242 Comments to “A deeper understanding of love, ourselves and the sociopath”

1. 421dmb2 says:

   Dr. Leedom, this all makes sense to me. I was married almost ten years and looking back I don’t think my ex loved me in the true sense. Any time he would do something “thoughtful” for me…he would seriously call his mother and let her know, every single time! He also could not handle it as I had more children. He could not handle not being first for attention. If he came home and his dinner was not ready, or his favorite, huge brown towel not ready for his shower, he would absolutely flip…throwing things around, yelling and berating me. It wouldn’t matter that I had sick children or just an infant to care for. His public appearance is still his number one priority…he has ignored his children for long period of time, but then show up at one of their practices looking like father of the year. Sometimes, it is comical the extremes that exist between his private and public persona.
   Your explanation makes me understand why he was so angry when I left. I was his posession. I completed what he thought he should be in public. When I walked out, I made him look bad (in his eyes)…and he could not have that…so the anger, but that was over eight years ago. I hate to say this, but it seems my only hope of him ending his hatred of me is “latch” onto someone else who can make him look good and who will cater to his every whim, but unfortunately for me, my ex has never even dated (as far as I know). He seems stuck in his anger. I wonder if there is any other way to have him focus on something else…to ease the anger he feels toward me?

   Friday, 20 April 2007 @ 12:37pm

2. tough cookie says:

   This post was really interesting and helped explain alot. I guess the most terrifying aspect of sociopaths is that even though we know what they are about, ‘themselves’, they do things that may sometimes counteract this notion. In the last paragraph of the original post you write, “Don’t be fooled by the occasional care taking behavior, it is not motivated by empathy or a true love bond.”

   What triggers sociopaths to do this caretaking act and not base it around themselves? I am sure that in the long run there is a self drive goal…but what causes them to alter their normal me, me, me personalities and transform even if for a second on to someone else? Is it to deceive us even more?

   Its interesting because my ex sociopathic boyfriend used to tell me all the time that there was nothing like the love from a child (which he had) or a dog because their love is non judgmental, innocent and unconditional…I started thinking and could relate to that but in a way felt like his manner of thinking was completely corrupted because a child and a dog don’t know any better. They can’t express hurt from the sopciopaths distructive nature and are not verbally able to expxress their emotions. They go into the world not knowing that such a horribel type of person exists. Any thoughts on this….

   Sunday, 22 April 2007 @ 12:56pm

3. Liane Leedom, M.D. says:

   What a great example of the thought processes of a person with sociopathic traits!

   They are motivated by the need to achieve power and control in relationships. So children and dogs are good, they are easier to control as you point out.

   A person with severe sociopathy only does care taking when it is required to get sex or power. There are many people with sociopathic traits that have a rudimentary ability to love. These people can at times show true kindness. The best example of this is the addict who begins to love after a period of sobriety.

   Monday, 23 April 2007 @ 5:21am

4. catherine says:

   By all appearances, my ex-husband took very good care of me during our marriage. His ‘acts of kindness’ extended beyond me to include my family members, friends and even colleagues. Many people told me how lucky I was to have such a loving husband. Unfortunately, I learned the hard way that his kind acts were not done from the heart. My marriage was built upon a foundation of lies and deception. It was indeed a difficult truth to comprehend and accept.

   Wednesday, 25 April 2007 @ 11:25am

5. janefauq says:

   It is power indeed. When I flat out asked my ex-boyfriend the sociopath why he had targeted me when he had all these other women, he said ” I had to have you” and “You were quite a challenge”

   Sunday, 6 May 2007 @ 5:29pm

6. modelman360 says:

   i love the article on “gaslighting”…………my ex wife would do that to me in our 18 yrs of marriage, she would want me to think she was so naive and a terrible liar, when in reality she was sly as a fox..as sociopaths are……i told her i didn’t want her going to this bar,it’s a meat market i said……………a hour later she would come to me and ask, ” honey when you said meat market……….did you mean meat market?….or meet market?”……….all of our friends and even family members were fooled by her!………our two boys were devasted when we found out about her double life………..nine yrs later they still want nothing to do with her, very sad…………i beleive it does catch up with you eventually……………..i thought when everything first happened it was the worst day of my life………………i look back on it now, and it was actually the best day of my life!………..the head games this woman would play with me, she had me thinking i was going nuts!………it got so bad during the divorce , when i went over to the house to get xmas ornaments with my sons, she attacked me and she was arrested. i had to put a restraining order on her….and i’m the man!………..these people have no emotion and no remorse..they will use you and discard you when they are done with you…….it sounds robotic……..and it really is!…there is something wrong with them, wiring inside the brain or something……….they will suck you in with their charm!

   Wednesday, 9 May 2007 @ 11:45am

7. modelman360 says:

   maybe this is good therapy to write about it…….it’s something you have to deal with yourself, inside your soul…..i found out going to a couple therapists…..that they are more screwed up than you!……..marrying my ex was the best and worst day of my life. good because of my two sons from her, they are the highlight of my life!…….the worst because i was married to a sociopath…….in court it came out in the custody trial that she was giving my sons cigarettes at 13 and beer to my 11 yr old.among other things…………my lawyer asked me, didn’t you know this?………of course not! being married to her for so long you would think the both of us were on the same page!………..who gives cigarettes to a boy at 13???????…in reality she was trying to be their friend instead of their mother!………buying them cell phones and roller blades when i wasn’t around………….i would tell her, kids have their friends at school, being their friend comes when they are 25!.until then they need parents!……..as i said before by her being their friend, it all backfired on her and now she has no one just a ex con boyfriend…………i’ll never understand how some people think their life is like a cats, they have nine lives, and they can make up for the damage they cause later on…………sorry it doesn’t work like that, one life to a customer!………..make the most of it…………..some things that are done can never be repaired!…….also, isn’t it terrible how a judge can sit there in a custody hearing and he will decide who your child lives with?………my judge was judge greer, the judge who did the terry schivo case in florida……………when i was talking about my son, this guy is sitting in his chair falling asleep!!!!!!!!……..i kicked the table to get his FULL ATTENTION!….this is my son we’re talking about!!!!…….you will pay attention!……our tax dollars hard at work!

   Wednesday, 9 May 2007 @ 12:05pm

8. peggywhoever says:

   In reading this post above, Dr. Leedom states that, “the stages of love basically involve attraction, followed by great pleasure, followed by bonding. I would add a fourth stage, caretaking. Normal people feel an urge to take care of others”.

   Furthermore, Dr. Leedom says, “we see that although sociopaths have a rudimentary love drive, in the end their drives are all about power and status. Don’t be fooled by the occasional care taking behavior, it is not motivated by empathy or a true love bond”.

   My sociopath was initially very amorous, kind, generous, and seemingly caretaking. But his passion, kindness and generosity diminished noticably over time, to the point of stinginess…emotionally and financially. And in the end he had no nurturing instincts whatsoever, just callous disregard (and discard).

   Dr. Leedom further states, “The attraction phase usually lasts no more than 18 months. The reason for this is that it is too consuming. People have to be able to function, and when our energies are over focused on a lover, we aren’t as productive in other areas. Furthermore, the attraction phase has only one purpose. That is to get us hooked. When the pleasure chemicals and anxiety relieving chemicals are released in the brain, a compulsion is formed. That compulsion is to be with the lover. So the love that starts out as pleasure in the company of the lover becomes a compulsion. When the compulsion phase sets in, we feel compelled to stay with our lover no matter what. That is when we know “bonding” has taken place.”

   This was also noteably true of my S; I’d say his first rage episode wasn’t for 6 or 12 months, but certainly by the 18 month mark he was having an episode every month or two. Extreme juvenile behaviour, acting out, volatility, anger, and seemingly over nothing significant.

   This brings into the focus the “compulsion” or obsessiveness many of us have felt regarding our Sociopathic lovers. We are still seeking the “pleasure chemicals and anxiety relieving chemicals”. We found happiness, pleasure, the “dream” and we don’t want it taken from us. Hence, we continue to seek the companionship of the S long after the love phase has ended.

   Dr. Leedom further states, “contact with the lover is also pleasurable because it releases oxytocin”. So we continue to want/need the chemical pleasure we experienced while with the S.

   This was a very enlightening post and provided some good answers of “why” we continue to desire the S’s. Thank you Dr. Leedom.

   Sunday, 23 March 2008 @ 3:38pm

9. OxDrover says:

   The neurochemical phases of “love” and “bonding” I think are also reinforced by having sex with an individual as well.

   Those people that we are attracted to that we don’t actually have sex with, seem to not be as strong as those that we do have sex with.

   This is one reason that when and if I ever look for another life partner I will not have a sexual relationship with that person for quite some time. Six months to a year minimum from the time I am “attracted” to them. I think that by focusing more on the “get to know you” and “see you in many situations” I will not be so likely to allow the “bonding” that takes place (for me at least) along with sexual intimacy. If a man is not willing to “wait” for that intimacy, it disqualifies him as a potential partner anyway.

   Comments on this part of it too, Liane?

   Sunday, 23 March 2008 @ 5:11pm

10. FreeBird says:

    Here I am reading about the “bonding” chemicals, so that I can better understand….better understand “WHY” the “PULL” to read his emails, look at previous emails, search in forums for recent posts from him, etc…… It is absolutely crazy!!!! AND YES, it definitely feels like a compulsion….an addiction….my next “fix”.

    Granted and I must give myself a bit of slack here, it has only been 13 days since I kicked the S out of my home….but still. What I find incredible is that your mind goes from “glad he’s f&$#@en gone and that I can finally breathe and not walk on eggshells” to “what is he feeling/doing/saying?..Where is he? Is he hurting? Is he hurting for me?”…..

    I also agree with your comment OxDrover with regards to the neurochemical phases being reinforced by having sex with an individual. Looking back to the beginning of my relationship with the S, I remember that it didn’t take long before we had sex….and, what made it “worse” (at least for this toxic bonding side of things), he was such a damn good lover, that you were TOTALLY in “gaga land”…..his caress, his gentle words, his “love”, his passion….wow! So, obviously, “yer done for”…

    In fact, I also remember that when I kicked him out the first time, I was smooth talked into meeting with him. I was “sucked in again” by what seemed to be such an honest, loving conversation …. a complete willingness “TO DO ANYTHING” to have me in his life…. It was the perfect simple, yet romantic setting of a picnic evening under the moonlight….perfect foreplay for an incredible night of sex. That was it after that…I was hooked again. I couldn’t get any of this evening out of my mind….I needed/wanted so much more of it…..hungry, after being starved for so long…..addicted.

    As soon as he was back in my house, only 3-4 weeks later, he was back to being the ASSHOLE that I kicked out. The affections, the massages, the soft gentle words of love were all out the window.

    I know it is going to take awhile to try to “delete” these fantasies from my mind….because they were, in fact, only fantasies of what I wanted him to be. He was NEVER this wonderful, loving, affectionate, supportive man….at least, not for long periods of time. He was this “ideal man/lover” ONLY when he saw/felt that he was loosing ground….being found out…being confronted with the deficiencies in a loving relationship.

    I too, if I ever have another relationship (which I can’t even think about nor imagine right now) will definitely WAIT TO HAVE SEX. I know, looking back at it, that this undeniable has a HUGE impact on my love & bonding process towards a man.

    That is of course, if he is a “MAN” and not an absolute “LEACH”…..

    Obviously in deep emotional thought here…but, I think that I need to get it out….need to release these emotions….these frustrations….

    It allows me to breathe….again. Breathing feels good…it has been awhile….

    Calmer now and really glad that I have this forum to enable the healing process for me.

    Thursday, 10 April 2008 @ 8:34am

11. OxDrover says:

    Freebird,

    I have given a lot of thought to the bonding that takes place (or should take place anyway) with a man and a woman having sex (and possibly conceiving a child) in the biological sense.

    Some animals “bond” for a season or a lifetime after they have sex. Geese, wolves, etc and mutually care for their offspring. Humans, I think, have some of this “bonding” chemicall reaction with sex, I think it is more for the female than the male though, as history seems to prove that men can “bond” with more than one woman in some cultures and these actually seem to work in that environment. I’m no anthropologist but have been around several “primitive” cultures in my world traveling and seen various cultures that had mutliple wives in bonded relationships that seemed on the surface at least to work.

    There is also some research that shows that men are sexually attracted to women in the child bearing years more than women over child bearing age, etc. Healthy appearing women vs ones that are not healthy etc. It makes sense biologically that a woman would bond strongly to the man she was having sex with, in an effort to keep him around to hunt for her and any children she had, and it makes sense a man would care for the women who might bear his children in an evolutionary logic. A man could hunt and provide for more than one woman, which would increase his chances of passing on his genes. Also, with war, there might actually be a shortage of healthy males vs healthy females so multiple wives would also make sense in that instance.

    If you read early history, the one man one woman concept was mostly the way it was except for mostly the ruling elite who had many wives and concubines especially in middle eastern and eastern cultures. In some the married women must remain faithful but the man was not expected to. There were greater penalties for women who cheated than there were for men who did.

    With the spread of “western” civilization the one-man-one-woman custom for life seems now to be “one woman, one man AT A TIME” since divorce is now accepted in much of the western world and women have gained some autonomy over their own sexuality as well, and are no longer just “bearers of children.”

    The changes in customs and legal expecations though have not done away with the biological bonding that still takes place with humans though, and that gives the Ps a chance to take advantage of us. I’m like you–sexual bonding will not take place until I am pretty doggone sure that the relationship is solid and if the man isn’t interested in “waiting”–he can move on down the line.

    Thursday, 10 April 2008 @ 12:54pm

12. whatremains says:

    This was an extremely illuminating post — it actually answers a couple of questions I had about some some seemingly counter-indicative behaviors. My ex-girlfriend self-identified as a sociopath. In fact, on the first night we met — though I really had no idea of the gravity of what she was saying — she told me that she was fairly certain she was incapable of love. She did cite an exception, though — her twin sister (fraternal). Also, though virtually everything else I observed about her was consistent with antisocial behavior (e.g. massive manipulations, including having several “sugar daddies — she’s an attractive, charismatic type), she also claimed (and to some extent, displayed) a genuine love for animals. I wonder if this post doesn’t at least explain the abilitiy to care for animals, with its recognition of the power subordination of the pet. Any thoughts on her relationship to her sister, though?

    Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 9:57pm

13. OxDrover says:

    Dear Whatremains,

    First off, welcome to this healing place.

    My take (for what it is worth) on her “love”for her twin sister I think is along the lines of the “owing” the twin sister, as a possession rather than a genuine love bond.

    The word “love” has many uses in English, and only one word. Like “I love Ice cream” or “I love my child” or “I love my husband” –all are different emotions, yet the same word.

    Plus the sociopath can say the words “I love my child” and yet not equate “loving” with feeding the child or providing for that child. I think many times they use the word “love” to mean “I own” rather than the emotions that WE connect with the word “Love.” As Dr.Robert Hare stated so aptly, “they can learn the words but can’t learn the tune.”

    Thank you whateremains for binging this essay back up, it is really a good one.

    Monday, 4 August 2008 @ 10:16pm

14. Odette says:

    Another post that is spot-on. My ex-P was also very amorous and attentive initially but that quickly faded away. Towards the end we hardly ever touched and there was little affection of any kind coming from him. He’d got what he wanted from me and was getting ready to discard me.

    Even after he’d already married someone else (without my knowledge, I thought we were still together) he would still pretend to be jealous of any man who paid me attention. Reading this post makes me wonder if all of that wasn’t because he still considered me to be his possession.

    One of the hardest things for me to deal with is that there isn’t anything in our relationship that I can hold onto as being real and genuine. I’ve been in relationships that ended badly but at least I still had good memories to hold on to - memories of loving, fun moments that were very real and genuine. With this relationship everything was a lie. There are no memories I can evoke that will bring me comfort. Instead, every memory is a reminder of the big lie.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 7:31am

15. southernman429 says:

    Odette,

    Your last paragraph is so true!.. and we all here know that same confusion/hurt….

    I did more with my socio in one year, then in all of the sixteen years I was with my late wife….

    Trips (Two in the Carribean, three to varous places here in the states), parties, weddings, concerts, sports events, weekend get-aways, romantic dinners, the opera, the ballet, shopping sprees, movies……..

    Every weekend was cramed with activities, and there were 100’s of pictures taken in that year…..

    With all of those memories of togetherness, fun, and adventure, it is so sobering that none of it was real… none of them are comforting to me either… in fact, it causes me great pain to think that none of my efforts to have a fun, fulfilling life with her, meant anything to her, and I’m positive that she never thinks about any of those things we did, let alone with any fondness…. it was about her being “entertained”……
    Of course all of that was on my dime…..sigh.
    After she discarded me a couple of years ago, I threw out or deleted all those pictures….. pictures of what seemed to be a loving, happy couple… smiling, happy, in love.

    One of the last things she ever said to me was that she wasn’t happy in our relationship…. I remembered thinking at the time, gee, how could anybody not be happy with all the thoughtful and wonderful things I provided to her????.. That was before I knew what she was…. Of course I know now that she never wanted to be happy, and that it was all a lie….

    Of all the twistedness of a sociopath’s behaviour, the ability to fake love, and create a the illusion of complete togetherness, along with those endearing memories….. that ranks up there among the other hurts that we could see and feel at the time…..Like you said, “every memory is a reminder of the big lie.”

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 8:57am

16. Beverly says:

    Dear Southernman, There are genuine women out there who would give their eye teeth to be go to all those places (not mentioning any names! LOL) and who would be very grateful. You deserve much more wholesome company. Such a waste of energy on those who couldnt care less.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 10:17am

17. Beverly says:

    Yes Oxy, Just reading your post on bonding. From what I read, on an esoteric level, ALOT takes places when physical bonding takes place. Its like, you absorb that person into your blood stream and psyche. I dont know what the echo affects are with regards to the person’s family script, but there are probably repercussions there also.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 10:21am

18. OxDrover says:

    Bev, the Bible says that “the two become one flesh” during the sexual act. I have found many of the explinations in the Bible to be so “right on” about the psychology of life and I think this is one that is true—for NORMAL PEOPLE—people who CAN bond.

    While some women may have a more intense “bond” with men than some men have with women, I think that without the maternal bonding to the father, fewer children would be successfully raised (looking at it from ONLY a biological and evolutionary aspect) but from a spiritual aspect, that pair bonding is going to make for a much more successful life for all involved, for both the man and woman and any offspring.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 10:47am

19. kat_o_nine_tales says:

    Ah, Southernman, how I long to ask you out. lol. Sorry, just feel bad knowing there are decent lovable men out there hurting, while I am here lonely or dating some evil twit.

    Well guys, I feel a little better today, thank you for all your support. Had a sleepless night but my son in Washington State kept me company by phone for a few hours, one of his favorite things to do and a luxury I rarely indulge him with lol.

    I was really surprised to find another message from my ex bf saying “you have nothing nice to say to me”. I regret to say I did fire off a comeback to the effect of “correction, I have nothing at ALL to say to you”. I am waiting a couple of days for him to get back to me on my belongings I left by accident in his car a month ago or so and the money he promised to pay me back. But if he doesn’t get back to me right away on it, I will block him. I really hate having that connection open to him, now that I know it’s there. I was so relieved when I got him and his new gf blocked from communicating with me in most other ways. After I block his SN he will only be able to get me by phone, and I have caller id.

    Feeling like “almost-free” today.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 11:18am

20. southernman429 says:

    Well Kat and Oxy…..

