Aggression
PDF Question: Why do people engage in aggressive behaviour (some, as we know, rather more than others)?
Answer: Because they enjoy it.
There’s a bit of a flutter on the internet (see here and here) about research coming out of Vanderbilt University. Studying mice, Maria Couppis and Craig Kennedy have found that aggression can be as emotionally rewarding as food or sex.
The neurotransmitter dopamine has been implicated in nearly every experience we consider rewarding, such as love, drugs, eating, and sex. Indeed, the mesolimbic dopamine pathway is referred to as the reward system of the brain. Dopamine is necessary for reinforcement, e.g. the ex-smoker’s craving brought about by the whiff of cigarette smoke.
Now a direct connection has been drawn between dopamine and aggression. In the experiement the male home mouse continually pushed a button to let in an intruder mouse which it then aggressed. When treated with a dopamine antagonist (blocking the activity of the dopamine) the home mouse decreased its button-pushing. (For a discussion of the experiment see here.)
(Incidentally, it is important not to conflate aggression and violence. Aggression is dominating behaviour. For the mice aggressive behavior included tail rattle, an aggressive sideways stance, boxing and biting – two non-violent and two non-violent behaviours.)
“We learned from these experiments that an individual will intentionally seek out an aggressive encounter solely because they experience a rewarding sensation from it,” Kennedy said. “This shows for the first time that aggression, on its own, is motivating, and that the well-known positive reinforcer dopamine plays a critical role.”
Not that surprising?
I suspect that lovefraud/blog readers who have been on the receiving end of aggression won’t be surprised by these findings. Says Dr. Bliss at Maggies’ farm, “I cannot speak about mice, but every psychiatrist – and every person – knows that this is a fact for human beings.”
Any comments?
A query I have is runs something like this. Many commentators on this blog speak of increased assertiveness, anger, determination, etc. which has enabled them to get through relationships with psychopaths, to gain self-respect, and to make new lives. Would you say that you have learned to better access aggression? And if so, is there pleasure in it?
ErinBrock says:
I enjoyed the opportunity on Monday when the business spath contacted me, to be aggressive.
I was VERY aggressive…..total biatch status! Hung up with a HIGH…..
I felt empowered.
I also enjoyed calling the FBI to alert of their whereabouts…….that was aggressive on my behalf….and once again….I felt empowered by this ‘move’.
NOW……I don’t feel good telling an employee they are not doing a good job, or critisizing poor work.
I don’t enjoy or feel empowered disciplining my children.
I don’t feel empowerment, telling a friend of somehting they may have hurt me.
The above cause anxiety or discomfort. NO EMPOWERMENT, no power, no ‘fun’.
I did feel empowered when I had a boarder staying here who did NOT comply with the house rules, and when I got a call from the Sheriff in the middle of the night asking me to come pick him up (declining), I kicked him out when he showed up the next morning.
Initially, when I smelled rancid alcohol the week before penetrating the community hallways…..I felt anxiety at the confrontation I needed to do…..the eggshell feeling…..but knowing I didn’t want this in my house.
But after the police incident the next week…….I had NO problem when he showed back up….telling him, I hate to make a bad day worse, but you must be OUT by noon.
He groveled, cried, begged and whatnot……I didn’t buy any of it…..I told him I appreciated his emotions, yet it didn’t change my mind.
I was very firm in my decision and approach.
I was very pleased with the fact I didn’t sway or break, and offer the 2nd chance he begged for……
It was VERY EMPOWERING……but not without a bit of anxiety. Yet, again…..not joyful, just empowering at the chance at proving to myself I COULD stand up for myself!
So…..when I’m dealing with a spath……I gain great pleasure from the backspath and the counter control, power and the chance to be calculatedly agressive.
I view it as…….If it’s me or you…..it’s GONNA BE YOU SPATH!
Your going DOWN, and if I have ANYTHING TO DO ABOUT IT…..down HARD!
I feel good about that. GREAT PLEASURE going on IN THE RECEPTORS!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear EB,
That’s a very good post you did above about the feeling of ENJOYING back-pathing them, versus the feelings being different when you have to SET AND ENFORCE A BOUNDARY.
That woman I took in last year that I had to ask to leave (she turned out to be a P masking as a victim) when I told her to leave she went into the groveling, whining, crying, projecting, scapegoating, blaming carp, and I DIDN’T FEEL GOOD, but I DID feel FIRM in my resolve that she had to LEAVE TODAY. I even gave her a little over $100 just in case she didn’t have gas to make it out of town…I didn’t feel that I had to do that, but the thing is that I didn’t want her to have ANY excuse to hang around.
With my “X-friends” that I had to ask to leave here and that had all the stuff stored in my storage building that they left after I told them to get it out (gave them like 6 months notice) I didn’t feel good or empowered in setting limits with them, but I did feel FIRM and RESOLVED and that was a GOOD feeling, much better than feeling like a door mat.
You are right though, when we back-path them there is a feeling of EMPOWERMENT for me…but not when there is setting a boundary with someone we know in a different circumstance.
I enforced the boundary last year with my Son C, and it hurt like heck, it tore my heart out, but I did it, but there was NO feeling of empowerment, no feeling of fun or enjoyment, only heart break.
This parole hearing thing has been traumatic as well, but it is EMPOWERING, and I will CELEBRATE and DANCE AND SING when I get the word that he has a 5 year set off before he can even petition the parole board again, and I WILL BE THERE IN FACT OR SPIRIT EVERY TIME he goes back for as long as he lives.
