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Are they just evil people?

Friday, 29 June 2007 @ 9:25am • My Weblog

An evil person is one who exploits or harms most everyone he/she encounters; the question of the utmost importance is do evil people share certain personality characteristics? Perhaps personality type has nothing to do with evil. We all know that every person has made bad moral choices at one time or another so perhaps people who repeatedly make bad moral choices are no different than anyone else.

There are many reasons to consider whether evil people have a special or different personality type. For Lovefraud readers, the best reason is to define and learn to recognize a group of people to avoid.

The assertion that evil people share a common personality type has profound philosophical and practical implications. This assertion implies that while occasionally doing evil is part of all of us, repeatedly doing evil is not. But what does repeatedly mean? Shouldn’t everyone who has made a bad moral choice get a second chance? What about those who have made two bad choices? Perhaps if we can identify an evil person by his/her characteristics, then we can say that he/she should not be given another chance.

The PCLR is born

I believe it was this line of thinking that lead Dr. Robert Hare to develop his Psychopathy Checklist, now Psychopathy Checklist Revised (PCLR). He was working in the prison system and he wanted to describe the characteristics of people most likely to re-offend. He wanted to identify the evil doers.

Dr. Hare was very successful. The PCLR does identify a group of people who are likely to re-offend and who are very evil. But, somehow this attempt to define with a rating scale, a group of criminals who are most likely to re-offend has become much more. The results of this one instrument are increasingly seen as defining a personality type called psychopathy. It turns out that fancy statistics on the answers to the PCLR reveal that some of the answers group together in “factors.” These factors have become the basis for defining psychopathy itself.

The psychopathic personality is more complex than the PCLR

As Drs. Lynam and Widiger point out in their recent paper Using a general model of personality to identify the basic elements of psychopathy, “In the original derivations, the authors (Hare and colleagues) were fairly careful about referencing the factor structure of the instrument (PCLR) rather than the composition of psychopathy… Since that time, however, the measure has almost become the construct (psychopathy), and more recent authors are more likely to write about the structure of psychopathy than the structure of the instrument.”

Lynam and Widiger suggest, and I agree “that factor analyses of the PCL-R are unlikely to reveal the core components of psychopathy.” Therefore, the use of the PCLR to define the psychopathic personality is problematic. It is more useful to find out if there is indeed a “personality type” that is prone to evil. The best way to do this is to use a personality test that has been developed to understand personality in general (the NEO PI-R*, method 1), in conjunction with an inventory like the PCLR (method 2) and expert ratings (method 3). With these methods combined we can describe the personality type of those prone to evil and then extend the findings to non-criminals.

The evil personality

Using these methods, Lynam and Widiger have demonstrated that there is a personality type prone to evil. So now I will tell you who to avoid, and also more importantly who to seek out!

“We believe that these 12 traits** for which there is agreement across all three methods, constitute the core elements of psychopathy. According to these traits, psychopathy consists of extremely low agreeableness…The psychopath is cunning and manipulative, greedy and exploitive, oppositional and combative, boastful and arrogant, and callous and ruthless. Relatedly, the psychopath lacks interpersonal warmth. The psychopath is pan-impulsive, marked by the impulsive end of each of the personality pathways to impulsive behavior… The psychopath also appears immune to embarrassment and shame, potentially important emotions for the social control of behavior. Not surprisingly, the psychopath is also undependable and unethical.”

The Inner Triangle again

I believe that the three clusters of personality traits Lynam and Widiger have identified correspond to what I have called The Inner Triangle. The lack of agreeableness and warmth relate to ability to love. Identify a psychopath by his/her inability to really love and take care of others.

Identify a psychopath/sociopath by his/her poor impulse control. Lastly, psychopaths have a lack of moral emotions- embarrassment, guilt and particularly shame. This lack of moral emotions impairs moral reasoning in the psychopath/sociopath.

The combination of poor ability to love, poor impulse control and poor moral reasoning predict evil in people with narcissistic and borderline personality disorder just as these qualities cluster and predict evil in psychopaths/sociopaths.

Who to seek out

Surround yourself with people who have a well developed Inner Triangle! Love people who are warm and have a track record of self-sacrifice for others. Trust only those who can control their own impulses. Admire only those who experience embarrassment, guilt and shame. Depend only on those who are dependable. Since sociopaths/psychopaths are con artists, get proof of these qualities by first hand observation before you ascribe them to anyone.

* The NEO PI-R has been used to develop the five factor model of personality. This model can be remembered with the acronym OCEAN: O-openness to experience, C-conscientiousness, E-extraversion, A-agreeableness, N-neuroticism. Openness to experience (O: fantasy, aesthetic, feelings, actions, ideas, values), Conscientiousness (C: competence, order, dutifulness, achievement striving, self-discipline, deliberation), Extraversion (E: warmth, gregariousness, assertiveness, activity, excitement seeking, positive emotions), Agreeableness (A: trust, straightforwardness, altruism, compliance, modesty, tender mindedness), and Neuroticism (N: anxiousness, angry hostility, trait depression, self-consciousness, impulsiveness, vulnerability)
**Twelve traits were consistently identified by Lynam and Widiger as either low or high in psychopaths. The psychopath is low in 5 facets of A (Straightforwardness 1, Altruism 2, Compliance 3, Modesty 4, Tender mindedness 5, three facets of C (dutifulness 6, self-discipline 7, and deliberation 8), and one facet each of N (self-consciousness 9) and E (warmth 10); the psychopath is high in impulsiveness 11 from N and excitement seeking 12 from E.

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written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •

summerthyme says:

I’ve recently detached myself from an abusive relationship that lasted for off and on 3 yrs. I believe my father was somewhat of a sociopath. I remember him as being abusive and he didn’t seem to have remorse only to say he was sorry to my mother to get on her good side again, I am sure. There must be degrees of sociopaths obviously not all of them commit murder, but why take the chance, right. I don’t understand what went wrong with their brains. If it is biological then they are sick, not evil, right. I’m not talking about the kind of sick as in they’ll get better or that I should feel oh so sorry for him but to say that the person is evil almost makes it sound like he is possesed rather than he has a sick mind. Evil or sick, I guess it doesn’t really matter – the outcome will be pain to the person that is closest to them. It is amazing that in the beginning, I thought he was sick for lying about having cancer but I did not understand to what degree. I’m thankful for this website and all that I have learned here. I wish I would have read this a long time ago, but maybe even if I did, I would not have seen it. Fact is a lot of people told me a lot of things that I should have listened to but for whatever reason I did not. It’s almost like being hooked on a drug that you know is going to kill you but you just can’t stop. They are potent, they are masters of deception. I saw a PBS program about the Fig Tree in Africa and there is a vine that grows around it and keeps growing and wrapping itself around the tree until it finally chokes it and the tree dies. This is what living with a sociopath is like.

(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 29 June 2007 @ 10:48pm

Liane Leedom, M.D. says:

I sent the authors of the article I quoted above a note letting them know of this post. I want to share with you part of the response I received from one of them. Before I do that, I want to emphasize how appreciative I am for the response and say on behalf of all the victims of psychopaths that we are grateful for the research.

