When women are sociopaths/psychopaths
Nearly all of the research into sociopathy has involved evaluating the personality traits of adult men in prison. The reason for this is that researchers have easy access to adult prisoners and more prisoners are male. Think about it—how else would a researcher find sociopaths to study? The problem with studying sociopathy in male prisoners is that we learn nothing about sociopaths who never get arrested. We also don’t know if the research results apply to women.
There is actually very little research data available regarding sociopathy in non-criminals and in women. The little research that has been done reveals that sociopathy in women entails two or three main features that are similar to those found in men. Namely, female sociopaths lack empathy and enjoy manipulating and exploiting others. Violent and impulsive behavior is less common in sociopathic women. This fact may make them more dangerous, as they more easily blend in with the rest of society.
The key traits of sociopathic females
A recent study of adolescent girls in detention performed by Crystal L. Schrum, M.A. and Randall T. Salekin, Ph.D. of the University of Alabama and reported in Behavioral Sciences and the Law, revealed the core qualities that best described young female sociopaths. The teens were callous and lacked empathy, had a grandiose sense of self worth and were conning and manipulative. They were also likely to engage in impersonal sexual relationships. Importantly, the researchers revealed that female sociopaths did not necessarily have “shallow emotions.” Again the lack of impulsivity and shallow emotions may make a female sociopath more difficult to spot.
Please read the true Lovefraud story of Michelle Drake. Notice that female sociopaths victimize other women as well as men. This vignette illustrates many of the core qualities of a female sociopath. As I read this case, I was painfully reminded of the male sociopath who was once part of my life; so perhaps the similarities between male and female sociopaths are more important than the differences. What struck me about the story is the elaborate con she perpetrated for really very little money. This case illustrates something truly amazing about sociopaths—the degree to which they derive pleasure from conning others. Their hoaxes are often outlandish and grandiose.
A friend of mine, who was once in law enforcement, says that conning is the sociopath’s profession and that that he/she may not even do it for the money. Conning is instead the work they have a passion for. As my friend says, “When a sociopath wakes up and opens his eyes in the morning, it’s show time!” I can envision Michelle saying that to herself as she donned the fake pregnancy costume.
The public and the courts are sympathetic toward female sociopaths
The case of Michelle Drake also illustrates something else about female sociopaths. The courts are more likely to go easy on them. This attitude of the courts may reflect the fact that many people excuse the behavior of female sociopaths and feel sorry for them. Look at the cases of women in the news lately. We don’t know if the women involved are sociopaths, however, these cases do illustrate the double standard that exists in how we judge female as opposed to male antisocial behavior. Several women teachers have been found guilty of sexually exploiting students. They were treated very leniently for the same crimes that would have put a man in jail for many years.
The NASA astronaut arrested for attempted murder is another example of the way people treat women differently and don’t take their crimes seriously. This week, a restaurant owner in Florida held a benefit night to raise money for the astronaut’s family. News commentators have been quick to voice sympathy for the astronaut, yet I have not heard a one express sympathy for the victim. I remind you that it is alleged that the astronaut sprayed her victim with mace and planned to kill her.
In conclusion, sociopathy is less common in women. Women who are sociopaths may not appear as shallow as men who are sociopaths. They are also less angry and impulsive compared to men. Although violence is less commonly perpetrated by women, if you are the victim, these statistics don’t matter.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
modelman360 says:
i was married to a female sociopath for almost 18 yrs. the things we found out about her and her double life! the saying love is blind is true. she showed no feelings even while watching a tear jerker of a movie. in a 7 hr trial over custody, she was made to read outloud a 3 page love letter she wrote to one of her boyfriends 22 yrs younger than her!, showed no feelings or emotions! my oldest son testified against her, it seems the only way to hurt a sociopath is through money. i feel so bad for my sons, they lived all this and they didn’t deserve it! i had to put a restraining order on her when she attacked me in front of my sons. my oldest said to me later, dad i don’t know how you didn’t just beat the hell out of her!……..i said i can’t raise you from a jail cell can i?……..i feel like the whole thing was like a damn soap opera!.when i got custody and she had to pay me child support, she lost it, she destroyed my motorcycle with a hammer and threw paint all over my javelin……….i didn’t care all i wanted was my sons………she is with a ex con now who is 13 yrs younger than her, and i thank god every day we are away from her!…………..the sociopath will lie to your face without blinking an eye!……….it is scary as hell! there has to be something missing in the genes or something. it’s been almost 10 yrs since all that happened, and sometimes the pain comes back when you try to understand it all, but these people will destroy themselves, my sons want nothing to do with her at all and haven’t seen her in almost ten yrs she has missed out on so much and doesn’t even know she will be a grandmother!, in a way you have to feel sorry for her……………………..not! even these people have a choice, they are adults not little kids if anyone has ever gone through this and would like to talk my e mail is modelman360@yahoo.com……thanks
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Wednesday, 21 February 2007 @ 8:37am
why-cant-they-see? says:
All Names are Pseudonyms.
In 2001 my ex-sociopath shot a 20YO man named “Dale Woods” nine times including three times in the back of the head while he lay face down on the floor, she claimed it was self defense despite her weight of 180lbs and his of 140 and no weapons.
In 2004 after my ex-wife (my family calls her “T-Rex”) began another affair I took her back four times; she arranged for strong sedatives to be prescribed for me and they disappeared. She tried to kill me at least two times while drugged. I taped one episode when I knew weird stuff was happening (90 hour digital recorder). I have been paid criminal compensation by the state for one attempt, but she has never been charged for any of the 290 documented crimes against me since separation. It is as if law enforcement just wants us all to go away. (Small county of about 20-30,000)
I first met Dale’s mother Misty in 1999 to discuss the purchase of the home belonging to the estate of her late in-laws. The home was next door to our Victorian home in a rural Iowa town which was one of two relatively large homes in the town. T-Rex and I had decided to commit a substantial amount to renovating our home but were concerned about the state of the abandoned house next door. It was a wreck; unoccupied for years and in need of a new roof, paint, windows, doors or maybe a bulldozer. The “street appeal” differences between the grand Victorian and the hodge-podge Iowa cottage could not have been wider.
We were told by Martha Higgles that the home was owned by a Hospital because the Woods’s were unable to pay the medical bills for the deceased parents. Martha introduced herself to us within days of us moving to Pleasantville and seemed to know everything about everyone and demonstrated little restraint in making her knowledge known. Martha is such a significant character in this tale that she has earned at least one chapter to herself. Martha’s rumor was the first of many rumors that proved false in this bored little town. I am sure that my family’s debut into Pleasantville society has fueled the town’s propensity and love for rumors for many years to come. This is of course “generally speaking”; which is something I usually avoid doing at all costs; my sincere desire at this time is to emphasize that there are some wonderful people in the little town of Pleasantville. However, the emotions felt when recalling the words and actions of the shameless minority that I encountered during my brief time as a resident tends to overwhelm the impact of the noble and discreet majority.
Misty did an exceptional job in clearing up the liens on the old Woods family home and we were able to purchase it for just a few thousand dollars. We then invested tens of thousands more renovating the home in order to convert it into an office for my then growing business.
In Late1999 Misty was sitting in our living room with T-Rex and me. We were discussing the progress of the house sale. We somehow got onto the topic of her husband Bob and his problems with Alcoholism and his relationship with his children. It was what many would consider “too much information” but I tend to have that effect on people, probably because I am guilty of the same thing. Being and open book can be a good thing sometimes but it can be taken too far. As an evangelical Christian I turned the conversation to issues of the heart and the only place I knew that a remedy could be found for the burdens Misty described. Misty was initially hesitant to take this turn, but with gentle persuasion she participated in the conversation with cautious enthusiasm. Over the next hour or two I had described my “testimony” with respect to the wonderful things God had done in my life and the “hope that is within me”. I asked Misty if she thought I believed what I was saying or if I was mad, she indicated that she didn’t think I was mad so I then invited Misty to take a blind step of faith to God’s open invitation to the world to join him on His terms in a love relationship. Misty accepted, I explained to her the prayer that I prayed when I first truly believe on the Lord as well as the sacrifices required to follow Him. Namely the very real possibility that she would be labeled and a nut-case by family, neighbors and others that have not tasted or comprehended God’s amazing love. I told her it would be like trying to make them understand how a strange and exotic fruit tastes that they had never seen, smelled or touched. Misty accepted the challenge with apparent enthusiasm and we prayed together. Misty was beaming and had happy teary eyes. No sooner than Misty’s exit and T-Rex poured water on the happy time by bluntly announcing “you know she only did it to get close to you don’t ya?” I responded “I’ll take Misty’s prayer at face value until her fruit proves otherwise”; I was referring to the fruit produced by her “new life in Christ” which is the only way scripture gives us with which to determine the authenticity of another’s faith.
Within a few days Misty asked if I would help her with her troubled son Dale who was then 18 or 19. She went into great detail about his addiction to computer games and his lack of friends from an early age. With a heavy heart she recounted how even family would react when she and her children would arrive at a gathering. Apparently at the sight of Dale there would be eyes rolled and backs turned. Misty described Dale’s relationship with his father Bob as almost non-existent due to his drinking problems and because Bob had effectively given up on Dale. I have heard some conflicting accounts to this subsequent to Bob’s tragic suicide at Dale’s grave a year after T-Rex killed him, but it may have been in response to the pity felt for the broken man as opposed to having any basis in fact. For the record, I NEVER observed Bob and Dale together, so I have no direct knowledge on the subject, however, a close friend that had a very emotional run-in with the grieving father shortly before his suicide has convinced me that Bob truly loved his son.
Misty asked if I would be willing to spend some time with Dale and to tell him about the same good news that I had shared with her. We brain stormed a few ideas and she asked if I would teach him about gun safety and target shooing; a sport in which I was seriously involved at the time. I had just bought a new target rifle which needed to be “broken-in” so I agreed to take Dale with me. Misty said Dale had been involved with some National Guard youth program and enjoyed the program. I warned her that it may be a little boring because the break-in process takes considerable time in that one bullet is fired and then the barrel has to be thoroughly cleaned before the next shot and the process repeated.
Misty brought Dale to my home a day or two later for introductions, it was either the following weekend or possibly one day after work that I packed up the shooting gear and picked up Dale. During the twenty minute drive to the rifle range I engaged Dale with topics such as “what do you want to do with your life?” Dale’s response to this question had me laughing until I realized he was serious and a little annoyed by me response. The reason I laughed was because Dale said he was going to invent a “time machine”. Not knowing the best way to react I humored him and asked what qualifications he had in quantum physics. Dale then began a detailed explanation of how the machine would work. I recognized some of the dialog as having been sampled from various episodes of Stargate, Star Trek and maybe the BBC’s vintage “Dr. Who”.
After listening to Dale’s theories and explanation, and having recently noticed his annoyance at my initial rejection (or scoffing as he may have perceived my laughter) I decided that rather than rejecting his ideas out of hand I would approach the concept of career alternatives by asking about his “back-up plans” should there be a bug in his worm-hole theories…. there was none, not even to join the Army which tends to be the universal back-up plan anywhere in the world for young men without specific ambition. I should add that I consider a military career to be a noble choice and that many young men deliberately choose and purpose to be professional warriors.
At this point Dale began asking questions about my business, once I had given him an overview he began expounding on his considerable computer talents, it was painfully and uncomfortably obvious that he was pitching himself as a potential employee. Dale’s fear of rejection coupled with his suffocating arrogance and unwillingness to consider the counsel of others if it any way conflicted with his ideas was becoming very apparent. Later that day after privately recounting the experience, I determined that this arrogance may have been a defensive mechanism or “wall” built to shield him from rejection, ridicule and disappointment which was by all accounts the story of his life.
Dale and I spent two or three hours at the rifle range where I gave him basic safety instruction and explained ballistic trajectory as it relates to wind, humidity, distance and velocity. Dale “seemed” to know everything so the conversation was scaled back to small talk.
In the following months I tried to include Dale in a few activities, his mother and sisters accompanied him to a church service once and he also came to a presentation on “creation science” at a local church. On the way home he questioned the logic of my faith and we had a very in-depth discussion on the logic and science that backs up biblical Christianity. The conversation continued for almost 50 minutes in my SUV with the engine running in his parent’s driveway that snowy night. In that time I laid out for him the same good news that I shared with his Mother some months prior.
There was a terrific group of young men from a local church that played paintball regularly. I explained Dale’s situation to them and my commitment to mentoring him and they agreed to let him participate. I was excited about Dale experiencing unconditional acceptance by local guys of similar age, none of whom had met him previously. Dale only played twice, maybe three times; unfortunately he wore out his welcome because he would not retire from the field when tagged (hit), he would continue to shoot paint balls at the other team despite numerous and painful tags to himself. On the last time he played Dale stole paintballs from two young men and a small piece of equipment from me. On the way home I explained that I had a very busy life and could not justify investing any more into our relationship under the current circumstances. I told him that he should take a few months to think about the friendship I offered and to let me know if he felt it was something he wanted to salvage. In the last conversation we had I asked him if he had given any more thought to God’s invitation to join Him in a personal love relationship. Dale’s response was simply “well I’m not stupid”. I do not know exactly what Dale meant, but by the tone used I sincerely believe that Dale was trying to tell me that he couldn’t argue with the argument for Christianity. What he did as a result of this conclusion God only knows. I said “does this mean you have made a decision for Christ?”, he gave a non-committal response. At that point I asked “are you familiar with the account of the thief on the cross besides Jesus at the crucifixion?” He was. I told him that this is an amazing example of God’s mercy and love in that a criminal, a thief and maybe even a murderer who lived a selfish and probably violent life, in his very last words acknowledged Christ as Lord, and as a result gained eternal life. I told Dale that after noon “It is my prayer that if you don’t make a decision about God before your time comes that the Lord will have mercy on you when you die. Whether it is tomorrow or in sixty years, I hope that you will know that you are going to die and that you will have enough time to remember the thief on the cross, and that at that time you will call out to Jesus and that as a result I will see you in Heaven. Who knows, maybe you’ll be hit by a bus and you’ll have five or ten minutes to consider your fate”.
Those were the very last words I had with Dale Woods; the irony is that according to the autopsy, the crime scene and T-Rex’s account of the shooting, he did have at least a few minutes before dying. Dale was shot six times in the torso by a 40 caliber Beretta pistol; he then lay broken, bleeding and probably paralyzed on my bedroom floor for several minutes. If he was conscious, which T-Rex claims he was, he was laying on his left side slightly facing the ground.
T-Rex claimed he was on his back trying to get up into a kind of fetal position which was her justification for shooting him in the head. However, crime scene photos and autopsy may suggest an execution style shooting in the back of the head. Copies of the autopsy and these horrific images are available. He probably paralyzed by the first 6 hollow point 40 caliber rounds
T-Rex had already left the room after shooting him the first six times, some time later he would have heard T-Rex walk up from behind him, he was facing away from his killer as she approached, he was powerless to do anything, he heard her stop and then he was shot twice in the back of the head with the 40 caliber Beretta and then once more by a .357 magnum revolver, also in the back of the head. According to T-Rex the first of these head wounds was a warning and that she aimed away from him.
The crime scene was horrific, the town clerk and her husband graciously volunteered to clean up the mess after the forensics team finished. They were just finishing when I was allowed to return to the home (I had been out of town for 2 days). There was blood, bone and brain matter everywhere, it was on the floor, on the walls and even splatter on the light fittings. The smell was like butcher shop, it was overwhelming. I am very thankful to Mr. & Mrs. Town Clerk, and sorry that they had to experience that task
T-Rex was never charged, she is still free and after this homicide and three subsequent attempted murders and other crimes too numerous to mention. She is living at the time of this writing as primary care giver to our two children My Son 8 and My Princess 6 while I am living in Europe in fear for my life from her and those acting on her behalf.
Subsequent evidence revealed 3 or 4 separate $1Million Life policies on me without my knowledge. The theory of the crime is that T-Rex asked dale to kill me when I was to arrive home at about midnight from the business trip; he refused and she killed him to cover up the crime.
She has managed to have me arrested twice, one night in jail and convinced the judge in our divorce case that I should not be permitted to have a firearm for self defense in my home, her dad is a dirty ex-cop with about 150 guns hidden in the walls of the house where T-Rex lives with him and my two beautiful kids. All charges against me were unfounded, but hey, the men are guilty till proven innocent in these matters right?
I am seeking expert witnesses to help in a modification of child custody:
Psychiatrists with expertise in female sociopaths
Psychologists with experience in parental alienation syndrome
An Excellent attorney offering pro bono or an extremely deferred payment plan
(I am now effectively bankrupt)
Dr Leedom & Donna both know who I am, so if anyone can help, please let them know.
Sincerely
M
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Wednesday, 21 February 2007 @ 9:43am
pixelphoto says:
This sounds so much like my ex wife and her two younger daughters its not even funny. Now in their teens they have learned from the best con their own mother. It took me only 7 months married to her to figure out she wasn’t the person I married. After the divorce she trashed the house, and left me with 25,000 dollars in credit card bills I didnt even know I had. She had gotten cards in my name as the main person and her as the co person which left me with all the bills. I didn’t even know about them until I got a call one day asking when I was going to pay my bill I asked what bill? They said you are overdue our collection agency has been trying to reach you. I told them to send me the bill at my parents address and immediately did a credit report on myself. I had several credit cards I hadn’t ever seen or signed up for before. So not only did she do over 17,000 dollars worth of damage to the house after I got her evicted (holes in the walls, writing on walls, cut wires in walls, etcetc trash everywhere door jams busted locks changed etc) She also took all the appliances which were to be left with the home as it was my mothers home which we lived in rent free. All in all we figure over 65,000 dollars between repairs replacing things she stole and credit card debt and more. The problem is shes very smart and very sneaky she opened up a post office box in my name and had bills forwarded there. She stole my mothers credit card number and ordered things with my email address which were tracked back to her computer and I.P. address by the local sherriffs department.
The problem is she hasn’t been charged with anything. Shes so smug and defiant she believes she can do whatever she wants and will get away with it. Unfortunately she may be right. When she stole all the items out of the house she took my file cabinet as well which had all the paperwork for all the appliances and more with all the serial numbers and receipts in them. The cops told me well no serial numbers we cant help you. So shes gotten away with that.
She also filed false injury reports at several places shes worked to get workmans comp checks I know one place she got over 25,000 and another a little less and just did one other place here recently so 3 places in all for the same injury. Also she was fired from one for “defrauding a retail store” in the cost of over 5,000. thn went to work at her next place and 2,500 came up missing and reported stolen as it didnt show up in the drop box for th nightly deposit. She was the manager on duty and was the one to take the drop.
Somehow none of the places do background checks or check references and no one sues her or pursues jail time against her some how.She has gotten away with so much for so long no one can stop her.
She has been evicted multiple times and has done damage to every house she has lived in. One was burnt to the ground. Stolen items were found in all the yards reported by other people who lost items in the neighborhood. After they moved out peope found what was left of their items in her yard. No convictions there either.
The good news it may have caught up with her. Now if they only fine her with something. She is in a local jail on multiple charges. One is unpaid rent from the last guy she lived at s house. And not sure of the other charges. Her daughters have been caught by YDC and family services failed drug test and had them visit the house in 4 different counties she has lived in. I’m sure the girls have wrap sheets a mile long. One was arrested for stealing a lawnmower and that was recovered. But being minors all their records are sealed so once they grow over 18 no one will know what they have done in the past.
Amazing.
I just want there to be a paper trail for others to see what all she has done and continues to do but somehow she sweet talks her way out of things and no judge takes it seriously enough.
I have had to take a restraing order out against her and her kids and I know they have broken a restraining order once before in florida because that is on her record down there. I have also had to file 4 contempt of courts and one no show.
I cant believe how ballsy this woman is.
I will stop ranting now I need a break but I hope others see that there are these fake caring loving so sweet and innocent Ive had a hard life story kind of people who then take advantage of you and take you for everything that they can.
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Wednesday, 21 February 2007 @ 5:41pm
sunrising says:
Reading these histories is frightening! But it is true that there are female sociopaths, they are more subtle than their male counterparts, and the legal system protects them.
My fiance is trying to finalize his divorce now from a woman who I believe is a sociopath. They were married in 1979 and separated three times during the course of the marriage. They separated in 1998 and have not lived together since that time. He took her name off everything — bank accounts, credit cards, etc. He has filed his taxes separartely since 1999. He bought a house in 1999 where she has never lived. However, their two sons came to live with him there and they still are living there today.
