Why you can be addicted to a sociopath
Understanding helps us heal from our painful experiences. Understanding also helps us avoid repeating those experiences. What is understanding? Understanding is knowledge gained by our higher-verbal brain that helps it to manage our lower non-verbal brain. Understanding is, therefore, a path to our own impulse control. In the next few weeks, I am going to present a series on the science of motivation. I hope that a new understanding of motivation will help you in your quest for healing.
Where does motivation come from?
The first thing to understand about motivation is that it does not originate in our higher verbal brain (the cerebral cortex). It originates in our non-verbal, lower brain or limbic system. This part of the brain performs the functions of what Freud called the unconscious mind.
The unconscious mind is very much like wind. It is unseen yet very powerful. We know it exists because we see its effects and we can feel it. Yet, we do not know exactly where its force is coming from. Just as an experienced sailor uses his understanding of the wind to travel, one who understands motivation can use its energy to go far.
Motivation starts with the anticipation of pleasure
Motivation research began with the discovery of the fact that rats will press a bar to obtain various rewards. This discovery allowed scientists to study motivation in mathematical terms. For the first time, we had a measure of desire and therefore motivation. If a rat pressed a bar many times, he showed a strong desire for a particular reward. With these measures we discovered that motivation starts with the anticipation of pleasure. Something about pleasure is rewarding in that pleasure causes behaviors to be repeated.
We soon discovered that all the things that act as rewards and that increase motivated behavior are sources of pleasure. These things are food/water, sex, entertainment, possessions, affection, social dominance and substances of abuse. When a behavior causes us to get these things, we repeat that behavior. Thus, by some brain process, an association is made between an action and its outcome—getting a source of pleasure. All rewards influence motivation by affecting the same brain process.
Pleasure is necessary for learning an association between action and obtaining reward. This association, once made, causes behaviors to be repeated. Repeated behaviors are motivated behaviors. Pleasure, therefore, is the beginning of motivation. The things that give us pleasure are necessary for survival and we physically need them. We want and crave these things and we like them because they are sources of pleasure.
Needing, wanting and liking
There is an interesting interplay between needing, wanting and liking. For example, when a person is starving, food is much needed, and thus very pleasurable. Food becomes less needed, and thus less pleasant, for someone who has already eaten. The motivation for a particular type of reward is not constant but waxes and wanes, as does the pleasure from that reward. One piece of chocolate, for instance, can be quite tasty and rewarding. But even a chocolate connoisseur will probably only experience disgust if he or she is forced to eat two pounds of chocolate at once!
Recently, scientists trying to understand addiction have discovered something truly remarkable. That is, although pleasure is required to establish a behavior pattern, pleasure is not required to maintain that behavior pattern. Wanting related behaviors can occur in the absence of pleasure and are called compulsions. The bottom line is that wanting to do something and liking to do that something are not the same.
Cues from the environment become associated with pleasure in the early stages of establishing a motivated behavior. Later, these cues trigger wanting to do the behavior even in the absence of pleasure obtained by that behavior. Addiction is the best model for understanding this aspect of motivated behavior. Long after the addict has stopped feeling pleasure from the addictive substance, things that remind him of using trigger drug cravings and the compulsion to use. The brain pathways that are active in craving, wanting and pursuing addictive drugs are the same ones involved in all motivated behavior. This is why addiction affects all motivated behavior.
Motivation and healing from a relationship with a sociopath
Where am I going with all this psychology? I am trying to convince you that your compulsion to be with a sociopath can continue even after the relationship has stopped giving you pleasure. The sociopath knows instinctively that all he/she has to do is hook you in the initial pleasure phase, and you will continue to feel a compulsion to be with him/her. Sociopaths typically change in their relationships once they sense the other person is hooked or attached.
Just as cues trigger craving in addicts, reminders of the sociopath can trigger a longing for that initial relationship. Furthermore, just as complete abstinence is the only hope for recovery from addiction, staying away from the sociopath is the beginning of recovery.
Even though the maintenance of addiction and attachment to an undesirable person are the same, I do not believe that attachment to a sociopath is a sign there is something wrong with you. The sociopath and the substances of abuse hijack a brain pathway meant to serve survival. Once hijacked, the survival system becomes a path to destruction.
If a sociopath has hijacked your attachment pathway, start to break the compulsion today. Use your conscious mind and stay away from the person, don’t answer emails or phone calls. Remove from your life as much as possible reminders of the relationship. Distract yourself with other pleasures. Lastly, do not isolate yourself from other people. Since the sociopath has hijacked your attachment pathway, if you are “starved” for affection, your craving for him/her will only increase if you are lonely.
Next week we will discuss the brain pathways and hormones involved in the love bond.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
dee says:
Thank you!
This helps me understand and forgive myself for staying with my ex for so long when I knew it caused me so much anguish and pain. Once again I am reminded that once I understand something it no longer has any power to hurt me.
dee
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Sunday, 15 April 2007 @ 11:45am
southernman429 says:
This does explain why we seem to be obsessed/addicted to the sociopaths in our lives. Even now, a year after her departure, I find myself sometimes longing to have her back in some form in my life, but I know how unhealthy that would be, and I have to remind myself of the reality of just what and who she is, and of the misery she has caused in my life.. I recall that intense feeling of love and passion and the feeling that the world was right when we first met… that pleasure was the catalyst for me allowing her crazy, mean, inconsistent behavior to continue after the “honeymoon” of the relationship was over and her devaluation had begun. With those first “hurts”, I had begun to try to change myself, perhaps thinking that in some way, I was to blame for her “hot and cold” nature, and wanted to make sure that I had my bases covered, that I wasn’t the blame of her crazy actions and insensitive assaults. I spent the last half of that relationship trying to recapture the wonderful, perfect beginning… I could have never known that I was jumping through hoops to save and recapture something that really never existed… That concept is still by far the hardest to grasp. The perfection of those early times and that total feeling of ecstasy that I felt with her when we were together…. a fantasy……. I have never had any experience in my life that gave to me such a wide spectrum of emotions… from pure joy and deep love and fulfillment to deep hurt and disappointment and sorrow. It would be interesting to know if those rats in the piece above, if given a electric shock, would they still hit the bar for the reward….. pain/pleasure,/pain/.pleasure… both are strong emotions.. both seem to sum up a life with a disturbed person with anti-social behavior.
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Sunday, 15 April 2007 @ 1:36pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
There are many examples of rats pursuit of reward in the face of punishment. Rats will bar press to receive electrical stimulation to the brain pathway I wrote about. Some rats will do so until they drop from exhaustion. Some rats prefer to receive electrical stimulation rather than eating and will starve if allowed to do so.
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Sunday, 15 April 2007 @ 10:48pm
M.L. Gallagher says:
Thanks Liane, what you’ve written adds clarity to my understanding — and with that understanding I can continue to build my beautiful life in freedom.
When I first was freed from the sociopath, I intuitively knew I could not have any contact — and contact meant mental as well as physical. By keeping my mind clear of thoughts of him, I opened myself up to the possibilities of healing.
Thanks! As always, you’ve given me great insight and great food for thought. — so much more envigorating than thoughts of him!
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Monday, 16 April 2007 @ 7:03pm
southernman429 says:
M.L.
How did you keep your thoughts clear of him? I struggle everyday with thoughts of her. It angers me that I find myself thinking about her. I have used technics such as evrytime I think of her, I say to myself.. NO.. or go away.. or I say to myself, that was my old life, this is my new one.. but yet.. it’s always there. I have been through break ups before in my life, and lost a wife to cancer as well.. I admit that I was preoccupied with her and her death for nearly 2 1/2 years be fore it stopped being a daily mind struggle. The reason it stopped?…. I met the sociopath. I’m quite afraid that the obsessing will remain with me until someone new comes into my life, but I hate that, and I feel that it certainly wouldn’t be fair to this new person, but yet again, I have talked to others who obsessed about old girlfriends until they met a new love and then things were fine and the obsessing faded away. I feel like I’m a whole person, and am quite capable of loving, although more wisely next time, but with the obsessing, I worry that I may not be as whole as I think or wish. Yes, I have a deep wound, but even with that said, I have forgiven myself, but not her completely….. It is also very difficult because she lives only 5 mins away. I avoid going near where she lives like one would avoid the plague even going out of my way to do so, but then again.. isn’t that saying something as well? Yes, I’m not “over” it, but can we ever be “over” this? Do we have to be over it to be healthy and whole? As I wrote that last question, it seems like a stupid one.. but yet, many here say that one truely never gets over this, and that the scar across the soul remains. I welcome any advice. I can honestly say that in the year since the abandonment, I have come a very long ways, and for the most part I am a happy man, but the thoughts of this woman, and what she did to my son and I seems to be with me on a daily basis.
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Tuesday, 17 April 2007 @ 4:59pm
FromtheHeart says:
I would like to reply to you southerman429. I watched my daughter go through a relationship with a sociopath/psychopath, I never have really understood the difference between the two but according to her therapist that’s what he was. She started out by sharing with her family and friends about this guy that seem to come into her life at the perfect time. She had lost her best friend in life to a suicide and had a tremendous amount of guilt inside from that. She described him as “a breath of fresh air” even though he had met her at what was probably the worst time in her life she still gave it a go. He would tell her that they were soulmates and she was the one he had searched for his entire life. I later learned from her therapist that is what they do to reel you in and make a believer out of you. How could you not stay in a relationship with someone that says those things to you? Was he “the one” for her? absolutely not! I kept listening to the things she was telling me about him and I saw them as “red flags” even if she didn’t, so as a mother wanting to protect her child I hired a PI to do a background check on this guy. I spoke with his ex girlfriend before my daughter and couldn’t believe the things I had uncovered about him. It broke my heart the day I had to bring all of this to her attention but I had to. She was heartbroken and couldn’t even believe it was info about him but it was. She ended her relationship with him and it wasn’t an easy thing to do, it never is but it had to be done. I stayed in close contact with her and her therapist afterwards. The therapist told me she had her good and her bad days but he thought she was going to be okay in the end. Her and her world were so devistated by this man that her therapist did hypnotherapy to help remove him from her memory. She has no recollection of him or their relationship any longer. I know that people say we need to learn from our mistakes and experiences in life but when you can prevent yourself from maybe a life long pain, I think it is a great alternative to the sufferage that would come with that. It all takes time for some people, healing takes time. I’m just glad that my daughter found what some consider a “quick fix” to her experience with a man that hurt her so much. The emotional scar that would have been left behind was worth the “quick fix” if you ask me. Just know countryman429 that you’re not alone and you never will be on your journey to put your life back together after someone took some of your innocence away from you and betrayed you in the worst way possible, breaking your heart. Best of Luck to you and your son in your future together.
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Tuesday, 17 April 2007 @ 6:05pm
amr says:
“Where am I going with all this psychology? I am trying to convince you that your compulsion to be with a sociopath can continue even after the relationship has stopped giving you pleasure. The sociopath knows instinctively that all he/she has to do is hook you in the initial pleasure phase, and you will continue to feel a compulsion to be with him/her. Sociopaths typically change in their relationships once they sense the other person is hooked or attached.”
This is a perfect statement of what happened to me. Thanks, Liane!
The nagging question I have is about how “instinctive” or not the sociopath’s knowledge is. Is it unconscious or completely calculated?
I know for example “my” (actually quite blue-collar low-brow beer-swilling**) sociopath had a collection of psychology books. Had he really read up on this stuff?
** Of course in the beginning he feigned otherwise in order to seem like we had lots in common!
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Saturday, 21 April 2007 @ 5:36am
sharondenson says:
I would like to reply to Fromthe Heart. You are very lucky to still have your daughter in your life. My daughter was taken in by a con artist/sociopath one year ago, and our lives have been totally uprooted. She was in college, working, had her own home, loving family, etc. Met him in May last year and began to see him even though he was married. I googled his name and found that he had been indicted by a fed. grand jury for stealing vehicles, changing VINs, and reselling the cars. He is now serving 14 months in a “country club prison” in Pensacola. He divorced his wife and 4 days later married my daughter. She’d only known him for 4 months. He has convinced her that we want to kidnap her, want to have him killed, etc. She retained an attorney and had him write us a letter forbidding any contact with her whatsoever. I might add that he has gone through a trust fund that she inherited from her grandparents, bought ANOTHER house with her name only on the mortgage, made her quit school, and now….I find out yesterday that she’s pregnant. She has told everyone but her father and me. I might add that she is sending out “blanket” e-mails to many people in the small town that we live in that are nothing but the most farfetched lies anyone could dream up. She has repeatedly told people she wants me dead, wants to watch me die, etc. This person graduated at the top of her class, class president, dean’s list scholar, and so on. She is convinced that he is the man for her. I’m sorry to go on with this, but so often I feel like this (site) is the only place I can go where anyone understands what I’m going through. Just one year ago, my daughter and I (she’s 24) were the best of friends and many people told us that they envied our relationship/friendship. And now, nothing. I’m a Believer; but right now I can’t help but feel that God’s not listening. From the Heart, cherish your relationship with your daughter. You are a really lucky person now.
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Friday, 27 April 2007 @ 11:56am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Anyone else interested in starting an online support group for parents who lost adult children to sociopaths? If so email me.
drleedom@lovefraud.com
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Friday, 27 April 2007 @ 2:40pm
naivenomore says:
Hi Dr. Leedom,
I am interested in the bio-chemical aspects and neuro-science behind both sociopathy and also addiction to a sociopath. Having had a traumatizing involvement with a sociopath a couple of years ago, I hypothesized the following, and I’m wondering what you think.
As far as charisma in sociopaths goes, my theory is this:
if a sociopath has no conscience (and no guilt), he or she might often be in a better mood – or at least appear to be in a better mood – i.e; generally more upbeat and seemingly happy with whatever is going on – than the average decent non-sociopathic person dealing with the typical ups and downs of daily life.
I have heard that when someone is feeling happy, his or her facial expressions. tone of voice, and even their pheramones and neuro-chemicals are probably more “attractive” or magnetic to others around them.
Therefore, is it possible that these happier neuro-chemicals, and aspects of body language – are responsible for increasing their charisma?
Also – if a sociopath experiences no guilt or remorse for their actions against others, and in fact does not even possess a conscience with the same rules and ability to empathize that non-sociopaths hold dear, then that would suggest that the sociopath is perfectly congruent in their happy, good moods; even when others around them are going into chaos, confusion, financial/emotional ruin, etc. as a result of the sociopath’s involvement in their lives.
And the congruency is what is so confusing and dumb-founding to the victims, because – it appears that nothing is wrong – at least from the sociopath’s view-point. I’ve heard that the congruency of a sociopath in believing their own lies is what often enables them to take a lie detector test, and pass with flying colors, because they don’t think they’re lying! (Although they are usually so intelligent, I wonder how they can not NOT know that they are lying…)
Further, let’s say I’d become addicted to the sociopath, and trusted him or her.
When doubts came up in my mind, because of tiny indications that the sociopath was in fact a liar and perpetrator of fraud, hurt, deceipt, etc.,
I would then be dealing with “brain-fog” – a sense of odd and incomprehensible self-doubt, because afterall, my esteemed and trusted new friend (or counselor or spouse or whatever) certainly seems clear-headed and confident, so he/she MUST be more level-headed, and probably more right about what’s going on than I am!
Anyway, this is what I’ve concluded after my unfortunate encounter with a prolific criminal sociopath who was an expert in intimidation and the art of the “mind-f–k”! (Excuse the bad language, but that is the best way to describe it.)
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Friday, 27 April 2007 @ 5:11pm
db11 says:
amr asks the nagging question – how “instinctive” or not the sociopath’s knowledge is. Is it unconscious or completely calculated?
My theory is that the sociopath sees others with emotional ‘handles’ displayed – those aspects of personality that they have learned are powerful manipulative tools that can be used to steer other people.
A metaphorical example might be drawn from motor vehicles. As young children, our capacity to differentiate the various types of vehicles on the road was relatively unsophisticated – maybe car, truck, motorcycle – and we just wondered about the differences. But we soon enough learned that each vehicle has identifiable attributes that make it more or less suitable for specific uses or budgets or environments, because we can see what the vehicle is and we know how to evaluate its attributes relative to our needs.
Most of us have considerably more difficulty assessing people as effectively as we see vehicles, because their attributes are less obvious. When we engage with people, especially outside our professional environments, our own feelings contribute to the interaction and have the effect of clouding our perceptions of the other person.
Sometimes we see what we feel we want to see, or perhaps we overemphasize something that triggers a feeling of fear or similar strong reaction, or we may fail to identify the meaning of an attribute that we share with another person. Metaphorically, we are back at the childhood stage of our perception of vehicles, noticing the obvious differences but perhaps wondering more than knowing what some of them mean.
Sociopaths perceptions are unclouded by their own feelings because they have none. They gather a picture of people’s attributes much more quickly, and have probably moved on to ‘test-driving’ a candidate very shortly after “hello” compared with the rest of us.
Hence, they have learned a skill and developed it to a level that far exceeds the skill of those they choose to use for their purposes. They have an instinctive advantage that is put to calculated use.
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Friday, 27 April 2007 @ 10:06pm
Fighter says:
Another point – we talk on our site about the seduction tactics of predators. Their use of mind control techniques and NLP (sold online by gurus like Ross Jeffries and Robert Greene)… many of our victims say they need to go through months of deprogramming after being involved with a predator.
The trauma, NLP and motivation factors have been controlled by someone with an agenda. Emotional rape sets in, the trauma bond kicks in and yes – brain chemistry does change.
In our opinion, far too many victims blame themselves that they should just be able to “let it go” or “move on” when they are in the throes of PTSD or unaware that they are recovering from a cultic relationship manipulated and done to them by the predator. We try to help them relieve the shame and guilt and validate them.
