7 points to remember about dating and predators
PDF As human beings, we all want love and companionship in our lives. It’s a basic human need, right up there with the needs for food, water and shelter. When we are lacking an intimate relationship, most of us try to fill the empty space. That leads to dating.
Here is what you need to know about dating and predators.
1. Evil exists.
What the evil is called—psychopath, sociopath, antisocial personality disorder, narcissist—really doesn’t matter. There are evil people out there, and they can be found in all segments of society—rich, poor, male, female, all races, all religions, all communities. They look like everyone else, but they are predators.
2. If you are dating, you are a target.
As an unattached person, you’re probably feeling a bit lonely—that’s why you’re looking for dates. This is natural and understandable. What you need to realize is that predators specialize in targeting lonely people. They know exactly how to find this vulnerability and exploit it by seeming to take the loneliness away. They shower you with attention, flatter you and promise you a lifetime of happiness—exactly what you’re looking for.
3. Meeting people on the Internet is extremely dangerous.
Yes, there are normal people on dating sites. But there are also predators, and communicating via the computer you do not have the tools you need to spot them. Most of the true meaning of conversation comes from nonverbal cues—voice, facial expression and body language. None of that is available in an e-mail. So what do you do? You fill in the missing pieces with your imagination, and the person becomes what you want him or her to be. You fall in love with a fantasy. For more information, see Internet Threat and Online Seduction on Lovefraud.com.
4. Predators are often charming.
If you meet someone who is glib, charismatic and has a quick answer to every question, be aware that these traits may indicate excellent social skills—or a psychopath. Pay close attention to what is actually being said. Are there gaps or inconsistencies? Is the person evasive? Does the person change plans or break promises—and always has an excuse? If you’re nodding your head, proceed with caution. For more information, see Key Symptoms on Lovefraud.com.
5. Watch for the pity play.
According to Martha Stout, author of The Sociopath Next Door, the best clue that you are dealing with a sociopath is an appeal to your sympathy. If you’re dealing with someone who tries to make you feel sorry for him or her, blaming other people or “the system” for his or her problems, consider it a warning that the person may be a sociopath. For more information, see The Pity Play on Lovefraud.com.
6. Predators are often great in bed.
Many people who were involved with sociopaths have told Lovefraud that the sex was amazing. Sociopaths are often skilled lovers for two reasons: First, with an excessive need for stimulation, they are hard-wired for sex. Second, they get a lot of practice, often with anyone who comes along. In reality, sociopaths want only two things: sex and power. They do not feel love.
7. Do not ignore red flags.
Maybe something seems wrong but you can’t put your finger on it. Perhaps there’s a nagging feeling in your gut. Pay attention. Do not let him or her explain away your doubts. Do not tell yourself he or she has gotten a raw deal and your love is the solution. To avoid becoming the victim of a predator, your instincts are your best defense.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Louise says:
Tami:
I have a suggestion as to why your son has gained weight after stopping drinking. I have known a lot of people who drink who don’t eat sweets. They are getting their carbs from the alcohol. In my observation, they have all been thin. So maybe now that he stopped drinking, he is eating more carbs and gaining weight. Just my thoughts.
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Stargazer says:
Tami, I understand it makes you feel better to maintain this relationship with your son with whom you are very close, at all costs. Just remember that in doing so, you are also choosing to keep a sociopath (his gf) in your life and all the drama and craziness that goes with it, by proxy. You are also modeling to your son that it is okay with you to have a spath in your life by proxy, i.e., that you are disrespecting yourself to maintain your relationship with him. This will keep a certain amount of stress in your life that will undoubtedly cause stress-related illnesses over time. Here you are about to have a facelift to look younger, but then adding more stress on the other end, which accelerates aging.
In addition, you may end up raising an addicted baby, which will pretty much set the course of your life for the next 18 years. You can expect a lifetime of drama and ups and downs. If you bond with the baby, you will always have the gf and her family in your life. This is a steep price to pay to maintain your close relationship with your son who seems to be making some very bad choices in his life, and dragging you into it at a time when you should be enjoying your own life. I find it disrespectul and selfish on his part. He didn’t want to “worry about you” for his own selfish reasons – to decrease his own stress level. So he only thinks of your feelings when it is convenient for him. Your son is disrespecting himself, and now has disrespected you. And you are allowing it. I think it takes a lot of nerve for him to even consider having you raise his baby. Was your 31 years of service to him not enough? It’s not as if he is a teenager having a baby.
Sorry I cannot say it as eloquently as Constantine, but I agree with his posts to you. It does not sound like a healthy relationship between the two of you at this point, but one of enmeshment. I can imagine the thought of losing your close relationship with your son is excruciating. But what a steep price to pay to keep it. I hope you will reconsider and save yourself. You deserve a spath-free life. Everyone does.
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KatyDid says:
Tami
Am so glad for you to have communication with your son that put you at ease. I know how not knowing what’s going on with an unstable child makes a parent feel very anxious.
Am also concerned about some of his “answers” b/c they indicate some pretty emotionally unhealthy thinking. I wonder your observation that he is having to grow up fast? Isn’t he over 18? B/c what you write makes him sound very immature. I don’t like him throwing crumbs at you, saying he needs you to help him. Why would a MAN need his mom like that? All his compliments towards you (love bombing) came off as manipulation when I read it. It’s like he was egging you on in competition with her. (more triangulation). Pretty creepy. Am agreeing with Stargazer that he is disrespecting himself (emasculating himself as if he is a boy) and disrespecting you (mommy rescue me) and disrespecting her (blame blame blame rather than accountibility and dignity). From what you write, it would not go amisss to get some family counseling to help you establish healthy boundries so your son can be the man his kid will need him to be and not be the dependent child that will drive you nuts.
Best
Katy
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Stargazer says:
Katy, you said it so well – I have such a hard time articulating sometimes. I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but I wonder if Alanon might be a good resource?
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KatyDid says:
Stargazer,
The boundry issues stand out in Tami’s dilemma don’t they. HUGE problems with boundries. Her son has a drinking problem. As Tami writes, her son says he has quit drinking SEVERAL times. Who quits drinking? I never have. The only people who NEED to quit drinking are the ones whose alchohol abuse has created life issues… like sonny boy. The problem for him is that quitting drinking doesn’t resolve his problem… his drinking is just a symptom of his avoidance. SONNY boy Def needs AA or sim program to assert some boundries and self responsibility. At minimal, he needs parenting classes. Sadly no one is going to do what’s best for that baby (adoption); it’s become a possession. Train wreck a coming…. boo hoo.
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strongawoman says:
Star, I liked your post to Tami. Couldn’t agree more. My brother had a baby with a disordered woman…..I now know she was a spath.
It was a terrible experience for my mum particularly. My brother had a huge battle with the mother of his child…..for YEARS! He eventually met and married another woman who helped(rightly or wrongly)my brother see that NC was the only way with the ex……a massive price to pay. He didn’t see his daughter again and eventually went NC with my mum too. Not entirely sure what or why that happened. We …my sister and i…think that his wife didn’t want my mum interfering in encouraging my brother to go NC and the devastating results that that stance would incur.
My mother can be quite manipulative and she did try to influence his decision because this was her granddaughter and she had bonded with her and couldn’t see past her desire to have a relationship with the baby.
Anyway, it was a mess. My brother hasn’t spoken to my mum or anyone else …me and my 2 sisters… in 14 years. And we are all NC with his child who grew up just like her mother.
Painful, exhausting experience that I wouldn’t wish anyone else to
experience. Toxic people have looooong reaching long lasting effects.
His child is now….25. And still the ripples keep coming.
Sad. Devastatingly so
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Ox Drover says:
Tami, I agree with Star’s suggestion and think that you might consider Alanon for yourself, and You might suggest AA for your son. Though he has quit drinking he says now, since he has demonstrated in the past a serious tendency to “drink to excess” when under stress, it might be a good idea for him, in light of this baby coming for him to get some help and this would be a good place for him to start.
