“Will I ever be the same” (Part 2)
A syndrome called post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can affect victims of sociopaths. The trauma of losing love, friends, family, possessions and of enduring psychological/physical abuse is the cause of this disorder. To fight the symptoms of PTSD, it is helpful to understand the symptoms and how they relate to loss and trauma.
As I read through the current literature on PTSD, I quickly discovered that there is a fair amount of controversy regarding this disorder. We can actually learn about the disorder by listening to the arguments. The first question on which there is much disagreement is, “What trauma is severe enough to cause PTSD?” There were several editorials by experts disparaging the fact that everything from giving birth to a healthy baby to a boss yelling at an employee is now said to cause PTSD. Most experts are in favor of reserving this diagnosis for people who have suffered truly unusual life experiences, like kidnapping, rape, war, 911, etc.
The problem is that many people do experience severe stress reactions to difficult life circumstances. It remains to be determined what we should call these reactions.
Those of us healing from our relationship with a sociopath often vacillate between accepting the trauma and minimizing it. Thus, the argument about what kinds of trauma are severe enough to cause PTSD has a direct effect on us. The argument can leave us feeling weak, like we should be able to get over this. After all it wasn’t as bad as 911, Iraq or Katrina—or was it?
The second question is “what symptoms constitute PTSD?” The following table shows the most common symptoms seen in a group of 103 British men and women diagnosed by psychiatrists with PTSD (Current Medical Research Opinion, 2003):
| Symptom | Frequency (n=103) |
| Insomnia | 98 (95%) |
| Anxiety at reminder cues | 96 (93%) |
| Intrusive thoughts, images, sounds, sensations | 94 (91%) |
| Irritability | 93 (91%) |
| Poor concentration | 93 (91%) |
| Diminished interest in significant activities | 88 (85%) |
| Recurrent dreams of trauma | 86 (83%) |
| Avoidance of activities or places associated with the trauma | 85 (83%) |
| Foreshortening of expectations about the future | 80 (78%) |
| Detachment from others | 78 (76%) |
| Avoidance of thinking or conversing about the trauma | 75 (73%) |
| Poor appetite | 69 (67%) |
| Hypervigilance | 55 (53%) |
| Startle reactions | 46 (45%) |
| Acting or feeling as if the event was recurring | 37 (31%) |
| Inability to recall parts of trauma (amnesia) | 19 (18%) |
I put up this table because I thought that a number of you would also endorse these symptoms. Notice that “acting or feeling as if the event was recurring” was really not that common. But similar symptoms, like “Intrusive thoughts, images sounds and sensations,” were very common. Amnesia was also uncommon. Startle reactions were only seen in half of the subjects.
A feeling of a foreshortened future is a particularly debilitating symptom because it impairs a person’s ability to plan for the future and leads to a sense of hopelessness. I will expand on this further, but I strongly believe this feeling of a foreshortened future has to do less with our thoughts about our past, and more with our thoughts about our present.
As I look at this list of symptoms, I am struck by the fact that many, many of those writing into Lovefraud complain of these symptoms, particularly nightmares. There is something special about having had emotional involvement with an aggressor that seems to produce nightmares. Since so many have all of the most common symptoms, I think it has to be that the trauma of life with a sociopath is severe enough to cause this disorder in many people.
Here’s where defining exactly what trauma is gets sticky. Rachael Yehuda, Ph.D., said in a recent article published on MedScape, “One of the things that biology has taught us is that PTSD represents a type of a response to trauma, but not the only type of response. It is a response that seems to be about the failure to consolidate a memory in such a way as to be able to be recalled without distress.” Well, this is precisely the definition that is too broad. I personally have a lot of memories that I experience or re-experience with distress. Yet these memories are not accompanied by the list of symptoms in the table above.
For me what made the experience traumatic was the truly life course-changing nature of the trauma. The answer to the question, “Will I ever be the same?” for me defines trauma significant enough to cause PTSD. The trauma that causes this disorder redefines us in a way that is different from other emotionally significant experiences. This trauma strikes at the core of our identity.
The final controversy surrounds the treatment of PTSD. Interestingly, there is no question that medications (SSRIs, particularly Zoloft) are very helpful. The problem is though that when a person goes to a physician and receives a medication, he/she is by definition “sick.” Assumption of a “sick role” or “victim identity” is one of the many factors that slow recovery from PTSD.
Many therapists are of the belief that “debriefing” or retelling the story is necessary for recovery. One group of researchers reviewed the studies on debriefing and concluded that there is no scientific evidence that it prevents PTSD. Instead, the evidence points to post-trauma factors like social support and “additional life stress” being most important.
How can we put this all together? Considering last week’s post, those who experience trauma serious enough to have stress hormone overdose as manifested by dissociation, are likely to also develop PTSD. An examination of the symptoms of PTSD reveals that at the core of the disorder is the fact that the person really doesn’t believe in his/her heart that the trauma has ended. PTSD is about ONGOING, not past, trauma. For those of us whose lives were assaulted by a sociopath, there is ongoing stress. The stress is the social isolation, financial ruin, and threatened further losses long after the relationship has ended. Those who recover from this without PTSD work hard to put the trauma behind them in every way.
Putting the trauma behind you does not mean you can’t take medication to help with the process. It does mean facing those bills, former friends, and other personal issues you want to avoid. Remember AVOIDANCE STRENGTHENS FEAR.
Above all, stop the ongoing trauma by ending contact with the sociopath. Do not assume a sick role, instead, work to stay healthy. Fight to be the person you want to be. Don’t allow this single experience to define you. Make living for today the place you love to be. As Louise Gallagher says in her recent post, “This is, in many ways, the greatest challenge of recovery – to accept the past is simply the route I took to get to where I am today, a place I love to be. The past cannot be changed. It cannot be altered. It cannot be made ‘better.’ It can only be accepted so that it, and I, may rest in peace with what was, eager to accept what is true in my life today.”
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
421dmb2 says:
I think people who have children with sociopaths are in a tough situation because they have experienced a lot of trauma having been in a relationship with that person, but they continue to experience trauma ongoingly because they can not end contact. I have four children with my ex. I do my best to limit my communication with him. I know it is not good to use the children to communicate, but we do. I only communicate in writing via US mail. I do not talk to him in person, by phone or email. His written communication to me is much more civil now that he knows it can be used in court, but he continues to be hateful and angry toward me on a daily basis through the children. I have no doubt that this will continue until all my children move out of my house…and even then, I will probably still hear comments and lies thrown my way. I am currently using medication to help me deal with the stress of all this. I went to counseling for two years prior to leaving my husband, and then six years after that. After eight years, I came to realize that my ex did different versions of the same bad behavior over and over and over. I felt I was hearing the same advice over and over. I stopped going partly because I am so busy, but here it is 4:03 am and instead of sleeping, I am typing on this blog.
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Sunday, 4 March 2007 @ 4:06am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
In considering the involvement of a sociopath in the lives of children the court needs to formally recognize this issue you so eloquintly bring to light. The sociopath can inflict ongoing stress on the more healthy parent. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR THE CHILDREN. The healthy parent deserves all of our love and support. God bless you 421dmb2 for your dedication to your four children!
I hope we will soon work together to build a children’s rights organization.
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Sunday, 4 March 2007 @ 11:17am
421dmb2 says:
I think the courts will only give help to the children and spouses of sociopaths that act criminally. Families of sociopaths that do not break the law will be left to do the best they can to deal with these people. They will probably even receive less support because the sociopath will lie and do what he needs to do to get what he/she wants. They will totally confuse and mislead the court. The best way to probably help these families is through educating family counselors, police and lawyers about sociopaths so that these support people recognize the acts of a sociopath and give appropriate advice.
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Monday, 5 March 2007 @ 7:48pm
EyeoftheStorm says:
I have not visited this site in a few weeks, so I have to catch up with Dr. Leedom’s columns and the posted comments.
I am wondering why professionals call PTSD a “disorder” when it seems like a perfectly understandable reaction to people and situations that overload someone’s capacity to manage life! Why don’t they just call it PTS? I think some professionals do a disservice to clients/patients by insinuating through labels and medication that life’s difficulties are illnesses and healing is about achieving a theoretical norm that exists only in textbooks. “Life is hard.” If an individual remains feeling “traumatized”, it implies something is “wrong” with them.
Do the different personality types play a role in how people handle and recover from trauma? I’m thinking of the Myers-Briggs classifications. Would a “feeler” have a harder time than a “thinker” and are professionals trained to consider this?
People can have the rug pulled out by a traumatic situation, whether it is an unexpected event or an ongoing relationship. I have noticed my deepest struggles surface when I feel overwhelmed and powerless. I deal with it by asking myself “what action can I take about this”. Then I do something, anything, to set things in motion, even if it is something not seemingly related to the overwhelming situation. I tell myself that feeling powerless is an illusion even though the feelings are real.
My experience is that finding supportive people is the hardest part of all. Some of that has to do with the art of listening to another.
I appreciate Dr. Leedom’s columns very much. I read all I can about this subject and narcissism. I am learning a lot!
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Thursday, 8 March 2007 @ 9:04am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
There are four criteria, any one of the four qualifies a syndrome as a “disorder.”
1) Impairment of function
2) Personal distress
3) Dangerousness
4) Socially inappropriate behavior
There are many practical implications to “disorder.” The most important of which is insurance coverage!
Resilient people are by nature optimistic and take responsibility for their lives. Resiliency though does not imply immunity!
Thank you for encouraging me.
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Thursday, 8 March 2007 @ 10:42am
southernman429 says:
I for one have experienced many of the symptoms that you have listed.
Insomnia…. I cannot begin to tell you how many nights I have laid in my bed and cried thinking about the good and the bad of that relationship, or have woke in the middle of the night to find myself unable to go back to sleep… thinking, hurting, missing, agonizing…..
Anxiety….. Everyday….especially when I find myself in places that her and I frequented, or hearing music that we listened to, or seeing something on TV that we had watched.
Irritability… I’m sure of it, lacK of sleep, poor self image, daily reminders of her.
Diminished interest in significant activities ….. Yes… It’s like I lost my spark.. the things I used to enjoy, now seem laborious… The thought is..”Why bother”
Recurrent dreams of trauma…This is the worst. When my wife did four years ago, I had maybe 4 dreams about her .. all in the first year. Since my crazy left a year ago, I have had perhaps 12 dreams.. all horrible and frightening. Mostly it involves her being cruel towards me, but there have been some bad ones where she is either trying to strangle me, or that I have killed her. When I had those dreams early on, I was on prozaic. I quickly weaned myself off of that and those violent dreams stopped.
Avoidance of activities or places associated with the trauma… Yes, I avoid restaurants or places where we used to frequent. I find myself very angry about that, because even though her life moved on, I cannot, or the pain of those memories cause so much anxiety, that it’s not worth it to me to try to do the things that I once enjoyed doing with her.
Foreshortening of expectations about the future….. Yes, and I’m ashamed of this.. I am a Christian, and live my life following Him and trying to live according to his plan, but I fight daily with the feeling of diminished hope for my future… I wonder if I will ever be totally “normal” again and will I ever feel peace and joy. When we are in rebellion, when we are not on the path God wants us to be on, that is when we miss the joy, the peace, and the abundance this life can
offer. That is when we are missing the blessings of God in our life. So, I feel like I am rebelling against my Heavenly Father, since I cannot let go of my troubled past, and look to the future that He has in store for me. My past has broken me so deeply, that I do not feel worthy, and thus the future looks grim.. I pray about this everyday, and find comfort at times, but it is always short lived. again… I loath this aspect, because it once again give her control and power.. even now .. a year since her abandonment of me and my son.
Detachment from others…. Yes, there are times( when I am in a bad place) when I do not want to see my friends or family… They are concerned for me, but they simply do not understand. The pit that I dwell in seems to them a place that I prefer… I have alienated myself from some because they are tired of hearing about my trauma, or if it is obvious that I am sad and or depressed. One can look into my eyes and see where my heart lies. This whole thing.. the year long relationship, the abandonment, the year since of mental anguish, the realization that she is a sociopath, the regurgitation of the relationship with the knowledge that she is what she is… all of it is surreal, and I am shocked that this has become what it has become… a living entity.. a chasm that has eaten away at my soul, and I feel so very powerless to stop it… funny thing.. a week ago, I felt much better, a couple of days ago, I plummeted with no real reason… Two steps forward, two steps back… Does anyone else feel this? Does it make sense that a year long relationship with a sociopath takes over a year to get over? Could it be that with that trauma and the fact that I lost my wife only four years ago to death, make this understandable? I thought I was doing better, but I have found myself nearly in tears most everyday like in the begining a year ago.
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Friday, 9 March 2007 @ 1:27pm
LAMan says:
Hey Southernman,
My relationship with the Psycho was about 7 months long. I’ve been free of him for six months now with no contact at all. I am much better, but I do think about him every day. He pops into my mind for whatever reason and I snuff him out as quickly as possible.
I no longer miss him. I guess I miss how I felt inside. I am also AMAZED that this happened to me. It’s not the same as having had a love affair and breaking up with a normal person. I am amazed at the personality disorder this person had. Everyone on this site knows what I mean. It seems impossible to believe these people exist. No one understands but those who have been intimate with a Psycho.
Even though I don’t blame myself, and I don’t want anything to do with this person ever again, I still can’t believe the experience happened.
Ultimately, I can’t believe that a person can treat a lover the way this Psycho did. It’s hard for me to believe that someone is capable of that kind of malicious beneath the radar behavior.
They are reprehensible people. Anger helps me stay strong. THEY DO NOT CARE about us and the more and the longer we miss them the bigger saps we are (to them).
This fact keeps me angry and keeps me from caring about this person ever again.
Look forward. Replace their memory with the vision of someone else who is current in your life or of friends and family. Be proud of your recovery and of yourself.
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Saturday, 10 March 2007 @ 2:01pm
EyeoftheStorm says:
Dr. Lianne,
Thank you for explaining the criteria of a disorder. I see what you are saying about the practical implications. I didn’t think about that!
I agree about not having immunity from trauma.
I went through Katrina. My home was standing after the storm, yet I am still restoring my property even after all these months. I personally know at least two dozen people who lost everything. They didn’t even have a pair of socks left after it was over. Everyone is worn out and my friends all look at least 15 years older. I am amazed at their courage and resiliency. Riding along the Mississippi Gulf Coast after the storm, or through the neighborhoods of New Orleans was, and still is, gut wrenching.
What relates to your columns about sociopaths, has been dealing with dishonest contractors and insurance companies. Many of us have spent a lot of time on “the contractor from hell” web site, when we weren’t looking for a good attorney!
Taking care of yourself following a trauma is so important. I also started watching the Food Channel after we had t.v. restored (which was months!)! Interesting that we both did that! I became interested in serious cooking too. I thought perhaps the reason might be that it is creative and it is also cheerful. Like all creative activities, you take something and make something else out of it. It opens possibility. I think that activates being creative in other area of our lives which is empowering. When your world comes crashing down around you, staying in touch with some glimmer of hope and possibility becomes so important. Creativity can be an exercise in faith in ourselves when we are at our lowest.
I don’t think people can compare traumas, or feel that some are less severe and they should be over it. How someone deals with it is so individual and depends on so many variables. A man down the road attempted suicide after Katrina. Another elderly lady in New Orleans set up a washtub in her yard, picked through the rubble daily, and washed the muck off every cherished thing she found. Then one day she gathered her treasures and left. I know people who cannot get over leaving pets at home when they evacuated before the storm, and the pets died. They still cry every time they talk about it. Trauma can take many forms and we cannot judge the intensity of someone’s experience or loss.
Though my current trauma took the form of Katrina and Katrina contractors, I understand about the personal relationship trauma that goes with becoming involved with a sociopath. I’ve been through that too!
To answer the question “will I ever be the same”. My answer is ” NO!”, I don’t think I will ever be the same. I have learned too much. My challenge is struggling not to get physically run down. I am taking a supplement for adrenal fatigue. It helps.
Please keep teaching us, Dr. Liane.
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Monday, 12 March 2007 @ 6:11pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Just curious are you taking DHEA? There is some indication it might be helpful.
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Monday, 12 March 2007 @ 8:55pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Southernman,
Sorry, I didn’t see your post until now. Given your responsibilities as a father, you can’t afford to allow yourself to suffer like this hoping that things will get better. With each day that boy gets older. He deserves some great times with his dad. Given what you wrote there, please see a professional about whether or not medical treatment would help you get well faster.
Our prayers are with you two!
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Monday, 12 March 2007 @ 9:08pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Also just because Prozac wasn’t right for you doesn’t mean that another SSRI or the like won’t be helpful. Many people who can’t tolerate one do well with another. Zoloft is the only one approved by the FDA for the treatment of PTSD.
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Monday, 12 March 2007 @ 9:13pm
arlenejohnson57 says:
To Southernman429: I know exactly how you feel because so many of things you are saying are so real and how I feel. The longer you have been married is the worse I believe because you have so memories. I know what it is like to try to get better and the feeling that it will never get better. The only thing I can say it is not your fault and that it is trauma. Validation of trauma I though would make it better. It has not for me since he took my children and financially ruined me. I pray daily for a future. But I feel completely dead. I have tried new things but found I was only distracti ng myself from the trauma which never goes away. Medication did not help and therapy validated but I seem to not move forward. I thi nk because it was so long and so many dreams to share with my children whom I do not see nor share their lives with and watching now how he destroys their lives. The past is the past but they are also are building blocks for the future. So you can’t forget if you are human and that feeling of love that you shared is wiped out. To be normal again no I think the trauma that I suffer from will not go away. Maybe if I had been younger and formed a new family it may have been differant for me. This is differant than a death because the people we love are still alive and yet you have really know one to share the pain of the recovery and friends and families are tired of it. Maybe if I found someone who was very understanding and could share that pain in an intimate way and grow new in a relationship it would lessen. Because sociopaths destroy us in our intimacy and rob us of our innocense then walk away and the standard line to them is “just move on”. Well that doesn’t work if you are truly human in our cases because we are dealing with a sociopath.
I sympathize with you. Please don’t feel that you are not living the life that God wants you to because I think He understands. Sometimes the way to God is in our suffering and not the peace we think we should have. I don’t know..but maybe if I get to heaven I will find out. Hang in there.
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Tuesday, 27 March 2007 @ 7:53pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Arlene-
Very beautifully put. You have many gifts and understanding. God also isn’t finished with you yet.
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Wednesday, 28 March 2007 @ 3:41pm
EyeoftheStorm says:
Dr. Liane,
My contractors have been here everyday for the last two weeks and probably have at least another week of work. I am so tired when they leave in the evening I cannot think!
In answer to your question……. An M.D. prescribed DHEA after testing (unconjugated DHEA blood test). I cannot take it, however, because it runs up my blood pressure. I am in my early sixties. Now I am taking a nutritional formula with no animal cortex. I does seem to help. I have a vegetable juicer and I always feel better when I juice.
My heart goes out to everyone on this forum in the midst of these painful and difficult struggles. Taking care of oneself through these dark times is critical to recovery. It is hard when we lack support from family an friends and cannot muster much comfort from within either. We do have to find the strength to be our own best friend sometimes.
I know from my own life experience that finding and building strength in one area of our being can spill over into other aspects of our lives. One positive thing can lead to another even though that progress may be slow. Feeling well physically seems to be so important for me. It helps me cope better.
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Thursday, 29 March 2007 @ 6:05am
Mrose says:
I have just gotten discarded from a five year relationship with one of these men….it has been horrific. I am sure I am suffering from PTSD and Depression. I just cannot think HOW I could be the same again. This man is the coldest person I could ever imagine and at the end I was made aware of things I did not know…the callousness is astounding. I’m not even sure anymore that I want to go on like this.
I feel like I’ve been run over by a truck and am still laying in the road!
I lost my financial stability, my home, my mental, emotional and physcial health I have at least TWO surgeries to face this month coming and maybe three. AND my DS is graduating high school with ALL my family coming for that. I just don’t think I can COPE with all this. My home is a disaster area when I used to keep it especially welcoming and “homey” now I”m ashamed to have my DS have company here. I don’t have company because the one thing I didn’t list that he stole was all my friends! AND he went on a marvellous smear campaign….no one speaks to ME now as if I did something. I can’t even get an email response.
This is by far the MOST devastating experience I have ever had with anyone…and that is saying something.
I DID NOT have a “history” of this type of relationship and in fact was married to a decent man for 18 years before this. We just grew apart over time and while that was sad we remained friends….NOTHING Like this! NOTHING could be like this and I had NO IDEA that there were people out there such as this man is.
I feel as if he stole my life and waltzed off with the life I used to have!!
I just cannot figure out my way out of this dark place I am in.
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Saturday, 31 March 2007 @ 8:32am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Gear MRose,
There are many of us that have had these same thoughts. In the beginning, I got by by keeping busy and by doing one good deed for myself and someone else every day.
Try to enjoy the graduation. Don’t let him win.
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Saturday, 31 March 2007 @ 8:28pm
Carolyn A Silvers says:
I am 61 and 20 years away from a long imprisoned marriage to Mr Mean. (20 years)I have a good life, successful career, good church but the dreams and memories still haunt me. Is it unusual for PtSD to last 20 years? I take cymbalta and before that celexia. I have tried to weene off and control moods with positive thinking and prayer but within a week I fall into depression. He is dead and it isnt fair that these annoying experiences haunt me. I really don’t dwell on them. I stay so busy I nerly drop with exhaustion sometimes.
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Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 10:20pm
justabouthealed says:
I’m 58 and still have PTSD that can be triggered relating back to an attempted rape when I was 20. If a setting resembles that one, I’m right back in the moment, quite against my will, with my heart pounding, etc. It doesn’t happen very often so I just shrug my shoulders and get on with life. I think there are new eye movement treatments EMRD??? I’m forgetting the initials! But anyway, the treatments help with old traumas that you recall while your eyes follow certain movements. Done with a therapist.
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Thursday, 25 December 2008 @ 11:09pm
alohatraveler says:
Southerman,
If you are out there… check our your comments oh so long ago. It sounds like you are doing better based on your recent comments.
Anyway, once again, I related a lot to your thoughts.
I always feel silly saying that I have symptoms of PTSD.. like it sounds like drama..but I do have a physical reasction that always follows a distressing thought. I have a friend that wants to help me with this using something called Emotional Freedom Technique. I will give it a shot and see what happens.
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Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 2:48am
alohatraveler says:
Dear Carolyn,
My Dad has had some symptoms related to PTSD and his Doctor told him it was related to being a Vietnam Vet. Apparently many vets have had this turn up late in life. So, I think it is quite possible to have PTSD last quite a long time until one feels totally resolved about what happened.
That’s my uneduacted guess. Let’s see what the Dr. says.
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Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 2:52am
Stargazer says:
Mrose and Carolyn,
Being involved with a sociopath can leave you completely traumatized and devastated. I feel it is important to know what kind of person you were dealing with and know that it is not your fault. Realize that you were exploited and this is NOT NORMAL. It sounds trite, but just knowing the truth will help you in your healing.
It was a very short relationship with a P that brought me to this site. However, I was involved with an emotionally unavailable man for 3 years who probably had some P tendencies as well. The way I was discarded for another woman while we were living together also left me feeling like I’d been hit by a mack truck. When I finally got a letter of “apology” from him, he mentioned that the woman he left me for played him, and it was the first time he had ever loved a woman. Can you imagine how that made me feel? It was as if he backed up the truck and ran me over again. That relationship ended 7 years ago, and it is not until now that I am learning I am not to blame for what happened in that relationship–that he is personality disordered. For years, I wondered what was wrong with me. Now I know that whoever he ends up with will go through the same hell I went through. With the latest sociopath, who I believe is a true sociopath, I was lucky enough to figure out something was very wrong after 2-1/2 months and get out. This happened last July, and I still have some PTSD symptoms from that as well. I am amazed at the extent of damage these types can do to normal, empathic people.
20 years is a long time to spend in the company of such an evil person. So is 5 years for that matter. These years and memories become a part of your history, thoughts, and memories. I know there are special techniques for dealing with all of these painful memories–EMDR, NLP, and other forms of trauma work. I have not tried very much of it, but it might be worth looking into if the PTSD symptoms are persistent.
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Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:07am
Indigoblue says:
They weasle in upside down , while they are learning your needs , They hold the Mirror perfectly still so you only see What you want to see! There is no reward for their energy and cunning , just a fleeting pridefull delite when they twist the Knife ! You and me Are as important as Butts ! But we take it Personally because we Bond to someone we think we love ! I still Love Him but there is no value in love for Him! LOVE JJ
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Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:32am
Stargazer says:
It’s true, Indi. I was reading a chapter in “How to Spot a Dangerous Man”. I got to the chapter on emotional predators, and my jaw dropped. This chapter could have been written about me and my S. They have a psychic sense for picking women from abusive backgrounds, who grew up without a father, or who have unmet emotional needs. How they know this is beyond me. Mine targeted me from a website about reptiles (as many people here know). At the time, I was probably the most popular person on the site and made many friends there. He noticed this right away and must have decided that the legendary Stargazer would be a good conquest. However, I don’t know how he figured out about my background because I rarely talk about it there. I don’t come off as lonely or needy; I really just goof around over there and help others with their snake health problems. And yet he knew. Their knack for seeking out this type of victim is uncanny.
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Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 4:52am
alohatraveler says:
Stargazer,
I don’t know that they can sense us as good victims from a picture or totally unrelated profile such as a Snake site but I think once we start to engage, we get hooked quickly. There are women that told Bad Man to F-Off right from the get go. There are women who said they sensed something was off very early.. then there was me that ignored all the bad feelings and red flags because he used his magic words.. the words I wanted to hear. After that, I would tolerate nearly anything. Sad to admitt but I have to be truthful with myself. His behavior was intolerable very early on in the relationship.
These days, I love to watch women who stand up for themselves and tell people where to go when it’s necessary. I sail and there is a fun lady that doesn’t take any crap from the guys. Sometimes, when I hear her put a guy in his place, I think to myself… why didn’t I think about that? I watch and I learn.
the biggest thing I have learned from the Bad Man is… well, I think I will write about that later.
)
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Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 6:11pm
Matt says:
Alohatraveler:
“…then there was me that ignored all the bad feelings and red flags because he used his magic words.. the words I wanted to hear. After that, I would tolerate nearly anything. Sad to admit but I have to be truthful with myself. His behavior was intolerable very early on in the relationship.”
You summed up relationship with S perfectly. I remember relatively early on in our relationship he said “This is the first relationship I’ve been in where there’s been communication.” Those were the magic words for me.
Of course, that was the last time we communicated about anything. And as you read in my article, S’s behavior to me was intolerable very early on in our relationship.
I’m still learning to stand up for myself and draw my lines in the sand. Deconditioning myself from being a people pleaser and reconditioning myself to assign value to myself are ongoing processes.
Look forward to reading what the biggest thing you learned from the Bad Man.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 9:24pm
Stargazer says:
Hey guys,
My S’s behaviors made me a little uncomfortable at the beginning, but I didn’t regard them as red flags. I thought maybe he was just lonely, coming on to me so strong. As soon as I told him I was only interested in friendship, he apologized and backed off and behaved only as a friend. He didn’t try to hug me or anything and didn’t make any inappropriate comments. The transformation was amazing. He just said he enjoyed spending time around me, and I enjoyed his company too. He would send me an email after we’d spend time together telling me how much he enjoyed the time and that I am a “wonderful, intelligent, and yes, beautiful” person. I didn’t see that as a problem. I thought for once I’d found a really sweet guy that I wouldn’t go through an act of Congress to get his attention. It was a few weeks later when all the games started. But I didn’t understand them as games till the final discard. That’s when it all became clear what had happened.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 26 December 2008 @ 9:37pm
Carolyn A Silvers says:
For me, the confusion was partly having been overprotected. I had a wonderful father and awsome big brothers who treated women respectfully and at worse perhaps overprotected them, but I honestly had no clue anyone could be so decietful and mean spirited. It was the late “60s” when little info was out there and the general attitude was that “people don’t air dirty laundry.”
