Differentiating narcissists and psychopaths
PDF Editor’s note: This article was submitted by Steve Becker, LCSW, CH.T, who has a private psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and clinical consulting practice in New Jersey, USA. For more information, visit his website, powercommunicating.com.
We can begin by noting something that both narcissists and psychopaths share: a tendency to regard others as objects more than persons. Immediately this raises concerns: you don’t have to empathize with objects; objects don’t have feelings worth recognizing. You can toy with objects; manipulate and exploit them for your own gratification, with a paucity of guilt.
Welcome to the world of the narcissist and psychopath. Theirs is a mindset of immediate, demanded gratification, with a view of others as expected—indeed existing—to serve their agendas. Frustrate their agendas, and you can expect repercussions, ranging from the disruptive to ruinous.
Distinct explanations for their actions
The behaviors of narcissists and psychopaths can look very similar in their staggering disregard and abuse of others. Distinctions arise, however, in the explanation of their actions. The narcissist will crave recognition and validation. He will demand that others notice and appreciate his special qualities; his special qualities make his needs special, which leaves him feeling entitled to their satisfaction. He demands all this as if his inner self is at stake, and it is. Disappointment leaves him feeling unappreciated, neglected. Anger and rage then surface in aggressive and passive-aggressive displays, often in proportion to the hurt and vulnerability he can’t own.
The psychopath is less obsessed than the narcissist with validation. Indeed, his inner world seems to lack much of anything to validate: it is barren, with nothing in it that would even be responsive to validation. An emotional cipher, the psychopath’s exploitation of others is more predatory than the narcissist’s. For the psychopath, who may be paranoid, the world is something like a gigantic hunt, populated by personified-objects to be mined to his advantage.
Example: narcissists and psychopaths as cheaters
As an example, let’s take a hypothetical narcissist and psychopath: Both males (females can be narcissists and psychopaths), both married, with families; and both compulsively conducting extra-marital affairs. Both have managed to avoid exposure principally due to the ease and remarkable skill with which they routinely lie and dissemble. They are equally persuasive in declaiming their fidelity to their wives as they are at contriving their unmarried status to their mistresses. Nevertheless, from time to time, their wives may approach them with uneasy suspicions, to which they’ll respond not with accountability, but as with outrage to have to deign to address their wives’ anxieties. They will impugn their wives for raising doubts about them, leaving the latter feeling defensive, guilty, and perhaps ashamed.
Narcissist is insecure
To this point, there is little on the surface to distinguish them. But going deeper, we discover that our narcissist is actually terribly insecure and needy. For him, having affairs validates his masculinity. His seductive abilities reassure him of his manhood. If he can no longer seduce and sleep with women, he is nothing; he has “lost it.” Feeling his nothingness/worthlessness, he grows depressed, despairing. He might even feel like killing himself. To salvage his collapsing self-image, he needs an infusion of reassurance, sought in a new affair. In the narcissist’s world, the more his psychic welfare is threatened, the more hers is disposable.
The narcissist will rationalize his actions with his greatest defenses—blame and contempt: My wife has been nasty to me for a long time, and doesn’t remotely appreciate me anymore. She’s lucky all I do is cheat; I could leave her instead, with nothing. The fact that I’ve stayed is almost charitable. And these women I cheat with…sure, they all think I’m unmarried, and you know what, I basically am.
Our narcissist, as you see, has a dim notion of ethics; but his ethics are corrupted by alarming rationalizations. He is expert at furnishing these rationalizations seamlessly, leaving him as if with the untroubled conscience of the psychopath.
Psychopath plays a game
Our psychopath, meanwhile, has no ethics, and thus no need for rationalizations. He has affairs because he wants to. Life, for him, is a game. The game is about figuring out how to get what he wants now, by whatever stratagems necessary. And it’s a game without rules. Without rules, there is no violation, no exploitation; and even if there is, it’s part of the game. So our psychopath makes up the rules as he goes along, duping this individual and that, lying like a shameless child as he improvises his way in and out of his schemes, sometimes smoothly, sometimes not—but always heedless of, and absolutely indifferent to, the damage he causes.
The psychopath will sit back, reflecting on his infidelities, and laughing, think, “I’ve still got it.” He will mean, “I’ve still got the ability to maneuver these women like a puppeteer.” This will amuse him. The narcissist will sit back, and likewise think, “I’ve still got it.” But he will mean, “I’m still attractive. Women still find me irresistible. I’m okay, for now.”
Commonly, the psychopath is upheld as the incarnation of the murderous bogeyman. While it’s true that many cold-blooded killers are psychopaths, most psychopaths are not killers. The majority of psychopaths would find a messy murder too inconvenient and personally unpleasant a task to assume. This—the personal inconvenience and unpleasantness, not empathy for the slaughtered victim—explains why a great many more psychopaths than not, with chilling non-compunction, are more likely to target your life’s savings than butcher you, and dispose of your remains in several industrial-strength Hefty bags.
This doesn’t make the non-murderous psychopath “less psychopathic,” or “more sensitive” than the murderous psychopath; it merely reflects the calculus psychopaths apply in their decision-making: how can I get, or take what I want, for maximum instant gain, at minimum personal inconvenience?
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
eyesopened says:
Dear Sorrow
Your post reminded me of a parasitic wasp I read about awhile ago. I saw parallels to the way both the wasp and the sociopath work. This wasp searches out an unsuspecting caterpillar or spider going about his business and bores a hole into it.
The real damage comes much later when the larvae, that the wasp has secretly left behind, grows inside the host which I believe is paralyzed. The larvae then eats the host from inside out until it dies and only its shell is left. It’s a very devious operation.
The host’s life was sublimated for the interests of the parasite. No regard or consideration was given to the ultimate fate of the host; the parasite just moved on to a new host to start the procedure all over again.
Reading your post was painful because I think many of us have been where you are right now and I’m sorry you’re dealing with so much sorrow.
It’s easy to feel foolish, embarrassed, sad, disillusioned, confused and any other emotion you might mention as you mentally review your story with him.
We probably had a weak spot that allowed an intruder to get under our skin, deposit the bag of self-doubts that would eat us from the inside out and leave us feeling like a shell of our former selves.
Where we differ from the poor caterpillar or spider is that we don’t naturally die from the attack. We may be momentarily set back or knocked out a little bit while we recover, but this is the time to take very good care of yourself, to be gentle with your progress and forgiving of your thoughts.
Personally, I felt like I was injected with a toxic infection and I had to let it run its course before I could be myself again.
At one point, early on, much like where you are now, I thought I might be going out of my mind. I felt addicted. It gave me first-hand insight into how someone who’s really addicted might feel and how all-consuming the thoughts of the S with whom I was involved were on his sexual addiction. I couldn’t shake my thoughts and I couldn’t stand being held hostage and pinned down by my thoughts. Addictions can hold you by the throat.
The one thing that pulled me off my internal “ceiling” came the day after I prayed for help to the Virgin Mary, who promises peace. The next morning I awoke to one unspoken word – hypnotist. I’ve never been to an hypnotist and, quite frankly, didn’t believe in them. I thought they might be like psychics.
In spite of this, I searched the phone book for the most serious one, the one with a list of professional credentials and a business-like approach. She listed addictions as a specialty and still I waited another day until I made an appointment.
As it turned out, she was a former nun, warm, calm and peaceful and her office was soothing. We just talked about everything and before I knew it, the appointment was up. Even though, I had talked others, she was the one who was healing for me, and “opened” the release valve of my brain to let the pressure out. I didn’t return for another session; that was all I needed.
Somewhere along the line, I stumbled onto Lovefraud and put a name to what I had gone through. In the process, I discovered my “peeps” – these wonderful supportive and understanding members of our little club. Beverly and Apt/Mgr. were always very soothing and sensible to read. I’m glad Beverly has responded to you.
For a long time I think I was in a low-grade depression and probably released a lot of damaging cortisol and depleted my dopamine and seratonin. I gained a little weight, lost interest in things I would usually like, and was unusually impatient and irritable with people close to me. All my natural joy was gone…I thought.
Also, since the first dramas with the S, my skin began reacting to things I put on it or ingested. My face would blow up, I’d get hives – something I had never had before. I loved mangoes but suddenly couldn’t even touch them. Face creams or cleansers, even ones I had used before, would make my face erupt in blisters. And poison oak? I only had to see it to get it. I was beside myself because my life was becoming so limited.