“I appreciate your interest in this work. I think the piece you wrote captures well what we said in our article. What you describe in terms of the inner triangle is interesting. I am a bit of a control theorist myself—the question is not why do some people do bad things but why doesn’t everyone? I think the answer to that question is that most people have internal and social controls that keep them in check. Most of us feel empathy for others; this holds us back from hurting them. Most people have decent impulse control which allows them to think about the potential consequences of their actions. Most people experience “moral emotions” like shame, guilt, anxiety, and embarrassment; this also helps keep them in check. These are gates that operate within most of us to keep us in line. The psychopath, in prototypic form lacks these traits. I also think the psychopath has not only a weaker gate but potentially a stronger impulse trying to get through that gate. I think this is where traits like anger, excitement seeking, and NEO-PI-R impulsivity (which I prefer to call Urgency) come in.”

He agrees with me that the Inner Triangle helps us understand psychopaths. But he also inadvertently points out the fact that the Inner Triangle alone does not explain evil. He says, “the question is not why do some people do bad things but why doesn’t everyone?” When I read this I thought, “Well it would never have even occured to me to do the things I have seen psychopaths do.”

To understand the psychopath, we must understand the power motive. Lack of constraint alone does not predict what a psychopath will do in any given situation. Adding unrestrained drives for power and sex into the equation allows us to predict their behavior.

I was fooled by a sociopath/psychopath primarily because I did not understand the PROACTIVE nature of the disorder. These are not people who accidentally do bad things because they were faced with some temptation they could not over come. As my friend a former agent says, “When the psychopath wakes up in the morning and opens his eyes, he says to himself, it’s showtime!”

Psychopaths PLAN carefully their evil deeds, the evil is NOT some impulsive accident. That fact is sometimes overlooked because we still have a hard time grasping that they are as evil to the core as they really are.

Wednesday, 4 July 2007 @ 6:10am

kmrobinson says:

I struggle everyday to understand the depth of the evilness inside my son’s father. He doesn’t contact his son via phone, nor visit, nor does he acknowledge his lack of financial accountability. Everyone, including the legal system, know that he is playing them, but yet everyone seems to be afraid of holding him accountable. He lies and manipulates the emotions and security of his nine year old son with no remorse about the emotional devastation he is wreaking on his son’s life. He continues to manipulate the legal system with managing to fly under the radar and have the “pro bono” services of a “man’s rights lawyer” who has lied on the stand for him and allegated unspeakable actions against myself.

I have gone into financial devastation battling this in court to protect my son. His father has stepped up his intimidation and aggression tactics by sending home a bullet with my son to give to me. Promising to teach a nine year old how to shoot a handgun just like his stepsisters who are 7,10, and 13.

Years ago, this would have sent me into a hysterical frenzy. I now refuse to live in fear of this man, but continually worry that if I do not play into his fear and intimidations that he will feel the need to step up the ante and possibly follow through with physical harm to my son or myself or both.

I am now friendly with all of the past lovers, employers, and acquaintences of my son’s father and have kind of formed a “survivor’s group”. We are in contact with each other often as most of us have legal issues that we are still dealing with due to our involvement with him.

He now uses religion to hind his evil behind by being involved with an extremist Baptist group that follows the belief that woman have no rights. He has not worked in two years and owes well over $30,000 in back support and day care. Yet blatantly buys himself a “toy” helicopter in front of his son, that cost more than a week’s child support, and takes it home with himself instead of giving it to his son (who never so much as received a Christmas card from him).

I am grateful everday to those who are supportive of me and my son emotionally and who have gone along on this never ending roller coaster ride with me and for some reason refuse to jump off.

I am grateful to this website blog that comes in right about the time I need reassurance the I am not the one who is crazy. And everyday I wake up and say thank god that I am blessed with my son and that someday there will be justice.

Wednesday, 11 July 2007 @ 9:39am

sbosky1 says:

“Someday there will be justice.” I have been reading for the last twenty minutes – it was this phrase that motivated me to make an entry. My ex is a sociopath. He and I are headed back to court for the second time – after more than a year of deliberate delays. I wish the court system could recognize the sociopaths among us. I pray for the day that justice will be served – for you, for me, for all of us who have fallen prey.

Thursday, 12 July 2007 @ 7:17am

suescov says:

Buying a toy helicopter for himself as described above reminds me of my psycho ex’s and their “toys”. They grew up in homes where they had everything and they certainly didn’t provide this type of life for their children. They buy expensive things for themselves (cars, jewelry, motorcycles, vacations, etc…) and their kids have the barest of necessities. The 2 older boys had to pay their way through college and buy their own cars! It galls me that they are this selfish and they live in luxury while everyone else has to scrape just to get by., including myself! Thanks to their greed, I ended up in debt and am unable to properly provide for my own children the way I would like. Everyone suffers from the psycopath’s destruction. Not to mention the medical bills you end up paying to therapists so you can get your mind back. It leaves you with this terrible feeling in the center of your gut and it never really goes away.

Friday, 13 July 2007 @ 2:44pm

Liane,
Thank you so much for your comments and insights. It has taken me a long time to come to grips with what kind of person I was dealing with. I’ve been reading the comments and stories on this website for over a month and it has helped me a great deal. The person I was involved with for 3 years pretended to have cancer. Like I said before, he was an excellent actor and had everyone fooled even his own mother and father. I didn’t listen to my own gut feeling that he was a liar. Then I didn’t listen to my gut feeling that he was a cheater and a user. Then I didn’t listen to my gut feeling that he was so far from being a genuine person. He was a fraud. That’s how I always knew he was seeing someone else. He would have new sayings and hobbies. But I am getting off track on what I wanted to say. I can really relate to what everyone has to say here. I don’t think anyone else could understand unless they’ve been in a relationship with a person like this. I would try to figure him out but then I got to a point where the question of why I was putting up with it was more important than the question of why he was doing what he was doing. I felt like I was just as sick as he was for putting up with it. Like there was something desperately wrong with me and I needed to fix myself and not worry about him. I’ve read many stories and it seems like people like that can fool just about anybody. So maybe I’m not so desperately flawed. I know I have things I need to work on, like my self esteem but I don’t feel so alone after finding this website. I do believe I will heal and I do believe my life will be good again. There is an excellent article in the new issue of Oprah. It’s called “Could a man drive you crazy?” It’s not specific about sociopaths but it does give us some things to think about so we take better care of ourselves in relationships. I recently read a book called “Clowngirl” by Monica Drake. I thought it was a good metaphor for me. Who am I without the clown suit of that relationship? Who am I on my own two feet. I think I was afraid of being noone without him. I’m not afraid anymore. I am much better off without him. I’m learning to like it and enjoy it. I don’t need the drama to feel alive. I want peace in my life. People like that are a huge waste of time. I spent too much energy, time and money on someone that didn’t care about me and was using me. So my advice to anyone that is in an abusive relationship is to get out as soon as possible and don’t look back. Suescov, my wish for you is that the terrible feeling in your gut will turn into peace and joy. That is my prayer for all of us.

