ASK DR. LEEDOM: Are there psychological tactics for dealing with a psychopath?
PDF I received this question from a woman who is divorcing a man she believes has the traits of a psychopath (according to the psychopathy checklist):
“What psychological tactics can you suggest in dealing with a psychopath? There must be some tools and strategies to stay a step ahead. I’ve read books on identifying liars and tried to educate myself on strengthening my position in recognizing The Predator. There has to be some guidelines somewhere on How to Ride That Horse. I have had hundreds of horses throughout my life and pride myself on being able to ride anyone that crosses my path. Although this horse has been the most difficult and I continue to be dragged, trampled and kicked, I continue to get back up, dust myself off and try again. I have learned much and he has been a great teacher…..but in the final stages of our divorce, he is throwing some wild curve balls and I’m desperately trying to stay in the saddle. I ride all my horses softly, gently…..Can you offer tools for the arsenal?”
Before answering this question I want to make some important comments. Many people have reasons for needing and desiring relationships with people who are very sociopathic/psychopathic (sociopaths). In my view, there are only two legitimate reasons for having interactions with someone you believe may be “a sociopath.” The first is that the person is your boss and you haven’t yet found another job, and the second is that there is a court order commanding you to. That the sociopath is charming, attractive, wealthy, your son, daughter, friend, lover, mother, father or some other relation, is not a good enough reason to risk yourself and others.
Whenever you interact with a sociopath, you not only risk yourself, you risk others. Sociopaths weave a web of deception that is supported by the many relationships they have. If people refuse to participate in the sociopath’s life he/she will be very limited in his/her ability to harm anyone. Sociopaths/psychopaths know how to surround themselves with people who give them legitimacy in the minds of others and who serve as “cover.” They will use anyone for this purpose, especially ministers, priests and rabbis, and of course, children.
If you desire to have a relationship with a known sociopath there is something wrong with you. That something can be ignorance of the disorder and its dangerousness. A sense of grandiose invincibility and a love of risk taking can also feed into this desire. If you are an adventurous risk-taker, take up blizzard mountain exploration or sky diving, but keep away from sociopaths. Many people write me with a tone of wonder, awe and admiration for sociopaths. Save your wonder, awe and admiration for the Grand Canyon, the pyramids of Egypt, or the true miracles of life, please. (Here I am referring also to the women who send love letters to known killers and serial killers.)
Those comments out of the way, how can you cope successfully with a sociopath/psychopath? First, remember that these people are Driven to Do Evil. Just like you wake up every day and feel your drives and desires, sociopaths/psychopaths wake up every morning and “It’s show time!” Whereas your goals are intimately related to the love and compassion you feel for others, a sociopath’s goals are intimately related to his/her desire to gain power over others. If you don’t understand this at the core of your being, you will not be able to deal with sociopaths. Second, imagine a moment what your life would be like if guilt, empathy and compassion did not enter into your decision making processes. Imagine that your decisions were based solely on your judgments regarding what would benefit you.
Now imagine both together, a Drive to Do Evil and no guilt, empathy or compassion. A sociopath is a sports car with an accelerator and no braking system. Now you can see why I say only an ignorant, crazy or suicidal person would voluntarily choose to ride this horse, or drive this car!
I have just armed you with the mental picture of the sociopath who you are compelled to deal with. To successfully cope, keep this picture in your mind at all times. Ignore any of the sociopath’s actual appearance or behavior. Keep all conversations brief and to the point. Set firm boundaries and never give an inch. Insist that you get everything due you, and that the sociopath abide by his/her end of any court orders, or job descriptions. Most importantly, STOP expecting that the sociopath will behave like anyone other than who he/she is. A sociopath is a person who is Driven to Do Evil and who lacks, guilt, empathy and compassion.