Even though my mind might have been working through everything, my body was acting out. With one little homeopathic pellet after a visit to a doctor, who spent three hours extracting every piece of information about my life, but surprisingly with no physical examination, my skin issues were immediately resolved and, the most surprising of all, my joy came back.
Apparently, and I’m not an expert, homeopathy works on the whole system and my whole system was out of whack. Now, I can touch mangoes and I’ve actually touched poison oak several times by accident and had not one bit of reaction.
I think I may have let his cold words and brutal actions fester for too long and eat me alive from the inside out before I took action. Of course, I didn’t know what action to take for a long time, either. In my case, I had to identify what I needed and then wait for the suggestion.
Prayers, the hypnotist, Lovefraud and homeopathy was my path. We all have our own paths to recovery.
Sorrow, maybe not now but soon, you too will shift your eyes from him and back to you. Contrary to how you may feel now, I think that’s where you will find true beauty. This path we’re all on separately is often very rocky in the beginning and it’s hard to picture any worthwhile life at the end of it.
But the truth is, there is life and a life and person (you) wiser, more profound and more enriched as a result.
Know that, as unhelpful as it sounds now, it will probably take time for this to happen, but it does.
What I wish I had known then, that I do know now, is that even though there were good times, I also let him treat me callously. I didn’t like it, it didn’t feel good, I wished things were different but I didn’t want to lose him. So, I struck my own bargain and to my disadvantage, but by then, like the poor caterpillar, I had already been infected and paralyzed.
You do know what happens to caterpillars, don’t you? They become butterflies. It isn’t an easy process – they have to cocoon before their transformation and then they have to do a lot of work – and waiting – but then they emerge to soar freely and spread their colorful wings in the warm sunshine.
You’re on the path, now. You’ll probably go back and forth in your emotions and thoughts for awhile – that’s normal – your brain is trying to make sense of something that is insensible. When one of his toxic statements rise up against you in your mind, be gentle and remind yourself that YOU love you…and you’re worth loving.
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Sorrow says:
Thank you so much, Beverly and Eyesopened!
I don’t know how I’d survive this if I did not have this opening to breath through.
Each morning when I wake up I feel as if someone is punching me. I feel so unhappy and scared and all alone in the world.
I don’t know how it happened. The members of my family have never been close. One of my two older sisters I haven’t been in touch with for some years now. She has withdrawn from us all. My other sister knows from my mother how bad I feel these days but she has not even tried to contact me. My mother says that my sister is too hung up with her jiob to call or take any interest. My dad died two years ago, and my son lives in Copenhagen, where I can not go that often because I do not have the money to pay the ticket.
I used to have a very good friend but I must admit that at some point I felt that we grew apart and once I may have been neglecting our friendship (she scoulded me for that even before I met my ex. At that time we tried to renew our friendship but didn’t succeed. When I called her to tell about all this, she cut me off in a rather fierce way.) Come to think of it: Once when I spoke nicely about my friend, my ex said to me: “Where would you be without her?”
It’s not that he has in any way prevented me from seeing her while I’ve known him. I just kept putting it off because I was so busy concentrating on my relation to him. And she herself never called.
Another aquaintance seems too much into the idea that everything that happens is for the best and you just have to lean back, take guidance from astrology and believe in your personal guiding angel, whereas I hold on to the idea that you yourself is responsible for creating your own life. She was the one who told me, when I called, that I must be gratefull to the angels for providing me with this opportunity to grow and get stronger. I must admit that I haven’t had the strenght to call her again, and she hasn’t called me.
My mother lives nearby – and my sons father. I talk to them almost daily on the phone, but my mother is an old lady aged 78, and her health is poor. Honestly, I fear that i might soon loose her. My exhusband, who is twenty years older than I, is also in a bad condition. He has been given a pension and he cannot get out of his apartment because he suffers from all kinds of weaknesses. The doctors say, it is mainly a psychological state, but he does not believe that.
I have e-mailed a few male mailfriends and told them my story. And it frightens me that both my exhusband and these other men all tell me that they recognize at least part of themselves in my ex (U). They make excuses for his behaviour: “He may just have become teart of the whole thing, he was probably honest from the start, they say. Don’t make a big deal out of it. Your dreams are too big. You think too much in ethics and moral. People are not like that. You are too oldfashioned.
It gives me the creaps. I’m beginning to think that perhaps all men ARE like that. Perhaps I am doomed to spent the rest of my life alone – or with one p/n after another.”
I finished my university education last fall and I’ve been looking for a job ever since. My grades are as good as they could be and I have had several people going over my applications to ensure that they are allright but still no job in sight. I write book reviews (for free) for a literary online magazine.
I also have a weblog (in danish) where I write review and small pieces of fiction and columns on various subjects, but still I haven’t got a proper network. Actually I do not have a network at all.
This has begun to scare me. Yes, it feels as if I might be close to going mad. I wonder now if I’ve always been a bit different form most people. I can easily blend in at a party but I am a bit shy and I am certainly not outgoing. I find it extremely hard to make new friends at my age. (44). Ususally I like being alone much of the time, but now the loneliness is intolerable.
Eyesopened: Your image of the caterpillar starteled me. Last night I wrote a small piece of fiction about my experience with U (the ex.) You see: In his cottage he has a big white figure of plaster sitting in the windowsill. It is a copy of some classic depection of – guess who? – Echo!
She is placed in such a way that she looks straight at him when he is sitting in his chair infront of the fireplace. I have always loved this figure. But last night I came to think about the symbolic quality of the fact that she sits there looking at him – the Narcissus. I also remembered that she is hollow inside – and mute, of course. In addition U has a hearingproblem. So even if she wasn’t mute, he wouldn’t hear her crying out, would he?
The lansdscape that surrounds his house has names such as “Pan’s Cave” and “Happiness Ease Way”. Everything seems to have supported him in creating me a fairytale. But all of a sudden he let his mask fall and when I was confronted with the narcissist behind it I became as black an hollow inside as Echo on the windowsill. I wrote about that. I would like to post it on my blog but right now I’m still a bit uncertain whether to do it or not. I would be my attempt to get back at him. (I haven’t mentioned his name in it, of course. I only refer to places and to the names Echo and Narcissus.) He used to read my blog a couple of times each week, but since he rejected me, he has only read it once. I can tell from my sitemeter. (Not that I can see exactly who is on, but I can tell the host and the area.) His siter might read my blog. He has told me that she used to do that now and again.
Actually, what I’d like to do is to warn others against him, so that he might have a more difficult time finding new victims. But it seems impossible. He hasn’t taken money from me, and he hasn’t physically harmed me, so what would people think? Oh, there’s another rejected woman going mad! I’d come out as the bad guy here. Isn’t that clever? Well, he IS clever. He is a very good chessplayer, and if he’s been telling the thruth about it, he has also won huge sums earlier on, when he played online poker. He also solves the most difficult suduko in no time. I’ve watched him do it. Perhaps what he is lacking in empathy he has been gven for intellect…
Going back a bit in this post: I know that I have a tendency to “read signs” and see things as symbols. That’s what has made me a good textreader. But in this case it almost amounts to too much. I mean: He did not name these places, and – if I should believe him on that one – it was his parents who bought Echo for themselves when they were still alive.
I get these crazy thoughts that there might be more to all of this, than just a bad guy seducing women and playing with their feelings. (As if that isn’t bad enough.) I get these ideas that there is more hidden behind the whole thing. Some strange and dark story. And I tell myself to be carefull not to believe it, but I feel such an urge to uncover it. I have some ideas what it might be but something in me doesn’t dare to speak it out loud at this point. If I’m right something is seriously wrong in this family and they might not want anyone to find out.
Then again: My fantasy has always been overly active, I’ve been told. And I may have been watching too many movies. (By the way, both he and another ex who was probably a p, kept talking about the movie called Last tango in Paris. I know what it’s about, but I haven’t felt the urge to watch it. U’s favourite movie is Spy Game, and I think he has put it on for us to watch around six or seven times, while I’ve known him. Can anyone tell me if there’s something here that should have warned me?) On the good side my fantasy gives me the ability to write fiction – eventhough I’ve been too selfcritical to try to get anything, except for academic papers and a few poems, published yet. On the bad side it may tangle me up in weared thoughts. I can’t help thinking about the fact that both you, Beverly, and one good mailfriend has told me to “take good care”. My mailfriend, a female writer who does not know my ex but who knows his area, in which she grew up, went down with stress, just after I’d told her my story. Well, it might just be an incident and it might have nothing to do with my story, since her daughter’s roommate had just been killed in a car accident, and my friend had had some stress beforehand because of a new publication. Anyhow – this friend told me that she was seriously worried about me and that I should be carefull.