However, last week in one of their useless court appearances she claims that he has been supporting her for all these years, that she is very depressed and can’t work because he promised he would nnever divorce her and would always take care of her; she claims they have a “father-daughter” relationship although she is only three years younger then he is (and she is no Anna Nicole Smith!). She has also been living with her boyfriend since 1999!
She claims that she lives on less than $20,000 a year but her expenses are $75,000! And her bills are all up to date because “friends help her.” By the way, she holds TWO mortgages in her name and both mortgages are paid up to date. However, the woman has not filed an income tax return since 1999. She collected HUD money for Section 8 apartments she was renting out in two houses that she owned — one house she and her lover had their names on, the other house she put in the two sons’ names.
There is much, much more — businesses she has started during the past three years that she put in the older son’s name. The older son, now almost 27 years old, has never held a job in his life. He has only “worked” with his mother doing real estate schemes, etc. We have eveidence of them filing fraudulent loan applications, etc.
This woman’s divorce lawyer says her client needs therapy becauyse she is so distruaght over her husband seeking a divorce and her helplessness.
There is so much more but the bottom line is that the judge’s law clerk is very sympathetic to this woman. And the older son is has been totally brainwashed by her. He accuses his father of “destroying hte family” even though his father had custody of the two boys and has been supporting them all this time. In fact up until two months ago, we were paying the mortgages on both hte house where we currently reside and the house where his sons reside. Two months ago, he asked his sons to pay rent. They both work — one in law enforcement and the other with his mother. The older son and the mother are running their business out of my fiance’s house!
The real devastation is that this woman will destroy the relationship he has with his sons. She is trying to destroy him by refusing to come to any sort of settlement agreement in the divorce case, forcing him to now commit to a lengthy and expensive trial. She is angry that he wants to marry me because I will get “get all the benefits she is entitled to and steal their sons’ inheritance.” I guess she thinks everyone thinks and acts like she does — despicably.
There is no honor, no ethics or morals between this woman, her lover and the oldest son. Sometimes my fiance fears for his very life because now he just doesn’t know the full extent of what she is truly capable of doing. The older son threatened his father if he insists on going to trial thereby causing all of their financial records, etc. to be subpoenaed.
I pray every day for a resolution to this so that we can just move on and focus on creating our lives together. I pray for a good relationship with his sons but sometimes it is very hard!
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Tuesday, 27 February 2007 @ 8:07am
glummerman says:
Althought I am not willing to use the lables “sociopath” or “psychopath”, I think my ex wife is a just an old fashioned “She Devil”. She turned out to be the most domineering, deceptive, abusive and manipulative person I ever met. Let me provide examples to illustrate, in case you’re doing what even I would do if I read a man writing something like that (doubting him). It might help some other poor sap out there trying to wrap his mind around the living hell a she devil has placed him in.
I really don’t know what she was in terms of lables, and don’t know if it matters. She constantly lied, manipulated, mislead, withheld information, got drunk regularly to “decompress”, acted absurdly jealous, and talked down to me every day in a way that reminded me of one of my frat brothers joking around and trying to “punk me”. At first, I laughed it all off.
Nevertheless, I was the greatest fool. The first red flag I chose to ignore came when she spit on the guy parking the cars on our first date when we first me. It was so far out, I thought it was amusing. Looking back, I see how stupid this is. Next, she told me in seriousness that she would shoot her step father dead if she saw him again. I laughed and jokingly offered to help, thinking she had to be joking about some really powerful feelings she was trying to get over. So I can’t say she didn’t come with a warning lable. Nevertheless, I married her, because I though she was unique, funny, smart, beautiful and basically a good person (yes, I can be very stupid sometimes).
Soon after we married, the hell began. She accused me of working her like a slave, and called the police on me as a reflex at least 10 times over 2 years, lying right to their faces in order to punish me. I stood by the truth, and was never really hurt too badly, but it was always gut wrenching when police took my liar’s word a face value time and again, in spite of her pattern of deception. However, let me say that I was once nearly killed, was falsely arrested and jailed, was professionally investigated the entire time, was robbed of thousands by check fraud and credit card fraud, was falsely detained based on her report that I was carrying drugs interstate, and was humiliated in front of friends and family, and was many more things that would have made the TV news if it were the other way around. It seems the system counts on that (men not making too much of the harm they suffer vs. protecting woman from the well known and broadly publicised danger of wife beating, which was made so in wake of OJ. They call it the “OJ effect” as one policeman put it). I like to call it “superbowl sunday syndrome”, because of the national PR about all the wife beating that takes place when losing team fans take out frustrations on their wives.
On the other hand, there is my reality. My wife once ran me over with her car. After getting out of the ER, where the doctor told me I was nearly killed (the massive trauma was close to the liver), I reported it, and the police did nothing, telling me it was a “he said, she said” situation, even though I had emergency room documentation. Police just told me over and over to leave, stay away and get a lawyer. When wifezilla was questioned, she just walked out of the police state “to feed the meter”, and bragged to me about never going back. She is a licensed private detective, and the most unethical professional person I’ve ever seen in action.
When we went for therapy the first time and the therapist was no good because she read the definition of love from the bible to us. At that point, I didn’t know she needed thousand of dollars in fertility treatments for us to have a chance at having a baby, time was running out, and it was all my fault from her point of view.
The second therapy we went for was worse, as I found out she could not have children, was blaming me for it, and was demanding we adopt ASAP, even though we were broke. With the second psychologist, I found that she was calling him each week privately to voice her problems with me, trying to get me to go for private sessions. I found out later she was lying to him about me when the truth about us came out in due course. Soon thereafter, this second therapist’s work came to an end when she got the answer to the question she ask him: “is a person who has had several love relationships harder to treat, or is a person who has never been in love, or had few (by the age of 40)?” He told her a person who has lived without loving anyone was harder to treat, and she quit because that was her. She thought she had proof that our problems where really just mine because I had several relationships in 20 years, where feelings of love existed. She thought she would establish that I was at fault in some way more than she. But she was shocked when the psychologist told her it was harder to treat someone who did not really feel love toward anyone for 20 years (since childhood). On the ride home, she just smoked hard, pulling all the smoke she could, and saying “huh” (as in suprise) all the way home for 20 minutes.
When the next therapist asked her if she was molested, she said she was (which she never admitted to me until then), until a week later when she told me she was just lying to the doctor about being molested. She’d done that before, when she told me that she tried to commit suicide when she was 15, then told me months later that this was a lie. She never could answer why she’d lie when asked. She did it again when she told me her best friend proposed to her after we were engadged, but with a special plan. He said he would marry her “when our marrage did not work out”. There again, months later, she said it was a lie too. So it was month after she told me all her male friends ask her to have sex when she told them she was getting married.
When I left, she trumped up an affair to push her agenda, which is still ongoing. While she admits to “never trusting” me, she calls herself “a pioneer” for marrying me (whatever that means). Every time she got angry with me, she’d post a personal ad online, with a false age and marital status. She told me it was a way of “releasing”. She has trouble with booze too. There are just too many instances of fraud and lying to recount. Whether it’s to “protect herself”, or some chemical thing does not make a bit if difference to anyone who’se living the nightmare.
So is there a bias? It does not matter brother, if you are dealing with a she devil like mine. You just better listen to people around you and run like hell, no matter what you heart or chemicals, are telling you, because you can bet the only thing her heart is telling her is to pick your bones Jim. It’s reptile or insect politics, and you are just dead meat; your fear, obligation or guilt are just wasted energy when you are outrunning at crocodile.
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Sunday, 23 December 2007 @ 11:53pm
lostmother says:
Anyone any comments on coping with an adult daughter?
Mine fell back into our home 3 months ago, having been evicted after promising to sort out rent for a year (even back then both her father and I refused to be guarantor – we already knew in our bones, but had nothing enough concrete), with an astronomical amount of debt that she just doesn’t care about, and has fleeced EVERYONE close to her, including her little 15 year old sister.
Every day has been a shocking disaster, with promises and appointments broken, our home swamped with rubbish (possessions) that’s never sorted out.
I’ve busted myself trying to get some order and routine going, and to get her to get a job, but again she’s slipped the net, and is moving onto the boyfriend’s house, having convinced them what an unreasonable mum I am.
Every tomorrow she’s going to pick up her stuff, but no phone call, no appearance. If I cave and call her, I can already hear the tears, and the relentless patter of lies and excuses………..
The list goes on and on – the night she landed, she smashed up the car we’d given her only 3 months earlier, and that was the 3rd we were silly enough to give her. At least we refused to sort that one out.
I just twigged what was happening 3 days ago, and since finding these websites ( thank you google for making information accessible), it’s finally for the first time since she was 13 starting to make sense.
Any odd expressions I use, you’re reading English from New Zealand, last stop befor Antarctica!
I’ve also lived through her accusing her stepfather and a previous boyfriend of molesting her, and she’s been stalked, molested and raped by so many men over the years!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Saturday, 19 January 2008 @ 8:15pm
change06 says:
Lostmother- So glad you found this site. You recognizing the situation is first step. And keeping close to the blogs here will help. I suggest a good counselor, one who understands the dynamics of a sociopath personality and the persons close to them. One plus you have is that you are aware and can educate yourself not to be a victim and fall into the manipulation and conning trap. I am not in your particular situation, yet understand it must be devastating being that it is your own flesh and blood. You not buying into the lies and excuses will not make you much of a candidate for the role she needs you to play. Therefore, she will move onto someone/s that will be part of the game. Hang in there, be strong, keep reading and get help if you can.
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Sunday, 20 January 2008 @ 12:42pm
relly59 says:
Finding this site was a blessing. I am frightened for my female friend as I believe her mother is a psychopath and may actually carry out her threat to kill her. The mother has assaulted her and had the police arrest my friend for the assault, hopefully we will be able to expose what she really is in Court next month!! My friend is the product of her mothers’ first marriage and mum detests her with a passion as she reminds mum of her first husband and cannot stand the sight of her or any successes she has, she wants to destroy her any way she can. MUm is also extremely manipulative and convincing, conning the authorities to permit her to take care of her grandmothers financial affairs. (there are 4 generations in this family) I also believe mum is after her own parents estate as she was taking all the right steps to get control. I have stepped in and removed some of those to protect the grandparents of my friend at this stage, and I hope it’s enough. Mum has also got two other daughters who are just like her – frightening – and they all know how to ‘play the system’ to their advantage. I’ve never seen anything like this before, how unbelievably good they are at acting – they deserve an Academy Award for their performances, yet people fall for their lies even despite ‘Evidence’ to the contrary. To say this is scary as well as frustrating is an understatement. My friend is terrified her mother will kill her, and /or her grandparents for their assests and / or set her up for their deaths, and I have seen enough to be totally convinced and extremely concerned, but don’t know enough about what to do to help protect them from mum at this stage, but I’m learning, I just hope fast enough. The lawyer we have spoken to said mum fits the classic definition of a female psychopath, so we’re hoping he will have enough skill to expose her lies and manipulations in Court.
Fingers crossed. Any advice from others who relate to this?
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Monday, 9 June 2008 @ 5:32am
OxDrover says:
Somehow I missed this thread until Relly brought it up to the recent comments list—unfortunately, most of these stories describe my P-son’s “behavior” and his “wild A$$ plots”—-plots that would sound like a bad novel no matter how true they are.
These stories of female cons and psychopaths are truly scary. They seem so much more filled with RAGE than the average male Psychopath—a sneaky rage that seethes and festers. Of course this may just be because so many of the female Ps actually go undetected and only the really blatant ones get reported in the news. If we only judged psychopaths by the “serial killers” maybe we would get the same picture of most male psychopaths as we seem only to get the media notice of the really outrageous females.
The female prison population IS rising faster than the male prison population, so maybe they are being prossecuted more, but certainally not enough, and not harsly enough. My X-DIL-P got only 5 yrs probation and a felony conviction, while the Trojan Horse-P, her BF got 3 yrs for one crime, with a long list of previous crimes (all felonies, including child molestation X3)
Apparently she has moved on to her next male victim (probably met on the internet) since I was successful in making sure her BOy Friend did NOT get out on parole quickly after she got out of jail, and owuld be in there at least another two years, and she wasn’t about to wait for him to get out and support herself in the meantime. She seems to have an aversion to working at a job to earn money for her own support. She seems to think that it is easier to steal from old ladies who trust her.
I am just grateful to God that this woman is out of my son’s life and that he is OUT OF THE FOG of trying to make that “marriage work.” Without her actually trying to kill him, I’m not sure he would have ever given up and divorced her, so it is an “ill wind that blows no one good.” This ILL WIND did in the end, blow a LOT of GOOD—she is out of our family. My son sees the truth. Praise God from whom all blessings flow, and her exposure was a BLESSING I am SO grateful for!
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Monday, 9 June 2008 @ 8:39am
Wini says:
You don’t know where to find female sociopaths. My God, I worked with them for years. Really look in any office in the country, they are there behind the powers of any company USA. Destructive, totally destructive. They come off like they are sweet angels, when in reality, they know exactly what they are doing. Playing everyone for every thing they can get. And yes, they play the system for everything it is worth and hide behind their female helpless role, poor little me baloney. They are usually the presidents’ secretary or administrative assistant or right hand person of whatever title. They ensure they get the ear of the boss and fill the poor man’s/woman’s head with their nonsense. Ruthless, nonsense that has destroyed more careers than I care to think about today, including mine. Oh, and they tell you how they went to church on Sunday. Give me a break here with all these self serving creatures slithering on our earth. These women ensure they sleep with more than their share of executives in the company … ensuring there is a circle of the elite in the center of things running everything. Open your eyes as to what and how they take over a company. You can read all the by laws of the company and all the equal rights and opportunities, all their laws and all the fairness of employees rights etc. and they (the inner circle) will ensure you are done under any time you figure them out or your qualifications are a threat. You are up against a wall of them … all former and current lovers, doing you under. I know in my heart of hearts that none of these creatures ever read the Bible, but they’ll quote a few memorized scriptures just to throw you off. It comes down to people in positions of authority in this country, from politics, to the courts, to law enforcement to teachers, to clergy, we’ve got to insist people are well versed in reading our Bible and stop passing these airheads threw the system and allowing them to get into positions of power that affect us all. Anyone, and I mean anyone should be grilled incessantly of what their knowledge is of God’s word. Period. Our country was built on the word of God, did we all forget this? It’s time for all of us to stop being lazy and read our Bibles, ensure our politicians read their Bibles, ensure all our officials sitting in positions of authority read the Bible, not just attend church which is community, but to actually pick up the world of God and read it to obtain and learn wisdom. If anyone gets just one passage wrong, give them a make up exam … let them go back and read that scripture until they get the answer correctly. Now this is an easy way to ensure the right person is sitting in a position of authority. Reading, studying, knowing the word of God.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 5:06am
patriotdad says:
I take exception to your ending statement of this article.
“In conclusion, sociopathy is less common in women. Women who are sociopaths may not appear as shallow as men who are sociopaths. They are also less angry and impulsive compared to men. Although violence is less commonly perpetrated by women, if you are the victim, these statistics don’t matter.”
It is this myth that helps many female sociopaths to continue to prey on the public at large. This myth has been busted regularly but lives on with a life of its own.
An extensive scholarly summary of research on this article can be found at http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
This is just one of several summaries which can direct to the actual studies. These are all peer reviewed and critiqued.
Also, the U.S. Dept of H&HS maintains a site with DV statistics and their data shows a much greater balance of DV and when the numbers include children who are DV victims, the figures on who perpetrates the majority of all DV becomes very difficult for some to comprehend in this period of time where the media and certain political ideologies maintain an anti-male witchhunt that makes Salem appear pale and un-inspired.
Violence is a human condition and for now we are finding it in all men where it exists in a minority, but excusing it for nearly all women. The first step to controlling DV is to level out the investigatory, prosecutorial, judicial, and sentencing guidelines to a gender neutral standard. As it is half of our society, women are immune except in the most extreme and even then as with the Tennessee Preachers wife and her shotgun, the penalties are shamefully lacking. This does nothing but perpetrate and actually multiply the incidences of children of both genders who grow up to be abusers. Giving a sociopath custody of children is not a very bright social policy. But we do it with socio/psychopathic women every day, all day in our family courts. As a matter of fact the more disturbed and willing to scream obscenities and make outrageous and improbable false allegations a woman is the more likely to obtain custody of children, property, and future income from some innocent man. I have seen one socio/psychopathic man win custody, property and income using this tactic and an attorney known for being sadistic in professional circles.
These myths hurt our society beyond measure as well as destroy individuals. I hope you research this further before making such claims about DV. This myth was originally perpetrated upon the media and Congress for the politcal advancement of certain supporters of an extreme misogynistic feminist movement. It was a mega-example of the method that works in court, scream obscenities and make improbable false allegations at the top of your voice long enough and someone begins to believe.
My ex and the mother of my daughter is a sociopath with psychotic episodes. I have spent 14 years of constant court activity just to protect my child from some of the more extreme abuses. My ex has been kept as sole managing conservator in spite of her open court admissions of felonies involving our child and the conviction of one of her family members for abusing our child and others. My chilid after 14 years of this, at the age of 16, thinks that her life is normal. She once told me that the individuals her mother openly admits to being child abusers in her family are “OK, and just people being people.” the courts ignore even my ex’s own litigation experts who give me glowing diagnosis and opinions.
As an activist court watcher, I am beginning to see more and more women become victims of this tactic that was once solely allowed to be used by women against men. When the pandora’s box of myths used as reality is opened, who will put each one of these evil demons back into the box?
Gender bias is the primary tool of female socio/psycho paths in maintaining a ‘business as usual’ abuse of others, even other women.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 6:30am
patriotdad says:
I can fully identify with glummerman as to the personal attacks of all categories, including murder attempts. It is the threats towards our child that are the most frightening. I, too, have been jailed on false allegations. The courts do not want to count the documented volume of allegations made by my ex against all who anger her. I have documented over 20 sex abuse allegations alone against over 12 people. And, she never has been held accountable. It has cost me well over 7 figures in 14 years to try to minimize the harm to my child and protect myself enough to be able to stay in touch with my child. The thousands of issues created and raised in the past 14 years since the divorce can fill volumes. The file in the court is contained in two boxes. Half of the court’s file is now “missing” some of the more graphic and revealing exhibits and filings. Some of the specific events of the past 14 years in my case have been documented in Dr. Stephen Baskerville’s new book, “Taken Into Custody”. I have watched even worse cases than mine as an activist court watcher in our local courts. The judges are very much aware of who the innocent and who the guilty are, but will laugh away from the courtroom about doing the PC thing when it comes to gender rulings. It is OK for others children but they would go ballistic if these things were happening to theirs. I have known people driven to suicide and self-destructive behavior after being hounded, stalked, and harassed for years in every aspect of their life by a sociopath/psychopath while the courts found humor and employment for their fellow attorneys.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 6:49am
Wini says:
I did my own research on female and male anti-social personalities as they came in and out of my 52 years. I always asked the victims of female anti-socials (that I knew were of this making), that’s after they licked their wounds and brushed themselves off and picked their lives out of the gutters to start life all over again … about their sex life with a female anti-social. First thing out of a man’s life was the sex. Not the love making … the sex. The sex with these women were intense. I then asked how was the “love making”, for which most responses were “what LOVE making”? If they had to look back and answer this question truthfully, they realized their was no love making what-so-ever with an anti-social personality. It’s all show, it’s all intense, it’s all done to make you feel like you are the most important man in her life. I worked with many anti-social women who hated decent bosses that believed in God, believed in their wives and home life, believed in truth and justice … that they did everything to ensure those bosses were out the doors and soon. These women detested working for decent bosses that they could not manipulate first sexually. After manipulating sexually, all the other tricks to their trades came out to play and every one is fair game to them. Lies are told behind everyone’s back to ensure they get their own way. I remember telling several of them (after they jumped into my life and snared me into friendships with them for years) that friends like you, I don’t need any enemies. Answer from the lead anti-social personality that controlled and manipulated all the other anti-social female personalities in our work place “she’ll be back, just wait”. I never gave my response directly to them … but my response got back to them “they don’t own me, I owe them nothing, I can’t change them, I can’t fix them, I send them love and peace, but I am not staying involved with any of them … they are on the wrong path in life”. Well, you never tell an anti-social personality that they are jerks, because, they are jerks. Jerks that jerk your life into the ground. The rest is history, this conversation took place in 1988 … they worked all the years from 1988 on to nail me… which started the beginning and the end of my career in 1998 until I retired in 2004. Six years of enduring the wrath of all the anti-social personalities that booted all the decent managers out of their positions and installed their anti-social cronies in their places and all the checks and balances were gone. To run that place through CHAOS, anti-social CHAOS. To say or do anything they wanted, when they wanted. Many people lost their careers during this time, but those anti-social women are still there, still allowed to weave their dark evil magic on all the new comers, still collecting paychecks, still getting promotions, still destroying careers and personal lives, still sleeping with bosses, still running the show from behind the scenes … and then some, still keeping the chaos growing. Bottom line, who in position of power does NOT read their Bibles. Who in the court systems doesn’t read their Bibles. And the chaotic saga continues until we ensure those we in trust with authority over our lives … Read the word of God.
