ASK DR. LEEDOM: What is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath?
PDF The first question victims of love fraud ask concerns themselves and is generally something like, “Why is this so hard for me mentally?” The second question concerns the perpetrator, “What is wrong with him/her?” Many seek answers to these questions on the internet and in the popular psychology literature. A person looking for answers in these sources is just as likely to read about narcissism as he/she is to read about sociopathy. Thus the confusion between narcissism and sociopathy begins.
When trying to understand the difference (if any) between narcissists and sociopaths, it is important to understand why we have psychiatric diagnoses in the first place. We have diagnostic categories because people go to professionals seeking help for their emotional/psychological issues. The problem is that people who are grandiose, exploit others, lack empathy, and apparently have no conscience are unlikely to seek mental health treatment. Therefore, people with these symptoms are poorly understood. This is also the basic reason why this set of symptoms has been labeled both narcissism and sociopathy.
To further the confusion for victims of love fraud, a psychologist, Millon, has described the amorous narcissist. Such people are charming, articulate, charismatic and emotionally exploitative of their lovers. The amorous narcissist, like Don Juan, seeks conquest in his relationships. A Lovefraud reader commenting on another post has provided the best example of an amorous narcissist I have seen, yet she (correctly) calls him a sociopath:
I was completely taken in by a sociopath over a year ago. I had never met anyone who was so attentive, charming, complimentary, good looking… oh, the list goes on. I felt I had not only met Mr. Right, but Mr. Perfect. This was a very cultured and well educated man. Unlike the stereotypical sociopath, he holds a good job -can even be considered a “captain of industry”. We live in different cities, so it was even easier for him to fool me. He would call me 2-3 times a day – send text messages, write e-mails. I wondered sometimes how he got the time to do all this. But it was almost impossible for ME to get him on the phone. He said he was at a meeting, at a business dinner etc.
He also seemed to not have many good friends. But all the people he mentioned were women – some one who went to the symphony with him – and had for a long time, someone who was a biking partner etc. He said his friendships with these people were built around common interests, which I thought was fair enough.
After 6 months and visits back and forth, his romantic speil was not as effusive, which I thought normal. But I also began noticing a lot of inconsistencies and lies. I caught him out on a lie about where he was – he said he was in one city on work and it turned out that he was in another on vacation – and I knew it had to be with another woman! Anyway, i expressed my distrust and he accused me of being suspicious for no reason. He said I had a mental illness and should have my head examined. I got so blisteringly angry when he said this that I told him that I would prove to him that my suspicions were warranted. I embarked on a detective spree and uncovered 4 women who he was courting the same way. One was the official girlfriend in the city where he lived. The others were mistress-type girlfriends. I spoke with all of them. And then I presented him with the evidence. He did not have much to say other than that he had “done everything for me, shown me a good time, bought me gifts…” and did not know why I was upset. I know now that there are others. It is like he needs to get all the women he meets to fall in love with him.
Generally speaking, the term narcissist is less pejorative than the term sociopath. The reason for this is that some professionals view the behavior of narcissists as stemming from “low self esteem.” Thus, people feel sorry for narcissists, “He/she wouldn’t do that if he/she didn’t have such low self esteem.” Many sociopaths also recognize that narcissists are more highly regarded than are sociopaths, and so state, “I’m not a sociopath, I’m just a narcissist!”
A close friend of mine who has been on a quest for answers about the man who perpetrated love fraud against her came to the legitimate conclusion that the perpetrator is a narcissist. We have had many discussions about her situation. What bothered me about her description of this man as a narcissist was that it seemed to be part of an ongoing effort not to accept his inherently evil nature. If perpetrators are only trying to bolster their low self esteem, they can still be “good.” It may also be that it is easier to accept being victimized if the perpetrator is a narcissist. The reality that we have spent years of our lives loving an evil sociopath is truly difficult to accept.
So what is the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath? Generally speaking narcissists are less impulsive and higher functioning than are sociopaths. Both narcissists and sociopaths have a severe disorder of the Inner Triangle. Both are not capable of love, and have problems with moral reasoning. In fact, many experts say that a condition called “pathological narcissism” is the core problem that results in sociopathy/psychopathy. In conclusion then, the answer to our question is, “To a victim of love fraud, there is no difference between a narcissist and a sociopath.”
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
one_step_at_a_time says:
ellejay – that’s some powerful writing: clear, concise, spot on…and what you describe is oh so familiar.
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Aeylah says:
Ellejay,
my experience too! I was married for 18 years to a man whom I mourned in a normal way when we mutually agreed to divorce. I moved on to be healthy and productive again ….fast forward to me now, after a 4 year chaotic relationship with the spath. Anxious, depressed, un-emplooyed, and having addiction withdraw!…not the same vibrant person I was before.
Thank you for the elloquent description!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Ellejay,
“The Devil” “Satan” Yep, EVIL for the sake of evil, evil for enjoyment. Scary.
Thanks, great post!
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southernman429 says:
Ellejay you above post is right on the money!!….EXACTLY what I delt with and felt except mine was a female…also.. we are about the same time frame out, mine being 4 1/2 years now….I too researched this thing to death wondering if she was borderline, narcissist or sociopath, or whatever… at this point.. it really doesn’t matter what they are…the relationship and the years of healing afterwards has left a profound effect on me both good and bad…Sadly, I doubt I’ll ever be the same person as before…
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Southernman,
QUOTE: “I doubt I’ll ever be the same person as before!”
To that I say THANK GOD!!! I am so glad that I am NOT the same person I was before, because now I don’t live in CHAOS 24/7, I am not trying to FIX a psychopath(s) or endure humiliation and disrespect from them day in and day out.
Yep, Thank God that you are NOT the same person Southernman, you are a whole site better!!!! So don’t you forget that! I’m too tired to swing the skillet tonight after almost NO sleep last night during the “sleep-less apnea” test but I’ll yell out for EB and she’ll whack ya a good-un! LOL You now live P-FREE and if that ain’t an improvement, I do not know what is!!! God bless!