My X was a pathalogical lier and did everything he could to get me back for finally leaving him. First, he tried to turn our children against me with lies, then he told them they were not really his legitimate kids, I was a cheat, etc. Then when nothing worked he turned hostile toward to them to hurt me.
This is the clencher; My adult children were planning a wopper of a birthday party for my 60th, and he died the day before the birthday and party. They were notified that they needed to go to Reno to hear the will. Party was canciled and they attended his funeral and attended the meeting, only to learn that he had left all his life innsurance to his latest mail-order wife #6 and left his blood children unremembered. I sware, he picked that day to die on purpose LOL
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 4:56pm
Wini says:
Caroln A Silvers: I had a father who loved his wife (my mom) and his children unconditionally.
I am so grateful to be born into his family.
Peace … and remember these great memories of your Dad … for they are the true men that are worth everything in the world … not the shameful selfishness of our EXs.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 December 2008 @ 6:34pm
Stargazer says:
Carolyn, is that not the ultimate selfish act! He made people miserable when he was alive and even in his death too. They are just such horrible people.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 12:43am
OxDrover says:
Dear Carolyn,
They use ANY way they can to hurt those people that refuse to be their victims—a lack of a bequest is one of those ways, it seems to be the last thrust. My P-bio-father was quite wealthy, but He hated me so badly that Iknew he would not leave me a dime, unless it was designated as to be used to “buy enough rope to hang herself” so I wasn’t expecting any thing, and had not seen him im 40+ years. However, I was contacted, sent a copy of the will, and estate etc. and out of his four children, three of us were not even mentioned by name, but were referred to as “my other children” and all was left to his youngest son (my half brother) and then he said “and they know why.”
I wasn’t in the least disappointed that he left me nothing, and in fact, reliazed that if he had left me $10 million I would NOT HAVE WANTED IT. That seems strange really, even to me, because for years I had visualized hiring an attorney and challening the will that I knew would have left me nothing (sort of like the young Anna Nichole Smith challenged her 90 yr old husband’s will and ended up getting several millions of dollars). But I also realized that I had no desire for that either. He was not important to me any more, and neither was the money. Not because I am rich and couldn’t use a few million, but because I DON’T WANT ANYTHING (even money) CONNECTED TO HIM.
I realized something about myself in the process too, and that I had finally seen that everything about him was “fake” and was “evil” and that even included his money. If he had left me money (fat chance!) I would have donated it to some cause that he would have hated, and not spent a dime on myself. LIke shelters for abused women in his home town. LOL
Your X leaving his money to his “mail order bride” (or him having a mail order bride) is typical, and when my father’s 6th or 7th wife whom he moved into his home as an “employee” when she was 15, and he was still married to the previous wife, got a divorce several years later and took him for quite a few millions, I was actually glad for her because (1) SHE EARNED EVERY DIME OF IT and (2) SHE DESERVED IT. All of his wives previous to that got out with their LIVES and not much else and that included my mother.
I don’t believe that just because someone sired or gave birth to me I am “entitled” to a bequest in their will or any of their property. To me, a bequest is a “gift,” not an “entitlement.” I think though, from the way that you wrote the above, that your children thought that they were going to get something from him, but that is one of the things “they” do—rip the rug out from under your expectations and usually at THE MOST INCONVENIENT TIME.
I do hope that your children are not bitter about him and/or who got his money. I would “guarentee” that poor woman EARNED every dime of whatever she got. She too was a victim, and if she was a “mail order bride” from some foreign country, she probably was DESPERATE to get out of there for anywhere or any one.
Many of these “mail order brides” (I have known a few) get “picked” by psychopaths precisely, I think, BECAUSE they have no or few other options and the Ps can have TOTAL CONTROL over them. They are essentially legal SLAVES who are so “hungry” that they will sell themselves into “bondage” in exchange for a place to live. Having spent considerable time in third-world countries and known the living conditions there, I have a great deal of empathy for some of these women.
God bless you and your children, at least the P is GONE physically, and I hope you and your children can heal emotionally from having had this EVIL man in your lives. Peace.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 December 2008 @ 1:00pm
pb says:
PTSD? It’s been 15 months since I was assaulted, eight months since the court date, seven months since he and I weren’t in an official relationship (I’d realized he’d been cheating), and two weeks since I last spent the night with him, my favorite lunatic.
I don’t sleep normally anymore.
I still burst into tears at having to listen to raised voices – anyone, anywhere!
I’ve lost interest in my usual activities.
I’ve lost 18 lbs in the last two months – 33 since I left him.
I tried to return to work a couple of weeks ago and kept crying.
I’m a bit jumpy
I’ve cried for most of the 15 months since the assault (until I got here).
I don’t or didn’t remember parts of that night
But the last two weeks here have done wonders for me.
I knew I wasn’t crazy.
I knew it wasn’t something I did or didn’t do…
But, I didn’t know what HAD happened.
I’m off the anti-depressants since I’ve come here.
I’m eating, perhaps a bit too much even.
I don’t know about my career, he may have gotten that, but so what.
I even slept in my bed twice in the last week – for the first time in months.
I feel better knowing, and being able to shine a light on the monster under the bed makes it much easier to understand.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 12:13am
OxDrover says:
Dear Pb,
Welcome back to sanity! The healing road is rough, uphill, and filled with pot holes, but the journey does get easier as you go along. I strongly suggest that you get some therapy and possibly some medication for the PTSD. I had severe PTSD with almost all of the above mentioned symptoms to the point I was totally non functional, but with medications and therapy I have come a lonnnnng way since then.
The thing I found MOST helpful was “rapid eye movement therapy” from a licensed psychlogist and it is specifically for some of the PTSD symptoms. It isn’t as readily available as BCT or “talk therapy” but I find that it is much more effective and it doesn’t go on forever either. In only a few months I improved markedly with once a week therapy for 50 minutes.
I’m still not “perfect” but my life is functional again. I have a LIFE and I have some joy and peace in my life now that weren’t there before the rapid eye movement therapy. Google it and see what you think. For me it did help (I am a retired registered family nurse practitioner (with considerable mental health experience as well)
I’m glad you are here, this blog is one of the, if not THE BEST places on the internet with more good solid information and great support from the bloggers here.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 3:13am
pb says:
You know, I’ve always said I don’t mind shoveling s**t – as long as it’s fresh s**t and I have a good shovel.
I guess I should be careful what I wish for, eh?
I am most certainly not gonna stand here endlessly digging the same pile over and over with a teaspoon.
I’m thankful that it was a quick trip to hell and back – as horrible as it was.
And seriously, I don’t know what would have become of me had I not found this site. I can’t stand to not understand. I have, at the very core of my being, a very strong sense of what is right and wrong, of justice. And, it was killing me to not understand what the hell changed so fast. I knew that whatever happened was plain old wrong and not fair.
I obsessed forever, re-read my journals, checked dates with his cell bills (a significant number of our bad nights were preceded by phone calls to a couple of women. The man would cry on their shoulders and come home to take it out on me)…It was funny to note that I had called him “psycho” a number of times – but only because he kept calling his ex and I psychos’. I was joking initially.
All the signs were there. I just didn’t recognize them for what they were.
Red Flags – things that just didn’t feel right, right away:
Self-importance/Insecurity – he used his job as validation, wears supplier t-shirts/jackets while not at work so that folks will know what he does for a living. He’d brag about how much money he made, or how much money he’d spent on his ex-wife and daughter. He loaned folks money all over the place, or donate his services to his church (but he never attended). He’d give you the shirt off his back. Lack of confidence? We can deal with that, right?
Disrespectful – Publicly trashing his ex-wife, calling her “psycho” in front of folks at work or play (he was smearing his wife). I thought the poor guy just needed to vent for a while and excused it.
A Tendency to Snap at work/Perfectionist – Both are considered good characteristics in his job.
His house was too clean – need I say more? I was delighted to see a fellow as clean as I – NEVER AGAIN!
No sense of the appropriate or boundaries – socially, sexually, or financially. He was a devilish child in some ways and I admit it was attractive, but not for long.
Rush to involvement – very confusing. I thought he was crazy about me.
He was always busy – If he had to be still, he had to be drinking, having sex, or be asleep. His house was very clean.
Lavish attention, purchases, and gifts – food, clothing for his daughter, activities and trips, a set of kitchen cabinets for my rental suite, a bathroom, or mortgage payments for someone else.
Impulsive/need for instant gratification – “I want what I want and I want it now” mentality, or his daughter or I would say we like something, and he would want to go buy it.
Overindulgence of his daughter – to confuse her as to what love is, secure her loyalty, to control her, and to appear a doting father to everyone else.
Lack of real friends – No one ever visited. Who wants to visit a nasty drunk, especially in his own home where he’s likely to behave even worse than he behaves in public.
He spoke in double negatives – I know it sounds petty, but it bothered me when he said things like, “I don’t got no”, “I seen…”, or “I don’t want to do that no more”. I thought I was being judgmental and chided myself, but really, it indicated a lack of ability and respect for communication.
Inexcusable Behavior:
Showing up drunk on our first date – I accepted his excuse of being nervous because he hadn’t asked a woman out “in over 20 years”
Drinking while driving – I didn’t know how to approach it and I didn’t want to argue, but it made me uncomfortable.
Humiliating me in public or in front of the few visitors we had – I stopped dating him twice over this. He cried, begged, and said he was testing me.
Insane jealousy
“Testing” me with his drinking
Trashing his ex-wife in front of, and to, his daughter – he has no respect for a childs right to be a child and to love both parents. It’s about what he wants or needs, not his daughter.
Involving his daughter in our arguments – repeatedly. He was telling me to get out one night because I dared to mention that I had let him vent about his ex-wife for months…Well, as soon as I said her name he began yelling for me to get out. The phone rang and it was my “best friends” step-daughter asking to speak to S’s daughter.
He yelled into the phone “She can’t come to the phone because she’s crying because [I] won’t leave.”
I couldn’t believe he would involve two children in his rant. His daughter was already in tears. I had tried to not get into it with him, but he wouldn’t stop. And, then he says that to an eight year old girl. I realize now it was the early stages of his smear campaign. She likely repeated that to my best friend after hanging up the phone.
Spying on me – he would go home and turn off the motion sensor lights and spy on me when we were visiting at the neighbours. He would call me constantly while at work.
Reading my journals – he said it was an accident that he opened two folders with my name on them.
The drunken black-outs
Harassing me for months – I was so stressed out from having to watch my words, explain myself or why I did things the way I did – it was awful. I was scared to speak half the time.
Running me out of our home, for months, because it was his house; he’d tell me to go spend the night somewhere else if I said something he didn’t like.
Assaulting me – He tells everyone that I attacked him and that he only admitted guilt in court because he “had to” (assuming he tells folks he admitted guilt at all. I’m sure he doesn’t tell folks he’s on probation).
Things I simply wasn’t aware of:
Isolating Me – He asked me to stop working, move in, and fired his nanny and cleaner. He said I “shouldn’t have to work” and he wanted to “take care” of me. I was financially dependant on him and no longer working. My social circle had consisted of folks from work.
Cheating – He wasn’t a looker, and he worshipped me…I had no idea what he was up to until he started acting strange. Even then, that was the night of the assault, and it still took me months to figure it out.
Projection – Abusive, cheating, lying, psycho, not normal, a freak, troubled…my life’s gonna “suck”, I must really like to be “alone”, I don’t know what “reality” is – all things he accused me of but were in fact his issues.
Rush to involvement – I had no idea this was a sign of an abuser; to get you involved before you can figure out what it is you’re dealing with.
The Smear Campaign/Pity Ploy – This is what he’d done to his ex-wife, and had begun with me, at work and in our social circle. He had alienated my best friend by the time he assaulted me.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 1:52pm
Rune says:
Carolyn: I understand. I use many techniques, but I am also dealing with intrusive thoughts, startle, etc., etc.
I have researched one type of therapy that may help, and if you can I encourage you to explore it. Neurotherapy or “brain-training” is used to help with ADD/ADHD, chronic depression, and PTSD. You may find a practitioner in your area, but please research it. If I had the money, that’s what I’d be doing!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 2:10pm
Rune says:
Carolyn: Ox-D mentions eye-movement therapy. There’s also a variation of this that uses gentle “buzzer” stimulation to the hands in alternating signals. The idea is that the cross-stimulation helps with getting the stored and highly charged memories out so the emotional charge can be removed. It has been shown to be effective with rape victims and war veterans.
I believe that the neurotherapy offers even more potential to “smooth out those old ruts of repetitive thinking” and lay down some new, healthier thought patterns.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 2:19pm
Rune says:
Hello PB:
Good for you that you can recognize all those patterns. And you KNOW that they are dysfunctional, and YOU are not the problem!
For this holiday season, give yourself the gift of forgiveness and freedom. Celebrate your strength and intelligence in your choice to break away from the craziness and abuse.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 2:21pm
BloggerT7165 says:
I would recommend that be cautious about Neurotherapy and research it as Rune suggested because the evidence is not there to prove it is effective over the long term:
Neurotherapy—also called neurofeedback and EEG neurofeedback—is a form of behavior modification that uses electroencephalographic (EEG) biofeedback technology to increase voluntary control over the amplitude and pattern of various brain wave frequencies. Proponents claim that modifying brain wave patterns is effective against anxiety reactions, mood disorders, substance abuse, attention deficit disorders and various other mental and emotional problems. Research shows that brain wave activity can be altered through various forms of biofeedback. However, a comprehensive review has concluded that none of these claims is supported by well-designed studies.
Lohr JM and others. Neurotherapy does not qualify as an empirically supported behavioral treatment for psychological disorders. The Behavior Therapist, 24, 97-104, 2001.
Kline JP and others. A cacophony in the brainwaves: A critical appraisal of neurotherapy for ADHD. Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice, Vol 1, No.1, Spring/Summer 2002.
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Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 2:23pm
Rune says:
As always, “buyer beware.” But I understand that part of the challenge of empirically proving the effectiveness of neurotherapy is that ANYTHING that helps us to gain control over our thoughts is effective — and in the studies, people in the control groups were also learning techniques to address their thought patterns, so they were also gaining help.
I have some more recent studies, but thank you for the references. I know that there has been controversy in this area, but I also know of people who have experienced permanent change with the help of neurotherapy.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 2:31pm
greentrees52 says:
I have had PTSD since a child (as a result of “mild” molestation by my favoriate maternal uncle).
I spent 5 years in therapy and went the whole route of recommendations for someone who was molested. During the course of my therapy, one “route of treatment” I found most helpful, COUPLED with talk therapy, was holotropic breathwork. I did several sessions over 2 years and it enabled me to work through all the issues of abuse without any medication AND a wonderful counselor.
Today, I still periodically have bouts when my PTSD comes back — I was taught “skills” to deal with it: deep breathing, rest, good food, no alcohol, exercise. Only twice, since I have gotten older (I’m now 52) have I had to take medication. I took Xanax for two short periods of time, when the symptoms were more than I good deal with and keep working at my job. I’m a senior litigation paralegal.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 3:44pm
Rune says:
Greentrees:
You might look at comments under “Entanglements with Sociopaths.” Ox-D describes the benefits she found with EMDR.
Your breathwork sounds like a clinical variation on “pranayoga” — Indian breathing techniques that are used for health and shifting of consciousness.
I think we should catalogue these techniques that have helped!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 3:52pm
greentrees52 says:
Rune:
I employ “pranayoga” on a regular basis to maintain good emotional health and reduce stress — three part breathing — also, alternate nostril breathing. Holotropic breathwork is much more powerful and must be done only with someone who is licensed. It is a process developed by Stansilov Grof. You can google it and find out much.
I’m, unfortunately or fortunate, as the case may be, aware that my childhood history to this day has an affect on my “choice or vulnerability” with regard to male companions — but I have learned after all these years that even with the pain, hurt, and confusion — wisdom takes root — and I don’t stay in the “hole” as long…SMILE — and I climb out stronger, more enlightened, gentler and kinder — and I pick better the next time around. However, this was my first entanglement with a sociopath and it really threw me for a loop.
I will see if I can find the comment you reference.
Thank you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 December 2008 @ 4:03pm
shelly2010 says:
For the last two years I have been in a relationship with a scoiopath. I met him when I was on an extended stay, in another province. He was 13 years older than me, said all the right things…he stole, lied, comprimised my sexual health when he lied about having a vasectomy…he cheated on me numerous times, did drugs behind my back…I took him back several times…sometimes months would go by…but I would still take him back.
He was charged by the police after assaulting me and I still went back after a 3 month break…why because I felt lonely. I am proud to write it has been almost six months since I have seen him…he contats me sporadically, confesses his dying love…. tells me he knows I was his last chance at living a clean honest life…leaves msgs on my ansering machine when he knows I won’t be home. I have been in contact with other woman who have been in relationships with him, and they have helped me get through this…I have also helped a young girl who was frauded by him…I have contacted the police, every employer he has, as he steals, jumps from job to job. The worst part of it all is I feel like noone beleives me unless they have experiences his sociopathic ways. He fits into the profile exactly. He slips through the legal system…he gets great jobs…but he usually screws things up in the end. I still can’t wrap mny head around it, and i’m borderline obsessed with my life over the last two years…how will I heal, how will I put this horrible experience in the back of my brain forever?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:19pm
nomorenomore says:
Good evening. My sociopath stole from me and stalked me online. The police were sympathetic, but really of no help. I’ve always had anxiety disorders, with agoraphobia, but it got much worse when the stalking started.
My ex-p stated online that ‘karma was going to get me, and I’m going to make sure it happens!!!’ The police didn’t think that this was a threat. He called my elderly neighbor who lives across the street and kept track of my comings and goings until she let me know he was contacting her. I let her know that he was a’nut’, and not to tell him anything! Poor dear..she was so upset and confused. She asked me if I was still addicted to painkillers. Ha! I kicked him out because of his alcohol and oxy abuse!
I developed PTSD along with dealing with menopause. I started losing my hair, gained weight even though I didn’t eat much, and was afraid to go outside…even to bring my garbage to the curb. I drew my blinds, and slept constantly. Oh all people, my ex-husband came to my rescue. Without asking for anything in return, he started bringing me to the doctors, went grocery shopping, and stayed over (on the couch) so I could sleep without waking up in a panic. We are still great friends.
After 1 year and 3 months…my hair has grown back, I have lost the weight, and I am finally feeling hopeful again.
The bad part is the HATE I still feel towards this man! I was brought up Christain, and hate was not part of that upbringing. I hope he suffers greatly. I am STILL healing from this bastard.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:47pm
nomorenomore says:
Oh, about the ’startle response’…I still jump when when the phone rings or someone knocks on the door. My therapists are helping me with this. Funny..he went to the same associates that I see…they pinned him as a sociopath after I kicked him out.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:53pm
nomorenomore says:
I wish someone here will respond to me. I feel like my writings don’t mean very much.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:55pm
nomorenomore says:
I guess I’m too….in your face. Thanks anyway.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 11:12pm
nomorenomore says:
Well, I’m off to watch some t.v. I’ve posted here before, and it’s like when i was trying to convince the police that I was being harmed. Too little…too late.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 11:25pm
witsend says:
nomorenomore,
Welcome to LF although I am sorry for the circumstances that brought you here.
Sometimes nights are “slow” here and not alot of people are on. I am sorry that no one spoke to you sooner.
No one likes to feel ignored
There is alot of good reading material here and I suggest that you read some of the articles. Don’t even worry about reading the comments underneath them for the time being. Kind of focus on the articles. Lots of information to take in.
They cover many different stages of recovery as well.
Sometimes the “night owls” come later during the night and are posting. (if you check back later) I was just checking before I went to bed and saw that you had posted.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 11:40pm
kindheart48 says:
hi guys, i’ve been off the site for quite some time and can’t find alot of people i know anymore but i know someone can help with this stupid question that is burning in my mind. Its a stupid question i know but im very perplexed for a good explaination . I’ve remained loyal to the s for well over 7 years and for at least the lst 6 he has been impotent. Now im goin g around wondering what the hell i was thinking all that time . It wasnt as if he made up for it in other areas either, he was horrible to me and cheated all along so im left thinking i must have been an idiot to have sacrificed from age of 43 to 49 without sex bt it was what i was used to and that dam insane loyalty crap kept me from moving on. Anyway thanks for letting me vent as the hindsite i’ve been having lately isn’t a pretty sight at all. Im thinking you idiot all the time lately. love kindheart
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 12:04am
kindheart48 says:
who is it that has the frying pan as i wish they would bonk me in the head for being celibate all these years as im hitting 50 this next year and dam im mad for wasting so much of you know what on that loser. kindheart
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 12:37am
kindheart48 says:
no more, i was reading your blogs and that would be frightening to be stalked by an s. Mine pulls the she is stalking me to look important and i’d hate to have to call the police on anyone in this town after my last incident with a detective, i’ve lost alot of faith in police but my s is a coward so i don’t have to worry about that crap thankfully. At least your anger is towards him and not yourself. Most of the years i spent taking my frustration out on myself and i was also diagnosed with ptsd, disassociation and adhd and numerous trauma things while in a trauma program last year but im much better this year even aft losing my dad to cancer last summer. Any time away from these toxic people is time healing i’ve come to learn as nothing works better. Yours will get his own karma so don’t waste any more energy being pissed with him, he’d love it. I remember the angry spells i’d get into, now im more at a place of taking some responsiblity for my part in going back over and over but iwill always feel that i never ever deserved what i got from him but he is what h is, indifference is where i hope to finally get to. love kindheart
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 12:46am
TooLate says:
pb:
I liked what you wrote about your experiences. I’m sure a lot of us on here have shared similar experiences. I hope you don’t mind, but I took your post and changed the specific circumstances to fit my own experience, and I’ve added some other things … including the symptoms of PTSD that I have been experiencing.
RED FLAGS – things that just didn’t feel right, right away:
Self-importance: Grandiose stories about his past. Things that went wrong were because of “the stupid people” involved (which was everyone except him). Stealing from his employer because his boss is “cheap” and he deserves better compensation. No matter how poor we were or how hard I had to work to support us, he couldn’t take a $10 an hour job because it was beneath him to work for such menial pay. Nobody lives up to his expectations, including HIS family, MY family, and ME!
Disrespectful – A comment to me about my profession as a nurse (a career which I am proud of) “Any monkey can be a nurse. They’re like glorified waitresses”. Also placing blame for any and all problems between us as MY fault. When I told him that I made a decision at HIS request, he stated “I thought I could TRUST you to make a good decision.” The reason he withheld affection and sex from me for 8 years varied, but the latest reasons were “You’re too fat.” (overweight? Yes, obese? No). When I lost weight it was “You lost weight and you look good, now if only you weren’t so moody all of the time.”
A Tendency to Snap at work/Perfectionist – Chastising those who worked with him (for free) at his request. “Are you blind? That’s totally crooked!”
No sense of the appropriate or boundaries – socially, sexually, or financially: He was hooked on the thrill of spending huge amounts of money, lavishing gifts on the kids, every payday without concern about the pile of bills at home. None of the bills were in his name, but mine. When I complained, he asked me how I could deprive the children or how could I be so selfish. I could always be expected to work more overtime or get a loan on my wedding ring at the pawnshop until the next payday.
Rush to involvement: That first year, he treated me like the sun set and rose at my command. I was the most special person on earth. By the end of our first year, I was SO hooked!
He was always busy: Enjoying a life while I was at work. Cruising the web, watching porn on the computer, training the kids to wait on him hand and foot, relaxing, napping, finding things on eBay to spend my next paycheck on.
Lavish attention, purchases, and gifts: food, clothing for my daughter (grooming activities to lure her into a sexual relationship with him). When confronted about treating her like a princess and suspecting more than the typical father-daughter relationship, he said to me. “How can you think that? You are paranoid! You need professional help! How can you be SO jealous of your own daughter?! What’s wrong with you?”
Impulsive/need for instant gratification – “I want what I want and I want it now” … with my income. Then he would say “We are a family. It doesn’t matter where our income comes from, it is OURS”. Of course, that’s easy to say if you are sitting home all day while the other person is putting in another 80 hours or better in one week. We couldn’t pay the property tax, but we HAD to have that desk on eBay for $2,000 and that scrumptious meal for 5 at the local high-end restaurant … for $300.
Overindulgence of MY daughter – to confuse her as to what love is, secure her loyalty, to control her, and to appear a doting father to everyone else. He still has her.
Lack of real friends … for all of us under the same roof: Isolation is the key. It was absolutely imperative that my time off from work be spent only with him and the kids. He didn’t like my family and friends, so we never spent time with them. My daughter was isolated from school as he encouraged her to drop out with only an 8th grade education. When I complained, I was a bad parent for not helping her to realize her dreams. He made sure to convince her of that as well. It’s moms fault. He never liked to have friends himself … and discouraged people from getting too close to any one of us. We never entertained other people at our house. If you diagreed with his logic in ANY way, he would accuse you of being too stupid/crazy to see the truth.
Inexcusable Behavior: The princess (my daughter) had a closet full of name-brand clothes. The boys each owned 1 pair of jeans. He left the boys home alone ALL day, without supervision. The only food available to them was donuts and other junk food. It wouoldn’t have mattered if there had been any real food around, because every dish was dirty and piled over the entire kitchen. There wasn’t a clean space large enough to set down a cup of coffee. Undermining my authority with the children. We used to support each others decisions, but later he decided that even if I said no … he would say yes. Who do you think the kids liked better?
Rationalizing: Anytime he did something that was “wrong” he always had a “very good reason” for doing it. Stealing, lying, cheating, blackmailing, hurting others …. you name it. When he was finished rationalizing, people were on his side.
Insane jealousy: “If you go home to see your friends, don’t bother coming back. Obviously they’re more important to you than your own family.”
Trashing everyone he knows when they are not present: This included his own children. When they were there, he acted completely supportive and loving. When they were gone, “I can’t believe what an idiot he is. It makes me wonder if I’m really his father!”
No respect for a childs right to be a child and to love both parents. It’s about what he wants or needs, not anybody elses. “it’s your moms fault that we don’t live in Hawaii and get to enjoy the beautiful beaches. I wanted to live there but she said no.”
Involving our children in our arguments, pitting the kids and I against each other, when I was not there to defend myself. He told me that his son moved out at an early age because “He said you were too selfish”. His son later told me that he moved out because his father was too controlling.
Spying on me: Logging into my computer and email … then setting up a POP3 so that all of my incoming messages also go to an email account that he set up secretly for himself.
Reading my emails and journals: Then picking apart every thing I wrote and skewing the meanings. Taking subject matter out of context. Making threats and accusations.
Harassing me over money, expecting me to account for every penny. Accusing me of lavishing things on myself, or hiding money, while allowing him and the kids to starve and go without necessary things.
OBLIVION: Things I simply wasn’t aware of:
Cheating: with my own daughter!
Projection – Abusive, cheating, lying, psycho, not normal, a freak, troubled…my life’s gonna “suck”, I must really like to be “alone”, I don’t know what “reality” is – all things he accused me of but were in fact his issues. Ditto!!!
Rush to involvement – I had no idea this was a sign of an abuser; to get you involved before you can figure out what it is you’re dealing with. For me, this didn’t mean imminent marriage … but imminent pregnancies.
The Smear Campaign/Pity Ploy: If you leave them … you know that this is a given. It starts before you leave, but you are not always aware of it initially, because you are never present when he does it. Since he does this frequently to others when they are not around, you gradually realize that you are no exception.
Ruining my happy moments intentionally: Celebrating Christmas with the kids, as a family, when I was at work instead of my day off. Trying to show me the pictures of how much fun they had on Christmas without me. On the day our first child was born, surprising me with the fact that he was not going to sign the paternity papers. On days when I felt happy just to be alive … finding something to say to ruin it and put me in a sad mood. Usually telling me was a big disappointment I was to him. Failing to recognize my birthday, Mother’s Day, and graduation from college.
THE FALLOUT for me: Symptoms of PTSD
Insomnia: Of course! Who wants to go to sleep when you know that there will be dreams about confrontations with him and/or my daughter. Actually, before I knew the truth about their relationship, I dreamed that I came home to find my daughter holding a baby. When I asked whose baby it was, she said “mine”. When I asked who the father was, my husband said “I am”.
