Understanding that sociopaths murder the spirit
PDF Here is an e-mail exchange that recently took place between me and a Lovefraud reader:
Arlene: I was married to a man for 23 years. I found out so much in the last few years. He murdered my soul, my spirit, and financially devastated me. He moved another woman … brainwashed my children. My 18 yr old now is on cocaine…she was a nice girl…he has trashed her also and she is not living with me. The children now that were close to me are not empathetic and cold.
He grew in power and is an intellectual. He spread vicious rumors about me to cover his tracks. I am just to move on. Even though I was such a devoted mother and this family was my life. I have tried everything to recover and I am alone. You see I have no extended family. Some friends but they have their own lives.
For me I cannot forget my children… I am human…I have such pain daily. I feel nonexistent in my life. I cannot recover from the loss of my family and to see them turn out cold and unloving is too much than I can bear. I pray everyday for God just to take me home. Because living life without love is no life at all.
I was more into the connection of my family’s life and he made sure I was disconnected, so well planned. I repeat many of the scenarios I read on your love fraud…so I know I am not alone. Like one day … I was thrown out of my life planned…I was used all those years … and treated like trash and devalued. The loss of my soul…the loss of my smile…my hopes…my dreams. I just want to die.
Donna: Please do not act on your statements. I truly understand the pain and devastation that you are feeling, but you must not give in to it. Sociopaths are evil. They are professional manipulators. Whatever happened is not your fault. You did not deserve it. The best thing you can do is to recover.
Please seek professional help. Make sure whatever counselor you see understands sociopaths, because not all of them do.
Arlene: Yes they are evil. But you see I have been to counseling …and it does not make it any easier. Because normal people have human connections and emotions and they have none. I cannot forget the memories of my children…my children have turned out as manipulators themselves and with no empathy. I never thought it would be possible. But he not only damaged me…he damaged them permanently.
THANK YOU FOR CALLING it EVIL because no one understands but us…it is entirely different than a normal divorce or split up. When you come in contact with evil it seems to change you for the rest of whatever life you have. If you are young…there is a better chance of recovery because you can start maybe with a new family. I am turning 50 years and I was looking forward to the connections with my children for the future and the grandchildren and that is all gone now. It seems that I wasted all those years and all the work I did was for nothing. But thank you for your comments they mean so much as I know that you really understand where I am coming from.
Understanding
I wish there was a formula, a prescription, a therapy, for making the pain inflicted by sociopaths—such as Arlene is experiencing—go away. I don’t know of any.
All Lovefraud can offer is understanding.
First of all, Lovefraud helps people understand what they are dealing with. Sociopaths have no heart, no conscience and no remorse. They feel no emotional connections to other people. They have no family and friends, only prey and pawns. People who have tangled with a sociopath are not stupid, they were targeted.
Secondly, Lovefraud is becoming a community of people who understand and can empathize with the experiences of those who have been targeted. We know what it’s like to be deceived, bankrupted, assaulted and then ignored by people in authority while the sociopaths go on their merry ways.
I can only hope that these two types of understanding can serve as a foothold, a starting point, a ray of hope, so that the victims like Arlene can begin recovery.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
superkid10 says:
Good tip. How did you find this? I ordered a book from lowen.
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skylar says:
A few months ago I was researching therapy for borderlines, for a “friend” who might be.
Someone at the University of washington has developed a treatment that is moderately successful. It’s the DBT therapy that I linked earlier. A person by the name of “Echo” posted about Lowen’s theories, on that site.
From there I researched Lowen and found this other stuff. It’s actually a guy named Reich that originated these ideas and there is speculation that he had some psychopathic tendencies himself.
The author of this site, lives in Seattle.
Edit: there’s so much good info, that I can’t decide which book to order.
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Ox Drover says:
Sky, where is the link to the Uni of Washington’s development of DBT therapy for borderline PD? Thanks.
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skylar says:
Oxy,
from http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/
Marsha Linehan’s page:
http://www.behavioraltech.org
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superkid10 says:
Sky yes lots of great material. I always resell my books or I would be dirt poor, can’t afford my reading habit, ha!, so starting with just one and see what I think. Thanks for pointing the way.
I want my happiness back.