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southernman429 says:
Oxy…you crack me up!….my “before” was WITHOUT anxiety, trust issues with others and myself, self esteem issues, triggers, bad memories, pessimism, PTSD, and what appears to be a perpetual dark spot on my heart…yeah those are the negatives…..there are positives…two of which are that I’m no longer involved with her and that I’m alive and didn’t die………smiles
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Southernman,
Well, the old “a rose by any other name…..” thing is I think needed here.
Okay, you didn’t have any anxiety BEFORE, and now you DO. Well, the only reason you didn’t have any anxiety is because you were too naive to know there were snakes in the grass and you needed to watch out for them.
So NOW you have PREDATOR AWARENESS (we’ll call it that instead of “anxiety”)
BEFORE you didn’t have TRUST issues you said—you were so unaware that you BLINDLY trusted everyone to be honest and good. DUH!
NOW you have CAUTION instead of BLIND TRUST issues. That’s a BIG improvement in my book.
You say you have “self esteem issues” now. Well BEFORE you obviously thought yourself “smarter and wiser” that you were (for proof refer back to the Blind trust etc) So now, you realize YOU ARE HUMAN and YOU DON’T KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS IN THE WORLD, BUT…BUT….you now know and have faith in a God that does. “What will a man gain if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?” I think that’s a GOOD bargain, you gave up your reliance on human self and realized that you needed God. BIG improvement.
TRIGGERS now you say. Those are reminders to keep on the right path.
Bad memories now you say. Yep, so make some newer better memories.
Pessimisim, yea, but you can change that, it isn’t a tattoo after all. That is IN YOUR CONTROL.
So, yea, Southernman, I’m feeling perky today, and I had a bad day yesterday but today is good and I am perky and I got some sleep last night, so get off it and FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE because I have regained the strength in my right arm! (((Hugs)))) and God bless!
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KatyDid says:
Oxy,
Your post to Southernman is wonderful. I have been saving little bits that are so inspiring to me. This is a gem to add to my list. (hope that’s allowable, I know not to plagerize.)
Sorry you had a bad day yesterday. But today, your answer redefines several hurtful consequences into blessings. One of my little morning prayers is to thank God “for blessings known and unknown”. Your post is the perfect example of unknown blessings… but now KNOWN and savored instead of dreaded! Thank you so much.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear KatyDid,
Thanks, I’m glad what I said helped you. I kind of had a down day yesterday too (partly because of the all night “sleep apnea” test which I didn’t get much sleep!) so when we are TIRED or whatever, it comes out as a “bad” day, but we dont have to let that become a LIFE STYLE.
I got a good night’s sleep last night 8 full hours and though I didn’t want to get up this morning I did and within a few minutes I felt MUCH BETTER. So the thing is that we have to keep on trucking and not let those NEGATIVE FEELINGS about things get us down.
The glass is half full.
The glass is half empty.
The glass is the WRONG SIZE.
A situation feels different with a different “name.” So re-name your problems into challenges!
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KatyDid says:
Oxy,
Sorry to repeat myself but I don’t think you comprehend the value in your post.
For example: Like many people, I have come out the other side of my abusive life feeling older and wiser in that I no longer TRUST people, that I allow trust only as far as they have revealed themselves. I am wiser b/c I now know to be wary of the EVIL in the world.
So my constant mindset has been to keep up a high wall and protect myself. That leaves me feeling anxious much of the time, not knowing WHO to protect myself from, where the danger was coming from, but the worst was the FEELING of anxiety made me MORE anxious b/c I had the feeling without knowing the source, so I had NO WAY to calm the anxiety. Do you See the trap from my “older and wiser lesson”? I was stuck in it and didn’t even know it.
By seeing my anxiety as only a symptom of knowing there are snakes in the grass, it shrank the power it had over me. Magically, my anxiety is now a blessing, just a reminder that when I feel it, check for snakes. And then with the purpose served, I can feel calm again.
Another piece solved in my pursuit of healthy thinking. Just like the mantra I got from Hens:
I AM different.
I will NEVER be the same.
I AM making that a good thing.
Both were powerful posts and worth more than empathy (which is also extremely valuable but empathy is on the road to recovery, it is not the conclusion of recovery.). I was stuck, wanted to be unstuck, and didn’t know how to unstuck myself. Your post gave me that perspective…Freeing myself to be ‘different’ and that freedom is a GOOD thing!
With LOVE, KatyDid (b/c how can I feel less than love for someone who blessed me with such a gift?!!)
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Ox Drover says:
Dear KatyDid,
Thank you sweetie! I do feel your love and I feel that way about most of the posters here on Lovefraud–and it is so important to me to have that love and understanding. You are very welcome my dear! When I can help someone else besides helping myself it makes my “pleasure center” light up in my brain. Science has shown that is true, not just a “feeling.” Helping others is a pleasurable thing in humans that are not psychopathic. And they don’t get that kind of pleasure either! Just like theyy don’t “get” the feelings of closeness and bonding that normal people have for their children and their lovers.
I’m glad you are looking at the feelings and the differences you have NOW not as losses but as GAINS and “improvements” in the NEW AND IMPROVED KATYDID! The wiser, smarter, stronger, greater woman that you are becoming with each lesson that you learn and apply to yourself.
That’s what keeps me coming back here to LF, and I think that’s what keeps Hens (Henry) coming back too…is working n ourselves and to extend a hand to those newbies who are still in the emotional tidal wave of pain! I’m glad you are here KatYDid, I can tell from your posts that you are a kind, considerate and caring person—FORMERLY a perfect prey for a psychopath! But not now! You have your caution to keep you safe, and your knowledge that there IS evil in this world, and that you reserve your TRUST for those who have EARNED it—a little at a time over a period of time. (It isn’t just given out until it is betrayede, it is now your prescious trust, guarded for the valuable thing it is.) Living with caution, but not terror! ((((Hugs)))) and Love to you too, Katy. God bless.
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chinagirl says:
Ox-so true! I am not the same person and on my good days that IS a good thing! On my not so good days I am angry. Reading the posts about life partners, sex partners whatever….makes me wonder if I will ever want that again. I can’t even imagine it.