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Friday, 27 April 2007 @ 11:39pm
jman says:
Maybe you can enlighten me. I just finished a relationship with a man who coercred me into having a three-way with a friend of mine that later became almost a permanent feature in our relationship. Needless to say these two are together which most upseting for me. I contiune to ask why and how and have sought solace in silence of taking time out to work on getting me right. This has been and continues to be an awful situation that i find myself in. To make matters worse there have been periods in our relationship that I did not truly feel appreciated or loved. My ex was diagnosed as Bi Polar 2 in 2004, but never really exhibited any of the characteristics of the disease. Rather he became controlling, manipulative, cunning in operation of what he wanted and when with no regard for any else. I saw examples how he pushed people out at work; he would often say “I know what people want and then I take it away from them” he would say and flick his fingers when saying it and give this smile. Suffice to say, I seen the trestment that he gave his ex, I witnessed the treatment that he gave work colleagues and I’m now experiencing this myself. To make matters wose, he instilled in me that “I had a problem” and should seek professinal help. I’e been seeing someone for 12 months and I have been through this and my therapist seems to think I don’t have a problem. I’ve read Dr. Hare’s book “Without conscience” and “snakes in suits” whilst don’t want to pathologise him, it has made things quite clear that I’ve been in a relationship with somone that was not normal. Hare’s work and others have made me realise that I was in a relationship with a sociopath / pyschopath? With this in mind I have deliberatly cut off all communicatin with him. Since, he’s contacted my Dr’s offering help. I ask myself “who are you helping” or are you just trying to save your own skin. I have since run into him at several close locations around our house and I point blank refuse to speak to him. But he still keeps trying to talk to me. I have sent him a Lawyers letter but he still refuses to acknowledge this.
What advice can you give me to end this.
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Saturday, 28 April 2007 @ 5:02am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Dear Jman,
Generally speaking, healing can only begin once you are no longer living together. We are all wishing the best for you.
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Saturday, 28 April 2007 @ 8:37am
jman says:
At times I’m so get so angry with what’s happened and how I allowed this to happen. The more distance I give, the more I see and it’s only through removing myself from this pit, that I see the reality of what I’ve been in. I cry for the last 5 years, to know that I was seeking out true love (well I thought), whilst my ex was operating on a diefferent level. It’s time that cannot be replaced and that’s hardest realisation to come to terms with.
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Saturday, 28 April 2007 @ 4:42pm
sadbutwiser says:
So many red flags with this man I became involved with–he might as well have been the United Nations.
Oh, the emotional abuse he put me through–mostly through email. We knew each other just over a year, met on an internet dating site, and had only three dates. But I was SO incredibly attracted to him. A gorgeous, honey voice, just simply a beautiful man. I have never been drawn to any man like I was to him. He exuded warmth. We developed deep, emotional intimacy, and it became abusive–almost entirely through email, though we also spoke on the phone. How I ever let it continue I’ll never know, except to say that I fell so in love with him–I think I just figured out the answer. I loved him deeply, but knew he was very big trouble and he kept hurting me, subtly, over and over again…he’d hook me in with a lovely email, and then make vague promises and never fulfill them. He did this constantly and we would fight and make up, or fight and tell each other good bye. Inevitably, he or I would write again, and the cycle would continue. We both knew it was a cycle, but I knew he was manipulating me and yet I let him. I thought somehow he was falling in love with me, but I knew, on a gut level, he didn’t love me at all. He might have liked me, but what he loved–if that’s what it could be called–was having power and control over me. Our interactions became more and more volatile, and I felt battered–emotionally battered–by his manipulativeness. He took complete advantage of my empathy and nurturing personality, and now I have to try to rid myself of the feelings of love I still have for him. It is terrible to admit how much I miss him, but I do believe I’ve gathered (finally) the strength to stay away from him. I’m so glad this site exists.
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Saturday, 5 May 2007 @ 7:54pm
jman says:
My ex has now resorted to stalking. I’ve “accidentily” or so he have me believe that I’ve just happen to run into 4 x over the last two weeks. I believe his worked out my daily pattern and is just trying to make contact. Further, last week I received an email saying that “I just wish we could be friends” and “I love you” etc… To make matters even worse his contacted my Therapist and GP (Dr), offering them “help”. I feel violated and have said I don’t want contact. I’m staying away from his life and have not made contact, why can’t he stay away from mine? This is unfair, so unfair that I’m even thinking of moving out of this city …the unfortunate thing is this has been my home for the last 15 years and necessarily don’t want to leave for my family….
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Sunday, 6 May 2007 @ 4:19pm
epiphany27 says:
I can finally say that my ex is really an ex, and I WILL let him be that. Ive spent the spent the past several months analyzing who I am, what I want, and how this man was just sucking me dry. I met him late last year, and it was total bliss. It was a long distance relationship ( so I thought) with us living about 2 hours away! Some how he made time to travel to see me up to 4 times weekly with work and all. I always qeustioned how he had so much free time. He told me that the kind of work he did allowed that type of flexibility,( also a lie). I was astounded at how commited he was to getting to know me. He eventually met my children and my family. They all fell in love with him. He appeared to be shy, unassuming, humble and my kids loved him( neither of their fathers are around). He came off being this big time family guy, saying he has 3 children back home in Jamaica. As the months progressed, his attentiveness started to wane. I asked qeustions on numerous ocassions if he had anything else going on , he always responded no, that I wasnt trusting of him. So I beleived him. One sunday morning while shopping in the mall, I got a strange call. It was a woman saying she kept seeing my name on her cell phone bill and couldnt figure out why. I told her that I didnt know any one in her area( which was about a half hour from me). Some thing in my mind told me to ask her, if she knew HIM. she said she did, and that he was her fiancee! I came to find out that he did not work were he said he did. He also lived in the same state as me, with her. He did not have 3 kids. He has 6!!! With 6 women. He wasnt 35, he was 40. Every thing I knew about him was all lies/or lies from half truths. I was totally devasted. His excuse was that he knew I wouldnt have given him a shot if he told me the truth. But even after I knew the truth, I couldnt stay away. She kicked him out a month later after finding out we were still together. I thought we could put that behind us and start fresh, honest. He left one month later saying that she wouldnt allow him to see their son if he was with me. It was so abrupt. I knew he was lying. He said he was staying with his mom until he saved money for his own place. I knew that something was off. He still came to see me,I even snuck to his job( I now know were he worked ) to see if was really their!! I was tiring of playing inspecter gadjet with him. Then another call. From her.Asking me if we were still toghter. I answered honestly to all her qeustions. He came home to their house while we were on the phone, and openly talking about him , and said absolutly nothing. He called me while still at their home,asking why I was on the phone with my enemy!! He called again and told me all the things she told me( her and I was on the phone for 4 hours) was lies. I told him I was tired of being a pawn in his sick game. He stated that he had to do what he had to for his son. I hung up the phone. I was done. I got a call the next day at work saying that had been violent with her all night , arguing about me. Saying I was the liar, I was despret for a father for my children. That really hurt if nothing else did…. I think about him every day, from the time I wake…. till I sleep. I love him. But Ive come to realize he is sick. I told her she was fool to stay, but I knew it would be especiialy hard because they share a child. He never loved me. And thats ok. Im glad I was able to get away from him, with my pride, dignity( alittle tarnished) .I would lie if I said that I dont miss him. But I love myself more, and thats what carrys me through …. Thanks
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Friday, 18 May 2007 @ 7:33pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Please see the blog I wrote today. Sociopaths seem to bring more than their fair shair of children into the world.
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Friday, 18 May 2007 @ 10:13pm
loux2 says:
Dr. Leedom,
Thank you for writing this. I had kind of worked the ‘addiction’ of it all out from a physiological stand point, shared it with Oxy… and she suggested that I email it to you. In your response, You mentioned this article blog, but didn’t find it til just now. I actually just found the link on Free Forums.
Thanks again,
loux2
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 8:14am
OxDrover says:
This is a powerful article and one that I think we all should be aware of in our healing. It accounts for why we can’t “seem to get them out of our heads” even after we know they are TOXIC. Why we fall almost back to square one if we even get a “taste” of them by breaking no contact. Just like there are no drug addicts or alcoholics that can “drink or drug” in “moderation” neither can we stay in a friendship or contact with the psychopath and be whole.
This also answers why we long for the psychopath after they are physically out of our lives. Of course I at least and Iknow some others here too have “beaten themselves up” over “staying so long when I knew”—this answers why we stayed and I think takes away the “shame” at least for me in doing so. And God alone knows how much shame I felt in allowing myself to be abused and NOT doing something about it.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 9:38am
blackrose says:
When does it stop hurting, when do we stop missing what we thought we had? Some days I miss him so much, miss talking to him, and other days, I’m very, very grateful he’s out of my life.
He had never gotten physically abusive, but the potential was there, and he was so controlling. He put me up on a pedestal, and toward the end of the relationship he told me that he was the best thing I’d ever have. I’ve also learned a lot from this, I deserve to be treated with respect and loved, not controlled and manipulated.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 9:41am
OxDrover says:
Dear Blackrose,
I wish I could tell you it will stop hurting in 2 more days or 2 more months, but unfortunately there is not “time expiration” on the pain, it is different for each of us. IT WILL GO AWAY though I can tell you, but you will have to work at it. It is part of the grief process when you lose anyting that is important to you. (not just when someone you love dies) and you go from step 1 to 3, back to 2, then 4 and back to 1, etc etc it is a process but it doesn’t go 1,2, 3,, 4, 5 and bingo you are out and done. Coming to ACCEPTENCE that the thing you wanted, loved, thought you had is gone, and that you come to peace with it, the anger is gone, the sadness is gone, wanting to “bargain” to get it back, etc. all are gone and you come to a peaceful acceptence that in the case of the P it was all a “fantasy” not even real, he was not real, just a hollow picture without substance.
We can’t avoid the pain of grief, we can’t go over it, under it or around it, but must go through it. Let your anger flow, let your sadness and tears flow, let your frustration flow, and you’ll work your way through. Don’t hold it in. Come here and learn about Ps and about yourself, and lett’er rip! Post, scream, cry, and heal! ((((Big Hugs)))))
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 10:07am
learningme says:
OH MY GOODNESS…. Addiction is exactly what this feels like. I heard more messages of his and ofcourse one of them was one of the same girls as before another message was a local girl wanting to see him again to finish where they left off…Me thinking that is not good is correct right. I mean my mind is saying that is not good, the heart is saying maybe its not what I think. My heart is racing. I dont know what to do. Should i call some of these females and find out how they know my fiance or just completely walk away without a word. HELP. I feel so out of control right now…that maybe I am the crazy one. Its almost like my MIND says END THIS NOW!!!! but my heart says wait maybe all these women that called just might be calling him and saying things…that he isnt telling them anything special…wishful thinking right….HELP PLEASE
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 10:44am
eyesopened says:
Learningme
Before you do anything, take three deep breaths. Do it with me right now – it works. Breathe in all the way…breathe out. Breathe in deeply….breathe out. One more time…breathe all the way and let it out.
You can’t make any good decision if your engine is racing like this and I can tell you want to make the best decision, one you won’t regret later.
I don’t know your story yet but, for starters, all these women in the picture is not a good thing. Your instincts are right. As you go through this, remember to listen to them. They’re on your side; they’ll protect you.
This manic, crazy feeling you’re experiencing is something most of us have experienced in the early stages. You think you’re going out of your mind, but if you can calm yourself down by breathing and learning more about sociopaths, your mind will calm down, too.
At times like this, our hearts – and wishes – can be deceiving. Separate the soundtrack from the movietrack, turn it off and just look at the action.
The pull to not see what is really happening – or has happened – is so great and it’s so natural that if you’re not strong you’ll get pulled back into the undertow. Swim strong and keep the shore in sight. The shore is safety and once you get there, you can think straight.
You can do this without calling the other women and, in the end, you’ll be glad you did. You won’t have embarrassed yourself in the process and you’ll be proud of your strength and dignity.
Part of the process for some of us is recovering our dignity. You only hurt yourself more when you throw your own dignity away.
Try some more deep breaths…
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:03am
learningme says:
thank you. i havent made any calls yet and really dont want to.almost afraid to hear the truth and also like you said i dont want to embarass myself. He will know someone check his messages soon…but really no proof it was me. How should I start this. How do I just leave. Do i tell him i know about the others …. or do I just stop talking to him. he gets so angry and mean when we go thru things such as me trying to leave. I will hear all the crap about since I want to ruin his life then he will do the same to me…and things as far as i have spent money on you and no other man has done that and its because of who you are why your not with anyone good…and so forth…he gets bad…im a whore, i will just have someone in my bed like i always do….(i DONT…THAT IS JUST HIM BEING MEAN) its like im scared and hurt all at once and its a itchy feeling inside..like pins just want to come out of my skin…does that make sense
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:11am
eyesopened says:
LM
I was like you – I didn’t want it to end, I wanted everything to be okay.
If I knew what I know now and how it was going to end anyway, I’d want to be the one to call the shots. I’d want to be the one to leave and I’d leave in style.
I’d calmly collect all my things (if he was like your S, I’d probably do it when he wasn’t around so I wouldn’t be harassed) double-check that I hadn’t forgotten anything, say goodbye to any pets or anyone I loved, leave the keys and no note (he would call or email to know what happened but you’ll look cooler and more in charge if you never respond) and drive off without looking back. Hold your head high. How repulsive that someone thought they could treat you that way. Obviously, this whole thing was a huge mistake.
No anger, no remorse. Just glad I finally found the truth and, once I did, I handled it in the most self-assured way. I could always be proud of my response. But you have to calm down to get there…and you have to realize that what you see is what there is…and it really won’t get better. It’ll only get worse, I promise, and harder to leave.
That’s the mindset I’d have today.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:27am
learningme says:
so true. it should even be easier for me since we live in different states. I guess the fear of the things he says such as I will just show up if you chose to leave me or stop speaking to me. U are someone I will go to jail for and so forth. I mean how true is it, Im not sure…… so you would just suggest that I just stop taking calls though right. Let that be my decision and words to him…NO WORDS…!! its crazy cause just this morning it was the whole i love yous and miss yous and such and then to just stop….it sounds so crazy but i know the best…because this really isnt love from his end if these women are calling him with loving words as well right……
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:46am
eyesopened says:
LM
Again, I don’t know your whole story but I certainly wouldn’t be part of a circus of women where he’s the center of attention and you’re just part of the audience. I would walk away. I think, from your email, that’s what you think you should do, too.
It would be alarming to me if he said anything at all about “going to jail” over you and you should protect yourself. I’m not sure how that’s done except by perhaps calling a women’s shelter and/or your local police station and asking for their recommendation. (Donna Anderson may know.)
They may suggest a temporary restraining order, moving…I’m not sure, but none of it guarantees safety. You really do have to be very careful before you make any move if you’re at all concerned about violence and follow the advice you’re given.
But, if you’re in a situation like this where violence is threatened, you really must know this is not good.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:57am
learningme says:
True. Pretty much my story is just I met this man on line. We connected right away…He told me about a “crazy ex” of his because I found him on dont date him girl.com He claimed she did that because she was just angry. Then ofcourse I spoke to her and she had lots to say about the situation. He denied everything and I believed him and stayed with him. He has been here a few times and wants marriage and kids….swears he wants me pregnant NOW!!! One of these other women is another female he was talking to online but had never met…but now she is again saying that she loves him (according to the message) and then the others ofcourse. Deep down I believed the first other woman because he cheated on me with her…(well he was still with her too so i guess in his eyes he wasnt cheating) But even though I believed her I fooled myself enough to believe him.
His threats I dont know how serious. I have told him he shouldnt play around and say those kinds of things and he just says okay say what you want…that I just dont know him…I told him I wasnt afraid of him and he said thats what worries him. I mean it could be just idol threats. I will change my locks to my apt.. He mentioned once that He would kill me and who ever I was with if he ever knew i was with someone else.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:06pm
learningme says:
also thank you so much…..i am calming down a bit after talking (typing lol) with someone. I dont have friends really that will listen or understand…my family says im foolish that i even stayed this long…..and when i try to talk about it its just like “oh here we go again” its sad but my 12yr old boy knows this is a bad relationship..knew it was before i could admit it…
so anyways…thanks for letting me share and vent….NO ONE UNDERSTANDS what its like to go thru this…its not just “ok lets break up, i dont want to be with you anymore” and everything is fine
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:08pm
blackrose says:
To OxDrover:
Thank you, I still cry and fantasize about hitting him with my purse (I carry a really big purse, lol). But seriously, I still wake up at night thinking what’s wrong with me that he could not love me?
And then I remember it’s not me. I am not the one with the problem, I know how to love someone, I know how to be faithful, they are the ones who are not capable of having the emotions and feelings we have, and we can’t help them, because they don’t think they need any help.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:10pm
eyesopened says:
Now, he sounds like he’s “your” crazy ex.
Tell me you didn’t really find him on Don’tdatehimgirl and then dated him?
How did that happen?
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:11pm
learningme says:
because he was good to say that she was crazy and He must of called her while at my house because before he left for the weekend his profile was gone. I dont know what he threaten her….but she took it down…hes there again though…lol
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:13pm
eyesopened says:
LM
It’s nice to see you’re lol’ing…it’s a good sign. You’re on your way…you’ll get there. Don’t be surprised if you take a step back or two- it happens. Just keep going.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:18pm
learningme says:
THANKS SO MUCH FOR LISTENING…its sad that any of us have to go thru any of this……
about his threats should i just see how things go and what kind of messages he leaves before i take any action. I have a 12 yr old so im not sure what to do…(not his son)
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 12:20pm
eyesopened says:
You’re very welcome.
Well, since neither you nor I know anything about threats and potential follow-up on them, and since I don’t know him and I’m not sure how well you know him, I’d check with the police just to see what they think. Tell them what you know.
It’s abnormal for someone to issue threats. Normal people don’t do that. And so it’s a good idea to find out what can happen from people (police or a woman’s shelter) who deal with these personalities all the time.