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Ox Drover says:
Thanks Sky, I looked DBT up….basically what we “teach” here as far as controlling your behavior and emotions…though we are not calling it that per se…
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skylar says:
Oxy,
yep, if you read Marsha’s vignette about her own struggles, she talks about being in pain because the life she wanted and the life she was living were so disconnected. Her therapy begins with facing the life we are living NOW and then also deciding to make changes in our selves.
I think it has a lot of Buddhist connections, in that it’s about facing reality at all times, rather than living a lie like the spaths do.
SK,
One serving of happiness, coming up…
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Ox Drover says:
Spaths are not the only ones who “live the lie”—I think we do as well, in the case of us DENYING what is going on with the psychopath and what they are doing to us. We give excuses of why we will tolerate what they do, we forgive them and restore trust to them…but it is only when we ADMIT THE TRUTH TO OURSELVES that we can free ourselves from the drama-rama.
You know the 10 Commandments, well there is another one, the 11th commandment and it is DO NOT FOOL YOURSELF. I think more of us violate that 11th commandment than all the other 10 put together!
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panther says:
Oxy, you’re funny…and RIGHT. My ex, in his final throes, demanded that I admit he is an angel and that it is my lack of human compassion that prevents me from forgiving him. Right there, he was actually TELLING ME what he was intentionally manipulating in me! For him, “human compassion” is the translation for “fool” and he was banking on me ALWAYS being like that!!!! He knew that I had a high regard for humanity and then tried to make me feel like a bad person for withholding my own good nature from his claws. If I had bothered to respond (I was NC already at this point) I would have said something like, “Yeah, I see you sociopath! I know what you really are! I see you and I do NOT forgive you!” Yet, because I now see him, I know that even THIS would be a “win” from his view, and I didn’t have even that much left for him. Oh, no. Nothing. No more denial here.
And, because there is a discussion about BPD in here, I wanted to ask about it. My ex who I think is a sociopath to the T said that he was actually diagnosed with BPD. I think his psychologists missed the mark there, because he fits the profile of a spath much better. However, are the disorders similar? I don’t know a whole lot about BPD. I have been researching sociopathy and everything I read just rings bell and bell. Yet could I have been with a BPD person?
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MiLo says:
Panther ~
The P/daughter was also diagnosed with BPD. I wonder sometimes if the mental health professionals try to “stay clear” of the psychopath/sociopath diagnosis and just go as far as BPD.
P/daughter was a cutter, but only AFTER she became acquainted with someone else who cut herself. I have always felt that this was another one of her “copied” symptoms. Her cuts were always very superficial, much more like she ran through a briar patch and only happened when P/daughter was not getting the attention she demanded.
I always wonder about this subject.
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panther says:
Oh I think BPD can be either Bipolar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder. I meant Borderline, but which one did you mean?
Maybe I have the acronym wrong.
Yeah, my ex was once a cutter. He also hospitalized other people on a regular basis in high school. If I were the psych, I’d have gone with sociopath/P even though he cut himself too. I think he did it because he wanted to look like a “badass” and needless to say, it must have been for show, because the one time he accidentally hit a big vessel or whatever and was bleeding madly, he made sure his parents whisked him off to the hospital. Then again, everything I know about his history is based on what he’s told me…maybe he was never diagnosed…maybe he never cut (though he has scars)….who knows.
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MiLo says:
I was talking about Borderline, although P/daughter was also diagnosed with Bipolar at one time.
Her cutting did not start until she was over 20 and had moved from home. It started right after she met a girl in the ER who was a cutter. She was very fascinated with this girl, then BINGO, she started cutting her arms. Like I said, the cut marks looked more like scratches and it was always when she wasn’t getting attention from her friends and/or significant other at the time.
When she was in high school, her two best friends were not paying enough attention to her (her words) so she told them she had AIDS. She went all out with this con, and had them believing this for over 6 months. The friends were devastated and she got all the attention she wanted.
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skylar says:
Panther
my understanding is that the borderline and the spath behave very similarly but the internal state is different. The borderline actually feels things very intensely and for long periods, whereas the spath feels nothing most of the time and his periods of raging are short lived.
They both will yoyo you though.