This might be too much information but i really have no one else that understands it but you all here…and that is the idea of sex is almost sickening to me right now. The thing I do know is that because of my own lack of boundaries and not standing up for myself (the good things I have learned in this) I did this to myself. the idea of someone touching me or me being vulnerable to someone, trusting someone? Unlikely right now. Does that change? I am sure it does but I can’t even imagine it. I hear many ask “will I trust again?” I ask the same thing. Will I ever trust? I am getting to trust myself more and more…knowing that when I see red flags I can trust that they are real and make a different game plan. I can better take care of myself. Slowly.
I also realize I have some childhood ptsd issues to work out, things I have never dealt with before now. Obviously that contributes to this pile of poop in a big way. It makes me so mad but someone was talking about gratitude above and that is where I need to stay. I am grateful that I have been able to get out of many things in my life….dealing with some crazy childhood stuff, dealing with xspath, dealing with spath brother and being able to have some insight and change the things I need to about myself. I am thankful that I have lived through it for one! and been able to start changing.
ElleJay-great post. I, too, believe I lived with the devil. Looking into his eyes was scary. I noticed even when I was dating him. I remember just being afraid of those eyes. I have said this before but he would continuously talk about his “dark side” more likely he would try to talk about MY dark side! He needed to know someone else had a dark side. I think he liked the fact I was addicted to vicodin….it made him feel superior, better than and like he wasn’t alone in his darkness. However, my darkness was nothing like his. His is evil in a way i cannot comprehend. I told him just before I got sober that I needed to go to the hospital. I told him what was happening and that I wouldn’t have anything, not a marriage, husband, child anything if I was on vicodin. he actually told me that I didn’t need to go to the hosptial! Later, a few months into my sobriety i told him i would let him out of the marriage because I felt so bad about having used in the marriage (it was our first year of marriage) and he said NO, he didn’t want me to leave. I thought he had forgiven me. But what he did was use it against me the next 6 years and hold onto a resentment. it fueled his behavior I think. It justified his horribleness to me. It justified his affair, his emotional affair, his rape (of me that he admitted to in therapy). his gaslighting. He, too, would go to friends, after being a crazy man at me and say “I am so worried about her”. He did this all the time and I didn’t know what he was doing. Now I do. Gaslight, making me feel and look crazy. i had the drug addiction in the past. Of course I was the crazy one! No wonder he wanted to tell everyone he met about my recovery. He told people in the hospital like the CEO! Why he needed to know is beyond me! who does this stuff? An evil person with no heart.
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fearlesspeace says:
Hi Chinagirl,
I totally hear you about being completely turned off from relationship, sex or otherwise. Dad at the park was doing awkward interested divorced dad stuff and I was so disgusted I couldn’t even look at him. I don’t know how I will know if someone has good intentions with me. I have been so wrong about people so many times giving my trust when I shouldn’t have. I am nauseated just thinking about it.
One thing you said, I don’t agree with, I didn’t do this to myself. I was twisting in the wind for a while trying to make my marriage work, trying to love this man who knew he didn’t love me back. I did things the best way I knew how, with the best intentions. I DID NOT DO THIS. I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY LIFE. I change the things I can not accept. I had big lessons to learn about the REAL WORLD, but I DID NOT do this to myself. If I am in denial call me out LF friends, but I would have never seen this coming. I was BLINDSIDED, SUCKER PUNCHED, DEFRAUDED. I was not, I am not a guilty party. And yes, the world looks pretty good from up here or that’s just what I tell myself with my overturned gut, crushed heart, legal and financial worries. CHINAGIRL, Nothing justifies what he did to you!!! What he did to you was crazy, evil behavior, your relapse is not to blame. Please do not blame yourself for his behavior!!! You did not cause him to make those choices to carry out his agenda. Hope that you are feeling better each day and hear looks of good things from your daughter!!!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
YOU NAILED IT, he was NOT bragging on your “recovery” he was making sure everyone knew you had been a DRUG ADDICT in the past (present?)!!! They even turn the GOOD things we do into POOP! Talk about gaslighting!
It is kind of like the old deal about “you can tell a girl her face would STOP TIME, or you can tell her it will STOP A CLOCK!” It is all in how you say it, so he took this “good” thing and used it to BEAT YOU with, and if you had said “WHY did you do this?” He would have just said “Oh, dear, because I am so PROUD OF YOU”
He knew you would realize you’d been shafted and embarrassed but he could put the SPIN on it of “I’m so proud” of you! BULL CARP!
I just sit here and shake my head and realize that the psychopaths have all used everything they could find or dig up or just plain lie to make me look bad. the day I woke up to mt egg donor’s gaslighting and MALICE was when she first accused me of being after her money. She was upset and just raving at me. Then later that day she called me (I had left her house with my mouth open in shock) and “apologized” for “anything I said that you perceived hurt you” (that was her FAKE “apology”) and Ii told her she KNEW I HAD NEVER TAKEN MONEY FROM HER ever. Even when I was in college and struggling with 2 kids, I BORROWED money for my kids but I PAID IT BACK WITH INTEREST.
She said “Oh, I didn’t mean that, I JUST SAID IT TO HURT YOU.”
” I just did it to HURT you.”
“I just did it to HURT YOU.”
What kind of person, much less a mother, does that to their child, even adult child? That was when I realized that she was malicious. That all the times she had said and done things that hurt me were DELIBERATE. I had always pushed them back and said “Oh, she didn’t MEAN TO HURT ME.” But then I realized she DID mean to hurt me.
The times she contradicted herself I always said “Oh, she just forgot what she promised, she would NEVER LIE TO ME.”
OH YES she would LIE. Like a rug. Oh, yes, she would intentionally HURT ME. Stab me in the back. accuse me of things she knew were not true. Smear my name to her friends and our community. YEP–that is when she became my EGG DONOR, because she did not EARN the right to be anyone’s mother.
My son D ran into one of my egg donor’s friends who thanked him profusely for “being so loyal and sacrifice for taking care of poor Oxy” (because after all you know, she is out of her mind!)
THAT is gaslighting at its best, when they can appear the VICTIM or the LONG SUFFERING ONE…(head shaking here) But Chinagirl, hang on there, you are making progress each day. He is NOT going to win in the end.