Thank you EB, I learn so much from you, GF!!! (((hugs))))
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one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – it’s the difference between back spathing (which by definition means damping down our emotions, and being less empathetic), and being vulnerable.
We got here because we were overly caring and empathetic…and part of how we get out of that is to protect ourselves from being vulnerable. I know that right now, i would be more likely to drop a relationship than to try. I cannot be ‘the’ one to try, and it’s even hard to take a first step.
I will have won the post spath battle when i can again allow myself to be vulnerable to another; when i meet people and don’t focus on trying to figure out what their game is; when i don’t think that people are trying to fuck with me all the time; when i can feel love and care coming from people; AND when i have the attitude that they do care.
i kinda enjoy the fact that the spath is fucking with me and i find it a nuisance – albeit a major one – and it isn’t freaking me out. she doesn’t realize how much she has revealed herself by what she is doing lately. i know even more about her m.o. now and that is added to our bank of knowledge and she doesn’t even know she’s shooting herself in the foot. bless her heart.
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ErinBrock says:
I look at all spath ‘contact’, whether near or covert as an opportunity to learn about the behaviors.
They DO reveal their cons……and that, to me is invaluable information to take into my ‘future’.
I also feel in control, as I KNOW what’s up. I don’t fall for the ……claims of wanting to right their wrong…..(because Spaths DON”T DO THAT)….and it reveals their ‘real’ intention and they have NO IDEA i’m on to them, because to them…..there is ‘nothing’ to be ‘on’ to.
Sit back and listen….pay attention…..and do it from the comfort of your own livingroom…..with complete control of your emotions,disecting each word with intent……and a smile!
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lesson learned says:
This was an absolutely fascinating thread. Fascinating and gave me a totally different perspective on spathy behavior and motive. THAT is the key to get to reality and understanding just what was going on.
Absolutely outstanding article with a lot of great posts!
LL
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isabelita says:
I recently read somewhere that fMRI brain scans of sociopath’s show decreased activity in the Amygdula, Prefrontal Cortex, & Insula. Yes this is a recipe for lack of emotion(s). But I still don’t understand as to why the usual expressed “feeling” from a sociopath is rage/anger, yeah that’s part of an emotion, but does that particularly feed into the network of fight-or-flight portions of the brain? making it more severe?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
isabelita – i don’t think they feel anxiety/ fear, so i don’t think that’s it. i think their frustration anger and rage comes out of a sense of entitlement thwarted, boredom/ frustration with the empathic folk and not getting their need for constant stimulation met.
the only time I saw the spath angry and frustrated was when i or someone else wouldn’t play her game and do what she tried to manipulate us into doing – by going along with her ‘story’ we gave her LOADS of stimulation, which i think was the whole point. oh, and that she likes to f***with people and MAKE them do things she can later use against them to F***with them some more.
i wish i knew more about how the brain works. i need to read some more and get a bit more grounded in the research that does exist.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Isabelita,
There is a lot written about brain chemistry and more research going on each day.
It isn’t just one part of the brain, but I think many parts and there is a variety of differences too. Not all psychopaths are exactly the same, and there are different levels of them as well.
Some are more aggressive than others, some more impulsive than others, some more likely to be physically violent than others.
At this point in time even the professionals can’t agree on what is going on with all of them. About all that is known for sure is that there is some genetic and some environmental components to it.
The main thing we CAN learn is that we can learn to protect ourselves by spotting the patterns of their behaviors.
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lesson learned says:
Ox,
Why are there so many professionals that refuse to acknowledge or believe that this condition is unchangeable?
This troubles me.
LL
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Ox Drover says:
Not even professionals know everything. Took doctors a long time to realize germs caused disease.
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lesson learned says:
Great point, Ox. Although I think with psychology, it’s a bit more challenging.
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lesson learned says:
Ox,
How can we throw out “symptoms/signs” of a disorder if we can’t PROVE that it exists?
My therapist and I have been going around the block on this today. I’m SO GLAD he’s willing to work with me.
I have to tell you though….his position is that NOTHING Is unchangeable.
Now before you BOINK me with the pan, I DO see where he’s coming from from the level of a psychological position.
For example, today he told me that he had a client who was previously diagnosed ASPD, BUT while working with him, the man changed. His wife and newborn daughter split from him TWICE and he woke up. He did NOT want to be separated from them…..so he made BIG changes to his life and his interractions with his wife that endure to this DAY..
So I said to him, after contemplating this……….
“Then he wasn’t ASPD, was he?”
“Exactly!” he said………..this is why the word, “label” of “change” can also be misconstrued………..
When I see a client who exhibits this behavior, I have to keep an open mind to CHANGE insofar as diagnosis……….there will be ACTION versus WORDS………….
He said, “I will not label your ex a spath. But I WILL validate YOUR experience in that is was SEVERELY ABUSIVE and I”M open to you arguing your point with me……keep arguing with me…”
I think I know where this is going.
He lit a fire under my ass today. I found myself doing something that was not allowed with spath and being VALIDATED….
My opinion. Which was NEVER allowed.
LL
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tobehappy says:
This is why we need to be careful what we “label” people.
My xhusband was MUCH different than my recent b/f.
My xhusb was diagnosed as having “no conscience” and “unrehabilitative” by a very competent therapist.
He never called him a sociopath.
