He had taken to bed several years before and was literally contracted to where he could no longer stand. He had become morbidly obese to the point that along with his legs being contracted to the point he couldno longer stand (they were literally bent into position) I had tomake house calls to take care of his medical needs. (I am a Registered Nurse Practitioner, now retired)

I began to notice bruises of the wife, and along with his over bearing attitude began to suspect what was going on. His wife was literally “cowed” around him. One day I came into the house just as he threw a metal bed pan at her–with great accuracy I might add.

I began to talkk to the wife and she opened up somewhat about the 30 years or more of abuse she had suffered at this man’s hands, and still continued to “dance attendence” upon him like a slave. He was retired military and I am sure he provided the only income into the home.

One day I went there and the wife was particularly bruised up, and I suggested that since he could no longer get up to chase her that when he went into one of his rages that she go to the door of his room and say, “I can see you are upset “john” and I will give you time to calm down, I will be back in one hour” and then for her to close the door and leave. If she came back and he was still enraged (which I imagined he would be) she could say, “I see you are still upset, “john” and I will be back in 2 hours when you have had time to calm down.” Etc and increase the times between coming back until he saw that he no longer had the fear factor over her.”

Of course this poor woman did not do any of this and continued to be abused until the man died and the doorway had tobe widened to get his body out of their home.

I would have called the police, but in that situation, that time, and that place, she would have denied that there was any abuse. Only if she had wanted help, and have seen that she had other options would it have done any good. I have often thought of that poor woman, who was so traumatized that like a gazelle in the clutches of a lion, she had failed to even realize she could struggle, or that at that point in time, she had the control of the situation if she would only exercise it.

The woman who called for “help” I think was summed up fairly well by Eternal student as one that “seeks” help but really wants to play a game of “yes but…” YOu give a suggestion about how she can get out, and her reply is always “Yes, but I have no money” or “yes, but…..” The game ends when you can no longer give suggestions that she had not negated with the “yes, but…” Her reward in the situation is that she “wins” by eliminating all possibility of her actually leaving, and “she tried”—

A good Example given in Eric Berne’s “Games People Play” of the “Yes but…” game is the woman who wanted to become a professional dancer, but was afraid to do so, so she played “Yes, but…” I would be a professional dancer except for my husband. If you suggest that she could still do so and take a class in dancing or dance in a community program, she might say, “All well and good, yes, but ….I have to take the kids to soccer practice on Mon,, Wed and Friday…” and if you say, well your husband said he would take them, and she responds “Yes, but he works so hard at work I couldn’t do that to him.” Etc.

Next time you are talking to someone who wants you to give them ideas how they can do anything, and every idea is followed by “Yes, but….” you have tapped into a “game” not a real request for help or ideas.

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Wow. Another rotten story. This is so sad for those children.

I think that one thing that helps with coping with the antics and lies of a Sociopath is to accept that this IS what they do. Then, let nothing surprise you. Now that you know what she is, you can try to take the emotion out of it. Think of that show SURVIVOR… everyone gets so upset when they get voted off and lied to but that is what the game is. Maybe if you frame it that way in your mind, you can get over the shock of things quicker and keep your cool in court. You don’t want to be losing it with upset when you have someone saying you are crazy or whatever horrible things they are saying.

Of course, I know it still is painful and outraging… I am just offering a potential coping strategy. Perhaps this might help someone? That’s all I hope for now.. to help someone.

Aloha… E.R.

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I am sorry that you have had to go through this absolute hell on earth in an effort to help these children. You deserve much more than you are obviously getting now, but hopefully your pain will result in some good for these obviously needy children who deserve better than they apparently have gotten from their mother.

It IS amazing the lengths psychopaths will go to gain “control” and “drama”—and it is like a shark’s feeding frenzy. Unfortunately, too, sometimes counselors and even judges fail to see through this “display” and see the REAL situation for what it is.

In an effort to “reunite the family” sometimes professionals go overboard in allowing visitation with abusive parents. I hope your husband’s sibs have the fortune to obtain a good caseworker who will opt for NO visitation from this disordered woman.

