A deeper understanding of love, ourselves and the sociopath
PDF Although we think of love as an emotion, it is really more like a drive. Emotions come and go, whereas drives, like love, tend to persist. All emotions are associated with distinct facial expressions, whereas love is not. Love (like all of the basic drives I have discussed in this blog) is difficult to control. Furthermore, the most recent scientific research indicates that all drives, including love, are associated with activation of the brain pathway called the mesolimbic dopamine pathway.
Attraction: the first stage of love
Love, like other drives, is associated with wanting to get something. That something we are talking about here is a partner. The first stage of love, then, involves seeking out a partner. Scientists have called this the attraction phase. It is important for each person to understand how the attraction phase works within himself/herself. There are both conscious and unconscious parts to attraction.
The attraction phase involves the senses, primarily sight and smell. There may be chemicals that activate the brain through smell that we are not consciously aware of. Similarly, we may like the way someone looks and not be sure why. Our conscious mind and unconscious mind may be looking for different things in a partner. The unconscious mind plays a big role in our partner selection process.
It is important to realize that we can be taken over and captivated by attraction. Some of the symptoms of attraction or falling in love are “butterflies in the stomach,” clammy hands and racing heart. These symptoms are direct evidence of the physical nature of the love drive.
There is pleasure associated with getting the objects of our drives. In the brain, this pleasure involves many important chemicals like dopamine and the endorphins. Contact with the lover is also pleasurable because it releases oxytocin. This chemical produces reward by calming us down. (It doesn’t matter that it is the lover’s fault that we need calming.) Oxytocin is a powerful, natural anti-anxiety chemical.
The attraction phase usually lasts no more than 18 months. The reason for this is that it is too consuming. People have to be able to function, and when our energies are over focused on a lover, we aren’t as productive in other areas. Furthermore, the attraction phase has only one purpose. That is to get us hooked. When the pleasure chemicals and anxiety relieving chemicals are released in the brain, a compulsion is formed. That compulsion is to be with the lover. So the love that starts out as pleasure in the company of the lover becomes a compulsion. When the compulsion phase sets in, we feel compelled to stay with our lover no matter what. That is when we know “bonding” has taken place.
So the stages of love basically involve attraction, followed by great pleasure, followed by bonding. I would add a fourth stage, caretaking. Normal people feel an urge to take care of others toward whom they feel bonded.
Sociopaths and love
Ability to love, then, involves attraction, pleasure, bonding and caretaking. How is the sociopath’s experience of love different from what I have described? First, I never met a sociopath who did not do exactly what he/she wanted. I have to conclude from this that the attraction phase operates relatively normally in the sociopath. In fact, many sociopaths hang around only as long as the attraction phase lasts. There is evidence that emotional arousal is abnormal in sociopaths. So I would also assume they experience the pleasures of attraction without the “butterflies.”
It is blatantly obvious that sociopaths do not bond in the usual sense. Their love drive is thus stuck in the attraction gear and they can go no further than attraction. But don’t stop there! As the sociopath experienced the pleasures of his/her latest object of attraction, his/her drive for conquest was also activated.
The sociopath simultaneously experiences pleasure in attraction and pleasure in conquest or power. In other words, although the sociopath cannot form a love bond, he/she can acquire a possession which he/she strongly believes belongs to him/her.
If I enjoy something and I work very hard to get that thing, it is mine! I feel entitled to something I enjoy and work for. That thing also should keep giving me pleasure and satisfaction in order to stay wanted. If a possession is no longer pleasant and appealing to me, I throw it in the garbage. Now, if someone breaks in and tries to steal my possessions, I am angry and feel violated. Does any of this sound familiar?
Unlike the caretaking of the true love bond, the caretaking behavior of sociopaths is only self serving. I take care of my stuff because I have to. If I want people to envy me, I make the outside of my house look good and wax my car. Then people driving by see the great looking house with the new car in the driveway and think I really have it made. My stuff gives me status. If I don’t take care of my stuff, my status goes down.
So again we see that although sociopaths have a rudimentary love drive, in the end their drives are all about power and status. Don’t be fooled by the occasional care taking behavior, it is not motivated by empathy or a true love bond.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
bluejay says:
Hopeforjoy,
We have been through the mill, being involved with emotionally stunted people. It is bothersome that they will never be able to acknowledge or realize all the ways that they have mistreated us, being unable to do so. These people always have excuses (justifying their behavior) toward us, sometimes their explanations being insane sounding (eg. the reason why the h-spath mistreats me is because “it’s the way you talk to me” (translation – I mustn’t sound angry or be disrespectful toward him, not liking this one bit). The Golden Rule does not apply to them, being above that law. Therefore, the h-spath can do what he pleases.
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bluejay says:
AmAir,
The twists and turns of being involved with a disordered person – takes your breath away. Your ex sounds like she’s all over the map, not knowing whether she’s coming or going. The DRAMA is undending. I KNOW that it is hard to recover from these relationships (being one-sided relationships actually, you being the only one in it). Get on the path to healing and keep this person out of your sphere of existence. I wish you peace in your journey toward health (mental well-being).
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AmAir says:
Thank you so much for taking the time to read all of that- I am a professional writer and an artist…. lol… but without editing first, which I clearly didn’t here, I can get quite tangential (esp. when it comes to emoting).
Since all of this- the chaos of such a monumental move across country… having almost no friends here or gainful employment…. being sick with what seemed to be verging on pneumonia for almost 2.5 months (very uncharacteristic for me)…. losing so much weight (I look good, but I am only lately able to eat every day- when before I was very food/nutrition conscious lol)…. also I am in the south where is it so small, conservative, and the lesbian community doesn’t really exist- in L.A. I was part of the “power lesbian” crowd- active politically…. well known in those circles… and now I can barely get dressed…. I feel hatred for what she has done to me, but then I long to understand what the hell happened….. I can’t imagine finding someone that made me feel that much again… that breaks my heart over and over… and then I wonder what is so missing inside of me that I am deconstructing over this young woman who screwed with my head!? Inside… I so desperately want to find justification for her disconnected behavior… her ability to seemingly lack empathy entirely…. when before she wouldn’t even let me carry groceries inside… was so affectionate…. a great and thorough listener- always able to anchor me and help me remain “logical” (essentially far less emotional- which I am)- she gave unfathomably good/thoughtful advice….. she was terrible about talking about her own feelings, however, when they weren’t anger, boredom, frustration, annoyance, disdain for others being so boring…. OR if she had pissed me off or had gone too far (which she never was over the top or violent the few times things got explosive- I’d always say to her “If you were any more controlled- you’d be a statue.”)- she was quick and effective at being sweet and apologetic too… SO effortlessly endearing. We never stayed in a fight without great resolution more than 2 hours… unless we were apart- almost like out of sight… out of mind for her.
