When women are sociopaths/psychopaths
PDF Nearly all of the research into sociopathy has involved evaluating the personality traits of adult men in prison. The reason for this is that researchers have easy access to adult prisoners and more prisoners are male. Think about it—how else would a researcher find sociopaths to study? The problem with studying sociopathy in male prisoners is that we learn nothing about sociopaths who never get arrested. We also don’t know if the research results apply to women.
There is actually very little research data available regarding sociopathy in non-criminals and in women. The little research that has been done reveals that sociopathy in women entails two or three main features that are similar to those found in men. Namely, female sociopaths lack empathy and enjoy manipulating and exploiting others. Violent and impulsive behavior is less common in sociopathic women. This fact may make them more dangerous, as they more easily blend in with the rest of society.
The key traits of sociopathic females
A recent study of adolescent girls in detention performed by Crystal L. Schrum, M.A. and Randall T. Salekin, Ph.D. of the University of Alabama and reported in Behavioral Sciences and the Law, revealed the core qualities that best described young female sociopaths. The teens were callous and lacked empathy, had a grandiose sense of self worth and were conning and manipulative. They were also likely to engage in impersonal sexual relationships. Importantly, the researchers revealed that female sociopaths did not necessarily have “shallow emotions.” Again the lack of impulsivity and shallow emotions may make a female sociopath more difficult to spot.
Please read the true Lovefraud story of Michelle Drake. Notice that female sociopaths victimize other women as well as men. This vignette illustrates many of the core qualities of a female sociopath. As I read this case, I was painfully reminded of the male sociopath who was once part of my life; so perhaps the similarities between male and female sociopaths are more important than the differences. What struck me about the story is the elaborate con she perpetrated for really very little money. This case illustrates something truly amazing about sociopaths—the degree to which they derive pleasure from conning others. Their hoaxes are often outlandish and grandiose.
A friend of mine, who was once in law enforcement, says that conning is the sociopath’s profession and that that he/she may not even do it for the money. Conning is instead the work they have a passion for. As my friend says, “When a sociopath wakes up and opens his eyes in the morning, it’s show time!” I can envision Michelle saying that to herself as she donned the fake pregnancy costume.
The public and the courts are sympathetic toward female sociopaths
The case of Michelle Drake also illustrates something else about female sociopaths. The courts are more likely to go easy on them. This attitude of the courts may reflect the fact that many people excuse the behavior of female sociopaths and feel sorry for them. Look at the cases of women in the news lately. We don’t know if the women involved are sociopaths, however, these cases do illustrate the double standard that exists in how we judge female as opposed to male antisocial behavior. Several women teachers have been found guilty of sexually exploiting students. They were treated very leniently for the same crimes that would have put a man in jail for many years.
The NASA astronaut arrested for attempted murder is another example of the way people treat women differently and don’t take their crimes seriously. This week, a restaurant owner in Florida held a benefit night to raise money for the astronaut’s family. News commentators have been quick to voice sympathy for the astronaut, yet I have not heard a one express sympathy for the victim. I remind you that it is alleged that the astronaut sprayed her victim with mace and planned to kill her.
In conclusion, sociopathy is less common in women. Women who are sociopaths may not appear as shallow as men who are sociopaths. They are also less angry and impulsive compared to men. Although violence is less commonly perpetrated by women, if you are the victim, these statistics don’t matter.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
shabbychic says:
FPT, that is quite a story. Sounds like Michelle treated you exactly the same way your mother did. Very sad. How are you feeling now? Maybe I shouldn’t ask that, I’ll just have to wait for the rest of the story!
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frontporchtalker says:
Bless your little heart for taking the time to listen to my rambling story.
I’ve just read all the comments and posts. I am truly impressed by y’all!
I don’t usually comment on others’ stories–just habit I guess– unless they ask for it. But I do read everything here.
I hereby give all of y’all permission to comment, ask questions, or call me on my s…t.! I don’t mind as long as it’s constructive.
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frontporchtalker says:
there should be no doubt, at least in my own case, that the codependent is nearly as crazy as the sociopath. We keep doing more and more, just to deny reality more and more, …
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blueskies says:
HI TB, your story makes my insides twist into a knot. BIG LOVES to you.xxxx Psyche, Oxy, and Rosa have great advice. My initial response was similar to Rosa in thinking that in order to be involved you will have to make it all about her, not your GD:(
I am in a situation with my Daughter that is different in that it’s the ED GM who is ‘using’ MY child as supply, as a tool to hurt me, and doing all she can to turn her into a greedy co-dependant baby its driving me nuts at the moment . The utter helplessness. The not wanting to ‘let go’.
{Edit – I REALLY have to address how I think and feel about all this, how I feel about daughter… I dont like what I called her up there… thinks.thinks.thinks.}
As long as I try to battle it, it’s GAME ON. I’m back in the drama triangle. AND I think ADDING to the ‘use’ of daughter as a tug of war rope.:(:(
If I step away, her interest in daughter wanes… and daughter is left unsupported and ‘at risk’ in a situation beyond her ‘means’… step back in GAME ON. Rinse and repeat…:(
This is her MO. As kids, she neglected and abused me and my sisters but if anyone showed us affection or we bonded with anyone ‘outside’ of her we’d be yanked away and the person would be trashed to kingdom come
Also I remember many times we were left in cars over night with duvets outside pubs she was gigging at with her ‘band’ – she was in her 30′s! If you cant find a baby-sitter you dont go! Simple! Of course this wont be ‘remembered’ by her.
