7 points to remember about dating and predators
PDF As human beings, we all want love and companionship in our lives. It’s a basic human need, right up there with the needs for food, water and shelter. When we are lacking an intimate relationship, most of us try to fill the empty space. That leads to dating.
Here is what you need to know about dating and predators.
1. Evil exists.
What the evil is called—psychopath, sociopath, antisocial personality disorder, narcissist—really doesn’t matter. There are evil people out there, and they can be found in all segments of society—rich, poor, male, female, all races, all religions, all communities. They look like everyone else, but they are predators.
2. If you are dating, you are a target.
As an unattached person, you’re probably feeling a bit lonely—that’s why you’re looking for dates. This is natural and understandable. What you need to realize is that predators specialize in targeting lonely people. They know exactly how to find this vulnerability and exploit it by seeming to take the loneliness away. They shower you with attention, flatter you and promise you a lifetime of happiness—exactly what you’re looking for.
3. Meeting people on the Internet is extremely dangerous.
Yes, there are normal people on dating sites. But there are also predators, and communicating via the computer you do not have the tools you need to spot them. Most of the true meaning of conversation comes from nonverbal cues—voice, facial expression and body language. None of that is available in an e-mail. So what do you do? You fill in the missing pieces with your imagination, and the person becomes what you want him or her to be. You fall in love with a fantasy. For more information, see Internet Threat and Online Seduction on Lovefraud.com.
4. Predators are often charming.
If you meet someone who is glib, charismatic and has a quick answer to every question, be aware that these traits may indicate excellent social skills—or a psychopath. Pay close attention to what is actually being said. Are there gaps or inconsistencies? Is the person evasive? Does the person change plans or break promises—and always has an excuse? If you’re nodding your head, proceed with caution. For more information, see Key Symptoms on Lovefraud.com.
5. Watch for the pity play.
According to Martha Stout, author of The Sociopath Next Door, the best clue that you are dealing with a sociopath is an appeal to your sympathy. If you’re dealing with someone who tries to make you feel sorry for him or her, blaming other people or “the system” for his or her problems, consider it a warning that the person may be a sociopath. For more information, see The Pity Play on Lovefraud.com.
6. Predators are often great in bed.
Many people who were involved with sociopaths have told Lovefraud that the sex was amazing. Sociopaths are often skilled lovers for two reasons: First, with an excessive need for stimulation, they are hard-wired for sex. Second, they get a lot of practice, often with anyone who comes along. In reality, sociopaths want only two things: sex and power. They do not feel love.
7. Do not ignore red flags.
Maybe something seems wrong but you can’t put your finger on it. Perhaps there’s a nagging feeling in your gut. Pay attention. Do not let him or her explain away your doubts. Do not tell yourself he or she has gotten a raw deal and your love is the solution. To avoid becoming the victim of a predator, your instincts are your best defense.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Stargazer says:
Tami, bless your compassionate heart for coming back again and again to hear the stuff you don’t want to hear. lol Sounds like you’re getting deeper into the drama, now letting your mother’s agenda affect you. What you decide for yourself and what kind of boundaries you set for yourself are NOBODY else’s business but your own! Damn, girl, this is a family where everybody is up inside everybody’s business! You guys all need some boundaries! Your family members may not understand or accept your desire to have healthy boundaries. They will try to suck you into the drama. This is where you have to know what you want and stand by it. Honestly, a program like Alanon might be good for you. It will teach you to have healthy boundaries. And sorry if this sounds judgmental but from an outside perspective, a 31 year-old man should be able to buy his own clothes. Or his wife/gf can do it. It’s almost as if you are relating to him as though he were still a child.
You are such a compassionate person, but I don’t know if you know how to turn that compassion on yourself and take care of yourself first and foremost. It’s okay to stop mothering your son and let him be the adult that he is!
My best to you,
Star
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tami says:
I’ve always bought my step son and my son clothes for Christmas since they’ve been adults because neither of them would ever update their closets! My husband is the same way and he’s not even their father! I didn’t do anything differently this Christmas than I’ve ever done. And, the reason my family is all up in my business is because I’m an only child and my son is my mother’s only grandchild. WE are my mother’s primary focus. And, when it seems to her that my son is not MY primary focus, she tries to put me on guilt trips. This only child crap is for the birds…totally different set of family dynamics.
I have set more boundaries with my son lately than ever before and I’m continuing to set them…that’s why I’m getting so much flack. But, I think NOT buying my son the usual Christmas gift would have been a bit petty. This is not about pettiness, revenge or even anger. I did tell him NOT to bring the gf with him when he came to get his gifts. Oh, and my mother’s agenda doesn’t really affect me…just thought I’d share…she’s always been crazy. I don’t even answer the phone half the time when she calls…only answered yesterday because it was Christmas and I did have intentions of calling her and my step father to wish them a Merry Christmas. Normally, I would have spent Christmas Eve with them and my son but not this year…spent it with just my husband. And, yes, my mother was a bit upset when she learned earlier in the week that I would not be coming to her house but I stuck to my guns. I think I’ve made it pretty clear to my mom that this situation is not about ME and that she’s not going to persuade me to think any differently.
And, since the last post, I’ve decided that the healthiest thing I can do for myself is just not answer the phone when my mother or my son calls. I have voice mail on all of my lines so they can leave a message in the event of an emergency. So, I expect that my mother will start harping on my son next! It’s HIS drama so he should be the one that has to listen to my mother’s harping. Personally, I’m preparing for my vanity surgery next month and then a nice long vacation after my recovery. I’m also starting a business in the spring that I have to prepare for along with continuing to help my husband run HIS business…AND my husband and I are finishing up remodeling the rest of our house. I will need every ounce of energy I have just to focus on these things!