    I learned a lot of good things from all of this with the socio… things I’ll take into the next relationship…. I try not to be bitter about all the money and effort I gave to her… you girls would cringe if you knew about all the nice things I did for her…..like going to Godivia, and having them hand pack a box of her favorite chocholate, and then place the box in my carry on, only to give it to her on the plane so she’d have a nice treat during our flight to one of our destinations…(I did this everytime we went on a trip)….yeah.. I know.. it makes me sick now… lol… or, waking up and making her coffee and bringing to her while she is waking up, and then going outside and warming her car up and scapping her windows, so her car was nice and toasty warm for her when she left to go to work…., or even just making her homemade cookies…… those are just a couple of the hundreads of things I liked to do… I got pleasure from doing for her because I loved her…..well… I look back on all of that, and I’m proud of myself…. I nurtured, and cared and LOVED….. she never did and never will… so sad for her…smiles…

    One of the biggest lessons I learned from all of this is decernment….. measuring what we give with what we recieve.. yes, I’m a giver, and always will be.. but, I have wisdom in that now….again, I am proud of the fact that I can love deeply and truly, without agenda……. I will be much wiser next time, and I can still love and trust… I just will be more careful, and go slower and really get to know the person before I allow any hooks to become attached to my heart….. I have met a few crazy’s since my socio, and I was able to spot them a mile away, and promptly rid myself of them……….so, it’s all good…. we live and we learn, and some of us have hadto learn some painful lessons about the world and the people in it, and we have also had to learn some painful things about ourselves, not that we were or are bad, but lessons about why we were drawn to these types of people, and/or toxic relationships. I’ll never say that I’m glad I met her and went through the hell of it all, but since I did, and I can’t undo that, then I must learn from it and grow as a person, and in that growth, we become even better at being a healthy relationship.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 12:35pm

21. Beverly says:

    Oh Southernman, Dont. I’m turning green! Lol. I have never had anyone do a fraction of what you mentioned for me. But relationships must be give and take. One way is no good.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 2:06pm

22. OxDrover says:

    YOu know, Southernman, some men just have that “instinct” to get a gal what would melt the heart of almost anyone except a P–LOL My loving husband NEVER DID get that “instinct” he bought me things, but things that he THOUGHT I would have liked, and in a way I did, he bought me horses and planes and cars, but I would have traded them all for ONE BOX OF CHOCOLATES, I laugh at it now, but in spite of all the “hints” he never got it! But the one present he gave me that was without PRICE was his love and consideration–even after 20 years of marriage and 40 years of friendship we were just as much in love as we had ever been, maybe in some ways more so. The things he DID for me, helping build a cart for my oxen to pull, driving me all over heck and back to go to the living history events, fixing my computer (all the time), just wanting to BE with me, holding hands in the evenings, those were the things that really mattered, but I SURE would have loved to have had that box of chocolates. LOL

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 2:21pm

23. Lib says:

    I just read this on Reasoned Audacity site and had to share the humor:

    From the American Society of Sociopaths or AS… well, never mind.

    (Twelve steps, modeled after AA, definitely without permission)
    1. We admit that we are powerless over our character flaw - that our lives have become unmanageable — we like it that way.

    2. We have come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity — but we don’t care.

    3. We have made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God or Society, as we understand Him/Her/Them — if we trusted them more than we trusted our own judgment and responsibility.

    4. We have made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves — and have found nothing wrong.

    5. We have admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being(?) the exact nature of our wrongs — perfection.

    6. We are entirely ready to have God remove all of these defects of character — (assuming he put them there in the first place?)

    7. We humbly [sic] ask Him to remove our shortcomings — easy job, since there are few.

    8. We have made a list of all persons we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all — by getting out of their lives.

    9. We will make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others — (see number

    10. We will continue to take personal inventory and when we are wrong promptly admit it — however, other people will surely take on this responsibility for us.

    11. We have sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understand Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out — daddy replacement?

    12. Having had this spiritual awakening as a result of these Steps, we will carry this message to other Sociopaths, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. (see also sex addicts anonymous)

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 2:41pm

24. apt/mgr says:

    I’ve read these comments and can’t help but put in my two cents worth! I had the chocolates, beautiful cards, birthday cakes, but it was the before and after that told the whole tale. Constant complaining when I would ask for him to do something for me. He would do everything for others with a smile and whistle. Occasionally if he was in a good mood, I might warrant getting a favor, but otherwise I waited.

    I would have taken a hug and kiss for no reason, than to have something just because the calendar said he should.

    Reading about all these messed up people, lets me see that I’m more normal than I thought. I couldn’t for the life of me wonder what I was doing wrong. Now I see it wasn’t me. My husband is the one with the problem. I’m in the here and now. I don’t know where he is, other than his past.

    He made mention the other day, after hearing a hymn, that that was the song sung at my aunt’s funeral and the minister’s wife sung it. I just looked at him, like where did that come from. My aunt’s been dead for over 30 years. I can barely remember what she looked like let alone what song was sung at her funeral. And she was my aunt. No wonder he doesn’t remember things that happened with the children.

    All that pretending for all those years. What a waste of precious time and words. Not to mention the sex. Had I known it didn’t mean a thing, I sure would have stayed on my side of the bed!! But I at least have my children. That is my reward for sticking it out. Now I don’t have to pretend anymore. I’m free and so is he. He can live in his past if that makes him happy. Although I did say when one lives in their past, it’s like they have two lives. They have double the time of living, as long as they come back to the here and now. But unless someone has lived in this kind of situation, they have no clue what one endures. But you all do understand. A great comfort.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 2:42pm

25. kat_o_nine_tales says:

    Lol southernman.. you are sweeter than honey. I confess I couldn’t stand it if somebody put themselves out that much for me. I’m too damn independent. But what I always long for is someone to look at me, and REALLY see me, you know?

    I did have one bf long ago that always did that kind of stuff for me, he was the nicest guy in the world. I had to move away for work though.. it sucked.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 4:27pm

26. henry says:

    [The Strangest Thing] take my life - time has been twisting the knife - I don’t recognize people I care for - take my dreams childish and weak at the seams - please don’t analyse - please just be there for me - the things that I know nobody told me - the seeds that are sown they still control me - there’s a liar in my head there’s a thief upon my bed - and the strangest thing is I cannot get my eyes open - take my hand lead me to some peaceful land that I cannot find in my head - wake me with love it’s all I need but in all this time still no one said…if I had not asked would you have told me - if you call this love why don’t you hold me - there’s a liar in my head there’s a thief upon my bed - and the strangest thing is I cannot get my eyes open - give me something I can hold - give me something to believe in - I am frightened for my soul. please please make love to me. send love through me - heal me with your crime - the only one who ever knew me - we’ve wasted so much time - so much time

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 4:28pm

27. kat_o_nine_tales says:

    OMG Henry.. find a new soundtrack.. quick!

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 4:45pm

28. Beverly says:

    Hiya Henry. I like that George Michael album too. Yes good words on that song.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 5:18pm

29. henry says:

    Hi Bev!!! That is from his album (older), every track on that album sound’s like he is singing about sociopath’s. There are some more up beat song’s also. Any way, I have kinda reached a turning point, (reframing) and as always doing alot of soul searching. The phrase ( The truth will set you free - but first it will piss you off) I have asked myself - what is my truth? My truth is right before my eye’s, it has always been there. I think I have let go of most of the pain over my experience with (M). I keep remembering Wini’s analogy of the turtle and the scorpion. That is what they do. Seems like I have let go of him in stages. Each time it is a little less painful - but necessary. So I go to my hill and talk to the stars - and I have been getting so many answer’s, each time I leave some pain - I send it up to the stars. Yes the truth has alway’s been right before my eyes……….

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 7:10pm

30. OxDrover says:

    Henry, The bushmen in the deserts of Africa talk to the stars and they also LISTEN TO THE STARS as well, They are amazed that we cannot “hear’ the stars. Since I came back from Africa so many many years ago, I still try to “hear” the stars on clear nights. The bushmen feel a “tapping” in their chest when the stars are going to talk to them, and they sit silently and listen to the messages from the stars.

    I’m not sure if they really can hear the stars, but I do know that they listen quietly to themselves—and I think that is one thing that “we” (civilized folk) don’t do enough of. I’ve been doing a lot more “listening” to myself of late, and I think that has been very helpful.

    What is my truth? What is the meaning of my life? What are my goals? Lots of questions, and some answers. Coming to the realization–the DEEP realization that this life is “temporary” at best and all we are guarneteed is TODAY. If I got the news tomorrow that I would die in 7 days–what would I do with those seven days? What would I say to those I love, those that have been there for me?

    So, I say those things today. I hug my son D in the morning and I say “I love you” and I call or e mail my son C and I say, “I love you, and I am so proud of you.” I am trying to live TODAY like it WILL be the last day of my life. A day without any regrets, any feelings that I should have done something different. I may stumble tomorrow, and hit the pit again, but for TODAY I’m okay, I’m healing and life is good.

    Tuesday, 5 August 2008 @ 11:05pm

31. James says:

    “The attraction phase usually lasts no more than 18 months”

    Very interesting that it will last about that time frame. One I guess would call that the “honeymoon” stage that can last to a year or so. So after this “honeymoon” i.e. attraction phase we began to behave normally and then some see us as more or less like we really are. Some behavior patterns that might be repressed and controlled began to show itself. I believe sociopaths understand this “attraction phase” and then use it to pull you in hook line and sinker. This also explains why many are in a rush to move the relationship along quickly. They know there is a “time line”. Once under control then the mask comes off and the real people (if you can call them that?) stands before you. It is more then enough time to place traps hooks or whatever like moving in together or buying a home, sharing a business or money accounts. God forbid having a child. 18+ months is a long time for those that know how to use it to control one as a object possession. Still if one is educated and learn to look or feel for red flags and I do believe we will see them. We just need to remember to look (feel) for them and try to be as un-judgmental and open as one can be. One thing concerning red flags is that I try not to “look” for them but instead just allow them to happen over a natural course of time. If one tries to look for something we always find it even if it isn’t there.

    Very interesting thread and thanks!

    Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 12:29pm

32. OxDrover says:

    Dear James,

    Very good points about not “looking for” the Red Flags, but NOTICE THEM IF THEY ARISE. And, if they are there, they WILL arise I am sure. My P-XBF was flying them high in the first four months, and I did see them, but pushed them off, excused them, tried to ignore them, push down my gut feelings as much as I could–anything to keep from acknowledging what my gut was telling me. It was too TOO painful to admit that he was a FAKE—but within 4 months he got comfortable that he had me HOOKED so the verbal snide remarks started coming more often, the anger outbursts which I tried to “fix”—by not doing anything to “make him” angry—how self demeaning I was—anything to hold on to the FANTASY that he wasn’t a fake.

    One day it hit me like a ton of bricks. My husband had only one “buddy” or “friend” that I did not like, in fact, detested. They had been “buddies” for 30 plus years and the guy happened to have moved to the area my husband and Imoved back to (my home area) and accidently found each other again and so he started to come over all the time. Plus, we started going to his house, etc. It wasn’t long before we grated on each other’s nerves and he was vocal to my husband how I was an “uppity” woman and that my husband should get “control” over me like he had over HIS WIFE.

    Well, eventually, before my husband died, this man’s wife FLEW THE COOP, broke the bars of her enslavement and left him. Oh, the pooor POOOOOOR VICTIM he was, he now was ALONE. POOOOOR HIM. Then after my husband died he was such a JERK the day before the memorial service I almost had to throw him out of my home. Blaming me for my husband’s death. Anyway, this man was despicable and I despised him no end. But while I was crying from another abuse by my now-X BF-P, my son and I drove by the freeway turn off to this “friend’s” home, and it SNAPPED that my BF was JUST LIKE HIM. That they were “twin brothers”—neither respected anyone, especially women, and all they wanted women for were sex and adoration and to wait on themm hand and foot, to provide a “home” for them and bow and scrape. That was when I absolutely KNEW that my BF was a P, uncaring, a TOTAL LIE.

    It is amazing sometimes that things come to us in “flashes” like that that are so OBVIOUS that we cannot ignore them. Nomatter how we want to ignore them. We have to face that it is a FACT, and though we weep for our “loss” we have to accept that we can’t fix it, we have “been had.” That realization as I passed that freeway exit was like a “message from God” telling me the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, giving me an example I could not “brush away” like a cob web. It HIT ME IN THE FACE like a bucket of cold water.

    The ONLY route I had to stop the pain from going on forever was to KICK THE P TO THE CURB….and it was like cutting off my own arm or leg in order to save my life. It was PAINFUL BUT NECESSARY, like a surgery for cancer—and I had to do it with a dull, rusty butcher knife without any anestethic, but it was all that would save my life, my soul and my sanity and STOP the pain. But it was worth it.

    Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 3:06pm

33. Ginger says:

    James & Ox–Your points are so right on! My ex S and I moved in together after only dating for six months. Now he is engaged. He has known her since the end of December and got engaged within one month of meeting her. While we were together I saw the red flags, I was actually tripping on them, but I kept getting back up. He explained away each and every flag and I believed him. Eventually, I just exhausted myself. There have been red flags for his new victim, but she is not seeing them. For example, he resigned from his job because he was stealing money. I believe she only knows what he is telling her. Sometimes it still doesn’t seem real that he is this way. I see all the destruction that he causes, but I still can’t believe what I am seeing.

    I have been reading a number of articles on this site and they are really good. They make me think. I asked my counselor the other day–why can’t I let go? I don’t love him and I don’t want to be with him, but I can’t let go. I actually still think about having sex with him and it makes me sick thinking about him having sex with someone else. If I said this to anyone that would think I was crazy, but I don’t think that here–among friends. Also, I have to take one day at a time with NC. I have children so this is difficult. I try to communicate only by email and text messaging, but it is hard. If I do speak to him I try to keep it about the kids. When does this get easier? Each day I need to consciously not communicate with him and I get so anger when I think of things he did to me and my family. I am moving in a forward direction, but I am still stuck. Right now, I am trying to get my house ready to sell and I am moving closer to my family, about 20 minutes away. This is going to be a war with my ex, but I have to do this for myself and for the betterment of my kids. I don’t think they will see the benefit at first and I am not sure how much my ex S will try to manipulate my kids. He is going to be enraged because of his lack of control over me and the kids. I am really afraid he may try to take the kids from me. He will make it difficult for me.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to ramble, but I guess I needed to vent.

    Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 8:30pm

34. OxDrover says:

    Dear Ginger,

    YOur concerns about “attacks” from him because he loses control is valid. They are all about control.

    I know it must be tough having to have any contact with him and him having contact with your kids, knowing what you know about him.

    When does it get easier? I wish I could tell you a number, or a day. Unfortunately it is different for each of us, depending on how much we know, how “bad” the P is, our support, etc.

    Knowledge=Power though, Ginger, and I suggest that you keep on gaining knowledge, through here and other places, learning all you can about how a psychopath “thinks” and “works” on us. Keep your EXTERNAL cool, and try not to “provoke” him, or get into power fights with him. Pick your battles, and don’t let him get a reaction when he pushes your buttons. YOu may have to become “the world’s greatest actress” but it is for the benefit of your children.

    I am glad that you are seeing a counselor, and I hope to goodness that your counselor “gets it” about the psychopaths.

    Their ability to lie and manipulate “free form” and not have any consideration for “us” makes you at a disadvantage when dealing with them. I hate to say this but you may have to learn to be as much of a manipulator and an actress and a “fake” as he is in order to “work” him for your children’s benefit.

    First, realize that he is EVIL and that anything he does is for HIS gratification, your humiliation, and his PERCEIVED POWER.

    Act like you don’t want to move but you HAVE TO, apologize to him, debase yourself, but don’t let him catch on that you are “working” him, so take it slowly. Many times they will try to push your buttons by “losing” the kids’ clothes, bringing them in late, or not picking them up at all. I wouldn’t even act like I “noticed” these jabs. They are for attention and to try to “start a fight.” If you ignore them they may get worse, or they may cease all together.

    He will PRIMARILY, I think, use the kids as pawns in the game to push your buttons.

    Also, I hope you have a good lawyer, that is another thing they will do is keep you in legal limbo and bankrupt you in the courts if they can.

    Good luck, Ginger, and “keep the faith”–these Ps are evil, and unfeeling, except for revenge, rage, etc. and they just love to push your buttons.

    My advise may not be the best, but think about various ways to “work” him—being honest and up front with him and him being the lying sack ofpoo that he is, he will turn it around on you. Just whatever you do, BE CAUTIOUS. (((hugs)))

    Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 9:46pm

35. kat_o_nine_tales says:

    I have such mixed feelings about my ex-cheater bf.. just like Ginger above, it actually makes me sick to think about him with another woman. I loved him with all his faults, and I’ve had a horrible time letting go even though I know it is for the best. Today I got so sick over it I just had to crawl in bed for a while.

    Wednesday, 6 August 2008 @ 10:49pm

36. henry says:

    kat- it hurt’s bad - real bad - if your going through Hell keep on going - we are here for you…….and you WILL survive….and the pain will stop—someday—-just take care of your health please, there is not alot you can do for the pain you are in now except go through it…and please realize this is a life lesson - don’t fail it….

    Thursday, 7 August 2008 @ 1:04am

37. akitameg says:

    I am experiencing huuuuge depression. was discarded by my S 6 weeks ago. He had even conned a shrink who kept telling ME I WAS in the wrong when I doubted this man’s comittment. How sickening.

    I have left my job and the state in which I resided for 10 years. Have no money..No insurance. Staying with friend in one room apt in a major city.
    Need job- how can I even function?
    Losing my mind. Have no kids.
    Any advice?
    What if I do not survive this pure/raw evil?

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 12:05pm

38. bigdude says:

    Akitameg, you have no choice but to survive. You are all you have left. There are geat people on this site, and some of their wisdom and insight has helped me maintain a (tenuous) grip on reality. Read all the blogs on here, and know that you are not alone in this. There are decent caring people out there. All of the people on this site have been affected by a sociopath in one way or another. Its through other people sharing their stories that I am managing to put my own situation in perspective.

    I have been maintaining a blog on my myspace page, sharing my thoughts and feelings, and sharing any advice i find on how to cope. I dont alow people to comment on it because of my ex, but if there is anything that can help on there then I am glad.

    http://www.myspace.com/bigdude

    There are a great many caring individuals on here, listen to them, take what tips you can from them, and try to rebuild. I am about 6 weeks out of my relationship, after being together for 7 years. I understand what you are feeling as does everybody on here. I have been helped here and you will too.
    Good luck

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 3:44pm

39. lostingrief says:

    hi everyone. my internet has been off, but i’ve been doing okay (as i certainly hope all my friends here are!) …
    until TODAY!!!
    so, NC for 14 weeks. this morning i see a call come in as UNAVAILABLE. i know it’s him. i’ve been able to ‘feel’ his energy lately. i don’t answer. he leaves a message. ready for this? :
    ”hi baby, it’s W. i need a favor but not like you think. uh…it’s important that i speak to you. you know, i don’t have anything against you at all. as a matter of fact, i hope you and your new boyfriend (I DON’T HAVE ONE!) are well and life is treating you good. but i need your advice. i don’t know where you’re at with me, but you know, i gravitate toward you when things are bad, and trust me (YEA RIGHT!), they’re bad. so, call me back on my cell. it’s important. you’re the only one i can talk to right now.”

    my initial reaction? where does he find the BALLS, GUMPTION, GALL, whatever, to even dial my phone number? then, i think about it. about the 20 years i had his back, took care of him, loved him. i think about how we laughed, and loved, and how sexually attracted we were to eachother.
    then i think about how he destroyed my entire being: my self-esteem, my heart, my love, my sanity. how he got a girl half my age pregnant while he was living with me, and lied about it for months and months, blaming me, and emotionally abusing me. no apologies, no discussion. i was dumped.

    i didn’t call him back. but i’m feeling guilt about it. i’ve never turned my back to him when he was in need. even when we didn’t live in the same city. i was always there for him. i guess that was part of the problem.

    okay, friends. so WHAT DOES HE WANT?
    do i have any reason whatsoever to feel guilty?
    if i don’t call him back, will he leave me alone?
    thanks for your input.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 5:06pm

40. bigdude says:

    LOstingrief, I am waiting for my ex-soc to pull that one on me, and I hope she never does. I had to call her today so I waited till I knew she was in class and called her cell phone. That way I could just leave a message. I told her not to call me (she cant afford to anyway now) but she needs to e-mail me something regarding a jont business venture. I want her release on it.
    She is going to tweak me around about it, I already know this.
    But, if she calls me like you ex did to you I already know what to say. The trouble is in making them angry. Have to be careful there, my ex is a fruitloop, she could actually be capable of anything.
    If he calls back do not answer. And keep not answering. We become addicted to these people. And a habit is hard to break. Believe me, I know.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 5:46pm

41. lostingrief says:

    bigdude: i can’t answer. he is so seductive that i am certain he’d have me twisted and hooked within five minutes. he’s a MASTER s/p/n.
    i called a friend and they said that, ‘of course it is wonderful to want to be there for someone in need (MY THINKING), BUT (big but!) it is masochistic to feel guilt not being there for someone who did nothing but undermine you, torment you, cheat on you, mind-twist you, lie to you and thieve against you.”

    i feel better but still wonder what he’s truly looking to know, see, have after all this time away from me. last i heard from him, he ”didn’t even LIKE” me; hated me ‘’swag”; blamed me for his cheating (and for his hating his wife!). now, i’m the only one he can talk to? what is it REALLY about?

