99 Comments to “ASK DR. LEEDOM: Are there psychological tactics for dealing with a psychopath?”

1. jofary says:

   That sums it up beautifully.

   To add my own two cents worth, I have to deal with two sociopaths (the first was my naive mistake, the second was an outright fraud), and since I have children with both of these things (I am loathe to call them “people”), I have to maintain contact with them.

   That said, minimal contact with a psychopath is absolutely necessary. Don’t go looking for answers, friendship, closure, mutual understanding, favours, etc. because as far as a psychopath is concerned, you’re prey, period. Asking anything (literally) of these creatures is like exposing your underbelly to them.

   If you are simply dealing with court curveballs, remember that a psychopath doesn’t play by the rules and that judges, by vocation, choose a position somewhere in the middle between what you want and what your opponent wants. If your psychopath is wanting the moon and the stars (ie – a ridiculous portion of the property), then probably you should be asking for that, too, to balance it out, otherwise it will be disproportionally tilted in his favour. Judges seem to operate on the premise that both parties should be equally unhappy with his/her decision. Aim for what you think is fair and go several degrees above that to ensure you DO get what’s fair. (It’s worked beautifully for me so far.)

   If you have kids with them (which would be the only reason to have continual contact with these things, other than a boss, unless you’re essentially unhealthy) then don’t ever expect a normal co-parenting relationship. You have to be the boss, take control and don’t ever, ever explain yourself to them or justify your actions. If they badmouth you to to world, stop caring. Follow court orders (as Dr. Leedom suggests) to the letter. Document EVERYTHING!! (And if you’re dealing with a bona fide psychopath, there will be plenty to document and it WILL become extremely important at some point in the not-so-far-off future).

   If you want a court order changed, don’t bother trying to reason with a psychopath or come to an agreement on your own with him. It probably won’t happen and can, in fact, make things much, much worse (psychopaths love an opportunity to make a mess of things if it’s to their advantage – which means baiting you.) Just go straight to the courthouse. Trust me on this one. I’ve been there. (Twice.) Consider it the same sort of expense (and convenience) as car maintenance. I’m in love with my family court lawyer for the fact that he is the brick wall between me and these two idiots I have to deal with. I gladly accept the expense because it’s so much cheaper than dealing with the stress (and complications that psychopaths create) on my own. (Keep in mind I am a single mother to three children and I’m currently a student. Money is something I DON’T have but I wouldn’t give up my lawyer for ANYTHING).

   Don’t expect that, if you do them a favour, you’ll have one down the road from them in return. Psychopaths don’t work that way.

   Raise your children as if you are on your own because essentially you are. You are the only one who will be teaching your children the full scope of what it means to be “human.” If your psychopath has access to your children, expect them to be damaged. It’s inevitable. All you can do is provide balance and be there for them when they hurt. (For example, my middle child, Faith, was molested by her psychopathic father last year just before Christmas. I can do nothing about it except support her and give her the tools she needs to protect herself now and in the future. She’s only three years old. I thank God I There’s nothing I can do about it because unless I have a videotape and notarized confession from him, nothing she says matters. And she’s said a lot.)

   Don’t ever, ever make the mistake of thinking these things have the best interests of their children at heart or even that they care a little bit for them. They don’t. They would as easily destroy their own children for their own needs and desires (and that may include destroying you, too) as they would order a latte.

   So, to summarize, don’t apply the same human standards to psychopaths as you would with someone who is normal. These things are closer to insects (emotionally) than actual human beings. Not only will you be bitterly disappointed by your attempts to relate, but you’ll also (probably) be at a horrible disadvantage.

   Lastly, if you have children, consider your family lawyer as invaluable as your mechanic. DON’T SCRIMP on this essential. The cost of hooking up with a psychopath is hiring an excellent lawyer on your behalf from now until forever. Get used to it otherwise you and your children will pay a much larger price. I’m resigned to living in this hell and this is probably the MOST valuable advice I could give.

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   Saturday, 12 January 2008 @ 10:02pm

2. AntiAntiChrist says:

   Yes, we are forced to deal with him due to a court order. His other child has taught his younger sibling how to abuse their family dog. We can’t get anyone in the legal system to take a good look at this person (who is blatantly bizarre) and terminate his parental rights!! Originally the sociopath was just angry about paying child support. Now he is determined to torture the child’s mother and obviously intends to do this until the child is 18 by either being cruel to the child or by teaching the child narcissistic/sociopathic disorder treatment and passing it off as being normal. The child is not even 2 years old but she already knows how to scare dogs. The small child is a normal child in the family with custody’s home but there is no way to know what the child’s father is teaching the child to do!!

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   Monday, 14 January 2008 @ 7:12pm

3. redheeler says:

   Another tatic is to watch for movement within their silence-the seemingly good behavior. That’s when they are thinking deeply about YOU and how to manipulate you into doing their will. The signs are subtle, but they’re there-always. Train your eye for the things unseen, hear the unspoken word, sharpen your instincts for the signs of the next movement before it begins. THINK. Have a plan of action, activate it immediately and never show a violation of your own boundaries. And know that as this interplay is going on-YOU are being watched, with intense scrutiny for any signs of weakness-a crack in your armor that they can ooze through. Stand tall, stand firm, don’t waver, don’t compromise. And quickly move on out of range.

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 9:18am

4. khatalyst says:

   In my recovery from a relationship with a sociopath, I’ve encountered a number of people who were either in a relationship, trying to extricate themselves or trying to manage one of these relationships (usually in a work environment).

   The one rule we’ve found to be most useful is “when you’re dealing with a sociopath, be a sociopath.” That is, as Dr. Leedom said, turn off your compassion, understanding and guilt. Get clear about what you want to happen, and operate as cold-bloodedly as they do.

   That means to view them as the enemy or the competitor for resources. Have no qualms about tactics you would ordinary consider unethical or destructive to relationships. Just put the full force of your intellect and will behind whatever your objective it, and do what needs to be done.

   The main reason, in my mind, that you want as little contact as possible with these people is that is not good for you to have to behave this way. Basically, what you’re doing is unplugging everything that separates you from the sociopath. The justification for doing this is that you’re up against the wall, in a survival situation. But you are regressing your personality to a state of pure will, not moderated by social and community concerns.

   I’ve done it. Virtually everyone I know who has been involved in these situation has done it, when they get their minds free of the brain cloud the sociopaths create in them. And it leaves all of us feeling icky, like we’ve been corrupted by the experience. It doesn’t leave us liking ourselves. And some of us, myself included, have gone through periods when we feel like we may be becoming sociopaths as a result of exposure to the sociopath.

   But often there is no choice, especially if there are children involved or your own survival. You can’t rely on the “social contract” when dealing with these people, as Dr. Leedom pointed out. You have to become ruthless.

   Ruthlessness is one of those words that needs rehabilitation. It’s not necessary a bad thing. Not when your children’s wellbeing is at stake. Nor your own, nor other people you care about.

   As clever as sociopaths can be, they are ultimately like robots. Predictable in their intent, if not in their actions. Winning, power, and anything that makes them feel like they actually are something rather than a big black hole around which is wrapped a lot of phony identity.

   Every situation is different, but in my experience, the best tactics against them are more power and threat of exposure. They view people in terms of having more power than them or less power. You may think that they have wrapped up all the power sources, but if you think about it in these terms, you may realize they haven’t. You may think they are invulnerable from exposure, but if you think about it, you may see an opening.

   The ultimate objective is always to make them go away and stay away. To make you and whatever you care about too expensive to keep playing with. It’s not just a matter of stopping giving them what they want. It’s also making it unpleasant, costly and dangerous for them.

   In my experience, sociopaths are not competitors. They don’t like to play games to see who wins. If there is any chance of them not winning, they go find another game. (After they’ve done everything they can think of to win.)

   The first time I ever acted like a sociopath was when I got my sociopath out of my life, because I was sick, almost broke and at the edge of suicide. I broke deals I had with him. I made his life uncomfortable. I stopped money he was expecting. I made it impossible for him to maintain his “front.”

   And then I watched him trying to change my mind. It was like watching one of the old ViewMasters I had as a child clicking through the different pictures. He acted pitiful, he acted seductive, he made promises, he got mutual friends to talk to me, he told me I was a bad person, he told me no one loved me and I was lucky to have him, and then on his way out the door he whined, “But you said you love me.”

   I wanted him out of my life. Since then, I have done things I have never done before to make sure he stays out of my world and the world of anyone I care about. I made two mistakes. One was reaching out to his next victim to offer her support, if she wanted it. (She didn’t.) The other was to imagine I’d ever get back what he owed me.

   There is only one thing to do with sociopaths — eliminate them from your life and your world. The best and easiest way to do this, if you you recognize them early enough, is simply to give them no attention and refuse to engage. If the sociopath is already entrenched in your life, do you have to do to get get rid of it.

   One way or another, you’ll probably have to spend some time heading yourself. From the experience or from what you had to do end it. Being unfeeling is hard on you. But sometimes it’s necessary.

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 10:35am

5. Fleeced Ewe says:

   Redheeler, THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT point; you said: “Another tactic is to watch for movement within their silence-the seemingly good behavior.”

   And to the opening post:
   I worked with horses for years. and even the most abused, the most wild, are trainable. If you are inclined to do so it is possible-but as Dr. Leedom states, they are NOT suitable for showing.

   The mistake we make with these people are that they can be “trained”. They can’t. They are more like a wild animal that can NEVER be domesticated. Like a Raccoon, or a snake. I have worked with them, too, and they will turn on you, whenever they please.

   Every time we get a calm in the storm, we mistakenly fuel up to love them more while taking it as a sign that we are making progress. As Redheeler said, there is STILL movement going on…watch for that!
   WATCH FOR UNSEEN MOVEMENT and prepare for your defense. This is what you do while working with a wild animal. This is what you do when dealing with a perpetrator.

   At least, that has been my experience.

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 10:42am

6. Beverly says:

   One of the thing I noticed about my ex is that he is basically lazy, uses the method which causes him to expend the least energy. As a man quite abit younger than me, he had very little staying power in many aspects of the relationship and certainly hasnt got the tenacity and courage I have.

   Also watch for when they drop their comments in – usually after a good time together when they are just about to leave and you are left pondering what they meant. My ex kept talking about ‘voices in his head’ and his ‘demons’ and not having come across this behaviour before I thought it strange. I put my ex in the spotlight a number of times and he carried his ‘honest look’ and body language off to a point which looked convincing but didnt feel convincing.

   Red Flags, gut instincts, moments of silence are all good. Test them out as well, I used to test my ex out by asking him to meet me for things I had arranged – needless to say he always turned me down and if I initiated sex he turned me down. If he initiated sex, he said I had initiated it – and I used to say to him that he must have double vision because I was as clear as anything about who did what. He just wanted to be in complete control.

   I used to test him by asking him the same questions in a different way weeks or months apart and then remembering his answers to see if they were the same. They cant be that clever all the time. That’s where the mind control comes in – it is draining for them to keep the nonsense up, so if they confuse you and weaken you, make grand promises and let you down. The push and pull effect destabilises you causes a kind of addictive reaction – in that you feel comfortable and reassured when they return and anxious when they are away – perfect set up for someone who wants to possess and control another. Then to finish it all off, they make sure you doubt yourself and take the blame for their nonsense!

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 11:46am

7. Beverly says:

   Oh and I forgot. There’s the bit at the beginning, where their false persona gives you the impression they are the person you have been seeking, (they tap into that) they are polite, attentive, reliable, they want to help you chase your goals – you are the perfect person for them – your prince – knight – usually when we are most vulnerable. As a single mum, I was weary, he promised to relieve my burdens – and that was attractive.

   This is the polished false persona they use to trap us with – they have perfected it with others, they have tried many others. There isnt much continuity in their lives – look to see what they have created in their lives and how their lives have panned out. Next time I wont take anything they say as gospel, nor what anyone else says – even their mother. As proved, they often fool those closest to them.

   My instinct will be my guide and I will allow much more space before I commit anything of myself – in a sense I will use some of their tactics, not to control the other person but to give myself protection and I will give a little at a time and I will pull back if I am feeling disturbed about anything even if I cant make sense of it (my mistake last time – I could smell the rats, but couldnt make sense of them, so didnt act early enough).

   I guess I am learning to value myself in a way that I will not just give away parts of myself, my money, my attention, my energy, or anything else – until someone has proved they have earned it on a consistent and ongoing basis.

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 12:20pm

8. EnnLondon says:

   I think it’s just an elongated version of the pity play, but for my ex the big thing was threatening suicide every time he did something bad. Out of nowhere:
   ‘I think about it all the time?’
   ‘What.’
   ‘Killing myself.’
   His dad did just that so it seemed to have force. There’s still a part of me that believes him!

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 12:32pm

9. Beverly says:

   My ex had narcissistic committment conflicts, which helped to create a great deal of push and pull dynamics. Which I couldnt understand at the time because he wasnt the catch of the century, infact he had next to nothing going for him, if I look at it coldly. Additionally, he could be hard work to be with and I felt I could never be my real self. Why I put so much effort into someone who gave very little back?

   A very good book that goes into depth into the behaviour of those with active committment conflicts and myself as a passive pursuer is ‘He’s Scared She’s Scared’ by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol, published by Dell. This book helped my understanding of why alot of the behaviour takes place and the various stages of it. Has anyone read this book?

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   Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 4:12pm

10. suescov says:

    I have had to deal with my psychopathic ex’s through the years and they LOVE to play the game but now I do everything I can to stay “unhooked”. I recall toward the end of my marriage (when after 9 yrs, I knew it was finally OVER), I started listening with my head and not my heart and I was amazed on how he would try to manipulate me…it was as if I was seeing it for the first time and I couldn’t believe what a fool I had been and how I would continuously give in to his childish tantrums when he wanted me to buy him something or let him have his way. When he saw that he wasn’t getting through to me, I saw a side of him that had not revealed itself before then…he got real ugly with me and said some really mean things trying to put all the blame on me…and I just sat back and listened while watching in disbelief at this monstrous man who was transforming right in front of my eyes. Yes, if you want to see how ugly they can turn, try turning the tables on them and do not give an inch…hang out with friends, find a hobby….totally ignore them and see what happens. If you want to fall out of love with this person, this type of behavior will definitely be a turn-off…..it was for me and I was able to move on.

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    Wednesday, 16 January 2008 @ 4:26pm

11. Bé says:

    Hi All,
    Luckily my husband, I agree with jofary about what to call him, died in an accident two years ago. But that doesn’t change the loss of my son whom he has told so many lies about me that this son has said that he has no respect for me and that he doesn’t want anything to do with me. I haven’t heard from him over Christmas, New Year and even when I went for back surgery. Just a scary reminder to everyone who thinks that they can still have some kind of relationship with a psychopath. He WILL turn everyone, especially your children, on you if he gets the chance! And they are SO convincing that no one is going to believe you. He convinced many that I was crazy and had a serious alcohol problem. He told our friends that I took tablets to calm myself – which was of course plain lies! And he was a master manipulater – as was his mother and father.

    Beverly says her ex was so lazy. Mine too. He was asked to leave all his jobs – and he had a new one every 5 years!
    I am so sorry that I didn’t know what I know now, but what dr Leedom has said is so true: they are Driven To Do Evil!

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    Friday, 18 January 2008 @ 3:26pm

12. Mr. Green says:

    I would disagree that sociopaths are driven to do evil, no matter what a books says. Evil is a term directly relating to religion and the devil. I think sociopaths are driven by internal motives relating to their own decisions and what would benefit them the most, and are by no means directed or guided by any religious force. I think if a sociopath were aligned with a devil they would without a doubt screw them over just the same as they would a regular human.

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    Saturday, 19 January 2008 @ 8:45pm

13. Dodged_A_Bullet says:

    So, Mr. Green, why would a sociopath lie about HIV and knowlingly expose his partner to HIV two months into the relationship and knowing it (the relationship) was about to end? How could infecting another person ‘benefit’ them? It seems the only reason would be he just didnt care if I was infected- and maybe hoped I would be.

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    Tuesday, 22 January 2008 @ 3:57pm

14. Mr. Green says:

    I would say you are right. He didn’t care if he infected you because if he was going to break up with you it did not matter if you were infected or not. I would not consider this behavior “evil”. I would call it neglect. Evil usually has a religious connection and I doubt the devil told him to do it.