I’m not an expert but since you have a son, I think it’s very important to model clarity, strength and wisdom, self-determination and self-protection for him.
You don’t have to check in to a shelter to get their advice. The experts there can also tell you the best way to handle this with your son. He’s watching and you want him to watch only the best.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 1:18pm
Beverly says:
Dear Blackrose, I think many of us have asked that same painful question ‘what was it about me, that he couldnt love me?’.
When I look at the way that some people treat others, it varies by the person. A highly evolved, sensitive and self respecting person, will be respectful, diplomatic and valuing of a person’s attributes, with a high degree of sensitivity. On the other hand a person who is self obsessed, manipulative and selfish will take take take, without any regard to their partner’s feelings. The closest they will get to ‘love’ will be feelings of euphoria, when they have manipulated a scenario to get something out of it. That is not love, or even close to it.
There is nothing wrong with you, or me, and with the right respectful person, they will mirror back that respect and love. I think I chose a man of such low status, that I thought he would never leave me and would appreciate and value me, how could he not?
But we are not talking about an ordinary relationship, which progresses in a normal way, in which love and trust are built up symbiotically and in which there is genuine give and take.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 1:40pm
blackrose says:
Dear Beverly:
my P was of a different background than I am, and I don’t mean money, different way of being raised. I also thought that those things should not matter to me, I did not want to be shallow, he seemed like an honest, hard working man. Totally different than the guys I dated, and even different than my ex-h, and I also thought how can he not love me, I loved him unconditionally, accepted him the way he was, and he just used me to boost his ego.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 3:43pm
Beverly says:
Dear Blackrose, Some people, including my daughter, said I could do alot better. He had no money and lived in one rented room and like you, I thought that decent basic values, such as reliability, integrity were more valuable to me. And I loved him alot too and bent myself out of shape accepting him as he was. Trouble was, he would not accept who I was, he had a different agenda. If he had been a rich good looking guy, I probably would have taken it less painfully.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 3:59pm
eyesopened says:
Hi Learningme
Just checking on you….how are you doing?
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 7:13pm
tmassar says:
I have a question. What is the difference between recovering from an addiction to a relationship with a sociopath (in my case an extreme narcissist), and recovering from just a “normal” relationship where things simply didn’t work out and you part ways peacefully? Don’t people who leave each other, who are NOT disordered, also experience a feeling of missing the other person so badly that it’s like an addiction? What is the difference?
Some of you know my story from other postings, but my ex-N (and I’m still battling the no-contact thing, what with the divorce still pending) doesn’t want to give me up. He is seeing a therapist and willing to admit to all his wrong-doings. But I’m just beyond going back anymore – too much betrayal and abuse and lies. If he can modify his behavior and do better with someone else, good for him, but I’ve had enough. So why am I still questioning my decision.
The issue of the addiction plagues me. I’ve been separated 2.5 months now and every single day is a battle for me, I have to have the same conversations with myself, my friends & family, to convince myself that it IS for the best that I leave. That even if he improves, it doesn’t matter anymore. That I haven’t somehow been too hard on him and judged too quickly, and thrown out a 13-year marriage that could have been salvaged. Why does part of me still fear having regret over cutting him off.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 7:15pm
eyesopened says:
Hi Tmassar
Your question: “Don’t people who leave each other, who are NOT disordered, also experience a feeling of missing the other person so badly that it’s like an addiction? What is the difference?”
I’m not an expert on addiction. In fact, the only addiction I’ve experienced is the one with the S and now I can understand how overpowering an addiction can be. I believe the neuropathways in our brains have been altered in the process so we’re fighting against our own chemicals.
I think part of the difference may be that people who aren’t addicted to their partner are not overwhelmed by desperation to reconnect at any cost even at the expense of their sanity, their emotional stability, their children/pets, their work or friendships.
They don’t have to struggle to put on the brakes. This addiction, like all others, can cause a sense of powerlessness over our feelings or actions. Someone who’s addicted to ice cream (ok…maybe me sometimes) will struggle knowing that there’s still ice cream in the freezer when someone who’s not addicted can forget about it.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 7:37pm
OxDrover says:
TMASSAR, glad to see you here. MY opinion, and that is all it is is an “opinion” is that when we have a normal “this isn’t working out” thing with someone who is not an N or a P (and BTW I think your N is a P rather than just an extreme N, because an “extreme N” =a P) anyway, when you break up with a normal relationship, you may be angry at them, or you may be sad, but you won’t FEEL BETRAYED and USED.
It is the feeling of betrayal, the feeling of being disrespected, gaslighted, mindf&@ked, when they “at first” were “everything” you thought you wanted on a silver platter—I think it is realizing that it ISN’T like a normal break up.
Your “symptoms” that you are describing sound to me like the “addicted” problem, otherwise it wouldn’t be THAT hard. I’ve had several relationships over my adult life time that lasted from one to four years (never married them but close) and each of those break ups was somewhat painful, but I am still FRIENDS with all of these men, we still keep in contact, we respect and LIKE each other. None of these men ever BETRAYED me, or called me names, or used me, or LIED to me. My divorce was painful (my husband was mentally ill) and his father was a psychopath and using him and me, but I don’t feel that my X betrayed me or used me, or never loved me, I don’t and never did hate him. I was never so angry at any of these break ups that I lay awake nights wondering how I could “get even” with them. Then realizing that my mind was twisted and that wasn’t “Me”—because I’m not like that, vengeful.
The FAKENESS of their “love” is another thing that is painful.
Your X may be “playing the game” with therapy and so on, but I will bet the farm against a nickle that he is just using that for another manipulation tool to get back with you. I don’t have to have a crystal ball, or be a witch or a gypsy to make that prediction. I think everywoman and man here will second me on my “prediction”—it is WHAT THEY DO.
Tmassar, your marriage can’t be saved, it NEVER WAS. It was only your fantasy that he presented to you, he was never what he pretended to be. He was always what he IS. A liar and a cheat. They can’t comprehend normal emotions and bonding….it is all about them. I am sure right now that he has been taken away from his “security” he is frightened and scared that he may have to go out into the world to find another victim, and you were so willing for so long, it made him feel secure to have you there.
Second guessing yourself is normal though, I think we all do it, I know I did with every psychopathic relationship I ever had, but in retrospect, NO CONTACT is the only way to “win”
I’m proud of you for holding to your resolve, and it will strengthen and the second guessing will decrease. When I am “making” a decision I stress out more until it is “final” and then I usually relax and dont’ look back. (((hugs))))
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 7:46pm
tmassar says:
Hi OxD!!! Great, great to hear from you. I hope you’re well.
“He was always what he IS.” – what a great line – it’s so ironic, just today he emailed me to say “I am not what you think I am” (ie, with respect to his philandering) – i found that such a tragic statement coming from him.
Yeah, extreme N = P – this made me laugh out loud.
Indeed he was secure with me – I offered him everything – emotional sanity, the appearance of a normal healthy relationship, a second income, and all his creature comforts. And I let him do his own thing, I tried not to make demands because when I did, there was hell to pay.
I write these things and I think, what HAPPENED to me, that I would even doubt myself???
I feel sorry that he suffers these disorders, that he probably can’t have what he wants: a normal life. It’s a tragedy, no matter how much bad stuff he did.
But you’re right – I do feel betrayed, used, confused, hurt in a way that has no clarity to it. And remaining his friend – I can already see it’s impossible.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 7:58pm
henry says:
Hi Gang….. Learning me—– My x made threat’s to me, once when I told him he had to leave and he could’nt take the car. He said if I don’t get the car I WILL ROCK YOUR WORLD. I was kinda stunned at that comment, after all I had done to make him human. Well he did rock my world, one stone at a time. It took almost three year’s of wanting to believe him, trying to love him. I gave him my soul. I became empty and of no value to him, he had drained me of all life. So he left, and now is with his next victim. The last thing he said to me was. ( Actually I am a honest person until I get f—ked over). Learning Me- Please listen to Eyes Opened and read every post. Why would we want to be with someone that make’s cruel threat’s? Love does not hurt. You have come to a place in your life where it is TIME to move on. I was like you, just a big bundle of nerve’s, I never wanted to kill myself but dying would of been better. I just wish I had found this website along time ago, then I would not have kept taking him back. The last time I even begged him to come back, I said if you don’t come back that means you HAVE been using me all this time. It was the final realization that all my doubt’s were right. It was hard to accept. But educate yourself about personality disordered people and in the process you will find yourself again. Because he will leave you in the end, I regret that I was the one that got left the last time. I wish I had left him sitting at the bus station like the homless drifter he is…..
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 8:57pm
OxDrover says:
DEar Tmassar,
I hope that you can stay with your resolve now, but there may come times that you start to doubt again, and if you do, come here and read and re-read, and your strength will return.
Yea, it is a shame that ANY creature would be in this world totally ALONE and they are alone because they can’t bond to anyone in a normal sense of needing and loving another person. BUT that is NOT our responsibility to give them sucor because they’ave had bad luck in the genetic and environmental pool. Just like a rattle snake is poison, and while you may feel empathy that he doesn’t have a lot of “friends” because of that, no matter how much you love it, or pet it, it is NOT GOING TO GROW FUR AND BECOME A PUPPY. Your soon to be X husband is the same way, no matter how much you pet him or love him, he isn’t going to gorw a conscience and start loving you. It just AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN.
Good luck with your divorce, and hey, watch your back, whenhe realizes you are really REALLY NOT coming back he may become vindictive and try to screw you over in the settlement—NEVER LET YOUR GUARD DOWN FOR A MINUTE, HE IS WHAT HE IS….and you know what THAT is!
((big hugs))))
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 9:05pm
Wini says:
Dear henry: Think of it this way. When you met, didn’t you think he was your soul mate, the best relationship you ever had in your life … never arguing, always liking the same things, couldn’t believe your luck that someone out in the world was that compatible with you? Yeah, then after they got what they wanted from us … they moved on … and not with the ones that were behind the scenes either … someone new … All of a sudden, there’s a crack in the fascade. The once happy relationship is causing some sort of friction, except the friction doesn’t come up at an appropriate time, it comes out of no where … out of the blue. So we question them if there is something wrong. Answer: NO, nothing is wrong. So we believe them on that answer and we’re still going strong on the relationship, just thinking we’re hitting this rock patch, or our partner is off in their emotions … give them space … give them room. When all along, they’re dragging us in front of a train and we didn’t even know we were on the tracks. That’s why it’s so devastating. Get it. That’s what all these Ex’s did to us … the Madonna trip using people to step over to get what she wanted. And any Madonna fans out there … don’t shoot me … it was her quote in a magazine years ago how she used everyone to get where she is. So don’t shoot the messenger please.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 9:16pm
henry says:
Wini– Like I have said before, he left here in much better shape then when he came here. New teeth. a driver license for the first time in 10 years. Insurance in his name. A 2000 ford ranger, paid for! A better paying job! He even took my clothe’s!!! And all the hanger’s!!! This website is priceless. NOBODY understand’s the damage. Only those that have been with and survived the evil’s of the dememted physco’s understand. btw Madona is no fan of mine, and she is getting divorced, again. I hope her X get’s million’s……………
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 9:35pm
henry says:
P. S. sorry but I cant spell the best!!!lol and speaking of his white ford ranger, man I never knew their where so many white ford ranger’s! when I see one I get a little panic attack………..not because it might be him but because I had to sell my new truck and am now driving a 95 chevy…..
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 9:40pm
Wini says:
Dear henry: Same thing here … took the clothes and my hangers … except this guy left all his stuff at my house. 15 years of his marriage all through my garage, my basement, attic extra rooms is all his stuff. Incredible. I’ve got his family pictures of his parents, his siblings when they were kids, his own kids, his ex, their family albums, he left his clothes, shoes, winter stuff, summer stuff, underwear, etc. etc. everything of his is here. Now my stuff and what he stole, that’s a different story. He even took house warming gifts to me that I got when I first moved into my house after buying it. He left all his stuff and took thousands of dollars of my appliances etc. Now his new wife can use my stuff. I had to stand on the side of me when I first figured out what was going on. That’s why I didn’t know it was over, all his clothes are still hanging in the closet, his shoes were here, his sneakers, his coats etc. etc. When I figured it out … he left all the stuff that doesn’t fit anymore. He dropped a few pounds with her. Either she doesn’t cook as good as I do or they can’t buy food like I could. But, how sneaky. He left everything behind that he couldn’t wear anymore … and then again … he’s using her credit cards behind her back too buying all his stuff for himself. This guy definitely needs to be in an orange jumpsuit. But, that too, is neither here nor there.
Peace. I’m doing my breathing right now. Inhale, exhale.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 10:43pm
henry says:
Inhale-exhale—-Yes orange jump suit’s and locked up with a 500 pound dude named Bubba!! The thing’s that he stole from me that I valued the most was my integrity my identity my self esteem. Three year’s he stole time that I should have been productive and focused on me and my two son’s and grandchildren. I often wonder what I would say to him if he asked me if he could come back. i would tell him to go talk too my two son’s, convince them that you want to be part of this family, convince them that you love me and want to be with me. Talk to my daughter-in-law that bought you christmas present’s and tried to make you feel so welcome, convince her that you love me and you will change. Talk to my two grandson’s that have asked “where is your friend” explain too them why I became uninvolved in their life the past few year’s because I was trying to love you…trying to figure you out. Convince them and then maybe i will talk too you….He would never look them in the eye, if they came over when he was here he would dissapear. He knew he had me fooled—he knew he was only going to be here until I was used up. He knew what he was doing.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:17pm
henry says:
I guess I am in a mood tonite. My life was pretty full before he came into it. Yeah I had some issue’s, some baggage that I had packed away. I was living life, workin hard, involved in so many thing’s. At 50 was content with my self. Yeah like most people I alway’s thought somewhere out there is that one special somebody, but I figured he was probably in Argentina and we would never meet. I am a smart guy, I know about having a crush on someone. I know about lust. I know my chance’s are slim of meeting the right person. I never was obsessed with finding this soulmate, I kept busy. So this physco dude comes into my life. I wasn’t in love with him, actually i kinda kept him at bay for awhile because he was kinda strange. He did it so slowly, he listened to what I said. He wasn’t concerned about what I said, he didn’t care about how I felt. But he did listen and he slowly became what I told him I wanted. So now I got it figured out. He is a predator. He is gone. I don’t ever want to his creepy ass again. But here is the deal. I kinda liked having my illusion for awhile. It was nice having a comrade. It was nice for about 3 months. It took almost 3 years to rid my self of him. But that first 3 month’s kinda woke something up in me. And now I have this big empty feeling. Yeah I can feel it up with work and family and living a good life. But I am capable of loving someone completely, I am capable of sharing a good life with someone. Those 3 month’s of being with my soulmate where wonderfull. damn I hate him……
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:41pm
Wini says:
henry: they need to read the book “A New Earth”. That’s their only hope (I’m hoping it will help) to stop living from their big egos. Tolle explains how people get carried away in their egos. If he ever calls, don’t even play around just to hear what he has to say and start talking with . Hang that phone up. If he comes over while you’re home, do not let him in. Call the cops if you have to, but stay away from him. Same with me. They will do the same thing over and over and over again. Remember the parable about the turtle and the scorpion? The scorpion wanted to get across the raging river. A turtle came cruising by. The scorpion asked the turtle if he could jump on his back and the turtle could swim across the river so the scorpion could get to the other side. And the turtle said “NO”. The scorpion said why, I just want to get to the other side of the river. The turtle said “NO” if I let you jump on my back you will sting me and I will die. The scorpion said “no I won’t sting you, I promise, I just want to get to the other side of the river and the water is too fast and furious. The turtle said “NO, your a scorpion and if I do this for you, you will sting me and I will die”. The scorpion said, listen Turtle, I am desperate here, I just need a ride to the other side of the river and I promise, if you give me a ride, I will not sting you, I promise, I just want to get to the other side and your my only salvation of getting across this river. So the turtle said “OK, jump on and I’ll take you across the river”. The scorpion was so thrilled and jumped on the back of the turtle. The turtle swam to the other side of the river with the scorpion on it’s back. All the way over the scorpion was telling the turtle, boy I was in real trouble and if it wasn’t for your help I would have been tuck on the other side of the bank, you are such a nice turtle, I don’t know how to thank you, this is great where almost there. The turtle swam close enough to the other bank of the river so the scorpion was close enough to jump off. The scorpion was so grateful he said “turtle, thank you, thank you, thank you … I am so grateful for you doing this for me, you are the best turtle in the world”. STING! The turtle said, why did you sting me, you promised you would NOT sting me. Now I am going to die. Why did you do that? And the scorpion said “BECAUSE, I AM, A SCORPION”.
Peace.
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:48pm
henry says:
great analogy Wini…….thanks for sharing sometime with me tonite i am off to bed peace
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Thursday, 10 July 2008 @ 11:53pm
Wini says:
Sweet, sweet henry: You still have what you loved the most about him. Think about it. Any time you want to remember that love that you had with him … all you need to do is look in the mirror. It’s still there. That love will look back at you. It’s you, IT’S ALWAYS BEEN YOU, not him. He mirrored you. That’s what you feel in love with and that isn’t gone. You are what he projected back at you. Peace sweet heart, peace.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 12:00am
Beverly says:
Hi Wini & Henry. Using that analogy, we havent ‘lost’ the essence of our love. When I hear people say ‘I gave you my soul’ – the soul cannot be given or corrupted. Some things still lay perfectly in tact after the chaos. I know that I am still perfectly capable of loving to my best – that has not changed. I still have my mental faculties – that has not changed. My emotional functioning has not changed. The only really big thing that has changed for me, is the way I perceive other people.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 12:51am
Beverly says:
Oh and the major thing that has changed for me, is my ‘connection’ to God has been strengthened.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 12:52am
Wini says:
Dear Beverly: Me too … my connection with God is more intense. I love that … and it was because of them coming into our lives. God does work in mysterious ways? We were looking at it wrong … after we get past the pain … and find the lessons to be learned … it was reconnecting with God that our pain guided us to. Beautiful. Absolutely, beautiful. Then Tolle’s book explains how to reconnect with God. Even better. I remember talking with my spiritual adviser. He’s down south. Said “Wini, I don’t care how much it cost you … you were lucky, lucky to know to reconnect to God”. The price you paid was nothing compared to the gift you received. He is right. Getting past the human illusion and reconnecting to our spirituality is so much more fullfiling. He reminded me, as did Tolle, some people go their entire lives down on Earth never reconnecting to their spiritual being. But, Tolle explains that they learn it in another realm after they leave here. So it’s all on our time frame. Our EX’s will get there … just not as quick as we are getting there. That’s the good news.