To make this point further, let us consider our friend’s analogy of the psychopath and our relations with him/her to the horse and horseback riding. Horses are domesticated animals. Domestication means they have been bred to have the capacity for submissive behavior and impulse control. These two (submissive behavior and impulse control) are supported by a very complicated biology that includes hormones and brain structure. The psychopath lacks both the brain structure and hormonal profile to behave submissively or even consistently cooperatively. The best horse analogy to the sociopath is the horse who dies in the process of being ridden because s/he lacks the substrate for domestication. This horse is not a challenge, s/he is a waste of time and energy.
So stick with the horses that have been beautifully trained to compete in the show ring, and who lovingly wait by the fence for you to appear. These horses enjoy cooperation and don’t mind having to submit occasionally. The untrainable horses are a complete waste of time. Surround yourself with people you know to be primarily motivated by love and compassion. To do otherwise, is a complete waste of time and energy.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
newstepmom says:
I didn’t know which post to add my question to, but, in a recent conversation with my husband’s ex-wife, she brought up there being a “genetic tie” to her kids [with him] regarding their picking up her lying traits. … This has me wondering, given neither my husband nor I have said anything to her using those words, how much she might have diagnosed herself, while, of course, she continues lying and twisting everyone’s words into her standard manipulation technique [that I've seen so far, anyway].
Can I ask this somewhere else more appropriate to this, about how much self-awareness any -paths have? I was really surprised to hear her use the lying-genetic association….
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Ox Drover says:
dear Newstepmom,
Just post your questions anywhere…
Yes, there are genetic links with psychopathic traits….as far as HER awareness of this…(shoulders shrugging here) I’m not sure how aware she is or how she phrased it to you–
“My kids are like me and they also lie?”
So I’m not sure just exactly what she indicated. In general, I would say that psychopaths and narcissists are NOT really self aware in the way that empathetic people are. They do not “search themselves” to try to improve their relationships with others…but they do observe us to see how we can be manipulated.
I would strongly suggest that you LIMIT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE your conversations with this woman. The more you say to her the more ammo she has to turn against you. I wouldn’t be “rude” but just AVOID her as much as possible…be “superficially polite” but BORING and more BORING “Gray rock” her. Don’t have any opinions around her. If she says “The sky is so nicely sunny” and you look out and see it is POURING RAIN, do NOT contradict her, just say something like “thanks for pointing that out” or something else along that line.
If she comes in naked and asks if you like her new dress—”Oh, yes, it is just YOU!”
Be careful around the kids, especially when she is around, and don’t say anything to them or let them over hear anything you do NOT want to be in her ears the next day. She WILL pump the kids for information about you and your husband, your finances, and your lives. Don’t give her ammunition.
If the kids ay “Mom lets us do that” you can reply, “well, your mother isn’t here now, and this is my responsibility, so this is the way we do it at YOUR DAD’S HOUSE.” If your husband is around, you might have HIM talk to the kids, rather than them be instructed by you, so that you stay out of the “middle” between her and the kids as much as possible. I know that isn’t going to be 100% but she will do everything she can to sabo your relationship with the kids and their dad.
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newstepmom says:
Hi Ox Drover, thank you! … yeah, I don’t really ever speak with her. Unfortunately however, I am stay at home stepmom, and she the control queen [of course], so sets up EVERYTHING. While she really needs to copy me on scheduling changes, she has [of course] refused to do so, so it’s up to my husband to tell me things, and he is eternally swamped at work. I had to laugh at this recently though, one kid showed up here, not having seen anyone to pick this kid up at school, and crazy-Mom calls me to ask if I told this kid who’d be picking him up after school! It was kind of… perfect. I noted something like, “I think this is why I have asked to be notified about scheduling.” She refuses to let me know, and then tries to blame me for the kid not seeing the right car. It’s so absurd it’s funny, almost. But for her belligerence and hostility.
Anyway, I heard her use the “genetic”-lying link by hearing her say to my husband, “You keep saying the lying [which we see in one kid] is genetically linked to me. You are trying to take the kids away from me.” Which of course we are not trying to do, but what I found very interesting is that she used that word, “genetically” re this lying, which my husband had that weekend just brought up to her as being a problem, in terms of setting a good example, with one kid in particular. Given SHE used the word, even though I’ve read about that connection and genetic-connection possibility, I just wondered how much about what she may or may not be -path-wise. I have a smidge of interest in knowing if she sees this in herself, if possible [though I can see it would be impossible to hear this from her mouth, if she does know]. I just found it way “coincidental” that she used that word when my husband nor I have used that word with her about her lying and her passing this behavior on to one of the kids [at least / so far].