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    Tuesday, 22 January 2008 @ 11:00pm

15. lesley says:

    Evil [evel]: adjective. Profoundly immoral and malevolent. Harmful or tending to harm. (Of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.

    I think this qualifies.

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    Wednesday, 23 January 2008 @ 12:04am

16. Dodged_A_Bullet says:

    I agree. The “Devil” didnt have to tell him to do it. Evil can come from hisself. ‘Neglect’ was failing to tell me in the first place. You seem to rationalize things just as he would. Go figure.

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    Wednesday, 23 January 2008 @ 8:34am

17. Mr. Green says:

    You will quickly learn, if you already haven’t that a sociopath can rationalize himself out of most problems.

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    Thursday, 24 January 2008 @ 3:03am

18. Dodged_A_Bullet says:

    Trust me. I’ve learned. First hand.

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    Thursday, 24 January 2008 @ 11:44am

19. SecretMonster says:

    Mr. Green, you’re off base. Evil is an appropriate word for it. Do your homework on the meaning of the word. A good place to start is “Genealogy of Morals” by Nietzsche.

    http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnsto.....gytofc.htm

    If you don’t want to buy the book. We are, in fact, driven to do evil. The difference is, likely it’s not for the sake of doing evil, it’s just because what we actually gain something substantial from a lot of times ends up being considered evil by others.

    SecretMonster

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    Thursday, 24 January 2008 @ 2:27pm

20. Dodged_A_Bullet says:

    SM, thanks…….and again, I can find no substantial ‘gain’ from KNOWLINGLY infecting or even trying to infect another person with HIV. If anything, it could have landed him in the ‘box’. And doing something like that, obviously, exposes the sociopath. Everything he projected himself to be…honest, truthful, trustworth, was wiped away by that one lie.

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    Thursday, 24 January 2008 @ 3:12pm

21. Mr. Green says:

    Once again SecretMonster, you are correct. You have called me on my BS. You also made me think about it in a different light. I don’t think of what I do as evil but viewed from another’s perspective, something I am not very good at doing, It could be seen as evil. Your experience is something I am lacking but I am trying.

    Nietzsche is now on my reading list. Do you recommend any other books that I should look into? I have been on a self exploration phase lately and have quite a few books already accumulated but I still feel I am lacking.

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    Friday, 25 January 2008 @ 1:36am

22. SecretMonster says:

    I can think of a few – the old adage “Misery loves company” comes to mind. I can reasonably see being so angry at the world for the condition, that it somehow is vindicative to be kind of a typhoid Mary, and spread the plague even further.

    You also have to realize that a lot of these guys aren’t driven by the same motive as I am – don’t get caught. So, it isn’t in their play book to avoid these sorts of complications or confrontations. It’s likely part of the thrill of the entire encounter. You have the romance, the string along, and the reveal. It’s almost like a bad movie script.

    SecretMonster

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    Friday, 25 January 2008 @ 2:30am

23. Dodged_A_Bullet says:

    Maybe you’re right. He must have been a complete idiot to think he could move into this town and get away with that, and me actually never find out- or he knew I would eventually, and infact wanted me to. So as it stands, he’s gotten away with it- but his secret is out…and spreading…probably just like his disease.

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    Friday, 25 January 2008 @ 11:10am

24. plolson123 says:

    Hi-I know my daughter is a sociopath. She has no guilt, no matter what she does. Some examples–she “accidently” burned down the house they were living in-she had a candle lit to cover marijuana smells-she felt no guilt-even though her family was homeless. She was invited to a church dinner and stole money from people’s purses-she tears pages out of library art books and frames them as her own and then returns the books…..she has stolen all of her life…….now she is a mother and is teaching by example to her beautiful daughter……

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    Saturday, 26 January 2008 @ 3:26pm

25. CellStemCell says:

    I would like to draw your attention to the recent Robert D Hare scientific paper which came out in 2007. That paper says that there is some kind of SUPERfactor that defines psychopathy. I will post an abstract below followed by two question/thoughts :
    ——————
    The super-ordinate nature of the psychopathy checklist-revised. Neumann Craig S; Hare Robert D; Newman Joseph P Department of Psychology, University of North Texas, Denton, TX 76203-1280, USA. csn0001@unt.edu Journal of personality disorders (2007), 21(2), 102-17. Journal code: 8710838. ISSN:0885-579X. United States. Journal; Article; (JOURNAL ARTICLE) written in English. PubMed ID 17492916 AN 2007284846 MEDLINE

    Abstract

    Psychopathy, while perhaps the earliest and most recognized personality disorder, is the subject of intense debate about its nature and measurement. The most recent proposal on its structural nature suggests that it is a multifaceted construct, made up of at least four dimensions reflecting Interpersonal, Affective, Lifestyle, and Antisocial anomalies (Hare & Neumann, 2005, 2006). These dimensions are significantly interrelated, suggesting that they are indicators for a super-ordinate factor. The nature of this higher-order factor may reflect the unifying feature which comprehensively defines the disorder. To examine this super-factor, the current study used several very large data sets of male (N = 4865) and female (N = 1099) offenders, and forensic psychiatric patients (N = 965), who were assessed with the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R; Hare, 2003). Structural equation modeling results indicated that the four first-order factor dimensions could be explained by a single second-order cohesive super-factor.
    ———————–
    1. if super factor exists does it mean that there could be some ONE magic question which would give an answer if you deal with psychopath )) ?

    2. Does this super-factor concept contradict “inner-triangle” theory or in fact it does not contradict? Since inner triangle has to have all 3 features present in psychopath does that mean that there could be that super factor which defines all three?

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    Monday, 28 January 2008 @ 2:35am

26. CellStemCell says:

    abstract sounds interesting for me, any one can translate that paper into “normal language”? ))

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    Monday, 28 January 2008 @ 2:37am

27. SHOWBIRDZ says:

    MY EX DID THE SAME THING. FROM THE OUTSIDE HE LOOKED LIKE A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN. HE CAME ON STRONG THE PERFECT GENTLEMAN. EVERYHTING WAS PERFECT FOR ABOUT THE FIRST YEAR. I TRIED TO KEEP MY GUARD UP, SOMETHING TOLD ME TO KEEP MY HEAD ABOUT ME. MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM AT ALL. BUT THEY SAID NOTHING BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT I WAS HAPPY. HE WAS NEVER PHYSICALLY VIOLENT WITH ME. BUT THEIR WAS AN UNDERCURRENT THAT I COULD FEEL OF EXTREME VIOLENCE. I WAS SCARED. HE DID AND SAID THINGS THAT JUST DIDN’T MAKE ANY SENSE. HE ASKED ME TO PUT HIM IN MY WILL AND TO PUT HIM ON MY HOUSE TITLE. I THANKFULLY DIDN’T DO IT. HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN EVERTHING. HE HAD PAID FOR A POOL IN MY HOME AND USED THAT AS THE REASON. BUT THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT FOR ME TO PAY BACK THE POOL. IT WAS A GIFT. LITTLE BY LITTLE HE STARTED TO LET ME SEE THE REAL HIM. I DIDN’T LIKE WHAT I SAW. HE HAD ALOT OF GUNS AND AMMO. WHICH HE MOVED INTO MY HOME. HE STARTED BUYING ALOT OF POT AND KEEPING AT MY HOME. I FELT HELPLESS TO DO ANYTHING BECAUSE EVERTIME I WOULD BRING IT UP, HE WOULD EITHER PUT ME DOWN OR TELL ME I WAS PARANOID. HE STARTED OUT AS AN RECREATIONAL DRINKER & POT SMOKER TURNED INTO ALL DAY & NIGHT, NEVER SOBER. BUT WHEN HE HANDED ME HIS PHONE TO GIVE SOME GUY DIRECTIONS TO MY HOME TO COME AND BUY POT FROM HIM, THAT WAS THE LAST STRAW. I COULDN’T LET THIS HAPPEN. HE TOLD ME HE HAD BEEN DEALING DRUGS FROM HIS HOME FOR YEARS. THIS GUY WAS A RETIRED PAROLE OFFICER. HE WAS MAD AT ME BECAUSE I WOULD NEVER ALLOW HIS FRIENDS TO COME TO THE HOUSE. THAT SIMPLE WASN’T TRUE AND MADE NO SENSE. I TOLD HIME TO LEAVE OR I WOULD CALL THE POLICE. HE LEFT THE NEXT DAY. TWO MONTHS LATER HE SLAPPED A LAWSUIT ON ME. IT’S NOT OVER YET HE IS STILL AFTER ME FOR THE MONEY. I AM NOW FIGHTING FOR MY HOME AND FUTURE FROM THIS MONSTER. HE HAS NEVER ADMITTED TO DOING ANYTHING WRONG. HE IS PLAYING THE COMPLETE VICTIM. MAKING ME OUT TO BE THE GOLD-DIGGER AND SOCIOPATH. I JUST CAN’T BELIEVE I GOT MYSELF INTO THIS.
    SHOWBIRDZ

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    Monday, 28 January 2008 @ 10:25am

28. Beverly says:

    Showbirdz – So, easy to get into these relationships with these wily monsters and getting out can also be very tricky. But thank God you kept your wits about you and you have got him out of your home – that is a huge step for the good, because then his direct manipulation and access to you and all the nonsense and illegal stuff he brought to your home stops. Cant you just give him the pool money to get rid of him once and for all?

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    Monday, 28 January 2008 @ 12:05pm

29. SHOWBIRDZ says:

    BEVERLY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR ADVISE. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
    I WOULD PAY HIM OFF IF I COULD. I HAVE A MORTGAGE AND AN EQUITY LINE OF CREDIT THAT IS BEING USED FOR MY LAWYER EXPENSES. I LIVE HAND TO MOUTH. NO SAVINGS. I HAVEN’T LIVED IN MY HOME 2 YEARS YET, SO I CAN’T REFI BUT EVEN THEN THE BANKS AREN’T GOING TO LEND ME MORE THAN THE HOUSE IS WORTH. I’M BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE. BUT MY LAWYER SAYS HE DOESN’T HAVE A CASE. I’VE SPOKEN WITH A FEW LAWYERS AND THEY ARE SUPRISED THAT HE WAS ABLE TO FILE A SUIT ON ME. I NEVER AGREED TO PAY NOR DID I SIGN ANYTHING TO REPAY. HE WAS WORKING ON THAT BUT I KEPT REFUSING. I’M SURE WITH TIME, IF I HADN’T COME TO MY SENSES, HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN MY HOME TOO.
    SHOWBIRDZ

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    Monday, 28 January 2008 @ 1:14pm

30. OxDrover says:

    Dr Leedom, that is a wonderful response to this woman’s question.

    I would like to add a bit to your explination. Years ago before I went into the medical field, I worked as a wild life photographer in Africa and South Americal. I got to know quite a bit about wild animals, and wild animals in captivity.

    I am also a life long horse trainer. I also used to think that I could get up and dust myself off and get back on the rankest of horses, and even did so with a BROKEN LEG.

    It is sort of like the old country and western song about the “winner”–an old man sitting in a bar talking to a younger man about how the old man is always a “winner” in bar room fights. he h as had an eye gouged out, but he “won” he had his legs broken, but he “won” the fight by inflicting more pain on the “loser” and on and on, and the old man shows that even though he “won” every bar room brawl he was in, he is a broken hulk of a man, barely able to walk–but he was a WINNER! LOL

    I have a farm with quite a bit of large stock, cattle, horses, donkeys etc. but I made a RULE years ago, after getting back on the horse that deliberately broke my leg, that ANY animal no matter the monetary worth that TRIED to deliberately hurt me (whether they succeeded or not) DIED. Period. No second chances. Large stock can hurt you without meaning to, either through fear or pain, but an animal that WANTS TO HURT YOU, and I have had horses and cattle like that, is NOT WORTH THE RISK.

    I wish I had applied that logic years ago to people as well. As I had unwisely gotten back on the horse that broke my leg before I went to the ER, tried to “control” and “tame” the untameable Ps. How foolish on my part was that? What did it prove that I got back on the EVIL horse? Or that I “got back on” the Evil P? That I was tough enough to endure their injuries and get back up?

    Now, older and wiser, anyone who TRIES to hurt me is not worth the RISK of trying to deal with them unless I am forced to and as far as risking my chldren being around a P, I am afraid I would break the law and take them and RUN and hide. In the case of dire necessiaty to protect my child from molestation, laws and courts be hanged–I am gone.

    At age 60 I have finally gotten wise enough to realize that I can’t “defeat” them without becoming like the “winner” in all the barroom brawls—injured and infirm–and at some point I will “lose” the fight and they will finish me off. What kind of life is that?

    A mean horse, whatever the reason it is trying to hurt me, even if it is “mean” because it was formerly abused, is not something that I want to risk my life and my soul to try to “rehabilitate” it is just not worth the risk. Ditto with EVIL humans…it is not worth the risk to fight with them. Besides, it will NOT work.

    My symapthy goes out to those valiant men and women who battle with them day to day to try to raise their children in the chaos and pain created by these monsters, who will use their own children as battering rams and baseball bats to try to injure their x’s—How sad is that? How messed up is our court system to fail to realize and recognize these monsters for what they are and to give some comfort to these defenders of their young?

    Wild animals can never be completely “tamed” or their danger over come, the tiger incident in Las Vegas is a wonderful and horrible example of this fact. Anyone who thinks otherswise is either ignorant, foolish or stupid. They are and always will be WILD animals. They do not understand the “love” and “kindness” shown to them by their “owners” the way a dog does. But a dog is thousands of generations away from the wolf from which they all sprang geneticly. Not so the tigers and lions and wolves of this world. Even if you take them away from their mothers at birth and raise them on a bottle, they will NOT fail to be tigers or lions when they grow up, they will just be tigers and lions that have NO RESPECT OR FEAR OF HUMANS the way wild ones do. So actually, they are MORE dangerous than their wild brothers.

    To me, the “domesticated” P is more dangerous than the one who has not learned the social skills necessary to “pass for human.”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 23 February 2008 @ 1:10pm

31. blackrose says:

    Are we talking about the same guy? Do these men follow a pattern? I wished I had read a book on sociopaths before I met mine, my life would be a lot better now. We are not together now, because one day he just decided not to call me anymore, now I realize that I was probably one of many or at least a few. My dad always told me, this man is lying and using you, he runs around and then goes home on weekend and plays the good family man.
    I have no doubt he still thinks he is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, I have never been so manipulated, and lied to about the smallest things, he was such a jerk and I believed him, he used me and I let him. I am so angry at myself, has anyone gone through that?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 10:06am

32. OxDrover says:

    Blackrose, yes, there are patterns, and yes, being angry at yourself for allowing him to use you is ‘normal’ but it will pass.

    I suggest you read and learn and learn and read…and the anger at yourself will pass, you will forgive yourself as we all must. They are crafty creatures. God bless.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 11:01am

33. LilOrphan says:

    khatalyst

    Can you – or someone else – expound on this experience:

    “I’ve done it. Virtually everyone I know who has been involved in these situation has done it, when they get their minds free of the brain cloud the sociopaths create in them. And it leaves all of us feeling icky, like we’ve been corrupted by the experience. It doesn’t leave us liking ourselves. And some of us, myself included, have gone through periods when we feel like we may be becoming sociopaths as a result of exposure to the sociopath.”

    I feel very much like that, lately. The first time I made a clean break from him back in 2001 it didn’t involve any weird maneuvers. This time it did, and I cut myself off from feeling. I’ve been numb from being around him even though I was suspicious of him once he returned in 2006 and those suspicions abated only slightly during the “idealization” phase when he was being pretty terrific. They got much worse during the D&D, and rightly so.

    At any rate, I felt like one and sometimes still feel this (for lack of a better term) residue from engaing with him. Even when I tell others the truth of his behaviors towards me, I feel like I’m being an S’path, telling tales out of school, abusing him somehow by proxy. Even though the things I’m saying are 100 percent true things he did and said. Plus, there’s so much anger towards him for coming along again when life was bad and attempting to make it worse that I was contemplating things that were, basically, abhorrent: retribution fantasies, continuing in his twisted game, trying to win it.

    Until one day I realized it can’t be won, wasn’t worth trying and was a giant waste of talent and energy. But still, the residue feeling…this ickiness and slight emptiness….does it go away?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 11:31am

34. OxDrover says:

    Orphan,

    I’m not Khatalyst, but maybe I can shed some light on your questions.