2nd final note … Do not underestimate anti-social personalities … they are very good at putting a thought into a person of power’s mind … then backing off for years … out of sight and allowing this dark suggestion to flourish. Do not think they are up front and in the spotlight for anything destructive that they do … and they all have their fall person(s) to take the hit for them. That is their specialty. Planting the dark seed and allowing it to grow … and stepping back into the shadows to watch the fireworks that they lit the match years ago.
3rd Note … quotes from female anti-social personalities that I personally knew “I hate nice guys, they make me sick, they make my skin crawl”.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 6:51am
patriotdad says:
I once had a female psychologist, Dr. Anne Wheeler, tell me that evey man she knew had at least one brush with one of these women (with no boundaries they can cover a lot of ground) but most managed to get disentangled before too much damage was done. She also used the analogy of why these wome are so successful is what she called the “intense spotlight of their attention that can blind you of all else” until too late. Over more than a decade of now informed observation, I find her observation more revealing now than then. I was one of those deer in the spotlight of a poacher. Who warns us of these types of people? No one. Women are taught the signs of an abusive man. Men and boys are taught that all women are innocent, until too late.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 7:02am
patriotdad says:
Dear Free, My child is girl in high school. They have had programs for years for the girls, talking to them about abuse and spotting abusive males. There is nothing in the schools. Yes, I generalized. I admit. There will be a minority who do receive some formal presentation on how to spot a female abuser. But as with your son, who was lucky to get off so light, most of us have to learn the hard way (me for one). I grew up in a relatively happy and non-abusive home. Women as abusers were a real world shock. At 60 years of age, I have watched the steady degradation of women’s roles in our society from decent, caring, responsible citizens to an position of super rights and privileges for the least lawful and most abusive. I am amazed at the volume of young women who are now beginning to reject this concept and are working to regain their decency and to help men recover a position of full rights as citizens. Many of these good women are working to normalize or societies views of gender at great cost to themselves. It is my generation, the youth of the 60’s, who planted the seeds of feminism, based on the mythical generalization that all men were abusers for which we all are now harvesting.
You may want to look up ifeminist.com. Wendy McElroy is just one of these strong voices speaking to return to sanity and to stop putting our female sociopaths into a special privilege category that gives them blanket immunity to harm men, children, and even other women.
There are some very destructive male sociopaths, but our laws and society put up more than a few obstacles for these guys.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 7:28am
patriotdad says:
Incomplete third sentence in my post above. “There is nothing in the schools for boys on spotting female abusers.”
Just to clarify.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 7:30am
patriotdad says:
Free,
I like your screen name. After many years of being entangled with a s/p-path because of my precious daughter, I wake up each morning grateful that I am both “Free and Alive”. I thank God each morning for those two things. That would sound overly dramatic to anyone who has not survived these wars. But it is so very true.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 7:38am
scout says:
Hi,
I’m hoping that someone out there can help me with my female sociopathic neighbour.
She portrays herself as wonderful to my neighbours, while constantly harassing us when no one is looking. She constantly throws debris on our property, steals from us, damages our plants, smashes her car or lawnmower into our fence, throws excrement on our property all the while trashing me verbally to my neighbours. ( I suspect that she is accusing me to my neighbours of doing these things too her.) Three of my immediate neighbours no longer talk to me(which i don’t really care about)but what bothers me is that she interferes with our enjoyment of our property and is hell bent without conscience on screwing us over.
Once i threw the stuff back, and she called the police, and she portrayed herself as a damsel and convinced the cop that she had to fear for her personal safety. we took this woman in when she moved here, gave her a key to our house, and made her meals while her home was being renovated and in return she calls the cops who threaten to charge me with criminal mischief! she took photos of my husband talking to the cop so she could tell her stories around the neighbourhood.
I’ve tried ignoring her as she is just trying to provoke us, but I feel victimized in my own home. We’ve tried talking to her, but she denies there is a problem. Last weekend I photographed her while she was smashing her lawnmower into our fence and she looked around to see if anyone was looking and dropped her drawers.
We just want to live here in peace and hey, if you don’t like us, you live on your property and we’ll live on ours…but this woman is hell bent on destroying us.
Please help by sharing your opinion and advice as to how to deal with this situation please.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 9:41am
OxDrover says:
Dear Scout,
I wish I could tell you that there was a way to reason with this woman.
My suggestion is to install video survelience cameras (they make them small now and ones that even “see” and record in the DARK. Point them in the direction that will best catch her at her mischief and then RECORD the action.
I would also get a small pocket sized voice recorder and keep in ON and in my pocket if you ever have to talk to her, or if she starts screaming at you then you can push “record”
With this EVIDENCE you should be able to prosecute her with the LAW which should get your neighbors off your case as well.
This woman may be a psychopath or she may be mentally disordered or ill, but the problem doesn’t matter, it is causing you grief.
PROOF beyond a shadow of a doubt is I think your only option.
The price of the equipment to get PROOF is coming down and you can either install it yourself or get someone else to do so. It can even be disguised in light fixtures or other “normal” things, so it doesn’t look like cameras.
Good luck!
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 10:00am
scout says:
Thanks OxDrover for your suggestions. I’ve been thinking of cameras…whether they should be obvious or hidden but i’m leaning towards obvious as a deterrent.
I know that this woman hates exposure which is why she is so sneaky and an incorrigible liar.
She may be mentally disordered or ill or a sociopath, but one thing is sure; she is able to pick and choose her victims, is able to fool others with her lies, and is able to control when she chooses to act ( at night or out of the sight of neighbours) which indicates to me that she intends to target me, is aware that it is socially unacceptable and doesn’t want others to know. She has discredited me to everyone already, as I can see in their changed behaviour towards me that they believe her lies even though they have never seen me do anything to validate this.
Ugh, I’m frustrated and just need to vent to someone who has an idea what people like this are REALLY like. Damn, they could win an Academy Award for Acting. And those that suspect she is malicious and dishonest are too intimidated to say anything because they’re afraid she’ll turn her wrath on them.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 10:34am
OxDrover says:
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. If it were ME, just being the stubborn witch that I am, I would use the hidden cameras and then prosecute her with the law, just to show the neighbors that SHE was the problem all along. But, that’s ME.
Maybe SHE will move then! When she is outed! LOL
Good luck!
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 12:48pm
patriotdad says:
Cameras and digital pocket audio recorder are a must. They have kept me out of jail on so many occasions I can not count them. My ex, on exchanges of our child, would call the police at least once a week. She would claim violence, threats, assaults, property damage, etc……. I had a video monitor system with a power inverter from Sam’s club in the trunk with the little cigarette packet sized camera mounted with velcro so that I could just stick it up no matter what the angle I parked. I would start the tape when I left home an hour and a half away and not turn it off until I got home. She would claim I would come to town early or leave late and stalk her, etc…..
I proved so many felony false reports and perjuries, my attorney quit counting. Nothing was done to her. But I was regularly being stopped by police, followed by police and in court bringing the tapes and recordings. The expenses were enormous but without them, I would be in jail like so many other innocent men.
OxDrover gave you the best advice ever and supported by four of my attorneys and more litigation psychologists than I ever wanted to know much less have to pay.
My ex even managed to make my self-protection tapes look like stalking and somehow “bad” that I used them to prove my innocence over and over again.
If she is really exposed, she may move out. These people are all about the image. How else can they maintain their scams.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 1:05pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Patriot dad,
You are a man after my own heart! Good job with the tapes for the child custody and visitation!
My X-BF-P burned his prior girlfriend’s house, after I broke up with him I figured he might try something similar on mine, so I made sure he knew that I had video survelience AND that my two sons would seek revenge on him. I wouldn’t have let them even if they had wanted to, but the P didn’t know that so having him afraid of my kids didn’t hurt anything either. So he hasn’t burned my house! LOL I even told him that if lightening sturck my house and I SAW the strike, I would still blame HIM! LOL
Good job, dad! Maybe you can use the same tactics against the neighbor, EXPOSURE will take the acadamy award out of her performance. LOL
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 1:30pm
Beverly says:
Dear Scout, I sympathise with you and it is so unfortunate that you are living next door to an anti social. It is a horrible feeling to be fearful of what you may find when you get home, or be afraid to leave your home for fear of damage.
Where I live we pray for rain, because that keeps the anti socials in, the darker evenings keeps the younger ones in. I have endured a fair amount of anti social behaviour where I live and we do not look forward to the long school summer holiday. I never go on holiday for more than a week, because I fear for my property. Alot of trouble is causing by a minority of the same teenagers and small children. Poor parenting I think is probably the root cause. There is one particular young man who lives a few houses up from me who has an ‘anti social behaviour order’ from the police. He doesnt go to school, his named is tagged on walls with drug pictures and because he is often up to tricks at night, speeding up and down at 3am on an unlicenced motorbike, he wakes everyone up. I have spoken to him and his mother on more than one occasion when he was lobbing bricks into my garden, but it is obvious that he cares not a jot. The geographical layout, where I live, makes it easy for them to get away with it. I have spoken to these children and their parents on many occasions about damage done to my property and I usually get abused. Most people here keep their heads down. There is a climate of fear, and I have spoken to people who have challenged and have also been abused, and this scares them off taking it further.
There is no community, so people are on their own. People here get away with behaviour that in more upper class areas, would not be tolerated at all. I think there were some articles written about anti social children in the UK – well I live in one such area and I have seen and experienced first hand, what they do and how they do it. I have my house for sale!
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 2:35pm
Beverly says:
Dear Scout, In the UK, you would be advised to keep a log of events and pictures that you can show to the police. In my experience, I have tried ignoring anti socials, often they just move on, but if they feel like targeting my property, they just do it. So in my mind, either way is not a total solution, confronting them just inflames them and they will be sure to get you back another day – like anti socials do – they want to make you pay. If you ignore them, they step up the action. I used to work as a community worker and when people group together there is much more power. Unfortunately when one person is bearing the brunt of the trouble, neighbours will often not intervene. In the good old days, people would not have tolerated this kind of behaviour.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 2:42pm
OxDrover says:
Well, Beverly, in some ways the “good old days” are here in my rural area–after the Crazy across the road SUED me for $50K$ for my husband “trespassing” on his land to DIE in the plane crash, the neighbors RAN HIM OUT OF THE COMMUNITY! The store wouldn’t serve him, the local veterinarian wouldn’t treat his animals, etc. so, sometimes the neighbors will help. Since my family has lived here since 1833 and he had only moved in here 10 yrs before, and had already alienated everyone anyway, the law suit for “HIS” DAMAGES–mental suffering! LOL
It never got to court of course, but my attorney told his attorney that IF IT DID there was not a jury in this county that would give him a dime, and there was a good chance they would TAR AND FEATHER him on the way out! I actually did have people offer to kill him for me! NO joke.
Of course in Scout’s situation HIS OX is the only one being “gored” so the neighbors who are NOT a “community” just keep their heads down. Which is a shame our society has come to that. One of the reasons I moved back here was I loved the SENSE OF COMMUNITY here, even now. Maybe not as much as it was when I was a kid, but still a sense of something besides a “house” among people you don’t know.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 3:14pm
Beverly says:
OxyD is that the guy who wouldnt pay you for renting your land? LOL yes, it is all crazy isnt it. It just shows you where people are at in their heads when they want to sue for a tragic accident on their land – where are their priorities??? We have a big suing culture here in the UK too. Some people make a living out of repeatedly tripping over paving stones in the street, so that they can sue the local council for compensation – even members of the same family have done the same thing!! LOL
Community is the one thing I mourn in its passing. People here have become very insular. Its is shame and also very dangerous. Things have changed alot.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 3:20pm
scout says:
patriotdad: thanks for the advice. your scenario with your ex sounds like an emotionally draining endeavour but it sounds like you have some good ways of disproving the lies.
beverley: when you say that confronting them inflames then and ignoring them causes them to step up the action…BINGO! there is no winning. this woman is hell-bent as i said on making life miserable. I have great difficulty understanding how anyone can be so mean spirited…it seems like such a waste of energy to spend time being so hostile and destructive. What is the satisfaction or payoff for her?
and no, i’m not moving. we built this house and i’ll be darned if anyone is going to run me out…but ignoring her doesn’t seem to help. beverley, how sad you’re moving because of nitwits interfering with your right to live in peace on your own property.
re: the camera suggestions: in canada we have privacy laws. i could only place the cameras to watch my property. she could continue to heave stuff over the fence without entering my property to do so and i would have no photo of her face, just the crap being flung over and be out the cost of the camera. any other ideas.
thanks again for your input, oxdrover, patriotdad and beverley.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 3:45pm
Beverly says:
Dear Scout. I understand and hear what you say. It is hard to say what the payoff for her is. Is she mentally ill? Was she living there before you built your home there? Do you have any dialogue with any of her family? Why is she so angry?
I have made my place into a lovely home and I have a beautiful garden. When people come to look at my place, they have all said, we like the house, but we dont like the area. For me, it is no good living in a beautiful house, if I feel under seige just over my wall. I value my peace of mind and contentment at the top of my wellbeing list, so I will just make another beautiful home somewhere else.
Here in the UK, if you report harrassment to the police, they will set up a camera. But I see your dilemma, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. There must be clauses to the privacy laws. The same here, local councils have cameras all over every town, I think the UK has a huge amount of cameras everywhere. The local councils had started to film people dropping litter, but they are not allowed to do that, because of peoples human rights.
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 3:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Scout–I thinnk I would figure out some way to GET A PHOTO of her doing it–then maybe confront HER directly and say, LOOK, if you do this again I will show this to all theneighbors—then if she threatens to take it to the police–when the police show up, say “WHAT FILM?”
I think that she is doing this for EXCITEMENT and malice, she has nothign better to do so she wants to create chaos–so if you can get proof, you can make her back off. That kind of person is soooooo careful of their “reputation” and if she knows you can expose her (even “illegally”) she should back off.
Just like me making my X-BF-P think that my kids would take revenge (like burning his house) as long as HE THOUGHT it, it put the brakes on him. SOMETIMES A GOOD BLUFF is all you need. You just have tomake sure that the person you are bluffing won’t CALL YOUR BLUFF. So picking your subject is important. your neighbor is doing this I think so she will have some “gossip” and some “sympathy” from the neighbors because her life is BORRRRRRING–she gets ATTENTION.
So if you can convince her that you will EXPOSE her for a FAKE to the neighbors—she will DO ANYTHING to keep that from happening—including LEAVING YOU ALONE.
It is the only way I can see that you can “win” in this one.
Beverly, no, this was NOT the same guy who wouldn’t pay the rent on the land, this was a neighbor who came in and bought land across the road from us. He was ADHD and very socially incompetent, he was a pest and a nuisence and was always over at our airport telling wild tales about what a “hero” he was, a CIA, NAvy SEal, FBI, 5,000 parachute jumps, etc. He didn’t even know enough to tell a believable lie, but he thought he would “impress” everyone and they would like him. Just a pest. I finally got to the point I would tell him to GO HOME, when the plane crashed he was the first person there besides me, my cousin and our hired hand, and he started asking questions and saying things like “I guess I better go call my insurance agent about all this damage” (there was $20 worth of damage and I paid that) He didn’t even offer to call 911 when people were on FIRE! I told him in NO uncertain terms to get the F**K away, and ran back to the house to call 911. HE WANTED TO BE THE CENTER OF ATTENTION at my husband’s death and the severe burning of three other people. I am sure he sued me to “get revenge” for my “embarassing” him at the scene of the crash.
When news of the suit got out (those things are published in the local paper) he DENIED that he had done it. Then when confronted about that lie, he said “Oh, I just turned it over to my ATTORNEY and HE did it” LIke an attorney will file suit for you and you don’t even know about it. LOL
I can laugh about it now, but at the time (a couple of days before the first anniversary of my husband’s death) when I was served with the papers I about LOST IT. Heck, WHY MINCE WORDS, I did lose it! LOL
It is nice that he is gone out of the neighborhood though. He still owns the land but it is up for sale and he has moved.
Sorry about the harassment about your home, I can definitely relate before the TH-P went to prison. At least they aren’t trying to kill you though, maybe that’s some consolation! LOL
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Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 4:43pm
onguard68 says:
This person turned out to be every suspicion I had about her and more.
ALL OF THIS IS RANDOM just so you get an idea.
I Ignored so many red flags. I think what kept me in was the money I invested in this relationship being 2 hrs away.
Annoyed easily at people or her own kids
Example: One of the girls would get ice cream from the freezer and ask mom is she would like some. Mom says no. The daughter would ask mom a second time before the ice cream goes back to the freezer and mom will in a rage say “what the f part of no didn’t you understand”?
Shouts excessively at her daughter during softball games pointing out mistakes made when it’s obvious the daughter is affected by the yelling. I did not observe any other parent shouting except for her ex shouting at his girl. I often observed other heads turn our way. I felt embarrassed at times both for me and the daughter.
The daughters tell their mom often “you are so mean”, “that was rude”, “stop yelling”, “and why are you so mean all the time”? She would explode if woken up by the kids from a nap. She napped frequently.
She would explode at any given moment by shouting at the girls when I saw the girls did nothing to be yelled at. Frequent rages. Yelling so loud it often startled me. I specifically recall a time when we came back from a softball game with pizza and she yelled at the girls so loud I glanced at her with a look of being startled and disgusted and remember thinking what the hell is wrong with you at that moment. She yelled because the girls were noisy and wouldn’t stop talking. She complained often the girls would never shut up and the one daughter is always full of drama and she’s sick of hearing about it.
Constant swearing at the girls. “It’s not my f’in problem”, “go figure it out genius”. I found myself in defense of the girls (often trying to stick up for them) putting the same comments using the same words back on her in an attempt to see how she likes it when treated that way. Then I was accused of undermining her as a mom simply while trying to protect the girls.
I would give her money for bills and extra money to get by until payday which was twice a month and she would use the money to go out or go out to lunch.
I would have to consistently defend my reactions or myself when she would get upset by a question I would ask her or an issue I would confront her on such as lying, especially if I called her out on a lie.
She says openly she is a control freak. She knows she is a bitch. Said, “Don’t ever call me a bitch the first week we met. If you try to help with the dishes, it will upset her. If you try to lend a hand with folding towels – she gets mad. If you try to help put groceries away – she gets irritated. If you say “I will drive” she gets angry if I insist to avoid shuffling cars.
I recall a few times saying it’s as if I can’t experience the real you. Like she was in a shell and very rarely see a glimpse of the true person. Just having that feeling of knowing something must have happened to her in her youth.
She said eary on that most of her friends are guy friends because women are too bitchy
She didn’t like watching TV. Seemed to be out of tune from movies and shows.
She always said “my girls love me” when I would try to talk to her about how she treats them. It upset me to hear her daughters calling her mean especially the 12 yr old. I thought it was tough love.
The oldest daughter 14 was more like her mom. Drama and careless and obviously on a downward spiral. No self esteem etc. Her mom doesn’t know how to talk to her to help her. Melissa would ask me what she should do. The girls have no responsibilities whatsoever and need to be forced and yelled at to clean up after themselves. The girls live like slobs. Don’t take dishes to the sink, leave a trail of clothes everywhere. Always messy rooms. Can’t put things away. These girls were never taught to do these things properly nor effectively.
She said within one week of meeting “you make me want to be a better person”. The first 2 months were nice, fun, exciting, and eventful but loaded with red flags. As I would start asking more questions or probing for explanations or to confront her on lies she became over time resentful towards me which escalated rather quickly.
THINGS SHE WOULD SAY:
“I need laid. I either get horny when I’m drunk or bitchy”.
“I’m going to spoil you”
“people f’in irritate me”
“I can’t make promises”
“it’s all about me”
“it’s not about you”
“it’s going to be my way”
“we get by but it might not always be pretty”
“what part of no didn’t you understand”
“looking out for number one”
There were many days I made the trip and within an hour was on my way back home. Her cold careless behavior whether I was in her life or not didn’t matter. I remember sleeping in a rest stop, a hotel parking lot because it was so late and I knew I couldn’t make the drive but I needed to just have her out of my sight. That cold hearted bitchy attitude fueled my anger and left me always wondering why do I stay and why do I constantly help her. I just kept investing and it became increasingly hard to walk away.