In fact, I never heard of a sociopath before I came onto this site….
I dated abusers, conartists, patholigical liars…over the years.
I am SURE that my xhusb is a true sociopath.
My b/f is NOT. I thought he was because he was lying to me about certain things…had a rough upbringing…and seem to fit some of the characteristics of a “sociopath”.
I was confused about what his “issues” were since I started reading this site. I know that he can empathize…yet, being a cop, he does have trust issues with people…and is afraid to tell the truth about certain things….and is a bit “macho” in his own ways…but I don’t see a person who has no remorse.
I also see selfishness in him…at times. He needs attention and love and reassurance a lot. He had a very neglectful and abusive upbringing.
So, is he a narcissist? Is he a sociopath? Is he just insecure?
He is NOT abusive at all. He is always kind and mannerly. He has never lost his temper or called me a name.
So, we cannot label someone without professional evaluation.
Alcoholics, abusers, drug addicts, bipolar……are dangerous…but not sociopaths.
Hmmmm
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Ox Drover says:
LL,
Sometimes the diagnosis is wrong so a person who has been diagnosed as psychopath (or ASPD) is incorrectly diagnosed to start with and they might get better, but not all agree that ASPD=Psychopath.
I’m not going to argue or even discuss this at any great length with you tonight, there is PLENTY OF STUFF HERE ON LF by Dr. Leedom and there are a lot of great books that go over this SAME ground so there is no sense in me trying to repeat it here. I suggest that you read these articles and order some of the books written by experts, and then you can take them to your therapist and let him read them. Not that he isn’t a great therapist but just cause it comes out of his mouth don’t make it “gospel.”
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Ox Drover says:
ps I didn’t mean to sound hateful in the above post, it is just that I don’t see any great point in rehashing what evidence is already well written up here on LF and in lots of the books about psychopathy written by THE true experts who have studied and researched this for decades.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Something to consider:
“The genetic deletion of Monoamine Oxidase A(MAOA), an enzyme that breaks down the monoamine neurotransmitters norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine, produces aggressive phenotypes across species. Therefore, a common polymorphism in the MAO A gene (referred to as high or low based on transcription in non-neuronal cells) has been investigated in a number of externalizing behavioral and clinical phenotypes. These studies provide evidence linking the low MAOA genotype and violent behavior but only through interaction with severe environmental stressors during childhood. We hypothesized that in healthy adult males the gene product of MAO A in the brain, rather than the gene per se, would be associated with regulating the concentration of brain amines involved in trait aggression…
Here we report for the first time that brain MAO A correlates inversely with the MPQ trait measure of aggression (but not with other personality traits) such that the lower the MAO A activity in cortical and subcortical brain regions, the higher the self-reported aggression (in both MAOA genotype groups) contributing to more than one-third of the variability. Because trait aggression is a measure used to predict antisocial behavior, these results underscore the relevance of MAO A as a neurochemical substrate of aberrant aggression.”
Basically, MAO A breaks down norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine. Low MAO A activity means neurotransmitters are broken down more slowly.
Higher norepinephrine levels would imply increased aggression and higher dopamine increased compulsivity.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Question for all:
Did you P/S smoke? Mine did, and I have a theory on this…
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Ox Drover says:
BBE,
.
Some do and some don’t just like with others….that is part of the problem on research stats right now, until the professionals can agree on a name for the condition, and agree on the symptomology there isn’t any way that good stats can be formed.
My P son does not smoke, smoked a minor amount of grass, but doesn’t seem to crave drugs or tobacco. My P sperm donor smoked like a chimney but hated drugs or alcohol, my egg donor and her whole family were smokers. I smoked from teenaged years until I quit a couple of years ago, my X BF drank like a fish but only smoked 3 (no more and no less) cigarettes per day, my X DIL that tried to kill her husband my son C neither smoked nor drank during the years she was married to my son, but there at the last she started both drugs and alcohol as well as cheating on him.
The Trojan Horse psychopath drank, and drugged, but didn’t smoke. I’ve known other people I think were very high on the PCL-R that neither drank nor drugged or smoked….some that did all three. Some folks who did all three and were NOT psychopathic. Just “stories” but not data….not enough information to form a pattern over the whole race of them.
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lesson learned says:
BBE,
Mine DID NOT smoke, but was a MAJOR alcoholic.
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lesson learned says:
Ox,
I get that. I”ve already ordered and read books. They apply to my experience.
As does what I read here.
I don’t think anyone’s word is “gospel” at this point.
LL
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lesson learned says:
sarah
“I’ve been trying to come up with some verbiage (rather than/narcissistic/psychopathic/Anti-social Personality/Sociopath) that describes these POWEER ADDICTED people. Usually victims will say “I’m not sure if he’s a narcissist/psychopath/ASPD/Sociopath” because he hasn’t been professionally diagnosed, or he’s not old enough, or I’m not a psychologist. But the victims are SURE that these demented individuals are always putting them down, falsely blaming them, raging uncontrollably, lying a lot, exploitative, gaslighting, abusive (physically and/or verbally), don’t take responsibility, are controlling, predatory, and have no conscience, and are sometimes very charming etc. With all that, victims are still often reluctant to LABEL them . . I read it again and again . . . It’s remarkable to me!!!!!! It seems that victims are so frightened to make a diagnostic mistake. And of course, in many instances the psychologist, who is not scared to make a mistake, only sees the charming side and hears the lies & excuses, and erroneously, again blames the victim (or as I was told – “It takes 2″.) Yes, In a murder it also takes 2, a victim and a murderer. But no one would dare say . . “It takes 2″. My point is that we need to give this addiction a name that victims won’t be scared to use (without trampling on professionals toes). I suggested POWER ADDICTS or POWER-HOLICS/CONTROL ADDICTS or CONTROLAHOLICS. I think we need to place the blame precisely where it belongs, and not be scared to do so, just because we are not “the professionals”. Sometimes (when so many professionals “just don’t get it” . . You’ve got to take it into your own hands. We lived it . . . they didn’t!!!! With apologies to those few professionals that DO GET IT!
