What is a sociopath feeling?
PDF Lovefraud recently received the following letter from a reader:
“I am trying to understand what the sociopath is feeling. Do they feel love? Do they love? What hurts a sociopath? How can you communicate with a sociopath?”
The problem in dealing with a sociopath, or psychopath, is that they are fundamentally different from the rest of us. The extent of their difference is truly difficult to comprehend—until you’ve had a close encounter with one of them.
Let’s look at these questions individually.
Do they feel love?
The short answer is no. In order to feel love, a person must be able to feel empathy. Sociopaths do not feel empathy for other people.
Those of us who are capable of empathy may feel joy when a friend or relative has a baby, or want to help disaster victims by sending a donation, or cry at a poignant TV commercial. A sociopath does not have an emotional reaction to any of these scenarios. Whether due to genetic make-up, or a traumatic upbringing, or both, when it comes to feeling emotional connections to other people, sociopaths simply don’t get it.
They do, however, learn that by simulating an emotional reaction, or generating an emotional reaction in another person, they can get what they want. So they fake it. They mouth the words, “I love you.” For good measure, they plead, “I don’t want to lose you,” with tears running down their cheeks.
It is all an act.
A sociopath may be telling you that he or she loves you. What the sociopath really means is that he or she wants you like a hot new Lexus. You can do something for the sociopath—such as provide transportation. You can make the sociopath look good—providing a status symbol or the appearance of normalcy. The only reason a sociopath may be upset if you and the kids leave is because he or she doesn’t want to part with possessions.
What does a sociopath feel?
One of the key symptoms of a sociopath, or psychopath, is shallow emotion. In his book Without Conscience, Dr. Robert Hare writes,
“Psychopaths seem to suffer a kind of emotional poverty that limits the range and depth of their feelings. While at time they appear cold and unemotional, they are prone to dramatic, shallow and short-lived displays of feeling.”
They can feel anger and rage, but it typically doesn’t last very long and has no depth. Many people are mystified by the way in which sociopaths can turn emotions on and off. For example, the Lovefraud reader who asked the questions in the beginning of this post also wrote about his ex-wife:
“We met with a court mediator during our divorce proceedings. After accusing me of the most horrible things you can imagine, once away from the mediator, she broke down and cried hysterically asking, “Why are you doing this to me?” Ten minutes later she was bubbly and acting for the judge.”
One expert, Dr. J. Reid Maloy, wrote that psychopaths often feel “contemptuous delight” when they have successfully deceived someone. He also notes that they frequently feel boredom—which then prompts them to aggressively find stimulation, such as someone new to manipulate.
What hurts a sociopath?
Sociopaths do not experience hurt feelings as the rest of us do. They may pretend to be hurt in order to manipulate you, but again, it is an act.
This is an important concept for anyone trying to break free of a sociopath to understand. If you are breaking off a relationship, there is no reason to be nice. You do not have to try to let the sociopath down slowly or gently. Just say, “It’s over,” and leave. Then maintain a strict policy of No Contact.
You cannot hurt a sociopath’s feelings. He or she doesn’t have any.
How can you communicate with a sociopath?
Understand that a sociopath looks at every interaction with another person as an opportunity for manipulation. Therefore, your best policy with a sociopath is No Contact.
If you must communicate with a sociopath, always be on mental red alert. As Dr. Liane Leedom writes, the cardinal sign of sociopathy is lying. Anything said to you may be a lie, or, at best, a twisting of the truth. Furthermore, anything you say to the sociopath, any information you provide, may be used against you.
Here are some tips for communicating with a sociopath:
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1. Provide as little information as possible.
2. Document everything. Get communications in writing. If you are communicating verbally, have a witness.
3. Do not trust. Verify.
4. Be explicit and lay down the law. If the sociopath violates any terms, there must be consequences.
Implications of no empathy and no fear
Sociopaths do not feel empathy. As Dr. Liane Leedom and other experts have written, they also do not feel fear. Empathy and fear are the basic components of remorse and guilt—so sociopaths don’t feel those emotions, either.
What does all this mean? Sociopaths do not really care about people. They do not feel obliged to comply with society’s rules. They cannot be trusted to “do the right thing.” They have no morals.
That—in all its emptiness—is the true nature of a sociopath.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Ox Drover says:
Dear whyme<
(((((WHYME)))) Oh, my dear, I can so relate to your pleas, of "how long, Lord?"
Remember the storys in Samuel 1 and 2 about David and Saul, and how Saul determined to kill David and God through Jonathan warned David to flee, and David lived in the wilderness for several years.
Now first off, God COULD have kept David safe by having Saul quit trying to kill him, but God didn't do it that way did he? David and to go to the wilderness—and I BELIEVE it was because there was a LESSON FOR DAVID in that wilderness. I too had to FLEE into the "wilderness" and live in my little RV "Cave" and I even named it after the cave in which David lived. I KNOW there was a LESSON for ME in the wilderness….I eventually found it and like David, I was allowed to return to my home.
God Asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. God KNEW ALREADY what Abraham would do, he didn't have to "test" Abraham to know what Abraham would do–so why did God do this, ya think? I THINK it was so ABRAHAM would know how far he would go to obey God. So ABRAHAM would believe and know his own mind, his own strengths. Not so God would know, because God already knew.
Sometimes I think we get these lessons so that WE WILL LEARN how strong we are.
We are told to "pray for those who persecute you" and that's pretty clear on how we are to pray for them. I DID NOT WANT TO DO THIS…any more than Abraham wanted to slay his son. But I knew I needed to obey God's command so I wrote out prayers for them and read those words aloud, and I DID NOT MEAN A WORD OF IT. God knew I didn't mean a word of it, but I SAID those words until it actually HELPED ME TO GET OVER THE WORST OF THE BITTERNESS. "God bless my P son, change his heart. God bless my egg donor and let her see the light, Amen"
Sure what I was wanting to say was "God blast them like you did Sodom, rain down fire and brimstone on their heads, make them burn in hell for ever, amen."
I figure God knew that, but believe it or not, as I kept on saying the words of praying for those that had tried to kill me, the bitterness left me. I still have to work on it, it won't stay gone forever unless I keep an eye on it, and don't let it creep back, but praying for THEM actually resulted in BLESSINGS for me. The blessing of not feeling the bitterness and poison in my own soul.
Sure, I do NOT forget what they do, I do not trust them, or want to be with them, but I am no longer focused on them or the past, but looking toward the future.
And believe me, the bitterness was in my heart to the point that I lay awake nights trying to figure out how to kill them and get away with it. I don't ever want to feel that bitter, that violent, that negative that wrathful again. It is an UGLY FEELING. I'm glad it is gone.
I WILL protect myself even if it meant killing them if they attacked, but I will not let myself be eaten up with the desire to kill them, the desire to take revenge. I will leave the revenge to a just God, and personally, I cant think what could be worse for them than to fall into the hands of a God of Justice!