I felt like I was dating an escort or a prostitute. I felt like I was a secret boyfriend that she called on when SHE wanted to see ME. This created friction in the relationship. I confronted her many times about it. The fact that she wanted me to park my car in her garage on two separate occasions. The fact she didn’t want me to meet friends or her girls for so long. There were people she talked about regularly (name) who I never met or spoke to.
I think this one is very important to NOTE: Another odd behavior was when she went into a more of feeling threatened and even leading to telling me she will get a restraining order. This absolutely made no sense at all. We never had an argument that was anything more than a minute or two and it was usually over the phone. She would say “Is that a threat”? When no threat was made. But something I said made her feel as if I did. Very odd sense of over reacting. I suspect it was from an experience from her previous relationships that may trigger that behavior or response. Happened twice and both times I was 2 hours away.
She always felt complex to me, I couldn’t figure her out. I commented she needs to have a manual so I can read and understand her.
MEET MY WONDERFUL EX: SHE IS…
distant
stories never add up
inconsistencies or unexplained loose ends
cold
doesn’t cry
never says sorry
explosive
bad tempered
highly irritable
on edge
feisty
rigid
avoidance
admits she is a control freak
intense eye contact or none at all
lack of remorse or guilt*
lack of empathy*
insincere or deceitful*
deceitful and manipulative*
shallow emotions*
impulsive*
short-tempered or hotheaded*
obligations and commitments mean nothing*
“hair trigger,” their aggressive displays are “cold”
highly reactive to perceived insults*
appear completely forthright about the matter
shrug off personal responsibility for actions they cause
indifferent to the rights and suffering of family or loved ones*
handy excuses for their behavior or actions*
flighty
doesn’t show emotion
defensive
flips out
flips things around when confronted
road rage
constant yelling
difficulty compromising – done resentfully
irrational
no sympathy
no compassion
no feelings
no communication
no commitment
no talking about the future
constant lying
deceitful
always vague
easily annoyed
makes no future plans together
her behaviors become easily predictable
ready with a clever comeback
claims to have specific goals and little or no chance of attaining these goals
everything done on her terms
shuts down when confronted or explodes
avoids confrontation using txt or emails or excuses she’s is busy or napping
offers no explanation for her actions
she mentioned rules about what not to do or say when we first met. For example: don’t ever call me a bitch or we will be finished.
she has a book on the coffee table “Why men love Bitches”
Things she would say such as “I love you” don’t come across in her actions.
Any emotional feeling while rare appeared fake.
You will often feel shock and disappointment
You are and what you have/own are her possessions
I felt her actions towards me often created a reaction from me that further spoiled the relationship. There often was a feeling of shock or “where the hell did that come from, I just asked you a question”. High suspicions of cheating, overwhelming evidence is shrugged off as if you are crazy for thinking that way.
She will want you to make decisions so it can’t come back on her if things do not go as planned.
Smokes while pregnant
She had a ton of contacts in her phone
Her mail goes to a PO Box – Never saw a single bill or paper work around her house
Her parents in all the time at her house (3years) and live 10 mins away have never been there or even know where she lives
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Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 8:53pm
onguard68 says:
Here is a bit more (see my other post). I dated her for 7 months July 31. We split up July 14th after I moved almost all my things there to live with her and her 2 girls. I am losing my house and filing for bankruptcy. She is about 11 weeks pregnant. We found out June 25. We broke it off May 30 and I was done with her but got together one more time in the attempt to raise a child in a normal mom dad environment. At the time she got pregnant, I had the highest suspicions she was cheating. I mean within that week and the week before May 10th. I don’t even know if I’m the father although she insisted. Because she seemed to know a lot about abortion when I was first told she was pregnant I have a suspicion that she may abort and call it a miscarriage. I might be out on the limb with that but I have a hunch. When I first found out, she told me its up to me what I want to do. I said lets have it. She didnt cared either way.
I am such a wreck over this and it was only 3 days ago I came across psychopaths and it was as if I was reading my own story online. I am no doubt in shock and I hate this feeling I was duped when all along I had suspicions something just isn’t right and then shes calling you nuts and then you start questioning your behavior. Ugh! What a mess.
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Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 9:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Onguard68,
Sorry we had to “meet like this” on this site, but I do think you have found the right place to learn about the “train wreck” you were in. I don’t mean to trivialize your pain, confusion, etc. at all…because it IS A TRAIN WRECK when we encounter these psychopaths, and most of the time we don’t even know what hit us.
,
The best advice I can give you is to read every word written on this site, go back through all the old essays and blogs as there is a wonderful wealth of information here that will help you to comprehend what it is that you are dealing with, to help you heal and recover. It seems like you are starting to “see the handwriting on the wall” where she is concerned, and that is a good thing.
You’ve come to a healing place. Welcome.
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Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 10:31pm
holywatersalt says:
Onguard-
I think you can do the math…there’s a lot to do…namely…
find out if she’s pg. That may just take time..and then if she is, and she has child ( I do not support abortion, and would tell you it will only harm you too– not to mention the child) then well, it may not be yours. Lucky you I suppose but well it’s been nine months of thinking you are the dad.
This is awful all around. First no more sex with her, 2nd wait see if she’s pg, and then….well I’d do a background check on her. Warrants etc.? Maybe if she’s wanted, or a druggie etc. you can have her found unfit have those kids and the baby removed.
I’d start working on you first. But to be fair to the child she may be carrying – I’d stay in contact so that she does not abort out of spite.
rt…Better a live child…
OxD is right start reading.
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Saturday, 26 July 2008 @ 11:58pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Guys I would like to say something about personality types, specifically the MBTI grid. There are many different kinds of people who can become sociopaths, but there is one type that is particularly at risk for becoming one.. the ESTP type. These people are quite common in society, up to 13 percent of the general public. There is something of the con man in even the good ones, and their representative motto is a quote from PT Barnum: “There’s a sucker born every minute”
Still though, I do believe female sociopaths are more rare. Notice that they seem to be almost alien in their inhumanity.
holywatersalt.. if she wants to abort.. let her.. I know that’s mean but it’s not all about kids. This guy has a lot to deal with already.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 8:35am
onguard68 says:
Thanks OxDrover and holywatersalt. Im hanging in there. This site is a HUGE help. It helps be understand what happened and what to expect.
This whole thing would be so much easier to move on knowing if its mine and what to do next. Not knowing is the hardest. In limbo.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 10:01am
Beverly says:
Dear onguard68. I think when you mentioned the book on the coffee table, that summed it up for me, the female equivalent of a male reading ‘The Art of Seduction’.
But of course, the person you mention did not start the relationship like this, or I am sure you would never have gone with it. How were things to start with? You only went out with her for 7 months. Lots of things you mention sound so familiar. especially the part about hiding behind text messages. My exN was the master of the mobile phone, he had over dozen and still wanted to borrow two of mine? I looked for evidence and nearly went crazy.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 10:21am
OxDrover says:
Dear Onguard,
the suggestion about doing a back ground check might be a good one. I had a criminal back ground check run on the trojan horse psychopath and also on my DIL-P and came up with some interesting information. I tonly cost me $225 for each back ground check and I got criminal convictions on the TH-P (15 pages) and on the DIL pages of addresses where she had lived, and lists of the neighbors and phone number to where she had lived, years she lived there, etc. about the only thing I didn’t get was financial information which is now by law private in this country.
If I had needed to, I could have called the people who were either room mates or neighbors and found out I am sure more information about her. So there are lots of ways to get information that is GOOD pretty cheaply. The ON LINE investigations turned up nothing, so I would go to the phone book for a real licensed private investigator, which like I said, turned up some gooooood information that was very specific.
The real PIs subscribe to various data bases that get real information and many or most of the on line investigator programs got nothing at all.
You can also get information on forwarding addresses from the post office easily. It might take some leg work but you might be able to get some good information on this woman and how she operated in the past.
I would also, for your own protection go to your local STD clinic and get tested for sexually transmitted diseases. Many times the Ps are very sexually promiscious and have a higher rate of STDS. There should be a public health clinic that will do this for free, even without you giving your name.
The ticket now is to protect yourself, heal yourself, and take care of your own financial needs. See if you can find a free or low cost financial counselor to help you get back on your feet financially, and some counseling, Alanon is a good group and is free, and even though she might not be an alcoholic or druggie, obviously she is an abuser, so Alanon can help you with that. There are also group sessions for people who are “co-dependent” and you might also fall into that catagory, I don’t know, but basicly it is people who OVERLY fall for sad stories and try to “help out” people like your X and so if you have a pattern of this, you might qualify, just take it as a suggestion, I am not by any means blaming you for being a victim. I’m just thinking of ways you could get counseling and some support LIVE for free or low cost that might be beneficial to you.
Many times your friends will NOT get it about how injured you are, or understand how you let yourself get this involved. Most of us have had a great deal of trouble explaining to friends and family, some how they just “don’t get it” so have not been really helpful in our recovery. The person who does have friends or family that does “get it” if very fortunate!
Hang on and take care of YOU is my best advice. Come here and read and learn to give yourself tools and information to help you help you.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 3:15pm
onguard68 says:
Thanks OxDrover. Good suggestions. At this point it is difficult to keep a clear thought. I am having trouble keeping notes on what I’m reading as well. So much so fast. I agree with the co-dependent idea. Very well could be the case although if the case I can see how I will overcome that now.
Its not like I am ready to jump right into another relationship anytime soon.
Mom was just over, nope – doesnt have a clue in understanding at all and I’m not sure I want to lay this on my friends.
I feel fairly angry today. The NC for almost 5 days now is odd. I really cant believe she hasnt sent any txt trying to get me fired up. That is not like her. I feel a calm before the storm??? What is she likely to do now? Nothing until she has the baby? Nothing until shes about to be evicted?
3 things happened different this time around and might be why the txt stopped. 1) This time she is pregnant and I suspect I may not be the father. 2) I told her via txt (she avoids voice conversations) that my fertility test came back with less than 5% chance of achieving pregnancy and 3) I have an std or something and going to the doctor in two days. She knows im going to the doctor.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 7:05pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Onguard,
The not being able to keepp up with your thoughts and things seeming to whirl all round you in a storm of stress and chaos, that’s pretty normal.
Yea, it sounds like she may have been trying to pin the baby on you and now is wondering who her next potential “father” is. Boy, DNA sure does a number on these women trying to pin the “blame” for the baby on someone who cares! LOL
Feeling angry is normal too…just let it be an energizer to do some things for you, rather than lead you blindly to strike out. My thing was that my anger was so intense I did some pretty stupid things—like write to my P-son and give him the annunition to fire back at me. Keep all information about yourself CONFIDENTIAL—good or bad things that happen, do not share them with her. I can almost guarentee she will twiste them into spears to hurl back at you from ambush.
NOTHING in writing. NO contact if at all possible. Unless she has some of your stuff and you need to go get it. Even then, TAKE A WITNESS and a small audio recorder if possible. The ones they make now have such good mikes you can carry it in your pocket and get good recordings. You can also record phone conversations with it if it is LEGALa in your state. It is in mine if ONE of the parties (like you) kmows it is being recorded. It is illegal if neither party knows in MY STATE and different states are different so CHECK with an authority before you do anything. That has been very helpful to me.
As far as the “co-dependent” part, not lookkng for a relationship NOW is a good idea. I think most of us will agree to that here. Until you are pretty well over the healing process you will probably be pretty vulnearable, but if you do tend to be co-dependent the group support group for that would be very beneficial in helping you work on YOU and not ever again falling into a trap like that. I have found that while I can’t DO anything for them, my best “revenge” is to use this horrible experience as a learning experience and make myself better, and more functional and more healthy. I tended to try to “do more for others” than I did for myself, and that is one of those enabling/co-dependent typ of things I have had to work on very hard. Learning to set boundaries for others behavior toward me and boundaries for myself. I am not willing any longer to do for otherw what they should and could do for themselves. I am not willing to fix problems that their poor functioning and poor decision making brought on them. If I were able to “fix” them, what would they learn from making poor decisions? NOTHING. We learn by making mistakes and if I take away the consequences of your mistake, what has that mistake taught you? That someone else should take care of you?
It is difficult for me to make a 180 degree turn on some of this because I grew up in a family that taught me that other’s bad behavior was to be ignored or fixed, and that if I objected to bad behavior that I was the troublemaker, not the bad actor. DUH! So I’m having to rethink some of the precepts I have lived by all my life. It’s working, slowly, and I’m learning to make baby steps in setting boundaries and enforcing them without feeling guilty. the “without feeling guilty” is the biggest FREEDOM I have ever felt in my life, and I’m 61 (I’m the old lady here ha ha) But learning is definitely better late than never! Changing for the better is definitely also better late than never!
YOu ask what your X is likely to do now–my guess is that she is feeling “bitter and angry” at you that her little ploy hasn’t worked and that you may indeed not be the father of her child and so she is seething in anger, bitterness, and rage AT YOU for being so “bad” to her—so my suggestion is “look out!” That seems to be the usual MO with these people, so I am not a prophet, nor do I have a weegie board or crystal ball, it is just the “way they operate”—keep on reading and learning and you will see more and more and more of a pattern here. Yours sure sounds like an A+ in anger too, and they can actually be more dangerous than the others, so I would not let my guard down at all. Keep doors and windows locked, lock your car in a garage if you can or park it where she isn’t likely to be able to sabatage it. I’m not trying to make you paranoid, but just be aware that they can be VERY VENGEFUL, my X-BF-P burned down the house of his GF previous to me for dumping him to get even with her.
So just be ON GUARD.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 7:46pm
onguard68 says:
How were things to start with?
Beverly, In the beginning things were intense and moved fast. We communicated via email first, then phone then out of the blue at 9:30p on New Year’s Eve she called and said she wanted to come out for new years. She is 2 hours away and we got meet each in person only 20 minutes before the ball dropped. We kissed that night, actually she kissed me and the L word was dropped within a few weeks. She turned to me completely out-of-the-blue on one of the regular nights out with my friends for wings and whispered in my ear “I love you”. Then the rest of the first two months were 2 people moving too fast in one of those relationships you hear about that end up married in 6 months after meeting.
Last night I spent some time reading through past emails and found so many more clues and red flags. By Jan 18th I was ready to walk. Again by March 12th and so on and so on. It was like the hook you can’t get out of the fishes mouth. She had me hooked, intrigued more or less. I think she became a challenge to me to understand her. Based on my past relationships with 3 women all long term, she acted nothing like them. Things that were easy in the past ones were difficult in this one and vice versa.
I was always puzzled and always trying to figure things out where in past relationships I never felt that way. She was unlike any experience in the past. Very quick wit and funny, we seemed to smile and laugh non-stop in the beginning. The fun was short lived when I became increasingly suspicious that something isn’t right here and too many things are not adding up.
Mainly the things she would txt me. “I love you”, “we are kickass”, “I’m so lucky” etc never seemed to come across when we were together. I take that back, when she was here it was but when I was at her house it wasn’t. The relationship appeared as if she was trying to fit me in on her terms. I commented several times “you are the busiest person I think I ever met” in a sarcastic way. I’m a busy person, was then and I made time no problem. After the first 2 months is just felt as though there was someone else. Like I said earlier, things that were easy in past relationships became so difficult. Natural things that happen when two people are in love.
The constant catching her in lies was getting bad, meaningless lies. For example: She told me early on (Jan) she had to help her boss set up quickbooks for the lady she worked for part time at a mortgage company and also owned the bar she worked a few nights at. She was also part time at a small CPA firm, her being the only employee. So apparently she set her quickbooks up, that’s what she said. Then in March she said the same thing, she said I have to go set up my boss’s quickbooks, I’ve been putting it off. I said I thought you already did that?? She said “no, I haven’t had time”. Then in June once again her boss and I heard her boss on the phone this time ask her when she can come and setup her quicksbooks. My X told her “I know I have been putting that off since the beginning of the year, I can come over tomorrow”. Completely forgetting that she already told me she did that two other times.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 7:51pm
southernman429 says:
My female socio was beautiful, charming and so much fun!.. then it all went south, the “rules” of the relationship started to change daily, and I couldn’t keep up with it… I was depressed and sad and couldn’t undertsnd why… wasn’t I supposed to happy with her?… Hard to imagine a woman who was gentle, giving to the homeless, physicaly beautiful, charming, lit up the room when she entered, I was so proud of her and thought how lucky I was to have her in my life….. then…. she turneed on me and became somebody she hated.. after I had lavished on her love, money, gifts, attention….. the biggest shock was how cold, emotionless, hateful she became… then she walks out without a care and totally wiped everything away like I never exisited….. I had never met anyone in my entire life that could be so coldhearted…. and evil… all in a beautiful package that most men would clammer over each other to just get a chance with… I learned so much….now… beauty and charm mean nothing.. being a mother means nothing.. telling me that I am amazing, exceptional….means nothing…. onguard68, I feel for you and know your pain….. these female vampires will suckthe live force out of you, then hang your dried out husk on their web, as a trophy, with the others, as they have already have the next victim in their sights….. BEWARE of women with a anger issue towards men.. even if they treat you nice at the present moment, it’s only a matter of time before their unresolved anger towards men in general is turned in your direction, and you will be the focus of their rage aganist mankind…. and it will never matter how nice and wonderful, understanding you are towards them… this is the truth.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 7:55pm
onguard68 says:
southernman429, yep I’m with you, beautiful, fun etc. Wow you sound like you met her!!! I commented to her during one of our break ups that “just chalk me up on that board of yours – you have another one come and go from your life”, feeling used and assuming this was her pattern but not knowing for sure.
As far as I know, she was married for 12 yrs with the father of her two girls and she told me she stayed because of the girls. She also said she had plans well in advance for the day she was going to leave him. Then I know of one other guy she dated for 3 yrs. She said they argued all the time but she said it was because of his drinking. I don’t buy it. I think what he went through is the same thing I did. He is still around in the sense of one of her girls plays softball his girl. So he is around, I met him many times but never asked him anything but always wanted to. I even feel like calling him. Not sure if that is a good idea but there is no friend of my X I can call on to ask anything about her. I’m left removed from her world, her circle of friends, isolated.
Here is something worth noting: My X told me about her 12 yr X that he used to mark chalk on the garage floor to see if she left the house and did other things out of suspicion that she may have been up to something. I just found that out less than a month ago. My X told me that!!! I’d say from middle of March til June I had every suspicion she was up to something. Just nothing she said made sense anymore.
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Sunday, 27 July 2008 @ 8:24pm
Not2bforgot10 says:
Wow, I cannot believe my eyes… I just found this forum today. I started researching psychopaths (aka “Antisocial personality disorder”) because I suspected my partner (so-to-speak) is a psychopath. I couldn’t be more right. It is unbelievable the stuff I am reading. It is unfortunate that these posts are from 2008… I wonder if any of the members are still around? I would absolutely love to talk to some other folks on here who have experienced similar issues as I have.
I may at some point list all of the things that I have experienced and endured, but I am going to recharge myself right now. I am a bit exhausted from all the reading. I have some house chores I need to do right now!
Coming soon!
Let me know if you’re available for chat
Support is good and necessary at this point.
Thanks!
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Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 11:22am
blueskies says:
Hello Not2bforgot10
I have discovered a young female sociopath in my family quite recently, so I would be very interested in this topic being picked up again.
I look forward to hearing from you and am sorry that you have to be here but glad you found us:)
P.S – this doesnt really work as an ‘instant message’ type chat room… unless we’re all on line at the same time… which doesn’t happen to me often, but if you post or have a question…LF folk will respond!:)x
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Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 11:31am
Zen says:
Not2bforgot10
I know two sociopaths both female and they both are similar in many ways but there are some marked differences. One is more clever than the other better able to hide her issues. The other has issues with self control so her issues are very blatant. The more dangerous one of course is the more clever of the two.
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Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 12:27pm
Not2bforgot10 says:
My energy is still spent from having been up late last night, stressed, and reading, and from having read most of the morning today, but I will try and respond either tonight or tomorrow.
Anyway, I am really glad that some people responded on here… I thought that the thread was old since the last person that wrote was in 2008. Do you know if onguard is still active on here? I really related to this sharing… everyone else’s, too, of course
I am hesitant to share how I am feeling until I first share my situation and all I have endured, but I will say that my energy is literally spent, and I am drained and have been highly depressed for quite some time, particularly now since my sociopath partner and I have split up (Things are very confusing between us… to say the least, we are both trying to distance ourselves from one another but keep engaging in push/pull acts), but happen to be living under the same roof. Long story… as I’m sure you know
I’ll talk to you guys later.