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Stargazer says:
Hey tami, I knew you wouldn’t like my post too much. I tend to have rather strong opinions, and you can take them or leave them – I don’t mean to offend. I just wanted to give you a different perspective. A strong independent woman (who I imagine is the type of woman you’d like your son to meet) may not want to date a grown man whose mother still buys his clothes for him into adulthood. It hints of “mama’s boy”, and this can be a turn-off to a lot of women, depending on other behaviors, too, such as if he went running back to his mother other every time there was a problem in the relationship, or if he put his mother first in a lot of his decisions.
Even with just the clothing thing, sometimes a man’s wife or gf wants to be the one to shop for him and may feel like her toes are being stepped on if his mother cannot relinquish this role. I know if I were married, I would want to be the one to buy clothes for my man, especially since I have very good taste in clothes. I doubt I’d want to date a man whose mother still buys him clothes past his teenage/young adult age – it would be a yellow flag for me (but that’s just me). Of course, I’m still waiting to meet a man who has decent taste in clothes – there don’t seem to be too many straight men out there who can dress themselves. I agree that most of them seem to need help. LOL
However, this is just my opinion, and I may be the only one with this opinion, so please take it with a grain of salt.
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Ox Drover says:
Tami,
I too am an only child, (of my egg donor) and so I can relate to the only child problems, and with my egg donor taking over my sons as HER sons as well. Telling me how I have to treat them. LOL
The P DIL that my son C was married to also thought she had fallen into the bucks and was waiting around for the money to flow in….which of course in her case, it never would have until she was much older, so she got tired of waiting around and decided to take matters into her own hands and at least steal enough for a “new start” after she knocked off her husband, my son, C.
I think the Son’s GF is indeed planning to be the CAREGIVER of your mom and she has a pattern, which makes me think that your mom is in actual DANGER. The girl may drug or poison her and with her connections in the street drug world, probably can come up with the drugs. My DIL and the Trojan Horse used my mom’s own Rxs to drug her so she’d go to sleep and they could use the time in the bedroom while my son was at work.
Can I make a suggestion though? I would suggest that you DELAY your “vanity surgery” for some time because when you are under stress your body is more prone to infection and slower healing and it might cause some complications. The “vanity surgery” is NOT WITHOUT SIGNIFICANT RISKS….Take the vacation and get the stress levels down for a while before you undertake major surgery, and that IS MAJOR SURGERY.
Getting out of the drama-rama is a good idea as well. I too have a “small family” and I understand that when even one member is deleted it really gets small…but that’s okay. Small and peaceful is better than large and chaotic! MUCH BETTER!
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skylar says:
Tami,
I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with buying him clothes. Women buy clothes for men. Mom’s, wives, gf’s all buy clothes for men. Without us, men would go naked.
Everything else though, they need to step up and grow up. Your son needs therapy and if I were you I would stop buying him anything until he gets therapy. If he can’t afford it, then put his christmas gift money into a fund for his therapy. It’s not a drug habit that is his problem, it’s his drama addiction.
Because of his drama addiction, your own mother’s life is in danger from that spath he is with. There are 2 things a spath looks for when hunting for prey: wealth and vulnerability. They look far into the family for any possible sources of money, but to find a vulnerability, they only have to look at our reactions to emotional outbursts. Do we participate, get involved, try to save, try to fix? If so, then they know they have a live target.
Your mom is in danger and I’m not sure there is anything you can do about it. You’ve warned her. Perhaps she needs to talk to the spath’s father. Taking away all the spaths sources of supply is the only way to get rid of her.
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Ox Drover says:
Tami, I hadn’t thought about talking to the spath’s dad and getting him to go visit your mother (if he will) because as long as your mom has the will made out to you and your son, the spath very well could harm or even murder your mom…you said she had been responsible you believed for a suspicious death with another elderly person that apparently was scammed….and she had thought she could “inherit” more.
This woman is dangerous and I think Sky’s suggestion to talk to the woman’s father and get him to talk to your mom might save your mom’s life.
If this weren’t a case of “physical” danger I wouldn’t even bother with it, but I think in this case it might be worth a shot at it.
My egg donor devalued and discarded me in favor of the psychopaths and it almost cost my son C his life….and I don’t doubt it would have been my life, her life and C’s life if I hadn’t gotten on to the scheme and run. I know it “sounds dramatic” but the only thing we can do is to try to show them evidence and if your mom won’t listen, at least you tried. I would also inform the cops before hand just in case.
Good luck and God bless.
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tami says:
Stargazer, Oxy, Syklar: LOL! Didn’t like your post? LOL! Hey, gal, you haven’t HEARD strong and opinionated until I get started. I’ve just been feeling a little “puny” lately as we say down here in the hills. My spunk is returning. And, it takes much MORE than your post to offend me, girlfriend. So don’t worry about it.
Trust me, this girl could care less if I buy my son clothes. She’d be thrilled if I met his every need because she wants every DIME he earns for herself. But, I know my son…he wants all of his money, too (evil grin). And, he WILL pay the rent, etc. because he KNOWS that nobody else is going to. She lost her job months ago and does NOTHING! He does EVERYTHING for her. At first, I thought she might be the kind of woman who thinks that being pregnant means being sick but no, she wasn’t pregnant when she was married to her ex, and her ex-mother-in-law told me that her own son worked full time, did all the housework, cooking and grocery shopping. History is repeating itself with my son. I’m also quite certain that it will be HIM that’s getting up for the middle of the night feedings and diaper changes pretty soon as well. But, that’s alright…let him get his belly full.