Good luck to you and God bless you for your efforts on behalf of these children.

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“A. borrowed a copper kettle from B. and after he had returned it was sued by B. because the kettle now had a big hole in it which made it unusable. His defence was: “First, I never borrowed a kettle from B. at all; secondly, the kettle had a hole in it already when I got it from him; and thirdly, I gave him back the kettle undamagedâ€�….We might…say: “A. has put an ‘and’ where only “either-orâ€� is possible.â€�

If you weren’t bought with the first out burst, then comes the second outburst, then the third, the fourth, the fifth..if it still doesn’t work, it ends in either telling you you are unthoughtful, inconsiderate, a liar..etc. They may first try sweet talking you, then crying, then when it still isn’t working, angry fits of rage. The outbursts usually are in consecutive order, and don’t support the previous statement, or do they make sense. The out bursts or more or less to take you in a different direction, ESPECIALLY if you point out an error to them, or they are just trying to wear you out..they run you around in so many damn circles you don’t even remember the first nonsense statement they made. They are great at filibustering. The women sociopaths seem to really love to play this game, and from my experience, seem to really love shock factors more than anything just to get a response. My mother in law at one point told me her husband was molesting her daughter. I asked her if she was sure, and if so, she needed to leave. She then told me she couldn’t do that because she wouldn’t have health insurance. So I said, I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure you can temporarily do without the health insurance if this is really happeneing, and get the hell out with your daughter. She then told me, well, he isn’t. She just thought he was..>.. > > . > > ?!?!?!?!? After five years of the absolute worse of hell, the husband this past year ended up in jail twice for false accusations of abuse (because he told her he was going to divorce her, so she actually bruised herself, and had him put in jail for it), and now my husband and I have custody of his brother and sister.. now that they have been with us, a lot of things are coming out, along with her being a severe alcoholic, a perscription drug abuser, to it being that she was the one who was sexually innappropriate with the my husband’s sister (she is 12) and his brother. She put my father inlaw, brother and sister inlaws through absolute hell, and I can’t even begin to explain the foul and vicious lies that have come out of her mouth about her own family to others. She is also now spreading vicious and horrible stories about my husband and I since the kids have been living with us. If I had known that we were going to be going through this type of garbage.. I’m not so sure I would of went through with marrying my husband. I can’t even believe that people believe the lies she is spreading, especially when we opened our home to my husband’s siblings, and are taking care of them, helping them get some type of normalicy to their lives and not getting anything in return for it. Instead of thankyou, we are only getting crap and it’s being made as if we were the bad ones, or the ones who are doing something wrong. And she is coming out as the helpless victom.
I think the women sociopaths are more dangerous than the male sociopaths because they are suppose to naturally be the more sensitive, empathetic, and timid ones. The trama that this woman has put this family through, and gotten away with, is ridiculious. I have NEVER wished punishment on someone so much that I believe this woman deserves. I am just hoping that when this goes to court, some type of justice will be served. I can not wait to have her removed from my life, the best part is, because none of this has come out yet, she has managed to attain visitation rights on weekends with the daughter and wednesday’s (which only lasted a few visits, each visit ended with the daughter calling us hysterically crying to come pick her up…..which of course ended in MORE lies from the mother)..so we have to still have communication with her. I am just hoping and praying that we can soon have NO CONTACT EVER again with this woman. I feel so badly for my husband that he has this vicious snake for a mother.

I really didn’t mean to write this much, I could go on and on with everything that she is doing, has done.. I couldn’t believe that someone could be so ruthless and not have a conscience. You so badly want to believe that they have some sort of good intention, but the only intentions they have are self serving….. it doesn’t matter who they mow over. That has been the most difficult thing for me and my husband to digest. Once you understand that, it is almost as though you are going through the grieving process of the death of a loved one…
Anyway, again..I can’t believe I wrote all this, but I suppose I needed to get it out.