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:07pm

42. Beverly says:

    Dear Lostingrief. Good for you not returning the call, but why feel guilty. You owe him nothing, now, he broke the relationship in a hurtful way and thought nothing of you then - why should you bail him out. If he has messed up his life, then it is his responsibility to sort it out. I dont know whether he will stop calling, but if he gets no reaction from you, he will probably get the message. Lets put it this way - if you were to call him back, he wont leave you alone. You just have to be really strong and hard hearted if needs be to protect yourself.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:23pm

43. lostingrief says:

    beverly: yes! hard-hearted!!! that’s it!!!
    i have never been hard-hearted in my entire existence. it is so incredibly foreign to me. but i’m starting to understand why it is an important survival mechanism!
    i will try hard to be hard-hearted in this situation. he deserves nothing more!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:28pm

44. Beverly says:

    Those people with caring and nurturing natures are ideal prey for those people with personality disorder. We have to learn to protect our tender hearts and not to offer ourselves and our gifts to those who do not deserve and who would seek to damage us.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:35pm

45. lostingrief says:

    yea, i hear ya’, but they sure are STEALTH.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:41pm

46. OxDrover says:

    Dear LIG,

    GOOD FOR YOU NOT CALLING HIM! You can believe he is not deserving of anything from you, even a phone call. He is trying to hook you back into his web, just like a spider.

    Yes, life may be the pits for him. SO WHAT? If things are bad for him “really bad” WHOSE FAULT IS IT? Yours? NO. Whose responsibility is it? Yours? NO.

    If you had chit on someone the way he chit on you, would you have the BALLS to call them and “ask a favor?” NO! Then why should YOU feel guilty? GUILT is what you feel when you have done something bad. You have NOT DONE ANYTHING BAD.

    I went to the casino and blew my paycheck and I can’t make my car payment now. I really NEED you to make it for me. If you don’t feel guilty for not doing it, you are a bad person. If I get in trouble because of the way I have behaved and you don’t fix it, you are a bad person. IS ANY OF THAT TRUE? Of course not. Well, why is it true for him? Why should you be obligated to fix his screw ups? You are NOT! That doens’t mean you are hard hearted, it means you are REASONABLE and RATIONAL. You don’t owe him a thing.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 6:51pm

47. Beverly says:

    (Hi Oxy). Dear Lostingrief. If you are going to develop your boundaries, you may as well get some practice in! He is just chancing it, to see if you weaken, the old sob story often works on women. Oxy is right, he just wants to hook you back into his game.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 7:01pm

48. Wini says:

    lostingrief: My EX called me from GA desperately asking my help with his financial disaster. We were engaged at the time (so I believed) and naturally, I would do anything for us as a couple.

    Well, his desperate situation was (as told by him) was that his EX wife conned a newly licensed attorney to bring him into court for missing 2 months of child support payments. He changed companies and was working in a company that’s HQ was in Texas and told me that Texas didn’t automatically attach child support payments to go directly to his EX wife … that he didn’t realize this … and now he’s in a jam with his Ex-wife, the attorney, the court.

    What did I do? Frantically, I wired him the amount of $15,000 for all payments owned for future and the 2 months back child support payments.

    Do to his arrest … he couldn’t contact his boss since he was only given 1 phone call. He lost his job.

    When he got out of jail and was back in the house I owned in Georgia … of course I asked if he was financially available to pay the mortgage now that he didn’t have his job. He told me, he was OK with finances for a few months, not to worry about the mortgage payments … that he was looking for another job, and everything should be OK for the next few months.

    Months went by after this fiasco … he was in and out of court with his EX wife …

    He then told me that he was getting nervous about not having a job yet … and if I could help in out with $$$ just in case he ran out … he needed to ensure the mortgage was paid …

    Sure enough, I wired another $5,000 down to him.

    He thanked me and said, he sent the mortgage bank several months of mortgage payments so that he didn’t have to worry about the mortgage and he would concentrate on getting another job.

    So of course, my mind was put at ease …

    Months later, he called frantically asking if I didn’t love him anymore and why did I have him locked out of the house. I was sitting in work during this phone call and immediately said, what are you talking about, I didn’t lock you out … what are you talking about …?

    He said he went to start the car, the battery was dead … he then had the neighbor take him to the auto store to purchase a new battery … when he got home, half the furniture was on the front lawn, with our stuff and the sheriff’s pad locked the doors … took our pets … and he was now calling me asking me what was going on.

    Of course, I’m floored over this … I told him that I didn’t do this to him, it must be some mistake … I got off the phone with my EX and immediately called my attorney … told him what was just told to me … he contacted the appropriate people in the courts, sheriff’s office etc.

    When I got home, my attorney told me that my house was foreclosed.

    Panic struck me from my head to my toes … I was spinning with fear, confusion … trying to find out what we could in one state, talking with my fiance in the state it happened in … finding out that he was trying to check into a hotel, get the pets back, talk with the sheriff’s/courts etc.

    We were back and forth all night long doing the best we can do … the situation was so surreal since paperwork was never submitted to me in the state I live and I held the mortgage. My mortgage company never notified me, the sherrif’s office never notified me … no one pertaining to my mortgage, the courts … no one notified me.

    To make a long story short, I believed everything was being handled with the attorney I retained in Georgia … this attorney told me he’d handle everything with my fiance and for me to focus on my lawsuit I was handling at the time against my bosses.

    That was July 2002 … in November of 2006, I uncovered paper work my EX left behind in my house.

    The money I sent him for his back child support payments of $15,000 was never paid to his EX wife … he was never arrested that year by his EX, he was however, in court with her the previous fall …

    He bought 2 horses (1 for him, 1 for his other fiance that lived with him in my house, slept in my bed, used my walk-in closet), put a down payment for a brand new Ford Explorer for her, bought 2 saddles, a Rinker boat, whine and dined he and his other fiancee on my dime, took trips on my credit card, bilked them to their limits … and I had no clue this was going on either … since the credit cards went to the Georgia address … not to my home address where I live …

    Should I go on … about their EMERGENCY phone calls … all frantic and baby baby baby it’s you and me and you’re the only one I can rely on … blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

    Hang up … erase your answering machines … and stay on this site with us sweety, it’s a con …

    Besides, who cares what his problems are … it is non of your concern.

    Peace.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 7:10pm

49. bigdude says:

    Damn Wini, yours makes my ex-soc look like a rank amateur.

    Lostingrief, you will be fine. You owe him nothing. You have to protect yourself first.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 7:40pm

50. Stargazer says:

    Lost in Grief,
    You and GeminiFairy must be on the same wavelength today because her ex also called her asking her for favors. They always call when they want something, don’t they. They don’t care how much hell they put you through. And they think just the sound of their voice will get you under their spell again so you will give them what they want. Don’t let him do that to you. See him for what he is–a cheating, two-timing using liar. Walk away.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 7:45pm

51. Indigoblue says:

    anyone in the house?

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 7:52pm

52. Wini says:

    Bigdude: Ya think? That’s why I tell everyone … their EXs are cons with ulterior motives when getting involved with us. Period.

    Hey, if they robbed banks … like the other bank robbers out there, they’d have a 50/50 chance that some officer would shoot them in their butts … because of their Narcissism, they don’t want bullets riddled into them. So what do they do instead … mmhhhh, let me think … oh yeah, they date us and take us for everything we have.

    I’m telling you ALL our EXs are Cons and CRIMINALS … every single one of them … men and women … they are thieves, liars, lazy and don’t want to work to get what they want … as Donna mentions in her first log on this site, WE ARE THEIR CAREERS.

    Peace.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:16pm

53. Gemini_Fairy says:

    LIG, Good for you for not picking up. I foolishly did - he wanted money. I relapsed and told him that I didn’t have it but I was here if he needed me. Now I’m trying to recover myself from doing that. So I’m glad you didn’t answer bc right now I’m obsessing and feeling all sorts of emotions about how I’m going to handle him the next time he calls.

    But I do feel A LOT better now thanks to StarG!!! Shout out to StarG!!!!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:23pm

54. Stargazer says:

    Word up, GemF!
    Are you seeing the M.O. here? They all call when they want something. They don’t call because they care about you. If there had been actual caring, it would have happened in place of the lying, stealing, and cheating! GemF, did you read the part in the article about how they appear to take care of you sometimes because they regard you as a possession?

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 8:52pm

55. Gemini_Fairy says:

    StarG,

    I did see that part and when I think about it he did think he did see me as a possession. He would tell me I belonged to him. I feel a twisty inside - thoughts of what he did and things that he said. Snakes and ladders indeed.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:07pm

56. Iwonder says:

    I don’t know who wrote this in their post but it made me laugh real hard. The person wrote sociopaths see us as nothing more than a piece of toilet paper to use to wipe their arse with. That is a great analogy. LOL!!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:23pm

57. Stargazer says:

    Well, if I was a piece of toilet paper, I hope I was at least Charmin!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:55pm

58. Gemini_Fairy says:

    ohhh so soft!!!!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:57pm

59. Stargazer says:

    Yes, and please don’t squeeze the Charmin!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 9:58pm

60. bigdude says:

    mysel? I hope i feel like that nasty cheap russian toilet paper that you could use to as sandpaper on her nether regions.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:23pm

61. Iwonder says:

    bigdude: HAAAAA! HAAA! That’s great!

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:26pm

62. Stargazer says:

    I imagine some people were the 1-ply brands. Their exes had to use twice as much for the same effect.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:44pm

63. Iwonder says:

    Well I hope mine was so thin a hole tore through it during the act and left a skid mark on his stinky smelly finger.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 10:54pm

64. bigdude says:

    I dont know, in a way I feel like the universe is balanced a litle.
    I found out tonight that the guy my ex-soc targeted before she discarded me may actually be an even worse sociopath than she is. If its true, then they both really do deserve each other.

    Friday, 7 November 2008 @ 11:08pm

65. lostingrief says:

    Well, thank you ALL!
    whew. I fell asleep at 8 p.m. and just woke up! so much for a nap! must have been that first beer in a year that i had with dinner! what a lightweight!!!

    Wini: OMG! your story was unbelievable, horrible, unimaginable. i certainly have read snippets of your situation, but that really gave me the whole pic. and i’m so glad you are doing well after all that.
    Iwonder/StarG: hiya! long time no blog with you! when are you all coming to NYC?
    GemF: how’s my TWIN sistah?
    Ox, good to see ya! miss the wisdom.
    Beverly, Bigdude: thanks for being there for me!

    okay, so i never did call him. he tried me again last night. twice. i didn’t answer; he didn’t leave a message. what amazed me was how he didn’t even say anything to hook me back — ”i miss you, i love you, i left my pregnang gf.” he barely tried, now that i think of it. since i was the ‘mommy with benefits’, seems he was looking more for the mommy than his old lover.
    i KNOW that i will get hooked by him again if i call him back, so therefore, it is NC all the way. he knows i am incredibly curious and nosy, so he played that card. guess what he doesn’t realize is i’m no longer that curious about him.
    the only upside would be to actually know if his gf WAS/IS pregnant, did he tell his wife (like he said he did), are they still together. he actually said, ”i’m not sure how upset you are with me’ — can you believe that!!? is he kidding? curious about him? i was at the moment, but then i thought, ”who gives a rats ass?” LOSER!
    so, i’m good.
    and you guys, as always are AMAZING.

    my computer is working again, so i’ll be checking in a little more regularly.
    so, one time, all together now:
    TOWAAAAAAANDAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 5:08am

66. lostingrief says:

    regarding possessing us:
    he used to say to me: ”that’s mine!” as he gazed down my body with those devil-seductive eyes.
    i used to think it was sexy. now i just think: what a disgusting pig! how many females has he said THAT to?
    one thing that’s still making me angry is this:
    in his first message to me after i threw him out (TWO days later), he said: ”i know you had someone with you last night. i came by and you didn’t answer the door. i hope he will be good to you!” (ARRGH!!! guess it didn’t occur to him i didn’t answer the door because i HATE him).
    then yesterday in his message he said: ”i hope life is treating you well. and i hope your new boyfriend is treating you well, too.” i HATE that he thinks i just went out and moved on like he did! i HATE IT! i really want to say to him, ”hey, shithead, i’m NOT YOU!!! i don’t go running off with the first cute guy that glides by my field of vision! i’m ALONE! i’m not the one who’s a HO!
    but uh … i’m okay … grrrrrr….!
    over and out.
    peace.

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 5:15am

67. Wini says:

    lostingrief: He doesn’t want you back because you’re mommy … he wants you back so that he knows where he can find you, when he wants to find you, not that he wants to find you, mind you, just keeping all those that are in his life, nice and neatly packaged. Package 1 is here, package 2 is here, package 3, 4, 5 … get the big picture?

    Remember, they don’t do LIFE solo. The big cowards!

    I’m glad you didn’t call … now erase the tape so you don’t keep playing it back all weekend, cause you know you will wafffle … erase it!

    Come on … you can do it … get rid of anything pertaining to him. (LOL).

    Peace.

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 10:03am

68. Stargazer says:

    LIG: YOU GO GIRL!!! I am so proud of you for not picking up his calls. It is very obvious that he’s playing some sort of game. Don’t stoop to that level to play games with him. Yuck! How sad that all these people have to do to occupy their minds is to play games. I wonder what his gf thinks about him harassing you! The poor thing.

    Why, oh why, can’t you guys come to DENVER?! I’m cooking for Thanksgiving, and I’m off of work the whole week. Any of you are welcome if you could make it out this way. I cannot afford to travel at the moment (or much else, sadly), pending the short sale of my condo.

    Peace out,
    StarG

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 10:50am

69. bird says:

    LIG I am not surprised he is not saying all the right things to get you back, even though he is calling you. Mine does the same exact thing. Checks in and calls, but doesn’t beg me back. I read in malignant self love they will purposely withhold sex to frustrate people who are into them. They will also withhold love to frustrate, they get off on it. Once you have gone through the cycle of idealize, devalue, discard one time, you will never go back to the position of idealized. You might be valued again (which is why he is calling). This sets you up to be in the devalue/discard cycle, which can go on for the rest of your life if you allow it. But never again will we be idealized by them again.

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 11:53am

70. bird says:

    btw-my ex used to say “that’s mine” to me too:) Funny, your guy left you for a pregnant lady? I was pregnant, what was your guys name lol just kidding, don’t tell me.

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 12:01pm

71. OxDrover says:

    Dear Bird and LIG, yea they think they OWN US, and that “power trip” is what it is all about. Bird your words are so wise, you will never be idealized again and it is just another set up for “devaluing” sort of like a fishing lure in front of a fish, and as soon as you get close they jerk it out of the water. Or a carrot in front of a donkey! LOL But once you are “on to” the game, you don’t have to grab at the lure any more.

    A “carrot” made out of “chit” still tastes like “chit” LOL

    ps. Bird, give my baby Birdie a big hug!!!!

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 12:56pm

72. lostingrief says:

    bird: not exactly. he GOT her pregnant, then left me.

    all great posts here. wini, i deleted the message after a i let a few select friends rage over it with me!

    i’m pretty proud of myself. i sure am curious, but i’m enjoying the TOTAL lack of drama in my life again. so, no sense listening to more lies. no matter what he says, i won’t believe him anyway. he’s the most unbelievable liar that could possibly exist in the history of the world! and he’s … OUTTA HERE!
    thanks all.

    WOOHOO and TOWANDA!!!

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 1:29pm

73. Iwonder says:

    Hi LIG: I’m going on 6 mos post-sociopath. I still wonder if he was planning to leave me for her or if he wound up with her because i found out and kicked him out. In any event, I had to have contact with him for 5 mos to get my property back. That was extremely stressful. At first he would say he needs to work on him and get his own place, yadda yadda. I kept thinking maybe there was hope in getting back together. Now that was a sick thought. However, a few weeks after he was gone I had to see things for what they really were. The ex used me for a place to live for free and was using the OW for another place to live for free as a backup…like when my money ran out or when he got caught. I finally told him, “You wanted to be with her, now you are. You win. I lose. Sometimes life is not fair. Now just give me back my car and my home. Stay with her. You still have a chance to make things work out with her.” Once I turned those tables around, he knew there was no manipulating me anymore. In actuality, I won. I did not let him get over on me. I got my car back. Got my house back. Got my sanity and peace back. Now I have had NC for 10 days (I still had some of his crap in the garage to get rid of.) I wish I could have had NC right away.

    Now the OW on the otherhand, has been lied to. She will never really know if he was planning to leave me or if she “won” by default. She will never trust he is not cheating on her. She will have to drive his sorry ass around in her car. She will have to take all the verbal, emotional, financial and physical abuse that I did. She will have to constantly check is phone. I say serves him right. Serves her right.

    Had i not discovered the truth and exposed his evil plot to him, he may have continued to try to play both of us. He would have skipped out on me like a thief in the night and I would have had no clue where he went or what the hell happened.

    LIG, be greatful you know the truth. It’s easier to deal knowing about what he has done because of what he is (a sociopath) then to be left clueless. NC! NC!

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 2:43pm

74. Iwonder says:

    LIG: My ex used to say “that’s mine” about my you know what too. He probably said that to the OW too. Gross.

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 2:46pm

75. Stargazer says:

    I didn’t date my ex long enough to see him get possessive or controlling. I think I may have broken up with him on the cusp of a discard–not really sure what his game was at the time. But now that I think about it, he did seem to need me to post on RTB when he was at home in order to cure his boredom. He seemed terminally bored. He would always tell me that the site was boring without me. I used to think he missed me and was trying to be sweet. But I think he was seriously trying to fix his boredom problem. Then, after we split, he followed me around at the last reptile expo. At one point he leaned in like he was trying to smell my hair. Ewwww. After all he’d put me through, I can’t believe he was trying to cast some sort of magnetism over me with physical attraction. It was just creepy. The whole scene was just “not normal”.

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 3:49pm

76. lostingrief says:

    Iw: they are just so gross. funny how i used to think that was ‘hot.’ LOL. i guess it might have been if he wasn’t also saying it to half the females in new york city!!!

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 5:43pm

77. Stargazer says:

    When you’ve been in NC for a while, you really start seeing things more clearly for what they were. All the many phone calls that I thought was from a “man in love” was actually me being stalked. When I remember how sweet and romantic he was, I’m also remembering that he never actually asked me questions about my life, and never told me very much about his past. In fact when I asked him what he did for a living before he joined the army at 28, he was evasive. Hmmmm.

    Beautiful NC. Good for so many things……

    Saturday, 8 November 2008 @ 8:02pm

78. henry says:

    Iwonder and LIG you two crack me up~~~~!!!!!!! I am sitting here lmao….thanks….lol

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 2:55am

79. jules says:

    hi, has anyone experienced the s paths saying : i shouldnt have to explain this or i dont need to explain myself….. they usually say this after totally confusing us with something they have done or said. my ex spath said this once after promissing to call me then not calling, so when i asked him what happened why he didnt call, he said i shouldnt have to explian my self. talking riddles left me even more perplexed. anyone else found this please share with me.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 8:03am

80. bird says:

    henry, iwonder and lig mine did the same thing. I remember the first time he said it I had to take a double take. I was like what? But I just figured he was talking dirty. Once I started reading on here that they don’t love you, they see you as a possesion, then it made sense.

    jules mine would make me feel guilty for questioning him about thigs. Like “you think I would do that! You really do?” and I’d be like, “you’re right, I’m sorry” when in fact he was doing it all and more.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 8:35am

81. Wini says:

    Yes, jules, it’s called having a hidden agenda … opposite of loving and caring for you.

    We are just stepping stones for our EXs so they can steal what they want, when they want, any time they want from us, as well as all the other relationships they have going … all at the same time.

    I hope I cleared up any of the RIDDLES he spoke to you.

    Peace.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 8:45am

82. Stargazer says:

    Jules,
    Mine would promise to call and then not call. He did this frequently. He would always just apologize and then go on as if it were no big deal. I kept track of all the times he did this, and when I brought it up, he said, “Wow, you remember everything, don’t you?”. When he thought he was going to lose me, he tried really hard to call when he said he would. He would do this for a week or two. And he would always point it out, like a little kid who was proud of his school project: “See? I said I was gonna call and I did!” Or “Haven’t I been good about calling when I said I would?” It was as if the breaking of promises was just a normal, everyday occurrence to him. Because it was normal to him, I almost got habituated to it. I was so angry at him once that I told him I had considered just not being home when he drove the hour up to see me, and then not returning his calls, to give him a taste of his own medicine. He said very calmly, “You should do that, I deserve it” in a very calm and sincere voice, as if these behaviors were completely normal in his world. I was really scratching my head over this one. Why would people treat each other like this?