She’s FAR from strong and independent…has never paid her own bills in her life…her father told me that she has NEVER taken care of herself, always whined that she couldn’t find a job that paid enough so he sent her through nursing school thinking she’d no longer have that excuse. He told me that he’d NEVER give her money again. Well, Daddy is now giving her money again because she’s pregnant (and OH THE BABY!) and he knows that it’s taking everything my son earns to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. Her father refers to the apartment they live in as a dump. She says she will NOT live there after the baby is born but plans not to work until the baby is at least a year old. The apartment is all that my son can afford. She has stated that she is certain that her father will buy HER a house after the baby is born because he will not want her and his grandchild living in a dump. And, I don’t doubt it. I think I’m learning a few things about this family. I believe that the only reason the father told my husband and me about her history is because he was angry and embarrassed that HIS daughter would ask someone else for money. So, to avoid embarrassment, he’ll just give it to her himself! And, referring to the apartment as a “dump”? He doesn’t seem to “get” that if people choose to spend all of their money on drugs, and choose not to work, then they have to live wherever they can afford. It’s not the nicest apartment in town but it’s mostly just old and it’s in a safe area. Actually, we don’t have any unsafe areas in our town. It’s been years since a murder and the few murders in the past have been domestic related.
And, I know my son well enough to know that he WILL expect her to work and help pay the bills AND help out around the house. He might be cutting her some slack because she’s pregnant right now but she’s in for a HUGE surprise after the baby is born. I AM a very strong and independent woman. He watched me go off to work for 30 years and I always earned more money than his father or my ex-husband. It was also ME who did most of housework, cut the grass, etc. and did it with a smile. His father was disabled and really wasn’t physically capable of doing a lot. As an only child who was raised on a farm, holding down a full time job, taking care of him and his brother, cutting the grass and housework was small potatoes for me. I even played softball for 31 years on two teams! Oh, how I’d love to have that kind of energy now. And, the boys were assigned chores as soon as they were old enough. As I stated before, my son has often said that I am the strongest woman he’s ever known and he’s always EXPECTED a woman to work the same as a man. I worked for a social justice non-profit for nearly 30 years and he grew up being exposed to those beliefs and values from the time he was 2 years old. He certainly does NOT view women as the weaker sex. He has always been close to my father’s side of the family which consists of only strong independent women…all of us worked for the same non-profit. He has NO desire to take care of an able bodied person…especially one that sits on her behind and demands the best! She’s in for a surprise.
He’s gained weight so I knew he could really use the clothes this Christmas, for sure…he has a dress code to follow for his job. I did notice that he ripped the tags off immediately after he tried on each item to make sure that it fit. I think he feared she might try to return what them and get the money! And, even my husband’s mother and sisters usually buy him and his twin brother shirts or jackets for Christmas…I’ve never given it a thought…less shopping for me! I detest shopping! I think it’s a little amusing that they still by them identical things although they are about to turn 52 years old! My husband and his brother find it humorous, as well. They are the only boys and their two sisters are several years older than them. They still see them as their “little” brothers. And, their mom and sisters still feel the need to buy them exactly the same thing as she did when they were children. We find it rather cute.
I spoke with my mother again later today…called HER to stress again to her what happened to the elderly aunt. It was weighing on my mind. My mother reminded me that when she, my step father and I met with the attorney to prepare their will that we put a clause in it that only a direct descendant of my son’s could inherit in the event that my son and I might pass away before my parents. All of us wanted to ensure that a husband couldn’t take my part from me in the event of a divorce nor a wife from my son in the event of a divorce. My son can’t sell his part without my agreement and I can’t sell mine without his. If either of us are deceased at the time of my parents’ death, then the other one gets everything. After the discussion, my mother and I were still left with some “what if” questions. She and I are going to meet with the attorney next week regarding our concerns. She’s now considering willing everything to me so I can have a nest egg in my golden years and will whatever is left it to my son if I see fit. Otherwise, she asked me to will it to a charity that we can both agree on. I jokingly told my mom that she MIGHT be setting me up for the kill someday! I asked my mom how we would convey this info to the girlfriend. She said that since she sits around and talks about everyone else’s money that she guessed she’d just announce it herself during a general conversation. Oh yeah, my mom told me that my stepfather had expressed some concerns to her about this girl being totally nuts today between our conversations and advised her that for once in her life, she’d better pay attention to the things I was telling her! I have a wonderful stepfather! He’s a very quiet and patient man but once he decides to speak, it’s very clear that he’s given what he has to say a lot of thought and he makes more sense than anyone in the family. He’s a listener and an observer.
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Stargazer says:
Tami, that was exactly my point. This girl doesn’t care what you buy for your son. But a strong woman – the type you may wish for him – would want you to step back a little. This one is just a sociopath. She would as soon just take you for everything you have.
Have you ever read the book, “Die Broke”? It’s a new philosophy about “estates” and such that takes out the greed element of having an estate.
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Ox Drover says:
Yea, Tami, I’d get mom to an attorney ASAP! Also, make sure that the will or trust says that the child must be DNA tested in order to inherit….that adoption doesn’t even count, and appoint a bank or other person to over see any money that the child would inherit, rather than the mother or even your son.
Good luck!
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tami says:
Oh, got your point now, Stargazer! Yes! I DO wish that he had a strong woman. This gal’s idea of independence is dang near hilarious. She TALKS (lies) about how she’s a strong independent woman yet she expects everyone to give her THEIR money or receive everything for free! I once told her that I learned when I was a young girl that whoever has the money, has the power. I said this at a time when she kept talking about her father’s money and her wealthy aunt’s money. I told her that every person she expected to give her money had power and control over her. She made some off the wall statement about them not caring what she did with the money. I told her fine but what if THEY stopped giving it to her? She failed to tell me that she was STEALING it from them! She has a HUGE sense of entitlement. Feels that whatever is someone else’s is every bit as much HERS.
