198 Comments to “BOOK REVIEW: How to Spot a Dangerous Man”

1. gr8ful70x7 says:

   Man, it bothers me that we as a society has regressed to the point such publications are necessary. Yet, as a male I feel the need to avail myself of such resources anyway. In my life I know that by living outside of the will of God and be doing that which my Lord does not condone, I open myself up for another lesson or set of lessons to learn!

   Would I stay on the path, I’d not have to suffer such consequences for my poor choices. Nonetheless, the universe does offer correction and it appears perpetual.

   While I don’t mind learning and growing, it seems in some ways I am retarded. However, when one considers the context, the society in which we live, it’s a wonder that more evil doesn’t occur.

   The only thing that bothers me about this review is that the work appears to be rather sexist. I guess this is one to add to the feminist psychology literature. But that stuff doesn’t help women & men to relate, to unite, to form strong bonds and healthy relationships. My concern is that this book might add to the schism(s) between women & men and make it even harder for a woman to trust and to have a positive fulfilling relationship with a man.

   Somehow, we’ve got to get back to the team work that prevailed between wife & husband BEFORE the early 20th century, before all the lies were spread that women were oppressed and men always oppressed women. There was more equality on the early American farm homestead than at any time since its demise in the last part of the 19th century when the Industrial Revolution kicked in and kicked families apart.

   (Report abusive comment)

   Wednesday, 14 November 2007 @ 1:02pm

2. blakewhite says:

   to gr8ful70×7
   your comment is interesting. I am stuck with a possible sociopath. and i have struggled with the very same conflicts that you mention. it is perhaps the reason i am stuck. i start thinking about what people had to do during the Great depression to help others have a roof over their head. what amount of tolerance did people have. tolerance of being harmed by the person they were trying to help have shelter. putting up with it because one probably felt too guilty kicking someone out onto the streets where there were so many other already homeless people. the economy is bad right now. i can’t get myself to make ANOTHER person homeless. it reminds me of the whole thing where the women’s lib movement led women to do soul searching and find the perfect career, spending lots of time doing self help stuff, etc. when men have had to work, especially in hard times, they did not have the luxury of soul searching. it was find work or starve. sometimes i think too that people resort to bad behavior just to survive. lying about qualifications to get work so that the heat can stay on. also, how much of the behavior is actually do to satanic forces. I didn’t believe that stuff before…but i do now. the bad economy right now and health problems of me and those around me are really puting all this into a different perspective for me personally. And you have verbalized some thoughts i’ve been unable to verbalize. thank you

   (Report abusive comment)

   Wednesday, 14 November 2007 @ 9:38pm

3. Fighter says:

   I would also recommend reading up on Abandon-oholics… if you are one This web site says something VERY VERY significant to the admonition to ‘listen to your gut.’

   How about following your gut?

   If you’re an abandoholic, following your gut is probably what got you into these patterns in the first place. Your gut gets you to pursue someone who makes your heart go pitter pat, not because he’s the right one, but because he arouses fear of abandonment. And your gut gets you to avoid someone who is truly trustworthy, because he doesn’t press the right insecurity buttons.

   Enrich your mind. Follow your wisdom. But until you overcome your abandonment compulsion, don’t follow your gut – it will only get you into trouble – because your gut tells you that unavailable people are attractive.

   If you are a vulnerable person, your gut is flawed in the first place. That’s why websites like LoveFraud are so INVALUABLE!

   (Report abusive comment)

   Wednesday, 21 November 2007 @ 6:51pm

4. akitameg says:

   Has anyone else experienced their sociopath conning a therapist or doctor/psychologist to try and keep them in relationship– as part of their deceit? i do not know if I can get over this part. If he could con a 60 year old psychiatrist– imagine how easy it was to con me? And then when he was “done” with me– the sweet girl working in a nursing home– he played “vicim” to me by crying and going to the therapist and telling him how mean I was and that he just could not take it any longer!!!

   (Report abusive comment)

   Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 4:14pm

5. akitameg says:

   Dear Fighter–
   Amazing– what I just read from your post.
   I am adopted and this man knew of my traumatic past/severe abandonments. Unfortunately he used them to help keep me in his web.

   will I ever get over being attracted to the unavailable?

   (Report abusive comment)

   Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 4:18pm

6. Indigoblue says:

   MIRRIOR effect The Con ! and THE HOOK! They are all so much alike and all (our) stories are all the same just different game pieces ! LOVE jere

   (Report abusive comment)

   Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 4:22pm

7. Indigoblue says:

   the opposite of LOVE is use not hate !

   (Report abusive comment)

   Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 4:24pm

8. letting-go says:

   OH MY I was adopted as well and my ex used that against me too. Said no one wanted me because of the way I am…and what not. All because I didnt wnat to take his crap anymore. I just thought that was cruel and uncalled for. I now know both my biological and ofcourse adopted parents and both sets are wonderful people. Theses s/p can just be so mean with things they say…so why do we want to still be there in it? I once told him to not even come to my house…he leaves in another state and his reply was I wouldnt come to that lame place ever again…but still wants to get married and be a family..???? um am I missing something????

   (Report abusive comment)

   Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 4:29pm

9. Elizabeth Conley says:

   “Has anyone else experienced their sociopath conning a therapist or doctor/psychologist… ”

   Oh yeah. Classic ploy. Narcissists and Sociopaths are both absolutely in their element when they’re swimming in drama. Sometimes the first clue that you have a problem with them is when people come up to you and ask how you could possibly be so cruel to them. They will actually start generating public sympathy against you BEFORE they sucker punch you!

   Consider this: If they can fool you, why would you be surprised that they can fool mental health professionals, pastors, judges, police officers…yada, yada, yah.

   By the time you consider trying to get help to deal with the problems the Sociopath or Narcissist has created, you may already have lost your reputation to their pretensions of victimization.

   If I were you, I’d look at this phenomenon in a positive light. The sociopath/narcissist has fooled some pretty smart people, so you’re in good company. Sociopaths/Narcissists don’t bother to fool people they see as no challenge or having nothing to offer. It’s a kind of compliment that your Sociopath bothered with you, possibly the only sincere compliment he’ll ever offer.

   (Report abusive comment)

   Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 4:57pm

10. Elizabeth Conley says:

    “Every woman, Brown says, has an internal system of red flags and red alerts that act as a warning system that someone is dangerous. Unfortunately, many of us ignore the signals. ”

    With me it was simply a good old fashioned Methodist background. We’re supposed to police our own behavior and question our own motives, constantly trying to be better Christians. We’re not supposed to scrutinize others. We’re supposed to accept them as they are and try to help them any way we can.

    Now I try to remember to ask myself what I think of the people I encounter. It takes a conscious effort. From time to time I realize I’m acting like a doormat again, and I give myself a swift kick in the pants! People don’t have to be Sociopaths to whipe their feet on a doormat. It’s normal behavior. “Don’t be a doormat!” I remind myself several times a month.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 5:06pm

11. Wini says:

    Elizabeth Conley: Did anyone mention that “they” are spineless cowards and ooze with slime.

    You know, if we built an ark today … to wash the sins and sinners off the face of the earth again … the likes of ‘them” certainly wouldn’t have a place in the ark … but then again, God promised he wouldn’t do this again … oh, well, we are a few centuries too late (LOL) .

    Enough said.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 6:56pm

12. OxDrover says:

    WOW, so great comments from folks we haven’t heard from before! I wish everyone who reads here would post more!

    Brown’s book is quite good, because unfortunately, society does teach women (and some men) that there “is good in everyone” (NOT true) and that our society teaches that “if you’ve had a bad break you just need someone to love you enough” (NOT true) and women are also ‘judged” by what their “attachment’ status in the society is, and unattached women are ‘not ok.’

    As far as ‘making someone homeless” and feeling guilty about it, that is another thing, it is not YOU who are making them homeless, but THEIR BEHAVIOR, you are not required to take in every person who would mooch off of you or feel guilty. (I can relate to that one)

    I recently had to ask some “friends’ to leave who by their poor decisions had come to live in their recreation vehicle (a motor home) and don’t have enough income to rent a space, so I let them live here on my farm (them paying their own electric bill) and they became ‘entitled” to walk all over me, not respect my boundaries, not behave with common courtesy and clean up after themselves, but to leave messes for me to clean up without any apology. To allow their dogs (which were dangerous to the life of my dog) to roam at will and potentially kill my small dog.

    After confronting them on these boundary crossings, when there was no improvement in their behavior, I asked them to leave. I felt really “guilty” about doing this (I was still working hard on learning to set and maintain reasonable boundaries) but it WAS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE THEM A PLACE TO LIVE and ALLOW THEM TO ABUSE ME IN THE PROCESS. Now, I realize that it is not my responsibility to provide for anyone other than myself. I don’t have to feel guilty if I don’t let my friends and family abuse my hospitality. If these people TRULY care about me, they will NOT ABUSE ME. Therefore, since these people were abusing me, they obviously didn’t care enough about me to NOT ABUSE me. So, what have I lost? A friend? I don’t think they were much in the way of friends if they were abusing me, so I really haven’t lost anything except a continual pain in the neck and an irritation.

    Like Elizabeth said “I”m no one’s door mat” and I am not required to be anyone’s door mat.

    Like, you, Elizabeth, I like to help others, and I don’t mind helping anyone at all, but to have people accept my help, and decide that they are ENTITLED to have me assume their responsibilities for providing housing and a lively hood for themselves, is not “helping” it is ENABLING, and I am not going to enable others by taking over responsibility for them. I do police my motives, and I do try to be a better Christian, but even Christ didn’t encourage us to be door mats.

    As far as “scrutinizing” others, Jesus advised us to “by it’s fruits ye shall know”—if a tree’s fruit is bad, the tree is bad (i.e. if the behavior pattern of a person is bad, the person is bad” ) That is not judging, but OBSERVING.

    If a person is a chronic liar, abuser, user, thief, etc. then we are advised to get away from them, don’t associate with them, “don’t even eat with them.” GOOD ADVICE!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 7:23pm

13. brenda1213 says:

    my x socio had the local police convinced that i was the crazy one, he would go on his rampages (as me and my family call it. ) finally i got an order of protection so he cannot menace me or itimadate over phone, email, or in person. The judge dropped it on my kids(he can pickup at curbside)he convinces the judge he should be in there lives and is working on geting a job and a place where the kids can visit. and the judge gave it to him. so he convinced a judge he should still see his kids and the local cops that i get PMS really bad.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 November 2008 @ 10:55pm

14. Wini says:

    Dear Brenda1213: Remember, courts need to stay neutral, having both parties interest at heart … that does not prevent professionals from children and youth services in your area to be overseeing the interests of all parties involved, you, your Ex, and the children.

    I hope you remember to make the call to those professionals to help in your situation.

    Peace to your heart and soul as you heal.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 5:09am

15. Wini says:

    Oh, and Brenda1213: Remember too, police are not judge nor jury, nor attorneys … they are to intercede in between … not to make judgments … but to do their jobs without taking sides. What you perceived at the time that they were taking sides, could have been that they were showing both you and your EX respect … not getting involved … just doing their jobs.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 5:12am

16. brenda1213 says:

    to wini, thankyou for your input it makes sense, i still feel like his victim sometimes. i am seeking therapy for me and my kids, and my daughter has a social worker from MHA(mental health assoc.) i am healing, i just worry so much about my kids and him having a relationship with them, cause i know how dangerous he can be. peace to you

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 7:41am

17. Wini says:

    brenda1213: I know how you feel … when our backs are up against the wall and we want to scream to the hill tops for everyone to naturally understand our concerns at that particular point in time … we loose site that others are there to intercede and protect all parties involved.

    Remember, TRUTH floats to the top, no matter how many lies are piled on top of it … it does eventually surface and becomes victorious… you just need to be patient … it’s not instantaneous, even though we want so desperately for truth to surface.

    Peace to you and your children as everyone heals.

    I hope this is can be of some consolation to you … there is a reason for every thing to happen at the time it is happening … but it is on God’s time frame, not ours.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 8:26am

18. Jen2008 says:

    “Has anyone else experienced their sociopath conning a therapist or doctor/psychologist… ”

    When we first met, my x P was all full of praise for therapist, in the sense of saying he thought communication was the key to relationships and that people ran away from problems too much (in reference to his former wives), and in his next relationship he had decided if any problems arose, he would be willing to do whatever it took to work thru the problems, even willing to go for couple counseling blah blah. HAHAHAHAHA!

    In reality, this man hated therapists and the very idea of one. Late in the relationship, when I started seeing a therapist he was furious. Fortunately, when I said I had gone to see a therapist, I did NOT say the therapist name and there were quite a few in the area. He ranted about me seeing a therapist (how stupid it was and how I must be crazy if I was seeing a therapist). He also made the comment that when he went on his “serial killer spree” that the therapist I was seeing was gonna be tops on his list of people he wanted to knock off. I only saw that therapist six times, but I never did tell him the therapist name in spite of his badgering. Probably just an idle threat to try to get me to stop going, but by that time I realized he was dangerous and I wasn’t about to tell him who I saw.

    But when he was court mandated to go to drug/alcohol class (conducted by a therapist) after his 30 day jail sentence due to another DUI, he was a model d/a participant. I know this because the therapist allowed family to come and he often wanted me to go with him. To listen to him in discussions you would have really believed he saw the error of his ways and was really focused and determined to clean up his life. He actually had me convinced that he was “working” towards giving up the booze (and drugs) permanently. That is, until he started bragging later (in front of me) to people about how he beat the random drug test because he STOLE a test (out of the therapist box of drug tests that the therapist left on a table in the lobby) so he could later use that stick to give to the therapist instead of the one he actually peed on during the random drug test. The therapist would accompany them to the bathroom, watch them pee, then send them out in the lobby to sit with their test until the colors on the stick processed. He was still drinking and doing cocaine the whole time.

    He also stole sticks from the “clean” people out of the trashcan (the trash can was sitting outside the bathroom door and people woud throw their sticks in it.) Of course he wasn’t the only one stealing clean sticks out of the trash and tossing their dirty sticks in. I saw several people do it over time.

    BTW, I also heard alot of discussions (immediately after each class) from some of these men and women, who were comparing notes on where to go to score drugs after class. And one night, one woman bent over to tie her shoes and her crack pipe fell out of her jacket pocket!!!!

    Although I am sure some people in the class really wanted to beat their d/a problem, from the conversations I heard during break and after class, it seemed most of them (although certainly not all of them were sociopaths) were “conning” the therapist in the sense of telling him what they needed to say to make it thru the class, only attending because it was court ordered, and they seemed not in the least interested in giving up drugs.

    I tend to think people who seek out a therapist would have a vested interst in being honest with the therapist, but someone who is court ordered into therapy or who has a spouse or family member pushing them into therapy, may tend to con or lie to the therapist, whether they are a sociopath or not, simply because they aren’t really interested in being there and getting help to begin with.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 8:49am

19. Jen2008 says:

    BTW, I do not do drugs at all and was quite naive about them and drug users habits. I attended roughly 3/4’s of those classes and I will say it was one of the most educational/informative things I have ever done. It also gave me some great tools in being better able to spot a dug user that I may be associated with. If you ever get a chance to attend a drug program, I highly recommend you GO!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 9:06am

20. akitameg says:

    Dear Elizabeth andJen2008–
    Thank you for your responses. They are my first. There sure seem to be a lot of smart and compassionate people here.
    So–anyone—HOW DO I RELEASE/LET GO/STOP OBSESSING over how I wish I could write or email or call or let that psychologist (By the way– yes– he was there b/c his mommie was paying for it– at the age of 39!) and convince him of WHAT he is working with– that he is part of this guy’s narcissistic supply?? Then again–I would now look bad b/c of the drama this guy has created to distract the truth being seen (His own deceit and evil.)
    pure evil. That’s all I can say. But how do I let go of the above?? Or do I write a letter? Advice!
    Wini– thank you for the comment on truth!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 10:12pm

21. Indigoblue says:

    akitameg

    OxD wrote sept 9 tue in archives

    Forgive yourself for being Human

    Also Aftermath:Surviving Psycopathy Google this good stuf Love jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 10:18pm

22. OxDrover says:

    Dear Akitameg,

    It takes a while to get over that “need” to contact them and “tell them off” or to “get closure”–the only way that is successful is to NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND. No phone calls, no letters, no texts, no voice mails. Don’t listen to them, don’t read them, no contact at all. Don’t even talk to someone (other than here) about them, don’t let anyone tell you about how they are doing or deliver messages for them to you.

    Thisis important to let your mind free up from the FOG they have had you in. It WORKS, but it does take time.