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Ox Drover says:
Having a personality disorder does NOT MEAN that the person cannot also have other mental health issues from depression to Bi-polar, in fact, MANY PSYCHOPATHS are ALSO bi-polar AND ADHD as well, some are all THREE….and for some odd reason more psychopaths are LEFT HANDED than would be expected by pure chance. The “Trojan Horse Psychopath” that afflicted our family was ASPD, Bi-Polar, ADHD and left handed, all four! Bi-polar by itself can be a real problem, but when a psychopath is also bi-polar, the manic stages especially, can be very problematic with them breaking the law. The mania causes them to feel invincable as well as little impulse control so makes them more apt to give in to impulses to rob, rape or steal without any internal controls at all to stop and consider the consequences.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Ox;
There may be a link with womb Testosterone levels.
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panther says:
Womb testosterone levels? You mean mommas are cooking spaths?
Ox, I dated 4 (pretty sure) sociopaths. 3 of the 4 were left-handed. Only the last one was AMBIDEXTROUS which somehow just sounds even more ominous now that I put it into context with the rest of him. Yet, he was primarily right-handed. I actually remember being relieved when I learned he wasn’t left-handed, which might hint that my subcon was on to the left-handed connections ages before the rest of my brain caught up with this pattern in my partner selection. It had associated left-handedness with danger, which was just too abstract back then, so it didn’t really help me understand what was really going on much better.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Panther;
Pre-natal exposure to higher than normal testosterone levels is linked to sociopathy, autism, left-handedness, homosexuality, ring finger – index finger length ratio and a number of other conditions.
I am a gay male and my observation is that in the gay community there is a higher prevalence of sociopathic behavior than in the straight community and this is somewhat evidenced by high HIV rates even though every gay male is very educated regarding HIV prevention…
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panther says:
Hi blue_eyes,
Wow, interesting. So, is it the high testosterone levels naturally in the mother, or does the father have anything to do with that? I am guessing it must be the mother (oh, this explains SO MUCH about my ex….his mother’s side of the family is a long line of psychopaths/sociopaths).
I find your observation of the gay community very interesting. The fact that you are on LF tells me that you must have encountered a sociopath, right? And was it a gay sociopath? I hadn’t even put a lot of thought into what that might be like. Now, this might sound very close-minded, but I was aware of the higher HIV rates in the gay community, but I had attributed that to that old cliche: When two men are together, who puts on the breaks? I mean, traditionally, the stereotype is that women put on the breaks and men hit the gas pedal when it comes to sex. I have had many many gay friends (I am from California for goodness sake), and they have always seemed about 10 times more sexually active than any women or even straight men I knew. I don’t know if this has something to do with sociopathy (they didn’t seem like sociopaths at all) or to do with a high libido plus poor impulse control. My gay friends are some of the most promiscuous people I’ve ever met in my life. Maybe it is just the ones I know, but I’d always associated the higher HIV rate to promiscuity, not sociopathy. The promiscuity almost seems like a defiant “middle finger” to the societal pressure telling the gay community that they shouldn’t be enjoying their own sexuality. Still, I don’t think I’d lead that to sociopathy.
However, I am curious as to whether or not you’ve encountered a gay sociopath and what that was like (probably devastating, since he was a sociopath, no matter what his sexual preference)
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Panther;
Yes, I did have an encounter with a gay person who I believe was a sociopath. This short-term relationship came at a very bad time for me and i was deeply affected. I thank many here for not only support but being able to accept that this person was in fact a sociopath.
Interestingly, this person was more a “female-type” sociopath than the typical male sociopath. He not physically violent but he was manipulative, lying and “covert-agressive,” also prone to odd and inappropriate actions, the best example being is storming out of a very nice restaurant merely because I asked him back to my place for a beer. Outside he protested that “offended his British reservedness…”
Later I would learn that I would learn that at the very time he was protesting his “innocence,” online he was very active in numerous gay dating and porn sites. One profile his hobbies were listed as “boys, beers, talk, then some fooling around…” Apparently, this kind of behavior is a trait often seen in female sociopaths: playing innocent with while simultaneously being promiscuous on the side…
Regarding the gay community in general, yes, a good deal of the promiscuity come from there not being anyone to “put on the brakes” as you say. However, this alone does not explain why HIV rates are 20 times higher among gay men who are very well educated regarding HIV prevention. Since promiscuity, risk taking and substance abuse are defining characteristics of sociopaths, and these three traits combined are often seen in gay men, its possible that higher levels of sociopathy in gay men contribute to the high HIV levels among gay men.