My son does, too, to a certain extent from being a little spoiled as a child but he certainly knows what’s mine is mine. And, when I think about it, I was more spoiled as a child with material things than my son ever dreamed of. You name it and I had it. My son heard NO much more than I did when I was growing up. I didn’t have the kind of money that my parents had when I was a kid nor was I trying to impress anyone like my mother has always tried to. I tried to buy him quality clothing and such but didn’t go overboard. He showed signs of being a talented musician by the time he was 4 years old and I guess I spent more money on musical instruments and merchandise than anything. He didn’t want toys…he wanted guitars, keyboards, drums, etc. and recording equipment. Expensive, yes, but somehow his father and I felt that we were encouraging his talent. Actually, he is a bit of a prodigy. He can pick up ANY instrument and just play it and has a beautiful voice. We have no idea WHERE this talent comes from…certainly not from me nor his father! His brother was the athlete and the video game addict. My son was actually a nerdy kid. He either had a book or a musical instrument in his hands…has never had any interest in performing but loves writing, composing, mixing and recording his own songs shut up in a room all by himself. He’s already complained that this girl won’t shut up and leave him alone long enough for him to write. Said he stayed up all night one night after she went to sleep because a jingle popped into his head that he wanted to get down before it left him. That’s the thing about musicians, they will NOT allow anyone to snuff it totally out. The man I married after his father was a musician and so is the man I am currently married to. When they slip into music mode…that’s the cue to disappear unless invited to listen.
Oxy, yes, I forgot to mention that we talked about the DNA test and that we’ve always heard that an adopted child could not be excluded from a will but we’re not sure about that law or if it would apply to a great grand parent. That’s a question for the lawyer. We also talked about appointing someone to over see the child’s inheritance but wondered who to appoint since anyone we know would probably be dead unless some of us meet an untimely death. I’m sure the attorney can advise us about that, too. She’s calling the attorney today…hopefully, he’ll be in this week…if not, we’ll have to wait to see him after the new year.
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Ox Drover says:
Tami, I’m not sure about your state, but you can exclude someone with BLUE EYES if that’s your wish, (or in this case, your mother’s) in our state, the TRUST we set up really only goes into effect if I die before my mother, if she dies first, then the trust is turned over to me without any strings, I OWN IT OUT RIGHT….(her will is separate) but onlyy if I were to die before she does, then the LAND in the trust (the farm and 3 houses and the airport) go in a LIFE ESTATE 50:50 to the two bio sons. They can’t sell it, only use the income or live in the houses until they die. IF they have a child born in WEDLOCK and a natural child, then at THEIR deaths, the whole ball of wax is divided equally to the kid or kids and can be sold by those kids or whatever they want to do with it. So my sons only get the USE of the land and any income it produces.
At the time we made the trust we wanted to protect the farm in the event of all our deaths (my egg donor, step dad, me and my husband) from C’s wife and from Patrick if and when he gets out….but yet give them a place to live. Sort of a spend thrift provision. It never dawned on me that it would make Patrick decide that I needed to die before my mom does so that he would be assured of half interest in the farm. LOL If she dies first I can cut him out….and I will and he knows it.
A good estate planning attorney can tie the money up in such a way that your mom should be “safe” from the GF and your son’s interest protected after you are gone. It is pretty obvious to me that if he is able (ever) to access the entire estate that he will be conned out of it by some floosie if not this one. LOL So I would suggest that you put a “spend thrift” clause in there that will dole the money out so much a month rather than just give him access to the entire sums.
Banks, BTW over see estates all the time.
Good luck.
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tami says:
Not sure about my state nor the one I live in, either! LOL! Yeah, we’d kind of like to fix things the way your mom has hers. We’ve often discussed concern around my son receiving a large sum of money all at once because there will be some money involved in addition to the property. An airport! Cool! My husband is a pilot…we just visited what is referred to as a haunted airport not too far from us…rather interesting. Just thought I’d throw that in.
Yeah, my son would fool around a let some woman end up with all of it. Mom knows that I’d fight to the end but I still wanted HER to add a clause to protect me to save me a fight! We’ll just have to talk to the lawyer concerning the laws of the state and pick a bank that has been around a long time. A lot of banks in our area have closed but I guess they were the locally owned ones.
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Ox Drover says:
Tami, given your son’s social history and irresponsibility, I think leaving him a large chunk of money would be the equivalent of giving Lee Marvin’s character in Cat Balou the $50 all at once! LOL
The way ours is set up (and it cannot be changed) is that if my egg donor outlives me, the biological sons get that life estate….so my son Patrick decided that was the better option than letting my egg donor possibly die first and him not get a centavo, which is what would happen. I don’t think your son from what you say would be homicidal but I don’t think there is much doubt that the woman he is with would be (or possibly has been) My son C’s wife was definitely homicidal.
Funny thing, they had my egg donor so conned that she had put $50K into an account that myt DIL could have signed out every cent and fled and there would have been NOTHING MY EGG DONOR COULD HAVE DONE! Yet, she was so evil she wanted to only take half of the cash, to make it appear that she was leaving my son C and taking only HER HALF (Actually none was hers!) and he became violent and she and the trojan horse had to kill him to protect her! LOL If she hadn’t been so homicidal she could have at least walked off with a paid for car and $50K to start over and considering she had NOTHING except a kid in a wheel chair and one that was uncontrollable when she married my son, that would have been pretty good since my egg donor paid for the car, and even paid to bury her kid. It is amazing how some of them are so filled with rage that they will cut their noses off to spite their faces and end up losing everything in the process. God knows my son Patrick did.