I dont know what to do for the best either. Or how to cope with my emotions about it.:(x
At least my daughter is old enough to come to me if she needs to (which she does, with worries, personal issues – and I am gratful that I can still be ‘mum’ for those things… but ED is the big CRAZY elephant in the room) and I will always be here:(
I get a lot of comfort in the posts above that talk of even if we cant ‘fix’ the situation, we can focus on channelling positive ‘protective thoughts’ towards the loved one… I find that a really helpful idea and good medicine for not falling in a heap on the floor.
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Frank Lee Speaking says:
Now here’s a thing.
The female sociopath I was conned by HAD NO PHOTOS OF HER IN HER 20′s or TEENs.
No matter how many times I said I would like have seen photos of her before she met me the answer was always. I have none left. Tore them up. The only photo she had was of a baby and it was all part of the “little girl” thingy they play with you.
Has this happened anyone else. That the female(or male) sociopath had no history of themselves before you met them in terms of photos and videos?
Why is this?
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Karla Holmolka is seeking a pardon. Cdn. politicians step up.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cap.....lka_pardon
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one_step_at_a_time says:
frank lee – my take on your situation is – a) she’s lying/ hiding something (ie her real life isn’t the same as her made up life); b) she doesn’t care about anything and pictures are just part of not having emotional attachment to anything (and the pics serve no purpose in how she cons people – so they are of no use to her); c) someone angry with her destroyed them.
mine used other people’s photos to be her whole fake family. a dozen different people’s photos she stole on the internet to rep her closest family. oh, and the cat. (watch out there spatho, i know the cat’s REAL name.)
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Wini says:
Frank Lee, My Ex Spath left all his family portraits, videos old slides, scrap books behind. They are in my home as I write. I even have his parents portrait (both deceased now). I contacted his ex-wife’s attorney and told him to inform her that she and/or the children (both adults now) can come by any time and pick the family memorabilia up. To this date … NO takers.
I figure, I’ll just store them for the future if he ever gets picked up (God willing) and spends time in prison. Then I’ll forward him all that he left behind since he was too busy stealing all my possessions.
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OxDrover says:
Frank lee speaking, “She” may have been a guy in her 20s. The University hospital medicalo school I trained in did several of these operations on fairly young guys and believe me, you could NOT tell unless you knew. Or, there may have been some other reason there were no photos, like she was in prison. The only photos I have of my P son outside prison is one when he was on parole for a couple of months, all the rest are in the prison visiting room with him in prison clothes.
I can think of several reasons there may have been no photos of her.
Twice Betrayed,
You made some comments about your health not being all that great now due to stress past and present. OK, I can DEFINITELY RELATE!
You made another statement though, “I cannot divorce my kids” NOW WITH THIS ONE, I DISAGREE. I divorced them and over all my health is improving! I feel better, and I’m taking care of myself.
When you have had your stress for a long timem and the LEVEL OF HORMONES IS ALWAYS HIGH, it takes time for them to readjust and come back down. It doesn’t get bad in a day and it doesn’t get frixed in a day. It is almost like being drunk all the time, your body gets used to it. So, anyway, you sort of have to make a conscious effort stop the upheavals that go on that cause you to be pithed off, mad, upset, stressed out, feel pressure, “I should’s” and all that OVER THINGS YOU CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT.
OK, you know what your daughter’s PURPOSE IS. 1) to NOT let your GD get to know you enough to really love you 2) to dangle the child in front of your nose, KNOWING YOU WANT time with the girl, and relishing you KNOWING YOU CAN’T HAVE IT.
I would say those asre more than enough grounds for you to DIVBORCE that witch, she3 is GETTING OFF ON GIVING YOU STRESS, KEEPING THE CHILD AND YOU UPSET —so you only have two choices 1) keep on like it is and you and the child suffer AND she gets off on doing it to the both of you OR 2) Tell her that as lolng as that is her attitude, you will not play her game. NC Tell her that since you won’t be able to see your GD that you will start a little savings account for her and put money in there for when she is 18. Then sTart a box of Cards and each birthday, holiday etc. write a sweet card and put in the box along with a charm b racelet and a charm. Then open a little savings account for her and one day you can give them to her and she will realize that HER MOTHER kept her away from you.
I know it sucks, TB, but that is what that witch of a daughter of yours is TRYING TO DO! What she WANTs to do. It hurts to divorce them, but not doing is is like still being married to the P. ((((Hugs))))))
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Psyche says:
Hi Twice,
I gave your situation some thought last night, and am thinking that you might want to try the cupcake trick. If you decide that you need to stay in the relationship with your daughter, for your GD’s sake (and I can see why Ox recommends not doing so in the post just above this one), you could try to use the cupcake trick. I use it on my female Spath at work.. I’d love to ‘divorce’ that witch, but I’m not stable enough to leave my current job.
If what you see is right: “my daughter is evil just like her father!!!! Bad wicked. And what is so sad is, she was sweet just like her daughter when she was little. I do feel my daughter loves to drive people, especially me, nuts and as you say, worse.” — then you can use that truth.
Here’s how my female colleague at work plays. There might be something I really want, maybe to be included on some committee or other, whatever — let’s just use a chocolate covered chocolate cupcake for an example. Imagine it’s sitting on the table in our lunchroom. It will sit there for a thousand years if the Spath doesn’t realize someone likes it and wants it. BUT, if the Spath realizes that I want it, she’ll swoop in, grab it and try to torment me by holding it out in front of me, trying to make me grab for it, and pull it away just before I can get my hands on it. You get the idea. She may even offer pieces of it to other people while I sit there and watch her do it. And then she’ll smile at me. Infantile biotch, but you get the idea.