    At the end when he pulled the final no-call/no-show, he said “I have no excuse. I wanted to but I didn’t.” It was truly the most bizarre behavior I’d ever seen. He often would appear genuinely remorseful for the lies and broken promises. But it didn’t stop him from repeating the pattern. It took me 2-1/2 months to figure out it was a character defect and get my butt out of the situation.

    Up until then, I believed it to be a symptom of his head injury, together with all the stress he was under from all the medical tests the army was putting him through, and impending divorce. I was after our breakup that I found out there was no head injury and no divorce. He was faking the injury to get out of the army.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:31am

83. Indigoblue says:

    When the Mask slips ! They blurt out what they cannot feel or understand or even grasp for any length of time!

    If there is NO RELATIONSHIP to begin with only a perception on ( our ) part ! Then you ( us ) are not entitled to an explanation of their behavior or mind set !

    As long as you ( we ) keep looking in That Mirrior and the lies ! Your ( our ) perception will remain that there is something Human there ,some hope of a relationship??

    Which part of NO can (we ) not understand?? LOVE jere

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:39am

84. henry says:

    I think they take the mask off when they are bored with us - when they become bored with mirroring us - they see the dark evil parts of them looking back at them when they mirror us - so they look for fresh humanity that does not bare the mark of their own tortured souls - they are mimic’s - thats all they can do - but they get bored easy and when they know we see what they are they look for someone new to lie to so they can become new themselves - and we are left with us - me - myself - the one they pretented to love - so we still are us - and that is good - cause they are now pretending to be someone new because they do not like who they are (evil) (lost) sad sad sad….

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 2:05pm

85. Trinity says:

    Henry, I agree with you about becoming bored and mimicing us. My boyfriend told me he needs constant stimulation and wanted me to provide that for him… he told me I needed to constantly entertain him and it was my job if I wanted to keep the relationship going. No matter how hard I tried it was never enough or he said no to everything… so basically I was a toy. And I seen him change between the time of the break up and when he started contact again. He became nice all the sudden out of nowhere and was taking me out to eat and telling me he missed me and that we should move away together. I was pulled right back in and as soon as he knew I was in and comfortable and thinking everything was going to be ok he changed. He got nasty and started telling me it was all an illusion in my mind and he blamed me for everything and told me I ruined everything. Wait… the reason for the change was: I questioned his motives and he lashed out at me. To make it worse than he started not caring what I seen him do and was making contact with all these girls in front of my face. He got bored again, he chased me, I came back, bored. New game. He mimiced my personality when we first started dating and telling me how we were soulmates and best friends. He changed his appearance and personality but than the real him started to show after a while. I am watching him now changing who he is to mirror someone else and I am horrified. Your right too; they hate who they are and that is why they hate everyone else.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 2:32pm

86. henry says:

    Speaking of the DEVIL LF Gang - I need to talk - He just showed up here 10 minutes ago - after eight months of NC he drives up and knocks on my door and hand me a bill that for some reason went to his address this time. It was a dental bill for my teeth. Last time this happened he put it in the mailbox and mailed to me and marked out HIS address - this time he didnt mark out his address. I took the bill and asked (Is this all you need?) and he said yep and I closed the door and he left. I am hyper ventilating. Not sure how I feel - I did not make eye contact with him - I have mixed emotions - if I had invied him in he would of came in and talked like nothing had happened. He doesnt know after 8 months I still think of him all the time - was sitting there thinking of him when he drove up. I know I have ruffled some feathers here with my post about missing him - but I didnt ask him in - i didnt ask him anything just is that all you need? and he was off - any input is appreciated…..

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 2:42pm

87. Beverly says:

    OMG Henry, I cant believe it!! I bet you cant either. Whatever, you did in haste, you did right, Henry, you kept yourself safe. Dont fan club HIM Henry, we fan club you. Hugs and loving support. I will email you from work this week.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:01pm

88. OxDrover says:

    Dear Henry,

    I am so sorry that he showed up at your door, and obviously, he wanted to see you, wanted you to ask him in, or he would have just mailed the bill back to you instead of bringing it.

    I remember when I accidently ran into my X BF-P at the auction and how I reacted, cause I was suprised. I was angry! and I’m not sure whether I was more angry and scared that he was there or that I reacted like I did and angry at myself for acting that way.

    Henry, I’m not even going to boink you over this one, you acted like I think most of us would have acted, and felt.

    You missing him is not something I would wish on you, but I do understand it, dear Henry, I missed the X-BF-P for quite some time, and I missed “having someone”—so I can relate to how you felt/feel. I am glad that you felt comfortable enough to come here and share it with us, Henry. You know that we care ((((hugs)))))).

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:02pm

89. Beverly says:

    Well Said Oxy. We all care about you Henry.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:04pm

90. Beverly says:

    Henry, I think, you had the ultimate test of NO CONTACT. Stay strong. We are all behind you.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:08pm

91. Beverly says:

    Henry, dearest Henry, you know, how much you feel about him, but you know that you want to be free, you dont want your mind and your life messed around with - like he hurt you so bad. Just keep hanging onto those thoughts.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:13pm

92. Iwonder says:

    Good Job Henry. That’s what happened when I dropped my ex’s TV’s off. He and I had no eye contact..at first. Then when his met mine, I turned away and got in the car and left. It was live 5 seconds of interaction. But it was good because at that very moment, I knew there was nothing left between us. Maybe this will have closure for you.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:13pm

93. henry says:

    thanks Ox and Beverly - I marked out his address with a black marker cause I sont want to retain it in my mind - I didnt invite him in because I have completly redone my house to remove his Karma and I dont want him in here ever again. He didnt ask how I was doing or can we talk or anything of course I did not geive him time it took 20 seconds for me to open the door take the envelope and shut the door,,,8 months ago I told him to leave and never come back - he is not welcome here - is this some kind of test from him? is he up to something? or maybe this is it and he will never come back again…thanks i am OK and I am not wanting him back I know what he is - it would never work - I am lonely but that that loenely…

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:15pm

94. Iwonder says:

    Henry,
    He’s now waiting to see if you call and say something like “I wish we had talked, etc. etc.”

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:21pm

95. bigdude says:

    Henry, you had no idea he was going to do this, so it isnt any fault of yours. I will say this, you seem to showed an amazing strength of character. HE may have knocked on the door because he wanted to test you. You were strong. You have reason to be proud of yourself. I myself am not strong enough right now to do what you did, I know that, but in seeing your strength it helps me know that I will be strong enough one day. Thank you so very much.

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:23pm

96. Beverly says:

    Dear sweet Henry, I think it was a test. But you know what, I am lonely too, but I will never get involved with a toxic lover again - I would rather be on my own, than scrambled!! As an older woman of the old timers club!! - I would say, taking the higher view point, that if you refuse his presence in your life, you will be rewarded with much much better, but you have to show that you are worthy. And you are. ((Hugs))

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:27pm

97. henry says:

    oh I dont know his phone number and he doesnt know mine. Maybe he is just wanting to rub it in that he is still around and ok and (has) an address - maybe he want’s me to pursue him and go look at where he lives - ya know if the guy wanted me back - he should try flowers and resevation’s at DeepFork Grill or get down on his knees and say I miss you can we talk — but I could tell by his demeanor and body language he still thinks he did nothing wrong - and if I had talked too him he would of done that blame shifting crap and gas lighting stuff - He scares me - I will be single forever and I am good with that…

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:28pm

98. Beverly says:

    Henry, Just keep remembering that. Love and lots of hugs

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:28pm

99. henry says:

    thanks Iwonder and Bigdude

    Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:30pm

100. Beverly says:

     You know what Henry, I went out with a friend and she really didnt want to go out, but I persuaded her and I told her, that when I go out with a friend, it is always them that meets someone. Lo and behold, the third night we went out, she met someone and she keeps phoning me up to talk about him and it is so dreary. I suddenly realised, that when I am in a relationship with someone, I get a kind of selfishness, I invest in the relationship and not into other people - and I dont like that, because relationships take all your energy. I realised today, that I am here to grow and contribute to other people. If I meet someone along the way, they will have to support me in that - and that is a very different take than I had a year ago.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:33pm

101. Beverly says:

     Henry, the ex Narcissist, will never revisit me again, he has written me off, and also he ‘knows’ that if he showed his face at my place, I would be putting him in the hot seat and asking him plenty of questions. When I saw him recently, he put his hand over his face. It is easier for him to stay away.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:38pm

102. henry says:

     bev —no one would support me in taking him back - my son’s and few friend’s would be so dissapointed in me — you know Bev I said this once before on here - but if he came back and begged me to take him back - I would ask him to go convince my son’s and grandchildren that you want to be a part of this family, tell them that you love me and want to be with me forever - I know he had me fooled but he doesnt care enough to try to convince them or care enough to fool them - is that a logical way of thot when it comes to a relationship? I am a package deal me my kids and my dogs —

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:40pm

103. Beverly says:

     I hear you Henry, loud and clear. In a sense what you are saying is that the quality and depth you want in a partner, would prove that and fit into your family. Sadly, I think that M is a long long way from that kind of quality. Sorry Henry.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:49pm

104. Indigoblue says:

     Waffleboy

     Never never never entertain that it could change! Think Thank Thunk Thought ! Once we get you outa this perception that you where at fault in any way shape or form ! You will Rise from this thought that you are less than ! Because YOU ARE MORE THAN YOU Imagin! :)~ LOVE jere

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:49pm

105. Beverly says:

     What you experienced tonight Henry, is the sort of feedback I would get from the N. When we split once, he text me saying ‘have you got my black bag??’ - no mention of anything else, complete denial of what he had said to me a week earlier. I knew what he was doing, trying to weazle his way back into my life. Quite frankly henry, I dont need what goes along with that.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 3:52pm

106. Beverly says:

     If you ask me now what kind of relationship I would like, where would I like to live etc etc, I can tell you quite accurately - and this comes from years of experiencing what I DONT WANT. I just keep refining, refining.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:02pm

107. Beverly says:

     Look at it another way, Henry, if you are split into two halves. Your lower self, the part of you that was created from your childhood, and all your early experiences and then, your higher self, the part of you that wants to grow…knows what is best for you. If you feel torn two ways, go the way of the higher self. Bless you Henry.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:09pm

108. Indigoblue says:

     Henry henry henry :)~ If someone Said H E N R Y on the street while your out walking your puppies would you turnaround ????:)~~~~~~~ Love ya BUDDY

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:13pm

109. Indigoblue says:

     GOOD BUY PEOPLE !

     i HAVE GOTTEN MY NOTICE FROM THE HIGHER POWER AND THIS IS MY LAST ENTRY HERE

     YOU REAL PEOPLE DESERVE ME BUT THE REST DO NOT

     HAVE A GREAT LIFE LOVE jere

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:20pm

110. OxDrover says:

     Dear Henry,

     Sweetie, DO YOU SEE WHO YOUR REAL FRIENDS ARE? Just how many people care about you!?! We may never see your faces, but your pain can make us have tears in our eyes because we DO CARE. M can never care and we’ll (you and us) will probably never know what was in his mind that he came by instead of mailing the bill, but I DO KNOW THAT IT WASN’T FOR YOUR BENEFIT and that you can take to the BANK!

     Maybe he just wanted to see how you were doing? See if he could get some feed back or interaction. Maybe he was out of a place to stay or just wanted to keep you for a “safety net” but THE REASON DOESN’T MATTER, the thing the ONLY thing that matters is that though it was painful, you stood STRONG AND TRUE, YOU KEPT YOUR POWER, you kept your self respect.

     A brave man is not the one who is unafraid, a truly BRAVE MAN is one that is “scared shitless” and does the RIGHT THING ANYWAY. Henry, you are so brave, and I want you to know I have TEARS OF JOY in my eyes right now, at just how brave and strong you were today. If I could reach my arms out across the miles I would hold you and tell you just how much I admire you for your strength and bravery, but this is the best I can do so ((((((big cyber hug)))))) LOVE OXY

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:37pm

111. Iwonder says:

     Is Indigo for real?

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:44pm

112. Beverly says:

     Dear IWonder. We have had - and do have - many different types of people posting on this site.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:51pm

113. Beverly says:

     coming from many different points of view.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:53pm

114. henry says:

     thanks every body - I just need to get this bill paid - it is the only thing that tie’s me too him at all - I dont understand why they sent it to him - I am current on payments - the original acct. is in my name…I think it was intimidation on his part - he drove up in the truck I paid for - when I think of all I did for him and he can’t even pay a 25.00 payment —- he makes as much money as I do now. anyway I am not a mess over this just kinda shocked….I spend so much time thinking about him - then he show’s up and I close the door on him—that hurt’s — does not make sense—but I know (IT) was a toxic relationship and I am better off with out the stress and drama - the asshole threw is mcdonald’s trash out in my drive way can u believe that!!!!~~~~~ Jere gonna miss ya bud

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 4:57pm

115. Beverly says:

     That tells you everything Henry, the devil is in the detail - I cant stand litter louts!! Thats it, you are collecting your thoughts and you will deal with the bill. I know you felt alot for him, but you are way better and maybe when you have fathomed that one out, you will have unravelled the puzzle of why such a strong connection with him hit you so hard. For me, I thought the ex was the only person - but it was all an illusion Henry. A pretense. End.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:05pm

116. Beverly says:

     I never wanted to introduce him to my friends, I was ashamed that they would notice that he was not on my level. when I first introduced him to my daughter…I said…’what do you think?’ and she said… you could do alot better. I think my upbringing, Henry, made me feel not very worthy. Is that the same for you?.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:08pm

117. OxDrover says:

     Dear Henry!

     ROTFLMAO, THREW HIS TRASH IN YOUR DRIVE!!! OH, WOW!! That is the lowest! Brings you the bill for his teeth that he could pay if he would, and then throws his trash in your drive as he speeds off in the truck that YOU paid for. WOW!

     I realize that throwing out his trash is not the worst thing he did to you, but you know, that is SOME NERVE! It is funny (odd) but sometimes crap like that makes me want to be homocidal! I swear! LOL WHAT A JERK! May the fleas of a 1000 camels inhabit his arm pits! LOL Hey, M, BOINK!!!!! BOINK!!!! Sound of his skull cracking! His eyes crossing! as he goes down for the count!

     News at 6:

     Skillet wielding Old lady lays out Jerk with 20 pound cast iron skillet, he will survive but have crossed eyes forever. Physicians noticed that the man had more fleas than 1000 camels. The DA has prosecuted the victim for malicious trashing. Old lady receceives key to the city of Oz, and “citizen of the year” award!

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:09pm

118. Iwonder says:

     Henry,
     That’s so comical about the garbage. But I bet you’re burned about the truck. He’s nothing more than a bad memory now. You’ll sleep in peace.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:09pm

119. henry says:

     we call them litter bugs here Bev and He learned early on that pissed me off when he would throw something out of the window of the vehicle - we had a few discussions about that -he is so disrespectfull.. but ya know _ i could feel that same uneasyness in him - that feeling of him being mad and not happy - he has not changed a bit

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:10pm

120. Beverly says:

     Yea, we call them litter bugs too - a downright disrespect of the environment and the people who have to pick it up. He does not share your morals and your values Henry, that is clear, so what is the electricity between you? Crack that and you break the hold.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:15pm

121. henry says:

     bev about your comment of our childhoods yes it all goes back to that doesnt it? I was listening to a talk radio program last nite about abortion - this guy was saying he was in his 30’s and he was aborted - was never given love - was locked up in a room most of his childhood - lot’s of people walking around today were aborted by their parent’s - make any sense?

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:16pm

122. Beverly says:

     If I mirror that question back to myself…I ask myself what was so appealing? I always said that I admire good decent honest virtues, doesnt matter what background. He pretended to have good virtues. I said I liked reliability and honesty, and good personal integrity, he demonstrated that…to start with. But as I watched him, I saw that it was all a front. He was just using me and when I asked him key questions like, what do you think of women, he said …’all women are manipulative’. I then began to see a more sinister side of him.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:21pm

123. henry says:

     I dunno what the electricity is Bev - i feel like I loved him - and he would tell me 20 times a day he loved me but his word’s never showed it - his action’s were the opposite of love - maybe I was too needy of him - or him of me - when trust and respect is lost what else is there?

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:21pm

124. henry says:

     oxy u crack me up thanks for the giggle

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:23pm

125. Beverly says:

     Yea, makes perfect sense. I have a book about receiving love and it says that if you didnt receive love in early childhood, then particular ‘knowing’ pathways in the brain do not get formed properly. Therefore, one can ‘know’ what love is on one level, but the real experience of a deeper knowing is not quite there - does that make sense. So people like us have a different experience, we are good at giving love, but not so good at receiving and thus we attract people who take.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:23pm

126. henry says:

     this subject could get deep - one time M said ( you just can’t believe anybody would love you) — well maybe he did in his way - but love had little too do with the relationship - I lost respect for him and trust - sometimes like aloha i get to thinking maybe I was wrong - but then I step back and remember all the ways he used me, disrespected me and would use that pity crap he was so good at - it was manipulation - i am me and I am a good person - this I know - if I can’t be loved for REAL then I got to let ya go - dont use me - I have had enuff of that and I gots lots of real people that love me for real

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:33pm

127. Beverly says:

     I have a song which goes on to describe..like a cloud ushered in by wind, youre just a reaction to my confusion…a hybrid of hundreds of troubles, people felt us connect and ran for shelter. I think this song aptly describes that electricity.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:34pm

128. Beverly says:

     Healthy love IS respectful and nurturing and wants the best for you. Period.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:36pm

129. henry says:

     bev now that is a deep fricken song reaction to my confusion? scarey and yeah whe mike and i would connect people did run for shelter got a chuckle and goose bumps out that Bev

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:39pm

130. Beverly says:

     Thought you might Henry. ((hugs))

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 5:40pm

131. Beverly says:

     Im off, got work in the morning. Nite everyone.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 6:06pm

132. OxDrover says:

     Henry, I’m glad I made you chuckle, it’s hard to be sad or down when you laugh! I think I missed my “calling” sometimes and should have been a stand up comic. Oh, the funniest thing happened yesterday.

     My parrot Oliver started talking in my husband’s voice a few months ago when I hung up a facial shot of my husband where the bird could see it. The bird knows a couple of “bad words” that he speaks seldom, but always in CONTEXT, it is like he knows they are “bad words” and reserves them for special times. He called my son D an A$$hole in my husband’s voice about a week after my husband died, haven’t heard him use that word since. But he does say other things in my husband’s voice and call’s husband’s name. yesterday I was cleaning his cage and he was bothering me so I kept shooing him away with the tool I was scrapingwith and guess what he called me, in my husband’s voice! Yep!

     My son and I had a good laugh about it, and joked that my late husband was “channeling ” through the bird~! I have a dog that BITES HIS NAILS and a bird that is a medium! No one will EVER accuse me of being “normal” LOL

     Nite, Bevie! Sleep well!

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 6:28pm

133. pearl says:

     henry–you said the bill was for your teeth. But someone wrote that it was for his teeth. If it is for his teeth maybe the dentist will reduce the bill or even write off the remainder due on the account if you talk to the Accounting person and tell them some of the facts. My x stuck me (and himself) with lots of medical bills for one of our sons by lying to me about the date his insurance coverage for the boys terminated. I’m working with all the health providers and got some of them reduced.

     if the bill is for you, consider calling the acounting office and confirming your address and have his name and address removed from their files. Tell them it is vital that they correct their records.

     I remember you said x was Cluster B–if he has antisocial disorder, then maybe his fear of being dominated let him to try to dominate others by leaving the trash, etc. Borderline disorders have an unconscious fear of being abanoned, so maybe this was his way of trying to stay connected to someone. who knows? anyway, his behavior is coming from his disorder, so our analysis from our “normal” point of view won’t apply.

     You handled the situation great! If you had invited him in, he would have acted like the disordered person that he is. Remember, he cannot have a “normal” or “regular” relationship because of his disorder/s. We can’t fix them, even tho we sure tried.

     If only we had been taught that we can’t “fix” others; I’m guessing that you, like me, were taught (even if indirectly by our parents) to help others, to rescue them and to fix them, which is actually impossible.

     He can get help from the appropriate sources the minute he truly asks for it. but we are not the appropriate source.