I’m at least glad that your mom is listening, Tami. This woman needs to know that there is no way she is gonna get anything for decades, and even then not much! Looks like her father is enabling her…she is milking that baby before it is born. Poor kid. Bad genes and dysfunctional family besides the psychopathic mother.
You know, I made up my mind a while back that I am really GLAD that I have no biological offspring besides my 2 sons. I am so glad that neither of them has any children, but at the same time, if one of them were to have per chance a child, I will NOT get attached to the child and the fact that it would share some of my DNA is beside the point. To me, DNA no longer has any significance in my relationships.
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tami says:
Excellent point about the DNA. I might consider it important but only if this spath gf gives up all rights to it and never has any influence in its life but she’ll find a way to hang onto it as long as her father allows her to use it as her ticket into his wallet.
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MiLo says:
Oxy ~ I hear you loud and clear, I am also GLAD that neither of my biological offspring have had kids. The oldest and his wife are so busy making names for themselves in their respective careers, I can only imagine how a child would fit in there. Luckily, they realize that also and made the decision not to have kids.
The second and his wife would probably forget where they left the kid LOL !!!!!
I made the decision NOT to have a relationship with P/daughter’s girl child. I am NOT going to put myself in a position to raise ANOTHER one of hers. After being around the child for two hours on Christmas Eve, I KNOW that was the right decision. She is twice as hyper as Grand ever was at that age and is “raising” herself. I will not hesitate to turn her in to DCF if I felt it was necessary, but that is as far as I will go. Girl child’s father takes an active role and I trust he would not allow P to abuse this child, that is how it differs from Grand.
I thought it would be difficult to be around this child without having some sort of “grandparent” feelings for her, but I don’t. I treat her like I would a neighbor or friend’s child. I bought her an appropriate gift for Christmas – a battery operated, ride on, pink POLICE MOTORCYCLE – complete with a VERY loud SIREN. She refused to turn off the siren the entire 2 hours we were there. I LOVED IT !!!! I am SO BAD. It was driving mommie dearest absolutely crazy !!!!
Anyways – I understand.
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DUPED NO MORE! says:
I found the following read very good:
http://www.psychologytoday.com.....narcissist
Happy rest of the week everyone…
Blessings.
Dupey
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clair says:
Thank you all for this wonderful discussion. I haven’t read the first 3 pages, but pages 4-7 REALLY hit home for me.
In particular, the following written by skylar REALLY describes my dynamic:
“Whether the son is a spath or not, he is behaving in all the ways that create the same kind of drama spath victims are subjected to.
…your son is yoyoing you. One moment, he is insightful and considerate of you, praising you as the best mom and the next he seems to blaming you and attacking your behavior. This keeps you on the rollercoaster ride. You are experiencing lovebombing alternated with devaluing. Furthermore, he keeps you INVESTED in this drama because you love him”
and
Spaths “come in different flavors, but there are some red flags that you can count on. Expecting others to assume responsibility for them is a huge one. Drama is another large one.”
This is a dynamic I have experienced in my FOO since birth. Ugh. Lack of boundaries, drama, triangulation, enmeshment, codependence, toxic bonding: the whole thing, yup, that’s IT! Named & Claimed!
Another homerun from Oxy & Stargazer:
“Star, your advice I think is very well said and valid and I agree with it 110%…it IS LIKE CUTTING OFF AN ARM to get out of the TRIANGLE OF PAIN, and with people you love, but realizing that we cannot “save” them from the consequences of their poor choices and are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saving them from those choices, it makes it easier to let go what is NOT our responsibility.”
Step by step, I’m extricating myself from the drama, I’m gray rocking & detaching where I can, more and more each day.
Tami, I wish you all the best.
Thank you and Bless you ALL for a very, very enlightening & validating discussion.
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Ox Drover says:
Clair I am glad that the discussion helped you. That is the thing when we post something it is here years and months later. Someone who was not even involved in that conversation can still get something out of things we said months and months ago.
Keep on reading and learning, there are 700+ articles here, not sure how many exactly as that was probably a year ago so any subject is about covered. Knowledge is power and when we learn we take back more of our power!
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clair says:
Thank you, Oxy!!!
Yes, 700+ articles! My only problem is ocular migraines from reading the computer screen & sitting for hours on my already fat derriere, lol!
Love to all of you,
clair
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Ox Drover says:
Well, clair print them out and read them that way and get rid of the migraines.
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MiLo says:
I’m glad clair brought up this thread/discussion. I’ve been thinking about Tami and wonder how things turned out. I wonder if the child was her sons.
Thinking of you Tami.
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Ox Drover says:
Yea, Milo, I had forgotten about her situation….remember now. That is the worst part about LF is when people go away and you never know the rest of the story. LOL I like it when people pop back in and tell us how they are doing.
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clair says:
Oxy,
I will print this out cuz it’s a keeper. I have an image of the dysfunctional family roller coaster: weeeeeeeeeeee, up, down, round n’ round, over & over & over again.
Hi MiLo,
This discussion ended about 3 months ago. Hopefully Tami will return.
Tami: I really relate to the relationship dynamics in your family.
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skylar says:
Clair,
thanks for reminding us of this thread and of Tami. The LF community was cohesive in our advice to her. We all saw things very similarly. But it seemed like Tami didn’t, perhaps because it’s more difficult when we are talking about people we love, to see them as manipulative.
I wish I knew how things turned out too.
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ErinBrock says:
Hi Guys….
).
I didnt want to hijack a thread…..so i brought back this one to post what happened tonight.
