When women are sociopaths/psychopaths
PDF Nearly all of the research into sociopathy has involved evaluating the personality traits of adult men in prison. The reason for this is that researchers have easy access to adult prisoners and more prisoners are male. Think about it—how else would a researcher find sociopaths to study? The problem with studying sociopathy in male prisoners is that we learn nothing about sociopaths who never get arrested. We also don’t know if the research results apply to women.
There is actually very little research data available regarding sociopathy in non-criminals and in women. The little research that has been done reveals that sociopathy in women entails two or three main features that are similar to those found in men. Namely, female sociopaths lack empathy and enjoy manipulating and exploiting others. Violent and impulsive behavior is less common in sociopathic women. This fact may make them more dangerous, as they more easily blend in with the rest of society.
The key traits of sociopathic females
A recent study of adolescent girls in detention performed by Crystal L. Schrum, M.A. and Randall T. Salekin, Ph.D. of the University of Alabama and reported in Behavioral Sciences and the Law, revealed the core qualities that best described young female sociopaths. The teens were callous and lacked empathy, had a grandiose sense of self worth and were conning and manipulative. They were also likely to engage in impersonal sexual relationships. Importantly, the researchers revealed that female sociopaths did not necessarily have “shallow emotions.” Again the lack of impulsivity and shallow emotions may make a female sociopath more difficult to spot.
Please read the true Lovefraud story of Michelle Drake. Notice that female sociopaths victimize other women as well as men. This vignette illustrates many of the core qualities of a female sociopath. As I read this case, I was painfully reminded of the male sociopath who was once part of my life; so perhaps the similarities between male and female sociopaths are more important than the differences. What struck me about the story is the elaborate con she perpetrated for really very little money. This case illustrates something truly amazing about sociopaths—the degree to which they derive pleasure from conning others. Their hoaxes are often outlandish and grandiose.
A friend of mine, who was once in law enforcement, says that conning is the sociopath’s profession and that that he/she may not even do it for the money. Conning is instead the work they have a passion for. As my friend says, “When a sociopath wakes up and opens his eyes in the morning, it’s show time!” I can envision Michelle saying that to herself as she donned the fake pregnancy costume.
The public and the courts are sympathetic toward female sociopaths
The case of Michelle Drake also illustrates something else about female sociopaths. The courts are more likely to go easy on them. This attitude of the courts may reflect the fact that many people excuse the behavior of female sociopaths and feel sorry for them. Look at the cases of women in the news lately. We don’t know if the women involved are sociopaths, however, these cases do illustrate the double standard that exists in how we judge female as opposed to male antisocial behavior. Several women teachers have been found guilty of sexually exploiting students. They were treated very leniently for the same crimes that would have put a man in jail for many years.
The NASA astronaut arrested for attempted murder is another example of the way people treat women differently and don’t take their crimes seriously. This week, a restaurant owner in Florida held a benefit night to raise money for the astronaut’s family. News commentators have been quick to voice sympathy for the astronaut, yet I have not heard a one express sympathy for the victim. I remind you that it is alleged that the astronaut sprayed her victim with mace and planned to kill her.
In conclusion, sociopathy is less common in women. Women who are sociopaths may not appear as shallow as men who are sociopaths. They are also less angry and impulsive compared to men. Although violence is less commonly perpetrated by women, if you are the victim, these statistics don’t matter.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Dear onemorevictim,
Welcome to LoveFraud! I am glad you are here and found your way out of the relationship with that predator! It is really good when men are strong enough and open enough to come here and share their stories. I know there are so many more men who are victimized by these creatures who don’t really know what “train wreck” hit them, or figure it out!
Again, please stick around, I think having men here is so good for Love Fraud, as well as for the other men who come here to read and don’t feel as open as you do about sharing. Sharing what we know about these creatures is so helpful to us all! Again, welcome!
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Rosa says:
Hi OneMoreVictim:
Thank GOD you did not marry her.
My brother is married to one, and it’s a pathetic situation.
Consider yourself blessed that you got away, and never had children with her.
You are now free to move on to healthier relationships.
And you also have some valuable insights about what NOT to fall for ever again.
Welcome.
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Buttons says:
{{Onemorevictim}} Gotta change that site ID! We are “victims” as long as we continue to tolerate the games that these people play when we know that they will only continue to harm us. You are a Survivor, Onemore, and it’s a very good thing to be.
Female spaths are (WERE) much more difficult for me to detect because I never considered that women would want to inflict the same type of damage that their male counterparts did. But, this is just not the case. I recently had my own experience with a female spath (former friend) and I was shocked to see so many CLEAR indications that she fit the profile early on.
This is an excellent site to learn, heal, and help educate others through your own experiences, Onemore. But, I have to say, change the ID!
Brightest blessings!
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frontporchtalker says:
I am responding to your subject: “when women are sociopaths” and Identity theft
I am a woman who was the victim of a woman sociopath. I’ll call her MP I am a well-educated person, formerly a college professor and a writer. Somehow, I thought that I was “too smart” to be taken by a sociopath.