You are clean and sober. You are recovering and he will never recover…he will be what he is until the day he dies. Just keep working toward reestablishing your relationship with that wonderful baby girl. Right now, it may actually be best for her to be with her step mother who seems to care for her, this will give you a break to look after your own needs right now, and he is probably ignoring the child for the most part. If she had a caring step mother she is at least for the moment safe. At least she isn’t alone with the devil! (((Hugs)))) keep the faith and keep on working the programs!!!! God bless.
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chinagirl says:
Thanks Oxy….It is so sad when we finally realize that yes, this person who is supposed to love us is doing something evil. I cannot fathom how a mother can do something like that. My own mother lied to me, talked about me to my children, pitted me against my brother and vice versa…no wonder he is hates me…she participated and didn’t help him get over his abaondonment issues as a child (but obviously he is now an adult and responsible for HIMSELF..but not doing that).
I am so sorry that you went through that with your mother and your son. It is just hideous. Look at who are you now. An incredibly strong woman who is helping countless others….I see it everyday reading your responses to people and your responses and encouragement to me. You are on here daily spending your valuable time with us. That is amazing. And your wisdom is needed…your analogies are superb! and the love you share is beautiful. I know I speak for many others when I say thank you. thank you for taking the time to hear my story and to give me much needed encouragement and boinks on the head! It never comes across as being ‘better than’ it comes across in a loving and caring way. You can be the mother to yourself that you needed because you are that to us. The loving mother that we needed to tell us these things when we were younger, to teach us these boundaries and how to take care of ourselves but didn’t get. Well, I’ll speak for myself! in that I didn’t get that from my mother. I always searched for a mentor, mother substitute and although I love my mother and wish she was still here because I always believe in healing she hurt me quite a lot as a child and as an adult.
Thanks for your wisdom and care! You are right, my xspath is NOT going to win and I am grateful for my D’s step mom. I have just now realize, after finding lf, how much more recovery I need from this and the past five years have been just me spinning around and around making things worse! No mas! And i am clean and sober. I had five years when I left xspath, relapsed for a bit and now have three years again. SO~! towanda and ADAMANT!! LOL
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chinagirl says:
Fearless-thanks for reminding me that he did do this! I only have responsibility in how I respond now….I know better for myself and that doesn’t mean I might not get into another horrible relationship. i might make a mistake being fooled again. I HOPE NOT and I will probably do a lot of reality checks with trusted people like LF until I can feel safe in my judgments, you know? But what I really mean is that I didn’t have good boundaries and had i been healthier emotionally I wouldn’t have ignored the red flags I saw with him prior to our marriage. I think, anyway! But, now I probably am too aggressive as I learn to be assertive but i don’t care! If I hurt some guys feelings oh well. I will NOT be pushed into anything I don’t want to do. I am saying NO all the time now! And I am not apologizing for it nor am I explaining it.
The idea of being in a relationship where I have to “compromise” and work on things etc is just not where I want to be right now! I want to be with me (and D). I want to take care of me and my D. I want to nurture me and D. I need to be the mother to myself that I didn’t get to have. The really cool thing is I know I am a good mom. My kids adore me and my 26yo son hugs and kisses me, calls me several times a week, tells me he loves me. Asks for advice, wants me to help him design his house etc…His dad and I did a good job! My D doesn’t want to be with xspath…but she is smart and she has a decent step mom to help her right now. I have faith that she is being watched over and cared for until I can take back my primary role.
I guess it doesn’t really matter if I can’t imagine the idea of dating right now. When it is right I will know it. Until that time I won’t sweat it. I will take care of me, keep building my practice, doing what I can each day to get stronger and smarter and get that ADAMANT going and get my D back. That is what matters most to me. I don’t have to date right now! Wow, what freedom to just even say it and realize it.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
Right now focusing on YOU and D is the best and ONLY thing you need to do.
Learning to TRUST YOURSELF to keep yourself safe will come in time, but right now, don’t even worry about it. It isn’t important right this minute.
What we have to do is to prioritize our energy, just like you would make a bank account of money and pay the most important bills first, we have to make a bank account of energy and pay the most important thing first—OURSELVES. You are actually fortunate that as painful as it is for you right now, you don’t have to worry about seeing your daughter gets enough sleep, or a roof, or homework, you can concentrate on the more important parts right now. Your strength and your relationship.
You’ve already made some good choices, and I know things will progress! I’m proud for you and proud of you. You’re getting your head on right! First things first! (((Hugs))) and TOWANDA!!!!
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chinagirl says:
One more thing OxD-
My xspath DID say exactly what you wrote to me. I asked him why in the world would he need to tell the CEO of the hospital about my recovery when i wasn’t working as a nurse anesthetist there and didn’t need to disclose that to anyone at the hospital. He said “I am so proud of you!” BULLSHIT. ‘scuse my language. Yeah so proud that he sabotoged all my recovery functions. Got mad if i didn’t take care of him because I had to go to a meeting. Allowed his mother to hide alcohol in the trunk of MY car (they borrowed when the flew out to visit us) and to go and mix jack daniels and whatever in her morning coffee cup! He wouldn’t stand up to them. He said he didn’t want to get in the middle. But allow her to drink around me and cause the chaos. Oh well. I don’t have to have that chaos any more! It is wonderful!
Wow, gaslighting is so very scary…
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chinagirl says:
Thanks Ox, it really feels good to be supported and encouraged and to hear the things I need to hear..such as taking care of me and not worrying about anything else. So true.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
They sabotage us in every way possible. While him having booze around is no excuse for you taking it, it is a way that they can undercut us and make our recovery more difficult.
I haven’t had the trouble THIS time in quitting cigarettes that I have always has before (not sure why) but even folks smoking around me doesn’t bother me much if any now. But I know one thing, I have made up my MIND that NOTHING will come between me and my NOT SMOKING.
Just like the “new nutrition plan” (don’t say diet!) I am DETERMINED THIS TIME….no fooling myself! No BSing ME!
You can do it, I know you can!!!! (((hugs))))
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chinagirl says:
I know! Her drinking didn’t make me want to drink-it was more the principle that she knew it and so did he. That he wouldn’t stand with me against her behavior, etc. Even at that time, new in my recovery I said something to her and boy did I pay. she wouldn’t talk to me, or she would yell at me when alone. I finally stopped being around her alone, stopped going to see his family at the end. It was just too much and not worth my sanity and freedom.