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breathless says:
WhyMe, I totally understand the struggles you are having with the whole forgiveness thing, but please understand that the foorgiveness is for you, not him. It enables you to have peace. It has taken me almost 4 months to get to the peace that I am at now. What got me here? God and this site. My S married his former victim while engaged to me and he is out on a bond that I paid for and is being represented by an attorney that I paid for. For a long time I questioned whether he would be better to his wife than he was to me, but coming to this site reassurred me that he won’t and that he is suffering from a mental and personality illness. It was then that I had no choice but to forgive him for all he’d done and allow God to deal with him in His own time and sweetie this is the happiest that I’ve been since that horrible person left my life. Trust me when I say that although there is no cure for their character, they will still have to answer to God for what they’ve done to all of us and I know that while you hurt that offers no comfort to you, but what I had to realize was that being upset was only holding me back and it did nothing to him. His life is going on and although he’s out preying on his wife and other women, he is happy while I was sitting here hurt, upset, and angry, waiting to hear that something bad happened to him. Waiting for God to punish them will not come while you wait for it to happen, it will come when you least expect it and most likely at a time when you’ve healed and moved on. Again I understand what you are going through, but if God has allowed to me to get this far then He will do the same for you and I will make sure that I keep you in my prayers. Try to look at the blessing in it all. This person is out of your life and as long as you keep it that way, they can’t hurt you anymore. Please believe that he will get what is coming to him. Like my former S, yours is probably walking around her with a cocky attitude because he’s conned yet another person without any consequences and feels untouchable, but when they least expect it, what I like to call the “boom” moment will happen and that karma will catch up with them. God can correct others far better than we can. So hang in there Ladybug, it will get better:)
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breathless says:
OxDrover, it is so funny that you mentioned our situations with our S’s as lessons to test our strength. This morning that same thing came across me while in church. I believe that there is a lesson in everything and my experience with my S has made me stronger, wiser, and improved my self love and worth. One thing that was hard for me in the beginning in praying for my former S was that I didn’t want my prayer to keep God from punishing him. Because I struggled with my prayers for him and his union to his wife, I learned to pray that God’s will be done in their life. As much as I despise that woman, I pray that God removes her from that situation before he hurts her worse than he did three years ago and I pray that justice is served when he goes to trial in January. I feel like I’m rambling because I’ve learned so much about these men and it is so hard to walk with a Christian’s heart where they’re concerned after they’ve robbed us of so much, but you have to do it to gain peace. I am happy that he got married because had he not, we’d still be together and I’d be his victim which is a blessing and our lives are worth so much more than the things of monetary value those men took from us. They can be replaced, but we only have one life so it’s important to get whatever help necessary to get through the emotional state these evil men left us in.
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hens says:
Forgiving ourselves is the big thing. I forgive myself for volunteering to be his doormat. I forgive myself for wanting to believe his lies. I forgive myself for being so kind to a predator. I forgive myself for not knowing what was going on. I forgive myself for wanting him to be something he could not be. I do not forgive him, I just except what he is.
There is no closure for such a huge life lesson, it’s a life lesson I needed to learn. I make peace with the truth and that is the closest thing to closure I will get. Think of no contact as your only weapon against them and it will be your ultimate salvation..
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trueloveistrue says:
Hi Guys,
I,too,am going through alot of yuck thoughts and feelings.
Still I think of the saying,”Don’t become a monster,while fighting monsters.”
And it applies to me.
I feel like the anger from what he did could cause earthquakes,and mountains to shatter..
The sadness and the pain I felt from the whole experience,absolutely pisses me off to no end.
But my obsession with him,and ” his ways” does not seem to help ME.
I think it only gives HIM more power,even though he has no idea,nor would he care what I am going through.
Its about my journey to safety,and self control.
I don’t think that any of the people I hear post on this forum are shrinking violets.
I,for one,AM NOT..
Most of the people I read on here seem to be,nothing less than fierce,
powerful,and strong women..and men. ; )
I like to fight for what is right,and when I’ve been wronged,
restraint of pen and tongue is Not my strong point..
I do think,however,I am indulging myself(vicariously also indulging Him,even though he is unaware/careless of my struggles),
by continuing to obsess on the,”Why did this happen to me?”,question.
I dont want to be a victim,though I may be in every sense of the word where he is concerned..
THAT makes me angry,too..
I have stuck to No Contact,Religiously,and have No plans to break it.
(So,he is Not in my picture Anymore..So why in my head?)
I,also,have moved to a new town,so as to move on with my life,as well as Not have to run into the looser…
I want to take great measures to Keep the Focus on ME..
It IS hard..
SO tonight I will make a list of What I Want My Life To Look like from this point on,and go after THAT..
(Just an idea.)
No..I will never trust him,ever,again.
No,I do not want him back.
No,I don’t condone who he is,or how he operates,but I do need to give up Hating him and gain back some sense of control over my own life..
One of my fears though,is that he has been cyberstalking me,and may possibly be reading the things I write.On here as well…
(Can one do that with an IP address?..It wouldnt be too difficult for him to have mine,since we shared internet when we lived together..)
Maybe it is an absurd idea,but when I read one of the recent posts on here,I was curious as of its nature,and it sounded like a spath to me..
Someone,who may have been upset and confused..
I suppose after feeling violated and an exposed feeling of vulnerability,it is natural to be untrusting to a degree..
I just don’t want to stay stuck that way…
Thanks for letting me vent.
I keep coming back to this forum,because it does help to vent.
I am still searching for more concrete ideas on how to absolve the
betrayal altogether though..
It still seems like a rollercoaster ride to me..
Therefore…”Forgiveness”…
It is my aim,and if I can Do it Thoroughly,
I believe it is my pathway to Freedom from the spath,and my own
relentless anger..
Truelove
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soimnotthecrazee1 says:
Oxy as usual great post!
Broken,
I had the same decision to make do you go home or stay? I can tell from my experience, going home was the only option. I came home, it didn’t make the pain or memeories go away but I was HOME. I got my old job back and tried to regain my old life back. You need to be where you have support, understanding and familiarty. If the onll reason to stay there is because of him..PACK THE CAR NOW AND GO HOME!!!!!!!! What or who would keep you from leaving? It’s hard I know. We are what I read on here “shell shocked”! We feel so violated from being deceived and want so much what the spath appeared to be as long as he had his mask on. We deserve that BUT not from the spath, a true honest, caring normal human being and the only way to heal is to have NO CONTACT an GO!! It’s so hard to hear that! Go to your safe place and start healing!
Hugs!