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Wednesday, 7 April 2010 @ 1:35pm
Outlier says:
scout, are you me writing about my neighbour!? We know the same person, or you are me! My neighbour cried tears to my family, and my DSM sister was right behind her every stepof the way.
Wini, your post on Tuesday, 24 June 2008 @ 6:51am
re: [...I did my own research on female and male anti-social personalities as they came in and out of my 52 years. I always asked the victims of female anti-socials (that I knew were of this making), that’s after they licked their wounds ...] It was when the DSM neighbour planted that seed of thought in me that I startted researching online. her words had neon blue and lime lights; and I guess I have to thank her for being less subtle (even if it was subtle as hell, and only me and her in her home witho nobody to hear her); The dialogue you exhange with a sociopath is quite unlike any other. If you repeat what she says it sounds utterly hilarious. They hate hearing their crap back. try it; it makes them uncomfortable.
spot on all the way.
My DSM sister met her husband (boss) when his first wife was terminally ill. This lady woudlhave met my sister in her vulnerable state; she would have met this woman who came into her husband’s life. Her husband said his first wife said something about my sister he cannot reveal for its severity. After her death I was invited to a group spiritual reading, her name (spirit) was around me : “she is angry” was her message. My sister and BiL were courting. It pains me what she experienced with my sister. She was flirting with him during her last few months. Perfumed cards. She was so intent on getting him and knew it wouldnt be long. I saw all this right in front of me; no awareness of what others can see. She masturbated when I was sharing a bed (I was at uni) – she can do anything. She could scream at her toddlers with wide staring eyes and a voice that carries ugly threat. She’s a f**ng disgraceful mother when nobody’s watching. But the world see’s a doting mother. She performs much of her abuse to others (inc her children) in front of me; knowing I am silenced and would never speak up. It’s my word against hers – and children either go wit my word or deny it (to avoid punishment).
I have a slim pocket size digital recorder. I must use it I think. Gather up decades of evidence.
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Monday, 10 May 2010 @ 5:17pm
Outlier says:
Not2be4gotten, when you are ready. We are all ready to listen and respond. It hurts and we know the kind of pain. I didn’t think anyone knew, then realise people have known this kind of pain well before you. Sites like these are protect us in the raw stages. It then helps us heal, educates how to avoid further pain.
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Monday, 10 May 2010 @ 5:50pm
onemorevictim says:
Wow.just registered today. i had a relationship with a girl for 4 years that is clearly a psychopath. i noticed odd things in her behavior very early on but i didnt know what to make of it. I live in rio de janeiro. im a foreigner and have been living here for more than 5 years. she´s an absolutely stunning beautiful girl which she uses extremely effectively. better than anyone i have ever met. i was fascinated by her almost imediately. My sex life with her was amazing, intense, anamalistic. i was addicted to her. i had a best friend help me with my situation for some two years. i would send him emails she had written me for him to analyze as well as conversations via skype or messenger that i had recorded. this site has been a wealth of information for me and has caused so much relief for me. whn i told people what i thought of her they wouldnt believe me and must have thought i was exagerating as she made herself to be very innocent. she had the most devilish gaze ive seen in a human being and i can relate to endless stories on this site and others. she sucked all the energy out of me for years. i could see that she enjoyed it. this was her only goal. i am a wealthy individual but she never used me for financial reasons. she manipulated and lied about so many things with so much calm and precision. she was the best manipulater i have ever met without a doubt. soemtimes i found myself in situations that made me think that for her to have caused this she would have had to plan it for months, which was the case.
she would write me emails about how much she cared for me but i never saw any truth behind it. no feelings whatsoever. and she has every charicteristic of a psychopath.always smiling without a worry in the world. manipulates men like crazy. makes everyone believe her stories and lies. she wanted to get married but i knew better. she still sends me emails and writes me like the nicest human being and i can see that it is all fake. its amazing. it was the worst relationship ive had in my life. intense as hell. as dramatic as they come. she still lives in rio and is on to her next victim. a young brazlian soap opera actor. im not worried a bit and im so happy i found this site and others. and more relieved than anyone that i was able to flee without a problem even though those were the 4 worst years i have ever had in a relationship. i thought it would never end. i searched for some sign of some kind of authentic feeling in her since i met her. never found any. i had never come across another human being like this so i had no idea what i was dealing with. i literally studied her for years until a friend asked me one day. do u know what a psycopath is? it took us both years to finally understand what was going on since she showed signs of liking me so many times and i wanted it to work. everything in these blogs about psycopaths fit to describe her perfectly. its amazing. everything. she has one hell of a weapon. shes absolutely beautiful. one of the prettiest girls i know in rio de janeiro, which says a lot. she felt insecure with me at times because im a good looking man myself (not trying to sound arrogant, just explaining the situation). her insecurity just came from the fact that she was worried that she could lose the person she was sucking so much energy from. Ive never had so much energy sucked out of me in my life. Everything she does is subtle and is executed perfectly many many times agressively as well. But always with the intention to hurt. extremely vindictive. I didnt even know the definition of the word until i met her. she is so affective in making others feel badly even if she is at falt its amazing. it has been great for me to share this story with you all. it took me a long time to get over her and i thought the day would never come. This is a relief for me. I know one thing now. I know exactly what a psycopath is. and yes women can be psycopaths. and more accuretly the most dangerous of the psycopaths. poor poor women. i feel so sorry for them. NOT!
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 2:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear onemorevictim,
Welcome to LoveFraud! I am glad you are here and found your way out of the relationship with that predator! It is really good when men are strong enough and open enough to come here and share their stories. I know there are so many more men who are victimized by these creatures who don’t really know what “train wreck” hit them, or figure it out!
Again, please stick around, I think having men here is so good for Love Fraud, as well as for the other men who come here to read and don’t feel as open as you do about sharing. Sharing what we know about these creatures is so helpful to us all! Again, welcome!
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 6:53pm
Rosa says:
Hi OneMoreVictim:
Thank GOD you did not marry her.
My brother is married to one, and it’s a pathetic situation.
Consider yourself blessed that you got away, and never had children with her.
You are now free to move on to healthier relationships.
And you also have some valuable insights about what NOT to fall for ever again.
Welcome.
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 10:17pm
Buttons says:
{{Onemorevictim}} Gotta change that site ID! We are “victims” as long as we continue to tolerate the games that these people play when we know that they will only continue to harm us. You are a Survivor, Onemore, and it’s a very good thing to be.
Female spaths are (WERE) much more difficult for me to detect because I never considered that women would want to inflict the same type of damage that their male counterparts did. But, this is just not the case. I recently had my own experience with a female spath (former friend) and I was shocked to see so many CLEAR indications that she fit the profile early on.
This is an excellent site to learn, heal, and help educate others through your own experiences, Onemore. But, I have to say, change the ID!
Brightest blessings!
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 10:18pm
frontporchtalker says:
I am responding to your subject: “when women are sociopaths” and Identity theft
I am a woman who was the victim of a woman sociopath. I’ll call her MP I am a well-educated person, formerly a college professor and a writer. Somehow, I thought that I was “too smart” to be taken by a sociopath.
I was badly mistaken. I would like to tell my story, if your blog will permit this new subject. Let me say that I am so grateful for all of your stories on this subject: I thought I was crazy!
Thanks,
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 3:49pm
blueskies says:
Hi Frontporchtalker. sorry you have to be here:(
Not sure you have to wait to be invited to share your story…I say go ahead.x
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 4:00pm
OxDrover says:
Der Frontporchtalker,
Pull up a rocking chair, fix yourself a cup of tea and share your story with us. There are a GREAT MANY really smart and well educated folks here, so you are in great company as well.
I’m sorry you have need to join our “club” but if you have a relationship with one of these monsters, this is the best group of folks to help you heal, and there is wonderful knowledge and inishgt here in the many archived articles. So pull up a chair, and again, WELCOME!!!!
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 4:14pm
hens says:
Frontporchtalker – Welcome, please tell us about this female sociopath ‘michelle’ BTW I love your username.!~
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 4:47pm
Donna Andersen says:
Front Porch Talker,
Feel free to tell your story either by posting it as a comment or sending it to me in an e-mail – donna@lovefraud.com.
Please don’t include any identifying information.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 4:49pm
hens says:
Welcome – Onemorevictim.
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 4:51pm
ErinBrock says:
Frontporchtalker:
Welcome to LF…..there is so much information ans support here to lift you out of the hell.
They are certainly a mind blower…….and guess what…..we all fall for em.
Smart, rich, poor, educated/uneducated, pretty, nice car or not……Once a spath identifies YOU….and what ‘you’ can give them……they are like leeches…..they suck right on until you notice them sucking.
I look forward to hearing more from you…..welcome to LF.
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 6:29pm
ErinBrock says:
Onemorevictim:
Welcome to LF.
Stick around and you’ll gain insight from the posters and other articles.
It’s a long journey to trust again…..but it’s doable.
You’ve got a good start landing up here with the knowlege you came with…..
Again, welcome to LF.
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 6:32pm
frontporchtalker says:
Jeez, I feel honored to be in the company to such honorable folks.
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 7:09pm
frontporchtalker says:
So, let the healing begin!
ha, haa.
I love your humor here too…..it’s saved my life.
Literally…………
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 7:13pm
ErinBrock says:
Frontporchtalker:
This is a serve yourself kinda place…..so head on over and grab a cup o java……and fill us in!
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 7:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Front porch talker,
Yea, I agree with you about the dividing in to paragraphs, but I am the QUEEN of the RUN-ON-SENTENCE so I guess I should not complain about the writing styles of others! Mrs. Barlow never did get me to stop with the run-on-sentences!
Glad you arrived here at our little Oasis in the world of the psychopaths that we have all escaped from—well, more or less, and some more wounded than others, but we are all climbing up on the road to healing and trying to work our way throught the abyss and the pot holes, and not get lured off the road by the Siren Song of the psychopaths trying to distract us.l
There are lots of turns on the paths, and sometimes the signs aren’t clearly marked, or we fall into despair of a pity party for a while, but there are some great folks here and we all love a good yarn. Especially since these yarns are BETTER THAN FICTION and they are true, no one who hadn’t lived one of these yarns would even comprehend that TRUTH IS MUCH STRANGER THAN FICTION. My therapist thought I was a paranoid delusional nut job until I brought in court documents and a witness to testify that I wasn’t imagining that “everyone is out to kill me.” LOL
Erin Brock was diging up her yard cause she thought her x had buried cans of drug money there….and when he was arrested for interstaste transport of drugs, who knows, she might be right, but unfortunately hasn’t found any of the money yet!
Henry keeps a loaded paintball gun by his door and sleeps with 3 weiner dogs, and I keep a hog-leg pistol under my Bible on my bed, so we are defintely a DIVERSE GROUP of folks, with MDs, college profs, professional artists, writers, jouranlists, lawyers, medical personnel, therapists, etc. you name it there are one or two of us here. We are skinny, fat, old and young, parents, no kids, gay, straight, not sure, Christian and atheists and every thing in between. But we are all well aware of what damage a psychopath can do to even the strongest of us if we don’t take care of ourselves.
So again, get off your mule,” light and hitch, pull up your rocker and set a while” we’re all ears!
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Monday, 14 June 2010 @ 8:45pm
frontporchtalker says:
Couldn’t we at least have some sweet iced tea and boiled peanuts (virtual, of course), or maybe somebody could shuck some corn, so I wouldn’t feel so self-conscious about telling my story? ha, ha.
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 10:05pm
frontporchtalker says:
Okay, I’ll try to just tell the Narrative, at least Part One of the story, without too much of my smarty-pants humor. Are y’all comfy on the front porch?
It’s gonna be a long, bumpy ride…ha, ha!!!!
okay, okay, get with it.
Wait: i need a fresh piece of paper first (recycled of course), and my fountain pen,….
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 10:08pm
frontporchtalker says:
My Life with a Sociopath(s): A Narrative, PART ONE
I first met a woman whom I’ll call “MP” about 12 years ago, while I was attending Alanon, a 12-step program for FAMILIES of alcoholics.
MP was in A.A. as well, and had just moved to town, 300 miles away from her home town, where her 2 teenaged girls were living with her ex-husband–he had custody! (RED FLAG) They also didn’t like their mother.
MP used “recovery” as a cover for herself, so I would be more likely to trust her. She reminded me of my own mother who’d just died of alcoholism (as well as my father)…the disease runs rampant in my family, except for me.
I was the perfect profile of a victim: I was “codependent” and “people-pleaser,” and a person who prided myself on my high moral grounds.
MP, it turned out later, also fit the profile of my abusive alcoholic mother. Like my mother’s drunken rages against me and the emotional abuse, MP knew how to use rage to control me.
MP had what I never had: FAMILY! I was her friend for a couple of years and had my own family, or so I thought. It was my weakness. I was never in love with her: but she exuded family, unless you count that her daughters, who came to live with her, seemed to hate her.
My other weakness: humor! It didn’t matter that I wasn’t in love with MP, in any sense of the word, she filled an empty void in me: humor and family.
And, she always complimented me and had demanded that her teens treat me with utmost respect because of high standards of morality.
I mean by that I felt compassion for MP and felt survivor’s guilt
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 10:43pm
frontporchtalker says:
One more thing (as always) as I read your post, especially from you, OxDrover and Erin Brock, I was amazed about the part where people thought you were delusional and psychotic…..me too!
I was committed for 2 weeks against my will, because I told a doctor that I’d written the F.B.I. (Id Theft) because of my case. The doctor, AND my “best friend” had me committed bc they thought I had imaginary delusions that “I wrote the F.B.I. about—that somebody was trying to steal my identity!” ha, ha.
You’re just never the same when your own good friend thinks you’re just being a little “paranoid” about things—and that you should just get over it all. Well, this friend had committed her father (who had schizophrenia) so to her, I was just “mentally unbalanced.”
That was the worst day of my life.
Anyway, your posts about your own experiences of people thinking you were delusional really ring true with me! Ring, ring, ring!!!!
bravo…let the healing begin…. I finally feel understood….
Well, cowpoke, you can jist call me ‘Wishbone’ from that old cowboy show where they sit around the fire and chew the fat.
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 10:56pm
silvermoon says:
I would guess leo that you have a venus in leo in your chart making your grand idea of romance something that you need to suffer for and fight for. For your valiant effort for the underdog and tryig to love someone you didn’t.
I am sorry for your story. It sounds like a tough one.
All of these stories are hard. And it comes way later that there is anything to laugh about.
My story as weird as any but shorter, (thank God) than most.
He is a guest now of Uncle Sam’s God Love him and keep him but lie no more to me…..I guess bigamy is considered a pretty foul insult and the good news is I think there was only one other lawfully wedded but we don’t know for sure. There is no central database so some poor woman may be out there thinking he is hers committed and committed to care for.
I wonder how long until she shows up here. I’d be the first to reach out. He was convincing. Charming. Romantic. A wonderful lover and a fantastic liar.
All good I guess until the boys with m16’s showed up. Wished I’d decided to put on my jeans instead of wandering out of bed into the kitchen that morning for coffee- but HEY! Who was expecting company?
We’d only been married six weeks!
Gotta love the good guys!
I like to say that its probrably true that after 15 years with a N and all the physical and psychological destruction that was about, after listening to years of I love me, when the psychopath came along and said I love you, I went down like a brick.
Sigh.
But down the road a bit from it all, it turns out all that matters is letting go. And sooner is better in order not to carry around a burden. Its work, but its worth it.
Cry when you have to but moreover look for that balance of peace and understanding that lets you move forward. You’ll find pointers and advice here and a supportive community.
Hang tough. You’ve been on a rough road. It does smooth out. It does.
We’ll be right here.
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 11:06pm
frontporchtalker says:
WOW How did you know I have Venus in Leo? in fact, all my planets are in Leo and virgo. Not a good sign…
I will read your post now and comment after I’ve rested.
5 planets in Leo is pathetic..
I was just reading Donna’s “profile” section about sociopaths boasting about all their knowledge: philosophy, psychology..etc. but it’s superficial knowledge they have.
Also: I turned to those subjects because I had to intellectually understand WHY, but of course there was NO rhyme or reason….
I promise to write more about your great post later.
frontporchtalker
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 11:44pm
shabbychic says:
FPT, Your profile of the perfect victim fits me to a “T”.
We were walking around with a big bullseye on our foreheads!
I was involved with a narcissist for 14 years who was funny,
a real hoot, and at the time I thought he was
a real blast to be around, now I realize everything we did
was for him + he had a lot of family, I miss them.
Anyway, the red flags, easy to ignore then, not so easy now.
Especially easy to ignore when your mom was not there to
teach you, in fact you probably learned that bad behavior
was something you had to live with.
I love Adirondak chairs, wish we were all on a big porch
talking together, sipping our tea! That would be so cool.
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Tuesday, 15 June 2010 @ 11:54pm
Uncle Peter says:
Hello, this is the first time I have posted on here although I have spent a lot of time just looking. I guess it’s the topic that attracted me as I was married to two seperate psychopaths. Slow learner.
Anyway, the problem I have had for years is the stigma of being the victim. The police attitude, at least from males, is “Can’t you control your woman?” I am not joking, I have had that said to me. Female officers sem to have a lot more empathy, but that is probably due to being women and knowing what it feels like.
It has been my experience that the police will use every trick in the book to get out of dealing with something like this. I know of one case where the husband kept a log book and pictures etc. of what his “dearly beloved” was doing. The police tried to accuse the husband with being a stalker. If it weren’t for a very good lawyer the poor guy would have ended up in jail.
The other issue I have is that there are many safe homes for women and their children and Lord knows we need them. Try to look up a safe home for men. Not a chance. After having a knife stuck in your back while your asleep makes a safe home look like a great idea.
Anyway, as you can see I am quite angry about the whole mess and I do not want to “dump” on people here. Thanks for reading and allowing me a chance to vent.
BTW People may wonder how to get rid of stalking nut bars. Real easy and I’m serious. Tell them you just figured out your gay. Women are appalled they are losing their “man” to another man. Unfortunately that doesn’t work for women with a male psychopath. The male would want to watch you have sex with another woman.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 12:27am
frontporchtalker says:
perfect, but make that either sweet tea or espresso (double) for me!
I’ll respond more later.
who loves Adirondak chairs—I do, I do!
In one of the “scientific” articles it discusses the odd language that sociopaths use. They say “conscious” when they mean “conscientious,” etc.
They have a superficial understanding of many things, but no understanding beyond what they’ve heard on Dr. Phil, or on Oprah.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 12:33am
blueskies says:
Hi FPT:) Thanks for sharing your story. I know how stressful it can be to try and unravel things enough to explain!
with regards to acronyms, I think these are the most common:
N = Narcissist
P = Psychopath
SP = Sociopath
DIL = Daughter-in-Law
ED = ‘Egg Doner’ ( a toxic mother)
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 1:00am
blueskies says:
(Les Misérables – sorry! I couldn’t resist! I am sleep deprived!;)x
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 1:02am
blueskies says:
Uncle Peter – I am sorry you have to be here. I hope it will help though.x
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 1:06am
silvermoon says:
Les Mis- the BEST!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuffHRacZMQ
Lets see what the morrow brings us all!
Vive la liberte from disorder!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 1:14am
OxDrover says:
Dear Talker,
Well, I thought ErinB and I were the BIGGEST smart mouths on the blog, but I think you might be gonna run us a race! Glad you are here, and glad you feel comfortable in this company!
I’ve never been in any al-anon or AA meethings except as a professional visitor in in-patient settings, but I have sure met some psychopaths that used “recovery” as a COVER for their abuse of others. They seem to use the “recovery” llike others use “church” where everyone has to “forgive” you when you “sin.” Where is the PUKE emoticon when you need one.
I’m sure you’ve heard the term “dry drunk”—my egg donor’s brother, I call him Uncle MONSTER, was a really miserable and violent drunk and the strain goes back to the early 1800s and who knows how much before THAT! The women all being enablers, the men abusers.
Anyway, glad you are here, but sorry you have a “need to be” or is it a “right to be?” Anyway, again, Welcome!
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 5:12am
OxDrover says:
Dear Uncle Peter,
Welcome to LF and glad you found us. This is an equal opportunity place to heal. I agree with you about the “safe house” bit too, and the stuff I am hearing now is that even women, if they don’t have children, are having hard times getting into shelters now because of the economy. Also with the economy what it is, finding a job before your “alloted time” runs out is another hurdle.
I have a son, who is in prison,, but he has stalked me from there (sending his friends) and I am learning about how to “hide in plain sight”—I bought some information a couple of years ago from a private investigator, and in the meantime hid out in an RV until the Trojan HOrse Psychopath my P-son had sent went to prison for trying to kill one of my other sons.