The whole situation is triangled with the “rescuer (mom) persecutor (girl friend) victim (him and the poor baby) but when you start trying to “help” him to rescue this poor innocent child from the bad mommy-person, then you will become the “persecutor” and the bad-mommy person will be the victim, along with her child, and sonny-boy will have to “rescue” the bad-mommy person and the child from YOU! And round and round it will go, like Emotional musical chairs with the music stopping and everyone getting a new chair/role, and round and round it will go again.
The Continual DRAMA RAMA that goes on forever with excuses, enabling, and acting out on the part of whoever is in the “persecutor’s” seat, enabling by the rescuer, and the victim doing the pity ploy! In the meantime, the child learns Dysfunction and lack of boundaries to go along with the pith-poor DNA he/she has inherited from Mommy dearest and maternal grand mommy dearest! and possibly brain damage from mommy dearest’s drug use during the first? Second? Third trimester? of the pregnancy!
While I realize from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that it is difficult and painful to distance yourself from one of your children (in your case your only child) who is living a dysfunctional life, I also realize from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the dysfunctional life style is HIS CHOSEN LIFESTYLE. He voluntarily put himself in this position, and he voluntarily stays in it. As long as he stays with her for ANY reason (excuse) the drama will continue. My son’s drama continued until his wife and her boy friend tried to kill him. That did shake him loose from HER, but not to any long term reform in life style…his is still dysfunctional.
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Stargazer says:
Also personal experience here going NC with immediate family members (sister and mother). It is not an easy thing to do. I so feel for the pain of this. It’s like cutting off your right arm.
Yes, Katy, boundary issues really stand out here. Boundaries the son has not set for himself, and unhealthy boundaries between Tami and her son (sorry for talking about you in the third person, Tami). Sound like a lot of codependency. Part of setting healthy boundaries is to figure out why (Tami), you feel this need to rescue your son. Once you find a healthier way to meet this need, it might be easier to let go. This takes some soul searching, asking yourself why it is so hard to let go, and what purpose this rescuing part serves for you. It is possible that you have overfunctioned for your son since he was young, and so it’s hard to step back and change that. The first part in changing any family dynamic is to change your own behavior. It shakes up the system and forces others to change, too.
A mother’s role is to raise her children to adulthood, not to be their best friend, confidante, or rescuer. Even when children are little, it’s important for parents to let them make mistakes and not to always protect them from the consequences of their actions. This is how they learn to be responsible adults.
This is not to say a mom should never be close to her son, but in such a way that she does not assume any responsibility for his mistakes. Even in a more healthy situation, a mom overstepping boundaries in her son’s life will often put the new wife on the defensive. When a man gets married, his new wife and family becomes his top priority, and this is appropriate. Even things like continuing to buy clothes for a son can feel like overstepping the wife’s role. Too many marriages split up (like my father and mother’s) because the man is a mama’s boy and will not have a healthy separation from his mother.
I think it is really overstepping your bounds to to interfere with the fate of the unborn child, even if asked. If both parents are deemed unfit to raise the child, there are other adoptive parents out there who could give this poor child a loving home. I know it’s tough love to say to your son, “I’m sorry you are in this situation, and I hope you can figure it out. There is nothing I can do to help you.” A good support group like Alanon will support you in asserting these healthy boundaries.
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Ox Drover says:
Star, your advice I think is very well said and valid and I agree with it 110%…it IS LIKE CUTTING OFF AN ARM to get out of the TRIANGLE OF PAIN, and with people you love, but realizing that we cannot “save” them from the consequences of their poor choices and are NOT RESPONSIBLE for saving them from those choices, it makes it easier to let go what is NOT our responsibility.
I think I will always have some “addiction” to wanting to “help” others but I have to set my boundaries on what is “help” and what is “enabling”—Yesterday I had to step up to that LINE when a “drama addicted” person I know called me and said she had suicidal thoughts and a plan….and when I started talking to her she hung up on me. Then sent me a snarky e mail telling me how UNSUPPORTIVE I was being to her, but I took ACTION, but NOT RESPONSIBILITY.
When people “mention” or “threaten” suicide I do not take it lightly and I don’t “play that game.” While I don’t really think this woman would actually have harmed herself, I think it was “game playing”—the RESULT was NOT what she had hoped for, because I did not fall into the “pity party” or “pity play” and she did not get “sympathy” out of me.
When the sheriff shows up at your door because you threatened suicide (BTW I have that threat in WRITING) it isn’t the result you expected…and it goes on your record and there is a police report made, including a copy of the e mail to the sheriff’s office.
TIP for Drama Queens: do NOT put your suicide threats/gestures in writing and don’t try to play that game with a mental health professional or former professional.
This woman is married to a friend of my son’s and mine, and I realize he is in this situation (the relationship) voluntarily, and I also realize that in order to spend time with him, we will have to spend a limited amount of time with HER, but I no longer play her games or allow them to upset me emotionally. I keep a mental and emotional distance from her DRAMA.
If her husband was my son, though, or someone I was very emotionally intimate with, I don’t know if I could have any kind of relationship with either of them, even for the sake of being around him. I tried to do that with my son C when he was married to the Psychopath, but it wasn’t satisfying or healthy. I would not do it again if the person was very close to me. Just my opinion on how I would conduct MY life, and each person has to make their own decisions for themselves….and live with the consequences.
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KatyDid says:
Stargazer
The second half of my post did not appear. It was a message to Tami that echoes what you have written. Tami is caught in a pattern of excusing making for her son and it is emotionally crippling him, enabling his lack of personal responsibility. Tami needs to learn boundry setting as much as her son does. That is clear. Alanon is one solution, strongly recommend Alanon or similar.
What is telling is that child services is struggling to find someone to care for a baby that isn’t even born yet. That doesn’t happen except in the worst of cases. They’ve written off sonny boy, the gf, her family, and are looking toward Tami. I am sad for baby b/c I really do think best for baby is adoption out, but am thinking as I wrote, this baby is seen as a possession, there is NO emotionally healthy home for a child within this dysfunctional family dynamic.
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Stargazer says:
Thank you, Oxy. I would take it a step farther and say that not only is it NOT saving them, but it does them a huge disservice. It prevents them from experiencing the full consequences of their actions.
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Stargazer says:
Katy, your words are very succinct, but really pack a punch. Well said.
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skylar says:
Star,
your comments were extremely well stated.
Whether the son is a spath or not, he is behaving in all the ways that create the same kind of drama spath victims are subjected to.
Tami, you son is yoyoing you. One moment, he is insightful and considerate of you, praising you as the best mom and the next he seems to blaming you and attacking your behavior. This keeps you on the rollercoaster ride. You are experiencing lovebombing alternated with devaluing. Furthermore, he keeps you INVESTED in this drama because you love him, he is your son and now he is adding a grandchild to your INVESTMENT. It’s a ponzi-scheme because they can take that child away from you whenever they choose. That’s how they will continue to manipulate you. His discussion about custody was simply to establish that he could count on your hooks being in the right place.
“he told me himself that he was trying to do it with MY help because it was something that he had to do on his own for once in his life”
This is a contradictory statement. If he has to do it on his own for once in his life, then why is he asking your help? Word salad- red flag.
The contradictory statement is an appeal to your vanity as well. Only with YOUR help can he do what he is obligated to do. This is a boy who has still not taken RESPONSIBILITY for anything in his life. YOU are still there at every step of the way. He demands it.
In his comparison of you to his gf’s mom, he is again TRIANGULATING you but this time with the gf’s mom.
Tami, from your very first post it was clear that your son was overy dependent on you for a man his age. Most men and women do not go stay with their mom when sick. If they are that sick, they go to the hospital. This suggests a lack of boundaries between you. And it tells me that he has no problem expecting you to assume responsibility for him when he presents you with any problem.
You said that you have experienced a spath before. They come in different flavors, but there are some red flags that you can count on. Expecting others to assume responsibility for them is a huge one. Drama is another large one.
I expect that when the baby is born, he will report that it is his baby. I wouldn’t trust his word on that. Without forewarning him get a copy of the report for yourself. That said, I still recommend NC.
As Star said, you are doing him a disservice when you continue to be his emotional crutch long after the time when he should have grown a backbone.