The sad thing is I wanted to be a part of his family. I worked hard to let them “in”, tell them about me, esp. because my r/s with my mom was difficult and not what I wanted. I thought I had found a family that would be fun and loving etc. Just like I thought he would be my family, too. Wow. What a huge let down. things I disclosed about myself to ‘let them in’ were used against me. I was yelled at, sworn at, put down and that was by his mother and sister. YUCK! I had NEVER been talked to in the way she talked to me. Even my own mother wasn’t that cruel. My mom had her issues but his mom caused more chaos then I had ever been a part of. so glad to not be in it any more. So glad!!
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Ox Drover says:
Chinagirl, we can say HIS APPLE DIDN’T FALL FAR FROM HIS MATERNAL TREE DID IT!?!
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chinagirl says:
No kidding OxD! 2 peas in a familial pod….glad to be out is all I can say! NOTHING is worth being in that hell. He would always tell me I caused so much chaos. And I believed him. But since being gone my life has become less chaotic. and on a daily basis there really is no chaos. I finally can step back and see all the times HE caused the chaos and SHE caused the chaos. Every trip we went on with her she had some kind of temper tantrum, throwing things, melting down. A grown woman! Obviously alcohol didn’t help her….nor did her nightly xanax! Whenever she came to visit I spent a lot of time in Al Anon. LOL
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ErinBrock says:
China….that’s what I say to describe our lives when spath was here….
It was ALWAYS chaos…..if not one thing another….every day!
As soon as he left, I felt my shoulders drop to normal leval.
Never knew they were up to my ears daily.
Bracing myself for the next drama.
Yes….still got some drama…..all spath cleanup…..
One day, I will dance in the fields of daisey’s naked with Dancing Warrior.
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chinagirl says:
EB, no kidding! When I left that first week in my condo with my D it was bliss. I could tell I was coming back again…in just a few short days. And I lost weight, my skin shined, my eyes cleared…I was happy! I, too, had chronically hunched shoulders with a pinched looked on my face LOL. I became relaxed, care free in a way, happy, silly and playful with D (that was always the case except for the last 6 months when I was super depressed) and not depressed. Everyone noticed the change. Then, a few months later when I realized that there was hell to pay, well, I began my downhill fall into the dark abyss that is the spath. And as we know five years later here I am. But, although the hunched shoulders, pinched face etc is slow to leave, it is leaving. I am beginning to start to feel like the new me is emerging. Thanks mostly to LF and the advice and my ability to listen! and begin to stand up for myself and my D. Wow, what a life! i just read something today that someone named “Gift in Dirty Paper” and he basically was saying, “when bad things happen to me these days I try very hard to see how that bad thing, no matter what it is, could actually be the best thing that happened.” I like that. It is a better way for me to live daily. I don’t like walking around being angry. I’d rather look for solutions, you know?
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ErinBrock says:
““Gift in Dirty Paper” and he basically was saying, “when bad things happen to me these days I try very hard to see how that bad thing, no matter what it is, could actually be the best thing that happened.”
I LOVE THAT!
Thanks for sharing that quote from your friend. Never heard it put that way.
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chinagirl says:
I know, I do too, because I just have to do what i can to stay positive…I can so easily drop into the abyss….if I think too much or have bad dreams (which I still do a lot). As i said i just do not want to be angry all the time. i don’t like myself like that. I know that I have always been a happy person, even as a little kid..always happy…and because my mom couldn’t “discipline” without being angry or putting me down or telling me in the insidious ways she did that I was just not good enough she almost broke my spirit. Somehow I have been able to hang onto the real me throughout…and since learning here on LF and working on these issues I have come to realize that the real me is still in there and I want her to come out!
Also, I think that quote was from Martin Seligman…a psychologist. I wrote a friend of mine said that but mis spoke! sorry! Was posting last night with a severe migraine…
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Ox Drover says:
“Gift in dirty paper” is a great way of saying that. So many times–let me repeat that—MANY TIMES, things that I thought were HORRIBLE BLOWS turned out later to have been the VERY THING that saved my life, that were a GREAT BLESSING and without that “horrible” thing happening, the later WONDERFUL BLESSING wouldn’t have been possible.
Due to down sizing, I lost my job at the college health services that I LOVED. I had developed it from scratch and they made it PART TIME, (there goes my insurance!) I was CRUSHED! Cried, mourned! But, couple of weeks later, found a great job, great benefits ONLY WORKING WEEKENDS at a hospital. WOW! 5 days a week off to be home. Shortly after that my beloved step dad was diagnosed with cancer—If I had been working at the college I could not have had the time to be with him. BLESSING!!! Plus, for the year and a half before my husband died I got to spend time with HIM 5 days a week, be with , step father, and spend time outdoors on the farm where I wanted to be.
So losing the job I loved which made me feel like my world had caved in, was a BLESSING setting me up for time with my husband before he died, time with my stepfather during his illness and death and believe me, THOSE HOURS AND DAYS I SPENT WITH THEM ARE THE MOST PRECIOUS MEMORIES I HAVE. If I hadn’t lost that job, I wouldn’t have had time. Also, if I hadn’t lost that job I would not have been able to be WITH MY HUSBAND between the crash and when he died. I would have been at work and there would have been no way I could have gotten to him in time.
I can look back at my life and see HUNDREDS of things that I thought were BAD to one degree or another, but every one of them turned out in the END to have been a blessing in one way or another. I don’t care how “dirty or ugly” the wrapping paper is, just keep the idea in your mind that the GIFT may be much much prettier than you can imagine.
Sometimes it is like a baby parrot, it is BUTT UGLY AT FIRST, BUT WHEN IT IS MATURED IT IS GLORIOUS!
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chinagirl says:
OxD as I was reading what you wrote above I remembered when dating my now xspath I had been praying for a husband. I was 38 at that time and wanted another child or three. (part of me also wanted to be rescued and to leave the state I was living…which i could have done myself!!)