I’ve also been working on learning the ropes of how to NOT leave a paper or internet trail to where ever I have to go to the next time I have to run. I’m no longer living in TERROR but do live VERY cautiously.
I’m also finding out that I’ve done a LOT of things wrong, and that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of information easily and freely and no cost available on the internet about me, who I am associated with, and ya da ya da. I Can’t undo that information spill any more than BP can suck up all the oil out there, but hopefully I can CAP IT so that no more stuff gets out there.
One of the things I did find was that hiding in PLAIN SIGHT is easier than I thought, as you are not hiding from the FBI but just from nosey neighbors, so hide where there are others coming and going on a regular basis so you don’t incite curiosity by your very presence. I bought an RV and parked it next to a lake on a friend’s land. NO utilities in my name, scabbed on to his. My son didn’t know this man so would have no way to connnect my name to him.
Also, there are 100 other things you can do to protect your NAME being associated with your actual LOCATION. There are some good books out there, good internet sites and some not so good. I just finished a couple recently and wijll be doing a book review on them before long.
BE PREPARED if you are being stalked is the best advice I can give anyone. Have a “grab and go” bag with cash, papers, etc. or whatever you might need if you have to leave and NOT come back for (how long?)
Anyway, sorry you have to feel at home here Peter, but since you do “qualify” for our club, it’s a good one! Hang around. God bless.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 5:23am
Psyche says:
Dear Uncle Peter,
It’s true, female psychopaths present a lot of challenges that men, in general, are not capable of dealing with (including policemen).
I deal with one at my workplace. All the men LOVE her, because she love bombs them, non stop, and speaks with confidence, praise, certainty, authority etc etc. Meanwhile, I get all the knives in my back, because she perceives me as a threat to the attention she wants, and the men are too witless to get how a female spath operates.
That said, I think men have it in them to want to protect women on some level, so that even if a cop doesn’t get that a woman’s married to a sociopath, a male cop will still often seem more willing to deal with it on *some* level, as opposed to no level at all, even if they just think half of her concerns are just based on the imaginings of her ‘pretty, neurotic, paranoid little head’. And here I’m generalizing, knowing full well that there are exceptions to this – just speaking from my experience, and on the basis of what a policeman/friend of mine tells me about his job. I do see that male victims of female spaths have a not-so-great set of circumstances to deal with if they do seek protection from civic authorities.
not sure I got this right, did you mean that you told your ex female spath that you were gay, and it got her to stop trying to abuse you? that sounds great!
Psyche
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 10:47am
Twice Betrayed says:
My younger daughter is really showing P behavior. I need some help on this, please. My daughter is involved with a rock band [while her husband is away working] and she is dragging my 3 year old GD to these drunken concerts and bars. Keeping her up while she’s sick and hanging in front of the stage with the music blaring in her little ears. I had a major war with her last night over this. I had to turn my little GD over to my daughter at a bar!!!!! I had kept her and she made me bring her to her thinking she was going home and instead she takes her into the bar with her crying for me. The dad is a wuss and most likely will do nothing. Does anyone have any help for me? Thanks!
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 12:47pm
bluejay says:
Twice Betrayed,
I dont’ no how to advise. If I were in your shoes, it would be heartwrenching to walk away from the child, knowing that’s not an appropriate place for your granddaughter. When I read your post, I thought, thank God she has this woman as a grandmother. I would want to raise hell with the daughter (but we know she’s not listening), like you did. Could you have refused to hand her over? Possibly, even if the father is a wuss, I would tell him what occurred (making it plain how upset your were by the situation) and hopefully, he will act on behalf of his daughter’s well-being.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 1:11pm
OxDrover says:
Call child services—it might make things worse though, you know the routine! I’m so sorry this carp is happening to you, TB. ((((hugs)))))
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 1:48pm
silvermoon says:
Twice,
Why don’t you just offer to take the child full time and let the daughter do her thing and visit when she can. A P would probrbably jump all over that arrangement- she gets to go do what she feels like she needs to.
And after a period of doing your homework, you can probrably make the arrangement legal with or without her cooperation….
The answer to taking a sick three year old to a bar is NO.
The answer is the child can stay here tonight and you can come tomorrow.
Its easier for everyone that way. No harm, no foul.
You’d better have a sit down with the wuss and I would advise in the prescence of a therapist.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 2:31pm
Rosa says:
Twice Betrayed:
It’s futile to get into a major war with a psychopathic mother over the welfare of the grandchild, because psychopaths don’t care about the welfare of their children.
One thing I’ve learned from my own family situation is that when you are dealing with a psychopathic mother, you have to make it all about HER, not the child.
I know, this goes against human nature, and it takes a lot of self-discipline.
Because, our first instinct is to always put the welfare of the child above everything else.
But, psychopathic mothers are ultra-selfish, and if she knows it makes you crazy that your granddaughter is in the bars, she will continue doing it.
If I were in your position, I would tell the daughter that she needs some time to herself, and you would be happy to watch granddaugher for the night (or weekend) while Mommy “goes out and has some fun for a change”.
Tell the daughter that she works too hard and deserves a break, even if it is NOT TRUE.
Who cares?!?!?
Hell, give her some $$ to go have a facial and pedicure….whatever it takes!!!!
Keep your daughter busy doing what she wants, so you can keep the granddaughter with you.
Is this enabling??? YES, OF COURSE IT IS, BUT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE A CHILD’S LIFE HERE!!
Sometimes we have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.
The good news is the child is NOT going to be 3 years old forever.
Your goal is to have the granddaughter with YOU as much as possible during these critical years, and not in the bars.
This is going to require a little sociopath-ness on your part Twice Betrayed, only you are doing it in the name of GOOD, not evil.
My advice is to get creative, and make this work for you.
That’s what my Mom and I are doing with my little niece.
I saw my niece 3 times this week.
It’s not going to work everytime.
But, sometimes it does….and it definitely never hurts to try.
Good Luck to you, Twice Betrayed.
I can definitely relate to your pain and frustration.
P.S. How often does Child Services take a child away from its biological mother???
Almost never.
The poor child would have to be practically dead for that to happen.
I’m not trying to be negative.
That’s just a cold fact of life, and the way our system “works”.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 3:37pm
Psyche says:
Twice Betrayed,
If your daughter is a P, your daughter will do one thing: whatever she wants.
You can get her to want to do what you want if you play your cards right. And I do think it will take some ‘mind games’ to do it, but if you’re telling the truth when you ‘play’ them, you’ll have solid ground to stand on.
Most likely she already thinks of her daughter as a burden, and just puts on a show of caring about her whenever necessary. And she’ll always find ways to rationalize why she doesn’t really need to take care of her daughter properly. Just HELP her do all of that rationalizing, and get the child to safer hands in the process. Feed her self-serving logic, because that’s what she’s all about.
To feed your daughter’s fundamental selfishness for potentially good results, you can talk about things that will appeal to her like : how hard it is to have a little one on your hands as a young woman. How can she ever feel ‘free’ again, it must feel like such a burden, no? Doesn’t she want to go out without having to deal with anything but having fun? – it’s her right to have fun, after all!! Tell her she ought to do what everyone else does, use a babysitter. And if she has no money for one … well, that’s where you can come in
The truth that you’re catering to is the one about what she really wants, which is to do whatever she wants, however she wants. The truth that you’re conveniently omitting is that you think your daughter has no business doing what she’s doing (taking her GD out like that). Telling that truth will only make matters worse for your GD, becuase that will just turn your GD into a pawn in a power-struggle between you and your daughter.
Not sure such specific tactics will work in your case, but you get the idea.
Basically – just
give her the excuses she needs to drop the responsibility that she doesn’t want anyway, and don’t let her know you care about your GD’s welfare!! You can omit that part without being dishonest. Definitely don’t let her know what you really care about. It’s only safe to share that kind of info. with people who can respect it.
All of this would translate into you needing to take a lot more care of your GD in the process, which sounds like it would be for the best if you possibly can do it. I haven’t seen all of your previous posts, am just hoping you’d have the ability to step in as often as possible.
But you seem to have shown your cards, and your daughter knows that you’re upset by her behavior. You’ll have to find a way to get her off her guard now. Play dumb for a while, and your daughter may slip back into her self-obsessed sociopathic fog. The sad truth is that if she knows something upsets you, she’ll just do it more. Don’t let her know what you feel.
Psyche
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 4:34pm
Psyche says:
just thought of something else Twice
You may be better able to get your daughter to want to get a babysitter (hopefully you) if you find your daughter’s trigger/shame-buttons:
Depending on where your daughter feels most vulnerable, it may help to mention things like:
-everyone else at the bars seem to have a babysitter (if jealousy is a powerful motivator for her).
-everyone at the bar must wonder why she can’t afford a babysitter (if she likes people to think that she’s financially stable).
Whatever you say, say it casually and drop it, like it’s not an important thought to you, generally. If you can find a way to be indirect, so much the better. If you can sandwich the comments into another discussion, even better. But design the comment so that you strike where you’re most likely to get the reaction you want, which is for her to want to not bring that poor child out with her the way she does. Take dead aim on her primary vulnerability, whatever it might be (jealousy, status, etc.).
Hope that helps, I’ve never been good at doing stuff like that, but I’ve seen others use it with success.
Psyche
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 5:04pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Thanks for all your help! However, I’ve tried all of that. I cannot get my daughter to allow me to keep the baby more than a few hours no matter how much I suck up to her. I’ve offered her everything I know…care, vacation, bribes [she has her husband so browbeaten he can't/ won't stand up to her]. I’ve offered to just keep the kid while she parties. Made it like a vacation for her etc…no go. She sees this child as a power play over all of her family and she loves every minute of it. She won’t even so much as put ear plugs in this baby’s ears while she is hanging out with her in front of a band acting like some groupie whore in front of all those loud speakers! I try to give her earplugs and she threw them on the floor. Finally security forced her to put plugs in the baby’s ears. This daughter of mine is insane! I’ve tried every ploy I know short of contacting child services, which is NOT going to be better or even work for that matter. My daughter keeps a good home, fully stocked fridge, toys galore etc….but thinks taking this baby to concerts and open bars is ok, and hanging with other men while her husband is away. I am panicked for this child’s safety.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 6:07pm
Psyche says:
I think the tactics might have worked if she didn’t know how much of a struggle you’re willing to be involved in, to get her to do the right thing. I think if she thought you didn’t care about the GD, she wouldn’t care to do all that she’s doing. So she’s on to your true feelings and concerns, which means trouble (she’ll just enjoy messing with them to the extent that she can).
The tricks could have worked if she didn’t know what you really wanted. But she wants to make sure you don’t have what you want.
I’m sorry, I’m not sure what to do once this happens. Now you can see that your GD is just a pawn in the power play, which is all meant to drive you nuts, or worse. I don’t know what to do with that, but will think about it, and keep you and your GD in my prayers in the meantime.
I can see why you’re panicked, it does not look at all good. I picture your poor little GDs ears, and her cries, and what it means to have a mother that does not love you, and it breaks my heart. I’ll keep thinking . . . .
Psyche
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 6:21pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Psyche: I appreciate your prayers!!!!
Yeah, my daughter is evil just like her father!!!! Bad wicked. And what is so sad is, she was sweet just like her daughter when she was little. I do feel my daughter loves to drive people, especially me, nuts and as you say, worse.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 7:05pm
Twice Betrayed says:
When my older daughter tried to reason with my daughter last night this is what my daughter wrote to me today when I asked to keep the GD. Quote:” I can’t turn my child over to insanity. Willingly or unwillingly. Keep the clawing bitch out of my face and you can still visit GD. Bring more drama in my life- ya gotta leave. It’s that easy.”
See how the GD is a power play for her? And I must accept my daughter’s terms or the GD is jerked away from me.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 7:09pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oh boy, after rereading this, I fear now, that pushing my daughter to try and take this GD from her might result in her going full blown psychotic……and that leaves me wondering what she might do. And possibly she is enjoying cruelly toying with my mind/emotions in this area as well. Wicked beyond!
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 7:15pm
OxDrover says:
Dear TB,
Darling, there is NO limit to what they will do to punish us for not giving them supply. They will use their own children as weapons to beat us with. Before I had ever heard the word psychopath I saw families usiing children as baseball bats to go at each other like rabid Hell’s Angels. Not caring how the children were splintered and broken.
As difficult as it is to DO, some how you have to take a note out of Rosa’s play book if you want to be in contact with the GD.
If there is anything/one that you care about and THEY CONTROL your access to it, you can bet your bottom dollar they will use it as both a carrot and a stick to get you to do what they want you to. The ONLY defense you really have is to decide what you will “endure” in exchange for contact with that person or thing. Sometimes the price gets too high.
My egg donor used to hold out her approval as a bait for me, then her disapproval as a stick to punish me, but it finally got to the point that I couldn’t pay the PRICE any more. It is I guess like teasing a dog with a bone, eventually even a dog will realize that they are not going to ever actually give it to you so you quit wanting or expecting to get it and quit reaching for it.
When it comes to a child that you love, I think that is the most PAINFUL thing someone could do to you AND the child. Creampuff is in that situation with her Grandkids because of her own P dtr and step dtr, and passive aggressive husband.
I know she is starting to come to grips with it, and then there are all these young women with babies and x-husband Ps and the problems they have for decades. To say nothing of those of us like you, me, Gem, Creampuff, etc etc who have adult children that have already broken our hearts and continue to try to (or worse)—-sometimes it is chokingly awful to even imagine how much pain these excuses for humans can inflict on others without a single backward glance.
About all any of us can do I think is to keep on praying for each other and hang in there. I don’t know how I would have sorted half this carp out without you guys there. You might not have been able to tell me what to do to “fix” something, but I sure knew you knew how I felt! ((((hugs)))) and prayers for us all.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 8:05pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Hi Oxy,
Thanks for responding! I have tried every avenue I know with this daughter right down to just saying, “Go have some fun and party, but let me play with my GD…it’s like having you little again and I enjoy it.” No go. She does not intend on ever letting me keep her much. And….believe it or not, she told my older daughter why. Because she will never risk that GD loving me more than her. I asked to just allow my GD to come here and stay with me for awhile and nope. She calculatingly replied, I could “visit” with my GD. See how clever and aware she is and how she loves to cause trouble. She feeds on it. One thing that worries me is, I have had so much stress that my health is poor now. I don’t feel well most of the time due to all the stress related trauma and I don’t know what to do about that either, since it never lets up. I divorced the PX but cannot divorce my children. I am exhausted. Also, she enjoys playing on married men and breaking up their homes.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 8:36pm
Twice Betrayed says:
PS….thanks for all the hugs and prayers! I am so grateful to have this place and you all! Please pray for my GD! Thank you!
Love,
TB
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 8:38pm
Hopeforjoy says:
Dear Twice Betrayed,
I’m so sorry to hear about the situation with your daughter. She does not seem to have a conscience in how she treats you and her own daughter. There is something wrong with people who wish to hurt you deliberately. All of us hurt people in our lives by saying something insensitive, etc. but what your daughter is doing is malicious and wrong.
The way you are feeling right now has taken it’s toll on your health and well being, you need to make sure you care for yourself first. That way you are better able to care for GD. Unfortuately it comes down to what is in your control and what is out of your control. Do you want to play her game to be able to have some influence in your precious grand daughters life? Having a stable, loving grand mother will help your GD see how a healthy person behaves. Someone who loves her unconditionally will help fend off the possiblity of her becoming a disordered adult. You might have to play the game and let her think she is winning. That way you are able to still see GD and be a positive part of her life.
It breaks my heart that your GD could be used as a pawn in some sick game of control and manipulation. What is with these people? I never knew there were so many hurtful, evil people in the world.
Psyche and Oxy had some good advice, I hope the situation changes soon with your GD. Social services may have to be called eventually.
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 8:58pm
geminigirl says:
Dearest TB, Yes, they really know how to put the boot in, and torture us with their own kids. Really, all you can do is to pray lik mad for that dear little girl. Ask the Lord to put a hedge of protection around her, and do this every day.Ask that she be shielded from emotional, mental and physical harm, from the top of her head to the soles of her feet. Ask that her 5 senses be protected. Ask the healing Angels, from the heirarchies of Raphael, Michael,& Zadkiel protect her, day and night. {Raphael, is the Archangel of healing, Michael is the warrior Angel.}If you do this every day, no harm can come to her.
Blessings and Love, Mama GemXX
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Wednesday, 16 June 2010 @ 9:02pm
frontporchtalker says:
I have read all your comments and stories. I know I will have much more to say, later on. Right now, it drains me to simply tell my own story.
Please forgive me..
So, As the Sociopath turns’ continues now, like the bad soap opera that it is!
PART 2: My life with a sociopath: “MP”
As I said in my other Part 2 (which should have been Part 1),
Like my alcoholic mother, MP could be very funny. But later on, as I got to know her, she could be very abusive, as well.
They both had addiction problems, although unlike my mother MP had professed to be “in recovery.” They both had had numerous bad marriages, affairs, etc.
Years later, I thought MP might have Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). But, she was much too cunning and calculating for that, unlike my mother who was mostly a “victim” of the men in her life.
My mother had been a black-out drunk for many years, the last five of her life, she’d been completely on a “liquid” diet.
MP went with me to see my mother in her last days–
One night, she disappeared in the middle-of the-night—which she would do more and more of as the years went by. I was frantic. When she showed-up at my beach motel the next morning she simply told me that she’d “gotten lost.”
She was explosive, just as my mother was, during a black-out. I was terrified of MP’S rages in the same way too. Something seemingly small would send her into a red-hot tantrum.
I know now that MP was a bona fide sociopath/psychopath—maybe you’ll agree as the story escalates.
Then, she would abandon me, break-up, leave, take the credit cards (mine), have an affair.
The Gas lighting would begin, although I didn’t know that term back then. It’s where that person convinces you that it is you who is crazy and unreasonable, for some small mistake or doubt you had.
She both had me “hooked” and was jealous, on the one hand. (She hated a friend of mine, “MO”). On the other hand, she abandoned me, suddenly, without warning, leaving me without resources, blaming me.
I’d have a panic-attack, hyperventilating and sobbing, and PTSD—horrible episodes. But MP would coldly walk away as if she had never known me.
That was also like my mother, of course. During my teen days, I ran away from home, from 13- and for the final time at 16. I finished high-school with the help of my boyfreind’s family. I sent myself to college and Grad School, on my own.
My mother would have black-out rages and throw me out in the middle of a snowy winter night in the same way Mp did, without caring if I had a coat or gloves, or money to survive on.
The trip to visit my dying mother became a nightmare for me. Not only did I have to “choose” who would go down with me—Mp or Mo—(they wouldn’t go if the other one did), my mother was also dying!
was disappearing for hours at a time (and a night)—explaining it away as having a new Diagnosis: Narcolepsy! Later on, I’ll explain why that didn’t seem crazy to me at the time. Plus, I was terrified of her rages, which she never apologized for or explained to me.
My mother finally died. I was relieved, frankly, and sad too. I had terrible unresolved feelings about my mother, of course. It’s terrible when you love somebody who also has abused you. And worse, that person was your own mother.
MP and I returned to my town. (This was before she moved 300 miles back to the town she’d grown up in, where I eventually bought a house.)
MP was a character out of a Bette Davis movie. Around others, she was charming and well-spoken. But mostly, she slept and slept and slept. As I mentioned, she was on disability for several undefinable and other unexplained illnesses. She had chronic illnesses, which her family doubted. Of course, her family were all crazy addicts too, so it was hard to tell.
She “had” to take morphine, oxycontin, etc. all of which her doctors had prescribed to her. Who was I to doubt her doctors? This woman supposedly couldn’t move out of bed without med’s.
Being the codependent that I was, I covered Mp’s health insurance, so we had the same doctor. (in the end, she had the doctor convinced that I was the one who’d abused med’s!)
Of course, several of Mp’s doctors had lost their medical licenses for being too liberal with med’s. I will end this part with our last days in my city, before she moved back to her own hometown, 300 miles away (and I followed).
This whole story, as you will see, is one of betrayals and lack of integrity in every corner of my life. I was the only one I knew, save some close friends, who seemed to stand up for what was moral and right, and who would help a friend, for instance, if they were nearly homeless, like MP was. But, I digress.
I had no way out!
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 1:04am
frontporchtalker says:
p.s. I have been plagued since yesterday when was making fun of a man who called it “LA MISERABLE!”
But I, in my haste to be funny and clever, also misspelled it. ha, ha!
Your post was hilarious about this!