I do not feel scared that my ex would harm me physically. I do not think he has that much interest in me. Unless perhaps if I write about him and his family which I might just do in a fictional form in order to get some relief, and in order to feel that at least I had some inspiration. Do I sound mad? Yes, I think I do. I may have gone a little nuts these past weeks. I am not even sure that I have the strenght it takes to put all of this into words. So much for daydreaming.
There’s still this gap inside of me. No matter how I think about it. No matter how I try to analyze him and the situation and no matter how I try to find my anger, all I’m left with is the thought, that something just doesn’t add up!
Have you ever felt that? I mean, it is as if I can not bring myself around to believing that he was really faking it all.
When I first spent days in his house, now and then it seemed to me, that I could hear voices or music playing in some strange sphearical way. I remeber telling him. And then we spoke about paranormal experiences. It seemed that more members of his family had had such experiences over time. I myself have had a few in my childhood. But then again, I am a sceptic when it comes to these things. I’d like to believe in it, but I do believe that most things can be accounted for by knowing how the brain works, and I think most psychics are cunning other people.
I’m just letting my thoughts flow. Sorry, if it seems strange and incoherent.
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JaneSmith says:
Dear Sorrow,
I’ve read all of your comments, your honest account of the experience you had with a dysfunctional mate. First, let me offer my sincerest condolences for the pain and suffering you are dealing with now. Every single person, man & woman, on this website has been EXACTLY where you are now. Feeling and thinking the same way you are.
I’m not the wisest, smartest gal on LoveFraud but I do think I might have some of my own difficultly earned wisdom to share with you. By your writing, you seem like a highly intelligent, creative, loving, compassionate woman. And highly analytical, reasoning due to your yearning to understand the mystery that is your ex. See, here’s where I think the problem is. How you won’t be able to focus on your OWN recovery and healing because you are focusing so much of your effort and energy on the ex. Trying to figure out why he is the way he is. Trust me, it is a fruitless endeavor. Why do I say that? Because your ex is not a normal, healthy individual, regardless of the low-high level of personality disorder he suffers. You ARE a normal person. You are giving, caring, loving, selfless, compassionate. He is not and he never will be. Ever. Unless HE wants to change, to fix himself. He’s a grown man, 51 years old. If he was truly concerned about the emotional and psychological damage he was causing, he WOULD seek help, assistance. Just my opinion.
I spent countless hours, days trying to figure out why someone I thought I had truly loved, and they loved me (at least professed to love me), could throw me away like yesterday’s garbage as if the pain they had caused me was simply not their fault and none of their concern. When I finally had that lightbulb moment of realization, that this person who supposedly cared a great deal for me, was trying to destroy my confidence, my self-esteem in an effort to control me, I got MAD! Furious!! “How dare such-n-such use me so callously, how dare he desire me to be sooo fragile, vulnerable, overflowing with self-doubt so he could force his machinations on ME!!” I knew in my heart and mind right then that I was so much more worthy, valuable, important than my ex would allow me to believe.
Remember, it’s all a game to them. Some twisted, perverted, crazy game to them. They suck our precious energy from us and FEED! Believe it or not, I was referring to my ex husband up above. We ended over 15 years ago. I don’t spend too much time on him, as I consider that over and done a long time ago. But he is a powerful reference for me whenever I meet someone new. I conjure his dead spirit in me to remind me what I DON’T want or need in my life.
As all these wise, beautiful, wonderful, supportive people advize on LoveFraud….Be oh so kind, oh so loving, and oh so easy on yourself right now. You have suffered tremendously and are still in the throes of confusion, self-doubt, and the complete spectrum of emotions. Try to spend your energy focusing on you. On your strengths, wonderful qualities. Build up on your own self-esteem, because, Sorrow….you are absolutely worth it. Believe it, learn it, live it. ***HUG***
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JaneSmith says:
One more thing to all readers…….DONT DO INTERNET DATING!!!
It’s too disappointing in the least and super DANGEROUS in the worst. The odds are too high, too much risk involved (mental, emotional, physical harm to YOU). I’m all about self-preservation now, and it’s just not worth it.
I joined Match for two peensy, weensy months about 3 years ago. I tried to write my profile as intelligent, creative, feisty as I possibly could so I wouldn’t attract the rejects of society. I was inundated, overwhelmed with the emails I received, enough so that I started feeling like a JOB! Should searching for a loving mate resemble the consuming task of looking at numerous applications? NO!! It’s not an easy thing to find a mate, but it surely must be less arduous that the crap I encountered on Match. I also felt awkward and unconfortable with the whole, darn thing. I think my intuition was on high alert striving to search for flowers among the weeds. Even so, I went on 3 seperate dates with 3 men. The first sent clever, seemingly gentlemanly emails. On our date he was immediately antagonistic, like he was contemptuous of my own ideas and opinions. Strike one! The second drove all the way to the little town I was living in, (about 300 miles from his city) and I guess he was ok. He was very good-looking, highly intelligent, and interesting. But as we were chatting outside on the lawn, he confessed that he was Bi-Polar. Now, I’m not the kind of woman who dismisses, discards people simply because they have a mental disorder. I’ve had my own issues with past depression and anxiety and I cured myself through rigorous thougtht/behavior modification, oodles of quiet time in prayer with the Lord, and the determination to confront my irrational fears. It was a long, long process but I am the evidence that it was a success.
Anyway, I decided to move on from guy number 2 as not being suitable for me. Strike 2!
The last dude I dated one time, was a Master Player. How do I know he was a Master Player? Well, when I met him he was adorable, good looking, talented, SEEMINGLY sweet….but when I didn’t hear from him ever again after that night I realized why. I didn’t have sex with him. That’s all he wanted from me and when I didn’t deliver, he had moved on the next gal on the list. Strike 3….I’m OUT!!
I felt so foolish after the debacle that is online dating. But it’s just not for me, or for anyone who has the distinct personalities/qualities:
king
loving
honest
trustworthy
compassionate
caring
nurturing
giving….and on and on….
Yes, I am very cynical, very suspicious of dating websites as I should be. I’ve read WAY too many horror stories from woman and men who haved been incredibly deceived.
And I think all the “Happy couples” that you read about on the front page is ALL hype! They’re probably in the “Honeymoon Stages” and just haven’t figured out how disordered their lover is because the mask of illusion is firmly in place.
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OxDrover says:
Jane you are so right on!
My son, C, met his Cyber-bride on the Internet–THE ONE WHO TRIED TO KILL HIM after milking him for a “meal ticket” for 8 years.
Another friend of mine (male) was very lonely after his second P wife cheated on hiim, (he did get the kids though) and met a “nice woman” on the Internet from Texas–he bought her a new car and she came to marry him, but…oh, by the way, she wasn’t going to move in with him until he finished remodeling his home, and oh, by the way, she would take the new car back to TExas…the “marriage” llasted 3 days. He kept the car, but she went back to texas and took out dozens of credit cards in his name…and he hasn’t gotten that mess straightened out yet.
Yep, you are right on.
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JaneSmith says:
Afternoon, OxD…and all readers…:)
See? Your own personal knowledge of dating websites is only proof positive how hazardous they are. I forgot to mention a few more characteristics that cause a person to be likely exploited:
highly sensitive
vulnerable
insecure
lonely
and….desperate, hungry for love & attention
These clever dating websites lure, woo the hopelessly romantic into believing their perfect partner is just a mouse click away. Of course, you must pay their ridiculous high membership fees to be able to communicate with your supposed beloved. It’s a big, fat scam is what it is. You see the commercials portraying happy, loving couples and you sadly think to yourself…”Why can’t that be me?!” They WANT you to take their bait sos they can grab your money.
I blame myself for being so out of touch with reality after I fled from Match. I had spent 2 years single & celibate, not dating anyone in this time, because I was doing some heavy duty soul searching and wanted to distance myself as far away as I could from any negative influences. After my experience with Match, I spent time researching the effects of dating websites on individuals. I would read forums from people who had HORRIBLE experiences and they were turned off to online matchmaking FOREVER. Many said it was easier and safer (hmm) to chat and make a connection with someone in their own town/city.
I also joined eharmony for about 5 minutes out of curiosity. That Doctor dude said it was “scientifically proven” to match you with your most perfect ideal mate. What a joke! What that website does is takes away your freedom, your choice to peruse profiles, to glance at pictures and sends you the profiles they consider appropriate for you. No way! This isn’t Orwell’s 1984 where my life is arranged, choreographed by Big Brother and my personal freedom is abolished! Uh-Uh!