Anxiety at reminder cues: I can’t listen to the same music, watch the same programs, or go to the same websites without reminders. Occasional comments by others reminds me of something he said or did. I dread shopping because it was one of his favorite activities.
Intrusive thoughts, images, sounds, sensations: From out of nowhere … causing anxiety and unrealistic fears.
Irritability: Low-tolerance threshhold. The kids are fighting … how can I handle this in a calm manner? I have to tell myself “Don’t yell … just see what’s going on”.
Poor concentration: It is affecting my daily life … from checking homework to losing my train of thought in conversation … to forgetting simple tasks at work.
Diminished interest in significant activities: Forcing myself to do something fun with the kids because I don’t have a “fun” mood. I want to sleep, a lot. I used to love photography, drawing, writing, listening to music. Not now.
Recurrent dreams of trauma: Last week I dreamed that I was in my car and lost control on the ice. I was spinning out of control and helpless to stop it. Last night I dreamed about another confrontation with my husband (again), who is (in real life) alluding the police. They are looking for him to serve divorce papers, (I think he believes they are planning to arrest him for the allegations my son made about his relationship with my daughter, but they’re not). In my dream, I found him, but he and my daughter just laughed at me and told me how stupid I was.
Avoidance of activities or places associated with the trauma: Loss of association with people I knew when i was with him as well. My instinct is to hole-up and lick my wounds.
Foreshortening of expectations about the future: I’m still there. I feel trapped in my situation and cannot think of a way out of it. Suicidal thoughts on occasion (which will never happen because of the vision of my children’s faces and knowing that I am their only hope).
Detachment from others: No, I don’t want a relationship! Leave me alone. I need my own place to get myself together … but I am stuck with a roommate who is pressing me to “cry on his shoulder”.
Avoidance of thinking or conversing about the trauma: Sometimes, it helps to talk about it, and sometimes talking about it destroys my ability to function … because the thoughts bring me deeper into sadness. I don’t want to wallow in it, I just want to forget about it for a while.
Poor appetite: I never thought this would be a problem for me … but I was wrong. The stress has caused a constant mild nausea and diarrhea. I don’t want to eat, but I force myself to eat at least once a day. I need my strength … for what, I don’t know.
Hypervigilance: That noise on the porch at night … is it my husband coming to steal the kids from me? No, he’s too clever to do it himself. He’d find someone to do it for him … someone he is blackmailing. I’m taking the kids to school by myself, lest they be snatched at the bus stop. If they must ride the bus, I watch them until they are safely aboard.
Startle reactions … ummm, no …. not yet. Unless you count being lost in thought and nearly missing that red light. WAKE up before you kill somebody! Sheesh!
Acting or feeling as if the event was recurring: It recurrs on a daily basis in my mind. I wish it would stop. I am suspicious of others motives … for speaking to me or complimenting me. I have lost my ability to trust. I have difficulty sharing compassion for others at the moment because I am so absorbed in my own thoughts and problems.
Inability to recall parts of trauma (amnesia): I tried to write down my experiences in the past 12 years. I have a few things there, but a lot of it comes in bits and peices when i am thinking about other things.
COPING SKILLS … or NOT from the fallout:
It’s amazing that I am still in one piece, but that doesn’t mean that I am coping effectively yet. I have been drinking alcohol more than usual “to take the edge off”. Not enough to get drunk or impair my ability to function. It started with my desire to get to sleep at night … one little beverage to mellow me out so I can rest. Then it was two little beverages to mellow me out. and now it seems that it is part of my routine. This worries me. The logical side of my brain is telling me that it’s not helping to take a depressant with an antidepressant. It’s not really helping me to get that good night’s sleep I’m looking for. It’s a crutch and it can sabotage my desire to heal from the experiences of the past 12 years. But the other part of my brain is saying “Shut up and leave me alone!”
Some days, I still feel like I am only circling the drain … and sometimes I just don’t care.
Kimberly
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:16am
shabbychic says:
Hi kindheart. I also have been off the site for a while, but I of course remember you, I always enjoyed “talking” with you, you seem like such a sweet person and your screen name is perfect for you… as you are such a kindhearted person, it comes through in your posts.
You sound much stronger now than you were last year, I think I am a bit stronger myself. This site has helped me learn about “them”, but I think I learned more about myself and my responsibility, just as you said. We are not idiots, just people who were a little lost, out of touch with ourselves. I am trying to think postive things about myself these days. Maybe we can figure it out together.
Sorry if I am rambling on and on. I wish I could express myself in a more articulate way, I’m not too good with words.
OK, so that was not a positive thing to say! Aaarrrggghhh!
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:50am
ErinBrock says:
HI CHIC:
It’s true……in learning, we change/grow…..becuase we can’t help but look into ourselves to see what got us to ‘today’.
Good to see you posting…..stick around huh!
Keep on keeping on girl!
XXOO
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 4:06am
shabbychic says:
Hi EB!!!!!! XOXOXO
You are fabulous!!!
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 4:15am
geminigirl says:
shabbychic darling how are you? Ive missed you! Where have you BEEN!!??? How is it with you?
Whats happening in your life? Love, Gem.XX
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 4:42am
midlifecrisis says:
Kimberly I can relate to so many of the things you have written about – I just can’t imagine how painful it can be for you that he is cheating with your daughter – isn’t that illegal??? How old is she? I can’t believe it actually. Mine has hooked up with someone younger – think this is a common ploy to make us feel bad about aging. But I can’t imagine it being a daughter – that’s just too much.
I can so relate to the ruined special occasions. Mine wouldn’t celebrate without me but would be sure to sulk the whole day then deny anything was wrong.
Ditto the spending – he worked and earned but would spend alll his own money and expect me to pay the bills. He had ruined his financial reputation and I didn’t want to ruin mine … so what can you do but pay them?
Always busy .. yep = always sitting at a computer while I ran around doing everything. Never once got up and offered to help – his ‘projects’ were always more important.
Rationalising – definitely. Everything was always not his fault – it was something else. Never once took responsibility for things he did wrong and if he did bow his head in mock shame, he would try to make me feel guilt by saying “It’s all my fault isn’t it? You always blame me” Ummmm yep – cause it always IS your fault buddy – you keep messing up!
Apologies were meaningless – he would just go and repeat the same behaviour a day or a week later.
Your description of circling the drainhole made me feel … such a rush of empathy for you – I feel the same on many days and some days don’t care like you. It’s so so hard to recover from. The betrayal and lies and loss of years and years.
I hope you’re feeling a bit better today – please know that I am thinking of you and holding you in my prayers – I hope you can smile today even if just for a short while. Things will get better – they have to.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 5:29am
ErinBrock says:
Gem and Midlife:
I’m off to bed……my time zone just exploded….i’m dust!
Chic…..XOXOOXOXOXOXO
BTW….did you see the moon last night….hens and I were howwwwllllllinnnnnggggg at it…..
thinking how fortunate we are to be in ‘today’!!!!
Love ya guys…..
Nighty night.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 5:56am
shabbychic says:
EB, yes I did see the moon, read you and hens running outside to look at it and thought DAMN I missed it!
Last time was so fun. OK, we’ll do it again sometime!!
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 6:05am
shabbychic says:
gem, hello sweetie! I’m still hanging in there, looking for a job, have gotten used to being here by myself… and it’s not so bad! I think I get bored more than lonely, which is quite different than how I felt before.
I read your news about NewLily. So sad. I am so touched to read how much your gift meant to her, you are a dear person who can see when someone is in need of a kind gesture… and I am sure you brought much happiness into her life. Such a very kind, loving thing to do.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 6:15am
midlifecrisis says:
EB ans Shabbychic – did indeed see the moon – what a beautiful sight it was. I said a little affirmation to myself about the future (and asked the Moondweller to kick his ass!)
Shabbychic – sorry nothing has turned up with work. I will keep my fingers crossed for you
Night night to both of you – waaaay past my bedtime!
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 8:26am
timeheals says:
TOOLATE
Once again, I can relate so well to your post! I remember telling him early on “all I’ve ever wanted is to be loved”…plain and simple..and feeding him that information, let him know that he could never say “I love you”…he had to keep me thinking he was falling, but not there yet…he had me HOOKED! The one thing that he KNEW would make me happy…he dangled right in front of me. He knew I would work for it…try so hard to please him etc.
And, he also knew how much I enjoyed sex with him, and made me believe that he doesn’t have sex with anyone unless he IS in love…yeah right…in love with himself! So I was totally confused when the sex was “withheld” after the first few months..very infrequent..he was torturing me and he knew it. I was so in love with him, so physically attracted, MONOGAMOUS of course, yet I got nothing but lies and excuses in return.
FORGETTING my Birthday! For three years in a row! I kept thinking how on earth could he forget…it’s a few days before a major holiday??? He should at least know the proximity! But he always had an excuse like “I’m so bad at birthdays…can’t even remember my own daughter’s sometimes haha” Yet, come to find out later, he to this day (5 years after break-up) remembers his ex-girlfriend’s BD and has always acknowledged it with at least an email. I am sure he did it on purpose, like you said to hurt me, or just because he didn’t want to have to get me presents for both occasions so close together. He would even say he was sorry, that he would take me out the next week…never happened.
I think that for those of us who are NORMAL, who have a soul…compassion, a conscience…the hardest thing to accept is to imagine our ex sitting there thinking to himself, “if I pretend to forget her BD, that would really hurt her feelings haha” I don’t know about the rest of you, but for me..the INTENTION to hurt emotionally…is just incomprehensible for me. I think it goes even deeper than physical hurt, because it seems to require so much planning..it’s not a spontaneous reaction to control the situation. Especially when we see the other side…the sweet, tender side…we say to ourselves “how can he be so nice yet be so thoughtless at the same time?” We ponder for hours, STILL trying to excuse their behavior.
All of the actual brain differences can certainly explain the lack of caring, the lack of impulse control…but what about the intentional infliction of emotional abuse even by a S/P who didn’t necessarily have an abusive childhood? A psychopath with no “logical” reason for projecting his hurt on someone else?
For me, it comes down to evil…the lack of any spiritual connection with God in them. We truly are dancing with the devil when we mess with these people, and it’s a dangerous game. So many of us have found that prayer and God’s help have been our only lifeline in all of this. And the bigger question…”why did God allow this to happen to me?” Well, if we don’t find the answer to that in this life, and we put our faith totally in HIM…we will be in a place someday to ask HIM face to face.
I keep telling myself that whatever happens to me in life is all God’s way of molding me to fit into HIS perfect plan…
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 9:57am
timeheals says:
NOMORE
Are you up yet? Did you get any sleep? So sorry you were having such a bad night, there are lots of posts to you from the wee hours, you could enter your screen name in the search bar to find them as they are on different threads. Read the one I posted above to toolate…you may find it interesting.
Another thing I suggest to ALL LF readers…since it’s Winter time…if you live up in the Northern part of the US, or anywhere else that doesn’t get much sun….make sure your Vit D levels are OK. You would be amazed at the severity of depression that low D levels can cause. Dr’s at times unnecessarily put patients on anti-depressants when all they need is Vit D!
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 10:17am
kindheart48 says:
Shabby, thanks for the kind post and you are right i have learned alot about myself and after my dad passed i meth this detective and my impulse was to help him as he’s married to a n/p but he went back and we were only friends so im actually secretly glad as i knew i couldn’t handle the bagge that came with him as they split 6 years ago and she reeled him back in as soon as he found someone. You know i learned mor e from him watching the pain and indecisiveness in him, it brought up alot of things. He had to actually ask me if his wife spitting on him was ignorant and i knew what that was, having to ask such a stupid question they have you questioning everything. While watching the pain he was in and noting how blase he was(said it was his job that caused but also blamed wife more at time) it made me think”how on earth did my friends all put up with me and why didn’t they just ignore me . One male friend was told by another AA memeber to leave me alone as he was enabling me from hitting my emotional bottom and at the time i sure didn’t like it but seeing this guy made me think that he was right. So many things came back to my mind comments from male friends like “how can you be disrespected the way you have by that man” and it was like water off a ducks back the same way i was trying to get the detective to see. I had given him two books first “Why is it all about you” and Betrayal Bond which i would kind of like back but i feel he needs more than i do right now. He sought a therapist etc. but at Xmas she as he put it was like a light switched on . Welll we all know about what that means but he’s where he is and i can’t change it, i did get a little snarly which isn’t how i normally am so i wrote a small letter after a lot of thought just saying that he didn’t really waste my time as he helped me to forget a bit about my dad passing and my son leaving for military. I truly wished him well in his marriage and said i knew how much his family meant to him an d that is what she uses to keep him. I left it with Please Take care of yourself. This was not to keep the lines open as i’ve learned the hard way not to get involved with others emotional problems it was more for me. I don’t want to be perseived as bitter and judemental as i’ve done the same thing as him many times over and as he put it didnt’ have a family etc. to consider. Thank you shabby for noticing that i am kind because sometimes i think i’d be better off being a bitch , a book i’ve toyed buying for years and years now called Why Men love Bitches but it’s not in me so why pretend right. Im glad to hear that you feel you are coming out the other side just as i do and alot wiser. Im not blaming the s anymore but i will never forget either but im striving for indifference as there is still a part of me that genuinely cares about him so im not quite out of the woods yet. It seems for so many years i fought this obsession so hard, trying hypnotherapy, trauma program, AA. Alanon, therapist you name it i didn’t want to be doing what i was doing and many of my friends stayed with me because they knew i didn’t want to be doing it. Very much akin to some people i meet in AA who really want to quit drinking but just can’t but they keep trying. I don”t know there is an old fellow we all regard highly in AA with i think 54 years Old Jack and he often mentions Father Time has a way with these things meaning addictions obsessions etc. and i think there is a lot of wisdom in that. Nature taking it’s course. Thanks so much for remembering me Shabbychick i seem to recall we wer e alot alike same age etc. I did go brunette for winter and im rather liking it. Sometimes i think maybe God wants me to be single and im at a point where im not going to fight it. To be honest i’d just like some company of men and forget the rest. Kimberly, i read your posts and you have had a very bad Betrayal Bond and i feel for all your pain and flashbacks etc. Have you read the book the Betrayal Bond it really does a wonderful job of explaining all the dynamics behind being betrayed and you have been by not only the s but your daughter etc. As for the drinky poos at night well i started out that way many years ago with the Irish Coffee to put me to bed and contined for years and the drinking escaulated, now im not saying yours will but you are very smart in recognising that you are defeating the purpose of the antidepressents something of which i wasn’t as smart in seeing. I know you are a nurse so you must be aware of seroquel in i’ say a smaller dosage, Im not pushing it as with any drug you can become dependent to sleep but it has helped me alot and i don’t have the nightmares like i used to . Our subconsious sure tells the truth sometimes when we are sleeping. There was a nice gentleman in the trauma program with me who had (military) bad nightmares every night about the taliban chasing him and was heavily sedated but he was a very unfortunate case . As with most the dreams do subside, i in early sobriety had many dreams of getting drunk and not being able to sober up which are very common but i havent’ had one in years so i think in time yours will disipate as well. all the best love kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 11:33am
kindheart48 says:
Timeheals , i was reading your post and about God and i agree with you wholeheartedly, i used to think in the early stages, how can people like this exist, is it real and why on earth did God have me meet one. Why me? I do beleive that all things happen for a reason and we come to a point where we can dwell on all the negatives of the encounter which i personally hav done for years or we can move on , learn the lesson and be the same kind , trusting people that we are , just a little wiser for all we have endured. We don’t have to become bitter or jaded because as i’ve read over and over and have seen in the posts over the years, and it’s been proven in studes with the book “Women who Love Sociopaths” and im including men here. We here at Lovefraud are all EXTRODINARY men and women with MORE OF the good qualities and because of that we won’t let them taint us permanently as we have larger reservoires of goodness so we can move on and be happy something they will never be able to do. So for as much agony and pain we have all endured with these creatures, we are really the lucky and blessed ones and i for one am grateful for that. I used to think i would just like one afternoon to be like one of them and not give a rats petuki but not now, not ever do i want to be them for one single second. So Cheers to all of you on here , as you are all very blessed and special because you have proven that you have more good than the average bear just for being here. Love kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 11:51am
kindheart48 says:
Shabby, im in the same boat as you as far as looknng for a job. Human rights thinks i have a case with th e Bank but im not countin gon that as i haven’t heard from them in over a month. Not even sure what i expect to get out of that but i should be out there looking. I keep using the excuse that the economy sucks which is the truth here but i need something to keep me busy for sure. Im getting a little unemployment right now and im cheap as bark to a tree so im getting by alright but i had to go to bank to get my convenience card replaced and one of my old supervisors was like ” do you have a job yet Shelly” out of concern as i know she’s watched my struggles over the years and knows i should be working, I couldn’t have lost my job at a worse time but nothing i can do but keep on trucking. Had to see dentist last week and need a tooth extracted so it’s also hitting me how much i miss my benefits etc. I probably should be looking for a job out of this area but am a little overwhelmed as how to go about it. kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 12:24pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
“Instead, the evidence points to post-trauma factors like social support and “additional life stress” being most important.”
yes yes yes yes yes.
i am growing a scab over the spath wounds – i need to contain them to deal with the other stressors in my life – like having lodging and work and money.
i want so badly to take the bandage off and deal – but i have to take the time i need to deal with the other things, and to get the resources i need to go there.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 1:39pm
kindheart48 says:
One Step, reading your posts reminds me of myself i wanteed a quick fix and answer both dealing with the s’s and with my sobriety. I’ve heard it said in the program it took us years to get into the bush so we don’t come out overnight or something along that line. Im like you in the priority area, i need to focus on getting a job but have not had the fortitude but i better get it soon. I’ve been spending alot of time alone which is completely out of character for me as im pretty high adhd , usually looking for someone to entertain me or distract me but i think this alone time has really made me sit and reflect on the last few years etc. A year ago the compulsion was still very real and strong and i never would have thought it would subside but life goes on and the s well becomes less important in the scheme of things (Thank God) and you start to finally figure out your priorities. When you come to the realization that you only have you in the end , things kind of take on a new perspective. I was always looking for someone, anyone to help, take care, entertain me and now i know i hav e only one person i can truly count on that is if i treat that person well,(and i haven’t most of the timeP and that person is little ole me. The scab over the wound reminds me of one time at the local womens shelter a nice therapist advised me to put some duct tape over my heart, and i cou,d actually picture it in my mind. One Step you will heal just as i have healed but it takes what it takes but it will happen but i wouldn’t have beleived it a year ago. Best wishes to you. love kh
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 2:04pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Nomorenomore and Shelly,
You are heard here, though sometimes we don’t get back to a specific person’s posts. WELCOME to LoveFraud, I’m sorry you both had a reason to find this place, but there is so much good information here and I recommend to every person who is new on this site to read back through the old archives and I have seen evidence lately (with old blogs and articles brought up anew) that people are doing that and that the wnderful articles in the archives still have the power to touch and help us heal.
Knowledge is power and we must take back our power that we temporarily gave over to them, thinking they would keep us safe. Unfortunately, we must keep our power to protect ourselves, but we may share our loves with those people who have proven their love for us, and sometimes it takes a while to learn the RED FLAGS that show that a person is a manipulator.
It is painful to realize that someone has abused us, hoodwinked us, and ultimately hurt us, but we must resume our own self protective power and get away from them just as a bird struggles to get away from a cat, or they will consume us, our very souls.
God bless you and again, welcome here to LF.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:20pm
learnthelesson says:
KINDHEART -
Oh my goodness kindheart…. is this really you? I was reading your above post with such smiles and warmth in my heart… I always knew I would see the day that YOU would get to the other side, find a better place..but to witness it is such a wonderful thing. There were nights I worried SO about you lady!!!!! Im so proud of you for doing the work and finding new perspective. Your post….WOW KINDHEART…what an example of finding your way back from hell – because you chose to!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck with the job search and happy and healthy New Year to you! – LTL xoxo
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:41pm
kindheart48 says:
thanks Learn for the boost of confidence but im always on guard as i know how easy it is to slip back into the funhouse so to speak . Im forever knocking on wood, picking up pennies as my heart has always ruled my head for most of my life but i do think im over the worst of it, sitting here still hurt over my dad, loss of opportunity to have a relationship with him etc. but i woulnd’t be me if i didn’t have tears and i’d rather be me than anyone else for a change, Thanks so much for all your caring and i didn’t think i could ever find a positive in all of this and you know that ole saying , make lemonade out of lemons, well it can be done. love kh
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:52pm
kindheart48 says:
forgot to post im just happy to have tears for my Dad and not tears for the s as they were wasted tears, my dad’s are not wasted. love kindheart, nice to cry for someone worth crying over is my point love kh
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:55pm
learnthelesson says:
I always remember this now…
“Choices are the hinges of destiny.” – Pythagoras
xoxo-LTL
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 5:12pm
learnthelesson says:
And this too, taken from my friends blog page..
“At some point, either people stop and change their lives or their lives stop and change them.”
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 5:24pm
TooLate says:
Midlifecrisis: You wrote: “I just can’t imagine how painful it can be for you that he is cheating with your daughter – isn’t that illegal??? How old is she? I can’t believe it actually.”
Actually, it is illegal that my husband had sex with my daughter when she was 15. It doesn’t matter that she is now a consenting adult.
However
The police decided against pressing charges against him because they both denied the allegations. I never saw my husband and daughter having sex, and even though I was suspicious at the time, my husband effectively made me feel guilty for even suggesting it. I dismissed my gut feelings because he made me feel so horrible. I had no proof to make a REAL accusation, so I just dropped the thought from my mind.
I left my husband in September, but it wasn’t until late November that my sons told me that they saw my husband and daughter having sex. I didn’t even question them about my husband and my daughter. It started when one of my sons came home and asked me what masturbation was. He said that a kid at school was bragging about it to his classmates when the teacher was out of the room. I took the opportunity to provide a little sex education to them. It was my oldest boy that told me he saw them. He said that the first time he saw it, he didn’t know what sex was then, but he learned it later on. My son is 11 years old. He also said that he has seen them having sex “4 times in my entire life”.
I remained calm, even when he said to me “That’s not nice, right mom? Because he’s married to you?”. I told him “No, that’s not nice.”
I wanted to say … “and it’s morally wrong … and illegal … the ^#%@$$#&$* !!!!” … but I didn’t.
I reported it, of course. The police are not willing to press charges they say because my daughter is unwilling to cooperate. I also believe, however, that they don’t believe me. They never bothered interviewing the kids. No doubt my charming and persuasive husband told them that I am just bitter about our divorce and am trying to make trouble for him.
I told the police that I don’t care if they press charges against him or not. I don’t even care if they crown him emporer of the state he lives in … I just want him out of my life and into my past … and I meant it.
My 2 sons were born before my husband and I got married. Although it upset me at the time, I am now happy that he never signed paternity papers. Spaths do not like to take responsibility, as we all know.
Several times during our marriage, we considered signing the paternity papers. We even went so far as to have them signed and notarized … but something prevented me from mailing them to the state. Women’s intuition? Fear? It was some faint voice telling me “Don’t do it.”
Now that I am seeking divorce, I am making an unusual request (according to my attorney). We are NOT seeking paternity. When I told him about my husband and our life together, my attorney immediately pegged my husband right away as a sociopath. A parasite in my life. HE thought it without me telling him my opinion! So, if things go my way, the kids will be mine and only mine. I am not on welfare so paternity doesn’t come into play. I will not get child support … but I don’t want it. He couldn’t/wouldn’t pay it anyway! But, he will also have no legal rights for visitation. He’s OUT! GONE! FOREVERRRRRRRR!
But you know something? Even though I have been telling the absolute truth … it bothers me that they doubt me …. but they believe him. He couldn’t tell the truth to save his life!
I take a little solace in knowing that I am right. I know it deep in my heart. It doesn’t bring justice, but if it brings me freedom and an opportunity at a normal life with my boys, I’ll take it.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:16am
TooLate says:
Furthermore …..
What bothers me is not how upsetting it is for me to know the truth about my husband and daughter …. but the impact that this knowledge will have on the boys. They saw their sister and their father having sex! I’m not sure if they realize that she is not his biological daughter. What kind of skrewed up message does this send to those 2 young boys????
Forget what I am feeling about it … worry about my kids!!!!
I am very concerned. Those boys are my life! They should never have wittnessed something like that.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:22am
geminigirl says:
The exact thing happened to twice betrayed, her daughter had an ongoing affair with her second spath husband,[not the girls father} I think its the ultimate “up yours, Mum!” gesture, their sick way of getting back at Mum.They are so sick, and so full of hate, envy, jealousy and rage. I had to leave my 2 girls with my alcoholic ex when they were 17 and 19.
Someone said to me,
“If you leave them, even tho its not them you hate, even if your saving your own life, they will punish you to the grave. It happened to poor NewLily, and its happened to me. They are FULL OF HATE. I turned myself inside out, a human pretzel, being so filled with guilt for leaving them, I was eaten up with guilt, mostly false guilt, I see now. I over gaveto them for years and years and years, and you know what? They STILL hate me and they dont givea shit about me.!! Im sure if I died, theyd dance on my grave!!.They are now 43 and 45, and they are HORRIBLE human beings. Gem.X
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:58am
TooLate says:
Geminigirl,
Is there no hope of saving her when he’s through using her?
It’s too much for me to contemplate right now.
I want to yell to her “RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!” … but I know she won’t listen.
I remember when she was little and she still loved me. It’s all gone now.
Kimberly
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 1:31am
geminigirl says:
Dearest kimberley, Darling I have no idea if there is any hope of saving her when hes through using her. It really depends on her. If shes NOT a spath, I think that life, and its hard knocks may bring her to a place where you can eventually emotionally reach her.I know Ive tried everything I know with my two daughters for 30 years, and they havent changed one bit. They are patronising, hard, using,scathing, liars, cynical,grandiose, everything wrong with their entire lives is my fault according to them. I have had, at last to accept that they cant and WONT change. There is something missing. neither of them has any empathy, compassion, remorse,consciense, kindness,any of the real human qualities., including humour.I have literally turned myself inside out for them, and the more I did for them, I think the more they despised me.I have finally had to go the No Contact route with the 45 year old, the other one who is 43, I havent seen in 17 years, -her choice,- and shes never allowed me to see any of her 3 kids,not even once. My heart is broken.My darling 2nd husband and I dont even know what were supposed to have done, or not done. Its a ll about power and control with spaths.They have to be “one up’ on everyone, especially their Mums.Im trying very hard to rebuild my life without them, as they cause me so much heartache, and I find as i get older,{Im 70 now} Im not so good at handling stress.For years and years, I allowed them to manipulate me out of a false sense of guilt at having had to leave them with their father, after I was beaten unconscious, and hospitalised. I went back that time, but 2 years later, I left him for good. Regretfully, I had to leave them with him, but as hed never ever hit them or abused them in any way,ever, I was reasonably Ok with this.I still had wall to wall guilt leaving them though. I had to save my OWN life!
Darling all I can suggest is that you pray for her every night, and ask all the good guys to protect her. You should see my home made altar, I have Mother Mary McKillop on there,{who is going to be Australias first saint,} St. Theresa of Avila, Christ, the Madonna,my Jewish candlestick,the arch angell Raphael, St. Michael, all the good guys are there, and surely at least one of them will help me! Good Luck, sweetheart, Hugs, and look after YOU!! Love, Gem.XX
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 3:26am
geminigirl says:
Also, darling, that dear little girl, treasure the memory of her in your heart. She is still there. These precious memories are still with you. {HUGS!!}} Gem.XX
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 3:28am
miss k says:
I read the first post and realize I am having a very hard time healing from all my ex’s abuse because the hatred is relentless. He WILL NOT stop doing things to us. After beating me nearly to death and me going to the shelter he got with someone I befriended there and was seeing her for ten years behind my back. It is over with him and I but they dont stop. She also practices voodoo.
He does thing to my house when I am at work. He does all he can to keep the abuse going . When does it end? When do they get what they deserve for all they have done to my son and I? The other day we were driving down the road. (I do all I can to stay clear of him) He was driving with her and made it a point to speed up so my son would see him with her. All this is causing my son to be hurt and this breaks my heart!!! Who do they think they are to keep on with their evil attacks every chance they get? And why would they- He got what he wanted! How dare he be angry with me and our son when we are the ones did the “right” things ALWAYS? And how can I heal and move on when even now they do all the can to hurt us????