Reading your responses just makes me cry…. I’m in my 30s… I’ve dated all kinds of people, but this one got me to the core, and I was entirely ready to marry her despite the red flags and many obstacles (immigration, money, her cold family- which I only met her little sister- her mother refused to acknowledge me- looked right though me when I introduced myself, and pretended I wasn’t there). To me, until she went back to Canada, the pro’s far outweighed the cons.
I am a very intense person… most people adore me, are intimidated, or hate me…. and she handled me with such ease and serene grace until she abruptly fell apart and seemingly disassociated…. was so DAMN intelligent/BRILLIANT, sensual, funny and gorgeous….. that I felt she was my soul mate and life partner…. my match… I never felt that before. Even my very religious- Christian sister… LOVED my ex… fought for her- encouraged me to go the distance. This was the first GF my sister fully acknowledged, and she WANTED me to marry her too. People were dumbstruck when we walked down the street hand in hand… 2 men even got down on their knee and prostrated themselves- and did the sign of the cross- as if we were Catholic Saints before them!
Everything seemed so magical… and so many doors of sheer fate had to fly open just to stay together for the 13 months we did…. until she went back to her family… and BAM virtually no real explanation- I was just discarded and replaced with her ex (who is a cop). Even though she deleted me off of her facebook directly after posting about social psychopaths……. she still keeps every single picture of us happy together posted on her page- and posts ZERO evidence of the cop…. the cop is even there- commented on her page a couple times in the last 3 months… knows she spent time with me for 2 weeks I was up there… has hundreds of pics posted of us together (I am prof photographer, so…) I am deleted, but the pics remain- 4 months after she left.
Anyway- I am spewing again- as you can see- I am BAFFLED. Before I cut off from contacting her completely (now day 17)… I told her that if she changed her mind about getting therapy, or that she felt she may have Rape Trauma Syndrome (which does have a lot of similarities to psychopathy- except she DEF. is not borderline, A.D.D., and I am reasonably convinced she is not bi-polar)… that I would come up there ONLY if she wanted to pursue therapy. Otherwise I have no choice but to walk away…. because I was sick of her lying, and then lying about lying, because I caught on every time.
Her one liner response was: “I resent that you say I am lying, because I am not (she was). And no offense, but you really have no right to go on as you do. (all my letters she never responded to)”
How does she keep the support of her little sister and her best friend? They always have her back- or so it seems. They help her net and keep the women she goes after…. don’t get it.
Thank you for listening… I think I am going to actually shower now that it is 4pm. I feel pathetic. lol
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Ox Drover says:
Dear AmAir, I agree with BJ, you sound wiped out and tired and depressed, and STRESSED (stress will make you physically sick BTW–it wipes your immune system’s response to germs and viruses)
Your X does sound like very much meeting the criteria for psychopath.
1) First I suggest that you Treat yourself well
A)–eat right (make yourself eat tiny meals if you must)
B) REST
C) get a medical check up
2) Get a mental health evaluation for possible medication for depression and/or PTSD
3) Learn about psychopaths, there are 700+ articles here in the archives, under the names of the author or the subject, read them all (just the articles) leave the comments for later for now. Knowledge=power
4) KEEP ON NO CONTACT—that means none, nada, zip, zilch. No following her on FB or Twitter and no talking to her friends about her, or your friends about her unless your friends GET IT that she is a psychopath, if they don’t then talk and blog to US WE GET IT!
5) Forgive yourself—you are not to “blame” for what she did, or what she is. SHE IS. Accept the fact that you cannot, could not CHANGE HER, and she does NOT want to change herself. You are and were simply an OBJECT for her to manipulate.
6) Accept that there are people who are simply 100% selfish and wihtout conscience in this world.
God bless you and hang on to this knowledge—it will be better, it will take TIME, but it will be better and the pain will decrease as understanding and acceptance increase.
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Findingmyself says:
I know this is an older post but I had to comment on this one after reading it. I have been lurking here for well over a month now. Reading, reading and reading some more. I can (sadly) relate to what most of you share after being involved with these people.
I quick back ground. I’m in my mid-40′s, divorced with children. I met my ex-S (mid 50′s) online (never do that again!), we lived a couple states away. We talked for 3 months before meeting. I felt like I already really knew him before we actually met. We had great chemistry upon meeting. He was charming, great sense of humor, affectionate, attentive, etc. I did ask him after finally meeting if was still going to continue on the dating site. He informed me he could only focus on one person at a time; so I thought we were on the same page. Long story short. I found out a few weeks later he had met with and spent the week-end with another woman from the dating site. At that point I told him to have a nice life.
About a month later he contacted me. He told me how sorry he was for what he had done. That it wasn’t “planned”; it just happened. He continued to tell me how much he missed communicating with me and wanted another chance. I told him that his misleading me that I was the only person he could focus on while he was still pursuing others was unexceptable. He promised me that he wanted to see only me and that he was scared about his feelings and that he realized that it was because he loved me. He said he never knew what “it” was, that everyone always told him he would know “it” when it happened. And now he knows what “it” is to love someone.
I went back to him eventually, after he kept working on gaining my trust. Things were good for a while UNTIL I sensed a huge shift. I knew something was wrong. I questioned him if his feelings had changed and he told me they had not. So I let it go. Things would go up and then down every couple of months. Yet I could always sense something was not quite right. When I would back off, he would start once again wooing me back in.