    Come here and read and read and learn about them, the articles here are very informative and interesting and will give you insight into how they have twisted your mind and spirit. THE FUTRE IS BETTER, it will be better, but it is WORK and hard work at that, but you will find that it is worth it. COMPLETELY worth it! I speak from experience on that, and I have cried buckets of tears, screamed thousands of “bad words” pounded my head into the pillow, the floor and the wall. But now I am FREE and I am happy, and I have a life again! Life is GOOD! God bless. Hang in there.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 November 2008 @ 11:35pm

23. akitameg says:

    Thank your Jere and OcDrover!

    ARe we allowed to talk about sex with the psychopath (Sounds like a book in itself.)?
    I do not want to break any boundaries. Nothing graphic.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 6 November 2008 @ 7:17pm

24. OxDrover says:

    Dear akitameg,

    This blog talks about just about everything, and as long as it is not “prono” then I don’t think there would be a problem, but if you have a question, you can e mail Donna Anderson, the owner of this site and ask her, or e mail her the thing you want to post and ask her if it is okay with her. She is a pretty cool gal, and no topic has been labeled “off limits” except flaming another member or “preaching” religion or philosophy to someone else. This is one of the nicest, most friendly sites that I have ever been on.

    We have some pretty diverse opinons here but everyone seems to respect every other poster’s position. Glad you are here, this is a healing and safe place. Welcome.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 6 November 2008 @ 8:39pm

25. akitameg says:

    Is gr8tful 70×7 still around?
    just read an old post of his and would really, really like to contact him.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 6 November 2008 @ 10:09pm

26. Indigoblue says:

    Here Here Why can’t we say People instead of male or female ????

    Bloogert1765?

    it’s us Human beings it’s not male or female

    Sexual exploitation has always been here ! For a male to be taken advantage of by a female is Old school boy redneck backwoods RIGHT OF PASSAGE! And most of the time the male is plum happy to be taken advantage of !

    But the laws have changed this because they could’nt be seen to keep looking the other way and there is $$$$$$ involved !

    I don’t condone any of it but ! The right of passage to man hood In american Indians is 10 ! when will america wake up from purtain ideals ?

    Drinking laws 21 to give your LIFE 18 ?????????????

    Dont ask dont tell??????? Don’t get caught! LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 1:00am

27. akitameg says:

    I am a new victim and the biggest problem I am facing believe it or not is
    > that–
    > Here I was– in love with this man. My sex life with him- for two years
    > was wonderful. Euphoric actually.
    > Six weeks ago–I find out he is a sociopath and needless to say– I would
    > never contact him again– much less be intimate.
    >
    > So– why is it literally depressing me and causing me EXTREME hurt and
    > anxiety to think of this person– or the person he pretended to me– being
    > intimate with someone else????
    > This makes me sick. I thought he was “forever” and he continuously said
    > that he was–
    > especially during love making.
    > We also had fabulous chemistry– I am 39– trust me– I will not find this
    > again.
    >
    > Has anyone else experienced this? Here I am– thinking of how he will be
    > with– and most likely is already with another woman and I feel sick and
    > jealous???? What?
    > Wait a minute! This man has no conscience. had NO empathy for me. Lied
    > to everyone and created smear campaigns about ME– Made me out to be a nut
    > with his family, friends and therapist so that when he was “done” (His mom
    > died and he is going to inherit)– that he could blame me. The sweet girl
    > who is a therapist with Alzheimer’s’ residents everyday!!!
    >
    > I hope to God that what someone wrote yesterday (Fighter?) about being
    > attracted to abandoners is true. Maybe my subconscious knew what he was?
    >
    > Then again– if I had followed God– I never would have had sx with him.
    > And this never would have happened.
    >
    > Ughh.
    >
    > Feeling very, very scared, alone and hopeless that I will never get over
    > this sx part.
    >
    > I am lusting over a Ted Bundy type.
    > This is really sick.What is wrong with me?
    > And yet– I feel one reason it was so good- was that he had sooo deceived
    > me into believing he was “forever. I trusted him. The words, the tears,
    > the stories of persecution.
    > And he was gorgeous. Physically that is.
    > thanks
    >

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:52am

28. Stargazer says:

    A strange thing just happened to me. I went on Amazon.com to buy an exercise dvd. You won’t believe what the first sale item was that popped up on the home page!!!??? It was the book “How to Spot a Dangerous Man.” Needless to say, I took it as a sign and bought it. It was only about $7.50.

    akitameg. There is nothing wrong with you. You were duped and deceived. You are in love with the image he wanted you to be in love with, but that person doesn’t exist. It is like being emotionally raped. I’m so sorry you have to go through this (we have all been there). It is a major trauma, and it will take time to heal. The sociopath I dated for only 2-1/2 months fell in love with me and I with him in a short time (or so I thought). He also professed undying love for me. Until I found out he was married and trying to defraud the military out of a fake medical discharge. The way the story unfolded was unbelievable and the lies that came out in the end were incredible. He seemed like the real thing. I am a pretty smart cookie, and he certainly fooled me and my friends too. The sex was also great with him, though the relationship was brief. And sex is very bonding. It will take you some time to get over this. Stick around here. You will find some very compassionate listeners who understand what you are going through.

    Before I met this guy, I never knew such people existed. What a wake-up call.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 11:20am

29. akitameg says:

    thank you Stargazer.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 11:43am

30. akitameg says:

    I am experiencing huuuuge depression. was discarded by my S 6 weeks ago. He had even conned a shrink who kept telling ME I WAS in the wrong when I doubted this man’s comittment.

    I have left my job and the state in which I resided for 10 years. Have no money..No insurance. Staying with friend in one room apt in a major city.
    Need job- how can I even function?
    Losing my mind. Have no kids.
    Any advice?
    What if I do not survive this pure/raw evil?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 12:07pm

31. Beverly says:

    Dear akitameg. At 39, time is on your side, but I really feel that if you are feeling depressed, that you should treat yourself in the most delicate fashion and enlist all the loving and practical support you can get. Coming out of this type of relationship is like coming out of a disaster zone and has a deep impact on the physical and the psyche. During this phase, I treated myself ever so gently.

    Those with PDisorders are very accomplished at creating the ‘fizz’ in relationships, but lets face it, if they are liars and cheats, then it doesnt matter how attractive they are, your wellbeing will be always at risk. Also I kept telling my ex to stop putting me on a pedestal, they raise you up and then drop you from a great height – crunch. I will never again fall prey to that kind of a relationship, yet this kind of relationship is ’sold’ to us through songs, stories and films. The other part of the physical side, is that we mix our energies with our partner and hence the deep connection. You will survive and you will heal. I am convinced I developed cancer through the stress and I survived that.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 1:34pm

32. akitameg says:

    Hey everyone–
    You now what my brain is obsesses with and it makes NO SENSE? Here this guys was undoubtedly a P. My brain/mind keeps getting jealous with thoughts of him like– meeting a new girl (which I know he already has) and living happily ever after. I feel he will all of a sudden be the perfect man I thought he was, not be a P anymore and make someone a wonderful husband.
    I should have known. His exwife was this gorgeous woman from Japan. Great cook. Made great money. Sweet. he cried “victim” to her “abuse”.
    Damn–he did to me what he did to her. The whole fam did.
    Does anyone know what I mean by thinking they are going to meet a perfect partner and live happily ever after?
    I think this shows that the almost unconscious undermining he did of me– really got to my psyche.
    I also have obsessive thoughts about him going back/conning his exwife. God I hope she has learned that he is an N.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 4:07pm

33. Beverly says:

    Dear Akitameg, I know exactly what you say. In the early days of the breakup, I had to resist the temptation to drive past his place and when I drove past recently and I saw he had new bedroom curtains, a part of me felt jealous. And I had thoughts that he is just fast tracking through different partners until he finds the right one. But hey, when I pull my thinking together, and keep reminding myself of the way he treated me, when I was so good to him, I cant imagine that he will ever have a successful relationship with anyone – not the kind of successful relationship I would like. He will just find someone else to put up with his behaviours and believe me, he will not be able to stop his behaviours showing up. I gave him every chance and was always questionning myself, perhaps I should have been more accepting, perhaps perhaps?? But where am I in the scenario. And I ask you the same question – where are you in the equasion??

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:05pm

34. Iwonder says:

    Hi Akitameg,

    It’s been awhile since i’ve posted. I’m 6 months post-sociopath. I was with my ex 2 years also. I gave him money, a free roof over his head for him and his son, bought him clothes, paid his bills, took out a car loan for his car and put his name on the deed to my home. Only to find out there was another woman in the picture the entire time and he was telling her he was going to leave me for her. He wasn’t really. He was using both of us for money and he’d go over her house after causing fights with me. He was manipulative, jealous, conrolling, dominating, verbally and physically abusive. He got me fired from a great job.

    I find myself crying less. Around 10 days ago, I dropped off his stuff he was keeping in the garage to him at his GF’s. Then ex mailed me the keys back to my garage last week. I find myself crying less but still depressed but it’s more like anger instead of hurt. I’m angry at myself for being taken for a fool. I could have lost my condo and the car I got him so things could be worse but I’m flat broke. Don’t be jealous. She’s gonna get hers..just like we got ours. All I have to do is think about the way he used me, cheated on me, lied, and abused me and I never want to have that happen to me again. It’s frightening sometimes thinking about how it happened. It was so well planned-out and methodical. An evil plot to take me down and use me up and then go onto the next to do the same. Truly sickening.

    It’s so hard to focus on my job during the day and hard to focus on everyday tasks like paying bills, shopping, etc. It’s like I’m in shock and on auto-pilot until the shock wears off.

    What sucks is that I became very attached to his 15 year old daughter. She got pregnant so the ex turned his back on her. It’s like he’s punishing her for making a big mistake in her life. I emailed her today and she was happy to hear from me. She said she misses her dad and cries herself to sleep in the night. He won’t look at her or have anything to do with her. I just let her know there’s nothing she can do but pray and maybe send him a letter telling him how she feels. He discarded his own daughter who needs him the most right now. But this story isn’t new. He has 5 other kids out there he discarded and never knew. Just awful. An awful person. Twisted.

    Does anyone believe that perhaps sociopaths are being influenced by the devil or possessed by demons? I know it sounds far-fetched but there are stories in the Bible where Jesus cast-out demons of mentally ill people.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:35pm

35. Iwonder says:

    Ewwwww!! When I think that my ex would go to the OW’s house for s-e-x and then come home to me for some more, I wanna barf.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:38pm

36. Iwonder says:

    OMG. I just thought of something funny though. 2 months after i kicked him out he called and wanted me to pick him up (remember, i took the car back,) maybe he didn’t really want to wind up living there but she was good to have on the side. Now he’s stuck there (i didn’t pick him up of course.) How funny is that? He made his bed with her now has to “lie” in it everynight! LOL! LOL!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:41pm

37. Stargazer says:

    What up, wonderwoman? I was wondering where you went!!! (I’ll bet that’s the most w’s ever used in a sentence).
    I’m glad to see you in good spirits.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:54pm

38. Iwonder says:

    Hey Superstar! You are my super hero because like me, you didn’t lie down and roll over when you were taken for a ride. I got the filed copy of the deed to my condo from my lawyer today. I’m just trying to pull myself together. It’s a slow-go cause I was with him 2 years.

    What still haunts me are two scense I play back over and over again in my head. The first was last year a few days before Christmas. He started a fight with me and grabbed me by the throat, spit in my face and called me a ho. I’ll never forget the look on his face staring me down. I thought he wanted to hurt me bad. Then he stormed out to go to the OW’s house. I think of that scene and the last time I saw his face…10 days ago when I dropped off the crap from the garage. This time, the face was shaken, scared. He couldn’t even look me in the eye. He was powerless. Do you know why that is? He knows that I know who he is. The devil himself. And he knew what I was…..afraid no more!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:06pm

39. OxDrover says:

    Hey, Wonderwoman,, missed you lately!

    To answer your question–IMHO–if I believe in God, (goodness) then I also have to believe in Satan (EVIL) and I do believe that we (humans) have a choice (except for those poor folks who are not in touch with reality and don’t know right from wrong) and I believe the Psychopaths have CHOSEN the “dark side” (Just like in Star Wars).I believe they chose to embrace and enjoy evil. I believe that there comes a point where it is impossible for them to change that choice. The Bible talks about people’s hearts being so “hardened” that they refuse to listen to the truth, to humble themselves.

    I don’t believe that God or the universe “makes” anyone choose EVIL, that a person is ust created “evil” and has no choice. I beleive that even Satan had a choice, and he chose EVIL. Of course all these thoughts are JUST MY OPINION, and there is no objective evidence one way or the other. This is in the realm of philosophy, faith and belief. So my opinion is just that, my opinion.

    I wonder, you talked about him having sex with the OW and then coming home to get more from you—that is a CHOICE. No one forced him to do that. Even if there is biology and genetics involved in psychopathic personality disorder, never the less, nothing forced him to DO THAT, he chose to do it. He knew it was wrong (if he hadn’t known it was “wrong” he wouldn’t have hidden it).

    If that makes him “possessed by a demon”–then I guess he is/was. But I think because he had “free will” and “a choice” the responsibility is HIS.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:07pm

40. Iwonder says:

    Hey Ox,

    I know you know your Bible stories. I think about Job. How satan told God he could test Job’s faith if God would so allow. Therefore, God gave satan the green light and said, ok, go and inflict all these things on Job and you’ll see his faith is true. See, it think God lets satan roam the earth and tests our faith everyday. But you must be right about free will because it was Job’s “free will” not to curse God for the inflictions he had to suffer.

    We have to remember, sociopaths don’t have a conscience and don’t feel empathy. This is the problem I struggle with. Is it the physical mental health problem that causes them to do the things they do or is it because satan has entered their hearts?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:18pm

41. Stargazer says:

    Here is my answer to that question. It doesn’t matter–they’re just bad news. (bowing to NC)

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:58pm

42. Stargazer says:

    Wonderwoman, NO one deserves to be treated the way you were. If someone even treated one of my animals like that, I would stomp their face to the ground. (Sorry, that’s not very ladylike but it’s true).

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:02pm

43. Stargazer says:

    No, I didn’t lie down and roll over, Wonderwoman. I turned my ex in when I found out what his con was. They told me he was on suicide watch. For a few hours I felt guilty, like I was ruining his life or something. Then I remembered that I was genuinely suicidal for a month after I found out how he played me. They make their own bed. Like Martha Stout says, if you want to know whether someone is a sociopath, just follow their lives. In the end they usually end up murdered, in prison, or in some other pitiful condition. It’s not our job to save them or protect them. For those who feel sorry for a sociopath who’s had a bad childhood, let me just say that I had a horrendous childhood. I don’t steal, lie, and con people.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:08pm

44. Iwonder says:

    Star: I know he’s a sick individual. I got confirmation he did the same thing to the woman before me. That was his wife. She and I email a few times a week. She hasn’t been with him for 3 years and she’s been in Jersey all the way to Florida since Sept to see if she could get him to cooperate with divorce papers. She mailed him the final signed paper a month ago and he’s dodging her not letting her know if he got the paper to the courthouse. It’s all about control. She moved on and wants to re-marry in the near future but he’s being an arse. Not answering the phone or texts. She wants to get back to Florida and get on with her life but he’s got that on hold.

    Writing to the wife was helpful with healing. It lets me know it wasn’t me and lets her know it wasn’t her….it’s him. He’s not right. He treated us like objects. He wouldn’t let her out of the house and cut her off from friends and family and abused her…just like me.