Peace Beverly, Peace.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 9:14am
OxDrover says:
Bev,Wini, and Henry,
This P-experience is not a total loss if we don’t look at it as a “loss” of anything REAL, and in truth, it wasn’t real–it just for a time SEEMED real, but the “loss” of that pseudo-reality can turn around and give us a BETTER REALITY and a chance to grow. Emotionally, psychologically, and spritually.
When I was involved with the P-XBF for those 8 months THAT WAS ALL I focused on. At firt it was the “happiness” and fun, the anticipation of maybe a whole lifetime of fun with this guy, only getting better—but when it started to fall apart when I started to see his “feet of clay” and he became hyper-critical, the pain was as intense as the earlier joy had been.
The trigger that made me kick him to the curb was I had stopped by to visit with him on my way back from TExas with Son D, and all the way home after we left I cried. My son was driving and as we passed the freeway turn off to the home of a psychopath that had been a “friend” to my late husband, I realized that BF was JUST LIKE that guy—I started crying uncontrollably and realized then that there was NO HOPE for the relationship. A few days later, when BF came to my house to give me my Christmas present (which I gave back to him) and told him it was over. It is funny, he cried like a baby and wanted to “be friends” (he always wants to “be friends” with his Xs) just in case he runs low on NS he can just pop in to see one of them.
The next few months were the usual post-P experience we all go through. I am just glad I didn’t spend a great deal of time with him. I guess it was 4 months of “heaven” and 8 of “hell”
But in the end of all of this, I realize that I have something better andmore solid than an addiction to an illusion, I have a wonderful REALITY, a deepened spirituality and a peace and tranquility that he will NEVER HAVE. His one child is unfortunately, just like him, and drug addicted as well, and all the times he and his x-wife have bailed the kid out, it has never done any good, he goes right back into it. Of course the P-XBF thinks that HE isn’t addicted to anything, because he is only a SECRET drinker. Personally I liked him better when he was drunk than when he was sober. I just didn’t know he was drinking that much–until I started finding hidden bottles of vodka. LOL
Nah, I think I will take a wonderful reality any day over a painful hollow-gram of a hologram! LOL
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 9:45am
eyesopened says:
Speaking of addiction, as much as I love Lovefraud, I feel like I’m getting addicted to it. Has anyone else felt that? I’m not sure I like feeling so compelled to check in here. Maybe I’ve switched my addiction from him to here.
Hmmmm….
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 9:51am
OxDrover says:
Yes and no. How is that for a “definite maybe”? LOL
I think it is sort of like an AA for victims of the sociopaths.
We were addicted (in some ways) to a “narcotic” of sorts, the high we felt with them. Yea, we are now “clean and sober” but there is always the tendency that we might “fall for it again” and so we continue to learn and reinforce our “sobriety” by communicating with others, and also we help those that are just “getting sober” or that are contemplating sobriety.
Healing is a journey, not a destination, just as “getting clean and sober” is a journey for someone addicted to alcohol or drugs or whatever.
I think the “test” is do you have a life outside of lovefraud? Do you think about other things besides recovery?
I’m here a lot, but I’m retired, and I work on the farm and other things and when I come inside to sit down and rest, or to hydrate myself, I just check in. I can put in 8 hours a day of work, it just takes me 12 to do it! (with breaks in between) LOL
Things sill occasionally “trigger me”—even as well as I was doing I got triggered by an encounter with my mother a couple or three weeks ago (retirement takes away your concept of “time”) LOL so I do know that I can “fall off the wagon” when I least expect it. Getting a daily dose of strength and good ideas, etc. and feeling that my posts DO help others gives me a sense of accomplishment, as well as reinforces my “sobriety.”
I also realize now that I am not “craving” a relationship with a man like I did. I am not as vulnerable as I once was, but in all relationships we have there are bumps in the road and I get strength to handle them from lovefraud. I am pretty new at setting boundaries for those in my closer circle, and that is an anxiety producing thing. By coming here and WRITING about boundaries and how important they are, I reinforce MYSELF. I guess in someways it is like journeling.
I’ve always found that when I am TEACHING something I learn MORE than the students I am teaching if that makes any sense.
I get a feeling of growth and uplifting of spirits in exchanging posts with people I have seen down on their knees like I was, and now they are standing tall. What a short time ago that Henry and Lilygirl were as “crazy” as I was when in the depths of despair, and now they are starting to stand tall and help lift up others. HOW WONDERFUL IS THAT!!!
What about the Bird and the Baby Bird! How wonderful to see how Bird has progressed in the last three months from total despair to being the proud mother of her child, what strength she has shown in her road to recovery from the depths of despair she was first in when she got dumped by her “soul mate”—-Gosh, was that just three monts ago? It is only one year ago (well two weeks short of a year) that I was still in HIDING from the Ps before they were arrested! Look how far I have come in that year! My life is back on track. How ungrateful for the suport I received from here I would be if I didn’t offer a hand out and a hand up to some newbie coming here in total chaos and craziness, filled with pain at disocvering their “soul mate” was a psychopath. Telling them that IT WILL GET BETTER.
If that’s “addiction” to lovefraud, so be it. It isn’t the “only” life I have, or the only thing I think about, but it is comforting in several ways. The lovefraud peeps aren’t my only friends, or my only interests. But for now I think I’ll stay. (((hugs))) to you all!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:06am
Wini says:
Dear OxDrover: I agree with your YES and NO answer.
Hey, for those still grieving after they are gone … they were mirroring us. I believe that is the highest form of a compliment. Anyway, just lessons to learn as we go through life … meeting people such as the (obnoxious of the world) … gets us to our true spiritual selves … aka closer to God. Not a bad trade off if any one would cares to view it the way it is. More pain in our lives on the path to God … the closer to God we get.
Peace.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 12:19pm
henry says:
Eyes Opened. I understand what you say about feeling addicted to Lovefraud. If it weren’t for this website, I probably would have taken back the other addiction (him), and from the knowledge I have gained here I will not continue with the same damaging pattern’s. This is a place for me to re-affirm myself that , yes he is a sociopath. Sometime’s I just need to vent or journal. The few friend’s that I have don’t understand. I hope someday I can move forward and not feel the need for this website. But eyes opened (you) are helping me and other’s recover. I have become attached to many screennames here and their story’s. I wonder what is going on with rriinnaa, and what in the hell is LilyGirl doing? Yeah we might be addicted, but I like to think I have found a safe place to heal. I am not here as much as I was in the beginning- but I still need my daily fix of lovefraud peeps. And I find some good humor here, sometimes I wonder if Beverly and I were dating the same jerk. And Baby Bird, wow that’s so cool to be aware of her struggles and the birth of her baby. I could go on and on about what this website has done for me. Thanks Donna and the rest of the gang!!!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 6:20pm
reddroze24 says:
This is the most informative piece of information I have been wanting to receive. Thanks so much. Now I see that there is a life out there for me after this destruction!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 8:29pm
eyesopened says:
Hi Ox, Henry and Free
Thanks for your insight, and thank you Henry for your sweet words. They’re so kind.
Like you, I’m so grateful for Lovefraud and love my friends here, but I want to question any addiction I set up….and, interestingly, I think part of me is addicted to LF. It’s not bad, it just feels like there might be rite of passage at some point.
I did take a break right before New Years because I wanted a clean slate but then I dropped back in again just to see what was going on with everyone and…got hooked. It’s a good thing on one hand; it proves that LF is helpful and interesting and friendly. It really gave me clarity.
But, now it may be transitioning into a hook for me, rather than just transitioning into a healthy recovery from the S and I’m mulling over what that means. It’s not a bad hook; it’s just a hook now and I try to fight my hooks.
And, I have wondered if, because of where I am in my recovery, if by continuing to relate to my S experience, through the thoughtful posts and comments, if I’m not just connected to this site, but in some unconscious, comfortable way, to him…which I don’t want.
The mind is so complicated and can get so entangled. I haven’t come to a conclusion; it just feels like maybe this is something I need to look at for myself. It’s an interesting position to be in.
I need to figure out for myself when there’s a healthy time to stay and when, like other little baby birds, I have to tuck all my new strength and knowledge under my wings and fly into the future without keeping tethered to the past.
I may have to take my own advice and just leap. I think it isn’t now but maybe soon down the road.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 8:46pm
eyesopened says:
Free..
Yes. I think you’re right. The beauty of it is that it’s all a very gentle, organic evolution into the future. It’s like a butterfly emerging from its chrysalis, hopeful and….like you…free.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 9:21pm
OxDrover says:
In a way the posts and blogs are like a “serial”—Tune in again tomorrow fans, and see what happens with ……” except instead of a psychopath for a “hero/ine” you have the people recovering and you know their stories and you want to find out if they are doing well or continuing doing well. Maybe that is an “addiction”—or not, but it I don’t think is harmful.
I think it takes a great deal of time to process all the crap inside, not just getting to the stange that you CAN get out of the insanity and START to heal.
I’m seeing new things about myself that I never saw before–everyday. Good things and things that I would like to change. Much of the time those things come from a post here that makes me trigger on to “Ah ha” and then I think about it on a personal level as it applies to me.
I used to get so frustrated with my mother, from childhood,, she would “mind read”—tell me what I was thinking that she didn’t like…and most if not every time she was dead WRONG. I would try to “defend” myself and say “no, that’s not what I am thinking NOT at all” and Then she would accuse me of being a liar on top of “not thinking right”–DUH! Now, I realize that NO one can tell you how you think, they may say “you seem sad” or “you seem happy” but they can’t KNOW for sure.
How do you defend yourself from the “thought police?” You can’t of course, but it puts YOU on the defensive. I realize now that I shouldn’t have even tried to “defend” myself from that, but I got hooked inot it and I did try to defend myself from unjust accusations. That same behavior carried over to dealing with the Ps—
Now I do not J.A. D. E. Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. It’s an easy concept to grasp AFTER you have seen it (it isn’t original from me of course) but it is sooo GOOD to know it. To use it to protect yourself from unjust accusations. It isn’t second nature to me yet, though, and so I have to stop myself when I start to JADE. It is like setting boundaries, first you have to determine when you need them…..when you start feeling like you are walking on egg shells around someone, or they are doing anything that makes you uncomfortable. Some people seem to do this automatically, but not having learned to set boundaries in a healthy manner when I was a child and a young adult (with family or people who are close) I have had to learn to do so. It is a painful process frought with uncertinty on my part. I don’t want to be “unreasonable” and since it is all shades of gray, not so much black and white, I have to determine by each individual circumstance what is “reasonable” and what isn’t.
I am learning though to do so and NOT feel guilty. I am learning to take care of myself instead of neglecting myself to take on responsibilities for others that they should be doing for themselves.
I’m learning to “listen” to myself—to know when to push myself to do something and when not to. I realized today that I had been procrastinating over something I needed to do, and procrastinating, finding anything to do instead of what I knew I needed to do…so finally I “made” myself do it. I did it, it took about 10 minutes and it was over, but for some reason (I’m not sure why) I just didn’t want to do it. There was a time when procrastination would have been okay, but that time is past now, and I need to do the things I need to do in a timely manner unless there is a REAL reason not to.
So I know that I still have a long way to go before I can say “I’m pretty well there”—I know I am a lot closer now than I was a year ago that’s for sure, but it does take TIME and work. Time to contemplate our toes if that is what we want to think about to zone out, and time to quietly listen to our inner desires and fears. Time to set priorities and times to not set priorities.
Though I “have come a long way, baby,” I do realize that when you look at the continual crisis and trauma I have been through over the past four years since my husband died July 14, 2004, one year is little enough time to process all of it.
Just making the 180 degree turns I have made by itself, cutting out the Ps from my life, is a big enough “change” to cause plenty of stress. Life does go on though, and we have to keep living, keep breathing, keep doing laundry, keep mowing the grass, keep cooking, and so on. I have been fortunate that I have been able to retire from a stressful job so I didn’t have to keep working while I processed all of this insanity, and I admire those of you who have kept on working and raising kids and playing soccer mom while your inner worlds are falling apart. It all takes energy and stamina.
I’m just grateful to God for being alive and having the chance to heal and to have the family and friends I do have that DO understand, and for the peeps here at LF that REALYY understand from a first hand experience. ((((big hugs to you all)))
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 9:39pm
henry says:
Eyes and Free Yes you both make a very good point. I think coming here comfort’s me but at the same time keep’s me connected to the pain. Several week’s ago my son said I was spending too much time focusing on what (HE) did to me and I just needed to get over it, get off the computer and start living again. I think about (going out) gettin involved with someone, maybe I need to find some new friend’s. But I still feel numbed by my experience with the Boogerman. I think I am still healing. But YES I understand what you are saying, thank’s for expressing that Eyes, it is something to ponder……..
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 9:54pm
eyesopened says:
Thanks, Henry.
And, you know, I wonder about some of the other screen names. I, too, wonder about Riinnaa.
Do you remember Sorrow, the Danish woman? That was such a sad name for me to see and she was so distraught and confused. I was so worried about her and hoped that she was still out there reading and catching herself.
It’s the ones who are so raw and in such pain, isn’t it, that cause us to fear for their safety and welfare. LearningMe is another one.
Who else haven’t we heard from lately?
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 10:14pm
henry says:
Eyes. I have only been here three month’s, i dont remember sorrow but have read some of here past post. There have been comment’s from people all over the world. Sometime’s I think maybe I am just a poor loser and don’t like rejection and I am just trying to find a bad label for (him). But all the strait’s fit him to a T. So I have to reread trait’s of a sociopath, trait’s of Borderline. Coming here confirms my conclusion’s. Knowledge is Power…….and it’s better than wasting my time on Gay.com, talk about predator’s!!!!!!!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 10:40pm
eyesopened says:
Henry
I know what you mean; there’s a lot of crossover and we’re not professional therapists and they are confusing. Sometimes, I think it’s just easier to call them a Cluster B…it saves a lot of time and trouble figuring it all out.
Hmmm. If it’s alright with you, may I point out that he lied, cheated, took financial advantage of you, hurt you and didn’t care and, lest we forget…he kicked sweet little Miss Puss to the curb. Besides, didn’t your sons not trust him or am I making that up?
I know you and your postings. You’re in no way a poor loser. You are a wonderful spirit who is loved by everyone here.
Oh, yes….we’re much healthier than Gay.com. No predators would dare jump on here…they’d be pummeled to pieces.
Speaking of predators, were you around when that predator SecretMonster was on here? He was one cool customer…or at least played one pretty well. He’d probably love knowing that I’m talking about him but I can’t resist. He had to take all his postings down awhile ago…I think his wife must have found out. If so, I’m thrilled. SecretMonster…are you out there?
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:00pm
henry says:
I am still pondering your feeling’s of being addicted to this website. I will always remember this as a place of healing, ( My Life Lesson), there are screenames that will forever be part of my life. I often wonder how we would connect if we met in person. And in away the anonomity is safe. I think I will come here as long as I recognize screenames. We all have this connection of needed to be validated and understood and sharing our experience with disordered people. I think we will all leave this place in our own time frame. I can see that I am healing, growing and learning. No I won’t be here forever, but I am not ready to leave yet…….
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:09pm
henry says:
secret monster? no I didnt know about him, tell me more
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:12pm
eyesopened says:
Well, SecretMonster ventured on to this site and engaged in dialog with some of us. His posts are still on here somewhere. He tried to come off very reasonable and I’m sure he thought he could finesse us all but he didn’t stand a chance.
He wrote what looked like a poem at one point until someone pointed out that she recognized it..they were words to a song she knew.
I thought he said he was posting from Saudi Arabia but his website said Jamaica.
His website was interesting…secretmonster.com…because it gave a little glimpse into a socio’s life. Of course, if he’s a socio, his whole blog could have been a lie.
I would check in on it every once in awhile – his wife was supposed to be wealthy and he was just stringing her on, he didn’t love her just her money and he was going to play one of his female friends who was attracted to him but he was going to do only because it would give him power and everything was infused with drama and near-misses…sort of like self-absorbed middle manager meets James Bond.
The last few of his postings on his blog and here indicated he was going to just leave his wife…and she’d cry…(we suggested he send her to our site for comfort and help) but he’d make her think it was all her fault.
Then…poof!…he’s gone. He pulled all his blog postings except for the last one claiming that the jig was up….talk about cliff-hanger
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:26pm
OxDrover says:
Sometimes people come here when they are down, but then the cycle repeats itself and they go back and then don’t come here for a while. I “met” Sorrow on another blog a while back, she is a sweet girl and in a great deal of pain. There is a thread on here about “you have to save yourself” that I think it was Donna did, can’t remember exactly who (please forgive my faulty short term memory) anyway, that is the way it is, YOU must heal yourself, work through your anger, work through the projection, the sadness, the malignant hope and save YOURSELF.
Sometimes people or animals even who are in great pain, strike out at the person who would help them. Cops know this about domestic violence disputes when they arrive and the husband is beating on the wife and they go to arrest him, the wife turns on them and starts defending her abuser. It’s just the way the cycle of abuse goes.