Monday, 16 July 2007 @ 10:16pm

Summerthyme, thank you for your wish. I am working on it one day at a time and some days are better for me than others. I like your analogies and I will try to get that book as this will help with my self-healing process. This website has helped me temendously and it is good to see that others have shared my experiences in that I am not crazy. However, I must say that I have developed mental conditions and anxieties that were not present prior to meeting my ex’s but with the hard work and determination, I am overcoming them. The freedom I feel outweighs the torment that I endured with these guys. It never ceases to amaze me the methods they use to lure us into their “underworld” and I feel Dr Leedom hits the nail on the head with her research on sociopaths and their methodology, traits, etc. I also had that instictive “gut” feeling when I first started dating both of my psychos. I remember thinking at the time that they were too good to be true and wondered why noone else had scooped them up as they were both 28 yrs old when I had met them. It was only later that I started to discover their terrible pasts which uncovered the truth about them but, of course, it was too late. In the beginning of the relationship, they were so busy with wooing me that it left little time to do a background check and I often saw clues that me think in the back of my mind that something wasn’t quite right. And, I know all about the chaos!!! It seems exciting at first, but after awhile it starts to wear on you. Like the time when I was busy studying for an important exam late at night, I heard a noise on the front porch and found my ex’s son sitting there because his mother had just dropped him off so she could go out with her friends. I remember being furious with her at the time but what I didn’t know was that my ex had planned it with her, then made it look like he was out “looking” for her all night. He had cheated on me with her and I was the perfect and convenient babysitter for them so that they could have a rendevous for old times sake! I was so blind I could’ve kicked myself for it. But, I believed his lies and didn’t want to see the truth about him. I didn’t want to admit to myself that I had picked yet another loser who could control me with his suave and smooth ways.

Thursday, 19 July 2007 @ 11:34am

Hi Suescov,
This website has been a tremendous help to me also. The authors of this site, Donna Andersen, M.L. Gallagher and Liane Leedman, know what they are talking about, from experience and research. I respect them and thank them for sharing their experiences, knowledge and time with us. It is so good to know that there are people here that can really relate.

The book I mentioned is not a self help book in anyway. I just liked it and think she’s a cleaver writer. When I would come across one of her lines, like “Love and hope are a bad mix sometimes.” I could really relate. I think that’s one of the things that kept me stuck for a while “It will get better.” “It will be different this time.” It never was and never did.

Pleae try not to be hard on yourself. I think that was one of the lessons that I had to learn and am still learning. Why do we forgive others but have a hard time forgiving ourselves.

Take good care of yourself. You do deserve real love.

Monday, 6 August 2007 @ 2:32pm

pollyannanomore says:

What an awesome breakdown of the traits – this is really important for victims to know in detail as they map their way through the world post sociopath. One of the major worries after this type of encounter is meeting another one of these monsters somewhere through life.

This specifically outlines the minute attitudes, thinking and likely behaviours that go along with this disorder and is hugely helpful. I recently had the pleasure of reading Women who love psychopaths 2nd Ed and it mapped out in much more detail the traits that women have who stay in these relationships – reading this is like seeing the mirror and explains so much for me about why it was so bad and how I got stuck there for so long trying to fix everything. Reading the book allowed me to see the very positive (but sometimes dangerous) aspects of my own personality that fitted with his sickness to create the dynamic.

I try to imagine at times what it must be like to be like him –
no real authentic self, no introspection or reflection, no learning, never trying anything new, impulsiveness, lack of self consciousness or remorse or regret, selfishness, irritability. He put me through hell but if he ever gets self aware enough his own psychology must be hell as well. I can’t imagine it at all – going through life with a care for not another living soul. It’s unthinkable.

Thankyou Dr Leedom – excellent work and well written for non medicos!

Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 5:28am

OxDrover says:

I’m glad you brought up this older article of Lianes, I think it is one of the best! Though I have made concerted attempts to go back and read every article on LF, I find one once in a while I have missed, and this is apparently one of them!

Having a “check list” as it were to compare a person’s behavior against may make us be more aware of the things we need to watch for.

I copied and pasted this article into omy “LF scrapbook” A belated thanks for this one Liane, Great article.

Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 7:47am

peterd says:

The deception and conning is a huge portion of this disorder, so it is not easy to tell the real personality traits of sociopaths at all, they are well hidden.

I am a man and all my life I noticed those fake men around me, the ones who faked to have my personality traits, but they weren’t like me at all. They faked it better than I can ever present myself. Very few women at initial stages can tell the difference between me – a normal man and a sociopath.

Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 8:21am

one_step_at_a_time says:

@peterd,

“they faked it better than i can ever present myself.” wow.

and you have ssen them – this is amazing.

I have been scammed by a woman pretending to be a man. (internet and phone). were you scammed by a woman?

one step

Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 1:26pm

behind_blue_eyes says:

“Twelve traits were consistently identified by Lynam and Widiger as either low or high in psychopaths. The psychopath is low in 5 facets of A (Straightforwardness 1, Altruism 2, Compliance 3, Modesty 4, Tender mindedness 5, three facets of C (dutifulness 6, self-discipline 7, and deliberation 8), and one facet each of N (self-consciousness 9) and E (warmth 10); the psychopath is high in impulsiveness 11 from N and excitement seeking 12 from E.”

I have yet to find any characteristics of a sociopath not exhibited by the person in my life who I now suspect was a sociopath. However, I still don’t accept that all sociopaths are deliberate in their actions. I think that their callousness, lack of empathy and lack of guilty feelings may make their behavior appear deliberate while not actually being so deliberate.

Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 11:57pm

flowerpower says:

Wonderful article. Once I learned of my ex’s hidden life and lies, I realized he HAD to be deliberate to carry it off for so long. The other life with countless woman didnt just happen, he made sure of it. He manuvered and schemed and conned many people to cover up his other side

.For example, he would tell several of his female clients each week to bring him lunch since he didnt have time to take a break, when his girlfriend brought lunch that week, no one noticed. He had so many female “friends” running errands for him, that one one suspected one could be a lover. He was such a nice guy…just a bud.

All planned. All schemed. Conning and manipulating and winking and laughing behind the scenes. I put tapes in his car. In one those he is with a female” friend” jokingly telling his buddies (ha ha) that they just had sex…or was he joking??

When most of the comments are jokes, how do you know the truth? Isnt that the idea? Teasing, joking and being funny is another con.

When the smiling mask came off , there was a monster behind it. And he was not happy to that his “act” had been discovered.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 12:32am

ErinBrock says:

Flower:
I posted my letter to the judges…..on the other thread….
hope you saw it before it got buried…..

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 12:37am

geminigirl says:

OXY!!!! Ive found out the name of the S. african woman who killed her Tik addicted son.Her name is Ellen Pakkies.
Ive just sent away for a book about her, called.
“Dealing in Death,–Ellen Pakkies and a communities struggle with Tik. ” It isnt sold on Amazon, but a S. African book co. if you send me youre street address privately,{Ill give you my email, an I promise not to give yours to anyone alse.}
Then Ill order a copy for you too. When I get back from my trip,{end of may,} mine should have arrived. Then Ill order another copy for you. Hows that? My treat to you for all the invaluable help youve been to me.
Love, Maia {Gem}.XX

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 1:21am

conomo says:

Watched a fooood program tonight….fear was the emotion that he wanted to face…i think we all need to face that emotion…it ’s the root of it allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 1:58am

ttime makes you bolder…children makes you olderr..I am think music makes you older and I think it get harder to adjust …I AAM GOING TO SEE THE EAGLES!!! yAAY

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:04am

i have to say I am sorry … and I have to sy this sit e makes me hurt more than I think I should………

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:09am

shabbychic says:

conomo… are you ok? don’t want you to hurt more,
i don’t want me to hurt more!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:18am

Well I hope I never make you hurt Schic!!!!Sseriously/sincerely!!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:24am

conomo… no! you will never make me hurt! seriously!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:26am

Truth be told …I hurt every frickin day of my life…triying ever to deal with that…I willl one day know your hurt too…

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:27am

It does hurt … I try not to let it… as I’m sure you do…so many ways…

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:30am

i guess i hurt everyday too, we all have our own, if we knew each other’s hurt… we would stick with what we’ve got, i heard something like that somewhere before, i forget.

ha ha…not to discount you…but sounded funny….