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KatyDid says:
Stargazer
I do think my words may sound harsh but it is my attempt to cut through some big denials. At this point, kindliness comes off as enabling and that baby does not need another enabler. The answer is easy, it’s the DOING of the solution that’s difficult b/c it will take somebody putting the baby’s needs first and when a child is a possession, nobody is going to do that.
I think it a Terrible tragedy when a child’s life is already predictable before it is even born b/c baby hasn’t one single healthy person to intervene for it. Adoption is the only chance for that baby, who already has genetics and likely chemical abuse to overcome. The rest of the people are their own consequence, none of them are connected to themselves and therefore unable to connect to others, and are so numbed to the bizarre thinking that alcholism and pill popping are merely choices of behavior and not the deal breaking red flags of HUGE emotional problems that they should be to moms, dads, and social services.
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Ox Drover says:
Guys I think all of us have given Tami some words to be “thought upon” and ACTED upon, but the bottom line is that TAMI is going to have to make the decision on how she responds to this “drama rama.”
I am really proud of each of the posters for your insightful comments to this situation and the analyzing of what is going on. Each of you have given good advice and have seen through the “drama triangle” in to what is really happening.
It is much easier for us to see the “big over all picture” because we are not emotionally involved in it. Tami is. I wish her well. (((hugs))) for Tami and for you all too!
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Stargazer says:
I have a slightly different take on it than son behaving like a spath, though I agree with Sky’s comments that the effects are the same. I think your son might by yoyoing you because it is his weak attempt at asserting his independence from you (or at least tranferring his dependence from you to his gf). If you are overmothering him, it puts him in an awkward position. It’s probably just as confusing for him, and he doesn’t know what to do or what kind of relationship to have with you. It may be that he wants to grow up, but he needs you to pull back a little, so he can stand on his own. But of course, when you pull back, he clings because he’s afraid to let go. So when you set boundaries, he is going to test them. All kids do this.
Oxy, just saw your post, and yeah, Tami, this is all with a big hug to you.
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skylar says:
Star,
I was thinking yesterday, about my relationshit with my little spathy sister, R. She was born when I was 3.5 and my parents made me assume responsibility for keeping her happy. I was told to give her my doll, play with her etc…
I spent my time teaching her to read, write, do arithmetic before she entered first grade. She followed me around, looked up to me, copied everything I did. I rescued her from anything she couldn’t handle easily, gave her advice, taught her to drive and even wrote her senior thesis. This required that I read the book Don Quixote! My parents trained us both to behave this way: me, the martyr/christ figure and she, the dependent follower needing saving.
What is interesting though, is what happened when she started dating. She would talk about me to her boyfriends, constantly comparing ME to THEM. MY opinion to THEIRS. Her first boyfriend even had a saying, “your sister, huh?” I guess he was tired of hearing, “My sister… blah blah blah”
She was always looking to date a authority figure. First guy was a senior in hs, while she was a freshman. Next guy was her teacher in college. After college, it was her boss at her first job. Then, she married the trojan horse spath because he was a cop.
My behavior toward her was like Tami’s. I would assume responsibility at the drop of a hat. Any time she needed anything, I was there to fix her life. It’s too bad that I did that. I think it was disrespectful to her personhood. She never developed any self confidence in her abilities.
I also never looked at her with pride. I only looked at her with “what can I fix for you today?” She never got to be an equal with me and I think that’s what partly stunted her growth. She is stuck in a perpetual need to compare herself to me and her fate is to never measure up. It’s no wonder she was easily tempted to try to kill me by her spath husband. Ironically, the spath husband is as obsessed with me as she is, since my spath sent him to infiltrate my family.
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Stargazer says:
Sky, sounds so similar to what happened with my sister. I think there’s a point where a younger sibling looking up to an older one becomes a pathological sibling rivalry where one can become the identified patient and the other the rescuer. This is what happened with my sister and me. What would have been an ordinary younger-older sister relationship with normal amount of sibling rivalry was tainted by the abuse of my parents. My sister’s emotional growth was stunted, and I tried to rescue her long into my adulthood. She put me in that role and then always resented me for it. I hope wherever she is, she has found her niche in life and is happy.
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MiLo says:
Star ~ I started to post this earlier, then was interrupted. I think your original post was very well articulated, well thought out and caring. I agree 100%.
Katy, while your words may sound a little harsh, you have made the most valid point of all. The real loser here will be the baby. It will come into this world with more than it’s share of problems. Drug usage during the first trimester of pregnancy does the most damage to the unborn child. IF she has not stopped using, an addicted child goes through the same withdrawal as the Mom. Once in the world, it will not have the benefit of a mother’s love or nuturing. It will have a mother that will use it as a pawn to get her own personal wants and needs at it’s expense. It will have a father, that may love it, but is not capable of raising it on his own. You are so right Katy, adoption is the only truly wise choice, but it will not happen. This child would be adopted to a family seeking to adopt a “special needs” child. They would take classes and be aware of how to properly take care of this child. They would not be in denial over what they might expect from a child born under these circumstances and they would receive help from experts on raising it.
Oxy ~ you are right, this is a decision only Tami can make. It is all too easy for all of us to say what we might do under the circumstances. As most of you know, I was faced with something very similar. I don’t know if I would call it denial, but I was always praying things would be different, always holding out hope that my daughter would “see the light” and be a Mom. When faced with that tiny, innocent child, it is very difficult to turn away, even knowing your life with be filled with heartache, chaos and drama.
Tami ~ I want to give you a big hug too. I ended up doing what I could look at myself in the mirror and feel OK with, what I could live with. I wish you strength and courage.
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tami says:
O-kay! Had a wonderful time in Nashville with my best gf this weekend!
Yes, my son is immature when it come affairs of the heart. And, yes, my son stopped drinking once before and craved sweets. He had NO idea what was going on because he had never cared for sweets very much before. We did a bit of research and determined that this is something that happens to a lot of people when they stop drinking. And, my son’s drinking has NEVER interfered with his appetite. He’s not the type of drinker that stays drunk for days and doesn’t eat. But, he liked having anywhere from 4-6 beers after work EVERY night and it wasn’t just that he liked them…he seemed to NEED them.
As far has him asking me for MY help…the STATE will require him to have help if he takes the baby. They don’t just toss a newborn baby to a first time father here in Tennessee…especially a baby who may very well have special needs. They REQUIRE that a person, preferably a FAMILY member, with some experience agree to help the father with the child until he finishes parenting classes with them. He knows this…the state has TOLD him what will be required of him and he asked me if I would be WILLING to be that person. And, I have already told them that I am willing as long as the child does belong to my son. The state will pay for the DNA test to determine this! Sometimes I feel that I confuse y’all with the manner in which I express these things or maybe take for granted that you KNOW what the state of Tennessee requires. DCS requirements vary from state to state. They won’t even allow a grandparent past a certain age to have custody of a grandchild unless a younger family members agrees to help with the children. My husband and I JUST went through this with HIS brother’s 15 & 10 year old nieces.
My son is scared to death of NOT knowing how to take care of a tiny baby that can’t tell him what is wrong. I was scared to death when he was a baby and called upon older family members who had more knowledge that I did whenever something didn’t seem quite right with him! I didn’t have any siblings, either, so it wasn’t like I had ever been a part of taking care of a newborn or even observing someone take care of one on a regular basis when I was growing up. It took ME awhile to get comfortable with a tiny baby myself.
My mother DID finally contact me. I think she finally saw the light. The spath gf had been calling her on a regular basis and she FINALLY started to catch some inconsistencies and off the wall remarks the girl makes. My mother also informed me that the gf had been skipping doctor’s appointments again. And, my son IS suddenly almost desperately trying to get with me now to talk to me in person! He doesn’t have a clue how to handle this situation. I, myself, have had to make endless phone calls and read massive amounts of materials regarding the state’s laws about these things. We’ve NEVER had a situation like this in our family before. My mother told me that she KNEW the gf missed her appointment this past week and the gf actually told her that my son got very upset with her for missing it…said he was tired of trying to work and worry about what she’s going to do and not going to do! It’s obvious that the girl doesn’t give a damn about this baby. I feel that my son may very well be seeing that this gal is NOT going to follow the state’s requirements of her. He is doing EVERYTHING they asked HIM to do and he IS in counseling! She was, too, until the counselor told her some things about herself that she didn’t want to hear!
