“Will I ever be the same” (Part 2)
PDF A syndrome called post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can affect victims of sociopaths. The trauma of losing love, friends, family, possessions and of enduring psychological/physical abuse is the cause of this disorder. To fight the symptoms of PTSD, it is helpful to understand the symptoms and how they relate to loss and trauma.
As I read through the current literature on PTSD, I quickly discovered that there is a fair amount of controversy regarding this disorder. We can actually learn about the disorder by listening to the arguments. The first question on which there is much disagreement is, “What trauma is severe enough to cause PTSD?” There were several editorials by experts disparaging the fact that everything from giving birth to a healthy baby to a boss yelling at an employee is now said to cause PTSD. Most experts are in favor of reserving this diagnosis for people who have suffered truly unusual life experiences, like kidnapping, rape, war, 911, etc.
The problem is that many people do experience severe stress reactions to difficult life circumstances. It remains to be determined what we should call these reactions.
Those of us healing from our relationship with a sociopath often vacillate between accepting the trauma and minimizing it. Thus, the argument about what kinds of trauma are severe enough to cause PTSD has a direct effect on us. The argument can leave us feeling weak, like we should be able to get over this. After all it wasn’t as bad as 911, Iraq or Katrina—or was it?
The second question is “what symptoms constitute PTSD?” The following table shows the most common symptoms seen in a group of 103 British men and women diagnosed by psychiatrists with PTSD (Current Medical Research Opinion, 2003):
| Symptom | Frequency (n=103) |
| Insomnia | 98 (95%) |
| Anxiety at reminder cues | 96 (93%) |
| Intrusive thoughts, images, sounds, sensations | 94 (91%) |
| Irritability | 93 (91%) |
| Poor concentration | 93 (91%) |
| Diminished interest in significant activities | 88 (85%) |
| Recurrent dreams of trauma | 86 (83%) |
| Avoidance of activities or places associated with the trauma | 85 (83%) |
| Foreshortening of expectations about the future | 80 (78%) |
| Detachment from others | 78 (76%) |
| Avoidance of thinking or conversing about the trauma | 75 (73%) |
| Poor appetite | 69 (67%) |
| Hypervigilance | 55 (53%) |
| Startle reactions | 46 (45%) |
| Acting or feeling as if the event was recurring | 37 (31%) |
| Inability to recall parts of trauma (amnesia) | 19 (18%) |
I put up this table because I thought that a number of you would also endorse these symptoms. Notice that “acting or feeling as if the event was recurring” was really not that common. But similar symptoms, like “Intrusive thoughts, images sounds and sensations,” were very common. Amnesia was also uncommon. Startle reactions were only seen in half of the subjects.
A feeling of a foreshortened future is a particularly debilitating symptom because it impairs a person’s ability to plan for the future and leads to a sense of hopelessness. I will expand on this further, but I strongly believe this feeling of a foreshortened future has to do less with our thoughts about our past, and more with our thoughts about our present.
As I look at this list of symptoms, I am struck by the fact that many, many of those writing into Lovefraud complain of these symptoms, particularly nightmares. There is something special about having had emotional involvement with an aggressor that seems to produce nightmares. Since so many have all of the most common symptoms, I think it has to be that the trauma of life with a sociopath is severe enough to cause this disorder in many people.
Here’s where defining exactly what trauma is gets sticky. Rachael Yehuda, Ph.D., said in a recent article published on MedScape, “One of the things that biology has taught us is that PTSD represents a type of a response to trauma, but not the only type of response. It is a response that seems to be about the failure to consolidate a memory in such a way as to be able to be recalled without distress.” Well, this is precisely the definition that is too broad. I personally have a lot of memories that I experience or re-experience with distress. Yet these memories are not accompanied by the list of symptoms in the table above.
For me what made the experience traumatic was the truly life course-changing nature of the trauma. The answer to the question, “Will I ever be the same?” for me defines trauma significant enough to cause PTSD. The trauma that causes this disorder redefines us in a way that is different from other emotionally significant experiences. This trauma strikes at the core of our identity.