I got a call from my GF, the one who (some may recall) her ex husband was hanging out on 2nd street getting sex from crack addicts in his car…..regularly…..
So….that was a few years ago…..and she’s starting to put her toe into the dating pool again. (NOT online or anything…..) LOL!
So, she meets a guy at her business…..he takes her out for a drink and dinner……her first impression was….he was a narcissist….then she started doubting herself.
She saw him again.
I asked her his background…..and she said, that he was a single father of three teenage daughters, his ex wife had left when the youngest was born….said she didn’t want this kinda life as a mother…..yadayada….
He went on about the ex’s parents helping him raise the youngens and they cut her out of their life.
Had this big bravado story.
So, tonight she called me, she saw him again last night. He really IS a nice guy and when she was alone with him at dinner, he showed his softer side.
*Sigh*
He has a very prominent job in her town….VERY prominent and public position. He’s been in town from Tx for 2 years now.
Something tonight made her google him……
(He had mentioned his ex’s name on their first meeting, and she took note).
THEY OWN A HOUSE TOGETHER……
So, she called me and wanted to do an ‘Erin’ on him…..we spent a few minutes.
First search came a photo of him and wifey at an event…..2 years ago, before they left TX.
Next came all the rest…….
So…..I called him and asked for the wife…..he paused and asked who this was…..I said “kathy’……and he paused…..and said…OH “KATHY SMITH”……I said YEAH…. (yeah….that’s it, Kathy Smith!
He said, well i’m in xx on business and she’s in TX with the girls….I siad, is everything okay “Joe”, are you two still together? He said, oh yes, im just travelling on business.
SPIT!!!!!!
Now heres my GF thinking…..all MEN SUCK!!!!
She’s meeting him at a restaurant next week……I’m gonna be there first to chat him up in the bar.
She’s reeling with the how/what/why’s…..I told her….It doesn’t matter, he will make it up as he goes. He doesn’t care about my gf….it’s all about HIM!
He went into so much ‘detail’ about his honorable raising of his children alone…..and this little B&B in an ‘out of the way’ place which has million thread count sheets, planting seeds in my gf’s head. Mirroring what she said to him……
he’s a nice guy, little details matter etc……
We got off the phone tonight confirmed…..when we date…..just do a bit of background, take notes on details and match em up.
Go with your gut, stick with your instincts and never question yourself!!!
There is so much to learn!!!!
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skylar says:
Good work EB!
yep, the red flags ARE NEVER WRONG!
to quote Ana, “NEVAH!”
You had me at “he was a narcissist.” Of course he was. Nobody who isn’t an N, seems like an N. Next, the only question is how pathological is he? Seems like you found out.
It’s really important to realize that once we’ve had contact with N’s we WILL continue to be attracted to them. It will take some very careful examination of ourselves to understand why that is.
In essence, I’d say that we, as former victims, tend to weed out the GOOD GUYS and gravitate toward what is familiar: Drama!
If we can’t change how we feel, we at least be cognizant of it and make decisions on what we KNOW instead of how we feel.
EB, watch out for his excuses. He will say that he didn’t want to talk about his personal life with Kathy Smith and that’s why he lied… to Kathy Smith.
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ErinBrock says:
He won’t have a clue…..I was the “kathy Smith’……
He was caught off guard….he was in a TAXI across the country…..just arrived…..that’s why he offered me a “LAST NAME”…..lol!
I just said I needed to talk to wifey about something for tomorrow.
I talked fast and hit hard…..He had no clue…..
He’s none the wiser…..plus, he’s proly already got his trist set up in the hotel when he arrives there and that’s where his mind was! YA know…..
STICK WITH WHAT we KNOW……
If we do that…..we’ll be okay!
What a douche……I just wanta fuck with him!!!!
I hate dudes that think they can get away with hurting people…..wtf……this is how he’s teaching his daughters it’s okay to be treated…….
I say….he’s got a lesson coming his way!!! “:)
DOUCHE!!!!
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clair says:
Good work, EB.
How does your GF feel? If it was me, my skin would be crawling. As much as I’d like to find a nice guy, I feel I can’t trust any more.
If it were me, I’d just cancel next week & let the whole thing die because, here’s my fear: if you show him you’re on to him, who knows what he might do. But, on the other hand, if you don’t let him know that you’re on to him, he could do this to other women. However, if he’s an N/SP, he’ll probably keep doing this to women, whether you let him know or not. Ugh. I hate Ns/Sps, such evil SOBs who put us in such dilemmas.
As skylar implied, I feel my ‘people picker’ is out of wack & I’m afraid I’ll pick another N/SP. I suppose this is why it’s best to proceed slowly because eventually, people’s true colors will be revealed. But, for me, I feel it will be negative reinforcement if it’s later revealed that I picked another N/SP. So, for now, I am a hard shelled hermit, an island, lonely at times, but free.
Rambling on for a moment: I was recently reading about Ns/SPs/bullies & they said they chose their victim because they perceived their victim to be vulnerable. I don’t want these jerks to perceive me as vulnerable, thus, my hard shelled hermit act, but damn, it can be lonely.
Anyway, would love to hear how it goes next week, EB. Good luck & please be careful.
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ErinBrock says:
Clair,
My gf is creeped out and pissed off.
It’s principal!!!
The stories he told her…….as if he could never ever be exposed…..WTF?!?!?
Like no one talks…….
Well…..we just want to shatter that elusion.
Haven’t decided how we will do it……but meeting him as a stranger waiting for my gf to arrive is a not so bad idea. He’s either gonna hit on me, or answer my inquisitive quetions about his family/job etc……either way, he’ll be BUSTED!!!!