Not crazee
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Breathless,
Believe me, if I had done something bad, I would rather that another human judged me than a righteous and just God judged me. “Vengence is mine saith the Lord” and “I will repay.” I believe that with all my heart, and I also believe that God will forgive our sins the same way WE forgive the sins of others, “forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” and so I think it is important that we do FORGIVE, and get the bitterness out of our heart toward them. We have sinned, they have sinned. So we are not “perfect” either—BUT we must be willing that God forgive them like he does us, but remember that God only forgives us if we repent of our sins and do our best to make it right. So That is GOD’s kind of forgiveness. If they never repent, then God isn’t going to absolve them of the sin.
We don’t have to worry about how God will handle them, all we have to do is to concern ourselves with doing what is RIGHT ourselves. We are not their judges, GOD is. They are not our judges, GOD is.
If WE do what is right, then we don’t have to worry about the end result. If They do wrong, we don’t have to worry about the end result there either. They will get what is coming to them on this side of death or the other is my belief.
So, that being the case, I don’t have to worry about WHAT the punishment is or when it is delivered or how, I just have to let that worry go and know that God is in charge of the Universe and HE is JUST.
You know it is odd, but since I quit trying to run the universe and micromanage God and tell Him what he should do and when, it has run just fine! LOL I just have to trust that “all things work together for good to those that love the Lord.” Notice it says ALL THINGS, even the things that we think are “bad” at the moment may and usually do in the LONG RUN turn out to have been a BLESSING even though at the time we thought it was terrible.
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bluejay says:
trueloveistrue,
This whole experience has further changed me, deepening me (and for what reason, I don’t know). I too do not condone how the h-spath conducts himself, coming to the conclusion that spaths act according to how they’re programmed. Like you, “restraint of tongue” is not my strong suit, being willing to rip into my persecutors. There’s a lot that I’m still learning in how to operate in relation to people who have wronged me. Don’t you just get tired of the emotions that are stirred up – yeh, the spath is a low-life, having done some unbelievable, despicable things, wanting to get beyond the hatred of him, also the desire for payback, having him pay for his mistreatment of me.
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skylar says:
Blue jay
“Restraint of tongue”
I’m going to remember that phrase. Because I also have that difficulty.
Being one who thoroughly enjoys using my sharp tongue as a weapon has not endeared me to all the narcissists in my life. And really what do we get when we verbally annihilate someone? Nothing but an ego satisfaction. In the book, the art of selfishness, the author speaks about letting go of ego satisfaction in order to make good decisions.
It’s a great book about Learning to do what’s right for you and not being a doormat. it’s a very old book written in the early part of the 20th century.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Sky and Bluejay,
The Bible says that “restraint of the tongue” as you said above is the hardest thing is the world. It is the smallest member but the hardest to control.
Bridling my tongue is not my strong suit either, but I am working on that as well. When I get angry my tongue is loose at both ends, and that is NOT a good way to be for several reasons. Especially if you are interacting with a psychopath because if you run off at the mouth, you warn them about your thoughts and intentions.
It is better to be, like ErinBrock says, more like a quiet snake, and strike without forewarning them of your intentions.
I would have been way better off if I had not warned my P son that I intended to fight his parole. Even though he doesn’t know for sure, he KNOWS, I AM sure…because I have never been one to make “idle threats” and he knows it. But I have forewarned him and that was a MISTAKE.
And yes, Blue, I get TIRED of the drama! Stopping my own mouth from running away, or even trying to defend myself against them, has been a challenge…and one I have not always “won.” But I’m working on it as part of my “lifestyle change” LOL
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skylar says:
Why me
you’e feeling what we all felt when we first realized we had stepped on a landmine. your name clearly describes how you feel: why me lord?
Read the book of job In the bible. you will feel better and you will realize that God was there with you the entire time holding your hand while you learned what you needed to learn. God knows the future And he knows why you needed this vaccination. if the present is any indicator of the future we are all going to need the lessons learned about sociopathy. Because they are everywhere.
Please change your name from why me to vaccinated or something else which reflects your newfound knowledge and protection.
I’m worried if you keep asking yourself why me over and over and you identify yourself with that name you will get stuck there.
We’re all in this together, don’t feel alone.
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hens says:
I dont think vaccinated would be a good name change, but I agree with sky, dont get stuck with why me, maybe whynot me? When I came here I talked about wanting closure for about a year, people got sick of me saying I want closure, actually (I) am the reason Oxy got her skillet, I was the first to be boinked on LF. Closure doent happen like an on off switch, as much as we want to be done with the analyzing the crap out of them and obsessing about them it is in the end more about us then them..nobody want’s to believe that tho, I sure didnt….hey they aint the only fish in the sea, we just need to learn how to swim in a pool of sharks..
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trueloveistrue says:
@Bluejay-
I feel your pain,Sister!
And yes,it has been a whirlwind of emotions for me too.
I don’t really Want him to Pay,as much as I want me NOT to Pay..
In other words..
I think that if I can truly “move on”,and save myself from continuing to hold onto this resentment(justified or not),
then I Will Be Free.
Who cares about Him being Free.
That is beyond my control..
The spaths ARE ill.(And from what I read on here,do Not recover).
Still,Mental illness is exactly THAT..An Illness.
I don’t believe that it is for me to Judge,or for me to get too focused on ways in which GOD
will set the record straight..
Even those thoughts,for me,are dangerous.
In which ways will I decide to harbor or release “my illness” of deep resentment?
Im just as sick,when I choose to cling to those thoughts.
They keep me in bondage(or bonded),to my emotional captor,
(the spath)
More than that,those thoughts allow them to win.
There We are wasting Our precious time mentally obsessing over THEM.
One more win for the spaths again.
Do you think they are busying up their days thinking about us?
I seriously doubt it..
It only means he gets his way over and over..
(Free rent in your head)
I have learned from this experience,and the articles I’ve read on this website,to realize that it IS an ILLNESS.
I Don’t have to stay ill with them,though..
(Maybe it is an oppurtunity for me to be grateful,that it is Him,and Not Me,who has this Sociopathic Dis-ease..For I am lucky and Blessed enough to Know,and feel what it Is like to Love and Share my love with another person.THAT is a huge blessing for me.And sad for him,though I don’t ,and will Never have the power to change it.)
Still,because I am becoming aware now, that it IS an illness that they have,(S/P/and/or N),
it would be beyond irresponsible for me to continue allowing them to be in my life the way they once were.(Or in my case,to allow him in at all).
So here’s to NC,and having a positive place to come vent and talk about these issues that are so completely taboo,and misunderstood,by the majority of society,or anyone for that matter who does not have first hand experience with a spath.
Yay for the support here,as together we get to walk through the whole gamet of emotions,and continue to recover Ourselves,back from the depths of Hell..(In a safe and encouraging enviroment)
Resist,resist,resist,the urge to Contact,resist the urge to seek Revenge,and resist the urge to persecute these ill souls..
It was mentioned earlier..A Resentment is like drinking the poison,and waiting for them to die..
We hurt ourselves,and I dont know about you,but I’ve been hurt enough already.
I like to think of this process, as a diet:
You’re on a diet,but you love chocolate cake..