The final controversy surrounds the treatment of PTSD. Interestingly, there is no question that medications (SSRIs, particularly Zoloft) are very helpful. The problem is though that when a person goes to a physician and receives a medication, he/she is by definition “sick.” Assumption of a “sick role” or “victim identity” is one of the many factors that slow recovery from PTSD.
Many therapists are of the belief that “debriefing” or retelling the story is necessary for recovery. One group of researchers reviewed the studies on debriefing and concluded that there is no scientific evidence that it prevents PTSD. Instead, the evidence points to post-trauma factors like social support and “additional life stress” being most important.
How can we put this all together? Considering last week’s post, those who experience trauma serious enough to have stress hormone overdose as manifested by dissociation, are likely to also develop PTSD. An examination of the symptoms of PTSD reveals that at the core of the disorder is the fact that the person really doesn’t believe in his/her heart that the trauma has ended. PTSD is about ONGOING, not past, trauma. For those of us whose lives were assaulted by a sociopath, there is ongoing stress. The stress is the social isolation, financial ruin, and threatened further losses long after the relationship has ended. Those who recover from this without PTSD work hard to put the trauma behind them in every way.
Putting the trauma behind you does not mean you can’t take medication to help with the process. It does mean facing those bills, former friends, and other personal issues you want to avoid. Remember AVOIDANCE STRENGTHENS FEAR.
Above all, stop the ongoing trauma by ending contact with the sociopath. Do not assume a sick role, instead, work to stay healthy. Fight to be the person you want to be. Don’t allow this single experience to define you. Make living for today the place you love to be. As Louise Gallagher says in her recent post, “This is, in many ways, the greatest challenge of recovery – to accept the past is simply the route I took to get to where I am today, a place I love to be. The past cannot be changed. It cannot be altered. It cannot be made ‘better.’ It can only be accepted so that it, and I, may rest in peace with what was, eager to accept what is true in my life today.”
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
Ox Drover says:
Hens, TIL they come back after they get out of the joint and burn your place to the ground! That’s the way my trashy neighbors would respond. LOL Fortunately, I do my best to keep on good terms with them so I at least know what is going on over there. The only one I don’t keep on “good terms” with is Crazy Bob, the guy across the road that sued me cause the plane my husband was killed in crashed in his pasture and he needed $50,000 to make him feel better. He was so traumatized you know! PUKE!!!!
He IS NUTS so I just leave him alone like a poison snake that isn’t in my yard. If he comes into my yard I tell him to GO HOME, BOB! So far it has worked he hasn’t been even seen in months.
Sometimes people respond like EB’s renters did, and other times they don’t CARE if they screw you no matter HOW NICE you have been to them. Believe me, I am SOOOOO glad to not have rental property any more. The last time I lived in an apartment the ho’s above me kept dumping their BBQ ashes on my patio (they lived over me) and just laughed when I asked them to not do that. I moved. Hope to heck I never ever EVER have to live in an apartment again. I’d rather live in a tent in the woods. The more I get to know people, the better I like my dog. That was either Will Rogers or Mark Twain said that, can’t remember which one. CRS!
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ErinBrock says:
!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hens – LOVE your letter!
and cudos re the dogs next door. really. my next step is blyaw.
EB – i tried the sweet stuff first thing when she moved in. i am now done.
sky – don’t care if i have already lost – still have to try one more thing. i already have a no smoking sign up. I am giving all my neighbors a letter specifically about smoking and hanging out around my window, ‘except the woman upstairs. i am going to deal only with the dog with her.
new letter – dealing specifically with the dog, because it is the most irritating ongoing:
Hi X
I am often woken by XY barking – three times last night (at 1 am, 3 am and then 8 am); the night before at 12:45; and ten other times since you moved in.
His jumping around is becoming louder as he gets bigger. And as cute as he is, it is darned noisy down here. I know that some of this ‘exuberance’ can be mitigated by training. I don’t expect him to completely stop all jumping around or to completely stop barking, but he has to become better mannered.