And, NOBODY will have to deal with this gal because if she can’t stay clean when she’s pregnant, then she sure as hell won’t stay clean after the baby is born! If she even desires to have visitation rights, she will be REQUIRED to pass a drug test EVERY week. The FIRST test she FLUNKS…the state WILL take all of her rights away PERMANENTLY and whoever has the baby will be issued an order of protection/restraining order against her. She feels that she is SO superior that the rules don’t apply to her. My son KNOWS better! The state scared him to death! She has the attitude that NOBODY is going to do ANYTHING to her because her daddy can fix everything. Well, daddy can’t fix this. Just like I can’t fix this for my son! I can be supportive but HE has to adhere to the state’s requirements and he is doing that. The gf told my mother that he just needed to SHOW the State that they weren’t going to push them around! The girl is freakin’ nuts! I’m just glad that my mother FINALLY realizes it! Of course, now my mother is freaked out again!
I feel that out of my own frustrations and being kept in the dark and making assumptions that I have misled you all. And, my mother actually offered some pretty good insight. She told me that it was probably ALL my son can do to deal with this crazy girl while also having to listen to her tell him how stupid he is for attending the counseling sessions required of him, work full time and take care of the house work, including packing their clothes off to a laundry mat to wash them, grocery shop and cook! He’s always been capable of doing all these things because I taught him how when he young. My mother said that she can see how he wouldn’t be able to handle ME or HER asking him a zillion questions and telling him that he needs to do this or that. He’s just in a situation that he doesn’t have a clue how to handle! Our entire family is appalled that a baby is being subjected to this.
We are NOT the type of family that will turn our backs on our flesh and blood. Not the baby no matter how many special needs it may have NOR my son!
And, the other thing is that I had GIVEN UP on getting my son to talk to me in person and alone! And, now, he says he really NEEDS to talk to me and I plan to listen and if he needs help with guidance, I’ll HELP him figure out who he needs to talk to. And, if her father cares enough to buy the baby crib and all the other items that she has asked him to buy for her and the baby, then he ought to be willing to INSIST that the out patient treatment center that she is skipping out on appointments with recommend to the state that she be placed in a residential treatment center AND HE pay for it where she can be monitored 24/7 until the baby is born. Thanks for the hug, MiLo! I can assure you all of one thing, being involved with an spath romantically was a heck of a lot easier than being involved with THIS! Of course, I didn’t have any children with my spath…good thing or you all would have seen ME featured someday on Deadly Women! That’s a joke…people…I’m not going to hurt anyone but knowing that an innocent little baby is being subjected to this crap is the MOST difficult thing that me or anyone in my family has ever had to deal with. It’s SICK!
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Ox Drover says:
Good luck, Tami, it sounds like this is going to be your “entertainment” for a while, like maybe the next 18 years. Sounds like this gal is a big problem, and I hope that your son will be able to take the baby and “run” and that he will “stay runned” away from her. I sincerely hope the state does follow through, but I don’t have a lot of confidence in the family courts actually following through. Keep us posted. God bless.
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Louise says:
Tami:
Thank you for confirming what I had heard about people who drink a lot and sweets.
My question is…what if the baby isn’t even your son’s? Is he planning on having a paternity test and does he still want the baby if it’s not his? Curious about this.
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tami says:
If the baby isn’t my son’s, then as someone suggested above, it will be placed with a family who desires and is equipped to tend to a child with special needs…unless the sister of the gf expresses the desire to care for the child. As I’ve stated before, I’m not jumping up and down to help care for another child at my age nor certainly to raise one but I will HELP with the child if it is my son’s.
I didn’t used to have a lot of faith in social services, either; however, the state of Tennessee and especially the small county where we reside has just recently started really cracking down on the mother’s of babies born with addictions. For one thing, the police is now prosecuting the mother’s to the fullest extent of the law…felony endangerment which carries a prison sentence and murder if the baby dies. The ob/gyns and social services also have obligations to fill and are being held accountable by the law…at least in OUR county and most of the surrounding counties. We’ve now had two charges brought against mothers who delivered drug addicted babies in our county within less than 6 weeks. And, sadly for the baby, one was a murder charge. Every few days, the local newspaper is printing articles stressing the seriousness of the problem and special police officers have been assigned to focus on ensuring that charges are being brought against mother’s whose babies are born addicted as well as parents with minor children who have addictions or domestic violence in the household. There has been a tremendous outcry for help with the drug problem from the people of our county and several surrounding counties. The demands of the people were too strong to be ignored by the police. The spath gf is addicted and pregnant at a time when the police are determined to prove themselves to the people. Also, most doctor’s in our area have stopped prescribing narcotics…some don’t prescribe them at all while others will only prescribe them on a temporary basis to fit the patient’s needs due to serious injuries or surgeries. However, we still have the problem of those who go to doctors out of state and bring them back here to sell.
It’s just been within the last couple of years that a child is now automatically removed from a household where a domestic violence incident has occurred between two parents. And, the children don’t even have to be present when the incident occurs. Of course, a primary concern about this is that an abused spouse will be less reluctant to call the police when he/she is an abusive situation. Also, these children are being returned to the parents after attending anger management and parenting classes or if the abuser is removed from the home, the children are left with the abused parent which I don’t feel is a very good idea. The families are monitored for some time afterwards but I’m not sure how closely. So, no, social services is far from perfect. However, they are encouraging other people to report any incidences that they know of while ensuring anonymity.
Oxy, yes I know that I will have my hands full if I end up either assuming responsibility for this child’s care or even agreeing to help my son. But, now that he and I are communicating again, I’m starting to get a much better idea of how this all came about. My biggest mistake was believing ANYTHING the spath gf ever said and my son is also realizing that he should have never believed anything she said, either. He seems to have finally taken charge of the situation and has stopped allowing her to control it or him. For now, I have to assume it is because he caught her lying to him about meeting the conditions that have been required of her. He plans to come down tomorrow night after work to talk to me…he has now requested that my husband be present…his stepfather of a little more than two years. Not sure what to expect but will let you all know.
Louise, menopausal women CAN crave alcohol, too! Strange how our bodies can be!
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Louise says:
tami:
Haha, is menopause my excuse for wanting a drink?
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tami says:
Louise, it could be a good excuse…I guess! But, I have read that several different places. And, I have noticed that I have many more menopausal cravings than I had when I was pregnant! I’ve developed an appetite for things I’ve never even liked before!
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Louise says:
tami:
I agree…funny, isn’t it??
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tami says:
Oxy!!!
Oh geez, please allow me to eat my words! You couldn’t have been MORE right! Give yourself a HUGE pat on the back! Found out by total accident last night that the spath gf was pregnant in mid April and was fully aware of it! Strange, one of his friends contacted me to ask if the baby was here yet. I told her that he was now saying that it wasn’t due until late February. She told me no way…said she remembered very clearly that he told her about the pregnancy on HER birthday which was April 20th and they had known for certain for a week then. My son told me that she MIGHT be pregnant on May 8th and didn’t confirm the pregnancy with the family until late May! No way this baby can belong to my son and he surely knows it! He’s NOT stupid! Well, yes! Maybe he IS stupid! I might consider it admirable of him to want to raise a child knowing that it isn’t his if it’s mother wasn’t a spath, pathological lying, crazy drug addict! He can’t even do anything with HER, how does he expect to take care of her AND a baby? Oh well, it’s his problem!
He’s FINALLY coming down tonight to exchange Christmas gifts. Right after “Merry Christmas, son”, I WILL tell him that I will NOT support him in this and not to come crying to me when he’s stuck paying 18 years of child support! I’ve tried to be patient with him because all of us here have been love bombed or under the spell of a spath and we didn’t see it right away. I remember trying to warn the gal that my ex spath husband left me for and got absolutely NOWHERE because she was going to believe HIM no matter what! But, he finally let her see who he really was and then she realized that I was being truthful with her all along.
It won’t do any good to try to warn my son…he’s under her spell and will have to learn the hard way just like the rest of us but I don’t have to be supportive of it. I made it clear to him last night that he is NOT to bring her tonight. She is not welcome and never will be. And, I’ve scheduled my surgery…the vanity one…and I’m quite certain I will be recovering when the baby is born and unable to go to the hospital but I wouldn’t be going anyway now.