You will probably desire it from time to time,(especially when you are focused on how good it tasted Before),but as you stay true to your diet plan,and refuse to eat the cake(NC),you will strengthen your resolve that much more(Become free from the spaths “hold” on you).You may always like chocolate cake,but while you’re trying to get fit,it goes against everything you are working for.
If you are struggling,get out some photos of yourself pre-diet(as an analogy of the bad memories with spath)..
Then maybe a photo of the healthy body you are trying to achieve..
(what your life can look like once you are willing to dream again)
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one_step_at_a_time says:
truelove – to follow up on your diet analogy: in overeaters anonymous there is a saying, ‘nothing tastes as good as abstinence.’ Think it applies here. Perhaps we can change it to, ‘love nothing like you love your freedom’ or ????
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Ox Drover says:
Dear truelove,
If I may poke my 2 cents worth in, psycopathy/sociopathy is not truly thought of as a mental illness, but a DISORDER which is different, and it is by CHOICE as much as DNA that these people have this disorder. Just as a person who is an alcoholic may have some DNA that makes him more suceptible to alcohol, he has a CHOICE to drink or not. Psychopaths are not without CHOICE in the way they behave. They DO know right from wrong. They are RESPONSIBLE for their behavior morally and BY LAW.
Your diet analogy is a good one too, and we need to realize though that making good choices in food or companionship all takes a healthy effort to pick healthy choices for a life time not just a short time.
Glad you are here true and making some better choices.
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Ox Drover says:
Darlink Henry,
But you know those were only LOVE TAPS with the skillet! You will always be my brother! Just can’t let ANYone talk bad about you and that includes YOU!!!! ((((hugs))))
The leaves are about to turn and flap here for the last time pretty quick so time to put my redneck storm winders on the house and batten down the hatches fer the winter.
Are you feeling better? Give old Harley a hug from his Auntie “Twisted Sister!” (((hug))))
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WhyMe says:
Thanks, everyone—Oxy, Hens, TrueLove, Sky, BlueJ, & Breathless (did I remember every one?)….
for your encouragement & wisdom & even your scolding about my name…..maybe I should change it, but I don’t think I’ve gotten to that place yet.
I’m wondering, Oxy, how long it took for you to start praying for/instead of against the perpetrators. My mother & I had a, euphemistically speaking, “stormy relationship” for most of my life. When I was in my mid-40s, I started trying to forgive her, but couldn’t bring myself to do it. As I was in my intensely spiritual stage then (after an NDE), I started visualizing her in a pool of white light. It was SO HARD TO DO!! I wasn’t diligent about it because it was so difficult, but I tried to do it as often as possible. Still, it was 10 yrs after that when we finally made peace. And grew close for the first time in my life….for only 5 short years until she died. It broke my heart that I lost her so shortly after I’d finally found her.
I wish I’d been able to feel that peace about her much earlier in my life. To feel that peace Within Myself when I thot of her. My evil (sociopathic) cousin had Mother’s will changed the year before she died & it took us over a year & nearly $500,000 to get what was left of the estate back from her. I liked to envision her in a fiery car crash. It never happened. But it did keep a sharp thorn in my soul for a long time….I never did forgive her, but the thorn did finally just erode.
I don’t want to have to feel this pain I’m feeling now for 5 more months, much less 5-10 yrs. There’ll be nothing left of ME if I don’t find a way to let it go.
I understand the need to RESIST, not just actual Contact, but emotional contact! I have no way to actually contact him, but I do go thru the daily ritual of checking a couple of pages that might give me a clue as to what’s going on with him!! WHY??!! Just to feel the knife twist? I’m caught up in this relationship with My Pain….it’s become too much of an evil friend to me….maybe it’s like what people feel when they cut themselves…..maybe it’s something that makes me feel something other than the dull depression….maybe it’s something that makes me feel connected to him…..I know it doesn’t help me accept the fact that he’s gone & that part of my life & my future is gone!
Well, like I said on another thread, it’s been a couple of brutal crying-all-day days for me. Thank goodness I have to get up & get dressed & get to my therapist appointment right now. And, as always, thank God for all of you, my friends, here at LF. I can’t imagine where I’d be now if I hadn’t found you all. As Hens said, forgiving yourself is essential……I still haven’t found forgiveness for myself, & can’t imagine how I’ll ever find that, but talking & listening to all of you has helped me…..I still can’t put his words out of my mind—-all the condemnation he heaped on me after he left….but you all have taught me one very important word: gaslighting. Now if I can only get that one thru my head!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Whyme,
You are doing good things for yourself, going to therapy is a great start.
ON the “going to a few pages” part, STOP THAT NOW!!!!! That is breakin NC, and it is just making the knife twist!!! Don’t make me get the big cyber cast iron skillet out and boink you on the head with it!!! LOL
\
Seriously, make that one of the things that is “bad for you” that you STOP doing! You CAN do it. Set your mind to stopping this, and the desire to do it will decrease over time.
As for your question about praying for my egg donor, not sure just when, but sometime that summer and the year after I made myself do it, just say the words, but I did NOT mean them, and I knew that God knew I did not mean them, but that I was trying. It helps give me a measure of closure and peace.
I know there is never going to be a reconciliation between me and my egg donor, there isn’t anything to reconcile, there never was a loving relationship between her and me. I think she was jealous that I was the “child of her parents’ old age” (we lived with her parents after she divorced the sperm donor until she remarried when I was 3, nearly 4) But there is no reconciliation there possible, she is too narcissistic and controlling. She doesn’t fit the profile of a psychopath, but she has these traits and isn’t going to let go of them, and feels the need to punish me since she can’t control me. I’m done being the whip-ee, and I’m done being the whip-er. I just want peace and I can’t have a peaceful relationship with her. I wish I could have, but I realize I can’t have so I have to accept that. I have to be my own “mother” since she wasn’t.
I no longer listen to or hear the hateful words she or any of the other psychopaths have said dance through my brain, because I know they were and are NOT TRUE.
I can AFFIRM myself, my own worth, my own opinion of me. I don’t let their hateful dismissive words pierce my soul! Exorcise them out like the UGLY “ghost of Christmas past”
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bluejay says:
Dear WhyMe,
Just a suggestion (although Oxy’s is spot-on) – be honest with God, telling Him that you really don’t want to forgive “your enemies,” but because you know it’s the right thing to do (benefitting you in the long run), you’ll do it, going along with what Jesus taught us about forgiving our enemies (putting it into practice is the key). I thought to myself this afternoon, I am finished with maintaining any sort of dysfunction within myself, having regrets over a ton of things. I want to do better, being healthy for myself and my family, having carried enough drama out in my life. Maybe, I’m crossing over into the acceptance phase of this disorder. There is no way on God’s green earth that I can fix what ails the h-spath, “casting the whole mess into God’s care (hands).”