This is the MOST profound post I’ve read on this site so far.
I’m going to copy, paste and put it up on my bathroom mirror.
It’s about the ONLY good sense I’ve seen here thus far in trying to make sense of a nonsense situation.
Thank you!!!
LL
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lesson learned says:
tobe,
I cannot avoid your inflaming, triggering posts.
So I need to leave the site.
That’s too bad. But what you’re saying is so steeped in denial I am triggered beyond belief.
Take good care everyone!
HUGS!
LL
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geminigirl says:
LL please dont feel you have to leave us. We need you. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link . You are a link we need. Cant you just disregard the posts that trouble you?
If you have to go, I hope and pray youll be back soon.
Love,
Mama gemXX
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BloggerT7165 says:
LL,
In regards to your comments about change. I agree with your therapist. Just because someone does not change/will not change does not mean they can not change. Changing something as complex as who you are can be very difficult.
I use an example of change on various students/interns to show just how complex this can be. Here it is:
Most people (adults) can tie their shoes without even looking at them or thinking about it. In fact many can do so while carrying on a conversation, etc. They also tend to tie them the same way everytime.
Now this action has been done repeatedly over and over, thousands or even tens of thousands of times. It has become a part of us.
Now the challenge is to try and tie your shoes the opposite way you do now. So if you start of with left over right you would switch to right over left, etc.
Do that and see how long it takes you to be able to tie them without thinking about it. How many times did you backslide and revert to the old way? How stressful was it? Were you able to really change it?
The answers are different for different people of course. But what it does (hopefully) is to help people give themselves a break when they are trying to change some part of their lives and are struggling or have some slip ups. If something as unimportant and goofy as tying your shoes different can be so hard than we can (hopefully) understand why we do so on bigger things.
That also (hopefully) tones down the judgemental aspect when we see others trying to change and struggling/backsliding at times.
And again just because someone won’t/don’t change in no way equals they can’t change.
There are many examples of people that could meet the criteria for ASPD or psychopathy who later on did change. The flaw in the myth of untreatable is that it starts off with the (flawed) assumption that “untreatable/unchangeable” is fact rather than looking to see if that assumed fact is really true or not.
Just because many or even if most did not change it still does not equal to they can’t change or that all of them can’t.
Some may find this interesting from a researcher who studies psychopathy along with other things https://webfiles.uci.edu/skeem/Downloads_files/IAFMHS_2008.pdf
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lesson learned says:
Blogger T.
I’m not opposed to your analogy, however, it is touted here on this site that pathology CANNOT be changed.
Be that as it may, and since you appear to agree with my therapist on this issue, to which I take argument, for the sake of those who have suffered at the hands of someone such as this………
What proof do you have to back up your assertions that this is indeed a changeable” aspect of one’s rigid and entrenched personality?
What factors are involved, if you in fact, have witnessed this, that says it is possible?
This is VERY contradictory as you well know here, however, I would appreciate learning more from you that supports some sort of hypothesis (other than the shoe tying analogy), that change is at all possible with a pathological, given the information that is gleened here. I believe this could very well be potentially harmful to a victim of the abuse that a psychopath liberally applies to his/her victim.
Please elaborate. I’m interested.
LL
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lesson learned says:
Blogger t
BTW, I’m not giving up on this therapist. Not an inch. He is WILLING to debate this with me at length. Is open to my perspective as I am open to his.
THis actually has a healing effect upon me.
But could also be a detrimental one at the same time if not carefully orchestrated in the therapeutic environment with a victim ( I prefer survivor) who has suffered at the hands of a very abusive psychopath.
LL
LL
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candy says:
I found an aggression and an anger inside me that I have NEVER experienced before and that is what has kept me going over recent months.
When I told Spath to go he turned up at my sons place and gave him agro. The police were called.
Now I’m a mother and my son is 25 BUT I am a mother and by God I was like a lioness with her cub. I could have killed spath – it worries me that I felt such anger and aggression ( I have never hit anyone in my life) Call it the maternal instinct, call it what you will, but I would have put him 6 feet under had it not been for my family calming me down and telling me HE’S NOT WORTH IT.
And do you know what? He’s not worth it. None of them are worth it.
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ErinBrock says:
To change…..we must first recognize there is a problem.
The final end for me was being told by spaths psychologist that they DO NOT CHANGE…..when I asked him……
He then followed it with…..well…..he’s seen a ‘manipulative’ change, forced when a spath is old, alone and get’s sick…..after he’d run off all dupes and supply…….THEN he started the lonely ploy……….whoa is me and went back through his black book of supply……looking for pity and ‘help’.
He was afraid of dying lonely.