I was badly mistaken. I would like to tell my story, if your blog will permit this new subject. Let me say that I am so grateful for all of your stories on this subject: I thought I was crazy!
Thanks,
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blueskies says:
Hi Frontporchtalker. sorry you have to be here:(
Not sure you have to wait to be invited to share your story…I say go ahead.x
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OxDrover says:
Der Frontporchtalker,
Pull up a rocking chair, fix yourself a cup of tea and share your story with us. There are a GREAT MANY really smart and well educated folks here, so you are in great company as well.
I’m sorry you have need to join our “club” but if you have a relationship with one of these monsters, this is the best group of folks to help you heal, and there is wonderful knowledge and inishgt here in the many archived articles. So pull up a chair, and again, WELCOME!!!!
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hens says:
Frontporchtalker – Welcome, please tell us about this female sociopath ‘michelle’ BTW I love your username.!~
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Donna Andersen says:
Front Porch Talker,
Feel free to tell your story either by posting it as a comment or sending it to me in an e-mail – donna@lovefraud.com.
Please don’t include any identifying information.
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hens says:
Welcome – Onemorevictim.
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ErinBrock says:
Frontporchtalker:
Welcome to LF…..there is so much information ans support here to lift you out of the hell.
They are certainly a mind blower…….and guess what…..we all fall for em.
Smart, rich, poor, educated/uneducated, pretty, nice car or not……Once a spath identifies YOU….and what ‘you’ can give them……they are like leeches…..they suck right on until you notice them sucking.
I look forward to hearing more from you…..welcome to LF.
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ErinBrock says:
Onemorevictim:
Welcome to LF.
Stick around and you’ll gain insight from the posters and other articles.
It’s a long journey to trust again…..but it’s doable.
You’ve got a good start landing up here with the knowlege you came with…..
Again, welcome to LF.
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frontporchtalker says:
Jeez, I feel honored to be in the company to such honorable folks.
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frontporchtalker says:
So, let the healing begin!
ha, haa.
I love your humor here too…..it’s saved my life.
Literally…………
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ErinBrock says:
Frontporchtalker:
This is a serve yourself kinda place…..so head on over and grab a cup o java……and fill us in!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Front porch talker,
Yea, I agree with you about the dividing in to paragraphs, but I am the QUEEN of the RUN-ON-SENTENCE so I guess I should not complain about the writing styles of others! Mrs. Barlow never did get me to stop with the run-on-sentences!
Glad you arrived here at our little Oasis in the world of the psychopaths that we have all escaped from—well, more or less, and some more wounded than others, but we are all climbing up on the road to healing and trying to work our way throught the abyss and the pot holes, and not get lured off the road by the Siren Song of the psychopaths trying to distract us.l
There are lots of turns on the paths, and sometimes the signs aren’t clearly marked, or we fall into despair of a pity party for a while, but there are some great folks here and we all love a good yarn. Especially since these yarns are BETTER THAN FICTION and they are true, no one who hadn’t lived one of these yarns would even comprehend that TRUTH IS MUCH STRANGER THAN FICTION. My therapist thought I was a paranoid delusional nut job until I brought in court documents and a witness to testify that I wasn’t imagining that “everyone is out to kill me.” LOL
Erin Brock was diging up her yard cause she thought her x had buried cans of drug money there….and when he was arrested for interstaste transport of drugs, who knows, she might be right, but unfortunately hasn’t found any of the money yet!
Henry keeps a loaded paintball gun by his door and sleeps with 3 weiner dogs, and I keep a hog-leg pistol under my Bible on my bed, so we are defintely a DIVERSE GROUP of folks, with MDs, college profs, professional artists, writers, jouranlists, lawyers, medical personnel, therapists, etc. you name it there are one or two of us here. We are skinny, fat, old and young, parents, no kids, gay, straight, not sure, Christian and atheists and every thing in between. But we are all well aware of what damage a psychopath can do to even the strongest of us if we don’t take care of ourselves.
So again, get off your mule,” light and hitch, pull up your rocker and set a while” we’re all ears!
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frontporchtalker says:
Couldn’t we at least have some sweet iced tea and boiled peanuts (virtual, of course), or maybe somebody could shuck some corn, so I wouldn’t feel so self-conscious about telling my story? ha, ha.
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frontporchtalker says:
Okay, I’ll try to just tell the Narrative, at least Part One of the story, without too much of my smarty-pants humor. Are y’all comfy on the front porch?
It’s gonna be a long, bumpy ride…ha, ha!!!!
okay, okay, get with it.
Wait: i need a fresh piece of paper first (recycled of course), and my fountain pen,….
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frontporchtalker says:
My Life with a Sociopath(s): A Narrative, PART ONE
I first met a woman whom I’ll call “MP” about 12 years ago, while I was attending Alanon, a 12-step program for FAMILIES of alcoholics.