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Yeah. I get what you are saying. I think you were right about that caller too. And I can kind of tell with some posts that it’s just a long list of “he did” “he did” “he did” but my instinct is that the average poster here is not that kind of “victim.”

I am not going to let your post get under my skin. I know what I experienced and yes, there were red flags… SHAME ON ME! But I am not some kind of attention getting lunatic. What happened to me was not a life pattern for me and I know for sure, it will never happen again.

But thanks for enlightening us.

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I spent many years peer counseling people with mental health issues, and your description of this woman made all the alarms go off, because I went through situations where women acted like this over and over until I wised up:

1) Latching on to someone who clearly can’t actually get involved and giving them melodramatic portrayals of her sufferings, usually coupled with pleas for help.

2) Claims that the husband/boyfriend has used extreme and often Machiavellian methods to keep her from having any $ (with the “no $” excuse being put forth as the reason she can’t leave); these women may go so far as to claim that their men have “secret deals” with every financial institution in town that prevent them from having accounts in their own names and/or will cause the man to be alerted if she tries to create one or remove $.

3) Claims that she’ll kill herself, not arising from any evidence of deep depression but trotted out when the person she’s begging for “help” shows any signs of feeling like they’ve given the simple and obvious advice and are going to withdraw.

4) Fury when perfectly reasonable (under the circumstances) calls to authorities and/or people who CAN help are made… because this person doesn’t actually NEED emergency assistance, and in fact doesn’t really want ANY type of help; what they want is to have someone, or even several someones, to whom they can weep and wail on a regular basis, because they love seeming like tragic victims… and they love being able to suck YOU in emotionally.

Surprised to hear that the victims of sociopaths aren’t always saints, and didn’t always have to be tricked to become entangled with them… and aren’t always quite as “victim-ish” or innocent as they’re portrayed? Yes, MOST women involved with sociopaths ARE purely victims; I just felt so much sympathy, not to mention empathy, with Donna’s all-too-familiar experience that I’m willing to endure what may well be a hail of abuse from other posters who won’t want to hear that “victims of sociopaths” can themselves be manipulators to let Donna know that she was “emotionally scammed” by someone who didn’t actually want or need help.

Donna: a healthy person who genuinely wants to improve a bad situation might not be able to clearly see what to do, and might be afraid of doing those things once they DO see what they are, but they WON’T use the tactics I’ve described, and that your “caller” used on you. You seem like a kind person with a genuine passion to help others; just please be aware that this will make you a magnet for certain “abusive” (what else can you call it?) mental health patients who’ll get as much of a kick out of yanking you around emotionally as any sociopath would.

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There are a lot of problems with the text of Ponerology that we will be fixing in the next edition. It was translated by an academic from academic (very formal) Polish and we didn’t do very much editing (almost NONE except for glaring syntax or grammar errors). Many of the things that are somewhat vague will be clarified and expanded. It just takes time to work on a text that is this dense.

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In the book, did it really say “chocking” somewhere? I have that book but haven’t gotten all the way through it. I have described a chocking feeling I have had since my time with the Sociopath and it occurs when I think too much about it, when I see someone being manipulated in a movie, when I read the word Sociopath (sometimes), or have a moment when the meaning of the word Sociopath realy sinks in a little deeper for me, or I recall certain events that were especially upsetting, and so on. I have identified for sure that this chocking feeling which causes me to cough and make a scene sometimes, is directly connected to some distressing thought.

I want to see this in writing because I have wondered when this anxiety reaction will dissapate completely. Sometimes it comes up at really weird times… like in a job interview or something.

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I think sometimes when people cry out for help with their sociopath…
What they are really crying is, “PLEASE MAKE HIM CHANGE.”

Which, of course, is completely unrealistic, illogical, and futile.

But I think until someone decides to change that mindset, of wanting the sociopath to change, they will continue to put their head on that block.
They won’t get out. They won’t get away. They won’t save themselves.
They want someone else to change the sociopath so they don’t have to do any of that.
And of course, no matter what, that will never happen – probably never with your garden variety abusive jerk, and definitely never with a sociopath.

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