Fuck that…..that’s YOUR gift! Deal……
For me……the ex spath was 44…….there was NO WAY I was gonna wait around for THAT! I’d already donated 28 years hoping and trying for change……
I WAS DONE! The ‘hope’ no longer existed for me…..and I was done.
I could give a rats ass if he changes……It will not affect me either way!
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ErinBrock says:
Never poke a sleeping bear…….
If he ever comes around here to cause ANY harm….he better smile……cuz that’s the pose he’ll be layed in the ground with.
Candy….I don’t think it matters how old our kids get…..its’ instictual.
What fool would mess with a mamma?
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lesson learned says:
Blogger t
As you can see, this subject of “change” for spaths. ruffles some feathers.
I’d appreciate it very much if you would elaborate as I’m interested in your perspective.
LL
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BloggerT7165 says:
LL,
I posted that link as it has credible studies mentioned in it about change and psychopathy.
And for the victim/survivor it hopefully would not be about if they (the abuser) can or can’t. I really do not care as much what someone says they can do (change), rather I place the importance (and judgement) on what they actually do.
Anyone in an abusive relationship (whether the abuser has a personality disorder or not) can fall into the trap of telling themselves( and other times the abused is conned into believing it by the abuser) into staying “because they can change”. Yes but can does not mean will (which is the other side of the coin of dont/wont does not mean cant).
So look at the presentation on that link from Dr. Skeem and it might answer your question about proof.
(edited for clarity)
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shabbychic says:
I’m following my gut instinct.
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lesson learned says:
Blogger T.
I read the link and I thank you for providing it. It’s interesting for sure, but it leads to more questions than answers on that end of the scale.
I think you make a very important and valid point, T. This idea of change is EXACTLY what kept me in my relationshit as long as I was. I think for many abused women, particularly those whose abusers have “moved on rapidly”, fear this. My ex is in therapy. Has been for over a year. There was NO change in his behavior, in fact it was WORSE insofar as manipulation goes. I think it’s important to point out that while reading your link, that progress for those who “change” is VERY slow. Just as it is for the victims of the abuser. Mine claims to have “changed” due to the love of a “Good” woman now. Well, that’s pretty swift given that it’s only been two months since I saw him last.
But when a victim is trying to recover and move out of the fog, those VERY machinations can be quite devastating as well as invalidating.
LL
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Ox Drover says:
LL, I just lost a long post! UGH so will try to recreate my thoughts.
Your comments about your “debating” with your therapist had sort of disquieted me in the past, but I sort of “Zinged” on them today.
Let me give you an idea of what I mean. Back when I was on the school debate team we would try to prove our point and convince the audience that our side was right (even if we didn’t believe it was, or if the teacher gave us some thing that was totally wrong) once I had to help prove that the “law of gravity was wrong.”
Recently when I went to see my doctor because my feet had started to swell to the point I couldn’t get my shoes on, she suggested it might be the amount of salt I was eating. I DID NOT WANT THAT TO BE THE REASON, so I “debated” with her about it, telling her that I had eaten a huge amount of salt all my life, and I have. If I were walking by the table I would pour some salt into my hand, eat it and keep on walking. The American heart Association recommends a maximum of 1,500 mg of sodium (salt) per person per day, and estimates that the AVERAGE actually eaten is between 3,000 and 5,000. I estimate that I was eating from 8,000 to 15,000 per day.
My doctor listened to me “debate” her and give her all the reasons I could think of that she was wrong and that I could still eat all the sodium I wanted and then she said in her quiet little way, with a smile, “Yea, that may be true, but YOU’VE NEVER BEEN THIS OLD BEFORE.”
SHE WAS RIGHT OF COURSE.
While she is open to listening to my “debating” her, the bottom line is that my DEBATE stance is not teaching me a thing, and the therapy or physician role is to be a supporter and a TEACHER and you can’t be a good student/learner if you are continually challenging the teacher.
I may have “proven” the law of gravity was wrong on the debate team, but that didn’t CHANGE THE FACTS. I may have given my doctor a lot of great arguments why the sodium I was eating (huge amounts) wasn’t what was causing my feet and legs to swell, but the point is that I needed to listen to HER and focus on making the changes in MY LIFE that were causing MY problems. Since SHE was in the teacher role and I was in the student/learner role, I wasn’t gaining anything by using my time with her to “debate” her assessments.
BloggerT and I have discussed and even argued and debated various aspects of psychopathy and philosophy and he has changed my mind on quite a few things that I had “opinions” on that were based on prejudice or bad information.
I have stated here that “psychopaths can’t change.” But what I actually MEANT TO SAY was that “psychopaths essentially are not motivated to change.” Most people aren’t.
However, I have known people who were psychopaths and alcoholics, and they went to AA and stopped drinking, and became DRY PSYCHOPATHS or as AA says “dry drunks.” That is CHANGE in a psychopath. Maybe not total change, but None the less it is SOME CHANGE. Why did they stop drinking? Why not change the other abusive self-defeating behaviors? I don’t know.
But for some reason, some psychopaths who are drunks will dry out and CHANGE that portion of their dysfunction.
I also learned that if you shock it enough times, even a flat worm (which is NOT smart) can be motivated to change it’s path and go around an electrode. So maybe there was something that “shocked” the drunk psychopath enough times that they were motivated to change that aspect of themselves.