I had been set up with my now x and people we worked with thought we’d make a great couple. I wasn’t attracted to him at first and remember thinking he’s not my type. But, after doing what many women do and what used to make me hooked in (having sex too early) I found myself unable to see the red flags or to detach from him after emotionally and sexually “bonding” with him (I have learned A LOT since then!)
He was already doing things that were unacceptable but being invested in him kept me allowing him to be a jerk. I over looked the really important things because he was a physician (and I thought that would mean smart, dependable, have integrity and that my future would be secure). I thought he was honest, kind, GENTLE! and thinking he was so great with pets that I thought he must be a kind person. (WHATEVER! it’s embarrassing to write and hear myself now)
So when he was doing his push pull thing with me I had my future planned out with him…and when he was pulling away I’d pray and pray for a husband. Not pray for the right husband, or a kind man or God’s plan or will but I prayed for him because I had invested myself in him. I pleaded for this man to be my husband. I was ready to be married again. It had been 15 years since my son’s dad and I split (we are very good friends….never should have left him but that is another story). I thoguht I was ready to be a wife and mother again and almost felt desperate (which should have been the sign for me). So, God gave me what I thought i wanted…and wow talk about be careful what you pray for. I sure paid the price for that desperate plea!
Now I pray to be open to do God’s will. I learned a lot of patience having four miscarriages with xspath and then adopting. My D is a BLESSING that I couldn’t have ever imagined in my own pea brain. I learned how to let go and trust in the process…something I am having to do now as well. Already I have grown up so much in just the past month seeing the areas in my life that needed change. It’s humbling that at the age of 51 I am just now growing up!
So Ox I udnerstand completely how blessings come when we think the worst thing has happened to us…now I pray to see the blessings, too. But remembering my prayers for husband I also have changed the way I pray!!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I too! I now pray for “whatever YOU think I need, God, and I TRUST that whatever happens is what I need, because I know you would not give me something to hurt me!” (ALL things work together for good to those that love the Lord) so TRUSTing is important too.
We have to pray like it all depends on God and work like it all depends on US.
God promised if we had enough faith we could MOVE MOUNTAINS, but he did NOT say that we wouldn’t have to GET A SHOVEL and dig!
I don’t expect to just by “faith” make the rocky mountains disappear but I do believe if I have enough “faith” that I can dig through them and grab a shovel, I can make a dint in them.
So we must have faith and work toward a goal…but not try to TELL God what to do or how to run the universe. You know it runs better now that I quit MICRO-MANAGING GOD! LOL
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ellejay says:
Hi all
I’ve spent a lot of time reading back through posts, reading old posts, catching up. I appreciate all the the comments made to my long overdue post.
Southernman – your words “the relationship and the years of healing afterwards has left a profound effect on me both good and bad…Sadly, I doubt I’ll ever be the same person as before… ” hit a chord in me.
I know that there is a lot I have gained from this experience in terms of growing, learning about myself, clawing my way back up from a pit of despair and dealing mainly with the pain of having this person invade my sanity and try to tear it down. I know that. I read it here in all the positive posts. I feel it most of the time.
But I also know that a little part of me that I once valued so much has gone. I used to have a much greater sense of joy and happiness, I smiled a lot, and I was generally a happy person. I am stronger. I am more aware. I also find I have to work at it a bit harder. It is easy for me to find myself ruminating, even now. The pain isn’t anywhere as intense. But I still find myself unable to really satisfy myself with answers. Every story I read is different to mine, but the same. I have a little tiny core of sadness I just can’t seem to overcome. The sadness is for me. I lost sight of my self, my values, my self esteem, my belief system – they were all badly shaken by my experience. I had to do a LOT of work on myself and how I could allow one human being to have such a deeply disturbing and profound affect on me.
He’s still there, lurking around in the deep recesses of my mind. Rarely a day goes past that he might pop up in my head, even if only for a second or two. A constant reminder of how I was so easily fooled, manipulated, conned. A constant reminder of how powerfully I loved, was spellbound, and yes I think, addicted.
Mine was more the silent type. He could be verbally abusive, but it was more with clever use of confusing words, questioning my reality. It was the way words were delivered with contempt. Even though I realised I was up against something way out of my league to deal with in terms of his supreme intellect and always ahead of the game, I never stopped trying to convince myself that he couldn’t be all that bad. There must be a good person in there somewhere.
His ability to remain silent was astonishing. He could lock me out of the house and still somehow it felt like I deserved it even when my rational self knew that was far from the truth. He would remain silent.
It was through his communication I suffered. He could be so loving and attentive – so ruthlessly cold and dismissive. On one occasion when I had discovered he was texting at least six other women, sexually explicit texts, obviously one or two he had met up with, he asked me cooly and calmly “why do you worry about such stupid and trivial things?” and walked off to bed and went into a deep sleep within minutes, in the face of my distress, leaving me standing with my jaw on the floor. I hadn’t banked on that. I thought he might be contrite, sorry, embarrassed, try to explain. He neither admitted, nor denied. That was one of his cleverest ploys.
I was supposed to “endure” and when I finally left him, without warning, literally fleeing from the home a shadow of the woman I once had been, he admonished me for making a “mistake I would regret” and that he “understood – the bridges had fallen down” – he never once apologised, or asked me to go back to him, instead sending me messages of how I had let him down by showing him I didn’t need him. Not passionately. Just factual statements.
It was the strangest 2 years of my life – it created so much doubt in my head about what was right or wrong any more and I still suffer from that. I still struggle with boundaries. When I feel them being crossed, I am still able to sit and wonder if it’s really ok for me to angry about that. I have done a lot of work, but I still suffer from doubt about my own ability to recognise when I am being treated unfairly or unjustly. I used to even wonder if I was wrong to be angry at him for lying. Madness. Complete madness.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Ellejay,
Glad to see you back. Your posts makes a lot of sense. I think, for what it’s worth, that we lose TRUST IN OURSELVES to KEEP OURSELVES SAFE.
The self-doubt I felt, the utter STOOPIDITY of being so deceived by so many, being gaslighted, reality twisted, thinking they loved me, realizing they didn’t ACT like it though….left me feeling more that I had let myself down than what they had done. Which was bad enough! It took me more time to “forgive’ MYSELF and to TRUST myself again than it took me to get “over” what THEY did.