Now, that I KNOW this child isn’t his…SO much of ALL the other confusing statements and constant due date changes now make perfect sense. SHE can take me for an idiot ALL she wants but I will NOT permit my own son to do that to me! If he wants a baby THAT bad, he should at least go to the doctor and make darn certain that he’s sterile before he willingly involves himself in a mess like this! After this baby is born, he’ll probably fool around and REALLY get her pregnant with HIS child!
I’m having my vanity surgery the second week of January, allowing myself around 6 weeks for recovery and then my husband and I are taking our first vacation in the plane…he’s a pilot…we have a plane (much more comfortable and faster than the last two Harley vacations) and we plan to be away for a month! I can’t wait!
Oxy (and others), you’re brilliant! Please forgive my resistance!
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Ox Drover says:
Tami,
Sugar I hvae fallen for more psychopathic love bombs than a honey bee! LOL No apology necessary and I definitely understand!
I know it is difficult to admit that the child we love and were so hopeful for grew up to be a dysfunctional ______ (fill in the blank) whether it is psychopathic or not, as long as they willingly engage in all of this pathological drama rama stuff, we cannot have a reasonable and close relationship with them.
I’m not sure what your son’s goal is in all this “game” he is involved with….maybe it is to get the kid and then get rid of her, but if that is his game, I doubt that it is going to work (in the first place) because in a custody fight the DNA test she would demand would knock him out of the running for custodial parent, and in the second place, she’;s going to be attached to that kid like a leech and use it like a pawn for the rest of its life In addition to which, there’s a darned good chance this child will be a special needs child due to brain damage done by drugs while she was pregnant.
Tami, I am so glad that you have finally “seen the light” about this whole nasty situation. You can’t help your son any more than I could help my son C. C isn’t a psychopath, but he is involved in one “drama” after another, and isn’t going to change his pattern any more than the psychopath is.
I hope you and your husband have a good trip in your plane and just be careful with flying in the winter weather. Let us know when you get back! (((hugs)))) Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
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DUPED NO MORE! says:
“Embracing changes which serve you can be uncomfortable, because the first step is always admitting and facing the truth that change is required to move forward.”
I found that above quote somewhere, while reading this morning and thought it profound and wanted to share.
Happy Thursday and Happy Holidays everyone.
My thoughts and prayers are with you all.
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Ox Drover says:
Dupey, thanks for that quote! That was very uplifting this morning! Happy holidays to you too, sweetie!
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tami says:
Oxy and all,
Well, my son came down to get his gifts. He looks great! He’s gained some weight but is not overweight, his complexion is clear (he’s had psoriasis since he was very young), looks very healthy and the most strikingly handsome I’ve seen him look in a long time. Even my husband commented on his handsomeness. He said something about hearing a lot of that lately and that apparently, he should have given up drinking years ago. He commented that he felt much better but would like to drop a few pounds before he looks like the rest of the family. Everyone on my father’s side of the family is extremely overweight and he seems to have grabbed their genes. However, he looks absolutely miserable at the same time! We spent 2 hours with him and my husband and I both noted that he didn’t smile even ONCE! He was pleased with his gifts, clothes and an IPad, and tried them on immediately to make sure they fit. I also noticed that he ripped the tags off after trying on each item. That told me that at least he had no intentions of returning them or allowing her to. He thanked, hugged and told us that he loved us…said that he really needed some clothes since he had put on weight and that he really liked my selections.
We then sat down for our talk. He started out by saying that he wanted to apologize to me for all the years of worry that he had put me through with his drinking and apologized to my husband for the time that he had “dealt” with him. He also apologized for developing a pill problem in addition but assured me that it was something that he had only allowed to happened over the last few months. He updated us on his treatment and said that he was down to a very low dose of suboxone and felt he was just about ready to stop it completely. He said the girlfriend was prescribed 3 X the amount he was and he had no idea when she’d ever be able to stop. He said he had weaned himself but she hadn’t been able to and the clinic hadn’t really encouraged her to because her withdrawal would put additional stress on the baby and could cause her to go into labor. He said he felt that he could have probably cleaned himself up without any treatment if he hadn’t of had to work. Said there was no way that he could work and withdraw at the same time because it just made him too sick and he feared that his employer would recognize that he was in withdrawal…talked about sweat dripping off him, etc. Also, he told us that she had lost her job a good while back and he couldn’t afford to miss work and that he is also up for another promotion the first of the year and wants to prove his reliability in order to get it.
He said that he had stopped seeing the counselor because of the expense and felt that the NA groups were more beneficial to him. He said that he had really met some messed up people in the meetings that had provided him with a glimpse into his future. He said, in his opinion, that the counselor was charging him a fortune and trying to help him come up with EXCUSES for his drinking and drug use by blaming it on his childhood, bad relationships, missed opportunities, etc. whereas the NA counselors and the senior members stressed that everyone there had a problem because they chose to have one and even if their problem had stemmed from trauma or genetics that it was they, themselves, who chose alcohol or drugs to handle their problems and even if drug and alcohol problems ran in their families that they STILL had a choice. And, it was up to them to fix it. No blame games.
I asked if the gf was in any kind of counseling or attending any meetings. He said no, not yet, and that she used the excuse that she feared she’d see someone that she knew. He said he had tried to encourage her by telling her that there were lots of people there that he knew and was surprised by some of the people that had developed problems over the years. He said seeing people there that he knew actually helped him not feel like such a “loser” and lessened the shame to some degree. And, had even told her she certainly wouldn’t be the only pregnant woman there. He didn’t mention the name but told me about another “brain child” that he had attended school with that had been to a few of the meetings that he didn’t even recognize at first and said that the “dude” didn’t even make sense when he talked, was rail thin and appeared as though he might just die any moment. He said it was really sad and that he rambled on about his parents getting a divorce 20 years ago and how THEY had ruined his life. He said the counselors nor the group couldn’t change his focus no matter how hard they tried and that he’d just get up and leave the meeting. At any rate, he seemed very sincere and said that the NA meetings is where you REALLY see what drugs and alcohol will do to a person and not sitting across the desk from a counselor. Actually, I thought he made pretty good sense. It was a rare thing for him to drink with friends. He usually always drank at home alone so I’m glad he’s getting some exposure and interaction with others who have a drinking problem.
We then went on to discuss the attacks the girlfriend had made on us and offered to show him some of the texts. He told me that he knew I wouldn’t lie to him and that he knew better than anyone how she could lie and she talked so much that he just tuned her out most of the time! Two things that we told him about seemed to make him livid…one was sending me the “life and death” text messages while she was at work and I was sleeping concerning him in which she told me that he was crying for me and telling me that it was urgent that I get to him and a matter of life and death. And, the other was when he learned that she had been calling his ex-wife. He admitted that he knew she had borrowed and continued to ask for money but said that he was hearing most of these things for the first time and had no idea that she could be cruel enough to make me fear for his life or crazy enough to call his pill head ex-wife. YES! He divorced her because of HER drug problem. That’s why I was SO surprised to learn that he had developed one! I asked him why he felt that she would do either of these things. He said the only thing that he could think of was that she knew that I’d be asleep and wouldn’t get the texts and maybe it was her way of covering her own drug problem. Or, she was either at work totally wasted and did it for meanness. He said he honestly had no idea. He assured me that if he had of asked her to contact me as she had said that he would have insisted that she call in addition to the texts to get me to him if he had of needed me badly enough to CRY for me. He said that he KNEW it sometimes took more than one phone call to wake me up and that I certainly wasn’t going to wake up for a text! I also told him that she giggled to me about the texts later. He also said that she was probably contacting his ex looking for pills because he had told her all about HER pill problem when he first started seeing her and before he realized that SHE had a problem. He asked if I knew WHEN she had talked to the ex and I told him no. He commented that he was now beginning to understand how she was spending her time when he was at work and why the house was always dirty.