MP was in A.A. as well, and had just moved to town, 300 miles away from her home town, where her 2 teenaged girls were living with her ex-husband–he had custody! (RED FLAG) They also didn’t like their mother.
MP used “recovery” as a cover for herself, so I would be more likely to trust her. She reminded me of my own mother who’d just died of alcoholism (as well as my father)…the disease runs rampant in my family, except for me.
I was the perfect profile of a victim: I was “codependent” and “people-pleaser,” and a person who prided myself on my high moral grounds.
MP, it turned out later, also fit the profile of my abusive alcoholic mother. Like my mother’s drunken rages against me and the emotional abuse, MP knew how to use rage to control me.
MP had what I never had: FAMILY! I was her friend for a couple of years and had my own family, or so I thought. It was my weakness. I was never in love with her: but she exuded family, unless you count that her daughters, who came to live with her, seemed to hate her.
My other weakness: humor! It didn’t matter that I wasn’t in love with MP, in any sense of the word, she filled an empty void in me: humor and family.
And, she always complimented me and had demanded that her teens treat me with utmost respect because of high standards of morality.
I mean by that I felt compassion for MP and felt survivor’s guilt
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frontporchtalker says:
One more thing (as always) as I read your post, especially from you, OxDrover and Erin Brock, I was amazed about the part where people thought you were delusional and psychotic…..me too!
I was committed for 2 weeks against my will, because I told a doctor that I’d written the F.B.I. (Id Theft) because of my case. The doctor, AND my “best friend” had me committed bc they thought I had imaginary delusions that “I wrote the F.B.I. about—that somebody was trying to steal my identity!” ha, ha.
You’re just never the same when your own good friend thinks you’re just being a little “paranoid” about things—and that you should just get over it all. Well, this friend had committed her father (who had schizophrenia) so to her, I was just “mentally unbalanced.”
That was the worst day of my life.
Anyway, your posts about your own experiences of people thinking you were delusional really ring true with me! Ring, ring, ring!!!!
bravo…let the healing begin…. I finally feel understood….
Well, cowpoke, you can jist call me ‘Wishbone’ from that old cowboy show where they sit around the fire and chew the fat.
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silvermoon says:
I would guess leo that you have a venus in leo in your chart making your grand idea of romance something that you need to suffer for and fight for. For your valiant effort for the underdog and tryig to love someone you didn’t.
I am sorry for your story. It sounds like a tough one.
All of these stories are hard. And it comes way later that there is anything to laugh about.
My story as weird as any but shorter, (thank God) than most.
He is a guest now of Uncle Sam’s God Love him and keep him but lie no more to me…..I guess bigamy is considered a pretty foul insult and the good news is I think there was only one other lawfully wedded but we don’t know for sure. There is no central database so some poor woman may be out there thinking he is hers committed and committed to care for.
I wonder how long until she shows up here. I’d be the first to reach out. He was convincing. Charming. Romantic. A wonderful lover and a fantastic liar.
All good I guess until the boys with m16′s showed up. Wished I’d decided to put on my jeans instead of wandering out of bed into the kitchen that morning for coffee- but HEY! Who was expecting company?
We’d only been married six weeks!
Gotta love the good guys!
I like to say that its probrably true that after 15 years with a N and all the physical and psychological destruction that was about, after listening to years of I love me, when the psychopath came along and said I love you, I went down like a brick.
Sigh.
But down the road a bit from it all, it turns out all that matters is letting go. And sooner is better in order not to carry around a burden. Its work, but its worth it.
Cry when you have to but moreover look for that balance of peace and understanding that lets you move forward. You’ll find pointers and advice here and a supportive community.
Hang tough. You’ve been on a rough road. It does smooth out. It does.
We’ll be right here.
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frontporchtalker says:
WOW How did you know I have Venus in Leo? in fact, all my planets are in Leo and virgo. Not a good sign…
I will read your post now and comment after I’ve rested.
5 planets in Leo is pathetic..
I was just reading Donna’s “profile” section about sociopaths boasting about all their knowledge: philosophy, psychology..etc. but it’s superficial knowledge they have.
Also: I turned to those subjects because I had to intellectually understand WHY, but of course there was NO rhyme or reason….
I promise to write more about your great post later.
frontporchtalker
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shabbychic says:
FPT, Your profile of the perfect victim fits me to a “T”.
We were walking around with a big bullseye on our foreheads!
I was involved with a narcissist for 14 years who was funny,
a real hoot, and at the time I thought he was
a real blast to be around, now I realize everything we did
was for him + he had a lot of family, I miss them.
Anyway, the red flags, easy to ignore then, not so easy now.
Especially easy to ignore when your mom was not there to
teach you, in fact you probably learned that bad behavior
was something you had to live with.
I love Adirondak chairs, wish we were all on a big porch
talking together, sipping our tea! That would be so cool.
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Uncle Peter says:
Hello, this is the first time I have posted on here although I have spent a lot of time just looking. I guess it’s the topic that attracted me as I was married to two seperate psychopaths. Slow learner.