I think many times most of us are in the “pre-contemplative” stage of “change.” In other words, we have NOT EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT THE NEEDED CHANGE YET. (I just love that “pre-contemplative” stage! Who ever named that had a sense of humor!) LOL Before I went to the doctor I was in the PRE-CONTEMPLATIVE stage of changing my behavior with sodium intake. I hadn’t even thought about it. LOL
When the doctor made me think about it. The contemplative stage. I resisted the CHANGE—until I realized I NEEDED TO CHANGE for my own good and made the DECISION to do so.
I did the same thing with smoking. Only I had stayed in the contemplative stage for decades, but I finally decided to DO it. Why now? (well actually a year or two ago) I don’t know, but something made me decide to ACT on my thinking and I did.
So I think, psychopaths (like other living things) CAN change it is just a matter of contemplation and motivation, and as a general rule, I haven’t observed much of either in the ones I have known….or in lots of normal folks either for that matter.
Thanks BloggerT! As always, you make me THINK!
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lesson learned says:
Ox,
Very insightful and oddly comforting post!
ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Precontemplative, contemplative, yep! Have been around the block a time or two with THAT one….
I may be forever “precontemplative” about quitting smoking too.
Wow.
I do see what you’re saying and it makes a lot of sense. I think my therapist was making a valid point to me that I now recognize. Sure, if you want to debate this, we will…..take as much time as you need, because we WILL eventually get down to YOU. LOL!!!
I see now where he was going with it. Petitie also pointed me to some of the archived articles by Steve Becker.
I think part of this for me, is trying to understand the nature of what I experienced, how it was done (sort of like the O for Umbrella), and WHY I participated in that. What was it that allowed me to PARTICIPATE in it? To believe it? To overlook?
I have some answers but not completely yet. But what I have come to understand, is how VIOLATING the experience was on every level. And as the fog clears I’m seeing more and more of it. I had to be DEEPLY involved and completley ERASE my reality to encompass his.
It was truly one of the most frightening experiences I’ve ever known and there are a lot of N’s, S’s in my fam of origin…not even that held the scope and depth of violating behaviors this last relationshit did.
I’m staying with this therapist. And I am because he makes me THINK. It might take a day or two…..but he’s damned good.
LL
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kim frederick says:
Yes thanks, BloggerT. Always interested in learning something new.
My reaction to the idea that a psychopath may be able to change is one of ambivalance. One the one hand it feels better (in a spiritual way) to believe no one is beyond help…that no one should be forclosed upon and seen as hopeless. I am also glad to see that there is at least an interest in the idea of rehabilition in the feild of corrections. I never would have thought so.
While I like others here have often expessed my contempt for psychopaths, I’m actually glad to see a little humane treatment, and some compassion.
On the other hand, as LL mentionedabove, for those of us who were mired in the misery of loving one, believing there is hope for change is probably the worst thing that could happen. That one thought could keep us stuck in hell, forever.
Maybe the idea that they can change is best left for the professionals. Even if they can change, it’s most likely they won’t, and if they do, it sure won’t be on my account.
But, thanks again, Blogger.
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kim frederick says:
I just read the article at top. It asks if we have learned to better access our aggression, and if we find pleasure in it.
In my seven year on and off again relationship with spath who was totally irresponsible, unreliable, mind f—-ing, game playing, not working, entitled, selfish and controlling, I became very aggressive. It kind of bothers me now, because I justify my behavior by telling myself he drove me to it, and that is classic abuser speak….but I still feel that way, in a sense. Did I find pleasure in it? I suppose, in a way I did. It made me feel like I was standing up for myself, and demanding better treatment…but I know now that it is a false sense of empowerment, because I never had the power to change him in any way, and no matter what I did, he was gonna do what he was gonna do. The only real pleasure I experienced as empowement was when I gave up, and moved on. When I went NC, and eventually was able NOT TO REACT to him…now that felt good. Really good.
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Ox Drover says:
LL, your “obsessive” need to “understand the psychopath” I think is sort of a normal phase we all get in, especially at first when we start to realize what we are dealing with in terms of dysfunction. Then we seem (generally) to have this need to make sure “our Psychopath” REALLY is a psychopath. The article Steve Becker wrote about “When he’s just a bad dude” is a great example of how it DOES NOT MATTER A TINKER’S DAM if they are a REAL psychopath or just a bad-arse-dude, they are TOXIC FOR US.
Somehow I think being able to “label” them as a psychopath and have someone else validate that makes us feel better about our own part in putting up with their crap!
Actually I remember a feeling of validation and “AH HA!!!!!!” when as I was getting my presentation ready for the parole board and was reading my P-son’s medical records (about 500 pages of very boring clinical visits) and came across the Visit where the nurse practitioner had labeled him as “High in ASPD traits” and “cluster B” and then listed all the character traits and the manipulative behavior, the lies, the grandiosity etc. IT WAS VALIDATION.
Not that I had doubted the diagnosis, but it was just great that someone on the INSIDE, a medical professional who dealt with psychopaths every day in her clinic in the prison, and MY LITTLE DARLING STOOD OUT FROM AMONG THE CROWD OF OTHER PSYCHOPATHS! LOL I used to have a bumper sticker that said “My son is an honor student at the state pen.” HOW validating to know that there was another person who realized my son is a true psychopath!!!!!
What does that validation mean? Well, it means that I wasn’t the cause of his problems, by being a bad mommy—though I did pass on the genes, so I guess that means I did unwittingly contribute to his psychopathy. But I don’t have to take the BLAME my kid is a rotten human being.