I know he is a young dog, and I realize you are still training him, but his barking is harassing (especially when you have people over and he barks during the period of their visit), and at night, it is not tolerable. He never barks when you are not home, so it is likely linked to wanting your attention. If you need help getting a handle on his training puppy school would be useful.
I would appreciate the opportunity to speak to you about this and figure out some solutions.
Thanks so much.
——————-and i am going to try not to add: I would appreciate the opportunity to speak to you about this and figure out some solutions, that don’t include a complaint to animal by-law.’
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KatyDid says:
one/joy
imho think letter should be short and sweet. for ex:
doggie barking becoming a real problem esp during night. we need to talk about solutions. call or knock asap. i’ll put the kettle on.
thx
one/joy
you’re being too nice and giving too many options in this letter. resolving doggie should not have ANY options, just solutions. i learned that in writing a complaint letter, you should specify only ONE goal and NO variations. yours needs to be a call to action which is a meeting about solutions.
a retriever in an apt? NOT an apartment dog… poor thing.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
katy thanks, VERY good feedback. the letter also needs to function as part of my case against her with bylaw (next move), so i do have to give a few specifics. will amend. thanks!
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Hens says:
Katy ”a retriever in an apartment – poor thing ‘ that is what I was thinking, wonder if they ever take it out for exercise and play time? retrievers go neurotic if they have nothing to do – same with most dogs – they like to do things.
Yap Oxy, your right about the trash revenge but they were takin over the neighborhood, yes they always get out and come back, but it’s like gophers, got to smoke em out or they take over – poison peanuts anyone?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hens – the dog is young – a few months old. she takes him out for a walk every day, but as he gets older the jumping around thing is getting worse. he is completely quiet when she isn’t home – really i think he sleeps most of the day.
she can’t control him – he takes her for a walk.
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KatyDid says:
one/joy
a puppy. a working breed dog. high energy. highly intelligent. it’s being terribly neglected and needs a different home. i call it abuse b/c the dog NEEDS are being withheld. as bad as not feeding a kid.
this problem is bigger than barking.
and you with your allergies, are not a multi unit occupation person. how soon to care for yourself, or you will get VERY sick. hens is right. sleep deprivation is TERRIBLE/Dangerous for you.
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superkid10 says:
I don’t know where else to post this thread.
I have been in therapy 2, maybe 3 years, probably 2. Early on I linked the abuse dished out by my mother, and my relationship with my spath, where I repeatedly banged my head against the wall wanting him to love me back.
I talked to my spath’s daughter early on about her father, my spath. I was trying to get her perspective on all the WTFs.
I was asking her some psych related questions, and she said, “you know, it’s so hard to think about your family, your dad, this way, it’s like doing surgery on your kid. IMPOSSIBLE.”
That’s where I am today.
I have no doubt my spath is a spath.
But now I am wondering about my mother. I have long held that she’s a N. Today my husband challenged me, he said she’s a SPATH. Why?
She hurts people to feel better about herself.
She’s selfish.
I’ve never seen her joyful.
I’ve never seen her sad.
She lies.
She is compulsive.
She is critical.
She earned her PHD to show up everybody else.
She does kind thing in public to get everybody to say, “oh, look how great Ellen is”.
She puts on great shows of being fun, kind, generous.
She has this seething anger.
She manipulates by being a martyer.
But I am too close to the forest to see the trees, and my husband is not a participant on LF, he is nowhere near as versed as anybody else here.
What is the difference between a N and a SPATH?
Does she sound more like spath?
It is important to me to make sense of this.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
katydid – allergies are not an issue, not forced air heating.
i don’t think he is neglected. just not being trained. i think golden’s are highly manipulative to get what they want….and he wants her attention when she is home. so he barks and jumps about and dollars to donuts she thinks it’s ‘cute’. i have never met a golden owner i liked (apologies to lf golden owners…i haven’t met you.)
i don’t think he is highly intelligent at all. just loads of energy. no, i don’t think he should be in an apt. but i don’t think he is neglected. if i did i would call animal control. i would never put a big dog in an apt. (except maybe a huge dog – they tend to be rather sedentary)
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
sk – my dad is an n, and i could apply that whole list to him, except one point: i don’t believe he hurts people to feel better about himself.