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WhyMe says:
Well, Oxy, someone has to knock some sense into me, & it might’s well be you! I can’t seem to do it for myself. I can go a day or 2 without trying to find out what he’s doing, but then my evil friend Pain goads me into doing it.
Bluejay, you’re right about needing to be honest with God. I did that this afternoon when I lit my prayer candles…..I just had to say, “Abba! Forgive my unforgiveness until I can find a way to forgive, & help me to find the way to forgiveness for both him & me…..& help me find my way back into the Light of Life & Love & Laughter.” My constant prayer is that God will show me a way to go in every area of my life.
Oh!Just as I wrote that I looked out the window, & I’m just watching the most beautiful thing: 2 young deer standing in my yard nestled together & grooming each other. Now there’s a beautiful sign, & it seems to have something to do with loving & caring for each other…reaching the places we can’t reach ourselves. Okay. I’m going to have to hold that picture in my heart tonight….maybe that’s an answer for me….I know we help each other reach hard places here at LF….but also, you know….I have these 2 natal charts laying here on my desk that I’m sposed to be working on, but haven’t been able to concentrate on the past few days…those people are waiting for me to give them answers they haven’t been able to find themselves…..maybe I’d best get busy doing the things I know how to do…….& stop my weeping & moaning about things I wanted to do, but didn’t get to do….hmmmm….
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Ox Drover says:
DearWhyme,
A couple of years ago in the spring or fall I don’t remember which, I saw some wild flowers out my bedroom window…and I watched those tiny blooms when everything else was brown…and they gave me hope and like that story about the “last leaf on the wall” (OK KIM Who wrote it? O Henry?) Anyway, sometimes we can see an answer from God just looking out our window!
Keep up your faith, and remember the man who asked Jesus to heal his son from a devil ? Jesus said to himm “Do you believe?” and the man said “Yes, Lord I believe. Help my UN-belief.”
I have hung on to that prayer, just as you prayed “forgive my unforgiveness” I also prayed “Help my unbelief” and that is all we can do.
There are so many things about you that I know are STRONG, that though you feel weak, you feel that you can’t do it, YOU CAN! Pull on that strength….believe in it!!! God won’t put more on us than we can stand, he will either lighten the load or strengthen us to carry it! So keep that in mind!!! (((hugs))) and prayers!
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Findingmyself says:
I had posted a couple days ago on a thread (I don’t remember which topic it was), about how my ex had contacted me via email regarding his therapy. Since I left him and started therapy and my therapist said he was N/P personality, he decided to start therapy himself. I think more to prove me wrong and also to make it “look good”-that’s just my opinion. He is in his mid-50′s, I dated him for almost 4 years. Early on in the relationship he started his lies. He was with other women, and of course lies to cover those times up. Lies on top of lies, cheating, sucking me back in just to repeat it all over again. Of course, I was the ‘love of his life”, he “couldn’t imagine me not in his life”, he “loved me like no other”, etc.
Anyway, I never responded to his email regarding how his therapist said that “anyone can change”, that she was “giving him hope that we could work things out”. I was so angry! He has only been going over the past couple of months. For her to claim those things to him really pissed me off. Does she even know what she is dealing with here, yet?
I just received a call from my ex while he was in his therapy session and wanted to know if I could take a minute to talk with her. I agreed to speak with her. A side note here, the call came in unavailable and that’s why I initially answered it. So this therapist starts talking to me about the things they are working on in therapy. She tells me that he is not a Sociopath, he only met 2 of the 7 criteria but he did have a lot of N traits. Yea, ok…”what do you want from me?”. She stated that he wanted her to confirm that he was indeed in therapy, which obviously I got that and that the first step of “change” was at least getting help. And he wanted to and seemed willing to work towards being a better person. She asked me what my concerns were and what it would take me to give him another chance. I laughed. I said for the past almost 4 years this man has lied to me, out of the gate, had other women, lied to me to cover up those other women, turned things back on me when my gut new something was wrong, ie-pther women, and told me it was my insecurities. I had walked away many times only for him to promise me things that never came to pass. Only to continue the lies and the women non-stop. She then said to me “so it sounds like its a trust issue as far as your concerned?”…WTF? Trust issue? That’s an understatement! I am trying to pick up the pieces of what he did to me emotionally. It has taken me many months to where I am starting to feel normal again, like myself. And that’s because I have had no contact with him. She then starts talking with him while I am still on the phone and says to him, it sounds like we need to discuss why you felt the need to protect her in regards to these other women and protect yourself and yet you only ended causing much harm to her and the relationship you had. Is this women for real?! “Protect?!?!”-let’s call it what it is “LIES!”. Is that a typical response to give after the things I told her he did. I am completely beside myself, angry (for the first time in a long time), I almost feel like what I told this woman meant nothing in regards to what he did. Granted it was a 5 minute conversation, but still! Is it me, or is this bull shit therapy?! I need some clarification here please!
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WhyMe says:
Perfect, Oxy.
“Yes, I believe, Lord. Help my unbelief.” This is the thing I struggle with all day every day. This constant war of saying, “God, just let me die.” Then, “No, God, I don’t want to just die. I want to live the wonderful life I have faith you have ahead for me.” Then, “It’s never going to get any better.” And then, “It IS good, God! Thank you for all that you have already given me, & for all that I have, & the people I love & who love me.” And then, “Why did you let him do this to me? I want him to suffer as I’ve suffered.” And then, “Help me to find a way to forgive & forgive my unforgiveness.”
The scripture that you just cited will help me with my unforgiveness & unbelief!
Thank you, BlueJ for reminding me that I’m not carrying this alone & don’t have to! Thank you, Oxy, for believing in me & reminding me that I need to believe in myself. And believe, without doubting in my heart, that God WILL lead me thru this if I’ll only allow Him to do it!
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hens says:
Findingmyself – There is something really wrong with a therapist that will call a client’s X and try to negotiate a deal, that seems very off too me.. I think your right that is Bull Shit……Can you change your phone number’s to unlisted?
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Whyme,
I’m glad that you are going through this up and down, belief and un-belief, and being aware of what is going on. It is when we do the roller coaster (and that is NORMAL) and don’t realize what is going on that we get crazy.
Google Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and her theory of grief processing. I can’t remember if I suggested this to you before or not, but it will give you some idea of the up and down emotional roller coaster you will be riding on…just understanding which “stage” you are in will give you some validation that you are not crazy and that what you are experiencing is “normal” response to being involved in a betrayal and a LOSS. Even though what you lost was a piece of chit, you THOUGHT you had a relationship, so you are losing your security of what you thought was REAL and it is as real as it gets. LOSS is LOSS whether what you lost is really “big or small” it is TOTAL loss.