Statistics support this as well, with about half of new HIV infections coming in those with many, many sexual partners with the other half of new HIV infections coming from those who are not particularly promiscuous but “unlucky.”
I believe that promiscuous HIV+ individuals have a much higher than normal percentage of sociopaths among them and on more than one occasion I have heard somebody who I know to be HIV+ talking about have insertive unprotected sex with people and not telling these people of their status.
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Ox Drover says:
BBE,
A person is actually “more kin” to the mother than to the father. The Mitocondrial DNA is passed intact from mother to child…and the male has ONLY his mother’s M-DNA, but his children will inherit their mother’s DNA so there is that aspect, but also as you mentioned, the mother’s womb is an environment totally controlled by the mother. Also “environment” even inside the womb for even IDENTICAL TWINS (Identical DNA) is not exactly the same as one child may get more or less blood supply or nutrition, etc. than the other.
Research has shown too, that if a child is nutritionally deprived enutero they will be born somewhat mentally retarded, BUT because a female’s eggs are formed before birth, HER children will also be retarded for 3 generations even if they were to get ideal nutrition after birth…but a male, even though MR himself, will NOT pass on the MR to his offspring (if it is caused by starvation) so a famine where children are starved before they are born, will effect that population for 3 generations, on the female side, with mental retardation.
Even in areas where there is available food, when you consider how some of our teenagers EAT—and how their children are deprived of proper nutrition before birth—you wonder why these kids are slow? If you add in that the lack of folic acid causes ALL cases of spina-bifida and also many other defects of the spine and brain…I sometimes wonder how we have as many NORMAL kids as we do.
I think as science advances, BBE, we will find all kinds of issues with “enviroment” and “nutrition” in what goes on with our children. BTW, I agree with you that there are a higher number of People with high P traits in the gay community, and I think it gives “gay’s a bad name”—-sort of like the high number of People with High p-traits in lawyers gives lawyers a bad name. LOL
What’s the old lawyer joke about “99% of lawyers give the other 1% a bad name.” LOL I love to tell Matt (our gay lawyer on LF) all the lawyer jokes, but I dearly love that guy, he is really a sharp cookie….I wish he posted more frequently now, but he’s going on with his new life, new love and his new job, so I am sure he is busy!)
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Ox;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Överkalix_study very interesting study which may indicate that sociopathic traits can be passed from father to son via an epigenetic route.
Regarding the gay community yes it is a minority percentage that gives the community a bad name but their effect is enormous.
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Ox Drover says:
BBE, I have no doubt that genetics are a big part of psychopathic traits in people, but also environment as well. Plus, genes can lie dormant and then be “turned on” at various ages and conditions. My P son and others I hvae known became VERY HIGH IN P TRAITS at puberty, and I suspect that testosterone levels increasing had something to do with it. BTW, women also produce testosterone as well as males, just not as much. And I suspect that the amount of Testosterone varies with individuals quite a bit even within a “normal” range.
I also believe that DNA and/or environment contributes to “gayness,” (for lack of a better word) and there are several species of animals that have high percentages of “gay” individuals, especially among the males (sheep, for example, will have about 10% males that are “gay” acting) as well females that will “act” like males sexually, Cattle/bovine are/is one species that comes to mind.
I am glad that people who are gay are suffering LESS bias in our society and I hope that trend continues. I have a step-granddaughter who is gay, and it is important to me that she be accepted as a PERSON, not by her sexual orientation. She has a stable long-term relationship partner and I am glad that she is happy. Her mother had a difficult time accepting her for who she is, but finally did so, and I am glad about that. Many members of the gay community do not have that advantage and I am glad that she does.
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Ox Drover says:
BBE, I followed some of those links for the studies and found some interesting stuff….along the lines of what you and I have been talking about. Audrey Hepburn was one of my favorite actresses…interesting about her beiing in the Netherlands during that time.