Anyway, the problem I have had for years is the stigma of being the victim. The police attitude, at least from males, is “Can’t you control your woman?” I am not joking, I have had that said to me. Female officers sem to have a lot more empathy, but that is probably due to being women and knowing what it feels like.
It has been my experience that the police will use every trick in the book to get out of dealing with something like this. I know of one case where the husband kept a log book and pictures etc. of what his “dearly beloved” was doing. The police tried to accuse the husband with being a stalker. If it weren’t for a very good lawyer the poor guy would have ended up in jail.
The other issue I have is that there are many safe homes for women and their children and Lord knows we need them. Try to look up a safe home for men. Not a chance. After having a knife stuck in your back while your asleep makes a safe home look like a great idea.
Anyway, as you can see I am quite angry about the whole mess and I do not want to “dump” on people here. Thanks for reading and allowing me a chance to vent.
BTW People may wonder how to get rid of stalking nut bars. Real easy and I’m serious. Tell them you just figured out your gay. Women are appalled they are losing their “man” to another man. Unfortunately that doesn’t work for women with a male psychopath. The male would want to watch you have sex with another woman.
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frontporchtalker says:
perfect, but make that either sweet tea or espresso (double) for me!
I’ll respond more later.
who loves Adirondak chairs—I do, I do!
In one of the “scientific” articles it discusses the odd language that sociopaths use. They say “conscious” when they mean “conscientious,” etc.
They have a superficial understanding of many things, but no understanding beyond what they’ve heard on Dr. Phil, or on Oprah.
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blueskies says:
Hi FPT:) Thanks for sharing your story. I know how stressful it can be to try and unravel things enough to explain!
with regards to acronyms, I think these are the most common:
N = Narcissist
P = Psychopath
SP = Sociopath
DIL = Daughter-in-Law
ED = ‘Egg Doner’ ( a toxic mother)
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blueskies says:
(Les Misérables – sorry! I couldn’t resist! I am sleep deprived!;)x
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blueskies says:
Uncle Peter – I am sorry you have to be here. I hope it will help though.x
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silvermoon says:
Les Mis- the BEST!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuffHRacZMQ
Lets see what the morrow brings us all!
Vive la liberte from disorder!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Talker,
Well, I thought ErinB and I were the BIGGEST smart mouths on the blog, but I think you might be gonna run us a race! Glad you are here, and glad you feel comfortable in this company!
I’ve never been in any al-anon or AA meethings except as a professional visitor in in-patient settings, but I have sure met some psychopaths that used “recovery” as a COVER for their abuse of others. They seem to use the “recovery” llike others use “church” where everyone has to “forgive” you when you “sin.” Where is the PUKE emoticon when you need one.
I’m sure you’ve heard the term “dry drunk”—my egg donor’s brother, I call him Uncle MONSTER, was a really miserable and violent drunk and the strain goes back to the early 1800s and who knows how much before THAT! The women all being enablers, the men abusers.
Anyway, glad you are here, but sorry you have a “need to be” or is it a “right to be?” Anyway, again, Welcome!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Uncle Peter,
Welcome to LF and glad you found us. This is an equal opportunity place to heal. I agree with you about the “safe house” bit too, and the stuff I am hearing now is that even women, if they don’t have children, are having hard times getting into shelters now because of the economy. Also with the economy what it is, finding a job before your “alloted time” runs out is another hurdle.
I have a son, who is in prison,, but he has stalked me from there (sending his friends) and I am learning about how to “hide in plain sight”—I bought some information a couple of years ago from a private investigator, and in the meantime hid out in an RV until the Trojan HOrse Psychopath my P-son had sent went to prison for trying to kill one of my other sons.
I’ve also been working on learning the ropes of how to NOT leave a paper or internet trail to where ever I have to go to the next time I have to run. I’m no longer living in TERROR but do live VERY cautiously.
I’m also finding out that I’ve done a LOT of things wrong, and that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of information easily and freely and no cost available on the internet about me, who I am associated with, and ya da ya da. I Can’t undo that information spill any more than BP can suck up all the oil out there, but hopefully I can CAP IT so that no more stuff gets out there.
One of the things I did find was that hiding in PLAIN SIGHT is easier than I thought, as you are not hiding from the FBI but just from nosey neighbors, so hide where there are others coming and going on a regular basis so you don’t incite curiosity by your very presence. I bought an RV and parked it next to a lake on a friend’s land. NO utilities in my name, scabbed on to his. My son didn’t know this man so would have no way to connnect my name to him.
Also, there are 100 other things you can do to protect your NAME being associated with your actual LOCATION. There are some good books out there, good internet sites and some not so good. I just finished a couple recently and wijll be doing a book review on them before long.
BE PREPARED if you are being stalked is the best advice I can give anyone. Have a “grab and go” bag with cash, papers, etc. or whatever you might need if you have to leave and NOT come back for (how long?)