You are stronger than you know, and you are NOT alone in all this…keep reading the articles in the archive as well, read every one on every subject, by every author, if they don’t relate to you at this moment, they WILL! (((Hugs))) Knowledge is power! God bless you and help you in your unbelief! (((hugs)))
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WhyMe says:
Thanks, always & always, Oxy, for all your wisdom & encouragement. I do know Kubler-Ross’s stages of grief, but this just seems to be so interminable. I had to study *grief* very thoroughly when my son died in 1995 at 32….he fell only 10ft, broke his neck, & immediately flew away….having lived fearlessly, & hell-bent for leather all his life, this short fall to his death was so ironic that we could only think of it as some sort of soul choice. He had also lived in a lot of existential angst, & never felt totally comfortable on the planet, so maybe he’d just done what he intended to do & went on HOME.
Anyhow, I had to come to understand what I was going thru in grieving him. Of course there’d been deaths in my family prior to his, but nothing like the death of a son in the prime of his life, so I had to find a way to navigate the grief process. I also pored over our family charts & their progressions, trying to find the cosmic wisdom in his death. I was able to find a lot of comfort in seeing that.
It might seem like a horrible thing to say, but losing my son was much easier to get past than this has been! As much of a loss as it was, it eventually made some sense somehow, & it didn’t take as long as this has taken! I haven’t yet been able to make sense out of what Jamie did to me, & it’s going on 6 months now! I could see myself going thru the various grief stages after my son’s death, but I’m all over the place in this mess! I can’t seem to get to ACCEPTANCE, & every time I try to get there, I end up bouncing back thru all the other stages again. Kind of like playing Parcheesi (remember that??!!), & just when you’d think you were almost Home, you’d throw a 12 & get thrown back that many paces!!
Well, thanks for listening. I can’t seem to get to acceptance, but talking about it does help.
FindingMyself,
lissen, of course I don’t know, but you did say that the caller’s name & number came up “unavailable”—-how do you know it was even a therapist? Did she identify herself by name? And, if she did, did you check to see if she’s listed as a therapist? At this point in time, there’s no amount of subterfuge I’d put past a sociopath! Their machinations might not make a lick of sense to us, but they act on their urges—-& I know from my own SP experience (& it pisses me the F off!) that he got such great pleasure, such an immense thrill (in addition to all the other benefits of cheating with a younger, wealthy woman!) from Getting Away With His Deceit & Risky Behavior! I might be way off base here, but that was my immediate first thot after reading your post!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Whyme,
I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your son, That must have been horrible for you. I DO understand though that it may have been easier to accept than what Jamie did to you, because what jamie did is so senseless and mean. Your son didn’t fall and die to be mean, chit just happens. My husband didn’t “mean” to die either, but chit happens.
The BETRAYAL part of the injury that the psychopaths do to us hurts us so much and wounds so deeply that it is soul piercing.
Getting to acceptance and STAYING there takes a while and I know six months seems like “forever” when you are hurting, but unfortunately I’ve been at this much longer and still find myself losing acceptance sometimes and sliding backwards. Just keep your eye on the top of the mountain and keep climbing. (((hugs))))
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WhyMe says:
Huge ((((HUGS)))) back to you, Oxy.
I’m gonna keep trying to climb.
I was in such despair this afternoon, thinking about what a lovely life he & his new GodlyWife & his kids are having in the place I TOOK THEM TO where I WANTED TO LIVE……I was driving back from town, just in tears…..I was gonna call my BFF cousin & weep & wail, but when I got back here, I saw those charts laying on my desk, & I knew I HAD to get to work on them. So I did.
Two hours later, having done what I thot I couldn’t do (concentrate on my work), I suddenly realized that— in getting out of my own misery & reaching out to reach those places that someone else couldn’t reach—I wasn’t on the verge of tears anymore. There I have it. Just have to do it More of the time, if not All of the time!
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it'sjustme says:
Thank you all for all of your help.
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akitameg says:
just read the article.
then how come they know exactly what to say and at what moment to hold your hand and kiss it????
it is as if they are psychic? Really makes me confirm the existence of evil.
Why was he talking love and marriage and a baby b4 I get any older if he does not feel love himself?
This makes no sense to me. I do not have money like his other victims.
Yes– I model and act and for 41 I am kind of attractive. but he is gorgeous and could get sex anywhere?
How do they know how to show?? love?
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Ox Drover says:
Akita, they do it the same way a dog learns to sit up, beg, “pray,” speak, roll over etc. they observe and they get rewarded when they do these ‘tricks” if they say “I love you” then you RESPOND positively so they know that SAYING these words gets them a positive response (ego stroking, money, sex, or whatever their goal is, actually sometimes they have motives that we wouldn’t even see as a “motive” that’s what makes it so hard ot understand what the heck it is that they get. Some guys just like to woo a woman til they get in her pants ONCE and then move on to the next one. It is a one time conquest that is their “motive’ my x BF was having a HAREM of FWBs scattered around that he had available + he had a “respectable” wife to keep the home fires burning and keep him looking “respectable” with this wife who was a model of respectability. When his respectable wife caught him in bed LITERALLY with a FWB in his own town (he used to be careful and keep them far enough away that she couldn’t catch him, but after 32 years of suspecting, she CAUGHT him and booted him) then he had to have another “respectable” wife. He had enough money but he wanted that “position” and when he would go out wiht me in my community and people knew me, he KEPT COMMENTING ON “Wow, so many people know and respect you” it didn’t make sense to me at the time he said it, but he kept on saying it and it was one of those “WTF? bucket” things, but later, I SAW exactly what it meant. It meant that “you will meet my needs for a respectable wife, but I have NO intention of giving up my Harem of FWBs.”
Thank God I caught on before I married him. I would have been hurt worse.
I talked to his X wife afterward and she said to me, ,”Ive gone a year wihtout once having to say “i’m sorry” for something I didn’t do.”
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lesson learned says:
EXCELLENT ARTICLE!!
VERY SIMPLISTICALLY WRITTEN BUT VERY POWERFUL!!!
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jlarue says:
So very true. That is the best description I have ever read.
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dancingnancies says:
On the topic of forgiveness ( i know this is a bit belated to respond ) I don’t worry about forgiveness regarding the Spath. Forgiveness to me is for those that genuinely deserve it. Would you forgive a shark for attacking you? Would you forgive a snake for biting you? A car for hitting you? Why is it even relevant?
And i always like to refer to Kathy Krajco’s post on Healing & Forgiveness… I think it’s important to read for others : http://narc-attack.blogspot.co.....eness.html
An Excerpt :
“(…)forgiveness is for the repentant. To hand it out to the unrepentant is like going up to your neighbor on trash-collection day and saying, “Here, I’ll trade you this 12-carrot diamond ring for that little baggie of doggie-do.”
It makes a mockery of something sacred and precious.”
( I’d post more of it but you’d really need to read the whole thing to get her argument/idea… it’s a good read.)