The long and the short of it is this. After 4 years with him, yes all long distance, he kept promising a future that he was “working towards” so we could be together; I found out about his lies, and lies to cover lies, and other women. I felt sick! He conned me over and over and over again. I did break up with him quite a few times over the years for him only to put on the charm and pull me back in every time. But the end when all my gut feelings of things being off were confirmed, I wanted to die! I can’t believe he played me the way he did. I am on my way to recovery, its going on 5 months since I ended the madness and went NC. It was hard..I failed a few times. Especially when he told me he didn’t want to be “that kind of person” and he wants a “healthy relationship” and had started seeing a therapist. For a short time I started to waiver and think “just maybe” he will improve. I think the only thing the therapy is doing is showing him how to be better at what he does. He even tried to pretend to cry when I told him that I couldn’t put any more time into “hoping” he would turn around.
Anyway, my point to responding to this post was I always sensed that his “love” for me was based on physical only. He would always stare at me (with those lifeless eyes) and tell me “I like what I see” or “you are so beautiful to me” or “just thinking what a lucky guy I am”, vs just saying “I love you”.
At the end of our relationship, I went back and read all the emails over the years-yes I kept them in a folder. I saw a pattern that blew my mind. When he would go cold and I decided to end things, he would say the same thing to me every single time “I can’t imagine you not in my life”, not how much he loved me or wanted a future with me but that one line every single time! And he also said a quite a few times “I was catching up to you, I know now that I love you”. I couldn’t believe how many times over the 4 years he used that line on me and I didn’t even realize it.
I know I was lied to, cheated on, played, hoovered, gas-lighted more times than I care to admit. He is void of empathy, emotion or any real sense of what the word love means. There was a post on here that I read that summed it up perfectly, he was lie from hello to good-bye…aint that the truth!
So glad to be here, you all have helped me so much through your postings and discussions on these articles–thank you!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Findingmyself,
I’m so glad that you ARE finding yourself…and yes, we have all been wooed back into the webs….over and over again mostly. That is what a psychopath does.
Educating yourself, finding the articles that reach you, that is the best method of healing yourself. Putting those ideas to work inside yourself. It starts out learning about them, and ends up learning about ourselves. It isn’t a short journey, but a life long one to live a healthy life style.
Sort of like “dieting” is getting away from one for a while and losing weight, but the getting back into a poor pattern of eating again with the next one—we have to make a LIFE STYLE CHANGE in OURSELVES to live a healthy life. There is not a magic “diet” to lose weight or get healthy, and there isn’t a “magic” way to recover from a psychopath either, it is LIFE STYLE CHANGE. I can relate to that because I am on a “life style change” where eating is concerned.
Keep on keeping on!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
and now for what i affectionately call the ‘EB’ – wjrlwjrlojvldvjlsdkvjnghfoerhgkdnvkjfwfncm.nz?Lpoweitrjnhbn xzqwertghbvcxxcvbnm,./’;lkjhgfdwertyuiop-09876543weyui;/.,mnbx bvcxdfjkl;/vcxrtyuiol;,gfdwjrlwjrlojvldvjlsdkvjnghfoerhgkdnvkjfwfncm.nz?Lpoweitrjnhbn xzqwertghbvcxxcvbnm,./’;lkjhgfdwertyuiop-09876543weyui;/.,mnbx bvcxdfjkl;/vcxrtyuiol;,gfdwjrlwjrlojvldvjlsdkvjnghfoerhgkdnvkjfwfncm.nz?Lpoweitrjnhbn xzqwertghbvcxxcvbnm,./’;lkjhgfdwertyuiop-09876543weyui;/.,mnbx bvcxdfjkl;/vcxrtyuiol;,gfdwjrlwjrlojvldvjlsdkvjnghfoerhgkdnvkjfwfncm.nz?Lpoweitrjnhbn xzqwertghbvcxxcvbnm,./’;lkjhgfdwertyuiop-09876543weyui;/.,mnbx bvcxdfjkl;/vcxrtyuiol;,gfd
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newstepmom says:
I have a sort of different perspective here. I was not conned by a sociopath (well, maybe in my past, but not in this instance), but my new husband … was, a little, to start (and re-start after breaking up with the manipulations, fake fainting, and fake suicide efforts). But, even though he now KNOWS (has proof of) all of the manipulation, lying, and generally ugly way she is raising his kids while she has custody, he still essentially takes her side.
I have been trying to get him to see that pretty much everything she does is an effort to, in drips and tiny threaded drabs, manipulate everyone around her to see her as this “super mom” (high ranking exec).
I see through her every request. Each of which is an effort, from what I can see, to get folks to run circles around her, which they all do — including my new husband!
This has me… really… well, I don’t know what to do. The husband says that their interactions are between them, and “none of my business,” while I’m here, trying to help him raise his [and unfortunately her] kids.
Her affects are yes, tiny, but that’s what I think makes her so insidiously effective. You don’t notice it, until or if you are hyper aware of it and her efforts to get everyone to love her or respect her.
One example. True, it’s TINY. She writes my husband that she’s taken the kids to the doc’s office. “Call me if you want to hear what he said.” Okay… I see that as her efforts again. He could have easily, and if she were “normal” fine, calling is great. But I see this as her efforts to have him, still, spinning around her, as he does. He says yes to her every request. I try to point out that a more normal thing to do (and this is on a day when he + I have plans, so he needs to do things to be able to call her, which he does, and of course she knew that he and I had plans) would have been to write “Hey I took the kids to the docs, everything’s fine.” But no, in my mind, she enjoys forcing any / everyone she can to jump through hoops for her.
On many occasions, if me and either kid has plans, she will lie and say she wants to take one to a spa, that “the only time they have an appointment is this day, can you believe it”. So… it’s really insidious. To me. The husband takes her side, calling me a “conspiracy theorist,” that this is in play.
Anyone else out there a step mom or dad, where your spouse, is still somehow under their spell, in these tiny but annoying ways, even though the spouse has full knowledge of how much they have been lied to and stolen from… ?
I don’t understand, but am hoping to learn more about this condition, how these folks get under their victim’s skin like this. I’ve read from Dr Hare about how after all information has been imparted, everyone pretty much stays the same about their opinions about these people. That those who saw the truth (me) feel like, “See, I could tell that was going on.” The ones who didn’t see it, but weren’t the victim per se, feel like, “Oh really, what’s that all about?” (Nonplussed). And the victims themselves, still see good in the person they know is so bad.