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 10:48am
miss k says:
I was diagnosed with PTSD in 99. I have insomnia and very horrible nightmares, irritability..and all the other symptoms listed accept the last two. My son has several of the symptoms but the one I worry about the most for him is poor concentration. He is in 5th grade and this has significantly affected his learning. He is below grade level and having a very hard time learning and catching up. I worry that this may cause him to turn to drugs and ruin his life. So yeah, add to that the disease my ex caught from her and passed to me- My future looks very bleak- DOOMED actually. I cant even find someone new now because I dont want to pass anything on to anyone else so I continue to suffer in silence with no one to talk to and NO HOPE. I also am an only child and have no one else to take care of my aging parents. How can someone like me ever find hope or peace or even companionship and a small small bit of happiness. That seems to be asking for WAY to much.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 11:02am
Quantum Solace says:
Miss K:
I’m in a somewhat similar situation. I moved 1,000 away and still, he has caught up with me. He still has my daughter whom he is abusing. He’s also come after my son who is with me now only after he kicked him out of the house. He’s remarried to someone who is every bit of a P as he is. They have joined forces against us and it’s an alliance that can’t be beat: numbers, money and evil.
Much like you, I don’t see any hope for the future. As for someone in my life…ha ha! I ruled that out years ago! Seems like every one that gets close to me has the same traits as the other so I feel safe alone.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 11:33am
TooLate says:
Maybe I shouldn’t have gone to bed angry last night. I had read so many posts from people on here who had been, and continue to be, abused. I just became angry at all of those Spath monsters that devastate one life after another and are never caught or have to pay for the devastation they cause.
In my first dream, I was in my own house (a year or two from now), when my ex Spath showed up on my doorstep. He was as sweet and charming and handsome as ever. he acted as though nothing had happened between us. Like .. “HI! Long time no see!”. In the dream, my daughter stood beside him, smiling. My sons were on either side of me.
I didn’t greet him with a smile. I raised a gun (as in dreams, the gun came out of nowhere) and said “I’ll save them all MYSELF!” and pulled the trigger, right in front of his face.
It was like an episode of “Snapped”.
In my dream, I was not remorseful. I felt as though I had done a necessary thing, like shooting a rabid dog. I had no sympathy. In my dream, as far as what my children had witnessed, I was the mother protecting her young. They needed to see that their mother would do whatever it took to protect them from the monsters of the world.
It was a frightening dream because it was nothing like the way I would behave in real life. Am I even CAPABLE of doing something like that? I don’t own a gun and I’ve never hurt anyone in a physical way, nor contemplated murder. For as much as my husband has hurt me in the past 13 years, I’ve always said “I don’t care if he DOES live happily ever after, as long as it’s not with me!”
I didn’t wake up after that dream, but rolled right into the next one. In the next dream, I finally owned a house of my own … and I was showing it to some family members. The house was delapitated. It was actually in such poor condition that it looked like it needed to be condemned. The foundation bulged out in several directions. There wasn’t a straight wall in the house. As we stood there, and I was showing them a rather large room … the drywall over the entire ceiling finally gave in and crashed to the floor, leaving the roof beams and cobwebs exposed. My new house was collapsing around me. Strangely enough, I was in a pleasant mood. As my family stood there with their mouth agape in disbelief, I shrugged it off and said with all seriousness “Of course it needs a lot of work, but I can do it. A little drywall and spackle and it will be as good as new!”
It was as though my brain was telling me that my life, like the house, is crashing down around me. That it’s beyond repair. I am unwilling to see that. I convince myself (with false hope) that my life will be a simple fix. … just a little spackle and I’ll be fine. Everyone else can see the truth and can’t believe that I am so blind.
… like every night … the dreams just continue, one after another … like movie marathon night of scary movies. Strangely, I remember most of them. It used to be rare for me to remember a single dream, but now, they are all there when I wake up. They’re as vivid as reality.
I had one good night’s sleep the day before yesterday. I wish it would happen again.
My roommate keeps asking me why I can’t just go to bed at night and sleep. He wouldn’t understand that I am afraid to go to sleep because that’s where I relive pain after pain. I tell him I had a headache or a toothache or “I just couldn’t sleep”.
I think I’ll take a couple of Benadryl tonight. I have to get up early to take the kids to school and I’ll never make it if I am up half the night.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:05pm
miss k says:
I am sorry to hear about this problem you too are having.
I want to move but I own my house and why should I let him ruin that too. With the market the way it is I would lose money. The person he is with is also a P . She has stolen from me and basically done all she can to help ruin our lives.
When do they get what they deserve?
I know what you mean when you mention join forces. They have been against me and our son for ten + years and their forces increase as they recruit others, like another friend of mine, my ex brother in law,my ex mother in law, people at my sons school that know his dad and tell my son things, and even people at my sons church who tell my son things and harrass him on the church bus. Imagine that, my son can’t even worship in peace without being harrassed by her nephew who she placed on my sons church bus just to bother us. WHAT MORE??????To think they even tried to purposely infect our son (his own son). Who does that? and why would they attck me and my own son? Why target a ten year old just because they can’t get to me anymore?
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:19pm
miss k says:
Strange you should mention guns. I had a twelve gauge that he stole from me and I was just thinking the other day that I want to buy another one. I looked at some but they dont sell the one I had anymore ..it was called the “defender” and partly wooden. They just have cheaper plastic ones now. Maybe I can find a winchester at a pawn shop. But unlike you I really think I can pump it and pull the trigger if he EVER shows up at my door again. Sadly…they try to make it seem like WE are the crazy ones…but that would totally be so justified.
As for the dreams maybe you might think I am luckier as I have medication to sleep (you might want to look into that) but now most nights my dreams too are STOLEN from me.(so they win again)
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:30pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Dear TooLate,
I’ve been reading your posts, and never welcomed you to LoveFraud. I’m glad you’re here.
I have some thoughts about your dreams and your feelings right now. I can tell that you feel overwhelmed but circumstances, and you’ve mentioned that you’re having a hard time seeing a good future. I want to reassure you that these are normal feelings, as you’re working this through. And that you will feel better as time goes on. As strange as this may sound right now, these are just circumstances that you’re dealing with. They’re really challenging, but they’re outside of you. Not really about you. You’re going through the process of learning how to deal with them.
There are two basic ways we respond to traumatic events. One is to withdraw behind our boundaries, to contract into a tight watchful space in which we are very conscious of the difference between ourselves and what is outside of us. Any of us who have been involved in physical abuse probably know that kind of response in the first shock. We pull back into ourselves, becoming hyper-alert and clearly aware that what is going on is not about us, though we have to deal with it.
The other common reaction is to have our boundaries “blown.” We feel diffused, like we are part of everything going on around us, inside the minds of other people, vulnerable to them being inside ours. Our awareness is the opposite of centered in our own reality, more involved in the circumstances than ourselves.
This second type of reaction is really common after an extended exposure to a sociopath. In fact, they foster it. They want us to be more involved with them than we are with ourselves. They want us to shift our mental center of gravity away from our own thoughts, feelings, values, wellbeng to being concerned about them.
And a part of healing from these relationship is to shift our center of gravity back into ourselves and to recover our clarity about what is us and what is the outside world. That is, to recovery our normal sense of boundaries.
This anger that you feel is a good thing. It’s actually the antidote to despair, because it clarifies that source of your problems is not you, but this other person. It is part of the process of getting back inside yourself, and looking at things from the perspective of your feelings, values, needs and wants. Judging them, judging their behavior is part of identifying what is good or bad for you. Something you can only do from a position of standing inside your own boundaries, and thinking about yourself. How this is for you. Whether you want it or you don’t. What choice you would make, if given the choice.
I’m telling you all this because I think you’re subconscious is telling you something important in these dreams. The first one with the gun is about taking control. The way I interpret it is that you were saying “no.” I wouldn’t get hung up on the gun itself, as much as the message that you were blowing away him and his influence on your life. That you were taking it back, as well as taking your children back.
One of the things that makes it difficult for you and all the other mothers in these situations is that the material instinct is sort of a voluntary elimination of boundaries between you and your children. Their wellbeing is as important as our own, not just emotionally but in concrete and practical ways in which we support them, during the years when they are not yet able to take care of themselves. And if we cannot succeed in preparing them for independence and releasing them to their own lives, that feeling never really calms down to the normal concern that any parent feels for a child, even when that child has reached success independence.
But, and this is a big but, it is essential for parents to take care of themselves, even when actively parenting a dependent child, because you can’t give what you don’t have. If you are physically and emotionally drained, you’re not only risking your own health, but you are unlikely to be responding in the ways you would respond if you were well and happy. And you can make yourself more emotionally imbalanced and more physically unhealthy, by attempting to manage continuing overloads.
So what I’m trying to say here is that it is okay if you shift your focus, at least part of the time, to taking care of you, rather than feeling like you have invest every bit of energy you have in worrying about the wellbeing of your children. It is really important that you comfort yourself and seek personal sources of joy and outlets for creativity.
This huge vulnerability you felt about your daughter’s statements to you — rather than recognizing that she is immature and being influenced by other people — indicates that you are emotionally exhausted. And needy. Not in a bad way, not in a way that you have to judge yourself. But in a way that makes you vulnerable to the opinions of a child, and an abused child at that, rather than you own knowledge that you are as good a mother as you can be.
If you weren’t wounded and healing, you wouldn’t internalize these kind of opinions. Or you would interpret them from where they came. And I’m not criticizing you for not being totally okay right now. You’ve been through a lot, and have reason to feel vulnerable. But I’m trying to encourage you to realize that, ultimately, your reality is the only truth you have to worry about. And that other people often project their own issues on each other. It’s one of the reasons we eventually realize the hurtful things other people say are evidence of their internal dramas, not anything about us.
To get back to your other dream, your “daylight” self which is so upset and grieving about so many things that seem out of your control interprets this as evidence of your life falling apart. But your deeper self, I believe, was sending you a message here. Yes, the house looks a little rickety and broken down right now. But you, in the dream, took pleasure in ownership of the house. It was, for the first time, yours. And there was a calm, realistic, and optimistic analysis in that dream that could you fix it and make it a good place with some time and effort. The deeper part of you believes in you, and is sending you a congratulatory message on your work in taking back your life.
I know you don’t feel wonderful right now, and you have a lot of worry. Particularly about your daughter. I’m an incest survivor, and I can tell you that she is damaged and there are going to be repercussions in her life. But this is out of your control. Even if you did the legal work of charging your ex with statutory rape and getting him out of her life, until she recognizes that she has been harmed and seeks help, you can’t fix her.
The larger truth is that all of you have been abused. And I would suggest that the best, most important and most influential thing you can do for your children is to get yourself well. Take your recovery seriously and learn the important lessons from the experience. These people ultimately are our teachers. They teach us that we need to learn to have better boundaries, take ourselves more seriously, take better care of ourselves, and be more active about building the lives we want, lives that reflect what is important to us and what satisfies our souls.
You can be an example to your children. Not only as a good and caring person, but as an example of how we heal and learn from adversity. Being loved by someone who is centered in herself, able to navigate the ups and downs of life, and honest about how she feels and thinks is a lot different than being loved by someone who is traumatized, frantic with worry and unhappy with her own feelings. The more healed you become, the better you’ll be a beacon to other people struggling with these challenges.
And I suspect the day will come when you say something quite different to your daughter, such as, “When you recognize that you’re being abused, and you want to return to a safer environment, I can offer you that. But only if you agree to live by the rules of this house, and to get counseling to help you heal the terrible things you’ve been through. I love you and I will help you as much as I can.”
Your boundaries are important too, and your ability to take care of yourself. If you can’t do that, you can’t take care of anyone else.
I hope this makes sense, and I haven’t offended you. I think you’re doing great.
Kathy
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 1:28pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
TooLate,
I just wanted to add one thing. I know there was a lot to digest in that last post, but after I wrote it, I thought about the feelings of guilt that I’m sure are underlying some of your worry.
Eventually, everyone is responsible for themselves, and part of parenting is communicating that responsibility. Just as I’m encouraging you to think about taking care of yourself, you might think about turning any hurtful comments from your children back to them, questioning them about their own choices. It’s normal for kids to blame their parents, because the kids feel dependent on their parents’ decisions. But I think it’s a reasonable part of your role to ask them, “How are you taking care of yourself in this situation? And are you doing the best thing for your own safety and happiness?”
Your children are old enough to be talking about their choices, and having awareness of the repercussions of those choices. I’m not suggesting that you deluge them with worry and lecturing. But asking how they think this will come out, and offering help if they want it to come out differently, may be an effective way to approach some behaviors that worry you.
By help, I’m not suggesting that you breach your own boundaries of what you consider safe or sane. That would be enabling. But one of the things about growing up is getting an enlarged view of our potential options. If they know you’re behind them, and they know that you might be able to come up with ideas that they didn’t think of, it might improve things all around. Both the relationships between you, and their feelings that they have better choices for now and the future.
As for you, guilt is not a productive feeling. Not when it’s extended. If you have something you need to apologize for, especially with yourself, do it. And learn from the experience, so you understand the mistake and how not to do it again. That is what guilt is for, and that’s all it’s for. Not to beat yourself up endlessly and keep rushing around in emotional circles.
You always did the best you could. And if you don’t believe that, maybe you should do the Post-IT note thing. Put them up on the mirrors in your house and places you’re likely to see them. You always did the best you could. Everyone makes mistakes. Forgiving yourself is an essential part of healing. You are a good person, and you deserve that understanding from yourself.
Love –
Kathy
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 2:00pm
Quantum Solace says:
Miss Kay:
It’s the same thing with me. Even my own brother turned against me before he found this other Pschyco that he married. She hates my kids and was the one that caused my son to be kicked out. She hits my daughter. And, now, she’s made him come after me thru the legal system for child support she thinks she’s going to get out of me. Little does she know that the bastard not only never paid me child support but also owes me twice any amount that I may owe him. My hope for now is that they split up soon. If I could only figure out what makes her tick, I may be able to get them both off my back. I know he’s entire to apathetic to try anything on his own.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 2:22pm
TooLate says:
Dear Kathy,
I am not offended by anything you wrote. As with all truths, it made perfect sense.
I am far from perfect. I will not lie to myself about this. I am not a sociopath or a bad person, but I do recognize that I cannot always see emotional situations clearly. I know that it is easier for me to make excuses and allow myself to fail than it is to be strong and prevail. I do recognize that I need help. A LOT of help.
I thank you for your honesty and clarity. Some days I have so many thoughts and feelings and anger and, and, and … circling and whirring around me and around in my head that I can’t see the forest for the trees.
Your post helped me to step back and take a look.
Your idea about the gun in my dream was a perspective that never occured to me. I was so startled and scared by the violence, that I didn’t see any other meaning.
Likewise, the perspective you gave me of the house and my “blind” optimism was also something I hadn’t considered.
I often feel as though I am barely able to provide the necessary environment (and strong parent … that would be me) that my boys need right now. I fear that I am allowing innefective coping mechanisms to take me in the wrong direction. There is a soft voice that is telling me … take a Benadryl INSTEAD of an alcoholic beverage before you go to sleep. I am a nurse. I know what I SHOULD be doing. It’s just not always easy to take my own advice. I don’t want to be circling the drain … I want to get stronger.
Your post was full of wisdom and written well. Although I have to leave for work now, I’d like to print your post out when I get home so I can read it to myself over and over again. It may be a way for me to stay focused. What you suggest is the direction I want to go. I need to keep reminding myself.
A simple thank you is not strong enough to express my gratitude. I don’t know what else to say … except that your post really reached me and that it will most likely have a positive impact on my life from this day forward.
Kimberly
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 2:25pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Kimberly, I’m so glad and relieved. I didn’t want to add to your burden in any way. I know how hard this is. It used to relieve me a lot when my therapist told I’m on the right track. And I can easily say the same thing to yo. This is a process, and you’re clearly moving through it.
Kathy
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 2:41pm
Cat says:
Hi everyone,
I’ve been reading the posts on this thread and learning a lot. Kathleen, I SO relate to much of what you wrote to Too Late. I am feeling that abuse today. I am feeling that overwhelming feeling that no matter how hard I work, no matter what I do, I will never get out of the financial and emotional pit I was left in. I keep thinking of all that he took, without regret, remorse or guilt. I am ANGRY today because on many levels, he took my belief in mankind and myself.
Several years ago, I had him arrested for domestic violence It was for holding pinning me down and attempting to have sex with me. I wouldn’t do it and he looked me in the face and said, “Are you scared yet?” Really, as I look back, that was attempted sexual assault and THAT is what he should have been charged with. He told the police he was “just kidding” with me. I am just now realizing the extent of this and maybe this whle thread triggered a past issue that I had buried.
I don’t know whether to cry of get a baseball bat out and go find him. Of course, I won’t do that because it would just give him satisfaction. It’s just one of those days. We all have them and I’m sure I’ll get out of it, but right now I’m feeling very tired as well and maybe, I should take some of the advice on here and use it.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 3:14pm
Cat says:
No, I don’t think I’ll ever be the same again.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 3:16pm
Quantum Solace says:
Neither will I. I have lost so much of me that I know can’t ever get back. He’s made me a worse person and I hate him all the more for that.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 3:55pm
learnthelesson says:
Cat,
As you are sorting it all out and experiencing bouts of anger and sadness and confusion you will see some days are way more difficult than others.
It sucks (cant think of any other word). Its awful. I hated some of my days. I stayed in bed alot… but its what I needed to do…until I started having better days and more answers after doing all of the hard work.
I was so ANGRY and felt he took my belief in mankind and myself too. And with the help of others here, I realized that my belief in mankind and myself wasnt fully developed, understood and realized before and during the time I was with him.
I really didnt know evil existed. I really didnt know myself or my inner strength and deservingness. Up until my experience with him I was pretty much fortunate to meet so many good people in the world. I had such a sweet innocence about mankind and myself…which proved to be dangerous. It wasnt until during and after my experience with him that my belief in mankind and myself became more realistic.
I dont think Ill ever be the same again is something I would say over and over again – full of anger and sadness. Eventually I found myself saying I dont think Ill ever be the same again – in a positive and reassuring way. I would like to say had I never met him I would still be the same and I wouldve never had to change the way i viewed others and myself…but eventually I would have crossed pathes with evil, or disordered selfish souls – and I had to come to terms they exist and that I CAN protect myself from them with the choices I make.
I went through a living hell. Court orders and judgements against him. Embarrassment of the money he stole from my family. My loss of the joy of life…the nurturing for my children…the loss of myself…
I am not the same person as I was before him. Today, for me, this is not such a bad thing. I know you will get there too…I just wanted to share that there is light at the end of the tunnel…for the longest time it was just a speck for me, if not non-existent — and then the pieces started coming together. HANG IN THERE!!!!!!
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 3:56pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Cat, you won’t be the same, because you’ve been through it. But it doesn’t mean you won’t process it and come out the other side, smarter, stronger and more competent in your life.
Traumas are, at base, things we didn’t expect. Things that don’t fit into the rules we live by. And this whole healing process is about absorbing that information, figuring out what it means to us, and revising our rules of living.
What we learn depends on where we are in the healing process. That’s why our perspectives change over time. In each stage of healing, we learning something different. And sometimes we’re bouncing around in the different stages, because we’re further along on one part of it, just starting in others. Relationships with sociopaths are complex traumas. There were lots of experiences, and sorting them out takes some time. However, you’ll find, as you go on, that you’re learning more comprehensive things that cover new memories as they come up. Eventually, all this emotional reactivity calms down, and you can get on to later-stage work on consciously changing some beliefs and habits, and changing your life.
So, you’re bouncing around from feeling an overwhelming sense of loss to feeling angry and ripped off to feeling a kind of depressed grief. Believe it or not, this is great news. You’re not in denial. The closest you’re coming to bargaining is imagining that a baseball bat might offer some kind of cure. (Just joking; that’s just healthy anger.)
What I’m not hearing is a strong sense of your improved capability to defend yourself in the future. But I haven’t read a lot of your posts. Your writing is really lucid and self-aware. You are angry about losing what was yours, which is really good. Nice solid boundaries.
This is just a Kathy-analysis of what you just wrote. But from my perspective, you’re doing well. Maybe hanging out on the edge between anger and acceptance. It’s one of the harder transitions in this process. You’re saying that you’ll never dig yourself out of the pit. But maybe you’re really saying that whatever you had before is gone and you’re not going to get it back. True. (Just like what you said about not being the same being true.)
It’s a tough thing to face. Up to that point, most of our processing work is about how many ways we try to avoid the truth of our losses. But facing them brings their own rewards, and new levels of learning. If you finally agree that this is where you are now, this is who you are now, and this is what you have now, what then?
You’re not only talking about what you have, but who you are. Which is good. Who you are is really the issue. In my processing, I remember finally getting down to “thinking the worst.” Okay, no one will ever love me again. Okay, I wasted so many years of my life. Okay, I lost my business and I don’t have the energy to ever put that money together again. I’m older. I’m less trusting. I get mad faster. I’m less sensitive to other people’s feelings. I may never be able to pay off my debts. I may never be able to stop talking about my past and my griefs. Suppose all of this is true, what then?
And that started me looking at myself in a different way. Maybe doing an accounting of what I had left. The grief stage of this whole process is part of that accounting. In figuring out who we are now, we have to look at the things we really liked that don’t exist anymore. It’s almost like weighing ourselves on one of those old fashioned scales with two sides. One the one side is the stuff you lost, on the other side is what’s left. And the thing that somehow keeps being proved is, yes, it was important once, but here I am alive. And it just goes to show that I didn’t need it to live. And maybe I really liked my life then, but this is my life now, and I can live in the past, or I can figure out how to get on with things.
There’s a point in all of this that we wake up to the fact that our life is still full of choices, some of them a lot better than others. And that every choice we make right now affects what tomorrow is going to be like. And that awareness takes us from focusing on control of external circumstances (which we learned in the angry phase) to focusing on how to use them creatively to build something. All those skills we built in the angry phase are important, but now we recognize that they’re just life skills, not what life is about.
And all of this occurs in the context of learning how to live in a world where this surprising thing (the trauma) is one of the things that might occur. So that we don’t have any more losses to that particular thing. So we recognize it, and know what to do about it if it shows up again. And so we put it where it really belongs in our mental filing cabinets, as something that happened to us, as an encounter with an unpleasant circumstance, as a lesson we learned about the world, as a stimulus for personal growth.
I’m walking you through this, so you can see where you are. You are doing great. Don’t worry more than you have to about how you’re going to come out. You were made to heal, and you’ll be okay, better in fact. It’s just one of the harder lessons of life, but we’re built to heal and learn. And you’re on the path.
Love —
Kathy
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 4:00pm
miss k says:
Dear Quantum Solace, we have to believe that they will get theirs….even though it seems to be taking sooooooo long. I too have become a worse person and hate them for it. I didnt know that kind of evil even existed in the world….oh how naive I was. But be glad you dont understand what makes them tick….I am. I too wish they would break up so he can at least look as miserable as he made me feel but he too, is too dumb to think for himself. All I can do is put it in Gods hands and attempt to somehow let go and heal…however hard that is.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 4:27pm
miss k says:
Also, I will never be able to be healthy now or in another relationship. That makes me so angry that they have each other and I am alone with no one and all this anger
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 4:31pm
learnthelesson says:
Miss K
Do you remember when you were with him and to the outside world “pretended to be ok, be happy”… chances are if thats not going on now with him and another victim…it will be happening down the road.
And lets not forget – the type of person that lasts with a S is someone who is willing to give up herself, her attributes, her shining light– in order to remain sub-par in the relationship. Better her than you!!!! She can have him – is I how I looked at it.
How are two losers together feeding off of eachother better than one recovering winner who is flying solo right now???
I respectfully disagree that you will never be able to be healthy now or in another relationship…it just takes time work and believing in yourself focusing on yourself.
And if you do what you say…then you will def be your healthiest again one day –
“All I can do is put it in Gods hands and attempt to somehow let go and heal…however hard that is! ” Now you’re talking like youre on to something
))
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 4:43pm
Quantum Solace says:
In my case, Miss K, I know it won’t last much longer. As for justice, well, I gave up on that a long time as I came to realize that in order for there to be any justice, we have to realize what we have done & feel remorse and neither one of them has a conscience, him less than her. I learned that lesson with his parents who raised him to be the monster that he is today. He used them just as he used me, when they got too old to be of any purpose to him, he threw them in a nursing home and forgot that the existed. I used to think, how’s that poetic justice? Then, I realized that they had no clue that what he had done was a result of the way in which they raised him and, any morbid joy that may have been in my knowing that just went out the door. The same thing will happen to him, he’ll end up his days alone and miserable but never knowing how or why.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 4:45pm
Cat says:
Miss Kathy,
Thank you!! so much for your words! Everything you say makes a lot of sense. I am officially “on the scales” today.
I DO get into periods of wondering just how I’m going to come out of all of this and part of that is standing on those scales. What I’ve lost cannot be retrieved. I CAN build something new, however, now and in the future. In fact, I’ve been getting these flashes of excitement over new ideas and new ways to make money and I didn’t get excited about ANYTHING for a long time.
I do have issues with personal safety. I went 2,000 miles away from this man(?) and he still came after me. I do have a permanent restraining order, but like so many of them, he tends to forget the laws were written for him. I’ve also seen him con the justice system itself and then laugh.
When I look at what I have, freedom, peace from his chaos, my child, a job, I have a great list! I think I’m in a phase in which I take that which is good and then my mind shifts automatically to what I’ve lost. That’s when the anger kicks in. I wouldn’t steal a toothpick, but he thought nothing of taking, as though it were owed to him, trust, faith, money (thousands and thousands) and so much more. And I know he will KEEP taking, just not from me.
I think I AM in full blown grief over the things that cannot be retrieved and I relate to what you said about all that which you had lost; loss of energy, trust, myself in a lot of ways.
We CAN take the experiences we’ve had, pick them apart and learn NEW ways to live in this world, find someone to share it with and most importantly, get ourself back. I’m coming to truly understand the person I come to be will be a few parts old + a whole lot of new parts.
The person that I am when I am finished walking through this process isn’t the person I was when it began. I am counting on taking days like this and learning more from them than those that are good ones. That may sound odd, but it’s in these moments that I think we learn the most and are the most receptive. I can truly relate to those on here who have said their greatest teacher has been their ex.
I would be lying if I said I didn’t want to see him get his. I DO have that anger and resentment factor still running around in my head. I know it won’t vanish overnight and I’m not trying to make it go away. I’m too new in the process.
What I do NOT have is an urge to call him. I realized that just as I was typing this (unless he’s up for some baseball. LOL)
An accounting is exactly what I’ve been doing all day.
I’ll re-read what you’ve written. It’s been such a help!
Hugs,
Cat
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 5:32pm
Cat says:
miss k,
I’ve been dealing with that very thing all day. Kathleen has written a wonderful post on here about what we lose, but you know what? We ARE strong enough to come through it all and when we do, we are a newer, finer version of our former self and someone will see that in us and love will find us again; HEALTHY LOVE.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 5:35pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Cat, I think you’re right about learning more from the bad days. Whatever is bad about them gives us a reason to look inside ourselves, and that is when the insights start to pop up.
It took me a long time to stop wishing my ex ill. I used to fantasize about seeing him down the block in NYC, and having a rifle to just take aim and shoot him. If he appears in memory — usually associated with some terrible thing he did or said — I still shoot him. Bang! (That’s why I could so relate to TooLate’s dream.) It’s the fastest way I know to cancel out his influence on my thinking.
But these days, I’m more into recognizing what the type, including him, and making decisions about how to fence them out, limit the damage or sabotage them so they go away. It’s just just part of the general housekeeping of life, as impersonal on my side as it is on theirs.
Oh, except for one other thing, which I mentioned recently on another thread. As far as he personally is concerned, he is in debt to me. Whatever he took under conditions of bad faith, he owes me. And he will continue to owe me.