If I sound peeved, you better believe I am! I think it’s sick to seduce normal, healthy, maybe love starved people into thinking that all their wishes, hopes and dreams will be majically discovered if they join that stupid website and pay that stupid fee!
I urge anyone who is reading this to please don’t even think about online dating. It hurts, and it hurts alot!
Except if your predator, then I guess you probably have VIP status.
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Beverly says:
I tried online dating briefly a few months last year, and I enrolled on about 3 different sites free of charge, but didnt have much luck anyway, I got lots of ‘hits’ from men who wanted to put me on their favourites list and collect my picture, but none of them wanted to actually date me??? I also got many hits from men in their 20s and 30s, and I am 55, so it just seemed a big waste of time to me, so I withdrew my profile.!!
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James says:
I tried one site in the Chicago (paid site) area. Found one person who I went on a kind of date with. But no real chemistry between us sorry to say. Not sure if I will try again on a pay site. But who know?
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JaneSmith says:
Good for you, Bev! *high five*
It may not seem like a big deal to you by me being relieved you didn’t stick around the online dating jungle, but it IS!
I’ve read bunches of your comments and I would have to say that you are a very sweet, intelligent, caring woman. And it’s just too dangerous for women and men who possess those admirable qualities. Predators immediately target people like us, probably salivating with delight thinking were a succulent, tasty treat for their self-serving, malicious appetites. So scary and creepy.
And I’m not familiar with free sites. I’ve only checked out a few and some offered “free trial memberships”. Anyway, they all make me nervous and that doesn’t seem to be a logical state to be in when seeking a suitable mate.
James…be VERY careful. That’s all I’m going to say. No matter how wonderfully discerning you think you are, how much you trust your judgement to be sound, even if your a superb psychic able to actually see the auras of people…..The predators are masters at their game. It’s taken many of them YEARS to perfect different strategies and tactics designed exclusively for each unsuspecting victim. I know this because I’ve found evidence all over the internet pertaining to their “Skills at deception”.
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Sorrow says:
48 hours ago I was still inclined to give my P the benefit of the doubt. I have looked up several diagnozis on the internet, I even considered that he might be a socalled “Highly Sensitive Person” who had difficulties administrating his sensitivity. I mailed him some links on that one – asking him he recognized anything there?
Last night I called him on the phone and I cried and I was quite honest about my bewiledered thoughts and my pain and suffering. When we’d spoken for a moment he asked, if he could call me back in two minutes? I said yes, though I found it strange, that he should cut me off at just that moment. I started wonedring if someone ells was there with him. Then he called back, and I am certain I heard the sound of a door closing in his kitchen. (His phone is placed in the livingroom.)
I kept telling him how bad I felt begging him to answer my many questions. He said “hmm” and “do you really feel this bad?” and then suddenly he’d shift and ask me: “Are you drunk?”
He very well knows that I can not get drunk, I’m too sensitive to take in that much alchohol. I told him the thruth: That I had had 1 glass of wine with my dinner. And I wondered if he was putting on a show for whoever might be there with him. The show of “my terrible alchoholic ex”. Remember that he has told me about some alchoholic he claimed to have lived with?
I got no answers at all. At some points he – entirely out of kontext – asked me, how my son was doing and how my former daughter in law (whom he knows I dislike as she has given me hell over and over again untill I cut her off) was doing?
Finally he asked me, if he could call me back tomorrow (today). I agreed to that but within seconds after hanging up I got so angry for his slipping off once more that I called him back just to tell him that I’d heard that door in the kitchen and that I was certain he was not alone. “There’s nobody here”, he said.
Well, I don’t know. I may have been mistaken. I found out this morning that he’d been visiting his profiel on the datingsite again last night some hours after we’d spoken. On the other hand, he could easily do that after some visitor had gone to bed.
Today I chose to call him myself, as I would not hang around waiting for him to call at his convinience. Once again he wanted to call me back in a few minutes. Which he did.
Then there was a long silence. He could sense on my hello that I was angry. Finally! He said: “So what do you want me to say?”
I said: “Well – the truth would be nice for once!”
Silence!
Then I started asking exact questions: Where had he been at this time and at that time? Why had he not broken up with me sooner if he had not been truely interested in me in the first case? Why had he chosen to increase his compliments and invitations instead of fading it out. (Being a simple coward he might at least have done that, so I could have had an idea about which way the wind was blowing!)
“Well, I cannot answer that”, he said ” things are not always rationel”. I told him, that at least he could have shared his thoughts and feelings with me – however ambivalent they might have been. He started slipping and sliding again. Then I told him exactly what I had not wanted to believe. I told him that now I DO believe he has been leading me on all along and that he has felt fun and excitement doing that. I told him, that I had had the heart time after time to look the other way, to make up excuses for his terrible lies, because I am a goodhearted woman. Not naive – but simply moral and goodhearted, wanting to believe the best about my significant other. I told him that apparently he was not good enough for me after all. That if I could believe anything at all about the things he had told me, I could not see it any differently than he has following in his father’s footsteps. That he must dislike women immensely since he can treat a woman so badly.
Along the way his voice sounded more and more cold when he answered “hm” and “yes”.
I said to him that back then in january when he went “missing” for three days without calling he had given me different accounts for his whereabouts. I said: “I’m sure that you were with somebody ells”. He did not refuse that.
I said: “That day when you were three hours late you were probably with some woman”. Reluctantly he said “yes”, in the way that a small kid would admit to something, when put under pressure. (Just think about this: The evening before that, he had asked me to chop some would for the fireplace while he was away doing his job. I did chop his wood. I did do his dishes. And all the time he was screwing around.)
I told him that I had known about his visits on the datingsite, but that I had imagined we would eventually sort it out. I told him that I had been willing to forgive him his mistakes but to me it seemed by now that it had all been one big fraud from the very start. He told me then that he would not go into details because he did not want to hurt me. I said: “You couldn’t possibly hurt my feelings any more than you have done already!”
I said: “I can only hope that I haven’t catched any venerial diseases from being with you”. “Oh, I wonder!” He said.
(Actually I have been to the doctor and thank you God my HIV-test was negative. – But I must admit that I consider having it done a second time some months from now, to be absolutely certain that kissing him on the lips hasn’t harmed me – But I would not tell him that. Let him shake for a bit. Well, he probably doesn’t.)
I told him that I could see now that when he played The Doors “Wintertimelove” for me the first time we spent a weekend together he probably already had it all planned. This was to him a wintertimething and nothing more. He had also time and again sung Leonard Cohen’s “Who by fire?” So I guessed, I said, that he had carefully planned that I should be run over and dumped during “the merry, merry month of may” as it says in the song. This is sickening, I told him. He had no response to that except his usual “hmm”.
Finally I told him that I was pretty sure that this young female student of his had something to do with his repetative mentionings about how attractive young lean bodies are and that his continuos talk about how clever she was had let me to believe that something was going on there. Then all of a sudden he sounded as if his voice had been iced and he said: “Let’s stop it right here, I have work to do!”
I said: “Yes, I also think we should stop right here and right now. You can sent me the stuff I have laying around at your place!” And then we hung up.
He may just sent me my things to show me that I’m out of his life. Somehow I would like it if he didn’t. Then I’d have an excuse to contact his sister and ask her to get me my things and then I could tell her what he has been up to. Not that it might change a whole lot. She might know or suspect these things already. But I think that she liked me when we met, and at least she has the power to put him out of the house that he is renting now in those beautifull hills. She owns half of the property, he owns the other half, and for now they have an agreement that he pays her a small amount each month to compensate for the fact that she cannot use the house while he is staying there.
Yes, I do want to make him suffer!
I called my son’s father to tell him all this. He kept telling me: “Oh, this doesn’t sound all that unusual to me. The poor sodd probably hasn’t known what he was up to.” I could not accept that. “Well, for sure” my ex-husband said “you havn’t deserved this, but I do not think that he intentionally wanted to harm you. He is probably just a coward.”
Cowardism, as I see it, is NOT a legitimite excuse for this behaviour. I don’t know how many times I have been doing piles of dishes with him when I went to his house. Dishes that he claimed were left there from the last time I visited, because he’d been too busy. And the few times when he told me he was going to have a friend or most often his sister over the day after I’d left, I would volunteer to help him clean his house.