Right now, your daughter has turned your GD into that chocolate cupcake. I am not sure that this is a suggestion that you should take, but I’m going to put it out there, just in case. You can try to get your daughter to believe that you’ve just given up on trying to deal with the issue of her taking your GD out with her, to have her little ears blasted out. Just pretend to be so very tired of the arguments, and LAUGH it off somehow. You’ve got to get her off the idea that she can use your GD like a cupcake to hurt you. I KNOW, this goes against normal good judgment, to pretend like you don’t care when you do. And your daughter will probably try to test you, by continuing with the behavior, to see if it can get a rise out of you. Do not let her know that you care anymore. The ugly fact is, she’ll prob. keep up with the behavior for a while anyway, whether you get upset about it or not. My suggestion may be too late to really work, because she already knows you care — but you can still try to shift her focus, by putting a different cupcake of your choice out on the table, to see what happens. Pick a flavor of cupcake that you don’t really like – that would be a strawberry cupcake for me. Put the strawberry cupcake on the table, and talk about how everyone just loves strawberry cupcakes, or whatever. You get the idea. Your daughter may try to torment you with that one instead, if she gets enough of a rise out of you when she tries.
In other words, allow her to believe that you may feel anxiety, fear, desire about the strawberry cupcake, and your daughter may swoop in to try to torture you with that instead. Remember that they think we care about all the stupid things that they care about (anything to do with status, power, control). Use that knowledge when you choose a new cupcake. Pick something you don’t care about that she’ll just *imagine* you care about. Let your daughter imagine that your greatest fear is that she may try to take that thing/strawberry cupcake away. If she’s busy trying to torment you with the new cupcake, she may not have as much fun trying to torment you by taking your GD out like she’s 18 years old, especially if she’s not getting a rise out of you about the latter. If you’re not a good actress, as I’m not, just be sure to give her a few signs that at least suggest that she may really be getting to you, when she tries to torment you with the new cupcake. It might intrigue her enough to get her going.
If stupid cupcake games aren’t your style (and before anyone says it, I agree that they ARE stupid and possibly dangerous, and I don’t like them one bit, except for the fact that they’ve helped me navigate an impossible situation at work), calling child services might be okay, if you could somehow document your daughter’s harmful behavior, but dealing with them could turn into a huge can of worms. It’s hard to know. Waiting 18 years could be for the best, because your GD will have realized by then that there’s something sick in her mother, and you could be the best and most appreciated grandma to her when the time comes. But 18 years is a long time, and there’s no telling exactly what the costs of waiting that long will be.
I had to be away from my younger sister for 15 years because of our Spath-packed family (long story). She is not an Spath, and was the absolute apple of my eye while we lived in the same house. But we actually can’t relate with each other now, even though we share common troubles. 15 years did a lot of damage that has made the relating almost impossible now. She’s in her 20s now, has become completely histrionic as a reaction to all of the abuse, and all I can do is stand by, watch her destroy her youth, sleep with junkies, and hope that she outgrows the behaviors, like when she’s 40 and I’m almost dead. But really, in what lifetime is this supposed to get any better?!
In any case, you’re in a very bad spot. We can walk away from ex lovers and jobs and careers, but when there are kids (or grandkids) involved, dealing with the situation can be a life sentence (someone else on the site said that about a week ago, and I thought they hit the mark). The only thing I can feel pretty sure about is that your daughter will try to torment you with anything that she believes you care about. If I were you, I would never let her know what I truly care about ever again. I wish I had something better to offer, seeing as how you know these things already.
Hugs (and prayers),
Psyche
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Twice Betrayed says:
hope, gem, blueskies, oxy, and Psyche: Thanks so much for all your help, willingness to really dig in there for me/GD!!! You are all a Godsend to help one another this way! Just having your input, love, care and empathy gives me hope. Oxy: your point on my divorcing my daughter may be so. But, then I don’t get to see my GD at all. I am not really being allowed to make any difference in her life, I do know that. I keep thinking my daughter will get tired of torturing me with my GD and just take off with this band. But, I’ve realized something….my daughter relies on my GD for constant supply so I fear she will never let her go for long. Only if my daughter were to receive so much supply elsewhere would she ever let this child go and I don’t think this is possible, because who would ever worship you like your young child? See, my daughter jumps from man to man to man making them hero worship her. When the man finds out she’s nuts and he’s in over his head, he runs and my daughter always has the GD to feed her supply. So, it’s a vicious circle that I fear will never end until my GD is old enough to leave [that's if she makes it.....sob]. [All the while, this husband of my daughter's works and makes her a GREAT living. This man is a marine biologist and pulls in six figures. So, my daughter has money for anything she wants.]
Psyche: Thanks for your cupcake idea. I have used a similar game on my X, but my daughter is a master people reader. She can read me even better than my PX could. She’s a wicked witch hellbent on destroying everyone and everything she can. Only when she wants something does she become human and she wants very little from me, as she can get all she wants from her X and the other suckers she has spellbound in her life. I do feel sorry for the lead singer of this band….he’s run off and left his wife and children for my daughter and it will cost him dearly. Not to mention his wife/children. I mentioned that to my daughter and she reacted…..but of course, her wants overrode it.
Thanks all for your help/love and care! Hugs to you all!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Psyche, I agree with you, it i s one of those damned if you do, damned if you donh’t situations and a lose/lose situation where they ahve you over a barrel and if they know you want that cup cake, they will smash it on the floor and step on it before they let you have it.