And for today, my fellow smarty-pants, I shall leave you with this soothing message, in latin, of course:
“NIL DESPERATUM!” (NO WORRIES!)
Wow! Just WHERE does the time go? Time flies when
you’re tres’ MISERABLE! HA, AH.(stupid smiley face goes here!)
“Nil
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 1:18am
shabbychic says:
FPT, that is quite a story. Sounds like Michelle treated you exactly the same way your mother did. Very sad. How are you feeling now? Maybe I shouldn’t ask that, I’ll just have to wait for the rest of the story!
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 1:48am
frontporchtalker says:
Bless your little heart for taking the time to listen to my rambling story.
I’ve just read all the comments and posts. I am truly impressed by y’all!
I don’t usually comment on others’ stories–just habit I guess– unless they ask for it. But I do read everything here.
I hereby give all of y’all permission to comment, ask questions, or call me on my s…t.! I don’t mind as long as it’s constructive.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 1:53am
frontporchtalker says:
there should be no doubt, at least in my own case, that the codependent is nearly as crazy as the sociopath. We keep doing more and more, just to deny reality more and more, …
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 3:30am
blueskies says:
HI TB, your story makes my insides twist into a knot. BIG LOVES to you.xxxx Psyche, Oxy, and Rosa have great advice. My initial response was similar to Rosa in thinking that in order to be involved you will have to make it all about her, not your GD:(
I am in a situation with my Daughter that is different in that it’s the ED GM who is ‘using’ MY child as supply, as a tool to hurt me, and doing all she can to turn her into a greedy co-dependant baby its driving me nuts at the moment . The utter helplessness. The not wanting to ‘let go’.
{Edit – I REALLY have to address how I think and feel about all this, how I feel about daughter… I dont like what I called her up there… thinks.thinks.thinks.}
As long as I try to battle it, it’s GAME ON. I’m back in the drama triangle. AND I think ADDING to the ‘use’ of daughter as a tug of war rope.:(:(
If I step away, her interest in daughter wanes… and daughter is left unsupported and ‘at risk’ in a situation beyond her ‘means’… step back in GAME ON. Rinse and repeat…:(
This is her MO. As kids, she neglected and abused me and my sisters but if anyone showed us affection or we bonded with anyone ‘outside’ of her we’d be yanked away and the person would be trashed to kingdom come
Also I remember many times we were left in cars over night with duvets outside pubs she was gigging at with her ‘band’ – she was in her 30’s! If you cant find a baby-sitter you dont go! Simple! Of course this wont be ‘remembered’ by her.
I dont know what to do for the best either. Or how to cope with my emotions about it.:(x
At least my daughter is old enough to come to me if she needs to (which she does, with worries, personal issues – and I am gratful that I can still be ‘mum’ for those things… but ED is the big CRAZY elephant in the room) and I will always be here:(
I get a lot of comfort in the posts above that talk of even if we cant ‘fix’ the situation, we can focus on channelling positive ‘protective thoughts’ towards the loved one… I find that a really helpful idea and good medicine for not falling in a heap on the floor.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 5:40am
Frank Lee Speaking says:
Now here’s a thing.
The female sociopath I was conned by HAD NO PHOTOS OF HER IN HER 20’s or TEENs.
No matter how many times I said I would like have seen photos of her before she met me the answer was always. I have none left. Tore them up. The only photo she had was of a baby and it was all part of the “little girl” thingy they play with you.
Has this happened anyone else. That the female(or male) sociopath had no history of themselves before you met them in terms of photos and videos?
Why is this?
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 7:29am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Karla Holmolka is seeking a pardon. Cdn. politicians step up.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cap.....lka_pardon
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 8:02am
one_step_at_a_time says:
frank lee – my take on your situation is – a) she’s lying/ hiding something (ie her real life isn’t the same as her made up life); b) she doesn’t care about anything and pictures are just part of not having emotional attachment to anything (and the pics serve no purpose in how she cons people – so they are of no use to her); c) someone angry with her destroyed them.
mine used other people’s photos to be her whole fake family. a dozen different people’s photos she stole on the internet to rep her closest family. oh, and the cat. (watch out there spatho, i know the cat’s REAL name.)
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 8:08am
Wini says:
Frank Lee, My Ex Spath left all his family portraits, videos old slides, scrap books behind. They are in my home as I write. I even have his parents portrait (both deceased now). I contacted his ex-wife’s attorney and told him to inform her that she and/or the children (both adults now) can come by any time and pick the family memorabilia up. To this date … NO takers.
I figure, I’ll just store them for the future if he ever gets picked up (God willing) and spends time in prison. Then I’ll forward him all that he left behind since he was too busy stealing all my possessions.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 9:07am
OxDrover says:
Frank lee speaking, “She” may have been a guy in her 20s. The University hospital medicalo school I trained in did several of these operations on fairly young guys and believe me, you could NOT tell unless you knew. Or, there may have been some other reason there were no photos, like she was in prison. The only photos I have of my P son outside prison is one when he was on parole for a couple of months, all the rest are in the prison visiting room with him in prison clothes.
I can think of several reasons there may have been no photos of her.
Twice Betrayed,
You made some comments about your health not being all that great now due to stress past and present. OK, I can DEFINITELY RELATE!
You made another statement though, “I cannot divorce my kids” NOW WITH THIS ONE, I DISAGREE. I divorced them and over all my health is improving! I feel better, and I’m taking care of myself.
When you have had your stress for a long timem and the LEVEL OF HORMONES IS ALWAYS HIGH, it takes time for them to readjust and come back down. It doesn’t get bad in a day and it doesn’t get frixed in a day. It is almost like being drunk all the time, your body gets used to it. So, anyway, you sort of have to make a conscious effort stop the upheavals that go on that cause you to be pithed off, mad, upset, stressed out, feel pressure, “I should’s” and all that OVER THINGS YOU CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT.
OK, you know what your daughter’s PURPOSE IS. 1) to NOT let your GD get to know you enough to really love you 2) to dangle the child in front of your nose, KNOWING YOU WANT time with the girl, and relishing you KNOWING YOU CAN’T HAVE IT.
I would say those asre more than enough grounds for you to DIVBORCE that witch, she3 is GETTING OFF ON GIVING YOU STRESS, KEEPING THE CHILD AND YOU UPSET —so you only have two choices 1) keep on like it is and you and the child suffer AND she gets off on doing it to the both of you OR 2) Tell her that as lolng as that is her attitude, you will not play her game. NC Tell her that since you won’t be able to see your GD that you will start a little savings account for her and put money in there for when she is 18. Then sTart a box of Cards and each birthday, holiday etc. write a sweet card and put in the box along with a charm b racelet and a charm. Then open a little savings account for her and one day you can give them to her and she will realize that HER MOTHER kept her away from you.
I know it sucks, TB, but that is what that witch of a daughter of yours is TRYING TO DO! What she WANTs to do. It hurts to divorce them, but not doing is is like still being married to the P. ((((Hugs))))))
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 9:39am
Psyche says:
Hi Twice,
I gave your situation some thought last night, and am thinking that you might want to try the cupcake trick. If you decide that you need to stay in the relationship with your daughter, for your GD’s sake (and I can see why Ox recommends not doing so in the post just above this one), you could try to use the cupcake trick. I use it on my female Spath at work.. I’d love to ‘divorce’ that witch, but I’m not stable enough to leave my current job.
If what you see is right: “my daughter is evil just like her father!!!! Bad wicked. And what is so sad is, she was sweet just like her daughter when she was little. I do feel my daughter loves to drive people, especially me, nuts and as you say, worse.” — then you can use that truth.
Here’s how my female colleague at work plays. There might be something I really want, maybe to be included on some committee or other, whatever — let’s just use a chocolate covered chocolate cupcake for an example. Imagine it’s sitting on the table in our lunchroom. It will sit there for a thousand years if the Spath doesn’t realize someone likes it and wants it. BUT, if the Spath realizes that I want it, she’ll swoop in, grab it and try to torment me by holding it out in front of me, trying to make me grab for it, and pull it away just before I can get my hands on it. You get the idea. She may even offer pieces of it to other people while I sit there and watch her do it. And then she’ll smile at me. Infantile biotch, but you get the idea.
Right now, your daughter has turned your GD into that chocolate cupcake. I am not sure that this is a suggestion that you should take, but I’m going to put it out there, just in case. You can try to get your daughter to believe that you’ve just given up on trying to deal with the issue of her taking your GD out with her, to have her little ears blasted out. Just pretend to be so very tired of the arguments, and LAUGH it off somehow. You’ve got to get her off the idea that she can use your GD like a cupcake to hurt you. I KNOW, this goes against normal good judgment, to pretend like you don’t care when you do. And your daughter will probably try to test you, by continuing with the behavior, to see if it can get a rise out of you. Do not let her know that you care anymore. The ugly fact is, she’ll prob. keep up with the behavior for a while anyway, whether you get upset about it or not. My suggestion may be too late to really work, because she already knows you care — but you can still try to shift her focus, by putting a different cupcake of your choice out on the table, to see what happens. Pick a flavor of cupcake that you don’t really like – that would be a strawberry cupcake for me. Put the strawberry cupcake on the table, and talk about how everyone just loves strawberry cupcakes, or whatever. You get the idea. Your daughter may try to torment you with that one instead, if she gets enough of a rise out of you when she tries.
In other words, allow her to believe that you may feel anxiety, fear, desire about the strawberry cupcake, and your daughter may swoop in to try to torture you with that instead. Remember that they think we care about all the stupid things that they care about (anything to do with status, power, control). Use that knowledge when you choose a new cupcake. Pick something you don’t care about that she’ll just *imagine* you care about. Let your daughter imagine that your greatest fear is that she may try to take that thing/strawberry cupcake away. If she’s busy trying to torment you with the new cupcake, she may not have as much fun trying to torment you by taking your GD out like she’s 18 years old, especially if she’s not getting a rise out of you about the latter. If you’re not a good actress, as I’m not, just be sure to give her a few signs that at least suggest that she may really be getting to you, when she tries to torment you with the new cupcake. It might intrigue her enough to get her going.
If stupid cupcake games aren’t your style (and before anyone says it, I agree that they ARE stupid and possibly dangerous, and I don’t like them one bit, except for the fact that they’ve helped me navigate an impossible situation at work), calling child services might be okay, if you could somehow document your daughter’s harmful behavior, but dealing with them could turn into a huge can of worms. It’s hard to know. Waiting 18 years could be for the best, because your GD will have realized by then that there’s something sick in her mother, and you could be the best and most appreciated grandma to her when the time comes. But 18 years is a long time, and there’s no telling exactly what the costs of waiting that long will be.
I had to be away from my younger sister for 15 years because of our Spath-packed family (long story). She is not an Spath, and was the absolute apple of my eye while we lived in the same house. But we actually can’t relate with each other now, even though we share common troubles. 15 years did a lot of damage that has made the relating almost impossible now. She’s in her 20s now, has become completely histrionic as a reaction to all of the abuse, and all I can do is stand by, watch her destroy her youth, sleep with junkies, and hope that she outgrows the behaviors, like when she’s 40 and I’m almost dead. But really, in what lifetime is this supposed to get any better?!
In any case, you’re in a very bad spot. We can walk away from ex lovers and jobs and careers, but when there are kids (or grandkids) involved, dealing with the situation can be a life sentence (someone else on the site said that about a week ago, and I thought they hit the mark). The only thing I can feel pretty sure about is that your daughter will try to torment you with anything that she believes you care about. If I were you, I would never let her know what I truly care about ever again. I wish I had something better to offer, seeing as how you know these things already.
Hugs (and prayers),
Psyche
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 11:09am
Twice Betrayed says:
hope, gem, blueskies, oxy, and Psyche: Thanks so much for all your help, willingness to really dig in there for me/GD!!! You are all a Godsend to help one another this way! Just having your input, love, care and empathy gives me hope. Oxy: your point on my divorcing my daughter may be so. But, then I don’t get to see my GD at all. I am not really being allowed to make any difference in her life, I do know that. I keep thinking my daughter will get tired of torturing me with my GD and just take off with this band. But, I’ve realized something….my daughter relies on my GD for constant supply so I fear she will never let her go for long. Only if my daughter were to receive so much supply elsewhere would she ever let this child go and I don’t think this is possible, because who would ever worship you like your young child? See, my daughter jumps from man to man to man making them hero worship her. When the man finds out she’s nuts and he’s in over his head, he runs and my daughter always has the GD to feed her supply. So, it’s a vicious circle that I fear will never end until my GD is old enough to leave [that's if she makes it.....sob]. [All the while, this husband of my daughter's works and makes her a GREAT living. This man is a marine biologist and pulls in six figures. So, my daughter has money for anything she wants.]
Psyche: Thanks for your cupcake idea. I have used a similar game on my X, but my daughter is a master people reader. She can read me even better than my PX could. She’s a wicked witch hellbent on destroying everyone and everything she can. Only when she wants something does she become human and she wants very little from me, as she can get all she wants from her X and the other suckers she has spellbound in her life. I do feel sorry for the lead singer of this band….he’s run off and left his wife and children for my daughter and it will cost him dearly. Not to mention his wife/children. I mentioned that to my daughter and she reacted…..but of course, her wants overrode it.
Thanks all for your help/love and care! Hugs to you all!
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 1:44pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Psyche, I agree with you, it i s one of those damned if you do, damned if you donh’t situations and a lose/lose situation where they ahve you over a barrel and if they know you want that cup cake, they will smash it on the floor and step on it before they let you have it.
Even if that cupcake is their child, they will destroy it before allowing you to enjoy the child. Lookk at the Calley/casey Anthony case in Florida. PERFECT example. In that case the mother I think was a P and the GRANDMOTHER as well, so the mother killed her own daughter in order to piss off her mother and SHOW HER that she couldn’t control the kid. Two Ps fighting over a baby, each wanting control. MY God, what a night mare!
That Baby gabriel Johnson thing where the P mother took the baby and either killed him (she said she did) or gave him up in an illegal adoption (she said that too) just to hurt the baby’s father! And how many Ps murder the babies to get back at their X’s—or mistreat them and abuse them? Sheesh, and there is jack shidt we can do about it most of the time.
To love one of these kids and to be POWERLESS to effect any change has got to be HELL ON EARTH. To want a relationship with that child and have the parent dangle the kid just out of reach like a carrot in front of a donkey has got to be HELL ON EARTH.
Each of us has to make up our minds, but I have had to come to the conclusion for myself that I will NOT FOLLOW CARROTS of any kind, and I will not run from sticks. I’ve lunged for carrots my whole life, and I’ve dodged sticks but I just don’t have it in me any more. I can’t handle it, the stress is more than I am able to endure at this point in my life.
I love my oldest son C but you know, he lied to me, knowing I don’t tolerate lies. I don’t hate him, but I don’t “DO” lies, so he is free to go do his own life however and where ever he wants to, just I can never trust him again. Won’t even try to trust him again. Wouldn’t spit at him if I saw him in the store. Would give him a hug and say “nice to see you hope you’re doing well” and mean it. I’m sorry he lied to me, but not my fault he did, it is his. His choice. and the response to him lying is MY CHOICE. He knew that up front. He may not have “believed me” when I told him that because in the past I have been too free with “forgivenss” and “restoring trust.” But I’m NOT now, I have forgiven him, but TRUST? NOT in this life time. That also means that all the bennies that go with being my TRUSTED son (and believe me they are quite a few) are gone as well. His brother feels the same way I do. NO trust. It hurts, but we would rather be realistic about things than keep up an unreasonable expectation of trust and have it repeatedly stepped on.
B ut it’s one of those things that we have to come to for ourselves, no one else can tell us when or what to do about it. Even after I knew how toxic my egg donor was, it was so hard to even THINK about “divorcing” my egg donor. Or divorcing my P son, or my P-friends, it left me feeling pretty empty. But now I have filled up those empty spots so I realize life without the P’s influence is MUCH BETTER FOR ME!
Just getting to this point was painfujl, but I’m glad I’m here now.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 2:01pm
Twice Betrayed says:
My P daughter is firing off crazy emails to me. I can see this all is a set up to ban me from her/GD’s life because she does that to anyone that does not agree with her. She calls it ‘her world’. Even when I suck bottom and don’t go against her, she still won’t allow me to keep GD much. She’s drifted into paranoia now. Says my GD came back and said I said she had chicken pox. And that we were talking about her. Never said a word about any of that. Besides, child is only 3 years old!
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 2:34pm
Psyche says:
Hi Ox,
Yeah, I agree, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. and I have had to drop kick some people out of my life so that I could preserve what is left of my energy.
I have a hard time turning my back on the ones who aren’t actually Spaths and Ns, just messed up mistake makers. My sister falls into that category. She’s completely damaged, and quite capable of lies, but her heart is actually good. But if I stay closely involved with her, it does bring me down, way down, and it’s of NO IMMEDIATE BENEFIT. Lots of used up energy. So what to do? Humph. Hell if I know. I just hope for something better from a fairly safe distance, until I can think of a better plan.
When it comes to grandkids, and kids in the hands of the Spaths and Ns, I’m not sure I could axe all ties, even if an Spath or N were holding the strings. If I want contact with my sister and good brothers, it requires tangential contact with the Spaths in the family. So I deliberately use the unwanted contact with the rats as a way of exercising my anti-Spath muscles, in not giving them the satisfaction that they want from me, moment to moment. I use the interaction to learn how not to react to their games, and to find ways to get a few good moments in, here and there, with my siblings who are worth trying to save. But I think you and I can agree on the fact that a healthy distance is key – you and I just have different distance boundaries.
Good luck to Twice, it sounds like you’re still very much in hell. I am not sure what I would do if I were you.
xo, Psyche
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 2:38pm
MiLo says:
Dear Twice Betrayed,
I am so sorry for the situation you are in. Your daughter IS my daughter – exactly. Children are nothing but pawns in their game of life. They have no real feelings towards their children, only what they can gain by using them.
My daughter found that her son got in her way though and I was a willing babysitter. I knew the time he spent with me was literally saving his life so I was always available. Everytime she got mad at me, she threatened never to let me see him.
Try to keep your communication with her to a minimum, no matter what you say – it will be misinterpreted. I always said talking to my daughter was like sticking your head inside a blender. I might say “I like your new hair cut, it looks great on you.” She would say “You mean you never liked my hair before, you always think I look like a mess” – No winning EVER
Maybe even act like you are too busy or just not interested in your GD. This could make her number one mission to make sure she “makes” you spend time with her. Kind of like the advice Psyche gave you on the cupcake.
If it gets to where she will not let you have any contact with her, have you considered trying to obtain “grandparent visitation rights”? Some states are very good about granting these. We did that with my grandson, after my daughter tried to “sell” ($10,000) us time with him.
Again, I am so sorry and wish you the very best.
MiLo
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 3:42pm
Hopeforjoy says:
MiLo,
You seem to have your stuff together, can’t believe your daughter would charge you for visitation. Good advice about the grandparent rights, I have heard about this as well.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 3:53pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Psyche: Thank you so much!
MiLo: Thank you so much for pointing that out!!!!! I have heard of Grandparent’s rights and I will go for them, if I have to.
I am now in contact with my daughter. Have been working her like I did my PX [her dad] and think I have made some progress. I ordered my GD Kid’s pink ear muffs [protection] and sent it to their house. She responded and we are communicating. I feel she is working from the willful rebellious fog [some] and may allow me to keep my GD during some of these gigs. Once she feels she has ‘punished’ me enough I think she might allow some contact. Now, if this band sets off on a west coast tour……how to keep my GD off that tour bus. I have volunteered to keep her the whole time but my daughter hedged back and forth. I get her to communicating and then I can read between the lines and sift what she says. Will see. One step at a time with these head strong insane people. Gawd, it’s just like dealing my X. She has turned out exactly like her dad. *sigh.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 5:45pm
frontporchtalker says:
PART THREE
When I think back about the reasons why Mp victimized me—as if a Sociopath really needs a reason—but there was, in a way.
I think I’m safe using that name, considering there must be a million people named Mp in the Midwest and the south, right? I am afraid, even now, that she could find me again.
I am a little bit scared, so I will have to edit my posts a little better. I’ll call her MP.
As I discussed this with my therapist of the past ten years (I became aware of one possible reason, besides the usual reasons I mean—the money, etc.
I was never in love with Mp. I loved her as a friend, and even as family, I suppose. But, I never was in love with Mp– resented that about me and even hated me for that.
Mp was extremely controlling and abusive, as you will see later on, hopefully.
I’ve had other extremely controlling women in my life, Narcissists, from my early life, who hated me for the same reason. There was one of my best friends –I’ll call her Rp. She recently found me again, after not having talked to her for the past six years. It dawned on me: she still wanted to know if I loved her the way she’d always loved me.