He then asked if he could come back today and talk more. He said he wouldn’t be tired after working nor concerned with getting home early to rest up for the next work day. We told him yes. He told us if she called not to mention that we had talked to him about these things until we could finish our conversation. We told him if she called, we were NOT answering the phone! He also asked us to think of everything we could and told me that he wanted to know what I had learned about her history. I told him that I had learned a lot earlier but we got caught up in talking about his treatment, etc.
So, here we are again. I asked my husband how he felt about our discussion as he was mostly an observer. He said that he honestly believes that my son is every bit as unaware of her “other” side as we were our ex spath’s other sides. He said that he noticed that he had a hard time looking at us when he talked about his drug problem but that his head shot up to full attention and was looking us straight in the face when he started hearing the things that she had done. I’m not ready to let him off the hook just yet. That will depend on how he responds to the situation now that he is being made aware of what she is capable of. He didn’t try to defend her and he really did seem surprised and extremely annoyed. My husband and I have agreed that if he starts defending her, that’s when we will stop educating him.
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Ox Drover says:
Well, Tami, I’m glad the conversations went well….I agree when he starts defending her, he is no longer listening.
Interesting point you made though….this is the SECOND pill head he has been involved with (ex-wife + this one) so he has a PATTERN of hooking up with addiction prone women and/or psychopathic ones. It sounds like his “counselor” wasn’t a good fit, and I’m glad he is going to NA or AA because the “no excuses” is how he must function to beat the addiction.
I hope things go well with the after work talk. Let us know how it goes. Merry Christmas eve!
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StraightUp says:
I recently got out of a relationship with a man I know for sure is a sociopath.
Our relationship started in May and he told me that it was just me and him. I gave him everything. I gave him my heart, my soul, my time, my money, everything. I was completely committed to him and he knew that. My feelings for him were very deep. Along the way, there were so many inconsistencies and problems. Every time we had a disagreement, he would always threaten to leave (even though 95 percent of the time, he was the cause of the problem). He never let me meet his family. He was always very protective over his phone and I sensed he was hiding something. So many questions. Things didn’t add up. I had a GUT feeling something was wrong, but I just couldn’t prove it. I didn’t have evidence.
Recently, just a few days ago, I did an internet search on his name. Nothing came up. I thought, “That’s strange. Most people have some kind of presence on the internet.” So I tried his mother’s name, thinking I could find out about him through her. I did, and I ended up finding a lot.
I ended up finding out that the name he gave me was false. I ended up finding that he was born in 1977, not 1983 like he told me. Worst of all, he was married with three kids. I found this out through a website that also had pictures of him with his arms around her, him with his kids, and him, his wife, and kids together.
That night I confronted him with this information. I printed out all the info I had on his real name, his birth date, and other information. I printed out the pictures of his wife and kids. I printed out the page that said his wife and kids were married. I even printed out the obituary of his wife’s father, who had just died one month ago while we were together. He told me the woman was his sister and those boys were his nephews. And then he exploded, shifting it on me and making me feel bad for not trusting him. “How could you do that to me? You don’t trust me? I told you, some things you just don’t talk about. You have to leave things alone. If I say I don’t want to talk about my family, respect that.’ He tried making me feel so bad for what I’d done. He also threatened to leave and said, “I swear to God, if you ever do something like that again, I’ll leave you.”
The next day, I got a hold of his wife after searching for a way to contact her. I told her everything. As I tried to speak to her, he came into the room asking who she was speaking to and after she told him that I was on the phone telling her I was dating him, he physically would not let her speak to me. She told me she would call me back, and later that night, we resumed our conversation and I told her everything.
Afterwards, he texted me incessantly calling me a ‘stupid ass bitch’, threatening me that his family would beat me up. He told me he knew where I lived and he would cause problems. He also called my home numerous times. I ended up going to the police for my safety.
After all is said and done, I’m left with hurt. The wife is left with hurt. His kids
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Ox Drover says:
Straight up,
I do not doubt that the man was a psychopath….I applaud you for contacting his wife. If she did not know, she deserved to know.
I’m sorry you experienced such a con job, and I hope that you will hang around LoveFraud and learn and heal. Knowledge is power, and we must take back our power! We must learn to listen to our guts and not be vulnerable to the “love bombs” that they mask their real intentions with.
God bless. And again, welcome to Lovefraud.
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bluejay says:
StraightUp,
Wow! I am SO glad that you went with your gut and figured out that the man is a fraud. The truth about him is upsetting, but thankfully, you are free of this low-life. These people just amaze me – what they will do to others absolutely floors me still, the level of deceit.
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StraightUp says:
(Continuing)….
After all is said and done, I’m left with hurt. His wife is left with hurt. His kids are left with hurt. Every waking moment now, my thoughts are directed to this. I cried throughout the whole day yesterday. I told my family everything and they feel the pain, too. I woke up this morning thinking, “I dated a monster. I dated a man who was actually married and three kids.” Wow, I still can’t believe it. At this point, there is no going back. I wish things were different, I did care for him a lot, but there’s no turning back from the realization that this man lied.
For someone to do that to another human being, there is no other word for him other than ‘sociopath’. He has no heart and soul. I’m wishing for an apology from him, a realization that, “Wow, I hurt that girl.” But I don’t expect one, at least not soon.
I spoke to a counselor after filing a police report, and he told me not to blame myself. Yes, I should have listened to my gut and I should do that in the future, but this guy is a professional con. People like this exist. To normal people like you and I, it is hard to fathom that people aren’t kind, but evil exists. It truly does and it shocks the heart of those who have a heart. All I can say is learn from this and move forward. Be strong, be insightful. Listen to your gut feelings. Be an advocate for those who have been hurt, too. After this, I learned how much people care for me. My family, my friends, who I neglected for him, have been there for me and are supporting me. They’re helping me get through this. Appreciate the people around you who truly care.
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StraightUp says:
Thanks for all the welcomes and positive comments. I’m so glad I learned the truth about him. The truth hurts, but not knowing is worse. It’s going to be hard after touching so much evil, but I’ll get through this. I think we all can.
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Stargazer says:
Straightup, I feel so much for you. This takes me back to 2008 when I went through something somewhat similar. I also was not aware of sociopaths at the time and didn’t know about the red flags. It’s good that you got out relatively quickly – less than a year, though I know it’s no consolation. Healing from something like this is incredibly painful and it takes a while. Be very very kind to yourself and just let the hurt be. You’ve been traumatized, and are probably still in shock. You will want closure, but you will not get it from him. Even if he were to apologize, he wouldn’t be sincere. I’m sending you a big hug. You will get through it and you will be all the wiser for your experience.