That’s a big paraphrase from Snakes in Suits on this subject. But, I didn’t know I was marrying into this. While I saw her as bad, I didn’t know how bad until I heard and saw more and more, and started investigating.
Anyway, as I said, I’d love to read more / hear more from folks who somehow might have successfully navigated this raising step kids, and dealing with a new spouse, when this something-path is hovering around, knowing everyone I [am still trying to get to] know, etc.
I’m really… having a hard time with this. I hope to hear / learn more! Thank you so much for creating and contributing to this site, I really appreciate it.
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skylar says:
newstepmom,
You probably don’t want to hear this and you won’t believe it, but I think your husband is triangulating you with her. In other words, he knows exactly how this is affecting you and he likes it.
I thought my mom and dad were saintly people. But now I see that they try to triangulate their kids around them. They know that my brother and sister are spaths and that they would as soon kill me as look at me, but they refuse to protect me because the like it. They know it’s an outrage, but they percieve that as control.
Newstepmom, often times we love people who are only pretening to love us back. What they really want is drama and control. Your job is to protect yourself and nobody else. Once you have that perspective, they won’t be able to touch you.
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newstepmom says:
skylar, thank you so much for your response. I really appreciate your perspective.
Your situation with parents, and siblings, sounds so much harder than what I am facing, but not knowing how much I was getting into until now, I am pretty aghast that this is the case.
My husband, just now on the phone, actually acknowledged that those tiny call-requests were threads of her continued manipulations of him, which is good/interesting. He also said he’d say yes to me for some weeks, without doubt, so I could let him know what I see at each turn of hers. I’m hopeful, [potentially foolishly?] that he will begin to understand a smidge more that I’m wholly on his and his kids’ side, which I believe already he inherently believes. But that after some weeks he will more immediately see her manipulations for what they are and, like for kids trying hard to get attention (as I see her, except often really cruelly), if resolutely ignored, they will taper off.
She is re-married (to her ex boss, with whom she was having an affair for 1+ years while lying daily to my husband and her kids), so she at least has very many other opportunities. I just hope she doesn’t kind of explode somehow if my husband ignores her more and more. She’s an exec, she sees her husband only on weekends (works out of town) and has the kids half the week (and unfortunately his on some days), so she has plenty of other opportunities, which I hope sate her once / if my husband can come through on this request of mine.
At least he says he sees the point of it. So, at this very early juncture, at least I’m looking forward to seeing what happens….
Thank you for your tips, skylar, I know that your recommendation is truly the answer. It’s hard for me to see how alone I may need to be in this situation, but I’m so glad there is a place to turn even if just here with the folks here. Again, I’m so happy I found this site.
Thanks again, very much.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Newstepmom,
I hate to think that Skylar is right, but whether or not he is doing it DELIBERATELY or whether it is just his STYLE of functioning in his dysfunction, this is not a healthy relationship between you and him is my opinion.
I can see that you would not KNOW what kind of situation you were marrying into, but I SEE YOUR ASSESSMENT OF HER AS RIGHT ON—-MANIPULATOR, and from your description he is playing along with her, and doesn’t understand where you are coming from.
The TRIANGLE play of RESCUER, PERSECUTOR and VICTIM with the three of you playing the different parts, you “persecute” her by saying she is manipulating him/the kids/you so HE must “RESCUE” her who is the “victim” Of YOU the “meanine” person that you are, and around and around it goes, where it stops is in divorce court unless you can side track it before then.
I STRONGLY suggest that the two of you go to counseling and if he is not willing to go, then you go yourself and learn how to either cope with living with this or to decide that if he isn’t going to function better then you need to walk away before it gets worse. I wish I could tell you that he will “see” what YOU SEE, but trying to convince someone else who is being manipulated is almost impossible until THEY DECIDE to see for themselves. In the meantime, stick around here there is lots of great reading and information here for you as well. You are just in the LINE OF FIRE from her and until he cooperates with you, you will just keep taking bullets. Sorry.
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skylar says:
Newstepmom, it isn’t as black and white as you may think. That’s why it took me 45 years to “see” my parents.
When I first moved back with them, they hugged me, swore to protect me, brought me breakfast in bed. Fresh papaya every morning, sliced lovingly by mommy dearest. Dinner was brought to my room. Money was offered daily.
Growing up, my “overprotective” parents, worried constantly about our safety. They sacrificed themselves into poverty so we could go to private schools. My father worked six days a week for 17 years. My mother prays the rosary on her knees every night since I’ve been alive. Does that sound like a family of N’s and P’s? it is.
They are filled with envy. It’s just impossible to see it through the facade. They are like magicians that distract you with one hand so they can trick you with the other hand.
My spath was very similar for many many years. Always being loving, attentive and my hero. It makes the evil impossible to see. And they know it. You go into cog dis because that kind of bad cannot coexist with the good they portray. There is only one possible answer: the good stuff is fake, because good people don’t fake evil.
I’m not saying your husband is evil. I can’t possibly know. What I AM saying is that you MUST keep your eyes open and SEE what you are looking at. KNOW that people can fake very very very well. And KNOW that your emotions are what they will use against you. It will be difficult to impossible to see a person that you love, as disordered, especially while you live with them.
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newstepmom says:
Hi skylar, Ox Drover.,
Again, thank you so much for your support and helpful advice and food for thought.
The husband and I are actually already in counseling. And he acknowledges that it is largely due to conflict about his ex.
Today he noted he would deign to say yes to my every request regarding his interaction with her. And, has noted he sees the threads of manipulation that she drops … everywhere (I pointed out several as I illustrated this in our conversation).
That said, I do not know how good this counselor is who we are seeing regarding knowing how to navigate this kind of person and their input into our and the kids’ lives. He’s great in other ways so far (only week 3), very into John Gottman who I respect very much.
I want to find a few things, like a divorce attorney (for advice on divorce decree solidifying (to document “promises” she made to my husband re college expenses) + potentially a counselor especially for help regarding the kids and us too, but I do not see those recommendations on this site, in spite of the Directory having a page. If anyone knows the link I must be missing, that’d be great. I only see a few across the country, rather than a few in each metro area, oddly.