    My ex knows I chat with the wife and of course doesn’t like it. He is totally exposed. All these red flags and the current victim is ignoring them all.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:17pm

45. Iwonder says:

    Star: Do you know how mean this guy is? We were engaged and he referred to me as “fiancee.” The reason I put his name on the deed was per his request. I told him ok, as long as we are getting married. On the day he was signing the deed papers and getting them notorized, he called me on the phone and said, “you know, I really don’t have to turn this property back over to you. it would be a civil matter and my word against yours. I reminded him I put his name on the deed because we were going to get married. He denied it. He said, “what? we never spoke of marriage.” “I didn’t move in with you to get married” “YOU insisted you put my name on to make me feel comfortable in your home.” I said “why are you lying? We went to look for rings, saw lawyers about getting your marriage to your ex annulled, etc.” How lousy is that? I asked, “are you lying saying these things because (OW) is there? So you don’t look so bad in front of her??” UGH. I know she was there listening. He’s got her believing who knows what. Can’t she see? Can’t she smell something stinks???? Doesn’t she feel like a piece of Charmin?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:40pm

46. Stargazer says:

    Wow, he gaslighted (gaslit?) you! I can’t imagine what that did to your soul to have to stoop to his level to communicate with someone so crazy and evil.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:43pm

47. Iwonder says:

    Star: He called me while getting the papers notorized asking me to put something in writing stating he wouldn’t be responsible for property taxes. Then the argument ensued..with him starting it. We saw 2 lawyers 2 different times for his divorce. I paid $250 the first go around for the consultation, another $250 for the 2nd go-around consultation, gave the AH a check for $1250 to have the lawyer do the filing (he spent the money on God knows what) and then the 3rd time I paid $65 at the courthouse for him to file. I reminded him of this and he said, “you must be going senile in your old age….we never saw attorneys or anything!” UGH!! When I dropped off his crappy TV’s at the OW’s house 10 days ago, I put the file of the paperwork for the 3 divorce filings in a box and left that too. All the paperwork was completed by him…in his handwriting. I hope the OW took a gander at that. What a lousy liar. When we were arguing on the phone he complained about me taking the car away from him and claiming he had financing to put the loan in his name. I reminded him I gave him that opportunity but he had no credit so I took the car. I asked him if he has a car now…he does not. Let me see, if he has financing for an auto, then why doesn’t he have a car?? Wow. He needs some serious psychiatric help. I hope the OW enjoys driving him around in her car.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:50pm

48. Stargazer says:

    You must feel so much lighter without this leech sucking the life out of you. Wonderwoman, when did you first suspect something was amiss in your relationship with him? Did it take a while?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 1:54am

49. Iwonder says:

    Good Morning Star:
    The first 6 mos of our relationship was great but I did notice jealousy signs. I ignored it thinking it would go away in time. After 6 mos I was so hooked on him he started getting worse…and worse. I guess it was gradual. During the next year he became verbally abusive, controlling and dominating. I kept trying to correct him but nothing worked. It was a crazy cycle. After a verbal assault, he’d leave to “cool down” and come back saying he wanted to work things out. What he was doing was going to the OW’s house after the fights.

    He did the same thing to the woman before me. I doubt things have changed.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 9:41am

50. Stargazer says:

    I think 6 months is a long time and I can understand how you can get hooked in much less time. It only took a few weeks in my case to get hooked in. I’ve heard it can take 6 or more months for the controlling behaviors to come out. Thank God I didn’t stick around long enough to see that. You are doing great! I’m very proud of you. It takes a while, I’m sure, for the toxicity of the relationship to wear off. In any dysfunctional relationships there is toxicity, but I think in the case of the sociopath it is much worse because their capacity to take responsibility is zero. They project EVERYTHING. It’s creepy.

    BTW, did you see that I logged onto Amazon.com to buy a workout tape, and “How to Spot a Dangerous Man” popped up on the home page? I took it as a sign and bought it.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 11:06am

51. Iwonder says:

    Hi Star:
    Yeah, he got me hooked good. He moved in 8 months after we were dating. I remember he said he could never cheat on a woman while living with her. What a lie. We were together 2 years and all the while, he had been calling other women and actually acted upon starting a relationship with the OW 6 months after he moved in. It’s the same pattern. 3 mos after he was with the one before me, he married her. 6 mos later, he left her for me. Seems like he can take one-on-one for 6 mos at the most.

    There was a huge difference between me and the woman prior to me. When he left her, she was sick over it for the entire 2 years until I called her to let her know I kicked him out and what he did to me. She kinda just slid away hoping someday he’d contact her. With me, I didn’t crawl under a rock. He wasn’t going to get away with it again. She joined forces with me to expose all of the untruths in his face. Let me tell you Star, when I saw the ex 10 days ago, he looked like SH.. and he actually looked broken. All the lies he told to his wife and me. There was no empathy on my part at all, God forgive me. I know he’s using the OW now just for a free roof over his head and for his son to have a place to be with him.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 3:03pm

52. Stargazer says:

    Of course he’s broken. I’m sure if you follow his life, he will come to some sorry end like the rest of them do. Imprisoned for fraud, or an early death. Thank God you didn’t go down with him!

    Good news. I just came back from the reptile expo. I did NOT see my ex there. I have to admit, I was a little jumpy and did scan the room a few times for a 6′3 bald guy, but thankfully, didn’t see him. I got in, cuddled a few snakes, got the frozen rats, and left. Got in, got out, got on with my life.

    And for Indigo, who knows what these are, I got to cuddle some baby retics! These are my favorites–the tigers, super tigers, and albinos. They were the cutest little things I’ve ever seen that grow to be 20 feet long!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 3:38pm

53. Indigoblue says:

    Thats albeanooooo dwarfs>right ! ~~~~~

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 6:58pm

54. Stargazer says:

    As a matter of fact the albino was a dwarf. I wanted to take him home so bad. He wrapped his little tail around my purse strap and tried to climb into my camera case. So apparently it was mutual.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 7:57pm

55. Wini says:

    inthebreach57: I’m answering you on a smaller post … the filled up posts make this old computer slow down.

    Yes, any anti-social personality always has to have control (that’s one of their insecurities that they haven’t resolved) and they do cause drama all the time because they don’t read the Bible to learn wisdom, so they stay as fools, fools that listen to their own big ego … instead of reading and learning Wisdom from the Bible.

    I don’t care what name you want to give them, they all have ulterior motives when they get involved with real, caring, loving, decent people.

    When we try to love them, they give us lip service … telling us what they think we want to hear. Behind the scenes, they use us for whatever they want to use us.

    Good advice to stay at arms length from that aunt of yours. You can’t change her … just send her love.

    When you get the chance, read former bloggs throughout the site and read all the articles that you can read to ensure you get a good education to learn what others know about the likes of “them”.

    Any time you want to chat, just write. If I’m on-line, I’ll write you back.

    Peace.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:43am

56. Indigoblue says:

    I will have none of this blogging to others Winch you will make me breakfast now and my coffee is not hot enough and the car needs the oil changed and I have lots of things to keep you busy while I watch football and you need to go to the store I am low on BEER !

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:59am

57. Wini says:

    What’s the matter Indi … do you miss your EX so much … you need to imitate his bad behavior? LOL … this is just another good reason we need to stop focusing on what they are about … and focus on how great are healing is doing ….

    Just a minute, I forgot where I put my arsenic … a little tsp goes a long way in coffee ya know? Get’s the job done 1st thing in the a.m.

    Peace brother, peace.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 6:08am

58. Indigoblue says:

    Winch Get to work ! What do you mean ya can’t buy beer at 6am? Yes you can! Go to the HOOD they have a package lounge that sells anything at any time ! I want Grits too and hash browns I want my eggs over easy my toast just right and a big glass of milk ! Don’t forget to walk your dog! Hey are you LISTEN to me winch? Where did she Go Now !

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 6:13am

59. Wini says:

    Indi, I was putting my 2 cents worth of advice on Larry King’s blogg.

    Therefore, can’t be in 2 places at one time.

    Besides, I told you that a tsp of my magic potion would do the trick … so ya can forget barking all the other orders out … you won’t get past your first sip.

    Wink, wink … That’s my Palin imitation … DID SHE BRING HER POM POMS OUT YET? YEAH, RAH, RAH, GO ELITES… Just go.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 7:09am

60. Iwonder says:

    Good Morning Wini:
    I’m having my morning cup of coffee and read your post about sociopaths not reading the Bible. Mine can quote verse no problem. Mine can praise the lord and stay up to watch the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Then he can turn around and use the Bible to show you how much of a sinner you are. He said I shouldn’t cut my hair. . it’s in the Bible that a woman’s hair is her veil. Then he turned around and said I shouldn’t wear the clothes I wear because men will look at me with lust in their hearts and committ sin. Then he’d turn around and abuse me and say it’s in the Bible that the woman has to submit to the man and that a woman will never be equal to a man. And here he is. The liar. The devil himself. God Forgive me.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:40am

61. Iwonder says:

    Indigo: You crack me up. I saw a guy posted on match.com recently that he was looking for a woman who wouldn’t mind staying home and keeping his house clean and that she really didn’t have to be very attractive. It cracked me up! At least he was honest. He was looking for a slave woman. I wonder if he got any responses to that one. LOL!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:45am

62. lostingrief says:

    indigo: you’re quite a character. where are you from?

    Iw: you don’t have to ask god for forgiveness. there is no intent behind your words. all you did was love. it’s very human — and natural — to want some degree of justice, right?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:47am

63. Indigoblue says:

    Winch HEAL or I will get up outa my chair and mess up your kitchen and kick your dog and step on your cats tail and spank your children for your insiboardnation ! the bibke say bow to me winch ! And that reminds me where is my BEER ? it’s friggin 9am suday mornin And I ain’t got no Beer winch If I have to get it my self I am going to need your credit card and your car NOW Winch! ~ LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:53am

64. Indigoblue says:

    Winches !

    The South ! Oh well Florida home of the GAY mouse !:)

    FLORIDA Where We VOTED for OBAMA Yes Yes Yes !

    Now look at that vote map and YawLLl see where the south really IS ~ LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:57am

65. Iwonder says:

    Indi: Get in your own car, get your butt down to the liquor store and buy yourself a case of booze with your own cash or credit. And when you come back, I need you to massage my feet and clip my toenails. There. HEALED.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:58am

66. Indigoblue says:

    LOL

    But sweety PIE ,LIGHT of my life my sky ,my Breath , My MOON , my sun!

    I ain’t got no $$$ ain’t got no Credit ain’t got no car! Please Sweatyyy The Game Is comming on inan hour! Love jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:02am

67. Iwonder says:

    Indi: What about my itty bitty toes? Aren’t they important to you at all? It’s always about you and your needs.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:05am

68. Indigoblue says:

    LOL

    Winch all you ever do is beoch , moan , nag ! Me Me Me is all I ever hear from you ! Winch after you go get my Beer you can Mow the yad ! Wash da car and clean ou t da Gayrage then I might let ya watch football with me after ya fix me Lunch! LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:10am

69. Iwonder says:

    Indi: let me bend over so you can kiss my behind.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:11am

70. Iwonder says:

    Indi: Your comment about the car was a sore spot. I’m such an idiot. I put $1500 down payment on a car, made his car payments for 16 months = another $4,800. Had to fix a dent he put in it for another $800. Oil changes, brakes, etc = another $1,000. Total = $7,100 I put into that car and when we split he felt he should be the one to keep it. I said, “what about the $7,100 I invested? Answer: “Well I don’t know what to tell you about that.” Also, “Do the right thing and let me keep the car.” “Keep the loan in your name and I’ll make payments until I get financing.” Reply, “What do you think, I’m an idiot? A finance company???” “The bank is closed!!!”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:19am

71. Iwonder says:

    UGH! A week before I discovered the OW, he took my credit card and went to GNC and charged $100 worth of protein powder he took for working out. Nice.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:33am

72. Indigoblue says:

    IKNOW

    I bailed my PSYCO outa jail he had been in for like almost two months ! I had to put up my JEEP title for collateral ! I paid $40.00 for the cab ride to my place from jail they always let you go after midnight ! I took him to Silver Glen park the next day to snorkel and hunt for snakes and play Frisbee !

    When it came time for me to get my title back He was to busy w/work to do any of the work ! I did it all and I said to my self thats the last time I do this he can rot in jail w/his friends next time ! LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:07am

73. Iwonder says:

    Indi: I also had to do all the work to get the title to my condo back in my name. I had to mail letters out to courts to get dispositions regarding judgments against him. I had to make all the phone calls to follow up for those papers. I had to beg for him to drop those papers off to me after he got them. I had to beg him to go to my attorneys office for 2 months for him to sign the final papers..he ignored my calls and texts. I had to do all the work and pay $550 to my atty to finalize the papers, and on the day he signed the papers, he called telling me he didn’t have to do it if he didn’t want to (yeah, I blackmailed him so he had to.)

    I bought his son shoes, clothes, put food on the table for both of them, cooked, cleaned, made sure his son did his homework, took them to museums and fun places. All he did was wake up and he was taken care of. The last few months we were together, he played video games on my computer. He ordered memory cards on my Dell account to make it go faster. He worked out in the garage where he called his girlfriend on the cell phone I paid for. He and his son did not lift a finger to help me with anything. I paid all the bills, mortgage, food and he treated me like an animal.

    GREED, SLOTH, VANITY, ENVY, JEALOUSY, LUST

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:16am

74. Wini says:

    Iwonder: You asked me that question before about your EX reading the Bible all the time … and can quote scripts to use against you.

    My EX too can read the Bible.

    Anyone can read the words on the page … It’s when you humble yourself to read the word of God is when you obtain wisdom.

    Big difference of EGOS reading the words … they are and stay just words.

    Remember, God knows what is in your heart when you do anything … open your heart when you read the Bible, and God’s wisdom will come out of the pages to you. If you are having trouble deciphering what is meant when you read any passage … pray to God to help you understand. That too, is written in the Bible.

    I’m glad you wrote this blogg to me again.

    Peace to everyone heart and soul as well heal from their abuse, move through the pain to be the best that God wants us to be.

    SMILE, it’s contagious.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:20am

75. Indigoblue says:

    ” For The , Lord , Will Bless the righteous; with favour will He surrond the , as with a SHIELD.” Psalm 5:12

    ” He shall cover you with His feathers , and under His wings shall you TRUST.” Psalm91:4

    LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:26am

76. Indigoblue says:

    almost almost almost Totally UnFathomable ! TRUTH is stranger than Fiction! LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:31am

77. Iwonder says:

    We have to remember that even though we are not with the exes anymore, we are not alone. God is holding our hands. There is NO ONE first before God. Our relationships should be with GOD FIRST. So when I get lonely, I talk to God and let him know that I know He’s there and I am not alone. Once we establish our relationship with God and feel we need no one else to love us except for Him, I believe truly, he will send us the right people in our lives and bless us and keep us safe from harm.

    We have to remember when the next person enters in our lives, to ask God to bless the relationship and ask Him to guide us. Ask Him to take away that person if he is not right. Ahmen sisters (and you too guys.)

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:35am

78. Wini says:

    Iwonder: God is always there for you and will never forsake you.

    Whereas, humans are humans with all their flaws and frailties.

    Humans can let you down, God never will.

    What we see in our EXs is their fears and frailties. They are lost … pray for them to find their way.

    Peace.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:52am

79. akitameg says:

    so guys– how the heck do we forgive ourselves for being entrapped?

    If I had stayed close to God while dating psycoboy–
    I would never had stayed in his web of deceit. Too many red flags. Damn that bible is right on about so many things.
    did anyone else make their P their higher power?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 1:00pm

80. OxDrover says:

    Dear akitameg,

    Believe me, this was a big thing for me too. I wrote an article called “Forgiving ourselves for being Human” you can look it up in the archives. This was the hardest part for me, even harder than forgiving them. I will never trust them again, but in order to heal I had to forgive them (get the bitterness out of my own heart) but I don’t believe that even God demands that we “trust” them again when there is NO sign of any sincereity or repentence in them.

    My own healing has been greatly benefited by not only forgiving them but by forgiving myself, to quit hitting myself over the head with my “iron skillet” (that’s kind of a joke around here on the blog, cause if some of my well known friends who are bloggers here do somethign really “stupid” like put themselves down, I threaten to hit them with my skillet!) LOL

    Seriously though, forgiving ourselves is difficult. Most or many times at least we have spotted the RED FLAGS that told us they were BAD NEWS but we made excuses for them, or did (in my case) some things I am not proud of, or struck out at them in our pain (me) but I’m human, and humans make mistakes, and make bad choices sometimes, so I can’t expect myself to be perfect, so when I am less than perfect, I must forgive myself and quit being bitter toward myself, and quit “BOINKING” myself over the head with the iron skillet! (((hugs))))

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 2:55pm

81. Indigoblue says:

    That would be Tue. 9 Sept 2008:)~

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:06pm

82. Indigoblue says:

    For me It was Realizing that Forgivness does not elimenate accountability or responcability!

    When God forgives Us He Forgets ! Sin What sin?

    People can Forgive but it’s a whole nother thing to forget!

    LOVE jere

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:10pm

83. akitameg says:

    Can someone give me advice about…
    I have been obssessed today with writing a sincere letter to the psychologist that this man has completely conned. TEll him the truth and abuse behind the scenes.
    Do I do this?
    thank you for your time—thanks oxdrover

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:20pm

84. OxDrover says:

    Dear Akitameg,

    I wish I could give you an “answer” that I knew was the right one, but I don’t have one.