I don’t have any problem telling other people that he’s a con man who preys on women. I know that makes me look like a bit of a dope, but hey, it was an educational experience. And I’m alive to tell the tale.
A more serious issue is how vulnerable I could be to him, if he ever showed up in the future. He got back into my life four or five times after I tried to shut him out. Those addictive neural pathways don’t go away, just because the circumstances aren’t right to make us want to jump back on the rollercoaster. Thinking about him being in debt to me helps here. I know what he cost me and I know what it cost me to get well. If he showed up again, the first thing I would ask is if he came to pay me back, and then tell him that a $50,000 cashiers check and nice piece of jewelry to make up for the aggravation is the price of even saying hi to me. Otherwise, get off my property or out of my space.
On another level I can be more understanding about his history and how tragically damaged he is. But that’s very theoretical, and not particularly useful in the real world.
I’m going on and on here. I think the main thing is that, once you’ve let go of your losses, learned the lessons and moved on, anger becomes much less seductive. And if it does rise, it probably means there is some other corner of the thing you have worked through yet.
One of the really great things about the process, in my view, is that it offers many of us an opportunity to work through serious trauma to resolution and personal growth for the first time in our lives. I have a theory that however far we’ve gone with trauma-processing in the past is going to be pretty easy for us to get to now. And for those of us who are carrying around old, unresolved trauma from our childhoods, we may well have gone no farther than denial or bargaining.
Here on LoveFraud, pretty much everyone moves into anger, which is hugely more functional than the previous states. If we can do the rest of the grief process, it means that we know how to process unexpected and painful events right through to the learning and recreation of ourselves and our lives. And also to have the confidence with our ability to handle life that comes with it.
I think that’s immensely cool. And it’s why I’m such a cheerleader for this healing process. We’re not just getting better, but we’re learning to get better and better.
Kathy
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 7:17pm
TooLate says:
I just want to paint a picture for all of you before I go to bed for the night … to a sleep tortured by the usual nightmares. Maybe if this is my last thought of the night, I will have at least one pleasant dream. I also think that hearing about another person’s hope, you may all see that hope can be found in your future as well. Let the story begin!
I live in a small town. It is large enough for a community college, but it is no city by any stretch. It has a hospital and clinics and a WalMart. It is located only 30 miles from the place I was born. The people here are of the kind that I was raised with. I am like them and they are like me. I don’t live in my hometown, but the feeling of home and familiarity is VERy strong here. It is an important feeling to have after leaving an Spath. There is no conflict with familiarity.
Last autumn, I heard about a vacant house very near to here. I had JUST left my husband so I inquired about the vacant house, but my mind, feelings, and emotions were somewhere else.
The house is a large box …. almost perfectly square. It is 2 stories tall. It has 4 bedrooms upstairs and a livingroom, kithchen, bathroom, and parlor on the main floor. The exterior is covered in a hard asbestos tile siding that was popular about 60 years ago. It sits on 2 lots in a tiny little town (about 3 blocks long). At a guess, the population must be somewhere between 50 and 100. It is So small, that living there is similar to living on a farmstead. isolated and quiet. It is only 12 miles from where I now sit.
I remember that house. When I was 5 years old, my great-grandparents owned it. I remember the interior and the huge vegetable garden that my great-grandfather had in the giant yard. I remember that I ate the most delicious-tasting home-grown carrot from that garden and getting into trouble with my parents because that huge carrot had filled my stomach and ruined my appetite for supper.
That house at this time is a lot like me. It has fallen into direpair. It has been neglected and abused. It sits empty. It is old an unappealing. If it continues to be abandoned, it will be too late to save it.
When I look at the house, I see myself. It needs a LOT of work, but it is still structurally sound. It’s not too late … if only someone could see its potential.
Last autumn, I contacted the owner. He is some distant relative of mine. We had never met before. I told him that I was interested in buying it if he was interested in selling it. he told me that it has been empty for several years and has become his “white elephant”. He said to me “If you pay the back-taxes on it, I’ll give it to you!”.
The back-taxes amount to about $5,000. No, that’s not a typo. Five thousand dollars and it’s mine.
Of course, it needs a LOT of work. Part of the roof is flat (by design). The roof has a tendency to leak, though the leak is small. The owner told me that they have patched it a few times, but it always starts to leak again after a while. The interior damage from the leak, I am told, is minor.
Structurally, the house is sound and straight. It does have old, round, cloth-covered wiring, no furnace, and no pump on the well. The septic system … who knows?
In reality, the house would need to be re-roofed, then gutted. The wiring would need replacing … and it would need new insulation and new drywall. A new furnace, a new well pump, and a new basement (in my humble opinion).
I want it.
My credit is currently trashed from my 13 years with an Spath. But I could afford $5,000 within a year. Even if I put $40,000 into it, I would still come ahead of what houses of that size go for in this area.
The satisfaction? My Spath husband who tortured me all of those years did remodeling for a living. Lazy by nature, he always managed to drag me with him on my days off from nursing to “help” him with his work remodeling. Asshole that he may be, I did learn a lot about remodeling from him. I can do wiring, tiling, drywalling, roofing, siding, hardwood floor refinishing, cabinet installation, painting, and general construction … you name it! Aside from my 2 boys, I learned to not be afraid of remodeling because of him. Anything and everything that my great-granparents house needs … I can do all by myself! Not only that, but I learned from a perfectionist!
I dream of that house. I dream that by healing the house, I can heal myself.
I talked to one of my sisters about the house. As it turns out, there is another house for sale in the same town. She and her husband (and their 3 children) have decided to buy the other house in the spring and move there as soon as school is out.
In late May, I may have a huge project on my hands … and my sister living a block away.
I would help her .. and she would help me.
What I would like is for my divorce to be fianl so that I can buy and own the house independently without having to share it with my Spath.
Maybe it’s just a pipe dream … but to me, that house is an opportunity to have a place of my own. A healing place. A place of comfort and peace.
I hope I haven’t bored you with my dream. I still worry that if everything doesn’t go just right, the deal will fall through.
I am not a religious person right now, but if YOU are, please pray for me. I NEED this, so badly. A part of me says I can … and I am holding onto the idea with a death grip.
Thank you for listening, Kimberly
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 4:00am
one_step_at_a_time says:
toolate – i hold the dream for your house in my thoughts tonight.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 4:27am
Jake B. says:
Hi toolate – Kimberly,
I’ve never posted on here but I know this site very well…..I’m here like everyone else, but my experiences are with the female variety….
I’ve read your post and I just like to say, I’m praying for you to get that house!
Peace to you,
Jake B.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 5:45am
midlifecrisis says:
Kimberly – I will definitely pray for you – the house has meaning for you. But you know what ? God helps those who help themselves
So why don’t you see if you can raise a small loan from among your family to pay those back taxes … and look at what you have that you no longer need that you can sell … and most importantly of all … get a contract signed with the owner – that YOU can have that house. A verbal agreement is nothing. Start thinking outside the square about the money and it will come. You will find the credit once you have the house – the community college might even have construction courses running and be willing to get students doing their practice work on it 
I wish that you get that house. And I will pray for it.
Jake – welcome to Lovefraud – sorry for the way you found this place (being with an n/s/p) but glad you found us! Please post some of your story as soon as you feel able and rake around the archives for some good reading. You will soon be on the road to recovery like all of us
Welcome – you have found a good place here!
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 6:07am
blueskies says:
Too Late – thank you for sharing the above.
A timely reminder for me that our hopes and ideas are very powerful.Its easy to lose sight of that when you’ve fallen into a hole or hit a rough patch so thank you.
I read this in a magazine horoscope (I dont believe in them really but I thought of your post when I read it)
‘If you now doubt your own potential to make positive progress, you will reduce the value of a real opportunity. Conversely, if you set out to convince yourself that success is possible… you’ll make it much more likely.’
You said – When I look at the house, I see myself. It needs a LOT of work, but it is still structurally sound. It’s not too late … if only someone could see its potential. lovely metaphor. and I guess the person is you.(us, all of us).
I really hope that you get the house, but even if you dont, hang on to that glimmer of hope for yourself ( there may be another way of doing something similar if this ‘falls through’ the thought, the dream is ‘out there’ now and you can keep moving towards it even if its not the route you planned)… that forward thinking and momentum will help you (us, all of us) eventually leave our traumas behind and heal.
xxx
(I hope this, doesnt sound to hokey ‘power of positive thinking’ – but positive thinking does help doesnt it?!)
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 7:21am
blueskies says:
Midlife’s advice about getting the ball rolling is great. When I was reading I was thinking – I wonder if there are voluntary organisations in your area or a community skill exchange network – where you give your expertise in one area (say drywalling) to help someone in exchange for them helping you(like roofing).
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 7:45am
Matt says:
TooLate-
After the S-ex my policy is no more remodelling projects — at least of the human variety.
Seriously, I hope you can find the 5K to buy this house. When I bought my current apartment in NYC about 8 years ago I had just come off a bad divorce, had no settlement and lots of debt because my ex refused to sign the property settlement agreement and my life was up in the air. I somehow came up with the downpayment and bought the true “Nightmare on Elm Street”. I pretty much spent the next 2 years living in a construction zone and did everything myself. Today I have a beautiful apartment. It kills me that I may have to sell it to take a job transfer.
But, the apartment helped me rebuild my life while I rebuilt it. So, at the end of the day it was a great deal all in all.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 9:49am
midlifecrisis says:
Sometimes there are organisations for older people to share their expertise – there is one in Britain I think called Supergrans or you could contact Lions or Rotary and offer a swap – you’ll give a talk about sociopathy in exchange for their members donating some time and man and womanpower
Lots of options – when you get the house you will have a whole folder of ideas and it doesn’t have to cost a fortune ,,, you might even have a green dollar exchange – you bake a cake in exchange for someone fixing a window!
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:51am
Cat says:
Kathleen,
I think as I go through the grief process, I agree with you that the anger is exploding and the one thing I do NOT want to do is allow him to see it. We still have a son together and I know he questions my son about what I’m doing, etc.. I told my son, no more. Tell him I’m doing just fine and my son gets that.
As I go through this process, I am finding that each bad day I have, or sometimes bad weeks, is taking me to a place where I find a new part of me. Letting go of the past means reconciling myself to the fact that all that has been lost is gone. I agree with you, YES, he still owes me and he will always owe me. I’m for the $50K and the jewelry! The more that I take inventory of what has been taken, or coming across something else that is gone, brings on that anger and yet it brings to me a strong urge to rebuild my life and myself bigger and better than ever. I don’t think I WANT to be the person I was before. That person was naive and gullible.
It will take some time, but in the meantime I have other things that strengthen my resolve NOT to let him back in. The “smartest man in the world-NOT” did a 4th step as he is in and out of 12 step programs. He left it behind. I found it. I open that and read it when I need a reminder of what he really is and will always be. Now, I am sure this is only a small portion of what he’s done and I know he only did this step because he was sucking up to his sponsor, whom he ALSO stole from. The day will come when I don’t read this but right now, it’s a good reminder of WHY he can never come back in.
When I REALLY look at my anger, a large part is at myself. I saw it I knew it, I didn’t stop it before all was lost. I listened to others who had bought into his story, even though they were seeing what he was doing. There is anger there as well. I TOLD them what he was. Now, they believe me. He ripped them off for thousands in jewels, the very people who bailed his ass out of jail. I listened to him and to others and disregarded what was in my gut. That’s one I’ll be dealing with for awhile.
I know that healing is like peeling an onion. There are layers and layers and I’m somewhere in that onion. Even as I write this, I am DOING it. I’m getting through each day and doing what has to be done. I have a sign next to my bed:
“You can begin your life all over again on any given day, at any given hour.” I like that!
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 12:17pm
Cat says:
learnthelesson,
Thank you so much for your healing words! It helps to know we aren’t alone and thank God for LF.
Yes, some days are just sucky. I have actually given myself permission a time or two to just sleep. Whatever is piled up around me is going nowhere. I have days where I do what is absolute required, since I have a child and then I take VERY long naps. Sleep isn’t where I hide. I’m finding it to be a necessary tool because the recovery process takes a LOT of energy!
I trust that life will get better. I trust that there will come a day when I don’t walk around with these emotions flaring up, seemingly out of nowhere. I trust that if I work on ME, I will be a different person, a newer, better version. Even when we know that, we still get days when we lose sight of the end of that tunnel. I was there yesterday. Today is much better and yet, I’m going to take a long nap right now. And just rest my body, soul and mind.
Hugs to you!
Cat
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 12:25pm
witsend says:
ToLate,
wow, this is a really good dream. And there are so many positives. The memories of when it was your great grandparents house. Your sister and her family moving in a house close by. The FACT that you CAN do the remodeling by yourself, because you know what you are doing. That is awesome.
Not to mention that when you are working on your “own” house and seeing results in the hard labor involved….There is no better satisfaction, then looking at that end result.
Although it can be overwhelming at times, doing an entire house, if you can manage to do one room (your bedroom maybe) and have a “nice” place to lay your head at night…That helps.
I hope this house is meant to be for you. It certainly sounds like something to pursue. Maybe it would be worthwhile to pay for someone to inspect it. Just so you know for sure that the foundation and all of the structural elements are good. Because it sounds like you have all the rest covered.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 12:49pm
witsend says:
Matt,
How are you… I missed somewhere where you must have posted about a job offer! How exciting. Is it somewhere that you would have to relocate? Are you considering?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 12:57pm
Matt says:
witsend:
No offer yet — am going in for the final meeting on Wednesday, but things look really, really hopeful. I am scared to death. It would be a great job, but I would have to relocate — let’s add a little more stress, I say. Hope to have good news to report soon.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 6:39pm
witsend says:
Matt,
Well I will be thinking of you on Wednesday and sending positive vibes your way…Good Luck!
Change is always hard. But it is also what opens new chapters in our lives.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:45pm
Rosie says:
Toolate
I’m so sorry that this man has manipulated your daughter at such a tender young age. Your love for your children sounds so strong.
I don’t know if I had PTSD but I was very depressed inlcuding feeling suicidal, bad tempered and sensitive to loud noises and had poor concentration.
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Saturday, 20 February 2010 @ 3:48am
Psyche says:
Hi, I wrote recently on the Valentine’s Day article’s blog, and would appreciate some advice. I can’t tell if I’ve gone off the deep end, or if I’ve attracted another abuser.
I went out on Valentine’s Day with someone, and had a great time. Since then, something came up and I had to set some boundaries. The thing is, when I told him what was on my mind, all he did was attack me for being ’sensitive’, for ‘misunderstanding’, for ‘freaking out’. What gets me, is that he completely ignored what I was actually saying, dodging the precise things that I had to bring up. And I stuck to the issues, and didn’t make a personal attack of anything. He simply refused to acknowledge what I said, tried to make my comments about anything other than what I was saying the were about, and finally, when I forced him to see what I was saying, he claimed he was ‘only joking’ when he said it (it was a comment meant to cut me down a notch), and that I was being ‘really sensitive’. Actually, he was the one freaking out, and later tried to buy me off with chocolate and favors, which my friends who have no idea what abusers are like, think I should accept.
When he did say sorry, it was after checking me out physically, (tho. he thought I didn’t notice that), and it seemed entirely forced without regret, but more as if someone had pulled his teeth to make him say it.
I can’t tell anymore. I can’t tell if it’s me, or him. But I do know he’s full of favors for everyone, to an extreme, which makes me suspicious too! Always giving people nice stuff, good or bad sign?!
Bottom line -what I can’t figure out is how to tell if I’ve attracted yet another abuser, or if most men really can’t admit when they’re wrong, and have to use offense as their defense, even when it means throwing the person they’re supposed to be courting under the proverbial bus.
I can’t tell what’s normal. How much BS do normal women have to put up with from the male ego in their relationships?! All I know is that I want to run, fast, and get this guy away from me, and my friends are telling me how sweet he is, and to give him a chance.
Psyche
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:06pm
duped says:
RUN!!! And don’t look back, Psyche!!! Trust your gut and it clearly is telling you this guy ain’t right! Keep fishing…
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:15pm
knowledgeempowers says:
Psyche I did respond on the other thread, here it is again;
Dear Psyche,
Regardless if he is a P or not he has already done things that are not sitting well with you. Is that the kind of relationship you really want?
If he is a P you KNOW you dont want a relationship with one of them.
I say keep looking, I think when you find a truely good man you will know it and there will be NO second guessing.
The fact he attacked you when you were only stating your feelings is a huge red flag, P or not and the “only joking” line, heard it a million times from my xP, along with the cutting down a notch.
A “GOOD” man, the kind of man we really DO want a relationship with will not do these sorts of things. Yes, all ppl make mistakes but I think there are too many red flags here for your own comfort level. And, if he is a P, its not surprising all your friends think hes wonderful, generally everyone else finds the P so great meanwhile they dont know what lurks beneathe the surface.
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:18pm
kim frederick says:
I think you should run….
He started by trying to cut you down, discounted your feelings, turned the whole thing around on you by implying there was something wrong with you, tried to play it off with, “I was only joking”, and then did the eye drop down your body, as if to say…”I’ll tell you what you want to hear, if I can get a peice of that”. JMHO….
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:23pm
Psyche says:
Thanks you guys for responding so fast. I agree with you. I see the signs, just like you do. But then again, you only see what I’m saying. maybe I’m so screwed up in the head from about 40 years of abuse, that I don’t know what’s normal, and I see things as abnormal. That’s what’s getting to me.
I asked people who never had a run-in with an SP if their male partners are able to say sorry, or at least talk about stuff without attacking as a form of defense. They all said that men can never say that they’re wrong. The laughed at my comments, as if I thought men would just up and say ’sorry’, when they need to say it.
But yes, he did try to knock me down a notch, and whenever he talks about why things have gone wrong in his past, it’s always why other people were wrong.
I am going to throw this fish back, but I’m not convinced that I’m not crazy too. Am thinking of changing my screen name to psycho, instead of psyche, because I’m so #$%% confused.
Thanks again, I really appreciate your input.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 7:48pm
ErinBrock says:
Uh….sounds like a guy I woulda married…….LIKE 28 years ago!!!!!
(That’s NOT a good thing)
” but I’m not convinced that I’m not crazy too. Am thinking of changing my screen name to psycho, instead of psyche, because I’m so #$%% confused.”
Mission accomplished…..
Keep you ‘off balance’….exactly where your at TODAY!!!
Oh….it don’t get better girlfriend!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 8:00pm
knowledgeempowers says:
Psyche, A good man, worth having would appologize weather he felt guilty about it or not! That is the big difference! In 18 months, I dont think my xP ever said a heartfelt sorry.
The fact that things in his past are always someone elses fault, omg, biggest red flag EVER! Out of all the things you have said, that one really does not set well with me.
No, I do NOT think you are confused, really, you have seen this guy for what he is and you are paying attention to your intuition! WAY TO GO! That is NOT Confusion! If you have been involved with a P in the past, it only shows great clarity and acknowledgement of the fact that the potential of another sicko to enter your life is very low now!
Stand by it Psyche, you will find better men who do not trigger these doubts in you!!
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Tuesday, 9 March 2010 @ 9:31pm
alicia says:
Dr. Leedom, I printed this article after I read it and I’m going to read it over and over again. You answered many of my questions just by reading it. I thought I was losing my mind, hearing voices and getting scared because I have a sister who hears voices, didn’t for 25 years, and now lives in a nursing home, and for some reason, they “can’t help her” and told her “she will always hear them.” I’m not sure if I believe that. As far as myself, I was getting so scared because so many times I can hear the SP I was involved with call my name, say “Hey _____” and it sounds as though he is in the very same room with me. Sometimes, I could swear I hear him right outside my bedroom window talking to me or talking to his SP friend out there (all of this happened in the past) or hearing him out there as loud and clear as I used to say threatening words to me as he did in the past. He does knock on my door occasionally – still – and I’ve been out of the relationship for good this time (I made it through one whole year and two months without going back) – the longest, and it has NOT been easy at all – because we live 7 buildings away and we run into each other at times. Although we are not involved, I still get very angry at times, sometimes I laugh to myself, sometimes I thank God, sometimes I get very jealous when I see his latest victim who he was seeing at the same time as me (they’ve been together for longer than we’ve been apart. I have all kinds of emotions and most of them, I hate, and then I hate myself for ever getting involved with him, but moreso because I took him back sooooooooo many times and did sooooooooooo many good things for him and fell in love with the “nice” person, if there ever was, etc…
But lately, even after all this time, I am starting to have insomnia again, everytime I hear a noise outside, I think it is him or he is looking in my windows or stalking me again, hiding, coming to my door and checking to see if it is locked or not, some of the things he used to do. I feel like he was when he was OBSESSED with me and it scared me so much because he physically abused me too. This guy could be home in his apt., in bed with his girlfriend or not, out with his friends…anywhere…not even home or in the vicinity, but I STILL think he is outside stalking me or he is thinking about me and still wants me…and the sad and most disgusting part of all of this is that lately, I’ve been dreaming about him almost every single night, and in my dreams, he is either verbally, mentally or emotionally abusing me or he is so sweet and kind and kissing and holding me. I’ve been tempted so much lateley to call him, to send him a note, to even ask me if he ever misses me, but then I have to talk myself out of it, and I get angry. I think it is because I am so used to going back to him or calling him every single time the lonliness got so bad and I missed him so much (without one single thought of anything he ever did bad). I think I just wanted him to be in the same room with me, joking, having fun like we used to, and because I do NOT like to sleep alone or even go to bed, I miss him. I think I just miss a body next to me to put my head on his chest and have his strong arm around me, and I felt loved. Do you think it is because I am so used to doing that for 5-6 years, and now that I can’t because he does have a girlfriend, I get angry at him, her and myself for even wanting him. I should thank God she came along because I probably would still be with him. He has never stopped bothering me, but he usually does it when they have a fight or she leaves him, not every day or even every week. I have to admit that sometimes I miss him and when he doesn’t, I feel sad. I was doing so good, wanting to change and recover, and so many, many people here help me, and so do the articles. Why am I reverting back to all of this and why do I want him to bother me and call me like he used to and harass me, why do I want him to knock on my door or leave me roses again, and notes and poems telling me he loves me. I know all about him and that he is a sociopath, and I was doing a lot better, why do I have insomnia again, I don’t want to go to bed, I stay up sometimes all night long, and I constantly hear his voice in my head either inside my apt or outside. I feel as though I am losing my mind and it scares me. Your article helped me a lot and I will read it a lot, but what I want to know is why am I wanting him again and why all of those initial sx on your list are happening to me again after a long time??? I have to admit that I did call him a couple of times and he called the police on me. I remember the days he would call me minute after minute after minute, and I would unplug my phone or pull the cord out, but I never called the police…I should have. Everything he did in the past to harass me, if I do it or did it now, he would call the police. He is so cruel to me. He told her that he absolutely never ever went out with me, that “I am the crazy, stalker, jealous, looney, psychotic woman who has been after him since I moved there.” I think she still believes him, I don’t know, and I don’t care. But how could he lie like that, deny he ever “loved” me, knew me, etc…I don’t want to be associated with ever going out with him, but for somebody who was after me and “cryed” and begged me not to leave him, DAYS before he brought her out in the open and dropped me flat, how could he do that to me, lie about me, and yet, he still bothers me from time to time. I feel as if he builds me up and then he lets me down, just as he did before. Is he manipulating me to provoke me to anger or to call him or to lose my mind…I don’t know…I do know is that I have feelings for him again and I don’t want them, not one of them. In the past, I would falll for his stupid lies, go back, and then two days later hate myself and want out, and then the harassment and abuse would get worse and I would sometimes go back because it was easier. I don’t know. Is PTSD something that happens and then goes away and then comes back again? Or is it because we live so close and each time I see him, the symptoms seem to start all over again. I actually feel jealous and sad that he isn’t pursuing me anymore. At times, I feel this way, but lately, something is going on, and I don’t like it. Could you please give me some advice about PTSD and if this is what I’m going through, am I truly crazy. I am actively looking for a therapist who deals with PTSD. I have two referrals. And, I will be moving to NC where one of my sisters lives, her and her family, but I have to wait until I’m financially able to. In the meantime, I have something to look forward to, but the feelings are so strong again for this nutcase, and I feel SICK to my stomach about it and I DON’T WANT TO START HATING MYSELF AGAIN, ISOLATING, AND GOING BACKWARDS INSTEAD OF FORWARDS. A couple of positive, good things have happened in my life lately to help me to recover and move on, and I was so happy, and then not even a week later, this started all over again. Sorry this is so long. I am going to read all of your articles. Thank you so much, and thanks to all. God Bless.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 6:00pm
sherry winter says:
“Above all, stop the ongoing trauma by ending contact with the sociopath. ”
Today I went to talk to my employer. I have been away from work on a rotational position. It was created to “get me out” off the office where my X-S worked and was in a position over me.
Now after over a year and a half, and after a dozen interviews to try and get a different job, I am having to go back to the environment that broke me, and left my life in ruin.
I was told I was not allowed to even call him MY EX because it would cause too many questions. I was told even though someone else would be giving me my work “for now” that eventually I would be expected to have to work with the SOB like the professional person they knew I was. That is I really wanted to GET WELL from the PTSD, I would make working with him my goal.
What ever, I don’t trust any one in that whole friggin building any more…. guilt by association, and as far as I am concerned, they are sending me back to the he11 I had escaped from. I wont and can’t quit my job with the bills, and the economy the way it is… and if I’m going down, every one in that building can go down with me.
Angy? You betcha. It beats blaming myself for being a victim to someone that my workplace put me directly under. BTW, they talk and talk about how professional he is. ONLY to those he HAS to be that way to. To those who have been his victim, he was anything BUT professional.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 6:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sherry,
I hear your frustration, your anger, your anxiety! (repeat x 1000) I wish I had a “solution” for you. I’ve been in situations where I worked for a psychopath and I couldn’t at the time see how I could SEE IT and the administration couldn’t.
I didn’t have an answer then, I don’t have an answer now. I wish I did.
If you MUST stay in that job, some how, some way, you have got to take control of YOUR REACTION to being close to him. I don’t know the answer on HOW to do so, and all I can suggest is that you see a counselor or therapist to help you cope with this IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION.
Witsend, who is here with a situation about like yours, only with her son who is 17 coming back to live in her house. She is AFRAID of him, and SHE sees how he threatens her but the law, the school, child services etc. won’t help her! She called it the VALLEY OF CLOSED DOORS.
I thought that term was pretty descriptive and it seems that you are in the same VALLEY.
While I realize you are feeling frustrated, in order to function, we can’t change them but we must change our reaction to them. FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE WHAT WE CAN’T CHANGE.
God bless, Sherry. ((((Hugs))))
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 6:31pm
kim frederick says:
Dear Alicia, I am not Dr. Leedom, and I don’t really know much about PTSD, but I thought I would answer your post, and share with you some of my experience, strenght, and hope.
I found that, in my last relationship, a totally disfunctional 7 year long, roller-coaster ride; complete with the on- again off-again dynamic, the repeated abandonment and heart-break, the hope and “JOY” of getting back together, the continued dissappointment, and dispair, the hopelessness, the absolute misery, and yet the “YEARNING”….the only way I could deal with it, recover from it was to treat it as an addiction.
It is not at all unusual for you to be re-experiencing your desire for him, at this time.
The little addict in your head is rising up against that part of you that wants to be healthy. Your addiction is throwing you back in denial. You are still hoping and wishing by letting yourself imagine any kind of relief by being with him.
I understand perfectly, the ambivalence you are feeling. You can’t understand why you feel sad when he leaves you alone. You can’t understand why you could possibly want him to stalk you. I felt that way, too. What confused me the most was I knew I didn’t want him, had been through the whole stalking thing before (many times) had given in and taken him back, knew it never worked….really WANTED him to leave me alone…but I still felt sad.
I think it was because it was my denial finally dying an agonizing death. I COULD NOT HAVE WHAT I WANTED.
And boy oh boy, did that ever suck.
Being lonely, and not having a support system is the worst thing you can do to yourself. You NEED TO FORCE YOURSELF to get out and folow through with the positive steps you’ve taken. Going to live near your sister is a wonderful plan, but, you need support, until then.