Most of us have brushed aside the red flags when we saw them, continued to try to “fix” the situation with our abusers. We wanted to have the pain stop, but we just couldn’t give up on the malignant hope of somehow regaining that “honeymoon” period when the abuser was sooooo SWEET and made us soooooo Happy.
Getting out of the FOG is not easy, because in order to do it we have to give up on a dream that we have held dear. My dream with my P son was that he would repent, get out of prison and live a law abiding life…NOT GONNA HAPPEN. I had other dreams with other Ps and they all were fruitless wastes of my energy to try to make them “come true.”
It was only when I finally started looking inward for my “savior” that I found I could SAVE MYSELF. I had to stop looking outward for something or someone else to make my dreams come true. Maybe the dream for my son wasn’t going to come “true” but it didn’t have to be the end of my life. Sure it would have been “nice” if my son had repented and really had found Jesus in prison, but it was only a hologram, not the real thing. When I started listening to REALITY it hurt. But only through reality, recognizing that we can give up that fantasy and still live, still be happy, heal from the pain and go on with a real life.
The common denominator in all my P relationships was that I did not set appropriate boundaries, because I was AFRAID to set those boundaries, because when you set a boundary you have to enforce it and IF someone crosses that boundary you have to get them out of your life—and I was so afraid I would have to do that. I couldn’t imagine life without my son.
And then my mother, and while she does not fit anything in the way of the Psychopathic check list to qualify as a psychopath, her behavior, and I now realize always has been, so enabling and so punishing if thwarted that it approximates psychopathic abuse. She isn’t physically dangerous like my son, but she would emotionally destroy me before she would let me cut him off. I have seen the same twisted visage of frustrated rage on her face that I have seen on my P-son’s.
Regardless if a psychiatrist would “label” her a psychopath or not, I had to cut her out of my life in order to heal. That thought was unthinkable a year ago, but now I realize I could never have healed if I had kept trying to appease her rage. It would have been like trying to throw enough meat to a two-headed dog to keep it from devouring you, body and soul.
The terrible anger we feel, the pain we feel, at being betrayed by the very person(s) we loved the most in the world makes us look outward for anything to alleviate that pain within our selves. We feel that we want to hurt the one that hurt us, to make them feel the pain they have inflicted on us. We feel tremendous sadness, so alone, and we want the one who hurt us to comfort us—yet they refuse and heap more pain upon our heads. We feel ashamed that we allowed anyone to continue to hurt us so long. They have no shame.
All these twisted, whirling emotions come and go by the second, never the same, always the same. The insanity of it all, the self doubt, and many times no one to validate our feelings. What if? Should I? Why can’t he/she? If ONLY!!! Physical and mental stress take their tolls. Physical illness, accidents because we can’t concentrate. Can’t think. I literally couldn’t write down a phone number in one try. Or dial it.
Then, now, I can look back at “that crazy woman” (me) and I wonder how she managed under all that load? I realize how strong she is to have survived. How gutsy she is to have done the things she did to get away when the situation was hopeless, when no one except the sheriff would listen to her.
And God, the awful SMIRKS on the face of the victorious psychopaths when they thought they had her were they wanted her.
In the end it was God and the psychopaths themselves who brought them down, none of my doing. All I had to do was survive, God fought the battle and won the war.
My battle now is to heal and to make myself wise enough to avoid the psychopaths in the future, to learn to set boundaries to protect myself from people who would harm me. To learn to spot the RED FLAGS and to NOT ignore them.
None of them had a right to do what they did to me, to hurt me, to gaslight me, to try to kill me, but they did. I allowed them to almost succeed though, because I didn’t set appropriate boundaries. I am learning to do so now, and as I do my strength to do so grows. I have taken back my power from those that would hurt me. Someone said here that “love is giving someone the power to break your heart, and trusting them not to do it.”
That’s true. But I guarantee the next person I trust not to break my heart will have boundaries on what kind of treatment I will allow. I may never again have a “true love” but I will be hanged if I ever accept anything less. Having a good life alone is a lot better than having a BAD LIFE with someone who hurts me.
BTW Henry, I want my next “true love” to be as sweet and caring as you are! And I want him to have as much spunk and be as honest and up front as Aloha, and I’d also like him to be a massage therapist or a physical therapist, and I’d prefer if he liked to live in the country, was a pilot, and it’d be nice if he was handsome and had “6 pack abs” and maybe about 30—and of course was rich, and just couldn’t live without a 61 year old red-neck woman! Know any candidates? LOL
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:29pm
eyesopened says:
Oh…and Henry…
My questioning is just all about my timing.
You’ll know when it’s your time, too.
Ok…now I’m starting to feel like Charlotte saying goodbye to Wilbur in Charlotte’s Web…but I’m not going anywhere yet….just thinking about it…and when.
I’ll still be around for awhile..
Have a good weekend!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:30pm
henry says:
Hmmm Sound’s like he was at least intertaining. I guess you have to make your own judgement if someone is real or looking just for attention. I have found some genuine people here. And beside I can’t leave until OxDrover does remember she and I are engaged. Eyes…any movie’s that you have been wanting to see??
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:36pm
OxDrover says:
It would be nice though, eyes, if people would tell you when they plan to leave and how they are doing.
Probably some go back to the Ps or get involved with another one that they think is the “prince charming” that is going to rescue them from their despair over the last P.
I know lots of people who seem to go from P to P, and others probably are just doing well and forget to check back in.
There are most likely a ton of reasons people “disappear” including healing enough to go on with their lives.
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:39pm
henry says:
Hey Oxy I ain’t rich, I aint’ 30, I cain’t fly a plane. But I got the six pack abs and live in the country. But if I meet this guy you described he’s all mine………..!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:45pm
henry says:
and I give a great massage!!!!!!!
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:46pm
eyesopened says:
Henry – haven’t thought about the movies…what looks good?
Ox – excellent idea…I promise to do it.
Henry – “Hey Oxy I ain’t rich, I aint’ 30, I cain’t fly a plane. But I got the six pack abs and live in the country. But if I meet this guy you described he’s all mine………..!”…….too funny!!!
Good night you two
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Friday, 11 July 2008 @ 11:53pm
learningme says:
Okay. Stupidly I was trying to give things the benifit of the doubt to save peace and a long hall of pain and distruction BUT…. I again heard a message from one of the SAME girls at 2:30 in the morning no less telling him she was home and had a good time as usual… calls him sweetie. SO my benifit of the doubt is me just being stupid I see and really just prolonging my pain huh? Why is it so hard to believe that he really doesnt love me like a normal person would love me. All the things he says are all so believible. I mean I hear all the posts here and comments to what I write and I feel so strong and believe what is said here….but THEN I talk to him and all the “well maybes” come up and the “what ifs”…I am lost arent I or is this truely just the beginning of my realization of what is to come. It seems like no contact makes so much since then why am I not doing it? Its almost like I feel what if I am making a mistake. I almost called the other girl just to see if the “what ifs” are true before I just stop contact but then I would be just making a fool of myself huh? Because I can tell how she calls him sweetie and her tone of voice she is not talking to some friend she knows. But yet according to him I am his everything. THIS IS SO DANG HARD…..I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THIS BEFORE. I am soooo happy for this site to actually be able to come here to people who might understand what I am going thru.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 10:20am
learningme says:
P.S. please dont give up on me for my stupidity. I really need all the support I can get. The friends I do have and family are so fusterated with me.
thanks
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 10:21am
henry says:
learning me… I understand your confusion, your need to be with him, hangin on to any hope that he love’s you. My X met someone new on my computer and moved out and is with him. but he still was coming here to try and have sex with me. He had many sexual partner’s the 3 years he lived with me. I had all the evidence but still he had a way of turning lie’s into confusing me. It was gas lighting, another word for pathalogical lier. I changed my phone number’s and the last time he was here I told him to never come back. Slowly I am getting over it. I still have times I wish he was here. It was all an illusion it really was just a big ole mess. As hurtfull as any rejection is, our ultimate salvation is this no contact. We mourn the loss and re-evaluate our priorities. We begin to aknowledge ourselves again. In the end, the final discard (no contact) belongs to us. We set the limit. We end the dance. They have no limit’s and are unable to do this. The abyss is bridged when we realize that there is no going back in any way. No friendship, no enmity, there can be nothing at all.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 11:30am
learningme says:
I agree. I am wondering to myself if I should change my number again. Do I have the strength to just not answer my phone if I keep it the same or should I just take the plunge once again and change it regardless of what family and friends will say..i have changed it so many times. He luckily lives in another state but has made a promise to me that he will show up if need be. But why if he is obviously so busy in his hometown and with all his other telephone relationships from others in other states.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 11:35am
OxDrover says:
Dear dear learningme,
Sweetie, that is why NC is so important. It is like they can hook into our brains and short circuit them. I have been there babe, and I think most of us have been. It is only when we don’t listen to them (their words) but we SEE what they are DOING.
You KNOW this guy is lying or you wouldn’t be here—right?
I know it is tough to give up that “dream” and you are still in that stage with the “what if”s but you are NOT stupid, and I will bust anyone in the chops and send Henry after them that says you are!! LOL
It is up to you now, to make a move, to stay with him (knowing he is lying) or to break free. Both of those options (and they are the only two you have) right now are painful, but when we come to this juncture in the road we have to go one way or the other and it is up to you to make that decision.
I can’t make it for you, and you will make it when you are ready but there are a bunch of us here that will be there for suppoort for you. Hon, we KNOW how much courage it takes to do what your brain knows is right, when your heart is telling you you might be making a mistake.
And one other thing, my dear, you are stronger and more powerful than you realize….take back that power! (((hugs)))
ps I will never give up on you.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 12:10pm
learningme says:
thank you. I do feel alone and with that this site is great to help me feel that others are either starting this pain or standing strong from the pain after some time. I still feel like I want to call this woman I heard on the message. I guess it would put a finalized answer to what I already know I guess. Is that a bad idea.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 12:20pm
henry says:
When I changed my phone numbers ATT does not charge for that if you tell them you are recieving harrasing phone call’s. It was so hard for me to not take his call’s, it hurt when he called and it hurt when he didn’t. But it is nice not knowing anything about him now, my brain needed the rest! Just hang in there and focus on you……
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 12:23pm
henry says:
If you call her it will be like rubbing salt in an open wound. You already know, and she will just tell him you called and the dance just continues. My advice Don’t Call………….
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 12:27pm
learningme says:
It just feels wierd to just stop calling or taking his calls. We just said I love you to each other this early morning and said we would talk later…then i checked the messages and heard her and now know she is more then a friend by her tone and comments…but then why do I feel like I will hurt him by just stopping without reason. If she told him I called then he would know I had enough right? or is that wrong thinking
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 12:34pm
learningme says:
I just read that sociopaths seem to die out of that type of traits after 30, can that be true? My S is quite a bit older then 30 and as we have discovered with comments back and forth that he is a S.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 1:02pm
henry says:
I don’t think my X P will ever out grow his trait’s, maybe he will find someone that can tolerate them. I don’t want to be disrespected, used, manipulated, controlled, lied too. I would rather work through the pain of letting him go, and work on myself so I will be mentally whole for the people that do love me. And if someone new comes along, I want all this confusion behind me so I can stay focused on reality. I think you are grasping at straw’s to hang on to your dream’s. He stole your dream’s and is using them to keep you available, or keep you for a safety net. I can’t tell you what to do, but if you need one more final answer to confirm your doubt’s? You seem like I did, the fact’s the evidence was right in front of me but I still didn’t want to believe it…
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 1:43pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Learningme,
This is not about being “socially polite”—he has lied to you, used you, and you are worrying about being “polite” to him? Come on!!! If you stop taking his calls, HE WILL KNOW WHY. He knows that you are on to him, and he will lie as long as you will listen. He is NOT going to change, sweetie!
Quote: “I feel like I will hurt him by just stopping without reason”
you are NOT stopping without reason, you have 1000 reasons, he has been abusive to you, lied to you, cheated on you, strung you along….continue another 996 things…I bet ou can fill in the blanks, all 996 of them!
He has deliberately hurt YOU. You will NOT hurt him, because he does not and is not capable of loving you or anyone except himself.
Dear dear learning me, Henry’s advice is good because the other woman he is seeing is probably as deep into the fog as you are, and he is probably telling her that you are just a friend, or whatever. He is lying to her as well as you. Unfortunately many of us have not listened when we were warned. I am one of those that has been warned about psychopaths and I didn’t listen to the warnings. I for whatever reason thought that the persons who warned me were wrong. I got into business with a psychopath, later I went to work for one, I was warned both times and I DID NOT LISTEN. In the future believe me if someone warns me about someone else I will be CAUTIOUS, but I know more now than I did then.
Sure, it hurts to admit to ourselves that we have been conned, that we have stayed while it continued, but is staying with him longer going to make you feel any better in the end? I felt like a complete fool being conned, I beat up on myself, but you know what, I DID NOT DESERVE WHAT THEY DID TO ME, and you don’t deserve to be lied to either. You DESERVE THE BEST because you have a heart and you can love. It hurts when we give so much and get back so little.
Why do they do that? BECAUSE THEY CAN and because they enjoy the game and the control and the con game. “Let me see how many women I can get to believe me, and I can sleep with them all, just keep telling them I love them.” They have no conscience, no remorse, just out for themselves. YOU DESERVE BETTER! No one deserves to be used and abused and lied to.
Someone on here said that “love is giving someone the power to break your heart and trusting them not to” (I can’t remember who said it but it is soooo true!) Can you trust this man not to break your heart? Hasn’t he already done it?
When I went No Contact with my X-BF who was a P, it broke my heart to do so, but I KNEW I couldn’t fix him, he was using me as just another woman in his harem. I couldn’t take that any more, it hurt too much. But I also knew from past experience with other Ps that if I didn’t get out it would NOT get better but worse.
Hon, I am not trying to “beat you up” (you’re doing a good enough job of that yourself LOL) you are not crazy and you are not stupid, you are just hurt and in pain. I can understand that, and I wish I could wrap my arms about you and hold you while you cried, but all I can do is to type words on a key board and let you know I DO CARE. But it is your life, and your decision, I can only encourage you to take a painful step, one step at a time, for your sake.
Go back and read some of Henry’s early posts (Henry I’m just using you as an example dear, I hope you don’t mind!) he was up and down and all over the place, just like you are now. Just like we all were at one time or another, the way you feel is “normal”—”a normal response to an abnormal situation would be abnormal” The fact that you are up and down over this crazy situation is normal. If you were calm, cool and collected, I would think you were crazy. LOL (joke) I was “totally insane” during all my fear and terror and pain. We call it the “crazymaking” because they make US crazy.
It’s called MAXIMUM STRESS, and it IS that. Take care my dear, and keep your chin up! I have you in my prayers and my thoughts for your healing. (((Big hugs))))
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 1:57pm
henry says:
Oxy You can use me as an example anytime. I so relate with learng me. I often feel like my input is not valued because I am a gay man. I know I was being conned, lied too. I wanted to stop the madness but I couldnt let go of that illusion. If I had stopped early on in the relationship it would not have been so bad. But for almost 3 year’s I gave him the benifit of the doubt. It took a big tole on my health and sanity. I am still not over (it) but I am over (him). And this is all about finding our self and reclaiming our identity. Oxy you have indured so much with your son, bf, mom, the death of your husband. I admire you so much. your strong character is a rock for me. If you can continue on with such a great outlook and appreciation for life, then so can I. It was frightening to me to look at what I had let move into my home. I have got to learn from this. I don’t want to miss this chance at becomming a better person, a wiser man. This website has been my salvation. I have bought many self help book’s, I re read my post. I gain strength and wisdom from so many people here. Like somebody said , the information on this website can not be bought.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 2:26pm
OxDrover says:
Dear sweet Henry, thank you so much, youse knows i luvs ya!!!
My step granddaughter is gay, and she is living wiith an abuser who is older than her and it breaks our hearts. Her mom is still not totally reconciled to the fact that she is gay, but the thing all of us hate about it is that she is in an abusive relationship. If it had been an abusive guy she was living with I think her brother would a long time ago have given the guy some “sincere advice to leave”–but because she would interpret it as “because she is gay” not because she is ABUSED we have kept our mouths SHUT tight! In the end, though, we all have to “save ourselves.” No one can do it for us.
Henry, your gentle soul comes across in your posts, and I know this has all been hard for you, as it has been for us all. It gives us an opportunity though to examine ourselves and see what vulnerability is within ourselves that made us be “chosen” for victimhood. I don’t want to ever volunteer for that “honor” again!!
It astounds me sometimes to realize that while I am an “uppity” redneck woman and didn’t take “no crap” off of anyone outside my family, that I couldn’t seem to get it that you don’t have to take it off your family either!
I laugh sometimes til I cry about some of the boundaries I have set for outsiders…and what a glib tongue I have. I am the first one to go to a business manager and ask for the “person who pacifies unhappy customers” and I usually get good results. I have had some doozies though, and they are still family “tales” about how mom did such and such and got results.
One tire store cheated me and sold me an off brand radial tire for my cattle trailer that blew out about about 15 miles. I’m not the brightest bulb in the mechanic’s end, but I DO know that a RADIAL TIRE should not have a TUBE inside it. When I went back to the store the man denied that they had even sold me that tire. I went home and got my receipt and showed him it was a NEW TIRE and bought from his store. He had called me a liar in the store at first because Ididn’t have my receipt at that time and when I went back, they had spelled my name wrong in their computer.
He asked what I wanted to make me happy and I told him a new tire AND my money back AND a public apology in his waiting room where he had called me a liar in front of several customers. I got it ALL.
If he had not done that, I was prepared to put on a sandwich board sign (front and back) that said “This business cheats pore old widder women” and in a patched dress and torn shoes marched up and down in front of his store every hour that it was open for a week.