All in all, forgiving the spath is unnecessary, and to me : offensive. I understand where others are coming from and respect their desire to forgive the P for their own personal reasons… but giving the situation to God and forgiving the P are two different things. I forgive NORMAL PEOPLE. I don’t forgive an Spath to whom “Sorry” only means “Here i’ll say this so you can trust me again, which gives me free reign to abuse you once more”… Forgiveness IS sacred.. i agree with Krajco’s sentiments when she says forgiving an spath is making a mockery of something precious. I don’t need to give away my anger.. I’ve given it away enough times only to get myself even deeper into the mess again. My anger is my friend. It won’t be there forever to the degree it once was, and my resentment- all of those things will pass too.. but they are there with reason and I give them the right to be felt, so they too can pass. And have, and it has worked wonderfully. That’s all there is to it.
I am not hurting anyone by not forgiving. I am being in tune with my own voice by not worrying about forgiveness with an Spath. I don’t even think about associating forgiveness with an Spath. Nor do i think anyone else should feel pressured or compelled to forgive.. the dynamic of forgiveness works with normal people- because forgiveness works within the CONTEXT of a relationship. Forgiveness does not work within the context of a predator-prey interaction, let me be absolutely clear on that fact.
Do gazelles forgive lions for trying to prey on them? No they learn to avoid lions as much as possible, so they won’t get attacked again. I think in that respect, we have much to learn from animals. Does it even make sense for a gazelle to forgive a lion for attempting to prey on them? They’re obviously going to prey again if exposed- it just seems like a silly construct.
( On the post i linked, someone in the comments section remarked on something quite important… so i thought i’d quote it :
“There is such a thing as righteous anger. Jesus had it against the money changers. Do you think he would have forgiven them had they come back the next day and set up shop while smearing Jesus’s name over and over in the most shocking manner or would he have talked about the evil of their behavior even further?” ~ Anonymous @ Narc-attack )
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skylar says:
Hmmm
Nancy
I agree with everything you said right up until the last part. Because jesus forgave his murderers even as he was dying. So I don’t think the money changers were necessairly unforgiven.
But we are not jesus and there are stages that we need to go thru including anger.
I am starting to realize that my inability to have anger has hurt me more Because it has left me paralyzed. Perhaps I need to go backwards to the stage of anger so I can experience it and let it go.
And I’m not talking about Anger towards my exP. I’m talking about my parents.
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akitameg says:
Hi guys. I am alive and well.. worked all day today and yesterday and can’t email there.
listen–
the other day-my freak out session was a flashback/projection of what happened to me before!!!
I even over reacted a great deal and read into things that were not there.
We have to be careful of this. It was horrible and I was a mess at work.
My gosh– what once being with a p can do to someone.
I soooo appreciate ya’ll being there for me during my “crisis”.
Happy New Year to all of you.
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flowerpower says:
Nancy,
I used to be where u are on forgiveness. This helped me: Forgiveness is for YOU. not him. We forgive so we can move on and not hold bitterness.
Anger is good; we should have anger when wronged. But we dont wont to “get stuck” in anger or we become bitter, ornery old women with nasty facial scowl lines (my sense of humor) but true!
Forgiveness does not mean RECONCILIATION which only comes when the other party is repentant and remorseful first. And then EARNS trust back through actions consitent with a repentant heart.
Jesus said “forgive them for they know not what they do” because the lost dont know what they do….that is why they are lost.
Forgiveness doesnt mean we keep going back for more mistreatment and abuse. But, it means we let go of the hurt and see that THEY are really tragic figures in need of help.
We cant provide the help…only God can. AND they have to want it. If they dont want His help, He can take care of that too.
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skylar says:
very nicely said flower.
Only God can help them, we can’t.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi Flowerpower – i like your name so much.
i am looking for a way to move on, other than forgiveness, even without broaching reconciliation, forgiveness puts the spath into the category of someone worth the very compassion she manipulated to her own ends. I have seen forgiveness as a mature response, used it extensively in my life. I have devalued my self worth through forgiving others. wow, i have hit a pit of anger with this one….i have acted in idiot compassion often in my life, and i am angry and resentful. Asshole upon asshole being forgiven, my never calling them to the mat for BS behavior, them never having to consider changing, no consequences at all. and i forgave them to save me? well, it freaking well hasn’t! (sorry, this isn’t directed at you at all, but i have an opportunity to explore this as what you wrote triggered me in the best of ways.) I just have anger and resentment in my heart. Those, less than disordered, need to be spoken to. They have had too much power over me;my silence has been collusion AS has my working to forgive them.
I have been looking at the idea of ‘acceptance’ as a way to move on in regards to the spath. If i can deeply accept what the spath is, and that she spathed me, maybe i can let go and release myself from the bondage in my heart.
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flowerpower says:
I forgot to add that anger FEEDS the evil doer. It is like fuel. Anger is a fools fodder…and we are dealing with fools.
Forgiveness purges the heart of anger , fear and conflict. It is your best tool when healing from this…but it is an ongoing process.
Our emotional healing has been described as stages…I think of it more as a big mass of emotions. Sometimes we feel anger AND sorrow at the same time. Overlapping layers of repeated emotions that we must experience to get past the pain…until time and love cover the memories and ease the pain. .
But forgiveness must happent to allow a calm discretion -true peace and wisdom- to be on our countenance. This confuses the enemy…who WANTS to cause strife and anger in us….and keep us suffering instead of healing.
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skylar says:
One,
I’m in the same place as you, having a hard time forgiving because I HAVEN’T HAD MY TURN TO BE HEARD!
I need my turn to vent my rage and explode. On the one hand, I think I need to be angry in order to build up my protective mechanism, but on the other hand, being angry is too much like being a spath, so I just want to skip it.
Perhaps the answer is to allow myself to hurt and be sad and cry. I’ve done that, maybe I need to do it more.
I think a spath becomes a spath when they decide that they will NOT BE SAD. They choose to feel nothing instead of the hurt and they cut themselves off from their own humanity. They tell God, “NO” I won’t suffer, I refuse. But suffering is HOW we grow up.
Grade school felt like suffering to me, I hated getting up and putting on that ridiculous uniform and dealing with unruly children and hypocritical teachers. But I went, I learned, I grew up. My spath quit 6th grade. We learn through suffering and if we say no, then we don’t grow up.
I think that when they say no to feeling grief they also cut themselves off from many other emotions, including compassion, the ability to bond and feel love and therefore ultimately can’t feel happiness. They train their own brain that way. Then the inability to feel happiness is what creates that awful envy toward those that can.
They choose anger and hate as the anti-dote to sadness.
My spath sister actually TOLD me she had “discovered” that she didn’t have to feel sad if she could change it into anger – and it felt good. She’s always been stupid and kinda selfish, but wasn’t evil until she got infected by the trojan spath and he puts these ideas into her empty (completely empty) head.
Makes me sad for her, but she is now a dangerous and venomous creature. It’s just like a vampire story.