    The psychologist might believe you and might not, but the thing is, Akita, that even if they do believe you, they are not going to be able to benefit the psychopath with it, because he will never change.

    I can tell you what I would do and why. First, I would not send the letter, and the reason is (the paragraph above) and the second reason is that it might backfire on you. How? I’m not sure, but everything I did to try to help my mother see what was going on (she was part of the abuse but also a victim too) and it backfired on me.

    The best thing is NO CONTACT, I think, and that means even “back door” contact–either telling others about them or listening to others tell you abut them. The LESS you can have anything to do with them, the better off you will be, I think–my opinion only. There are those here that will disagree with me, and that’s okay. I am not sure my answer is “right” anyway, but I also know the NEED to warn others about them, and the NEED to tell them off is strong in some of us (all of us?) but I did mine by arguing with them in my head as I drove down the road, screaming at them sometimes, but only I heard it. I also wrote letters and letters and tore them up. It seemed to help some in venting the stuff out. I also blogged on here as well.

    Some people gave me some advice on this and other blogs that I wasn’t ready to hear and I “blew it off” but eventually I came to see that they were right, when the time was right for me to accept that advice. You will too. The healing road is bumpy, with stones and pit falls, and broken glass and sometimes we lose our shoes and the going is painful, but eventually, it will smooth out, be less up hill, and your strength will improve. As long as you stay NC you will be gaining strength every day, if you break NC you will go back and “not collect $200 dollars”—sometimes back to square one.

    If you are not around them there is no opportunity for NEW injuries, and if you are NC the scabs start to heal. NC tears those scabs off and the wounds bleed again.

    So, it may not be right, but I suggest that you do nothing where he is concerned unless he is doing illegal activities and you can prove it, then go to the police. Unless you have evidence though, they may not believe you or just think you are a “woman scorned” and blow you off.

    Hope that helps, but it is a “definite maybe” and not really an answer that you can take to the bank, just one with some points to think about. (((hugs))))

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:46pm

85. Elizabeth Conley says:

    Akitameg,

    Don’t do it. That’s my advice. Pure and simple

    If the Psychologist were the kind of person who could see your ex is a Sociopath, s/he would have seen it for him/herself. Since s/he can’t see it yet, telling her/him about the sociopath will only cause him/her to further pathologize you and ignore the evidence s/he already has that your ex is an Sociopath.

    The quickest way to cause an educated adult to become convinced that you are unreasonable is for you to accuse someone else of being unreasonable. It’s one of the most hackneyed mantras of our time, this idea that only the unreasonable find others unreasonable. (Say that 5 times fast!)

    That’s just reason #1. Reason #2 is a bit more convoluted, but more important. It’s time you realized that for now, “it’s all about what’s between the thumbs!” (YOUR THUMBS, NOT THE S’s!) It’s time for you to take care of yourself, and forget about loserboy. Trying to take care of the shrink and any other dupe involved with the S is a distraction from getting you well and whole again. Don’t do it. Zero contact isn’t just about getting away from the S’s bad behavior. It’s also about taking your time and energies back for your own use, and denying the S “rent free space in your head.”

    Of course, I’m not telling you what to do. Go ahead, write the shrink. Maybe it will be cathartic. Maybe it will help someone else. After all, it strikes me as odd that you two were in some kind of joint counseling, but you weren’t married. (Is that true? Did I get that right?) If so, his success in manipulating the therapist might have been a tool that helped him to successfully manipulate you. Maybe if he sets up the same game with a 2nd victim, the Psychologist will get wise.

    Just search your own motives carefully before you mail that letter. What are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to score points off of the Psychologist? Something like: “See, I was right to mistrust him. He hurt me. You helped him hurt me. You should feel ashamed.” If your motives are something like that, you may want to rethink the strategy. I don’t think that making another normal person (the shrink), feel bad about being fooled by the Sociopath will make you feel better. It’s no substitute for making the Sociopath feel bad, and let’s face it, that’s not happening!

    Best of luck with all of this. Personally, I think you need to get really selfish for a while. Focus on your next job, your career, your next home, etc. Make “Me, Myself and I” your mantra for a while! It’s OK to do that when you’re in a really bad place. Friends and family will understand.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:59pm

86. Trinity says:

    I just bought this book on amazon and just finished reading “The Sociopath Next Door” does anyone know anymore good books to educate and help yourself heal?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 7:54pm

87. OxDrover says:

    Dr. Robert Hare’s book “Without Conscience” is a great one. “sharks in suits” is another one.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 8:38pm

88. Gemini_Fairy says:

    My list:

    “Without Conscience”
    “Women Who Love Psychopaths”

    Haven’t read “Sociopath Next Door” but heard it’s great.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 8:55pm

89. Iwonder says:

    Hi Gem: What’s the gist of “Women Who Love Sociopaths?” Does the author write that we are needy? Nurturing? I haven’t read it but if you have, share a little. I did read “The Sociopath Next Door.” Wow. That was a good one.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:04pm

90. Gemini_Fairy says:

    IWonder: The book is by Sandra L. Brown and Liane J. Leedom and it talks about women who are the women who have relationships with psychopaths. Here is a bit from the back of the book. “In the book we have: developed a “profile” of women who have attracted psychopaths, identified risk factor’s in women’s lives that contributed to them becoming a p’s victim, isolated specific temperament traits that are in many women who have long term relationships with p’s, described the unique love dynamics, and defined predictable aftermath symptoms which form the common syndrome of inevitable harm.”

    Like I said, that’s just from the back of the book but let me tell you I have almost every other page highlighted with post-it notes. Easy read too. I read it cover to cover in one night. And it definitely does not highlight us as needy. They specifically mention that too often we are told that we are co-dependents which is often wrong.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:17pm

91. akitameg says:

    Oxdrover and Eliz–
    I cannot thank you enough for your posts. i will be reading them and rereading them FOR SURE.
    I feel support! I can’t thank you enough.
    Akita

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:14pm

92. akitameg says:

    Elizabeth
    conley–
    you see– YOU PICKED up on the fact that no– we were NOT MARRIED AND yes– I have figured out that seeing this doc together was the biggest way he manipulated me. I TRUSTED THE DOCTOR. He was seeing him– folks paying for it. I should have known there but he cried “victim” of an alcoholic/abusive family.
    Anyway– you see– you picked up on it- and the psychologist did not??
    I hope you make more money that he does.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 11:20pm

93. Elizabeth Conley says:

    Akitameg,

    You’re welcome. I can see you are going through a rough patch right now. I hope things get much better soon.

    Gemini Fairy – “specific temperament traits that are in many women…”

    It’s only sane to ask, “How do I end up in these silly situations?”

    Since becoming more aware through this blog, I’ve been absolutely stunned by how strong my drive to make “everyone happy all the time” is. It really cuts into my productivity and effectiveness. It makes me stressed out, and it often drives my beloved husband absolutely nuts! We have conversations that sound like those cartoon chipmunks, Chip and Dale. “What to you want to do? No, What do YOU want to do? Well, whatever makes you happy…, No, I asked you what YOU want, I want a straight answer!!!” That last bit is him, getting annoyed. It’s just as bad with the kids. We took a short holiday this weekend, and as I watched myself in action, I was amazed at how much I worried about making each member of the family happy, happy, happy 24/7. When I thought one of them wasn’t, I became very anxious. Boy, I’m gonna have to get a grip here. Luckily my husband and children are kind and gentle, but this behavior of mine does explain why exploitive people in various organizations love to toy with my marbles. It’s so darned EZ!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 10:55am

94. akitameg says:

    Trinity–
    Two books that helped me a bit
    “High Risk” and
    “People of the Lie”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 3:39pm

95. lostingrief says:

    ”toy with my marbles” — that’s HYSTERICAL! never heard it before. gonna bite it!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 4:56pm

96. akitameg says:

    ughh–
    I sooo believe and respect what two of you have said about me not writing the psychologist that he has also conned.
    For some reason– I have become obsessed with it again tonite.
    it is like being raped– worse actually. I want the cops to know who did it. I want the shrink to know that I AM NOT THE CRAZY ONE as the S made a smear campaign the day he was done with me.
    And the mask of sanity to come off.
    Maybe I will write a letter than I never send.
    How am I supposed to live with all of the evil and the evil secrets that ONLY I know.
    Thinking of talking with a priest soon.
    This is sooooo unfair. if someone stole a tube of toothpaste they could be prosecuted. My life? My health?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 6:12pm

97. robxsykobabe says:

    Hi all…

    This post is interesting as just today, while teaching at the gym, one of my participants whom I used to run with asked me if I ‘ever ended up dating THAT guy?” I had talked to her about ‘him’ in our VERY VERY VEEERRRRYYYYY early stages of being in a ‘relationship’ as we were on long runs together.

    This caught me off guard, 1. because she remembered our talks and 2. because I remember telling her bizarre things he was saying/doing AT THAT TIME that didn’t stop me from persuing the relationship!

    I told her he is a sociopath and I asked her ‘wasn’t he doing strange things then (3 years ago) that I was talking to you about?” Her response….”yes, he sounded crazy.”

    WHY DIDNT I LISTEN!!! I can vividly remember our runs, one in particular, where I was telling a story that JUST DIDNT SOUND RIGHT and asking her ‘dont you think thats weird?” You see, I know I KNEW something was ‘off’ the day we met…and I continued to KNOW things were ‘off’ as I checked my perceptions agains others. I just dont KNOW why I stayed…and actually feel sorta goofy ‘processing’ everything that’s happened…as if I didn’t already KNOW on some level he was ‘crazy.”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 10:45pm

98. one_step_at_a_time says:

    robxsykobabe – so why do you think you pursued it?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 10:54pm

99. learnthelesson says:

    Robx-

    This was and at times still is an interesting stage/phase/process along the healing path.

    I found myself drawn with curiosity and shellshocked with him sometimes. And sometimes I refused to believe it was the “real him” – surely he was joking – playing games – really not meaning what he says/does… WRONG

    Also it shows just how little I believed in my instincts …how little I trusted myself and what little strength and tools I had in handling something uncomfortable for me back then. I stayed thinking nobody could REALLY be that way for real…. false hope kept me there too…that he would change.

    Lots of valid and in hindsight valuable information I learned about myself during this stage of the healing process. How to not only notice the red flags = but now act on them. How to practice and always keep in place my self-trust and self-worth and self-respect (self-everything) because when Im in tune with that – I can easily process someone who is not now– not only with themself but toward me.

    Also, I think didnt want my fantasy of who I thought he was, what I thought we had to be ruined by reality. It wasnt until I forced myself to accept the reality of his personality, his lack of self-everything, his disrespect and inability to take anything seriously — that I was able to no longer stay — because I finally saw I was with someone who was toxic to me – and most anybody who crossed his path – and chose to not address the uncomfortable oddities about him – until they too get burned by him.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:06pm

100. OxDrover says:

     Dear R-babe,

     We SEE these RED FLAGS, even without any “training” or “education” about psychopaths, they strike our gut somehow and it goes “ZING! danger, danger” but because there are other things about them that are APPEALING, we tell our gut to “shut up” because if we LISTENED, we would break off the relationship.

     As the relationship grows, we keep getting these signals but we keep smacking the signals down!

     The thing I think I learned is that I have to SET BOUNDARIES and then when ANYONE crosses one of these “deal killers” (no matter WHO they are or how much I have “invested” in them) I have to DISENGAGE MYSELF from these people ENTIRELY.

     Now, there are things we have to take NOTE of, and there are DEAL KILLERS. We have to look within ourselves in ANY relationship and weigh the RISK vs BENEFIT of that relationship, just like a BUSINESS venture. What are we getting out of it that is positive and what are we having to “pay” for that positive benefit. Is it a worthwhile investment.

     The DEAL KILLERS for relationships that I have set for myself with people within my CIRCLE OF TRUST—whether they are co-workers and I have to “get along” with them to keep my job, etc. is that I don’t let them hook into me or stay hooked into me EMOTIONALLY and TRUST them if they violate ANY ONE of the DEAL BREAKERS.

     DEAL BREAKER #1) LIES #2) ANY sign of dishonesty or cheating on a spouse #3) not being generally RELIABLE #4) HISTORY of serious law breaking of any kind (not that people can’t reform after crime, but I don’t want to risk getting emotionally involved with a former felon) #5) a person who is chronically rude or hateful to others #6) DRUG or alcohol problems

     Those are just MY “deal breakers” and they are pretty stringent as far as I am concerned. Anyone who lies and steals, is a chronic cheat on their spouse (I realize that sometimes even a good person can do this ONCE) etc. are not the kind of person I want to be closely involved with.

     I now LISTEN to my gut and when I spot a RED FLAG, I STOP, LOOK and LISTEN and then I ACT on it. I distance myself from this person at least emotionally.

     I realize we have to live in a world where there are people around us, living next door, in the market, at work, etc. that we do not want to become involved with any more than we have to be, and we can’t go live on a desert Island to get away from them, but we don’t have to let them into our CIRCLE of TRUST and embrace them, OR give them a chance to wound us.

     LISTEN TO YOURSELF. Predators give off signals most of the time, so when we get that “gut feeling”–STOP, LOOK AND LISTEN and then ACT to keep yourself safe.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 12:10am

101. ErinBrock says:

     “when I spot a RED FLAG, I STOP, LOOK and LISTEN and then I ACT ”

     Now I react like I do when I’m on fire….
     I STOP….DROP…..and ROLL…..right on outa there!

     Not willing to be ‘burned’ again!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 1:46am

102. robxsykobabe says:

     I guess I prided myself on not wanting to ‘judge’ him and in doing so, I opened the door. Things that he exposed to me, which were the ‘red flags’ I tried accepting as ‘what he did’ not as ‘who he is’. I guess my mantra was ‘he hasn’t been (mean, rude, a cheater, lieing, etc) to me, so who am I to judge?”

     The mysteriousness about him intrigued me, although at times, it felt downright disrespectful. I would ask and ask and ask for him to SHARE with me WHO HE WAS as, anyone who knows me (and maybe some of you have picked up on this as well) knows that Ive got nothing to hide and am an open person. I can see now that him avoiding sharing himself in that way with me was a way to keep me intrigued and mostly off balance. If I knew about what he ‘did’ either in other relationships or just in general life, I HOPEFULLY would have ran as fast as I could away…

     This brings up another memory…One time I emailed his mom because I was so frustrated with hearing how ‘bad’ he has been and ‘was’ that I wanted to know what was sooooo ‘bad’ that I didnt know about. His moms response (because he did and STILL DOES live at home….at 36) was this…”I would caution you over knowing too much. I dont necessarily think knowing everything would help your relationship as much of him was a nightmare.”

     WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT! Well, Ill tell you, its another red flag! She knew the level of destruction he is capable of causing…and now that Im thinking about it…I seem to remember other emails she and I had, particularly when he did something really stupid where she would ALWAYS end her responses to me with ” I dont blame you if you want out….” or “I understand if this is too much for you to handle…”

     Ok…the signs were all there and I didnt take heed…however-I WILL NOT beat myself up anymore for HIS idiocy and manipulations…

     I got rid of his things today…and smiled!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:01am

103. one_step_at_a_time says:

     robxsykobabe –

     one of the ways i was set up was that the character himself, and the other sock puppets talked about how damaged he was. he was also so lovely. so whenever he went on about how damaged he was, i went, no, no, no, you are so lovely.

     it meant i accepted a spirally worsening scenario as he got sicker and sicker (not so much directed AT me, but general conditions which meant i worked harder and harder and got less and less).

     duped duped duped.

     and about what your spath ex’s mom said – not a red flag, but a legion of red flag carriers coming right at you.

     and the bag is gone! good for you!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:20am

104. robxsykobabe says:

     One Step:

     I agree…a legion of red flag carriers coming at me, although none of them could divulge any information. It was like I had to ‘find it out’ on my own, but they were all there with their sirens blaring…

     I also understand though that I was possibly manipulated by his mom as well. She would tell me over and over and over again how PROUD she was over the MAN he had become…how much PROGRESS he had made…how he is that WONDERFUL PERSON she always knew he could be…

     And then she would write me those emails saying ‘I dont blame you if you left…”

     What a whirlwind! I said to him after we broke up “you know, it was like I watched you spiral further and further down as an outside observer”…I was right!

     Thanks One Step

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:26am

105. robxsykobabe says:

     This IS his pathology…I got to see it first hand! I was a witness to who he is and what he does…just like my family and friends are witnesses to who I am and what I do…but for good…

     He’s such an ass!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:27am

106. one_step_at_a_time says:

     robxsykobabe – i’ll call you ‘ass’ and raise you a ‘creep’.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:34am

107. shana31 says:

     I will add this title to my ever growing list of material.