Thank you so much, again. He does not seem evil, though yes, does seem potentially narcissistic-ish / very ego, too often for comfort. But, overall, very very nice. As such, stayed married to the evil doer (as I sometimes call her), even while he “felt” her cheating on him, and giving her everything he had, and more.
I guess I am wondering why you folks are guessing he might be evil, too, because he doesn’t so easily see in her what I do, in spite of having been completely annihilated by her financially, and by her lying to him… ? Are you saying (?), too far sucked in, and so now breathing her evil… kind of? It’s like vampire-ism, then?(!)
skylar, I also do not know what “cog dis” is, is that cognitive … disabled.. ?
The real question is, why in the world didn’t I see this in him prior to marriage? I saw her, even if I didn’t know the term yet, I saw it, crystal clear, as soon as he told me the story of their marriage. I guess that’s fairly clear though — I didn’t push my theory (not to mention know it fully still), yet. So I couldn’t see his reaction. … yuck. I’m happy we see the counselor tomorrow, my fingers are crossed he has some knowledge and experience with this horrifying thing!
Thanks so much, you skylar, Ox Drover. I really appreciate your perspectives, even if they are very scary!
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skylar says:
Newstepmom,
I’m not seeing you husband as evil, only as someone who triangulates relationships. This is done, I think, for drama. N’s are addicted to drama, so that is one clue that he is an N.
N’s are often the victims of spaths, since they provide lots of drama, which the spaths need too. If the spath finds a better supply, she will leave the N, but spaths never completely let go of a victim, they like to keep them hanging on. After all, she is completely familiar with his buttons and exactly how to manipulate for little doses of drama. She no longer wants him, but it’s important to her to know that she can have him anytime she wants, so she keeps pushing a button here and there. My spath called it “maintenance”, usually referring to sex but it could be anything that created just enough emotion to keep me bonded to him.
There is nothing you can do about what the spath is doing. And really you can’t change your husband’s behavior. Believe me. I know enough N’s to tell you that they can speak disparagingly about N behavior and spath behavior and yet they exhibit it continually themselves. Even education doesn’t seem to work because they feel entitled to behave however they feel like.
Your only hope is to control your own reaction. In other words, give them NO REACTION, use gray rock or give them an unexpected reaction. The key is not to participate in the triangulated relationship – AT ALL. You may think, initially, that you are letting her “win”, but that’s not the case because nobody can win at triangulation, if you don’t play. And she knows that, as does your husband.
Refuse to participate, show no emotion when it comes to the ex-spath.
Edit: Cog/Dis is Cognitive Dissonance. It’s what you experience when what you feel/believe about something is directly opposite to what you know is the actual truth.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear New step mom,
I’d like to ask a couple of questions for clarification.
First, how old are these kids that she “promised” to help put through college?
Second, how long did you date/know him before you married him?
Third, how are the kids behaving in school, at home, with each other
Fourth, how do you get along with the kids? Do they show you respect or defiance or a mixture of both? How do they do at school?
How old is your husband? How old is the x wife, and how old are you? Have either of you been previously married before his marriage with the X?
I’m not just being nosey, because the answers to these questions will give me some hnits about the interactions and past history which might shed some light on the situation.
I am glad that you are in counseling. The “resources” link here is by referrals from people here and then the person referred has to agree to be listed as well.
Since you have only been married for 3 weeks (?) I am assuming that you haven’t been in the counseling very long either, but apparently this problem with her has come up AFTER the marriage? Or did you see it before the marriage?
I do wish I could say that this will be an “easy fix” but nothing in human behavior is easily changed, and we have NO CONTROL over other’s behavior, only our own. What Sky calls “gray rock” is just to be as BORING as a gray rock, no emotion, no reaction. In other words, just STAY COMPLETELY out of the interactions between your husband and his X (and that may be difficult to do since it does effect your life as well. Plan a day out, she cancels the plans by dumping the kids on him, or keeping the kids from going…either way, she controls your schedule. You can’t stop that sort of behavior and even being boring about it, not reacting may take months or years to finally be boring enough she gets no more fun out of it. Sometimes when you bore them they will UP THE ANTE for a while, if you don’t notice a level 1, they go up to level 2 or level 3…..if it used to work, they figure they will just do it harder or more frequently and EVENTUALLY it will work again.
You realizing that there “is a problem” is STEP ONE, and working on how to have a healthy relationship with your husband while still having to deal with a manipulator in the mix is a GREAT START, but I am not going to tell you it will be EASY. It most likely will not.
I suggest that you read articles here about psychopaths, and about dealing with them. Go to Dr. Leedom’s web site (there is a link under blog rolls) called “parenting the AT RISK child” and a child who has a parent with a personality disorder is at risk genetically for having some level of PD themselves (usually seen at or after puberty) The chaotic environment that a child has with a PD parent is also another factor so learning about how to have a healthy relationship with the kids and help them to form attachments,, and develop a moral conscience as well as encourage the development of empathy and compassion is a big job.
Good luck and I hope that your husband will also be on board with you in making your marriage a healthy one and in fostering normal development in his children. God bless.
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newstepmom says:
Hi skylar, and Ox Drover — thank you again. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your advice and what I’m learning from you. Thank you, really.
I feel really good that, while ego-ish, which may feature some narcissism, my husband doesn’t really disparate the ex-wife spath, but he does say that while he sees that she is being manipulative, that it really doesn’t bother him. And this, he says he allows to continue because he paid through the nose to be able to continue having a “civil” relationship with her in spite of her hideousness to him through the years, for the sake of the kids.
That said, and while he mostly does ignore her, and rarely responds to any emails, and they almost never talk, when she does ask him to do anything for her, or trade custody days, he mostly says yes unless he can’t per his schedule. Now, I’d asked him NOT to call her back only because I saw her recent request as simple manipulation. He did acknowledge this later, and has agreed to never do that going forward.
But, I think it’s kind of hard-wired into him, having been essentially ruined by this monster ex. Is that something that happens in this spath world? The victims get irreparably damaged by these creatures?