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:32am

people cry when they get kicked off dancing with the stars

They do I’m sure…Canada rocks though!!!!…JK…nt really

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:35am

i loved the movie, but i never read the book

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:38am

Thanks Schick…

what book? what movie?? I’m lost??

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:40am

have you ever answered questions on
Yahoo! Answers?
It’s a scream.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:41am

sorry, i’m just blathering on and on,
didn’t mean to confuse. There is no movie
and no book. ha ha!!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:43am

I have to take my final bow for the evening
and wave good evening now
please, don’t throw flowers at me! LOL
didn’t want to disappear on you conomo!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:46am

no…but I looked for answers ..

screwed up me answers other people questions on
Yahoo! Answers
I’m looking for answers too!!!!!!!!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:49am

you’re freakin me out S Chick!!! But i like it … thank you

i’m freakin myself out.
you are a sweetie.
I can’t stand it when my cat gives himself a bath
when he is sitting next to me. I told him to stop.
i got a dirty look. oh, ha ha, no pun intended!
a dirty look from a dirty cat… duh.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:53am

You’re funny…thanks for that..if you don’t come back…have a more happy night …yeah!!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:54am

You’re funny…thanks for that..if you don’t come back…have a more happy night …yeah!!!! you are way ahead of me…I’m seem to be a ;loser but I really know I’m not!!!!!

ok, you too, good night conomo!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:55am

no, you are not a loser, is that what you wrote?
we are fabulous!!!!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:56am

I LOVE the Eagles! Have Fun!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 2:59am

Conomo, Are you on the sauce again? {Booze.} Just asking.
Love, mamaGem,XX
I can usually tell if you are ,your posts start to sound disjointed, self pitying, spaced out and just plain weird. You dont need alcohol, conomo, trust me, its NOT helping you.
And all this is not edifying for newbies.Of course your not a loser, but you WILL start to lose it if you go on like this.Love,
Gem.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 3:05am

Where in the heck did you get Eagles from? That was a while ago…but still in the future….we are gonna sing our hearts out!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 3:07am

Are you policing me Moma?

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 3:12am

No, Conomo, Im telling you the TRUTH.
Gem.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 3:19am

EF,thanks!!! read your letter to judges! will use parts of it. Have a meet and greet next week and a party. I know most of the candidates and their wives.

Very nice people and it will be hard to convince these nice people that the not so nice ones are out there in suits and ties.

They can understand the tee shirt cons but not the professionals…like my ex. Which is why he can get away with so much. Anyone know how to “expose” a corrupt city councilman..my ex’s bud and one of his mouthpieces..

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 8:14am

Flower:
ALSO…..if you don’t get ‘personal’, like relating your info to YOUR situation and DON”T USE THE WORD EX…..
Ears will open further……use the words like advocate, victims etc…
When we personalize it……they tend to close up, because nobody wants to be ‘in the middle’ of a domestic’fight’……
You know….

Good going girl……
Judges DO so ever so much from the bench….you’d be surprised at what they are ‘open’ to……

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 9:44am

Dear Flower,

Well “Blogo” got ousted from the Illinois Governor’s chair and is going to trial for his crimes, and that Judge in NY got nailed for bribes for family court decisions, and so on, it does happen, but you have to get the evidence…that is sometimes a problem, but it can be done…the “GOOD OLD BOY” network is not so GOOD after all. Sometimes the bad guys close ranks even with the evidence in plain sight, but other times they get cranked—maybe you might want to talk to a reporter, sometimes a good reporter knows the ins and outs of how to get the evidence. Or if you think you kinow what is going on you might want to contact your states AG’s office.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 3:41pm

Dear OXY. About 35 posts back on this thread,”Are they just evil people?” I mentioned that Id found some info re the S. African lady from cape Flats, whose son was a drug addict,{addicted to a drug called Tik} . You didnt answer, so I assume you either didnt read it, or arent interested . Can you le me know if you are?
Ive sent away for a book about this lady, and Id like to get a copy for you. Love, Gem.XX

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 5:43pm

Dear Gem, Yes, I AM interested very much. Send Donna your e mail and ask her to forward it to me, and she will then I will answer you back with a PO box to snail mail me. I’ve been having awful trouble with my computer hook up today, keeps disconnecting, plus son D brought home a flu-like virus from a “Wilderness Emergency Medicine” course he took 10-12 days ago and he and I have been under the weather with a “light” case of the flu, we just want to die, don’t think we ARE dying! LOL

I am just wrung out, got up at 9, took a nap from 12-3:00 p.m. today and still at nearly 6 p.m feel exhausted. He is finally back to himself today and has been outside working a bit but I just don’t have the get up and go I usually do. Sitting at the computer is about all I can do and washed a dish or two (we were out of spoons) fortunately I have enough food cooked to do us another couple of days before I have to get up and cook. He is an angel about eating whatever will hold body and soul together from the pantry if I don’t feel like cooking or will raid the refrigerator for left overs for 3-4 days in a row of eating the same thing. No one is beating me up about doing nothing except ME! LOL

Of course Fat Ass had to get out of the pasture onto the highway in a blind curve a couple of days ago and we had to drag outselves out of bed to go hunt him and find the hole in the fence. I think the asses are both psychopathic, with Fat the worst of the two! At least Hairy stayed in the pasture and brayed to try to lure Fat back. Finally he did come back near the gate. My egg donor called and said the neighbors had said he was out. I thanked her. Then she called back to say he was by the gate to the pasture in her yard. I thanked her. Then today my phone rang it was her. She said she thought I had called her! I thanked her for calling me the other day to alert me that Fat was out and told her that “No, I didn’t call you, you must have pushed the wrong button on your phone. Thanks again. Bye now” And believe me or not, I didn’t get upset about it. I just smiled at her attempt to call me and deny calling me at the same time. LOL

I’ll just take it easy another day or two and quit beating myself up for resting after this bout with some kind of flu-like illness. Not serious, just a PITA (pain in the arse) LOL (((Hugs))) and thanks I would love to have the book about that woman. I hope it means she did not go to prison for life for what she did. Maybe at least it get her some empathy from the police and courts. ((((Hugs))) and thanks

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 6:00pm

kim frederick says:

Ox, Sorry you are under the weather, but BOINK. It’s okay to rest and take care of yourself. Make glue out of Hairy and fat-ass if they dont agree, as for egg-donar, well done!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 7:15pm

Dear Kim, you have no idea how close Fat Ass was to being a bottle of glue! I had a wonderful lovely cow once who learned about jumping the cattle guard and getting out on the road, and livestock on the road is DANGEROUS especially where I live with the natural gas trucks barreling up and down the road at well over the speed limit almost bumper to bumper on the 2 lane black top. I really loved that cow, but I ended up putting her arse in the freezer because I didn’t want to have to keep a gate closed all the time and get out in the rain and open and close it every time I left the farm or came in.