Had a used airplane salesman who bought a customer’s plane after my husband died and the man who owned the plane owed me $2500 and I would not let the new owner remove the plane until I had my money. He told me he was going to fly it off anyway (He knew the man owed me the money) and that he didn’t have time to waste he had a commercial flight to catch.
Well, I informed him he was on PRIVATE PROPERTY and that I had a mechanic’s lien on the plane and that he should just LEAVE. He said “Well, great, call the law then.” I said, “Nope, we don’t call 911 out here we call Smith and Wesson, now get off my place NOW” In a couple of hours he got his bank towire transfer the money to my bank, and I let him leave with the plane. If he had taken the plane (which at that point he had NO legal right to) I would have lost the mechanic’s lien and been out the money. The man who owed me the money had sent a “POST DATED” CHECK with the used airplane broker, but I would NOT accept it, and by law was not required to. If I had let the man leave and the other guy canceled the check or put a stop payment on it, I would have been out the money.
I never had any trouble setting boundaries or getting merchants to honor their guarentees, and mostly they do it willingly and I always START OUT nice until they get nasty, then I go into high gear….but I was NEVER able to do that with my family or anyone I loved. I was mashed potatoes, weak as a kitten, gave in over and over, felt guilty if I didn’t.
So no matter how “strong” you really are, if you don’t exercise that strength and USE it, you get walked over like a door mat.
It is just like I’ve said before about the Oxen, they learn to obey when you are “bigger than they are” and it never dawns on them when they are grown that they weight 2,000 pounds and you weight 150 and they could wipe you out with a gentle swipe of their horns, but they DON’T KNOW HOW STRONG they are. We have to learn our own strength and start using it for our own protection.
I never realized I could stand up to my mother, could tell her that she is WRONG and I am RIGHT and that’s the way it is. Just like the oxen learned from me that I was the “boss” and “always right” they never questioned my commands, just did them. I never ever thought my own mother could have malice in her heart for me, or be so enraged at me that if looks could have killed I would have melted on the spot.
NOW I know how strong I am, I have validated it MYSELF. It is only when we can validate ourselves, I think, not depend on someone else to validate our truths that we can really use our strenths. At first it may take someone else giving you encouragement to do what your gut is telling you to, but in the end, we all have to make our own decisions, validate ourselves and use our strength.
I have watched you, Henry, for these three months or so, and how you have grown, blossomed like a rose, come out of your caccoon and spread your wings. It gives me great pleasure to know that you are doing so much better, that now you are able to encourage others. To reach out a hand to other people where you were just a few months ago.
This IS a painful journey, but at the same time, it is rewarding when peace and hope can come out of something so horrible. When we can look beyond today and see a brighter tomorrow for ourselves and for each other. (((Big Hugs you big lug)))) And, NO you cna’t have my 30 yr old BF –when I find him—LOL
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 3:28pm
learningme says:
Henry…
Your input does matter. The fact that you are gay does not take away the fact that you have feelings. U are no different then anyone else…well you are like us…you got fooled by a man…..lol… anyways, I will take all the input I can get and thank you to all that is helping me in this journey. I wish I could respond to some of the blogs here but I dont think I am in the place to give advice yet.
I will say that I have not spoken to him. He has called all through out the day but not once did I pick up. It is really hard. But I just read another comment on another site from a female that he has been planning a wedding with. Wow this year long relationship has just been one big lie. I just dont get it. He is sooo nice when he comes to visit me. He just made things were taking care of at my apt and with my car. When visiting we went out did many things…although he did always have is phone on silent and such…
anyways…its just wierd to just stop contact without telling him why..
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 8:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Learning me,
Keep in mind, HE KNOWS WHY!!! He knows because he has been down this path before—I will bet ya—and because he eventually gets “found out” he knows he has been found out. You have already talked to him about these other women, he knows you KNOW. So he is not stupid. Nasty, selfish, mean, and a lot of other things, but not stupid. He knows he has been plahing you and though he may not want it to end (he has a good thing going with multiple women on the hook) He KNOWS.
This is not a “polite social situation” you are in, you are involved in a deceptive CON GAME for HIS PLEASURE and your pain. Hon, you don’t owe him ANYTHING not even a “kiss off”
I am so glad that you have been strong and not answered the phone. I know it takes strength but you did it today and just take it one day at a time, one ring at a time if you have to. Turn the phone ringer off, or block his number if you can.
So many times, learningme, I wanted to write my son and tell him how he had hurt me, what a piece of crap he was, I wanted to ‘tell him off but good” and I wrote the letters and never mailed them.
Before I decided to go NC with him, I wrote him long letters begging him to get off my back, telling him how he was hurting me, how I was TIRED from so much grief, how I could no longer stand up emotionally or physically to the stress and the grief, that I needed NEEDED TIME to get myself together. You know what he did with those letters? He used them to help convince my mother I was crazy….and I WAS CRAZY. Crazy with grief, crazy with pain that wouldn’t quit, crazy with demands from my mother to do this for her (that she could have done herself or waited for a day or two) and crazy with my DIL getting up in my face, crazy with the Trojan Horse P drugging my mother and convinceing her I was after her money….sure, I was crazy. Crazy with pain. Crazy with TIRED.
Staying away from them, not listening to them, is the only way to not rip scabs off the wounds over and over and start the blood flowing. As long as they can spew the toxic venom in your ear the pain will go on. At first it is painful not to have contact, but it gets easier I promise you it will get easier.
It is like an addiction. You are looking for a “fix” just like a heroin addict or a drunk needing a drink…it is chemical, emotional and physical symptoms…BUT you are strong, you can take back the power you gave him, you have already proven how strong you are today by not answering the phone.
Henry will tell you I HARPED AND HARPED ON HIM. But it worked, it works when you don’t listen to them. In just a few months Henry has grown and GROWN and become so much stronger, taken back his power and is on the journey to healing and peace. Go back to the old archives here and read and read and learn, there is so much wonderful information here and links. Post as often as you need to, before you talk to him come here and post and wait for an answer before you pick up the phone. There is almost someone here 24/7 and we will hold your hand, support you and help you through it all. We can’t do it for you, but we will be here for you. (((Big hugs)) and always, prayers.
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Saturday, 12 July 2008 @ 9:09pm
alohatraveler says:
Dear Oxy,
I do believe you have been outposted! (on the thread about GoingForward) HAHA! I know I can say this to you because you always seem to have humor about life and yourself… and I like how you tell animal stories.
Humor aside now. That was painful. I did not call anyone stupid and I don’t think I was being superior at all and being compared to an abuser… well, I am speechless. I don’t even know what to say to that. I guess I was put in my place, wasn’t I?
I was working diligently on some articles but now I don’t feel like it… like who am I to share?! I wonder all the time anyway if I really have anything important to say. I really want to help people so again.. to be compared to an abuser??? Was that in the spirit of helping me?
Thanks for standing up for me. I don’t post as much as I used to but I think you do understand my spirit. I may be spunky and outspoken and I joke around too… maybe if a reader has not read my articles, they might not get my tone.
Anyway, it’s really late and I have to work tomorrow. Have a nice day on the farm… don’t kill any animals you big meanie! JUST KIDDING! (see? I am getting my spirit back!)
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 2:57am
henry says:
Learning Me- Thanks for letting me know you want my imput. So the dude is planning a wedding? It just fries my mind at what these parasite’s are capable of. Does he make you feel sorry for him? My x did the pity thing with the crocodile tear’s all the time, he even attempted suicide once while with me and has scar’s on his wrist from previous attempt’s before I knew him. I dont know if you have been reading my post, but my X would turn his cell phone on silent when he was here. Later I found out he had a bizarre sexual addiction and was writing his number on mens room walls. Yeah he was on the prowl for sex and attention all the time. He even had men here at my home while I was at work. After he left the final last time, strange men where showing up here looking for him. All the while he was doing this he was confessing his love for me, telling me i was the best thing that ever happened to him. Anyway one reason I am up so late tonite is I have had a realization about my X. I realize I never did love Mike. From the beginning I knew something wasnt right about him, his action’s didnt match his words. He was disrespectful, decietful, not interested in me, only him and his need’s. But he kinda ended up here at my place because his x kicked him out and he was somewhat homless. So he began the mirroring me, listening to me tell him what I wanted in a relationship and he tryed to become that. Even when mike was at his most loveing and caring to me, I never felt like I was in love with him. It was pity I felt, sorry for him, I wanted to help him get his life together. And even when I held him at nite, I had no feelings of genuine love for him, because deep down I knew he was not being real. So I kept my gaurd up. I never fell in love with him. I fell for his game, I got confused, I was in the fog. The main reason he was here almost 3 years is because I felt sorry for him. So I realize tonite that I feel guilty that I didn’t love him. I know I am not making sense but I became responsible for him because of his manipulation. I felt sorry for him and responsible, something inside me was going crazy. It got worse and worse and at times he was violent. I dinnt know at this time he was a sociopath with a borderline personality disorder, I just thought he was f–ked up. The confusion affected my life in a very bad way. I lost twenty pound’s, I am filing bankruptsy because of him. When I finally broke mentally and was having money problems he moved on and left me here in big pile of confusion. I had to do the no contact thing. I had to be forcefull with him and told him to go away and never come back. Learning Me there are alot more fish in the sea than these bottom feeder’s. You and I need to get our chit together, kick them to the curb and go fishing for someone real…
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 3:30am
amr says:
Dear Henry,
Great post (from me who rarely posts but reads almost daily and follows all your stories)!
I especially liked : “…but I became responsible for him because of his manipulation.” Very well expressed, and I identify strongly!
I lost about 13lbs (in around only 3 months of the six months in total of seeing this scumbag) – and went from slim to almost gaunt – under the stress of it all, but did not realize at the time what was happening to me.
Re-diagnosing in the past few days (how many rediagnoses have there been?), I have also arrived at psychopathy + BPD.
Good luck with your fishing for “someone real”. I haven’t dared let myself think about this seriously yet and it’s been two years.
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 4:05am
Wini says:
Dear Free: This blog is a process to get back to a peacefulness in our hearts and souls and to allow us to be the best that we can be.
Every one is on their own level of what pain was thrown into their lives. It allows all of us, no matter what works, in our own unique form to release the pain and move forward.
Peace to your heart and soul. Since you wrote this to Donna on an open forum, I thought I’d interject my opinion.
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 8:33am
henry says:
AMR your statement ( but did not realize at the time what was happening to me) I relate so much. I didn’t want him here but I did. I think keeping us stressed and confused is part of the game. I diagnosed Mike as a cluster B, I don’t know if you have read (Learning from Madness) by richard skerrit but I recommend it. You will have to order it online, but it helps to understand what motivates people with these personality disorder’s, and it helped me diagnose him. I am not a physcologist but it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to recognize specific trait’s and habit’s in people. I was alway’s confused as to why am I putting up with this? I knew deep down I was being manipulated. But I felt guilty because in a sence I was lieing too, I didn’t love him, but I was trying too, and I was trying not to. This realization has kinda set me free in a way. Kinda like yeah I was confused and manipulated, but underneath all that I was trying desperatly to hang on too me.
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 1:10pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Aloha,
Don’t quit writing your articles, I love your unique way of seeing things….it’s different from mine, and that brings a freshness and another facet to the gems you come up with.
This is kind of a difficult week for me, and I am sorry that some others in their pain and distress took what we offered in love as an attack. That happens sometimes, and especially in cyberspace. I think my analogy of the little dog, hit by a car and injured, lying on the street and when you went to pick it up to take it to the vet, it would likely reach out and in its pain, bite you. Especially if it wasn’t your dog, but sometimes even our own pet dogs would bite us. I don’t hold it against any dog that is injured and hurting and scared if when I reach out to help them they react with aggression. That’s just kind of a “normal” reaction. I’ve done it myself. Once I fell down some stairs and really thumped my shin, had an orange-sized hematoma rise up. The pain was awful, I coudn’t breathe it was so bad, and my husband reached out to take my hand and help me up and I screamed “Don’t touch me!”
All my years of working with patients who are in great pain has given me an awareness of how pain effects us all. How stress and emotional pain effect us. And sometimes it isn’t pretty. I had a patient once who was a wonderful man, so sweet, but we were having to wake him up every fifteen minutes round the clock to care for his physical needs and as a result he became sleep deprived. He was not confused, but just sleep deprived, and he became so aggressive he would take swings at us and when he ran out of curse words he knew, he started making them up! LOL None of the nurses got mad at him for this behavior or even scolded him for this, because we KNEW it was a normal and natural reaction to the pain and sleep deprivation. Two good nights sleep and he was back to being his wonderful sweet self.
I know that we all get cranky from time to time with stress, and even from sleep deprivation—I know I couldn’t sleep right, not restfull sleep, when I was in the worst of my cricses and that also tends to make us more cranky. Our worlds become so egocentric and small when we are under stress. The crazymaking that goes on in the P-experience and afterwards when we are so wounded is a difficult time for us to try to see the bigger scope of things.
After I moved away from my P-bio-father, I was only 19, and I was totally crushed and confused. I did not even have an idea what “train” had hit me. What had been DONE to me, and WHY! I just couldn’t comprehend it. I tried to talk to my mother, to my friends, and NO ONE could understand. I finally kept my experience inside me because I did realize that no one but me “got it.” It took me a loooong time to come to some peace over it, but I still didn’t understand what “train” had hit me. There was still buried anger and rage and confusion. It is only NOW 40 years later that I have processed what actually happened. Only now I can see the big picture of a life time of dysfunctional relationships with Ps. With the programming I got from my mother + the ps in the family + my reactions to them=enlightenment of it all.
No wonder I was vulnerable to the Ps. Yet, I can accept my own part in my lack of boundaries. I don’t beat myself up any longer about not having appropriate boundaries, but I do realize I didn’t have appropriate boundaries. Understanding my own lack of boundaries in CERTAIN SITUATIONS gave me the key to opening the Pandora’s box of all these old, buried, horrible memories and cleansing my soul from their ugliness.
Learning new ways of coping with pain, learning new ways to prevent pain, going out into the world cautious but not paranoid, loving myself, realizing that I DON’T deserve to be disrespected. Truly realizing what an amazing person I AM. Finally feeling that I DESERVE to be loved, just for me, not for what I DO for people. It’s a journey, and at times a painful one, and I try not to think about the “time I’ve wasted” being unhappy and not knowing why. Without ALL the experiences, both good and bad, I would not be WHO I am TODAY. And who I am TODAY is a pretty amazing person. Not perfect. Never will be, but still amazing and powerful and strong. Loving and caring. Kind and compassionate. But NOBODY’S FOOL. I want to go on growing, seeking knowledge and enlightenment. ((((Aloha))))
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 1:47pm
apt/mgr says:
Dear Aloha,
I would add my voice too. Sometime ago I offended a poster here. I took from her words that she was wanting encouragement concerning a relationship with God. I’m not a religionist, but she took what I was saying as trying to cram my religion down her throat. That wasn’t my intent. I backed away to rethink my thinking. It was just a speed bump. She took what I said out of context and I figured I’d just make it worse by trying to explain and defend myself.
The one man who could or could not be a sociopath, said something to me one time that really made sense coming from him. I had berated him for something he said to me, and his response was, “the impact was not my intent”. That was probably the only thing he said that made sense. Whether he meant it or not, it could apply here, too.
Just from reading what you write and the pain you endured, you are a caring person and you would just want to put your hand out to ease the fall of someone else. Were you a vindictive person, you wouldn’t be here. You wouldn’t expose your own life for all to see. What we say isn’t always received. Sometimes the message we have to say, affects some and falls on deaf ears of others. I went through many years of my life thinking I had to befriend everyone and please everyone. I set myself up for a major let down.
A natural fixer wants everyone to be happy and to try it “this” way. For me, I glean something from all people. I admit, I sometimes turn a deaf ear, but not often. I receive it, digest it, and use what I can and the rest passes.
From my years as a wife, I despaired of ever speaking again. Nothing I said made a difference. I’ve learned that not everyone hears. They listen, but don’t hear. It’s not the fault of the speaker. It’s what the listener is wanting to hear. They reject some and accept others. It’s taken me time, but I’m learning to not take it personally. And if we can impact 9 people and one walks away, our work isn’t in vain. Neither is yours. There are still lots of people who can benefit from your experience. As long as there are people, there’s going to be hurting people who just don’t get it. Someone has to get the word out.
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 2:10pm
Benzthere says:
I’d like to comment to Oxy, AlohaT, Lilygirl, Free and All, and I apologize for my slow response. I wrote it but wanted to think on it overnight before I posted.
Lovefraud is a public site, with many members in various emotional stages. It is a community in support of those affected by sociopathic behavior. Lovefraud has been here for quite some time and surprisingly with little disturbance on these community blogs. That is laudable. We are mostly self moderated here, free to post as we choose, but within reason. But this is not individualized professional therapy nor is this site similar in format to Kathy’s where Kathy directly guided and responded to individual questions and needs.
When you post on a public site, you invite public comment. That’s just how it works. But no one should EVER have to fear an attack. Period. Oxy and AlohaT have been posting here for a long time and their heartfelt concern for others has always been obvious to all and their intent is beyond reproach. Frankly, I was appalled and sorrowful when I read Lilygirl’s post. The most important and obvious difference, to me and I’d guess to most other regular posters as I’ve read, between Lilygirl’s abuser and AlohaT and Oxy, though it may be difficult to grasp because of imperfect presentations and concepts of growth, is intent.
Lilygirl has been hurt and abused, but she is not the only one who has been and that does not give her or anyone lease to strike out in anger and retaliation. If advice given here wasn’t beneficial and instead Lilygirl felt controlled, Oxy and AlohaT still did not deserve Lilygirl’s misplaced attempt at reprimanding their good intentions in the manner she chose.