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tami says:
Oxy, to answer your question about whether there is a pattern to my son getting involved with drug users and/or sociopaths. I’m not sure how to answer that. For one thing, he has only been in what could be considered 3 serious relationships. He was with the ex-wife from the time he was 18, they got married when he was around 26, agreed to split up for a couple of years and then got back together for a couple of years. He had a relationship with another girl during the time they were separated that I really liked. The two of them moved from Tennessee to upstate New York where her mother lived and were up there for over a year and seemed to do really well. He and the wife stayed in touch somewhat and planned to divorce when he moved back to Tennessee. The move to New York started out as a visit but he really liked it so the girlfriend agreed to stay for a limited amount of time herself. She prefers Tennessee. They moved back to Tennessee and the wife had just discovered that she was pregnant! Not by my son but by the first guy that she went out with and it turned into a one night stand. At some point during the separation, the wife had totally stopped drinking but then developed the pill problem. Her pill problem started out with a regular prescription for neck pain that she suffered from after breaking her neck in an automobile accident some years before. Within a year of getting the script, she was abusing them and buying them off the street in addition to getting her monthly script. Not sure how it happened but he and the wife got back together. He wanted to “help” her through her pregnancy. Said he felt that it was his fault that she got pregnant. Her parents are very old-fashioned and her pregnancy was simply unacceptable especially since she was still legally married to my son. She cleaned up as soon as she learned she was pregnant and only took the amount of pain medication that her doctor prescribed and told her was safe for the baby. My son also helped her wean off of an anti-depressant that was unsafe her to take when she was pregnant. She seemed to have a more difficult with the antidepressant that she did with the pain pills. He just kept sneaking and emptying a little more out of her capsules every day, allowed her to take capsules filled with powered sugar for 3 days and then told her what he had done. So, that was the end of the AD. The baby was born, her parents melted upon the sight of it, my son fell in love with the child, stopped drinking and then the wife started back on the pills when the baby was around a year old. Her addiction was WORSE than before the baby was born. She lost her job and pretty much hit rock bottom. And, her mother kept giving her her father’s pain medication because she would whine about her neck hurting all the time. My son tried to tell her mother that she had a problem but she wouldn’t believe it. She not only continued to give her father’s meds to her but also gave her money anytime she asked for it which she used to buy more pills. My son finally called her mother, told her he couldn’t deal with it, to use their money to get her some help with and that was that. They got a divorce. He was EXTREMELY hurt over the baby, though. The wife had told him that she’d always allow him to see the baby no matter what and of course that was all talk. He started drinking again, ended up with a DUI and living with me and my husband. He dated another girl for a little while that didn’t have any substance issues, had two sons, her own home, etc. He couldn’t deal with how she interacted with her children and frankly, neither could I. She wasn’t physically abusive of them but was extremely verbally abusive. She screamed at them and told them how miserable they made her. Her verbal attacks on them seemed to come from nowhere…not when they were acting up…they were afraid to move. He attempted to talk to her about it and she screamed at him! LOL! He didn’t see her for very long at all and said he didn’t think he could ever deal with her screaming…especially at the kids. She definitely had issues but I’m not sure what they were…wasn’t around long enough. A couple of months went by and he started seeing the girl he is with now. He went out with her and never came back…moved in with her immediately and then within 6 weeks, we’re told “they” are having a baby. So, I don’t really know if he has a pattern of getting involved with sociopaths. I don’t really think the ex-wife is a sociopath…although she had a substance problem. The last I heard, she had been clean for a good while. The girlfriend that I was so fond of and he are still friends and she visits me quite often. She went back to school, got her degree and is doing really well for herself. And, I suppose the other gal is still somewhere screaming at her kids. The girl he is with now reminds me a lot of the ex-wife…they both had pity stories to tell and latched onto him with all their might. The girl that I’m so fond of is an extremely intelligent girl with no pity story. And, the screaming gal didn’t seem to have a pity story to tell but seem to hate her children’s father so much that she doesn’t even like her own children because they are a part of him and she now believes that every man is JUST like their father…except for her own father. She DID complain a lot about their father although they’ve been divorced for over 6 years. I guess unlike Forrest and his box of chocolates, my son’s life is a can of mixed nuts!
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skylar says:
Tami
All the details in your son’s stories seem to gel into a pattern: drama and roller coasters and triangulation, mixed with pills and alcohol.
It really doesn’t matter what the details are – they change from one day to the next. What matters is that you don’t participate in it. Your emotions will be on a roller coaster ride until you decide to get off. I don’t know if you noticed but each of your posts swings 180 degrees the opposite from the last. First you are angry at your son, then he is a hero, then he’s a liar, then he’s a martyr, etc…
That’s a roller coaster. There are people who are addicted to drama and your son is one of those IMO. Unfortunately, when we are in contact or emotionally invested in a person like that, we also become drama addicts. At first it’s not our intent, we are dragged in to it unawares. Then, after being in that situation for a period of time, our bodies get accustomed to the drama and we feel “empty” without it. That’s where the addiction begins.
Spaths are unable to ever overcome this feeling of being “empty” when they aren’t getting attention or drama. That’s why they can’t stand to be around boring people and it’s why they create hell and misery for everyone around them – they LOVE IT.
We need to detach from people who are drama addicts. Whether they are spaths or they have been slimed by spaths, it doesn’t matter because either way, they will slime you with their drama and make you an addict too.
This is the reason we use NC and gray rock. Only by not feeding them any of our emotions can we protect ourselves from becoming their supply.
Your son will not be able to become “normal” while he is with that woman. It is impossible. But even if she disappeared overnight, history shows that he would just go find more drama with another drama queen. Time to protect yourself, Tami. We can’t save the world, we can only save ourselves.
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Ox Drover says:
Tami, I would say that is a DYSFUNCTIONAL PATTERN of relationships is a pattern with him from 18 on….he is playing the “musical chairs” of the triangulation of “victim-rescuer-persecutor.” He is also involved in a tremendous amount of “drama” and while he may “want” a child, his manner of securing a child by “adopting” the child of his wife by another man or by the child of a girl he picks up is pretty twisted and dysfunctional. It doesn’t sound to me that he is mature or responsible at all, but keeps trying to “save” first the ex wife, then the current GF with lots of going back and forth….
There are always “excuses” of why someone starts on pills, alcohol or street drugs….disappointments in life, etc. but they are still CHOICES and as far as our relationships go, your son has made some pretty “dramatic” and “dysfunctional” relationships I think, and I don’t see any functional ones that lasted very long.
I would suggest that you encourage him to get his own “sheet together” before he takes on trying to “save” someone else. It sounds like his first wife came from the same enabling, drama filled, “victim-rescuer-persecutor” back ground, with her mom feeding her pills.
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Constantine says:
Straightup,
Welcome. So sorry to hear you went through that. I know something about this, though, as I experienced the same thing myself. (Mine was married too, with one kid. I knew nothing about it. And believe it or not, we were actually “engaged.”) In any case, it’s been such a long time (half a decade, give or take), that I almost forget the grief I felt back then. But every time someone comes here with the same story, it reminds me how awful and hopeless it really was. Unfortunately, since mine was female (technically at least!) there wasn’t much I could do about it, other than call the husband. But after reading your story, I can only regret that there isn’t a good “old school” male in your family, who could go and beat this guy within an inch of his life! (Some things are worth going to jail for, Straightup.)
I know what a bad state you must be in right now. But as an immediate precaution, I would recommend getting a digital recorder in case he calls and makes more threats (put your cell on “speaker” and record the whole conversation); likewise, save any treatening e-mails or texts and take them to the police. “No Contact” is the best policy, but if you can get him quickly and without too much effort, then I say go for it.
He does sound like a sociopath. Aside from the major con of pretending he wasn’t married, the fact that he lied about his age by six years or whatever, is also a tell. Especially since there was probably no reason for it. (Sociopaths often lie where the truth would work better. – And the devil’s often found in the details….) At any rate, you probably got to the heart of the matter when you said, “No one but a sociopath could have done this.” It’s hard to say for sure with such sketchy details, but from what you’ve posted, I’m thinking your conclusion is very likely correct.
By the way, there is one thing that you wrote which is just plain off the mark. You said, “I don’t expect an apology. At least not soon.” Well, trust me, Straightup, you aren’t EVER going to get an apology! At least not one that has the slightest trace of sincerity or meaning. Indeed, he could never have done this in the first place, if he was EVEN REMOTELY CAPABLE OF REMORSE. To hope for anything good or real or human out of such an individual, means simply that some small part of you still hasn’t quite “gotten it.” (Though it sounds like the majority of you has – and that’s commendable this early on.) As time progresses, you will have even more “realizations” about the depth of his depravity. Really, for as bad as you think it is now, it is probably much worse than you suppose. With sociopaths, the reality is often not only worse than we imagine: it is worse than we CAN imagine.
Anyhow, as you’ve reminded me, it’s really horrid – what you’re going through. I don’t think anything hurts so much. By most people’s standards, I’m pretty tough and masculine. And yet that was the one time in my adult life when I cried (tears were running down my cheeks for many hours…) In fact, I’m quite certain that I wouldn’t wish such an experience on my worst enemy. (Well, I guess she IS my worst enemy, so I take that back!)
Nevertheless, it is kind of funny in retrospect (Comedy is just Tragedy plus Time): How utterly vile, disgusting and contemptible she now appears to me; and more importantly, how completely meaningless she has become to my life. In short – and with the perspective of half a decade – all I can do now is blush when I think that I actually wept over such a vapid monstrosity. (“Gollum with boobs”, as I like to think of her!) Yes, Straightup, some things you can just never live down.