Still have some sad or negative days or thought tracks from time to time..
The problem in the past with me was that there was no solid boundary, no point at which I would not let the person back into my “circle of trust”—no matter how painful the betrayal was if they were “family” or “close friends.”
I could stand my ground with outsiders, but not with those close to me….and I let too many people get too close.
Now I can trust myself, because I KNOW I will defend my boundaries and I know what those boundaries ARE. There isn’t any equivocating about “what the boundaries are” or who can cross them and who can’t. THERE is the line, don’t cross it, no matter who you are. LIE TO ME, CHEAT ME, show me you are dishonest or mean and you are OUT of my circle of trust forever. Have a nice life. Go away. Don’t need you. What part of Fark off do you not understand? Bye bye! No second chances, no third chances, I’m DONE!
It seems so simple now, just set limits and enforce them….but it sure wasn’t at the time…and yea, Ellejay, it is OKAY TO GET ANGRY! Anger is our friend! It tells us that someone is doing something nasty to someone! Heck, even Jesus got angry! If it’s good enough for Him, it is good enough for me!
Glad you are making progress! You are relearning to trust yourself agaiin! (((Hugs)))) and God bless.
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ellejay says:
Thanks for this Ox Drover, I hadn’t seen it quite so clearly this way, that is more I’ve lost the ability to trust myself. I was fooled once before simply by being a decent human being. What’s that saying – “treat people the way you expect to be treated?” Sure as hell doesn’t work in Sociopathic/Narcissistic/General loon tune world does it? I once fervently believe that if you treat people well, they returned the favour. Especiall one who (initially anyway) made you feel like their long lost and finally found perfect soulmate. So you love them. They encourage that well don’t they? I mean who can resist a man makling you feel like you are the only woman in the world for them? A man who literally seems to charm anyone he meets.
I had never come across someone who could lie to you so boldly, ignore you for days at a time and then wonder what your problem was, cry like a baby when you finally got really really angry, dismissive of you if you were emotionally weak and showed distress. Trouble was, I was madly in love with him before these little oddities became apparent, and when we love, we tend to justify/rationalise those little oddities as not really the worst thing, in the scheme of things. They creep up on you, the moments in between so good it’s easy to forget those little oddities until you are on your own, away from their power, in the cold light of day. You suddenly find yourself thinking about one of those little oddities, and wondering. Then things move along quite nicely until the next weird little thing happens, and the next, and they drop their mask just a tad, just enough to make you wonder if they are all they seem. You start doubting yourself, after all, on the whole, well he seems so great doesn’t he? Or does he? Little lies, plausible reasons, bit of doubt creeps in. If you aren’t satisfied by the plausible reason, then you are made to feel bad while he moves into victime mode. If that doesn’t do it, silent treatment.
That’s when my loss of self belief started to creep in. A lot of the lies made no sense – he didn’t really need the lie. Some of them were just downright weird, like telling me he had joined a rugby club in his new location, and he couldn’t wait to play. Telling me about each game in detail. (We lived apart for some time initially as he got a job overseas) Phoning me in excitement to tell me he found a sports shop and bought some rugby boots. Why do I tell you this, you wonder. Well he went to such lengths to tell me about all this. I wasn’t really that bothered, I wasn’t there at the time. But I tried to be interested in it all.
A year later I was to find those rugby boots. Still in the box. Still all wrapped with the labels on. Never worn.
I can remember sitting for a long long time (quite funny really) staring at those boots. All his words kind of floating around my head as I tried to figure out how this could make any kind of sense. And a weird kind of feeling, a bit of dread, creeping up from my stomach as I began to realise I had come across a few things by then that didn’t make sense, but somehow realising he could make this story up, could he make up others too?
Then you would spend time with him, and his charm, his intellect, his (apparent) devotion and affection, and you would doubt you could think such harsh things and there must be some rational explanation.
After a long time of “there must be some explanation” and his realising I was beginning to catch on, his tactics started. Silences. Gaslighting. Confusing me. Denying things, telling me I was unstable. Always done in a gentle, patronising voice, with a smile that never quite reached the eyes.
Yet by then I had the image of him that I believed, and loved, not this image, not this cold uncaring man. I could never quite bring the two images together and see it for what it was.
So yes, by the time I realised I had to get away, I was too enmeshed, too confused, too hurt, to see how I had been taken in, and totally lost trust in my “self”. Where were my boundaries? Where were my values and self respect? Where did they go? Out the window?
I have noticed that like you say, it’s harder to set the line in the sand with people you care for. And that’s when I feel all those old feelings rush up, as soon as someone steps over a line. I find myself doubting, uncertain, a little afraid. You would think I would rise up and punch their lights out really!!
How do you re define your boundaries when your reality has been so confused you don’t even know if boundaries exist?
Perhaps that’s a question I should put out their ?
Thanks again for taking the time to read, and then give me such an insightful response. It does help. Enormously.
LJ
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Ox Drover says:
Dear ellejay,
I actually sat down and wrote out some “boundaries” that I called DEAL KILLERS—meaning that if someone does this to me or somene else and I know about it, they will NOT RETAIN OR GET MY TRUST and I will not allow them inside my heart again unless there is some real and I mean REAL behavior changes and acknowledgments.
1. People who LIE
2. DIShonesty, or track record of such in the past (exconvict, drunk driving etc) people who take things that are not theirs. People who cheat on their spouse or GF/BF.
3) addictions, alcohol, drugs, or anything else that becomes THE most important thing in their life
4) Just plain nasty tempered and grumpy as a way of life, unkind to others like waiters, etc.
5) financially irresponsible, broke because of bad planning—like not carrying car insurance etc. and then wreck the car, that is a PLANNING PROBLEM not a wreck problem. Don’t pay their child support or whatever….
6) trouble holding a job
Why do I need people with any of those “problems” in my life?
I looked around and you know I had several people in my life who STOLE from me and I was afraid of huring THEIR FEELINGS WHY? LOL I had people who were mooching off me, and I was afraid to tell them NO Why?
I TREAT OTHERS THE WAY I WANT TO BE TREATED
AND
I EXPECT OTHERS TO TREAT ME AS WELL AS I TREAT THEM.