Actually, that validation doesn’t really mean anything in terms of myself—I hope it means something to the parole board though because it is all I have to take to them next time, that ASSESSMENT by that nurse practitioner and whatever literature I can come up with that shows that PSYCHOPATHS DON’T CHANGE FOR THE BETTER. So even if there was evidence that he MIGHT CHANGE FOR THE BETTER, I’ve got to get my debate shoes out and “prove” otherwise to the parole board.
While having someone else “validate” my opinions or my thoughts or my judgments might be soothing, in reality, I have to validate MYSELF for it to be truly meaningful. Unfortunately, I can’t validate that my son’s psychopathy, or any one else’s psychopathy or bad choices is the REASON for MY BAD CHOICES or my bad behavior.
I have to “man up” to the bar and take responsibility for my own choices, my own bad decisions and figure out a way to 1) quit making more bad decisions and 2) to substitute some good decisions that have a positive impact on my life.
I can’t go back and change those past bad decisions, and in many cases I can’t change the results of those past bad decisions. There are good relationships that have been broken because of my own past bad decisions or actions, there are opportunities lost that I can’t recover because of my bad decisions or bad behavior. I can’t undo those things. All I can do is to make better decisions today and hopefully in the future.
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candy says:
Hi all. Thanks for your responses. Having trouble getting onto some of the blogs. Dunno why. Can’t even get onto You Tube!
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lesson learned says:
Ox,
Actually, your story is very validating LOL! Love the bumper sticker!
I think what’s most validating is that the struggle I’m dealing with has been a similar struggle here for other posters too.
I think the confusion for me lies BOTH in his behavior, what, why and where for’s as well as mine and having PUT UP with it for so long. Not only is my reality very skewed right now, but it’s also tied up into HIS reality, if that makes sense. It’s like untying a HUGE mess of string in a big huge ball. I”m still trying to extricate myself from HIS reality. The more I do, the more frightening MY reality becomes in my reasons for having put up with the bad behavior in the first place.
I’m lost between was it me or was it HIM. What is mine to own and what is not? I think I’m struggling with owning my participation. I’m also struggling as a result of the CIRCUMSTANCES of my participation. I”m very angry at myself and very angry at him too.
I was so steeped in my fantasies of what I wanted him to be, and had lost touch with what was healthy versus what was not. This is also something I think about a lot. I was working to extricate from the relationshit already. I brought this up in therapy yesterday. Why am I SO upset by all of this NOW, when I was HELLBENT on getting out and HATED the bastard at that point? Therapist to me: “Because you’re tired. Simple as that.”
I think, to a great extent that is very true. I spent ten years in absolute fear and hypervigilance as to what he was going to do to me next. Absolutely terrified.
My choices have also caused a lot of grief, Ox. To my family, to my friends. There is a level of sadness about that now and I can’t take it back. My focus was so much on making him happy that I neglected my emotional responsibilities.
IN order to maintain my NC right now, as I’m still in the early part of recovery, I’m keeping in mind, battling the thoughts that infiltrate me with regards to my fantasy, versus what he was. His actual underlying character. Intellectually, I know all of this will come to me in time. Unfortunately, it’s only time that is going to heal the wounds and I understand that it will be an uphill climb for sure. But for right now, I’m still feeling pretty wounded………..and stooooooooooooooopid lol!
LL
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Ox Drover says:
QUOTE: KIM FREDERICKS: “…I became very aggressive. It kind of bothers me now, because I justify my behavior by telling myself he drove me to it, and that is classic abuser speak….but I still feel that way, in a sense. Did I find pleasure in it? I suppose, in a way I did. It made me feel like I was standing up for myself, and demanding better treatment…but I know now that it is a false sense of empowerment, because I never had the power to change him in any way, and no matter what I did, he was gonna do what he was gonna do. The only real pleasure I experienced as empowement was when I gave up, and moved on. When I went NC, and eventually was able NOT TO REACT to him…now that felt good. Really good. ”
Kim, I can so relate to what you wrote above….and that feeling of “standing up for myself” when I had a false sense of I could change how they behaved if I “stood up” for myself.
GREAT POINTS, Kim!!!!
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lesson learned says:
I totally get this one too, Kim. But you expressed it beautifully!
LL
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
i have been getting whiffs of gas in my apt. the last few days. i called the landlord 3 times.
saw him today. asked him if he had had the furnace looked at. he say yes. i say by who. he says himself. then he says the plumber. i say ha.
. i say what am i supposed to do, just suck gas? he says it costs money to have someone look at it. duh. he says noone else smells it. i say where is the furnace room? (under my kitchen where i am smelling the gas). he says it’s 4 feet out from my kitchen. i say you think gas can’t travel 4 feet?
he grumbles going up the stairs. i hear the word nuts. i go after his bullying ass. he starts spouting off on me. i tell to make a list of his complaints. and that he better SMARTEN UP!
don’t know if this will have bad repercussions on me. i feel freed by it. i didn’t take any bullying crap. i did not plead, whine of try to be nice. i asked him questions. i challenged his bull and his whiner.
he is a piece of scum. i have been being very nice to him to keep him off balance.
i have also been afraid of his bully crap. seems that isn’t the case today. he doesn’t have someone in tomorrow to look at it, i take him to property standards.
i feel liberated. hope it lasts.
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silvermoon says:
One,
Exactly!!!
I have been meaning to write here that the notion of agression means one thing on our side of the fence and another on the disordered side.