    Quote: “The icky feeling, like we have been corrupted by the experience” I think is a COMMON feeling to many/most/all of us. I know I was ANGRY at myself, downed my self for being “so STUPID”

    Quote: “gone through period when we feel like we may be becoming sociopaths as a result to exposure to the sociopath”

    The intensity of the stress and pain which they inflict on us, which we suck up and allow them to create within is, I think causes “abnormal” reactions, out of character reactions within us. Frustration, stress, pain—all make for our own crazy or unwise behavior. The “need for revenge” or the desire for it, is also a NATURAL human response to injury. But we control our own impulses to go burn their house down, or shoot them, or do bad things, because we are NOT Ps…even by association.

    Telling other people (who have not had experinece with this kind of person in a very painful way) sometimes leaves us feeling bad because they are NOT ABLE TO VALIDATE our feelings,,,,,it is TOTALLY FOREIGN TO THEM. They cannot relate.

    I got the sense that I was telling someone about my “abduction by aliens” story and they were looking at me like I was CRAZY—and that the “abduction by aliens” would be more believeable to them than telling them what the Ps had done. Normal people who have not dealt with or know about Ps are not able to validate your feelings—unfortunately. Therefore I gave up trying to “explain” myself to these people or even talk about the Ps with them. No matter what I said I could not convince them that I was not the crazy one. LOL

    Your ANGER is also a NORMAL RESPONSE…anger at him, anger at yourself. Yes, he was EVIL. Yes, you let him back into your life.

    Forgiving myself I think may be one of the most difficult things that I have faced. I look at how I allowed them to dupe me, and kept trying, expending massive amounts of energy, love, etc trying to “fix” them when they were unfixable. WHY? But I must come to forgiveness of myself and I believe as well, forgiveness of them as well. Not “forgiveness” in the context of saying that what they did was right or justified, but GETTING THE BITTERNESS AND ANGER AND RAGE out of MY HEART, for MY benefit. Letting that go. It is PAST. I can’t change the past, I can only ACCEPT it for what it is/was, and move on from here.

    I am changed by the experience. I DO look for red flags in new relationships of ALL kinds. I DO set boundaries with people in my “circle of trust” and in any kind of relationship with me. I no longer feel the “need” to “please everyone” without expecting anything in return—like respect of me and my own boundaries.

    I don’t let uncomfortable trespasses of my boundaries “accumulate” until there are enough of them that I explode and act inappropriately myself. I address each trespass of my boundaries on the spot (most of the time) or as soon after the trespass as I am aware of it.

    Now that I am not spending so much emotional energy on others and what they think about me, worrying that I might not “please” someone else–I can focus more energy on me, and my own recovery, restoring my own emotional reserves of energy so that in the event a big emotional upset of some kind (unexpected death in the family or whatever happens) that I will have some reserves to deal with that.

    I am ELIMINATING what I call the “UNnecessary” crap. There are enough things in life that “just happen”–illness, injury, etc that can’t be prevented—but there is NO NEED for “UN-necessary” nastiness on anyone’s part and I will not tolerate that at all.

    I consciously avoid situations where I may be in contact with someone that I know will try to inflict some kind of emotional nonsense on me, etc. Thus avoiding a situation that I know will take away from my PEACE or energy.

    I don’t discuss the P-experience with anyone outside my very close “circle of trust” and then not too often unless something comes up that we need or want to talk about it.

    I read and learn and reinforce my learning about appropriately setting boundaries, and enforcing them. Since this is not yet a “habit” and I must sort of “work at it” and “work at” not feeling guilty about it, it is still in the learning and working at it stage. I am getting better at it though, and not requiring “validation” (from others) that my boundaries are appropriate–I am making PROGRESS from where I was. Early on I actually would have to ask my son D if my boundaries were appropriate or if I was over reacting. I didn’t trust myself to know what appropriate boundaries were. Now I know and am trusting myself. I set them without having to get validation from him. I have taken off the “training wheels” as it were.

    It all takes time, study to see where WE need to adjust our thinking, guilt feelings, emotions, etc. and the old saying “Rome wasn’t built in a day” and neither were we “built in a day” we have a lifetime behind us of habits, thoughts, etc. that we need to examine to see which are helpful and which detrimental to our well being. Which to keep and which to toss out. I wish I thought I could ever reach “perfection” but I know it isn’t a destination, but a journey in which I will stumble again and again, but as long as I work at it, and put one emotional foot in front of the other, I’ll get closer to what I really want to BE.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 12:17pm

35. Ariadne says:

    LilOrphan,
    It has been a while since I was victimized so I definitely went through that stage of being numb. I know how that feels. It is kind of scary, because when I was thinking of how to get back at the S, I started thinking of ways to manipulate the situation that I’m sure she would have thought of if she were in my place. I had dreams about murder and revenge.

    But now even though she turns my stomach, I have given up on revenge and I rely on indifference to fight my battles. Now that I have gone through feeling icky and guilty about my responses to her, I feel like I can look at it objectively. I try to dissect what she says and find a motive instead of listening to the craziness she spouts. (I can’t go NC completely because of my father.)

    Also, practicing indifference with sociopaths at work has also helped me with that. I obviously have to have some type of contact with them, so I ignore them to the best of my abilities. Now I am to the point where I can see what they are trying to do with each fake laugh and snide comment. It’s kind of pathetic actually.

    Having said that, I DO know how difficult it is to distance yourself from the emotional aspect of the interaction or the memories. It is hard not to feel vindictive when you tell such bizarre (but true) stories. They can sound so off-the-wall to other people. That’s why I don’t tell anyone but close friends and people here about it.

    It was hard for me to stop taking the crap personally, even about my memories. But really, that’s just what they do. I really think it will go away for you eventually. I think it’s just a matter of time and the icky feeling is a stage in healing that you’ll pass.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 12:33pm

36. blackrose says:

    I agree with the last post, sometimes I feel, well, all the time, I feel as if I have been emotionally raped. I would love to forgive him, not because I want to, but because it would be better for me. But, right now I’m at the hate him/still love him stage, I hate him for what he did to me, for the lies, the deception, for getting away with it. I even hate him for not thinking of me enough to try to call me and manipulate me again. I keep thinking that if he called and gave him a piece of my mind, tell him how I feel about him now, that I would feel better, I don’t think he would listen though. Months ago he even stopped talking to his niece, who is my friend and the one to give him my number. He started telling me she was a compulsive liar, and I should not believe anything she said. Now I see how he was trying to discredit her, so I would believe only him. What bothers me the most was the way he ended the relationship, he didn’t, he just stopped calling. So I have not had that closure, it’s this door that’s just been left open enough, and as much as I’d like to tell him how I feel, I’m just at that vulnerable state of mind where I could fall for his lies one more time, and the feeling is just as unbearable as it was three months ago. The funny thing is I only saw this man twice in one year, the rest of the time we just talked on the phone, so I don’t know why he still has such a hold on me, maybe I think of all the times I thought of breaking it off and didn’t because I did not want to hurt him, and he ended up hurting me instead with absolutely no regard to how I would feel.

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    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 12:46pm

37. OxDrover says:

    Blackrose, all your feelings about this man are so common to us all I think. Especially in the early stages.

    AFter I realized what my P-son was, and how EVIL he was, I wanted SO BADLY to “tell him off” to “give him a piece of my mind” to say something that would make him know or care how much he had hurt me—OH HOW I WANTED TO LET HIM KNOW—but I restrained myself (finally) and now at this point, I really don’t care if he understood (though I know he can’t really, or if he does, he doesn’t care).

    Your pain will pass as your healing progresses….that I can guarentee you…but it will take time. I think the most healing words in the world are “and this, too, shall pass.”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 1:13pm

38. blackrose says:

    I guess my sense of loss comes from remembering what he was like on the “phone” before we met, but he mirrored my wants, desires, his good qualities were my good qualities. THAT man left such an in print in my life, and to realize that he was a lie it’s devastating. Any explanation would have been fine, we were talking about it with his niece, and she stated that the last argument we had gave him an easy way out, he could just use it as an excuse to end the relationship, and maybe he just doesn’t care to know how much I hate him now, and I agree with feeling “icky”.
    I keep thinking, how could I have made love to this man? How could I have loved him at all, knowing I deserved better. We were talking about the relationship with a friend of mine, and I made the comment that if I had made the effort to go see him more often, he never had the time to come and see me, that the relationship perhaps would have worked out, and her response was,”no, you would have seen the real him sooner, and you would have ended it.”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 1:55pm

39. OxDrover says:

    Blackrose,

    Your friend is sooooooo RIGHT—there is NOTHING you could have done that would have made this relationship “work out” for anything in a healthy manner—giving up the belief that we could have done something different to have changed the outcome is I think one of the first steps to healing ourselves, to forgiving ourselves for pouring so much energy and love into a BLACK HOLE of humanity.

    I sought for years for the elusive “right words” to convince my P-son that he shouldn’t destroy his life, that he shouldn’t do the things he did–I just kept feeling that there was some “magic phrase” that would make him see how much I loved him and how I was concerned for his welfare, not trying to hurt him, etc etc. I wanted to somehow open up his skull and pour in my life to make him “see” that he was ruining his life, and ruining my hopes for my much beloved son—

    Well, Black rose, there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy and NO MAGIC PHRASE that can make them CARE. The only place any of these things existed was in my hopeful imagination—it didn’t really hurt me to give up the Santa Claus myth, or the Easter Bunny, or even the Tooth Fairy, but it tore out my GUTS to give up the myth that there was a thing in this world I could have done to have changed the outcome of my son’s life.

    He was determined to be his “own man” and do whatever he wanted, no matter who he destroyed, even himself. He is in prison now for murder, where he deserves to be, and where he needs to stay. He has never repented, only gloried in how bad he is. It is a shame, this is a man who had it all, looks, intelligence, charisma, and a full-ride scholarship to any school he had wanted to go to including the Ivy Leagues. He blew it all off, threw it all away in order to be a THUG and a “badA$$”—well he succeeded in his efforts.

    Giving up the “fantasy son” that I wanted was as painful or maybe more so than anything I have ever done, but though TRUTH is painful, in the end, it sets us FREE if we accept it.

    The “fantasy ADULT son” is no longer there, and the real child son that I loved is no more, he i s essentially “dead” and the coffin closed and buried, and the grief for his loss turned to acceptance and peace—and just as I can remember the pleasant times with that long-lost child, and I can remember the good times with my late husband, without undue pain or grief, I have come full circle to where life is good again.

    I still have issues to deal with, like setting appropriate boundaries, and some other things, that will keep me from being a victim of another P that I might meet, but the worst of all is over, and I am on the upswing. Still healing my wounds, but they are no longer bleeding profusely and are knitting closed.

    There are many people here who can validate your feelings as “normal” and your “pain” as transitory in spite of how intense it is. There IS LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, and it is NOT an ON-COMING TRAIN! lol

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    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 2:19pm

40. blackrose says:

    Thanks for all the comments, I am really sorry about your son, it must be painful for you to have gone through that. Sometimes, I think maybe I am making this man to be worse than he really is, then I look back at our so called relationship, he was never there for me. He did tell some of his family members about me, (I should have told you, he’s married, on his third wife). He said he had told his brother about me, basically that I was good in bed. At the time, I thought what an odd thing to say about the woman he loves, but when I would ask him what he liked about me, he would respond the same way, “you’re pretty and good in bed.” He always blamed his wives for all the problems in their marriages, that should have been a clue, actually it was, just chose to ignore it. The red flags were always there. He did love his son, but it took him ten months to tell me he had indeed fathered another son, did not remember how old the child was, and he said it as casually as talking about a puppy he gave away.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 3:34pm

41. OxDrover says:

    ALL PSYCHOPATHS cause horrible pain to anyone they interact with, or are related to.

    They give us a “fantasy” of them being what we want and need, but it is all a FAKE, a LIE, “smoke and mirrors” and UNREAL. My son used my love for him, and used me like toilet paper–somehow he got joy out of “putting one over” on me, more than doing it to others—he had a special hatred of me, I think because of the few times I SERIOUSLY stood up to him…I think he actually wanted to prove himself smarter, more cunning, and more sly than me…

    But he didn’t hurt me emotionally any more than anyone else here has been hurt emotionally—the pain from them fills our entire being—regardless of who they are to us. It is just that I let it go on for longer than most people have, though I know women who have been married ot them for 40+ years and finally broke free—

    Anytime we continually interact with anyone who is “not behaving morally” (whether they steal, cheat on their wife, sponge off others, or what their immoral behavior is) we are letting ourselves interact with a potential, if not actual, Psychopath.

    I’ve “enjoyed” all the pain I care to from psychopaths in my life, from my son, to my biological father, to bosses, to boyfriend, to business partners–I’ve ignored the red flags, and ignored warnings from others early on in the relationships, but I think I finally got the message.

    Blackrose, your P can’t love you, only use you…just like a cat plays with a mouse (read that thread it is a good one) and sometimes it is difficult to get our heads around that concept. I know it sure was for me and most people on this blog seem to echo my feelings on that (not trying to speak for everyone though) Because we don’t have the same mental constructs that they do we can’t understand them much better than they can us–it would be like us trying to understand the thinking of our 15th century ancestors as they lit the fire under a heretic to burn them at the stake for thinking the world was not flat.

    I have no doubt that somewhere one of my ancestors was burned at the stake and that one of my other ancestors lit the fire…but I can’t really imagine how they felt, thought, etc. as it is just too foreign to me to think about such a thing as “logical” or “rational” or “right”—

    I can’t really fathom how someone can strap a bomb to their body and think they are doing right by blowing themselves up and taking innocent children with them. I can’t imagine how Timothy McVey bombed the buildings in Oklahoma…anymore than he can imagine what I thought about HIM. It is like two different species, except THEY LOOK HUMAN.

    I can observe their behavior in some circumstances, but I can’t fathom how they really “think.” I know when I go to drive up my herd of cattle, how they will behave if I do X, and How they will behave if I do Y, but I can’t get into their heads, I can only observe cause and effect.

    Ps in some ways are just as predictable as the cattle at herding time…if you look directly at the cattle they sense this as aggression and move away from you, so if you are trying to walk by one without disturbing it, you look away and it will stand in place, but if you look directly at it, it will run away from you.

    All the “behavioral clues” that he gave you, and that you chose to ignore, are pretty common with other people too. I had RED FLAGS waving not in a “breeze” but in a hurricane and I ignored them totally because to notice them would have been to give up the “fantasy” I was invested in, and I wasn’t ready to do so until the pain got so intense I had no choice if I was to live (literally).

    The one thing I would contradict you on is that I don’t believe he did love his son—they are not capable of love as we know it, but only of “ownership” of others, especially children. Notice what you said about “did not remember how old the child was, and said it casually as talking about a puppy he gave away.”

    You sound like a pretty “sharp cookie” and I know that there will be pain for a while and the “crazy making” confusion etc. but the pain is transitory and there is light at the end of the tunnel if we look for it!

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    Monday, 31 March 2008 @ 6:38pm

42. blackrose says:

    What bothers me the most, and I don’t know why, is to think of what he’s telling those people who knew about me. The things he would say about his niece to me to try to discredit her, and then he’d say that he loved her. I just feel such shame, his niece told me that I had given him an easy way out when we had that argument, but thinking about it, I had given him the chance to break it off a couple of moths. before, and what did he do? He asked me to wait and be patient, now I see that he could not be the one to be “left.” Like I said before, it feels as if I have been emotionally raped, and when I asked people if they thought this was a good man, who maybe decided to work on his marriage, the response was always the same, no.
    Maybe they’re right, maybe he’s moved on to someone else, maybe his wife is now providing him with the ns he needs, I don’t know, what I do know is that he never loved me and that’s going to be a hard pill to swallow for sometime.
    The one thing I remember about him is he always said that if we were going to be together, it was going to be his way of noway.
    But, then he’d say how his wife called the shots at home, I don’t know if that is true or not. I know that he has some deep emotional issues with women, he confessed to me that he had been sexually abused by his mom, that she would lock him in a closet for hours when he was little, and that is why he punishes the women in his life. I wished I had never met him, that is one of the things I would change about my life if I could, just erase him out of my memory.

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    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 10:02am

43. OxDrover says:

    Blackrose,

    It really doesn’t matter if his mother tortured him with lit cigarettes, that does NOT excuse his behavior to women.

    NOT every person who was abused as a child becomes an abuser. It is a CHOICE.