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2TimeSurvivor says:
Hens: LOVE your letter! I’ve always been a “cut to the chase” kinda’ gal…and you did that in spades!
One/Joy: Please don’t let your disrespectful neighbor and her hyper dog deny you your sleep. Maybe, rather than spelling it all out in a letter that she can ignore, you might try writing something short and somewhat sweet:
Dear X;
I love all animals and that includes your wonderful puppy, Buddy. But, I really, really hate being kept awake night after night due to Buddy’s barking, which he is probably doing because he waits all day to receive attention from you, as he never seems to bark while you’re away from him during the day.
Buddy is a true sweetie when he’s good, but I’m frustrated that he chooses to be good when you’re away from home and he’s the opposite when you’re home with him.
Unfortunately, I have serious health issues and I require a minimum of eight to ten hours of sleep each night. I’ve tried using earplugs, but they can’t overcome Buddy’s barking when he’s determined to command your attention.
Please contact me so that we can discuss an agreeable way to resolve Buddy’s nocturnal barking tendencies. If he’s keeping me awake every night, then I’m sure that you are as sleep-deprived as I am, if not worse.
Thanks so much for your understanding and for your prompt attention in resolving our “Sleepless in X-Town” problem.
Sincerely,
“One Life To Live So Don’t Mess With Me”
P.S. Almost forgot to mention that I’d also really appreciate it if you’d enter your apartment using the front entrance if you’re arriving home after 10 p.m. I go to bed very early because I must get up very early for my job and conversations and/or smoking under my window cause as many sleep- and health-related problems for me as Buddy’s middle-of-the night barking does. And, unfortunately, my employer tends to frown when I tell him that “I’m half-asleep while I’m working because the dog ate my dream time again.”
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2TimeSurvivor says:
One/Joy: Oops! Guess my contribution letter is a little late to the party. I see you’ve already figured out how to address the spastic dog and her disrespectful owner.
Oxy: I’m am so glad to know that we’re of the same generation. I definitely remember “Danger, danger, danger Will Robinson! Danger!” I don’t think it was from the ’60s, however. Seems more like the ’70s…but, I could be wrong. When it comes to stuff like that, it never seems as long ago as it really was.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hi 2T – i actually wrote a VERY short letter as per katydid’s suggestion and it’s in the neighbour’s mailbox.
‘ hi x, your dog’s barking and jumping about has turned into a serious problem, especially during the night. We need to talk about solutions. Please knock asap. I’ll put the kettle on.’
Thanks,
on joy
it’s friendly, but doesn’t give anything to her. it saves what i need to use for ‘solutions’ for the actual face to face. I don’t have to explain or defend my need for sleep or my health issues. none of her business.
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Ox Drover says:
Superkid,
Your question about your egg donor being an N or a P, actually she sounds like she is BOTH.
People who are “N”s” are not therefore eliminated from being Ps as well…or bi-polar, or ADHD, or left handed…they can be ALL of the above as well. In fact, many times people who are Ps are ALSO Bi-polar and ADHD and more often than in the general population, left handed as well.
All Ps are narcissistic, but not all narcissistic people are psychopaths.
The main thing that you must understand is that anyone who is TOXIC like she is: (see the list you posted) is not someone you want in your life. Good luck, and God bless.
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Ox Drover says:
One joy,
I like that VERY SHORT letter. Well done.
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superkid10 says:
One, Oxy
Thanks for the feedback. Yes. Toxic.
