cherokee story about a man who said that “inside each of us are two wolves, a bad one and a good one and they are always fighting.” His son asked him “which wolf wins father?” and the father replied, “The one you feed the most.”

     I have felt such intense anger at my mother for what she did to me, in enabling my P son, in the disrespect she showed me, and in many things about our relationship, and I have felt such intense anger at my P-son for the things he has done to our family in his greed and hate for us all. My anger was “justified” by everything that they did, but the “wrath” which is closely held, nurtured bitter anger that could have flown from that JUSTIFIABLE ANGER would only have caused pain and ugliness in me.

     I acknowledged my anger, and that it was JUST anger, I went through the anger, felt the pain of it, and the fact that I was powerless to undo what they had done, to change the past, but at the same time, I did not “feed that wolf” with thoughts of revenge, bitter thoughts, I stopped myself from going into the “wrath” that is destructive to ME.

     The Bible says “be angry and sin not” and it also says “let not the sun go down upon your wrath”—wrath is not the same as “anger”–but a much more intense, hateful emotion along with a desire for vengeance and retribution, that causes you to FOCUS upon those bad feelings, not just be “angry.”

     Let’s say you stole something from me, and I am “justifiably angry” at you—but then because I am angry, all I can focus on is the fact that you stole something precious to me, and I want to come burn your house down, and I hate you, and I plot and scheme and think on how I would like to cut you into pieces and hack you to death. That is WRATH, not anger.

     The anger is NOT caustic, it is what it can lead to (the intense wrath) that is caustic and hurtful to the older of the emotions. As long as I don’t actually cut you up, my wrath has not hurt you, it has only hurt me by turning the entire focus of my life into hateful nasty bitter thoughts. Does that make sense?

     If because you stole something from me I turned you in to the police and they arrested you that is JUSTICE. (Not revenge) If I go burn down your house because you stole something from me that is REVENGE. (I was angry/wrathful at you, and I “sinned” because I used that anger/wrath as an excuse to do something bad myself, even more bad than what you did in the first place.

     The Ps seem to me to have more WRATH than just ordinary “anger” and they harbor it seemingly forever, and as it seethes in their minds, it becomes bigger and bigger…that is what I DON’T want to do to my own soul. Though I think most people would say I had “plenty of justification” for the things that have been visited upon me by my P-son and others, but that would only make me like them, and that is not what I want out of life.

     I hope I have explained it where you can understand what I am talking about, if not, Aloha can “interpret” LOL

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 2:46pm

206. hummingbird1418 says:

     Neverneverland:
     I did the same thing. I pretty much wiped out my savings giving this man money for his mortgage, his water bill, his electric bills, medicine, house repairs, and a car.

     I have been asked by my children why I am working a second job and I too have made up excuses. It will be very difficult telling them what a fool their mother has been.

     I have a lot of credit card debt and also have car payments on a car that I will have trouble selling for what I paid for it.

     All their reasons for the money seemed plausible at the time. I felt so sorry for him having to pay child support for a child that wasn’t even his. Now I wonder if that is even the reason that his wages are garnished.

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     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 2:55pm

207. OxDrover says:

     Hummingbird and neverneverland, and all,

     The SHAME WE FEEL for having been conned is, I think, part of their “ammunition” to keep us quiet–

     WHY should WE feel “shame” (that there is a defect in US) when it is them that has the defect of using and abusing and conning others? We may have been conned, but we didn’t do the CONNING. We didn’t commit the immoral/illegal act, THEY did? Yet, we assume the shame/blame for being lied to and believing the lie.

     My enabling mother believed (i guess) the same lies that I believed for a while, yet SHE doesn’t feel ASHAMED for being conned, in fact, she thinks it excuses all her hateful acts toward ME, because she was conned and believed their lies and treated me poorly, so it is not HER “fault” but theirs.

     Of course they believe that it is all MY fault for them going to jail because if I hadn’t persecuted them it wouldn’t have been “necessary” for them to steal and attempt to murder my son C–so, yes, as my DIL wrote to her daughter after her arrest “Remember, never forget, that OX is a nasty piece of work.” SHE WAS IN JAIL for felony charges and I AM A NASTY PIECE OF WORK? She stole from my mother, tried to kill my son, but it was okay because (as she said) “I did some things wrong, but I WASN’T THE ONLY ONE.”

     My x-DIL FELT NO SHAME– yet she is the one who did the crimes. WHY should I be ashamed and lie to my family and friends to cover up my SHAME? I refuse to do it. Sure, I felt it too, but NO MORE–STOP!!!!!! I will not DO IT!