    He will talk about you badly, that is what a Psychopath does. They place blame for what they do on others–the poor abused dear…that is part of the LIE.

    Keep in mind, HE IS THE LIE. EVERYTHING HE DOES IS A LIE.

    You can’t “normalize” his behavior, or make sense of it in a way that a normal person can understand, all we can do is to observe his behavior and say “He is acting like a psychopath” because he can’t understand empathy and we can’t truly understand how a person with NO CONSCIENCE TRULY FEELS.

    He is POISON. He is EVIL. Just like a rattlesnake is poison, and will bite, Ps do what they do. They just ARE.

    Trying to “understand” him, or “pity” him is crazymaking.

    All the “love” and “kindness” in the world won’t make a rattlesnake not poison, and it won’t make it grow fur and love you like a puppy—it just IS a snake. It does what snakes do. It thinks like snakes think. (if they do)

    The time will come when you will remember the experience without pain, with acceptance, but in the meantime, focus on healing YOU. God bless.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 11:00am

44. blackrose says:

    I know, but even now, and it’s only been three months, I keep blaming myself, and then I have to keep remembering that this man NEVER LOVED ME. When he would talk about the love of his life, his drug addicted ex-wife, he’d tell me, “as much as I loved her, I used her.” I never asked him to go into detail, I think I was just afraid of what the answer would be. Sometimes I just pray that I am wrong about this guy, but it always goes back to the same thought, no, he is what he is. They can’t even be called animals, that would be too good of a name for them.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 11:26am

45. OxDrover says:

    Blackrose, the “blaming yourself” is part of the healing process. I think 99.9999% of us all do that…but that too will pass as you heal, you will forgive yourself as part of the healing process.

    I don’t think anyone felt as STUPID as I did, I think us all thinking that WE are the QUEENS of STUPID is part of it too. LOL Now I just realize that I am HUMAN and that I made poor decisions, ignored red flags, and that even though I have made poor decisions in the past, today is a new day with new decision choices and I want to make better decisions today than I made in the past.

    By looking at the past poor decisions I made, seeing why they were poor, and in some cases deciding why I made them, I am able to see where I went wrong and correct that today and in the future. Beating myself up for being “so stupid” isn’t productive at all.

    I got some therapy and that has helped give me more insight into the “whys” of why I allowed someone(s) to abuse me for extended periods of time, or why I got involved with them in the first place. It has also made disconnecting from them easier, though it was still difficult as many of them were family members. But today I feel more centered and rational and emotionally happy and healthy than I have ever felt I think. So over all this may have been a very painful but very good lesson for me.

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    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 12:46pm

46. LilOrphan says:

    Did anyone read any Steven Carter, like “He’s Scared; She’s Scared” or “Help! I’m in Love With a Narcissist” when they were in the relationship? Somehow found those books last spring, in the middle of it all, and recognized so much of the patterns, both those of the P’s and those of us who were with them.

    That was the beginning of the end for me and the first step to stop self-blame. It’s ok to realize something is wrong with how we reacted and what we accepted, but that didn’t make the P do the things he/she chose to do to us.

    I’d highly recommend them to you and others, blackrose :

    Steven Carter’s Relationship Q&A:

    http://www.power-surge.com/php.....ationships

    Steven Carter’s books:

    http://www.power-surge.com/ask.....ions.shtml

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:00pm

47. blackrose says:

    Thanks for all the tips, I am now beginning to see, slowly, what a loser he really was, and he even told me that one time. Do these guys have some moments when they actually say the truth? All of his bragging about what he had accomplished, the years he served in the Navy, I always felt like saying, dude, you would have to be a hundred years old to do all of that. But I never made fun of him, if he sensed I was laughing at him in any way, he would become angry, but he always made fun of other people.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:06pm

48. hardlesson says:

    “Blackrose” keywords “He is the lie”. Your p was burned by cigarettes and locked in a closet. Mine was punished with her hands being put on stove burners and locked in the basement while her mother had her affairs.”She is the lie”. I really believe we somehow need to start our own sort of PCL-R-R using the power of the internet. The constant comments of “were we dating the same person?” or the similarity of so many of the stories to our own is a very powerful statement to exactly how they work.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:21pm

49. Beverly says:

    Hi LilOrphan. I have that book (He’s scared, She’s scared) and its the best book ever. I have the other one on order but it is out of print and its called something like ‘Help Im in Love with a Narcissist’.

    When I knew my ex was messing with my head, I went on the web to find out signs of cheating, then I was thinking he was committment phobic, so I bought the book and there are lots of references to narcissistic behaviour, but the penny still didnt drop for me until I went on a site about sociopaths and then the pennies starting falling like bricks. Then I found my way here six months ago.

    I also read the ‘Art of Seduction’, a training manual for users and abusers.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:31pm

50. blackrose says:

    So true, all the good things I remember about him are really the things I imagined in my mind. My dad was able to see through this guy from the beginning, even though he never talked to him or met him, he always said this guy was a compulsive liar. When my dad passed away unexpectedly, my P was very supportive, but he had no choice, he had to play the role. He did say a strange thing, that he had expected his dad to die before mine, his niece stated he was probably envious that he didn’t and that he was deprived of the attention he feels entitle to. I think that makes sense, when we did see each other, he always accused me of wanting other men to look at me, and that I wanted to take them home to have sex with them.

    I know am better off without him, but the humiliation of having been used bothers me. How can these people say they love someone if they don’t really mean it? I would never think of doing that to anyone, but he knew how vulnerable I was at that time in my life, and took advantage of that.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:39pm

51. Beverly says:

    Dear Blackrose, many of us have suffered that humiliation and disbelief of being taken for a ride. I wrote a list of the emotions I went through at the time; humiliation, grief, anger, torture. The bottom line is that these people do not function like you or me so we cannot measure our own responses to theirs – of course we would never do stuff like that to others, but they are not normal and their thinking is different and they have no empathy – it takes time to get your head around that – but it will come and you will get over your disbelief to realising that they are part of a subculture.

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    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:51pm

52. blackrose says:

    Thank you, I am beginning to accept that and getting more sleep.
    They are so good at playing games, do they ever get caught?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 1:57pm

53. blackrose says:

    He always claimed to be so compassionate, but I don’t think he was, he always said he respected me, but when he ended the relationship, he did not even bother to call me, he just stopped calling me. He is probably mad that I have not try to get in touch with him, but that’s on him. I don’t play games with people, and don’t know how. He’s a master at it.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 1 April 2008 @ 3:17pm

54. miranda says:

    I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice. I was involved in a relationship with a sociopath last year. I’ve been able to cut him out of my life and although he’s occasionally present at certain places that I go to with my friends, I can deal with it and ignore him completely.

    However, what has made me absolutely miserable is the revelation that for the latter few months of our relationship, he was telling all of his friends that I was psychotic, making out that I was this terrible person who made his life a misery and playing the sympathy card. Then he cheated on me but when I got angry at him and confronted him, a lot of people instantly took his side – because they’d been exposed to his catalogue of lies about me treating him like crap. And now, people I was friends with for years, who also got to know him around the time that we were together, have sided with him. They’ll report things I said in the past back to him, they’ll defend his behaviour – even though if someone did the same stuff to them they’d get really mad!!! It doesn’t seem to matter that I was totally abused, they don’t want to take sides and they think that me and him should get on together if we’re out – or that I shouldn’t ’cause trouble’. The evidence is all there that he’s done this and that he did it to other women too (I didn’t know about his history of abusing women until recently) so why won’t they believe me and support me?

    The worst bit is that they all bitched about me to the next boyfriend I had, who was a lovely guy, and we broke up because he couldn’t hack them hating me. And even though he’s aware a little bit of what they’re like (he doesn’t know the full details but knows they’re all untrustworthy, gossip-spreading and compulsive liars and also violent tendencies), he won’t take sides either. Is there any way I can do something about this, to make them all see what is so clearly evident to me and my good friends – that this man is a manipulative bastard and a sociopath and that his friends are total liars and people who have been manipulated? Or is there any way to expose him? I can’t bear the thought that some other poor girl will get treated like this and I’m so tired of getting crap from his friends, I want it to stop and don’t know how to make that happen.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 12 May 2008 @ 3:48pm

55. OxDrover says:

    Dear Miranda,

    Unfortunately, I wish I could tell you a way to accomplish what you would like to do–”clear your name” but the Ps do the “smear campaign” to cover up for their own bad behavior to others. You don’t even know it is going on until it is “too late” in most cases. Many of the things he has said are outright lies, I am sure, and if there is even a “GRAIN” of truth in anything, he will TWIST it 180 degrees until it is totally against you. Of course, he is 100% a sweet heart! YEA, RGHT! Puke!

    The only thing I can tell you is to avoid this entire GROUP of people, if you get a new BF keep him away from them.

    This is all typical P behavior and not much you can do to stop it…the more you protest, the worse it makes YOU look! EVen though YOU are the one telling the truth and HE IS LYING> I k now it is frustrating, but I would just avoid the entire bunch. Not have any contact with them at all. It is obvious that these people are not your freinds and what do you need them for, any more than you need him? Dump them all! Find new places to go and a set of people who won’t turn on you like snakes. Good luck.

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    Monday, 12 May 2008 @ 4:00pm

56. iradessa says:

    When I read this I identify I WANTED A RELATIONSHIP EVEN AFTER I KNEW WHAT HE WAS!!!! That is where I needed to put my focus on. My instincts and brain hae need rewired. I do whatever I can to keep my life from being intertwined. One is an x husband which can be tricky, but not impossible. The other I cut them all out and as lon;y or bored as I thought I would be I took steps to find other exciting things to do and I paid attention to the kind of people that were brought into my life. I would like to thing God put them there. I wanted to change that about me and when I had the awarness and the desire to change things started to slowly, peacefully start to happen and I have longer and longer intervals of joy and peace.
    When you escape from the Lion’s den don’t go back for your hat…get another hat. I’ll give you one of mine!!!!

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    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 1:16pm

57. rperk6069 says:

    Iradessa- Your last sentence…if you don’t mind, I think I will write that down and hang it on my refrigerator. It’s not only cute, but very true. Thanx

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    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 1:26pm

58. hummingbird1418 says:

    Beverly,
    The sociopath definitely puts on a false front – all charm and manners. He or she appears to be the perfect partner. They are attentive and listen to everything that you say. You are hooked before you even realize that you are being manipulated.

    Khatalyst:
    My sociopath works in my office. I do try to not discuss anything but work with him. I try not to listen to his conversations or pay any attention to his activities.

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    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 1:59pm

59. OxDrover says:

    QUOTE:

    “when you get out of the lion’s den, don’t go back for your hat”

    I have heard that before, long ago, and boy is it true. I hadn’t thought about it in YEARS, but it is SO GOOD and SO TRUE. I see so many women who do “go back for their hats” and I DID TOO until last summer, when I left my hat, my toothbrush, and everything else to “get the heck out of Dodge.”

    Yes, yes, YES! Get another hat! How true, how true! I know I put so much value on “hats” that can be replaced, it was only when I finally realized that I could get another hat but not another head to put it on that I DID something smart! Got out! and STAYED OUT! of the P relationships.

    Thanks Iradessa, a great saying! (((Hugs)))) you made my day!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 2:27pm

60. iradessa says:

    I am here to help, I need to be of use to my fellows. We heal in community, not isolation. You all help me more than you know…well that’s not true I am sure you do know…

    I was approached by a accomplice of my xhusband’s this weekend and as uncomfortable as it was I stood up for myself and said if you don’t go away I will call the police. I will not be a victim to disrespect, harrasment …I am still jittery and going to this site helps.. right now I am safe and allowing myself to be afraid. I am so grateful that I know enough to stay away instead of thrill seeking and trying to set this guy straight. I can’t and it doesn’t help me at all. I cannot wait to get into a warm bath tonight and comfort myself. Light wins over dark everytime and this site keeps me in the light in a community of people who support and who want to heal. You are all in my prayers and my heart is full of a hope I never had before..for all of those who have suffered the devastation of the evil doings of psychopaths.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 2:29pm

61. iradessa says:

    I love that I got another head to put in my hat. And I allow healthy women to fill my head with healthy thoughts and I know peace today. Thanks to you and your honesty and support. This site washed him and out and allows room for a healthy mind to grow and love.

    I allowed him to brainwash me. I believe we can change so it doesn’t happen again. But it takes some doing on our parts. I am willing to keep on doing the doing.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 2:37pm

62. OxDrover says:

    Iradessa,

    I too get more for myself out of helping others, because we all share so much. Each of us has a different “take” on things but they are all focused on healing. When I see a newbie come here and they are in SUCH pain that I inwardly weep for them, yet I know that they are in a safe place here and they will start to heal, and then in only a few weeks you see them giving advice to another newbie and you realize how you helped them, so they can HELP THEMSELVES AND THEN HELP OTHERS TOO…it is passed on, and MULTIPLIED over and over and over with healing.

    I think of all the people in my life that I maybe saw a time or two but they went out of their way to help me…most of those people have moved on in their lives and I can’t help them to “pay them back” for their kindnesses, but if I pass it on to someone else then I am “paying it back” to the Universe at least and just like “bread cast upon the waters” it will float somewhere to do some good for someone.

    Sometimes just a kind word or a smile to a harried young mother in a grocery check out line is a wonderful gift to her. You will never see her again, but if you lift her spirits for just a moment it may be the most pleasant moment of her day. I have been on the receiving end of so many tiny nice things like that that I feel if I don’t repay in any way I can I would be ungrateful for those gifts of caring which were given to me.

    I can’t fix the world (though I thought I could when I was 18) but all I can do is just help where I am, how I can. It won’t fix the entire world, but maybe it will give comfort to one person for one minute—and that is enough. “A cup of water, given in My name..”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 27 May 2008 @ 3:20pm

63. gemini says:

    Hello,

    I just found this site today and after reading some of the post, I know this is a blessing for me. It is conforting to know I am not the only person that has been a victim of craziness. I felt absolutly stupid for getting myself in a situation to be manipulated. I have come to the conclusion to just leave him alone…no contact…and the minimal by email. It is extremely hard as, we have a 6 yr old daughter. Not that he contributes to her well being, but he puts on the act of father of the year. So ridiculous. But now I have found this blog and it is enlighting to get advice from those who have survived. I regretfully have to deal with for at least 12 more years…or until my daughter realizes her father is different and not like normal people. I hope she get a clue soon so we both can leave this madness behind us and move on.

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    Wednesday, 28 May 2008 @ 11:22pm

64. creampuff says:

    Can someone help me? My dealings with a step daughter have me doubting my own sanity. I married her father 30 years ago. I knew the first moment I saw her that something was wrong. I had a total and complete biological reaction to her. I felt exposed, like I was prey. She was 2 !!! Now she is 32, married with 2 kids and I still feel like she is in the house. I always feel like she is watching me, plotting against me, but in such a subtle, sneaky way. Her grandmother was a sociopath, her mother was one, she is one, and now her oldest daughter is one! It has only been the last couple of years that I have come to understand what she is. Her mother abandoned her when she was a baby, left her Daddy to raise her, and pretty much stayed away. I was in love, and had a daughter myself and of course had a vision of being able to love her and make a happy family. It was only after we married that I realized the full extent of her problems. By then I was pregnant with “our” child and even though I was so overwhelmed, I have come to the conclusion that I should have never married him. It is only my enduring love for her father that has kept me here for 30 years. She is a demon. But she is so sneaky and so smooth that she has most people fooled. She can’t keep a job, uses people, is a thief, a liar, immoral, and if you ever cross her she will crucify you. She married the most wonderful young Christian man about 7 years ago and has systematically succeded in destroying him.She is horrible to his mother, I mean she has tormented this woman using the grandchildren.And yet he continues to stand by her and always takes her side. I think he is scared to death of her. There is no way I could ever go into every reason she has brought me to this place. She has such total control over the men in her life, they will go to any length not to cross her. She always saw me as an enemy that came between her and her Daddy, she sees the mother in law as competition for the husband. It has to be genetic. Her oldest child is exactly like her! But her other little girl doesnt’ have IT !! It is so strange. You feel like she scans you , her facial expressions can turn in an instant. She can get you back for stuff in ways that you would never expect. She can think on her feet better than anyone I ever met, she can talk her way out of anything. She lies about everything. She can seduce any man she wants and she is not even pretty, she just knows how to work it. She is so scary because she comes across so normally ….she can strike when you least expect it. There has always been an animalistic quality about her. She toys with people. She loves to watch them squirm. She loves to throw you off balance. She loves to corner you and put you on the spot. Her father and I have been able to hold the family together for the most part, but I am a Christian and am finding it harder and harder to even have her in my life. I am trapped and will have to just put up with it. I have become very good at “bobbin and weavin”…if she is at my house I keep a very close eye on her, hide my purse and try to keep her at arm’s length. If she is in one room, I try to go in another room. I try to change the subject when I can and just keep the peace when possible. I just want to tell you how much this site has helped me and if others have the chance to “get out while you can”….my gut, my instincts, and everything in me screamed at me to run all those many years ago, but I did not listen. If you gut is telling you to run….listen to it……when somebody shows you who they are….BELIEVE THEM !!!! They don’t get better…..they don’t change…they will destroy you,one little “gotcha” at a time, until you don’t even trust your own sanity…it is a really bad feeling to try to explain them to someone and they just don’t get it ! My normal baby daughter and I have always used the term “icky” to describe her…..I cannot even remember what life was like before she was in it. Thanks guys for listening to me vent. God Bless

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    Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 9:10pm

65. geminigirl says:

    Dear creampuff, you have EXACTLY described BOTh of my spath daughters, aged 44 and almost 46! If you care to look back at my blogs about them, you have described them both to a T!
    More later! Love, geminigirl.XX Ps I am not the same,’gemini’ as the one in the post above yours.Gem.