SK
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skylar says:
Superkid,
I think you know my take on it. The difference is the mask. N’s will not bother too much with masks. They feel entitled to do what they do. Psychopaths have quite an attachment to their masks because they know that if removed, you would see an empty space behind it, filled with the green slime of envy. People would shriek and run in horror. Can’t have THAT. So they play the nice, loving, sweet person. Of course they need to vent, so every once in a while they prepare the scene for a dramatic event where YOU caused them to throw a tantrum because of the way that YOU were behaving, etc…
The dichotomy of the mask vs. what’s behind the mask, is what makes a spath, IMO.
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2TimeSurvivor says:
One/Joy: Ditto on the kudos for the short letter sitting in your neighbor’s mailbox. Hope she appreciates and responds to your concerns! Good luck!
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superkid10 says:
Skylar,
Yes. I am contemplating that.
The bizarre thing is that my mom is just so shallow. She keeps so much going on that you can’t breathe long enough to see it.
I’m not sure if this is a mask or not.
Can I ask a question?
Somebody posted on here in the last day or two, a name that I don’t see often (not Erin, Not Hens, Not Oxy, not You, not One, not Louise)…..it was a link to an article that maybe she wrote? and in the article she mentioned a number of spath related websites. Perhaps Michael came from there?
Anyway I have been struggling to find that thread again.
The whole CLOWN thing was very instructive to me, I bet the MICHAEL thing woulda been but it was deleted already, I want to see more of it.
SK
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superkid10 says:
Ack, finally found the link.
moveingon says:
Donna, you are getting your message across and thank you for all your efforts otherwise I would have gone mad x I did make a contribution to this article re: “current wife”, the message is out there, thankfully.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/hom…..g-man.html
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skylar says:
Sk, check your email.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
the letter wording is pretty much katydid’s. it makes a whole lot of sense to me. really, i don’t want to talk to the neighbour – but i will. i am freaked out by her apparent lack of concern. she KNOWS there is a problem and doesn’t really care.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Sky and Sk – Sky’s theory about mask/ no mask works if i apply it to my dad and the spath – the diff is very clear.
i knew a murderer years ago – i am pretty sure he is a spath too. but he TOLD me some of what he had done – but i think it was very much done to control me. So sky, how do i apply your theory in this situation?
the n ex was furious when i challenged her perception of herself as the ‘all right, all loving all smart blah blah’ – so does that perhaps mean she is a spath? (AND she keeps repeating like bad beans…)
an n ex boss – would twitch when his mask slipped a bit. he was SO grandiose. he worked VERY hard to keep up appearances. of course many of the people around him were not greedy pigs and didn’t come from the corp. world he did and saw right through him. everyone around him was beholden to him. he left a swath of destroyed business relationships behind him, and would recommend that i call some of those people for things. of course i got an earful when i did. there was one guy in particular that my whole dept thought was bonkers…..oh yah, the n boss was so smooth that we all thought it was the other guy. the n boss even called me months after i challenged his supremacy as god and he fired me. he called to ‘see how i doing’ like he hadn’t fucked over everyone i knew (and me) 10 ways to sunday from day 1. he had decided to fire me and yet took me on a company trip to keep up appearances…spath?
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cathyannjones says:
I really appreciate the info on PTSD. I still get afraid if my motion sensor light goes on in the back yard at night, even though it’s often just the wind. I’m afraid that my ex or some of the people he owes money to for drugs are coming around. He still calls sometimes and I don’t answer any phone calls that I don’t recognize. He only calls our daughters to tell me that he needs me to call him, which I am not. It’s always the same, he wants to make me feel sorry for him so he can try to con me out of money. I’ve been divorced from him for 3 years, I wish he would just move out of state (or to another planet) so I can have peace. Everytime he contacts one of our daughters or calls me at work, I am edgy and don’t sleep and feel unsettled for days.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
cathyannjones – i am so sorry to hear that he haunts you still.
I am getting neurofeedback treatment for my PTSD. it is helping quite a lot in terms of my concentration and focus. not so much with the anger these days. i am not being stalked by my spath as you are, but have a bunch of narcs to deal with in my family.
are you getting some help with the PTSD?
i vote for him moving to another planet.
can you change your phone number?
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skylar says:
One,
It’s a continuum, so they can have some traits of each.