He must have had his kicks out of me. “You are so funny” he used to say to me. I was enchanted thinking about Streisand and Funny Face. Now I know just HOW funny I must have been. And all the time he played songs for me like Beatles’ “Don’t let me down” and “That long and winding road”.
Somewhere ells on this blog I read about the idea of “Snapshots” – those magical moments that let us forget everything ells we know to be true. He was a master at creating those. So gentle, so polite, so tender and into nature and stuff. I have my own blog in Danish, and I used to write in public about these moments there, and my readers would compliment me and tell how beautifull it all was. He said to me “Oh, it’s like being there again, you experience everything in such a powerfull way!”
Yes, apparently I do. At least compared to his ability to experience, to live and to love.
During our conversation I managed to tell him that he must have a very pittyfull small life since he has to abuse women in this way in order to get his kicks. I’m glad I told him. Hopefully just a little bit will penetrate into his dark soul. He used to associate himself with “Billy Budd”, the good sailor who ends up hanging because he’s being misunderstood. Even now a tiny bit of me shivers because a small voice inside me says: What if you did misunderstand him?
But during this breakup I must confess that what I have come to know about him is closer to Dr. Jekyll and mr. Hyde than it is to Billy Budd.
He was screwing around while he was assuring me about his feelings for me. He was screwing around while I helped him prepare wood for the fireplace for the coming fall and winter. He was screwing around while I was cleaning his house and doing the dishes that he may or may not been using in the company of some other woman – be it one of those callgirls he was so interested in talking about or his female student or someone from the datingsite.
I feel so run over. I’d almost wish that I was a bit more like him – even just for a small while. Then I’d go and burn his house down. I want to slender his name all over the place. I want to warn other women on the Internet partly so they don’t get hurt and partly to put an end to his little games. But in Denmark the law does not allow you to tell such stories mentioning somebodys name.
Do I hate him? I’m not sure. I still find it hard to find this feeling. I feel like getting back at him, and I feel dirty physically and psychologically, and I feel extremely sad and used and teart. How can someone so beautiful and so wonderfull turn out to be such a bad seed?
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holywatersalt says:
Sorrow-
You are wasting your time. Do you want someone like that?
You need to get through this. Start with one activity for YOU.
Please go No Contact. I say this straight:life is short, he’s using you and feeding on your pain. You will NEVER get closure from him, ever.
It’s up to you to make it stop.
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James says:
“James…be VERY careful. That’s all I’m going to say. No matter how wonderfully discerning you think you are, how much you trust your judgement to be sound, even if your a superb psychic able to actually see the auras of people…..The predators are masters at their game. It’s taken many of them YEARS to perfect different strategies and tactics designed exclusively for each unsuspecting victim. I know this because I’ve found evidence all over the internet pertaining to their “Skills at deception”.
Words to live by! Thanks..
But I also know that if I don’t take the chance on meeting new people, then I will never meet anyone. My ex P took many things from me.
Self-respect
Self-esteem
The ability to trust others
The ability to trust my self.
Well, there is more of course!
Anyway. I know I need to reclaim these. I will not allow her to take anything else from me. I will be strong. Have set and define boundaries. Making know what my personal boundaries
are in each person I will meet. One thing that each of our ex-P’s wants more then anything is to see us alone and single for the rest of our lives. I feel it’s our duty to make sure this doesn’t happen. We know we all have the ability to love other. We loved a dysfunctional, toxic person. We try over and over again to make this dysfunctional, toxic relationship work against all odds. But of course we failed. But our failure lays in the fact these type of relationship never really work anyway. We all gain something from this toxic experience! We gain the knowledge of the why and what’s concerning not only them, but ourselves as well. Anything that is learned but never put to use is it’s self-wasted. Let’s not waste this. Instead put it to use and learn to love again! I know this is what I must do. What I will do.
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OxDrover says:
James,
After a lifetime failing to set boundaries, letting myself be used and feeling bad because I didn’t want to hurt the user’s feelings by setting a strict boundary, I am LEARNING, but it is still difficult. Especially if you have enabled them very much or for very long, as they come to EXPECT your enabling and feel ENTITLED to your enabling.
It would be like (small example) you pass by aj bum on the street and you give him a dollar every day as you go to work, then one day you see him coming out of the liquor store with a bottle and so you decide that he is spending his money, the money you gave him, on booze which you think is bad for him and that he should have spent the money on food instead. So the next day you pass by him and don’t give him any money. He says “Hey, buddy, where’s my buck”? and you say “Well, I saw you coming out of the liquor store yesterday and I wasn’t giving you money to buy booze with so I won’t give you any more money again.”
He looks at you and says “Who the heck are YOU to tell ME how to spend MY money? Now, where’s my buck?”
Sometimes, in our genuine efforts to “help” someone we become enablers –giving them money to buy booze—so our attempt at helping them only enables them to do things that hurt them, but they expect us to continue since they have counted on and expected us to continue to give to them, they see no reason we should stop. Most of us are compassionate people and caring and genuinely like to help others, and that is USED AGAINST US by the users and abusers. However, we must have the courage to set boundaries. To tell the person who expects and demands us to continue to enable them to behave inappropriatedly and for us to “pick up the slack” for the consequences of their poor behavior, and poor choices.
When you start to see that enabling is a toxic behavior on your part and that your attempt and well meaning “help” is making the situation worse because the person is not learning from the consequences of his/her behavior as YOU are covering the consequences, you must be prepared for the relationship to end when you set SOLID BOUNDARIES. They will be angry at you for setting these boundaries because they feel “entitled.” And they don’t have to be a full blown psychopath or narcist to feel this way. Just dysfunctional people who would rather take than give, who become “entitled” to have someone else take care of their needs. Sometimes they have just been “spoiled” as children by their parents into this mind set.
My mother programmed me to be the next family “enabler” when she passed on, letting the persons who were “bad actors” push the responsibility and consequences of their behavior off on to my shoulders. It has been a struggle but I am learning to SET boundaries. NO Contact is the first boundary. It was difficult at first. Now it is easy.
Now I have had another situation come up in which I am going to have to set what will amount to a “no contact” situation with some people whose friendship I have valued for a long time and that my son has valued their friendship most of his life, and my husband loved the man of the couple like a son, but my “attempt to help” them became ENABLEMENT and when I set a FIRM boundary, they will I am sure become so enraged at my “cold heartedness” that the relationship will end. I hate that, because that is not what I want, but it is what I MUST DO.
I have been “mulling this over” for several days now in deep thought and grief about ending this relationship, because I have NO doubt that it will END. Today I sat down with my son D and explained to him what I intended to do and WHY. I know it hurt him, but at the same time, he is in agreement that it is the RIGHT thing to do, I had the same talk with son C over the phone yesterday and he is also in agreement with me. It is very unpleasant to me to have to do this, but they have NOT respected other boundaries I have set and aren’t likely to change their behaviors. It, like much using and abusing, isn’t ONE big incident, but a continual drip drip drip of small and tiny incidents that are like fingernails on a black board, just a continual irritant and source of stress that I do not NEED OR WANT. I dread the confrontation because I know in my heart that they will not SEE anything except malice in my boundary….but that can’t be helped, it isn’t my responsibility to “take them to raise.” So, I’ve just got to bow my back, put on my “big girl panties” and do what has to be done. It still hurts, because it is ALL SO UNNECESSARY.
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lostingrief says:
great. the idiot i was with was both narcissist AND a sociopath. he told me he ‘didn’t know’ why he didn’t want me sexually after he met his new conquest. i guess — in his narcissist view — i was expendable. and in his sociopath view, he could always manipulate me again if he chose … “you’ll always be there no matter what i do.”
AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
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Beverly says:
LostIGrief. Some people say that they are VERY conscious of what they do, because they have worked it out and done it before and they know the likely consequences. Alot of them play mind games with sex, I had it played on me, he used sex to manipulate me big time, telling me I really did it for him, then me finding out he was flirting with women under my nose. Yes he could have had what he wanted and more, but he didnt stick round long enough to benefit. His Loss.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lost,
All Ps are Ns, but not all Ns are Ps.
The psychopath thinks that they “own” you, you are their property and therefore you cannot truly “escape” them.
I remember the old saying “If you love something, set it free, if it comes back to you, it is yours, if it does’t come back, it never was” and that saying was changed around to TH EPSYCHOPATHIC VERSION, “if you love (OWN) something set it free if it doesn’t come back, HUNT IT DOWN AND KILL IT”
Lost, you are right in your assessment of his thinking, I think. He could “always get you back if he wanted” so he hadn’t “lost” you at all, you were still his puppet.