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    Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 9:55pm

66. ErinBrock says:

    Creampuff:
    Your post kinda freaked me out at first…..(noharm meant)….because I keep expecting my ex mil to show up here…..or someone from ‘his’ family……
    Your story describes the s ex perfectly…..although i’m sure if you’ve read any of the posts….it describes a lot of our ’stories’…..
    I’m not sure what your asking for…..but I think it’s what do I do?
    I think you have a great handle on ‘what’ your dealing with and have listened to your gut….and your advise to others is so spot on!!!
    Tha’ts the first step…..’getting it’!!!!!
    You ‘got it’ girl!!
    Well….I am assuming your tired of it and don’t wish to live like this anymore…..without some validation from your husband or other family members of ‘her’ behaviors….
    It’s tough…..and the best way to expose it to do it silently and with intent.
    Never let anyone ‘close’ know what your up to……but YOU have to change the way you’ve dealt with her up until now….
    You need to ‘plant seeds’ and let HER water the seedlings……and you can sit back and watch her expose herself.
    Remove yourself from her manipulations….subtly….if she usually comes to you for something…..pawn her off on her father……(this will piss her off too…..)
    Things like that.
    Never be in a room alone with her……always have a ‘witness’…..to her behaviors…..soon enough….they will see….
    then you can plant the seeds of CLuster B’s….in your hubby’s head……maybe leave a book laying around or a pamplet on cluster B’s or sociopaths……in a ‘not so obvious’, but obvious place…..like by a telephone or on top of the desk you both share……. covertly….

    Ya see….you’ve probably already figured this out…..that you can’t ’shove’ this info down someones throat by speaking about it……they get defensive…..and until they see the behaviors and ‘get it’….and connect with it…..they remain or may even go closer to the S.
    Like your husband defending his daughter or grandaughter…..I could see this no doubt…..defensive….
    And you’d be the old bitty who is jelous of them, for whatever reasons…….
    that’s how that’d go….
    So….educate yourself as much as possible….read the articles here….and post whenever you need to…..we can relate and you will find support and validation here……

    Maybe if you share a computer…..leave up a screen on sociopaths….like the warning signs….when you know hubby will be on the computer……
    If you wnat to remain anonymous and continue to post freely, I’m not so sure I’d leave up LF….maybe later….
    Eventually, he may start ‘getting’ it…….but you just can’t hold your breath…….
    They will always have someone in their corner to scream to the world that they are just ‘misunderstood’…..or they are like this because their mother abandoned them……yadayada…..

    These are my thoughts……and I hope they offer you something to think about….
    Welcome to LF….I’m very glad you found our little slice of society that ‘gets it’…..and can understand what your going through!
    In the meantime……take care of YOURSELF!!!!

    Again, welcome!!

    XOO
    EB

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    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 12:03am

67. OxDrover says:

    Dear Creampuff,

    Welcome, I’m glad you found LoveFraud, but gosh am I sorry you felt a need to search for this place.

    Sounds like you have already got the part about figuring out what they ARE and HOW THEY BEHAVE down pat, and it sounds like the 30 years “experience” you have with this child/woman has been not only educational but painfully educational.

    Her manipulating the “men” in her life is very typical, and I am assuming from your post that maybe her father doesn’t “get” what she is doing either.

    Having one of these PEOPLE in the “family” and dividing the family is very painful as many of us can testify as there is always a “division of sides” where they are concerned.

    I gave birth to one of these monsters and grew up in a family with a high proportion of them, and their ENABLERS/DUPES behaving as their “psychopaths by proxy” doing their bidding.

    I’m not sure what the “answer” to your “question” is—if there is a question or if there is an answer, but YOUARE NOT ALONE in this, there are others of us out there who have these human reptiles in our families, and we know the pain of trying to deal with it.

    “Outing” them may or may not be possible as it isn’t just a matter of LOGIC or TRUTH, it is “emotional” attachment, or trauma bonding. Protecting yourself with witnesses may be the best tactic for now until you decide what you want to do with YOUR life. God bless you!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 12:29am

68. creampuff says:

    Thanks everyone….such a comfort to know we are not alone. I guess I really wasn’t asking for a solution to my problems….just advice on coping. I appreciate the suggestions. Does anyone out there experience how to deal with them from a Christian perspective? On the one hand my Christian beliefs demand us to love everyone, but on the other hand I do believe in evil in this world and think they are pawns of Satan, used to distract and destroy us Christians using the very tools that make us loving and compassionate. That has been my biggest struggle. Trying to resolve in my own head that she is not redeemable. I have just felt so torn inside. Is it ever right to just give up on someone? I went to a Christian counselor a few years ago trying to resolve some of the conflict in my heart, but she didn’t “get it”…..after a few sessions I felt like I was the crazy one, so I didn’t go back. I am convinced that until you have dealt with one in your own life, you cannot really describe them to “outsiders”. Looking back over these past 30 years so many things are now explaining themselves to me. How she had absolutely NO impulse control as a child, how she lied about everything, how she was insanely jealous of other females, how she NEVER slept, she would roam around the house at night so quietly and sneaky like she was a ghost or something. And when she did sleep she looked so strange, almost like she was dead or something. I know this is so strange and I have never uttered this to another soul, but I have always thought she had immoral thoughts and desires for her own father (my husband).She would kiss him right on the lips and look longingly into his eyes in an almost romantic way. Of course he would brush her off, but I think he thought it too, but could not allow himself to “go there”. She has always hugged him a little too long, a little too closely, it just really creeps me out! I sometimes wish I could just scrape her off me, like she’s a virus or something that lays dormant for awhile, but in the end it always rears it’s ugly head. Does anyone else feel like that even if you moved 1,000 miles away they would still be in your head? It drives you crazy. I am just so tired of feeling like prey. Trying to outsmart them or at least stay one step ahead of them is so draining. As for her father, he has admitted that he knows she has problems, but he is so passive agressive himself that he will avoid conflict with her at any cost, mostly for the sake of the 2 grandchildren. I think deep down he is scared of her too. My main concern is the Christian vantage point. I feel guilty because I CANNOT LOVE HER !!! All I ever want to do is just get away from her. Thanks again for all the help. We all need a place to vent.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 12:45pm

69. ErinBrock says:

    I’ll tell ya……the religious view was what brought my MIL right back to her spath stepson…….
    I’ve questioned it, since watching her quandry….
    She would tell me of the conversations she had with her pastor….and the forgiveness deal…..
    Then I KNOW the reality…….and how the S would exploit her religious viewpoints and niceties…….

    Funny thing……no one in the church would turn away someone claiming to be ‘with god’…..or a believer……
    This is the spaths new approach…….he’s a christian?!?! YIKES…..
    But, thats the whole deal of the church……accept everyone…..

    I just can’t buy into it! Watching the spath exploit those true believers…..
    This is where I believe its prudent to mesh/blend…..real life….2010…..with your religious beliefs…..
    and the wisdom to know the difference.

    I don’t mean to offend anyone….this was/is a sore spot to me….cuz of the spath…..and seeing what hes’s currently doing to gain supply and more victims…….through his ‘newfound’ religion.

    Just my view.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 12:58pm

70. OxDrover says:

    Dear Creampuffr,

    The problems I had with being a Christian and “loving” them was the DEFINITION of the word “Love”–I studied the Bible on this and talked with very educated ministers of several denominations and what I ended up with is this>

    The word “Love” in the Bible is NOT A GUSHY FEELING, it is an ACTION. If you “love your neighbor as thy self” you are TREATING THEM WELL, not setting fire to their panties.

    Forgiving them is kind of the same way. Forgiveness as demonstrated in the story of Joseph whose brothers sold him into slavery was not the same as TRUSTING them again. He got the bitterness against them out of his heart, but he TESTED them to see what kind of menn they had become in the 20+ years since he had seen them. He TESTED them pretty harshly, but saw in the end that they had changed and would literally SACRIFICE themselves to save Benjamin rather than let Benjamin be taken as a slave and their father go to his grave grieving because of it.

    The apostle Paul told us that in dealing with a brother (fellow Christian or I think also someone in close family would qualify) if we had a problem with them to go to them privately and to talk to them about it. If that didn’t work, then to go to talk to them with witnesses. If that didn’t work, to go to the church about the problem. THEN if that didn’t work, to WITHDRAW FELLOWSHIP with them, NOT EVEN TO EAT WITH THEM.

    This is what I did with my egg donor, actually, though, the “church” would not listen or believe me or what I had to say. However that is what my way of going about it was.

    Jesus also said that we must look at the FRUIT that people produce and see what kind of “tree” they are. If the fruit is rotten so is the tree. Now it may be that your husband doesn’t see what is going on at all.

    Yesterday in post 116 ROSA posted a quote from the book “Stalking the Soul” about EMOTIONAL ABUSE that might apply to what you are going through. ” this is a cold, verbal violenced composed of disparagement, implied hostility, and condescending and wounding insults. The destructive effects come from seeminglharless but continuous attacks that one knows will never stop. Every insult echoes previous ones, which makes it impossible to forget….” and so on.

    You might want to get this book, in fact I think I will do that myself.

    If your husband and other men in the family are under her “spell” it may be difficult to rally forces against her, because she WILL NEVER CHANGE and will turn this around to bite YOU and your daughter in the butt. The only way to deal with these people is to get away from them, NO contact, or such limited contact that they can’t damage you.

    You can ALSO train your mind to not let this get to you as it has in the past (difficult but doable.) My son and I have a dear friend who is married to one of these “drama queens” and we tolerate her in order to maintain a relationship with HIM.

    It used to be much more difficult and painful for me to be around her than it has become, because I turned off my emotions toward her. I really do not have any “love” (the gushy kind) for her at all. She is just in my opinion, something I don’t want to be around and I limit the amount of time I spend with her.

    It is difficult if your husband insists on entertaining her and her P offspring, etc or giving her money etc. but you may want to come to an understanding with him about your involvement with this P.

    A cousin of mine and her husband adopted his biological niece and she is a P. Finally after several years they agreed to disagree. He continued to support the adopted dtr somewhat by buying a small house she could live in, but no other financial support and he would go see the dtr whenever he wanted to, but he did not come home and talk about the girl/woman and he and his wife did fine, agreeing to disagree and he had at least some relationship with the dtr but his wife did not. So each at least was able to “live with” that arrangement. I hope you are able to work something out with your husband and the rest of the members of your family.

    Backk years ago my egg donor (previously called mother) made my life hell because I did not want to share holidays with her brother Uncle Psychopathic Monster, she would try to guilt me by crying and telling me how I was RUINING HER Holidays, obviously she never got it that SHE was ruining mine. But I would pick up my kids and go else where for the holidays rather than share them with her Brother Uncle monster. Rinse and repeat next holiday. To this day I don’t really care much about the “holidays”—

    But I am hoping that you can work something out thatj will be at least semi satisfying with you and your daughter and your husband and THAT daughter and the rest of the family.

    One of my step son’s wife is a “drama queen” and when he would come to visit with his father before my husband’s death, I would just go somewhere else—”OOPs, sorry, had plans.” We get along okay now and she has become much more “civilized” in her behavior and the nasty cracks have stopped. Thank goodness he finally laid down the law to her after their only child was 18—and set boundaries. You want to keep bieng married ot me, cut the BS! Act nice or else!

    I hope your husband will “get it” and be supportive to you, but if he doesn’t that wouldn’t be a big suprise either.

    I think that book that Rosa quoted from though might jbe a good one for you. Good luck and God bless ((((Hugs)))))

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    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 1:50pm

71. tobehappy says:

    What About “Love Your Enemies”? (Matthew 5: 44-48)

    WHAT ABOUT “LOVE YOUR ENEMIES”?

    By Rev. Renee

    But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven…..If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect…..Matthew 5: 44-48 NIV

    We recently received an e-mail with a thought-provoking question. The Lord has led me to use this question and its answer in an article. I believe it is especially relevant to our situation, and I pray that it will bless you. Many thanks to our Sister who took the time to write to us with this excellent question.

    Q: I have been reading your site with interest – thanks for it. I just wondered how you interpret the instructions to love our enemies?

    A: Thanks so much for writing. I’m so glad you’re enjoying our site. Praise the Lord! That’s really a great question. It’s really sad and unfortunate that some people will choose to be our enemies even though we never wanted it that way. I don’t see any conflict at all in loving someone while still setting limits on their behavior, rebuking them, or even leaving them if necessary.

    Rebuke, setting boundaries, and even enforcing consequences can all be acts of love, done in love. We love our children, but we still set limits on their behavior, teach them right from wrong, disapprove when they hurt others, and teach them good manners, thoughtfulness, consideration and to treat others nicely. We take the time to rebuke and teach them precisely because we DO love them. We can do the same with our abusive relatives. We can expect proper behavior from them, disapprove of causing pain for others, have boundaries, and refuse to be subjected to abuse or evil, and still love them. The reason we try so hard to work things out is because we love them. But do they love us enough to work things out?

    After we have confronted them and stated our boundaries, it is then their choice whether they will respect our limits or continue to abuse. It is their choice whether the relationship will be able to continue, or will have to end. Many abusers, when confronted with limits on their behavior, will choose to end the relationship rather than change, and will disown us. This will cause us much sorrow, precisely because we do love and miss them. It will take time before we will be able to heal and move on.

    There are also times when we will have no choice but to be the ones to walk away from a toxic relationship. This is a very difficult decision, usually reached in desperation after many years of trying everything we could think of to make the relationship work, and reluctantly coming to realize that it takes two to tango, and our relative does not care about us enough to even try. We spend most of our lives trying to change things precisely because we DO love our relative and want so much to have a nice relationship. It is very painful to walk away from someone we love, but there are times we have no choice.

    Loving someone does not mean you have to have a relationship with them. As we go through life, most of us at one time or another will have the experience of just not being able to be with someone we love, because we’re not good together, not good for each other, or they’re not right for us or healthy for us. This could be an old boyfriend, a childhood school chum, or a family member. As time passes, we come to accept this and know that it’s a part of life, and maybe even look back on our time with that person fondly while moving on with our own lives. Loving someone does not mean staying in a toxic situation. Sometimes you love someone but you still have to walk away. You can love someone from a distance if that’s what it takes to be safe and healthy.

    Abusers, of course, are going to accuse us of not loving them if we set limits on them, rebuke them, disown them, or even if they disown us. This is due to many reasons, including manipulation, yet another attempt to control us, or their trademark denial and refusal to be accountable for their own behavior and to blame us or everyone else for the consequences of their own actions. They are looking at it from a warped perspective and we should not take their accusations of unlovingness on our parts seriously. The ones who are unloving in the relationship are THEM, not us.

    Love doesn’t mean allowing yourself to be abused, exploited, mistreated, and victimized. It doesn’t mean letting the person you love do anything they want, no matter how wrong or evil, without ever stopping them. You do not owe the people you love a lifetime of being allowed to walk all over you. If they refuse to treat you with love, then you can still love them as a part of your past, while understanding and accepting that, for reasons not in your control, they cannot be a part of your present, and will not be a part of your future. You will mourn and grieve this loss, as you would the loss of anyone you love. And then you will begin to heal and move on to a better life.