     I think that we need to do a better job of educating our youth that there is evil in the world. They have been taught tolerance and acceptance to the degree that they may not be able to distinguish the really bad from the somewhat different. In trying to alert my kids to things, I get the “oh, Mom!” routine, as if I am paranoid or crazy for doubting. The whole Don’t Talk to Strangers movement seems to have flown out the window in this computer age. You “trust” people you have never met, and get an idealized view of the world. Some of the required reading that my teens have come home with leads me to wonder why we couldn’t incorporate some of the more broader topics like Without Conscience or The Sociopath Next Door. Heaven knows, we wouldn’t want to offend anyone with gender specific titles. Although I’m sure there would be a major backlash if we were to try and incorporate this type of teaching, it sticks in the back of my mind.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:16am

108. bluejay says:

     I read about Joran Van der Sloot (suspected in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway), in my opinion, a dangerous criminal (a spath). He has recently been arrested in the murder of a twenty-one year old girl, authorities finding her in his hotel room in Peru, with a broken neck. How could anyone break someone’s neck, just thinking about this makes me very uncomfortable, sick. What a way to leave this world.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 9:30pm

109. behind_blue_eyes says:

     All his date rape fantasies will come true in prison.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:16pm

110. bluejay says:

     I personally think Joran Van der Sloot killed Natalee Holloway, dumping her body in the ocean. Now he’s murdered another young woman, being callous about taking another life.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 June 2010 @ 2:07pm

111. Wini says:

     bluejay, I don’t know what to believe YET. They still haven’t found a body or body parts washed ashore anywhere. Not a bone, not a skull, nothing. I’m sitting back watching this fiasco. And, what’s up with the law enforcement in these countries hating Americans? Oh, yes, come to our countries spend your money, but don’t expect us to allow you to be safe.

     Anyway, this Kook can be a scape goat to focus on and not look into the black market of sex slaves.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 June 2010 @ 6:45pm

112. bluejay says:

     Wini,

     For quite a while, I have suspected Joran Van der Sloot of harming Natalee Holloway. I figure that he killed her, dumped her body in the ocean, and her body (if it had blood on it) could have been eaten by a shark. If you’re saying that she could have been kidnapped and sold as a sex slave (I hadn’t considered this possibility), how awful for any person to endure that hell. What man will do to his fellow man sometimes is astounding and disturbing.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 June 2010 @ 8:49pm

113. Wini says:

     bluejay, I am praying you are right. I can’t help thinking there is something more sinister going on with pretty Natalie than meets the eye. She’s the girl next door, blond haired American beauty. The other girl was an exotic Latina beauty who most likely would have disappeared, but probably fought them off and lost her life in doing so.

     Without a body, I wouldn’t give up looking for her. I just hope law enforcement in the USA doesn’t close the file on this type of disappearing issue.

     Peace.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Friday, 4 June 2010 @ 10:57pm

114. CAmom says:

     About Joran—

     On a Peruvian newspaper website I found a criminal atty states he believes it may take 2 to 2 and one-half years until trial, and Joran will be sent to prison to await trial. (1 of the possible prisons named is notoriously horrific—didn’t even have to google it–it’s that bad)

     (Also found some concern Joran’s case may be used as political football given Stephany’s dad is a [minor]politician–so for good or bad this could be a factor)

     Also found a recent article there regarding psychcopaths. A prominent Peruvian psychologist, called a “specialist”, Dr. Carmen Gonzalez, states she believes:
     (I roughly translated the article and paraphrased where not in quotes)

     There are genetic factors…but she believes the *major* factor is their early home life…concluding that “cruelty is home grown.” (comes from the home/early childhood)

     Continuing…
     1. Psychopaths are the result of loss of maternal love in early childhood, causing children to construct a false self to hide their impulses, frustrations; they later exploit their false self.

     2. There are 2 types of psychopaths–the “extreme” type–murderers, serial rapists, etc.

     The other type she calls “everyday” ones–who act out “with their spouse, family, children, and in the workplace.” Dr. Gonzalez states for those pyschopaths, “the value of others is non-existant. They treat people as disposable objects. They have no morals or feelings of guilt. Everything they do is for their own benefit, and if they appear generous it’s because they are ‘investing’. They can have adapted behavior; as such it’s difficult to identify them, and they have the ability to be convincing.”

     And…

     “There are no known therapies. Rorchach can identify psychopathic defenses and traces in order to treat them as children and adolescents.”

     Dr. Gonzalez stated it’s “very important to know” that those who associate with psychopaths “can be women who are quite naive, childlike or have very low self-esteem.”

     Glad to see the distinction Dr. Gonzalez makes between serial killers and “everyday” psychopaths. And that she considers the role of genetics, although asserting it most often arises from childhood.

     I would consider myself to have been very naive when I met my spath ex-husband (a clinical psycholgist). And I had very low self-esteem. But don’t believe that is true of every woman who gets tangled up with a spath.

     My dad’s mom died when he was almost 3; she’d been in the hospital on and off since he was born. Doubt any mother/child bond was established. He fits the profile of a spath.

     But my sister does as well, is an extreme spath, and our mom was in the home, and was loving and maternal. So not sure what to make of that…except my mom did tell me once that one day she “realized I’d been leaving (sister) in the playpen too much, I was too busy with you other kids. So I got her out and put the playpen away.” Don’t know if that was enough to prohibit bonding—my sister was about 12-15 months old I think.

     No answers–would my dad have been a spath if his mom hadn’t been gone/died? His dad wasn’t a spath, and my dad’s older sisters (ages 5 and 10 when my dad was born) were both great; his mom was described as being “warm, loving, always laughing, sunny disposition.”

     Wini—regarding sex slavery: I met an American woman who’d attended university in Madrid in the early 80s. One of her friends there was the daughter of a US Senator. The friend was kidnapped and found just as she was about to be smuggled out of Spain and into North Africa. Nothing was in the press in the US or Spain, and the Senator’s connections were what saved her. She was a victim of sex traffickers. As soon as she was found she returned to the US and never finished her studies in Madrid.

     In that same time period I lived in a port city (Las Palmas) in the Canary Islands, where articles appeared regularly in the local newspapers about sex slavery, and where several northern European women (over a period of time) had simply disappeared while on vacation there, never to be heard from again.

     I was warned to stay away from certain parts of the island. At that time there was much-publicized investigation (in Europe)into a triangle of sex slavery–believed to be France (Marseilles), Canary Islands (Las Palmas), and somewhere in the Middle East. Until shortly before I moved there from France I had no idea sex slavery (called white slavery in the press) even existed. A Paris-based friend who is an investigative journalist was assigned to write an article on the triangle a few weeks before I moved—he strongly advised me not to go.

     So when I heard about Natalie and sex-slavery theories I thought it possible. But agree with bluejay that it’s more likely she was killed. The white-slavery rings are too highly organized for a low-life scumbag like Joran to be involved with, and many other vacationing women would have to be missing in order for that to be a realistic scenario.

     And Wini, I did see and experience some awfully strange and frightening stuff while living in Las Palmas. At that time *something* was definately going on there. No idea if that ring was eventually busted up. Hope so.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 5:46am

115. bluejay says:

     Wini and CAmom,

     I have to get ready for work, so I don’t have a lot of time. Bits and pieces that I’ve picked up over the years (about the Holloway disappearance) by way of various news sources, led me to suspect Van der Sloot – he always seemed so unemotional in t.v. clips that you’d see him on (unaffected by what was going on in the moment for himself). The stories that you’d hear about him didn’t give the picture of a person with good character, more like having a criminal bent. When I look at pictures of him, it looks like there’s something missing from him (a void), not a lot of depth beneath the surface (if that makes sense). This doesn’t prove anything. He looks and sounds like someone I wouldn’t want my sister, daughter, etc. to get near.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 8:19am

116. bluejay says:

     Wini and CAmom,

     I saw a picture of Van der Sloot’s mom (from an interview that was done with her husband years ago) – she looked like she’s had a hard time, her face speaking volumes. That poor woman. I don’t know what she’s endured in her lifetime. She probably knows that her son is “not right”, beyond her help. What she must be going through now I can only imagine. I feel for her. Tragic.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 8:27am

117. Wini says:

     bluejay and CAmom, now it makes sense to me why this investigation finally got some meat to it … being that Stephany’s dad is a politician. They (the politicians) all stick together. Notice how everyone ignored Holloway’s mom’s plead. She must have spent her life savings paying for the media to constantly broadcast her plea. Not that the media didn’t make big bucks off the Holloway family’s misery.

     So, this kid could be just a kook, taking his aggressive failures in life on women.

     CAmom, I agree that childhood plays some role in why Spaths become Spaths, but we shouldn’t focus on blaming the parental figures, siblings etc. as the entire reason why Spaths are created because Spaths, as with everyone, are responsible for their thoughts, words, actions in life. Yet, we all know on this site (LOL), the Spaths that destroyed our lives never accept responsibility. I do believe that jealousy (envy) plays a major role in blinding the Spath from early childhood. Never learning how to get rid of their anger issues over perceived or real violations. Not riding this first injury allows the injury to fester as the Spath goes through the cycles of life experiences. It’s as if they keep this hidden score board and no one knows that there is scoring being conducted, not to mention, how we are being scored for anything we do. I would guess they are the ultimate in the Win/Loose personalities. They will always win and everyone/anyone looses. Never to comprehend that there is other mindsets out there … of win/win.

     Peace.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 10:23am

118. OxDrover says:

     Dear CAmom,

     I was in Europe and Africa in the mid 1960s (doing wild life photography) and boy was I naive! We were a group of Americans traveling by private plane and even though everyone except me was an experienced world traveler, there were some “interesting” episodes, one in the Sudan where a minor local official tried to buy me from my P-sperm donor, but from that experience and hearing about others, I did learnn about “white slavery” of women and children being taken and sold for harems and “sex workers.”

     I imagine it has ALWAYS gone on, especially in those areas, and goes on TODAY as well in areas where there is money to be made from it, and women and children are generally viewed as possessions for men by the predominant culture.

     Stephany and Natalie both were very naive young women to go off with some boy they didn’t know alone and thinking that this was safe and also exciting, being way too trusting, and it cost them their lives. Of course lots of young women have done the same things and NOT been murdered, but if it is YOU that picks wrong, you don’t get any second chances to learn.

     So it is up to us to teach our youth that there is EVIL in this world and that they should be cautious—but not all will listen. I’ve been warned about particular psychopaths and I didn’t listen and I was an ADULT. Fortunately I never ended up like Stephany or Natalie but I COULD have!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 12:41pm

119. bluejay says:

     OxDrover,

     What a life you’ve had! You must write a book, no joke! I agree that Stephany and Natalie should not have gone off with Joran (a stranger) – they obviously didn’t suspect that this average-looking person had a dark side, paying a huge price, their lives. You’re right about communicating (really stressing) to our youth about what kinds of people are on this planet, that there are people (who look like you and me), willing to carry out wicked, evil deeds (eg. rape, murder, theft, etc.) in our world. Always err on the side of caution.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 1:42pm

120. CAmom says:

     Wini and Bluejay,

     Saw a mug shot of Joran–taken either in Chile or Peru (no caption)–he looks horrible, huge dark circles under his eyes, appears *much* older than he is. And he looks unaffected, blank. (That void you mention, Bluejay)

     No, he’s not someone I’d want around anyone I cared about, not around anyone period! Don’t believe in the death penalty; but life in prison may be worse…

     Read that Joran’s mom is devastated. I remember photos of her back then too, she did look physically and emotionally wrecked. To know your child isn’t right and there’s nothing you can do is horrible. And I don’t think her husband was quite right either. She looked beaten down, wore out. Can only imagine what life was/is like for her.

     The fact Stephany’s dad is politically connected–what irony. Joran had ‘home court advantage’ before; now his victim’s family will. Her dad’s political activities–could be good, and could be bad–some feelings in Peru the case might be used to settle scores–chance for enemies to retaliate against the dad; chance for dad to retaliate against his enemies. Horrible travesty if justice for Stephany gets lost in political power plays.

     Wini–I hear you on childhood and know there’s no definitive answer on what makes a spath–the old nature vs nurture debate. Tend to think it’s more nature than nurture…not necessarily genetics, although no doubt genetics are involved, but so too is some sort of brain disorder. And I don’t blame/fault anyone with a spath family member. I know extreme abuse in childhood often results in adults with all kinds of issues, from garden variety neurosis to (possibly) spathiness, but we’re all responsible for our actions nonetheless. Not sure spaths understand that concept as they deny everything if possible, and if caught at something, tend to blame their victim. And the early jealousy/anger/injury angle is a good insight also. Can see that at work in my dad, my sister, and my ex.

     Interesting observation about score-keeping and they don’t see win/win as an option, they can’t comprehand that, see no value in that. Really distorted outlook on life–no nuances, nothing except winners and losers (who *they* consider winners and losers by their twisted standards) and doing whatever they want with no thought for anyone else. My sister is extremely successful, but the cost to others for her to be where she is now is revolting and scary. Huge number of people she’s left damaged, and more to come. I think tenacity is a good quality, but in a spath–no! They are relentless. The only ‘good’ spath is a lazy to the point of catatonic spath : )

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 2:05pm

121. OxDrover says:

     I can relate to the devestation of Joran’s mother, and she has my complete sympathy and understanding. When you realize that your son that you love is TRULY a monster and that there is little or no chance that it is a “mistake” then you enter the GATES OF HELL!

     At first you don’t want to believe (denial) then you start to SEE and it is too painful, so you bargain with God and the Universe “Oh, maybe it isn’t true! Please God make it not true” and then you wish you could change places with the mother of the dead girl, you wish the community would come together to support you and yoiu could bury your child and know that they were not suffering any more—but your child is in a prison with HORRIBLE CRIMINALS who will hurt him, and there is nothing you can do to protect him. You go to sleep worrying about him, and you dream about him, and you wake up dreaming about him and worrying.

     I empathize with Joran’s mother totally because I have been there. The world condemns her because “she raised a monster” like it is her fault—not taking into consideration that he had CHOICES. My guess is too, that his father was probably a P and that Joran’s mother has been LIVING IN HELL for a long time, but is really going to go DEEPER into hell now unless she can realize the TRUTH, the truth that her son is a psychopathic monster. Even then it will be difficult for her to detach, painful for her to detach–but there IS LIFE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT FIREY realization and detaching from them.

     I think that Joran is probably off the streets for good and is going to be locked away in a prison in Peru for a long time to come, so that’s at least a good thing. I pray for his mother and that she can find peace in her own life.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 2:15pm

122. CAmom says:

     Oxy–Wow! Agree with Bluejay–write a book!

     I was a very trusting traveler too and could easily have ended up a statistic many, many times. Usually traveled alone, still usually travel alone. Got stranded in a small town in Baja California once for a couple of weeks. A contingent of Americans working for Texas Instruments was there–contracted by Pemex to look for oil off the Pacific…long story short I trusted them. And went with one of the guys about my age to an isolated beach for the afternoon. He tried to SELL ME to some fishermen. It was the most helpless feeling…he wouldn’t let me talk, so I looked on as they negotiated and debated. The men decided the price was more than they wanted to pay. Honestly thought I would die, that he would kill me and no one would ever know.

     Had no clue he was nuts. He was really polite, had those southern manners, etc. Then snapped. Strongly agree we need to share stories and teach youth what can and does happen.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 2:15pm

123. CAmom says:

     Dear Oxy,

     Your post made me cry. That’s a lonely place to be–the parent of the perp. And to feel judged, condemned. And to worry about your child when no one else is. Very sorry you lived through that, and very happy you came out on the other side intact.

     My daughter is autistic. Not all that long ago autism was blamed on the mother–she must have done something wrong. My daughter was born when that belief was coming to an end, but before the autism awareness we have now. Even knowing it “wasn’t my fault”–I still felt guilty. Did I not take enough vitamins? Eat right? Not get to her in time when she cried? On and on and on. Took a really long time to lose the guilt–and think there may be a bit of it still, even though I know better.

     It’s not even close to what you went through. I’m so sorry, for you, and for all the forgotten, tormented moms.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 2:34pm

124. OxDrover says:

     Dear CAmom,

     The summer of 1981 after my divorce in 1980, I took my kids and we traveled and camped the three of us all over the north western states for the entire summer. It never dawned on me that we would be in any kind of danger that I couldn’t handle! DUH!!!! (remember that mother and daughter and daughter’s friend who were killed in the what was it, Yellow stone? and put in the trunk of her car?