I’ve dun-em in for less than that, and as long as I am dictator here on the farm it is my way or the butcher shop! Actually, I will give him a pass this time as the fence was down in an out of the way place and I am sure he didn’t actually mean to escape, just stepped over the down fence, but if he takes to jumping fences (which mules and donkeys do sometimes) he will have to wear a chain hobble and if that doesn’t work, guess what! Donkey burgers! My grandfather had to hobble all his mules or they would jump fences, it is like a leather collar around their ankle with 6-8 feet of fairly heavy chain attached and if they try to run, they either step on it or trip, or if they are jumpers, you chain a front foot to a back foot on the opposite side and they can’t get their front feet off the ground in order to jump so they stay on the ground and not in the air. Actually you can’t do this to a horse as they would FREAK out, but donkeys and mules are much smarter than horses and won’t freak out over it even the first time you put it on them.

I had to take my standard jelly (female donkey) to a historical event once and she hadn’t been off the farm in 10 yrs so I hobbled her when I got there as I figured someone would shoot off a canon or something and I didn’t want her breaking away and RUNNING into a crowd. She did just great until some jerk did shoot off a canon and she STAMPEEDED up and down in place! Funniest thing I ever saw! Braying and jumping up and down in one place, with stuff flying off every which way from the pack saddle. I still have a 30 second “mental video” of that scene in my head!

She did well the rest of the event and loved the kids feeding her slices of bread! I had taken her for a pay off on a bet I lost, I had said I would kiss someone’s arse if I lost—so I GAVE her to him, complete with calligraphy scroll, and then since she was HIS ARSE—I kissed her! He really didn’t want her but it got me out of a tight spot and I Didn’t WELCH on my BET! I kissed his arse in front of my 100 closest friends from the history group! Great story and lots of fun!

I’ll live over this flu-like crud, could have been worse! And YES, thanks for the BOINK, I WILL take care of myself. (((hugs)

Any leads on a job? How is the SIL doing? Hope you don’t have to kiss his arse too much! LOL gott’ya! LOL

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 7:56pm

henry says:

smOxy I am sorry your feelin poorly. At least you have your son there to look after you. I got real sick the other nite and sure wish I had had someone here to hold my head while I puked, it’s time’s like that when being alone really hit’s me hard. Oh I could put that in my list of things I want in a mate, somebody to hold my head while I puke, that would be loverly in a eharmony profile..
So Shabbychic if you read this tell me whats going on with you? Did you take back your spath?? I cant find the thread where you were talkin about seeing him..i only get on here late in the evening and it’s hard to keep up…….

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 8:05pm

Oxy still no job forthcoming. Much better with SIL, for the time being, but, this can’t go on forever.
Made wonderfull home-made pizza tonight, 4 kinds, supreame, pepperonni, 4- cheese and Margueritta…YUMM. It helps, a little.
Glad that Fat-ass and Hairry got away with their hooves. intact, this time. Smart asses. Gotta love ‘em.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 8:13pm

Dear Henry,

Yea, that would be a great profile for a dating site! LOL ROTFLMAO I had both my hands operated on for carpal tunnel at the same time so had both hands in splints with only the tips of the fingers sticking out—fortunately my husband was alive at that time, cause you sure find out who your FRIENDS are when you have to have someone do EVERYTHING for you! LOL

Fortunately this isn’t a stomach flu, just the fever and bone aches and head ache and feeling like pounded dog doo. Son D had it worse than I did. It could be the H1N1, it is still going around and because we had our shots early, the immunity could have partly worn off, it isn’t as bad as a “full blown” influenza but not fun in any case.

I just hate not getting anything done, especially after I felt so good last week and accomplished so much! Oh, well!!! Gotta quit beating myself up! I think sometimes I’m my own worst slave driver! I would never treat anyone else as bad as I treat myself! I think partly that is what is “wrong” with all of us here, we are here because we treat others better than we treat(ed) ourselves, so I’m trying to learn to do better.

Kimmie, you can come live with me and be my cook!!!! Of course I may get to where I weight 500 pounds and have to go on America’s Biggest Loser! In which case I will have to have you lock me in the closet to keep me away from food! It is bad enough with me cooking for myself!

I’m being a good girlie and have quit beating myself on the head!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 8:32pm

timeheals says:

Oxy, Sorry you’re not feeling well…I just went through an awful stomach bug myself 2 weeks ago…I threw up so many times, I swear things were coming OUT of my stomach that never went INTO my stomach. And you’re sooo right Henry about being alone when you’re sick…it sucks! I was begging my cat to bring me a cold washcloth but noooooo…They can sit right there on the sink…even nudge the faucet, but help me when I’m dying? Nope. I almost put out a FaceBook plea for someone…ANYONE…to please leave gingerale, or jello on my front steps…or slip a banana into my mail slot before I dehydrated or starved. YES Henry, it’s nice to have someone that loves you there when you really need help and comfort.

I’ve been watching Idol Gives Back for a while tonight. They just showed some heart wrenching video from Ethiopia…this little girl with AIDS…I was thinking about all the poor innocent babies born HIV positive…no fault of their own…so much suffering ahead of them. Here the show is trying to raise money and awareness…partly for AIDS and it’s devastation…and it hit me…My EX-S/P!! Not that he has AIDS (maybe by now, who knows) but he and all the rest like him, just go around having unprotected sex without a care in the world…no regard for anyone or their health. It makes me sick…and it makes me cry…

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 9:36pm

Stargazer says:

Sorry you guys are under the weather. I don’t know if I could hold anybody’s head while they puked. I’d probably start puking too. I guess that kills my chances with you, doesn’t it, Henry? LOL

I just worked an 11-hour day, and I’m wiped.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 9:41pm

star did you mean whipped or wiped? oh star i will just be sick by myself but if yall start smelling something bad call my son and tell him I died….sometimes i think thats the only way anyone would know oh poor me… ):

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 10:14pm

Dear Time heals,

Thanks sweetie! Fortunately this is a NON-stomach type of flu, so no leaning over a pan, thank goodness! Just feeling like I have been beaten with a ball bat!

Yes, you know, I often stop and count my blessings, and think, as difficult as parts of my life have been, there are so many people who have so much less, and who are afflicted with so much pain for no reason but man’s inhumanity to man.

We all of us that have a roof over our heads and a pillow to lay our head on at night, should count our blessings! There are so many people who are TRULY SICK, not just “under the weather” and have no clean water ANY day, and no one who cares if they live or die!

You are right too, about the Ps going around spreading trauma and disease without a backward glance or a care for the suffering of others.

Star, I know you are tired, but at the same time, count your blessings that you have a job where you CAN work and provide for yourself. Sleep the sleep WELL earned! (((Hugs to you all)))

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 10:15pm

Homade pizza, H1N1, Puking, rotting bodies, 11 hour days, Aids baby’s and holding heads out of the toilet and tears….
Hmmmmmm…..
I’m doing just fine thank you!!!!

Oxy….feel better snotty! Give into it and get some rest!

Star: 11 hours of massage….dang girl!! I don’t know how you do that! I’m cooked in 3 minutes.

Hens: Stop feeling sorry for your bad self….If you disappeared from LF…..we’d send the troops out!

Timeheals:
Heres a bananna and a six pack…..hopefully you won’t need it again!