    So these are the reasons why I have no problem reconciling loving those who choose to be our enemies while still protecting ourselves and our other loved ones. I don’t see anything contradictory about what we teach on our website and loving our relatives. Love and boundaries are not mutually exclusive.

    Copyright 2003-2010.-All articles on this site are copyrighted. Permission to copy is granted for non-profit use only.Please help yourself to anything we write if you can use it to help others. A link back to this site is our only requirement. Please contact us for any commercial or other use. All e-mails, letters, and other correspondence become the property of Luke 17:3 Ministries, Inc. Due to the large volume of e-mails, we’re sorry that we are unable to personally answer every one, but we do lift everyone who writes to us in prayer to the Lord. Please understand that we cannot give you personal advice concerning your particular family relationships. We are not therapists

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    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:00pm

72. tobehappy says:

    No Forgiveness For The Unrepentant
    NO FORGIVENESS FOR THE UNREPENTANT

    By Sister Renee Pittelli

    Have you ever had it happen that when you rebuked an abuser, not only did she refuse to apologize, repent, or change her hurtful behavior, but she then proceeded to smugly inform you that “God forgives her” because “God forgives everything”, and that the Bible says that you have to forgive her, too? I have, more than once.

    And all I can say to that is, “Nice try.” Because it’s just not true. Biblical forgiveness doesn’t work that way. Not even close. God forgives everybody who REPENTS, not everybody who doesn’t repent, and continues sinning. Repentance means turning from one’s sinful ways and changing one’s LIFE. It does not mean continuing on as before, and it also does not mean stopping just one or two obnoxious behaviors while continuing all the rest, or even finding some new ones. It might surprise such self-righteous offenders to learn that God does NOT forgive “everybody”, and that he does NOT tell us to, either. In fact, there is NOT ONE INSTANCE in Scripture of the Lord forgiving anyone who remains “stiff-necked” (stubborn) and unrepentant.

    Before one starts quoting the Bible, it might be a good idea to actually READ IT first. When ungodly people state that God’s Word says something that justifies or facilitates their wickedness, I just love to hand them a Bible and ask them to show me exactly where it says that. Usually, they get all flustered, angry, or embarrassed, and quickly change the subject or storm off in a huff. If, by some remote chance, they can actually find the Scripture they’re referring to (and conveniently misinterpreting), then we can read it in context and explore it together- but that hasn’t happened to me yet!

    Those who know the Lord and study his Word know that he has such a heart of love for the downtrodden and the broken-hearted, and that he desires us to be free of every kind of bondage. God’s Word is infallible, and God does not play mean little tricks on abuse victims. He NEVER says anything that would make it easier for a sinner to keep on sinning or an abuser to keep on abusing. To even suggest otherwise is to reveal a profound ignorance of God’s divine nature.

    Biblically speaking, NO ONE gets forgiven without changing his ways and turning to God and godliness. The New Testament includes an additional requirement for meriting forgiveness- accepting Jesus as one’s Lord and Savior (and no one who has genuinely done that can continue abusing others). Abusers would just love an excuse to obligate us to forgive them without the slightest effort to make amends, commitment to change, or anything expected of them at all. It’s the Abuser’s Dream Gig- to be able to commit one evil deed after another with impunity, and then pervert the Word of God by claiming that others have to repeatedly and unconditionally forgive her. This is utter nonsense.

    BE NOT DECEIVED; GOD IS NOT MOCKED: FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP….Galatians 6:7. The Bible is not an excuse for abusive people to have a field day without ever suffering any consequences. Distorting the Word of God to get away with evil is an indication of the demonic nature of such people, not of their innocence and good intentions. Ask any deliverance minister and you will learn that twisting God’s Word to facilitate evil is one of the most common tactics used by demons.

    Abusers by definition wouldn’t have the slightest idea what the Bible REALLY says about forgiveness, or anything else. It’s not like they spend a lot of time studying God’s Word and applying it to their lives. They’re just repeating something they heard somewhere along the line, and twisting it to suit their own purposes. They’re using what they imagine Scripture says to pressure us and guilt us into forgiving them when they have done nothing whatsoever to deserve our forgiveness.

    Some abusers like to call themselves Christians, because it enables them to get away with abusive behavior more frequently without being challenged or confronted. These people might actually be familiar with Scripture, and then use it, twist it, and take it out of context to justify their behavior and attempt to deceive us into forgiving them when no forgiveness is warranted. But talk is cheap. We need to study the Bible concerning this, and pray for the discernment and wisdom to distinguish between REAL Christians and PRETEND Christians- those who are conveniently “Christian” only when it suits them. One big clue is that REAL Christians ACT LIKE real Christians. This means they do NOT mistreat other people.

    The Bible does in fact tell us that we should forgive as the Lord forgave us (Colossians 3:13; Ephesians 4:32). But there are requirements for forgiveness. If we read in more depth and in context about God forgiving us, including the hows, whys and under what circumstances, we will see that he only forgives us when we come to him in the spirit of remorse, change our lives through his Son, ask for forgiveness, and repent (CHANGE). So if we are to forgive others as God forgives us, then we are to forgive them AFTER they have shown genuine remorse by the grace of Jesus’ cleansing blood, and AFTER they have repented (CHANGED), NOT BEFORE. That is the formula for forgiveness which God models for us, and that is the formula which he instructs us to follow.

    Other Scriptural examples of the Lord forgiving us IF AND WHEN WE REPENT are written in Ezekiel 33:10-20, Isaiah 55:6-7, Jeremiah 6:16-30 & 26:3, Luke 13:3 & 5, Acts 3:19. These are just a few of the examples we can study that will educate us about God’s prerequisites and requirements for forgiveness.

    We are not to cheapen the gift of forgiveness by giving it prematurely or undeservedly, to those who demand it and act as if they are entitled to it, and yet have done nothing to merit it. The Lord’s higher purpose is to change men’s hearts and make them turn from evil, give up their wicked ways, and choose to follow HIM instead of Satan. He does that by requiring repentance before forgiveness, not by giving evildoers a free ride.

    In Luke 17:3, Jesus tells us very clearly that we are to forgive someone who sins against us IF he repents. He does NOT tell us to forgive everyone, including those who have absolutely no remorse and fully intend to continue abusing others and behaving badly. That would be preposterous and contradictory. God does not do nonsensical things that do not serve his ultimate purpose of bringing all men into his grace and his presence.

    When an abuser refuses to change his ways, stop abusing, and start doing good, we are unable to grant him forgiveness. When we cannot forgive him because of his intention to continue repeating his wickedness, then God does not forgive him, either. AGAIN JESUS SAID, “PEACE BE WITH YOU! AS THE FATHER HAS SENT ME, I AM SENDING YOU.” AND WITH THAT HE BREATHED ON THEM AND SAID, “RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. IF YOU FORGIVE ANYONE HIS SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN; IF YOU DO NOT FORGIVE THEM, THEY ARE NOT FORGIVEN”….John 20: 21-22 NIV. God does not want us to continue to be abused. And he does not want us to allow abusers to continue their abuse with no consequences. In fact, we are told numerous times to shun evildoers ( some of these Scriptures are: Proverbs 22:10, Proverbs 22: 24, Proverbs 23:9, Proverbs 24: 25, Proverbs 25: 4-5, Proverbs 24:24, Proverbs 26:24-26, Psalm 37:9, Psalm 119:115, Proverbs 19:19, Matthew 18: 15-17, Titus 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 5:11). Look up “rebuke” in a large Concordance, and you will also find dozens of references (see the section on Rebuking on our site).

    The Bible teaches that all evil behavior has consequences. The only way to come into a state of grace is to give up sinfulness and walk in the ways of the Lord, in love for others. Abusers by nature could not care less about coming closer to God, and usually need some extra incentive to straighten up and fly right. That incentive is often some kind of social censure, which may, for a particular individual, include our refusal to forgive him until and if he has earned it.

    There are times that God will use us in this way to bring a person into repentance and to him. By forgiving unremorseful evildoers, we are not helping them and we are not serving God’s purposes. We are depriving them of the opportunity to repent and transform their lives, to truly accept Jesus as their Savior so their sins can be washed away, and to walk forever with our Father. By interfering with God’s Law of Sowing and Reaping, we are preventing God’s purpose from being fulfilled in that individual’s life.

    The Lord requires that we do our part in bringing others to repentance. SON OF MAN, I HAVE MADE YOU A WATCHMAN FOR THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; SO HEAR THE WORD I SPEAK AND GIVE THEM WARNING FROM ME. WHEN I SAY TO THE WICKED, “O WICKED MAN, YOU WILL SURELY DIE,” AND YOU DO NOT SPEAK OUT TO DISSUADE HIM FROM HIS WAYS, THAT WICKED MAN WILL DIE FOR HIS SIN, AND I WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS BLOOD. BUT IF YOU DO WARN THE WICKED MAN TO TURN FROM HIS WAYS AND HE DOES NOT DO SO, HE WILL DIE FOR HIS SIN, BUT YOU WILL HAVE SAVED YOURSELF.”…Ezekiel 33:7-9.

    So despite attempts by ungodly people to mislead, deceive or pressure us, we need to stand firm in the knowledge that the Lord does not forgive those who are ’stiff-necked’ , refuse to repent, and intend to continue in their sinful ways, and he does not expect us to, either. There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness. There are CONDITIONS on receiving forgiveness, there is a REASON for those conditions, and the conditions are repentance and turning from one’s evil ways. Forgiveness is not to be given just because someone simply demands it, or insists he is entitled to it. It is only to be offered to those who are truly worthy of it.

    For the answer to the abuser’s most common attempt to mislead you about this teaching, see the article “If You Say There Is No Forgiveness Without Repentance In The Bible, Then What About ‘Father Forgive Them For They Know Not What They Do’”? (Luke 23:34).

    For more on this subject, see the articles in the sections of our website entitled Rebuking and Repenting & Apologies.

    If you are interesting in reading more about the Biblical model for forgiveness and offering unconditional forgiveness or forgiveness without repentance, we recommend the RBC website. Click HERE for one article and HERE for another one.

    Copyright 2003-2010.-All articles on this site are copyrighted. Permission to copy is granted for non-profit use only.Please help yourself to anything we write if you can use it to help others. A link back to this site is our only requirement. Please contact us for any commercial or other use. All e-mails, letters, and other correspondence become the property of Luke 17:3 Ministries, Inc. Due to the large volume of e-mails, we’re sorry that we are unable to personally answer every one, but we do lift everyone who writes to us in prayer to the Lord. Please understand that we cannot give you personal advice concerning your particular family relationships. We are not therapists or lawyers, we usually do not have enough information to form an opinion, and time does not permit us to give enough thought to each person’s individual situation to do it justice. If you need personal advice, we urge you to contact the appropriate professional, depending on the problem you have- your minister, therapist, attorney, police department, local domestic violence hotline, etc. In reading this site, you acknowledge that nothing you might read here qualifies as or substitutes for professional advice. Our articles are strictly our personal opinions and testimonies and are not intended to give or offer any advice. All who access this site do so with the understanding that we are NOT professional counselors and we strongly recommend that you discuss your individual situation with your pastor or therapist and pray for the Lord’s guidance before acting on anything we write on this site. Unfortunately, the abuse we discuss is all too common, inflicted on countless victims by countless perpetrators. All names and identifying details in our articles have been changed to protect the innocent as well as the guilty. Any resemblance to a real person or persons whom you might know is strictly coincidental.

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    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:01pm

73. tobehappy says:

    Creampuffr…
    I sent you these because they cleared up my confusion too.
    I hope they helped…

    I never thought that SATAN was really roaming this earth..until now. I thought it was just a myth in the Bible or a representation of “evil” in the world.

    I am NOW convinced…that there needs to be EVIL in the world…to counteract what is GOOD.

    I totally believe that the closer you get to GOD…( the better a person you are)..the more the EVIL SATANS tempt us.

    I was always an “angel” …nice to everyone…helped out the “fall guy”…etc…known as a “sweet” person.

    Now I realize that I didn’t have the WISDOM to see how VULNERABLE I was by thinking everyone was GOOD.

    I grew up strict Catholic and had it ingrained in me to LOVE everyone. I forgot that you are supposed to LOVE YOURSELF (protect yourself) FIRST!!!!

    I hope these articles help you.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:10pm

74. OxDrover says:

    Dear 2B,

    I see the answer as a little different, but basically the same thing. To me, “love” is not a “squishy feelin” at all it is DOING GOOD to someone, accompanied or not by the squishy feeling.

    It does NOT mean that you allow abuse.

    Just like “honoring your father and mother” does not mean allowing them to abuse you….my egg donor says that “honoring them” means don’t disagree with them…LOL…yea, RIGHT! NOT!!!!

    Honoring them to me means becoming the kind of person that would HONOR A PARENT who would be proud to have a son/daughter like me. It means being the best that I can be. It doesn’t matter if the person who gave birth to me approves of what I am or not, but what God approves of what I have become. I am HIS “child” because he has been a Father to me, she was never a mother to me.

    Just as the Bible said to wives to be in submission to the husbands, it also said for the husbands to love their wives AS THEMSELVES, so a husband would be EXTREMELY KIND to his wife in order to follow the command of the Bible to love her as himself.

    The Bible also tells parents to “not provoke their children to wrath” (wrath being vengeful, hateful anger that keeps on smoldering) The kind of anger produced by unfair and harsh treatment of a child or young adult (or older adult for that matter).

    Parents are taught to bring the child up in the NURTURE and admonition of the Lord—not the BROW BEATING with emotional or physical violence that many parents use.

    It is up to us to NURTURE the children we are given custody of by God and nature.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:13pm

75. tobehappy says:

    Yes…my xhusb got into the Bible and church as a crutch after his stripper left him…after he abandoned 3 children!

    Then he said that he will beat them on visitation if they are BAD. He said the Bible says…”spare the rod”…etc..

    Ignorant people just take from the Bible and interpret what THEY want to do. UGH>..

    There are SO many hypocrites in churches! Not all…but SO MANY.

    This woman I work with went to church religiously. In the meantime…she IS SATAN…abuses her kid…sexually provokes men at work….sleeps with married me…UGH!!!

    So….we need to be careful about the whole organized religious stuff.

    My father went to a priest when he was in financial trouble and he told him to LIE to my mother or she would divorce him!!! This LIE ruined everyone’s life…his, hers, and all five of us kids!!!!

    So be it.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:21pm

76. OxDrover says:

    Dear 2B,

    It doesn’t matter which “denomination” or which “religion” there will always be someone who abuses the “church” by whatever name–the “ministers” (by whatever the term uses) are also humans and some of them are psychopaths and use the “cover” of religion and spirituality and the supposition that a person who is “a minister” wouldn’t do bad things. Or, worse yet, when it is known that a minister is doing bad things, the higher ups COVER IT UP to spare the “church” from EMBARASSEMENT!

    The World wide SEX ABUSE by Catholic priests being covered up by Bishops and others higher has finally literally come to the point that the Pope of all people is in one way or another involved in some of these cover ups (before he was Pope) But it isn’t just the Catholic church, we had a coach/teacher/principal here in Arkansas arrested for molesting multiple girls and he had been reported 10 years previously and it had not been reported to police as the LAW DEMANDS by the superintendent of the church school. Keep it quiet, handle it internally, and keep on giving him/her a chance to DO IT AGAIN!

    I become RABID over child molestation by anyone, and especially parents, teachers, ministers, and cops and others who are supposed to PROTECT these children. It is bad enough when STRANGERS do it, but TRUSTED individuals are the most numerous and the worst betrayals I think.

    Oh, well, off my soap box. Jesus advised us to “inspect the fruit” and if the fruit is rotten, to cut down the tree….so I think it behooves us to check out what people do to see what kind of people they are.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:51pm

77. silvermoon says:

    Ox,
    inspect the fruit” and if the fruit is rotten, to cut down the tree…

    Thanks. I like that one. And, I needed to hear it today.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 3:39pm

78. OxDrover says:

    In my Bible studies I got on a “kick” where I studied the sayings of Jesus in the Gospels and looked at what He recommended in the way to treat others, as well as how he treated others (not only the words, but the actions as well) Some good ideas in there.