     Okay, I’m rattling on too long. You did great!!!

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 9:05pm

134. henry says:

     pearl- when my x was here I paid to get his teeth fixed - dentures -was about 3 thousand bucks - I (we) got that paid off - then I had some dental work that I put on a dental plan that was in both names - and for some reason they occasionally send him the bill -I called them and explained and asked to get his name off the account but they said no - and I was the main applicant -anyway I will call them again tomorrow and I will try my best to get this paid off asap…hope I didnt confuse you even more. My x was abandoned by both parents at age 2 and was raised by a hyper christian grandmother that disowned him when he (came out) too her. I tried to rescue him and be the family and love he never had and it about killed me. In retrospect this afternoon - I wish I had just thanked him for bringing the bill by and gave him a hug and sent him on his way - but I get anxious when he is around - I remember all the past drama and trauma and lie’s and how many times did I take him back? 5 five times in 3 years - one of us is messed up for sure and I do not want to hurt anymore and I do not want to hurt him - i just want his memory to fade into something very distant and past tense.

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:27pm

135. OxDrover says:

     Dear Henry,

     I think a hug would have been something you regreted, I think you did it perfectly as it was. Don’t try to second guess yourself post-event. I’m proud of how you handled it.

     You were great and brave!!! Save your hugs for me!!!! (((hugs)))))

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:38pm

136. henry says:

     oxy smoxy i got a big ole hug waitin for you -

     Sunday, 9 November 2008 @ 10:42pm

137. Stargazer says:

     So if you came from one of these families that did not love you, and your brain didn’t develop the proper pathways to accept love, then how to you build those pathways?

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 12:04am

138. Wini says:

     StarG: Everything that anyone is so-called “lacking” in themselves can be found by reading wisdom from the Bible.

     Anything that man needs to know about, comes from wisdom learned by reading the Bible.

     Look at how it really is. God created us and he created us perfectly, every single one of us.

     Man breaks down man. Not God.

     Need to develop compassion? Read the Bible.

     Need to develop patience? Read the Bible.

     Need to feel loved and appreciated? Read the Bible.

     Need to find your foundation in life? Read the Bible.

     Want to know why there are children born with horrific cancers, blood diseases, deformities, down syndrome, handicapped, mentally disabled etc, etc, into our world world? That’s so easy to explain. It is so humans can learn about unconditional love.

     Anything a human needs or wants to learn is through wisdom obtained by reading the Bible.

     What is the Bible. The word of God. It is our guidebook for living while down on Earth.

     He didn’t send us down here to go solo.

     Peace.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 4:05am

139. Indigoblue says:

     Like the Owners manual for your phone ! I know you read the whole thing before you turned on your new Phone! RIGHT ?

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 6:40am

140. Indigoblue says:

     Henry If you had done that you would have stepped backwards who knows how far?:) LOVE YOU MAN jere

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 6:43am

141. Wini says:

     StarG: This is how I look at our EXs and I do believe they can be retrained to learn about all God’s virtues. They can be made whole again and to feel again. They just can’t do it on their own, that’s the problem. It has to be taught to them in a safe, structured, loving, compassionate environment.

     They can be taught that it’s OK to live virtuously, to experience it, to incorporate it in their lives and to be made a whole, feeling, caring person again. Yes, a feeling, caring, loving person who positively functions again in society.

     But, and there is always a but, they can NOT do this on their own due to their fears, insecurities, arrogance and control that they have acquired over their lifetimes to guard their very existence (survival techniques). This is how they survived in life and they aren’t willing to give it up without a fight to hold on to the ONLY tools they know and need to survive. They are comfortable with their way of life and see no reason to change. Perception. Remember we talked about people’s perceptions in life. Well our EXs have their perceptions about how to live life too.

     It’s sort of like, patient, heal thyrself … conduct your own surgery? Without the knowledge and the tools to be a surgeon?

     They have to be guided by compassionate, loving, caring individuals who have acquired the patience of Job, who can stand back objectively, view the overall picture , not pulled into the myopic control techniques of their patient. They have to know before taking on this overhaul of healing that they will be manipulated, bullied, lied to, conned, deceived, played and toyed with, purposely projected towards a dead end road (another form of manipulation and control) … all the games that arrogant, manipulative, intelligent personalities naturally have learned to play to obtain power and control of others for their own survival.

     Our EXs, as well as other anti-social personalities, are fearful to face their own insecurities, frailties, any and all human flaws that exists within each and every one of us.

     As we grew and stretched ourselves throughout our lives, we learned to face our fears. We learned to work through these fears to see the big picture of the fear and when we came to an understanding, we were then able to move forward with our lives by either building up from those fears or deciding to leave them behind because we naturally outgrew them.

     Our EXs never analyzed their own fears and insecurities. Therefore, they never worked through them and resolved them … to accept them or release them. They believe, truly believe that they don’t care or feel, therefore, they pretend to ignore those feelings. But, those fears and insecurities reside inside them as they live their lives. They carry these fears and insecurities deep down inside them everywhere they go. They never resolved said fears and insecurities. They never work through said fears and insecurities. They never comprehend and work out said fears and insecurities. Hence, they never grow or rid themselves of said fears and insecurities (talk about carrying your baggage around with you???). In reality, they are running, always running from themselves as they live life and nothing gets resolved.

     This is why arrogance and control are the first tools they acquire to learn how to succeed in their world. Next comes lying and all the rest of the negative vices in life.

     Due to their intellect, their cunning, their need for control and their arrogance, they refuse to accept that they are flawed human beings … and they will not slow down, go silent, become humble on their own. They can’t. They are afraid to look inside themselves and so they keep on moving … always moving from place to place. That’s why they project the arrogant persona … that they have to look down on us mere mortals. They are better than us, so they believe this and by believing it, they live it

     That’s why our prisons were originally constructed. Inprison the trouble makers of society. Take them away from law-abiding citizens who understand that we should live in harmony among each other. To ensure that chaos does not rule supreme. (look what is happening in our world today).

     So, they were incarcerated, given the Bible to read on their own, expected to humble themselves on their own (which is the problem of their fear to relinquish this power and control that has always allowed them to survive, hence, the ego continues to rule over them and they refuse to go humble out of fear, giving up the only way they knew how to live … they obviously don’t trust any one or authority figures to allow themselves to let their guard down).

     We need to break down their walls that surround each of them. Break them down to their very core of who they are. Then systematically rebuild them from rock bottom back up, so they too can heal themselves (with the help of professionals) to become better, stronger and healthier than they were before their egos took them down the vice path of life.

     Peace.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:11am

142. Indigoblue says:

     CAn I hear an Amen Sister mary you go girl go right ahead and Dance Halieluyah!

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:31am

143. Wini says:

     Indi: Good morning. You’ve got mail.

     Peace.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:41am

144. jules says:

     thanks for the coments. yes mine too when he broke up with his las girlfriend, he contacted me bing as nce as pie so you hink thy turnng a new leaf, then when i start making small coments like do you want to speend time with me ? HE backs off and sstarts to act his usua distant nasty self like dont let me think anything is going back to the way we were, also getting arguementative, are they all likethis? also when i say things like i want more than just sex its not enough for me ect ect he just looks at me and says iknow whatever i tell him about my feelings he says i know , what is that suposed to mean, if you say i know then go onto say something else constructive not just i know. hes like a robot. im sure he has at least another girl on the side for sex and probably more. why would i want to share myself with that….. someone said they seem angry they do dont they.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 8:46am

145. bigdude says:

     Jules, I really hope that mine does contact me sometime in the future, just not too damn soon though. I know exactly what I want to say to her. I anot going to let her talk if she calls me, I will simply say my piece and then hang up on her. I will not wish any evil on her, I will not wish her any harm, I dont need to, she will bring all that down upon herself anyway. But, when I hang up on her hopefully my words will reverbarate in her ears for as long as possible (probably about 10 seconds with her attention span). I will not be rude, I will not take cheap shots (though, the temptaion is almost overpowering) I will simply state how I feel about her and that there is no room anywher in my life for people like her. I am reserving my life for people who care about others, who are honest, and who do not behave like a 4 year old throwing a temper tantrum. Because of a past business venture we had been planning (oh yeah, and guess who was going have to come up with the money for THAT one? yep, me.) I need certain letters and forms from her. Has she sent them? No. Will she ever? No, probably not. So even still she is able to hurt me, without lifting a finger. And will I ever do anything to her? No, not worth it, I am trying to make myself better than I was before, and thats not the kind of thing I want in me.
     These people are just plain out of it. Nothing matters to them except themselves. and yes, they are very very angry inside. And so they take it out on us.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 12:23pm

146. henry says:

     I was sure my X would never show up here again. I kinda wanted him too, but 8 long months and not a sign. Then the only way he could get to me is using the joint acct. for dental care that I opened in my name with his name on the acct. so we could get dental work done. I paid off his part before he left. The rest is mine. And I have been making payments.Well I called the credit co. and asked why the address had been changed to his? Well the asshole called last month and had it changed to his and now for some reason he is primary acct. holder? I tried to explain to the nice lady on the phone what was going on but all I got was a I am sorry. She did change the billing address back to mine and there is no available credit on acct. so I dont worry about him running up the bill. But he did this to have a reason to come to my home. Well all he got was a slammed door in his face. If he wanted to win me back why didnt he try flower? a box of candy? a card? Why mess with my acct? This just confirms too me he is a spath and seeking control and it is a form of harrasment. Oxy you won the farm cause you said he would come back and I told you nope he won’t. He was arrogant and his usual hateful self. I am tempted to get VPO served but I think I am over reacting. Wonder what he will do when I get the bill paid off? He doesn’t want me he just want’s too have power over me….he doesn’t know this or care but this just ended any affection or desire I had to be with him. So it was a good thing for me and bad thing for him - the creep……..

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 12:54pm

147. henry says:

     BigDude I had my speech all ready for the day he showed up - but I realized it would be a waste of my time. No Contact is the ONLY power we have. Living a good life is the only revenge. Telling them what we think and how they hurt us gives them the rush they need to get off…… silence is golden……it is the best way we have of letting them know they are not worth pissing on if the were on fire….

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 1:09pm

148. bigdude says:

     Henry, I agree with you. And I thought about that today. I have been left devastated, almost broke (but thats actully improing fairly well now), totaly destroyed, and I almost died. And yet, even as I am right now I am still a better man than she deserved. And whatsmore even now, I am a better man than will EVER deserve. I am going to live well, no matter what she does with her life. You see, I have met somebody else, ME! And damn it, I am going to work on me. And she will NEVER know it. There is a sense of satisfaction in that. As long as she doesnt contact me she will never know how well I am doing.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 3:03pm

149. Wini says:

     Dear Henry and BigDude: Congratulations to both of you. I’m so happy to read you two are healing so well.

     Keep up that freedom …

     Peace.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 3:15pm

150. bigdude says:

     Well wini, its party due to you and others like you on here that I am even CLOSE to starting to heal. When I felt so alone in the world, when I thought there was no healing from this, I found this site. And the people on it. And then I knew i wasnt alone. I only hope that I give as much as I have received.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 3:43pm

151. Wini says:

     BigDude: It does make a difference knowing others have gone through horrific experiences and survived.

     I feel for those folks that didn’t have computers, the Internet and of course LF to help them in their time of need.

     You have already contributed and I’m sure you will continue to do so … this site can be addictive (I mean that in a positive way Donna, if you’re reading).

     Peace.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 3:52pm

152. Iwonder says:

     Hi Henry,
     After that stunt yesterday, I’m wondering if the jerk is going to show up again. There had to have been a motive. He could have mailed that bill to you. You think he just happened to be in the neighborhood?? Doubt it.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 6:30pm

153. henry says:

     IWONDER - He had the address changed on the acct.. last oct.23 and then when he got the bill he brought it to me. It was planned….I guess he needed an excuse too come here..He is up too something..Intimadation I think….but this has erased any romantic feelings I had - this proves with out a doubt he is weird (as if I needed more proof) duh~~!! Now I know he does have a very dark side and this is harrasment in my book.. Well I will just get the bill paid off - have a plan to get that done in two months. Maybe he won’t change the address again as he didnt get a reaction out of me this time -just a door slamed in his face - I dunno maybe that turned him on who knows—–BIGDUDE - live a good life and (IF) you ever see the beeitch again be the confident happy man you are and that will hurt her more than anything….

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 6:52pm

154. Iwonder says:

     Henry, He could have put the bill in an envelope and mailed it to you. I think he was looking for a reaction. I’m laughing so hard. I wish I could have seen you slam the door in his face. It must have felt wonderful…spectacular!

     You should have seen my ex’s face when I dropped those tv’s off right at his girlfriend’s house. Here was this used-to-be strong aggressive man actually studdering to find a few useless words looking up at the sky while babbling some BS about how sorry he was he couldn’t get the things sooner but the company van broke down. I said “shame” and turned my back, got into the car and left. That was all I said…”shame.” He is a shame.

     I remember you wrote once how worried you were about how you would feel if you ever ran into him again. Now you know.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:06pm

155. Indigoblue says:

     Henry

     Sure he had a plan !

     He should have paid the Bill! but no! he has to hand deliver it so you are face to face ! And YOU DID IT ! Hurray! I bet he thought you would crumble and cave in BUT NOPE ! Not Henry!

     Henry can you Email me so me gas at 1.89 gal I need 16 gal and can I get my teeth done and I need a credit card with my name on it ! just your acct. I LOVE you buddy jere

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:19pm

156. henry says:

     yep now I know - he is a dark - evil - thing -that I had the misfortune to get in his path - he wont get a reaction out of me - at least not the one he want’s - I am done - over it …..he is a criminal in my books a con artist — hope he get’s the crab’s……

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:21pm

157. henry says:

     indigoblue - don’t rub it in - it was not all a free ride for him - he did give me money - I will give you Mike but not a credit card

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:26pm

158. OxDrover says:

     Dear Henry,

     Hey, babe, have I EVER BEEN WRONG? Am I not ALWAYS right, and smart and know it all? Of course I do!@ LOL

     All you have to do is look in the Psychopath’s play book, page 104, line 25, and it says “get bill changed to your address so you can hand deliver it to his/her address as an excuse to go see them”

     NC is the ultimate punishment for them, really. I wish you guys could have read the letters and know the lengths my P-son went to to try to get someone in the family to answer his letters and “let him explain”—after the Trojan Horse’s and his plot to kill me went south! What a hoot! He just did NOT get it that we wouldn’t give him a chance to “fix” things. He has spent his entire adult life in Prison and yet he thinks that HE is the perfect person to run the family, tell us what to do and how to do it, and make all the decisions in his “infinate wisdom”—being in prison has, after all, given him the insight and experience to be the family “boss.” LOL ROTFLMAO Whew, had to get my breath there, laughing too hard. And the thing is, HE BELIEVES THAT! Talk about arrogance.

     Henry, they think they are SOOOO smart, Sooooo cool, and that you are an idiot child that doesn’t have the sense God gave a goose (not much)!

     I am really, glad that Mike did come over, and that he was stupid enough to think he could change the address and you couldn’t figure it out (you are, according to him, stupid and he is soooo smart) Well, just for his information, you are not as dumb as he thinks! ha ha At least NOW YOU KNOW HOW YOU WILL REACT! No more worry or wondering about how you will react. Now you know! You passed that test with FLYING COLORS HENRY! What a piece of chit he is!

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 7:52pm

159. Iwonder says:

     Hi Oxy: I don’t know why sociopaths lie and think they’ll never be found out that they are liars. The truth always comes out in the end. Why don’t they get that it’s really not worth lying because they get found out anyway. Also, God knows. You can’t hide from Him. You can lie your arse off to people who you think are easily fooled and take advantage of their money, hearts and souls, but you can’t fool God. Who do they think they’re kidding? They don’t play by the rules because of Greed, Lust, etc. but look where it leads: To prison, to unhappiness, to loneliness. They are the stupid ones.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 8:08pm

160. henry says:

     I promise this is the last on this subject. But the more I think of it the more I know what he was up too. It was intimadation..he is pissed that I kicked him out - he is pissed that I changed my phone number’s - he is pissed the guy he has been with since me has kicked him out - he is pissed that I am not trying to find him - he made sure I saw his address - he can’t use pity anymore - so it was intimidation - his demeanor was like he was ready too fight - now tell me if I am wrong but if he can’t love me then he is going to intimadate and harrass me? - so I think this is the end cause he did not get the reaction he wanted but if he comes here one more time - I can get a vpo served on him

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 8:30pm

161. Iwonder says:

     Henry:
     How did you find out the guy he’s been with since he left you kicked him out?

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 8:32pm

162. henry says:

     I ran into an aquaintence that told me he is on his second guy since me…the same guy that claims to have warned me about him - but he warned me after Mike had his hook’s in. A reliable source I think - but hell maybe it was lie too - you know how those queen’s are…….

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 9:00pm

163. psycheintact says:

     I decided to have a casual date with my ex-P approximately 6 months after I kicked his sad, sorry ass to the curb! In hindsight, I believe this was a profoundly masochist risk which actually served as a very positive reality check for me. I would not however advise this.

     My “P” was grandiose, lacked empathy, saw himself as superior & self-righteous, had more of a need to be right than a need to relate, was a pathological liar, major manipulator, etc. Think Peter Pan crossed with Ted Bundy. My P was not physically abusive, nor did he swindle me out of large chunks of change. He alternated between the roles of Incompetant Child and Psychological/Emotional Predator whose grandiosity was not commensurate with his actual achievements.

     During our date, I listed to him talk non-stop about himself for 3.5 hours. The only time he initiated any interest in me or my life was to ask “How are things on (business address)?” How’s that for a capacity for intimacy? Then en-route to a dinner/move, he began haranging his sister for putting her son on a psychotropic drug when “there is absolutely no evidence that these drugs work.” (I am a psychologist…)
     At that point, I began to think I had had enough. When he asked about dinner and said he was starving, I told him I was quite full and had had enough! I then set limits about him taking me back home and I would not discuss it, given that he had violated the limits around the date about his behavior. When he continued to harang me, I told him I would not tolerate the disrespect, and got out of the car. I would have walked home, hitchhiked, called a cab, but ultimately ended up taking a bus! I did not care — just wanted to send him a message about my urgent desperation to get away from him.

     Now, he never called to see if I had made it home OK. I did receive a email several days after the fact, and I just said “You don’t get it…..” with the same logical fallicies he would use with me “straw man argument, etc.” I also found a loud “WHAT” with no elaboration to be effective.

     Yes, I too suffered from the Fantasy/Delusion that he could and would get it, apologize, own his behavior and then want to change. NOT! Once a P, always a P. I need to stop projecting the fantasy of normalcy onto this morally corrupt, bankrupt stranger.

     What is most disturbing/interesting about this dude is his professed Christianity and allegiance to God. It amazes me that he can manipulate the Word to God to justify and rationalize ongoing bad behavior: “we’re all sinners.” Unbelieveable. Even though I do not consider myself a Christian, I do have Christian values and I am convinced that if there were an MMPI or Millon measuring Satanopathy, my ex would be off the charts? How about the rest of you? Ever thought of your P as Luciferous or the Devil Incarnate?

     Last thought….I wonder who I went on the date as. I was wearing a wig………………….hmmmmm??????

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 9:54pm

164. Iwonder says:

     OK Psych: Your post will reinforce the fact should i ever ever think of hooking up with the ex again, nothing will change.
     You should read my past posts about Christianity. Mine is a master. Even the devil can quote scripture. He stays up late and watches the Trinity Broadcasting Network. He used the Bible to demean me. Told me I shouldn’t cut my hair because it’s a woman’s veil. He would get crazy anytime I would go to the salon. He said it’s in the Bible that the woman is to submit to man. He used that one to dominate, control, abuse me sexually, physically & emotionally. He constantly walked out of the house arguing about my clothes. I dress fairly conservatively but he would say it is in the Bible that if a man looks at a woman with lust he’s committed a sin. So, he didn’t want me to wear makeup or nice clothes to attract any attention. Now that is evil. Funny. I refer to him as the Devil Incarnate.

     You are a psychologist. In your profession you must meet all kinds. I do believe in God and do believe Satan does exist. I’m not kidding when I tell you I feel my ex is the devil himself or is possessed by demons. The Bible speaks of Jesus casting out demons in mentally ill people. There has to be a link. It can’t all be due sociopaths having different brain matter. I’m so stumped.