I want to tell you…..when I puked the spath would yell at me to do it quieter….or come in the bathroom and fart.
OMG…EB…..28 years…..and I’m complaining he may strike??? I’d rather live like this ANYDAY…..than have him around (in my home).

XXOO
To all!!!

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 10:24pm

ERIN,
OH MY, ROTFLMAO CHOKE, SHORT, SNARF, LOL–oh, My aching side!!!! You crack me up GF. I am so VISUAL and even if I am a nurse and NOT MUCH BOTHERS ME, just the visual of you with your head in the toilet and him standing in the bathroom farting and scratching his crotch is more than I can stand! LOL ROTFLMANO

You know there are some advantages of living “alone” as far as relationships are concerned, and some advantages of having someone else in the house too. A couple of years ago when I sprained my ankle I got into the bathtub and couldn’t get out and I am struggling to find a way to position myself to get out and not put pressure on the ankle and I am thinking, “Oh my gosh, what am I gonna do?” Son D knows everything there is to know about me but what I look like nekid and I am thinking, “well here goes the only thing he doesn’t know about me.” But I managed to get around and finally get out of the bathtub without having to yell for help.

Reminds me of the time my slightly “fluffy” friend who is a dumpster diver got over into a dumpster behind the post office looking for Kohl’s coupons and couldn’t get back out, left her phone in the car, which was running of course, and here it is a 3 day weekend and she is stuck in this dumpster!!!! She finally managed to get a leg up high enough to get out, but it was a GREAT STORY anyway! I can just visuallize her in the dumpster—so you can imagine me, nekid in the bathtub doing essentially the same gymnastics! LOL

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 10:35pm

Next time your in that ’spot’…..make sure you wear your feather riding hat and all the distraction will be there….and not on sexy mamma oxy!

I spent about a year and a half showering on a plastic deck chair in the shower when I was sick…..just letting the water run over me……then getting back to the bed and laying on towels because I didn’t have the energy to dry off…..and out for the rest of the day…..
I KNOW it can be done…..it could be much better with a NICE hottie rubbing lotion on me, and drying me off and washing my hair…..
BUT if he farts when I puke….he’s OUT!!!

And NO dumpsters.

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 10:47pm

You ladies crack me up, but your gettin gross so I am going to bed gnite…

Wednesday, 21 April 2010 @ 11:48pm

Is uninhibited farting Spath specific, or is it practicesd by all men? Very curious about this.

Thursday, 22 April 2010 @ 8:31am

Kimmie, I think it is a male thing–dog (male) does it too! Cat (female) doesn’t but she is a psychopath any way.

Thursday, 22 April 2010 @ 12:37pm

creampuff says:

Oxy, I’ve always thought sociopaths were a lot like cats…..and we are all the mice……can you tell me on what thread you did the fruit tree analogy? I came across it the other night and now can’t find it……it was great, about how trees never have 2 kinds of fruit on them…and if an apple tree has oranges on it , they are tied on with string……what a “genious” comment……my S-path step daughter is now posting on Face Book about how she is sick of people judging her and then she starts quoting the Bible about how no one is to judge her, it was very condescending……isn’t it funny how they judge people constantly, but when it gets turned around on them…..they freak……I wonder who in the world stood up to her or said something to her…..I would love to thank them……I closed out my FaceBook because of her…..it’s bad enough she’s in the same town……I really don’t need her lurking around on my wall. Had to be around her twice this week because of family stuff……ick…..ick…..ick……I think I need another bath…..on a heavier note….how long did it take you to get where you are today? I imagine you went through years of torment with your son…..we seem to be much more forgiving when it involves our “blood”. I still find myself sympathizing with these girls on some level…..and that absolutely keeps me frozen. I hate being such a sucker..there is always this lingering, nagging little voice in my head that asks me…..”what if you’re wrong?” And yet after 30 years of this, and watching the total destruction they have caused to others, I know I’m not….any tips for toughening yourself up?

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 9:47pm

GettingIt says:

guys, I really need some help making sense of what is happening. My toddler tried to hump me last night – I mean he insisted on holding my face, kissing my lips, got on top of my stomach and began humping. This was so terrible for me. This morning – he tried to hump my dog. All this – after spending not even two months worth of sleeping at his P-father’s house. Ideas?
If I go to the court I have little evidence. The child is not telling me anything and it’s my story and remember – I am probably the crazy one…

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 10:10pm

Dear Gettingit,

OMG! Sweetie I don’t know what to tell you, but I think I agree with your gut feeling! I would get him to a counselor for starts and talk to them. I think he has obviously SEEN something at the very least. I would just tell him that is not the way boys and mommies act with each other and not make too big a deal out of it. ((((Hugs))))) You are in my prayerS!

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 11:12pm

thank you, Oxy, I don’t know what to think. I try to tell myself to not overreact, but my choices are bad genes or exposure, or WORSE. Thank you for understanding….

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 11:20pm

Dear ceampuff,

I wish I had a “simple” answer for you. I’ve “been at it” off and on back and forth for decades. My first cue was “Without Conscience” nearly 15-6 years ago, at least. Can’t remember exactly, but about 1994 was I think about when I read it the first time. I compared my p-son’s behavior to the descriptions of a P. I didn’t apply it consistently, and kept thinking, like you said that “blood” would out–but eventually, nearly 5 years ago when the BIG CHAOS started, and not quite a year later when I had to run for my life, I realized that I had been in and out of denial about one P or another most of my life.

It didn’t come suddenly and I waffled back and forth, like most of us do. I wish I could tell you that it just “comes to you” and you get it and act on it, but it never worked that way for me. I know that I am still highly vulnerable to to stress after the continual high stress for years and years! It takes a toll on your body and soul…and takes time to heal and not be so Vulnerable, but it is getting better. I’m not in a state of high alert 24/7 like I was for so long.

I had to learn to set boundaries and to actually decide for myself what I COULD tolerate and what was TOO MUCH. I had some “friends” that were abusing my “help” and literally stealing from me, etc. and I finally realized that I had to set limits with them. I did. They did NOT like it! I stuck with the limits, they violated the limits, I set stricter limits, they violated those and finally I made it CLEAR that they were out of my life and I was not responsible for fixing their problems. The first time I set a limit I cried for 2 days before I told her (it was a couple!). The last time I set a limit, called them on lying to me about why they did not keep their word and firmly informed them what the limit was. THERE WAS NO HESITATION at all. I didn’t even feel guilty at all or waffle about it at all. I think it is like learning to ride a bicycle, you just have to practice setting limits. Then sticking to them.

Part of the problem with this couple was my husband adored them before he died. My son D adored them. The chit they were pulling was directed toward ME (just like your Step dtr and dtr Ps) and none toward my husband or son D. Eventually, I caught her stealing and set a limit. She was not to ever come to my home when I (me personally) was not home. My son D and husband had a difficult time believing she was a thief when I had plenty of evidence. And I understand their doubts! Anyway, after his death I felt “obligated” to put up with them for son D’s benefit…and they kept taking more and more advantage. Eventually, son D SAW what they were doing but I was so afraid of upsetting HIM (got to protect everyone else, remember? That’s my job to keep everyone happy and pretend we’re a nice normal family, not let anyone get upset….except me of course!) But finally, my son D got it, and he is also NC with them. Done with them. WE are done with them, and I realize that the problem with me setting and enforcing limits and boundaries was WITH ME and my ideas that I had to keep “peace”—-which wasn’t really peace, just a pretense. So, I no longer am a PEACE KEEPER. I mayy make peace, but not keep peace. I LISTEN TO MYSELF now, and I don’t have to have someone else VALIDATE my opinion of anyone. I can VALIDATE MYSELF and if you like them and think I am wrong, that’s your right, but it will not influence the way I treat them or how I set boundaries for them with me. NO MATTER what your and my realtionship is.