    I also love reading Paul, he is so “educated” in philosophy that sometimes his analogies etc are hard to follow but at the same time, he is pretty good at getting to the HEART of the matter in our thinking and behavior.

    People frequently quote the “judge not” that ye be not judged, etc. but that does NOT in my opinion mean that we should not use COMMON SENSE to tell how someone is acting, either for good or evil. If you see someone steal something it is not judging to say that PERSON STOLE SOMETHING. That is fruit inspection. Every “tree” has a rottenn apple now and then, but that doesn’t mean the TREE is BAD it just means it isn’t perfect, but if the MAJORITY of the crop is bad then there might be something wrong with the TREE. DUH! Pretty simple.

    To me “judging” is to unfairly think you can read someone’s mind and know what their thoughts about things are. Inspecting fruit is looking at the OUTSIDE of the fruit and clearly seeing that you sure don’t want that in your mouth—it stinks.

    My egg donor one time EXCUSED herself lying to me because if she had told me the truth, I “would have been mad and thrown a fit.” Actually, I would have done neither, but she JUDGED and came up with an EXCUSE that she knew me so well she could read my mind. Of course I realize that she can’t read my mind, and at the time I was so upset, I bargainded with her and begged her to BELIEVE ME, and before long it turned around into how I was LYING TO HER, I WOULD TOO HAVE BEEN MAD AND THROWN A FIT, so she was justified. How can you PROVE what you WOULD NOT have done something or thought something? LOL Talk about a double bind and a catch 22! That is the ultimate.

    AT the time I was so upset and things were so chaotic that I couldn’t see the gaslighting going on, but that is part of how they work you by creating doubt in yourself, and like a dog you crawl on your belly trying to appease them and to get them to quit attacking.

    Heck, most dogs (with a few breed exceptions) and even a wolf will STOP ATTACKING when the one they are attacking SUBMITS, not a psychopath, they just tear into your throat and get WORSE.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 4:48pm

79. flowerpower says:

    Judge not does not mean to throw wisdom and discernment out of the window. The “judge” in the “judge not”(Mat. 7:1) refers to treatement of others. My ex loved to use this verse. but :

    “For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged”. so says Jesus! Read on…

    “And why worry about a speck in your friends eye when you have a log in your own?”. I love this. THAT is judgement. Looking for the tiniest flawin others but NOT recognizing what you are doing at all. Arrogance.

    And read further because it gets better.Mat 7:6. Jesus says “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs. They will trample the pearls, then turn around and trample you!”.

    We have all survived pig-tramplin, pearl throwing messes! Save your pearls and run from the pigs. This makes me laugh as I picture a bunch of muddy pigs with pearl necklaces ready for their next meal…and that was my life. LOL!

    We are to use good judgment..which for me is the word of God .How else to measure good from evil?right from wrong? How else to make decisions? Remember, dont judge a book by its cover. We can judge books but not hearts? No, with books and people, you look inside to make a decision.

    Without judgment, anything goes. I mess up daily. I have the good “judgement” (wisdom) to realize it and try to make things right. THAT is what is missing here. For scriptural reference study I John 1:10:

    ” If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.”

    This means we are perfect. God is a liar. We dont need him or his truths…He has no wisdom for us to learn because we know it all. WE have it all under control and ANYTHING goes. So that way we can mistreat people and say “judge not”. Dont think so.

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    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 7:31pm

80. OxDrover says:

    Absolutely, Flower power!

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    Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 7:52pm

81. creampuff says:

    OxDrover, I just wonder how you got it “so together?” You seem to have it all worked out in your head. You seem quite brilliant and so in tune with how the sociopathic mind works. I’m really hoping you can help me…I get so frustrated when someone says..”maybe you should just go to the “S step daughter, explain that you love her and get her, yourself, and the husband into counseling”. I literally want to laugh out loud. In my opinion people who say that have no idea what dealing with a real socipath is like. It is almost a joke, that is why they drive you crazy. They can outsmart most therapists that I’ve known! Not only do I NOT love her, but I have no desire to work things out with her !!! Quite the contrary…I just want to get away from her, not draw her closer to me..I keep searching for an answer on how to just “stand it”. I have to be around her because she is a family member and I love my husband of 30 years (her bio dad).The physical reaction I have to her is so hard to tolerate. I get shaky, nervous, palpitations, hand wringing, the whole 9 yards by just being in her presence. Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that I am a born again Christian and maybe I am having a true biological reaction to being in the presence of a demon? I don’t have this reaction to any other human being in my circle of family and friends. It happened the very first time I ever laid eyes on her, and it still happens all these years later everytime I have to be around her…have you run across this in your own experiences? I just try so hard to tolerate her and get through the day, but it is such a hard way to live your life. There are a few family members though that feel exactly the same way around her, so it’s not just that I’m a mean step mother or anything.I even see her own father act uncomfortable in her presence. He will not admit it though, but I can see it. She lives 3 miles down the road, and he NEVER goes to visit her or initiate spending any time with her. I’m new to the blog, any advice? Thanks…

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    Monday, 5 April 2010 @ 4:06pm

82. OxDrover says:

    Dear Creampuff, I wish I was some “guru” who “had it all together” LOL some days I feell like I do and if I get too cocky about it all, I fall on my face like everyone else does. I get it more intellectually than I do emotionally, but I am GROWING and that is all that anyhone can do. Two steps forward and one step back, keep on doing the best you can.

    I’m not sure just how you had intuition into that step; daughter even as a baby but I think humans have intuition about things even when there is no “scientific” thing we can hang it on. Sometimes we “hear” this intuition and then we tell it to shut up! And it turns out later we were RIGHT and should have listened.

    I know you are between arock and a hard place because you love your husband and he loves his daughter and does NOT see her for what she is.

    That is a big problem with many families who have these psychopathic members. They will DUPE one member of the family to be their “protector” while they abuse other members of the family.

    I suggest that if at all possible lyou and your husband get into couples counseling. It is obvious to me from what you have posted that yhou are VERY UNHAPPY and you love your husband but the relationship with this step daughter that you cannot apparently at this time AVOID is causing big problems.

    If you love your husband and he loves you, I think there may bne some reasonable solutionh without you either being driven crazy, pushed to the brink, or him having to give up all relationships with his daughter.

    A Christian husband is supposed to “love his wife as himself” and he should not put ANYONE “before” his wife in his affections not even a daughter. My cousin and her husband had this same problem with an adopted child, and they came to a satisfractory relationship where HE continued to be involved with their psychopathic daughter, but my cousin went NC with this daughter 100% and they saved their marriage.

    I suggest that you start by reading a book called “The Gaslight Effect” By Robin Stern P:hD, you can order it off of Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble reasonably for a used copy and it is an easy to read and easy to understand book. It doesn’t talk about personality disorders per se, but it will give you some insight into the relationships between you and your husband and your step daughter and the “Triangle” that is going on.

    I do know that I could not (now) tolerate my husband (if I had a husband) treating me the way your husband is apparently cross ways with you about your step daughter.

    Even years ago I had a DIL that was a real b1atch and she and her husband (my step son) were coming to our house to and I could NOT stand this woman, so I chose to go to visit a friend of mine for the week that they were there at our house.

    I figured it this way, it was my husband’s son, he loved him,, the son was married to a woman that I could not stand, but it was my husband’s house as much as mine and if he wanted to see his son, he had to also see the DIL but I didn’t want to put up with it, so we compromised and it worked out fine. I didn’t apologize to her or my step son that I was gone when they came to visit, but I have no doubt that they got the MESSAGE. That was YEARS ago, and they are still married, and I see her occasionally and I dearly love my step son, but she has been quite pleasant to me since then the times I have seen her.

    Since your step daughter is giving you SO much grief though and you have such an emotional turmoil in your life and it obviously is fairly often (my problem wasn’t too bad as we lived very distantly from them and didn’t see them every holiday etc) I think you DESERVE to be heard about this situation and that your husband should hear you, and make some concession to your STRONG feelings about this woman.

    Even if he sees NO PROBLEM with her behavioir, I think as your husband that he should have some empathy and compassion for YOUR STRONG feelings and not insist that YOU make all the concessions for this woman. Therefore, I think counseling is in order. Plus the book I recommended.

    Good luck with this, and whatever your decision on how to go about this, I think that prayer is called for and counseling as well, but that you do not have to bear the brunt of the “putting up with” allthis in order to do what is right by either your God or your husband. (((hugs)))))

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    Monday, 5 April 2010 @ 5:07pm

83. creampuff says:

    See, I was right, you are a genious!! Thanks so much….I will get the book, but as for counseling, he’ll never go. See, he doesn’t see any problem other than the fact that I just refuse to go with the flow, he thinks I should just not pay any attention to her antics,but that’s because he loves her, and he can’t understand why others don’t. I know life is never going to be perfect, but I have just never felt this awful around any body. She is so smooth and so good at what she does, I can see why her Dad doubts what I say. And that’s when you really start to doubt your own sanity.Her daggers are thrown with the precision of a samuri warrior, they are so smooth and well thought out that her husband and her father never even feel them or see them coming. They are all delivered at the women in her life that she sees as competition for her men. Her mother in law…me, her baby sister. Her husband’s entire family call her “Satan”….but they kiss butt because of the little grandkids. Her poor husband acts like a little beaten down puppy. When she issues a command, he knows he better do her bidding..I just have to share this…. 2 years ago her mother and father in law went to the grandaughters preschool on her birthday as a surprise and took cupcakes and milk for the whole class…Well, when the sociopath found out, she went crazy…”how dare she go to their school without her permission”!!!!!!!! She sent her husband out to their house and gave him orders to literally give them hell !! They were forbidden to even come to the grandchild’s actual birthday party.. This cold war went on for 2 years !! Who in their right mind would have gotten so bitterly mad over that?? The only contact she would have with them was through the husband.After she forbid the mother in law (she didn’t get mad at the father in law) from coming to the party…when people kept asking….where is V—-? She told them all that the mother in law just didn’t show up !!!!! It was like the mother in law was a wet dishrag that she just wrung out….it took 2 years of begging, and crying to even let her see the kids again, then it was totally on her terms. So now they are very reluctant to ever cross her…once the husband was finally going to divorce her, and the next thing we know….they are walking in to the parents in law’s favorite restaurant (where she KNEW they would be on that night)..and just walk up and announce that they are back together and she is pregnant !! She only did that to blow the mother in law away..!! Once she had a jewelry party at her house and when everyone asked her where I was ….she said…”well, I guess she just isn’t coming to my party”…..she NEVER invited me…a cousin of her husband’s found out directly that she was in a hotel room with another man while husband was out of town, and confronted him with direct evidence..(phone pix) and he took up for the sociopath !!! Ran the cousin out of his house..How can you even pity someone who is such a fool??? She job hops every 3 months or so ….always gets fired or mad at some woman…never the men…..when she was in the hospital having her 2nd child,she played us all like a violin…the husband was in Iraq….she spent the whole day refusing to let us in the room with her..forbidding the nurses from telling us anything….we stayed there ALL day not knowing what was going on in the room…she kept “toying” with the Dr. and the staff..after the baby was born…she wouldn’t even let the nurse tell us what time the baby came….when she finally let us in the room……she acted sweet as sugar….like nothing was wrong ?????? Then about midnight we had all been there all day……and we were leaving….and she grabs her Daddy’s arm and starts crying and pleading….”don’t leave me Daddy” I don’t want to be alone…..and of course he starts petting on her.her tears were so incredibly fake…the whole day was surreal….I left him there and found a ride home……she is so good at what she does…..those are just a few examples of what she does……there are too many to cover……Thanks everyone …….I’ve held all this in for 30 years……and since I found this blog, my hands just won’t stop typing!!! God Bless us all that have to endure the things…..

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    Monday, 5 April 2010 @ 7:27pm

84. OxDrover says:

    Dear Creampuff,

    My computer just had the “blue screen of death” and I lost a big long post to you, but thanks for dubbing me a “genius” but believe me I am NO, just starting to get my chit together all in “one sock”

    You do NOT deserve to be treated this way by this woman, and you DO deserve to have your feelings VALIDATED by your husband, but you cannot make either one of them do what they should. You can only change your own way of thinking about how much of this crap you will continue to tolerate.

    The fact that your husband does not see her the way you see her is probably not something you can do anything about but YOU can validate yourself. My egg donor does not validate my own knowledge and feelings about my psychopathic son either, but that does not mean I am wrong, and it doesn’t mean I can prove to her I am RIGHT either.

    It only means that I have a choice what I DO about the situation.

    If your husband refuses to go to counseling with you, GO ANYWAY for yourself. Learn to set some boundaries for both her and for him and for what you will tolerate. It is your life, your house and YOUR choice. YOU have rights and choices too, and only you can decide what they are and what you will enforce in the way of boundaries. Believe me also, if you think she is behaving badly NOW, wait until you set a boundary for her and quit tippy toeing around her, you ain’t seen nothing yet. YOU are the only one though that can decide what you are willing to sacrifice for peace in your life. EACH OF US must make that decision for ourselves.

    I do think that the book I recommended will help you in making those decisions it is straight forward and easy to understand. Keep on reading here as well.! There is some great support here. (((Hugs)))) and God bless. You are on your way to being your own “genius” along with the rest of us here, it is called HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS AND BOUNDARIES and we all fall down sometimes but we keep getting back up and trudging onward!!!

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    Monday, 5 April 2010 @ 10:42pm

85. bluejay says:

    Creampuff,

    I am married (but separated) to a sociopath, knowing from personal experience how DIFFICULT it is to be involved with one of these people. Your step-daughter sounds worse than my husband, but who knows. They certainly know how to inflict pain, that’s for sure. My heart goes out to you and all the other family members who have to deal with her. It seems that your step-daughter’s inlaws realize that there is something “not right” about her, that’s she’s vicious.

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 12:21am

86. geminigirl says:

    WOW WOW WOW!!! Creampuff! talk about lightbulbs going off one after the other! You could be talking about either or both of my spath daughters when you describe your spath step daughter!There are SO MANY parallels with your stories of the horrible stunts she has played on you and your hubby and the Mum in law.My younger spth D,has not allowed me to see any of her 3 kids,{now 14, 11, and nearly 2 yrs,} since they were born. Ive never set eyes on them. Years ago, when the first boy was born, I managed to find the rich, jewish Mum in laws name and address and phone no. I asked her if she was willing to let me come to her home, so that I could get a sneak peek at my new Grandson {now 14.]She said, sadly shed love to but she knew that if she did, and my daughter found out, that would be the END of her being allowed to see him too.!How is it that these biatches have the power to control, bully and boss around everyone?[not me, now, Im out of her sick games!}
    And when my older spath D had her first baby girl, I had to PLEAD with her, via her husband, to be allowed to visit her in hospital to see the baby. When I got there, she GLARED at me like an evil demon! Again, I had to BEG to be allowed to hold the 2 day old baby! What had I done wrong? Nothing! At that time I knew NOTHING about gaslighting.Like you again, I have felt scared, shaky, and uneasy with spath older D since she hit puberty and morphed into a monster.
    {Shes nearly 46 years old now.}The way she glared at me would have curdled milk! what is WRONG with these sick humans, if we can call them human?Thank god, since i set up my boundary,[to which she hasnt responded in almosta year,} I havent spoken to her. Its not easy, I had hopes of seeing my GKids via my SIL, but Ive seen them exactly once in one year. Im discovering hes not reliable and cant be trusted either.If I weakened and rang her on her mobile, I know shed crow, and shed have WON AGAIN, and I WONT do it.
    Its all a sick game of POWER and CONTROL with them. But they are not as clever as they think they are.Her husband got out 4 years a go, and has FT custody of the 3 kids, and they are much better off with him.Reading your posts is so validating for me, now I know I wasnt crazy, this is what they do, and how they are!! If I were you Id have as little to do with the sick biatch as possible!!. Love, and all the best, Gem.XX

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 12:21am

87. creampuff says:

    Oh my, gemini girl……I too am getting some relief just by venting.
    Sometimes I think the only reason they have kids is to use them as pawns in their games. Like you , all these years ago, I didn’t know what the terminology for these people was, I just thought they were crazy, but they are NOT crazy…..just evil. Just as I thought, on Easter SHE came over acting all syrupy sweet when the previous weekend she was at my house when I was not home trying to plant little evil seeds against me to her Dad, my husband. He told me about it, but of course never wants me to confront her, because then she will put him through hell for telling me….so I always feel like my hands are tied…..it’s like when she leaves I feel like I need a bath…..!! I used to pray so hard for her sweet little husband to be able to gather the strength to leave her, but I realized Sunday he never will…he is her little slave and he is so resigned to it, I saw for myself that even praying for him will never work….she’s had him trapped for too long. It’s like Stockholm Syndrome……he is used to her now…it is his life…I even hate the fact that I know her so well now….it almost makes you feel like you are one of them….you have to think like they do and I hate that….sometimes I would just love to confront her and tell her everything I know on her, and that I will tell her Daddy, but I know she would pull something that I will never see coming and then I would just end up looking like an idiot !! She reminds me of a wild animal…..when she is driving the MIL crazy, I try to do something to divert her attention away from the MIL onto myself….it usually works……she literally almost killed the MIL without ever picking up a weapon !! If you all have read Martha Stout’s book….my step daughter is a clone of Doreen in that book !! Her whole persona is just smoke and mirrors….I also believe that the female ones have high testosterone. They are fearless, hard looking (not a soft pretty) and ALWAYS the Alpha Girls…….they are going to be the center of attention, the front of the line, and they will stomp you in the ground to get there……..I am so glad I’m not crazy, that you all “get it”………Thanks everyone !