I think that he and I see that the kids realize that he and I have a pretty good relationship for the most part, we are always laughing, and that I respect him, and that he does a lot for me. That said, he certainly ran rings around the ex wife spath in an effort to make their life together wonderful as well, so they are used to seeing him cow tow to his wives, so I’m trying to get him off to work which is what he loves best, because I don’t see his cow towing to me always is a great example to set for the kids either.
Interestingly, the counselor noted that he may be suffering from a post-traumatic-stress-disorder, and if not, he would frankly be very very surprised if he weren’t suffering in ways he doesn’t fully realize, given the relationship with the ex that he has described to the counselor. That said, this counselor is not an expert in that field to my knowledge, but, he seems pretty darned good, fortunately.
Ox Drover, thank you for your questions. Again, I really appreciate that.
The kids are fortunately pretty good overall. They’re 8 + 11.
I knew him for 1.5 years prior to our marriage, which was 7 months ago.
The kids are pretty good, and behave pretty well at home. I have heard that KID 1 has some behavioral issues at the spath’s house, which I kind of think of as imitation (being a B, the ex/spath contacted my husband asking him how to handle it) and possibly certainly in part because while seeing each other only on weekends, her 3rd marriage [to prior boss] seems quite rocky and they’re fighting almost every week, often quite severely. I’m sure this is disrupting the kids, and am sure they see it as mom’s thing, while I’m happy that for the most part dad and I are always laughing, and recently have taken to dancing daily, so the kids are laughing at us doing that too of course. But we have a lot of fun for the most part.
Both kids behave overall well in our house, less so at mom/spath’s. There is very rarely any issue with behavior at our house. At mom/spath’s house, KID 1 is being bratty and hard to manage, and KID 2 is not doing what either parent there is asking them to do, and being lazy.
They both do pretty well in school. KID 1 has cheated once, and is bossy (the one I see taking after mom, more), but with good grades. KID 1 also I feel like I really need to push to encourage to be able to do things alone, always needing to be near someone, and bossing things around in activities (mom style), and just seems to not be able to foster their own activities to keep themselves occupied. I’m worried about that and hoping I can figure out how to encourage that successfully. KID 2 is overall pretty good, no behavior issues at school, and really good grades. Sees KID 1′s lies and manipulations pretty clearly and speaks with me about them, and does manage alone time very well, with a bunch of solo interests and activities, which is great to see.
I get along pretty well with the kids. They never show me defiance, but they do sometimes kind of ignore me. Now, this is a bigger issues perhaps for me, because I feel like the husband kind of ignores me too, in his [at least up til he promised me he'd no longer respond to her manipulation efforts] often-seen saying yes to ex/spath, and often no to me, even though my efforts and things I recommend are principally only to help us, and his kids. I get along well with his kids. They seem to really enjoy talking with me, and doing things with me when the ex gives us time for that (she’s often requesting them there out of the custody arrangements; shocking I know). I have also told the husband that that has got to stop. He does realize he needs to limit their interactions, the ex and the kids, to allow for as little as possible to leak over to them.
The husband is 44, I’m 45, ex/spath is 42? She has been married 3x, and is currently with that 3rd husband her former boss, and had been married once before she tricked my husband into marrying her [he did not want to, she said she was on the pill]. That was his first marriage.
Okay, again, thanks so much. I hope that the raising of these kids can go well, and they see our relative happiness and laughter as inspirational. I want them to feel safe with us. I’m sure the divorce scared them to death, and I know I’d not leave this situation, even though it’s so much uglier than I really knew when I married this guy! My husband really is [in my mind] a great guy, and while I can see him as a potential victim of these creatures (totally trusting, giving, not questioning enough even when it’s obvious he needs to to be able to guard himself (as with her, continually lying, spending ALL of their money, taking out loans, etc), I feel that I know he is a good man. I just hope he really will be able to give the grey stone consistently to this ex, and continue being the great dad he is to the kids, also.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Newstepmom,
Glad you are seeing a good counselor and working on things to get the marriage to work and the kid situation going well also. It is a big job.
Go to Dr. Leedom’s blog “parenting the at risk chidl” if I didn’/t tell you that already (CRS!) it is listed on the left under blog rolls here. That should help you and your husband too.
I am also very glad that he is working with you in counseling and to incorporate you into the family group, which, unfortunately will continue to include her in one way or another.
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skylar says:
New Stepmom,
Your husband does sound very nice. It is a mystery to me why he would even consider putting his ex’s demands over yours but at least he is looking at the situation.
It’s possible he is just a please and avoider. He will be nice to whomever has the biggest stick and he is afraid of her because of his prior experience. Maybe.
Keep reading and educating yourself. Things will eventually clarify themselves, if you do this. My mistake, for 25 years was not looking for answers, I simply accepted things as they were. This was so wrong and for that I was punished for 25 years.
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newstepmom says:
Hi… yes he may be a pleaser and avoider, though I tend to think this woman really put him through the wringer, and that he now feels, as does her “poor” current husband; he’s killing himself trying to please her. She can’t be pleased, yet somehow garners all of these efforts. It was my perception (however, not-yet-educated-enough at this point) that these -paths really do a number on their victims. And/or, that certain personality types are such that they almost don’t care / don’t change their perceptions, ever. I’d read in Snakes in Suits that once the truth comes out about these -paths, their victims don’t even feel malice toward them, and as such, I guess I wonder (and see in my husband) some inability to even change the behavior that’s been so ingrained in him, by this monster. The kids just parrot her… I’m pretty much freaking out about it. Trying to stay as even as possible, esp in front of the kids, though given I know this I see her “reality” in a second, and so trying to translate that to simple goodness re as advice to the kids goes, is sometimes hard. (Without slipping at least to saying her behaviors can be “rude,” if they’re asking me why I’m doing something instead of what “Mom said” I/we should be doing.) Of course each “rude” thing that drops out is her attempts at continued manipulation.
Thanks for the blog notice, I will definitely look up Dr. Leedom’s blog.
I think that everyone here deserves a round of applause…. this topic seems to be SO taboo, and difficult to even be able to mention. For the site to have been set up, and for folks to have been able to see things clearly, is remarkable. I’m not quite sure why I was able to see this so quickly in her, and to investigate it to find out what it is… but I feel good that I was able to.