My mom works very hard. She is law abiding and keeps up appearances. But in the end, she created two sociopath kids and she maneuvered to destroy my life for no other reason than envy and control. All the while, she blessed me and kissed me goodbye when we parted. BTW, she never did this when I was a kid. No hugs or kisses until after I was 17 and moved away. HUH? To me that’s a P.
My brother has been in trouble with the law, killed kittens, lives in the basement and doesn’t work, addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling and porn – but too lazy to have sex with women except hookers. He pretends to be very spiritual and intellectually can hold interesting conversations. To me that’s an S.
Dad, thinks he’s the greatest. He is successful and charming and can’t have a conversation without talking about himself. He was in on the plot to control me and destroy my life, but he doesn’t hide the fact that he wants to control me. He doesn’t see anything wrong with that. My mom scapegoats him behind his back. LOL! To me, that’s an N.
It’s so hard to “call” someone’s PD if you’ve never met them. I think it’s an attitude thing. So you have to watch really carefully over a long period of time, especially if you’re trying to spot a P under that perfect mask of a saint.
My spath was a P, as far as the mask he showed me. But one might think he was an S by the way that he showed his evil side to this minions and the way he bragged about his cheating on me. But consider this: he showed everyone a different face. The people who knew he was cheating on me, didn’t know that he was bisexual. The people who knew he was going to have me commit suicide probably didn’t know he had killed others. The people who knew he had killed others, didn’t know that he would just as soon kill them. Nobody knew how utterly empty this creature is.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
sky -so you distinguish between p and s? what differentials do you use?
i think the n ex boss was probably a spath. and the n ex – well….not sure. she was incredibly duplicitous. i remember how angry she was with me once (after a break up) because she had ‘given up’ all her sex play mates to ‘be with me’ yah, sure she did.
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skylar says:
One,
I found this link
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-i.....iopath.htm
It’s not very indepth but it generally agrees with my own thoughts. Again, because it’s a continuum it’s hard to pinpoint. A sociopath might hold down a good job and be well liked, but he has to take it out on his wife by beating her.
I guess, in general, it’s the degree of control they have over their masks. I call it their attachment to their masks. P’s cannot live without it, they would rather commit suicide.
Edit:
I think that the troll from last night found a way to keep his mask on while at the same time admitting that he is a psychopath: by becoming a P with a heart of gold. It’s a new mask. Same as Sam Vaknin does. That’s why I used to think Vaknin was not a P but only an N, since he was bragging about it. But, really I’m not sure since I don’t know him at all. Same with the troll, I don’t know him, never met him, can’t really say. It’s just my initial thoughts on it.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hi sky – so i read the link. what it suggests to me is:
the sociopath has at least dual diagnosis – psychopathy moderated by (perhaps) ADHD, learning disabilities, plus anxiety disorders of some ilk, and environmental factors(for example access to schooling and social strata).
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Ox Drover says:
For what it is worth: If you look at the N characteristics and the P characteristics they sort of over lap in kind and intensity. So if you think of it along the line of say a “dog”—-there are BIG dogs, little dogs, aggressive dogs, passive dogs, dangerous dogs, not so dangerous dogs (but they can all bite) and so on, and there is a wide variety of dogs, but ALL are dogs of one sort or another—some are even wolves.
So if you put “modifiers” on to TOXIC people, like N and P, or Bi-polar, etc., it still amounts to TOXIC. So splitting hairs on which is worse, or is a particular person an N or a P doesn’t in the end make a lot of difference.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. IT IS PROBABLY A DUCK. So using the same analogy with toxic people—if it acts toxic and it does toxic mean things, it is PROBABLY TOXIC. GET AWAY FROM THEM!!!!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hi oxy – splitting hairs is part of knowledge…and puleaze no dog metaphors tonight!
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KatyDid says:
Skylar
It controlling the image they want to present. But once we id them as spath, no matter the image, the mask is off. Sam V was always spath to me. There was more farked up about him than merely N. I watched a series of videos with Sam which was all I needed to affirm my opinion, his mask was off and he was easily fooled into revealing himself. Kinda funny when they think themselves so brill and yet can’t maintain ALL time time.