I ididn’t notice anything in the articles about IQ being effected by the famine when the children were of various trimesters though, but the one I remember from school was that even if the kids had IDEAL nutrition after birth, that the eggs were so damaged pre-birth that it took 3 generations for the effects to be undone, even with ideal nutrition in females, but I am suspecting that because men generate sperm anew rather than are born with all the sperm they will have (like females are born with all the eggs they will ever have, though those eggs are not yet “mature” they are there) they are more likely to produce “good” sperm down the line.
Poor diet of the mother also effects dental health in children as well, and I suspect there are MANY THINGS about us that are effected by our ancestor’s nutrition and environment. I have seen it here in children from families which have been VERY poor for generations, I can almost “SEE” that in children from the appearance of those children, it is a color of the skin, the bone structure etc., that seems to “shout” POOR NUTRITION FOR GENERATIONS. There was a family who lived near me when I was a teenager that had 13 or 14 kids, 1 a year, and they were all so poor, and the infant had a cry that was like a WAIL, it was a cry that I have never heard in a healthy infant who was not TRULY hungry. To this day, it is inside my head, I cannot forget that cry…I heard it in 3rd world countries as well.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Ox;
One can only imagine the epigenetic effects of alcohol and drug abuse on succeeding generations. Perhaps even contributing to certain cultural preferences to alcohol, for example.
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FightAnotherDay says:
Okay,
This is strange, so I am putting it out there for all of you.
Today I recived the following e-mail from my Spath (Jerkface)’s wife (Jerkette).
From her work e-mail to my work e-mail.
“FAD,
I just wanted to send you a quick email to apologize for this morning. I was not sure at first it was you that pulled in and waved, as I did not think you would be at Jr.’s pre-school since I was dropping him off. But, I noticed that you were bringing his bedding. It was still kind of dark so I am not sure you saw me smile.
I do not want there to be any hard feelings, as it is important for us to get along and have a good relationship for Jr.’s sake. I hope that you, Jerkface, myself, and whoever else will be in Jr.’s life/step-father in the future can all have a relationship, get along, and be there for Jr. As he gets older and does different things throughout his school years I am sure we will all be in the same place at the same time, and I am sure we would all want it to be as comfortable as possible. Jr. needs to see us all working together and being there for each other so he has no stress.
Again, I apologize for not waving back to you this morning.
Jerkette”
Even jerkface does not e-mail me at work…actually he does not know my NEW work e-mail. I am a teacher so she likely looked it up.
I feel like I should reply…should HAVE replied, but I don’t know what to say.
She is the person who types and writes in the journal horrible things like, “Who watches Jr. while you are in bed for days with depression?” (Which I do not do or have).
Can she honestly say she cares about our relationship while writing disparaging, defamatory and harassing e-mails and journal entries to me?
Do you think Jerkface knows she wrote this to me?
What should I do/say?
Thanks
FAD
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skylar says:
Hi FAD,
I just got home and saw your dilemma.
She gets these ideas from him, but I do believe she is a spath since she cheated with jerkface in your home while you were married.
Since she is a spath, your best bet is to show no emotion. You really should not have waived at her and smiled. I think your best bet now is to respond with, “Oh, was that you? I thought you were someone else. It WAS dark. Sorry.”
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superkid10 says:
FAD
I agree with Skylar. Jerkette may be a spath. Maybe not, but maybe.
Certainly no urgent or fast response is required. In fact, it could be detrimental.
Do some version of grey rock or potted plant – if you respond at all. You could simply ignore it and just be your normal pleasant self in the future, as always.
Superkid
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FightAnotherDay says:
I don’t know that sleeping with Jerkface in our home is spathy, but I thought the second paragraph was.
Does she sound spathy. I actually hope she isn’t because Jr. needs something normal when he is there.
I only thought of saying, “No problem. I figured you might not have realized it was me.”
I only waved because I was not supposed to be there, and I was pointing to Jr.s bedding. I did not want it to get back to jerkface that I was at day care…although she obviously saw I had brought the bedding. I was nervous as hell. I even drove past originally, but still got there too early. She was leaving as I pulled up.
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skylar says:
BBE,
I often wonder what caused my spath to become the way he is. His father was a spath, but not all of his brothers are. One was for sure but he died. He had kids all over the place.
As far as testosterone in the womb, I have read the same thing you did, and also that high testosterone in the womb is caused by 2 or more consecutive male babies.