     I have nothing to be ashamed of. I did not lie, I did not steal, I did not try to kill anyone. I did not cheat on my husband. Sure, I tried to do the impossible, protect my mother from herself and the Ps. Keep them from stealing from her. I went half way crazy thinking I could protect her from their influence when she didn’t want to be protected from THEM, she wanted to be protected from my influence, my interfeirence and my “control’–I became an ENABLER, just like her. I tried to do something that she was responsible for, taking care of herself. But feeling strongly that she was being drugged (and I still think that) I felt RESPONSIBLE for her predicament.

     Shame is a feeling of being defective, and wanting to hide that defect from others. WE compare what we ARE vs. what we SHOULD BE. and the message is “I should have XYZ, and I didn’t so, therefore I must be defective.” That “tape” in our heads is WRONG, and by recognizing that WE should not be ashamed of ourselves I think we can stop that feeling.

     It takes WORK on our part to say to ourselves, “I am a caring and kind person, and I loaned/gave John money because I (felt sorry for____ or fill in the blank reason here) him. HE TOOK ADVANTAGE OF ME, and my kindness to get money from me. I made a mistake, but HE IS DEFECTIVE to turn a kindness into a con job. I AM NOT DEFECTIVE, HE IS.”

     I felt ashamed that MY SON not a “success” and yet I didn’t blame myself for his actions, nevertheless, I felt SHAME that my son was a criminal and in prison. HE is the one who should feel shame, not me. Of course he has NO shame, but he is the DEFECTIVE one, not me. I wasn’t a perfect parent, no one is, but everyone who knew me thought that I did the best job that I could do, I cared, and I INVESTED MYSELF and my energies into giving my kids a good home and a moral education. He didn’t follow my modeling to become a thief, or a murderer, he didn’t follow my modeling to abuse his friends and my friends, and his family. He didn’t follow my model to brag about how heinous his crime was, worse than the police even knew.

     I modeled responsible behavior, truthfulness, respect for others’ feelings, hard work, education , family values, and love for my kids…inperfectly, allbeit, but as well as I could. Sometimes I am sure I was too harsh on them, and other times too lenient, but they were never abused, or allowed to run wild, or blame someone or something else for their bad behavior.

     Knowing all these fact, I still felt shame, even though not blame, but the SAME was a FEELING, and I had to work hard to over come this feeling, and I think in the most part I have. I no longer give evasive answers to people who ask where my kids live (if they know about Patrick, I don’t volunteer information) but I no longer lie and say “He lives in Texas and works for the State of TExas” which is technically correct, he is incarcerated in Texas and they make the inmates work, so technically he WORKS for the state of Texas. LOL

     If someone asks about Patrick I tell them, he’s incarcerated for life,, he took the wrong path and chose to be a criminal. It broke our hearts, but we have lived through the grief and go on with our lives.

     I know there are people who will “automatically” believe I must have been a bad parent if my kid ended up in prison, but it doesn’t matter any more what people think. I am not ashamed for me. Sad that my son took that course, but I did all I could to prevent it. I’m not “proud” like I wish I could have been at “my son the doctor” (or whatever his chosen professon was) I AM proud of the GOOD man who is his brother, and I AM PROUD of my adoptive son, and I AM proud of a lot of things, but I will not be ashamed any more.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 April 2008 @ 7:24pm

208. neverneverland says:

     hummingbird1418 –

     I don’t know what state you live in, but wages are garnished for child support because it is proven conclusively that person is the father of the child. If there is any doubt as to paternity, the court typically will not order it without conclusive proof. Your guy’s been through DNA testing. He is the father. The law doesn’t “slip up” against innocents like that. Sorry to be the one to break it to you. I had to tell my mother last night where all the money went. I cried and cried and apologized for being a stupid daughter to her. I want her to know that whatever she and my dad left in trust for me, including our land and commercial farm, will be kept safe from predators like my ex. But how can I do that when I have made such a bad decision?

     Oxdrover –

     Part of me DOES feel shame! I think it’s because had you asked me before, “How is it possible to con a person out of this much time, money and energy?” I would have told you, “Well, you’d have to have a pretty stupid woman!” Your garden variety society doesn’t understand how subversive these men are, how they winnow their way in and make it impossible to say “no” to them. Also, he is well known. His “fans” would never believe that someone capable of writing all of those beautiful love songs could possibly do anything wrong — to them, he can do no wrong just because he’s famous, and that’s that! If I told anyone or came forward, I would be the one who was blasted apart, even though there’s piles of evidence (e.g., other women and their stories) to corroborate. To them, we’d just be a bunch of bitter hags. That’s why I’ve remained quiet thus far. Plus, I think that once it’s revealed that he’s bilking the U.S. government, people will see what a huge sham he is. It’s going to take a while, but they’ll get him in the end. I intend to give them as much information as I can for them to make sure that he’s accountable for each penny he earned.