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skylar says:
Wow, flower power,
thank you, such powerful thoughts. deeply appreciated as I work on this forgiveness stuff. My words reflect what I know to be true, but there is some serious outrage in my heart. Last night I dreamt of vengeance. In my dream I broke into my exP’s car and stole his laptop hard drive. I knew there was child porn on it and I was going to turn him in…it was great!
then I woke up.
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flowerpower says:
One.step-
Well, I thought I forgave but what I did was “enable”. Forgiveness from the new and improved me means, I release all thoughts and resentment ( and as I said this may have to be daily).I have boundaries and stick to them.
This comes from a “renewing of my mind”; controlling my thoughts and not dwelling on past events. It may take awhile but you will begin to live in the present and not the past.
Processing all of this takes time and we all are at different places. I want to move forward, not back ward but some days are harder than others. The hardest days for me are when I ALLOW myself to go back.
Focus instead each days blessings. Life is good…we are free. If you can hurt deeply, you can love deeply and that is a blessing friends.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hi sky – i am writing about 2 different types here – the disordered and the non disordered, and having two sets of mechanisms to deal with them.
with the non disordered –
we need to feel what we feel, and try to keep the balance between leaching anger and rage and other emos we deem difficult, and feeding it;
we need to set boundaries, AT THE TIME of the transgression if possible (if we don’t then we will continue to feel pissed OR we will become submissive to more BS and boundary violation);
see if there is change on the non disordered person’s part;
if not – no reconcilliation, and new boundaries that exclude them from the circle of influence they are currently in with us;
and forgiveness to loose the ties.
i have missed some steps in this mechanism – so i am pissed and resentful – see which steps? BOUNDARY STEPS!
i am suggesting that we need different mechanism for spaths and other disordereds. we need a different EVERY THING ELSE for them, so why not this, too?
forgiveness – it may not be the only way, and this is the exploration/ investigation i am on embarking on.
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flowerpower says:
Skylar, LOL…sorry you woke up!! Funny that dreams give us that “justice” we all want.
I love that even in our sleep God gives us a way to process the pain. My story really drove home to me that God takes care of us in the most important ways. How amazing is it that we have all “escaped” these types of relationships with our minds intact???
I can laugh now that even when my ex still tries to be “crazymakin”, I am scratching my head, thinking..What-that dont work no more, cant you tell??? Thank you Lord for a sound mind.
If you can look back at your experiences and be thankful that they are over and you are OUT…you are doing well. IF you can feel sorry for them…you are on your way to true healing.
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silvermoon says:
One….
Somehow the world comes into focus in a smaller concentric circles.
There is too just patience with accepting what happened and re balancing ourselves because there is soooo much fall out.
If there is a straight line to the answers, I can’t find it. There is high and low ond back and forth, but no beeline to recovering. If it is so that we ever do completely.
There are scars. The wounded place is never as strong as it was.
Its never going to be easy. But, life never was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One,
Some questions: NO ANSWERS.
For me DEFINING what “forgiveness” means is the first step.
What do you FEEL inside when you truly “forgive”?
Is it acceptance of what was in the past, or is it accepting that same behavior today?
Is forgiveness the same thing as approval?
Does forgiveness mean you reconcile with that person?
Once you forgive is the anger gone? Or does the anger remain?
Do thoughts of revenge or bitterness help you?
Does dwelling on the negative help you or hurt you?
Does it move you closer to resolution?
According to Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s work, ANGER is a part of grief (for loss of a loved one or loss of anything) I felt ANGRY at my husband for leaving me–FEELING angry, but logically I knew he didn’t deliberately leave me, but I FELT abandoned by him. That anger at him, that anger at my loss was a natural part of the grief process. But, would that anger be “normal” now, 6 1/2 years later? I had to let it go at some point and reach acceptance. I had to FORGIVE him for leaving me, for dying. Doesn’t mean I like it that he died, but I no longer am angry at him about it. I don’t sit and STEW and want to pith on his ashes like I did there for a while!
Now that I have “forgiven” him I can think about the good things that we enjoyed, and even laugh about some of the quarrels we had over the years! LOL
How about my P son? There is no doubt that he INTENDED TO HURT ME, I was angry! I was bitter. I was hurt. Does that bitterness at him, at what he has chosen to become, at what he chose to do add to my life or detract from it? MY ANSWER for ME is that it detracts from my life, so the only two choices I have are to continue the anger and bitterness or to ACCEPT (forgive) what happened, and accept that he is violent, that he chooses to hate me, that there is NOTHING I CAN DO TO CHANGE THE SITUATION.
My egg donor doesn’t love me, she has betrayed me in favor of my P son, and that hurt. That made me very very angry. There was a time there when I REALLY hated her.
In fact, she looked at me and she said “You really hate me don’t you?” I looked at her and I thought, And I said “Yep, right this minute I do hate you.” If I ever hated anyone at any time, at THAT MOMENT, I hated her. I don’t like that feeling of HATE. I don’t like how it made me feel, I don’t like what it did to the pit of my stomach.
I think the blog you posted about talking to your mother, about the disappointment that she couldn’t help you, about your love for her in spite of that, is really you FORGIVING her for being what she is in the past and also today. About your ACCEPTING what she is, what she was and what the situation is.
To me, acceptance =forgiveness, but NOT approval. Just acceptance and understanding of the way things ARE, not how we wish they were. You’ve come a long way, One step—one step at a time. I think you’ve made some big steps here lately. ((hugs)))
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flowerpower says:
one step
I think I see what u mean. But do you think that a stronger boundary, like no contact, is the way?
I think we must stay away from them but still forgive them. Otherwise, even with no contact and distance, they have control-by controlling our thoughts and emotions .
The power of unresolved anger and bitterness will eat away at you..not them. That is why we pray for enemies, it releases us from bitterness and turns them over to God.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hi flower,
(i wrote this before your above post….sigh. now, i read our post and my anger dissipates. I am not going to delete this though. I mean no harm.)
i am having an interesting response to your last two posts – that i surely didn’t have to your first.
I see a lot of peace and wisdom in them. but I feel subtly patronized. i feel really wild and angry. i know my day has stirred me up. and i know that i have had ‘forgiveness’ as a concept hammered into me, and have been abused by that insistence.
i said i want to look at something else as possible, and you said about forgivenss, ‘It is your best tool when healing from this’. it’s like suggesting that Christianity is THE best choice. Sounds reasonable in a Christina centric country, where Christianity is THE point of reference, or to someone looking for a theistic religion – i am not.
i trying not to be offensive. trying hard to take responsibility for how i am feeling, and express it.
I respectfully ask that other people not respond and try to tell me what flower ‘meant’, or that they see her posts differently. i will feel ganged up on and I surely don’t need to feel that on top of the anger.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
flower – stronger boundaries, like nc, yes, but so much more. i will work on filling it out.
i am not christian, i do not believe in god.
i need to step away from the computer now.
with respect,
one step
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