So if you have 2 or more older brothers, you are more likely to be gay (even if you are a girl).
Since my spath was the 4th boy of 6 boys, (and the other spath bro was 5th) there was probably a high level of testosterone in the womb. The 6th brother doesn’t seem spath, just dumb and a racist redneck.
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skylar says:
FAD,
To fall in love with jerkface and want to sleep with him, is a human foible. To do it in his wife’s bed, is malicious and vindictive. It shows she wants to BE YOU. She wanted your position. She is envious.
I know of another person who did that and she is spath. The idea was to do something that would really make you sick if you found out. Which you did.
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FightAnotherDay says:
Don’t want to argue…especially if it sounds like i am defending her, but HE was the one who had her over, and I know how calculating he is.
The only reason I know they did it in the house was because I had tape recorder running.
He had already chosen her over me, was on a mental health leave because of what he did, and ordered to see a therapist. The house was already on the market.
He denies they did it in the house to this day.
Just thought the WHOLE story might change things. He had been working on her for years; he had her snagged before we were even married.
he’s not even good looking
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ElizabethBennett says:
FAD-I unfortunately was the OW in my relationship with my spath-I was conned. What I did was bad enough but going anywhere near your home, much less sleeping with him in your home, sounds really evil and spathy to me. I know I am not a spath but I was victimized by one. All I can say was that I never even knew where my spath lived for sure until we broke up. I did find out afterward-since he was smearing me and had threatened to attack. Like ErinB says-I always wanted to know where he was, and he doesn’t live that from me-in the same suburb of the city. Sleeping with him in your home is EVIL!
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FightAnotherDay says:
So what do you think?
“No problem. I figured you might not have realized it was me.”
or
“No hard feelings. You must have been surprised to see me there.”
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ElizabethBennett says:
I would have ignored the email or said what Sky said-I thought you were someone else. My spathy sister emailed me the other night trying to manipulate me by using her daughter and then tried to make me accept N mother back into my life. I ignored the email.
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FightAnotherDay says:
ElizabethBennett,
Yeah. I guess you don’t know until it happens to you. You probably didn’t even know yours was married.
I have had married men touch me and I am immediately turned off.
Jerkette actually met me, and we sent her the baby pictures.
She did tell me that he stopped loving me three months into the marriage. And they figured they were sole mates, he just got impatient and married the wrong girl (because she was married at the time). It all sounded like stuff he fed her.
All I hope is that they don’t last. Please dear LORD.
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FightAnotherDay says:
I don’t have the guts to say what sky would say.
Why does this even bother Jerkette….nothing needed to be said and now i AM here “holding the bag”!!!
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ElizabethBennett says:
You have the guts to do whatever you want!
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skylar says:
FAD,
you say you don’t have the guts because you think she will KNOW that you are lying. But she won’t know. You have to say it as though you mean it – it’s easy in an email. Lie like a spath.
This will confuse her. And that’s what you want with spaths. Just ignore the rest of the “I want to be friends” crap. Act as though you are shocked to receive the email because you REALLY DIDN’T KNOW IT WAS HER.
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FightAnotherDay says:
This is just weird. I don’t want to deal with her. I want to be neutral. I know he has her thinking enough of me, and if I am as awful as he says I am, why would she care if I like her or not. Especially because there were not witnesses.
Life would have gone on, and now she has made a big deal out of it…behind his back…really. He didn’t even have to know she didn’t wave to me.
I don’t want to live up to her false expectations of me.
I guess nothing in her e-mail deserves a reply does it?
It’s an apology. AHHHH.
Maybe, “No problem. I didn’t think anything of it.”
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Ox Drover says:
FAD,
I would not reply at all.
Keep in mind, that anything you say will be twisted one way or another and you are going to keep the drama going if you “say your lines” so I would IGNORE HER E MAIL.
The hateful things she has said to you are probably fed to her by him, but you know, she is the one writing them. So, I would not respond about anything she says that isn’t about Junior.
If you feel you must respond, I would just say. “I had to bring Junior’s bedding to school.” NOTHING ELSE, NO “DEAR JERKETTE” OR ANYTHING ELSE. Just the FACT
((((hugs))))
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