Anyway, sorry you have to feel at home here Peter, but since you do “qualify” for our club, it’s a good one! Hang around. God bless.
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Psyche says:
Dear Uncle Peter,
It’s true, female psychopaths present a lot of challenges that men, in general, are not capable of dealing with (including policemen).
I deal with one at my workplace. All the men LOVE her, because she love bombs them, non stop, and speaks with confidence, praise, certainty, authority etc etc. Meanwhile, I get all the knives in my back, because she perceives me as a threat to the attention she wants, and the men are too witless to get how a female spath operates.
That said, I think men have it in them to want to protect women on some level, so that even if a cop doesn’t get that a woman’s married to a sociopath, a male cop will still often seem more willing to deal with it on *some* level, as opposed to no level at all, even if they just think half of her concerns are just based on the imaginings of her ‘pretty, neurotic, paranoid little head’. And here I’m generalizing, knowing full well that there are exceptions to this – just speaking from my experience, and on the basis of what a policeman/friend of mine tells me about his job. I do see that male victims of female spaths have a not-so-great set of circumstances to deal with if they do seek protection from civic authorities.
not sure I got this right, did you mean that you told your ex female spath that you were gay, and it got her to stop trying to abuse you? that sounds great!
Psyche
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Twice Betrayed says:
My younger daughter is really showing P behavior. I need some help on this, please. My daughter is involved with a rock band [while her husband is away working] and she is dragging my 3 year old GD to these drunken concerts and bars. Keeping her up while she’s sick and hanging in front of the stage with the music blaring in her little ears. I had a major war with her last night over this. I had to turn my little GD over to my daughter at a bar!!!!! I had kept her and she made me bring her to her thinking she was going home and instead she takes her into the bar with her crying for me. The dad is a wuss and most likely will do nothing. Does anyone have any help for me? Thanks!
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bluejay says:
Twice Betrayed,
I dont’ no how to advise. If I were in your shoes, it would be heartwrenching to walk away from the child, knowing that’s not an appropriate place for your granddaughter. When I read your post, I thought, thank God she has this woman as a grandmother. I would want to raise hell with the daughter (but we know she’s not listening), like you did. Could you have refused to hand her over? Possibly, even if the father is a wuss, I would tell him what occurred (making it plain how upset your were by the situation) and hopefully, he will act on behalf of his daughter’s well-being.
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OxDrover says:
Call child services—it might make things worse though, you know the routine! I’m so sorry this carp is happening to you, TB. ((((hugs)))))
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silvermoon says:
Twice,
Why don’t you just offer to take the child full time and let the daughter do her thing and visit when she can. A P would probrbably jump all over that arrangement- she gets to go do what she feels like she needs to.
And after a period of doing your homework, you can probrably make the arrangement legal with or without her cooperation….
The answer to taking a sick three year old to a bar is NO.
The answer is the child can stay here tonight and you can come tomorrow.
Its easier for everyone that way. No harm, no foul.
You’d better have a sit down with the wuss and I would advise in the prescence of a therapist.
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Rosa says:
Twice Betrayed:
It’s futile to get into a major war with a psychopathic mother over the welfare of the grandchild, because psychopaths don’t care about the welfare of their children.
One thing I’ve learned from my own family situation is that when you are dealing with a psychopathic mother, you have to make it all about HER, not the child.
I know, this goes against human nature, and it takes a lot of self-discipline.
Because, our first instinct is to always put the welfare of the child above everything else.
But, psychopathic mothers are ultra-selfish, and if she knows it makes you crazy that your granddaughter is in the bars, she will continue doing it.
If I were in your position, I would tell the daughter that she needs some time to herself, and you would be happy to watch granddaugher for the night (or weekend) while Mommy “goes out and has some fun for a change”.
Tell the daughter that she works too hard and deserves a break, even if it is NOT TRUE.
Who cares?!?!?
Hell, give her some $$ to go have a facial and pedicure….whatever it takes!!!!
Keep your daughter busy doing what she wants, so you can keep the granddaughter with you.
Is this enabling??? YES, OF COURSE IT IS, BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE A CHILD’S LIFE HERE!!
Sometimes we have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.
The good news is the child is NOT going to be 3 years old forever.
Your goal is to have the granddaughter with YOU as much as possible during these critical years, and not in the bars.
This is going to require a little sociopath-ness on your part Twice Betrayed, only you are doing it in the name of GOOD, not evil.
My advice is to get creative, and make this work for you.
That’s what my Mom and I are doing with my little niece.
I saw my niece 3 times this week.
It’s not going to work everytime.
But, sometimes it does….and it definitely never hurts to try.
Good Luck to you, Twice Betrayed.
I can definitely relate to your pain and frustration.
P.S. How often does Child Services take a child away from its biological mother???
Almost never.
The poor child would have to be practically dead for that to happen.
I’m not trying to be negative.
That’s just a cold fact of life, and the way our system “works”.
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Psyche says:
Twice Betrayed,
If your daughter is a P, your daughter will do one thing: whatever she wants.