I used to lie in bed at night, and recite the first three steps, (of the twelve steps of AA) as if it were a prayer. I would say:
God, I am powerless over ###, I am powerless over my feelings for, ###, and my life is unmanagable. I believe you, God, can restore me to sanity. I surrender my will and my life over to you, as I understand you….
Over time my heart healed. And I’m happier than I’ve been in a long time.
I’m not calling you an addict, I just know you are hurting and confused and asking for help. This is my experience.
Please follow through with your DV counseling, and find a way to get to church with your lady freinds…You need friends, and an envirnment that is focused on health and well-being.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 7:30pm
hens says:
Kim That is a very good post to Alicia. Your insight about addiction is so right on. But they manipulated that addiction. It was similar to meth, and I have never seen a meth pill or pipe or whatever but it takes over your life and most meth users dont recover and most die from what I have read. And we survived that addiction to the drug called twilight zone. And speakin for myself I will never be the same person – thank goodness…
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 8:03pm
kim frederick says:
Hens, there are so many positives about 12 step programs…. they are free, everybody in the room identifys, they keep you focused on recovery, they help you identify how you set yourself up or contributed to the problem, they help you get through anger, they help you find faith, they keep you focused on the solution… they encourage you and give you a phylosophy to live by…and the best thing is it’s so simple.
And it works. It changes lives.
I just need to go back.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 8:33pm
hens says:
Kim I agree – a friend gave me some alanon books when I was freshly devalued and discarded – they did help – she goes because her daughter was an alcoholic and says it was the best thing she ever did and she continues to go and her daughter has been sober for 2 years now…you had such a positive experience you should go again who knows you may meet somebody ..
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 8:46pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
….noooo, don’t pick up people in meetings. bad BAD idea.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 8:49pm
hens says:
onestep does that mean if we ever have a LF meeting I cant hit on you?
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:04pm
OxDrover says:
You know, the name of this article, “Will I ever be the same again?” GOD, I HOPE NOT!!!!!
Henry, NO! You cannot hit on her, you and I are “engaged,” remember? Gosh, you guys are SOOO fickle!
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:17pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hens – you can hit on me all you want….we both know i can be ‘turned.’
the spath proved that.
no wait, the spath wasn’t really a boy! snort!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:20pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
oh crap, now oxy and i have to wrestle for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:20pm
hens says:
now that would be a sight ~! we could sell tickets to that~!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:30pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Oxy would win on metaphors alone, i would gain points by a) tickling her and b) i do have me a few spathy moves.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:32pm
alicia says:
sherry, OxDrover, & Kimfredrick, thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I feel so selfish now. You have terrible situations also and I know IT IS VERY DIFFICULT for you. It’s always comforting for me to know that there are those who care and understand, but it’s also sad when I hear about other’s because I feel so helpless and I feel your pain and wish I could take it away from you. It is so good that we have LF to pour out our hearts, be heard without judgement, and supported. I’m sorry you’re going through these situations, and I totally understand the frustration when nobody (such as your boss or the police do NOT help at all)! Kim, thank you for sharing your heart with me. You are absolutely correct in all that you say. IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TOO, DEFINITELY. The best is that you are trying so diligently to help yourself recover even though it is not easy, but you are doing it, as you say,one day at a time. You are a positive role model for me, and, I’m sure, a lot of others. I AM AN ADDICT TO EVERYTHING!!! I am a recovering alcoholic, but I still drink occasionally, especially when that nutcase does something to bother me or I hear that he talked about me (lied about me). Sometimes, I take more anti-anxiety meds, go to bed, pull the covers over my head and sleep. After he hurt me BIG TIME (the Final hurt-I hope) a little over a year ago, I did not sleep, I stayed up all night, and I USED FOOD TO TRY TO EASE THE PAIN. I stopped drinking because I KNEW if I did drink, I would probably go over there and do something to him that would land me in jail or in the psych hospital! I was so hurt and angry, but I knew how I would become rageful if I drank and the temptation was there to hurt him (physically) very badly. The thoughts scared me and so did the anger. I scared myself because I never thought I was capable of having such terrible thoughts and I did NOT like them at all! It was like hearing voices!!! When I became so scared to the max, I cried out to God constantly for help and I would repeat Jesus’ name over and over again and I would take one scripture I learned from the Bible a long time ago: “God has NOT given me a spirit of fear, but of Power, Love, and of a Sound Mind.” I need to do that now because I still get angry at him because he still won’t quit! I HAVE ALWAYS HAD AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY and I have always found it so difficult to let go of the hurt, as I still do and I CONSTANTLY ruminate about him and her, and what he did, rehash over and over again, and I HATE IT!!! I should be doing what I did then, cry out to God, instead of going to bed and not coming out for days each time he stalks me or lies about me or slanders me, etc…I WISH I COULD LET IT GO, BUT AS SHERRY AND OXDROVER SAID, AND WHAT YOU WENT TO ALSO, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO WHEN YOU ARE NEAR OR CLOSE BY OR WHEN YOU STILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM AND BE NEAR THEM, VERY DIFFICULT AND FRUSTRATING!!! As far as wanting and longing for him to come back, that changed about two days later when one of my elderly neighbors told me what the SP said to him a couple of months ago about me. This is the same elderly man he threatened a couple of years ago when this very nice gentleman got out of his car on the way to his apartment. The MONSTER saw my neighbor drop me off. I had been at the grocery store, ran into my neighbor, and he asked me if I would like a ride home, and I was so happy to get a ride home because it was freezing cold with a lot of snow on the ground. It was a blessing! I was NOT even with the SP at the time. It was one of those periods when I used my brain instead of my stupid emotions. He was with his scumbag brother (who, by the way, enjoys beating and slicing his girlfriends) and he and I were NOT together. My neighbor gets out of his car and the SP (stalker) that he is must have seen him drop me off. He went over to my neighbor and said: “STAY AWAY FROM HER, SHE’S MINE.” When I found that out, I was FURIOUS!!! My neighbor actaually thought we were in a relationship and he apologized to me. He also told me that he said to the monster, “I ONLY GAVE HER A RIDE HOME.” What a disgusting person to threaten an elderly man and threaten him and POSSESS me the way he did when he was living with and doing all he was doing with those prostitutes. This time, SP went over to him and asked him if he had a girlfriend. My neighbor asked SP why he wanted to know. SO SP SAYS TO HIM, “DO YOU WANT ____ (me)? and my neighbor told him NO. Then SP said to him (this is the best) “YOU CAN HAVE HER IF YOU WANT BECAUSE I BROKE UP WITH HER.” OK!!! Again, I wanted to march right over there and choke him and kick his girlfriend’s a___ too (who is a lot like him). Who does he think he is, a matchmaker or something and what right does he have to try to fix me up? Could this possibly be GUILT? I DON’T THINK SO BECAUSE SPs FEEL NO GUILT. I DON’T KNOW HIS REASONING, BUT I WISH HE WOULD JUST STAY OUT OF MY PERSONAL LIFE AND LEAVE ME ALONE AND NOT EVEN MENTION MY NAME AT ALL!!! THIS IS THE 2ND MAN HE HAS TRIED TO FIX ME UP WITH SINCE HE LEFT ME, THE OTHER ONE IS A SCUMBAG TOO!!! HOW DARE HE DO THIS TO ME!! I was so angry and I still am. I know that I can’t say anything to him, contact him, go over there, etc. because he will call the police on me as usual so what did I do…I punished myself (as usual) self-sabotaged myself AGAIN and went to the package store and drank for three days straight, which caused all the stomach problems I have to act up and the depression to get worse and the worst, I stayed in the house for a whole week in beautiful weather!!! So that took care of the longing. I ran into him once I decided to come out of the house. I acted like I didn’t even see him and I kept walking, reading my mail, and smiling! There was another day when I was walking home and he yelled out, “hey, look at that beautiful body.” Uggh! I HATE HIM; I KNOW I’M NOT SUPPOSED TO, BUT I DO. I wanted to go after him again, but I didn’t. Today, before I came into the library to use this pc, I ran into his STUPID girlfriend and she gave me looks to kill!!! I still can’t believe she is with him after all she knows about me and so much more, the letters I wrote to her, the cheating she knows he did and is still doing, etc., etc., etc…but I guess she is like me – she overlooks like I did. One good thing she has is a car so she can get away from him. I didn’t have that luxury so every time I left him, the harassment was worse than the abuse at times and I gave in. My emotions are still up and down, I hate him, I’m lonely so I want him, I hate him, etc………..Good thing he has a girlfriend because when I drink and get lonely I would be calling him just like I did for 5-6 years and then he would have the power over me again, I would hate myself again, and he would drop me for her again, and I would be in a worst situation. I cried so much this morning because I am so depressed and lonely. I miss my family and I want to move down south so badly. I am craving love so badly and I just want to be with my family and be hugged and just be near them. I will try to do the 12 steps. I ran into a counselor of mine from the past just last week. She told me to call AA and get a new book. Isn’t that a coindence? I like to believe it is God working in your life and mine. Thank you and keep doing what you’re doing. God sees you taking the steps toward Him for His help and he will take a lot more steps to help you. You are a blessing. Remember: when we are weak, He is strong. He gives strength to the weak. We are all weak, that’s why we need Him, right. He loves you so much. thank you. Keep up the good work on your recovery. I am here for you and so is everyone else. God Bless You.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 5:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Alicia,
I’m glad that you are working on yourself. We can’t help them, or fix them, but we can take care of ourselves.
I’m glad that you believe God is working in your life and I agree with your counselor about calling AA and hopefully getting some support from them as well. Havning someone there for you will be a big benefit.
You can hold on to your power again, and take charge of your own life and feelings! Keep on working the 12 steps! (((hugs)))) and God bless.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 6 April 2010 @ 6:33pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
just lost a big post – library copmputer.
today is horrid.
huritn gphysically, emotionally and very alone.
had a meeting with the job counselor to help me with something i forgot she was really bad at helping with. left feeling like very unhleped and very alone.
i went this am to the food bank and there was little there past beans and lentils. my arthritis is flaring and it hurt to haul them home. someone had suggested this bood ban kbecause they have clothes too,and no intake – but there was hardly any food, so now i have to arrange an intake at the other food bank.
i feel very alone. my computer is offline making the job search so difficult. and cutting emoff from some of my lifelines.
ctying at the library now. i have to go to meet my old boss in a few minutes. wish i had cancelled that earlier. not in any shape to have to be busssinesslike.
if the library is still open after my meeting, i will try to get back online.
best,
one step
if
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 3:53pm
learning says:
Dear One Step,
I hope the library is still open after your meeting. I want to know that you are ok. And I want you to know that you are not alone – we are all here for you.
hugs and hold on…something will give….it will. xoxo
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 4:16pm
silvermoon says:
One,
Be brave, be here.
Let us know you are there.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 4:58pm
Buttons says:
OneStep…..prayers and positive energies are with you. Definitely.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 5:37pm
Buttons says:
I’m feeling more positive, finally. I had a very interesting afteroon with a wonderful lady who had also been victimized by a woman that we both thought we knew. The comparisons of what she was told vs. what I was told was just incredible – I mean, incredible. No wonder the spath worked so hard to develop animosity between us – she never, ever, EVER wanted anyone comparing notes and exposing her.
I hope that all of these outrageous experiences have taught me how to be a more vigilant human being. The saddest surrender that I’ve had to make is my giddy belief in the “goodness” of all mankind. I really hate that all mankind is, indeed, NOT of good heart or goodwill, but I can’t change that. I can only take all of this and apply it to wise choices and trust more to my intuition. Hell, even my DOG knows a bad egg from a good one!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 5:43pm
silvermoon says:
I understand alone differently now. I can’t stay awya from contact- I can come here becasue I am SUCH an extrovert that being all by myself and quiet just really doesn’t work for me. I don’t like it very much – which is not to say I have to make noise all the time, but I enjoy being in company.
In fact, I prefer it.
Its ok to be alone when no one is around sometimes, but right now, its hard because that is when the haunting is most likely to come. Here, is trustworthy.
Outside? Not so much.
Its hard because its early days I tell myself. Only a few weeks – screaming fast weeks where my whole life tiped over and then turn up again like a boat in a big storm that didn’t sink, but went over far enough to be really scary.
Now I bounce from strength to weakness. I find that what is very real about the situation in which I find myself- the Aids test, the therapy, the legal stuff really takes away the illusion.
There is a sadness that lingers, not about the man but about the void that he left behind.
I don’t want to change – move, get a new job,reinvent myself again. Its sooo much. Well, it must be done and in a few steps that energy of putting it all together will lead again.
There is nothing to look for over my shoulder. The real is what it is. There is only NOW.
Now, I will think again how good it is to be among trusted friends and understanding souls. Now, I am here for each of you in the same way and we are together in this body of knowledge and empathy. It is a good and welcome place.
No mater how many times I have cried, I could always find my fingernail grasp of what is real here. And from here venture out again to do what has to be done.
Lentils, I’m there. They give me the WORST farts! Good thing I am alone. But one thing I learned to do when HE was here, was laugh at farts. Silly, but they still, like the childrens story about Walter the dog that used to make my son laugh until he cried as a small child, make me giggle.
Morgan Le Fey, I am thinking of you. I travel to you through the fires of Cornwall because these are the long and hard days. Be strong. It may be true they are far from over, but you are forged of hard material and have much, so much yet to do in the world.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 9:42pm
justus5 says:
Buttons,
What you said about hating not believing all mankind is good. I hate it, I hate too. Oxy said awhile back she killed the Easter Bunny because it was lying chocolate eggs all over her yard. I guess that is what the discovery of these people is, our last fairy tale is killed.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 15 April 2010 @ 11:00pm
Buttons says:
I agree, Justus5 – not only does the fairy tale perish, but I compare it to inviting a vampire into my home. I had my doubts, I had my suspicions, but I invited these people into the home of my soul by my own actions.
Today is a glorious day – we’re all healing, we’re all surviving, and I didn’t wake up to find myself listed in the obituaries. A wonderful day, indeed.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 16 April 2010 @ 7:12am
one_step_at_a_time says:
silver. i sit in the library my eyes rimmed with tears. ty for the beautiful post. i too bounce from strength to weakness. and some days i just sit in the water at my feet, unsure if it is amnioitc fluid, or the water expelled by the dying.
i have another meeting, and if i can will come back after. if not i will find my way here again later this weekend. my computer is still plagued, every day i kick more of the viral tentacles, but it will take awhile to be online again.
i gave in to opiates last night. i do about twice a year. the pain in my body drifted away, and i woke less terroized by the now. i spent the day in a job centre, working on yet another resume. had very good help from a young editor. he is forthright and ballsy, and i felt matched and not alone.
out there is dangerous, and feels even more so than it is. i find this feeling mounting for me. it rises at the oddest times. but just now i spoke with a fellow at the library who had a wonderful cellphone ring of a loon. – i didn’t give talking to him a second thought, but cross the street to move away from others right now. i don’t think these choices are based on intuition or logic – just reactive fear – probably informed by whatwer virus bs is running in my head at the time.
best,
one step
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Friday, 16 April 2010 @ 3:48pm
ErinBrock says:
One…..
XXOO
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Friday, 16 April 2010 @ 3:51pm
OxDrover says:
Dear One-step, hope you are doing better! It IS frustrating when your computer gets sick! I am shaking some turkey feathers and a rattle and blowing—no can’t say I am blowing smoke, cause I quit that! LOL–sending good vibes, toward your sick computer! And to you!!!
((((Hugs)))))))
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 16 April 2010 @ 7:45pm
silvermoon says:
One,
Sleep, be.
We’ll be right here, looking for you.
You will prevail.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 16 April 2010 @ 10:01pm
witsend says:
One Step,
Be gentle with yourself One.
Big hug.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 16 April 2010 @ 10:13pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hello my beauties – thank you for wonderful wishes, and oxy, i got a set of feet you can fix when you are done with my computer!
have about 45 minutes @ the library if the cologne doesn’t get me first.
need some advice – here’s the deal. a new case has been filed last week against the ppath by the mother of all dupes (moad). i spoke with the lawyer and she says that to go ahead and do what i am planning.
now, ’cause i don’t have my computer, it puts a bit of a kibosh in some of it, and i will ask the moad for some help with a couple of things. i trust her, and i know she can do the things that need to be done.
okay.
then next i will reveal the ppath on the website. now, as i now KNOW who the REAL boy is I will not do as planned and put the pics of him and his family up with a warning that if these photos are found on that site or any other site that they have been stollen and contact the site moderator as the might be dealing with the ppath. and of course giving her ip address. so, won’t do this.
the site moderators on the site we were are suck. badddddly. i am thinking about contacting them again and just saying this is who this person really is and if you get this ip – think about blocking her. i cannot expect any results. not sure if i should bother.
next, – and this is the thing i am most concerned about – the REAL boy. he needs to know. i am thinking about calling the AG and asking if he would contact him. i have all the evidence that she used his pics – i don’t have the website screen captured but i have roughly 1000 emails, many with the real boy’s pictures and that of his family and he pretending to be all of them. (@#$%^&*$%^&*^&*)
now here’s my concern – he is challenged. for sure has some depression and has/ has had alcoholism issues, and is ADD and what else he deals with – oh, beisdes being gay in a st8t world, and a working artist. (she keeps picking on the queers. i wish i could punch her in the nose) i don’t know how he is going to take this. i worry about how he will respond – if he will be okay, and as my own safety is number one, i am concerned about him flipping out on the ppath AND outing me as his source of info. i need to put togehter an action plan to suggest to him, no?
he makes his living selling his art on the net. the ppath has actually bought things from him (twisted!@#$%^& @#$%^ that she is) and he has had some amount of contact withher in her TRUE form, and i am not sure, but we can suspect in her sock puppet form also. she has stolen most of his photos from his art website – the ramifications here are that this will affect his livlihood. (one step shakes her head and mutters, ‘make god strike he down’.)
what do i need to tell him about how to proect himself? how do i protect myself? If she was still active ont eh site i’d just send him there – but she is not active using his pics anymore.
some ideas mis amigas (y amigos hens y matt) por favor!
have to find a computer tomorrow – the library is closed. hick town.
XXXXX one step
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Saturday, 17 April 2010 @ 3:22pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
innapropriate banner uptop – ‘textdating.ca’ – ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!
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Saturday, 17 April 2010 @ 3:28pm
OxDrover says:
Dear One-step,
Since apparently HE is the one in theory “damaged the most,” with his photo used without his permission etc. I think he does need to know. How you inform him, I am not sure. I would not “assume” he will be more damaged by knowing than by NOT knowing.
Did this s-pathole try to get money out of all these games or just “fun” from all these lies and pretending to be MPD and so on? So, is there a CRIMINAL fraud that could be prosecuted?
Sending you TWO BRAND NEW BIONIC FEET, put them on and you can leap tall buildings with a single bound! Dance like the wind! Never any more pain of any kind! Perfect BIONIC FEET! Enjoy! (((hugs)))
Ps BTW even with all the problems and the crap going on, you are actually sounding “sane”—congratulations! Love Oxy
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Saturday, 17 April 2010 @ 4:33pm
ErinBrock says:
One:
My mind is not untwisted enough to offer advice….
But, I do think he needs to know….since he too is a victim.
Does he have any way to contact her? Will he know her?
I guess if she was a customer, he’d have a way of finding out….
I think he may not care….maybe feel violated, but not with the passion you have…..DON”T expect it.
The best thing to do is to sit back, unwind…..and let the thoughts flow…..if you push things….you will not succeed…..you must be sure of each move you make….and IT WILL come to you…..give it some more thought…..
Your garden sounds wonderful…..fresh vegies….yum!
Maybe go sit out by that tree in that field and just ‘be’….and see what enters you mind.
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 17 April 2010 @ 6:20pm
pollyannanomore says:
One Step – I am so sorry you are going through all this right now after all the crap you had with the spath – life seems so unfair for you at the moment. I hope you get a great contract that you can manage and kick some ass on and then another follows from it.
You’ve been so brave and strong and such a consolation to all the broken hearted people coming here for such a long time. You’re a wonderful person and surely your luck has to turn very soon – you put more than enough good stuff in to get some good stuff back from the universe.
I will be thinking of you on my side of the world
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Sunday, 18 April 2010 @ 2:22am
Buttons says:
Onestep, I agree with EB on this. Like Pollyannanormore, and everyone else, I am so sorry that you’re experiencing this. But, I think that all things happen for A Reason, and I’ll get to the point of that with regard to your computer being down, etc.
First of all, you are not expected to be responsible for protecting anyone other than yourself, other than children who don’t have the options, themselves. You cannot “save” the artist from being used, abused, taken advantage of, etc. Proactively warning someone or alerting someone can often backfire to disastrous results – it makes us look like lunatics if we start speaking these unbelievable truths because they are, in essence, simply too fantastic to possibly be true, as you know from your personal experiences.
When we “out” a spath, it has to be under very carefully controlled conditions. Unless we are “qualified” through formal education with a degree, etc., naming someone as spath/ppath can be very, very dangerous unless they’ve been assessed and diagnosed by a licensed practitioner. The desire to “warn” everyone and make sure the spath knows that WE know what they are can become so overwhelmingly urgent to us that we place ourselves and our healing in jeopardy by acting on a desire for vengeance.
“Fits the PROFILE” is the closest thing that any of us (unless we meet the professional criteria) is legally “allowed” to say that comes near the truth. Certainly, our own experiences have given us practical/academic education on spath and their behaviors – so much so that WE should be considered the “Experts” in the field. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that, damitol.
Onestep, whatever course of action you choose to take, I know that you’ll consider every option before acting on an impulse or a primal urge. {{{hugs}}}
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Sunday, 18 April 2010 @ 8:05am
silvermoon says:
One,
Its a dark day even though the sun is shining bacause I am coming to some conclusions I don’t like very much.
I think the truth is about SPATH’s that no matter how much damage they have done to their victims, there isn’t much to be done. Unless there is a case good enough to hand to an enforcement agency.
That means, if the violation to you didn’t break laws that the AG not only has to enforce but is inclined to enforce, the burden and expense is on the victim.
Identity theft is a serious issue. If you have enough to prove it, that’s nice, but the deal is that in a case like that if all the sapth did was steal hearts, the case isn’t sufficient to get attention. It has to be measurable in money and the amounts big enough to get attention are HUGE.
What MUST be done is that you have to get employment so that you can take care of yourself. Nothing else is critical before that gets done because that solved a multitude of other problems.
They may be real, but they HAVE to wait. You have ONE thing on your agenda. Everything else has to wait while you put yourself in a postion to survive.
Having a plan to execute about the SPATH is good, but it has to be put on hold unless its big enough for an AG to prosecute without your time or money.
I don’t think anybody likes this reality, but it is bottom line. No body feels so sorry for any of us that they are going to be motivated to stick their necks out professionally unless we pay and pay a fairly lot too.
The sad but awful truth is the world doesn’t see us as victims, it see us as the idiots who let ourselves get involved with bad people. And no one wants to get involved with us or with the bad people unless it has a return on their investment of time or service.
That is true for public officials, care providers, lawyers and even family and friends- per description here many of whom are every bit as evil as the fraudulent love relationship.
So win, draw or lose, we have to suck it up and get financially stable, emotionally sound and practically organized in our own lives before we have the luxury of doing anything about the SPATH and it doesn’t matter how moraaly correct we may be in trying to do it.
The world doesn’t care about the distress and groceries, rent and electricity come first. Once you are ready to step up the pyramid, then there is a base from which to pursue any of it. But until you are on your feet, the SPATH and the distress are a luxury.
Doesn’t feel good to me either. My situation has much in common, but the way the world really is is the way the world really is. And the more I allow myself to wade in the waters of self pity the more erosive the tides of it become. The time isn’t there to deal with the spath. It has to come after everything else is right sided.
Health problems in your case are a nightmareish complication. The solution to those is going to be concurrent with surviving and when there is no money and nothing to lose, maybe all you can do is go to ER’s where they can’t turn you down over and over and over again.
PSTD is debilitating and trying to move ahead under incredible severity of it is a struggle like nop one who hasn’t been there and done that can imagine. Its up to the will to survive to go out in the world and do what has to be done against all odds.
The Spath underestimated you and so far the world has too. It may be too soon for you to see it in the rear view mirror but that day will come. There are a few days which must need proceed that one is all.
I see you doing this. I see you moving ahead because you have to.
I see it is hard and you are doing it anyway. The injustice of the whole thing is staggering, but we can’t fix it all in one step. Only by One Step at a Time.
My heart to yours.
I’m here.
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Sunday, 18 April 2010 @ 10:50am
one_step_at_a_time says:
silver – HI! man, i am happy to get to the library today!
there was no access yesterday – and i have to admit, it was good to be away from the computer, but am so happy to be back to lf today.
so, just came back from welfare. some help there. and that is enormously uplifting. so, another month of not tanking! and i can get to the dentist and get my eyes checked. hurray for me!
and then today – an old friend sent me $50 in the mail. that’s another medication covered (that isn’t covered by wlefare or medical coverage or through a compassionate care program thorugh a pharma company – just a note here: if anyone takes meds that aren’t covered contact the pharma company directly and ask about their programs. I have a $100 month med covered this way.)
still in pain – joints and muscles, but the toxic load has gone way down – even with the trees budding.
I feel like a ping pong ball – from daaaaarrrk to light. I actually feel quite light hearted right now. haven’t been in close proximity to that feeling in a looooong while.
i hear the depth of the rattle and shake to your world silver, as the reverb pools out into words. there is something unholy about these people and what they do – and they take us to that place of fractured self. in the last week, it has come so clear, i want the ppath gone. gone – out damn spot. such a simple word: gone. full of action to implemented and compassion and time.
there are very separate things going on in regard to the spath:
1. outing her anonymously to the community on the website where we met. she is still using some of those people as supply.
2. i will never go after her legally – i have no case, she stoel nothing material from me. and emo rape is not on the books. i am only of the ‘idiots’
3. the AG’s office has a file on her. they are collecting information and evidence about her. the AG attorney was the first person i spoke to who completely and utterly ‘got it’, and mirrored back how repulsive and reprehensible the ppath’s actions are. and yes, there is nothing he can do YET.
4. the real boy – the ppath used his identiy and that of his friends and family and i can prove that. what that means legally i don’t know. i need to talk to the AG. i want to put somethign togehter for the real boy – a course of action, to hopefully guide his actions, so that he doesn’t land my butt in trouble by outing me to the ppath.
and yes, the ppath DID underestimate me. and i want very much to let go of the desire to have that mean my getting revenge. i want her gone.
and if i am ever strong enough and have enough resources of other kinds – i may decide to find ways of tripping her up further. but for right now, i want to take care of myself so much more than i want to twist and turn about her.
doesn’t mean it doesn’t rise and it doesn’t mean i am not hiding under a rock and waiting. i don’t know how many years of my life this may encompass. right now i want to take care of myself. not ‘have to’, that’s a given, but ‘want to’.
i am so thankful for the warmer weather and the systems and people, and my own dear heart that support me.
on the bus today – after being approved for a welfare chack for tomorrow, i gave my only cash (living on cc) to a young pregnant woman for bus fare. counting out those quarters was a pretty moving experience for me. to have little and give, filled my heart.
okay, going to go read some posts.
love
one step
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 1:22pm
Buttons says:
{{{{{Onestep}}}}} I’m so glad that you’ve had some positive experiences – they always seem to occur when we are in our deepest, darkest moments.
In my case with the ex, I made a couple of attempts to “out” him to the Family Courts, as well as one woman that he used, and each attempt backfired to make me look like a nut. In retrospect, I MUST have looked like a spinning wingnut because I was so dammed adamant that these people/persons/entities listen to me. Well, they didn’t, they wouldn’t, and that was that.
So, last year, the ex dropped dead at 50 of a massive coronary. I had so many conflicting emotions – relief, sorrow, rage, pity, etc. The one thing that I really allowed to become a focus was the fact that I never “got to tell him” what, precisely, he had done to me, our children, and my family. Well, well, well…..it took me just about a year to realize that it wouldn’t have mattered if I had ever confronted him or ratted him out. As far as he was concerned, he was above the Law, above society, and above God Almighty.