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lostingrief says:
Six-plus years, thousands of dollars, untold infidelities … and he would always tell me that ”no one wants you!” i guess he didn’t either. He called me yesterday and I asked him why he thought he could get away with the affair forever (she’s pregnant remember), and he told me, “because i know you’d take me back no matter what i did.” well, those days are over.
god, i’m so furious … at him for being such a dog-pig, at me for being so stupid.
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alohatraveler says:
To Sorrow,
I read most of your story but I need to go back and finish it. I think your guy was a Sociopath and not a Borderline. I am sure my ex was a Borderline. Borderlines are very vicous. I can’t imagine being with a Borderline and not having an arguement.
Your guys “kindness” is very smooth and manipulative. It was sickeningly sweet and I can see why you are so confused. But like another reader said, there were too many red flags to note. But if he was a Borderline, you would have been under constant attack. This is the trademark of a Borderline.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lostingrief,
I know tha tyou would like to “tell that jerk off” and make h im understand that you will NOT TAKE HIM BACK, but the ONLY WAY to accomplish that and make it stick is to go NO CONTACT with him. Believe it or not, he enjoys you telling him off because you are at least noticing him, giving him attention, and that is what he wants more than anything is to BE NOTICED, to realize he has “zinged” you good. Hee hee
But, if you REFUSE TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM AT ALL, he will be frustrated, angry, upset that you are NOT NOTICING HIM. You will have TAKEN CONTROL of the situation AWAY FROM HIM. It sends them through the roof, it is the ONLY WAY we can actually “punish” them. They just cannot stand to be IGNORED.
Take back YOUR CONTROL of YOU, and that will “punish” him the ONLY way they can feel “pain.” It is all about CONTROL and he really does think you are so “needy” that you will take him back no matter what—but he is in for a RUDE SUPRISE when you “cut him off at the knees” by even refusing to talk to him or listen to him. I think most if not all of the veterans here will back me up on this NO CONTACT thing.
I KNOW how hard it is not to want to tell them off one last time, and then anotehr last time, etc. BELIEVE ME I know it is HARD, but it is the only way to go. Every time you talk to them, they get “supply” and you get “another wound.” ((((hugs))))
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lostingrief says:
thanks oxdrover… i’m new to this insanity. well, actually, i guess i’m not! his stuff is here, his books, CDs, toothbrush, clothes in the closet. i WANT to cut him off, but how do i? since his new girlfriend is ”gorgeous and rich” i suppose i can throw everything in the garbage and she can just buy him new crap. ignoring him is an interesting twist since his m.o. when he wanted control was to simply ignore me. made me crazy crazy crazy! i don’t know if there is anyplace left to wound, but every time i thought he couldn’t do something worse, he managed. so, thanks for the advice.
you are all wonderful. i just can’t believe we’ve all experienced this madness. i still feel that somehow, i’m the bad one here. is that common too? i wasn’t good enough, pretty enough, thin enough, helpful enough, loving enough and of course, that’s why he went off with someone ”with style … just like me.”
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lostingrief,
If you had been Miss Universe, you would not have been “good enough” or “pretty enough” to make him faithful or make him love you. Darling, HE IS NOT ABLE TO LOVE, he can only FAKE IT.
That is what they do. What they are.
YOU ARE NOT CRAZY. He is not crazy, he is MEAN, MEAN AND EVIL AND HATEFUL. HE WANTS TO WATCH AND HEAR YOU SUFFER.
As for his stuff I would suggest that you text or e mail him and tell him it will be sitting on your porch on X date, at X time and that he has to come get it within 4 hours of the time or it will be hauled away in the garbage. DO NOT BE HOME when he comes, or if you are, make sure it looks like you are not home (car hidden) doors locked, etc. and if you stay home DO NOT ANSWER THE DOOR.
“IGNORING THEM” is called “NO CONTACT” and it means NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZERO. No matter how much they bang on your door, you do not open it. YOu do not talk to anyone who wil give him information either. No e mails, no texts, NOTHING.
That takes CONTROL away from him, and it drives them bananas. They can’t stand it that YOU ARE IN CONTROL OF YOURSELF. They have been in control for so long. They say “jump” and you do, but if you refuse to talk to them you can’t even HEAR their commands, and they get NO FEED BACK and they can’t stand that.
Oh, how I wanted to tell mine off, I would write letters and never mail them, I would SCREAM at him as I drove down the road in my car (alone) but no matter how much I wanted to tell him off, just ONE LAST TIME, I knew that if I did, it would PLEASE HIM. The last thing I wanted to do was to PLEASE HIM, so I maintained the NO CONTACT. Before I put NC into effect, everything I said or wrote to him came back to bite me in the A$$.
My dear, you have not doine anything wrong, you have been used, abused, manipulated, lied to and mistreated beyond belief. The reason he tells you that you are “worthless” is because HE IS WORTHLESS and he is “projecting” his own self on to you.
YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON, A WORTHWHILE PERSON, WHO IS CAPABLE OF LOVE AND GOODNESS, he is an evil, rotten bastard who cannot love—Really, they are INCAPABLE of bonding to other humans, it is a “short circuit” in their brains, this is not just the way they act, they are HARD WIRED TO BE THIS WAY. Read about it on some of Dr. Leedom’s articles. Their brain is wired different from ours and they are not capable of caring for others. It is all about them.
Learning what and who they are is lots of work, there is lots of information about them just on this blog, but there are other books etc too. “The Sociopath Next door” is a good one, and Dr. Robert Hare’s “Without conscience” are too good ones. They are available on Amazon and half.com and can usually be had used pretty cheap.
btw:Psychopath=sociopath=Anti Social Personality disorder. There is some arguments about which name is the “right” one but essentially all you need to know is that they are about the same—a Narcissist is also self centered and TOXIC, but not usually quite as bad as a psychopath. But Psychopaths are not all serial killers, they are doctors, lawyers, the guy next door. Learning as much as you can and about understanding the “train that came out ofno where and hit you” will help you resolve your pain, and help you heal, and will protec tyou in the future from falling prey to another one. Many of us on here have fallen prey to these predators and vampires over and over. They operate almost out of a “play book” and there are RED FLAGS to help pyou spot them before yo are HOOKED IN by them. Learning this is probably the most valuable “school” you will ever go to. This is a class you have already enrolled in.
My late husband used to say “Life is a tough teacher, she gives the test first, and then the lesson.” Don’t flunk this lesson or you will have another test and I think you already know you dont’ want that. ((((hugs))))
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lostingrief says:
i’m kinda speechless.
however, i have been reading this blog, articles, commentary, segments of books online, etc. for hours a day since this happened — and along with the support of y’all — i’ve been able to do pretty well, considering. i got the basics down … intellectually speaking. but my heart and spirit are just stunned as hell.
i perceive it as the amorphous horror that it is, but i don’t understand for a second what precipitated it. and another thing, what the HELL is he so angry at ME for!?! LOL … it’s ludicrous. i never did ANYTHING to him … EVER!
geezus.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lost,
They don’t need a REASON to hate you.
It is much easier to get this in your head intellectually than it is emotionally and you can expect to bounce upand down, back and forth, one minute rational and reasonable, the next minute out of your head again wanting him back. That’s the thing that blows us all away.
Just keep in mind that YOU ARE NOT CRAZY–but you may have some thoughts that are. LOL Not making fun of you at all, just letting you know that your head and your heart, though only 15 or so inches apart may not be “together” on what to do or what to think. It is a long trip that 15 inches.
Just as we can almost “predict” what tactics they will use, it is almost as much the same with us, we go through the same stages of “grief” and back and forth and back and forth, and if you hang in there until you get to the “easy” part, you will come out a wiser, stronger and more wonderful person for all the pain that they have put you through. It won’t be a total loss.
Most of the “veterans” of the P-experience that have been at this “healing” for some time are in many ways “improved” for the awful experience. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy, but at the same time, it is a good chance for us to take a look at what it is about us that made us vulnerable to them.
No one deserves to be treated like they have treated us, that’s for sure. NO ONE. But why did they pick us? What is it about us that makes them do this to us and us not “raise a ruckus?” Kick them to the curb (until now)?
Some people stay in these relationships for decades before breaking free and “seeing the light”—why? Did we think we could fix them? Or that they would be like they were at the “first” honey moon stage?