In other words, I will not let your friends/family abuse me in order to apease you. I’m not trying to put anyone “in the middle” but if someone does care about me, they will want me to protect myself as I see fit. If that makes any sense.

I don’t remember where you read about the fruit trees having two kinds of fruit (CRS!) LOL

Anyway, I hope that answers somewhat your questions. (((hugs)))

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 11:30pm

Getting it,

I don’t think the “bad genes” have had time to kick in to a toddler in LEARNED BEHAVIOR.

He has obviously at least SEEN something. I wouldn’t make a “big deal” out of it to him though, just make sure that you hold him firmly and lovingly when he tries to do those things and tell him that those things are NOT OK (appropriate) for MOMMIES AND BOYS TO DO TO EACH OTHER. That way you aren’t telling him that sex is “wrong” just not with mommie. If you get what I mean. I would take him to a counselor who is specialized in young children who may have been abused ASAP. At this point I wouldn’t get the law involved but get some help with this for YOU as well as for your baby. The counselor can advise you about what legal ramifications are and who if anyone should be reported to.

One of the problems with YOUNG child abuse is that the kids are so lacking in verbal ability to describe what has gone on or what they have seen. I am hoping it is at worst seeing things a child should not see. ((((hugs)))) Please keep us advised here at LF how things are with you. You are in my prayers.

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 11:36pm

i was thinking this am that i need to review the ways that the ppath could possibly shame me when we go into battle.

i wrote a bit about it tonight and thought i could get some info from emails. i’ve made it through 30 days of email so far. the things i remember as being red flags are there. just as odd as they were before. i am reading the email with my emotional antennae turned way down. i am noticing that, not being attached and wanting to be with that person changes how i read the text. and knowing what i know now about ppaths and who this @#$%^&*() is REALLY, i am not seeing the love.

i had a few flares of anger – the very first time we were to meet – about a year ago – and how she set that up and slithered out of it…took her 2 weeks about, to slither out of it a day at a time. !@#$%^&*(

there was one email i felt like printing here. just to put it out there and take the @#$%^&* magic off it. but, you know – she would know it was me posting here regardless, but i don’t have to make it easier for her.

i was so jerked around by her. and by that i mean – he was always dying and falling apart mentally. and i was running around with mental @#$%^&* duct tape, going please sir, can i GIVE you more. F**K.

ans she did SO MUCH to try to evoke jealousy in me. i can see it now. that’s incredibly cruel. i knew the parameters of the (FAKE) relationship before me, so i didn’t go there. and at least not that i let her know much about. i know now, from piecing together what she usually does when she scams people and the things i didn’t understand then, but do now, that inciting jealousy is one of the things she LOVES to do. !@#$%^&*()_)(*&^%$#$%^&*()(*&&. ahem.

she’s just a nasty piece of crap inside a little box. and i still do hate her.

you are gonna love this…form one of the emails from the boy, ‘mimic is common in me,’ lord love us all…

and there is trauma after trauma listed. firs this then that…it’s a wonder i could still function. but i am good with weird. it has been a problem in my life.

enough for tonight.

Saturday, 1 May 2010 @ 11:56pm

Thank you. I will follow your advise. I think it’s most reasonable and have already contacted few people for possible referrals. I want to make sure it isn’t some crook and I want to make sure that if a push comes to shove, their word will matter in the court of law.
I will try your suggestion with my baby. I was so shocked that I probably overreacted. But, something tells me there will be other similar issues coming up

getting it – i doubt you over reacted. glad you are pursuing getting some help – both for your toddler’s health and the necessary ‘professional’ witness.

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 12:04am

Rosa says:

GettingIt:

My niece has done the same thing to me several times over the past year.
PLUS, there have been other incidents where she has articulated sexual knowledge that a child her age would NEVER have unless someone told her.

My Mother and I have been taking care of this child ever since she was a baby, and she never learned any of these things from us.
I am horrified by this.
My situation is different than yours because it’s my niece…she is not my daughter.

But you are the child’s mother.
So if I were you, I would definitely take the child to a pediatrician or child psychiatrist and get him examined.

I have considered having a conversation with my niece’s pediatrician about what has been happening in my family as well.
My Mother tells me not to do it, because it won’t change anything.

In my situation, the child is being abused by her own biological mother.
It’s very difficult to have a child taken away from its own mother.
Especially when the “mother” is a nurse, active at school, has created the illusion of trustworthy, etc. You get the picture…..the mask is firmly in place right now.

My advice for you is to take your child to a qualified professional and have him thoroughly examined.

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 12:10am

So sad for you Rosa. Sometimes, it feels like it’ll never stop…
My (older) child admitted to me that he loved the P too. he also stopped having any friends – that at a time when all teens think friends to be most important. he is a great student and a very high achiever but says my experience taught him what it should have taught me – not to trust people. This isn’t the message I want my children to get: the world isn’t a bad cold place. But, the P is… Thank you for your support: I knew I’d get understanding here. It behooves me to think that my baby’s father exposed him to this… But, sadly it is in line with what Dr. Leedome wrote about the Ps creating their “legacy”

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 12:28am

bulletproof says:

great article and interesting posts

I especially love the part about who to surround ourselves with, especially admiring the capacity to be embarrassed and feel shame.

When I think of the P (and not a day goes by 2 years on that I don’t think of him) I see and feel him as Dr Leedom so brilliantly put it:

“When the psychopath wakes up in the morning and opens his eyes, he says to himself, it’s showtime!”

Not only is it evil, but its evil in action

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 7:28am

FlatBrokeNow says:

So when Jim Carrey puts on the Mask, and states “It’s SHOWTIME!!!” is this a bit of the sociopath at work??? Hilarious, but nowhere near the evil they are actually capable of.

FBN

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 1:03pm

I know from personal experience that sometimes S-path children are very sexual. My S-path step daughter was always like that…She was only 2 1/2 when her father and I started dating and I still think she is and always has been sexually attracted to her father(my now husband of 30 yrs.)
When she was not much bigger than a toddler she would always be hanging off him, but not in a parent child kind of way…it was just weird..she would look at him, stare into his eyes and have this wicked little smirk on her face….she always tried to kiss him on the mouth…which I put a stop to immediately. I could tell it all made him very uncomfortable, but he never verbalized it…I think he was scared to…you know the old saying that maybe if you don’t say it …it’s not real..to this day (she is now 32) she hugs him a little too long and a little too close in my opinion…she used to be a hairdresser and she cut his hair for years, but when she got these huge DD breat implants all of a sudden he would not let her cut his hair….he made up some lame excuse, but I know that deep down it made him very uncomfortable to have her with those things right in his face and all….but it was not just with him….when she was 3 or 4 she would go up to strange men and look at them seductively and tell them she loved them…..used to embarrass me to death…….now she has been married for about 8 years and her nickname in town is the “—–ville Carnival” everybody gets a ride…and her poor innocent husband just covers for her, just like her father always has…..but I know……anyway my point was that S-path children (at least mine) seem to come pre wired for sexual aggression….thank goodness for this blog where we all can vent……..