     I’ve seen my ex go off into a stare like within his own my thinking about something. Then he’d turn his head toward me and ask bizarre questions. Like one day we were taking a road trip to Niagra Falls. In the car he had one of those episodes. He turned to me and out of the blue said, “are you the kind of woman who turns her head to see if a guy is looking at her??” I said, “what??” I had no clue where that came from. I looked at him like he was nuts and said “what are you talking about.” He wouldn’t let up. He went on, “NO! Really. I WANT TO KNOW! Is that the kind of woman you are?”" Mind you, we’d been together for 1 1/2 years by then. There were many of these episodes. Sometimes we’d be sleeping in bed and he’d spring up and ask something bizarre that ensued into a fight. Possessed I tell you. He didn’t look himself when this happened. It didn’t even seem like it was him speaking. Scarey.

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 10:23pm

165. henry says:

     yes!!! he was evil - when he slept he looked abnormal like a tortured demon - I can remember hiding my wallet - checkbook - I slept with a gun many nites - I felt the Evil - i could see it in his charles manson eyes - he cast a spell on me,….

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 10:36pm

166. Indigoblue says:

     Henry
     I would go ahead and get it prepared and If He shows have it sitting right there at the door! I had an injuction! an Emergency Injunction Granted and only after it was given to the sherifs off. was I taken seriously both the sherifs off. and the city police had shown up at my place but I was in jail because I had to leave my own place because he was getting mail at my address?? He had been there long enough and they would’nt help me till they where ordered to do so! I am sure this is why he left because the cops did a search of my place to see if he had killed me and was still hanging out because he had no other place to go ! I had shut the power off and the water and removed all food and paper products ! he had to use a tee shirt to whipe his you know what . I had spiked the food I left in the frig with mineral oil but since there was no power he did not get my treat for him! he fled to the next county and they would’nt find him ! They just don’t have time for these domestic violence cases and thats why they skate the law and people get killed! The sherifs office was trying to serve the Injunction but once he left they quit looking all he had to do was not answer the door!

     Henry I don’t think he wants to bother with you because you already showed that you were’nt putting up w/any more of his shit! He might come back but only to see if you might cave again and only if he has no other alternative! LOVE YOU BUDDY! If ever you want to get away for a while you are allways welcome here in Orlando! I know you will like the fire and the cookouts and the woods and the Springs! I hope you like to swim we can Usually swim untill Christmass here ! Dont worry about Him he is only trying to survive and you showed Him He needs to look for a New Daddy! You are Strong now and Determined not to step backwards even one step ! The Fire is going in the back yard and I have a sleeper sofa and a king size bed But I do Snore:)~ Peace My Bud!

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 10:50pm

167. henry says:

     That’s the big problem with domestic violence. Several time’s I came close to calling the police but I knew we would both be thrown in jail. Specially here in oklahomophobia….and he would of taken a brick and smashed his face in to make me look like the guilty one… He is a con artist - a great actor. Fortunatly enough people know of his action’s that if I had to have a witness I know several that would be in line. But Jere I agree with you - I think this was his last attempt. Showing them no emotion at all is what stop’s them. He would of loved for me to have confronted him. He would of taken it as a threat and P’s don’t like threat’s. So I did what one of the other blogger’s did (who was it?) I looked at him like a potted plant and shut the door. I have wanted too see him - I have even hoped for it - not sure what it was that I wanted from him - but now I know why - he doesn’t realize it but when he showed up with that dental bill - HE brought closure for me - yes presseject and jen and oxy - I have closure I can feel it in my bone’s - jere thanks for the invite - I mite just take you up on that some day I have never been to florida -thanks Jere

     Monday, 10 November 2008 @ 11:38pm

168. Wini says:

     Now Rhett, I mean Henry: Frankly, Scarlette, I mean EX, I don’t give a … BLANK.

     Good for you … life is their stage…. and we, their captive audience!

     Peace.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 4:27am

169. Wini says:

     I wonder if that’s why I was always making microwave popcorn at work? … having a feeling I was in a movie all day, and all the actors/actresses around me … pushing and shoving to be center stage!

     Peace.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 4:30am

170. henry says:

     were you scarlett or miss pitty pat?

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 4:33am

171. henry says:

     BOO you are up late WINI

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 4:33am

172. Wini says:

     Henry: The kittens are having a field day … running around the house, playing, playing, playing.

     Then came the big CRASH … and I was cleaning up the broken glass from one of my vases they broke.

     Don’t want any little furry paws stepping on broken glass.

     Peace.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 5:04am

173. Wini says:

     Henry, I chose Melanie.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 5:06am

174. Jen2008 says:

     Psyceintact said: “When he continued to harang me, I told him I would not tolerate the disrespect, and got out of the car. I would have walked home, hitchhiked, called a cab, but ultimately ended up taking a bus!….How about the rest of you? Ever thought of your P as Luciferous or the Devil Incarnate?”

     Mine left me in a bar one night about 25 miles from where we lived, making a nasty scene involving half the bar when doing it–including loudly proclaiming that I was a lesbian and only wanted to stay because I wanted to f*** this woman (whom I didn’t even know and hadn’t even spoke a single word to). The woman about died, and so did I. No bus system, 3 bucks to my name as I had loaned him all the other money I had earlier in the day when we were out and about. No family, friends in the area, or anyone I knew well enough to call at that hour to come get me and I did not know a single person in the bar. Nor did I have any keys to even get in the house if I made it home. The reason:: He wanted to leave and go to another bar, but someone told him he had drank too much to even DRIVE and I wanted him to stop drinking and sober up before driving a motorcyle, and so did the rest of the bar, including the bartender who all told him he was too drunk to drive. His stance forever more never changed that “I” had disrepected HIM and humiliated him by refusing to ride on the bike and because of it I “deserved” to be left in another town with no way home. I could never get him to understand my position, nor could he understand why i was even upset that he bellowed out in a room full of people that I was a lesbian. Per him, it was all MY fault and I deserved it. Actually that was one of the “nicer” bad things he did to me before it was all over.

     So yeah, I definitely think my ex was a disciple of Lucifer or he maybe even be Lucifer himself.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 6:17am

175. Wini says:

     Jen2008: You just reminded me of an incident that happened on beautiful sunny summer day. My sister and her boyfriend made plans with my husband an I to go aboard his boss’s yacht.

     We were suppose to be at the dock at a certain sail off time.

     Well, my husband dragged his butt all morning … the rest of us were ready to go … but had to wait for him, finish up whatever he was doing.

     Long story short … we finally get down to the dock … and the yacht sailed off … hey,we were only an hour late (go figure?)…

     We decided to enjoy our day at the beach, because we were already down there. My husband and I in our car, following my sister and her boyfriend in her car.

     My husband decides he’s going to blame me for being late. I, on the other hand was not going to accept his blame … and of course, we had an exchange of words … next thing I know, I’m out of the car … and my husband takes off.

     Of course, my sister and her boyfriend, turn their car around and come and pick me up. My sister of course, makes us wait for over a half hour for my husband to cool off and return to where he left me in the road.

     I, of course kept saying, it’s a beautiful day for the beach, let’s go, we are wasting sunshine here folks.

     No, no, no .. my sister makes me wait for my husband to drive back.

     So we wasted at least another 45 minutes … he didn’t show … we went to the beach.

     We spent the day soaking up the sun, swimming, body surfing in the waves, got a bite to eat … and at the end of the day … they drove me home.

     When we drove into the driveway … my husband painted a huge sign and left it on the front porch … the sign was about 8 ft long by 5 ft high which read … MY WIFE IS A BITCH!

     Talk about getting your point across.

     All 3 of us went into the house, where my husband was sitting in his favorite chair at the dinning room table.

     He ranted and raved about how he cooled off, went back to where he dropped me off … we weren’t there … he then went down the street to the beach and couldn’t find us … blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

     I didn’t buy any of that. Why? My sister’s boyfriends care was that awful ugly loud blue ‘Italian Blue” … we parked it at the end of the parking lot to the beach … you couldn’t miss it … it stuck out like a sore thumb … we then sat right at the beginning of the entrance to the beach … anyone walking onto the beach that day, couldn’t miss us …

     It all comes down to theatrics … and I was not going to have any of it.

     P.S. The sign stayed up for over a week until the nuns that lived next door to us … asked if they could have the wood for their soup kitchen in town … it was the right size to fix a whole in the floor.

     Peace.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 6:38am

176. Jen2008 says:

     You know, it’s too bad all those people that he was always turning on the charm for and were always telling me how “sweet” and “thoughtful” he was couldn’t have been at that bar that night.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 6:40am

177. Jen2008 says:

     Oh well, Wini, at least you got to spend a nice day at the beach and the nuns got to have a “My Wife is a Bitch” sign–lol lol lol— to repair their floor. I have to ask, what was the nuns reaction to the sign?

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 6:51am

178. Wini says:

     Jen2008: Four nuns lived next door to us. I never saw them in their habits, until a cardinal died and they all came in their best to show respect for the man … his funeral was held in the church directly across the street from us.

     They wore jeans and T-shirts every day … looked like everyone else.

     They never made judgments on anyone … just showed you love all the time.

     I remember a week after we married. I was taking a bubble bath in our old cast iron ball and claw bath tub. I was thoroughly enjoying my bubble bath. My husband came into the bathroom, chatting with me for over an hour .. sitting in the chair in the room. He could see the nuns in the garden planting their seeds for their vegetable garden (remember, I told you they worked the soup kitchen … home made soups, right from their garden at the end of the season).

     All of a sudden, my husbands starts shouting really loud … IF YOU DON’T STOP, I’LL NEVER MARRY YOU …

     Warped speed … he had the greatest sense of humor … besides, everyone in town knew everything about me from the time my husband announced our engagement … the nuns just smiled … they lived next door to him for years, I don’t think they ever took him seriously.

     Peace.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 7:00am

179. Wini says:

     This is a coincidence. Where I live now, 2 priests live directly across the street from me.

     Peace … God gives me the nicest neighbors.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 7:03am

180. bigdude says:

     I guess some of you know that I maintain a blog on myspace (Oh yeah Indigo, Love ya!! ) and I use it as a form of therapy for myself. I just wanted to share something from it with you. I dont know if it will help anybody, but it helped me to write it.

     I got my hair cut again today, every 5 or 6 weeks I will be going in for a trim. It was enervating. Once again, my stylist insulted me, lowered my ego to ground level, all of the things that I love her for. In some ways it really is therapeutic. Afterwards, I walked down to the Starbucks to grab a cup of coffee, and to remind myself how truly piss poor their coffee really is. Taking my red, white, and green cup (it is almost Christmas season) I wandered down to the river. We have been having heavy rains lately so the river is up, the ducks and swans paddling furiously against the current, yet barely able to maintain their position in it, let alone make any headway.
     I stood by the river and pondered. Pondering is different from thinking, pondering doesn’t require as much work, and I just wasn’t in the mood to do any work. So, I stood and pondered about myself.
     I know that my ex never reads my blog’s, she will never look back, so I don’t have to worry about her. Even if she does read them I don’t care, they are not for her. Firstly, they are for me, a way to safely and sanely (well, maybe) express my thoughts, my feelings, and what I am doing in a manner that harms nobody. Secondly, it appears that others have been helped, I am glad of that result, even though it wasn’t the intended one.
     On the night my ex soc discarded me I asked her to at least try one more time. Her answer was an immediate “No”. From the second she said that I knew that I never wanted her back in my life in the role that she had previously filled. Afterwards, I extended my hand in friendship. I was lucky to come away with my fingers intact she bit at me so furiously. On that last night, in a drunken stupor I had called her a name. It wasn’t actually that bad a name considering the others that were floating around in my head. But, it hurt her. I apologized later in an e-mail, a sincere one. I also did something, and as soon as I did I regretted it. It was a cheap shot and I am usually better than that, but I did it. Heck, she even TOLD me to go ahead and do it. You never EVER tell a drunk angry hurt man to go ahead and do something, because is gonna go ahead and do it!!!! This is another reason why whiskey is banned from my life. I can only thank my lucky stars that I didn’t have any Tequila in the house (also banned, regretfully, from my life). Anyway, I apologized for this also, because I knew it was wrong. Did my apology matter? Probably not, and you know something? I don’t care. I honestly truly don’t give a rat’s ass. I know that her life has been richer by being with me. She has seen and done things that most people never even dream of. I shared it with her, and gave it to her because I loved her at that time. And I am glad that was able to do those things with and for the woman i loved. No regrets there.
     While pondering by the river a thought wandered into my mind, and I paid attention, that type of occurrence happening so infrequently. I realized that in all honesty, after what she had done to me, she had gotten off remarkably lightly. I could have flown to her and confronted her face to face, the funds were available, but I chose not to. I chose not to put myself in a position where I may do something else that I would later regret. As I look back I still feel that this was the correct choice. The only sane choice to make. Thats because I have the ability to look back into parts of my life and recognize a bad choice from a good choice.
     I also pondered about the way I am right now. As I stand here, warts and all (well, moles really, I am pretty much wart free) damaged, broken, clawing desperately to learn how to cope, and how to heal what is left. I realized something else then. My ex will never ever know how much better off I am without her in my life. She will never look back, she will never come back, she will wander blindly onwards, never really being aware of what she does. And that’s okay. She is what she is, so there it is. I am improving each day. Yes, each day is still a struggle, and it will be for a very very long time, but I made it through yesterday so I might be able to make it through today, we will have to see.
     And what did I really do to her? I forgave her. Absolution. Unconditional. She will never understand this concept, they never do, but she has it. I have made her a promise that if she is ever in a really tough spot she can come to me for help, only once though, then that door is closed to her. It is a genuine promise, made for the sake and the memory of the woman that I loved. She will never keep me to that promise, I already know that, so I don’t really have to worry there, but I mean what I say, its there if she ever needs it. And in doing that I have waved her onwards, wishing her the best, but sadly, I know what lies ahead for her. She doesn’t, but it is her life, she has made her choices. And there is no going back. Now, I have finally found someone that I truly want to spend the rest of my life with. It is me. I know now that I have to learn to trust myself first, above all others. It has been a hard and painful lesson to learn. But I have learnt it. She will never learn it, they simply are not able to learn anything. They see no need to.
     I have waved her goodbye, buried my “wife”, and I hope and pray that who this woman has become never ever enters my life again, in any way shape or form. I will not get the letter I need from her, but that’s okay. I will not allow her to determine how I feel anymore. And besides, I really really don’t want her seeing how well I am doing without her, how much better I am.

     “Live well, Live better without them in your life than you ever could have with them in it.”

     Those are words to live by.

     Oh yeah, there was also something I learned, but it was something I already knew anyway. Starbuck’s coffee really DOES taste like pee.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 11:18am

181. Indigoblue says:

     The FORCE is STRONG IN THIS ONE !:) LOVE jere

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 11:43am

182. lostingrief says:

     hi all,
     just finished with a really strong, heart-wrenching cry.
     i can’t believe how much i loved that man. how much i did for him. how loyal and true i was. how much i helped him in every way. how he could always depend on me for anything, whether spiritual, emotional, material or other.
     i feel so alone. so devastated. so … trashed.
     he called me on friday after a full three months of NC, saying he ‘needed my advice’ about something that was ’serious.’ he said he didn’t have anything against me(!) and that he hoped life and my ‘new boyfriend’ were treating me well.
     i didn’t call him back. i felt strong. i couldn’t believe the nerve he had to call me like nothing happened; like we had spoken just yesterday. the nerve he had to insinuate that i moved on to someone else in short order, just because HE did. the nerve to think i would give him advice, or anything else for that matter.
     i was furious.
     but now i’m just devastated all over again. i miss his shiny, disco-ball being, his sparkling eyes, i miss his touch, i miss the sex, i miss laughing with him, and watching sports, and play-fighting. i miss his company. and the familiarity that comes with knowing someone for 25 years.
     and i also know none of it was real.
     i can’t stop crying. every cell in my body yearns for him right now. i know it’s crazy, but i can’t help it. i got so trashed. he told me he never thought of me as a lover, that i wasn’t pretty enough for him anymore, that his NEW gf was perfect for him. three months — no contact.
     and i’ve probably gained 20 pounds.
     and no one else will ever want me.
     and maybe i should have called him back.
     at least i could feel like he cared about me a little bit.
     but it was all fake. and it will still be fake.
     and it really hurts so so much.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 1:16pm

183. bigdude says:

     Lost, I feel for you so deeply. There are days where still cry at the most unexpected times. I also miss the woman I loved, and I know that she wasnt real now. But the love we felt for that persona WAS real. It WAS genuine. I fell in love all over again with my ex when i took her to Rome. I was able to give the woman I loved her lifes dream. And I fell for her all over again, hard. 7 weeks afterwards she discarded me. But you know what? I dont regret taking her there. I loved her then. I know that I can love unconditionally, even if the other person is a construct, with as much substance as a piece of western movie scenery. I was able to give, and to give something I knew was important. I wanted nothing in return for it, my joy was in giving. Look back, look at how YOU are able to love. One day, Karma willing, a man will enter your life. He will be a good man. but even still, make him EARN you. Make him WORK for you. Make him SHOW he cares, dont just liten to his words. The sociopaths in our lives are all the same. You are right, THEY are fake. But YOU are not. YOU are real, just as your love was, and just as your pain is. And as long as you know that you can love, and as long as you know that you can feel pain, not the pain of a sociopath who’s desires have been denied but REAL pain, then you will always know that you are truly alive and that they are not. They are NOT deserving of us, but they ensare us and feed off our souls. So be it. We have to make ourselves stronger, and better, and we have to make sure that the next person who enters our lives has EARNED US. Because we have so much to give. We will not give it up cheaply. Never again. And YOU are strong enough, it is inside you.
     I wish you peace, but it doesnt come easily after we have been fed upon by one of these people. But you can find it, it is inside you. Love yourself as strongly as you loved him. you will then find peace I think.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 1:48pm

184. lostingrief says:

     thanks bigdude…
     still crying here. can’t seem to stop.
     all you wrote is true. you’d think that after 20 years you’d know that someone was fake. you’d know they don’t really love you. i gave my ex everything. i created a beautiful home, with healthy lovingly prepared meals, and beauty all around. i gave of myself in every way a loving person does. he was always here with me because i was ‘the queen.’ i had suspicions that he cheated, but he was never overt and i never snooped because for the most part, he treated me well and showed love to me also.
     then, two years ago, his mother died and he became a totally different person. he was verbally abusive, and demeaned me, ignored me, dismissed me, withheld love and sex from me, and said terrible mean things to me that just shocked me. i chalked it up to his grief over his mom.
     long story short, i found out that he had been having an entire relationship with a girl almost half my age and that she was pregnant. i threw him out there and then and haven’t spoken to him since. he didn’t seem to care one bit about losing me. his words, when i said ”i hope she’s worth losing me”, were: ”no one is worth losing you. you mean i lost you!?” he was actually shocked.
     after three months of NC, he called me this past friday, and i have a lot of guilt about not calling him back. i have ALWAYS been there for him, no matter what.
     it just hurts so much. i wasn’t good enough, i didn’t do enough, i wasn’t pretty enough (anymore), or young enough (anymore) or thin enough (anymore). so he just moved on to a younger, prettier, thinner, better version of me. Ouch.
     anyway, tomorrow will be better.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 2:23pm

185. henry says:

     LIG - I offer you a big hug - I knew intellectually what he was, why I felt like I did, but was still unable to let go. But after 8 months NC - he showed up at my door to harrass me out of the blue - for no other reason than he just could I guess -why? I will never know - but emotionally something clicked - my intellect and my emotion’s finally came together. I was targeted by a Physcopath - plain and simple - nothing has ever affected me more. But I just can’t dewl on it anymore - to do so still gives him power. Shit happen’s. I am not going to beat myself up about it anymore. i have stopped looking for approval through him. I just have to look at the good people in my life - i am a great guy -that is what he saw in me - and he wanted it - but I am better than he is - and I won’t ever think I have lost anything again - I have gained so much from this. You know what I have been throught LIG - but I did most of too myself - we have to stop thinking about what they would think about us. I survived this..And so can you - we all can - I think everything happen’s for a reason - what have I learned? alot - I have learned that I am a wonderful person and I can grow stronger everyday - not weaker - it is up too me where I go from here - HE is out of my heart - and I can start from here and be the best I can be - nothing else matter’s…….and I don’t feel like I have to start all over with NC - he has no power over me - so he will look for it somewhere else…..