You can get her to want to do what you want if you play your cards right. And I do think it will take some ‘mind games’ to do it, but if you’re telling the truth when you ‘play’ them, you’ll have solid ground to stand on.
Most likely she already thinks of her daughter as a burden, and just puts on a show of caring about her whenever necessary. And she’ll always find ways to rationalize why she doesn’t really need to take care of her daughter properly. Just HELP her do all of that rationalizing, and get the child to safer hands in the process. Feed her self-serving logic, because that’s what she’s all about.
To feed your daughter’s fundamental selfishness for potentially good results, you can talk about things that will appeal to her like : how hard it is to have a little one on your hands as a young woman. How can she ever feel ‘free’ again, it must feel like such a burden, no? Doesn’t she want to go out without having to deal with anything but having fun? – it’s her right to have fun, after all!! Tell her she ought to do what everyone else does, use a babysitter. And if she has no money for one … well, that’s where you can come in
The truth that you’re catering to is the one about what she really wants, which is to do whatever she wants, however she wants. The truth that you’re conveniently omitting is that you think your daughter has no business doing what she’s doing (taking her GD out like that). Telling that truth will only make matters worse for your GD, becuase that will just turn your GD into a pawn in a power-struggle between you and your daughter.
Not sure such specific tactics will work in your case, but you get the idea.
Basically – just
give her the excuses she needs to drop the responsibility that she doesn’t want anyway, and don’t let her know you care about your GD’s welfare!! You can omit that part without being dishonest. Definitely don’t let her know what you really care about. It’s only safe to share that kind of info. with people who can respect it.
All of this would translate into you needing to take a lot more care of your GD in the process, which sounds like it would be for the best if you possibly can do it. I haven’t seen all of your previous posts, am just hoping you’d have the ability to step in as often as possible.
But you seem to have shown your cards, and your daughter knows that you’re upset by her behavior. You’ll have to find a way to get her off her guard now. Play dumb for a while, and your daughter may slip back into her self-obsessed sociopathic fog. The sad truth is that if she knows something upsets you, she’ll just do it more. Don’t let her know what you feel.
Psyche
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Psyche says:
just thought of something else Twice
You may be better able to get your daughter to want to get a babysitter (hopefully you) if you find your daughter’s trigger/shame-buttons:
Depending on where your daughter feels most vulnerable, it may help to mention things like:
-everyone else at the bars seem to have a babysitter (if jealousy is a powerful motivator for her).
-everyone at the bar must wonder why she can’t afford a babysitter (if she likes people to think that she’s financially stable).
Whatever you say, say it casually and drop it, like it’s not an important thought to you, generally. If you can find a way to be indirect, so much the better. If you can sandwich the comments into another discussion, even better. But design the comment so that you strike where you’re most likely to get the reaction you want, which is for her to want to not bring that poor child out with her the way she does. Take dead aim on her primary vulnerability, whatever it might be (jealousy, status, etc.).
Hope that helps, I’ve never been good at doing stuff like that, but I’ve seen others use it with success.
Psyche
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Twice Betrayed says:
Thanks for all your help! However, I’ve tried all of that. I cannot get my daughter to allow me to keep the baby more than a few hours no matter how much I suck up to her. I’ve offered her everything I know…care, vacation, bribes [she has her husband so browbeaten he can't/ won't stand up to her]. I’ve offered to just keep the kid while she parties. Made it like a vacation for her etc…no go. She sees this child as a power play over all of her family and she loves every minute of it. She won’t even so much as put ear plugs in this baby’s ears while she is hanging out with her in front of a band acting like some groupie whore in front of all those loud speakers! I try to give her earplugs and she threw them on the floor. Finally security forced her to put plugs in the baby’s ears. This daughter of mine is insane! I’ve tried every ploy I know short of contacting child services, which is NOT going to be better or even work for that matter. My daughter keeps a good home, fully stocked fridge, toys galore etc….but thinks taking this baby to concerts and open bars is ok, and hanging with other men while her husband is away. I am panicked for this child’s safety.
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Psyche says:
I think the tactics might have worked if she didn’t know how much of a struggle you’re willing to be involved in, to get her to do the right thing. I think if she thought you didn’t care about the GD, she wouldn’t care to do all that she’s doing. So she’s on to your true feelings and concerns, which means trouble (she’ll just enjoy messing with them to the extent that she can).
The tricks could have worked if she didn’t know what you really wanted. But she wants to make sure you don’t have what you want.
I’m sorry, I’m not sure what to do once this happens. Now you can see that your GD is just a pawn in the power play, which is all meant to drive you nuts, or worse. I don’t know what to do with that, but will think about it, and keep you and your GD in my prayers in the meantime.
I can see why you’re panicked, it does not look at all good. I picture your poor little GDs ears, and her cries, and what it means to have a mother that does not love you, and it breaks my heart. I’ll keep thinking . . . .
Psyche
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Twice Betrayed says:
Psyche: I appreciate your prayers!!!!