Even if that cupcake is their child, they will destroy it before allowing you to enjoy the child. Lookk at the Calley/casey Anthony case in Florida. PERFECT example. In that case the mother I think was a P and the GRANDMOTHER as well, so the mother killed her own daughter in order to piss off her mother and SHOW HER that she couldn’t control the kid. Two Ps fighting over a baby, each wanting control. MY God, what a night mare!
That Baby gabriel Johnson thing where the P mother took the baby and either killed him (she said she did) or gave him up in an illegal adoption (she said that too) just to hurt the baby’s father! And how many Ps murder the babies to get back at their X’s—or mistreat them and abuse them? Sheesh, and there is jack shidt we can do about it most of the time.
To love one of these kids and to be POWERLESS to effect any change has got to be HELL ON EARTH. To want a relationship with that child and have the parent dangle the kid just out of reach like a carrot in front of a donkey has got to be HELL ON EARTH.
Each of us has to make up our minds, but I have had to come to the conclusion for myself that I will NOT FOLLOW CARROTS of any kind, and I will not run from sticks. I’ve lunged for carrots my whole life, and I’ve dodged sticks but I just don’t have it in me any more. I can’t handle it, the stress is more than I am able to endure at this point in my life.
I love my oldest son C but you know, he lied to me, knowing I don’t tolerate lies. I don’t hate him, but I don’t “DO” lies, so he is free to go do his own life however and where ever he wants to, just I can never trust him again. Won’t even try to trust him again. Wouldn’t spit at him if I saw him in the store. Would give him a hug and say “nice to see you hope you’re doing well” and mean it. I’m sorry he lied to me, but not my fault he did, it is his. His choice. and the response to him lying is MY CHOICE. He knew that up front. He may not have “believed me” when I told him that because in the past I have been too free with “forgivenss” and “restoring trust.” But I’m NOT now, I have forgiven him, but TRUST? NOT in this life time. That also means that all the bennies that go with being my TRUSTED son (and believe me they are quite a few) are gone as well. His brother feels the same way I do. NO trust. It hurts, but we would rather be realistic about things than keep up an unreasonable expectation of trust and have it repeatedly stepped on.
B ut it’s one of those things that we have to come to for ourselves, no one else can tell us when or what to do about it. Even after I knew how toxic my egg donor was, it was so hard to even THINK about “divorcing” my egg donor. Or divorcing my P son, or my P-friends, it left me feeling pretty empty. But now I have filled up those empty spots so I realize life without the P’s influence is MUCH BETTER FOR ME!
Just getting to this point was painfujl, but I’m glad I’m here now.
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Twice Betrayed says:
My P daughter is firing off crazy emails to me. I can see this all is a set up to ban me from her/GD’s life because she does that to anyone that does not agree with her. She calls it ‘her world’. Even when I suck bottom and don’t go against her, she still won’t allow me to keep GD much. She’s drifted into paranoia now. Says my GD came back and said I said she had chicken pox. And that we were talking about her. Never said a word about any of that. Besides, child is only 3 years old!
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Psyche says:
Hi Ox,
Yeah, I agree, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. and I have had to drop kick some people out of my life so that I could preserve what is left of my energy.
I have a hard time turning my back on the ones who aren’t actually Spaths and Ns, just messed up mistake makers. My sister falls into that category. She’s completely damaged, and quite capable of lies, but her heart is actually good. But if I stay closely involved with her, it does bring me down, way down, and it’s of NO IMMEDIATE BENEFIT. Lots of used up energy. So what to do? Humph. Hell if I know. I just hope for something better from a fairly safe distance, until I can think of a better plan.
When it comes to grandkids, and kids in the hands of the Spaths and Ns, I’m not sure I could axe all ties, even if an Spath or N were holding the strings. If I want contact with my sister and good brothers, it requires tangential contact with the Spaths in the family. So I deliberately use the unwanted contact with the rats as a way of exercising my anti-Spath muscles, in not giving them the satisfaction that they want from me, moment to moment. I use the interaction to learn how not to react to their games, and to find ways to get a few good moments in, here and there, with my siblings who are worth trying to save. But I think you and I can agree on the fact that a healthy distance is key – you and I just have different distance boundaries.
Good luck to Twice, it sounds like you’re still very much in hell. I am not sure what I would do if I were you.
xo, Psyche
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MiLo says:
Dear Twice Betrayed,
I am so sorry for the situation you are in. Your daughter IS my daughter – exactly. Children are nothing but pawns in their game of life. They have no real feelings towards their children, only what they can gain by using them.
My daughter found that her son got in her way though and I was a willing babysitter. I knew the time he spent with me was literally saving his life so I was always available. Everytime she got mad at me, she threatened never to let me see him.
Try to keep your communication with her to a minimum, no matter what you say – it will be misinterpreted. I always said talking to my daughter was like sticking your head inside a blender. I might say “I like your new hair cut, it looks great on you.” She would say “You mean you never liked my hair before, you always think I look like a mess” – No winning EVER
Maybe even act like you are too busy or just not interested in your GD. This could make her number one mission to make sure she “makes” you spend time with her. Kind of like the advice Psyche gave you on the cupcake.
If it gets to where she will not let you have any contact with her, have you considered trying to obtain “grandparent visitation rights”? Some states are very good about granting these. We did that with my grandson, after my daughter tried to “sell” ($10,000) us time with him.
Again, I am so sorry and wish you the very best.
MiLo
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Hopeforjoy says:
MiLo,
You seem to have your stuff together, can’t believe your daughter would charge you for visitation. Good advice about the grandparent rights, I have heard about this as well.