Best of luck to everyone!
*If anyone sees this and can let me know how I can set my settings her to notify me when someone responds to any post I make, I’d love that. I just need to keep the window open and refresh. Thanks!
Thanks!!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Newstepmom,
It is difficult to co-parent with these people as they use the children as pawns in the “game.” (to manipulate the other parent) Your husband may have learned some dysfunctional tactics to try to “go along to get along” with her and be TIRED to death of fighting over every darned thing with her. I can relate.
As far as people who are victims NOT having any resentment or malice or anger—most of us have PLENTY OF ANGER, RAGE, MALICE AND EVEN HATE for these people and the damage they have done to us and those we love.
Staying as even as possible around the kids is a good tactic and will take everything that you can muster. The counselor should be able to help you as well with this.
When she does things that are “rude” I would suggest instead of saying “your mom is acting rude” I would say “Your dad and I have decided to do things differently at our house” or “what you do at your mom’s house is up to you and her, but your dad and I make the rules at OUR house.” Kids CAN learn that there are different rules at different houses and learn to respect your rules at your house.
“I realize that your mom doesn’t ask you to put your dishes in the sink after you finish eating, but at OUR HOUSE your dad and I expect you to put your dirty dishes in the sink.” (or pick up your clothes out of the floor, or whatever the rules are) “At our house we do not tell each other to “get farked” so I would appreciate it if you would go sit in your room on your bed until you can apologize to your sister for saying that to her and speak more respectfully in the future”…..etc etc.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
okay you guys are going to love this. I hale a cab and the driver is a corrections officer working at a max. security prison. so, i immediately start talking to him about psychopathy and being mind****** by a spath. we joke a bit, and he tells me that i seem, ‘really well adjusted’. SNORT!
this coming from a corrections officer! (although he seemed really well adjusted for a corrections officer..) Anyways made me giggle; not too often I get to giggle about psychopathy in the ‘real’ world.
giggle.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy, if he thinks you are “well adjusted” NOW, he should have seen you a while back when you first came to LF! LOL Snort, giggle! Yea, I’m well adjusted NOW too….but not when I first came to LF, I was a paranoid nut job….and the reason I was paranoid was my whole freaking family was either out to kill me, or stand by while someone else did! Yep, that was me, NUT JOB!!!! LOL ROTFLMAO
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Ox Drover says:
ps having come into contact with quite a few “corrections officers” during my time dealing with the prisons and my P son, I am not sure who is the worst psychopaths….I think they must have to hire narcissists and/or psychopaths because no one except another psychopath could “deal with” the large number of psychopaths that are locked up…I think if a normal person went to work in a prison, they would go nuts just like the rest of us from “exposure” to the path-ology. Just close exposure to psychopaths on a daily basis I think rubs off on “normal” people, you run out of your ability to cope with them when you have NO PEACE. At least I did/do…that is why it is so important to me to remain psychopath-FREE and NC, because every time I associate with one even the least bit, I LOSE IT…ABNORMAL BECOMES NORMAL…sometimes just reading a news story that is particularly bad will “get to me” and make me grind my teeth. So maybe I’m not so “well adjusted” after all. LOL ROTFLMAO
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justus5 says:
Oxy-you said admormal becomes normal (when you are around them). It’s funny how quickly I began to except my P’s bs when he rolls in once every two weeks. I try to keep my guard up and see most of it for what it is but when he leaves I shake my head at EVERTHING. Someone said someowhere not insane just a sociopath. Thinking mine IS insane.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Justus5,
My opinion, for what it is worth is that if we continue to associate with them once we know what they are, WE are the ones that are INSANE. We just keep doing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESULTS. That is the definition of “insanity.”
As long as you associate with them, their contagion will rub off on YOU. It is impossible to have a normal life with a psychopath intimately involved in your life. JMHO.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
oxy – one of the first ‘people outside of lovefraud and my immediate circle i told about the spath was an employment counselor. i was booked in to do a mock interview for the job i have now. i wanted to know if i came across ‘normal enough’ – because i sure as hell didn’t feel normal or think that i came across as normal.
he was a (youngish) retired corrections guy – he had taught in the prisons. we immediately got into talking about spathy as soon as I knew where he used to work. it was such a relief to tell someone out in the world and to gain his assurance that i came across as ‘normal enough’, even though i was so mind******.
he was deeply affected by working in corrections. it almost ruined his life – he became quite paranoid about everyone – didn’t want anyone (including his own family, whom he trusted) around his kids….he has PTSD as his parting gift from corrections. he’s a really really nice guy, who has seen way too much evil in this life.
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justus5 says:
Oxy-Your opinion is appreciated. I finally managed to quit being insanely drawn into his dance of anger and fighting, his twisting of reality. I can see him for what he is now I am stuck in fear of being on my own and fear of the nastiness I would have to deal with after a divorce.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy,
I know what you mean, kiddo, I sure as HELL DIDN’T COME ACROSS NORMAL…even my therapist thought I was a paranoid nut jobber! LOL And so did the attorney I hired to represent me at Patrick’s parole hearing…untiil he got the package of documents I sent him! LOL
Anyone who is “normal” and goes into corrections work will not stay normal long. I firmly believe that working around or with these people does a NUMBER on your mind and sanity. It is like working in a pit of vipers, you get to where you cannot walk around a GARDEN HOSE without jumping. PTSD? I do NOT doubt that one bit.
AFter my son was caught with a cell phone in his cell (smuggled in of course and actually a felony) he got kicked out of craft shop, and I had to drive 16 hours one way to pick up his gear (several thousands of dollars worth of equipment and supplies) a bunch of expensive leather had been “missing” from his stuff and the warden and the major got together and called me into the warden’s office….and the warden was talking to me like I was a convict, I said very nicely “Please don’t talk to me in that tone of voice, I am a citizen, not a convict.” I thought the warden was going to come across his desk at me, he SCREAMED at me to “get out of my office now!” The major was playing the “good cop” and when I made arrangements for a time to pick up the stuff, he had 4 trollies of stuff with inmates pushing them and he told me I’d have to load it myself….some of it was HEAVY…and so I didn’t bite, I just got up in the back of the truck with the first box and started to put it in the bed of the truck. I think he thought I’d beg him to get the inmates to load it, but I didn’t, so he smiled and said “get down, I’ll get them to load it.”