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 4:12pm

Dear Creampuff,

I’m not disputing you on this at all, but I think that even normal children do “sexual” things in that playing with themselves (it feels good) and so on. A friend of mine had a kid my son C’s age that walked around with his hand in his diaper from the time he could walk. LOL

I also know of a 3 yr old who was molested by an older kid and asked his mother to do oral sex on him, and the counselor told the mother what I told Getting it, “Just don’t make a big deal out of it, and tell him that is not okay for mommies and their sons” The kid turned out okay and sexually okay as far as I know and I don’t think he even has a memory of that event.

But it is also possible too that your step daughter may have been sexually molested/traumatized by her P mother or something she saw, or was acting insecure, rather than it being a “sign” of impending psychopathic behavior. Apparently there is also a great amount of mother/child sexual molestation, which is seldom believed or reported. BloggerT has a website about “when mom is the abuser” which is linked here to LF, you might check it out.

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 4:24pm

Who knows at this point Oxy? I just remember so vividly her being “weird” as a little kid, and now her oldest (7yrs.old) is weird too…..just like her Mom….I have been searching like crazy this afternoon to find that statement about the fruit tree..it was so good, and I really thought it was yours. I was looking over some old posts, it is amazing how you seem to have exactly the right words to say to people when they need them most. What a blessing you are to so many of us…I am glad to see some men on here too. I think sometimes they are so embarrassed at having been “had” they try to hide it. I am so excited about expressing my boundaries. I have been working on that for a little while now, and it is so empowering. I’ve found that I don’t even run to my old crutches like I used to. Praise God……he is showing me that I have cleaned up way more than my share of messes that were not even mine to clean up. These S-path daughters of mine have created their own messes…..they will have to be the ones to clean it up…..this old gal is done!!! Thanks Oxy!

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 5:06pm

Thank you I am glad that I have been able to help you! That’s what LF is all about each of us helping others, playing it forward!

Yes, I love the guys here because they share an aspect of it all from a male point of view that is good. Matt also gives us plenty of good legal concepts too.

We’ve all done more than our share of cleaning up I think, too. And the common experiences we seem to have had even though this is a very diverse group, I think helps us too.

Setting boundaries is difficult at first. You may want to discuss them here or with a close friend before doing them. It helps to have somone else say “Yea, that sounds reasonable” because we don’t want to be too strict but not too enablingn either. Different points of view help. Later you can take the training wheels off and validate yourself. I used to bounce mjy boundaries off of son D and he would validate them,, and I would do them. Later, I stopped asking for his validation as I didn’t feel the NEED for validation, I realized I could validate my own decisions. My own judgments! Liberating for sure!!!!

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 5:45pm

Thank you Creampuff, I do believe and think my son is way hypersexual and I have other kids of mine (not from the P) to compare him to. But, this maneuver he pulled was too adult-like and too rehearsed almost. I think both are at play.

I met someone on Match. I talked to him at length during the two dates and was pretty proud to identify him as a P. I even told him as much and basically made myself very unappealing. Just learned that the guy is married with FIVE kids. and – posing as a single with none. It is so said that humans like this are allowed all the benefits freedom has to offer. I am sorry for his wife/ girlfriend, whoever she is out there. For a man to sit and deny his children is a crime!

I wonder how many children my P has denied. He abducted one, abandoned one, and now my poor baby is going to get his early schooling. …

Sunday, 2 May 2010 @ 9:13pm

shanmoo says:

I have a question, particularly for anyone who has spiritual or religious beliefs.

Is it really possible, for a person who has been bad the majority of their life so far, caused intense pain and suffering to others, and never made any real reprieve …. to become a “good person” because they “behave themselves more” or should I say “better control their urges…” or even “hide the reality about them better”

Apparently my ex S has been to a psychiatrist and got new pills, he got the job as a teacher (pervert), and has the wonderful new woman … he is now ” better than he has ever been … and people are noticing changes….” It makes me so mad, that his friends and family have just brushed under the carpet the intense suffering of others … he has done NOTHING to put back into society, what he took out …. After over 20 years of being a BAD person, who put his own parents on tranquilisers, neglected his daughter, left his son and his mother, used and hit girlfriends … he is suddenly this great wonderful good person because he got a job and a woman who like me has been fooled?

He hasnt even apologised to people for what he has done. Not in any meaningful way. I was told by his friends “dont expect an apology, you wont get one”. Yet they “just want the best for him and want him to get better….” they JUST DONT GET IT, the man is EVIL. Yes, he does have mental illness, but he is a bad person. A good person would not get his own parents to lie on his behalf to the state (as they did about how he had managed to live without working, he was of course working illegally and they gave a statement saying they had given him money). All those close to him have condoned his behaviour by tidying up his mess for him every time and wiping his bottom thereafter.

Is it possible therefore, for a “bad egg” to become freshly good, without any form of repentence or proper treatment? Can “it” remain good…? Can we say we are a good person now we have “changed”, but for half of our life we have made others suffer, lied and cheated?

Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 5:24pm

Buttons says:

Shanmoo, all of the medications in the world won’t cause a leopard to change its spots. The spath son is exactly the same way – has all of a sudden become a “Christian” and will (from what I hear) quote passages from the Bible whenever possible ostensibly to prove what a “good Christian” he has become. Still, he remarried without telling his younger brother, gave a bogus wedding date/place/time, and continues to harm others using this cloak of religion as an excuse.

The medications might keep the person that you’re speaking about on an even emotional keel, but the behaviors are NOT going to change. Not for good. In order for a person to make a significant change, they must address the past and take ownership of what they have done to others. Not in a general sweep of a blanket apology, “I’m sorry about those things.” Taking ownership means saying, “Shanmoo, I really hurt you by doing the following things: ______. I am truly sorry for having done them, and I never intend to harm anyone else, again.”

Psychiatrists are notorious for medicating the symptoms and not delving into the deep, dark realms of the soul. This is why I feel that medications are useless for spaths. They might treat the symptoms, but they will never change the patterns.

Brightest blessings.

Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 5:35pm

Dear Shamoo,

Sometimes Psychopaths are ALSO bi-polar and the symptions of the BI-polar, (moods up and down, used to be called manic-depressive) may improve but the LACK OF CONSCIENCE is never fixed, so they are just able to FAKE it better.

It is frequentlyu found that psychopaths have bi-polar, have ADHD or all the above. For some reason too, a higher percentage of them are LEFT HANDED. Not sure why, but those are some things that go together with psychopathic traits. I am sure there are other things as well.

So if he has “improved” with a pill, it is just his ADDITIONAL problems that ARE treatable, not the Psychopathic part. Just makes him a better FAKER!

Buttons my P son can almost quote the Bible verbatum! But he still doesn’t get the apology, he just cannot bring himself to say the words “I’m sorry” he has TOO MUCH PRIDE TO LOWER HIMSELF TO ADMIT HE WAS WRONG. LOL Which with all the other lies he tells you would think a fake apology would be easy for him, but he just WILL NOT DO IT!!!! LOL

Tuesday, 8 June 2010 @ 7:12pm

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Are they just evil people?

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