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Twice Betrayed says:
Psyche: Thank you so much!
MiLo: Thank you so much for pointing that out!!!!! I have heard of Grandparent’s rights and I will go for them, if I have to.
I am now in contact with my daughter. Have been working her like I did my PX [her dad] and think I have made some progress. I ordered my GD Kid’s pink ear muffs [protection] and sent it to their house. She responded and we are communicating. I feel she is working from the willful rebellious fog [some] and may allow me to keep my GD during some of these gigs. Once she feels she has ‘punished’ me enough I think she might allow some contact. Now, if this band sets off on a west coast tour……how to keep my GD off that tour bus. I have volunteered to keep her the whole time but my daughter hedged back and forth. I get her to communicating and then I can read between the lines and sift what she says. Will see. One step at a time with these head strong insane people. Gawd, it’s just like dealing my X. She has turned out exactly like her dad. *sigh.
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frontporchtalker says:
PART THREE
When I think back about the reasons why Mp victimized me—as if a Sociopath really needs a reason—but there was, in a way.
I think I’m safe using that name, considering there must be a million people named Mp in the Midwest and the south, right? I am afraid, even now, that she could find me again.
I am a little bit scared, so I will have to edit my posts a little better. I’ll call her MP.
As I discussed this with my therapist of the past ten years (I became aware of one possible reason, besides the usual reasons I mean—the money, etc.
I was never in love with Mp. I loved her as a friend, and even as family, I suppose. But, I never was in love with Mp– resented that about me and even hated me for that.
Mp was extremely controlling and abusive, as you will see later on, hopefully.
I’ve had other extremely controlling women in my life, Narcissists, from my early life, who hated me for the same reason. There was one of my best friends –I’ll call her Rp. She recently found me again, after not having talked to her for the past six years. It dawned on me: she still wanted to know if I loved her the way she’d always loved me.
Rp was an extremely controlling friend, like Mp
For most of the years I knew her, R was abusive, verbally and emotionally, so I had to cut her out of my life.
I told her that, recently, so Rp told me she had a NEW BFF now! I wished her well and on her way. All Rp could say was: “I checked on you every year, but you never cared if I lived or died!”
Rp had called yet another ex-friend of mine, whom I will call “MO” who will figure in my story about Mp. She, Mo, was/is also extremely controlling.
It seems that it took such a terrible story for me to realize my own pattern of choosing extremely controlling and abusive women in my life, even as friends.
As my therapist reminded me, I made for the perfect mate/friend, etc. for a controlling person, because I was so much in my head, being a writer and teacher, that I couldn’t be “bothered” with daily mundane life.
I am also magnanimous, being a Leo and all. Ha, ha…. It’s probably all there in my chart!
RE: Part Three: My Life with a Sociopath: Mp
The most terrible part of my story comes next. It seems I am a Leo who also has a lot in common with the cowardly Lion, in the Wizard of Oz. I am sucking on my tail and crying now, so the rest of the story will have to wait….
until I find my courage to finish this story again.
Meanwhile, please know that I am reading all of your stories, and that I am also here for you!
FPT
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OxDrover says:
Dea rTB,
Well, you know the BAND might not like a sniveling, crying messy 3 year old on their tour! So it may not be UP TO your P-dtr to take her or not. That might be a thing you could work from the back door.
Oh, yea the old “you have chickenpox” thing LOL ROTFLMAO what a hoot! You know, that’s offr the charts!
The “grandparents visitation” rights is a thing in most states, as I understand it when a parent is dead and his/her parents want to see the kids and the surviving parent won’t let them.
My friend in Florida whose P son kept her GD away from her (after she had raised the kid from birth to age 8 24/7) was unable to get any legal right to visit the child though she had been the PRIMARY CAREGIVER for 8 yrs.
My friend volunteered at the GS’s school so she could have lunch with the child one day a week for several years, then finally got the birth mother to share some of her weekend time with the Grandmother. The little girl has turned out great and is 14 now and spends lots of time with her GM and has started to realize what her father and step mother are (both Ps) and that her birth mother is a DRAMA QUEEN and probably borderline personality disorder as well. This little girl is amazing and it is 100% because she has an amazing grandmother!
I count myself very fortunate that I do not have any grandchildren for a P child or P-Inilaw to keep me away from after I was attached. My biiological son that is not a P has chosen not to have children because of the high number of Ps in our family, and if and when my adopted son has children I figure we have a good chance on that score, some Ps back a ways, but I guarentee he will NOT marry or sire children with a Psychopath! He can spot a red flag a mile away now! LOL He RUNS the other way at record setting speeds! LOL
TB, Milo, Gem, Rosa and others who have children and grandchildren all tangeled up in these psychopathic webs, I feel for you, I know it must be horribly painful and no “one right answer” no “one size fits all” and more like ANYSIZE FITS NO ONE! (((Hugs)))) and my prayers for you guys.
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frontporchtalker says:
wow, Psyche. I really love your cupcake trick!
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geminigirl says:
Dearest TB I have to agree with Oxy, yes, ts horribly painful, but Ive had to do what she did, ie, divorce both my adult girls.