     The ONLY close call I had that I knew of was when we were camping on a very remote river in Wyoming and two oil rig workers drove by in the middle of the afternoon fishing. They cvame back about an hour or so before dark and were talking to us. I have always carried a pistol on my trips alone (still do) and had my .38 on my belt under my sweater but it was obvious what it was. They were drunk, the older one more than the younger one, but the older guy kept asking to “see” my gun, and I kept saying “No” and I was gathering wood for a fire and he went to “help” and ikept tryhing to get on my right side where the gun was and I kept turning it away from him.

     They finally left about mid night that night and the younger guy told me he would “check on you in the morning and make sure you are okay.” Well, by DAY LIGHT we were packed and on the road.

     You know, even with all the travel I had done, and having lived in Los Angeles CA you would have thought at 30+ years old I would have had better sense than I apparently did! I think God protected me from my own stupidity.

     My little pistol has saved my “bacon” on 3 occasions, once when I broke down on the side of a freeway on Sat. night with a friend in the days before cell phones!!!

     I no longer am trusting with strangers, though if I see a woman broken down on the side of the road I will pull over and see if she has a phone to call someone, but I advise her to get back into her car and LOCK THE DOORS and wait for help to come that she has called. If she doesn’t have a cell phone I will call for her but not let her into my car. I may even pull up and wait in my car WITH THE DOORS LOCKED until a cop or tow truck arrives, and then drive away, but In the past, I would have jumped out to help her, or taken her into my car. NOT ANY MORE.

     I don’t pull over at night at all for anyone, though I will call 911 and report to the highway police that there is a car broken down on the side of the road at Mile marker X.

     As for you being in Baja and the guy trying to sell you, OMG! I have been there so many times, and I used to love it there, but the way things are in Mexico now, I would not go to Mexico at all now. I no longer go on “unscheduled road trips” alone, I don’t usually drive alone after dark any more (we have lots of natural gas drilling in our area now and lots of “oil field trash” in the area) and I am armed even here on the farm or in the car if I am traveling. I always carry some cash, and a charged cell phone as well.

     Actually, looking back over my life I think I must be feline because I have sure had “9 lives” and I think I’ve used up 8 of them!!! So I am being careful and cautious, but I REFUSE to live in terror!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 2:43pm

125. CAmom says:

     Dear Oxy,

     Yep, have gun, will travel! (have a .38 too–2 of them in fact) The incident you refer to happened in my part of CA–Yosemite National Park. Still talked about up there…

     I had a lot of close calls. None as dumb as going to the beach with a stranger (I did learn something!) but just the perils of being young and alone and on foreign soil. I hate that women are prey, but have accepted it. Men are also, but not as much as women. So have had many, many, many close calls. Even though I was careful.

     And I’m very careful at home too, but, like you, refuse to live in terror. A lot of people don’t like guns, but one career criminal told me decades ago he and his buddies liked that–and considered *anyone* who didn’t own a gun a *chump.*

     My dad (retired cop) actually gave me my 1st gun, one of his old service revolvers. Hope to never use a gun, but glad I have a couple and know how to use them properly.

     And I must be on my “9th life” too! LOL!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 2:59pm

126. OxDrover says:

     Dear CA MOM,

     I just recently got the BESt home defense gun I have ever heard of. It is a Tarus Judge–heavy pistol and I got the 6 inch barrel because it kicks a bit less than the 3 inch one, but too big to carry either one, but shoots .410 shell home defense load (four 9 mm pellets) or it shoots .45 long-colts ammunition. I keep it loaded with the .410 loads because it makes sure it won’t shoot THROUGH walls, but at close range (where else are you going to shoot for home defense but at close range?) it is EL PERFECTO and even with only 5 rounds you have 20 projectiles and you aren’t going to miss with shotgun shells even at 5-8 yards which is where you would most likely be shooting from. Even at 15 yards the pattern would be more than close enough to stop a man.

     I keep it on my bed, under my Bible! The .38 travels well and I have two of them as well. My sons like semi-automatic pistols but I’d rather have a revolver as I trust them more and if an auto jammed I’m not sure I’d react fast enough. The down side of a revolver is I have not found a red dot laser site that works well on one that I can afford. I bought one and it was a waste of money, couldn’t get it to mount right. For nights that would be great.

     Yea, I think we both need to take care of ourselves, that we are probably on our last “lives” LOL

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 3:18pm

127. CAmom says:

     Dear Oxy,

     I’m in awe! You really know your guns! I’ll look into the Taurus you mention. It sounds very accurate–a .38 even at close range, because no doubt I’d be trembling, is no guarantee I’d be ‘on target.’ My dad and my uncle (a Constable and rancher) both prefer revolvers because of the jamming problem. I keep a gun at hand, on my bed, at night too.

     My dad’s old service revolver is a longer barreled Colt .38, more accurate than the short barrel Taurus .38 I have. I hope no one finds these gun posts upsetting. You grew up in the country I think? And I spent all summers and week-ends and my sophomore year of high school on my uncle’s ranch. Since he was the only “lawman” up there in the mountains he felt he (and my aunt and me) was a target (no pun intended!) and wanted me to be able to protect myself. There were guns hidden all over the house and barn. I think when you grow up with guns, and have seen them used and cared for with caution, you have a different attitude about them.

     And I lived in the mountains off and on as an adult too. Now I live in gangland, so while the critters are different, they’re still a threat.

     Like the time the rattlesnake…and then there was that rabid skunk…and that poor cow we had to put down…and can’t forget the squirrel-for-dinner-hunting! (Seriously–my uncle was a combo of Grizzly Adams and the Marlboro Man–eating rodents? Hell yes! And you better clean your plate!)

     And on that note…gotta go bottle feed kitten formula to a couple of tiny motherless kittens who are demanding to be fed!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 3:52pm

128. bluejay says:

     CAmom and OxDrover,

     You both should write books, each one of you having an interesting and compelling story to tell!

     OxDrover, a possible title for your autobiography could be, Nine Lives (and counting): A Woman’s Journey through the Minefield of Sociopathy. I’m sure that you could come up with a better, more appropriate title.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 4:14pm

129. bluejay says:

     I really hope that people would show compassion toward Joran Van der Sloot’s mother, knowing that she needs help at this time of her life.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 4:20pm

130. OxDrover says:

     Dear Bluejay,

     Actually that’s a great title! Not sure I could live up to the writing though! I’ve done a couple of local history books and am actually embarassed to claim them now, writing is difficult!!! It is work. I admire those that do it for a living. I doubt that there will be a lot of compassion for the woman. Scot Peterson’s mother I think is a P herself, from what I have read she seems to have a great many of the traits.

     Yea CA mom, definitely. I also have one of those Tarus .38s as my colt detective (short barrell) special got to be worth more $$ than to be treated Like I treat a travel gun, so My son got me the Tarus 38 so if I ever have to use one (you never get them back) it would be a cheaper one, plus not so much holster wear on the other one.

     I’m not a big gun “collector,” just those 3 pistols and my grandpa’s old double 20 g and a muzzle loader rifle and a navy 1851 muzzle loader 6 shot pistol, that’s my entire collection. The boys have more but even they aren’t like big collectors, and we have reloading stuff for all the guns we have so we can afford to shoot. Ammo is very expensive now.

     I’m a self taught “instinctive” shooter, just learned it as a kid never even thought about how I did it, so maintain reasonable accuracy without a lot of practice. Don’t hunt any more as we don’t need the meat.

     I don’t think I could live in gang-land, I get paranoid and antsy when I go visit my best friend in town and she lives on a quiet street in a quiet texas town very little crime etc. I used to live in L.A. and never worried and in Dallas and Miami (I did get paranoid there!@) but now I like the quiet of the country.

     I’ve been reading some things about the healing power of “silence” and “quiet” and “solitude”–though actually there are lots of SOUNDS at night here, the frogs, crickets, circadia, coyotes, etc. actually quite loud at times. But it is relaxing sounds not potential threats.

     I like having my son live here even when he is gone a lot or like now, off the place working for several weeks, he’s a great room mate and if he gets married or takes off for other parts I will probably see if I cant find a roommate–sexual orientation and gender don’t matter– not looking for a partner, just a roomie. I have several friends that might be compatible roomies. Actually if my son C hadn’t lied to me (in December and I sent him packing for the lie) he was a great roomie, helped out around the place with his share of housework and yard work and all that. My place is big enough too that there’s plenty of space inside and outside for adults living together, so you don’t get under each other’s skin.

     My son D’s friends like to come up on weekends, and If we’re doing something, I’ll put them to work! Treat them like my kids–if you eat here and I need something done, get yer butt movin! First time you’re a guest, after that, you’re family.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 4:52pm

131. libelle says:

     Wow! I travelled lots of times alone through the backlands from US, from Salt Lake City to Albuquerque via Denver, from Mephis to New Orleans, and I hiked in the seedy suburbs of San Antonio, Texas. I loved it and it felt safe all the time. I slept in Motel6 which was just fine.

     After reeading these posts I can’t help thinking that I must have had a squadron of guardian angels flying in shifts! I even did first aid once in the Delta near New Orleans, a biker was run over by a truck. I made sure that he moved away from the road (he was in the middle of the highway) and that he was o.K., and left without giving my address as the paramedics arrived. Lawyer-paranoia perhaps?

     I read that in the Delta the ratio gun pre capita is highest in the whole US, but YOU USE THEM TOO???

     Well, for my next holiday maybe a retreat in a SPA with Ayurveda or the like would be more nerve-friendly

     I seriously hope nobody of us here has ever the necessity to use a gun! ((((Hugs))))

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 5:50pm

132. libelle says:

     Ups, should be “guns per capita”

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 5:51pm

133. OxDrover says:

     Dear Libelle,

     Not every gun owner is some crazed terrorist, most of us are law abiding people. I hope I never have to use my gun even to frighten someone much less put a hole in them, I have twice pointed my gun at men, and once just having it I think saved me, but at least two of the times I think having it saved my life, and probably all three.

     There’s video floating around on the internet of an 11 yr old girl home alone who nailed two gun toting robbers who broke into her house, her dad had taught her to shoot!

     There’s an old saying that “God made men and women” but Mr. Colt (a gun manufacturer) made them EQUAL. I’m not nearly as strong as even an unarmed man, andn if I was not allowed to own a gun, I would find SOMETHING that would help make me more equal in a fight and keep it handy.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 8:57pm

134. hens says:

     I am a gun owner, I am glad tho that the bill did not pass to allow gun owners to carry them exposed. There are too many gun owners that have no business with a gun but how do you regulate that?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 9:42pm

135. OxDrover says:

     Dear Henry,

     you can’t regulate away stoopid! LOL I open carry here on the farm, but that is legal, you just can’t do it off your own land. The one time lately I didn’t have a gun on me the dog had this HUGE water moccosin coiled up in the yard and by the time I got a hoe he was gone!

     Haven’t seen any copperheads last couple of years so guess these giant moccosins are eating them! LOL That’s about all we have seen the last few years, makes me want to hire a dozer and fill in the pond by the house! Son D killed one huge one so far this year, guess it was the mate to the one the dog coiled up. Glad he didn’t bite the little dog that would have been the end of the small dog.

     Guess I shouldn’t be talking about killing snakes, Stargazer may be lurking out there and BOINK me with my own skillet!

     BTW, I got out of the house today, went to the community retirement party for our postmistress, then went to my friends’ farm and got the 2 kittens I had spoken for (for my barn) they are so cute, no tails, and SEVEN fingers on all 4 feet. I’ve got them in a crate in the house til I get them more gentle, they haven’t been handled much so they’re kind of SPITTY! Speaking of which, Son D’s House cat is REALLY SPITTY with these interlopers in HER HOUSE! The dog thinks its cool to have another self animated mobile toy in the house.

     You guys have a good night, I’m off to bed, didn’t get my nap today! This retirement is really hard, get up at 9, coffee til 10:30 then take a break, then LF till lunch, take a break til 1:30 then take a nap till 3, then more LF, and then supper at 5 and feed the dogs, then relax till bedtime, then read an hour, then go to sleep! Ah, what a rigorous schedule! Don’t know how I keep up! LOL Nitey nite!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 11:34pm

136. hens says:

     See how you are Ox, call me stoopid and go to bed. You are the only person I know that would be excited about gettin a cat with 28 fingers..now that is weird. spitty.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 June 2010 @ 11:59pm

137. ErinBrock says:

     Rosa thinks it’s cool to have ‘another self animated mobile toy in the house too’!
     From what I recall, hers has 7 fingers and many feet too!

     

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 3:00am

138. one_step_at_a_time says:

     hens: re guns – it’s not possible to regulate stoopid.

     if it was, none of us would be HERE.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 7:39am

139. Rosa says:

     I had no idea so many people were “packing heat”.
     See….I’m not the only one who likes “gadgets”.
     Looks like everybody’s packin’ somethin’.

     When it comes to firearms, I would be happy to have a taser.
     I need something that would allow me to shoot with reckless abandon, without causing too much damage.
     I think tasers are the cat’s meow.

     “Don’t tase me, bro!”

     This is more of the effect I’m looking for, just until the police arrive….

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMkGOpAF4s

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 11:41am

140. erin1972 says:

     Hey ya’ll. I went to the range yesterday with my two guns. I’m going to be a cop so I have to practice. I am very seriously considering going active duty army beforehand-after I in get in shape. I used to be the naive one too-thanks to mom. I was the people-pleaser. I trust NO ONE now. It’s amazing how much I’ve changed for the better since the spath dumped me.

     I have my glock 27, which is a subcompact little .40 caliber and I am good with it. My back-up is a little snub nose S&W .38 special revolver. I love going to the range to practice. It is such a huge stress reliever for me. I have been under chronic stress for years due to my low self esteem. I am hoping to start boxing/martial arts soon. There is a gym near me that is dedicated to both.

     Yes, I am overweight but I am excited about the future and will hopefully start taking it off soon. I finally replaced by stolen bicycle yesterday and I’m so excited. I had been without one for a year and a half.

     After the experience with the spath, I am finally getting my life together-the way I want it to be. I am so happy to be at the point where I rarely think about him anymore and when I do, there is no sadness or left over attachment-it’s just something that happened and now it’s over. It’s in the past.

     I think of my sisters who are anorexic. One of them is meaner than a dog shittin tacks. One of my friends said: of course she’s mean-she’s hungry. LOL! I would rather be how I am now, with a lot of weight to lose, than to be her anyday.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 12:35pm

141. OxDrover says:

     Dear Rosa,

     I’m not sure those tazers aren’t meaner-n’a gun! At least if you shoot someone they die and don’t twitch to death! I got into a really well grounded electric fence once and believe me I NEVER WANT THAT TO HAPPENN AGAIN!!!! LOL

     A friend of ours who is a cop brought his DVD of his being tazered over to show us. Every cop who uses one has to be done himself, they also have to get pepper sprayed as well. I think I’d find another job rather than go through with that! LOL

     Actually I think they are great police tools for some situations that need a non-lethal “reach out” control for some people where the officer is not put at risk having to physically bring down the “subject” who may not be armed, but might be strong.

     Yea, Rosa I can think of a few Ps I’d llike to tazer too! (You bad girl for giving me ideas like that!!! I’d never shoot them unless they were actually threatening me, but I MIGHT tazer them just for FUN! But YOU put the idea in my head, so it is your fault I am sitting here having this VIVID VISION in my head of them laying on the ground twitching and begging while I pull the trigger–over and over and over and over and over and over and over….LOL)

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 1:27pm

142. ErinBrock says:

     A cop highly recommended a tazer to me.

     Yes….the visual of the convulsions on the porch…….okay….that’s enough eb.

     the barbs are like whale harpoons…..they are designed to ’stick’. YIKES!!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 2:04pm

143. Hopeforjoy says:

     Question about the auther of this book, “How to spot a dangerous man”, Sandra Brown. She offers retreats to those healing from a relationship with a disordered person, have any of you been on one of these healing reatreats? I have an aquaintence who went to Tennessee for a healing retreat because her dad is a sex addict and narcissist. It was beneficial to her in her journey and helped her see that there was nothing she could do to alter her dad’s behavior.

     Wondering if any of you have gone to a retreat like this and if it was helpful for your recovery.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 2:04pm

144. one_step_at_a_time says:

     hopeforjoy – man, i wish i could do a retreat to help to heal from this!

     as far as i know no one here has done anything with Sandra Brown. Might want to email Donna directly and ask if she knows of anyone who has.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 2:14pm

145. Hopeforjoy says:

     Dear One stepper,

     Wouldn’t that be nice? Retreat with friends plus healing workshops? That is my idea of a destination vacation. Thanks for the advice, I’ll drop Donna an e-mail.