I saw a news show tonight about a girl who was murdered. The cops don’t have her killer. But I “know” who did it. Just because of the way her friends described her BF and the “over the top sex” she had with this guy—how it was soooo wonderful, because that is one of the things they use (plus this guy was also a former Special forces so he said) guy. And a few other things. Of course I am sure the cops suspect him but they can’t prove it, but it fits the MO of the sociopath—the “honeymoon phase” and the “exciting sex” and then once the victims are hooked, the abuse. Not all ends in murder, but some small percentage do.
It is almost like you could “write a book” predicting the “stages” that they go through in the way they romance us, hook us, then cheat and lie, and use and abuse. There are some plot variations but not a great deal of them, as far as the Patterns of abuse go. It is like a broken record (if you are old enough to remember vinyl. I’m older’n dirt, so I remember them well!)
Keeo reading and learning, and LET YOURSELF FEEL YOUR EMOTIONS. Scream at him (when you are by yourself), write him nasty letters (and never mail them) do whatever makes you feel good. The main thing though is take care of YOURSELF. Be good to yourself. Don’t beat yourself up (we all do anyway) but you couldn’t have prevented this or foreseen it. Be angry, be sad, be mad, be upset, then rinse and repeat until your soul is clean. No instant fix, but you will get there if you stay at it long enough. The hurt and the shame and the pain and the anger, every emotion you can imagine, will go through you, but you will COME OUT STRONGER.
He will NEVER HEAL, he will never be normal, he will never have a real “relationship”–you will, because you can, he CAN’T.
Keep reading! Start screaming! LOL ((((Hugs))))
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lostingrief says:
Couldn’t sleep. Kept having dreams of him being his loving, child-like faux self. Him asking me, “but you said you LOVED me … then how could you leave me!?” He was furious with me, and I was standing there (still my dream) with my jaw on the ground!
Funny, the other day, when I last spoke with him, he told me that I MADE him go to his new girlfriend because I was being so critical of him. I said, “Yes, I was being critical of your OUTRAGEOUS behavior!” Well, he said, “but when you love someone you accept them unconditionally. You NEVER loved me!” So, now I’m feeling bad. Does he REALLY think I never loved him? Does he really think that after EVERYTHING I did for him (the list could circle the earth), my years and years of loyalty and faithfulness, that I didn’t love him? Or is this just another manipulation?
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blackrose says:
It’s manipulation. My exb manipulated me in ways nobody had done before. I am having a hard time forging myself for having been so naive, so much so that for the last few months I’ve been having some health issues that at first I could not explain, but now I realize it’s my unwillingness to forgive him. I don’t sleep well, nightmares almost every night, and I know that I allowing him to continue to hurt me. Any suggestions from the veterans on how we can deal with this?
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Tood says:
Dear lostingrief,
It’s manipulation. Blackrose is right. You didn’t make him do anything. Nothing you did or didn’t do would have made any difference.
Once you are able to practice real NO CONTACT, you’ll begin to recognize all the cheesy manipulative tricks they use. It’s like waking up from a deep sleep, like shaking off extreme grogginess. You’ll free yourself of an amazing amount of anxiety–anxiety you’ve gotten so used to carrying around that you don’t even realize it’s there much of the time.
And with time, the sleeplessness and nightmares will subside too. When I was with mine, I would wake up several times a night, crying out “Oh!,” just from waves of anxiety that would strike in my sleep. I was a walking, talking coiled spring of fear and trepidation. Now, I can sleep like a normal person. Heck, sometimes I can even take naps!
And for what it’s worth, mine told me I “made” him take up with not one, but two, 20-somethings because I had the audacity to throw him out. “You didn’t expect me to live ALONE, did you?,” he asked increduously. Isn’t that the funniest thing you ever heard?
Best of luck to you as you recover. I don’t have many suggestions on the sleeplessness, other than time and hard work. In time it gets better. Hard physical labor helped me work off some of the emotions and kept my mind occupied. When it was housework, it also had the added benefit of “washing that man right out of my hair,” so to speak. I have gone over my home with a fine-tooth comb at least twice since the split, the first time in a big general sweep to get rid of his stuff. And the second time, I’ve been getting rid of things that remind me of him (or us as a couple) and replacing them with things that are mine alone.
Work, study, reflect, post, take care of yourself and remember, above all, no contact.
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OxDrover says:
Hi, gang,
I loved the “unconditional love” bit! LOL My P-son (after trying to have me KILLED, and knowing about and condoning his SIL’s affair with his buddy, wrote a letter to a minister friend of the family’s saying how UN Christian we were because we would not longer write to him (read: send money) and that we OWED HIM UN-CONDITIONAL LOVE, and since we didn’t give him UN-conditional love, we were FALSE Christians! LOL
When my P-son became a stone cold killer, he lost the priviledge of my love. When he was an infant I loved him unconditionally, but when he reached the “age of reason” and chose to abuse others and abuse me, he lost the PRIVILEDGE of my love and my concern and my care. Love is not only a FEELING it is also an ACT. It means to do good to someone, not harm. “Love your enemies” doesn’t mean have a
SQUISHY FEELING for them, it means don’t do them harm, if you do anything, do good.
“Honor” your parents does not mean that I have to have a SQUISHY FEELING or do exactly what my P-bio-father says, but it means to become the kind of person that would bring HONOR to a parent of that person. I am becoming that kind of person, but I have no respect for the memory of my P-bio father. He was a psychopath. He hurt people for fun. He hurt me.
I am responsible for MY behavior, I am not responsible for anyone else’s behavior. Since the Ps do not WANT to be responsible for their behavior, they have to “place blame” on someone else’s actions, but not themselves. I will NOT assume that blame or responsibility. I will hold them accountable. Since they behave in an abominable manner toward me, treat me with malice, they do not have the priviledge of my company, my love, my concern, and THEY HAVE NO CONTACT. NC protects me from them. It gives me back control of myself. It gives me back my SELF-RESPECT.
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blondie says:
lostingrief, all of that is mulipulation. you x sounds like my x. My x would tell me i never love him. when i finally understood what he was doing it clicked. if you dont do what they want or dont fit into there standards, you dont love them. Your not Acting right! Thats all crap. They dont love us, b/c in a normal relationship, people hurt each other but you dont stop loving them, and you dont try to shape them into a person you want, you accept them for who they are. Those sociopaths want to shape us into who they want us to be. There Puppet!…Everytime my x was get drunk he would tell me. ” Im sorry for being such a D***”. it was like when he was drunk he would admit who is really is. it was true him being a Di**, and he knew it but he would never say that when he was sober. its like he knows who he is but when he is sober he hates that he is that person. he also would tell me, “I’m Different then most people and most guys”…Damn right he was. im telling you he knowes what type of person he is.
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blondie says:
i also forgot to say, i remember wthen the ex would threaten me by saying ” im going to cheat on you, just like i did in my last realtionship”. it was like he was confessing to all his cheating ways but tryin to blame me for his cheating ways. when he said those things to me, i would say you already are. and i was also say to him, wow what kinda of man says that to his girlfriend. the things he would say would blow my mind.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Blondie,
It is funny what alcohol does to people. First off it lowers your inhibitions and more of your “true self” comes out. When you are sober, you may be able to “keep up the act” better, but when you are drunk you let down that guard.
People say to me “oh, I didn’t mean it, I was soo drunk” well, to me, what you are when you are drunk is REALLY who you are, or would like to be but don’t have the courage when you are sober.
It’s funny about me. I don’t drink much (probably 2-3 times a year) and if I do have a couple too many, I am sooo happy, and I like to SING (sober, I know I can’t sing, but I would love to be able to LOL) I’m just a happy little tipsy old lady, laughing and joking, singing and dancing (can’t dance either!) But I know others that are “okay” when they are sober but boy, let them get a few too many and they become monsters!
The odd thing about my P XBF was he was a lot more pleasant when he was drunk than when he was sober—funny, that! He was a “secret” drinker, and kept bottles of vodka under his car seat (I CANNOT ABIDE PEOPLE WHO DRINK AND DRIVE) I didn’t actually catch on for quite a while that he was drinking continually. I wish I had known about his “secret” drinking (and DRIVING!!!) sooner I would have tossed him out just for that. My grandfather and two close friends were all 3 killed by drunk drivers, so my “penalty” for being caught driving drunk (or drugged) would be HANGING for the FIRST OFFENSE—no second chances! I don’t belong to MADD but I am definitely for that group.