I have now got to the stage the stress is off the charts if I get to see my daughter again,a she will NEVER apologise for all the mean hurtful things she has done to me, and even if she did apologise, it would only be to keep me as a sourse of supply,{ie cash, food vouchers and goods, for her.} I have seen my GKDs fairly regularly up to the age of the youngest being 8 years old,-last April, when I sww her last, and I have to say, Ive seen the best of them. Holly is 15 now, Fin is 12, they have les and less time now for Grandma anyway. My daughter did the same as TB kept all the kids at arms length so I could never really bond with them. In a way this has been a blessing to me, as I dont crave to see them too much. Also, now that my SIL[they are still not divorced after 4 years]has FT custody of all 3 kids, he drives a long way evry weekend to see his girlfriend, and my spath daughter babysits her own kids at weekends. Which effectively means I cant see them, as Ive been totally NC with her for one year.If I rang her up and asked to see hte kids, shed think shed won, and I wont do this,ever.At least mySIL posts recent pics of the GKs on his Facebook page , so thats something, actually he did a recent album for me of the kids and labelled it,”For Maia”, So he has some feelings for me, and my situation, but lets face it, getting laid at the wekend is anicer option for him than visiting Grandma!Sometimes we just have to do what we have to to survive. Love, Mama Gem.XX
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frontporchtalker says:
Dear TB,
After reading your story, TB, I am wondering if SP’s are born that way, or do they have a personality disorder that is developmental? ie. the theory is that people with PD’s had some kind of trauma before the age of 3, and never developed a full personality.
I ask that question because it would determine how I would deal with your situation. Either way, there is nothing you can do to change her.
I remember babysitting for a 3 yr old boy one time, who I swear was spawned by the devil.
Best to you,
FPT
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Twice Betrayed says:
FPT: You know, I am torn on the answer to your question. But, I am going to answer it from the point of my hands on experience with 3 children by 2 P husbands. Two are by my first husband and 1 by my second. I dedicated my life to all three and they had a great home, love, full parental support from me. First two raised w/o P husband even in picture. Second one with husband always in picture. All 3 were great young kids. Two were great teens. All three show some degree of P now, as adults. All are highly intelligent, well liked, well educated, successful, productive citizens. However out of that realm, they are train wrecks emotionally and cruel beyond. Power mad to the max! So for me, my answer is: born that way-genetically wired P. I have often said scratch yourself and touch a drop of P blood and you will be psycho in 24 hours yourself. Just a little dark humor on my part, but it does seem that way. From my experience-genetics wins.
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Twice Betrayed says:
And you know, I was born into a highly successful family that was well respected but dysfunctional inside. I suffered great abuse emotionally and physically by my grown older brother and I am not P. However, having to ‘handle’ a person like my brother as a child did leave me vulnerable to hooking up with P husbands. I can hear/see my little 3 year old GD already wise enough to manage her P mother. It just breaks my heart to watch her have to dance the P dance at 3 years old, already skilled verbally/emotionally at defusing this ticking bomb known as her mother.
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frontporchtalker says:
Dear TB,
I’ve been pondering your situation for a while. I think all the above have the wisest answers to an unbearable situation.
Try to think: what would be best for you GD? Would she feel scared of her own mother? No doubt, but she wouldn’t be able to voice that fear, maybe.
Your job would be–as the wise folks said—to make it seem like your GD is just coming to your house for a visit, while your daughter “takes a little break.”
The way it is, you have to also take care of the mother’s ego in order to protect your GD’s life.
A vacation sounds better that Child Protective Services, just for now I mean. After you get your GD stabilized with you, THEN I’d call CPS.
Twenty years ago, I used to be a social worker. I worked with trauma and child abuse victims.
The tricky part is: to not to ADD to the child’s trauma of her crazy mother, which is already that kid’s burden. But at the same time, protect that child.
It’s like having a rabid dog walking towards some kids. (To Kill a Mockingbird) You want to keep the kids calm so you can deal with the danger.
FPT
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frontporchtalker says:
I also like all the wise advice about “drop-kicking” SP’s out of your life. That is what I am doing now, out of necessity…and life force.
For me, now, it is a matter of survival: them or me.
It’s as though we who have been drop-kicked, blenderized, and nearly killed by P’s are part of a special club, here at LF.
I feel life more poignantly now. I am making my own life a priority, now.
I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than have to go through the experience of having (several) SP’s in my life, sucking my life away, like ELECTROLUX VACUUM CLEANERS, ala’ SP!
I say: Just change the bag and get on with our lives!
ha, ha.
FPT
wow! did I just say all that? I almost feel brave enough to tell the rest of my story when I get this mad.
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Match1zSkill says:
Hey Guys!!! I joined because I am scarred as hell. Dont know what to do or look for. I am dating a young lady Rose.. her sister warns me literally everyday that she is a social path. She gives me names of people and what she did. I bring them up to Rose and she says that they are completely untrue. She has admitted to having a few guys in her life. No biggie right? Then I talk to there mother who I am close with also. I take her home to pick up some clothes and me and her mother talk and she tells me I need to watch out for her daughter. I am about to leave then mom approached Rose about what she has done to guys. They get into it >> ( fast forward ). As I am about to leave Roses mom starts crying and is telling me that she is a bad person. Roses sister and I are best friends. Have been for years.. Any traits or experiences you guys can fill my in on that I can look out for so I don’t f*ck myself over.
Thanks Guys
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OxDrover says:
Dear Match1,
Welcome to Love fraud. I STRONGLY SUGGEST though that you edit your post and remove your private e mail address.
As far as advice on Rose—–RUN RUN RUNNNNNNNNN away from this woman as fast as you can. If both her mother and her sister have warned you about her, what are you waiting for?
Good luck. Hang around here and read articles in the arichives and learn about psychopaths. God bless.
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ErinBrock says:
Match1:
First….please delete your email…..go to the edit function and take it out. We can all respond to you here.