He’ll wiggle nicely once she walks in and is apparant SHE’S the friend I was waiting for. HAHAHAHAH!
He doesn’t worry me…….these douche’s deserve to be outed!!!!
I’d like to bring his wife along too……..
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MiLo says:
EB ~ LOVE IT – LOVE IT -LOVE IT – you are my idol.
I see a new business venture – ErinBrock, PPP (Personal People Picker)
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Ox Drover says:
I think I’d just tape the whole encounter and then play it for the wife. She deserves to know. Maybe she does already but if not, she deserves to know he’s out dipping his wick….and maybe bringing home who knows what!
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Louise says:
EB:
I absolutely LOVE it!!!!! So awesome!!!!
So how does that trick work with the name you used…Kathy? Do you just pick any name and hope they know someone with that name? What if he would have said, “Kathy? My wife doesn’t know anyone named Kathy?” I know you would have made up something, but just wondering…
I have a story coming, too I think. I have just been waiting to say something until I see how it all spills out.
They are all bastards. I truly do think I will never be with another man and that’s OK…really!
No one will ever take advantage of me again. It’s already been over two years since I have been intimate and two years may very well turn into 32!
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Louise says:
EB:
Yes, Oxy’s suggestion is very good. I have one of those small Sony personal recorders and they pick up EVERY sound. It works VERY well! Get one of those if you don’t already have one and just have it in your purse…it WILL pick up the entire conversation…even in a noisy bar. I’ve done it before so I know.
Good luck and have fun! He deserves it! I can’t wait to hear what happens!!
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Ox Drover says:
Louise, do you think EB doesn’t have TWO of those recorders! LOL ROTFLMAO ha ha ha
The sneaky wench!
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Louise says:
Oxy:
Yeah, I know…how stupid of me to think EB wouldn’t have a recorder….haha, silly me!
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MiLo says:
I can see it now, EB, dressed in a trench coat asking the slime ball to speak into her shoe.
I love it when a plan comes together!!!
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skylar says:
That’s an excellent plan, especially if he has a foot fetish and she’s wearing her red high heels!
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behind_blue_eyes says:
I too share the frustration we all have regarding the lying and duplicitous ways of all narcissists and sociopaths. Moreover, the fact that they continually dupe people into thinking that they are nice and genuine people is particularly galling, especially since their victims typically are truly nice and genuine people.
Finding out “truths” about these toxic people is a common thread to all interactions with them; thus, the question of confrontation vs. moving on. When I discovered the truths regarding my x-spath, I was too hurt and too stunned to confront him. This is something I regret, perhaps just for my own ego’s sake.
Would a confrontation change them? Absolutely not. The mostly likely outcome is that they would simply view you as unstable. But there would be the personal satisfaction of at least them knowing you know the truth.
It can also clear the mind. Instead of ruminating about something you wish you had done you did it. This may even make moving on easier.
Regarding the wife, I would leave her out of it. She knows but is in deep denial. She is also probably a borderline type and dragging her into it 1) is not going to change anything; 2) will be short-term disturbing to a sensitive, albeit disordered person.
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skylar says:
BBE,
I disagree – respectfully. I see your point about not adding drama to the situation, but at the same time, it isn’t fair to her that nobody wants to “be the messenger”.
That’s what happened to me. They must’ve thought I was crazy, since that’s what the spath was telling them all. Everyone knew he was a cheater. Nobody told me. I lost 25 years and almost my life.
I hope someone tells her. It would be best if she seems to discover it on her own by accident… for example if someone accidentally pocket dialed her while in the company of the spath…
or if a “well-meaning friend” just happened upon the spath with the GF in an embrace or a kiss and took a snapshot and put it on facebook… then another well meaning friend connected the dots…
The point is, get lots of evidence before jumping on that bandwagon, so that he can’t wiggle out of it.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Skylar;
A question for you. Go back 10 or 15 years. What would have your reaction at that point in your relationship with your x-spath?
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ErinBrock says:
OMG….you guys CRACK ME UP!!!
OKAY…..so I must dryclean the trench coat and polish up the red stelletos……EB’s going in and it sounds like I have to take my ‘alter ego’ friend MTP cuz she always comes out with the red stelletos!
Yep…..I do have TWO recorders……one at home and one for the purse, digi cameras also. At one point they were my BEST friends!!!
Going shopping and to the range today with the kiddlings……I’ll have to put red lipstick on the list also. Maybe we’ll make that the first stop and I can wear it at the range as I practice my shot. A women in red is always a better shot!
BBE…..I get the dilema. We’ve all faced it. Bigger folks than me can walk away…….I didn’t want to live with the coulda/shoulda/woulda and had dead kids or harm come to us. So my aproach was to OVERCOME him with his own shit…….that is where the ‘backspath’ came in.
After all……if it’s good for him…….I may as well give it back right?
This doesn’t fit all situations and we need to have discernment to know when it’ll work and when it’ll back fire.
It does offer (us or our ego) some sort of satisfaction…….and in some cases I believe it allows the healing to move forward.
This happened to my gf……one of my besties, who was there tooth and nail for me in the trenches. She knows the “Erin’ side of me and walked the path…..all of it, as I did her.
This is my gf who put a tracker on her husbands car, I would watch it on the computer as I gave her directions to the motel parking lot he was meeting the crack whores. Her and I sat in that same parking lot waiting for his arrival one time.
When I would go to my rental (where spath was living) when spath was working by her house……she would sit at the top of the hill, on the phone with me to make sure his car didn’t move and I had time to get in and out of the house safely.
We had some fun and bonding recon times……and they went BOTH ways.
She is someone who’s been there for me, and ‘gets’ it’…….
WE both get some laughs about the things we did to fact find.