If Lilygirl felt accosted she had several choices, she could have stated so, and explained why clearly, but without the malice. She writes well and has no trouble expressing her feelings in other instances. I believe the group would have responded very appropriately. I didn’t see the control either, but we are not mind readers nor are we professionals.
And Free, I didn’t see the post questioning you, but I don’t see these responses this morning as bullying either. They are in response to a disruption Lilygirl created. It’s not about grace, I think they’ve given that, time and again. And they didn’t viciously attack back, more grace. I think it is about them defending their boundaries against being attacked, everyone’s necessary right, and reestablishing their normal flow on this site. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
No contact, which seemed to initiate all this, is a common theme expressed here often by the site founders themselves and it too was given without malice or the intent to control anyone. It’s just good advice. Discussing the how’s and why’s is for another time, but it is a most important behavior to investigate. But instead Lilygirl retaliated in anger, and that hurt Oxy and AlohaT, which was obviously her intent.
Not everyone is going to agree here and not everyone is at the same place or needing the same support, but advice given doesn’t necessarily signify control or judgment, it’s opinion, sometimes strong opinion, sometimes lengthy opinion. Take in what helps and ignore what doesn’t. If you discuss, do so with respect. If you can’t do that, then perhaps a public site isn’t a good idea for you. That’s what we are all learning here, good from bad intent and healthier ways to relate. We have a right to our opinions and the right to disagree with anyone on here, but we don’t have the right to harm others. This is not the place for additional drama, conflict, or games. This is a place for open, honest, and considerate discussion for the benefit of all, not one, all. I will also relay that Lilygirl’s behavior reminds me of my abuser’s behavior and having to walk on egg shells if I wanted to avoid a rage or an attack, in his effort for attention or for control. No one here should have to walk on egg shells.
We have been provided a wonderful service by some wise, caring, and dedicated women who expend a great deal of effort to make this site successful for all of us. When we post, we owe it to the generosity of the originators to keep it respectful. If we don’t, past history here assures me that these originators will. They provide this wonderful public service, and I think our attitude and manners should reflect our appreciation.
I look at this unfortunate conflict as opportunity. Lilygirl and Free, your posts are enlightening and worthy. Free, I don’t like to see anyone leave, then we all may miss growth opportunities in both giving and receiving. I’d like to see everyone take a breath, take another look inside, and for now put any anger and hurt aside, and practice some acceptance. Acceptance is like grace, undeserved merit. Acceptance is sometimes difficult, but if you don’t give it you can’t demand or expect it in return. Oxy and AlohaT have both apologized for causing unintentional harm and they are moving on. I think they’ve done their part. No one wishes Lilygirl harm here, and I am confident in making that statement for all. Life is full of choices, I hope we can all learn to make good ones.
I found my answer to Matt. 5:39, a passage that had always troubled me. It is the passage that talks about turning the other cheek. It’s not a message that we should allow abuse as I had once interpreted, as there are many other passages also reiterating that. The greater message I now understand is that when we turn the other cheek, that first response is to show no desire for retaliation, but instead that we choose to give another chance.
Godspeed, Benz
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 2:15pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Benz and Apt/Mgr,
Thank you both for your very insightful and thoughtful posts. Any time you have conflict there is always opportunity for growth. I have no doubt that Lilygirl is in great and deep pain from her P-eperience and she mentioned other conflicts from her childhood, those all seem to come together at the time of your worst pain and increase it even more. I truly was not offended by her outburst, first off because I knew where she was coming from. I was sorry that she was in such pain that she perceived me and/or Aloha as attacking her and that in that perception, she struck back. I do hope that she and Free will take some deep breaths and come back here, because there IS so much healing and understanding here. But I also realize that sometimes it takes a few false steps to get on the right path to healing. I know I have made MORE than a FEW false steps in getting to where I am finally feeling that I am at least on the right road.
You are so right Benz about the Matt. 5:39 passage. Isn’t it amazing how with the FOG GONE we can see the spiritual messages in the Bible so much more clearly?
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 2:58pm
Donna Andersen says:
I am very grateful to everyone who takes the time to post comments on this blog, and offer insights to other readers. OxDrover and AlohaTraveler make wonderful contributions, as do all of you–I don’t want to start naming names, because I’m sure to overlook some and I don’t want anyone to feel slighted.
Just know that I am in awe of the love and caring that you all show to each other, people from all over the world whom we know only through screen names. I am touched by the honesty and willingness to share. I know from the e-mail I receive–beyond what is posted in the public blog–that we are making a difference in many shattered lives.
Thank you all.
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 6:03pm
alohatraveler says:
I truly appreciate all that have come out of the woodwork to issue little gestures of support. This means a great deal to me.
I feel a bit misunderstood at the moment. It is painful when someone even implies that I am “intolerable.” I was feeling like I was some kind villain. I was surprised to be singled out as someone that has driven another reader away.
I think there is a lesson here for me about those rusty old boundaries that I have. It is hard to refrain from defending myself when I am being compared to an abuser over and over. I don’t understand this. I know I mentioned the same thing to another reader so that might sound hypocritical. But, I appreciate that Benz was willing to say that she picked up the tone and intent of the attack on me and acknowledged it. I was wondering if I was the only person that felt that way? Thanks Benz. I needed that.
I also want to clarify that my question to FREE was about that very thing. I surprised that she didn’t come to my defense, just a little. I thought she “knew” me better than that and would not misunderstand my intentions. I see that several other readers “know” me well enough to realize that an attack on another reader would be out of character for me.
I would never want to hurt anyone at LoveFraud or anyone at all, to be honest. I think of LF as my community and my people. This is the only place where I can talk about the Bad Man without feeling judged. I have yet to have one satisfying conversation about the Bad Man with anyone outside of this forum. People don’t understand. And to use one of my favorite sayings, “They don’t know, what they don’t know.” But here, we do know.
I am truly sorry if anything I said made another reader feel invalidated. For my own peace of mind, I have to say one more time, this was never my intention but I am sorry that someone experienced my comments in that way.
I had switched threads to get away from what felt like continual jabs at me, the LF Bad Girl. But again, my comments and intentions were misinterpreted. In the future, I will be more careful with my words and know that there is always the chance that someone won’t get me.
There’s a lot more I could say, but I won’t. I do not want this issue to fester.
Thanks again to all the wonderful people here, and by the way, I think ALL of the people here are wonderful and I have learned something from everyone who has dared to post their thoughts…. so thank you, thank you, thank you…
Today, I sign off by sending you all my Aloha!
The word “Aloha” is made up for two parts: “alo” and “ha”. “Alo” means face to face presence and “Ha” mean “the breath of life.” In sharing “my Aloha” with you, I am sharing my breath, my presence, my essence. I give you my “ha”… the breathe of life.
I still love Hawaii.
)
A Hui Hou!
(Until we meet again)
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 7:57pm
alohatraveler says:
I am back already… I just wanted to say a random thought. I love Oxy’s stories about the farm and the neighborhood squabbles.
For me, her stories bring her points to life. I rather like imagining her on the farm with the animals and such.
And as other readers share the details of their lives, they come to be full characters in 3-D. I liked hearing Lilygirl talk about her son and sitting on the porch with him, talking about life and healing.
And Beverly at the Church Social, treating her S as though he was a potted plant in the corner. I love this!
The way people share here is so rich.
Thanks again to all.
Aloha
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 8:04pm
OxDrover says:
One of the things I think we all need to keep in mind in dealing with not only each other, but people in general is that when you are in “difficulty”—pain, emotional or physical, from any source it makes us scared and scared people, just like my story of the little injured dog on the road, strike out.
At my facility we had so many people on staff who were verbally attacked by patients and families, mostly families, that I developed a program to teach them how to deal with this. Most of the non professional staff, who took the brunt of this were PERSONALLY INSULTED by the patients and families, and took it personally when it really wasn’t “personal.”
I called this program “Dealing with difficult families and families in difficulty” I talked to the staff about how the family was in crisis because of a sick family member, how their usual functioning was out the window, and that in their anger and frustration they would strike out at the nearest staff member. One big thing was that the family would ring for the nurse or attendant and the nurse or attendant would come promptly but not promptly enough for the family member who was angry at ANY wait. The family member would then attack staff with “I”ve been ringing for 30 minutes” (the staff member would know it was less than 5 minutes) so the staff member would start to defend themselves, pointing out that it was only 5 minutes, of course the family member would then become irate at “being called a liar” and the fight was on.
I suggested to staff that thy IGNORE THE OUTBURST which was NOT true, and say instead, “I’m sorry I took so long to get here, what can I do for you now that I am here?”
Most of the time this would completely defuse the situation that could have gone all the way to the top administration. Also, it took the “personality” out of it for the staff.
I told staff if the first “what can Ii do for you now that I am here?” didn’t defuse it they should repeat it one time, then if that didn’t do it, they were to say “I can see you are really upset Mrs. Smith, let me get the charge nurse for you”
Then, guess what the charge nurse would say? Yep, you got it right “I can see you are upset Mrs. Smith, what can I do for you now that I am here”
And, then if the charge nurse couldn’t solve it she was to get ME.
I have used this kind of thing in many different situations, not just in hospitals, but in business with an unhappy customer, etc.
Unfortunately, sometimes in emotionally charged situations where we feel personally attacked it is difficult to keep in mind where the person who is attacking us is coming from. If they are coming from a position of pain, anxiety and fear, I generally give them some leeway and don’t take it personally.
When they are coming from a general bullying position, I go the other direction and stand my ground, sometimes throwing in a little sarcasm like I did with the “Used aircraft broker” when he tried to bully me—okaaaay, a LOT of sarcasm, you guys know me too well! LOL So how I react to someone going off on me depends on where I think there intent lies, if it is from a position of pain I try to give them a lot of slack and “not take it personally.” If it’s what I perceive as overt bullying, I am not so “understanding” with them.
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Sunday, 13 July 2008 @ 10:20pm
alohatraveler says:
Oxy,
You know what… that was so perfect for me today. I have had a few draining days for various reasons. My Dad just lost the vision in one of his eyes due to a “mini stroke.” Bad day at the Group Home. Bad Day at the Children’s shelter. Bad day or two in LoveFraud Land… (LFL)
)
This is off the subject but I don’t think anyone is paying attention to us anymore anyway… so I had a long horrible day working with a “child” that is almost 18. Myself and another counselor were assigned to this child and we spent the entire day redirecting her behavior, following her all over the place while being verbally abused and threatened. She is like that puppy in the street righ tnow. She can’t recognize when people are trying to help her.
I am totally emotionally drained and exausted from this day. It is difficult for me to take the abuse all day.. though you are right, it really isn’t personal… and now, I get paid for it! Perhaps this is a nudge from the universe to remind me what it was like with the Bad Man.
I feel really beat up right now. I have a lot of worries and a lot of sadness…. worried about Dad. Worried about some of the kids that I work with. Worried for my own safety… I don’t want to be assulted by this girl. She has assaulted other staff in the past and you know what.. it was really stressful seeing the looks on people’s faces as she was roaming the shelter. They know her and they know what she is capable of.
It’s funny but I feel like I am having a conversation with you out by the trash heap where we got dumped earlier.
I better go to bed so I will be prepared incase I have another day as super counselot. OOPS! That is funny! That was a typo… How about this… I am Aloha Counselot! I love it.
I feel like I am alone now out here hanging onto the end of this old Blog.
Good Night.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 1:24am
Beverly says:
I went to a music festival for a few days (on my own) and came back to find Free’s farewell post. No oooo. That saddened me, I am really gonna miss Free and I hope Free decides to come back. We all have our special connections with people here and many of us have stayed open minded, even posting with self confessed Ss – Mr. Green and Secret Monster!.
This is not the first time, that posters have clashed and I am sure it wont be the last. But for the more established posters here, I think each person has a different style of posting and having a sense of confidence in the poster, that however staunchley they say something, we KNOW its coming from a loving heart – like tough love, which is more easily done, when you have built up a rapport with people. For some of the new posters they may be fresh in their situation and feeling more volatile, but as someone here said, upholding respect is paramont. Its amazing how words can be so powerful but I find I get to ‘know’ a poster by their style of writing, whether they are the nervous type, the philosophical type, the calming type, the volatile type etc. I can always tell Oxy’s posts by the depth of thought and amount of words in CAPITAL LETTERS that she uses!! LOL.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 2:42am
amr says:
Dear Aloha,
Please do keep on writing your wonderful articles! I look forward to them. You have a unique and delicious style of writing, well worth cultivating and refining.
Incidentally, and I meant to mention this a few weeks back, I am also an Aries Rooster (who also doesn’t believe in astrology!), as well as matching perfectly all the more serious criteria presented by Liane recently (adventurousness, truthfulness, and compassion, if I remember correctly). Unfortunately (from my point of view) I am the twelve years older than you kind of rooster!
And I thought you’d like this little tale from “Love Fraud Land” too…
A few weeks back I wrote to Donna to ask her to pass on my e-mail address to “xxx” (not her real pseudonym), a Love Fraud contributor who appeared to be in considerable distress at the time, as we only live about 130kms apart (about 80 miles to all you Americans) here in south-eastern Australia.
Well eventually she e-mailed me – and I e-mailed her back – , and she happened to say amongst other things that she’d ring me when she had her phones reconnected (casualties of big bills incurred ringing her psychopath, a familiar tale).
A few more weeks passed. I was exiting the express lane with my daughter at the supermarket in my local town. And lo and behold it’s MY psychopath not three feet in front of me. I had not caught sight of him or his vehicle in the street for at least six months. He exits by one door (I had to resort finally in the end to a restraining order a few months ago). We exit by another, my heart thumping. Again he crosses the footpath in front of us. We hang back before proceeding out of the building. We cross to where my car is parked. Just at that moment my phone rings. I see a strange number on the display, and in the illogicality of the moment, my heart palpitating at an even greater rate, I think, oh no, it’s some kind of trap, it must be him! Instead an unfamiliar female voice says “It’s xxx from LoveFraud”.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 4:45am
Wini says:
Hi Beverly: I wrote you several times … but we probably were on this site at different times … and as other people write, our messages get kicked onto the rest of cyber space blog.
I hope all is well with you.
Let’s all pray that Free finds peace and comes back. She was fun to chat with. Yes, I agree, we’re all at different levels of handling this. Have to find patience with those that are at the beginning of this horrific saga and gracefully let them flower to be the best that they can be again.
Peace.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 7:58am
Beverly says:
Hiya Wini, I was not on site for a few days and with all the threads it is easy to miss personal messages. I am ok thank you. Free is such a gentle soul and had an unwarranted attack launched by someone else and she bounced back, and I hope she recovers and comes back, like she did before, because she knows she has support here. I think it can be easy to misconstrue the kinds of information that people are putting across. A person who doesnt write very much, may come across as shallow and these are all assumptions which lead some people into building up a wrong profile of someone. Of course, with some of the older posters, we have a taste of their ‘essence’ and we know that they mean no harm and only good.
Peace and love to you Wini
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 8:13am
Beverly says:
My apologies to you Wini, I will look back and try to find your postings. I always enjoy reading your posts.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 11:06am
OxDrover says:
Dear Aloha,
One of the reasons I retired when I did (about 6 months after my husband was killed) was that my job was sooooooo stressful after the plane crash and the resulting PTSD of being the first on the scene, taking care of my son’s burns, trying to take care of my step-dad who was dying with cancer at the time, etc etc. My job was so stressful because our manager had left for another job, the new temporary manager was trying to get me to take the managers’ job, which I did NOT want to do, and staff shortage along with increased patient census.
I think though it financially impacted me greatly to have no salary coming in that I made a wise decision. We have to look, I think, at the TOTAL stress load in our lives and figure out what we can get rid of in the way of responsibilities or tasks. I have studied the effects of stress on humans for decades. I finally started applying it to ME–I finally realized that it can overcome even ME. I am HUMAN! DUH!!!
I saw my short term memory fly out the window, I saw my judgment fly out the window, I saw my cranky, angry mood fly IN the window, I saw lots of things and I did not feel I was competent in that context to continue to work at a very demanding job that was highly stressful, AND do a good job of taking the responsibility for others lives in my stressed hands. So, I retired.
I can definitely relate to your job where you work. I worked in an adolescent psych unit for a yr and a half and quit that job and went to a much less dangerous, violent and angry job, because the stres sof dealing with violence and anger from patients was too much after a while. Plus, physical safety was definitely not assured at the facility I was working at. Good decision.
I’m recovering now, but I know I still dont’ have the RESERVE strengths to cope with continual stress so I work very hard at decreasing stress in my life. I have been doing that by several methods, one was SETTING BOUNDARIES with others. Since good boundary setting was not “natural” with me, it actually created short term stress for me in “working up” to doing it. But, once it was done and the stress that had caused me to need to set boundaries was there, the NET effect was a decrease in stress.
Things like your dad’s health isn’t anything you can get the stress out of your life, it just IS what it IS, and the timing can’t be changed. Things like your job might be something you might look at and see if you can find another job that is not quite so stressful. Job changing in itself is a stress, but at the same time, if you can get one that isn’t quite so violent etc. maybe the NET effect would be a decrease in stress.
“Burn out” in stressful jobs like you have is not unusual, and so it is something for you to think about.
Cutting out your second job might be an option, though I know you need the extra income to work on your debts etc. but look at ALL the aspects of your life where there is stress and see what you can do to cut down on the stress.
My psych counselor kept pushing me to “get out more” and to “go places” and I coudln’t get him to see that A) that is stressful to me, not de-stressing, and B) I don’t have the extra money to be buying gas to run up and down the road to see my friends all the time (most live at a distance of 30-60 minutes driviing time) C) I LIKE being here on the farm D) I know what stresses me, I’m aware of things that make me more stressed. While HIS idea of destressing might be to visit someone, that would stress ME
Before all this hub-bub of last year I realized that I needed to cut my stress. I had not taken care of MY business interests and had actually lost tens of thousands of dollars in the decline in value of items that I needed to sell. I tried to put limits on the amount of time I spent entertaining my mother. I.e. SETTING BOUNDARIES with her—of course, she resented the heck out of that as she had come to expect that I would put everything on the back burner to take care of her wants, no matter what it cost ME to do so.