Second….I am going to assume you have read all of the comments from survivors who have debated about warning….to warn or not to warn…..and how the ‘warning’ has been received.
Okay…..so mom and sister have given you info……WHAT ARE YOU STILL DOING STICKING AROUND WITH THIS GIRL FOR???????
You said yourself….you don’t want to fuC& yourself over…..
Well……your gonna!
There is NOTHING you can do to change this girl, head off her behaviors or anything else you can do to avoid her wrath of hurt you have been warned about.
So again…..WHY ARE YOU STILL AROUND?
Her own mother and sister……HELLLLLLOOOOOOO.
They have given you a gift……if you choose to take it, you will do yourself great honor. If you return it to sender…..you;ll find out soon enough….the HARD way. ( and I assure you….when you have your ‘aha’ moment…you will wish you would have taken their gift)….
There are NO awards for being with a sociopath. Trust me…..only pain, destruction…..and the long process of healing and picking up the pieces.
Get out!
In the meantime…..stick around LF….and read our stories and the articles. It will give you good insight on what could be in your future.
Welcome to LF….I hope for you…..you can gain enough education to make the best decision for yourself.
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Match1zSkill says:
ErinBrock,OxDrover – Thank you so much for your reply’s!! I have read all of the post when I found the site. The only thing I can relate to thus far is the animal like sex? I read all the tell signs and the one that I picked up on is that she is impulsive? She pays for her own stuff and does everything she can for me. So I am very confused they are telling me this but she is so nice its kinda hard to believe. I only know about one guy recently but she left him? The main reasons why her family warning me is because apparently she had sex with people when she was single when she did. Which to me is really not a big deal. Anything I need to look out for. Sorry if I sound completely stupid in the matter but I want to make sure I don’t lose a good thing.
M1zS
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one_step_at_a_time says:
match – you say her sister is a friend of yours, and that you are close to her mom also. how long have you known these folks? do you know THIER reputations? If they have good reps and don’t exhibit signs of sociopathy themselves – then i would take the risk of ‘losing a good thing.’
you have to know – spaths can look like the BEST people to us – it’s called the ‘lovebomb.’
be careful.
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Disgusted says:
Let me start out by explaining that I am a very easy going person and I hate confrontation. So, I guess I was a prime target for the psychopath where I worked. I had never been around anyone like her before.
The new Park Manager had no morals, so when SS was hired as an office clerk, she was comfortable in her new home. Prior to that time, she had worked at a prison and often talked about it as being a place she enjoyed working. The only thing she didn’t like was the structured environment. (I have often wondered if she willingly left that job.) Others told me, she had not been able to keep any other job.
SS started trying to manipulate me into letting her have her way soon after she was hired. She would tell me what a great job I did, even though it was obvious she had no knowledge of the type of work I did. She tried to convince me that we shared like interests and even went so far as to claim to know members of my family, my wife’s boss, and pretended to have had conversations with my wife. All were lies made without so much as blinking an eye.
When that didn’t get the results she wanted, she started flirting with me. She openly stated that her marriage meant nothing to her. She used her kids to talk about herself; it was never about them. When I tried to remind her she was married, she let me know that she was going to do what she wanted. She had no respect for anyone. She was very aggressive when it came to getting her way.
SS was an ugly woman, grossly overweight with no redeeming physical characteristics. She was jealous of anything that might take attention away from her. She disliked other women and tried to convince the men at work that she looked better than them. She even went so far as to run down a new born baby to us. Even though she had a huge flat butt, she wiggled it in front of me and tried to get me to compliment her. I didn’t. The worse she got, the more I tried to avoid her. Each time she pulled something, I would walk away and hope she got the hint that I wasn’t interested. She never did. As soon as I would get one thing stopped she would try something else.
It wasn’t long before she was trying to find ways to be alone with me. She tried to force her way into going with me (I was often in inaccessible areas of the Park.) I let her know I wasn’t going to take her with me, but that didn’t stop her from trying to get the manager to make me take her. I refused.
It wasn’t long before she started trying to corner me at the office and talk about sex. She would be talking about something innocent and suddenly tell me she was good in bed, or that she liked to look at men’s penis’s and watch them masturbate. She blatantly propositioned me on more than one occasion. Each time she would pull this, I would quit what I was doing and leave. I thought surely she would realize I wasn’t interested. But she never stopped. I started trying to completely avoid her.
No matter how many times I stopped her, Stephanie continued to get worse and worse. When it became impossible to corner me at the office, she started showing up where I was working and even at the shop during my lunch hour. She brought a meal for two and tried to get me to share it with her. I ignored her then eventually had to confront her and had to make her leave.
A week later, she overheard a conversation between the Park Manager and myself and thought she had found another way to be with me –I was able to stop her before she had a chance to further her agenda.
Even when I refused to speak to her, she pursued me. Eventually I had to confront her and tell her to leave me alone. I was very clear and laid out exactly what I wouldn’t allow. I told her any dealings she had with me were to be kept strictly professional. I tried to do it in a way that would cause the least amount of drama, and still get my point across. I explained that her actions were causing gossip and that I didn’t want my family embarrassed by the gossip. She told me she didn’t care how anything looked, what anyone thought, and that no one was going to tell her what to do. In fact, she continued to argue with me until I finally told her she was acting like a bitch in heat.
By the next day, she had twisted that conversation to mean that my wife was jealous of her and told my boss that my wife made me call her that. (Of course I didn’t know this until some months later when I got my personnel file. During the meeting she hinted I had problems at home, but there were no open accusation against my wife.) My boss said that my calling her a bitch in heat could be considered sexual harassment. I told him I hadn’t called her anything but said that was how she was acting towards me. It soon became obvious that she was trying to get me to back down from my stance. I didn’t.