Last nights S was not a a P with a heart of gold. He was just a common garden variety Mindfarker. It was Sat night and the best he had was LF???
What a loser.
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KatyDid says:
One/joy
it’s okay. quack is not a dog.
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skylar says:
Oxy, unfortunately these are shapeshifters so they don’t always look like a duck or quack like a duck. And we go into cog/dis. We question whether it’s just us being paranoid, seeing spaths behind every bush. Are we judging others too harshly? If the guy comes on to me, is it because he finds me attractive or is it because he doesn’t have good boundaries but is otherwise harmless or is he a spath?
For me, it’s particularly difficult because I have no experience. I’ve only literally been “out of the woods” for 2 years. All the time I spent in the cabin, I was virtually isolated and made very few contacts and no friends. In those 18 years most people would have had several relationship/ts. So I’m trying very hard to make up for lost time by studying and watching. The emotional center grows slowly from social contacts, I don’t have that luxury, I have to use my intellect to fathom the spaths and the labels are very useful for that.
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KatyDid says:
well things are getting interesting again but i must hit the hay. hope it’s there in the am. will look anyways. nightall
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dancingnancies says:
amen to what oxy said. they’re only man-made categorizations after all. same underlying pathology.
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skylar says:
there are some people who consider the psychopath to be genetically inclined while the sociopath is manmade.
IMO, it’s semantics. I think that both are the result of both environment and genetics. The difference does stem from the genetics though.
it seems to me that the spaths who are more predisposed to be strong willed become psychopaths. They have a stronger capacity to keep the mask on.
spaths who are not able to keep their will power intact become lesser spaths, or sociopaths (criminals).
This is my preliminary hypothesis. it may change. there is so much more to learn.
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Constantine says:
Hey Sky,
The problem is that it’s almost impossible to DISPROVE a genetic influence. Even if it looks entirely socialized, you can always say that, well, maybe it was in the genes after all!
That said, I’ve been reading a lot on the Enneagram lately. According to many researchers, the “Type 3″ personality has the most potential to become sociopathic or psychopathic, as it gradually disintegretes and goes from “healthy” to “unhealthy” levels. I really think there might be something to this. (My ex, incidentally, is most definitely a “three”) But even if this is true, I don’t think it explains away the genetic side so much as runs parallel to it.
In general, the Enneagram is only as good as the person explaining it. If you just look online, you get a lot of dumbed down pop psychology stuff. So don’t let that turn you off. There is, however, an excellent book called “Personality Types,” by Richard Riso, in case you or anyone else is interested.
I’m a “five,” by the way, and I think you are a five too, Sky! (Panther is also possibly a five, but I’m less sure about her.) So maybe it will be more interesting to another five, than to some of the twos and fours and nines and sevens here! (For the record, Fives are the “Investigators.”) At any rate, I find it to be an eerily accurate description of myself, and of many of my friends. If nothing else, it’s great way to understand how different types of people look at the world.
Myers Briggs is just as good in its way, and they are both worth looking into. But this thing about “threes” disintegrating into sociopathy, has recently caught my attention.
Of course, the idea is that all the types are equal when they are at their “healthy” levels. So it isn’t ever a matter of one type being superior to another.
Oh, and I told One Joy before that a good match for her would be a “seven.” That was a mistake on my part: Sevens can be quite nice, but I actually meant a two. (I think Oxy is probably a two, but I need to think about that some more!)
Anyhow, just some arbitrary “four in the morning” thoughts!
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Constantine says:
Oh, and I think One Joy’s N ex was probably an unhealthy three. Hmmmm….
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ErinBrock says:
I just found my first post to LF. It was 9-14-08.
I printed it out…..with my whole story! YIKES!!!!