My husband is way less in tune with the stuff I’ve been researching about this, and he’s not even all that interested. He notes that he has “made it work,” which has basically been saying yes to her every request since their divorce. Which for me is mostly fine except that she has actually gotten into his + my plans on several occasions, as well as our plans with the kids a number of times. That part is no good, and the husband claims he won’t let it happen again. My fingers are crossed.
From what I have read, I see that it will never end, her lunacy will never be sated, so that it ends. I am fearing how much she will attempt to escalate. We have seen it recently over nothing, relatively, which, while it makes me laugh because she is actually using the word “legal” and there is no legal basis regarding anything she’s mentioning, it does make me at least a smidge afraid for the future. And I see how it does influence my husband and gets him to do some jumping, and at least tempering/replying.
Most of their interactions are email, which is good in terms of documentation. He does seem to know that she is absurd and needs to be treated [by him] as if a dangerous person in a looney bin, with kid gloves. He calls it “hurricane avoidance,” but I can see his perspective. She will put us down however she can with the kids, but, what can you do about that? It seems like there’s not really much, and just count on the kids to grow up to see things as they are.
Your advice to simply keep our things to ourselves, which has been what I have been asking my husband to do regarding all of my details since moving here, to avoid the kids saying anything, so hopefully that will stick, with my husband. He notes he doesn’t see the point, so that’s why I would appreciate very much if he would take enough interest to learn more about it, in terms of his kids anyway, I would think he would be somewhat compelled.
But thank you again for your response, Ox Drover. I really do appreciate your advice. *Is there a particular spot on this site for “married to or into close proximity of spaths” ? Thanks again.
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darwinsmom says:
To the awareness question…
I think that spaths know they are different from most people. By the time they are adults, they’ve often heard remarks and reprovals for their lying, questioning about their lack of guilt…
So, they know. But they know in a way to see themselves as superior over everyone else: they are different, a superior human being who is not weakened by morality and feelings of guilt and empathy as the rest of the world is, who can walk amongst them and use them for their own pleasure and benefit without an afterthought.
And with an average intelligence, a spath who knows that they’ve allways been different even in their first memories, would nowadays logically assume it’s genetic, rather than suspecting they’re a changeling who the elfs dropped off
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Newstepmom,
No there’s no special place for a “category” of relationships with these people.
Basic learning about psychopaths in GENERAL will help ARM YOU against her manuvers though. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER and so you need to learn as much as you can about how they operate. There is a great deal of sameness in some of them, though NO TWO are exact.
I have a sperm donor who was before his death a psychopath, and a son who is one (in prison for murder) had a DIL who was before she went to prison, my sperm donor’s mother was one, and I have heard enough about her father to think he was one, and my egg donor’s brother and one of her grandfathers were definitely Ps….so even though my family was for the most part “upper middle class” and educated at college level, we had some real “white trash” when you looked behind the masks that they wore in public. My son is the first one to violate the law and GET CAUGHT as a “common criminal.” Several others should have gone to prison though for how they treated their wives and the rest of the family.
Psychopaths can be skid row bums, or they can be in the White House (read: Bill Clinton for one) or the governor’s offices of several states recently. They can be dumber’n'a rock, or have an IQ in the 99.9th percentile (again:read Bill Clinton)
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newstepmom says:
Hi darwinsmom and Ox Drover, I really appreciate hearing from you. … It’s clear that my situation, while alarming for me, isn’t nearly as unfortunate as those I hear from on this site as well as from my new friend in this new-to-me area who grew up with a spath mother.
Ox Drover, you are so surrounded it sounds like, so, what do you do then, in your interactions with all of these people in your life?