I think the wife needs to know……and what she does with the info is her deal. She doesn’t need to know where the info came from……..but she deserves to know. I think we’d of all liked to of had a heads up……and maybe we wouldn’t have done anything at that moment, but there is a moment that will come where that info will surface again and it will make her decision easier.
I’ll let my gf decide how she wants to aproach this…….
BUT……HE WILL BE EXPOSED!!!!
So…..EB’s running out the door, dressed in lace and my black trench…..library glasses and red stelletos…….heading off to the range for a little target practice.
Hope I don’t break an ankle!!!
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skylar says:
BBE,
It depends on what I was told and by whom.
If somebody I didn’t know simply told me that my spath was cheating, I would have to laugh. Not my spath, he’s a “one woman man” and he LOVES ME!
pthththtth.
But, if my parents had told me what they overheard him say, that would have been different. I would have believed them. (excuse me while I puke)
If I had been presented with video or audio evidence of his actual behavior, I would have taken it at face value.
Also, it isn’t necessarily a person’s immediate reaction to the information, that is important. She may initially go into denial. But as time progresses, the spaths will continue to show red flags. Now, in the light of the previous evidence, those red flags take on a new meaning. Now, instead of putting them in our WTF? bucket, we begin to see the real picture.
I’m not saying that we should take responsibility for her reaction to the information. I’m just saying that we should have enough compassion for her to make that information available to her and she can take responsibility for her reaction to it. It’s only fair.
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Ox Drover says:
You guys are TOOOOO much! I laughed and laughed at the visuals of EB in her trench coat and hiiiiii heels! LOL That is just too wicked, but I think the wife deserves to get the information and what she does with it, or if she already knows, then it is her responsibility, what she does with it from then on.
A GF of mine dated a guy who HAD been married, and he had cheated and brought home an STD to his wife, she had NO idea until then and he had to tell her…and he was a DOCTOR. LOL Well, she “made him” go to counseling and so on and of course he still continued to cheat….but the thing is if this guy is dipping his wick in one extra place, he has done it before and will do it again and he isn’t going home and wearing a condom. This woman DESERVES to know what she is dealing with, it is a matter of potentially life threatening STDs, not only HIV but HPV and several Hep viruses and so on.
When you are playing roulette with your body, even if you use “safe-r” sexual practices there are still “accidents” and condoms don’t protect you for ALL STDs.
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ErinBrock says:
Louise;
When you call someone YOU are in control. think about how you answer the phone……expecting to hear something, not knowing what the caller wants…….the caller is in control. Use that control in your voice. be assured and make that call knowing what you want to achieve.
Pick a name……everyone knows a kathy……and usually the response is……they provide the last name for you.
If you choose an uncommon name, it alerts them and they hang up.
If he didn’t know a kathy or prodded for more info. I woulda bsed my way along. But I didn’t need to.
If all goes awray……you can always hang up! done.
Always call dialing *67……it blocks your number.
*67 777 7777.
I can’t tell you how much info i’ve gained making random calls from spaths phone bill……I got all his drug clientelle by name and phone numbers.
It’s easy…….just take charge and most will follow!
Now….think of this in reverse……if you were the random callee.
DON’T say hello more than once. If no one is there…..hang up! If someone calls you and doesn’t speak…..hang up!
Don’t give any info over the phone……NOTHING.
When someone says I’ll take your number and have xx call you…….they are not buying it…..hang up.
I can’t tell you how many times you can call someone and they say…..Hello……..Hello……..Helloooooooooooo….then hang on the phone STILL waiting for someoen to speak.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
“BBE…..I get the dilema. We’ve all faced it. Bigger folks than me can walk away…”
EB;
I believe that interactions with Narcissists and Sociopaths are such that their very nature is triggering, therefore difficult to let go of.
A couple of months back, while getting ready for a trip to Prague, I went on an international gay dating site to perhaps see if there was anyone interested in a meet-up as the first half of my trip I would be alone.
Of course I had to see if my x-spath had a profile on the site and sure enough he does. Typical of him, not of the details are correct, location wrong, uses younger picture… And his is very, very active on the site. So, I stayed away from it.
However, seeing that profile and all its lies was very triggering, to the extent that part of me wants to create a dummy profile, work him a bit, then out him. At least indirectly I would get some satisfaction and it would set him off knowing that despite his best efforts at hiding so as play his game, he was caught at it.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Skylar;
Regarding the wife, it is a very tough call. Certainly, at some point she is either going to get hurt or years from now come to the same realization as you. Maybe then, the sooner the better…
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Ox Drover says:
BBE, why in God’s name are you still on “dating sites” on line? I do NOT get it that you still fish in these sewers unless you are looking for a piece of shiat! After all that has been shown here on LF and after the bad experiences you have already had you would still try to find “love” on line! I won’t say any more about this but just had to express my opinion on this one BBE!
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Ox Drover says:
EB, some good advice about being in “control” on a call. When someone calls me and says “who is this?” I will only reply, “who are you trying to reach?” If they don’t know, or don’t say my name or D’s name then I say “you’ve reached a wrong number” and hang up. I don’t give out information. ANY information over the phone.
I too have used your tactics to GET information and it works like a charm most of the time.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Ox;
It was just for the Prague trip to see what the people were like and maybe meet somebody to meet-up and have a beer. I never did meet anybody from it in person.
Perhaps the very fact that the x-spath was there with his profile full of lies was enough to make me think twice, lol!
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Ox Drover says:
BBE, every time you see another one of his lying profiles you get triggered again! LOL You’d think he would have sense enough to not keep using the “younger” photograph if he intends to actually MEET these people, they are going to know it is a lie! LOL
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