That also reminds me. It used to be our “tradition” (since childhood, when we first met) that wherever we were in the world, we would always think of each other on Christmas Eve. Well, I guess I’m technically still fulfilling that. But only in the ironic sense, because now my thoughts are so indifferent, that I wouldn’t give a bucket of warm spit to save her life!
To add further irony, as I was typing the above (literally), I just got a text message from my current girlfriend (very good looking, by the way, completely out of the sociopath’s league!) saying, “Merry Christmas, my sweet C. – Lots of love.”
Haha, so the S. is still (I’m assuming) living her pathetic charade of a family life with no love on either side, and lots of fear and clinging and neurosis all around. And for my part, well, there’s no longer any question who got the better deal!
May it be the same for you, Straightup. It will take a long long time, but have no doubt that you will eventually find happiness again.
Merry Christmas to you and to all my other friends here.
C.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Merry Christmas Everyone. Wishing you peace, health and prosperity in 2012.
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Hens says:
Ho ho ho, to you onesteprs!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
who you callin’ a ho?!
snort.
all the best, hens – i hope that 2012 brings you more friends and love than you know what to do with.
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tami says:
Stargazer & Oxy: Yep, the more I think about it my son has always been out to save the felt he could help someone. I’m kind of like that, too. People have always approached me with their problems but I’ve never even considered developing a problem just like theirs! I might have had a similar one in the past or have once been in the same situation as that person which allows me to identify with them but if a friend of mine talks about a marital problem with me, I don’t suddenly decide that I have marital problems, too! And, I had an ex-brother-in-law who had a terrible drug problem that approached me to help him find a treatment center that would accept him without insurance but I didn’t suddenly decide that I needed to use drugs, too! My son has a younger first cousin on his father’s side that he fairly close to. The cousin just told me the other day that my son allows the women he are with to influence him too much. I agreed and now that I think about it, he allows ALL the WRONG people to influence him too much! I’ve often wondered over the years what happened to my son, the leader, that made him become such a follower. He was dang near the perfect kid until he hit his late teens. I kept waiting on that kid to come back but have finally just about given up.
And, I agree, I’m ALL over the place where he’s concerned. My gut tells me things and I share them with you all and then he tells me something that convinces me that my gut is wrong. But my gut is usually always right and every time I’ve ignored it, I’ve regretted it.
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Ox Drover says:
Tami, I agree, LISTEN TO YOUR GUT.
I am also a “fixer”—but it is not a good thing to be, and my pity for others is my down fall.
Sometimes Kids change at puberty and go down the wrong road, and your son seems to have been on that “wrong road” for quite some time now, most of his adult life.
HE is the only one that can get off that road and get on to the right one, and HE HAS TO DECIDE to do it….when you LIE DOWN WITH DOGS, YOU GET UP WITH FLEAS.
Whatever his emotional problems are, he is sleeping with the dogs, and he sure has the fleas, and the “self medication” with the alcohol and the drugs is not the answer, but JUST GETTING OFF THE DRUGS AND ALCOHOL is not the only answer either, he needs some therapy for the OTHER issues.
I wish you could save him, Tami, but you can’t save him, only he can…. Hope your Christmas day was merry!
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Stargazer says:
Tami, you may be able to “save” your son from this woman, but it doesn’t fix his problem of being too dependent on others in general – in fact just the opposite – it enables him to shift his dependency from her back to you. And what happens next time? And the next? The fact that he waffles back and forth shows that he really has a hard time standing on his own two feet and making his own decisions. I stand by my previous statement that it does him a disservice to step in and try to save him. From an outside perspective, I think the healthy response would be to DEMONSTRATE healthy boundaries by saying to him: “I love you but as long as you are involved with a sociopath, I must distance myself, because it’s too toxic for me, and I need to take care of MYSELF.” I think showing him that YOU have boundaries may just jar him into thinking, “Wow, my mom is taking care of herself. Guess it’s up to ME to take care of myself.” Or it may not. Either way, you will stop enabling him, which is good for you. Otherwise, you will always be an escape valve for him when he screws up or can’t make a decision.
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callmeathena says:
Straightup,
So he’s blaming you for his lies.
And then he’s going to come and try to get you back. He’ll deny it, or come up with some excuse, or pretend none of it ever happened.
He doesn’t want to give you up. BE WARNED.
You’re going to miss him and want him back, but you only think you do, because you fell in love with A FANTASY. When you look at WHO HE REALLY IS, you will want to THROW UP.
Keep the REAL DICKHEAD iIN YOUR MIND.
Welcome to LF.
Athena
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tami says:
Stargazer & Oxy,
LOL! Just gave a good friend of mine who is going through a mid-life crisis the SAME advice regarding paths to choose! Also, just told my husband earlier that I was going to have to save myself from this situation. My mother also called earlier and was telling me about spending time with my son and the spath on Christmas Eve. I tried to cut my mother off by telling her that I really didn’t want to hear anything that the spath had to say about anything because every word that came out of the girl’s mouth is a lie. Mom continued to talk. Said the spath was speaking well of me, told her that I’d bought my son a lot of really nice clothes for Christmas, commented that he was wearing one of the outfits, blah, blah, blah. That’s when I cut her off! I asked her WHY she was talking to me as though she was surprised that I would buy my son, HER grandson, nice clothes for Christmas when he was 31 years old and I had ALWAYS bought him nice clothes and Christmas gifts? She said she didn’t know and that she was just telling me what the girl said. I told her that I didn’t care what the girl said and called to my mother’s attention that she had spent a couple of hours around the girl and could tell that she had sucked her into her world far enough that after 31 years, even she was was acting surprised that I would be generous to my son! I reminded my mother that the reason this spath had cursed my husband and me and banned my son from talking to us was because we refused to give her any more money once we learned that it was being used for drugs and that she had accused me of putting money before my son. I reminded my mother that the girl had once had my husband and me convinced that her father was a greedy old man that put money before his loved ones and later learned from the father that it was simply because he had cut her off when he learned that she had a drug problem and then she had stolen money from him! So, of course, she has to keep the facade going by acting “surprised” that I would actually let go of my “greed” by buying my son gifts for Christmas and now I was hearing my own mother react with the same surprise! I asked my mom if she could NOW see how this girl twists things around in a way that she can manage to get people to doubt their own better judgement! My mom then stated that we were a small family and she really wished that I would bend a little in order for us to spend more family time together and stated the more that I tried to make my son “choose” between the gf and myself, the farther I was pushing him away! I reminded Mom that I wasn’t very pleased with my son’s ex-wife, but during the 10+ years that he was with her, I had never refused to spend family time with her. I told my mother that I just could NOT stomach the idea of even laying eyes on this girl because I know what she is. I reminded my mother that I am a people person and a very tolerant person and that the only other time in my life that I’d ever felt that I never wanted to lay eyes on someone was my ex spath husband. I told her that spaths have this kind of effect on a person. My mother then went onto to tell me that the spath had a new ultrasound of the baby that she had forgotten to bring her but said that the baby’s eyes were more visable in this one and that she believed it was going to have big eyes like my son and I have! The ultrasounds that she has been having are not the new 3-D ultrasounds but the old fashion ones where the babies all look like little aliens with huge eyes. It’s difficult to even FIND the baby in these things. I asked my mom to please sit up and take notice to how she has went overboard to tell us that the baby looks like my son from the time it was a tiny blob! Haven’t heard a single word about the baby having any traits of our own! My mother then asked me what I was going to do about my relationship with my son. I asked her what HE was going to do about his relationship with me? I told her that the best that I could hope for is that he realizes that he’s involved with a sociopath and rather than choosing to tune out her lies as he told me that he does, that he starts to see the adverse affect they are having on his family relationships. I then told my mother that I might be willing to spend more time with her (my mother) when she stops feeling sorry for this girl and allowing her to convince her that I am the problem! My parents are in their 70s and have a nice estate that is willed to my son and me. I’m sure my son has shared this info with the spath. I told mom that this girl was working her way towards that and if she or my step father get sick, to PLEASE not allow this girl to medicate or care for them just because she claims to be a nurse because one elderly person that she had hoped to cash in on had already suddenly fallen ill and passed away under her care! My mom said that was a pretty harsh statement on my part. I then asked my mom if she would trust her to take care of her. My mother’s answer was NO.
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