My husband essentially has “kept peace” with her by not allowing her hornets’ nest to be activated, or, he just says yes to everything she asks for, including in the past big money (in the divorce, while she earned more than he did/does and spent ALL of his money so that now he and I have nothing), and now all of her absurd smaller charges that come monthly.
He keeps wondering why it’s no good to just keep doing as she requests, as long as it’s nothing that will, really, disturb his life. I argue that at least parts of her monthly bills will end up disturbing our lives in that she will go for as much spending as possible just for kicks, while he and I will not be able to spend anything on us, ever (including getting ourselves out of the house they chose together). He also doesn’t acknowledge that he’s controlled by her, yet I point out tiny things she says that are her attempt to control him and us, and he minimizes those, though will at least acknowledge them a little bit.
The thing is, he does have a point in that I am also -allowing- her to aggravate me, which is possibly her goal. So, mightn’t it all be better for everyone if I just say yes, too?
How can it benefit us for me to be able to convince my husband to be a “grey stone” to her — what will we get out of this to benefit our lives? She will always be relentless, and will never be sated, true, though is there a real reason to say no unless or until she goes for something really big?
I mean, I see those future costs ahead, and have talked to my husband about those (college, she will try to make it all his responsibility), but other than that I’m wondering what else can happen? We have heard through the kids that she is thinking of moving to Europe, though we have consulted with an attorney, and it’d be best for the kids if she does want/try that because there are strict laws in this state making that illegal and pretty much impossible for one parent to execute, and the kids would need to stay here with us which would minimize their contact with her.
I’ve been reading more, also, and the “type” I am seeing in her, and in the kids unfortunately, is the bullying type full of criticism, tattling, complaining about little things but non stop. Unfortunately both kids do this, though more so in one, who I’ve also seen lying, manipulating, bossing around, and disturbingly to me occasionally faking injury, and is recently talking about the technique to strangle people that kills them, poison, and … something else like that which I’ve forgotten at the moment that freaked me out. This kid is 9, for pete’s sake. The other kid talks about lying to win court cases to win copyright materials from their creator, oddly, but the slant disturbs me of course.
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strongernow says:
This article was very helpful to me. I noticed in your last post you are questioning saying ‘yes’ to her to get her to shut up. I think the answer is the opposite. Say NO. NO MORE, as the article i copied and pasted states below. This truly did turn the tables for me and put ME in control of my life.
Dealing with a sociopath
Have absolutely No Contact
The best way to deal with a sociopath is not to deal with him. Reject him. Cut him off. Have absolutely No Contact.
No Contact means do not talk to him on the phone. Do not send, open or reply to e-mail. No instant messages or text messages. No cards, letters or packages. And certainly do not see him. (All of this applies to female sociopaths as well.)
If you’re in the midst of legal battles with the sociopath, let all communication go through your lawyer, accountant or another intermediary. (Make sure they understand how sociopaths operate.)
Change the dynamics
Why is No Contact important? Sociopaths are experts at breaking down their victims, piece by piece. If you have contact with him or her, you will be back in the game and the sociopath will continue to manipulate you. To begin your recovery, you must put him or her out of your life.
“No Contact changes the dynamics of the situation. The victim is now in control.” That’s the view of the manager of The Narcissist and Psychopath website, who has helped hundreds of people.
With No Contact, you are saying “no more.”
If you must have contact
Unfortunately, you may have no choice but to have contact with the sociopath, especially if you have children with him. If you’re in this situation, here are two important guidelines:
1. Always be on mental red alert when dealing with a sociopath.
2. Never deal with a sociopath alone; have a witness.
For more communication techniques, visit the abuse management page on The Narcissist and Psychopath website.
Out of the blue
Months or even years after you end it with the sociopath, he may show up again. He’ll tell you he’s in trouble, and you’re the only one who can help him. What do you do? Don’t bail him out. Ignore him. Let him suffer the consequences of his behavior.
He’s testing to see if he can start bleeding you again. Remember, sociopaths do not change.
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