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 11:35am

88. Rosa says:

    CreamPuff & GeminiGirl:

    I would like to join the two of you, and make this discussion on female psychopaths a tri-fecta.

    My brother’s wife has done all of the things you have mentioned, and has also tried to split my Mom and me off from my brother.
    Heck, she’s even tried to create jealousy and rivalry between my own mother and myself!!!!!
    So far, she has not been able to get the job done, though (thank you Jesus).
    She may have underestimated the tight family bond that exists in my family.
    As imperfect as it is, it’s still a pretty tight bond.
    My theory is that psychopaths are unable to form deep emotional bonds with others…. so, the whole concept is probably foreign to them.

    Since I found LoveFraud last year, my Mom and I have calmed down a lot in dealing with both her and my brother…..now that we know what we are dealing with.
    We choose our battles much more carefully now. The little gaslighting attemps….we just dismiss.
    The only time we rebel is when it comes to my niece.

    From what I’ve seen, psychopaths actually become very cowardly when they see you might actually rise up and challenge them. They don’t want that. That’s why they put so much energy into destabilizing us, and keeping us in a constant state of confusion.

    I think the sister-in-law knows my mother and I are onto her, because she can no longer gaslight us.
    Neither my Mom nor I would dare confront her in our knowledge of what she is doing and our ability to articulate it, because she would hurt my niece….worse than she already is.
    EVERYTHING gets taken out on my niece. My brother is married to a perverse abuser.

    If you are going to confront an abuser, make sure all children are removed from the environment FIRST (and the child should NOT be given back to the abuser afterwards)!!!

    The courts don’t understand that sometimes the parent is the abuser, and the VIOLENCE IS EMOTIONAL, NOT ALWAYS PHYSICAL (although, there’s plenty of physical neglect/abuse, too).
    What is being killed is the child’s SOUL.

    My brother does not see this, because he is still fluctuating from Stage 1 to Stage 3 gaslighting.
    He has moments of clarity.
    But, she is always able to pull him back into the FOG.

    I agree with CreamPuff in that I also believe female psychopaths carry a higher level of testosterone than empath females. There’s a nasty aggression that lies just below the surface….just like a man.
    And, the female psychopaths can really work the “damsel in distress” pity play, and men will fall for it everytime.
    Female psychopaths can also get a lot of mileage out of the “crocodile tears” with their male victims, as well.

    It doesn’t stop with the men, though. My sister-in-law just manipulated the female teachers at her daughter’s school to set up a special reading program for her daughter, under the mask of “concerned attentive Mother.

    I feel just as sorry for men who are manipulated by female psychopaths as I do for women who are manipulated by the men.
    It’s all insidious & ugly.

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 3:12pm

89. FirstThingsFirst says:

    Dr. Leedom said:

    “If you desire to have a relationship with a known sociopath there is something wrong with you. That something can be ignorance of the disorder and its dangerousness. A sense of grandiose invincibility . . . ”

    I’m not sure into what feed I should post this comment, but since it relates to a portion of the article above, I think I’ll post it here.

    I just made it to one year of no contact one week ago. It’s been a good year, and I don’t miss the S/P. But it is Spring time, and I am feeling very frisky, and he would probably take me up on it were I to engage him, but I know that would be like sleeping with a viper. I know the danger, and I self-talk well, but the possibility of engaging with the S/P occurs to me when I have little belief in the actuality of other possibilities. Holding on, is hard; so is waiting. I don’t want to just distract myself from these feelings. I want connection and physical engagement . . . .

    I’ve made it past the throbbing-daily hurt that the S/P engendered. I’ve made it past putting the pieces together. I’ve even made it past the rage. I just don’t care to have someone like that in my life.

    But trying to hold on until I can find someone with whom to share physical intimacy is challenging, and not something I would readily admit to experiencing to many people. Spring time is killing me. For me, good energy that lacks an outlet leads to frustration and depression. I feel myself starting to get depressed because I have no outlet for physical connection . . . and so then I consider the S/P.

    Any thoughts, comments?

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 4:30pm

90. FirstThingsFirst says:

    I forgot to add that the danger for me as it relates to Dr. Leedom’s article is perhaps a sense of invincibility, although not grandiose. I sometimes tell myself, when thinking of engaging the S/P, that yes most likely, he’ll do something to hurt me, but I can survive it. Feeling like I can survive the risk, could endanger me, I think.

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 4:42pm

91. one_step_at_a_time says:

    hi firsthingsfirst – i have heard this many times – inside and outside of my own head. ‘he’ll do something to hurt me, but I can survive it.’

    WE NEED AND DESERVE TO DO MORE THAN SURVIVE.

    we need to transmute that energy – it is creative and conjoining. what can you create/ conjoin with? art?

    i get spring fever intensely. and i have an ex n who came into my life in spring and it took years to not want to go *there* in the spring time.

    okay, this is serious, but i may be seen a crakpot for it (and that’s just fine): i hold trees, and i find it to be an incredibly sensual and sexual experience this time of year.

    too bad the park next to my place is so public.
    but i will go out to the country one day soon, by myself, and be with the rushing spring creek, and the flowing sap and i will feel, for all intents and purposes, that i am with a lover.

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 4:52pm

92. FirstThingsFirst says:

    One_Step,

    Thank you for responding to my post. You seem to really get it, and that heartens me. I don’t think your hugging trees is crackpot. If it works for you . . . if it is creative and conjoining, as you say, for you . . . that’s all that matters.

    I do deserve more than to survive. . . . I just wish I had more of the kind of connection that I desire.

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 5:02pm

93. one_step_at_a_time says:

    firstthingsfirst –

    me too.

    i can’t guarantee i will have that deep wild running sap connection with anyone else ever – so i am banking on the kind of connection i desire being in rejoining with myself (and that coming about through creative acts, grounding acts, kindness to my own pissy mind, and a whack of permission to explore who i really am).

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    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 5:16pm

94. OxDrover says:

    Dear FirstThingsFirst,

    I think every human in the world (possible exception: psychopaths) desire a CONNECTION on a physical and sexual level. This has been proven with observations that children without physical connections with other people literally DIE or fail to thrive and grow.

    That being the case, I think we have to figure out a way to have connections with other humans that are not likely to expose us to abuse from a psychopath.

    Many people here have talked about what “great sex” they had with the psychopath, yet, they later found out that there was no emotional connection from the psychopath at all. It was all fake on the part of the psychopath.

    After my husband’s death, I too craved that physical and romantic connection with a man, and because I was “needy” I hooked up with a psychopath and fell for his “charm”—only to be very badly hurt. I’m still by myself, but I meet my needs for human connections in other ways without resorting to any contact with a psychopath. It just isn’t “worth it” to be in the same room with a psychopath, ultimately the “connections” are so onesided and painful.

    BTW congratulations on one year of NC!!! That’s great!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 5:21pm

95. ChristyK says:

    In March of 2005, during the myriad of little earthquakes that signaled the end to our relationship of six years, I went through a bad breakup with the SP telling me that he didn’t feel anything for me any more and that there was a girl at his office that he would be with if she would have him. He didn’t expect me to stand up, grab everything that I could that was in his place where I had been staying, loaded my car to the brim, bargained to keep the cat we shared by giving him my gaming account, and left sobbing, but determined.
    For the first time in our almost 6 year relationship, I didn’t call, didn’t email, and considered our relationship over.

    I wasn’t at the end. I went back into the lion’s den where he told me he was a changed man. He was going to throw away the porn, spend time with me and my interests, stop being so aggressive in the way that he treated me(not physical), and control his angry outbursts, always the product of things not swinging his way.

    I wouldn’t have sex with him, wouldn’t even kiss him until he proved himself. He tried for about a week. After that,he started showing anger that I wasn’t immediately giving in and coming back to stay with him. My behavior was “misguided” according to him. Now I recognize he was just trying to get me away from my family and my own better judgment back into his den. I had sex with him once. It was okay, but I now recognized the lack of emotion there. It didn’t feel right. It felt empty and cold, just like him.

    When my uncle died a few weeks later, I had a realization of how short life is, and how I didn’t want to spend it being manipulated every day, feeling empty. I drove home from Nashville where my uncle was, dropped my sister off at her home 20 miles outside Chicago, went to my grad class in the city, and then drove another 20 miles out to the suburbs and broke it off with him. He had felt me pulling away. He cried. Bawled his eyes out. This is what took away my ability to recognize what he was. Sociopaths don’t have any emotions, right? Wrong. Their emotions are all for THEMSELVES. If they are about to lose their prize, they will NOT be happy. That day took me from 6 in the morning until 11 at night to be finished, but it is one of the most memorable and satisfying days of my life. I will never forget it.
    The SP came after me with phone calls, texts, cards, and gifts. He gave me all the things I had always begged for during the relationship, and he had withheld. He wrote me long letters reminding me of how good we were together. Oddly enough, now that I think back, all the good things were good things I MADE. He just went along for the ride.
    I was an avid online gamer at that point, one of the things that had brought us together. I had bought a new game to replace the one I traded him for my wonderful, but feisty cat. I felt really, really guilty for making him feel bad, so I would occasionally entertain conversations with him on the game. (Back into the lion’s den, the lion was really restless and unhappy, so why not give his ears a little scratch, right?)

    I had a phone relationship with a really nice guy who distracted me from the SP. The SP hacked my email and found out. He confronted me. He blamed the breakup on this guy. When things didn’t work out with my distraction, my addicted self gave the SP a call. I met with him for coffee and saw him face to face for the first time in months. He simpered, eager, charming, false humility oozing out of every pore. I felt like throwing up the whole time we met.

    Once again, it wasn’t right. This encounter made me feel really guilty for hurting him. His ego was what was really hurting. He tried to kiss me, and I just felt revolted. I told him it wasn’t going to work out.

    I felt so bad that a couple of weeks later, I posted on my blog. I knew that he read it. I said that I cared about him, but that the real reason I could never be with him was that he wasn’t a Christian. Which was true … just not the whole truth. I had started my journey back to my faith which he had always made fun of.

    He called me and told me that he was ready to pursue learning about Christianity. Now I felt like I owed him something. He met with one of my best friend’s husband all through Dec. I would talk to him on the phone occasionally when he called. Ask him about what he was learning. I felt obligated and wondered what I was going to do if he did accept the Lord into his life.

    On New Year’s Eve, I received a call from him telling me that morning he had received Christ as his Savior during a church service he had attended with many of my friends. My sister and her husband were both in church that day and she tells me that she thought it was genuine at the time.

    I talked with my wonderful father about this and he told me that he was praying for me, looked me straight in the eyes, and told me that I knew what I needed to do.

    I broke up with the SP a week before my birthday. Met my wonderful, flawed, and loving husband six months later. I am still scarred from all my experiences (for another time) in that six year relationship.

    Things had been congenial for a few years now with the SP. We could go to shared parties, even with some additional weird stories to go along with his current GF.

    A few months ago, his current GF messaged me telling me that she would never have been with him if she knew what he was like. Apparently, he had kept a video that I made with him when I was young and naive at the beginning of our relationship. He had lied to me at the time and told me that he destroyed it. She found it, and in addition to all the unscrupulous, illegal, and financially irresponsible things he had done, this item was the topper, and on a zip drive (bought after we broke up so he had to actually transfer it knowingly) next to their desk. She had the same problems with him of porn, selfish and dangerous activities, etc. She is a piece of work herself, but I wanted to help her if something was really going on.

    In his email to her (and me) he said, “I hope you don’t think that I was watching this all the time.” Eeeeewwwwwwww! At first he tried to convince me that something was wrong with her. Then apparently, as she and I emailed back about what we had both experienced, she sent him my correspondence. He had never expected that polite and private little me would share those things. An SP can get very, very angry when fully revealed. He sent me a nasty email that fully revealed his true colors, and she sent me one as well that showed me she had no compassion for people who made mistakes in being with an SP other than herself.
    I sent him a message back telling him that he could lie to her because I was done being manipulated. May as well have given a hungry lion a peppermint stick.
    I blocked the two of them on facebook, myspace, my emails. Apparently he hacked into my emails because I received an email two weeks later from him. He was telling me about how his life had changed. He is seeing a counselor (we all know how well SPs do with that). He is back with his GF, he sees how his gaming addiction was the problem (hmmmmmmmm, not sure how that figured into all the other much more detrimental problems). There was no apology. He was trying to convince me that his life was good. My opinion matters because he sees me as someone who his family and friends value. If I see him as a monster, he is a monster. He can’t manipulate me any more into seeing him as what he wants me to see. I’m sure that bothers him to no end.

    I changed the password on my email account, changed my phone number, and prayed that I will eventually get a job, and a home somewhere far away from his prying eyes.

    Whew! I know that was long, but this is the only place where I feel that I might be truly understood.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 6:17pm

96. ErinBrock says:

    ChristyK:
    Welcome to LF…..glad you found us!

    I just had a thought……ANY CHANCE the S could have installed a keystroke logger on your computer?

    Yes, darlen….you unfortunately ARE understood here…..
    Keep reading and learning and moving on down the healing path…..
    It’s a long one, and unfortunatley they just don’t all drive off cliffs and leave us alone!
    

    But…..I do believe….everything happens for a reason….and it’s up to US to find that reason……
    Education is key……

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 3:58am

97. OxDrover says:

    Dear ChristyK,

    I second ErinB’s welcome to LF…and congratuations on figuring out what this creeep is. Education and Knowledge=Power and we can take back our power from these creeps to hurt us!

    Keep on reading here and there are always people here to support you and belive you! God bless.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 8:37am

98. ChristyK says:

    Dear Erin and Ox:

    Thanks for your replies. I’ve been reading Lovefraud since November when the latest incident happened. One thing that I’ve found no one but my counselor (who is too expensive for me to see right now) and my husband understand is how long this takes to get over. I had pushed my memories of what took place during the relationship away when I broke things off so that I could “forgive” him. I felt very free at the time, but never addressed what had happened. Three years later, it all came back with a rush. I’ll be in the shower – have a flash. I’ll be having a disagreement with my husband – have a flash.

    At least now I can forgive, remembering. I still struggle with my conflicting beliefs that God can save anyone, and the fact that I don’t believe a true Spath will ever be saved other than by some chemical miracle. My mom and I talk about this all the time.

    The reason I believe this happened? I think maybe I am meant to be a quiet (or not so quiet) activist. As an elementary school teacher, I have already seen one intermediate level student with anti-social qualities that are driving straight in the direction of spath. I am researching, trying to determine if there is anything I can do for these children, but also wondering if I can have an effect on educating little girls and boys that aren’t to be aware and watchful for this.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 8:53am

99. OxDrover says:

    Dear ChristyK,

    NO Contact is the best with these creatures as helping you heal. Even just seeing them can trigger a “flash back” or bad emotions.

    I think your goal of educating young kids about psychopaths is a good one and it is one that needs doing for sure. It can be worked into just about any kind of “class” or “education” by a creative teacher (which I am sure you are) as a lesson in morals and ethics…or teaching children how that sometimes people who are out to “con” you are VERY nice to you at the beginning and once they Get you to trust them, BINGO they con you….

    YOu never know, a lesson learned at gradeschool level may save someone decades later.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 9:01am

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