Yeah, my daughter is evil just like her father!!!! Bad wicked. And what is so sad is, she was sweet just like her daughter when she was little. I do feel my daughter loves to drive people, especially me, nuts and as you say, worse.
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Twice Betrayed says:
When my older daughter tried to reason with my daughter last night this is what my daughter wrote to me today when I asked to keep the GD. Quote:” I can’t turn my child over to insanity. Willingly or unwillingly. Keep the clawing bitch out of my face and you can still visit GD. Bring more drama in my life- ya gotta leave. It’s that easy.”
See how the GD is a power play for her? And I must accept my daughter’s terms or the GD is jerked away from me.
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Twice Betrayed says:
Oh boy, after rereading this, I fear now, that pushing my daughter to try and take this GD from her might result in her going full blown psychotic……and that leaves me wondering what she might do. And possibly she is enjoying cruelly toying with my mind/emotions in this area as well. Wicked beyond!
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OxDrover says:
Dear TB,
Darling, there is NO limit to what they will do to punish us for not giving them supply. They will use their own children as weapons to beat us with. Before I had ever heard the word psychopath I saw families usiing children as baseball bats to go at each other like rabid Hell’s Angels. Not caring how the children were splintered and broken.
As difficult as it is to DO, some how you have to take a note out of Rosa’s play book if you want to be in contact with the GD.
If there is anything/one that you care about and THEY CONTROL your access to it, you can bet your bottom dollar they will use it as both a carrot and a stick to get you to do what they want you to. The ONLY defense you really have is to decide what you will “endure” in exchange for contact with that person or thing. Sometimes the price gets too high.
My egg donor used to hold out her approval as a bait for me, then her disapproval as a stick to punish me, but it finally got to the point that I couldn’t pay the PRICE any more. It is I guess like teasing a dog with a bone, eventually even a dog will realize that they are not going to ever actually give it to you so you quit wanting or expecting to get it and quit reaching for it.
When it comes to a child that you love, I think that is the most PAINFUL thing someone could do to you AND the child. Creampuff is in that situation with her Grandkids because of her own P dtr and step dtr, and passive aggressive husband.
I know she is starting to come to grips with it, and then there are all these young women with babies and x-husband Ps and the problems they have for decades. To say nothing of those of us like you, me, Gem, Creampuff, etc etc who have adult children that have already broken our hearts and continue to try to (or worse)—-sometimes it is chokingly awful to even imagine how much pain these excuses for humans can inflict on others without a single backward glance.
About all any of us can do I think is to keep on praying for each other and hang in there. I don’t know how I would have sorted half this carp out without you guys there. You might not have been able to tell me what to do to “fix” something, but I sure knew you knew how I felt! ((((hugs)))) and prayers for us all.
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Twice Betrayed says:
Hi Oxy,
Thanks for responding! I have tried every avenue I know with this daughter right down to just saying, “Go have some fun and party, but let me play with my GD…it’s like having you little again and I enjoy it.” No go. She does not intend on ever letting me keep her much. And….believe it or not, she told my older daughter why. Because she will never risk that GD loving me more than her. I asked to just allow my GD to come here and stay with me for awhile and nope. She calculatingly replied, I could “visit” with my GD. See how clever and aware she is and how she loves to cause trouble. She feeds on it. One thing that worries me is, I have had so much stress that my health is poor now. I don’t feel well most of the time due to all the stress related trauma and I don’t know what to do about that either, since it never lets up. I divorced the PX but cannot divorce my children. I am exhausted. Also, she enjoys playing on married men and breaking up their homes.
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Twice Betrayed says:
PS….thanks for all the hugs and prayers! I am so grateful to have this place and you all! Please pray for my GD! Thank you!
Love,
TB
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Hopeforjoy says:
Dear Twice Betrayed,
I’m so sorry to hear about the situation with your daughter. She does not seem to have a conscience in how she treats you and her own daughter. There is something wrong with people who wish to hurt you deliberately. All of us hurt people in our lives by saying something insensitive, etc. but what your daughter is doing is malicious and wrong.
The way you are feeling right now has taken it’s toll on your health and well being, you need to make sure you care for yourself first. That way you are better able to care for GD. Unfortuately it comes down to what is in your control and what is out of your control. Do you want to play her game to be able to have some influence in your precious grand daughters life? Having a stable, loving grand mother will help your GD see how a healthy person behaves. Someone who loves her unconditionally will help fend off the possiblity of her becoming a disordered adult. You might have to play the game and let her think she is winning. That way you are able to still see GD and be a positive part of her life.
It breaks my heart that your GD could be used as a pawn in some sick game of control and manipulation. What is with these people? I never knew there were so many hurtful, evil people in the world.
Psyche and Oxy had some good advice, I hope the situation changes soon with your GD. Social services may have to be called eventually.