For us, its about coming from a lack of ASSERTION of our rights and legitimate needs that we experience as being aggressive – it isn’t the way the article describes but it is far more “out there” than most of us have been accustomed to being.
Take names, pull badges. We don’t Have to put up with it. Fact is, we never did. And most of us never really understood it the way we do now…..
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One,
CALL THE GAS COMPANY!!!! ASAP!!!!! They will get someone out there and bill your land lord! And yes, it will probably have some flow back, but if you truly smell gas, this is not something to negotiate about. You also might be getting some carbonmonoxide and that does not have an odor.
We had a furnace malfunction a few years ago and I did not have a carbonmonoxide detector and we almost died! A gas leak can mean a leak, or it can mean it is incompletely burning and so you are smelling the gas but NOT smelling the monoxide with it because of the incomplete combustion.
I now have a carbon monoxide detector as well as a fire detector and smoke detector—and a parrot that mimics it (OUCH!!!) but if I use all the burners in the stove cooking for a while, it will go off it is so sensitive!
That might account for some of your medical problems and the feeling of being stressed. CO has 4 x the affinity for the hemoglobin that O-2 does and it robs the body of O-2 by hanging on to the available spots on the hemoglobin so the blood cannot transport the O-2.
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lesson learned says:
One
OMG! One of my dearest friends is JUST NOW going through this at her HOME! IT WAS HER FURNACE!!! Which today is being REPLACED. The carbonmonoxide meter was OFF THE CHARTS IN THEIR HOME AND WAS UNDETECTED UNTIL THE GAS COMPANY SHOWED UP YESTERDAY!!!
ASAP CHICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LL
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silvermoon says:
I wasn’t thinking! Yes, call the Gas company!
There was a situation here last year where gas collected in a trench behind the church in the village.
It blew the back wall off the building!
Absolutely call the gas company. Don’t wait for the landlord!
If you call and say I smell gas, they will come. FAST~!
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geminigirl says:
Hi, Guys!
Im not going to apologise for my raunchy posts,{altho I have asked for them to be deleted.} I think its a sign Im getting liberated and freed up inside. Now 2 years come thisJune since I last saw” the Leech,” ie, spath daughter no.1
Dont miss her now, hardly ever worry about her{I used to worry about her 24/7}.Whats to miss?
Yesterday I did a survey {on the website Narcissism Support respources,},”The Narcissistic Vampire checklist,” It said, if the person has 7 or more of these traits, then they are Narc vampire. Out of 20 questions, she scored 18!
Yea, I know I probably goofed sending a cheque for $200–
to my SIL, I felt so sorry for him.So Boink me upside the Haid!he has made bad choices too, ie, taking the GF to India last July when he owed over A$50,000 in Credit card debt. he told me he has just been paying the interest on them for the last 4 years.he still smokes cigs, and pot, too.
How come he can afford to do that?
Her husband used to believe the incredibl e lies she told him about me, and thats why he did not protest at me being banned from her wedding in1994. But my present Husband got an invite!Naturally he didnt go.
Ive wasted way too much of my brain cells trying to work out WHY she and her sister are like this,-waste of time, I know now Ill NEVER ever get any closure, except NC for life.
THIS IS THE WAY THESE SICK BIATCHES ARE. No good feeling sorry for them,they did it to themselves, with no help from me.I refute the lie that I wasa bad Mother. I did the very best I could in impossible circumstances. Looking back, its a wonder I made it out alive, or even half way sane.!
I used to think,”Maybe if I just loved them more forgave them more, gave them more, understood them more, the nice person inside of them will one day emerge.!” WRONG thinking! Stinkin thinkin! There is NO nice person inside to emerge. This is who they are.
Didnt happen, wont happen, Ive been waiting over 30 years.NC is th only thing taht works for me.And it DOES get easier with time.
Forgiveness is for ME, I need to forgive myself .
Love,
Mama gemXX
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skylar says:
MamaGem,
Maybe it’s because you were so giving that they learned to be so taking.
I was/am so angry at my parents for the way they raised me. They gave, gave, gave to my spath bro and sis but they ignored my good sis and me. Now they are seeing that the spoiled ones are SPOILED, ROTTEN FRUIT. I guess there is a reason why it’s called “spoiled”. (sometimes we take the deeper meanings in the English language for granted).
In a way, I’m glad that they didn’t spoil me because I would NOT want to turn out like my HORRIBLE brother and sister. I prefer being the pathetic doormat that I am!
My spath sister actually told my mom, “I know I’m selfish, I’ve always been that way, it’s just the way I am.” and she told me, “Everybody is evil, it’s ok to be evil”. She is as stupid as she is evil. (is that a good thing?)
My spath brother is very good at hiding his evil and lives using a constant pity ploy. I found out why he emailed me to tell me how much he loves me. It’s because he saw that I had put a web cam in the room I have at my parents’ house, so he was going to start fishing to find out if I saw him snooping in there. LOL. The web cam doesn’t even work but he doesn’t know that.
Anyways, being the giving and loving person you are is not wrong, Gem. You just have to know who to give to. Don’t let users tug at your heart strings because there is a never ending stream of users out there with their hands out. Jesus said “don’t throw your pearls before swine.” Keep that always in mind.
((hugs))
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geminigirl says:
Thank you so much Sky!! I appreciate everything youve written.Ill try very hard from now on not to cast my pearls before swine,{and there are a lot of swine out there!}Huggles,
Mama gemXX
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