Patrick actually had a sexual relationship with a married female major at one place he was housed, she came into the visiting room when we were there once and you could see the “sparks” flying between their eyes. OPENLY FLIRTING. A secretary there a few years ago had a sexual relationship with an inmate AND an officer, and she and the inmate were both found dead in a closet…supposedly the inmate killed her and then cut his own throat, but Patrick thought the officer killed them both. I don’t doubt it.
I used to be so worried about him, cause he is a small white guy in a tough prison system that is primarily black and Hispanic and the racial divide is rigid…gangs, etc. and he’s been beaten up a bunch of times and severely injured, but I no longer worry, he got himself into that place and he can have the consequences as far as I am concerned. He is still better off than the girl he murdered. I’m not sure who is the worst danger in prisons, the guards or the other inmates…but it is a PhD program for psychopaths any way you slice it. In a lot of ways, it gives them the perfect environment, constant risk and games to play with each other. My son is “good at it” and knows all the ins and outs of smuggling stuff in and conning the system. BFD (big farking deal)—he’s the smartest inmate in the place, but he’s nothing but a not so successful small time thug and murderer. He had enough brains to have invented the cure for cancer, or to have been Bill Gates, and he CHOSE to be a thug. His loss and mine too, only he doesn’t have sense enough to realize it. Just like that sociopath that wrote the letter to Donna.
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Ox Drover says:
Well, justus5, I guess “better the devil you know than the one you don’t know” but if you choose to live “with it” instead of to make a life for yourself independently, then that is your choice. I chose that course with a lot of relation-shits, but I realized finally that FOR ME I would rather live in a tent and eat out of a McDonald’s dumpster than to live any where near a psychopath.
I found out that I don’t need anyone (especially a psychopath) in my life that doesn’t cherish me as I deserve to be cherished. Life is much nicer now.
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justus5 says:
Oxy-I have come to the point of excepting responsility for my sitiuation. I think everyday about how to get out of the mess that I have allowed him to create. Still afraid and confused though about the future.
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Ox Drover says:
Justus5, we ALL are/were confused about the future. Without a crystal ball and without being psychic there’s no way to see the future either way and “there are no guarantees in life” that is for sure. I definitely understand your fear of the future—probably financially (I’m just guessing here) and in many other ways as well, I think you have kids to raise—how will they react? How will this all impact them? That’s also part of the collateral damage they do to our lives and the lives of the ones we love.
Keep on reading and learning about psychopaths and about how to heal to help you make decisions. Making THE decision to get away from an abusive mate IS A BIG ONE I understand. But just like no one ever died and thought “I wish I’d spent more time at the office” no one ever approached their death bed and said “I’m glad I stayed with that psychopath.”
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carriesguns says:
beware the one who cares tooo much for your children. my twenty years ago spath/pedophile took my kids away from me while i worked all the time. (he was wonderful with the kids, i thought i was soo lucky) til i found out he was molesting my daughter…prior to that i had noticed he was always the rewards guy- always the one giving them the toys, the happy trips, leaving the hard stuff for me. at one point i realized my kids only minded me when he told them to. that was a massively horrible eye-opening experience; i started rebuilding things and ousting him and then came the wonderful revelation.
however. things had already proceeded so far that – and bear with me here- he had planted a belief in my daughter’s young being, that she should be the leading lady of the house…including making decisions, bossing people, all that….lol.
and the thing is that she became subltly very competitive with me, her mother.
Divide and conquer- to an unimaginable level…same-sex competitiveness, jealousy, the whole realm there. not something in my persona, nor my familial patterns ever. but very definitely in his… i set about “fly-fishing” to retrieve my daughter & her love & trust…and to keep her from leaving home at fifteen, when he went to jail. (this was all from the late 80′s to early 90′s & there was little /no mainstream awareness of dealing with sociopathic types then, and he could “handle” brilliant beautiful attorneys with one hand tied behind his back)
it is only now that i see the long-term ramifications of this. when my daughter’s daughter was 2, her father jokingly told her to go call mommy a “b”. jokingly…poor taste, but still a joke. and my daughter massively overreacted. and from that little “trigger” came an onslaught of little dynamics that sublty eroded the granddaughter’s/daughter’s relationship, all without my daughter’s awareness of all this too. it became a normal-but-troubled relationship, not obviously, but you could just feel it. i hung around, as a sort of buffer, not even realizing i also was triggering “schtuff” for my daughter, who also didn’t realize.
until other massively traumatic events happened, at which point she succumbed to internal stresses to the point that my 29-yr old type a personality little hard working, climbing the corporate ladder healthy daughter suddenly collapsed, turned into a physically 90 year old and couldn’t even walk up stairs.
and was in intense chronic pain. diagnosed with fibromyalgia.
at the pain clinic where they did a very thorough intake, the doctor stated that ever single chronic pain/fibromyalgia patient he had — had a history of molestation as a child. 100%.
and counselors? omg. they are just clueless, at least in the midwestern part of the country or the ones we have found.
after a divorce, a succession of little life shipwrecks, and the realization she had married a “soul-sucker” herself (N) ..my daughter is dealing with her issues in a very determined way, just falls down again at certain crucial points. i have been close to keep an eye on the developing relationship with her daughter, and only lately realized the extent of internal stress just my presence causes (we do love each other a tremendous amount)
now she is again engaged, and is moving far away from me, and the move is causing huge meltdowns for both of us.
lol.
thanks for listening! 100,000th meltdown here! love you guys for being here, it has been a long and lonely path for me! i surf on here, and try to say little, the explosion of awareness of these people is almost keeping up with the damage they do (not!) but it is so great to not think i really am queen of paranoia & all by myself anymore!!
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Ox Drover says:
Carriesguns,
I am so sorry for both your daughter and you, and even her daughter. The pain continues to flow down the generations….you (and she) are not alone however, in this…there are many of us walking as best we can the pathway toward healing, stumbling sometimes, or falling down, but getting up to keep on going, moving, traveling toward that bright light in the distance. God bless.
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