Rp was an extremely controlling friend, like Mp
For most of the years I knew her, R was abusive, verbally and emotionally, so I had to cut her out of my life.
I told her that, recently, so Rp told me she had a NEW BFF now! I wished her well and on her way. All Rp could say was: “I checked on you every year, but you never cared if I lived or died!”
Rp had called yet another ex-friend of mine, whom I will call “MO” who will figure in my story about Mp. She, Mo, was/is also extremely controlling.
It seems that it took such a terrible story for me to realize my own pattern of choosing extremely controlling and abusive women in my life, even as friends.
As my therapist reminded me, I made for the perfect mate/friend, etc. for a controlling person, because I was so much in my head, being a writer and teacher, that I couldn’t be “bothered” with daily mundane life.
I am also magnanimous, being a Leo and all. Ha, ha…. It’s probably all there in my chart!
RE: Part Three: My Life with a Sociopath: Mp
The most terrible part of my story comes next. It seems I am a Leo who also has a lot in common with the cowardly Lion, in the Wizard of Oz. I am sucking on my tail and crying now, so the rest of the story will have to wait….
until I find my courage to finish this story again.
Meanwhile, please know that I am reading all of your stories, and that I am also here for you!
FPT
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 7:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dea rTB,
Well, you know the BAND might not like a sniveling, crying messy 3 year old on their tour! So it may not be UP TO your P-dtr to take her or not. That might be a thing you could work from the back door.
Oh, yea the old “you have chickenpox” thing LOL ROTFLMAO what a hoot! You know, that’s offr the charts!
The “grandparents visitation” rights is a thing in most states, as I understand it when a parent is dead and his/her parents want to see the kids and the surviving parent won’t let them.
My friend in Florida whose P son kept her GD away from her (after she had raised the kid from birth to age 8 24/7) was unable to get any legal right to visit the child though she had been the PRIMARY CAREGIVER for 8 yrs.
My friend volunteered at the GS’s school so she could have lunch with the child one day a week for several years, then finally got the birth mother to share some of her weekend time with the Grandmother. The little girl has turned out great and is 14 now and spends lots of time with her GM and has started to realize what her father and step mother are (both Ps) and that her birth mother is a DRAMA QUEEN and probably borderline personality disorder as well. This little girl is amazing and it is 100% because she has an amazing grandmother!
I count myself very fortunate that I do not have any grandchildren for a P child or P-Inilaw to keep me away from after I was attached. My biiological son that is not a P has chosen not to have children because of the high number of Ps in our family, and if and when my adopted son has children I figure we have a good chance on that score, some Ps back a ways, but I guarentee he will NOT marry or sire children with a Psychopath! He can spot a red flag a mile away now! LOL He RUNS the other way at record setting speeds! LOL
TB, Milo, Gem, Rosa and others who have children and grandchildren all tangeled up in these psychopathic webs, I feel for you, I know it must be horribly painful and no “one right answer” no “one size fits all” and more like ANYSIZE FITS NO ONE! (((Hugs)))) and my prayers for you guys.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 7:50pm
frontporchtalker says:
wow, Psyche. I really love your cupcake trick!
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 8:13pm
geminigirl says:
Dearest TB I have to agree with Oxy, yes, ts horribly painful, but Ive had to do what she did, ie, divorce both my adult girls.
I have now got to the stage the stress is off the charts if I get to see my daughter again,a she will NEVER apologise for all the mean hurtful things she has done to me, and even if she did apologise, it would only be to keep me as a sourse of supply,{ie cash, food vouchers and goods, for her.} I have seen my GKDs fairly regularly up to the age of the youngest being 8 years old,-last April, when I sww her last, and I have to say, Ive seen the best of them. Holly is 15 now, Fin is 12, they have les and less time now for Grandma anyway. My daughter did the same as TB kept all the kids at arms length so I could never really bond with them. In a way this has been a blessing to me, as I dont crave to see them too much. Also, now that my SIL[they are still not divorced after 4 years]has FT custody of all 3 kids, he drives a long way evry weekend to see his girlfriend, and my spath daughter babysits her own kids at weekends. Which effectively means I cant see them, as Ive been totally NC with her for one year.If I rang her up and asked to see hte kids, shed think shed won, and I wont do this,ever.At least mySIL posts recent pics of the GKs on his Facebook page , so thats something, actually he did a recent album for me of the kids and labelled it,”For Maia”, So he has some feelings for me, and my situation, but lets face it, getting laid at the wekend is anicer option for him than visiting Grandma!Sometimes we just have to do what we have to to survive. Love, Mama Gem.XX
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 8:23pm
frontporchtalker says:
Dear TB,
After reading your story, TB, I am wondering if SP’s are born that way, or do they have a personality disorder that is developmental? ie. the theory is that people with PD’s had some kind of trauma before the age of 3, and never developed a full personality.
I ask that question because it would determine how I would deal with your situation. Either way, there is nothing you can do to change her.
I remember babysitting for a 3 yr old boy one time, who I swear was spawned by the devil.
Best to you,
FPT
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 8:52pm
Twice Betrayed says:
FPT: You know, I am torn on the answer to your question. But, I am going to answer it from the point of my hands on experience with 3 children by 2 P husbands. Two are by my first husband and 1 by my second. I dedicated my life to all three and they had a great home, love, full parental support from me. First two raised w/o P husband even in picture. Second one with husband always in picture. All 3 were great young kids. Two were great teens. All three show some degree of P now, as adults. All are highly intelligent, well liked, well educated, successful, productive citizens. However out of that realm, they are train wrecks emotionally and cruel beyond. Power mad to the max! So for me, my answer is: born that way-genetically wired P. I have often said scratch yourself and touch a drop of P blood and you will be psycho in 24 hours yourself. Just a little dark humor on my part, but it does seem that way. From my experience-genetics wins.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 9:40pm
Twice Betrayed says:
And you know, I was born into a highly successful family that was well respected but dysfunctional inside. I suffered great abuse emotionally and physically by my grown older brother and I am not P. However, having to ‘handle’ a person like my brother as a child did leave me vulnerable to hooking up with P husbands. I can hear/see my little 3 year old GD already wise enough to manage her P mother. It just breaks my heart to watch her have to dance the P dance at 3 years old, already skilled verbally/emotionally at defusing this ticking bomb known as her mother.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 9:46pm
frontporchtalker says:
Dear TB,
I’ve been pondering your situation for a while. I think all the above have the wisest answers to an unbearable situation.
Try to think: what would be best for you GD? Would she feel scared of her own mother? No doubt, but she wouldn’t be able to voice that fear, maybe.
Your job would be–as the wise folks said—to make it seem like your GD is just coming to your house for a visit, while your daughter “takes a little break.”
The way it is, you have to also take care of the mother’s ego in order to protect your GD’s life.
A vacation sounds better that Child Protective Services, just for now I mean. After you get your GD stabilized with you, THEN I’d call CPS.
Twenty years ago, I used to be a social worker. I worked with trauma and child abuse victims.
The tricky part is: to not to ADD to the child’s trauma of her crazy mother, which is already that kid’s burden. But at the same time, protect that child.
It’s like having a rabid dog walking towards some kids. (To Kill a Mockingbird) You want to keep the kids calm so you can deal with the danger.
FPT
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 10:09pm
frontporchtalker says:
I also like all the wise advice about “drop-kicking” SP’s out of your life. That is what I am doing now, out of necessity…and life force.
For me, now, it is a matter of survival: them or me.
It’s as though we who have been drop-kicked, blenderized, and nearly killed by P’s are part of a special club, here at LF.
I feel life more poignantly now. I am making my own life a priority, now.
I would rather be alone for the rest of my life than have to go through the experience of having (several) SP’s in my life, sucking my life away, like ELECTROLUX VACUUM CLEANERS, ala’ SP!
I say: Just change the bag and get on with our lives!
ha, ha.
FPT
wow! did I just say all that? I almost feel brave enough to tell the rest of my story when I get this mad.
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Thursday, 17 June 2010 @ 10:26pm
Match1zSkill says:
Hey Guys!!! I joined because I am scarred as hell. Dont know what to do or look for. I am dating a young lady Rose.. her sister warns me literally everyday that she is a social path. She gives me names of people and what she did. I bring them up to Rose and she says that they are completely untrue. She has admitted to having a few guys in her life. No biggie right? Then I talk to there mother who I am close with also. I take her home to pick up some clothes and me and her mother talk and she tells me I need to watch out for her daughter. I am about to leave then mom approached Rose about what she has done to guys. They get into it >> ( fast forward ). As I am about to leave Roses mom starts crying and is telling me that she is a bad person. Roses sister and I are best friends. Have been for years.. Any traits or experiences you guys can fill my in on that I can look out for so I don’t f*ck myself over.
Thanks Guys
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Tuesday, 29 June 2010 @ 2:54pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Match1,
Welcome to Love fraud. I STRONGLY SUGGEST though that you edit your post and remove your private e mail address.
As far as advice on Rose—–RUN RUN RUNNNNNNNNN away from this woman as fast as you can. If both her mother and her sister have warned you about her, what are you waiting for?
Good luck. Hang around here and read articles in the arichives and learn about psychopaths. God bless.
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Tuesday, 29 June 2010 @ 3:17pm
ErinBrock says:
Match1:
First….please delete your email…..go to the edit function and take it out. We can all respond to you here.
Second….I am going to assume you have read all of the comments from survivors who have debated about warning….to warn or not to warn…..and how the ‘warning’ has been received.
Okay…..so mom and sister have given you info……WHAT ARE YOU STILL DOING STICKING AROUND WITH THIS GIRL FOR???????
You said yourself….you don’t want to fuC& yourself over…..
Well……your gonna!
There is NOTHING you can do to change this girl, head off her behaviors or anything else you can do to avoid her wrath of hurt you have been warned about.
So again…..WHY ARE YOU STILL AROUND?
Her own mother and sister……HELLLLLLOOOOOOO.
They have given you a gift……if you choose to take it, you will do yourself great honor. If you return it to sender…..you;ll find out soon enough….the HARD way. ( and I assure you….when you have your ‘aha’ moment…you will wish you would have taken their gift)….
There are NO awards for being with a sociopath. Trust me…..only pain, destruction…..and the long process of healing and picking up the pieces.
Get out!
In the meantime…..stick around LF….and read our stories and the articles. It will give you good insight on what could be in your future.
Welcome to LF….I hope for you…..you can gain enough education to make the best decision for yourself.
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Tuesday, 29 June 2010 @ 3:21pm
Match1zSkill says:
ErinBrock,OxDrover – Thank you so much for your reply’s!! I have read all of the post when I found the site. The only thing I can relate to thus far is the animal like sex? I read all the tell signs and the one that I picked up on is that she is impulsive? She pays for her own stuff and does everything she can for me. So I am very confused they are telling me this but she is so nice its kinda hard to believe. I only know about one guy recently but she left him? The main reasons why her family warning me is because apparently she had sex with people when she was single when she did. Which to me is really not a big deal. Anything I need to look out for. Sorry if I sound completely stupid in the matter but I want to make sure I don’t lose a good thing.
M1zS
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Tuesday, 29 June 2010 @ 4:53pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
match – you say her sister is a friend of yours, and that you are close to her mom also. how long have you known these folks? do you know THIER reputations? If they have good reps and don’t exhibit signs of sociopathy themselves – then i would take the risk of ‘losing a good thing.’
you have to know – spaths can look like the BEST people to us – it’s called the ‘lovebomb.’
be careful.
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Tuesday, 29 June 2010 @ 4:59pm
Disgusted says:
Let me start out by explaining that I am a very easy going person and I hate confrontation. So, I guess I was a prime target for the psychopath where I worked. I had never been around anyone like her before.
The new Park Manager had no morals, so when SS was hired as an office clerk, she was comfortable in her new home. Prior to that time, she had worked at a prison and often talked about it as being a place she enjoyed working. The only thing she didn’t like was the structured environment. (I have often wondered if she willingly left that job.) Others told me, she had not been able to keep any other job.
SS started trying to manipulate me into letting her have her way soon after she was hired. She would tell me what a great job I did, even though it was obvious she had no knowledge of the type of work I did. She tried to convince me that we shared like interests and even went so far as to claim to know members of my family, my wife’s boss, and pretended to have had conversations with my wife. All were lies made without so much as blinking an eye.
When that didn’t get the results she wanted, she started flirting with me. She openly stated that her marriage meant nothing to her. She used her kids to talk about herself; it was never about them. When I tried to remind her she was married, she let me know that she was going to do what she wanted. She had no respect for anyone. She was very aggressive when it came to getting her way.
SS was an ugly woman, grossly overweight with no redeeming physical characteristics. She was jealous of anything that might take attention away from her. She disliked other women and tried to convince the men at work that she looked better than them. She even went so far as to run down a new born baby to us. Even though she had a huge flat butt, she wiggled it in front of me and tried to get me to compliment her. I didn’t. The worse she got, the more I tried to avoid her. Each time she pulled something, I would walk away and hope she got the hint that I wasn’t interested. She never did. As soon as I would get one thing stopped she would try something else.
It wasn’t long before she was trying to find ways to be alone with me. She tried to force her way into going with me (I was often in inaccessible areas of the Park.) I let her know I wasn’t going to take her with me, but that didn’t stop her from trying to get the manager to make me take her. I refused.
It wasn’t long before she started trying to corner me at the office and talk about sex. She would be talking about something innocent and suddenly tell me she was good in bed, or that she liked to look at men’s penis’s and watch them masturbate. She blatantly propositioned me on more than one occasion. Each time she would pull this, I would quit what I was doing and leave. I thought surely she would realize I wasn’t interested. But she never stopped. I started trying to completely avoid her.
No matter how many times I stopped her, Stephanie continued to get worse and worse. When it became impossible to corner me at the office, she started showing up where I was working and even at the shop during my lunch hour. She brought a meal for two and tried to get me to share it with her. I ignored her then eventually had to confront her and had to make her leave.
A week later, she overheard a conversation between the Park Manager and myself and thought she had found another way to be with me –I was able to stop her before she had a chance to further her agenda.
Even when I refused to speak to her, she pursued me. Eventually I had to confront her and tell her to leave me alone. I was very clear and laid out exactly what I wouldn’t allow. I told her any dealings she had with me were to be kept strictly professional. I tried to do it in a way that would cause the least amount of drama, and still get my point across. I explained that her actions were causing gossip and that I didn’t want my family embarrassed by the gossip. She told me she didn’t care how anything looked, what anyone thought, and that no one was going to tell her what to do. In fact, she continued to argue with me until I finally told her she was acting like a bitch in heat.
By the next day, she had twisted that conversation to mean that my wife was jealous of her and told my boss that my wife made me call her that. (Of course I didn’t know this until some months later when I got my personnel file. During the meeting she hinted I had problems at home, but there were no open accusation against my wife.) My boss said that my calling her a bitch in heat could be considered sexual harassment. I told him I hadn’t called her anything but said that was how she was acting towards me. It soon became obvious that she was trying to get me to back down from my stance. I didn’t.
After thinking about some of the things she had said during the meeting, I decided to confront her one final time the next day. I wanted it clear that I wasn’t going to put up with anything else from her. At the final meeting, she once again tried to get me to back down. First she told me that they had tried to get her to file a complaint against me, but she wouldn’t do it. Then she started talking about the divorce rate in prison, and how wives couldn’t deal with their husband’s work. At the time, I couldn’t fathom what she was talking about; I didn’t work in a prison. Then she asked if I was sure that was all I wanted between us? I told her that I meant what I said, any dealings with me were to be kept strictly professional. It wasn’t until much later, that I realized she was suggesting that I divorce my wife.
Once it finally became clear to SS that I had drawn the line and she wasn’t going to be able to manipulate me, she decided to get even with me. After 16 years of a perfect record I was fired. Even though I got my job back, I couldn’t stay there.
One more thing I need to add is that I wasn’t the only one she made sexual advances toward at the park. A few Park visitors said they would never be back because of her. I overheard her teasing one male employees about being a minuteman in bed, found notes to the manager telling him he was full of snot, but not in his nose, listened to complaints about her and another employee being locked in the office during office hours, and refusing to open the door, etc. It seems as if I was the only one to see through her, or at least the only one that objected to her actions.
I was raised to respect women and treat them like ladies. This one didn’t deserve it. I filed sexual harassment charges against her, but as far as I know, nothing was done. When I left the park, she didn’t stop. About a month later, we returned home from a weekend at our son’s to find a pair of her panties in our bedroom. Other things were done that left little doubt who had been there, but we asked around until we found someone who could give us a description of the persons entering our house. No one should have to put up with the unwanted and unsolicited advances that I had to put up with from this very sick individual.
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Thursday, 8 July 2010 @ 5:36pm
bluejay says:
Disgusted,
This woman is something else! What I question is why your empoyer would want to keep her around – she’s bad news. You have my sympathy – sociopaths know how to ruin your day. It’s unfortunate that decent, normal people get targeted by these creatures, making life difficult.
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Thursday, 8 July 2010 @ 6:57pm
Wini says:
Disgusted, you just described half the female work force where I was employed.
Thank God you got away from her clutches because, it’s all about her, her, her, her, her.
Oh, P.S. You never tell an ash hole, they are an ash hole. Why? Because they are an ash hole.
Peace.
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Thursday, 8 July 2010 @ 7:51pm
Disgusted says:
The boss saw nothing wrong with her actions. He often talked about his sister-in-law which was very much like her. when I said she had found her new home, I meant it. This was the perfect place for her to be able to do whatever she wanted… He turned a blind eye as long as she didn’t cause him problems. SS was quite good at reading others and knowing exactly how to work them to get her way. He adored SS and believed everything she said.
Before she was hired, he made it clear to everyone that there was only qualification – and that the woman hired be “wife safe” in looks. It didn’t matter to him if she could do the job, etc., as long as his wife didn’t consider her a threat, he was happy.
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Thursday, 8 July 2010 @ 8:05pm
Wini says:
Disgusted, you already figured out that everything that came out of her mouth was a lie, from hello to goodbye. She sounds like she is at least a classic phallic narcissistic personality. I suggest the next time you encounter an anti-social personality that wants to railroad you, keep a portable tape recorder in your pocket, snake the speaker up the sleeve of your jacket, with the microphone concealed but having access to the height of the person you are speaking with. Get the conversations recorded so that next time, you can prove that she’s a manipulating, lying, scheming, under handed worm of a person.
My hand held tape recorder was my best friend.
Peace.
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Thursday, 8 July 2010 @ 8:47pm
shabbychic says:
Now I’m disgusted! Good reasons to document everything and to let your manager know right away what’s going on. I’m so glad you got your job back!!! (even though not at same site) “wife safe” HA HA.
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Friday, 9 July 2010 @ 12:27am
Delta1 says:
To Twice Betrayed
I am a Child Protection social worker in the UK and can only speak from the perspective of that country of course. Also I don’t have all the information I would need to make a proper ‘professional assessment in any way. However, with that disclaimer, I am concerned enough to suggest as others have done that you should seriously consider calling Children’s Services in your area – you can do this anonymously (refuse to give names/identifying details) in the first instance to ‘take the temperature’ if you wish. Of course if the SW is doing their job they will pressure you very much to give identifying details (that’s what I’d do!!)
If your concern is your daughter taking your GD out to bars etc and GD’s hearing could be long-term damaged etc then this could be considered significant physical/emotional child abuse (depending entirely on whether your concerns can be independently evidenced somehow).
Any CP worker would also take into consideration frequency of visits to bars and other contextual information. In my own practice I find that I (and fellow SW’s) are not usually fooled by ‘nice houses – tidy, clean etc’ when it comes to this particular form of abuse – clearly having a tidy house is ‘nothing to do with it’.
If this were allocated to me I would likely insist on hearing tests for the child if the ‘basic facts’ i.e. the child is being regularly exposed to loud music could be established.
Please consider that if other abuse occurs (likely if your D is truely a P or S) and CS become involved anyway if someone else reports concerns – you would not want to be seen to have ‘protected’ your D over your GD by NOT reporting abuse.
The downside is that your daughter would likely unleash ‘war on you’ and probably stop access to GD if she can, though CS would try to prevent this in my experience. It is likely that stopping the relationship formerly enjoyed with your would be seen as further proof of emotionally abusive behaviour by your D to your GD.
No-one can make this crucial decision for you. And just because this is ‘my view’ I absolutely cannot say what another CP SW would say or see the situation – because I don’t have ‘all the facts’ of course.
Blessings
Delta 1
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Friday, 9 July 2010 @ 7:08am