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     Saturday, 5 April 2008 @ 9:33am

209. hummingbird1418 says:

     Neverneverland: I live in Maryland and was told that if a man acts in the capacity of a father when the family is living together that he can be made to pay child support.

     I still feel hurt and angry (at him and at myself). Will this end and what will come next? I don’t think forgiveness since he wouldn’t ask for it because he won’t see what he did as wrong. I am sure that there were many others before me who have been equally duped.

     Oxdrover: I dread telling my children what has happened to my savings. This was money that should have gone to them eventually. Now all I have are empty promises and credit card debt.

     I liked what you wrote about not feeling shame. These S (conmen) should be the ones to feel shame. Of course, since they are without a conscience that will not happen.

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     Saturday, 5 April 2008 @ 10:34pm

210. Genevieve79 says:

     Yikes:

     QUOTE FROM ALOHA TRAVELLER: “asked me to be his exclusive girlfriend and told me he was “seriously considering” me as a “potential life partner” after only a few short weeks!”

     Ditto – my ex did the same thing.
     Oh red flags, how brightly you do shine in rear view mirrors…… xxx

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     Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 8:45am

211. Genevieve79 says:

     QUOTE FROM BEVERLY: “I had no closure, he conveniently did a runner when I closed in on him for questions and answers and then gave a message via a friend, saying he had found someone else. Any answers please?”

     Just like what happened to me. I closed in on my ex too, I became non compliant you see, I asked him where the hell we were going and essentially gave him an ultimatum because I was dreadfully unhappy, my life was at a standstill and I wasn’t prepared to live that way anymore.
     He retaliated in the only way he knew how – like a coward, ended us by text, never wanted to see me again, knowing full well that the silent treatment hurts me more than anything because I am such a big communicator. So not only did he choose to jump ship he stuck the knife in too.
     I have no answers Bev’ other than they are cowards and that their cruelty to us says everything about them and was not our fault. All we have to do is work on believing that, something I’m trying to do at the moment.
     Hugs xxx

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     Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 8:54am

212. Matt says:

     Genevieve79:

     “Oh red flags, how brightly you do shine in rear view mirrors”

     Think Francis Scott Key was talking about a socipath when he wrote the “Star Spangled Banner” (“Oh, the banner yet waved…”)?

     I, too, became noncompliant. The first time he broke up by text, I should have given him the heave-ho. Texting and emails are such a ball-less, weasely way of communicating. Hide while you do your dirty work.

     After 15 months of S and his busy little fingers on the key board, I now have the policy. No texts. No emails. If you have something substantive to say to me — you say it in person or on the phone. Caso cerrado.

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     Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 12:01pm

213. learnthelesson says:

     I contend (sadly and embarrassingly) that I could win at a game of THUMB WAR with anyone on the planet….I engaged in texts back and forth with him the final year – that would have you all thinking what in the world was she thinking…

     I called it textland vs the realworld…. I once was so damn tired of it that when he sent a text I returned it with this “Return to sender….Verizon Msg. 4572…Receiver activated blocking service…following message undeliverable…”HIS ORIGINAL TEXT”

     Creative, huh…. well he bought into it at first and I had peace for a while and then he must have called verizon to find out that wasnt possible..and texted…Good one, almost got me! Of course by then I wrote LOL….and the saga went on and on and on….. til I got the courage to stop responding and stop trying so damn hard to change a the wiring of another.

     They just fundamentally dont know how to be in long term relationships..Its a lack of so much in interpersonal skills, and self-discipline and compassion and empathy and understanding and a willingness to learn and grow from within…. they get the selfish part and they get the protect themselves at all costs part…but they dont get the basics in loving themselves with respect and trust, letting alone loving others with respect and trust as well as being honest and open and vulnerable. They just are missing core, key elements in commitments to themselves and others… they live by their own rules…in their own world. Jump on board or jump overboard….. if you jump overboard…and they throw you the lifepreserver — pass — and swim to shore youself! Sociofree!!!

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     Tuesday, 19 May 2009 @ 12:13pm

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