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 2:30pm

186. OxDrover says:

     Dear LIG, (((((hug))))))

     Sweetie, you are experiencing part of the GRIEF PROCESS (google that and read about it) and sadness is a normal part of it. So is anger, so is bargaining, and other emotions. You don’t go through them 1, 2, 3, though, you go 1, 3, 2, 4, 2, 3, 2, etc. but eventually you come to ACCEPTANCE and you can accept that the thing (the relationship you thought you had) you lost is gone forever, and you can be okay with that. It doesn’t matter WHAT you grieve over, it is ANY LOSS that is important to you.

     I lost my husband in an accident, I grieved over that loss, that relationship I had. Before I got done with the grief process though, I was NEEDY and I got hooked by a psychopath that held out “new love” to cure the grief from the old lost love. BIG MISTAKE and many times people get back into another relationship before they have finished grieving for the last one, and it makes them VULNERABLE and needy for another P to latch on to.

     What you are feeling sweetie is NORMAL, NATURAL, AND HEALTHY, but IT HURTS! Sure, it hurts BADLY! Every one of us here has felt that grief, that pain, and we pretty well understand how you hurt, but I CAN GUARENTEE YOU that if you work hard on healing that the PAIN WILL GO AWAY. You will be stronger, more immune to the psychopaths in this world, and be a stronger and wiser, and more cautious person. You will survive this sweetie, though right now it doesn’t feel like it. (((((hugs))))) and My prayers for your healing.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 2:46pm

187. lostingrief says:

     thanks guys: hugs right back atcha.
     thing is, i’ve been doing really well. really moving on and doing better at my job, my friendships, my life. i was fine until he called me last friday. barely even missed him or thought about him much anymore. when he called, i didn’t answer and i didn’t call back. i shouldn’t have listened to the message either, because it brought up all the old feelings. i think he knew that it would and that’s exactly why he called. he never believed i would ever leave him. he never believed i wouldn’t call him if he said he needed me. i’m sure he’s shocked as hell that i haven’t. it’s completely unlike me, in his eyes. i was there every second with my arms out to him for 20 years. he always said, ”no matter what i ever do or what happens, you will always be in my life.”
     wrong-o.
     doing better this evening. just a bit tired from all the weepyness.
     guess i just needed a good cry.
     i’m even more adament about NC. he thinks i’ll bend to his will again. he’s got the wrong chick. guess the honeymoon is over with this new gf. and i suppose his wife is still in the picture too. and yet, he’s still trying to get back in here. what a … a … oh, yea, right… PSYCHOPATH!
     peace to all.
     towanda!, i think.

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 4:58pm

188. bigdude says:

     Nil Illigitimi Non Carborundum, Roughly translated it means “Dont Let The Bastard Grind You Down”.
     Hang tough lostingrief, dont let him grind you down.

     http://blog.myspace.com/index......D=13338410

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 5:45pm

189. Stargazer says:

     I’m so proud of you, LIG, for not returning that call. I’m sorry for what you’re going through. Like OxD says, I believe this is part of the process, and you will be stronger because of it. Some day there won’t be any tears left to cry for him. Even after being on this site for so long, I still have a hard time fathoming that there are people out there who cheat and lie like the rest of us sleep and eat. I hope you never give him the time of day again. Can you change your phone number so he can’t call any more?

     Tuesday, 11 November 2008 @ 9:20pm

190. bigdude says:

     “I still have a hard time fathoming that there are people out there who cheat and lie like the rest of us sleep and eat.”

     Stargazer, this is the question I will carry with me for life. And as long as i never understand it then I know that I am normal, that I am okay. No, it doesnt make it easier to heal, it doesnt stop the tears in the middle of the night. But, we are as different from them as thay are from us. They cant understand what we feel and thnk any more than we can understand what they feel and think. We have values, a sense of ethics and obligation, they do not. I admit that at times my morals have been flexible, but they have never been bent or broken. They have no morals, so they never need to worry about this. We have the capacity for introspection, to look inside ourselves, to try to see where we made mistakes and to learn from them. They lack this capacity. We have empathy, and that stops us from behaving in ways that hurt others. They will go through life hurting others, and hurting themselves as well. And when they get hurt they will blam us for it. I am glad that I cant understand them.

     Wednesday, 12 November 2008 @ 8:00am

191. Wini says:

     BigDude: That’s what happens when choosing if you should take the righteous path or unrighteous path when faced with a fork in the road of life.

     Those of us who chose the righteous paths, did the work, learned how to do the work (wisdom gained), and reaped the rewards at the end (thinking it was just the paycheck, prize, prestige what ever the reaping item was at that point in time in our lives … it was more than what we thought, as we got older we realized we were strengthening our Ethical and Moral fiber, building a firm foundation, instilling competency, assuring satisfaction that we now know how to do said job … and so much more ).

     Those that refused to take a righteous path, chose to take the unrighteous path. They never did the work, but reaped the reward in the end (the man made reward, not any of the Godly rewards).

     They didn’t learn how to do the job. They didn’t feel satisfaction for completing a job. They didn’t feel fulfilled for accomplishing the task. They of course, didn’t build any Ethical or Moral fibers. They didn’t feel confident for learning how to do the job.

     And everyone wonders why they are so messed up?

     There is more to this theory, just deduct all the ramifications that happened throughout our lives as we learned lessons of God’s virtues along the way.

     Peace.

     Wednesday, 12 November 2008 @ 9:02am

192. OxDrover says:

     Guys and gals,

     It takes time to go down the “healing road” and there are pot holes along the way, sometimes we lose our shoes and have to walk on rocks and thorns or broken glass, and sometimes the road is up hill and we have to crawl and climb, sometimes the road is in sunshine and other times cold and sleet, but what we have to do is continue on.

     That is what LF does for us is to give us a companion to call to us out of the darkness, “Come on, keep going, don’t look down” and encourage us to keep going. Because we are on this “road” “together” we are able to help each other and we know we are not alone.

     Think about how it would be locked in a dark room, no light at all. You dont’ know where you are, how long you will be there, or what you omight encounter and you are so scared and afraid and then you hear a voice out of the darkness that is comforting and feel a hand reach out to you, and you know you are NOT ALONE. How comforting would that be?

     Wednesday, 12 November 2008 @ 9:43am

193. lostingrief says:

     hiya star:
     i don’t want to change my phone number. he’s not ”winnng” again! i know when he calls, and i don’t answer (he only called last friday; prior to that, NC for three months.)
     so, i don’t answer the phone if it’s a number i don’t know. next time, i just have to remember NOT TO LISTEN TO THE MESSAGE! but i have such a curious nature, it was impossible not to hear what he had to say.
     it did set me back a bit, but i’m good now. stupid s.o.b., actually started the message with, ”i need a favor…” now that’s freakin’ insanity!
     he’s scratchin’ his head right about now, in total disbelief that his ‘rah-di-dah chick’ isn’t calling him back!
     HA-HA!
     TOWANDA!!!!!

     Wednesday, 12 November 2008 @ 5:08pm

194. Iwonder says:

     Hi LIG: Oh that famous line, “I need a favor.” It always started that way with my ex. Did anyone ever hear them say, “I would like to do you a favor…” Nope. It’s all about them and what they need. I say “up yours” to all of them.

     I just had a wonderful healing conversation with the ex’s ex-wife..the one before me. She’s so nice. She sufferred his abuse too. Same controlling, verbally abusive AH. Only, he was very physically abusive to her. Thank God he only got physical with me once..but think about it. Once may be all it would take to finish the job. I was lucky to get out. We also compared notes as to the time line when he started getting with me. She had walked out on him by then so we don’t have hard feelings toward eachother. The guy was cheating on me like 8 months before my back before I found out about her. That sucked for me. It was a slow torturous death. The more he went out to see the OW, the more fights and abuse I took. I always ask myself why I put up with that so long but it was so hard to cut him loose. I kept hoping things would turn back around. I have a lot of regrets for not getting out sooner.

     At least I’m not hurting anymore. NC is great.

     Wednesday, 12 November 2008 @ 10:11pm

195. bigdude says:

     I dont know, I had a really bad spell the past few days, I thought I would share with you what I wrote in my blog. And when I say a bad spell, I mean a BAD SPELL.. Oh yes, Indigo? You really are great, and thaks to all the others on here for their help and support.

     My Daily Battle:
     This what I struggle and battle with every day, every single day.
     The sense of loss: This is so difficult for me, I am not sure why but it is. I find myself crying at night, asking “where are you”? I don’t know where the woman I loved has gone, why she was taken from me and killed so efficiently in front of me. I will spend the rest of my life never knowing. I keep hoping that there is some part of her left inside whoever resides in her body now, I keep trying, looking for a glimmer of humanity, a sign that my S is still alive somewhere in her. I keep wondering if the phone will ring and I will hear her voice saying “Its okay Jamie, I am still here”, just as I did with her once, but I know that it will never happen. God, I’m crying as I write this. I keep wanting to be wrong about her, to find out that it was some sort of huge mistake, to take her in my arms and hold her and make her feel better, to apologize to her for failing her somehow. A forlorn hope. My S is gone from me forever. I have buried what I could of her, tried to erase the memories with hypnosis so I could handle the pain, but that can only work so far. Every time the phone rings my heart jumps, half of me afraid it is her, half of me hoping it is her, to have her tell me it has all been a bad dream. But whenever the phone rings I also know that it will never be her, the woman I loved.

     The pain: I cannot begin to describe the level and type of pain that I feel. I have never had to deal with anything on this level before. It is part of what drove me to try to take my own life, and it is what makes me believe that life without the woman I loved is not worth living, it is a life emptied of what it once contained. But, I made my choice to live and so I will live, as best as I am able. I will try to treat myself the way that I would have treated S were she still here with us. I will live well in a way, but in many ways it will remain forever an empty life. The pain is also what prevents me from truly enjoying the company of my friends. I have some wonderful friends, and I love them dearly, but I always have to hold back the tears from them, the unremitting agony of what is left inside. I have holes in me now, huge gaping rents through my heart and soul, and they will never heal.

     The trust: I know now that I will not be able to let a woman that close to me ever again. The level of trust that I placed in S was greater than I have ever been able to show to anyone, I trusted her with my heart, my soul, and even my life. I am unable to ever trust anybody I don’t know that much ever again. And I don’t allow people I don’t know that close to me and I never will be able to. Trust was huge issue for me, having been betrayed in the past by people I trusted, people who I should have been able to trust but they weren’t deserving of it.

     The devaluing: Of all of them this hurts the most in a way. To have had all the years we were together tossed aside for the sake of an online fling that lasted (apparently) for two months. To realize that everything that I thought we had, everything that we had done and shared, all the troubles we had fought through together as a couple meant that little. I thought I was handling this one better, but the past few days have taken the wind out of me. I thought that what we had was magical, I even fell in love with her all over again in Rome, totally, smitten by this woman. I tried to give her whatever she desired, for one simple reason. I loved her. It made her happy. That’s all, just to know that I had made her day or month or life better, even in the smallest way meant everything to me. One warm genuine smile from her was like sunshine. And now I am left sitting here, my life torn apart, my psyche and my soul scarred forever, a total wreck of what I once was. Why? Because I loved. Everything that I thought had value is now gone from my life. I wasn’t left with any self-respect, any dignity, I had been devalued and everything that I thought we had together has now totally lost any meaning or value it might have had. My self worth? I have none really, I am taking small steps to try to find some but it is a hard lonely road. And a long one.

     This is what I struggle with every day, and no matter how intensive the therapy, no matter how deeply I am hypnotized, this is what greets me upon waking, and it will be there for the rest of my life. Every time that damn phone rings my heart will jump, every time I see someone with hair like hers I will start to cry. Every day is a living hell, but I smile, I pretend I am doing okay, I pretend that I will be fine. But I am not fine, and I never will be. This truly was my last chance and the woman I shared it with has been snatched away. I will grieve for her for the rest of my life. I will always hope that somewhere my S is still inside that stranger, I will always hope that one day she might reach out and tell me “Its okay Jamie, I AM still here”. But I will always know that that will never happen, whoever this person is now won’t allow it. Ever. She will never allow that simple act of humanity.
     This is what they do to us. They take everything. All that we had is gone or lays in ruins around our feet, and every day we struggle to find meaning in it all. And we never do find it. So, I will take what is left of my S and carry her inside me to Paris. I will take that part of her at least. I promised her I would take her there and I never break a promise.
     Every day is a struggle, every day a battle. So far I have managed to crawl this far, but it takes its toll. And the only person that could have helped is gone forever.

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 4:37pm

196. OxDrover says:

     Dear Bigdude,

     Your thoughts and your feelings are I think universal to those of us who are grieving…that sense of loss, of bargaining (what can I do to make it all a big mistake, a bad dream, to put it right?) That loss of trust, not only in others but in our own ability to see the true from the false. How could we have missed such a fake?

     The QUOTE “I never will be fine” is also a natural, normal part of the grief process, Bigdude.

     Yes, it is a long road, and a lonely one, because the only one you want to comfort you in this horrible pain is the one who is GONE.

     When my husband died in a plane crash here at our small airport and farm, I was there. Through the grace of God, one thing after another squelched my plans to take my terminally ill step father for a drive through the country, and finally, a broken finger made me decide to stay home that morning. The morning of the crash.

     I heard the take off run, then the crash, and then the “whoosh” of the flames and though the trees blocked my view, I knew what had happened as I raced through the house to get to my truck. The man I loved, the man I idolized lay there stark naked except for one shoe and his belt, and I couldn’t see my son, or the two friends, but only the fifty feet of flames shooting up from the plane into the top of a pine tree. As a medical professional I knew from the first glance that though my husband was alive, he would not live long, but the thought that my beloved son, and two friends were still inside that inferno was more than I could even imagine. They stood only a few feet away, but in my shock I literally could not see their faces.

     My whole life went up with that airplane I thought. I thought there was no way I could survive, but I put one foot in front of the other, and I managed to come to acceptance of that horrible crash, that horrible loss of the man I loved.

     Not quite a year later, feeling old, undesirable, and alone, I “hooked up with” a P who seemed to offer a new relationship, a new happiness, and before another year had gone buy, he had devalued me, and I knew he was only using me. Some how, I’m not sure how, I had the strength to kick his miserable butt to the curb, though it broke my heart to give up the dreams he had brought to me of another happy life. I felt even older, even less desirable, used and abused, and trashed.

     Then the Year of Chaos with my P-son and his partners trying to get rid of me so he could get access to the family assets. While I was down, as low as you could get, he attacked me while my back was turned. Talk about “crazy making”—I was at the limit of my sanity, and then my entire family, with the exception of one adopted son devalued and discarded me like used toilet paper. I had to flee my home to save my life. I had nothing, everything was gone, all my security, all my self worth, and I was alone except for that one son who was also devalued and discarded “because he isn’t blood.”

     My grief was overpowering profound, and I felt there was no hope. I survived but what was there to look forward to in my “declining” years, everything I valued was gone, up in smoke either physical or emotional. GONE.

     But time passed, and I began to see that as long as you are alive, your value, your validation must be from within yourself not from without. Not from someone else, no matter how prescious they are to you, or how much you love them. What we are is inside ourselves.

     I turned back to God, and started to trust him, renewed my relationship with Him, and renewed my relationship with myself, started to validate myself, and not depend on anyone else to validate that I am worthwhile, that I have value. Even if the ONLY person on earth that values me is me, that’s enough.

     I read a book called “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Dr. Viktor Frankl. Dr. Frankl was in the Nazi camps for years, and lost everything except his body and his mind, and yet, this brave and good man still found meaning in life—meaning separate from things and separate from other people. His only “possession” that he had left was is body. All else was gone. His writings, his home, his wife, his family, his friends, ALL GONE. Yet this man found meaning in his suffering, and in learning from that suffering. He found meaning in becoming a more thoughtful person, a better person, because of his sufferings, rather than using his sufferings as an excuse to lose hope, to lose his humility, to lose his joy.

     I came to see that what I had suffered was nothing compared with Dr Frankl’s losses and suffering. Something he said though in his book tht to me was very profound.

     He said that pain and suffering is like a gas. It totally fills any container it is put into, regardless if it is a small amount of gas or a large amount of gas, it expands to fill the ENTIRE volume of the container.

     So your pain, my pain, is no less able to fill us than his pain was to fill him. We are all totally filled with our own pain at the losses we have suffered. To some people a paper cut or a broken finger nail is enough to fill them with pain, and with others, it takes a “big” loss to fill them with pain, but whatever the pain is, it FILLS us, but it doesn’t have to last forever.

     Find meaning in your pain Bigdude, don’t let that pain suck the joy out of the rest of your life, it doesn’t have to.

     She isn’t the “only person that could have helped” — the only person who CAN help is inside your skin, and that is YOU. You have value, you are not alone (we are here) and you can make it, you can pass through this fire and come out refined.

     “The finest china has been through the hottest fire.”

     Like Dr. Frankl, I think that our suffering refines us, burns out the impurities (if we will let it) and brings us out of the furnaces of the pain, better, and stronger, and with more of everything that matters. I hear your pain, Bigdude, but I also know that you can pass through this pain, and come out the other side. Hang in there and God bless, Bigdude. (((hugs)))

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 5:42pm

197. bigdude says:

     OxDrover,

     Thanks for your kind words and help. I am failiar with Frankl’s work, and I just went online and ordered a copy of it. I am lookingforward to reading it. I will cope, I know that, but some days it is so hard.

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 6:21pm

198. henry says:

     OH Bigdude - What can anyone say too you that will help you make it through the nite? All the wisdom and advice you get here is helpful - but you are still left feeling like you will never be the same again - I still feel the thing’s you described - but they are so much less intense than they were. Time is the best healer in the world. And I was like you - I thought I will never love like this again - this was my last chance - well I don’t want to love like that again - it wasn’t real. Why did I do it? Why do I miss it? Because I am left here with myself -again - I have spent most of my adult life alone - yes I have family but I know how it hurts to have someone in your life one nite and gone the next. And I don’t know what tomorrow will bring and you dont either - so - don’t think your life is over - just the WAY we loved them is over - and we have to learn from it Dude - I dont know the specifics of your story - but I just want to tell you - walk through the pain - learn from it - that intense love we still feel for them ain’t love - it is misbelief - we are bewildered - and our self esteem has been crushed - but look at who crushed it!!! you deserve better Dude - your life isnt over - it has just gone through a big change - and you will adjust and you will not feel like you feel tonite for ever - give yourself sometime - just think of it this way - she didnt love you she pretended too love you - she lied - that hurts - try your best to keep going - I have seen your picture dude - you got lots of livin too do -

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 8:27pm

199. henry says:

     dude i have a stack of books - but the one I recommend is (Meaning from Madness) by richard skerritt

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 8:33pm

200. Indigoblue says:

     Henry You are my Hero
     BIG DUDE YOU ARE MY HERO!

     Give you both a simple remedy! Let Go! Give It all to the one who created everything stop trying to figure it out it is not Important that you understand all things! You are worthy of so much more ,that I can only begin to IMAGIN what you both are capable of now that you have Passed this Test!
     Wini said this and I thought how good it was !
     He is not going to let you progress untill you get this lesson right! So Ya got it! HURRAY for the both of yas! I know it was TOUGH I know exactly what each of you have felt! I was there ! I dwelled on it it consumed me and my Life stood Still the Whole 7 years ! But Now We are FREE Rejoice ! Dance and Party and Laugh and sing and play and cry tears of Joy because YOU deserve to You both have been through HELL! They tryed to ruion You but it did not happen! I told you so ! LOVE JJ

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 9:14pm

201. Indigoblue says:

     Big
     I wrote the above before I read your post
     You are so wrong!
     Like a theif in the night
     instantly you will be healed!
     I know it sounds incredible but it’s simple!
     Give yourself to the one Who controls it ALL!
     Give all you fret over give all your concerns give all your life!
     In an Instant it will be over ! Poof! just like that!
     Just Like a Beer in my hand Poof it’s Gone! :)~
     YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU! PERIOD! JJ

     Friday, 21 November 2008 @ 9:22pm

202. Wini says:

     BigDude: I don’t know if I ever wrote you to tell you to read this site, but it does show the difference between us (givers) and them (takers).

     “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves”

     To understand the difference between us (givers) and them (takers) read this site:

     http://www.abusefacts.com/arti.....Takers.php

     It’s natural to waffle back and forth while you go through the shock of this. And, the shock stage is what you are in.

     I wish you peace as you get your footing back firmly on the ground.