I enforced those boundaries, much to my eventual regret when she let the Trojan Horse P move in with her and be her caregiver/companion who was at her beck and call 24/7, and seemingly enjoyed doing it. Of course it was only about a month before he started getting money for her for this or that, plus the salary she was paying him. Plus, I have no doubt that it wasn’t long after he moved in that he started drugging her which made her more feeble mentally as well as physically, and of course made her sleep a good deal of the time which allowed him to rifle her financial papers etc. Then shortly after that he started the affair with my DIL which gave him even more information and power. Before all this my mom, like me, had never fully trusted our DIL, and in fact, not trusting her was one of the main reasons that we had the trust drawn up anyway, because we were afraid that after her dependent son died, she would take off and we didn’t want her to take off with any of my son C’s assets if he had inherited anything before she left. Up until that time we really didn’t know what was going on, and by March (he moved in about Thanksgiving) they already had her convinced I was out to control her and her money and my power of attorney had been revoked (unknown to me) and money transferred to the control of DIL, along with a POA to son C AND DIL. So they were in control by the first of March of not only mother but her money as well. I didn’t find out until May, and by that time mother was so drugged she could hardly stutter out a coherent sentence and could barely walk with a walker.
Of course from DEcember to May it was STRESS CENTRAL around here, and when I found out in early May that TH-P was a sex offender I got a Private Investigator to get me the dope on him which was AWFUL. Of course Mom wouldn’t believe any of these “lies” I had “made up” or even the picture rap sheet that I had “Fabricated on my computer” (since I am the MOST computer illiterate person you could know this was ridiculous) no one would look at my evidence.
KNowing by that time that my P-son was involved with all of this and that he was the master-mind behind it, and knowing the “loop hole” in the trust, that if I died first before mom, he couldn’t be cut out of all family assets, I realized that my LIFE WAS IN DANGER. Thank God at that point I did listen to my GUT and realize I couldn’t be safe in my home with the TH-P living at my mother’s so fled. Which actually added more STRESS to my life, leaving my home, the financial outlay for the RV to live in etc. but the safety of being away did give me some lower stress time. By that time I needed it desperately.
IN August, the TH-P and the DIL were arrested for trying to kill son C who had discovered their affair (but had told no one else) some of the stress was relieved.
It was only by December I felt safe enough to come home. It is only now that I am home, and feeling some better after my tick fever last summer, that I am really feeling like I am healing. NC with mother is the only way to go on that too, as she is not willing to acknowledge her part in all of this, or her enabling, etc. I no longer try to please her or let “what would mother think was right” influence what I do, or how I think.
Stress is a cumulative weigh on our backs, the bigger the stress and the longer we carry it the longer it takes to regain our strength.
I liken it to physical weight. A person can carry a 100 pound sack of potatoes maybe to the next town if it isn’t too far away, but carrying a 5 pound sack of potatoes to the nearest ocean may be an impossible task. Long distance runners that carry a pack cut the handle off their tooth brushes to decrease the weight of their packs by even a half ounce as carrying it a LONG distance makes it very heavy.
Since I have had a TREMENDOUS weight of stress on my back for so LONG I realize it will take me a long while to completely recover my emotional strength and reserves.
REtiring, and thus losing my greatest income was a stress, but the net of that stress reducing move was not so much money, but peace from that stress, so it was I think a good trade off.
NC with my P-son was a stress for sure, but the NET was decreased stress eventually. Ditto with my NC with Mom. The DIL is OUT OF OUR LIVES, and that is a BIG stress reduction. My son moving away was a stress, but our improved relationship is a big positive, so the net there is a big decrease in stress. The TH-P going to prison was a decrease in stress, him maybe getting out was an increase in stress, but I worked with the parole board and he is in til his sentence is done, so that is a big stress reduction.
Being home is a big stress reduction, taking care of my own business needs is a big stress reduction, though I am working harder than ever before in many ways. I can see progress and that helps to keep me motivated to keep on working.
Prices keep going up up up and my income isn’t so that is a stress, but I don’t have any problem cutting out the entertainment part of our budget to make up for that. I provide most of my entertainment here for myself any way. I’m frugal and don’t mind shopping for work clothes at the resale shops or the Goodwill store, who’s gonna laugh at my second hand tee shirt, the donkeys?
I barter for some things I could not do without and that helps too. I now have an expert mechanic who will do things that my son D isn’t expert enough to handle and I can pay in beef which I have a surplus of. I’m happy and the mechanic and his family are happy. I no longer have to repair fences on the farm or cut the weeds, because the people who rent the pasture do that, and they also feed my cattle and donkeys with hay they bale here on the farm, so I have no expense for my livestock which saves a considerable amount of money and work for me.
I have other friends who trade things with me, or trade out labor and barter with us. This helps keep both the financial aspect lower, but also strengthens bonds with people. There are just so many things I can think of that help to decrease the stress load on me, and the easiest one is to say “NO” when I feel no and don’t worry about it. I’m feeling peaceful here again in my sanctuary. Safe again. MY own little domain where I don’t have to dance to any tune but my own, and I am the fiddler.
I encourage all of you to look at your life and see where you are feeling stress from and see if there isn’t some way some how that you can decrease the stresses in your life. It may mean cutting out some friendship that is stressful, or going NC with a particularly stressful person, but it pays big dividends in the end and allows you to restore some of your emotional reserves. Tired isn’t just physical it is emotional too. Like Blondie said about talking to X-P she is TIRED of working on the relationship. Feeling tired emotionally is just like tired physically, you need a REST from it all.
I guess I have rambled on another “novel” —today is the anniversary of my husband’s death, 4 years ago. I had a couple of weepy days, especially when the young man who was 16 at the time and his mother came by to visit. His scars from the burns are so terrible, but thank God his face was spared, and he is doing so well, so it was a bittersweet visit.
Take care all, and keep on the road to healing, it does get better, and decreasing stress is one of the things you can do to yourself and for yourself to make it easier. (((all))))
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 11:06am
Wini says:
Hi Beverly: I guess when we all don’t log in at the same time, we have to have conversations with ourselves (LOL). Hey, I’m used to it now … it’s been over 2 years since my EX moved out. Now it’s just me and my furry children (aka Pets). Speaking of pets. I tried to rescue this little baby bird that fell out of the tree. I don’t know how long he was baking on the sidewalk and when it happened. I feed him with an eye dropper baby food for birds (I have birds) mixed with water. Everything was fine … he ate it all up … I think he was paralyzed due to the fall. I had him on this nice cushion inside a plastic box. He was sleeping … then sadly, he was gone. So I just got in from burying him in my garden. So, I’m not doing good at this writing.
Peace.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 7:16pm
Wini says:
Beverly, there is a parable I wrote to Henry chatting with him a few nights back. He was down in the dumps and this parable just popped into my mind. The one about the turtle and the scorpion.
You just never know what people pull out of your brains on these blogs. Something they write or a conversation that you are having … the urekka, out pops a memory they’ve stirred up… so I wrote it back to him.
I also remembered seeing these movies (again) after my EX left and realized he took most of his m.o. from these movies. Clip, clip here, clip, clip there … and that become his lifestyle … along with what I did for him. Sad. It makes me so sad inside knowing that they are ALL so screwed up inside. It just breaks my heart that they live year after year like this … in their BIG EGOS … without realizing God give us everything we need. If we want more, God provides those requests too. Very simple. Yet them living in their egos makes everything so difficult, not only for them, but everyone else they run into on their journey through life. I’m telling you, the courts have got to change things around and not assuming they are all has beens … Tolle explains how the ego works from God’s perspective, not what the egos and their assumptions are. It should be mandatory that Tolle’s book and the Bible are must reads for anyone doing time. Their release should be supervised by those in halfway houses ensuring Tolle’s theories are repeated and encouraging them step by step to go out in the world being humble and reading the word of God instead of living by what they’re egos dictate.
Peace.
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Monday, 14 July 2008 @ 7:29pm
style1 says:
What a good blog..I was led here from another.. and it just reaffirmed the way that I was hooked in, what good insights.. and how expert the predators are. Do they consciously know what they are doing? Mine was very intelligent and read all the time.. and studied and had a degree in Philosophy, religion, and history and read new age, spiritual type things all the time.. he studied people.. he watched.. was it consious the way that he played me and others? Or out of his neediness to have control and be in a marriage like relationship… I never was totally hooked in so the emotional toll wasn’t as bad as it might have been. I say through him on levels .. his love love love, his I have been looking for you all my life.. his “you are my soulmate”..blah blah blah and blah..
what he needed was a place to live… sure, he wanted that love relationship but he little ability for intimacy… yet he hooked me in my that pathway to pleasure … phone calls, flowers, attention that made me feel so cared for even as it suffacated me…
what a nightmare … what strangeness..
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:06pm
style1 says:
Yeah.. I just read what I wrote in the blog above and get it.. and it is true..
But just got back from the grocery store and was recallng last year and us being together … and my calls to him about what he wanted and what to cook and this and that…and this year I am with out a partner.. oh, I have spent many holidays with out a partner.. but he and I spent two Christmases togehter..so YEP.. I find myself wondering .. is he thinking of me.. does he miss me … is he with someone else.. BLAH BLAH BLAH…GEEZ! crosses my mind to call him to wish him Merry Christmas… my stomach is queasy…..has he replaced me already? All those thoughts.. too much time to think and remember.. and I wasn’t even all that happy with him last Christmas but he was here with me…
all these thoughts and feelings.. and the ups and downs… Blah!
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 4:24pm
eileen says:
Hi Style1 – I just posted something in another thread on what a sadist my S is – he is definitely conscious of what he does – very calculated, refined sadism… I was surprised when I met him first, that unlike other men on a first date he wasn’t going on about himself, but instead he was asking me lots of questions – to find out how best to hook me, of course. Also tried to work out if I had many friends etc. I didn’t realise in real time but I do now. He read a lot of psychology. Only way they can learn about emotions to fake them and manipulate others’. Sorry if I’m a bit blunt there…but if he is a sociopath he doesn’t miss you at all (or maybe he misses the lifestyle/status he enjoyed thanks to you), and yes he is on the hunt for his next victim or already has one, if not a few on the go.
and above all don’t call him! try and limit your thoughts about him this christmas to hoping his turkey chokes him.
Be patient with yourself – I’m the same when I feel lonely I miss the illusion he gave me – that’s the way it goes, try and be rational, keep reading the blog, it will help
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 5:04pm
style1 says:
Eileen.. yes.. the seaon has me thinking back to the dream of what he created… He met me three months after the death of his last wife and was in love with me in two weeks..
So yes, we have been apart a long time.. so he has probaly met his next place to live…and I don’t even cross his mind..and when he talked about her .. I felt no loss or affection for her coming from him. But accordng to him it was over in the first few months of the marriage.. but he couldn’t afford a divorce so they stayed together.. he let her live in his out out of kindess even though she was violent.. then she died of a perscriptio overdose.. When I asked him about her.. the only good thing that he said is that she was really good looking.. and he married her after like two weeks of knowing her.. then she got fat because apparently she stayed in bed all the time.. it was a bizarre story.. as it became revealed to me.. and when I would inquire further.. he would say don’t talk about the dead..
And his second wife the one that molested his daughter he claimed was also violent.. and she was also an alcholic.. yet he had two kids with this woman and one died of a brain tumor and her son before him died of an overdose.. his history is a nightmare..
then he meets me.. and accuses me of being violent when I punch him in the arm… and I have never been called violent in my life… and a man that I workout with.. I punch in the arm to make a point and he laughs… I asked him if he thought that I am violent since I punch him in the arm.. and he looked at me ‘Like.. what!?’
Okay.. I am pulling out of my melancholia now… I need to go workout..
So yeah.. if he had the opportunity to meet a woman with resources.. and that he could sell on his romantic, spiritual con.. and the big deals that he has in the works that will enable him to give her the world.. he would move in with her.. and start taking over her life…
!@#$%^&*
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 5:25pm
eileen says:
Hi Style – his history… it just doesn’t add up… my guess is that he was the abusive one in all those relationships…you write it’s a nightmare, but it could also be totally part of the scam. They have a habit of turning stories around – they are not that creative in their lies, they use the truth and distort it completely to their advantage. My ex sold me a similar story of family abuse, with him emerging not only as a victim but as a hero protecting his siblings…then blah blah blah whatever – whatever. Nothing was true. He has always been an abuser. Sociopaths thrive on pity but they don’t deserve it…if their lives is a mess now it’s their own fault… he certainly doesn’t deserve your melancholia…
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 5:43pm
style1 says:
Eileen… thanks..just talked to my Dad and he asked about him.. and told me that he thought that I had a good one with him.. hen I told Dad that I was feeling a bit lonely this year…
This guy really turned it on for my Dad.. and he acted like he adored me which my Dad thought .. great this man loves my daughter and will take good care of her..
Right! When this guy was setting me up.. I haven’t told Dad the full deal.. why bother…
I again need to go work out..
I agree that his history doesn’t pan out … if he calls me violent when he claims that he was married to a woman that came after him with a knife, molested his children and was an alcoholic…
My friends agree.. something is off in his history.. why so many violent woman and when I asked what triggered their violence.. He didn’t have a clue…
When I punched him in the arm .. I know why.. I was frustrated as all get out….
soooooo one of my girlfriends… known me for 15 years.. told me if this guy calls you violent he can’t see straight.. you are the most not violent and caring woman that there is…
She told me to get rid of him.. that he won’t allow you to show your feelings.. that you must do and feel as he wants..
But I still have this little lonely lost feeling.. that hopefully will vanish after I workout hard….
This site really helps….to vent…
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 6:04pm
eileen says:
You should really – work out, yes
– and tell your dad the truth. It helps when your friends and relatives know what you’ve been through. It’s an eye opener for everyone as well – the more people are aware of what sociopaths do the better…I told everyone I knew who had met him (“you know that lovely guy you saw me with – he had other women at the same time took money from me lied about everything and has become a menace since I found him out”) – it’s unlikely they ever see him again so it’s nothing to do with him – but it’s important to share the knowledge. Enjoy the workout!
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 6:11pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
dear eileen and style:
“My ex sold me a similar story of family abuse, with him emerging not only as a victim but as a hero protecting his siblings…then blah blah blah whatever – whatever” MINE FREAKIN’ TOO.
SYMPATHY, EMPATHY, ONE STEP’S SUCKER SIGN ON HER FOREHEAD!
The spath i tangled with had a bunch o’ sock puppets and she GAVE THEM PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS…GEEZUS!
Style, I find it ver therapuetic to ’send them up’, so if you want to get into poking some fun at that POOOOOR sad thang, I’m game!
I actually had a little fantasy today about creating a ’sock puppet’ video for you tube.
and there would be a ‘really big shoe’ in it also. (the other one that ‘HE’ was always fearing was going to fall on ‘his’ head) it feel alright but not on him/her. IF FEEL ON F**KIN’ ME and the COUNTLESS OTHERS she HAS DUPED.
(of course there would only be ONE sock needed. preferable something I could wear in my work boots for the winter….snort!)
need someone to do the voices for me. accepting audition tapes now.
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 6:49pm
style1 says:
Well.. I worked out and feel better.. but still am sad…
My Dad is 85.. I have told him some things about the guy.. but not all.. the deal is that he gave such a good impression o how much he cared for me.. and he was on the board of a bank and his CV was impressive and he behaves so well and is attracted.. that my Dad was sold.. he even offered to pay for our wedding.. to which neither of us said a word.. but he also told him that I had been though so much and that if he hurts me that he will have him killed.. which of course, was just his way of saying don’t hurt my daughter… I do recall when Dad said that he was eating but he kind of gulped…
The whole thing is still bizarre to me at times.. I was looking at photos of us last year… and while I wasn’t happy … it looked like we were.. we looked like the darling middle-adged couple..
I will tell Dad more when I see him next.. he just wants so badly for me to have a good man in my life.. all my men have turned out to be jerks on some level..My first one.. could give Tiger a run for it.. Married him right out of college.. and he lived a double life.. I mean it goes on and on and just one creep after another.. but sophisticated creeps.. educated, looks good but bad.. and I was always the one harmed…. it’s amazing that I am still standing.. it is my faith in God and I liv well and honorably… I have even had to file a sexual harrassment lawsuit against a prominent financial advisor in out community who contacted me to write a book with him..
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Tuesday, 22 December 2009 @ 9:21pm
kim frederick says:
I thought I’d reach into LF’s bag of tricks and bring this one back.
Hens,dear heart, this one is for you….and all the rest of us as well.
I was thinking about you last night as I tried to sleep, and wondered what it was that was triggering your sense of lonliness, and why you were missing him so much.
I feel that way once in a blue moon, now…not often, but occasionally, and it always helps to insist that I be honest with myself. I won’t allow myself to stay long in rose colored glasses land….
When I pull my focus away from the very few and far between moments of contentment, and the fleeting sense I had of happiness; when I force myself to see it for what it was: a rollar-coaster ride through hell, I quite missing him, and become truley grateful it’s over!
Hens, I don’t think you miss HIM, so much as you are just lonely and wanting that special connection that we all want…
But like the above article says, the pleasure we truley got out of the relationship was gone long ago…all that’s left is the craving.
In healthy relationships, we still derive real pleasure, not just a harrowing, crazy making memory that teases and taunts, often drawing us back into hell.
Hope you’re feeling better, Hens.
And here’s hoping all my LF friends have a wonder filled day.
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Wednesday, 28 July 2010 @ 8:46am
Buttons says:
Kim, you are so awesome – this relates to everyone’s healing process, I think. God bless you!
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Wednesday, 28 July 2010 @ 8:56am