     How is your garden? Hope your vegies are coming in, and most of all, I hope you are feeling better.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 2:31pm

146. one_step_at_a_time says:

     hope4joy – garden is GOOD! green things in tummy!
     doing some good work in the community through it also.

     helath sucks. badly. new insult to action every freakin week.

     thanks for caring.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 2:35pm

147. hens says:

     I agree with Rosa, a tazer is the best way to go. I honestly think killing them would only be doing them a favor. Beside’s there is always the chance somebody else will do the deed for us.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 6:24pm

148. behind_blue_eyes says:

     Here http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/ are some good resources, particularly http://saferelationshipsmagazi.....agwarnings:

     RED FLAG WARNINGS are clues that emotional, physical, financial, spiritual, and/or sexual danger may be on the horizon. Consider that not every red flag listed below means you are dealing with a pathological. It means you better look deeper. The more red flags an individual displays, the stronger the indication is of a potential pathology.

     Emotional Feelings

     •You get overcome by an anxious feeling when you are around that person
     •You get a feeling that something isn’t quite right, but you cannot figure it out.
     •You feel uneasy allowing him or her to be alone in your house, but you’re uncertain why
     •You get a creepy feeling when he or she stares into your eyes
     •You feel drained after spending time with this person
     •You feel anger or hostile when he or she speaks
     •You feel very self-conscious or inadequate around him or her

     Physical Feelings

     •Your teeth clench and jaws get sore
     •You get nauseated when dealing with that person
     •You get headaches around that person
     •Your heart rate elevates in his or her presence (mistaken for attraction, rather than fear)
     •You get twitches or sweaty palms when in close proximity

     From Others

     •A friend makes a negative comment about that person’s character or behavior
     •Your family members say they are not sure if they like him, or admit actual dislike
     •Someone asks you what happened to his wife when you did not know he was married
     •Your friends begin to disappear from your life when he/she is around
     •People do not seem to warm up to him/her easily

     Circumstantially

     •S/He is living with parents or renting a room from someone
     •S/He does not have a car
     •S/He does not have a job
     •S/He has been in several short-lived relationships
     •S/He has just come out of a relationship
     •S/He has no furniture
     •S/He is incredibly tight with money and wants you to pay often or all of the time
     •S/He does not have many friends
     •S/He is abrasive, controlling, and inflexible
     •S/He seems to be insincere in compliments given to others
     •S/He seems to have no concern for others
     •S/He is secretive or mysterious and has unusual beliefs or habits
     •S/He asks you early in the relationship to loan money
     •S/He is drinking or drugging excessively or new to a 12-step program
     •S/He has come from an abusive home
     •S/He enjoys others shortcomings and acts superior to others
     •S/He is very charming at times, but can be very harsh with a short fuse
     •S/He seems unable to empathize with others
     •S/He is a victim of something with an awful hard luck story
     •S/He never takes blame for anything; it is always someone else’s fault
     •S/He twists and turns events into something favorable to him or her
     •S/He can change moods on a dime or is combative towards others
     •S/He has lied about the past, hiding children or ex-spouses

     This list is not exhaustive. You may come up with your own red flags. The key is to pay attention to them. They are your best protection as they help you to get out early or at least to know what you’re dealing with.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 6:45pm

149. behind_blue_eyes says:

     I experienced the following:

     •You get a feeling that something isn’t quite right, but you cannot figure it out.

     •You get a creepy feeling when he or she stares into your eyes.

     •S/He is drinking or drugging excessively.

     •S/He is very charming at times, but can be very harsh with a short fuse — however, he was not violent or combative.

     •S/He can change moods on a dime.

     •S/He has been in several short-lived relationships.

     •S/He has come from an abusive home

     •S/He is secretive or mysterious — he had the tendancy to disappear for a day or two.

     •S/He is incredibly tight with money — never saw this on any other list but Jamie admitted to being “cheap.”

     •S/He does not have a car — another one new to me. While car ownership is less common in Europe, I was surprised to learn he never learned how to drive.

     •S/He never takes blame for anything.

     •S/He seems unable to empathize with others.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 6:56pm

150. lostingrief says:

     had every one of the emotional feelings … ewwwwww.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 9:06pm

151. Iwonder says:

     erin1972, Henry, Ox, CAMom & Rosa:

     You know, I also have a gun. I’ve got a Walther P22 .38 pistol. It has a red laser beam too. Can’t miss! I find shooting at the range is great therapy. Plus I feel that American Citizens we have the right to bear arms. I live alone. I have no dog. I feel safe knowing I can handle myself should the situation arise.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 10:21pm

152. hens says:

     I applaud you Iwonder for packin a gun AND KNOWING HOW TO USE IT…I am afraid society is going to explode and we may need to defend what little food we have………………~~~!!!!!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 11:00pm

153. PureWaters says:

     OxDrover,

     I just read 2 of your posts about your son…. wow. I just want to say, that I have A LOT to learn from your story.

     I sometimes fear that my son with be a sociopath. At 1 year, he shows genuine attachment to me, cuddles with me, likes to drink his bottle with me, crys out to me when I’m around him, is happy when I’m near…

     But, one of my worst fears is going through what you went through.

     Could you tell early on that your son was a sociopath???

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 11:21pm

154. OxDrover says:

     Henry, load those balls with something besides paint! LOL

     I am not one of the newly emerging group of “survivalists” that are mid way between the right wing radicals living in bunkers and the “save your confederaste money boys, the south’s gonna rise again,” but fairly NORMAL people are realizing that our way of life can’t go on forever and each of us should be somewhat self sufficient, YET COOPERATIVE! Go green! The old Boy Scout motto BE PREPARED!!!

     I believe no matter where you live, you should keep at least a month or two’s supplies of dried staples (rice and beans folks) and some WATER put away for earthquake, invasion, tornado, floods, or whatever happens. I remember in 1971 when we were in Los Angeles when the big earthquake in Feb hit (I was 8 months preg) bread went to 4 x the normal price in 24 hours, and so on. It never hurts to BE PREPARED with food and water stored. Especially if you live in an area that is prone to earthquake or other kinds of storms. Keep some CASH on hand too, keep your car tank FULL all the time, have a “rush and ready” bag handy in case you have to grab it and GO—with extra medications for at least a few days, copies of importnat papers, shot records for kids, a couple of changes of clothes. Most of us have never been through a major emergency, but just like lyou carry a jack in your car and a spare tire for emergencies, IT IS BEST TO BE PREPARED.

     You may keep a fire extinguisher jin your kitche ( I do) and a huge box of baking soda for grease fires (I do) and hope you never need it but still it is an “insurance policy” in case you need it.

     Same way with the gun, it is my “insurance jpolicy” that I will not be caught off guard witout any defenses. I hope I never need it AGAIN but if I do it is my best friend! I’d carry a cop, but they are WAY TOO HEAVY (too many donuts!) and WHEN SECONDS count, help is only MINUTES AWAY!

     I also have an emergency medical kit in each vehicle, a few tools, a space blanket, etc. Never know when you might need them.

     BTW–today I went outside to blow the leaves etc off the front porch and I have a big cast iron bell on the front porch, there was a wasp inside with a nest and I pithed her off, And I am VERY ALLERGIC to them. I KNEW WHERE MY KIT WAS AND IT WAS IN ARM’S REACH—got one in every building on the farm, and in each car glove compartment of every vehicle! I got stung twice in the face, and had my needle in my leg in less than a half a minute! Only been stung (this is 3rd time in last 30 years) infrequently, but it only takes once to do you in if you don’t take care of it!

     I think maybe today was my 8 th and a half life, ErinB—getting close! LOL BUT I’m prepared!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 11:31pm

155. OxDrover says:

     Dear Purewaters,

     DO not worry yet! Okay? Love your son and be there for him 24/7, also get on Dr. Liane Leedom’s web site “raisingn the at risk child” ORDER HER BOOK, “Just like his father.” She will have another one out soon.

     It IS somewhat genetic but ALSO environmental too. I didn’t see ANY problem with my son til one episode at age 11, then when he hit puberty he did a 180 degree turn and became a monster.

     I’m fasr from the only one here who has a P kid or one that has some P tendencies, Gemini has two daughters (40+) that were monsters by teenaged years, Witsend does as well, her son is 17 and morphed a couple of years ago. Some of them start acting out EARLy (I am a retired medical and mental health professional) at 8-10-12 yrs, but others don’t show up til puberty. It is difficult to tell what is “normal rebellion” and what is psychopathic acting out. Believe me, I keept hoping that it was just teenaged crap, but it got worse and worse untikl he was in prison for a felony robbery at 18, then back in prison at 20 for murder. STILL I didn’t give up. I didn’t acknowledge I couldn’t help him and he wasn’t going to help himself. He also KNEW HOW TO CON ME. I finally wised up!

     LEARN everything you can about parenting, development stages of children, and give your child love, direction and acceptance—the rest is up to him. HE has choices ande he may choose to walk the dark side, but at that point all you can do is to WALK AWAY and let him go. It IS HARD! But I wish I had known then what I know now.

     In the meantime though DO NOT WORRY OR FRET ABOUT IT just be the best parent you can be and that is ALL you can do. It is enough. ((((Hugs)))) oh, and PRAY A LOT!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 June 2010 @ 11:40pm

156. PureWaters says:

     OxDrover,

     Gotcha! hehe. It’s so funny to realize how “I think” I’ve got everything under control, but deep under, I can still panic instantly. Tehehehe.

     I love my son so much. And, the most surreal part of giving birth was, he looked exactly like his father! Just the wrinkled version, haha.

     And, so somewhere inside of me, I worry… and watch. I know there is nothing I can do – that it’s in God’s control… every one’s life is, for that matter.

     But, God is funny in how he works… because as much as it would seem disturbing to tell people that a man who abused me terribly, would give me a son that was his spitting image – and that love would come so easily for this child. But, it did. It’s just instinctual.

     And, somehow, loving my son has healed a big part of me that was hurting from my ex’s abuse. It wasn’t my son’s job to do that, by any means (to heal me) – but, it happened from the moment I got to hold him, until now… everyday, really.

     Now, as time passes, I can almost forget what the ex’s face looks like… and when I look at my son, I realize it’s HIS face (my glorious, innocent son)… not the socio

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 12:01am

157. GettingIt says:

     PureWaters,
     There is a concept out there that we “attract what we fear”. To this extent, if we want or DON”T want something, it comes to be. So, try not to associate any fear with your son. It’s hard for me too, but I try to catch myself every time.
     It may sound crazy, but I did “bring it on” and I should have known better. God does not punish, they say. God teaches.
     Peace

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 12:08am

158. PureWaters says:

     GettingIt,

     I do agree that you can bring things on by fear, etc. I’m aware of that, but honestly, I feel fear sometimes. I don’t want to think that my son could be the monster his father was…

     I know I can’t control that. If it’s genetic and good parenting won’t help him develop empathy… there’s nothing I can do other than submit my will over to God, and trust in Him.

     I don’t want to live in fear continuously, and I think for the most part, I don’t think about the freakish stuff, anymore. I just live my life, and accept it for what it is…

     But, the only other option would be denying my fear when it hits. Or, being afraid of fear… oh, boy.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 12:27am

159. OxDrover says:

     Dear PureWAters,

     I sit here and read your posts and I SMILE because I hear your voice in my head from your posts and I know how I felt when I first came to LF—I FELT I HAD ARRIVED AT HOME! In a group of loving people who DID UNDERSTAND what I had been through! It felt so LIBERATING AND WONDERFUL!

     We all have fears, and those of us whoo have kids with/without the genetics we do the best we can to teach them, and to impart a love for themselves and for others.

     The story of King David was the greatest support for me. Read about his sonn Absalom. David ENABLED his son,, who was a psychopath (there are many stories in the Bible about psychopaths) and then his son eventually tried to kill him (civil war) and when it was over David grieved FOR HIS SON, not for the 20,000+ other people’s sons that had died saving his kingdom and his life.

     David was a sinful man but he was called a “man after God’s own heart” and I think his example is for US—he sinned and the consequences were AWFUL to himself and othrs, but when he was CONFRONTED with his sins, he REPENTED and OWNED THEM. When his general confronted David about his grieving for his Psychopathic son and not for his FRIENDS he got up, washed his face and did WHAT WAS RIGHT!

     We can look at David’s life as an example for us. We all make mistakes and we all do things we know are WRONG but we can and DO repent, psychpaths do NOT repent.

     I’m not sure what if anything I did wrong with my P son, or if I even did anything wrong that pushed him toward the dark side, HE HAD FREE WILL, and I do believe that though they tend to have issues that are inborn they HAVE A CHOICE to be EVIL or not. To DO evil or not. I also believe that when they HARDEN THEIR HEARTS BY CHOICE, they reach a point of NO RETURN, and they are out of the hands of God into the hands of Satan. We all have that same choice.

     Don’t DESPAIR even when you feel the FEAR. Acknowledge that FEAR and then pray and give it to GOD.

     There are so MANY times that God gave me the wisdom to RUN when I needed to run to save my life, just like Jonathan warned David to run from King Saul.

     I know that God could have kept Saul from trying to kilol him and DAvide wouldn’t have had to run, but there was SOME LESSON THAT DAVID NEEDED TO LEARN DURING THOSE YEARS HE RAN FOR HIS LIFE. Believe me,, I LEARNED A GREAT MANY LESSONS IN THE “WIlDERNESS” when I was running and hiding from my own son trying to kill me.

     I think there were lessons I needed to learn and I hope I have learned them, and one of them is that I have to believe3 and trust that as the Bible says ‘ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THOSE THAT LOVE THE LORD.”

     We don’t always know how, or why, we have to learn to trust but we must…trust God, trust our instincts, trust ourselves to do what is right even if it is hard.

     Keep your faith strong, even when you are afraid….((((hugs)))) and God bless.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 1:14am

160. PureWaters says:

     OxDover,

     ‘ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO THOSE THAT LOVE THE LORD.”

     That verse from the bible, when I heard it at a funeral for my unborn nephew, “saved” me. My whole life changed from that moment on, and I saw a little glimpse of God’s plan for us.

     Thanks for passing on God’s words and love. They are more special to me than any text book advice could ever give.

     Keep me in your prayers! I’ll keep you in mine.

     I have a long way to go…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 1:27am

161. ErinBrock says:

     Oxy:
     Now just WHAT are you suggesting hens loads his balls with?

     Just curious?

     

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 1:28am

162. OxDrover says:

     Dear ErinB,

     I’m not even going to bite at that one!!!! BE GOOD GF!!! LOL

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 3:11am

163. ErinBrock says:

     

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 12:50pm

164. Hopeforjoy says:

     One thing I have learned in this process is that there are no quick or easy anwsers. I must have the self help section memorized at Barnes and Noble but none of those books truely prepared me for the pain in this journey.

     To hear my daughter singing, is a great joy, and I take comfort in the joys in my life. Sometimes I don’t stop and look at the truely wonderful people in my life because I’m overwhelmed by the negative situation of living with the spath.

     LF has been a blessing, has opened doors for me more than the self help section ever has. For that, I am eternally grateful.

     Tomorrow is the last session with Dr. S. and I am going to let him know that I want a divorce, periord. I’m filling and it’s for the best, I hope we can be amicable and work out the best situation for our children. I’m terrified, as always. I used to write letters to the psychologist when we were in couples therapy, because I was too afraid to speak aloud. He only went ‘for me’, cuz it was my fault afterall. Wow, I was a sissy.

     Anyway, hope tomorrow goes well and my anxiety is for nothing.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 1:18pm

165. behind_blue_eyes says:

     “LF has been a blessing, has opened doors for me more than the self help section ever has. For that, I am eternally grateful. ”

     I second that…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 1:24pm

166. one_step_at_a_time says:

     hope4joy – you will need to be as strong as you can for the appt tomorrow. please don’t hold out any hope that the process will be amicable. it won’t.

     you will have to fight. so, be prepared in your mind that it will be difficult, BUT that you CAN do it. we are here, and we will help all that we can.

     be strong.

     take good care – you are worthy and you and your family deserve a good life, not what you have been living. keep that in mind, and hold the image you created to remember what he is.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 5:10pm

167. ErinBrock says:

     Hope:
     Do you need to tell him? Or are you hoping counseler will guide you through separation?
     Don’t plan on amicable…..
     I’d make sure attorney is ready to fire right away with docs.
     His niceties will surely change….
     He’ll flip flop between kiss ass and nasty and back and forth.
     Make certain you have everything important out of home…..things will disappear or get broken.