     Yes, it is horrific what they do to us. No one is denying it. But, your heart will heal in time, bigger and better than it was before. Trust that. Know that it will happen … but, that you, like the rest of us has to go through the hell of this pain in order to heal.

     For now, pray for your EX. Pray for her soul for they are the infants of the universe. Spiritually stunted and clueless.

     Saturday, 22 November 2008 @ 12:26am

203. Wini says:

     bigdude: Another thing I meant to mention to you if no one has done so already.

     You didn’t loose her. You still have her and will have her all your life … she’s been with you all along … just look in the mirror. The man looking back at you is what she mirrored to you during your relationship to get you to fall so deeply and passionately in love with her.

     Stop beating yourself up so hard. Be good to yourself. You deserve to pamper yourself. I suggest you schedule yourself for a nice, long massage … maybe get a pedicure and facial while your at it … and maybe a shave.

     We all know how you feel, for we too have gone through exactly what you are going through … and we too, fell for them hook, line, and sinker. That’s what they do and that’s why they are so good at what they do … they mirror us back to ourselves.

     Peace.

     Saturday, 22 November 2008 @ 3:28am

204. bigdude says:

     Jere, you are great! Thanks, but I am not the hero type.

     Wini, I am pampering myself. I am going to Paris for a few days over New Years. I got a great deal on the trip so I am dragging my sorry butt over there. I will eat in cheap cafes, drink a little wine, and just enjoy life. I am a member of the family of man, my ex-soc is not, and can never ever regain her seat at our table. I am going to join in celebratng with others this New Year, and I am damn well going to enjoy it. And as I said once, I was thinking of sending my ex a postcard but changed my mind. She wasnt worth the salt in my tears so I am damned if I am going to waste any spit on a stamp for her.

     Saturday, 22 November 2008 @ 9:20pm

205. shattered_sapphire says:

     Wini,
     You grabbed my attention on here. I’ve made a total commitment to turn my life back to God and start handing to him what becomes too much for me to carry any longer. Somewhere along the way I lost myself in so many ways. I feel so blessed to have found the answers to many questions I have. The relief I feel when I go to Church, spending time with my Pastor and just spending time daily with God has helped me so much. You are right the answers are all in the Bible. My SP is a close family member and verbally attacked me for turning to God. Have you ever encountered someone with so much hatred and jealously over you improving yourself? What I faced was definitely along the lines of Satan paying me a personal visit. To this day I can’t fathom what happened. The one who should have been the happiest for me tried instead to destroy me. This is a self proclaimed Christian. Or would wolf in sheep’s clothing be a more accurate description? The pieces of my heart are still trying to mend.
     ~Shattered

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 2:21am

206. Indigoblue says:

     DiamondBright
     Welcome! We are Glad You are Here! We are Sorry your a Member!
     That’s The Catch ! IT’S OUR FaLtE ! That’s The LIE !

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 3:34am

207. Wini says:

     Dear shattered: All the anti-social personalities believe in themselves and poo-poo the notion that there is a creator. Oh, they can attend church and pretend they believe, but their greed and selfishness block any wisdom coming into their thought process. As humans experiencing life down on earth … we are to strive to incorporate God’s virtues as our own. That’s the foundation of how our country was built and that’s the philosophy of how we are to live our and strive for in our lives.

     The reason our dealings with our EXs knocked us to our knees was our reality of having to know another human, another child of God’s could do this to us … and not only do this to us, have foresight before coming into our lives that they were purposely going to do this to us.

     I just chalk it all up to if a person is focused on one way of looking at like (the vices in life) how could they possibly be focused on the opposite … the virtues in life. They may know what the virtues are, but they are so blinded out of selfishness and greed they can’t truly understand, nor care to understand the reasoning behind why we should live a virtuous life.

     Living a life striving for virtues is fulfilling. We are made whole and we learn contentment and patience. We LIVE.

     Living a life striving for vices is not fulfilling, therefore, they have to constantly strive for the next vice to fill that void, that emptiness inside them. They never learn patience and they are never content no matter what they strive for, what they steal, how much money they obtain. They DIE, they are death. Figuratively.

     Like I said, life is simple, people make it difficult due to their perceptions of life. If people read the Bible, they will see and learn how to live the positives in life. If people live in their egos … there is where they learn the negatives in life.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 11:32am

208. shattered_sapphire says:

     Wini,
     Daily I take a look around me and make mention of all my blessings. We have our health, the bills are paid, my car still starts, there’s food in the cabinet, we still have our jobs and are capable of working them. To name just a few. Everyday I make sure that I remember the little things that make my life so much brighter. And just thinking about the many children I have been blessed with in my life in my extended family brings a smile to my face.

     This morning at Church our Pastor went down a list of A,B,C’s and he had listed all the things he was thankful for. Of course every letter had more than one (q,x,z were missing) and I realized just how much I do take for granted that could have easily been taken away. Starting the morning out surrounded by others and worshiping always makes the outlook of the day better!

     On some occasions I start to feel myself being sucked back into that ugly black hole of evil. That place where my sp led me to and went above and beyond to keep me there. The little suggestions that I didn’t catch before. Encouraging me to do things that my whole being screamed at. Today I am thankful that I am finally away from that. The suggestions of that demented person no longer infiltrate my head and make me second guess myself. Nor do I have to live life trying to repair lie after lie this person said about me. Is is normal for a sp to accuse those who love them of doing the horrific things that they themselves do? I have lived with a lot of that. Always on the losing end and hearing some really odd excuse as to why they said it or did it. Or just complete denial insisting it was in my head and it never was said or done.

     Thankfully God will step in one day and the time will come when the truth will be revealed. They will no longer have that kind of power to hurt people and get away with it.

     ~Shattered

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 3:41pm

209. bigdude says:

     Shattered, wini is right. I am not a Christian myself, I am an atheist, but there is a lot of good in the bible. I am glad that people have that to turn to, I am glad that you have it. Use it. Learn form this, learn to heal, learn to grow. I am trying to do the same, and I know it isnt easy. We have all gone through something similar to you, each and every one of us. I am saddened that you have had to join this club, but take whatever we can give and use that. I have been helped by so many people in here that I cant thank them all, but they are appreciated.

     I blog daily, and if there is anything there that can help you are welcome ot it. The link is below. And remember, you are not alone in this, you have us and you have your God. Thast more than a lot of other people can say.

     http://profile.myspace.com/ind.....D=13338410

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 3:57pm

210. Stargazer says:

     I really feel we have so much choice over how we think and feel. When I start thinking about all the injustice in the world and the horrible things I’ve been through, I can become very depressed. But when I focus on happy things and things I’m grateful for, I can become happy. Free will choice is very powerful, and it is a gift we all have.

     I feel like much that is happening in my life is out of control. I cannot control the aging process or the fact that my condo is losing value and I’m stuck in it paying a high mortgage. So I’ve been focusing on making it beautiful. I just tiled a kitchen wall. I remodeled my kitchen this year and do little things every week to make my home more beautiful. That way, every time I’m here, I look around and see beautiful things. It makes me happy and puts me in a creative mood. It also makes me want to have people over, which also makes me happy.

     I feel happiness is about these little things. It is not about changing things we cannot control (like the way psychopaths act). After the initial shock and grief of being played by a P wears starts to subside, it is up to us to choose whether and how we are going to get past this and become stronger because of it or wiser.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 3:59pm

211. Iwonder says:

     Hi StarG. I’m so jealous. I wish I had the $$ to remodel my condo. Maybe in 2009.

     I had a good laugh Friday. When I met my ex he was separated and said he would file a divorce and marry me. This went on for 2 years…he filed divorce 3x but didn’t follow through. Finally, she got him to file a 4th time. He tried to pull a fast one on Friday. During the week, she called him to see what was going on with the divorce & that she needed him to send her a copy of one of the papers she sent him. He tap-danced around the subject pretty much and just said he’d mail her a copy of that paper. She said she needs to know what is going on because she was leaving for FL today. Funny, it must have totally slipped his mind the hearing was Friday. He never told her. I said to her she better call the courthouse herself. She did and found out about the hearing. She didn’t let him know that she knew and went there. Guess what? He was there. He must have pooped his pants.
     He was expecting her not to show and the case would have been dismissed again. Today, she is on the plane a free woman, finally. And what is hilarious is, now that he is divorced the woman whom he is with now will expect him to marry her!!! He gave her the same line! LOL! LOL!!

     I’m so glad he’s finished with me and the ex-wife. We are free.

     I’m also feeling good enough to date again. I have a date this Wednesday night and actually looking forward to it.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:17pm

212. Stargazer says:

     Towanda, wonder woman! I wish someone could write a children’s book about psychopaths as a way of educating them. “Harry Goes to Prison Again” or “Freddy Defrauds his Family” or something like that. It could include a string of marriage and divorce promises, fake credentials, and fatherless (or motherless) children left behind. Your story about your ex just reminded me of a story that someone should write. lol It could teach children about the laws of karma (cause and effect).

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:23pm

213. Wini says:

     BigDude: Even though you call yourself an atheist, doesn’t mean you weren’t brought up in our society … where our foundation was started from the ideas of those that read wisdom from the Bible. That’s why you have righteousness in you … without realizing it. The wisdom got passed down from generation after generation.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:24pm

214. Wini says:

     StarG: Good idea … start writing.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:25pm

215. Stargazer says:

     You know, a book is not a bad idea……………….*scratching head*

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:28pm

216. Wini says:

     Iwonder: Sounds like you are back to your happy self.

     Good for you … keep it up and enjoy your life.

     Peace.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:28pm

217. Wini says:

     StarG: Why not you to write the book. It is your idea.

     Peace. Hey, you can make it a pop out book or cut out coloring book … then have pop out masks that the kids can interchange and put on your predator’s (I mean leading person’s) face. LOL.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:31pm

218. Stargazer says:

     ha ha ha Wini you are cracking me up today. If it catches on, they will be dressing up like psychopaths on Halloween, too (with changeable masks included).

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:32pm

219. Wini says:

     StarG: I think your sense of humor is contagious too. LOL, that’s a good idea. I wouldn’t put it past these kids.

     Hey, that’s a good idea for young children to play the different parts … switching the masks … teaching them at an early age to watch out for the smiley faces with ulterior motives behind their backs.

     Mmmmmmmmmhhhhh. You may just be on to a new teaching tool for youngsters. Think about all the tears you can save a child going through the early stages of life if allowing them to play the parts of the masks in school is used as a new tool for the teacher?

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 4:50pm

220. shattered_sapphire says:

     Bigdude,
     I appreciate your response. The amount I have learned on here just reading has been truly eye opening. Thanks for the invite into your blog. I’ll be sure to check it out. Not too sure how that works on here with the personal blogs yet, I’m still learning. It is a sad unfortunate series of events that led us all here, yet in a way it seems as if it was meant to be. Not that we all deserved the ugliness in our lives and the torture, but that it has brought so many wonderful people together.
     ~Shattered

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 5:12pm

221. Wini says:

     shattered: You are right … I just feel so badly for the folks that had to deal with this on their own years ago, before the Internet, before health professionals had a grasp on the issue, before it was common knowledge.

     All those lives that were affected and most likely they couldn’t exchange ideas like we are doing to help themselves get through the maze of pain and confusion and work towards compassion and love to heal themselves.

     Peace. At least we are living in the right age for communication.

     Sunday, 23 November 2008 @ 6:40pm

222. bigdude says:

     I feel good. I spoke to my ex-soc tonight. She didnt even realize it but I have achieved closure. It was an interesting phone call. Healing in many ways. I feel very good. I was polite, even tempered, and I can now close the book on it in some ways. I still have to deal with what she did to me, I have a LOT of healing and work to do on myself, but I need nothing from her anymore. I hope she never ever enters my life again. I feel nothing for her anymore. I found that out while I spoke to her. The woman i loved is truly gone. I am not sure how to deal with some of the thoughts racing around in my head, but the person I talked to on the phone is not someone I even know, let alone like. I am not over it all, I understand that, but a lot of questions were answered without her knowing she was answering them. I am protected against her.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 2:59pm

223. Stargazer says:

     Bigdude,
     This is great that talking to your ex and seeing her for what she is gave you closure. I never spoke to my ex after I found out what he was. I really don’t know how I would react, but I could only hope for the same clarity you have. I do think knowledge is power. If you really know from the inside out what you are dealing with, you could not possibly want to go back for more.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:06pm

224. Wini says:

     BigDude: It’s nice to hear that you went 1 step forward and are at that place, that they can’t push you 20 steps backwards. Good for you.

     Check out this site to help you further with your personal healing.

     http://www.pathways-to-peace.com

     View the presentation. Turn your speakers on … let the presentation load … then make sure you click volume on in the lower left corner.

     Enjoy. I love love love this presentation … it shows us where we are going and that we are on the right path.

     Peace.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:23pm

225. Indigoblue says:

     I TOLD YOU SO !!!! LOVE JJ

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:28pm

226. Iwonder says:

     BigDude:

     Did she call you? Did she apologize or anything?

     I know how you feel. I told my ex that I don’t know who he is and I never did and that he is a stranger to me. I have a bitter taste in my mouth and could never feel the same way I did about this person ever again. I have closure but I still am not 100% healed over the experience. Somehow, the experience changed my entire perspective of the human race because up til now, I believed that everyone out there has a conscience on some level. I was sad for a long time. I still get depressed. Sometimes I think my ex is going to call someday and apologize for the hurt he caused….but I know that won’t happen. He’s never called and apologized for any of the people whose lives he had destroyed. He’s like a lawnmower. Anyone who crosses his path gets chewed up and spit out.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:31pm

227. Iwonder says:

     Hey StarG:

     Are you making a turkey tomorrow? If you lived near by, I’d come over. My mom is cooking. One of my sisters is coming from Maryland to spend the day with us. Another sis is coming up from Maryland on Sunday to stay with me because she has a meeting in NY Monday. She is going to take the train into NYC from my place Monday. At least I have my family but they are tired of hearing me talk about my ex. My Mom doesn’t understand. She and my dad have been together since high school.

     You know what is amazing? I live in a condo complex. While my ex lived with me for 2 years, he controlled me so much (dummy me allowed it,) that I became closed off from my friends & neighbors. These are the neighbors I used to hang out with, talk to, party with (guys and gals.) The week the ex split, my neighbors started talking to me again. They all heard my sad story and were quite happy he’d left. They started telling me how much I had changed while with him…like my clothes, hair, weight gain, I became introverted, etc. They all said if I needed anything they were there to help. Also, one of my neighbors is a minister so he and his wife’s prayers helped a lot. Now that I’m almost back to me, I’m back to helping my friend/neighbor who is by herself and not very healthy. She has a weight problem, diabetes, kidney ailments, depression. I am bringing her a Thanksgiving plate from my Mom’s tomorrow. I also re-connected with my cousin who is like a sister to me. We go to the gym 3x a week.

     Slowly things are returning to normal. I’ll never cut myself off from friends and family again.

     StarG: You have to let me know how your turkey came out.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:44pm

228. Iwonder says:

     Hey, you know what we should do? Every Thanksgiving while my family and I sat around the table, we would say the prayer and then one by one each of us had to say what we were Thankful for.

     Tomorrow, we should each post about something we are Thankful for. I know, it’s corny, but will be interesting reading and fun for tomorrow.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:50pm

229. Iwonder says:

     Hey, LIG, where are you??

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:51pm

230. Wini says:

     Oh BigDude: Don’t be surprised that she changes her MO on you … she’s perplexed why her fem wiles didn’t work on you .. now back to the drawing board … do not think she will give up so easily and just let you walk away from her like that … she’s got more tricks in her bag … she’s just got to refreshen herself with some new gimmicks.

     You are after all one of her possessions in life.

     Peace. That’s why you need carry with you at all time … a cross, wooden stakes, some sliver bullets … and a mirror to see that there is no reflections of her image back at you.

     Good luck! (LOL).

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:51pm

231. Iwonder says:

     And Garlic

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 3:52pm

232. Stargazer says:

     I will try to check in tomorrow after the food is all cooked and waiting for guests. I think it would be great if everyone could check in. I am a real homebody on Thanksgiving. I’m very attached to making the meal and having lots of leftovers. On Xmas, however, I don’t like to be home and especially not alone. I wish I could go to the LF gathering in NY.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:12pm

233. Indigoblue says:

     THO I Walk through the Valley Of Death and Destruction I Fear NO Evil because I am the meanest Son of A witch in The Valley! :)~

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:15pm

234. Iwonder says:

     StarG:

     Maybe you can come out for a visit. We haven’t really planned anything yet. I hope we all get together someday. How funny would that be?? You’ll have to find someone to snake-sit. Oh, they don’t eat everyday, right?

     I bet your meal comes out great. My cousin is making a turkey outside on the grill this year. Can’t wait to hear how that came out. But, there is nothing that can compete with my mom’s good old-fashioned cooking, for sure!

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:21pm

235. Iwonder says:

     Indi, stop smoking.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:22pm

236. Indigoblue says:

     Cough! Cough! Who Me?:)~

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:31pm

237. Wini says:

     Iwonder: What’s Indie Smoking?

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:33pm

238. Indigoblue says:

     EEeer :)~

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 4:39pm

239. bigdude says:

     “That’s why you need carry with you at all time … a cross, wooden stakes, some sliver bullets … and a mirror to see that there is no reflections of her image back at you.”

     I almost peed my pants when I read that.

     I called her, on her cell phone. It was at a time when I knew she would be in class so I could just leave a message, but she answered it. I woke her up. There is class for her today, but A friend of mine had already told me that she might have had to drop out of college. Well anyway, we talked, and it was interesting. I was nice, I will not treat her with anything less than the respect I would show anybody else. It was very interesting, I had already heard a lot from friends so I wasnt clueless. As we were talking I noticed that it was getting later and later. She also works as a TA at a high school, and they also had class today. About half an hour after she should have left for work she mentioned that she needed go get changed for work. She had just been talking about a couple of ladies she used to work with at the grocery store a few years ago, she hasnt mentioned them in all that time. I am wondering if she got laid off from her TA job and has had to go back to work at the store. Also, and i do feel bad for her about this, she broke up with the guy she left me for, but it turns out that she may be pregnant by him. She mentioned to me that her doctor had told her to quit smoking.
     Soooo, i have no proof of any of this, but with what I have learned it appears as if she might be: Pregnant, single, broke, barely employed, and had to drop out of college.
     Funny old world. I look 10 years younger, I have lost weight and am losing more, I am back to excercising and martial arts, trying to get my business up and running, my heart problems have diminshed with the new meds, I am taking myself to Paris for New Years. Am I missing something here? I was destroyed by this woman, I have years of healing ahead of me, but I feel good. I cant gloat if she is having all these problems, but if she is then they are of her own choosing. And her womanly wiles will no longer work on me. :o)

     Oh yeah, JJ, love ya guy!!!!!

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 5:30pm

240. Wini says:

     Yeah, but BigDude: Just because you think you can handle them … doesn’t mean it’s true. NO CONTACT … because they are after all … masters at manipulation.

     You got off easy this time, maybe cause she was groggy … funny how she poured the boo-hoo-hoo routine on you … stop falling for it. She’s probably NOT pregnant … has about 5 or 6 guys assuming they got her pregnant, now she’s going to collect abortion fees from all of them.

     Don’t worry about the likes of them and money … there are plenty of folks that know that have good hearts that will lend them money … never to get repaid … but, that’s what they do … they are experts at it.

     NO CONTACT, NO CONTACT, NO CONTACT … did I tell you NO CONTACT?

     I was just nosing around on Oprha.com site and was listening to the FREE Christmas songs she has on her site for the next 48 hours… especially Josh Groban’s … if that guy isn’t an ANGEL walking down on earth … I don’t know who is … actually, all artists are ANGELS of God … in my opinion.

     Peace.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 5:47pm

241. bigdude says:

     I needed to leave her a message about a joint business venture we had. It was fairly important, plus I had to leave a messag from my mom to her. She didnt pour the routine on me, I went in knowing a lot already, it was just interesting to hear lies. I didnt tell her I knew the truth, I just let her go on. Funny, she hasnt changed.
     She is gone, I only need her signature on one form, I will have an attorney handle it for me. If she gives me a hard time he will take care of it. I want her as far from as I can keep her.
     Josh Groban is great. I prefer Allison Krauss myself, but there ya go. ;o)

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 5:54pm

242. Wini says:

     BigDude: I love music … any kind of music … especially when the artists pour out their hearts and souls… it’s like taping in to the Heavens …

     Peace.

     Wednesday, 26 November 2008 @ 5:59pm

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