I still can’t say how I feel about his passing, today. But, I think that all of this trauma that is perpetrated by spaths will be dealt with either in this lifetime, or the next. I am not privilged to be judge and/or jury, and that was probably the biggest catalyst for my anger. Once I accepted that, my anger began to diminish and become more managable.
Of course, I stil lhave my moments, but they aren’t anything like they used to be. Blessings!!!!
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 1:45pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
buttons – thankyou for your lovely posts.
‘I am not privilged to be judge and/or jury, and that was probably the biggest catalyst for my anger.’ this statement may well help me.
my situation is a bit different – i am not trying to out the ppath as sociopath (but thank you for the phrase, ‘fits the profile’.) I am outing her AS NOT THE HALF DOZEN SOCKPUPPETS she pretends to be online. i have a good number of links that i can provide for people – anyone who was involved with her will know from the info in those blogs/ on those websites/ in a couple of daily and weekly newspapers is about her – and that she has been pretending to be people she isn’t.
best,
One step
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 1:52pm
Buttons says:
Onestep, if there is a criminal basis for it, then there might be some consequences. Even when spaths commit criminal acts, and there’s a smoking gun and a wheelbarrowful of hard evidence, they often seem to worm their way out of their accountabililty. Just use caution, Onestep – protect yourself, first. Blessings!
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 2:00pm
silvermoon says:
One,
I am so happy to see you here and to learn of your happy state of mind. Yes, it is good to helpothers and I do believe it all comes back to us, but we may not count on how or when.
Spent the weekend at my 35 year HS reunion and was filled myself with the joy of finding the old me and the new me reconciled in those faces and the memories of that place.
I am so very fortunate to still have connection to those women and find some resources there of merit.
Good to see you online.
Can you write grants for non profits? I might have a lead for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 2:04pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
silver – yay for you! how healing to stand in your entirty.
computer still down – a few more days. but it’s okay. i just don’t get to play with y’all at night.
it’s actually helping my PTSD. it’s making it easier to focus. A Reason.
yes, i can write grants for non profits. now, i don’t live in the US of A, so the rules/regs and trends are different, but that isn’t insurmountable.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 2:09pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
buttons – what do you mean by, ‘if there is a criminal basis for it, then there might be some consequences.’?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 2:11pm
OxDrover says:
It is difficult to get our priorities in order when under PTSD and stress. Sometimes we are like the woman who is continuing to make the bed when the house is on fire, rather than runnning for a bucket of water or calling 911 or getting out of the house. I’ve been so upset I couldn’t see what was the REAL priority and I just kept making those “hospital corners” on the bed while the “house was burning.”
I think Silver makes a good point about setting those priorities and even maybe getting some help with those priorities and focusing on them.
Sometimes it is easier for us to focus on “getting even” or “outting” the psychopath than it is to focus on “how am I going to pay this month’s bills?”
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 2:24pm
Buttons says:
Onestep, what I meant was that pursuit of outing the spath may have consequences for the spath if their deeds are of a criminal nature, as defined by law.
It might thing to consider if I didn’t make my statement clearly enough – there may be consequences in pursuing justice and accountability for the Survivors, as well. Like I said, I made attempts to inform various people and entities, and I came off looking like a raving lunatic. And, why shouldn’t I have? I was so intent upon someone (anyone) believing what my ex had done, that I spent entierly too much energy on that pursuit. I was focusing on something over which I had no control, rather than keeping my feet on my healing path. Even recently, with regard to my spath son and his criminal activities, nobody wants to listen to what is perceived as wild accusations by me. So, I have to refocus until I’m calm enough, rational enough, and centered enough to maintain an even strain when discussing the obvious.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 3:04pm
silvermoon says:
One Step,
The dark days come and go. I wish it was easier to swallow that it wasn’t what I thought, but what is, is.
Hopefully the legal stuff is proceeding as we speak.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 3:19pm
bluejay says:
Buttons,
You are right on, realizing that even if you had confronted your ex-husband about what he had done to you, your kids, and your family, he wouldn’t have “gotten it”, grasped the immeasurable harm that he inflicted upon everyone. I’ve confronted my husband about his actions, really trying to spell-it-out to him, and I’ve come away with the realization that he doesn’t understand how others have been affected (traumatized) by his shenanigans. He literally doesn’t “get it,” being clueless. I’m still mystified by it all, trying to digest the fact that he is unable to grasp how hurtful his actions have been, talking to him is a waste of time, unproductive. The average person would listen to you and put an end to the nonsense.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 4:09pm
silvermoon says:
I think the ones we aren’t married to are even more a nightmare. I think of the mothers, fathers sisters and brothers and how hard it must be to realize with people you’ve spent even longer with.
And they don’t get it either for the same reasons.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 7:24pm
bluejay says:
Silvermoon,
When you try and talk to the spath about how you have been affected by his/her actions (being justifiably angry), have you come away thinking that they seem to have a mental block, that they are incapable of comprehending what you’re trying to get across to them? There’s a blankness about them. They lack common sense. I just know that I could be talking about something serious and he seems not to be able to grasp the chaos that he has produced. He can’t see things from the other person’s perspective.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 9:59pm
geminigirl says:
Blue, Silver, Until I found LF and all you great people,I was the victim of severe “gaslighting ” from my ex, and by my 2 spath daughters for YEARS and YEARS. I didnt even know what gaslighting was, but boy, I do now! Like you, Blue, I tried and tried to confront them with their behaviour and actions to me, but it was all denied, and I was made to look like a crazy person. I was told I was a “Drama Queen,” my older spaths favourite description of me.I have begged for an apology and closure on all the horrible things they did, never happened, never WILL happen. Ive been treated with contempt, derision, sneering,horrible put downs, and before I met my second husband, i had no-one in my corner, and i started to believe I WAS the crazy one!Classic gaslighting!{BTW, the book, “The gaslight effect ” arrived today, cant wait to read it!} Love, gem.XXNow Im having to deal with all this squelched down ANGER, I have to get it out, and I cant let them make me bitter!Or theyve won again!
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:15pm
silvermoon says:
Gem,
I am looking for anger. Need some of that energy. These days I feel pretty blue not because I miss him but because I’m in this mess and its going to be very hard to get out of.
I did it. I acepted his stories and I didn’t run from the warning signs, Hell I didn’t know what half of them were!
And he said all the right things. Even though laced in side them were warnings and red flags. I didn’t get it.
And now things are the way they are and don’t think its going to be easy for a while. It would be good to get mad, but I’m just not there.
I envy your anger and its brilliant energy and determintaion.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:27pm
silvermoon says:
Bluejay-
Its like this:
Trying to talk with a man
Out in this desert we are testing bombs,
that’s why we came here.
Sometimes I feel an underground river
forcing its way between deformed cliffs
an acute angle of understanding
moving itself like a locus of the sun
into this condemned scenery.
What we’ve had to give up to get here –
whole LP collections, films we starred in
playing in the neighborhoods, bakery windows
full of dry, chocolate-filled Jewish cookies,
the language of love-letters, of suicide notes,
afternoons on the riverbank
pretending to be children
Coming out to this desert
we meant to change the face of
driving among dull green succulents
walking at noon in the ghost town
surrounded by a silence
that sounds like the silence of the place
except that it came with us
and is familiar
and everything we were saying until now
was an effort to blot it out –
coming out here we are up against it
Out here I feel more helpless
with you than without you
You mention the danger
and list the equipment
we talk of people caring for each other
in emergencies – laceration, thirst -
but you look at me like an emergency
Your dry heat feels like power
your eyes are stars of a different magnitude
they reflect lights that spell out: EXIT
when you get up and pace the floor
talking of the danger
as if it were not ourselves
as if we were testing anything else.
1971
Adrienne RIch
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:31pm
bluejay says:
Geminigirl,
Until I reached this site, I have felt alone, not being sure if my husband’s family members (eg. siblings) are on to him. I suspect that none of us fully knows what he is capable of. I remember telling my therapist (before I figured out that he’s a spath) that I was tired of being his conscience, trying to set the man straight. I have since realized that he knows what he is doing and he doesn’t want to change for the better. That is what’s so frustrating – being a low-level criminal is what he will remain.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:32pm
geminigirl says:
Silver, Blue, Ive come to realise, it doesnt matter if they gave birth to us, or we gave birth to them. whether they were our lovers, wives, husbands, brothers, or sisters.THEY ARE ALL TOXIC! THEY ARE ALL SICKOS, AND BAD NEWS! False
GUILT kept me paralysed for years an d years,believe me, its very hard to go total NC with your own adult kids!
The french writer, Anais Nin, put it this way. “If you were on a raft ,in the ocean, and someone was in the water drowning, youd pull on their hand, trying to get them onto your raft, and to safety. But suddenly, they try to PULL YOU IN, AND DROWN YOU! At a certain point you have to let go of that hand, let them drown, and SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE!!
Silver, darling girl,your right, anger and PURE RAGE! is the rocket fuel that jt propells us forward, away from these toxic beings! Even Christ got angry, as OXy once pointed out, when He drove the money changers from the Temple with a whip of cords! its RIGHTEOUS anger, and its OK to feel it, and use it to propel us forward! Its when it festers inside of us that it turns into depression,{depression is really only anger we feel we arent allowed to feel}A good ROAR of anger would be so cleansing and freeing!FEEL the rage, FEEL the anger, get it out, Gal!{{HUGS!!}} and my prayers! Gem.XXThat pure anger will SAVE YOUR LIFE!!!Your allowed and entitled to feel it, and get it out!
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:47pm
bluejay says:
Silvermoon,
If it’s any consolation, I’m in a mess too. It will take a while for both of us to get out of it. I believed the stories (lies) too, thinking that my husband wouldn’t deceive me. I’m paying the price of my stupidity, being naive. I get angry, but I am still stuck, not making much progress. Hopefully, things will be better for you ASAP.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:47pm
geminigirl says:
Blue, your doing OK! Trust the process! Some days we feel like were spinning our wheels, and getting nowhere fast. But we are! Dont be mad at yourself. be mad at him!Truly, we are harder on ourselves than God is!
We beat ourselves up constantly. But at least were not spaths, we CAN feel, we CAN empathise,we have to forgive ourselves for being human!
Put your arms round yourself and give yourself a HUGE HUG!
And heres one from me{{{{{HUGGG!!!}}} and Love, mamaGem.XXXWERE ON OUR WAY, AND WERE DOIN OK!!
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:53pm
bluejay says:
Geminigirl,
Yes, they are willing to pull us in, drowning us in the process, definitely not having “our back,” protecting us from harm.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 10:59pm
bluejay says:
Geminigirl,
Does your mind ever feel like it is weighted down, deluged with too much information? I personally wish that I had never encountered a spath, didn’t know what one was. My mind can feel numb, strained from all the negative information that I have to digest. Does this happen to other people? Am I making any sense? This is how my head feels most days.
When you said in an earlier post that no-one was in your corner (years ago), I thought how lonely that must have been, discouraging, but thankfully, you’re in a better place now. It was sad to think of you being alone, not having anyone to help you maneuver through the spath maze. We’ll be okay. Hugs to you too.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 11:10pm
silvermoon says:
Bluejay,
Try Eckhardt Tolle’s The power of now- it helps a lot.
Keep reading, keep posting.
Yes, it happens.
Kathleen Hawk’s articles describe the process really well.
Go see where you are and themn where you are going to be in healing.
We are right here.
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 11:49pm
geminigirl says:
Blue, The thing is darlin GOD was in my corner! I see that now. He or She provided an escape route for me . The fundamentalist prayer group I used to go to were really No help, they kept encouraging me to STAY with my alcoholic husband.But God WAS on my side!
I think my sheer desperation and fear of being accidentally killed by either my ex or my older spath daughter, gave me the necessary rocket fuel to get the f- out, with virtually the clothes on my back, no money, but you know what? Everything came to me, cash, friends, work, a place to live, ans 6 months later I met my darling 2nd husband.
I should write a book about it all!Blue,trust the process, You ARE getting there!and {{HUGS!!}} Gem.XX
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Monday, 19 April 2010 @ 11:55pm
Buttons says:
Bluejay and Silvermoon, big hugs for you both…
For me, the healing comes in fits and starts. Some days are so promising and full of healing light. Other days are full of deep, dark despair, and those are the days when I’m either fighting like mad, or giving in and allowing myself to sprial out of control. I guess that this is all part of being human.
No matter what we have been taught, or what has been expected of us, we are not perfect and we cannot be expected to carry the weight of the world. So, I have to force myself to pick and choose which burdens I can carry and set the ones that are too much for me to bear at the side of my healing path. At some point, either the Creator will pick that burden up, or it’ll just continue to sit by the path and decompose over time.
When I lost my spirituality and Faith, I think that was the darkest moment, yet. “Okay, God/Creator/Zeus, this is absolute bullshit, and I’d like to know precisely what this is all about!!! I’m tired of all of this, and I’m ready to pack it in!” That didn’t get me very far. I didn’t get the lightning bolt epiphany….BLAM!!!! THIS is what I’m supposed to be doing, and ….BLAM!!!! I’m finally HEALED!
Bit by bit, step by step, and moment by moment (sometimes, literally moment by moment), small, gentle, affirming events occur. Those are the moments that are whispers, “I’m still here – I never left. And, you’re okay, Buttons. You’re a human being, and you’re allowed to have your stumbles. Here, let me help you up, and dust you off. Now, let’s get moving – we’ve got a long way to go, yet.”
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 7:04am
silvermoon says:
I thinkthe hardest part is that along with trust, my sense of belonging is shattered. I end up with the reality of being alone that I sought to best in finding a partner and accepting the illusion.
Of course, then, I believed it was real.
The devastating financial and social situation is a side product.
The world looks at me with suspicion because he is in jail and not because of anything I did but because of the association and the judgement I was an idiot. Therefore, it is justified in judging me harshly.
The reality of discovering all the underlying dysfunction that made me a prime target is painful. The people who were involved in it- my family will never admit. Never apologize. There will be no closure on those chapters either.
I don’t know what to think of it all. Its about proceeding and there are a few rope bridges to cross in that direction. There is nothing but to feel the fear, do it anyway and keep going the best you can.
The expectation that one day I will wake up from this nightmare and it will all be fine is far fetched. But I see what you describe Buttons that a little something, alittle bit of light everyday comes.
And that is the part of hope, that is the moment when delight is inspired.
And that is how an inspired life begins- no?
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 7:17am
Buttons says:
Silvermoon, nobody needs to know about your association unless it’s absolutely necessary. That’s one of the reasons that we got “hooked” by spaths in the first place – we gave them too much information, unknowingly.
The financial issues – yes. I’m still coping with those issues after leaving in 1996. I’ve been on welfare, faced homelessness, and all of the fears and feelings of inadequacy that go along with that. I promise that, as long as you take the bull by the horns, you will move forward down your healing path. Will you ever be able to trust, again? Maybe, but the trust will have to be earned, first, rather than given freely. Will you ever be free of financial issues? I can’t say one way or another, but some of the “richest” people I know don’t have two dimes to rub together, and they cope, manage, and practice resourcefulness and remain positive and hopeful.
What you’re experiencing is normal. You’re “allowed” to indulge in the hypervigilance, trust issues, etc., because you were HARMED…….YOU were harmed by another person, deliberately, and with malice. Just try not to let momentary indulgences become excuses or obsessions. Brighest blessings, my dear.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 7:32am
silvermoon says:
Well, in my case, trying to raise capital for a start up, unfortunately, I have to make sure I don’t have ANY secrets and there is no mistaking that I am doing the right thing, the right way as fast as I can because people check.
I’ve got the bull by the horms, but the problem is bringing him down fast enough to outrun the disasters.
I won’t say that I feel inadequate, I was fooled by someone who intended it. It is frustrating to suffer for it within the close relationships I;d counted on from family. But the Scotch – Irish are a tough bunch of souls. And a polluted gene pool.
Nothing I can do about it. And it does cause me sadness.
I am frustrated by being fearful of all of the horrible things which could happen to me and not having resources to deal with it. I am frustrated by the legal system that continually puts hoops before me without producing results.
Understand about excuses, there is not excuse. What is, is.
Right now, the frustration with moving forward and the sadness about what is real is pretty intense.
I am weary. I feel rattled on the inside. It costs much energy to be bright and transparent. I may afford moments of reflection about what is real and true.
The work which women have done to change their standing in our American society is far from over- although a year ago I might have said differently and I feel so aware of it now.
Its different in the West. Here it feels like a weight. And I am reminded of the notion of what if atlas shrugged? I tell you some days I think “I quit, let the takers have it all, they will destroy each other with it”.
I can afford musing and a reorder of philosophical perspective, I can afford to pray and to clear my mind-
But not delay. Not to hold back and not, for a minute to stop going forward. Even if I have to do it with a blister filled with anxiety over what has happened and what the light of truth reveals.
A psyche study reveals that people who are well liked are not any more successful than others. It is a revealing concept. The point is, its ok to be angry and demanding sometimes if it creates the results you need. So, I am musing, strategizing, feeling and working my way though to wounded innocence and toward righteous indignation.
It took 8 weeks to stop bargaining with God for the “insult”. It took that long for the dream to let go. Now I’m week 10 in the process and find that the grieving is substantial- not for the man who lied but for the me who wound up in a confusing, hellish place where there is judgement of who I am because of the poor judgement I made in believing.
Doesn’t matter if I like it. I have to deal with it. Homelessness not withstanding, fear irrespective, I get to wear the fact and I have to live it down. Yeah, I wish that there might be some embrasure that says don’t worry it will be ok and a little less tough reality. But there is a kind of love there too.
The most of the healing comes from hanging onto the planet with fingernails while these events unfold wildly in space and time finding here respite in the voice which echo- YEP, that’s it, that’s the way it is.
Bright blessings back to you.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 8:24am
silvermoon says:
A mature (over 50) lady gets pulled over for speeding…
Older Woman: Is there a problem, Officer?
Officer: Ma’am, you were speeding.
Older Woman: Oh, I see.
Officer: Can I see your license please?
Older Woman: I’d give it to you but I don’t have one.
Officer: Don’t have one?
Older Woman: Lost it, 4 years ago for drunk driving.
Officer: I see ….. Can I see your vehicle registration papers please.
Older Woman: I can’t do that.
Officer: Why not?
Older Woman: I stole this car.
Officer: Stole it?
Older Woman: Yes, and I killed and hacked up the owner.
Officer: You what?
Older Woman: His body parts are in plastic bags in the trunk if you want to see
The Officer looks at the woman and slowly backs away to his car and calls for back up. Within minutes 5 police cars circle the car. A senior officer slowly approaches the car, clasping his half drawn gun.
Officer 2: Ma’am, could you step out of your vehicle please! The woman steps out of her vehicle.
Older woman: Is there a problem sir?
Officer 2: One of my officers told me that you have stolen this car and murdered the owner.
Older Woman: Murdered the owner?
Officer 2: Yes, could you please open the trunk of your car, please.
The woman opens the trunk, revealing nothing but an empty trunk.
Officer 2: Is this your car, ma’am?
Older Woman: Yes, here are the registration papers.
The officer is quite stunned.
Officer 2: One of my officers claims that you do not have a driving license.
The woman digs into her handbag and pulls out a clutch purse and hands it to the officer.
The officer examines the license. He looks quite puzzled.
Officer 2: Thank you ma’am, one of my officers told me you didn’t have a license, that you stole this car, and that you murdered and hacked up the owner.
Older Woman: Bet the liar told you I was speeding, too.
Don’t Mess With Mature Ladies !
This just made me laugh. Yes, we can learn a lot from THEM!
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 8:51am
one_step_at_a_time says:
silver – i wrote a long post to you at home, emailed it to myself, came to the library – and the damn thing didn’t show up. ergghhh. i wrote it before your anger showed itself so it may be a bit outdated.
i will post it as soon as i can. i don’t have enough time on the computer @ the library to write long missives. respnding to you this AM was a huge help to me. i could see some things more clearly. so, thank you.
i have found that accessing anger about other things (like the dip shit lawyer and the un’do’ness of the legal process) helped me to access my anger about the ppath.
you are in my thoughts. you are going to get through this. no doubt in my mind. whatsoever.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 2:12pm
silvermoon says:
Thanks one!
Good to see you.
Libraries smell good. Always enjoy them myself.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 3:02pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
this one, unfortunately smells like stinky boy cologne.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 3:10pm
silvermoon says:
Well so much for the sensory image of the intellect’s bucholic retrat…..
That does stink…..
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 3:28pm
bluejay says:
Silver -
I will get a hold of the book that you recommend, plus will read the articles. You made a comment about fearing “all the horrible things that could happen” to yourself. I can relate to that. My concern is that my husband will be arrested one day and I will be so embarrassed, having had enough to deal with already. I live in hyper-alert mode, putting out fires. I’ve got children and I do not want them to experience a parent being in jail. I grew up “in the suburbs” too, never having to personally live up-close to a criminal. You are not alone, being able to sympathise with your situation, knowing it’s hard. I’m struggling every day with my emotions, trying my best to get even-keeled. There are times when I want to quit, wondering why I bother to go on, feeling that all I do is get slammed. All I want is a peaceful, normal existence, no DRAMA. I had the thought this morning while I was driving home from work, “don’t feed the beast of fear”, being consumed by fear, apprehension most days. I lack the resources to handle most things now. Take care.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 3:52pm
bluejay says:
Buttons -
Like you, I have promising days and not-so promising days, too often getting sucked into the vortex of despair. My family can’t stand my husband due to all of his nonsense, usually costing me what I don’t have. He knows how to throw money out the window. No-one can afford to be married to a spath (eg. financially, emotionally, etc.) – they’re trouble with a capital T. I’m done. I want things to get better for all of us immediately.
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Tuesday, 20 April 2010 @ 4:19pm
Hopeforjoy says:
Just want to relay some thoughts about PTSD, I experience all the symptoms and I really didn’t think it was possible to have this unless something violent happens to you. When someone touches me and I’m not expecting it, I jump or flinch. Even if it’s a friend I’ve know for awhile. It’s possible I have this, I’ll have to ask my therapist.
Another note, on a narcissism blog it was recommended to watch gaslight, I started to get really anxious remembering some really bad times that husband tried to get me to believe something that wasn’t true. He would tell me he loved me more than anyone in the world and why he wouldn’t lie to me. I cried and cried and he doted on me, asked me what I needed, brought me lunch in bed, rubbed my legs. Then when I asked him to take a lie detector test, he changed, flipped like a switch, “what the f*** do I have to do”. He changed, when I went away for a girls weekend after that, that is when he called my mom for an intervention for me.
I couldn’t finish the movie, as I think about it now, I still feel my heart racing.
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 3:33pm
Hopeforjoy says:
Gosh, that last post sounds so fragile and pathetic, I have GOT to pull it together!
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 3:36pm
learning says:
Dear Hopeforjoy,
Youre right, PTSD doesnt only happen after something violent happens to us, but also after experiencing severe emotional abuse or just a total shift of our balance and being/feeling grounded after experiencing a relationship with a toxic person.
Fragile is something that becomes a given as we begin to find our way on our own again — or sometimes even for the first time.
But “pathetic” is not what you are or any of us… we are just learning how to react and deal and pull it together. Its SO not easy, but its possible. Its taking one day at a time and believing and knowing the truth of what they are all about and what we will no longer allow in our own lives.
Youre going to get through this and you will be okay! We get stronger as we go…hard to envision but as long as we keep going and working through it we become less and less fragile… hang in there!
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 4:40pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Hope,
Learning is so right, and KNOWLEDGE=POWER so I suggest that you go back through the articles here and read your way through them all. Also order the books that are recommended here they will help you.
I have a library of books, some are right spot on with relationship to me, and some not so much, but EACH one has contributed to my recovery, but I also know that it is no longer about THEM but about ME. I will not ever be the SAME as I was before all this—AND I AM SO GLAD!!!!! I am changed, and that is OK. I am just like a broken leg, where I have healed I am STRONGER than I ever was before. Sure it hurt, and hurt badly, and took some time to heal, but I learned a lesson and I am not going to let another psychopath “break my emotional legs” again. I may get hit byf a STRANGER P but it will be someone I have not been around before or for very long, because I am getting pretty good at spotting them now.
Heck, they almost LOOK HUMAN!!!! So at a distance it is hard to tell what they are, but you get up close to them and you start to get the feeling “something isn’t right”—LIKE THAT TV SERIES “V” where the aliens are lizards disguised as humans.
So you will start to GROW and realize what red flags are, and become able to set boundaries and enforce them, not doubt yourself so much etc. So you just keep plugging, it WILL GET BETTER! I promise you! (((Hugs)))) and my prayers!
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 5:15pm
behind_blue_eyes says:
OxDrover;
OMG you are so right about the feeling “something isn’t right” comment. Mine had the classic “sociopath stare.” I even remember those eyes from across the room right before we met.
His eyes made me uncomfortable. Before I gained all my knowledge regarding sociopaths, I thought I was the problem — insecurity on my part because he looked at me so closely. Of course I began to interpret his stare as evidence of deep interest…
But it was more than the stare. Jamie’s way of talking was that he seemed to chose his words very carefully, but in a manner I had never before experienced. This is another sign of the defective prefrontal cortex processing seen in sociopaths.
Too bad I did not know it at the time. In fact, all this stuff I attributed to his charm and politeness, while at the same time thinking something is not right here.
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 6:03pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Blue eyes,
That instinctive gut feeling we have that “something is not right” is the hold over from our caveman days when we were prey. Now the only predators for humans just about is another human that is a mutant version who has become a predator.
You know some snakes will eat only other snakes, even their own kind! So just because they are “snakes” doesn’t mean they don’t prey on each other. Psychopaths will do that too, they prey on us and they prey on each other. I am sure you have seen it in some couples, two ps in a relationship I call “gasoline & fire!” each one taking the victim position and then alternating with the abuser role, like playing musical chairs and sometimes those up and down drama king/queen relationships are semi stable for decades of misery and drama!
Many times when one person presents him/herself to someone outside the relationship as a VICTIM, they are anything BUT a victim, they are a predator who lost the last war with another predator. The Ps seem to like this role of being the victim, so you must also take care in meeting someone who presents as a “victim” which as I recall Jamie did as well. Childhood abuse, X-abuse and so on, because ‘normal” humans are pre-programmed to feel sorrow, compassion and pity on the wounded. They learn quickly how to exploit that.
Not all of them have the LOOK unless they are angry, but many do. I almost think a non-angry LOOK is because they are devoid of the emotions that put “depth” to a person’s expression even when they are just relaxed and not particularly thinking of something either good or bad. Plus they also have the predator-look as they assess their prey for possible weaknesses which gives them an advantage.
A lion or other big cat can “glance” at a herd of 1000 antelope and pick out the one with a limp and they go after that one. Even a tiny advantage over the rest of the herd which will be more able or willing to fight back or flee.
I am so glad that you are doing better Blue. Gaining strength and insight about how Jamie “stalks” his prey. You are fortunate that you got out intact. Also I read some pretty grim statistics yesterday about the level of +HIV in America in the gay population, average over US is like 18%, 45% in Baltimore (why Baltimore????) and it said also that about 50% don’t know their status.
The book I got these stats out of was copyrighted 2009 and is a neurology book being used in the med school in my state. A friend of my son Ds recommended he read it. It talks about various brain diseases including HIV and how the virus attacks the brain and nervous system, and how difficult it is to get the drugs past the blood brain barrier so once the brain is invaded by the virus, (usually fairly early on it said) it keeps replicating in the brain and punching holes in the brain even if the drugs keep it down in the blood and the rest of the body. Not a pretty sight.
I know it is my old womanish prejudice and my medical professional prejudice but frankly I would not have ANY kind of sex with ANY one until I got a complete test prior, AND was reasonably sure they were not fooling around with anyone else. And still then, no “unsafe” sex at all.
There are lots of STDs besides HIV that are fatal, and not cureable. So as this book described, this is this generation’s BLACK PLAGUE, in Africa alone it has already killed 22 million, and in some places there 50% are infected (and have little or no access to drugs) China is the fastest growing area in the world (they used and reused dirty needles a few years back in a plasma harvesting deal and infected tons of folks)
In US, one of the rapidly growing groups getting it is also the 40-60 yr old hetrosectuals as they think “not my group” or “not me” and of course that is foolish thinking and they are not well educated about it either.