     Good luck….i;m sending you some EB mojo!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 5:43pm

168. Buttons says:

     {{{{Hopeforjoy}}}} EB has it spot-on, kiddo. It is not going to be amicable. It’s just not. The counselor being a witness is fine and dandy, but once you’re both out of the office, it’s going to get ugly. The games will begin in earnest. If you believe that the soon-to-be-ex was being nuts, recently, it’s going to get much worse before it gets better.

     Now, I don’t say these things to frighten you or to cause you to waffle on your decision. I’ve been precisely where you are with the same type of Thing that you’re dealing with. It is a pattern – when they believe that they’re goint to lose their property and source target(s), they turn nasty very quickly. It may be a pendulum thing where he’s lovey-dovey one minute, and explosively vicious the next. And, it does change from moment to moment.

     The one thing that the counselor told me when I had made my decision to divorce was this: I did not HAVE to engage in conversation or discussion with the ex spath. Even where the children were concerned, there would be no semblence of reason. The children were property – TOOLS – to use to cause harm and damage.

     Just be prepared, Hope. I’m with EB and sending you positive vibes and healing energies. Brightest blessings.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 7:20pm

169. hens says:

     EB I think you need to bottle that mojo of your’s and sell it by the ounce. EB MOJO. Glad the subject got changed since your post this morning..you can tell OX and Onestep I am still upset that they called me stoopid.
     HopeforJoy and Blues Eyes – I agree with your feelings about lovefraud, it’s a great place.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 7:37pm

170. ErinBrock says:

     Hens….I say…..get the paintballs ready and aim at Oxy and One……
     One likes rainbow colors…..
     Oxy….well……she wants them filled with something special…..
     your guess!

     XXOO
     EB

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 7:52pm

171. Buttons says:

     Somebody needs to bottle SOMEthing!

     I’m coming down off of a bout of….vertigo! Can you believe that???? The meds had me so gooned up that I didn’t know what planet I was on, most of the time. I’m sure I posted a few things that made absolutely no sense in the past couple of days! LOLOLOLOLOLOL

     Holy shitballs – where’s the Tylenol!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 7:57pm

172. ErinBrock says:

     Buttons:
     I hope your feeling better….I hear Vertigo is a bear!!!

     Feel better darlen!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 8:12pm

173. Buttons says:

     EB, thanks – it’s like being on a really, REALLY fast carnival ride. And, the drugs that they prescribe are nuts. If I had found a bib around my neck to catch the drool, I would not have been surprised!

     I’m GONNA get better!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 8:18pm

174. hens says:

     Buttons I wont ride carnival rides that spin round and round cause I will puke and be dizzy for hours .As a kid I couldnt even ride the merry go round at school..I think vertigo would be a very bad thing to deal with, hope you get better soon..

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 9:49pm

175. erin1972 says:

     Ya’ll the shooting range is the best therapy and stress reliever-ever and I do feel so much safer as a single woman living in the most dangerous city in the country. When I go out alone at night, it’s next to me in the car.

     Once I become a police officer I will get a taser also-too go with my guns. As part of my police academy training I have to get hit with the taser myself and get pepper sprayed in the face. The pepper is just as bad as the taser. They tell you to go and you run out and they spray you in the face and then you have to fight a member of the SWAT team. It’s cool cuz there’s no rules. It is a test to make sure that you don’t lose your gun. The object is for the SWAT team guy to take your gun after you get pepper sprayed. You fail the test if he succeeds and you only two times to pass it or you don’t graduate. One of the girls that I know of actually bit the SWAT team guy. That’s why I’m getting ready to start martial arts. I have been given hints by some of my friends in my original class about managing it.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 10:31pm

176. Hopeforjoy says:

     Buttons,

     I am feeling so guilty right now. I can tell that husband is sad and I feel like a jerk. He has been love bombing for the last month, or more, seems to care about the kids and for once in our marriage has been really ‘trying’. Guilty, guilty. He may be a narcissist and is experiencing narcisstic injury, I don’t know.

     Tell me how it went with you. He has not be physically abusive and actually listened to me when I told him to please not hug me. I sound really messed up, because I am. It’s the loss of a dream, it’s just a loss. I can’t fix this, I have to keep reminding myself, this isn’t my fault. Buttons, tell me how it was in the end, when you were firm with wanting him out. I just want someone to hold my hand through the whole thing, even if it’s a virtual hand. Thanks

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 10:32pm

177. Hopeforjoy says:

     Also Buttons,

     Sorry to hear you aren’t feeling well. My girlfriend had vertigo and said it was horrible. Something was wrong with her inner ear. Take care, feel better.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 10:34pm

178. OxDrover says:

     Dear Buttons,

     High thee to a medical practitioner! With the vertigo, it might be something simple, might be a medication reaction or could be worse, so don’t take any chances, get your butt to the doctor!!!

     Henry, just shoot me with whatever color you want to splat on me!!!! My son C does that paint ball stuff and he has scars all over his arm and even head and neck from being hit at close range with those things! BTW you can FREEZE the paint balls and they are lethal!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 10:52pm

179. OxDrover says:

     ps Henry,

     None of us here are STUPID, but I think we’ve all been STOOOOOOPID from time to time, and I am not leaving out MYSELF in that opinion!!! (((hugs)))) LOL

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 June 2010 @ 10:53pm

180. hens says:

     Ox and Gang I have something to tell ya, a man bought some property down the road from my son, he is building a house, he is single, he is 75, he has taken a liken to me, I thinks he’s “interested’ in me, he asked for my phone number but I didnt give it to him..I have not felt so young in years~!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:07am

181. erin1972 says:

     hens-OMG that is so sweet. That makes me happy!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:10am

182. hens says:

     erin72 I thinks he’s a nice man, a good man, but I have no interest other than a platonic friendship and I will maintain that with him but I can tell he wants more and I just am not interested..
     Erin back to your other post about friends..when I realized my X BF was a sociopath and I did so much investagation into physcology and personality disorders and learned alot about myself I realized most of my casual friends were toxic relationships as well..so I dont have too many friends these days..just a few. It’s funny how I used to believe what ever came out of a persons mouth to be the truth, now I am like ok tell me another lie asshole..

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:25am

183. OxDrover says:

     LOL ROTFLMAO Well,, Henry darling, that’s great! You know you could be the “YOUNG SWEET THING!” Is he rich? LOL

     Yea, that’s the problem with me, all the over 80 set thinks I am young and sexy and the guys my age are wanting a gal 40 or so. Hey, maybe you could be friends with him anyway, it doesn’t mean he might not be a nice guy. I have a cousin lives down the road from me who is 75-80 and was married for years and when he was 45 or so He got divorced and took up with the gay crowd. Moved back to home country and bought a cute older house and fixed it up like a doll house, and has been a really active part of the community. His health is going down hill now, but hey, he’s a great guy and everyone likes him.

     Besides, folks are living longer healthier lives these days, so you never know. You could at least see if you and he have anything ELSE in common besides a sexual orientation for guys. LOL

     And hey, I’m “interested” in you and we both have in common that we like GUYS! Does that make me gay? LOL ROTFLMAO

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:27am

184. hens says:

     no ox your not gay – just a horny ole lady

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:30am

185. hens says:

     p.s. yes he’s rich and I admire anyone at 75 building a house~!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:32am

186. erin1972 says:

     hens-you’re so right about the whole friends thing. I used to believe everything that came out of peoples’ mouths too and now I am exactly the opposite. I don’t trust anything anyone says anymore. People really have to prove themselves to earn the right to be my friend. I have really learned to watch peoples’ actions instead of their words. This last man that I thought was the “love of my life” had brought me out of the vicious cycle. He was the last of the sociopaths that I seem to attract. I will never fall for another one of them.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 1:04am

187. OxDrover says:

     Well, Henry, I have some friends who built a house at age 82 for them both! So you know, lots of people have good health and minds at older and older ages, so I say go for the gusto!!!!

     Well, since I slept til noon today (didn’t get to sleep til daylight cause of the cortisone shot for the wasp sting keeping me awake!) I think I’ll go back to cleaning house, might as well get some use out of this energy and being awake this late.! Was sweeping off the back deck today and found another nest inside the BBQ, but got them suckers before they got me, and sprayed that sucker!!! GOOD!

     Done so much though that my back is complaining and old bones creeking! Wish I was rich and could hire a maid!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 1:14am

188. shabbychic says:

     hens, cool !!!! you are the silver haired fox.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 1:30am

189. ErinBrock says:

     Hens….
     Sounds like a great opportunity to make a nice friend!!!!
     Nice friends sometimes lead into something beautiful.
     Don’t burn the wedding dress just yet…..just get to know the old fart!
     He might be needing a landscaper at very least!

     And besides…..can you see the look on your DIL’s face when she finds out your doing her neighbor!!!
     PRICELESS!!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 2:59am

190. Wini says:

     Erin, I just read your Saturday post. I love being by water too. That’s a great idea taking your family and dog walking near the water. I think it takes us a long time to get out among others again because of the severity of our injuries. If we were in traction in a hospital bed, people would visualize our injuries. Because our injuries are not visual, people who haven’t been through what we endured … can’t quit comprehend all of it. They think they know, but unless they go through it, they really don’t grasp the depth of all the levels it hits us on … especially the level of personal safety among others. I think that’s what I detested the most, was loosing that trust in others for simple situations (e.g., being in a bank line just doing my banking). For years after my violation I would look around to see if a Spath was coming in to rob the bank.

     I saw something this past Saturday … at a friend’s picnic. I saw pain on so many men’s faces. Of course, overhearing or personally listening to their stories of divorces (years ago) from former wives who took them for everything and left them high and dry with no reason but simply took off with another man … I said one sentence to them “Oh, don’t blame yourself, you know she doesn’t know what love is and therefore, can’t love”. That was it. I didn’t get into detail and overwhelm them with what we’ve learned on this site. The picnic went on for hours … around 11:00 p.m. some of those men made their way over to me in the kitchen (while helping my friend clean up) … and said to me … you made total sense to me. How in the world did you come up with that fact? I just said, it’s not your fault. Stop blaming yourself for your Ex’s bad behavior.

     Hey, something good had to come out of all this pain. It’s true though, once you go through this type of devastation, there is a certain look on our faces and when you see another who’s endured the same pain, it’s like looking in the mirror. Then we can reach out and help another member of our society of LFers.

     Peace.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 8:32am

191. Rosa says:

     Henry:

     I agree with Erin Brock in that this could be a great business opportunity for you.

     Single, 75, rich, building a new house, AND he likes you.

     This new house is going need some trees, shrubs, and flowers to finish it off, and make it beautiful.

     Give him your business card, and tell him you would love an opportunity to bid on the project.

     Keep it strictly business, though….because it sounds like he’s hot4U.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 11:08am

192. ErinBrock says:

     Hey Rosa….
     Maybe you just gave Hens an idea for his new, shiny Tundra’s licence plates…..
     Hot4U!

     I can see it now hens…….Flaunt it baby!!!

     Like it!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:01pm

193. ErinBrock says:

     Wini:
     Your post made me ponder….
     The guys you met at that party……still pissed off from their (years ago) divorces and the ex taking everything etc….
     WELL……One of those men could have been my ex spath.
     I am sure he is one of the men you ‘met’…..and this is his story…..the story of being victimized by the biatch of an ex, who went crazy and ’stole’ everything , including his kids….she poisened my kids against me yadayada. Everything I worked for I lost to that biatch.

     NOW…..how do we know if these men were the victim OR the PERP.

     I am certain all the folks my spath comes into contact with think he was downtrodden, robbed and destroyed by his biatch ex wife and HE is the victim.

     I am certain he doesn’t share the real facts with them…..like he kept them secret from his attorney……he will maintain victim status to draw folks in.

     IF he was one of those men at your party, the advice you gave them would not be accurate AND provide him another excuse for his list.

     SO……In that situation, I remain silent. Most men I meet who are divorced, dont have anything else to say, but ‘I was robbed’ type stories to tell of their ex……and I know not ALL of them are honest about it…..and i’m thinking very few are telling the real truth……most re-write history to become a victim to suck peeps in to their pity ploy!

     WHY are they still talking about it years later at a party?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:13pm

194. sistersister says:

     Famous last words, from above:

     “Sometimes the first clue that you have a problem with them is when people come up to you and ask how you could possibly be so cruel to them.”

     Ironically, your first clue is when somebody’s telling you there is no clue. That other person is fine!

     I have experienced this so many times, especially in group situations, that I react as with a reflex. Gone in 60 seconds. The whole group loves somebody; the only one she/he has a problem with is ME.

     So there must be a problem with me. Right.

     Talking about “gaslighting.” The whole world says you’re nuts.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 12:39pm

195. OxDrover says:

     Dear Sister,

     AH yes!!!! My P son wrote the trojan horse P that he got along with everyone in the the family, and I didn’t so therefore the problem had to be ME!@!!!!! ha ha ha

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 4:44pm

196. hens says:

     ErinB and Rosa He aint that rich…~!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 4:47pm

197. Buttons says:

     {{{{{HOPEFORJOY}}}}} I wish I could clap my hands and either give you an easy answer, or wish away your situation. But, there IS no easy answer. And, if wishes were fishes, world hunger would not be an issue.

     Your soon-to-be-ex is making you feel guilty. Make a list of what you SHOULD be feeling guilty about. Should you be feeling guilty for any of the following reasons:
     * taking blame to keep the peace
     * tolerating his perversions as “acceptable” to make it “work”
     * enduring emotional neglect
     * enduring the withold/reward tactics
     * carrying the weight of the relationship on your shoulders, alone
     * all of the above
     * none of the above

     “For once he has been trying?” ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? It takes for a threat of divorce for him to finally “TRY?!?!” Oh, the ex spath did the same thing – went to a few marriage counseling sessions, and realized that he couldn’t continue the facade and went back to his patterns with a vengeance.

     Finally listened to you when you told him that you didn’t want him to touch you? FINALLY???? Remember the past – the very recent past, Hope. Recollect the sick, twisted, warped games that he played with you up until the immediate past. How many years? And, now – suddenly – he’s had a personal epiphany? NO…..NO……and, NO he hasn’t. He’s playing “The Game” of keep-away. Let’s keep Hope away from recollecting his past, predictable patterns of behavior, toss out the bone of possibilities, and reel in that gaping fish!

     Hope, at the end, it was surreal. When I moved out into my own place, the ex spath actually helped me move. But, not before he went through my 5-6 boxes of belongings and extracted everything that he had once given me as a gift. “I bought this – it’s mine,” and so forth. Hell, I didn’t even WANT a Waterford crystal mantle clock, EVER, but he purchased it on an account as a gift for me using MY name! Oh, take it back, you jackass! Take all of it – it’s just Things, and I’m saving my soul from you. A fair trade, in my eyes.

     Then, after I had been gone for a couple of months and his first two internet fish had flopped dead on him, he said to me (and, I quote), “Just come back home. Whatever has happened will remain in the past. Just come home.” Remain in the past? My dear god, but he blamed me for generating doctors’ bills when I broke my back, over and over, again. I can remember him clearly screaming at me, “YOUR bills are KILLING us!”

     No, Hope. The soon-to-be-ex is not sad in the way that you or I or OxD or EB or One_step or any other member of this site feels sadness. It’s a ploy. It’s a facade. It’s a 100% fabricated ACT. He’s “acting” sad because that’s what he believes is appropriate. When that doesn’t work, he’ll resort to threats, insults, getting mean.

     Throw that guilt back in his face, Hope. You have NOTHING to feel guilty about. You haven’t failed – you did everything short of selling your own soul to make it work. You are saving your very soul and your daughters’.

     I’ll walk beside you along with everyone else on this site, Hope. But, you have to take those steps on your healing path under your own power. And, the most important steps for you to take are securing your safety and security by getting that Thing out of your home and your life.

     Brightest blessings to you, dear heart. Remember that you are valued, beautiful, and so very, very important to many, many people.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 5:02pm

198. OxDrover says:

     Dear Henry, Well maybe he could still hire you to seed his lawn and put in some shrubs…wouldn’t hurt to give him your business card, who knows, he might break a leg and need some professional help on his place. Doesn’t hurt to make friends any way even if you aren’t “interested” in him. Just set a boundary if he makes a pass and tell him, “Hey, let’s just be friends, okay? I’m not available right now.” He doesn’t know if you have a BF or not.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 5:03pm

Post a Comment

You must be registered user and logged in to post a comment.

«Back to Lovefraud Blog home