My mother’s P-brother, Uncle Monster, was Ok when he was sober but when he was drunk, he was VIOLENT and psychopathic beyond belief. It was only after I was grown that I knew the horrible things he did to his wife and chilren and other women as well. I firmly believe the drunk Uncle Monster was the REAL man. The alcohol let his TRUE SELF show through without any inhibitions or constraint. But he was always careful, even when he was drunk, not to pick on someone who would FIGHT BACK, he was a total coward as well. No matter how drunk and nasty he got, he would avoid a fight that he might not win. Makes me think he still had some “control” over how he behaved even when he was looped.
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rperk6069 says:
I believe that drinking and driving is a very grave choice that some people make. People make mistakes. This is what makes people human. Alchohol does make alot of people lose their anhibitions and give them that superman feeling. I agree it is wrong. But I also believe that most people LEARN from their mistakes and do whatever they can to make it right, change their ways, and they have enough guilt from their mistakes to fill lakes to the brim. But if I see a “drunken bum” on the street, I wonder what circumstances happened in his/her life that was so awful, so hurtful, so very painful to make him/her to turn to alchohol, to forget, and to choose to live in an “unconcious state”. My heart goes out to that person and I truley feel sorry for them.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Perky,
You have more compassion and faith in human nature than I do about drunks and addicts. Drinking or taking drugs and getting behind the wheel is a CHOICE. That choice has consequences, not only for you but for others. Driving down the highway with 4,000 of steel DRUNK is to me the same as getting in a crowd and shooting a shot gun at random. You may or may not hit someone, but you are sure not doing a safe thing.
between 25,000 and 50,000 people DIE each year as a result of drunk drivers. Hundreds of thousands are injured or maimed. I worked for 5years with head and spinal cord inuries, people who would not wipe their own noses, or who could never speak or be independent again because of an auto accident, many of them alochol related. I have NO compassion for the person who CHOSES (for whatever reason) to drink and drive. Unfortunately, people who drink and drive SELDOM “learn from their mistakes.” To me it isn’t a “mistake” it is a BAD CHOICE.
On any give night in my state 10% of the drivers between 7 pm. and midnight are DRUNK. It goes to 20% on Friday and Saturday nights. Many of these drunk drivers see NOTHING WRONG with their driving drunk. “I can handle it, I’m a manly man” PUKE. There are court cases here where a guy drives drunk 6 times loses his license and STILL DRIVES DRUNK, and those are NOT rare cases.
“Most people learn from their mistakes”—-maybe, but drunk drivers seldom do. After working with the head inuries, spinal cord injuries and the amputation injuries of young healthy people who were injured by a DRUNK driver—Hanging is TOO good for them I think. Crucifiction might be more appropriate in MY OPINION. My friend that we buried on Christmas Eve 1979, was 21 years old, the man who was drunk and killed her (we had a closed coffin funeral because she was so torn up) got out with a broken leg. A year later, her father was side swiped by a drunk driver as he stood by his diabled car and we got to bury him too. Neither driver spent a day in jail, or even lost their licenses. The man who was drunk, ran a stop sign and killed my grandfather also did not lose his license or go to jail. Since he was drunk, his insurance was no good, and he couldn’t even be held liable for monetary damages, or the replacement of my grandfather’s totaled vehicle.
If all the TERRIBLE things that have happened to LF readers and bloggers happened and we don’t become drunk drivers, what excuses anyone for becoming a drunk driver? I chose NOT to become a drunk, or to drive drunk. I made a conscious choice not to EVER drive drunk. (or even drinking at all) I think you will agree I’ve had some pretty nasty things happen in my life, if I had chose to be a drunk, would that ecuse it? I don’t think so. Any more than the P-son of mine is a P because his dad and I were divorced. He is a murderer because he chose to be. He knows RIGHT from WRONG, he just doesn’t care, and is so arrogant that he thinks he will get by with it. Same with the drunk drivers. They all know it is wrong, against the law, etc. but they are arrogant and don’t care about right or wrong. BAD CHOICE for their victims. Bad choice for themselves too. Just MHO. (or is it my NOT so humble opinion? LOL) [can you tell I am passionate about this? Not meaning to offend anyone at all, but it is just my personal soap box]
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rperk6069 says:
You are correct in everything you said. I made 2 very very bad choices. I paid, I am paying, for the rest of my life I will pay. I wish I could turn my choices around. i cant. no matter how much i want to i just cant. so maybe i should have been one of the ones who is hung.
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henry says:
perky you got mail!!!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Perky, driving while drunk is a choice, in my opinion, not a “mistake”–but anything that we do our lives that is wrong, we can STOP doing it, repent that we ever did it, and never do it again.
I am NOT a “sin free” individual, I have made many many wrong, horrible choices, and I have done things that I KNEW WERE WRONG and did them anyway. The difference is that I repented, and made myself a promise that I would never do that again. Made up for it if I could. (amends). But I don’t excuse my bad acts by saying “well I had a tough life” and that’s why I did it. I knew it was wrong to do some of the things I have done in my life. I think almost every human in the world has done things they knew were wrong and chose to do them.
The difference between us is that WE STOPPED doing things we knew were unlawful, and dangerous and just plain wrong. We DO FEEL GUILT, and that guilt makes us feel bad about what we did. NOT EVERYONE FEELS GUILT….that’s the difference. The Ps don’t feel any guilt. They don’t therefore repent or change their ways. They do not feel remorse or sorrow. Even if they kill or hurt someone, it is “just too bad, they shouldn’t have been crossing the street at 2.a.m. (when I drove by drunk)”
My X BF-P thought it was “just fine” to drive drunk. He had no sorrow, no remorse and no guilt. It was his “right” to drive drunk as far as he was concerned. He didn’t thik it hurt his driving at all, after all He was a “manly man and I can hold my liquor.” NO GUILT, NO REMORSE—and the fact he hasn’t killed someone, even himself, is just pure luck.
I DIDN’T MEAN TO PUT YOU ON A GUILT TRIP, because I know you are NOT A P. Hon, we all do things that we know are wrong. I have, you have, so has everyone else in the world that I know of, but remorse and guilt stop us from doing these things as a life style. WE STOP DOING them. I just get so darned frustrated when I know that there are hundreds, thousands of people out on the highways day and night driving DRUNK and DRUGGED as a way of life. Without remorse or care. I’m not pointing a finger at you darling! (((perky))))
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takingmeback says:
I think there are quite a few things the that the N and P share. Besides the ease at which they lie, I believe there’s a fine line between the two. Both are capable of violence and both have no regard for others. I think Ns are better able to project a public image and mask things differently. But both are capable of homicide and that’s the most important thing to note, in my book. Both damaging and dangerous. Being the target of two Ns, each told me they wanted to kill me at one point. Nice, eh? One was outwardly violent, the other covert and plotting. Given enough narcissistic injury, they climb up that continuum towards more sever psychopathy. Seeing it as a continuum can help one understand the depths they can go to.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Takiingmeback,
I visualize the Ns and Ps as plotted points on a LINE, a continuum, from “one to 10″–with the self-centered but not really “dangerous” N as number 1, and Ted Bundy (for an example) as #10.
Ted Bundy was a monster of course, but he was also SO CUNNING and so bright. He could “keep up the mask” of normalcy so well, be so charming.
Of course not all Ps of a Level-10 are that charming, some of them are much less than charming and more openly violent. I think maybe the difference between the Level-10 who lives a “criminal lifestyle” in robbing banks and liquor stores and/or spends most of his life in prison, and the Crooked Politician who robs with a pen and likely never spends a day in prison is the place that “environment” comes into play, along with IQ, education, etc.
The P who grows up on the inner city streets and becomes a “gang lord” and the P who grows up in a moneyed family and is blessed with a high IQ and educational opportunity are only different in the way they behave outwardly and the “masks” they choose to wear. One is socially acceptable in mainstream ways and the other is a “social outcast” from mainstream society, but they are BOTH dangerous.
Of course there are “shades” in between level-1 and level-10, and in the “social acceptability” of their “lifestyle”—drug dealer or ENRON CEO—which is “worse”? Which does more damage? To me they are equal, but in some ways the “criminal” P is more likely to spend time behind bars and probably do less damage to innocent victims than the Level-10 who steals from corporations, tax payers, and mentally and physically abuses only his limited “nearest and dearest”—while keeping up his “mask”—
It’s also very sad that growing up in a family populated by abusive Ns and/or Ps accept victimhood as “normal” and “our due.” Breaking free of that double whammy is difficult, but I am seeing that here on LF every day, and also in my own mirror.
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