Period, end of that discussion. Treat me the way I treat you or GO AWAY, GET THE HELL GONE, AND DON’T COME BACK. LOL
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stolen_innocence says:
LJ
OMGsh….mine was so much the same!!! (Mine played college lacrosse..oh wait no he didn’t he he just said he did) Thats why I still struggle. He was wonderful for 8 months, then quirky but still wonderful, then an all out Jekell and Hyde. I remember who I fell for in the beginning. I too cannot rationalize how the two are in the same body.
That is the hardest part….I still miss who I thought he was….I miss that terribly. I miss the fact that I thought I had an amazing love with this man….I the image and now all i see is the monster. But it still hurts like crazy!!!
Ox…why didn’t I have you around when I was with him. He fails all but number 4. I love the reminder that it is ok to EXPECT things of people. I can EXPECT honesty without being unreasonable!!!!
So here is my confession…please dont yell at me. I broke the NC rule. I was so pissed. A new lie was revealed to me and I was just too pissy to let him get away with it. So I confronted him (email). Why I still feel the need for him to acknowledge all the lies, cheats, and manipulation???
Are these typical responses for a spath….
*You’re obsessing and will try an villanize me in any and every way you possibly can to yourself and anyone who will listen.
* There was a period of time where I thought that I could be friends with her and still date you, when I thought we could work through whatever issues and be together. That changed when I decided that it was more inportant to me to see her again.*
Then he said this when I confronted him on another inconsistency
**I didn’t know which day you were talking about, not that it really matters I’ve given up trying to explain anything to you. You don’t think I cared about you, that I conned you out of your money, while “betraying you in every possible way” that’s fine. I know that loved you and then I didn’t. You say that’s not possible, and that I must have lied about loving you in the first place, fine. I’ve apologized to you several times for the way things ended but you’ve always dismissed it so I gave up on that too. You’ll get your 13k back soon trust me, nothing will make me happier.
**iPod… about that. I smashed that f#@&er to little tiny bits after I got the only email I’ve gotten from my uncle since our break up asking me to return it to you.
**If you want to believe that I emotionally and financially “conned” you then that’s up to you but it’s complete garbage.
Yall…he lied to me about everything!!!!! From the day we met he lied about his education, why he lived where he did, having a commission coming soon, his “life”history, relocating on my dime for a job that didn’t exist. Like LJ said he lied about stuff and made stories up that he never needed to….complete fiction that never needed to be told. This man even told someone else that he couldn’t date because he lost his fiancee in the towers on 911….who does this crap.
And then he tells me that “it doesn’t really matter” It matters!!!! Living your life as a lie matters. He has a warrant in Minnesota for credit card fraud….He has started an investment fund lying about his educational credentials and work history. HE ruined his sisters credit by starting a publishing company with her credit and running off to Mexico when it failed. He didn’t pay his taxes last year for cash work that he did…IT MATTERS!!!!!! How can he sit there and say that honesty and hurting people doesn’t matter???!!???
I’m sorry….I am just a person who believes in justice. I believe in write and wrong. I’m just supper pissy tonight after the hurricane blew through!!! OK…lesson learned tomorrow starts NC again!!!!
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Ox Drover says:
Sweetie, I know you believe in JUSTICE and we all DESERVE justice, but we won’t get it from THEM. Sometimes we can have them arrested, or lose their job, or kick their sorry butts out of the house and some3times even make them pay child support, and sometimes it isn’t even worth our time to try.
NO contact gives us time to heal wihtout being hit by new arrows every day. Without having to hear their lies and psychological-warfare.
It’s like they are beseiging us and trying to get us to give up. We just have to hunker down most of the time unless what they are doing is illegal and then we go to the court and file for a RESTRAINING ORDER, and we enforce it.l
Change phone number, block e mail, block on FB and tw2itter, tell our real friends that they are NOT TO SPEAK TO HIM ABOUT YOUR, AT ALL. iF his FRIENDS COME TO YOU AND WANT TO TALK–GIVE THEM THE SILENT TREATMENT—walk away.
This is the ONLY “closure” you will get from him if he is like most creeps.
BE SAFE above all else. He will get worse for a while, making more efforts to contact you but you cannot give him ANY contact because that is what is called “intermittent reinforcement” which will make him continue on for a much longer time. Right now any NOTICE from you even a fight is what he wants.
Being shut out by you is a big ego injury and so he will upo the stakes and efforts for a while. If he is the time that might shhow up at your work and make a scene, keep calm, and call the police. Or security. Change locks on your house and you might invest in a small hideable nanny cam set up so if he does break into your car or home you have proof.
BE cool calm and collected around him, do NOT react—go home and cuss and scream and cry but hold it together in any court hearings. The day I spoke to the judge at the bail hearing for the Trojan Horse Psychopath and my DIL who had tried to kill my son, I was shaking inside so bad I was VIBRATING but my son said that I did well when I talked to the judge and he raised the bail to $150,000 (it would have been like $3500 if I hadn’t spoken) so they didn’t bond out hee hee)
I should have won the academe award for BEST ACTRESS that year, because I was SCARED, Terrified, and I apparently pulled it off like a champ—we’ve had to learn to ACT around the Ps to keep from pithing them off, so we are good actors, and sometimes we need to use that for OUR benefit!
It is amazing what talents we have that we don’t even know we have.
Kind of like the woman who had been a stay-at-home-mom and needed a job and she didn’t think she had any job “skills:”
Her friend said, “Of course you do, you are a DOMESTIC ENGINEER, you are a nutrition specialist for children, you are an economyist living on a budget and providing for a family. You aqre a car mechanic in fixing the old heap and keeping it running. You are a nurse, qualified to take care of the sickest children. You are a preschool teacher and have taught your class well, you are a sports coach…..and so on and on….naming all the things that a stay-at-home-mom is capable of and required to do on a daily basis.
We have other skills to that we learned by living with an interacting with the psychopaths that also increase our ability to be strong and to accomplish many things. It is that strength that has kept us alive.
I think you have got strength and determination that he knows nothing about!!!! You GO GF!!!!! ((((hugs)))))
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