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geminigirl says:
Dearest TB, Yes, they really know how to put the boot in, and torture us with their own kids. Really, all you can do is to pray lik mad for that dear little girl. Ask the Lord to put a hedge of protection around her, and do this every day.Ask that she be shielded from emotional, mental and physical harm, from the top of her head to the soles of her feet. Ask that her 5 senses be protected. Ask the healing Angels, from the heirarchies of Raphael, Michael,& Zadkiel protect her, day and night. {Raphael, is the Archangel of healing, Michael is the warrior Angel.}If you do this every day, no harm can come to her.
Blessings and Love, Mama GemXX
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frontporchtalker says:
I have read all your comments and stories. I know I will have much more to say, later on. Right now, it drains me to simply tell my own story.
Please forgive me..
So, As the Sociopath turns’ continues now, like the bad soap opera that it is!
PART 2: My life with a sociopath: “MP”
As I said in my other Part 2 (which should have been Part 1),
Like my alcoholic mother, MP could be very funny. But later on, as I got to know her, she could be very abusive, as well.
They both had addiction problems, although unlike my mother MP had professed to be “in recovery.” They both had had numerous bad marriages, affairs, etc.
Years later, I thought MP might have Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). But, she was much too cunning and calculating for that, unlike my mother who was mostly a “victim” of the men in her life.
My mother had been a black-out drunk for many years, the last five of her life, she’d been completely on a “liquid” diet.
MP went with me to see my mother in her last days–
One night, she disappeared in the middle-of the-night—which she would do more and more of as the years went by. I was frantic. When she showed-up at my beach motel the next morning she simply told me that she’d “gotten lost.”
She was explosive, just as my mother was, during a black-out. I was terrified of MP’S rages in the same way too. Something seemingly small would send her into a red-hot tantrum.
I know now that MP was a bona fide sociopath/psychopath—maybe you’ll agree as the story escalates.
Then, she would abandon me, break-up, leave, take the credit cards (mine), have an affair.
The Gas lighting would begin, although I didn’t know that term back then. It’s where that person convinces you that it is you who is crazy and unreasonable, for some small mistake or doubt you had.
She both had me “hooked” and was jealous, on the one hand. (She hated a friend of mine, “MO”). On the other hand, she abandoned me, suddenly, without warning, leaving me without resources, blaming me.
I’d have a panic-attack, hyperventilating and sobbing, and PTSD—horrible episodes. But MP would coldly walk away as if she had never known me.
That was also like my mother, of course. During my teen days, I ran away from home, from 13- and for the final time at 16. I finished high-school with the help of my boyfreind’s family. I sent myself to college and Grad School, on my own.
My mother would have black-out rages and throw me out in the middle of a snowy winter night in the same way Mp did, without caring if I had a coat or gloves, or money to survive on.
The trip to visit my dying mother became a nightmare for me. Not only did I have to “choose” who would go down with me—Mp or Mo—(they wouldn’t go if the other one did), my mother was also dying!
was disappearing for hours at a time (and a night)—explaining it away as having a new Diagnosis: Narcolepsy! Later on, I’ll explain why that didn’t seem crazy to me at the time. Plus, I was terrified of her rages, which she never apologized for or explained to me.
My mother finally died. I was relieved, frankly, and sad too. I had terrible unresolved feelings about my mother, of course. It’s terrible when you love somebody who also has abused you. And worse, that person was your own mother.
MP and I returned to my town. (This was before she moved 300 miles back to the town she’d grown up in, where I eventually bought a house.)
MP was a character out of a Bette Davis movie. Around others, she was charming and well-spoken. But mostly, she slept and slept and slept. As I mentioned, she was on disability for several undefinable and other unexplained illnesses. She had chronic illnesses, which her family doubted. Of course, her family were all crazy addicts too, so it was hard to tell.
She “had” to take morphine, oxycontin, etc. all of which her doctors had prescribed to her. Who was I to doubt her doctors? This woman supposedly couldn’t move out of bed without med’s.
Being the codependent that I was, I covered Mp’s health insurance, so we had the same doctor. (in the end, she had the doctor convinced that I was the one who’d abused med’s!)
Of course, several of Mp’s doctors had lost their medical licenses for being too liberal with med’s. I will end this part with our last days in my city, before she moved back to her own hometown, 300 miles away (and I followed).
This whole story, as you will see, is one of betrayals and lack of integrity in every corner of my life. I was the only one I knew, save some close friends, who seemed to stand up for what was moral and right, and who would help a friend, for instance, if they were nearly homeless, like MP was. But, I digress.
I had no way out!
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frontporchtalker says:
p.s. I have been plagued since yesterday when was making fun of a man who called it “LA MISERABLE!”
But I, in my haste to be funny and clever, also misspelled it. ha, ha!
Your post was hilarious about this!
And for today, my fellow smarty-pants, I shall leave you with this soothing message, in latin, of course:
“NIL DESPERATUM!” (NO WORRIES!)
Wow! Just WHERE does the time go? Time flies when
you’re tres’ MISERABLE! HA, AH.(stupid smiley face goes here!)
“Nil
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