Without making any moral judgments, I think sex is a bonding ritual (or should be) between adults who really care about each other. It is sure risky for it to be anything else. So I will err on the side of caution and I do my best to educate folks to this point of view. I realize that there are a great many other folks who don’t agree with my point of view and are willing to take that risk, but I’m not. So please don’t take my “preaching” at you as aimed specifically at “you” personally. I think I should start calling myself the REVEREND Oxy! LOL
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 6:42pm
Hopeforjoy says:
Dear Ox,
I appreciate your advice and have been reading all that I can about narcissists and sociopaths. The next thing to work on is healing and recovery, although, until husband is out of the house, that will be difficult. Sending you much happiness and I’m so grateful for your wise insite to the world of the disordered.
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Tuesday, 27 April 2010 @ 9:54pm
behind_blue_eyes says:
OxDrover;
You are so right again. I think part of recovery is remembering and processing things you forgot. My “denial” was that somehow because Jamie felt he could not tell me about his HIV status, this issue was his shame over the HIV and if somehow “poor Jamie” could have told me, all wonder have been right. Other “poor Jamies…” kept me in denial about the real person and what he did.
It took me over a year to begin getting over him. Why? Denial and escape. I spent nearly a year trying to drink and sex him away. And I never processed reality.
But once I really started doing my work, the mask came off and I began to see the predator and the manipulator. Now, all these little things keep coming back to me, more warning signs that I ignored.
Yes, I saw the red flags surrounding his upbringing, his drinking, smoking, his profession (flight attendant), his hatred for his father. Those I ignored or rationalized (just started smoking again…). But the little ones and you just reminded me of another.
Jamie mentioned that he stopped seeing the previous guy he was dating because “he could not find time for me…” Seems more like to your point one predator beaten by another, because there was no sorrow in Jamie, it was all very matter of fact.
The HIV brain thing I understand as I have a biomedical degree. I was so concerned over this and other things I was reading about long-term HIV survivors I came very close to emailing Jamie, as I am aware of some experimental medications in this area that are not available in the UK. It was a very hard decision for me not to and I felt guilty over it.
Now I realize I have the right to protect myself from manipulation and lies and don’t feel so bad. Personally, and I don’t want to politicize this, but I think the HIV community does all a huge disservice by downplaying the long-term reality of an HIV infection, even if it is no longer imminently fatal.
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Wednesday, 28 April 2010 @ 11:29pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
‘Now I realize I have the right to protect myself from manipulation and lies and don’t feel so bad. ‘
TOWANDA BLUE EYES!!
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Wednesday, 28 April 2010 @ 11:32pm
Outlier says:
(Bad ptsd last night, opening up to the idea of talking about the sexual abuse to professionals. Head imploding. )
For decades my S sister uses the line ‘oh you’re awake then!!! when I ever answered the phone at any time of day, she still gaslights me with this little weapon 20 years later.
This is my sister:
cannot . stop . thinking . about . abusing . must . abuse . because . i am . incapable . of . stopping . my mental . state . to . abuse.
If I had cancer my S sister (a doctor) would abuse it beautifully. She would LOVE to know I’m ill with cancer, she would celebrate it with relish. I disclose the ptsd to people I trust, VERY few people. At no point should this information be passed to the sociopath. After the aha! do not present yourself being in pain. It is a juicy bone for the dog.
Dr leedom, your last paragraph I will like to highlight as being a benchmark point for yor article. Understanding that it is a past situation, despite the ongoing presence it carries in our psyche. Maintain healthy living, until your mind accepts the healthy life and stops breathing the trauma. I realise just how ridiculous abusers need to maintain their ‘mental health trap’. I encounter dozens of people in an average day. Not one person sees me as mentally ill. ONLY the people who know the abuser. The contrast is amazing when you’re thick with ptsd. They dont see mental instability but a totally normal confident and engaging person. Go out (the grocery store, the cinema, the bank, the library, the gym) – you’re normal and healthy and people see it. They reciprocate by communicating to a normal and very healthy person.
I stupidly manintained contact over Spring with a view to say ‘hey my dear sister who sexually abused me when I was a child, look at me! you don’t scare me! I’m right in front of you and no matter how much you kill me, I’m still standing. I’m standing because I am standing in front of a child who displayed a personality disorder at 15 and I’ve seen it develop for 30 years.
Then I realised that I was enabling her. I was in fact giving her ammunition that she can say
‘hey outlier, i love it that you can speak so nicely with me even after I abuse you, heh heh heh, you can’t stop respecting me can you, after all the sh!t and pain I cause, I watch you bounce up like a stupid little ball, all the gaslighting I do, and you can be nice back, well thank you, and yeah thanks for keeping silent, it’s a neat trick. you can’t say anything can you? a win-win for me. would you like some tea?’
NC (ptsd induced) screams ‘mentally unstable’ for her and my family. I’ll gladly pay the price of losing my family who are too gullible and so blinded in their eyes. I plan to help the abused, with reference to survivors of sexual abuse. It may make people (with intelligence) wonder of all the things in the world… ……………………… …
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 9:58am
OxDrover says:
Dear Outlier,
I am sorry you are in such a situation with your doctor/sister and yes, if we “pretend” to be “normal” with THEM (the abuser) they take it as a victory. My own egg donor’s mantra was “let’s pretend none of the abuse I did to you ever happened”—-of course under the guise of “I don’t want to talk about unhappy things, I just want to concentrate on the positive” BULL HOCKEY!!!
Of course, as you say, NC with her screams “Mentally unstable,” because she does in retaliation for my going NC with her.” Why would anyone who WASN’T unstable think SHE WAS ABUSIVE?” (tongue in cheek here)
They are quite good at cloaking their fangs!
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:07am
Outlier says:
Well, if you give birth to a boy, raise that boy strictly as a girl, educating them how to toilet train as a girl would that the penis is what all girls have, to use the left hand if they are right, to grow their hair and braid it, to teach them to drink out a dog bowl crouching on the floor and not from a beaker and teach them a cat is a snake and a dog is a cat, have sex with them, let them see you pleasure yourself in front of sesame street, teach them to work to earn a glass of milk or food etc etc…
Experts, okay there’s no war, rape, kidnapping, hurricane. Does the kid have ptsd perchance?
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:13am
OxDrover says:
Dear OUtlier,
Those that hurt others, espoecially children, justify themselves by gaslighting and denying what is real, what is true. They justify themselves by saying that what you know is real is imagined, that you are “crazy” because “No one would do such a thing to a child, and surely I wouldn’t do that to my child.”
I’m sorry you have experienced such “crazy-making” but I am glad that you see what is real now, and know what is real now, and though everyone in the world deny it, you can validate yourself now. In the end, sometimes that’s the only validation possible, but it’s enough. Enough for me. God bless you.
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:23am
Outlier says:
As we are dealing with personality disorders, we are reasoning with mentally unstable people! You can’t reason with brain disordered people.
I was reading something about the abuser/victim/helper musical chairs post earlier. Quite brilliant. OxDrover sometimes you make me laugh at your ability to articulate what we know from experience but dont quite get round saying how to say it. I try to answer you, but I often find, how to follow it. If I don’t always answer back you’ve made me THINK, not necessarily exchange back. You just shut me up and made me think, and that’s a powerful thing you can do.
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:28am
Outlier says:
Oxdrover, there’s a powerful film about sexual abuse. It changed me. It validated me. Legal justice will never be reached. SOUL JUSTICE is and will and has and can. Even if the abuse is always silent, we can disclose to support groups, our doctor, our counsellors, fellow vicitims and very trusted people who know nothing about the abuser. That indeed can be enough validation. It’s interesting how it takes so long for someone to realise that they’ve been abused. I thought ‘ but abuse happens to really abused people, people who are really ill in hospital. I didn’t even accept that everything I experienced was “abuse”. My ignorance breathed for decades, so can you imagine the ignorance the abuser’s enablers and society breathe? In the UK, it is not an obligation for schools to report abuse. If they are aware of it, they are not by law to report the abuser. (It is in Northern Ireland) This something I would dearly love to see changed in my lifetime.
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 10:36am
OxDrover says:
Dear Outlier,
NO RESPONSE needed. Sometimes I am musing/talking to MYSELF even if it is “addressed” to you or someone else. That’s part of the wonder here is that in blogging to others it makes US think in order to put it down on the screen in letters. I have preached more to myself than I ever have to others.
Through the years of my life I have learned about various things (one is the victim’s triangle: Victim, rescuer, and abuser and the “musical chairs”) and never really put those things I learned TO USE, but finally, FINALLY, they started to come together and I started to USE THE KNOWLEDGE I had accumulated to protect myself.
It’s scary to admit MY FAMILY IS NOT A NICE NORMAL FAMILY, my family members are FARKED UP! Because after so much energy and so many years have been used keeping up this facade, to admit it, even to yourself, much less the rest of the neighborhood, and world, is devestating. “Protect the family’s good name” above all else, and above ANY REALITY otherwise, keep up the FRONT, no matter how false or how much energy it takes to hold it up there in front of the dirt and filth of what it really is!
I think I know how the Catholic church feels about having its cover ups of the pedophile priests exposed, and even the pope outed as one who covered it up. Gosh, I MUST BE A CATHOLIC and I didn’t even know it!!!! Cause I sure know how the COVER UP THE DIRT AT ANY COST policy works!
And yes, I stood here in all my piety and all my LACK OF HUMILITY after having covered up stuff “just as bad” for my own family, for myself, for my P-son. There goes my HUMILITY AWARD again! DArn it! Every time I thinnk I am so humble, and I put on that humble button and look down on someone else for covering up the dirt in their “family” (in this case the pedophile priests) I REALIZE I AM JUST LIKE THE ONE DOING THE COVERING UP! It turns out I’m not any better than they are. Then there goes the humility award again!
Wonder when I will learn not to wear it!
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Thursday, 3 June 2010 @ 11:00am
Delta1 says:
Oho – just ordered ‘Betrayal Bond’ Patrick Carnes and ‘Without Conscience’ Dr Robert Hare which have been recommended by several people to me.
RE- Will I ever be the same? I had been asking myself this question for around 2 years, that’s right 2 whole years since my exN ‘devalued and discarded’ me. I’ve come a massive long way – because now when people say ‘are you okay’. Sometimes I’m actually surprised that they’re asking I’m like – ‘Er what r u talking about – what do you mean ‘am I okay?’. YAY!
But it was a long roller-coaster journey even to this point – and I know that the ‘healing journey’ is not over.
Basically I would like to talk about the feeling:
“OMG – what’s wrong with me!!! Am I crazy!!!! Why has this happened to me. And also the ideas of looking for ‘labels’ for why you appear to have lost your mind and want to die during or after relationships with your N S or P and fear that there is some ‘intrinsically wrong’ with your inner being”.
Also related to this first idea: has anyone read alot of Sam Vaknin stuff. He claims to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder but is a bit of a controversial figure with some people on the net claiming he’s really a P/S ‘in disguise’. You can’t avoid coming across his stuff ‘first’ if your searching for information on Narcissists.
I did find some of the information on the SV sites helpful, but some of it also quite disturbing. Overall I am left with the impression that although the information on the site is quite factual and accurate in many respects, it does manifest his Narc contempt for ‘victims’, I prefer the term ‘targets’ of abuse as I find it less emotive and ‘blaming’ of the person who’s been harmed somehow.
Anyway in my case, just as I was just after getting out of the relationship with exN. I’m glad I was able to ‘find’ the concept of Narcissitic Personality Disorder in the first place as this is what first came out when I stared doing research on the ‘net that ‘fit’.
However – as a result of reading all the SV stuff quite intensely – I spent around 2 months really quite frightened that I might have a Cluster B personality too (histronic/borderline or ‘inverted’ narcissist).
For everyone else out there who’s still in or just coming out of an abusive relationship with an S N or P. IT WAS A REAL DEAD END to pathologise and label my difficulties at that time.
I mean I do have some issues and behaviours that are unhealthy like everyone, but reading the SV stuff was a complete trigger for the whole ‘maybe I really am crazy/maybe I’m a born victim and will never be able to withstand the predators)
I now believe that I was suffering a form of PTSD and situational depression made worse by heavy/binge drinking at weekends. Probably also processing some old ‘childhood’ trauma that took it’s chance to ’say hello and be healed’. This process continues of course, or likely I wouldn’t be on LF!!
instead I came to the conclusion that my ‘traits’ fit the fact that I am an ENFP on the Meyer-Briggs (type Meyer-Briggs in your search engines it if you like guys) – and very extrovert, with quite alot of narcissistic traits (ie being in a band, liking attention). However despite having lots of ‘narcisstic traits’ – some of which I do get embarrassed about frankly, I’m not repeat not a Cluster B NPD. How do I know this – well BECAUSE I’m embarrassed by some of my narcissistic ’show-offy’ traits and try to make sure that I’m not upsetting anyone (showing empathy) etc etc.
I think I was a better ‘target’ for my particular N because of being extravert etc. More ‘Narcissistic Supply’ for someone who craves popularity, more fun to break down and dominate.
I’m not saying that all N’s S’s or P’s target extraverts of course. Each target is picked for different reasons – not so much for what we ‘lack’ but because we all have lots of things that they want and it varies from predator to predator what they ‘want from you’. I’m not saying they’re not clever at picking a ‘weak spot’ to get you. i.e when you’re sick, ill, have come out of a bruising situation of some sort.
But just remember – you were a target because you were worth having. The predators trick is to convince you that you’re nothing, your worthless etc so that they can possess and control you and take what they want from you without fear of being called to account for their anti-social behaviour.
Sorry if this is all a bit obvious stuff. But hopefully it’ll help someone out there still wondering if it’s all their fault.
Erm – noo!
Blessings
Delta 1 x
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 10:50am
OxDrover says:
Dear Delta1,
Many of us are smart, capable, successful, outgoing, giving, caring, empathetic people—just as “they” have many personality qualities in common so do we. One of the things I really liked about LF when I first came here is I recognized the higher quality of “targets” at this particular site. I also recognized that on this site there is almost NO flaming, no attacking each other, there are multiple professionals here, and just in general a “better quality” of folks than on many of the other “suvivor” sites. There is also more science on this site and less pseudo-science and bad information.
I have no doubt I have had PTSD, first from the plane crash that killed my husband before my eyes, and then from my son and his Trojan Horse Psychopaqth ex cell mate destroying my physical safety. MULTIPLE levels of crisis one piled on top of another and like the richter scale for earth quakes the next level up is 10 xs as bad as the previous one, so an earth quake that is a 2 is TEN times worse than a 1, and a level 3 earthquake is TEN times worse than a level 2 (or 100 times worse than the level 1 and so on) The stress adds up rather quickly that way to a monumental lin SURVIVAL mode is about the best you can do or hope for.
There is a PROFOUND EFFECT on the physical and mental and emotional parts of us with huge amounts of chemicals injected into our bodies and brains in an attempt to help us survive in the short term…unfortunately the continued release of these chemicals overwhelms our systems to the point that we literally are “crazy”—-and given the level of trauma we endure, an “abnnormal” response to an abnormal situation is NORMAL.
It takes TIME for our bodies, minds and souls to return to a state of stasis. We may in deed never be “the SAME” but that doesn’t mean we can’t be WELL. Personally I am NOT the same and I am BETTER than I have ever been in my life time. My thinking is more clear, I can now set boundaries and mean them. I am no longer in the FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt) or using outdated and self defeating social responses that leave me vunerable to attack from others.
I am using my courage and bravery to PROTECT MYSELF from others who do not have good motives and behavior toward me.
I am using bright mind and my intuition (gut feeling) to assess the situation to see if there are potential threats visible in the people around me?
I am no longer assuming responsibility for doing other people’s jobs or caring for them when they refuse to care for themselves. I no longer feel that I am guilty if someone else throws themselves in front of a train and screams at me as they do so, “This is your fault!”
I am also no longer beating myself up because it took me decades to realize that I had allowed myself to be TARGETED by Ps, over and over and over, and that I had lived in the FOG my entire life. I did the best I knew how then, but now I know better and I am doing better.
Sure I have little ups and downs even now, that is called LIFE, but I am learning to handle them in new ways. That’s called HEALING and GROWTH!
Walk toward the light! Even if it flickers!
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 11:11am
Delta1 says:
Hi Ox Drover (Oxy)
I think I am getting what you’re saying here and really liked these thoughts from you and how you really get across that LF has some really great people here. I too think it’s the best place on the net I’ve found ‘for me’ in my particular situation.
I’m very intrigued by your story – though kind of PO’d that someone clearly as full of intelligence, guts ‘n’ goodstuff has had so much pain to deal with which you clearly don’t deserve.
I’m v.impressed by your adventures (though sad it had to be with someone who was so toxic to you) as I also wanted to be a bit of an adventuress when young (I was into racing off-road motorbikes, travelling across Africa – in fact I was foolishly fearless for many a long year around these kind of things).
I don’t like to to into any statements which seems as though any one person’s experience is more or less valuable or valid- – but am I gobsmacked (is impressed the wrong word?) by some of the stuff you’ve got through and your ability to have got through without it making you permanently bitter & twisted. You are such a great presence on this site from what I can see and many people are very grateful for all your support and help (including me of course).
I’m not sure I’ve been ‘tested’ the way that you have been, I’m not sure that I would have come out of the experiences you describe with ‘my eye on the flame – even flickering’. Actually I feel lucky to have skated on my particular abuser in some ways – but ‘caught on’ before I found someone who would rob, kill or do other things to me. My abuser was a nasty guy, but he didn’t have the education, opportunity or life experiences to really get rolling on me to the point that I ‘couldn’t get out’. In fact having known nastier men than him in the past made me complacent frankly.
I hope that by getting exN convicted of an offence and exposing him publicly – I may have given him pause to ‘think twice’ before trying that again on me or anybody. I’m not sure he can ‘be stopped’ but if everyone gets wise, it’ll get harder for N’s in particular to carry on with their b/s. I think S’s/P’s are tougher nuts to crack as they don’t have the same needs as an N and are harder to ‘manipulate back’.
I am not complacent – there are plenty of abusers still out there and the big thing I’ve learned is not to be arrogant or complacent or that ’stuff like that won’t happen to me ‘cos I’m smart’. I’m still not THAT smart personally – which is something I used to find hard to admit (being a know-it-all is one of my less attractive personality traits!!)
It may sound a bit wierd, but I’ve always been an adventure hound & adrenaline junkie. I used to want to know about ‘evil’ and thought that I could be some kind of ‘hero’. Ha. I actually said to my interviewer for my Child Protection Social Work course that I felt I had to do this work because the profession needed people who can ’stand up to’ the abusers without getting sucked in. I thought I was invincible (v.silly girl!!) – I used to want to experience everything the world has to offer.
I’m not beating myself up here, but maybe this kind of attitude is what has got me into trouble sometimes, however – eventually, I seem to have learned and grown stronger in the long run from these ‘challenges’.
PS – I love that you use the ‘Trojan Horse’ analogy/reference for your ’son’s cellmate’ (have I understood that right?) In my ignorance, before I even knew what I P, S or N was I used to tell people who were being manipulated by my exN that they were ‘Trojan Horses’ – and to go away and ‘look it up!’
Glad to get such a positive post Ox Drover.
PS I’m real jealous of all your living/experiences with horses, oxen and animals generally- here in the UK we don’t get much of that ‘great outdoor’ living. I live in a teeny tiny box of a flat – but hey it’s all mine !!!
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 1:44pm
Wini says:
Delta1, I agree with you whole heartedly. I am in awe of the folks like Oxy and others that had to endure this pain and torture from parental/caretaker figures as children. Figure it out. Throw the garbage out or keep it tucked way back in their minds, as they keep fighting their way to TRUTH. It’s tough enough on those of us who endured this pain and torture during our adult lives, but I can’t imagine having to survive this as a child and come out sane, stable and keep that sense of humor.
Smile and God Bless to all the Oxys on this site.
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 1:55pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Delta1,
Thank you for those positive thoughts, but there’s a lot of DARK SIDE to my “adventures” as well. YOu know the definition of ADVENTURE? IT IS THE RESULT OF POOR PLANNING.
One thing I think you (and all of us) need to grasp in my HO is that no one’s pain is greater or lesser than anyone else’s.
I was reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s search for meaning” in his descriptions of the Nazi camps he was in, and the psychological conditions of the different inmates, including himself. He concluded that PAIN IS ALWAYS TOAL. Your pain is TOTAL to you, my pain is total to me.
Example. Look at the pain of a baby that has just dropped it’s toy and can’t reach it. HIS PAIN IS TOTAL. He is DEVESTATED completely at the loss of hhis toy.
Now, let’s say that child is attacked by a wolf, and badly mauled. HE IS TOTALLY DEVESTATED.
Which pain is worse? NEITHER. Pain acts like a gas, and TOTALLY fills the container up. A little gas expands to fill the container and a lot of gas contracts and fills the container. This is Frankl’s concept and it went AH HA!!@!!! in me when I read it and explained to me why all pain is total. No ones is more than anyone elses. We are TRULY EQUAL in our pain, regardless of how much stuff we lost, or how long we were taken or by whom.
This healing thing I think now is philosophy 101– and Psychology 101 —up. We have to look at our “philosophy” of life, the things we hold as philosophical TRUTHS—some of them are WRONG.
For example, we are told “there are two (valid) sides to every story” and that is NOT TRUE.
Another is “It takes TWO to fight” That is also NOT true, it only takes a bully and a victim to “fight.”
And so on, we are taught these “truths” by our parents and our teachers and our friends and peers but these philosophical teachings are NOT all valid.
If we operate on these teachings as foundations for our thinking, we can make some bad judgment calls. Especially when the abuser is using these maximums to deflect attention away from his/her lies and abuse.
There was a time I did pro bono health care for the women and children in a DV. I actually felt SUPERIOR to these women, I WOULD NEVER HAVE GONE BACK TO A RELATIONSHIP WITH A MAN WHO BEAT ME—-that’s true, BUT I had a relationship with a SON WHO BEAT ME, AND MURDERED ANOTHER WOMAN ….DUH? How SUPERIOR was that? NOT!!!
The advice that Jesus gave to get the log out of your own eye before you try to pick the splinter out of your neighbors eye is wonderfully great advice. No one has had bigger logs in their eyes than I have! I struggle every day to pull them out of my own eyes.
I’ve had to learn to set boundaries, to quit taking responsibility for others lives, to quit enabling others, to take care of myself, to love myself and treat myself with respect. To demand that others who want to be in my life treat me with respect or get the heck gone To learn that the world will not come crashing down if everyone in the world does not think how “nice” I am—-that NO ONE is immune or gets a pass to treat me poorly, no matter how they are related to me, or how much I love them. NO ONE.
My boundaries are not WALLS, like every other human I need human companionship and associations, my boundaries have GATES, but I guard those gates well, and there are KEYS to get in and RULES that if flaunted will get you tossed out and your KEY taken back.
My trust is no longer automatically extended to everyone I meet. It is EARNED and MAINTAINED by being trustworthy. Once BETRAYED it is difficult to recover, not impossible, but very DIFFICULT. About the first of this year (6 months ago) my son C lied to me—betrayed the trust I had granted him. He’s not a P (not perfect, but does have a conscience) and he no longer has my trust any more for his word. There are benefits that go along with my love and trust and friendship, but he also lost those benefits as well as the trust. Because I do not put myself out on a limb to do favors for people I can’t trust (and therefore don’t enjoy being around)
I’m not totally NC with him, I have business from time to time I e mail him about (mostly his brother’s parole hearing up coming) but other than that, nada. I don’t even miss him any more and have done with the shock and awe part of the grief about the down turn in the relationship. That part is getting easier and faster now when someone does violate my boundaries, even if the grief is intense it doesn’t last as long as previous ones. I think honestly as we get “practice” handling grief we get better at it.
Thanks again, Delta, and keep on putting one foot in front of the other, I have seen so much progress in so many people who are starting to get “sane” again as they reach out to others on the blog. You’re a very bright and courageous woman in your own right! You are in a wonderful position in your career to use the kinowledge you gain from the P-experience to help others to heal and grow! To help mums and dads who are dealing with an X-H/W who is raking them over the coals with the children as pawns.
Gosh I wish I was 20 years younger and go back to work! You inspire me about the potenital good you have in your career! Go for the gusto!
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 2:11pm
Delta1 says:
Hi Ox Drover (Oxy)
Maybe you can use your experience (if you feel you want to) positively in other areas that at LF like you did before -though you are doing fantastic stuff here too and frankly that’s probably ‘enough’.
I so relate to your bit about ‘feeling superior to’ the people I was working for in DV cases. Before my exN I too used to think it ‘couldn’t happen to me etc etc’. I tell myself now that this unenlightened position really just showed my lack of experience of the ‘real world’ really when you think about it.
Of course, I’m not sure of your age (I’m not asking!!) There’s no age for volunteering or even for paid ’social care’ professionals (in the UK) we’re getting very ‘anti-ageist’ here BTW and we had a new SW join last week who qualified aged 60 – she’s an utterly fantastic addition to our team. I can only imagine what a great contributor you would be to any DV project or the like if there is such a thing in your area and if you felt it was right for you.
However, maybe you’ve contributed ‘enough already’ and should spend the rest of your life frivolously enjoying yourself as much as possible (personally I think this might be a good option too!!!!)
Anyway – I do appreciate your comment about the ‘dark side’ of adventure. My ‘fools rush in’ approach to adventure when I was a much younger women led me to meet murderers, drug dealers and other unsavouries. I was so naive I thought they wouldn’t hurt me because ‘they had no reason to’. The fact that I didn’t get hurt led me to believe I was ‘untouchable’ rather than (excuse my language) f***ing lucky. This probably wasn’t very healthy!!!
Now I know better!!
Blessings
Delta 1 xx
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 2:33pm
OxDrover says:
Oh, yes, I met some of those too….dated some of them….thought I was untouchable as well. Wasn’t but I thought so. Partly typical teen aged arrogance, OH, the Shame of looking back at some of the things I THOUGHT I knew as a teenager and younger 20s. LOL My husband who was quiet a bit older than I am (15 yrs) knew me back in those days (we were just working together) and I was one night with a group of his/our friends EXPOUNDING in all my 18-yr-old-wisdom on some global problem or other and I remember with a head shake and a sigh how AWFUL I was! I said something to him years after we married about “How could you tolerate me then?” LOL He laughed and said “Yea, you were an arrogant teenager, but you were so CUTE ABOUT IT!” LOL
I was also F-ing LUCKY that I wasn’t murdered or worse! I was hanging out in Hollywood CA in the mid 60s among the hippies and drug and speed freaks and other bad cultures. At the least I should have gotten hooked on drugs or something. I skirted that issue though I did smoke my share of pot. Fortunately I DID have my ADULT friends there who kept a sort of eye on me to keep me safe and for fall back if I needed it. They had all been on the trips to Africa and South America as either employees of or business partners with my sperm donor andn I think part of it was they just felt sorry for anyone with him for a relative!
I think that the genetic tendency for risk taking (they’ve apparently found the genes) and the quest for excitement and novelty makes us also more attracted to the Ps out there rather than the settled dull and boring guys that might be a better risk.
Psychopaths also tend to be big risk takers and have that adolescent lack of fear or caution that we fortunately GREW OUT OF and they didn’t. I am probably one of THE most cautious people in the world as far as safety is concerned. I still do things that could prove dangerous (like working with livestock) but I take every precautionn to make sure it is done as safely as possible. No rodeos for me. No keeping animals around that TRY to hurt you. No second chances for violence with animals, if they are violent and or aggressive, they are DEAD. The only exception I make is for a cow protecting a new born calf that she thinks is being threatened.
Other than that if you hook, kick or bite ONE time, it’s annie get yer gun, we’re butchering something tonight! My son calls it the “bigger and meaner rule.” An animal can be bigger than me, or meaner than me, but NOT BOTH!” LOL
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Monday, 5 July 2010 @ 2:51pm