After thinking about some of the things she had said during the meeting, I decided to confront her one final time the next day. I wanted it clear that I wasn’t going to put up with anything else from her. At the final meeting, she once again tried to get me to back down. First she told me that they had tried to get her to file a complaint against me, but she wouldn’t do it. Then she started talking about the divorce rate in prison, and how wives couldn’t deal with their husband’s work. At the time, I couldn’t fathom what she was talking about; I didn’t work in a prison. Then she asked if I was sure that was all I wanted between us? I told her that I meant what I said, any dealings with me were to be kept strictly professional. It wasn’t until much later, that I realized she was suggesting that I divorce my wife.
Once it finally became clear to SS that I had drawn the line and she wasn’t going to be able to manipulate me, she decided to get even with me. After 16 years of a perfect record I was fired. Even though I got my job back, I couldn’t stay there.
One more thing I need to add is that I wasn’t the only one she made sexual advances toward at the park. A few Park visitors said they would never be back because of her. I overheard her teasing one male employees about being a minuteman in bed, found notes to the manager telling him he was full of snot, but not in his nose, listened to complaints about her and another employee being locked in the office during office hours, and refusing to open the door, etc. It seems as if I was the only one to see through her, or at least the only one that objected to her actions.
I was raised to respect women and treat them like ladies. This one didn’t deserve it. I filed sexual harassment charges against her, but as far as I know, nothing was done. When I left the park, she didn’t stop. About a month later, we returned home from a weekend at our son’s to find a pair of her panties in our bedroom. Other things were done that left little doubt who had been there, but we asked around until we found someone who could give us a description of the persons entering our house. No one should have to put up with the unwanted and unsolicited advances that I had to put up with from this very sick individual.
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bluejay says:
Disgusted,
This woman is something else! What I question is why your empoyer would want to keep her around – she’s bad news. You have my sympathy – sociopaths know how to ruin your day. It’s unfortunate that decent, normal people get targeted by these creatures, making life difficult.
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Wini says:
Disgusted, you just described half the female work force where I was employed.
Thank God you got away from her clutches because, it’s all about her, her, her, her, her.
Oh, P.S. You never tell an ash hole, they are an ash hole. Why? Because they are an ash hole.
Peace.
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Disgusted says:
The boss saw nothing wrong with her actions. He often talked about his sister-in-law which was very much like her. when I said she had found her new home, I meant it. This was the perfect place for her to be able to do whatever she wanted… He turned a blind eye as long as she didn’t cause him problems. SS was quite good at reading others and knowing exactly how to work them to get her way. He adored SS and believed everything she said.
Before she was hired, he made it clear to everyone that there was only qualification – and that the woman hired be “wife safe” in looks. It didn’t matter to him if she could do the job, etc., as long as his wife didn’t consider her a threat, he was happy.
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Wini says:
Disgusted, you already figured out that everything that came out of her mouth was a lie, from hello to goodbye. She sounds like she is at least a classic phallic narcissistic personality. I suggest the next time you encounter an anti-social personality that wants to railroad you, keep a portable tape recorder in your pocket, snake the speaker up the sleeve of your jacket, with the microphone concealed but having access to the height of the person you are speaking with. Get the conversations recorded so that next time, you can prove that she’s a manipulating, lying, scheming, under handed worm of a person.
My hand held tape recorder was my best friend.
Peace.
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shabbychic says:
Now I’m disgusted! Good reasons to document everything and to let your manager know right away what’s going on. I’m so glad you got your job back!!! (even though not at same site) “wife safe” HA HA.
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Delta1 says:
To Twice Betrayed
I am a Child Protection social worker in the UK and can only speak from the perspective of that country of course. Also I don’t have all the information I would need to make a proper ‘professional assessment in any way. However, with that disclaimer, I am concerned enough to suggest as others have done that you should seriously consider calling Children’s Services in your area – you can do this anonymously (refuse to give names/identifying details) in the first instance to ‘take the temperature’ if you wish. Of course if the SW is doing their job they will pressure you very much to give identifying details (that’s what I’d do!!)
If your concern is your daughter taking your GD out to bars etc and GD’s hearing could be long-term damaged etc then this could be considered significant physical/emotional child abuse (depending entirely on whether your concerns can be independently evidenced somehow).
Any CP worker would also take into consideration frequency of visits to bars and other contextual information. In my own practice I find that I (and fellow SW’s) are not usually fooled by ‘nice houses – tidy, clean etc’ when it comes to this particular form of abuse – clearly having a tidy house is ‘nothing to do with it’.
If this were allocated to me I would likely insist on hearing tests for the child if the ‘basic facts’ i.e. the child is being regularly exposed to loud music could be established.
Please consider that if other abuse occurs (likely if your D is truely a P or S) and CS become involved anyway if someone else reports concerns – you would not want to be seen to have ‘protected’ your D over your GD by NOT reporting abuse.
The downside is that your daughter would likely unleash ‘war on you’ and probably stop access to GD if she can, though CS would try to prevent this in my experience. It is likely that stopping the relationship formerly enjoyed with your would be seen as further proof of emotionally abusive behaviour by your D to your GD.
No-one can make this crucial decision for you. And just because this is ‘my view’ I absolutely cannot say what another CP SW would say or see the situation – because I don’t have ‘all the facts’ of course.
Blessings
Delta 1
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