I’ve gotta go to bed……
Night all……
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Constantine says:
EB,
Yes, check it out and see if you are perhaps an eight? It’s hard to say, but it would be interesting to know. Many people do have a “main” number and then a “wing” number: for example, I’m a “five with a four wing.” (Which means the five element is the dominant tendency, with the four as a sort of “minor” accompaniment.) And maybe for fun you can figure out what your spath is as well!
You are right about “sex therapists”: I don’t care what anyone says – I think they are ALL seriously creepy!
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ErinBrock says:
!
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Constantine says:
Nevertheless, don’t weird yourself out too much by looking backwards!
Good night to you too.
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ErinBrock says:
!
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skylar says:
Constantine,
Yep, I’m a 5 on that scale. How’d you know?
I looked at a couple of websites regarding the enneagram and thought it was interesting though I would have to reserve judgement about accuracy until I know more. The questionaire seemed a bit “fuzzy”. Like, I could answer too many of the questions in either way because, for example, while I do love my solitary pursuits, I also enjoy people’s company and working on a team. It just depends on the people and the subject.
It seemed to me that my ex-spath was an 8.
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superkid10 says:
I went to the sociopathworld website that skylar mentioned to me. I have found that the one thing that keeps me MOST GROUNDED is to be able to really put on the spath’s shoes. By going to this website, and reading what SPATH’S actually say and think (allowing for all the lies, of course), I am better grounded. It prevents cog/dis from kicking in, and prevents me from applying normal human thought and emotions to my spath. I see him for who he is and how he thinks. It is a great gift to me.
Anyway, there is a story on that website of a woman who lost her mind, allowing the spath to drive her nuts over years and years. He kept taunting her, wanting her, then refusing her, reeling her in, turning her away. It was torture. It was on purpose. She went insane. Reading that story made me realize how important it is for MYSELF and my OWN MENTAL HEALTH to go NO CONTACT.
So, today,
A) I killed off my personal email account. I emailed my friends with the new account. If somebody can’t find me for a while, so be it.
B) I talked to the IT department at work, they blocked my SPATHS home and cell phone number from our corporate number as well as our 800 number.
C) IT is going to change my WORK email address and make anything that goes to that email account just BOUNCE.
D) I blocked my SPATH from calling my home via AT&T’s privacy manager option.
E) I blocked my spath from calling my cell phone via VERIZON’s CALL BLOCKER feature ($4 per month, worth the price if you ask me).
F) The receptionist at work has his picture posted up, and a security buzzer was installed last week. He’s not allowed to come in.
There is no fucking way that dick can get through to me.
I won’t see his emails. I won’t get his messages.
I am free.
Superkid
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superkid10 says:
Erin – repost it!
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kim frederick says:
EB, Wow!!! Using an anesthic on you during sex….what kind of freak does that? Talk about self centered!!! His extended pleasure was more important than ou experiencing ANY pleasure.
Yeah, I feel like my experience with sex has been preatty strange, too. I am celebate now and have been for at least 4 years. Some Literature calls that sexual anorexia, implying that it’s a symptom, but I don’t care. Sex has caused me too much heartache and cog dis to even think about having it with someone else. I do, however have it with myself.
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skylar says:
Congrats Superkid!!
it’s like cutting out a tumor, isn’t it? You sometimes need additional doses of chemo and radiation to keep it from coming back, but it’s worth it. We want to stay healthy and sane.
EB, what a horrible way to experience sex as a child. I wonder how many other spaths do that since most of them are pedos.
Hi Kim, I read your post the other day with the questions but I didn’t answer because you were gone so quick.
It seems to me that you are going through a re-evaluation of your relationships because you have grown and learned so much recently. You now have more depth of perception and this is causing the fabric of what you once perceived as your history, to disintegrate. I’ve recently been reading about positive disintegration theory and the man who came up with it: Dabrowski
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K.....%85browski
Perhaps the previous relationshits have been on your mind because you are trying to re-integrate what you’ve learned.
Your ex husband sounds like a complete psychopath who should be excluded from your life forever. or at least until you can see him for the pure evil that he is and protect yourself from his psychological warfare.
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